1 500 52 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2606/LGBTQHistory.pdf e6aa18d0d9d47101f5ef25c079ca7830 PDF Text Text Roanoke Public Libraries Virginia Room LGBTQ History Collection Collection Description: Repository: Roanoke Public Libraries, Virginia Room Accession Number: 2015.12.8 Title: LGBTQ History Collection Physical Characteristics: 5 record storage boxes and 1 flat oversize storage box Donated by: Donors are indicated by the title of each series in the collection and are numbered in the order in which they were accessioned. Arrangement: This collection is divided into series by donor, with items in each series arranged alphabetically by document type or subject. Reproduction Restrictions: Collection is open to research. Virginia Room copy fees apply. Processor: Dyron Knick, 15 December 2015. Introduction: The Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center, and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Historical Note: It is generally acknowledged that the modern day LGBTQ civil rights movement began in New York City in June 1969 with the Stonewall Riots. Prior to and since this time, a number of activists, individuals, and organizations fought to bring recognition of LGBTQ civil rights to the forefront of American society. While the movement was primarily centered in New York City and San Francisco, periodicals, guide books, and ephemeral material interconnected the larger LGBTQ community throughout the United States, including the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. The first known organization, the Gay Alliance of the Roanoke Valley, was formed in 1971. During its short time, the Gay Alliance of the Roanoke Valley published a newsletter called the Big Lick Gayzette. Several years after the Alliance folded, a new organization, the Free Alliance for Individual Rights (FAIR), was formed in 1978. The formation of this organization was brought about as a result of police stings targeting gay men in Roanoke adult bookstores, the City Market, and Elmwood Park. FAIR also published a newsletter, The Virginia Gayzette, to present a balanced picture of the LGBTQ community as more than “deviants, perverts, and lawbreakers” and to keep the community informed. In the decades since, other organizations have formed, such as Roanoke Pride, PRISM Foundation, Roanoke Valley Chapter of Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG), and the Roanoke Diversity Center, to promote equal rights, offer support, and educate the general public on LGTBQ issues. �Scope and Content: ▪ The collection currently consists of 5 record storage boxes and 1 flat oversize storage box. Accruals are expected. ▪ This collection consists of a variety of materials, such as newsletters, news clippings, posters, flyers, correspondence, organizational records and reports. ▪ Most of the documents are standard 8 1/2 “x 11” paper, either in loose leaf form or as part of a compilation; exceptions include poster size marketing materials and news clippings. ▪ Materials range from 1971-2020 ▪ Some of the strengths of the collection include original issues of the Big Lick Gayzette, Virginia Gayzette, though complete runs of each publication are not included. A complete set of issues of the Blue Ridge Lamda Press (formerly Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance) is included. ▪ Records from the following LGBTQ organizations are included: Roanoke Chapter of PFLAG, which contain correspondence to and from the organization to individuals and organizations across the country; Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (later Roanoke Valley Gay & Lesbian Alliance); Virginia Gay Alliance, Roanoke Chapter; Virginia Gay Alliance, State Council; Positive Alternative Life Styles (PALS); Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance. ▪ News clippings and other ephemera also provide insights into the LGBTQ community through the years. ▪ Committee records regarding the planning and implementation of various LGBTQ events in the Roanoke Valley, including Pride in the Park. ▪ Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge newsletters from the 1990s. Container List: Box 1 Series I: Roanoke Diversity Center Folder 1: Correspondence – Rev. Dr. Mel White to Jerry Falwell, open letter with editorial. Folder 2: Flyers - Various RDC events, 2011 – 2015 Folder 3: Magazines – Informative Q, June 2014, August 2015, June/July 2016* issues Folder 4: News clippings – Articles on same-sex marriage in Virginia, taken from an easel display at RDC Folder 5: News clippings – Various articles related to local LGBTQ issues Folder 6: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, April 2002 – July 2004 (complete)* *Issues were removed from this series to be incorporated with Series III to keep issues of publication together. Folder 7: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, September 2004 – October 2006 (missing December 2006)* �*Issues were removed from this series to be incorporated with Series III to keep issues of publication together. Folder 8: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 2007 – June 2008 (complete)* *Issues were removed from this series to be incorporated with Series III to keep issues of publication together. Folder 9: Newsletters – Roanoke Gayzette: Volume 2:2-4, October/November 2009 – February/March 2010; Volume 3:2 and 3:4-5, October/November 2010, February/March 2011 and April/May 2011; Volume 4: 1-3, August/September 2011-November/December 2011; Volume 6:5, September/October 2013.* *See note with Series VIII Further RDC materials located in Boxes 4 and 5 Folders 10-29 contain Organizational information for the Roanoke Valley Chapter of PFLAG, donated by the Roanoke Diversity Center _______________________________________________________________________ Folder 10: By-laws Folder 11: Correspondence between Walter Blouch & Rev. Dr. Mel White regarding White’s documentary, “The Verdict Is In” Folder 12: Correspondence, incoming from other organizations/individuals Folder 13: Correspondence, incoming correspondence from PFLAG Folder 14: Correspondence, internal Folder 15: Correspondence, outgoing Folder 16: Correspondence regarding PBS film, “In The Life” Folder 17: Financials - Annual Reports, 1995-1999 and Statement of Financial Standing, 1998 Folder 18: Financials – General Ledger Account, October 1995 - September 1999 Folder 19: Financials – Membership dues paid, December 1995 – August 1999 Folder 20: Financials – Proposed Annual Budget, 1995-1999 Folder 21: Financials – Receipts and checkbook register Folder 22: Financials - Treasurer’s Reports, 1995 – September 1999 Folder 23: Meeting minutes, Executive Committee, August 1997 – May 1999 Folder 24: Mid-Atlantic Conference materials, 30 April – 1 May 1999 Folder 25: Miscellaneous, including flyers and newsletters Folder 26: Newsletters – September/October 1995 – July/August 1999, Volume 3:5 – Volume 7:4 (missing Volume 4:4) Folder 27: Scholarship Fund documents, 1998 Folder 28: Scholarship Fund documents, 1999 Folder 29: Survey Results __________________________________________________________________ �Folder 30: Reports – “Comprehensive Study with Recommendations for Adding Non-Discrimination Protection Based on Sexual Orientation at the Local Level in the Commonwealth of Virginia, Amending the City of Lynchburg’s Code of Ordinances, Employee Handbook and Creating a Human Rights Commission” Oversize Box 6 Folder 1: Posters Series II: Erika Joyner Folder 31: Flyer advertising transgender conference in Roanoke, 26 September 2015 and blank transgender census form; business card from Guerilla Gay Bar. Oversize Box 6 Folder 2: Poster – Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge Transgender Census Series III: Edward F. “Gerry” Jennings, Jr. Box 1 Folder 32: Alliance of Lesbian and Gay Organizations of Western Virginia – miscellaneous materials Folder 33: Bibliography of LGBTQ History resources at the Brown Library, Virginia Western Community College. Folder 34: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Correspondence, 1981-1995 (incomplete) Folder 35: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – General Information Folder 36: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Helpline Folder 37: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Minutes, July 1981 – November 1981 Folder 38: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Publicity Folder 39: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Surveys: Statewide Candidates, 1981 Folder 40: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Surveys: Candidates for Congress/Senate, 1982-1983; Includes surveys from the Virginia Gay Alliance Folder 41: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Surveys: Candidates for Congress/Senate, 1982 Folder 42: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Surveys: Candidates for Roanoke City Council, 1982 Folder 43: Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance – Surveys: Candidates for Roanoke City Council, 1984 Folder 44: Brochures – Religion and LGBTQ Folder 45: Charter – unidentified gay organization, undated (3 copies) Folder 46: Committee for Lesbian and Gay Concerns – Miscellanous Folder 47: Correspondence – Miscellaneous Folder 48: Directories – LGBTQ Resources Folder 49: Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) – Miscellaneous Folder 50: Events – Blue Ridge Mountain Classic Bowling Folder 51: Events – First Friday �Folder 52: Events – InJoy: A Lesbian and Gay Community Outreach Series Folder 53: Events – In Touch Folder 54: Events – March on Washington, 1987 Folder 55: Events – March on Washington, 1993 Folder 56: Events – North Carolina Gay & Lesbian Conference, 1983 Folder 57: Events – Pride in the Park: Auctions, IV-VII Folder 58: Events – Pride in the Park V, 1994 Folder 59: Events – Pride in the Park VI, 1995 Folder 60: Events – Pride in the Park VII, 1996 Folder 61: Events – Pride in the Park VIII, 1997 Folder 62: Events – Unitarian Universalism, Thomas Jefferson District 3rd Annual Welcoming Congregation Conference, September 1993 Folder 63: Gay Rap Group Folder 64: LGBTQ Organizations – Miscellaneous Folder 65: LGBTQ Youth – Miscellaneous Folder 66: Miscellaneous – LGBTQ Issues Folder 67: National Gay Task Force (NGTF) – Brochures Folder 68: National Gay & Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF) – Meetings with Sue Hyde Folder 69: News Clippings – 1981-1984 Folder 70: News Clippings – 1985 Box 2 Series III: Edward F. “Gerry” Jennings, Jr. Folder 1: News Clippings – 1986 Folder 2: News Clippings – 1987 Folder 3: News Clippings – 1988-1989 Folder 4: News Clippings – 1990 Folder 5: News Clippings – 1991 Folder 6: News Clippings – 1992 Folder 7: News Clippings – 1993 Folder 8: News Clippings – 1994 Folder 9: News Clippings – 1995 Folder 10: News Clippings – 1996 Folder 11: News Clippings – 1997 Folder 12: News Clippings – Miscellaneous Folder 13: News Clippings – Nightline, town hall meeting in Roanoke, 24 May 2002; flyer from event Folder 14: Newsletters – Big Lick Gayzette, 10 September 1971 – 3 December 1971, Volumes 1:1 – 1:7 Folder 15: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance (later Blue Ridge Lambda Press), September 1981-August 1982 Folder 16: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, April 1983-December 1984 (complete) �Folder 17: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 1985-December 1988 (complete) Folder 18: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 1989-December 1991 (complete) Folder 19: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 1992-November 1994 (complete) Folder 20: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 1995-April 1996; June 1997-December 1999 Folder 21: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 2000-February 2001; July 2001-November 2003* *April 2002-November 2003 issues were donated with Series I Folder 22: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, December 2003-December 2006* (complete) *December 2003-July 2004 issues were donated with Series I Folder 23: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Lambda Press, January 2007-June 2008 (complete)* *Issues were donated with Series I Folder 24: Newsletters – Miscellaneous Folder 25: Newsletters – Our Own Community Press, October 1983 Folder 26: Newsletters – Positive Alternative Life Styles (PALS), July 1980March 1983 Folder 27: Newsletters - Virginia Gayzette, 20 December 1971 – 5 April 1972, Volumes 1:1, 2:1-2:7; and February – April 1978, Volumes 3:2 – 3:4 Folder 28: Newsletters - Virginia Gayzette, original mock-up of 5 March 1978 issue Folder 29: Photographs – “Gay Billboard”, ca. 1985, 1 photographic print, 6 negative strips Folder 30: Political Campaigns – United States Senate Race, Virginia candidate information, 1994 Folder 31: Roanoke Gay & Lesbian Activities (GALA) – Events Folder 32: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) – Minutes with associated documents, August 1988-February 1991 Folder 33: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) – Minutes with associated documents, March 1991-August 1992 Folder 34: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) - Surveys: Candidates, Roanoke City Council, 1990 Folder 35: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) – Surveys: Candidates, Roanoke City Council 1992 Folder 36: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) – Surveys: Candidates, Roanoke City Council 1994 Folder 37: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) – Surveys: Candidates, General Assembly, 1995 Folder 38: Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (RVGA) – Surveys: Candidates, Roanoke City Council, 1996 Folder 39: Roanoke Valley Gay & Lesbian Alliance (RVGLA) – Ad campaign, 1988 �Folder 40: Roanoke Valley Gay & Lesbian Alliance (RVGLA) – By-laws Folder 41: Roanoke Valley Gay & Lesbian Alliance (RVGLA) – Minutes/Agendas, Board of Directors, April 1993-April 1996 Folder 42: Roanoke Valley Gay & Lesbian Alliance – Miscellaneous Folder 43: Virginia Coalition for Gay & Lesbian Rights – Miscellaneous Folder 44: Virginia Gay Alliance, Roanoke Chapter – By-laws Folder 45: Virginia Gay Alliance, Roanoke Chapter – Ephemera Box 3 Series III: Edward F. “Gerry” Jennings, Jr. Folder 1: Virginia Gay Alliance, Roanoke Chapter – Minutes/Correspondence, ca. 1982-1983 Folder 2: Virginia Gay Alliance, Roanoke Chapter – Minutes/Correspondence, 1984 Folder 3: Virginia Gay Alliance, Roanoke Chapter – Minutes/Correspondence, 1985-1986 Folder 4: Virginia Gay Alliance, State Council – Minutes and associated documents, November 1982-November 1984 Folder 5: Virginia Gay Alliance, State Council – Minutes and Associated documents, January 1985-May 1986 Oversize Box 6 Folder 3: News clippings – 3 laminated articles from the Roanoke Times Series IV: Deanna Marcin Box 3 Folder 6: Items related to 10th Anniversary of shootings at Backstreet Café – news clipping, flyer and program, September 2010 Oversize Box 6 Folder 4: Posters: -Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge Transgender Conference, 26 September 2015 -Project Visibility Transgender Social Masquerade, 22 February ???? -Project Visibility Banner Series V: Rosemary Wyman Box 3 Folder 7: “Save the Date” card from the marriage of Ernesto Rodriguez and Max Charnley, 2016. Series VI: Virginia Irene Lindsey Folder 8: Photograph – Pride in the Park, 2012. �Series VII: Trish Valentine Folder 9: Photograph and essay – “Defining Transgender” by Trish Valentine, 20 September 2009. Also included: resources related to understanding the Transgender Community. Series VIII: Anonymous Folder 10: Magazine – Unite Virginia: Volumes 1 and 2, Holiday 2015 and Winter 2016. Folder 11: Photographs – Four photographs of Roanoke Pride committee members, 2009; Four photographs of Thursday Night Drag Show at Backstreet Café, 2009. *Please note that newsletters (Roanoke Gayzette, Volume 2:2-4, October/November 2009 – February/March 2010; Volume 3:2 and 3:45, October/November 2010; February/March 2011 and April/May 2011; Volume 4: 1-2, August/September 2011 and October 2011; Volume 6:5, September/October 2013) and (Informative Q, June/July 2016) donated with this series can be found in Series I. Series IX: Olivia Streett Folder 12: General Admission ticket to Pride in the Park, 12 September 2015. Series X: The Park Folder 13: Magnets, Charlie Brown, three signed, undated Backstage Passes to Miss Gay East Coast America (2), undated. Folder 14: Membership Cards to the Park, 1993, 2000 and 2001 Matchbooks – The Park (2). Folder 15: Postcards: Jessica Jade, Miss Gay East Coast, 2013 – 2 cards Roanoke Pride Festival 25, 6-7 September 2014. Series XI: Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Folder 16: Agendas – History Project meetings, October 2015 through February 2017 Folder 17: Correspondence – drafts of acknowledgment letters sent to donors of the project. Folder 18: Documents related to the Project’s Oral History Initiative Folder 19: Documents related to the Project’s walking tour and bar crawl �Folder 20: Drafts of event pages for the archival collection Folder 21: Ephemera - Items from other organizations collected by the History Project Folder 22: Magazines – Prism Foundation Magazine, September 2015 Folder 23: News clippings Folder 24: Signs – History Project meetings 2017.05.11 Addendum Folder 62: Button – Lambda button from the Gay Alliance of the Roanoke Valley, circa 1971 Folder 63: Documents related to other initiatives of Project Folder 64: Ephemera – Roanoke Diversity Center programs and events Folder 65: Script for play, “Coming Out, Coming Home” 2017.09.06 Addendum Folder 66: Zine – Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, Issue 1, Summer 2017 - present Folder 67: Button – Lambda Designs, 1988 Oversize Box 6 Folder 7: Posters, Roanoke Diversity Center Winter Fête, December 2015; Roanoke Diversity Center Winter Fête: Fire and Ice, December 2016; Tablature notes/brainstorming from meetings. Folder 8: Posters – miscellaneous; mock-up of historical marker for the Trade Winds 2022.01.11 Addendum Box 5 Folder 5: Agendas – History Project meetings, December 2017 through July 2020 Folder 6: Brochures, Flyers, Posters Folder 7: Button – World Aids Day, Roanoke, Virginia Folder 8: Documents related to Project’s collaboration with other organizations and initiatives Folder 9: Posters – Exhibit, “The Park at 40: 1978-2018” *Please note that two issues of Informative Q Magazine (October 2015 and February/March 2016 were donated by the History Project and are included with previously donated issues in Series I. 2025.05.03 Addendum Folder 12: Agendas – History Project meetings, March 2017 through November 2017; January 2022 through February 2024 Folder 13: Awards presented to SWVA LGBTQ History Project Folder 14: Correspondence Folder 15: Events – Diversity Camp Workshop, 2019 Folder 16: Exhibits – Finding Each Other: Gay & Lesbian Community Organizing in Southwest Virginia, 1980-1985 Folder 17: News clippings Folder 18: Posters – miscellaneous posters, flyers, and ephemera Folder 19: Proposal – Art in Roanoke in Elmwood Park �Folder 20: Sermon – “Developing Our Queer History” by Dr. G. Samantha Rosenthal, November 6, 2016, Unitarian Universalist Church, Roanoke. Folder 21: Visual Aids – walking tours and exhibits Folder 22: Workshop – “Living Trans History” Series XII: Michael Blankenship Box 3 Folder 25: Flyers – Miscellaneous Folder 26: Miscellaneous documents Folder 27: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Banner: June 1990-December 1991, Issues 1-19 (complete); Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge Folder 28: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Banner: January 1992-December 1993, Issues 20-43 (complete); Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge Folder 29: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Banner: January 1994-August 1995, Issues 44-63 (missing: 48, 55, 56, 60, and 61); Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge Folder 30: Newsletters – Blue Ridge Messenger*: August 1997-November 1998 (incomplete); Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge *Messenger superseded the Blue Ridge Banner. Folder 31: Programs – Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge: various services, 1990-1999 Series XIII: Rev. Catherine Houchins Folder 32: News clippings – Backstreet Café Shootings: Album 1 Folder 33: News clippings – Backstreet Café Shootings: Album 2 Folder 34: News clippings – Backstreet Café Shootings*: Album 3 *contains several articles not related to shootings Series XIV: Mary Boenke Folder 35: Booklet: “Our Trans Children”, 4th ed. A publication of PFLAG Series XV: Dan Jones, Jim Ricketson Memorial Library Folder 36: Administrative Records – Acquisitions Folder 37: Administrative Records – Correspondence, March 2001-December 2003 Folder 38: Administrative Records – Minutes and Agendas: Board, 24 January 2001 – 12 December 2002 Folder 39: Administrative Records – policies and procedures Folder 40: Brochures, flyers, handouts Folder 41: Financial Records – Accounting reports, 2002-2003 �Folder 42: Financial Records – Bank Statements, deposit slips, cancelled checks, 2001-2006 Folder 43: Financial Records – Billing statements Folder 44: Financial Records – Receipts, book sales Folder 45: Financial Records – Receipts, miscellaneous Folder 46: Guest book and volunteer badge Folder 47: News clippings Folder 48: Newsletters, November 2001-July 2002 Folder 49: Obituary – Ed B. Harris, Jr. Folder 50: Photographs – Jim Ricketson Folder 51: Photographs – Jim Ricketson Memorial Library Folder 52: Photographs – Jim Ricketson Memorial Library, 2 copies on disc Folder 53: Programs and supporting members Folder 54: Website – Printouts of webletters, 2000-2001 Oversize Box 6 Folder 5: Photographs and poster – 2 copies of photograph of Ed Harris working in the Ricketson Library taken by the Roanoke Times staff; 1 library poster soliciting support/membership. Series XVI: Samantha Rosenthal, Jim Ricketson Memorial Library Box 3 Folder 55: Administrative Records – Overdue materials procedural documents Folder 56: Brochures, flyers, bookmarks Folder 57: Catalog of holdings Folder 58: Signage 2017.09.06 Addendum Folder 68: Administrative Records – Policies and Procedures, 2001 Folder 69: Financial Records – Income and Expenses, January-October 2001 Series XVII: Dan Jones Box 3 Folder 59: Gay Alliance of Roanoke – Statement of Policy and Constitution and By-Laws Folder 60: Magazine: Roanoker, “The Gay Life in Roanoke”, Holiday Issue, 1977; “Backstreet to Center Stage”, October 2001 Folder 61: Magazine: Washington Post Magazine, “Their Town: A Gay Community’s Search for Acceptance in a Small Southern City”, February 2001. Oversize Box 6 Folder 6: Poster – Roanoke Pride Pageant, 2002 Series XVIII: Sherman Bamford �Oversize Box 6 Folder 6: Newsletter: New River Free Press, Volume 8:3, April/May 1990; Volume 15:4, May/June 1997; Volume 17:6, July-September 1999; Volume 18:8, October/November 2000; Volume 21:7, October/November 2003; Volume 22:3,4,6 May/June 2004, June/July 2004, September/October 2004; Volume 23:1&9, March/April 2005, December 2005/January 2006; Volume 24:2&3, April/May 2006, May/June 2006; Volume 25:5, July-September 2007 Series XVIX: Richard Ward, III Box 3 Alliance of Lesbian & Gay Organizations Folder 70: Organizations – Meeting minutes and related materials, AprilDecember 1990 Folder 71: Organizations – Meeting minutes and related materials, JanuaryDecember 1991 Folder 72: Organizations – Meeting minutes and related materials, JanuaryDecember 1992 Folder 73: Organizations – Meeting minutes and related materials, JanuaryDecember 1993 Folder 74: Organizations – Meeting minutes and related materials, February 1994 Series XX: Carolyn Sue Wilson Folder 75: Photograph – Carolyn Sue Wilson, 1997. color Series XXI: Riley Chattin Folder 76: Pamphlets and Ephemera – “Bending the Mold: An Action Kit for Transgender Youth”; “Surviving Militarism, Racism, and Repression: An Emergency Preparedness Kit for LGBTQ Youth”; three buttons promoting LGBTQ causes, 2 LGBTQ stickers. Series I: Roanoke Diversity Center – 2020.06.25 Addendum Box 4 Folder 1: Administrative Records – Board dues monthly reports, 2011-2016 Folder 2: Administrative Records – By-laws, history Folder 3: Administrative Records – Drop-In Center collaboration materials Folder 4: Administrative Records – Fiscal sponsorship materials Folder 5: Administrative Records – Fundraising/Grants Folder 6: Administrative Records – Informative Q Magazine materials Folder 7: Administrative Records – Internships/volunteer opportunities Folder 8: Administrative Records – Marketing and public relations materials Folder 9: Administrative Records – Meeting minutes, 2011 Folder 10: Administrative Records – Meeting minutes, 2012 �Folder 11: Administrative Records – Meeting minutes, 2013 Folder 12: Administrative Records – Meeting minutes, 2014 Folder 13: Administrative Records – Meeting minutes, 2015 Folder 14: Administrative Records – Meeting minutes, 2016 Folder 15: Administrative Records – Relocation plans Folder 16: Administrative Records – Strategic plans Folder 17: Administrative Records – Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project materials Folder 18: Events – January-June 2012 Folder 19: Events – July-December 2012 Folder 20: Events – January-June 2013 Folder 21: Events – July-December 2013 Folder 22: Events – January-June 2014 Folder 23: Events – July-December 2014 Folder 24: Events – January-June 2015 Folder 25: Events – July-December 2015 Folder 26: Events –Create-a-thon Folder 27: Events – Film programming Folder 28: Events – Flyers, programs, brochures Folder 29: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, May 2015 Folder 30: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, June 2015 Folder 31: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, July 2015 Folder 32: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, August 2015 Folder 33: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, September 2015 Folder 34: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, October 2015 Folder 35: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, November 2015 Folder 36: Events – Out, Proud, Aware, December 2015 Folder 37: Events – Radio Free Roanoke Folder 38: Events – Roanoke Pride Folder 39: Events – Senior programming Folder 40: Events – Youth initiative meeting Folder 41: Financial Records – 2012 Folder 42: Financial Records – 2013 Folder 43: Financial Records – 2014 Folder 44: Financial Records – 2015 Folder 45: Financial Records – January 2016-July 2017 Folder 46: Financial Records – Donations Folder 47: Financial Records – Expenses Folder 48: Financial Records – Receipts/invoices, general Folder 49: Financial Records – Receipts/invoices, Fete 2016 Folder 50: Financial Records – Statements, BNC, 2015-2016 Folder 51: Financial Records – Statements, PayPal, 2016 Box 5 Folder 1: Financial Records – Statements, Valley Bank, 2012-2015 Folder 2: Memberships – CenterLink �Folder 3: Outreach – Surveys Folder 4: Photographs – Diversity Camp, 2 group photos, 2014 and undated Series XXII: William F. Billingsley, III Folder 5: Postcard – Downtowner Motor Inns Series XXIII: Blue Ridge Society Folder 11: Webpages produced by the Blue Ridge Society, circa 2002-2005 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2606/LGBTQOralHistoriesSubjectIndexV-11.pdf 8736d76b3be2aaba360cf239959adaec PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Subject Index v.11 May 2022 How to use this index Each subject is followed by a list of abbreviations. These abbreviations refer to individual oral history narrators. All oral history recordings and transcripts are in the LGBTQ History Collection, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries. Abbreviations A = Anonymous AB = Anton Black AR = Ashley Rhame BM = Barbara Maberry CL = Catina Lowery CSW = Carolyn Sue Wilson DJ = Daniel Jones DM = Don Muse DS = Daddy Sam EJ = Erika Joyner EW = Edna Whittier GB = Gail Burress GG = Garland Gravely GJ = Gerry Jennings GSR = Gregory Samantha Rosenthal JB = James Ernest Best, Jr. JC = Joe Cobb KLB = Kathryn L. Beranich KO = Kim O’Donnell L = Liza LB = Larry Bly LF = Larry Forrest LC = Linny Caldwell LS = L Saunders M = Martha MB = Mary Boenke MB2 = Michelle Bennett MB3 = Michael Blankenship MGK = Miss Grace Kelly MSR = Myer S. Reed NK = Nancy Kelly NP = Nathaniel Preston P = Price 1 �PS = Peggy Shifflett PT = Peter Thornhill R = Rissa RC = Riley Chattin RCH = Rev. Catherine Houchins RD = Ronald “Ron” Davidson RJ = Robin Jordan RS = Rodger Saunders RW = Rosemary Wyman SR = Shamaill Ross SS = Sally Seagraves TF = Tommy Feazell TJ = Toya Jones TV = Trish Valentine VL = Virginia Irene Lindsey WC = Whitney B. Conley YCS = Yodie Cleveland Swain Table of Contents 1. Organizations a. LGBTQ organizations in Southwest Virginia b. LGBTQ organizations outside of Southwest Virginia c. Other organizations in Southwest Virginia 2. Places a. Queer bars, clubs, and restaurants in Southwest Virginia b. Queer bars, clubs, and restaurants outside of Southwest Virginia c. Queer spaces, neighborhoods, and communities in Southwest Virginia d. Queer spaces, neighborhoods, and communities outside of Southwest Virginia e. Other places/spaces in Southwest Virginia f. Other places/spaces outside of Southwest Virginia 3. Media a. LGBTQ publications in Southwest Virginia b. LGBTQ publications outside of Southwest Virginia c. Other media in Southwest Virginia d. Television & Film e. Miscellaneous (music, poetry, radio, theater, et cetera) 4. Education & Work a. Schools, colleges, and universities in Southwest Virginia b. Schools, colleges, and universities outside of Southwest Virginia c. Issues for LGBTQ students, faculty, and staff d. Areas of study & research e. Occupations 5. Religion 2 �a. Religious organizations in Southwest Virginia b. Religious organizations outside of Southwest Virginia c. Religious publications and media d. General issues in religion 6. Government a. Electoral politics b. Crime, policing, and the judicial system c. United States Armed Forces d. Government institutions, legislation, and policy 7. Social Movements a. National LGBTQ movements, events, and people b. Other social movements, issues, and national events 8. Health / Medical a. HIV / AIDS b. Other health issues and conditions 9. Culture a. Pride Festivals, Parades b. Sports / Athletics c. Drag Performance & Pageantry d. Miscellaneous LGBTQ culture 10. Relationships & Encounters a. Romantic and sexual relationships b. Relationships with family members c. Relationships within the LGBTQ community d. Relationships with straight / cisgender communities 11. Identity a. Race b. Gender c. Sexuality Subject Index 1. Organizations A. LGBTQ organizations in Southwest Virginia – in approximate chronological order Gay Alliance of the Roanoke Valley (GARV) (1971 – 1972) – GJ; DJ; - Daniel Jones – TF; Free Alliance for Individual Rights (FAIR) (1977-1978, Roanoke) – DJ; Positive Alternative Lifestyles (PALS) (1980 – 1983, Lynchburg) – GJ; TF; Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance (c. 1981 – 1986, Lynchburg) – GJ; PT; TF; - Jennings, Gerry – PS; MSR; TF; Dignity-Integrity group (Catholic/Episcopalian gay support group in Roanoke) (early 1980s) – GJ; 3 �The Gay Rap Group (gay support group in Roanoke) (early-1980s) – GJ; TF; - At the Madonna House – TF; First Friday (lesbian organization in Roanoke) (1980 – early 1990s) – GJ; PS; LC; KLB; NK; GB; - The Fabulous February Fling (annual dress ball) – KLB; GB; - Documentary film about (see The Unlikely Story of the Lesbians of First Friday; 2019) – KLB; GB; - First Friday reunions (2018; 2019) – GB; Roanoke Valley Women’s Retreat (held annually 1981 – late 1980s) – PS; KLB; NK; GB; - at Camp Carysbrook – GB - at Camp Rim Rod (near Clifton Forge?) – GB - conflict over presence of children at the retreats – GB The Bowties (drag performance group at The Park in the 1980s) – CSW; The Centurions (a leather social club in Roanoke) (1980s) – DS; The Rogues Levi/Leather Club (Roanoke) (1980s?) – DS; TF; - Lee Cruise – TF; Roanoke AIDS Project (c. late 1980s – 1990s) – GJ; MB3; TF; Friendship Bowling League (gay and lesbian bowling organization) – TF; Various AIDS support groups (in Roanoke) – GB; MSR; Roanoke Valley Gay and Lesbian Alliance (1980s) – GJ; Gay Supper Club (Roanoke; late 1980s-early 1990s) – MSR; Alliance of Lesbian and Gay Organizations (ALGO) (late 1980s – early 1990s, Roanoke) – GJ; - ALGO Service Award – GJ; - Garrison, Sam – GJ; MB; RCH; MSR; Lesbian educational group (name unknown, c. 1989-1991 in Roanoke) – PS; Blue Ridge AIDS Support Services (BRASS) (early 1990s – mid-2000s) – LB; Western Virginia AIDS Council (1990s?) – BM; Sisters in the Name of Love (Drag queen-led AIDS support organization; 1990s?) – BM; MGK; - AIDS benefit shows – MGK; Roanoke PFLAG (c. 1992 – 2004/2005) – MB; BM; RJ; RC; MSR; - Mary Boenke – RCH; MSR; The Blue Ridge Society (early transgender support group in Roanoke) (1990s) – VL; OUTRight (youth group – late 1990s – 200s) – RC; Roanoke Pride (1997-present) – VL; BM; AB; LF; RCH; NP; GSR; divisions in the community between pro-Pride and anti-Pride – LF; Soulforce (Lynchburg) – RCH; - Mel White – RCH; Ricketson GLBT Memorial Library (Roanoke) (active 2000-2003) – MB; RCH; GSR; - Harris, Ed – MB; Interfaith Sexual Minorities (ISM; group in Roanoke; mid-2000s) – RCH; Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge (transgender support group in Roanoke) (mid-2000s – present) – TV; VL; EJ; P; Floyd PFLAG (c. 2008 – present) – RW; JB; KO; 4 �Roanoke Diversity Center (2013 – present) – RS; EJ; R; GG; MB2; LC; GB; RC; RCH; NP; CL; P; GSR; - Diversity Camp (2014-present) – RS; LC; - Frank House (co-founder) – GSR; - Rainbow Cinema (c. late 2010s) – RS; - Speaker’s Bureau – NP; PRISM Foundation (2014 – present) – BM; AB; - LGBTQ clothing closet project (c. 2018) – AB; Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project (2015 – present) – VL; WC; RJ; GB; RCH; SR; GSR; Lynchburg Diversity Center (c. late 2010s) – L; The House of Expression (2019-present) – SR; GSR; B. LGBTQ organizations outside of Southwest Virginia – in alphabetical order ACT-UP (AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power) – RCH; Affinity Community Services (Chicago) – CL; BAGLY (Boston Alliance of Gay and Lesbian Youth) – GG; Diversity Thrift (Richmond, VA) – NP; Equality Virginia (statewide LGBTQ advocacy organization) – JB; NP; - People of Faith for Equality in Virginia (subgroup) – JB; - Transgender Advocacy Speakers Bureau – NP; Gay Activists Alliance (1969 – 1970s, New York City) – DJ; - Morty Manford – DJ; - The “Zap” (direct action tactic) – DJ; Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce (Chicago) – CL; Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network (GLSEN) – RC; Gay Student Union (University of Virginia, Charlottesville) – GJ; M; RJ; Gay youth groups – GG; Highlander Center – LS; The History Project (Boston, Massachusetts) – GSR; Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – MB; NP; - Corporate Equality Index – NP; Kappa Beta (transgender support group in Charlotte, North Carolina, founded in 1988; now known as the Carolina Transgender Society) – TV; Lambda Legal – CL; - Racism within the organization – CL; - Workplace harassment – CL; Leather Archives & Museum (Chicago) – DS; Lesbian Herstory Archives (New York) – KLB; NK; - donation of materials by First Friday members – KLB; Lyon Street Women (lesbian women’s collective in Mount Pleasant, Michigan) (1970s) – EW Michigan Organization for Human Rights (founded in 1977) – EW; Out and Equal (conference) – SR; 5 �PFLAG (Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) – MB; - The Transgender Network (national group within PFLAG) – MB; o T-Net newsletter – MB; - T-Coords (Transgender Coordinators) – MB; - Positions on transgender issues – MB; Radical Faeries – LC; - Harry Hay – LC; Southern Comfort (annual transgender conference in Atlanta, Georgia) – TV; Tri-Ess (national heterosexual cross-dressing organization) – EJ; C. Other organizations in Southwest Virginia – in alphabetical order AmeriCorps – L; Boy Scouts – JB; Carilion (medical empire) – P; Council of Community Services (Roanoke) – LB; RJ; MGK; NP; - AIDS support services – MGK; - Relationship with the LGBT community – RJ; The Drop-In Center – BM; DM; RC; SR; Gay men’s support group – SR; Fashionista Roanoke – GG; First Fridays (downtown art night in Roanoke; not to be confused with the lesbian organization First Friday) – RS; Free Masons – NP; Girl Scouts – EW; RC; Housing Connections – CL; The Humble Hustle Co. (organization in Roanoke) – AR; Local Colors – NP; Norfolk & Southern Railroad company – MSR; Plenty! (grassroots food justice organization in Floyd, Virginia) – RW; The Red Hats (social group for older women) – TV; Rescue Mission (homeless services agency) – RC; Roanoke Fine Arts Council – RD; The Ruritan Club (Meadows of Dan, Virginia) – JB; Salem Museum & Historical Society – GB; SARA Roanoke (sexual assault response organization) – P; Shriners – NP; TAP (Total Action for Progress) – BM; Trust House / ARCH – BM; Women’s soccer league (Roanoke) (2011-present) – EW; Women’s Softball League (Salem, Virginia) (1970s/1980s) – PS; KLB; 6 �2. Places A. Queer bars, clubs, and restaurants in Southwest Virginia – in approximate chronological order Elmwood Diner (mid-1920s – early 1970s, restaurant, Roanoke) – DJ; CSW; The Coffeepot (1940s/1950s, lesbian hangout, Roanoke, Virginia) – PS; The Trade Winds (c. 1953 – early 1980s, bar, Roanoke) – GJ; LB; RD; PT; DJ; MGK; CSW; LF; MSR; MB3; TF; - “Zap” (protest) against Trade Winds (1971) – DJ; - gay owners – CSW; - drag shows and pageants there – CSW; - Bamboo Room (top floor drag performance venue) – MB3; - and Black clientele – CSW; o as racially integrated place in late 1970s / early 1980s – LF; The Last Straw (c. 1973 – 1993, bar, Roanoke) – GJ; RD; DS; PT; DJ; DM; MGK; LF; MSR; MB3; GSR; TF; The Horoscope (c. 1975 – 1978, dance club, Roanoke) – DJ; MGK; CSW; MSR; GSR; TF; - and Black clientele – CSW; Nite & Day (c. 1977 – 1979, restaurant, Roanoke) – RD; DJ; GSR; Lucky – GSR; Murphy’s (c. 1978 – 1979, dance club, Roanoke) – GJ; PT; DJ; MGK; CSW; MSR; MB3; GSR; TF; - Becoming a Black straight dance club afterward (maybe early 1980s?) – MB3; - Martin’s – GSR; Taylor House (late 1970s / early 1980s, lesbian hangout, Salem, Virginia) – KLB; NK; GB; The Park (1978 – present, dance club, Roanoke) - GJ; EW; RD; DS; WC; RS; VL; PT; DJ; BM; SS; PS; DM; GG; MB2; RJ; KLB; NK; A; MGK; AB; CSW; LF; YCS; GB; MSR; NP; MB3; SR; GSR; L; TF; – increased security following the Orlando massacre (2016) – DM; – Gay men’s opposition to drag queens during its early years – MGK; – Current hostile climate toward older, veteran drag queens – MGK; – straight people at The Park – NP; L; Backstreet Café (c. 1982 – 2017, bar, Roanoke) – GJ; EW; DS; RS; DJ; DM; GG; MB2; A; YCS; NP; GSR; - Backstreet Café shooting (2000) – EW; DS; WC; SS; DM; MB2; A; RC; RCH; JC; P; SR; LS; TF; o Annual vigils afterwards – JC; o Danny Overstreet – TF; o Hundreds march from Elmwood Park to Backstreet Café after the shooting (2000) – DS; o MCCBR response to Backstreet shooting – SS; RCH; o National media response – DM; TF; 7 �o Ronald Edward Gay – DS; A; TF; o Response from Westboro Baptist Church – DM; o Survivors’ suicides – TF; - The Front Row (2017 - ) – GSR; Hugo’s (mid-1980s) – GB; Macado’s (mid-1980s – present, restaurant, Church Avenue, Roanoke) / Cuba Pete’s – RD; WC; RS; GG; KLB; A; The Cornerstone (short-lived bar in Roanoke, mid-1980s) – KLB; The Alternative (c. 1990-1991, dance club, Roanoke) – BM; The Dutch Inn (Martinsville, VA; periodic drag show venue?) – NP; Morning Brew Coffee Company (2010s – present) – TJ; B. Queer bars, clubs, and restaurants outside of Southwest Virginia – in alphabetical order 216 (club in Charlottesville, Virginia) – MGK; Broadway Café (lesbian gathering spot in Richmond) – TF; Café Lafitte in Exile (New Orleans, LA) – MSR; The Cha Cha Club (gay bar in Richmond) – TF; Feldman’s (gay bar in Richmond, Virginia) – VL; The Friend’s Bar (Jacksonville, NC gay bar) – MB2; The Garden Lounge (early gay bar in North Carolina) – RD; Legends (gay bar in Raleigh, North Carolina) – MGK; Locklands (gay bar in Richmond) – TF; The Lost and Found (Washington, D.C.) – MSR; Mythos (gay bar in Charlotte, North Carolina w/ black clientele) – MGK; My-O-My Club (New Orleans, LA) – DJ; Pier 21 (dance club in Greensboro, North Carolina[?]) – JB; The Shamrock (gay bar in Bluefield, West Virginia) – MGK; Warehouse (gay bar in Greensboro, North Carolina) – MGK; C. Queer spaces, neighborhoods, and communities in Southwest Virginia – in alphabetical order 319 Harrison Street (Lynchburg) – GJ; PT; TF; Bullitt Avenue (gay cruising site, Roanoke) – LB; DJ; CSW; LF; MSR; MB3; The Butcher Block (gay cruising site at Bullitt Avenue and 3rd St SE; 1980s) – RS; LF; Campbell Avenue (sex work scene) – A; Downtowner Motel – DJ; CSW; Elmwood Park (Roanoke) – EW; RD; DS; DJ; MGK; CSW; Floyd, Virginia queer community – EW; LS; L; Queer farming community – LS; L; Greyhound Bus Station (Bullitt Avenue, Roanoke, 1950s-1970s) – DJ; CSW; MB3; 8 �- glory holes in bathroom doors – MB3; Highland Avenue brothel (early 1990s) – A; Highland Park (Roanoke) – GJ; EW; RD; RS; SS; YCS; GB; RC; RCH; - as gay cruising site – RS; Marilett Frames (lesbian-owned frame shop in Grandin Village) – PS; The ‘meat market’ (City Market prostitution scene) – LF; Oakey’s Field (Salem) – PS; KLB; Old Southwest (Roanoke) – GJ; DJ; PS; DM; GG; MB2; KLB; YCS; GB; MSR; MB3; TF; - as gay ghetto – MSR; - gay men’s involvement in rehabilitating homes – MSR; Out Word Connections (bookstore) – RC; Roanoke City Market – DM; MGK; CSW; LF; GSR; - as red-light district – MGK; CSW; LF; - Gay scene around the City Market – CSW; Roanoke, Virginia gay community – DM; Roanoke, Virginia lesbian community – SS; PS; KLB; - racial dynamics – KLB; GB; Rural communities – LS; L; - building queer community – L; - Experiences of queer youth in rural areas – LS; - Rural queer activism – LS; - Queer farmers – LS; - small-town economies – L; - social networks – L; - Trump Country – L; - Walmart – L; Salem Avenue (downtown Roanoke red light district; 1970s) – DM; A; MGK; LF; Salem, Virginia lesbian community – PS; Tanglewood Mall – NP; MB3; - Barnes and Noble store (gay hangout) – NP; Wasena Park (Roanoke) – GJ; LB; RS; PS; YCS; RC; RCH; - as gay cruising site – RS; YMCA (gay hangout; Church Avenue in Roanoke) – CSW; D. Queer spaces, neighborhoods, and communities outside of Southwest Virginia – in alphabetical order Atlanta, Georgia – MGK Birmingham, Alabama – P; Boston gay scene – GG; The Castro (San Francisco) – KO; Charlotte, North Carolina – JB; CSW; RCH; - Nightlife – JB; - drag scene – CSW; 9 �- MCC church there – RCH; Chicago, Illinois – LF; CL; ; - Andersonville – CL; - Boystown – CL; College Station, Texas gay scene (late 1970s) – PS; Eureka Springs, Arkansas gay community – KLB; Fort Lauderdale, Florida gay scene – KO; Gay bathhouses – EW; RS; MSR; Gay bookstores (Roanoke; D.C.; Cleveland; &c) – RS; KO; A; LF; NP; as site for sex / cruising – RS; LF; Greensboro, North Carolina– NP; P; SR; Honolulu, Hawaiʻi – GSR; Jacksonville, North Carolina– MB2; Lansing, Michigan gay scene (1980s-1990s) – EW; Los Angeles, California, lesbian scene – KLB; Miami gay scene – GG; - South Beach – GG; New Orleans – MSR; - gay bar scene – MSR; - French Quarter – MSR; New York City – DM; KLB; MB3; GSR; - Brooklyn, New York – GSR; - Greenwich Village – NP; Norfolk, Virginia – RD; KLB; CSW; AR; - gay bar scene – DJ; - drag scene – CSW; North Carolina drag scene – CSW; Raleigh, North Carolina drag performance scene – MGK; Richmond, Virginia gay scene – RS; GG; TF; - Virginia War Memorial Carillon (gay cruising site in Richmond) – RS; Saginaw, Michigan gay scene (1980s) – EW; Southern California gay scene (1980s) – LC; Timberfell (gay men’s resort in Tennessee) – RD; Washington, D.C. – GG; CSW; MSR; TJ; - DuPont Circle – KO; TJ; - as Roanoke folks’ gay stomping ground – MSR; - Gay bathhouses – MSR; Wow Café (lesbian theater space in NYC) – KLB; “Wrinkle room” – a gay bar or establishment that caters mostly to older men – RD; E. Other places/spaces in Southwest Virginia 7-11 (convenience store) – MB2; Abingdon, Virginia – KLB; Appalachian Mountains – RJ; 10 �Appalachian Power Company – M; Ararat (Patrick County), Virginia – JB; Avenham (Roanoke neighborhood) – DM; Beamer’s – GSR; Bedford, Virginia – PT; CSW; Bedford Lake (swimming park in Bedford, VA) – MB3; Billy’s (formerly known as Billy’s Ritz) (bar in Roanoke) – DS; RS; A; MGK; GSR; Black-owned businesses – AR; Blacksburg, Virginia – MSR; LS; Blue Ridge Parkway – RJ; Buchanan, Virginia – TF; The Cascades (hiking trail in Giles County) – KO; Catawba, Virginia – PS; The Capitol (downtown Roanoke bar in the 1970s?) – DM; MGK; Chick-Fil-A – MB2; The Chili Shop (bar/restaurant in Roanoke in the 1960s) – DJ; Christiansburg, Virginia – RCH; CL; CoLab (co-working space in Roanoke, Virginia) – GSR; Community Hospital – KLB; A; Community Inn (Grandin Village, Roanoke) – WC; Corned Beef & Co. (bar in Roanoke) – MB2; GSR; CUPS (coffeehouse) – MB2; Douthat State Park – PS; Dress Barn (clothing store in Roanoke) – TV; El Ray apartments (Raleigh Court) – A; Fagg, Virginia – NK; Floyd, Virginia – JB; LS; - Mardi Gras celebration – JB; - Artist community – LS; FloydFest – MB2; Franklin County, Virginia – SR; Gainsboro (neighborhood in Northwest Roanoke) – AR; - Henry Street (Gainsboro) – LF; Giles County, VA – MB3; Goodwill (thrift store) – GB; Grand Home Furnishings – M; Grandin Theater – TF; - Miss Grandin Theater competition – TF; Grandin Village – MB2; Harrisonburg, Virginia – PS; - lack of gay community in the 1960s and 1970s – PS; Heironimus (department store in Roanoke, Virginia) – RD; TF; Henry County, Virginia – NP; Hermitage Roanoke (senior living community) – JC; Holiday Inn at Tanglewood Mall (Roanoke) – VL; MGK; - The Elephant Walk (bar and restaurant inside the Holiday Inn) – VL; Hopkins Gap, Virginia – PS; 11 �- attitudes towards homosexuality – PS; Hotel Roanoke – RD; Hunting Hills (Roanoke neighborhood) – DM; The Iroquois (bar in Roanoke) – A; The Jefferson Center (performing arts venue, Roanoke) – MGK; CSW; LF; Kroger – CSW; Lakeside Amusement Park (Salem) – A; - racism at Lakeside – A; Lewis Gale Hospital – A; Lincoln Terrace housing project (Roanoke, Virginia) – DM; Lynchburg, Virginia – PT; R; RJ; TF; - LGBT community (or lack thereof) – R; - Conservatism of the city, and influence of Jerry Falwell – R; Lynchburg Public Library – M; Martinsville, Virginia – MGK; NP; - Furniture manufacturing history – NP; Maysville, Kentucky – L; McAlister’s Deli (restaurant at Towers, Roanoke) – BM; Miller & Rhoads (department store) – TF; Mill Mountain Coffee & Tea – MB2; Mill Mountain Theater – MB2; Miss Tonies (downtown Roanoke bar in the 1970s?) – DM; MGK; Monument Avenue (Richmond) – TF; - Removal of Confederate monuments – TF; Natural Bridge – MB3; O’Charleys (chain restaurant at Valley View Mall, Roanoke) – RD; The Ole Belmont (downtown Roanoke bar in the 1970s?) – DM; Our Lady of Nazareth Church buildings (Campbell Avenue, Roanoke) – GJ; The Manhattan (downtown Roanoke bar in the 1970s?) – DM; MGK; The New Market (downtown Roanoke bar) – MGK; The New Wood (former bar in Roanoke in the 1970s) – RD; Northwest Roanoke – DM; AR; - Melrose neighborhood – AR; The Patrick Henry Hotel (Roanoke) – LB; DS; A; MGK; MB3; Pulaski, Virginia – CL; Radford, Virginia – SS; MSR; Raleigh Court (Roanoke neighborhood) – A; Restaurant industry – MB2; Roanoke County – GG; Roanoke County Women’s Club building – GB; Roanoke Memorial Hospital – A; Roanoke Public Libraries – DJ; PS; AR; GSR; Roanoke Regional Airport – TV; Roanoke Rescue Mission – LB; The Roanoke Theater – RD; Roanoke County Women’s Club – KLB; NK; 12 �Salem, Virginia – BM; RC; MB3; TF; The Samaritan Inn (on Salem Avenue) – AB; Shawsville, Virginia – JC; Sheraton Inn (Roanoke) – VL; Southeast Roanoke – DM; RCH; - as food desert – RCH; Starkey, Virginia (Roanoke County) – MB3; Stritesky’s Florist (Roanoke) – TF; Taubman Art Museum – TJ; Thalhimers (department store) – TF; Thrifty Inn (Roanoke) – A; VA hospital in Salem, Virginia – MSR; - HIV/AIDS care in the 1980s – MSR; Valley Country (country music bar in Roanoke in the 1980s) – BM; Valley View Mall – WC; MGK; Vinton, Virginia – YCS; F. Other places/spaces outside of Southwest Virginia Alabama – P; Atlanta, Georgia – AR; JC; TJ; Charlottesville, Virginia – TJ; Cleveland Heights, Ohio – MB; Colonial Williamsburg – MSR; Durham, North Carolina – SS; Florida – AR; Gary, West Virginia – CSW; Georgetown (Washington, D.C.) – YCS; Greensboro, North Carolina – MGK; King’s Dominion (theme park outside of Richmond, Virginia) – RS; London, England – LS; Los Angeles, California – KLB; Mount Airy, North Carolina – NP; New Jersey – AR; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania – NP; The Philippines – SR; Phoenix, Arizona – MSR; Portsmouth, Virginia – RCH; Raleigh, North Carolina – WC; Rex hospital (Raleigh, North Carolina) – A; Rock Creek, North Carolina – A; - history of the Township of Patterson – A; San Diego, California – SR; Sanford, North Carolina – SS; - presence of KKK – SS; 13 �Schenectady, New York – GSR; Southside Virginia – MSR; - La Crosse, Virginia – MSR; - Marengo, Virginia – MSR; Toronto, Canada – YCS; Tucson, Arizona – LS; Ventura, California – RCH; Virginia Beach, Virginia – TJ; Walt Disney World – AR; Winchester, Virginia – R; Wichita, Kansas – JC; 3. Media A. LGBTQ publications in Southwest Virginia – in approximate chronological order Big Lick Gayzette (Roanoke, 1971) – GJ; DJ; Virginia Gayzette (Roanoke, 1972, 1978) – DJ; PALS Newsletter (1980-1983) - TF; Blue Ridge Lambda Press (Lynchburg, then Roanoke, 1983 – 2008) – GJ; PT; RCH; MSR; TF; - “pink pages” – TF; - Willy Waltzer (pseudonymous column in the Blue Ridge Lambda Press) – TF; Skip Two Periods (lesbian newspaper in Roanoke, 1983 - 1988) – PS; KLB; NK; GB; - the “Condor Sisters” (column in newspaper) – KLB; - “Lez Fun” (column in newspaper) – NK; Shout (gay newspaper in Roanoke in the 1980s) – DS; The Unlikely Story of the Lesbians of First Friday (film; 2019) – KLB; GB; - Kathryn L. Beranich (director) – GB; B. LGBTQ publications outside of Southwest Virginia – in alphabetical order The Advocate (gay magazine) – KO; NP; TF; Alex Sanchez (writer) – RC; Amazon (feminist newspaper in Milwaukee in the 1970s) – KLB; Beebo Brinker book series – PS; The Blade (Washington, D.C. newspaper) – DM; Curve (lesbian magazine) – NP; Fitness magazines – RC; Gay Community News (Boston newspaper) – GJ; 14 �Gay newspapers – M; RJ; - lesbian newspapers – RJ; Gay Yellow Pages – JB; James Howe (children’s books author) – NP; John Francis Hunter, The Gay Insider: USA (national gay guidebook, 1972) – DJ; Invisible Lives (book) – RC; The Lesbian Connection (magazine published in Michigan, 1974 – present) – EW; Lesbian pulp fiction – PS; Lesbian Woman (book) – M; David Levitahn (YA books author) – NP; The Newsletter (Durham, NC gay newspaper?) – NK; Our Trans Children (publication of PFLAG) – MB; Out (gay magazine) – NP; TJ; Patricia Nell Warren – RC; RCH; - Front Runner (novel) – RCH; Playgirl (magazine) – MB3; QNotes (LGBTQ publication in Charlotte, NC) – RCH; Rita Mae Brown – MB2; RC; - Rubyfruit Jungle (novel) – MB2; - Sneaky Pie series – RC; Trans Forming Families (publication of PFLAG) – MB; C. Other media in Southwest Virginia 102 Jamz (Greensboro, NC radio station) – SR; “Cooking Cheap” (nationally-syndicated television show produced in Roanoke) (1981-2002) – LB; - the ‘Cook Sisters’ (a segment performed in drag on the show) – LB; Journalism – LS; - The place of women and femmes in journalism – LS; Rare Press (Roanoke-based publisher) – AR; Soul Sessions (poetry event in Roanoke) – AR; Harvest Blaque (performing artist in Roanoke) – AR; The Daily Advance (Lynchburg newspaper) – PT; The Roanoke Times – DJ; NK; RCH; The Roanoke Tribune (newspaper) – AR; The Roanoker (magazine) – MGK; The Speakeasy on 11th Street (poetry event in Roanoke, 2019-2020) – AR; Uncle Looney (local television personality) – MSR; WBRA (Blue Ridge Public Television) – NK; WDBJ-7 (television station in Roanoke) – KLB; RCH; - Keith Humphry (reporter) – KLB; WROV (radio station in Roanoke) – LB; WSLS (television station in Roanoke) – KLB; 15 �WTOY (radio station) – MB3; WVTF (radio station) – MB2; - controversy over airing the program “Fresh Air” (c. 1990) – MB2; D. Television & Film Angelina Jolie – LS; Anna Nicole (television personality) – KLB; Bette Midler – KLB; Beverly Hillbillies (television show) – DM; Caitlyn Jenner – R; GG; Chicago MD (Television show) – YCS; Daniel Boone – P; The Danish Girl (film, 2015) – RW; Dark Shadows (television show, 1966-1971) – PT; David Susskind Show (television show) – NK; Dyke TV (NYC television station) – KLB; E Entertainment Television – KLB; Ellen DeGeneres – DS; KO; MB; NK; LS; Ethel Merman – DM; Family Ties (television show) – AB; Filmmaking – LS; - Documentary filmmaking – LS; Genderqueer (documentary film) – RC; Gone with the Wind (film, 1939) – DS; I Dream of Genie (television show) – KLB; Judith Light – KLB; Katy Perry – LS; - “I Kissed a Girl” (song) – LS; Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (film) – LS; Laverne Cox – R; GG; NP; Lesbian themes in motion pictures / films – NK; Mary Tyler Moore – KLB; M.A.S.H. – RC; Michael J. Fox – AB; Modern Family (television show) – NP; Mr. T – AB; The Music Man –RC; Neil Patrick Harris – NP; Nightline (television show) – TF; Oprah Winfrey – YCS; Orange is the New Black (television show) – NP; Representation of LGBT people on TV / in films – DM; NP; “Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In” (television show) – JC; RuPaul’s Drag Race – MGK; LF; 16 �Sexism in the television industry – KLB; Sordid Lives (film, 2000) – RD; Star Trek (television series) – P; Television industry – KLB; - Television commercials – LS; To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar (film) – TF; Transparent (television show) – KLB; True Hollywood Story (television show) – KLB; Queer as Folk (television show) – NP; E. Visual arts Costume design (for drag pageantry) – TF; Gay art / erotic art – TF; Photography – LS; - Appalachian photography – LS; - Documentary photography – LS; - Gilles Peress (photographer) – LS; - Julie Rae Powers (photographer) – LS; - Roger May (photographer) – LS; F. Music & Performing Arts & Literary Arts African American LGBTQ people in media, representations of – YCS; Alok Vaid-Menon – L; American Croatian Silver Strings Tamberitsa Orchestra (Milwaukee) – KLB; Aretha Franklin – AB; CSW; Billboard (magazine) – DM; Border’s bookstore – JC; Blues music – RJ; Broadway music – CSW; Carol Burnett (comedian) – MB3; Celebrities – R; GG; - African American LGBT celebrities – GG; Cher – MB; Cris Williamson – GB; Culture Club (musical group) – AB; Debby Boone (singer) – NK; Deniece Williams – MGK; Diana Ross – MGK; CSW; MB3; Disco – PT; DJ; MSR; Donna Summer – PT; DJ; Elizabeth Acevedo (poet) – AR; Emily Dickenson (poet) – JC; Elton John – R; MB3; 17 �Elvis Presley – RJ; Eminen – AB; Fashion industry – GG; Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention – KLB; “Fresh Air” (radio program) – MB2; - interviews with gay people – MB2; - the show’s lesbian audience – MB2; - Terry Gross (host) – MB2; Gays in the media – DS; DM; “The Great American Trailer Park Show” (off-broadway show) – AB; Harper’s Bazaar (fashion magazine) – GG; Jennifer Holliday – MGK; Hustler (magazine) – A; Indigo Girls – RC; Jackson 5 – MGK; James Kirkup – DJ; Janet Jackson – CSW; June Millington – GB; Kate Clinton (lesbian comedian) – KLB; NK; Lady Bunny (famous drag performer) – MGK; Lesbian music scene – GB; Liberace – R; Linda Tillery (musician) – GB; Little Richard – AB; Martha Reeves & the Vandellas (musical group) – MB3; Michael Jackson – AB; Music industry – DM; National Public Radio (NPR) – MB2; RCH; Olivia Records – NK; Opera Roanoke – TF; Patti LaBelle – MGK; CSW; Plaveryavda (Croatian dance group in Milwaukee) – KLB; Playboy (magazine) – KLB; Publishing – AR; Ravinia (music festival in Chicago) – KLB; Ray Charles – AB; Roberta Flack – AB; Rock Hudson – R Rock & Roll (music) – RJ; Role of women in media – KLB; The Roots (musical group) – SR; Rosie O’Donnell – GB; RuPaul – MGK; Split Britches (lesbian theater group) – KLB; NK; Stevie Wonder – AB; Theater – DM; 18 �Women’s theater – KLB; U2 (band) – AB; Bobby Vee (musician) – MB3; The Village People (musical group) – MB3; Village Voice (NYC newspaper) – KLB; - Michael Musto (gossip columnist) – KLB; Vogue (fashion magazine) – GG; Women’s music industry – KLB; NK; Writing (fiction) – AB; - Science fiction – AB; 4. Education & Work A. Schools, colleges, and universities in Southwest Virginia Averett University (Danville, Virginia) – NP; Blacksburg High School – LC; Bluefield College (Baptist college) – RCH; Carson Newman (Baptist college) – RCH; Cave Spring Elementary School – MB3; Cave Spring High School – GJ; MB3; Christiansburg Industrial Institute – CL; Dearington Elementary School (Lynchburg) – PT; Dunbar High School (Lynchburg) – PT; Fairview Elementary school – SR; Ferrum College – PT; R; DM; LF; SR; - lack of diversity – SR; Floyd County High School – RW; JB; KO; - Diversity Club – JB; KO; - Rate of suicide attempts – JB; - Teacher-student sexual assault – KO; - Failure of administration to protect LGBTQ students – KO; Glenvar High School – MB3; Green Valley Elementary School – MB3; Highland Park Elementary School – JC; Hollins University – MB; KLB; RC; - Women’s Center – MB; Huff Lane Intermediate School (Roanoke) – TJ; Jefferson High School – DJ; DM; Lakewood Junior High School (Lynchburg, Virginia) – PT; Liberty University – R; TF; Lincoln Terrace Elementary School – DM; Lucy Addison Middle School – SR; 19 �Montgomery County school district – EJ; CL; - policy on transgender students – EJ; North Cross school (Roanoke) – A; Patrick Henry High School – DM; GG; A; SR; Radford University – SS; PS; LC; MSR; SR; - co-education – MSR; - homophobia – SS; MSR; - lesbian student life in the late 1970s, early 1980s – SS; - P.E. [physical education] club – SS; Randolph College – GB; Raleigh Court elementary school (Roanoke) – A; Roanoke College – DJ; BM; MB2; KLB; NK; GB; GSR: - Fintel Library – MB2; - CUPS coffeeshop on campus – MB2; Salem High School – TF; School integration (in Southwest Virginia in the 1960s and 1970s) – GJ; PT; DJ; DM; CSW; CL; TF; - busing – PT; SR; Virginia Episcopal School (college preparatory school in Lynchburg) – PT; - homosexuality among the students – PT; Virginia Heights elementary school (Roanoke) – A; TJ; Virginia Tech – PS; LC; NK; GB; MSR; NP; MB3; CL; SR; L; - Christian Youth Group (late 1960s – early 1970s) – LC; - Gay Student Alliance / Gay Student Union (late 1970s – ?) – NK; MB3; o Gay Awareness Week / Denim Day (1979 event) – NK; GB; § Denim Day 40th anniversary commemoration at Virginia Tech (2019) – GB; o Administration’s response to Gay Student Alliance – NK; o Governor’s response to Gay Student Alliance – NK; - Homophobia – NK; - Lambda Horizons (Virginia Tech gay student group, 1980s) – TF; - LGBTQ at Virginia Tech (organization) – L; - Sociology Department – PS; - Squires Student Center – NK; - War Memorial Gym – NK; - West Eggleston (dormitory) – NK; - the Women’s Collective (student group in late 1970s) – NK; o Women’s Week (December 1977 event) – NK; - Women’s reading group (early 1990s) – LC; Virginia Western Community College – EW; BM; GG; YCS; RC; MB3; William Fleming High School (Roanoke) – A; YCS; AR; SR; Woodrow Wilson Junior High School (Roanoke) – AB; Wytheville High School – CL; B. Schools, college, and universities outside of Southwest Virginia 20 �Bates College (Lewiston, Maine) – GSR; Bridgewater College – M; RJ; - Pride Week celebration (2010s) – M; - Gay student union (2010s) – M; Bristol High School (Bristol, Tennessee) – VL; CalArts (the California Institute for the Arts) – GSR; Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, Ohio) – MB; DePaul University (Chicago) – CL; Divine Savior High School (Milwaukee) – KLB; Duquesne University (Pittsburgh, PA) – SR; East Carolina University – SS; MB2; Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT; New York) – GG; Fork Union Military Academy (private military school in Fork Union, Virginia) – VL; Hampden-Sydney College (all-men’s college) – PT; A; James Madison University – PT; PS; M; RJ; James Woods High School (Frederick County, Virginia) – R; John Hanley High School (Winchester, Virginia) – R; Longwood University – AR; Mary Baldwin College (all-women’s college) – KO; Michigan State University – EW; Milwaukee Area Technical College – KLB; Milwaukee Independent School – KLB; New Bern Senior High School (New Bern, North Carolina – MB2; North Carolina State University – TV; North Park University (Chicago) – CL; Oberlin College – MB; Old Dominion University – LC; Perkins School of Theology (Dallas, Texas) – JC; Phillips Business College – M; Shenandoah University (formerly Shenandoah Conservatory of Music) – BM; South Gwinnett High School (Atlanta, Georgia) – AR; Southwestern College (Winfield, Kansas) – JC; Tennessee Technological University – VL; Texas A & M University – PS; Texas Tech University – PS; Tulane University – MSR; Union College (Schenectady, New York) – GSR; University of Virginia, state system – RJ; University of Virginia, Charlottesville – GJ; M; RJ; MSR; - Gay Student Union (early 1970s) – M; RJ; University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill – RD; DJ; University of North Carolina, Greensboro – JB; MB2; University of Pittsburgh – NP; University of Richmond – KO; University of South Carolina – RJ; 21 �Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) – RW; GG; TF; - Queerness among the student body – TF; Walatosa East High School (Milwaukee) – KLB; Wayne State University (Detroit, Michigan) – EJ; Wellesley College – MB; William & Mary College – MSR; - gay community in the 1960s – MSR; C. Issues for LGBTQ students, faculty, and staff Academia – PS; MSR; - sexism / patriarchy within – PS; - homophobia within – PS; - tenure and promotion – PS; MSR; Boys homes / boarding schools – R; Bullying and harassment – RW; KO; R; DM; A; MGK; NP; MB3; P; Children coming out in schools – YCS; Discussion of gay issues in class – LS; L; Dorm mothers – M; Drum majorette / marching band – MGK; Gay teachers in public schools – NP; Gender-segregated facilities – M; High school gay and lesbian student clubs – RD; Gay-Straight Alliances (GSAs) – NP; High school reunions – RCH; LGBT school teachers – MB2; Libraries, accessibility of LGBT books – M; MB2; P.E. class – MGK; Prom – MGK; Racism in public schools in Virginia – CL; Student loan debt – YCS; D. Areas of Study & Research Arts management – MB2; Biology – RJ; Choir – TF; Cosmetology – YCS; Gay and Lesbian Studies – KLB; History – PS; GSR; - Appalachian histories of resistance – LS; o Coal miners’ wars – LS; - Black History – MB3; CL; o Black History Month – MB3; - Lesbian herstory – PS; KLB; NK; - Women’s history – PS; 22 �- LGBTQ history – RCH; NP; GSR; o and whiteness – GSR; o generational conflict – GSR; LGBT literature – RCH; NP; Library Science – M; Music – GSR; Sociology – PS; RJ; MSR; - Rural sociology – PS; - Sociology of food use – PS; - Sociology of religion – MSR; Student teaching – RC; Trans studies – GSR; Treatment of homosexuality in scholarly research – M; MB2; Women’s Studies – PS; KLB; E. Occupations Custodial work – TF; Farming – L; - Flower farming – L; - Horses – L; - Land privilege / Land sharing – L; - Farming as a queer space – L; - #QueerFarmers (hashtag) – L; Fashion industry – GG; TF; - Tim Gunn – GG; - Andre Leon Talley – GG; - LGBTQ people in the fashion industry – GG; - Modeling – GG; Gardening – L; - Home gardening – L; - Food security in rural Appalachia – L; Housekeeping – CSW; Interior decoration – RD; TF; Types of employment available to gay men – TF; - Window dressing – TF; - Hairdressing – TF; - Florists – TF; - Interior design – TF; Work/life balance / workaholism – GG; JC; TJ; Youth unemployment – BM; 5. Religion 23 �A. Religious organizations in Southwest Virginia African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church (denomination) – NP; Assemblies of God – JB; Black churches (in Southwest Virginia) – JB; GG; A; MGK; AB; LF; YCS; AR; NP; - church choir – A; MGK; LF; - gay people in the church – AR; - views on homosexuality in the Black church – GG; MGK; LF; AR; Church of the Brethren (denomination) – MB3; First Baptist Church (downtown Roanoke) – BM; Jerry Falwell – PT; R; MB2; RCH; TF; - Thomas Roads Baptist Church (Falwell’s church in Lynchburg) – RCH; Jehovah’s Witnesses – JB; R; M; Loudon Avenue Christian Church – YCS; MB3; - Rev. William Lee – YCS; - acceptance of gay and lesbian congregants – MB3; Metropolitan Community Church – EW; JB; EJ; GB; RCH; JC; MB3; TF; - Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge (Roanoke) (1986 – present) – EW; TV; BM; EJ; SS; MB2; RJ; LC; CSW; GB; RC; RCH; JC; MB3; P; SR; GSR; TF; o The Skittles (house band in the 2010s) – EJ; SS; o storefront locations on Kirk Avenue – SS; o beginnings at the Unitarian Universalist Church (1986-1998) – SS; RCH; o involvement in Pride in the Park – SS; o response to Backstreet Café shooting (2000) – SS; P; o approach to atheists / non-believers – RJ; o Rev. Joe Cobb – MB2; LC; GSR; o Richard Ward III – RCH; o food pantry – RCH; - Metropolitan Community Church in Winston, North Carolina(?) – JB; - MCC congregation in Richmond, VA – MB3; - MCC congregation in Norfolk, Virginia – RCH; o unnamed Black lesbian pastor (early 1980s) – RCH; - Church teachings – EJ; The Mormon Church – JB; Neff Powell (Episcopal Archbishop) – TF; Pentecostal Holiness Church (denomination) – NP; TJ; Presbyterianism – TF; - Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church – MB3; Seventh-Day Adventists – JB; KO; Southern Baptist Church (denomination) – NP; P; TF; The Society of Friends / Quakers – EW; JB; KO; CL; -in Roanoke, Virginia – EW; -in Floyd, Virginia – JB; KO; -Testimony of Equality – EW; 24 �St. James Episcopal Church (Roanoke) – DJ; St. John’s Episcopal Church (Roanoke) – TF; Unitarian Universalists – MB; - Unitarian Universalist Church of Roanoke – VL; MB; LC; JC; GSR; - Becoming a Welcoming Congregation – LC; Unity Church (Roanoke) – MB3; Valley Word Ministries (church in Roanoke) – AR; B. Religious organizations outside of Southwest Virginia Affirmation (LGBT support group for Mormons) – JB; Jimmy Creech (minister and LGBTQ advocate) – RCH; Newman House (Catholic campus organization) – MB2; United Methodist Church – JC; - position on homosexuality – JC; Westboro Baptist Church – DS; DM; C. Religious publications and media For the Bible Tells Me So (documentary film) – JB; Gaychurch.org – JB; Homosexuality: A straight BYU student’s perspective (book) – JB; Jack Rogers, The Bible and Homosexuality (book) – JB; D. General issues in religion Atheism – M; RJ; P; Baptism – P; Baptist (denomination) – RCH; - Southern Baptist – PT; RCH; NP; The Bible – TV; JB; AB; CSW; YCS; RCH; NP; TF; Bible Belt – KO; PT; GG; LC; TF; Bible Study classes – MB3; Biblical literalism – R; Buddhism- AB; RC; Chaplains – RC; Christianity – JB; PT; GG; M; MB2; LC; A; AB; LF; YCS; RC; RCH; AR; JC; NP; MB3; P; TJ; SR; TF; - Christian saints – RC; - Evangelicalism – M; - God – PT; R; GG; RJ; LC; A; YCS; RCH; RC; - Hell - TJ; 25 �- The Jesus Movement (1960s-1970s) – LC; - Sin – YCS; TF; Christianity and homosexuality – TV; PT; BM; M; LC; NK; AB; RC; MSR; AR; MB3; P; TJ; TF; Christianity and transphobia – VL; TJ; Christian education – LC; RCH; Christian summer camps – RCH; - Vacation Bible School – NP; Christian youth groups – NP; Church versus state – M; Episcopalians – RC; TF; Ex-gay ministries – LC; Gay churches vs. regular churches – YCS; Jesus communes – MB3; Jesus Christ – LC; A; RC; RCH; Judaism – RC; - Kabbalah – RC; Missionary work – LC; Native American religions – LC; - Naraya (Shoshone practice) – LC; “Open and affirming” churches – RCH; Puritanism – TF; The Reformation Project – JB; Relationship with nature – RJ; Religion and sexuality – JC; Roman Catholicism – RC; Secular humanism – M; Seminary – JC; Shamanism – RC; Spirituality / Faith – R; GG; RJ; LC; AB; John Shelby Spong (Episcopal theologian) – MB3; Sunday school – NP; TJ; Zen Buddhism – JB; 6. Government A. Electoral politics 1968 Democratic Party Convention in Chicago – EJ; - street protests – EJ; 1972 Presidential Election – GJ; DJ; - Virginia Democratic Party state convention (Roanoke, 1972) – DJ; 1980 Presidential Election – NK; 26 �- Ronald Reagan – NK; TF; 2016 Presidential Election – TV; DJ; EJ; NK; YCS; - Ted Cruz – TV; 2020 Presidential Election – YCS; U.S. Representative Michele Bachman – JB; U.S. President Joe Biden (2021 – ) – YCS; P; L; TF; Bill Bestpitch (Roanoke City Councilmember) – MB; Joel Burns (Fort Worth, Texas City Councilmember) – JB; U.S. President George W. Bush (2001 – 2009) – GSR; Pete Buttigieg – NP; Hillary Clinton – YCS; Joe Cobb (Roanoke City Councilmember, 2018 - ) – NP; SR; Mayor Richard Daly (Chicago, 1960s) – EJ; Democratic Party – DJ; DM; YCS; - liberal / progressive politics in Roanoke – RJ; Senator John Edwards (Virginia) – BM; NP; U.S. Representative Barney Frank – MB LGBT participation in electoral politics – DJ; DM; Gay bashing in Virginia politics – KO; Attorney General Mark Herring (Virginia) – MB2; U.S. Representative Virgil Goode – MB U.S. Representative Morgan Griffith – JB; U.S. Senator Jesse Helms – DJ; NK; Sherman Lea (mayor of Roanoke, 2016 – ) – BM; Governor Bob McDonald (Virginia) – MB2; U.S. Senator Mitch McConnell – TF; U.S. President Barack Obama (2009 – 2017) – MB2; LC; CSW; YCS; NP; U.S. Vice President Mike Pence (2017 – 2021) – YCS; Political campaigns – JC; Delegate Sam Rasoul (Virginia) – BM; NP; Republican Party – SS; - The Tea Party (2000s – 2010s) – MB2; Roanoke City Council – DM; MSR; JC; Eleanor Roosevelt – KLB; U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders – YCS; Mayor Noel Taylor – MB3; U.S. President Donald Trump (2017 - 2021) – EJ; M; MB2; AB; CSW; YCS; LS; L; - Anti-LGBTQ politics under Trump administration – AB; - Family separation policy at U.S.-Mexico border – YCS; - “Make America Great Again” slogan – YCS; - border wall with Mexico – YCS; - rise in hate crimes since Trump was elected – MB2; - travel ban (2017) – M; MB2; U.S. Senator John Warner – MB U.S. Senator Mark Warner – JB; U.S. Senator Jim Webb – JB; 27 �Roy White (Roanoke-area candidate for U.S. Congress in 1970 and 1972) – DJ; B. Crime, policing, and the judicial system Anti-cross-dressing laws – DM; Anti-solicitation law – A; Assault – R; Bail collection – A; Blackmail – RJ; JC; Bounty hunting – A; Criminal justice system – R; A; MGK; Court system, treatment of gays – WC; - court psychologist – R; - court-appointed lawyers – A; Galax Police Department – A; Judicial system in Virginia – KO; - patriarchy and heteronormativity among judges – KO; - Public defenders – A; Police brutality – DM; A; CL; Police harassment of gays – RS; A; Police repression of gay bookstores – RS; Policing and racial justice – MB; Prisons – R; A; - LGBT community within prisons – R; - Rape within prisons – R; - Solitary confinement – A; Roanoke City Police Department – DS; RS; DJ; DM; A; MGK; MSR; JC; MB3; SR; - entrapment of sex workers – A; o Crackdown on transvestite prostitution downtown – DM; A; MGK; CSW; - relationship with the LGBTQ community – DS; JC; - relationships with the Black community – DM; - involvement in crackdowns on gay cruising – RS; o clearing out cruising locations in Highland Park – RS; o collecting license plates of gay cruisers at Elmwood Park – DJ; - Chief of Police (in the 1970s) – MSR; - Chief Tim Jones (2010s) – JC; - Vice Squad – A; MSR; TF; o sexual assault of prostitutes – A; o undercover cops – MSR; Salem Police Department – RC; Stealing / theft – R; The Wall (prison in downtown Richmond) – A; The War on Drugs – A; Wasena Park police sting (1998 – 1999) – RS; MB; RC; RCH; 28 �C. United States Armed Forces “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” – JB; PT; RC; Homosexuality in the military – RD; - “wrinkle room” (where military officers paid younger men for sex) – RD; ROTC (Reserve Officers’ Training Corps) – A; U.S. Air Force – DS; U.S. Marines – MB2; - “WMs” (women marines) – MB2; U.S. Navy – RD; VL; SR; - service in Norfolk, Virginia – RD; The Vietnam War (1955 – 1975) – GJ; LB; GSR; - Anti-war demonstrations – GJ; GSR; - Service in the U.S. army – LB; War in Afghanistan (2001 – 2021) – GSR; War in Iraq (2003 – 2011) – GSR; The War on Terror – GSR; D. Government institutions, legislation, and policy Charlotte, North Carolina bathroom ordinance (2016) – WC; Clarence Thomas Supreme Court confirmation – TF; Comprehensive Employment and Training Act (CETA) (1973) – GJ; M; Congressional lobbying – MB; Constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage in Virginia (2006) – NP; Corporation for Public Broadcasting – MB2; Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) – M; Department of Social Services (DSS) – LC; Employment non-discrimination ordinances – RJ; Fiscal conservatism – SS; Gun control – YCS; HB2: The Public Facilities Privacy & Security Act (North Carolina’s ‘bathroom bill’, 2016) - EJ; MB; DM; NK; Heighra House (drug program in Virginia) – A; Lawrence v. Texas (2003 Supreme Court decision) – CL; National Endowment for the Arts – MB2; Roe v. Wade (1973 Supreme Court decision) – DM; CL; TF; Social Security Administration – M; - Social Security benefits – GB; Sodomy laws / criminalization of homosexuality – RJ; Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP; food stamps) – L; Supplemental Security Income (SSI) – M; Transgender policies under the Obama administration – AB; 29 �U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) – JB; U.S. Office of Civil Rights (OCR) – JB; Obergefell v. Hodges (2015 Supreme Court decision) – M; AR; Veteran Administration (VA) – MSR; Virginia Alcoholic Beverages Control (ABC) board – PT; DJ; TF; “known homosexual” language – TF; The Virginia Values Act (2020) – NP; Youth Risk Behavior Survey – JB; 7. Social Movements A. National LGBTQ movements, events, and people Anita Bryant (leader of national anti-gay movement, late 1970s) – DJ; PS; KLB; NK; Boy Scouts of America – MB; A; MGK; - discrimination against gays – MB; Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon – M; Gay Liberation (1970s) – DJ; M; RJ; CSW; Lesbian feminism – M; RJ; KLB; NK; Lesbian separatism – EW; KLB; GB; LGBTQ activism – MB; MB2; AB; CSW; MSR; P; SR; - Southern queer movements – LS; - uses of violence – MB; Harvey Milk – EW; WC; RCH; Matthew Shepard – RS; AB; RCH; SR; Millennium March on Washington (2000) – MB; Pulse nightclub shooting (2016) – AB; YCS; TF; Safe spaces – AR; The Stonewall Uprising (1969, New York City) – EW; JB; DJ; MB; M; NP; CL; - and whiteness – CL; B. Other social movements, issues, and national events American Civil Liberties Union – CL; Anarchism – GSR; Animal rights – GSR; - and racist literature – GSR; Anti-pipeline activism – LS; Anne Frank – M; Anti-war movement (late 1960s / early 1970s) – GJ; RW; DJ; EJ; LC; KLB; GSR; Banksy – JB; Black freedom movement / Civil Rights movement – EW; RW; MB; DM; KLB; CL; TF; 30 �- Black Power – KLB; - Church Women United – TF; - Exclusion of gay people – CL; - police brutality against African Americans (1950s-1960s) – DM; - the Reconstruction era (1865-1877) – EW; Black Lives Matter movement (2013-2020s) – AR; CL; - Trayvon Martin – AR; - Eric Garner – AR; - George Floyd – CL; GSR; Boycotts – MB2; Cooperatives – EJ; KLB; - Appalantic Federation of Co-Ops – EJ; - women’s cooperatives – KLB; The COVID-19 pandemic (2020-2021) – CL; P; GSR; Deindustrialization – NP Detroit Committee to End the War in Vietnam (1965-1972) – EJ; Earth Day (1970) – GJ; Environmentalism – MB; Feminism – EW; M; LC; KLB; NK; YCS; RC; - the Suffragette movement (late 19th century / early 20th century) – EW; - the women’s movement (1960s – 1970s) – M; KLB; CL; o Exclusion of Black women – CL; - #MeToo movement – LS; First World versus Third World – KO; Gentrification – DM; The Great Depression – MB; A; Major Hasan (Fort Hood shooter) – A; Hippies – EJ; LC; Immigration politics – M; MB2; John Birch Society – KLB; Kent State Massacre and national student strike (1970) – DJ; Ku Klux Klan – SS; NK; YCS; CL; Leftism – GSR; - and whiteness – GSR; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom (1963) – MB; Martin Luther King, Jr. – MB; TJ; TF; Moral Majority – R; NAACP – CL; Native Americans / Indigenous peoples – VL; L; - Land acknowledgement – L; - Land back movement – L; o Land Back tax – L; - Settler colonialism – L; - Tutelo people (indigenous people of Southwest Virginia) – L; North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA; 1994) – NP; The New Left – EJ; 31 �Public housing – PT; People Against Racism (white anti-racist organization in Detroit, Michigan, 1960s?) – EJ; Planned Parenthood – DM; MB2; RC; Political correctness – NK; Race relations – GJ; SS; R; RJ; AR; Racism – PT; R; DM; GG; M; A; YCS; AR; CL; L; TF; Reparations – L; For indigenous peoples – L; Reproductive rights – DM; The Right to Die – MB; Rural gay migration to cities – MB2; Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022) – TF; - Treatment of gay people in Russia – TF; Segregation / Integration – RW; MB; SS; DM; GG; M; MSR; CL; TF; - Busing – SS; SR; - Housing – SS; - Massive resistance (to integration) – CL; - Restaurants – MB; September 11, 2001 – WC; JC; MB3; P; GSR; Sexism / misogyny – RJ; - in the workplace – RJ; - wage discrimination – RJ; Slavery – A; Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) – EJ; Tenant issues – RJ; - slumlords – RJ; Transformative justice – L; - Accountability practices – L; “Unite The Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia (2017) – YCS; CL; U.S. Capitol insurrection (2021) – CL; U.S. Civil War (1861-1865) – PS; KLB; CL; - The Confederacy – TF; - Robert E. Lee – TF; White supremacy – R; YCS; TF; - Neo-Nazis – CL; - rebel flag – R; RJ; - swastika – R; Women’s liberation – KLB; The Women’s March (January 2017) – NK; Women’s rights – DM; 8. Health / Medical 32 �A. HIV/AIDS AIDS benefit shows (drag performances) – MGK; CSW; - concerns about where the money went – MGK; AIDS buddy system – MB3; HIV/AIDS crisis (1980s – 1990s) – GJ; EW; LB; RS; PT; BM; MB; R; DM; KLB; NK; A; MGK; AB; CSW; LF; GB; RC; RCH; MSR; NP; MB3; P; LS; TF; AIDS vigils and memorials – MB3; AIDS quilt – MB; NK; AZT (azidothymidine) (antiviral AIDS medication) – MB3; Biphobia and AIDS – P; Generational differences in responses to AIDS – MGK; On being HIV-positive – MGK; - treatment by medical professionals – MGK; TF; - treatment by others in the gay community – MGK; - Care for people living with HIV – RC; MB3; TF; HIV testing – RC; Lack of government response to AIDS crisis – NK; Lesbian responses to AIDS – EW; NK; GB; P; Magic Johnson – RS; Lansing, Michigan AIDS network – EW; Safe sex / Safer sex – BM; NK; MGK; RC; P; - condoms – BM; MGK; Stigma for LGBT people – R; P; The Ryan White Fund / Ryan White – LB; DS; RS; BM; B. Other health issues and conditions Abortion – DM; MB2; TF; Acne – P; Aging – DM; M; CSW; P; Agoraphobia – AB; P; Alcoholism – PS; LC; LF; GB; MB3; TF; - Alcoholics Anonymous – MB3; P; o Gay Alcoholics Anonymous – P; - within the lesbian community – PS; GB; - drinking culture within the group First Friday – PS; KLB; NK; - drinking culture at the Roanoke Valley Women’s Retreats – PS; Assisted living – CSW; Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) – LS; Cancer – AB; GB; Childhood trauma – LC; Depression – RC; JC; NP; MB3; 33 �Disability – M; Domestic abuse – RW; A; MB3; Drug use – RD; BM; A; AB; P; TF; - Cocaine – BM; - Crack cocaine – MGK; - Drug rehab programs – P; - Heroin – P; - Marijuana – P; - Narcotics Anonymous – P; - Poppers (amyl nitrate) – BM; DSM (psychology manual) – GSR; Gambling – RD; The ‘gay gene’ – TF; Gender confirmation surgery (sex reassignment surgery) - VL; R; RJ; CSW; RC; P; Top surgery (for trans men) – P; Gun violence – CSW; Heart attack – MSR; Homelessness among LGBTQ people – BM; GG; AB; RC; Hormone replacement therapy – R; CSW; RC; NP; P; - Testosterone – P; Hunger – AB; Incest – YCS; TF; Intersex conditions – TV; KO; Isolation – RC; - rural isolation – GB; JoAnn Loulan (writer and sex therapist) – NK; LGBTQ youth issues – JB; LF; GB; Lobotomy – TF; Mental Health – MB2; AB; LF; MSR; Multiple sclerosis – A; Narcotics Anonymous – RCH; Pathologization of transness – GSR; Pedophilia – YCS; Pregnancy – BM; JC; - Miscarriage – JC; Psychotherapy / Counseling – VL; BM; R; LC; JC; GB; MSR; SR; GSR; - Licensed professional counselor (LPC) certification – MSR; - Psychological treatment of homosexuality – R; LC; - Marriage, family, and child therapy – LC; MSR; JC; Psych ward – P; PTSD – LF; Rape / Sexual assault – KO; PS; R; LC; A; YCS; MSR; P; TF; Experiences of transgender people – P; Running away from home – CSW; Self-acceptance – GG; Self-care – TJ; 34 �Sex education – RC; Sexual Harassment – SR; Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs) – P; TF; Syphilis – RS; Social Work – GJ; MB; LC; Stalking – JC; Stroke – AB; Suicide – TV; JB; BM; DM; AB; YCS; RC; NP; P; Transgender-affirming healthcare – NP; Veganism – GSR; 9. Culture A. Pride Festivals, Parades Floyd pride parade (c. 2014 – present) – EW; RW; JB; “Gay Pride” (concept) – MGK; Hampton Roads, Virginia Pride festival – JB; Martinsville Pride festival (2019) – NP; Pride in the Park (Roanoke, 1990 – present) – GJ; EW; LB; RD; WC; TV; VL; SS; PS; DM; MB2; MGK; AB; CSW; YCS; RCH; JC; NP; TF: - At Wasena Park (c. 1990-1996) – PS; TF; - At Highland Park (c. 1997-2003) – SS; JC; - At Elmwood Park (c. 2003-2019) – NP; - Corporate sponsorship of Pride festivals – NP; - Gay auction (to raise money for Pride) – TF; - MCC church service at Pride in the Park – SS; - Normalization / Mainstreaming of Pride over time – SS; NP; Pride flag – L; - Progress Pride flag (c. 2018) – L; Pride marches / Pride festivals – EW; PT; DM; NP; TJ; SR; LS; Roanoke pride parade (2010s) – SS; San Francisco Pride Parade – RW; B. Sports / Athletics Baseball – NP; Basketball – RC; Lesbian Olympics (program at the Roanoke Valley Women’s Retreats, 1980s) – PS; KLB; NK; GB; Horseback riding – PS; Soccer – EW; 35 �Softball – PS; KLB; RC; - Women’s softball league (Salem, Virginia; late 1970s) – KLB; Sports/athletics and lesbianism – NK; Swimming – RC; - Diana Nyad (swimmer) – RC; Track – RC; Trans women in competitive sports – P; Volleyball – RC; C. Drag Performance & Pageantry African Americans in drag performance – MGK; CSW; Body weight / size / shape, concerns over – MGK; Body modification within the drag community – CSW; Camp (style of drag) – MGK; Drag / female impersonation – EW; LB; DS; PT; BM; GG; MB2; MGK; AB; CSW; TF; - Chow, Purina – MGK; - Cruise, Lee – MGK; - Grant, Stephanie – MGK; - Hart, Laura – MGK; - O’Hara, Neely – MGK; - Hartberger, Roger – MGK; - Jones, Jennifer – MGK; - Kelly, Grace – LF; - Kelly, Kristina – AB; MGK; - Lakes, Rosa – AB; MB3; - Salad, Enya – MGK; - Vega, Coco – MGK; - Wilson, Carolyn Sue – MGK; AB; LF; TF; Drag history – MGK; Drag pageantry – MGK; AB; CSW; LF; NP; MB3; - Miss Gay Roanoke (female impersonation competition; started in mid-1970s) – PT; MGK; CSW; TF; o current split into two rival pageants – MGK; - Miss Roanoke at Large pageant – MGK; - Mr. Roanoke Pride MI [male impersonator] – AB; Drama in the drag community – MGK; - sabotaging each other’s acts – MGK; Intergenerational conflict in the drag scene – MGK; CSW; LF; - disrespect toward older queens – MGK; Male impersonation / Drag Kings – AB; Michael Smith (Mr. Microphone) – RCH; Racial issues in the drag scene – MGK; CSW; LF; Street queens (trans sex workers) and relationship to drag performance – LF; Surgery among drag queens / in drag pageantry – CSW; 36 �Technologies of female impersonation (hip pads, breasts, wigs, etc.) – MGK; Transgender people in the competitive drag scene – AB; D. Miscellaneous LGBTQ culture Ancestry.com – VL; Backpacking / camping – RJ; NK; Billiards / pool – EJ; Clubbing / partying – DM; Communal living – EJ; Diversity Bingo (game) – KO; English views on homosexuality – RJ; Erasure of LGBT gathering spaces – RC; Farming / agriculture – LF; L; Gay assimilation into mainstream society – EW; LC; RC; AR; NP; Gay cruising – RS; PT; DM; CSW; RC; MSR; MB3; “Gaydar” (gay radar) – RS; TV; VL; BM; PS; - “Transdar” (transgender radar) – TV; Gay fashion – WC; RS; - men’s use of handkerchiefs to signal sexual intent – RS; Gay tourism in the United States – KO; Guerilla Gay Bar – GSR; Hiking – RJ; Hunting – MGK; Increasing homogeneity of LGBTQ community – RC; Internet (role in the LGBTQ community) – EJ; DM; RCH; RC; AR; P; SR; GSR; L; - cyberbullying – DM; - hate speech online – DM; AR; - Impact of internet on closure of LGBT bookstores – RC; - social media – AB; AR; GSR; L; o Facebook – AR; L; o Hashtags – L; o Instagram – L; Italian-Americans – M; MSR; Leather communities – DS; LF; Nerd/geek culture – AB; Performing music – EJ; - electric bass – EJ; - Loose Gravel (local band in Roanoke) – EJ; Retirement – MB; M; GB; MSR; P; Subjectivity / Intersubjectivity – RC; Terminology – M; Travel – GB; TJ; - Europe – JB; - Japan – LC; 37 �- Nepal – KO; - Passports – TJ; Volunteering / Community service – SS; GG; MB2; GB; CL; Women’s music festivals – NK; - rules about gender at women’s music festivals – NK; 10. Relationships & Encounters A. Romantic and sexual relationships Artificial insemination – BM; Celibacy – JB; Cheating / having an affair – JC; MB3; Dating – SS; PS; GG; KLB; CSW; LF; YCS; MSR; AR; JC; MB3; SR; GSR; - Online dating in the gay community – DS; RS; GG; AR; MB3; o Craigslist – MB3; o Silver Daddies (dating website) – MB3; - Age differences in dating – GG; - In the lesbian community – KLB; Divorce – JB; EJ; BM; JC; MB3; P; - Divorce within the LGBTQ community – BM; Domesticity – LC; The “Down low” / “DL” (men who are secretly having sex with other men) – RS; LF; TF; Interracial dating – DM; A; Interracial sexual attraction – R; Lesbian relationships – GB; Long-distance relationships – YCS; GB; L; Long-term relationships – RJ; Marriage – DM; M; MB2; AB; JC; MB3; GSR; - Heterosexual marriage – EJ; JC; - Interracial marriage – MB; - Same-sex marriage / marriage equality – EW; RD; RW; DS; TV; KO; BM; PS; DM; M; AR; JC; MB3; CL; SR; LS; TF; o Legal and financial benefits for couples – M; o Same-sex weddings – M; o and whiteness – CL; - Transgender persons and marriage – TV; - Married people, in the closet – GB; Open relationships – VL; M; Polyamory – M; NP; - creating poly families – NP; Prostitution – RD; DS; RS; DM; A; MGK; AB; YCS; 38 �- By men within the U.S. Navy – RD; - by transvestites in Roanoke – DS; DM; MGK; - by men at gay cruising areas in Roanoke – RS; Romantic relationships – RJ; AB; CSW; YCS; MSR; AR; MB3; TF; - Gay love vs. straight love – TF; - Romantic relationships involving transgender people – RC; B. Relationships with family members Adoption – BM; MB2; LC; NK; JC; MB3; - LGBTQ adoption & families – CL; TJ; o Rates among LGBTQ people of color – CL; African-American families and homosexuality – DM; YCS; Being a parent to an LGBTQ child – RW; MB; Choosing your own family – MB2; NP; Coming out – EW; RD; RW; DS; WC; RS; JB; KO; PT; BM; EJ; MB; SS; PS; DM; M; MB2; LC; KLB; NK; MGK; LF; YCS; GB; RC; RCH; MSR; AR; JC; NP; TJ; GSR; L; TF; - the “closet” – EJ; GG; MB2; NK; RC; RCH; JC; P; TF; - in Black families vs. white families – YCS; TJ; Disownment – MB2; RC; Drag family – MGK; AB; CSW; - Interplay between drag family and bio family – AB; Fostering children – LC; A; Gay families (chosen families) – MB2; MGK; NP; Gay relatives – MGK; LF; Gay women with children – PS; KLB; NK; Homophobia within one’s family – PS; Motherhood – RW; WC Parenting – BM; WC; NK; AB; YCS; JC; NP; MB3; - Custody issues for gay and lesbian parents – WC; - Legal issues for gay and lesbian parents – BM; NK; - Relationship with adult children – JC; MB3; - Relationship with stepchildren – TF; Relationship with family members - DM; GG; KLB; NK; MGK; AB; CSW; LF; YCS; AR; P; TJ; SR; - Relationship with parents – BM; PS; SS; M; MB2; NK; CSW; LF; YCS; GB; RC; RCH; MSR; AR; JC; NP; MB3; P; TJ; L; TF; - Relationship with stepparents – NP; - Relationship with grandparents – NP; SR; - Relationship with nieces and nephews – TJ; - Relationship with siblings – EJ; PS; DM; GG; M; NK; CSW; LF; SR; TF; - Relationship with in-laws – M; MB3; TF; 39 �C. Relationships within the LGBTQ community Ageism within the gay community – DM; GG; LF; Biphobia within the LGBTQ community – KLB; NK; L; Class differences among gay men – TF; Cliques within Roanoke’s gay community – MGK; Divisions within Roanoke’s LGBTQ community – RCH; - The dominance of white gay men in LGBTQ organizing and spaces – CL; GSR; Friendships – AR; MB3; TJ; - Female friendships – CL; Gender roles in lesbian relationships – PS; MB2; Generational differences in LGBTQ communities – SR; Homonormativity – NP; Labels within the queer community (including the LGBTQ+ acronym, in its various forms) – RS; - “Baby gay” (term) – SR; - “Dyke” (term) – CL; P; - “Faggot” (term) – MGK; YCS; NP; MB3; P; LS; - “Gay” (term) – CSW; LF; RCH; MSR; L; - “Homo” (term) – NK; - “Lesbian” (term) – PS; NK; RCH; - “LGBT”; “LGBTQ” (terms) – NK; LF; CL; P; SR; GSR; - “Pride” (term) – GSR; - “Sissy” (term) – CSW; - “Stud” (term) – SR; - “Queer” (term) – PS; LC; KLB; MSR; MB3; GSR; LS; L; TF; Lack of lesbian participation in Roanoke’s bar scene – DJ; Metronormativity – GSR; Misogyny within the gay community – EW; TF; Relationships between gay men and lesbians – DM; LC; KLB; NK; GB; TF; Self-hating among gays and lesbians – JB; Transgender community in Roanoke – AB; Transphobia within the gay and lesbian community – DJ; TV; VL; MB; NP; D. Relationships with straight / cisgender communities Allies/Allyship – NK; AB; RC; LS; L; Conversion therapy – RW; Discrimination against gay customers – MB2; LGBTQ issues in the workplace – WC; RS; SS; MB2; RJ; KLB; RC; SR; - Coming out in the workplace – SS; PS; YCS; MSR; 40 �- Employment /workplace discrimination against LGBTQ people, especially trans people – AB; CSW; NP; CL; P; - LGBTQ workplace advocacy – SR; GGs (“genetic girls”; cisgender girls) versus TGs (transgender girls) – TV; VL; Heteronormativity – WC; LC; Homophobia – RW; TV; JB; BM; EJ; PS; R; GG; RJ; NK; AB; YCS; GB; GSR; LS; - among medical professionals – PS; - basis in gender relations – NK; - in the workplace – SS; MB2; - in the Black community – GG; LF; Intersectionality between LGBTQ activism and other movements – RW; Patriarchy – PS; M; RJ; L; Rednecks / the term “redneck” – VL; EJ; R; RJ; LS; TF; Relationships with neighbors – CSW; Relationships with straight people – GG; RJ; L; - Relations between straight women and gay men – DM; GG; Reparative therapy – JB; Sexism – RJ; Skinheads – R; Sports bars (heteronormative environment) – EJ; Straight customers at gay bars – DJ; BM; GG; Straight girls kissing – LS; Tenant issues for gay couples – RJ; Transphobia – TV; VL; P; - Deadnaming – P; Violence against LGBTQ people – WC; BM; NK; A; AB; CSW; YCS; RC; SR; TF; - “gay bashing” – BM; YCS; TF; - Violence against transgender persons – WC; VL; SR; 11. Identity A. Race African American LGBT experiences – PT; DJ; R; DM; GG; A; MGK; AB; CSW; LF; YCS; AR; NP; CL; - Visibility of Black LGBTQ community in Roanoke – AB; - African American community attitudes toward homosexuality – AR; Anti-Asian racism – CL; Biracial people – CL; Emotional labor (educating people about race) – CL; History of African Americans in Southwest Virginia – CL; Intersectionality – CL; of race, gender, and sexuality in the Black lesbian experience – CL; 41 �Latinx population in Southwest Virginia – NP; “Mulatto” (term) – CL; Multiracial ancestry – YCS; The N word (term) – YCS; CL; Native American ancestry – YCS; “Negro” (term) – CL; Post-racial ideology – NP; Racial diversity within the LGBTQ community – GG; Racial identity – YCS; Racism within the gay community – DJ; DM; CL; TF; Experiences of people of color in LGBTQ spaces – SR; White guilt – GSR; White privilege – CL; GSR; - LGBTQ people and white supremacy – GSR; - White gay privilege – CL; t “White trash” (term) – TF; B. Gender Agender – NP; Androgyny – AB; RC; Barbie dolls – MGK; Biological explanations for gender/sexuality – CSW; Body weight / size / shape – MGK; Body hair – RC; “Bunny” (term for butch boys) – MGK; The “clone” look in the gay scene – MB3; Clothes shopping as a transgender person – TV; Cross-dressing / transvestitism – TV; VL; EJ; R; DM; NK; A; MGK; AB; CSW; LF; GSR; - As a child – R; CSW; - Feelings of shame around it – EJ; - on men’s desire to cross dress – MGK; - Transvestic fetishism – GSR; - wearing mother’s clothes – GSR; “Drag” (term) – R; MGK; Drag kings – AB; LF; Drag queens – BM; DM; A; MGK; AB; LF; RCH; MB3; “Female illusionist” (term) – MGK; Femininity – BM; EJ; R; KLB; MGK; MSR; JC; TF; Gender and children’s toys – MGK; CL; P; TF; Gender dysphoria – RC; P; GSR; Gender expression – PS; KLB; NK; LS; - butch/femme – PS; KLB; NK; MGK; P; SR; o “butch” among gay men – TF; 42 �- within the lesbian community – KLB; NK; Gender fluidity – EJ; CSW; NP; Gender identity – RW; RS; TV; VL; JB; KO; BM; EJ; R; RJ; AB; CSW; RC; NP; L; - influenced by nature or nurture? – TV; CSW; - as a continuum / spectrum – VL; - the repression of childhood experiences – VL; - biological influences – VL; - among drag performers – MGK; Gender nonconforming – NP; Gender performativity – GSR; Gender roles – RJ; Genderqueer – EJ; RC; L; G.I. Joe dolls – MGK; “Girl” (term) – L; Interplay between drag personas and trans identities – AB; “Lady” (term) – L; Masculinity – VL; JB; EJ; R; NK; AB; MSR; JC; NP; SR; Name changes (for trans & non-binary people) – TV; VL; P; LS; - legal name & gender marker changes – NP; P; Non-binary – EJ; NP; P; L; - Dealing with gendered language and terms – L; Passing (when a transgender person “passes” as cisgender) – TV; VL; EJ; MGK; Pronouns – TV; CSW; L; - “They” – L; “Queen” (term) – TF; Street queens (trans sex workers) – A; MGK; CSW; LF; harassment and violence against transvestite sex workers – A; MGK; CSW; - racial make up of Roanoke’s street queens – LF; - and relationship with drag performance – LF; Swish queens – EW; Tomboy – CL; P; SR; Transgender communities – P; Transgender issues – WC; TV; KO; PT; EJ; MB; R; DM; RJ; LC; AB; CSW; RC; JC; NP; P; GSR; - Coming out as trans – EJ; - generational divides among trans communities – GSR; - Restroom access policies for transgender persons – EJ; MB; TV; DM; AB; CSW; RC; P; - Second Puberty – P; - “Trapped in the wrong body” narrative – NP; Transgender youth – RW; GSR; Transitioning – TV; BM; EJ; MB; R; AB; RC; P; - Transitioning (FTM) – BM; MB; R; - Transitioning (MTF) – EJ; MB; R; Trans men – AB; P; 43 �Binders (for trans men) – AB; Transsexuality – MB; R; NK; P; - Transsexuality vs. transvestitism – R; Two-Spirit people – LC; RC; C. Sexuality BDSM – DS; RS; Bisexuality – EW; EJ; KLB; NK; LF; NP; SR; L; - Straight passing – L; Childhood sexual development – MSR; Cruising – RS; PT; DM; CSW; LF; RC; MSR; MB3; P; Femme4Femme – LS; Gay male sexual roles (topping; bottoming) – MSR; Heterosexuality – GSR; - Compulsory heterosexuality – GSR; “Homosexuality” (term) – M; MSR; Lesbianism – BM; PS; KLB; NK; GB; AR; CL; P; SR; GSR; - Lesbian sex – SR; - Trans lesbianism – GSR; Male sexuality versus female sexuality – M; Nature vs. nurture debate with homosexuality – YCS; Oral sex – MSR; Pansexuality – NP; Pornography – RS; MSR; GSR; - Lesbian pornography – GSR; - Online pornography – GSR; Puberty – JC; SR; GSR; Public sex – P; Rural sexuality – MSR; Sex positivity – LC; Sexual orientation diversity within the transgender community – TV; VL; Sex work – A; MGK; CSW; LF; 44 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource A Guide to the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection. Description An account of the resource This is a guide to the the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Accruals are expected. Also included is a subject index for the project's Oral History Initiative. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Collection is open to research. Virginia Room copy fees may apply. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LGBTQHistory Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Southwest Virginia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2607/Daniel_Jones_-_Part_I.MP3 6da47f1d19acd64b77ec5b702962605b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2607/Daniel_Jones_-_Part_II.MP3 d70c892106c0065abbfa712eaf9e20df https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2607/Daniel_Jones_-_transcript.pdf 47e6a855b5b8b597bb0db1643f61b63a PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Daniel  Jones  –  in  two  parts   February  20,  2016       Interviewer:  Gregory  Rosenthal   Interviewee:  Daniel  Jones   Date:  February  20,  2016   Location:  Roanoke  College  History  Department,  223  E  Main  Street,  Salem     Transcribed  by:  Gregory  Rosenthal     Duration:  95:28     Part  One  (53:41):   0:00  =  childhood  in  Southeast  Roanoke  (1947-­‐1950s)   3:20  =  attending  Jefferson  High  School  (1961-­‐1965)   7:48  =  attending  Roanoke  College  (1965-­‐1969)   13:14  =  attending  graduate  school  at  UNC-­‐Chapel  Hill  (1969-­‐1970)   17:31  =  Roanoke’s  gay  scene  in  the  late  1960s   19:50  =  The  Tradewinds,  Roanoke’s  first  gay  bar   25:53  =  Elmwood  Diner,  a  gay  hangout  in  the  1960s   27:37  =  political  activity  at  UNC-­‐Chapel  Hill  (1969-­‐1970)   29:52  =  returning  to  Roanoke  in  1970,  and  founding  the  Gay  Alliance  of  the  Roanoke   Valley  (GARV)  in  1971   35:40  =  GARV’s  use  of  St.  James  Episcopal  Church  as  a  meeting  place  (1971-­‐1972)   39:14  =  recounting  the  visit  of  Morty  Manford,  of  the  Gay  Activists  Alliance  of  NYC,   to  Roanoke  in  1971   42:27  =  GARV’s  “zap”  on  Tradewinds  (1971),  and  other  protests  organized  against   the  bar    48:17  =  GARV’s  participation  in  Democratic  Party  politics  (1972)     Part  Two  (41:47):   0:00  =  more  on  GARV’s  participation  in  Democratic  Party  politics  (1972)   6:08  =  relationships  between  the  gay  community,  the  media,  and  the  police   12:14  =  the  gay  cruising  scene  along  Bullitt  Avenue  and  around  Elmwood  Park   17:14  =  Roanoke’s  gay  bar  scene,  c.  1973-­‐1978:  The  Last  Straw;  The  Horoscope;   Murphy’s;  The  Park   24:58  =  why  did  Roanoke  have  six  downtown  gay  bars  in  1978?   27:38  =  lack  of  lesbian  participation  in  Roanoke’s  bar  scene   28:47  =  involvement  in  Democratic  Party  politics  into  the  1980s   32:05  =  reflections  on  Anita  Bryant,  and  the  gay  community’s  reaction  to  her  anti-­‐ gay  political  campaign  (late  1970s)     1   �35:53  =  reflections  on  changes  over  time  in  the  gay  community  from  the  1970s  to   today             Part  One  (53:41  total)     0:00   [checking  sound  levels  ~  15  sec.]     0:15   GR:  So,  my  name  is  Gregory  Rosenthal.  I’m  sitting  here  with  Daniel  Jones  on   February  20,  2016  as  part  of  the  Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ  History  Project  oral   history  initiative,  and…  is  there  anything  else  I’m  supposed  to  say?  And  we’re  sitting   here  at  Roanoke  College  in  the  former  Farmer’s  Bank  building  on  Main  Street,  which   is  now  the  History  Department.     So,  if  you  could  maybe  just  start  off  by  telling  us  your  name  and  where  you  grew  up?     0:51   DJ:  My  name’s  Daniel  Jones.  I  grew  up  in  Roanoke.  I’ve  lived  in  Roanoke  all  my  life,   except  for  a  short  time  away  at  school.  Worked  for  the  city  of  Roanoke  for  many   years,  public  library.  Attended  Roanoke  College.       1:10   GR:  So  you  grew  up  in  the  late  ‘40s,  ‘50s?  What  can  you  say  about  your  childhood?     1:18   DJ:  Grew  up  in  Southeast  Roanoke,  the  blue-­‐collar  community  surrounding  the   Viscose  plant.  We  had  very  little,  but  we…  we  had  a  roof  over  a  heads  and  food  to   eat,  and  what  we  needed.  Maybe  not  what  we  wanted,  but  what  we  needed.  There   were  times  in  Southeast  in  the  ‘50s  that  were  rough.  Hard  on  a  lot  of  people,  because   of  the  Viscose  plant  closing.1  But  eventually  it  came  out…  Southeast  was  always  cut   off,  and  kind  of  Roanoke’s  stepchild  for  many  years.       2:05   GR:  What  were  your  parents  like?  What  kind  of  work  did  they  do?     2:09   DJ:  My  parents  were  very  typical  of  Roanoke.  Neither  were  born  here.  My  father  was   from  Franklin  County.  Very  little  education  at  all,  could  barely  read  and  write.  My   mother  was  from  Saltville,  Smyth  County,  way  out  in  Southwest  Virginia.  Her  whole                                                                                                                   1  The  Viscose  plant  closed  its  doors  in  1958.     2   �family  moved  here  in  the  ‘20s  looking  for  work.  They  took  whatever  kind  of  work   they  could  find.  They  took  whatever  job  they  could  find  there,  whatever  they  could   earn.  We  had  a  big  garden.  We  raised  a  lot  of  what  we  ate.       2:47   GR:  Did  you  have  siblings?     2:49   DJ:  I  have  one  brother.  One  older  brother.     2:53   GR:  Were  your  folks  married  before  the  war?  Or  after?     2:56   DJ:  In  the  ‘20s.  [1926]     2:59   GR:  Oh,  goodness!  Married  in  the  1920s?     3:02   DJ:  Yeah.       3:03   GR:  And  your  brother  is  how  much  older?     3:05   DJ:  Six  years  older  than  me.     3:06   GR:  Oh,  okay.  Wow.  So  he  was  born  just  before  the  war.       3:11   DJ:  My  mother  got  a  ration  book  for  me,  and  it  was  just  the  introductory  one  before   rationing  ended.       3:20   GR:  Wow.  So,  did  you  go  to  the  public  schools?     3:25   DJ:  Public  schools.  And  graduated  from  Jefferson  High  School,  where  everybody   went  at  that  time.  You  either…  Southside  went  to  Jefferson  or  Northside  you  went  to   Fleming.  If  you’re  black  you  went  to  Lucy  Addison.       3:38   GR:  The  schools  were  still  segregated?       3   �3:41   DJ:  I’m  not  proud  of  it,  but  my  class  in  ’65  was  the  last  white  class  from  Jefferson.   The  next  class  was  segregated  [integrated].  I  remember  when  a  few  black  citizens  of   Roanoke  came  in.       3:59   GR:  So  when  you  graduated  there  were  a  few  black  students  who  had  started  but   yours  was  the  last  all-­‐white  graduating  class?  And  that  would  have  been…  do  you   recall  what  year?     4:09   DJ:  1965.     4:10   GR:  ’65.  What  was  Jefferson  High  School…  what  was  your  high  school  experience   like?     4:15   DJ:  Not  something  I’d  want  to  go  back  and  repeat.  I  was  kind  of  a  nerd.  I  was  never   athletic.  I  managed  to  find  a  group  of  people  who  were  all  book  people  and  very   much  like  me  and  that  I  was  comfortable  with.  I  was  a  pretty  good  student  so  I   always  got  along  with  teachers,  faculty.  Gym  was  a  pain.  Always.     4:48   GR:  Why?     4:49   DJ:  I  just  didn’t  fit  in.  I  felt  self-­‐conscious  about  it.  I  was  just  uncomfortable.  I  just   didn’t  like  it.  Didn’t  like  it  at  all.     4:59   GR:  When  you  were  in  high  school  did  you  have  romantic  relationships  or  was  that  a   time  that  you  started  to  think  about  your  sexuality?     5:09   DJ:  I  probably  started  thinking  about  that  when  I  was  ten  or  twelve.       5:12   GR:  Earlier?     5:13   DJ:  Oh,  yeah.  No,  never  romantic  relationships  or  anything  like  that.  I  wasn’t  “out”  as   such  in  the  meaning  of  it  at  the  time—not  the  meaning  now,  but  the  meaning  of  that   time.  Many  years  later  I  realized  that  there  was  one  guy  I  had  a  crush  on.  Didn’t   realize  it  at  the  time.  Didn’t  define  it  that  way  at  all.  Later  years,  I  thought,  oh  wow,   that’s  what  that  was  about.  Okay.     4   �   5:44   GR:  Did  you  date  any  girls?  Or  just  no  dating?     5:47   DJ:  I  ran  around  with  one  girl  when  I  was  in  high  school.  I  think  she  wanted  more,   but  I  just  liked  her  because  she  was  fun.  She  lived  in  the  neighborhood.  But  I  wasn’t   interested  in  any  more,  anything  else.       6:04   GR:  Did  you  have  prom  and  things  like  that?  Dances?     6:07   DJ:  I  didn’t  go  to  any…     6:08   GR:  Didn’t  go?     6:08   DJ:  No.     6:09   GR:  So  you  said  you  were  bookish  and  nerdy?       6:12   DJ:  Yeah.     6:15   GR:  So  then,  did  you  know  that  you  wanted  to  go  to  college  afterwards?     6:23   DJ:  Oh  yeah.       6:24   GR:  What  was  that  process  like?  Did  your  parents  encourage  you  to  go?     6:28   DJ:  My  parents  were  always,  “whatever  you  want  to  do  is  up  to  you.  We  will  try  to   help  you  in  whatever  way  we  can.”  And,  at  first  I  applied  to  various  schools  around   different  places.  Got  accepted  to  a  couple.  Started  to  go  to  one  in  North  Carolina,  but   didn’t.  And  then  applied  to  Roanoke  College,  which  turned  out  fine.  And  there  was   no  money,  so  I  was  a  day  student.  I  came  in  for  classes  here  for  the  four  years.   Worked  part-­‐time.  I  started  working  at  the  public  library  in  1963.     7:13   GR:  In  high  school?     5   �   7:14   DJ:  In  high  school,  yeah.  And  I  worked  all  through  my  college  years  here,  either  part-­‐ time  or  full-­‐time  in  summers.  We  had  to  have  the  money.       7:25   GR:  So  you’ve  worked  at  the  Roanoke  Public  Library  for  a  long  time?     7:29   DJ:  Yeah.     7:30   GR:  So,  you  said  you  went  to  a  school  in  North  Carolina  and  then  you  dropped  out,  or   transferred,  or…  ?     7:40   DJ:  I  finished  Roanoke  College  and  then  I  went  to  UNC-­‐Chapel  Hill  for  graduate   school.  For  a  Masters  Degree  there.       7:48   GR:  Oh,  okay.  Let’s  go  back  to  Roanoke  College.  You  enrolled  in  ’65?       7:55   DJ:  Yeah.     7:56   GR:  So  what  was  Roanoke  College  like  in  the  late  ‘60s?     8:00   DJ:  It  was  very  nice.  I  met  the  first  gym  teacher  who  was  a  human.  There  were  none   before  that  who  were  human.  And  that  was  Coach  Fox.  I  can’t  remember  his  first   name.  He’s  probably  still  well  remembered  here.  He  was  a  good  man.  A  really  good   man.  There  were  a  lot  of  required  courses  then  that  I’m  sure  are  not  required  now.   Chapel,  Gym,  one  year,  and  all  of  that  stuff.  It  was  a  good  experience.  Most  of  the   teachers  were  very  good,  and  I  liked  [them].  There  were  a  few  that  weren’t.  I  found   the  environment  very  pleasant.  Met  some  friends,  met  some  people  here,  all  of   whom  were  day  students.  One  of  whom  is  still  a  very  close  friend  of  mine.  Talked  to   him  this  morning.  Courses  were  not  easy.  I  wasn’t  expecting  that.  I  enjoyed  them.  I   did.  A  couple  of  the  professors  in  particular  that  stand  out  in  my  mind:  Homer  Bast.   And  Professor  Poindexter.  I  can’t  remember  his  first  name  [Harry  Poindexter]..  I   remember  those  two  very,  very  well,  that  I  really  liked,  really  respected.       9:37   GR:  What  did  you  major  in?     9:38     6   �DJ:  History.     9:39   GR:  History?  What  did  you  hope  to  do  with  that?  Do  you  remember  what  you  were   thinking  at  the  time?     9:48   DJ:  At  the  time,  that’s  what  I  was  interested  in,  what  I  have  always  been  interested   in.  It  just  consumed  me.  As  time  went  on,  the  boss  I  had  at  the  library  at  the  time   was  very  supportive  of  me,  and  tried  directing  me  into  getting  a  library  degree.  And   as  time  went  on,  that  began  to  appeal  to  me  more  and  more.  The  job  possibilities  at   that  time  were  very,  very  good.  You  could  have  gone  anywhere  in  the  country  and   gotten  a  job  just  by  walking  in  the  door  if  you  had  that  Masters  Degree.  She  became   very  supportive  of  me.  Worked  my  hours  around  my  classes,  so  that  I  could  work   part-­‐time.  Helped  me  get  a  grant  from  the  state  to  go  to  graduate  school.  Otherwise  I   could  not  have  gone.  Held  a  job  open  for  me  until  I  got  back.  I  owe  her  a  lot.  I  owe   her  a  lot.       10:53   GR:  So  when  you  were  a  student  at  Roanoke  College  you  were  a  day  student?  You   commuted?  Or  did  you  ever  live  on  campus?     11:00   DJ:  No.       11:01   GR:  What  was  the  social  scene  like?  I  imagine  it  was  probably  a  different  experience   for  students  who  lived  on  campus?  Did  you  feel  socially  integrated  into  the  campus?     11:12   DJ:  No.  And  that’s  something  that  I  really  missed.  I  have  always  regretted  that  I   didn’t  go  away  to  a  school  and  have  that  four  years.  Because  even  when  I  went  to   Chapel  Hill,  that  year  that  I  was  there  was  so  influential  in  my  life  that  I  really  look   back  and  say  “what  would  those  four  years  have  been  like  if  I  had  been  away  at   school?”  But  you  can’t  look  back.  It  was  the  necessity.  There  was  not  much  of   another  choice.  Financially,  it  would  have  been  very  difficult  to  do.  My  parents   helped  in  everyway  they  could,  and  I  lived  at  home,  and  worked  part-­‐time.  That  was   the  only  way  I  could  do  it.       12:02   GR:  So  you  graduated  in  ’69?  May,  I  assume.  So  that’s  one  month  before  the   Stonewall  incident  in  New  York  City.       12:17   DJ:  Yeah,  I’ve  still  got  the  ring.  [Daniel  Jones  shows  Gregory  Rosenthal  his  1969   Roanoke  College  class  ring,  which  he  is  wearing  on  his  finger]     7   �   12:20   GR:  [looking  at  ring]  Roanoke  College  ring.  In  college,  was  there  any  sense  of,  or   were  there  any  kind  of  gay  students  on  campus?  Or  did  you  have  any  experiences  [in   which]  you  learned  more  about  your  own  romantic  or  sexual  life?  Or  was  it  still  all   closeted?     12:43   DJ:  Yeah,  I  was  aware  of  guys  around  that  I  thought  were  attractive.  Some  I  really   liked  looking  at.  I  watched  for  them  on  campus.  But  I  wasn’t  really  aware,  or  have   put  it  all  together  at  that  point,  and  I  didn’t  know  anything  about  a  gay  community   or  anything  like  that  at  the  time.  [Addition  to  the  transcript:  Daniel  Jones  clarifies   that  it  was  in  1966  that  he  discovered  the  gay  community  in  downtown  Roanoke.   His  grades  were  good  freshman  year,  but  then  dropped  sophomore  year  after  that.]     13:14   GR:  And  you  went  off  to  UNC  that  fall  then?     13:18   DJ:  Yeah.       13:19   GR:  And  did  one  year  you  said?     13:21   DJ:  Yeah.  At  that  time  they  were  cramming  the  whole  degree  into  one  year.  Two   semesters  and  then  two  summer  sessions.  And  if  you  really  pushed  it  you  could  get   it  all  into  one  year.     13:37   GR:  When  you  were  in  Chapel  Hill  was  there  any  sense  of  gay  liberation  happening?     13:44   DJ:  Oh  yeah.       13:44   GR:  Is  that  when  you  first  started  to  hear  about  it?     13:47   DJ:  No.  I  figured  things  out  about  1966.  By  the  time  I  got  to  Chapel  Hill  I  had  already   made  friends  in  Roanoke.  I  had  already  found  a  gay  community  in  Roanoke.  I  had   already  went  to  the  Tradewinds.  And  some  of  those  friends  are  still  friends.  The   ones  that  are  still  alive,  and  most  of  them  are  not.  So  when  I  went  to  Chapel  Hill  it   was  like,  here  was  this  whole  gay  community  there  that  was  very  “out.”  I  mean  it   was  just  everywhere.  A  close  friend  of  mine  from  here  was  actually  living  in  Chapel     8   �Hill  at  the  time.  I  was  there  during  the  Kent  State  strike.2  I  was  very  conservative   politically.  I  went  very  conservative.  Came  back  not.  I  remember  looking  out  my   dorm  window  and  watching  them  march,  with  torches.  Thousands  of  students.  And  I   was  just  in  turmoil  with  what  was  going  on,  with  what  they  were  doing.  Because  my   previous  political  feelings  and  leanings,  you  know,  were  opposed  to  this.  And  yet   this  affected  me  so  much  that  I  really  changed.  It  really  changed  me.  And  the   experience  of  being  at  Chapel  Hill.  Chapel  Hill,  of  all  places,  it’s  like  this  little  oasis  in   this  horrible  hinterland  of  North  Carolina.  Jesse  Helms  and  all.  [U.S.  Senator]  Jesse   Helms  remarked  one  time  that  a  wall  should  be  built  around  Chapel  Hill  and  nobody   should  be  let  out.  He  did  say  something  along  those  lines,  and  he  had  a  point.  You   spend  too  much  time  at  Chapel  Hill,  you  can’t  leave.  You’re  spoiled.  And  a  lot  of   people  I  knew  there  and  met  there  actually  said  that.  That  was  the  feeling.  It  was  just   a  really  nice  place.       16:15   GR:  So  you’re  saying,  it  was  a  sort  of  progressive  Mecca  for  young  people,  or  maybe   a  proving  ground  for  becoming  politicized?     16:26   DJ:  It  was  just  a  wide  open  nice  feeling.  Very  broad  minded,  very  open.  One  example:   campus  faced  up  onto  Franklin  Street,  the  main  street  through  Chapel  Hill.  That’s  the   old  part  of  campus,  it  goes  back  many,  many  years.  Eighteenth  century  [it]  started.   Across  the  street  from  the  main  part  was  a  Post  Office  and  in  front  of  that  Post  Office   there  was  an  anti-­‐war  demonstration,  had  been  going  on  for  a  long  time.  And  all  of   the  people  in  that  protest  were  sixty  plus  [years  old],  gray  hair,  whatever,  with  signs   and  whatnot,  and  that’s  what  Chapel  Hill  was.  That’s  the  way  Chapel  Hill  was  then.  I   guess  it  still  is.     17:31   GR:  I  wonder  if  we  can  go  back,  just  a  little  bit,  because  you  said  before  you  went  to   Chapel  Hill  you  had  found  a  gay  community  here,  you  had  been  to  Tradewinds.  So   that  was  during  your  college  years,  so,  to  clarify,  it  sounds  like  the  college  was  not  an   open  place  in  your  time  here,  but  in  the  city  you  found  community?     17:55   DJ:  I  wasn’t  on  campus  enough  because  I  came  in,  I  took  classes,  I  socialized  with  a   few  people  that  I  got  to  know  waiting  between  classes  and  whatnot,  and  then  I  had   to  leave.  And  so  I  never  found  anything  like  that  on  campus  here.  I  found  it  in   Roanoke,  downtown  Roanoke,  which  was  just  wide  open  then.  Really  was.       18:25                                                                                                                   2  In  the  aftermath  of  the  shooting  and  killing  of  four  students  at  Kent  State  University  by  the  Ohio   National  Guard  on  May  4,  1970,  college  students  across  the  country  went  on  strike.  It  was  the  largest   student  strike  in  U.S.  history.     9   �GR:  Tell  me  about  it  being  “wide  open.”  Besides  Tradewinds,  was  there  other   meeting  places?     18:32   DJ:  Elmwood  Park,  Bullitt  Avenue,  Greyhound  bus  station.  There  was  a  place  on   Jefferson  Street  called  Elmwood  Diner,  which  was  great.  Neat  little  place.  If  it  was   there  now  it  would  be  such  a  hot  little  place,  because  it  was  a  typical  dining  car   thing.  Booths,  bar,  whole  bit.  Blue  and  brushed  aluminum.  It  was  great.  Jefferson   Street:  the  whole  street,  all  through  town,  you  just  walk.  There  were  other  places  at   other  times,  but  that  was  basically  the  area  and  the  place.       19:20   GR:  So  you’re  saying  you  could  walk  up  and  down  Jefferson  and  meet  other  gay   men?     19:23   DJ:  Yeah.     19:24   GR:  In  the  evening?     19:26   DJ:  From  noon  on.     19:27   GR:  From  noon  on?     19:28   DJ:  Yeah.       19:30   GR:  And,  well,  tell  me  about  what  was  Tradewinds  like  before  gay  liberation?  Before   the  whole…  we’ll  get  to  talking  about  that...  before  you  guys  were  there  with  the   organization.  What  was  it  like  in  the  ‘60s?     19:50   DJ:  People  look  back  at  that  time,  that  didn’t  live  through  it,  and  they  think  it  was  all   dark  and  it  was  all  bad  and  it  was  all  hiding  in  the  shadows,  well  it  wasn’t.  I  recently   read  something  about—which  I  will  bring  you  at  some  point—something  an  English   author  named  James  Kirkup,  an  English  poet,  wrote  in  one  of  his  autobiographies   about…  [switching  back  to  the  original  subject]  We  put  up  with  a  whole  lot,  and  a  lot   went  on,  and  there  was  a  lot  we  had  to  deal  with  that  we  didn’t  like.  But  during  that   whole  thing  we  were  laughing  our  butts  off  and  having  a  ball.  A  whole  lot  went  on   underneath  the  public’s  notice,  underneath  the  straight  society’s  notice.  You   changed  pronouns  from  time  to  time.  People  went  by  pseudonyms  of  one  sort  or   another.  You  had  Elmwood  Park  was  “Ellen  Woods.”  And  you’d  go  to  Ellen  Woods.     10   �You  could  say  that  anywhere  and  if  someone  questioned  it,  “oh  yeah,  well  Ellen…   you  know  Ellen.”  So  there  was  that  kind  of  stuff.  But  people  say  that  was  terrible  you   had  to  do  that.  That  was  terrible.  Yes  it  was.  But  it  was  fun.  It  was  kind  of  like  being  a   part  of  a  secret  society.  Like,  I  suggested  one  time  to  a  person:  you  go  anywhere  in   the  country  and  there  was  a  lodge,  just  like  the  Elks  or  the  Moose,  or  any  of  the   others.  There  was  a  lodge,  anywhere  you  wanted  to  go,  there  was  a  community   there.  You  may  have  to  hunt  for  them,  but  they  were  there.       The  Tradewinds  was  a  nice  little  bar.  It  was  down  in  the  basement.  It  wasn’t  very   large,  but  quite  often  it  was  packed.  The  Georges  who  ran  it  were  up  and  down  with   what  they  would  allow,  not  allow.  Drag  was  only  allowed  on  Halloween.  There  were   also  ABC  [Virginia  Department  of  Alcoholic  Beverage  Control]  laws  which  they  had   to  follow.  We  didn’t  quite  realize  exactly  what  those  were,  and  how  much  that   influenced  what  they  said  we  could  or  could  not  do.  But  those  were  part  of  it.  It  was   mixed,  men  and  women.  Which  was  nice.  We  sat  together.  We  partied  together.   There  was  no  age  differentiation.  You  might  go  in  and  sit  down  at  a  table.  The   person  at  one  end  might  be  seventy  or  more.  The  person  at  the  other  end  might  be   eighteen.  You  might  be  good  friends.  And  you  might  party  together.  And  there   wasn’t  that  ageist  business.  Looking  back,  there  were  no  blacks.  Blacks  were  not   allowed.  Did  not  come  in.  I  don’t  recall  ever  seeing  anyone  black.  That’s  something  I   will  need  to  ask  somebody  about.  I  don’t  know  if  it  was  a  policy  of  the  Tradewinds,   the  Georges,  or  not.  But,  the  ‘60s  was  just  this  point  when  things  were  changing.  So,   they  may  simply  just  not  have  been  welcome.  And  very  well  may  not  have  been.  I   didn’t  think  about  it  at  the  time.  Later,  I  found  that  very  distasteful.  All  the  bars  later   were  mixed.     23:38   GR:  Let  me  ask  one  more  thing  about  Tradewinds,  and  then  we  can  come  back  to   Tradewinds  after  you  came  back  from  Chapel  Hill,  and  ask  about  how  it  has  changed   over  time.  But  still  talking  about  the  ‘60s,  and  you  mentioned  that  the  bar  was  in  the   basement,  do  you  feel  like  the  straight  community  knew…  well,  I’ve  heard  different   things  and  you  can  correct  me,  whether  there  was  a  back  alley  entrance  for  the  gay   bar,  versus  was  there  a  straight  restaurant?  Do  you  think  the  straight  community   knew  about  the  gay  part?  Did  the  Georges  family  try  to  keep  those  two  things   separate?       24:24   DJ:  Okay,  if  you  say  that  you  had  to  park  in  the  back,  and  go  in  the  back  door,  that’s   because  that’s  where  you  parked.  There  wasn’t  any  other  place  to  park.  It  was   Franklin  Road.  There  was  no  parking  out  front,  so  you  had  to  park  in  the  back.  If  you   were  going  to  the  ground-­‐floor  restaurant,  which  had  been  there  for  many,  many   years,  you  parked  in  the  back  as  a  rule  because  there  was  no  other  place.  So   everybody  went  in  the  back.  I  guess  some  people  did  maybe  walk  around  and  go  in   the  front  door  or  something,  or  maybe  park  somewhere  else  and  walk  over  or   something,  but  I  don’t  recall  ever  going  in  the  front  door.  And  there  was  a  staircase   that  went  down  to  the  basement  from  the  front.  I  don’t  recall  anybody…  well,  maybe     11   �once  in  a  while  I  recall  maybe  some  police  coming  in  one  time,  coming  down  that   staircase,  but  that’s  because  they  didn’t  know  how  to  get  in.  But  no,  you  just  parked   in  the  back  because  that’s  where  the  lot  was.  That  was  convenient.  As  far  as  what  the   people  upstairs  knew—straight  people  knew—I  don’t  know.  I  don’t  know.  There   was  never  any  hassle,  any  problem,  or  anything  like  that.  Some  of  us  would   sometimes—I  never  really  did,  but  I  knew  people  who  did—go  upstairs  and  order   food  and  stuff.       25:53   GR:  Elmwood  Diner.  Was  that  a  place  where  gays  would  hang  out  in  one  booth  and   there  might  be  straight  people  in  the  next  booth  over?  Very  mixed?       26:04   DJ:  Yeah.  Mixed  during  the  daytime,  but  in  the  evenings  it  was  mostly  gay.  Because   people  were  either  in  Elmwood  Park  or  on  Bullitt  Avenue  or  something,  sometimes   on  foot,  or  you’d  park  on  Bullitt  and  walk  up  to  the  diner  where  you  could  either  get   food  or  coffee  or  beer  or  whatever.  There  were  some  of  us  who  went  there  a  lot.   Others  never  went  there.  I  can  remember  sitting  over  there  one  time  during  the  day   and  afternoon  or  something,  and  talking  with  two  guys  who  were  considerably   older  than  me,  and  just  be  delighting  in  their  conversation.  One  of  them  in  particular   had  this  witty  charm  about  him,  and  had  lived  in  a  number  of  different  places  and   everything,  and  he  was  just  fun  to  listen  to.  Telling  tales  about  being  in  New  Orleans   at  a  place  called  the  My-­‐O-­‐My  Club,  which  is  very  well  documented.  And  I  don’t   know  what  he  was  doing  there,  or  why,  or  anything,  but  I  can  still  remember  those   two  in  particular.  I  don’t  know  their  names.  But  they’re  both  gone.       27:37   GR:  So  when  you  went  to  UNC  you  became  politicized,  you  say.  During  that  year   were  you  involved  with  any  gay  activism?  Was  there  a  gay  liberation  group  there?   Was  there  any  of  that  conversation  going  on?  Or  was  it  more  just  the  anti-­‐war   movement  and  those  kinds  of  things?     28:04   DJ:  I’m  not  aware  of  any  gay  group  there.  There  may  have  been,  but  I  am  not  aware   of  it.  The  anti-­‐war  thing,  the  whole  Kent  State  thing,  created  so  much  turmoil.  The   school  closed  down  for  a  while.  Shut  down.  Some  buildings  were  picketed.  To  get  to   class  you  had  to  choose  whether  you  wanted  to  cross  that  picket  line  or  not.  I  did   cross  it  a  few  times.  I  felt  bad  about  doing  it.  To  this  day  I  won’t  cross  a  picket  line  of   any  kind  for  any  reason.  I  just  won’t  do  it.  Cause  I  had  friends  who  were  on  the  other   side.  I  remember  one  woman  in  particular  that  I  really  liked  a  whole  lot,  and  saw  a   lot,  because  she  was  in  the  library  school,  too.  We  got  in  some  really  heated   arguments  and  things,  and  it  changed  our  relationship.  I  regretted  that.  It  just   changed  my  whole  perception,  my  whole  belief  system.  An  experience  I  wouldn’t   trade  for  anything.       29:28     12   �GR:  So  did  you  move  back  to  Roanoke  in  summer  of  1970?  You  just  spent  one  year  in   Chapel  Hill?  Or,  what  did  you  do  after  Chapel  Hill?     29:42   DJ:  Would  have  been  the  fall  of  ’66,  spring  of  ’67?     29:49   GR:  You  graduated  from  Roanoke  in  ’69.     29:52   DJ:  ’69.  Okay,  right.  So  I  was  there  the  fall  of  ’69.  I  was  there  until  fall  of  ’70.  So  I   came  back  here  in  fall  of  ’70.  [DJ  addition  to  transcript:  It  was  definitely  fall  of  1970   that  I  came  back  to  Roanoke.]     30:04   GR:  [I’m]  wondering,  what  happened  next?  Did  you  have  a  job?  You  came  back  to…   what  was  going  on?  I  know  that  very  soon  after  that  the  Gay  Alliance  of  Roanoke   gets  going.  So,  maybe  if  you  could  walk  me  through  coming  back  from  Chapel  Hill,   how  did  you  get  from  having  a  degree  in  Library  Science  to  getting  involved  with   gay  liberation  activism?     30:37   DJ:  I  had  a  job  waiting  for  me,  so  when  I  came  back  I  had  a  job.  I  went  to  work,  and   after  a  little  while  I  had  been  living  at  home,  and,  as  I  mentioned,  I  got  on  my  own,   picked  up  with  a  lot  of  the  friends  that  I  already  had,  a  number  of  whom  I  kept  in   touch  with  while  I  was  away.  Picked  up  with  them,  met  more  people,  made  new   friends.  And  then  gradually,  I  guess  probably  maybe  a  year  later,  in  ’71,  something   like  that,  some  of  us  just  started  discussing  these  things.  We  were  becoming  aware   of  Stonewall.  We  were  becoming  aware  of  things  that  were  going  on  in  the  wider   community.  And  there  was  a  feeling  among  a  lot  of  us  that  we  had  put  up  with  a  lot,   and  there  was  a  lot  going  on  that  just  wasn’t  right,  and  gradually  a  group  of  us  had   just  gelled,  and  we  decided  to  start…  and  it  started  with  just  conversations,  sort  of   just  gatherings  of  people  who  would  just  talk,  and  lots  of  times  at  my  apartment.   And  it  just  kind  of  came  about.       32:09   GR:  Do  you  remember  where  your  apartment  was?  Were  you  in  Old  Southwest?       32:12   DJ:  Yeah,  Old  Southwest.  Old  Southwest  was  very  much  the  “gay  ghetto,”  so  to  speak.   I’ve  always  said  that  it  was  the  gay  community  who  preserved  Old  Southwest  until  it   could  be  turned  around,  and  gotten  out  of  the  hands  of  the  slumlords.       32:32   GR:  So,  do  you  recall  anything  about  this  early  group?  As  you  were  founding  it,  in   terms  of,  who  was  involved?  Was  it  a  mix  of  men  and  women?  Was  it  mostly  men?     13   �Was  it  mostly  college-­‐age  or  just  people  in  their  twenties?  What  was  your  sense  of   the  early  group?     32:56   DJ:  Most  of  the  people  involved  were  young.  Twenties,  early  twenties,  mid-­‐twenties.   Education  level  was  a  wide  gammit.  There  were  some  women  involved.  There  was  a   real  divide  in  the  community  at  that  time  between…  they  were  termed  the  “park   people”  and  the  “bar  people.”  The  two  would  cross  paths,  I  mean  I  went  to  the  bar  at   the  time,  I  hung  out  at  the  park  all  the  time,  and  went  back  in  forth  between  the  two,   but  there  was  a  difference  between  the  two,  and  it  was  a  socio-­‐economic  difference   as  much  as  anything.  Because  there  was  a  group  of  people  who  went  to  the  bar  all   the  time,  older,  more  established,  better  off  economically.  And  it  dawned  on  me  one   day  that  they  had  more  to  lose.  They  never  supported  us.  The  people,  the  other   group,  supported  us.  They  were  the  people  who  included  a  lot  of  drag  queens,  or  just   a  lot  of  people  who  did  drag  as  a  lark  from  time  to  time,  people  who  were  either   unemployed  or  employed  in  low-­‐level  jobs.  Now  that’s  not  to  say  everybody  was.   There  was  a  wide  variety.  But  it  was  socially  a  different  kind  of  people,  a  different   group  of  people.  And  they  did  support  us.  But  getting  support  from  the  community   as  a  whole  was  very,  very  difficult.  We  never  had  any  money.  It  was  hard  to  raise   money.  We  always  passed  the  hat.  Tried  to  get  nickels  and  dimes.  We  came  up  with   a  method  of  putting  on  these  parties,  and  a  friend  of  mine  put  this  together  and  he   came  to  me  and  said  “we  can  do  this  party  and  charge  an  admission  charge  of  five   bucks  a  head  and  we  can  give  them  free  booze  and  we’ll  come  out  ahead.”  And  I  said   “you  can’t  do  that.  You  can’t  do  that.”  And  he  said  “sure  we  can.”  And  we  did  it.  A   couple  times.  And  made  money,  got  into  some  trouble  from  the  people  who  owned   the  apartment  complex  where  the  room  was  [that]  we  were  using,  but  that  passed.       35:31   GR:  There’s  also  the  “trash  flash”  that  I  read  about  in  the  Big  Lick  Gayzette.  You  were   collecting  recyclables  in  the  parking  lot  behind  Tradewinds?     35:40   DJ:  Yeah.  We  tried  that,  just  as  a  way  to  raise  anything,  raise  money,  and  that  never   really  worked  very  well.  We  did  that  a  couple  of  times.  One  of  the  things  that  we  did   was  getting  the  use  of  St.  James  Episcopal  Church  as  a  meeting  place.  We  met  in  my   apartment  for  a  while,  and  it  got  [to  be]  too  many  people,  and  we  were  looking  for  a   place.  One  of  our  people  who  worked  very  closely  with  it,  is  a  guy  whose  name  I  can   mention.  I  know  he’s  gone  and  he  would  not  mind.  His  name  is  Lee  Cruise.  He  was   always  very  supportive  and  very  active  and  very  much  a  part  of  everything.  He  had   attended  St.  James  Episcopal  Church  and  knew  the  pastor  there.  So  he  contacted  him   and  talked  to  him  and  we,  Lee  and  I,  went  and  met  the  vestry.  It  was  the  first  time  I   had  ever  come  out  to  a  straight  group  like  that.  Totally  scared  to  death.  Did  not   know  what  kind  of  reception  we  would  get,  but  I  can  remember  it  very,  very  clearly.   But  we  went.  They  were  very  nice.  They  were  very  polite.  They  asked  us  pertinent   kinds  of  questions.  They  didn’t  ask  us  the  kind  of  salacious  sort  of  crap  that  you   always  anticipate  they’re  gonna  ask.  They  didn’t.  They  asked  us  how  big  the     14   �organization  was,  how  many  people  we’d  have,  how  long  it  had  been  going,  where   did  we  get  revenue,  how  our  meetings  were  conducted.  They  asked  very  pertinent   kinds  of  things.  And  they  treated  us  with  respect.  Lee  and  I  came  out  of  this  with  [a   feeling  of]  “wow,  this  was  a  cool  experience!”  It  really  was.  We  got  word  a  week  or   so  later  that  we  could  use  the  parish  hall.  They  gave  us  a  key.  We  never  saw  them   again.  So,  we  would  show  up  on  Sunday  afternoons,  unlock  the  parish  hall,  prop  the   door  open.  We  had  run  of  the  place.  And  we  stayed  out  of  the  other  part  of  the   church.  We  found  out  just  by  going  through  these  doors  that  the  whole  place  was   wide  open  to  us.  But  we  made  a  point  of  staying  right  where  we  were  supposed  to   be.  Never  hassled,  never  bothered,  never  any  problems  at  all.  There’s  a  whole  series   of  letters  to  the  editor—this  is  all  in  the  newspaper,  all  about  this.  Our  names   weren’t,  but  a  lot  of  this  is  in  the  newspaper.  And  there  were  a  number  of  articles   about  the  fact  that  the  gay  group  had  gotten  started,  about  this  at  St.  James,  and   several  members  of  St.  James  got  really  upset  and  quit  the  church.  The  church  just   said  “bye”  to  them.  But  there’s  a  record  of  a  lot  of  that  in  the  newspaper  articles.  I’ve   got  all  those.  And  we  met  there  for  a  long  time.  It  was  a  good  meeting  place.  It  was.     39:06   GR:  So  did  the  Gay  Alliance  of  Roanoke  Valley—did  you  ever  use  Tradewinds  as  a   meeting  place?       39:14   DJ:  No.     39:14   GR:  So  tell  me  about…  and  I  know  your  relationship  with  Tradewinds  was  rocky…   but  tell  me  about,  well  I’m  thinking  about  your  relationship  with  the  Gay  Activists   Alliance  in  New  York  City,  or  some  of  these  other  larger  groups…  So  what  is  the   story  behind  that  of  Morty  [Manford]  and  Lew  [of  the  Gay  Activists  Alliance]  coming   down,  because  they  came  and  met  you  at  Tradewinds?     39:38   DJ:  Yeah.       39:39   GR:  So  when  you  were  a  part  of  founding  the  GARV  [Gay  Alliance  of  the  Roanoke   Valley]  were  you  in  communication  with  them  in  New  York  and  invited  them  down,   or  did  they  find  you?     39:51   DJ:  There’s  stuff  written  about  that  book  in  some  of  the  histories.3  It  might  be  James   Sears’  books,  but  I’m  not  sure  [DJ  addition  to  the  transcript:  I’m  not  sure  it  is  in  James   Sears’s  books,  but  there  is  some  history  written  somewhere  about  John  Francis  Hunter                                                                                                                   3  The  book  in  question  is  John  Francis  Hunter,  The  Gay  Insider:  USA  (New  York:  Stonehill  Publishing,   1972).     15   �and  how  that  book  came  together.  Look  at  1960s-­‐era  Damron  guide  book,  a  gay  guide   book  that  may  have  listed  The  Tradewinds  back  in  the  1960s].  I’ve  read  about  it  in   stuff.  They  [two  Gay  Activists  Alliance  (GAA)  members]  were  traveling  around  the   country  to  a  lot  of  place.  I  found  in  our  files  a  thing  from  the  publisher  [of  The  Gay   Insider]  asking  to  fill  out  information  about  what  gay  places  were  in  the  community,   and  all  this  kind  of  stuff,  and  it  was  all  filled  out  and  everything.  I  assume  we  sent  it   in,  but  I  can’t  verify  that  we  did.  But  I  found  that  in  the  files.  They  [the  two  GAA   activists]  showed  up  one  night.  We  were  not  in  any  kind  of  communication  with   them.  We  got  literature  and  various  kinds  of  things,  newspapers  from  New  York,   D.C.,  all  this  kind  of  stuff.  We  traded  with  a  lot  of  publications  all  around.  So  we  got   information,  news,  from  all  over.  We  got  our  name  out  all  over.  They  showed  up  one   night  and  one  of  the  people  I  was  sitting  with  recognized  one  of  them  from  having   seen  his  picture  in  one  of  the  newspapers,  took  a  shine  to  him.  And  sometimes  a  lot   of  times  at  the  Tradewinds,  strangers  come  in  and  you  knew  people  were  strangers.   You  just  knew.  So  a  lot  of  times  you’d  go  over  and  just  invite  them  to  join  in  or   something,  and  I  saw  it  happen  any  number  of  times.  So  that’s  what  we  did.  We  just   invited  them  to  join  us.  And  we  found  out  who  they  were,  and  talked  to  them  and   everything.  Yes,  we  were  excited  about  meeting  them.  Yes,  we  were  interested  in   what  they  were  doing,  and  what  their  experience  [was]  and  whatnot,  and  we  were   telling  them  about  what  we  were  thinking  about  doing  here,  but  throw  rose  petals?   No.  No,  I’m  sorry.  Part  of  it  was  just  Southern  hospitality.  Part  of  it  was  curiosity   about  what  they  were  doing,  and  what  was  going  on  with  them.  Fun,  excited  about   meeting  them.  And  part  of  it  was  some  lust.  So,  that’s  what  it  was  all  about.  And   when  that  book  came  out  and  I  read  what  they  said  about  us  it  just…  it’s  always   annoyed  me.  Well,  I  remember  that  night.  I  remember  it  very  clearly.       42:27   GR:  I  want  to  ask  another  question  about  maybe  what  your  group  learned  from  the   Gay  Activists  Alliance?  Or,  what  sort  of  influences  there  may  have  been,  for  example   the  use  of  the  Lambda  symbol,  which  it  seems  you  used  which  the  Activists  Alliance   in  New  York  was  also  prominently  using,  or  the  use  of  the  “zap”  as  a  sort  of  direct   action?  Cause  I  know  from  the  Big  Lick  Gayzette  there  was  a  “zap”  on  Tradewinds.   That  was  a  technique  that  the  Gay  Activists  Alliance  in  New  York  City  had  done.  Was   the  Lambda  symbol,  “zap,”  things  like  this…  were  you  aware  that  these  were   influences  that  you  were  taking  on  locally  from  national….?     43:14   DJ:  Oh  yeah.  That’s  the  reason  they  were  adopted.  And  I  guess  that’s  where  we  got   the  term  “zap.”  You  know,  a  lot  of  that  was  part  of  the  whole  counter-­‐cultural  thing   at  the  time:  the  anti-­‐war  movement  and  all  that  kind  of  thing.  We  were  reading  the   literature  that  was  coming  from  New  York  and  San  Francisco,  whatever.  By  trading   all  these  publications  we  were  also  getting  some  of  the  newspapers  and  stuff,   various  ones  of  us  were.  So  we  were  kind  of  aware  of  a  lot  of  things  going  on,  and  a   lot  of  what  was  happening  outside  of  Roanoke.  We  weren’t  completely  insular,  like   Roanoke  has  a  tendency  to  be.  You  know  “there’s  no  world  out  there.  It’s  just  here.”         16   �44:02   GR:  Do  you  remember  that  incident  at  Tradewinds?  The  “zap”?4  So  what  was  that   about?       44:09   DJ:  I  don’t  remember  exactly  what  promoted  it.  The  people  who  ran  the  bar,  owned   the  bar,  would  from  time  to  time  be  very  arbitrary  about  rules  they  would  lay  down,   or  things  they  would  say  or  do.  They’d  get  mad  at  somebody  and  bar  them  from   coming  in.  Back  in  the  early  ‘60s  was  the  first  walkout  [DJ  addition  to  transcript:  this   was  in  1962  or  1963].  I  didn’t  experience  that.  They  were  handing  out  pink  slips  to   people.  Everybody  got  really  upset.  Well,  not  everybody,  but  a  lot  of  people  got   really  annoyed  with  them  and  upset  with  them  and  started  going  to  a  place  called   the  Chili  Shop  [DJ  addition  to  transcript:  a  restaurant/bar  on  Walnut  Avenue  down   near  the  river].  That  didn’t  last  very  long.  And  they  eventually  all  kind  of  filtered   back.  But  we  just  felt  like  they  were  being  unreasonable.  Felt  like  they  just   considered  that  they  had  a  clientele  that  had  no  other  place  to  go.  So,  they  were   taking  us  for  granted.  They  were  just  using  us.  Because  they  had  a  captive  audience,   so  to  speak.  So  it  was  a  lot  of  those  kinds  of  things.  So  I  remember  it  might  have  been   that  time—or  there  was  another  time  when  the  Last  Straw  opened—when  we   planned  it  and  on  a  certain  cue,  everybody  just  set  their  beer  on  the  table,  got  up,   and  walked  out.  Left  the  beer  on  the  table,  whatever,  just  got  up,  walked  out.  [DJ   addition  to  transcript:  This  was  in  1973.  It  was  an  organized  walk  out  when  gays  went   en  masse  from  Tradewinds  down  to  The  Straw,  but  it  was  not  planned  by  GARV,  which   had  already  folded  by  that  time.]  When  the  Last  Straw  opened  it  was  a  real  small   place,  but  it  was  just  jammed.  It  was  packed  to  the  point  where  you  could  hardly  get   in  the  door.  Nobody  was  going  to  the  Tradewinds.  And  their  business  just  died  at   that  point.  And  the  Straw  was  open  for  many  years,  and  then  there  were  other  bars   at  various  times.  But  Tradewinds  went  on  operating,  and  the  name  changed  a  couple   of  times,  and  they  kept  trying,  you  know.  And  a  few  people  went  there.  Some  of  the   group  that  never  really  supported  us  and  everything  continued  to  go  there.  But   pretty  much  their  business  was  gone  as  far  as  the  gay  bar  downstairs  was   concerned.     46:45   GR:  When  you  talk  about  the  part  of  the  gay  community  that  didn’t  support  what   you  were  doing…  you  said  before  that  one  characteristic  of  that  population  was  they   were  from  an  older  generation?  Is  that  how  you  would  characterize  the  people  who   said  “the  work  that  G.A.R.V.  is  doing,  that’s  crazy.”  That  was  mostly  older  folks?     47:09   DJ:  Yeah,  but  there  were  a  lot  of  the  younger  people  who  didn’t  really  support  us.   They’d  go  “yeah,  what  you’re  doing  is  great,  that’s  cool,”  and  everything,  but  they                                                                                                                   4  On  November  5,  1971,  the  Gay  Alliance  of  the  Roanoke  Valley  placed  a  “zap”  on  Tradewinds.  The   “zap”  was  a  type  of  organized  protest  first  employed  by  the  Gay  Activists  Alliance  of  New  York  City.  In   this  case,  GARV’s  “zap”  called  for  the  gay  community  to  boycott  Tradewinds  for  a  week.     17   �would  never  come  work.  They  would  never  come  lick  an  envelope.  They  would   never  come  to  raise  money.  They  would  never  participate  in  stuff.  But  that  older   group  simply  did  not…  and,  at  that  time,  as  I  said,  the  age  groups  were  mixed  in  a  lot   of  ways.  We  all  went  to  the  same  bar.  We  all  knew  each  other.  And  this  particular   group  sat  in  one  corner  of  the  bar,  and  you  didn’t  go  and  sit  on  those  stools.  You  just   didn’t  do  it.  Because  they  were  reserved  for  this  one  group  of  people.  They  were   really  nice  guys.  I  mean,  I  knew  them  all.  Some  of  them  I  really  liked,  thought  a  lot  of,   you  know.  Later  on,  I  thought  of  it  in  terms,  they  had  a  whole  lot  to  lose.  It’s  not  that   some  of  us  didn’t,  it’s  just  that  they  thought  differently,  and  weren’t  willing  to  stick   their  neck  out  at  all  for  anything.     48:17   GR:  I  noticed—I’ve  been  reading  more  recently  the  1972  issues  of  The  Virginia   Gayzette,  which,  my  understanding  is  that  you  guys  published  the  Big  Lick  Gayzette   and  renamed  it,  which  could  be  another  question  about  why.  My  understanding  is   that  the  content  seemed  to  be  focused  on  more  statewide  or  national  outreach  after   the  change.  You  can  answer  that,  but…  the  question  I  was  thinking  of  is  that  in  1972,   which  is  a  presidential  election  year  like  we  have  now,  I  noticed  that  your  group  did   get  increasingly  involved  in  Democratic  Party  electoral  stuff.  I  wonder  if  you  can  talk   more  about  that?     49:01   GR:  About  that  time,  several  of  us—me  in  particular—met  some  people—and  I  can’t   exactly  remember  how  or  why  or  who—who  were  involved  in  politics,  particularly   with  a  candidate  named  Roy  White.  Roy  had  run  as  a  nominated  Democratic   candidate  for  Congress—1970,  I  guess—running  against  a  well-­‐established   Republican  who  was  a  good  man.  But  who  was  unbeatable,  simply  unbeatable.  He   chose  to  run.  Democrats  said  “sure,  whatever,  go  ahead,”  but  [then]  they  turned   around  and  walked  away.  So  the  next  time—’72,  I  guess—he  decided  to  run  again.   Well,  they  weren’t  going  to  nominate  him.  So  they  nominated  someone  else.  And   then  the  Republicans  nominated  their  candidate,  and  Roy  decided  to  run  as  an   independent  Democrat.  He  was  very  supportive  of  what  we  were  doing,  the  gay   group.  Some  of  the  people  who  were  working  for  him  had  to  hold  him  back,  because   “Roy,  no.  You  can’t  say  that.  You  can’t  go  out  there  and  say  that.”  And  he  said,   “arrrrgh…”  [expressing  ambivalence  or  dissidence].  A  great  guy.  Really  was.  So  we   kind  of  got  involved,  some  of  us  did.  These  people  were  really  doing  things.  They   were  really  going  forward  with  stuff.  You  didn’t  have  to  deal  with  “coming  out”  to   the  public.  So  you  had  that  kind  of  pressure  off  of  you.  Yet  the  people  we  were   working  closely  with  knew.  And  it  was  even  discussed.  It  was  talked  about.  It  was   not  a  secret  at  all,  including  with  Roy.  So  we  got  more  and  more  involved,  and  we   were  welcomed  wholeheartedly  by  a  whole  liberal  group  of  the  Democratic  Party  at   that  time,  and  it  kind  of  just  snowballed.  And,  as  more  and  more  of  us  got  involved   with  that  we  felt  like  we  could  accomplish  more.  So  I  started  preaching—I  and   several  others—really  started  preaching  to  the  gay  community,  saying  “Look.   Roanoke  is  a  Democratic  city.  Council  will  change  over  five  hundred  votes,  or  two   hundred  votes  in  some  cases.  Can’t  we  bring  two  hundred  people  to  bear  [on]     18   �something  like  this?  Can’t  we  get  involved  in  these  mass  meetings?”  Sometimes  a   mass  meeting  would  take  place  in  a  precinct.  10  people  show  up.  That’s  it.  Elect  a   precinct  captain,  [then  s/he]  goes  on  the  city  Democratic  committee.  I  got  precinct   captain  in  Old  Southwest  just  because  I  could  drag  all  these  faggots  out  of  their   houses.  I  said  “Kid,  come  in  here,  come  in  here.  Come  on.”  And  sometimes  they   didn’t  understand  why,  but  we’d  get  to  the  point  where  we’d  say  “You  know,  do  me  a   favor.  Do  me  a  favor.  Please  show  up  for  this  two  hours,”  or  something  of  this  sort.   We  found  that  the  whole  group  of  people  we  were  working  with,  and  the  friends   that  we  started  making,  that  it  just  became  something  exciting,  and  something  that   we  really  wanted  to  get  involved  with.  And  so  gradually,  the  gay  organization  kind  of   took  a  backseat,  and  eventually  just  folded  up,  and  some  of  us  just  kept  going  into   the  Democratic  thing,  and  still  called  on  the  gay  community  to  try  to  bring  people  in.   And  I  remember  one  citywide  mass  meeting  was  held  in  council  chambers,  and  me   and  a  friend  of  mine—several  of  us,  but  one  particular  friend  of  mine—worked  our   butts  off  to  get  people  out.  The  day  of  that  mass  meeting  there  was  an  attorney  there   who,  oh  God…       53:37   [At  this  point  in  the  recording  Daniel  Jones  asks  Gregory  Rosenthal  to  turn  off  the   recording  device.  This  ends  Part  1  of  the  interview.]       Part  Two  (41:47  total)     0:00   [After  a  pause  of  approximately  two  minutes  off  record,  Daniel  Jones  and  Gregory   Rosenthal  resume  the  interview.  This  begins  Part  2  of  the  interview.]   [checking  sound  levels  ~  5  sec.]     0:05   GR:  So,  it  sounded  like  you  were  saying  that  the  Gay  Alliance’s  involvement  in   electoral  politics  was  divisive  within  the  gay  community  in  some  way?  That  some   went  headfirst  into  Democratic  Party  issues  and  others  said  “that’s  not…”?     0:27   DJ:  No.  It’s  just  that  some  of  us  who  were  the  leaders,  who  were  the  ones  really   trying  to  organize  things,  and  trying  to  push  things,  we  saw  opportunity  in  that   direction.  We  saw  that  we  could  actually  influence  things  in  that  direction.  And  we   started  going  that  way.  And  then  eventually  we  stopped  producing  the  newsletter.   [DJ  addition  to  transcript:  GARV  ran  out  of  steam  producing  the  newspaper,  and  some   members  got  more  involved  in  electoral  politics,  but  also  GARV  was  threatened  with  a   lawsuit  over  the  name  Virginia  Gayzette,  and  for  that  reason  ceased  publication  of  the   paper.]  We  stopped  having  the  meetings.  Because  we  just  weren’t  going  anywhere.   We  didn’t  feel  like  we  were  getting  anywhere.  And  the  people  that  we  were  working   with,  the  coalition,  at  the  time,  of  liberals,  union  people—who  were  never  happy   with  us,  but  accepted  us,  because  we  could  vote,  so  they  swallowed  real  hard  and     19   �[would]  bite  their  tongue  and  accept  us—a  number  of  people  from  the  black   community,  as  well.  So  it  was  kind  of  a  coalition  of  people  who  would  vote  in  a   similar  fashion.  And  the  local  party  was  controlled  by  an  old  guard  conservative   kind  of  group.  The  Democratic  Party  was  still  fairly  conservative.  Well,  here  it  was   very  conservative  at  that  point.  Then  there  were  all  of  these  factions  who  were   trying  to  come  together  and  work  together,  which  would  balance  out.  And  it  was   give  and  take  who  could  control,  or  who  could  bring  the  most  votes  together,  which   was  one  of  the  reasons  that  Roy  White  challenged  this  establishment  to  the  extent   that  he  did.  They  never  supported  it.  Then,  after  that  election—of  course  he  didn’t   win.  The  Republican  won,  and  turned  out  a  Congressman  who  served  for  ten  or   fifteen  years,  and  actually  turned  out  to  be  a  very  good  Congressman.  A  little  too   conservative  for  my  tastes,  but  he  proceeded  to  do  some  things  during  the  Nixon   mess,  and  whatnot.  He  stood  up  to  some  things,  and  that’s  all  record.  All  recorded,   historical  stuff.  We  went  on  working  for  one  candidate  after  another,  and  those  of  us   who  really  got  into  working  on  political  stuff  and  everything  continued  to  do  that.   Work  with  it.  The  rest  of  the  community  just  didn’t  get  involved.  We  would  still  try   to  get  them  to  register  to  vote.  Try  to  get  across  to  them  how  important  it  was  to  go   vote.  How  much  weight  a  few  votes  would  carry  in  a  city  like  this  with  changing   council.  How,  if  we  were  known  to  be  backing  a  particular  candidate,  and  then  they   won,  that  gave  us  a  voice.  That  gave  us  the  input.  You  know,  it’s  just  like  politics   today.  Whoever  pays  the  bills,  gets  the  voice.  So,  you  know,  if  we  could  show  up  at  a   mass  meeting  like  we  did  at  that  one  at  City  Council  chambers—people  streamed  in,   and  this  one  attorney  who  was  a  good  friend  of  mine  was  there.  And  I  could  still  see   the  look  on  his  face.  We  didn’t  know  if  we  were  gonna  make  it.  This  was  citywide.   We  didn’t  know  if  we  were  gonna  make  it.  And  our  people  started  streaming  in.  And   the  look  on  his  face  changed  from  a  scowl  all  of  a  sudden  to  a  big  grin,  like  a   Cheshire  cat  grin,  cause  he  knew.  We  had  about  forty  people  out  of  two  hundred  at   that  meeting.  And  when  votes  came  along,  they  just  looked  over  to  me  and  a  friend   of  mine  who  were  kind  of  organizing  this,  and  we  just  said  [nods  his  head]  and  they’d   all  vote,  in  a  bloc.  And  it  changed  the  outcome  of  everything  that  happened  that  day.     4:30   GR:  It  sounds  like  the  liberal  coalition,  all  these  groups,  were  also  very  aware  that   you  guys  were  gays  and  lesbians  and  you  were  a  voting  bloc.  It’s  sort  of  the  first  time   that  the  gay  community  had  a  political  voice,  would  you  say?     4:48   DJ:  We  never  openly  said  that.  We  never  brought  up  things.  We  never  talked  about   issues  or  anything  like  that,  but  they  knew.  They  just  knew.  A  lot  of  them  would  have   been  very  embarrassed  about  talking  about  it.  They  would  have  been  just  real   uncomfortable,  and  a  lot  of  them…  not  some  of  the  liberals…  I  remember,  one  man,  I   wish  I  could  remember  his  name,  who  was  part  of  this  liberal  coalition.  He  was   maybe  sixty  or  so  at  the  time.  Standing  near  him  [at]  maybe  the  ’72  convention   which  was  held  here  in  Roanoke,  [the]  state  convention,  might  have  been  that,   somewhere,  sometime,  and  he  looking  over  at  me  and  talking  to  me,  saying     20   �something  to  me,  and  he  said  “I’m  glad  y’all  are  here.  I’m  glad  y’all  are  here.”  And  it   really  pleased  me.  It  really  pleased  me.  Made  me  feel  good.     5:50   GR:  So  the  Gay  Alliance  did  not  survive  the  election?  It  just  dissolved?     5:56   DJ:  At  that  point  it  pretty  well  just  folded  up.  Just  kind  of  dissipated  into  the  air.       6:08   GR:  Before  I  ask  about  what  you  were  involved  in  after  the  G.A.R.V.  dissolved,  what   about  issues?  You  were  just  saying  that  you  didn’t  really  have  political  issues  that   you  brought  to  the  table  with  the  Democratic  liberal  coalition,  but  did  your  group— did  you  talk  about  and  think  of  ways,  or  engage  in  ways,  to  take  on  issues  like  the   police  harassment  of  gays  in  Elmwood  Park?  Were  the  police  cracking  down  on   cruising  at  that  time?  Or,  thinking  of  political  issues,  like  decriminalizing  the  sodomy   laws.  Were  those  kinds  of  things  on  the  plate?     6:55   DJ:  Yeah,  but  we  never  really—something  I  found  recently  sorting  all  this  stuff,  I   found  a  questionnaire  that  we  sent  to  the  state  legislators,  and  their  responses.  We   set  it  up  so  that  the  responses  could  be  anonymous,  and  we  got  quite  a  few  back.  I   was  just  looking  through  them,  and  some  of  them  where  it  says  “No.  No.  No.  No.  No.   No,”  all  the  way  down  the  line.  And  others  had  fairly  thoughtful  sorts  of  responses  to   everything.  And  I  also  found  a  letter  thanking  a  local  state  senator  for  agreeing  to   meet  with  us,  and  it  said  that  we  were  bringing  four  people  with  us,  and  I  can’t   remember—I  would  have  been  going,  but  I  can’t  remember  who  else  would  have   been  going.  Then  he  cancelled  it  right  at  the  last  minute.  And  didn’t  meet  with  us.  He   was  a  part  of  the  old  guard  conservative  political  Democrats,  and  there  are  other   things  that  I  had  against  him,  but  of  a  more  personal  nature  with  other  people,  but   that  was  as  far  as  we  tried  to  go  with  that.       Roanoke  was  different  than  Richmond  or  Norfolk.  Roanoke  was  much  more   laidback,  much  more  “live  and  let  live.”  The  kinds  of  things  that  went  on  in   Richmond  were  just  horrendous.  I  saw  firsthand  things  that  went  on  in  Norfolk.  I   was  down  there  and  was  in  a  bar  raid  one  time  there.  And  it  was  just…  oh  God…  I   didn’t  get  arrested  or  anything,  but  it  was…  That’s  another  conversation  that  I’d  be   glad  to  cover,  and  I  think  Jim  Sears  wrote  about  it  in  one  of  his  books—of  that   particular  raid.  And  the  newspapers  in  other  parts  of  town,  other  parts  of  the  state,   were  much,  much  less  friendly  to  the  gay  community.  Roanoke,  the  newspaper  has   always  been  fair.  At  times  it  appeared  they  were  actually  leaning  [towards]  being   supportive,  because  if  you  go  back  and  look  at  when  those  hateful  letters  would   appear,  they’d  be  balanced  off  with  a  good  one,  a  supportive  one.  And  then  a  couple   days  later,  a  week  later,  or  something  like  that,  there’d  be  this  article,  based  on  a   interview  with  a  lesbian  couple.  Big  article.  It  was  fairly  positive.  We  always     21   �wondered,  “who  on  the  paper  is  gay?  Where  is  this  coming  from?”  Because  this  was   the  kind  of  attitude…       So,  as  far  as  police  entrapment  and  all  that  kind  of  thing,  it  was  never  to  the  extent   that  it  was  in  other  places.  Yes,  there  was.  Yes,  there  were  police  plainclothesmen.  It   would  happen  from  time  to  time.  It  wasn’t  a  continuous  thing.  It  would  happen,  then   for  a  year  or  two  they  would  be  nothing,  and  then  it  would  happen,  and  then  for  a   long  time  there  would  be  nothing.  There  was  the  old  rumor—urban  legend  maybe,   maybe  truth—that  the  police  recorded  license  plates  in  Elmwood  Park,  and  kept  a   list.  This  happened  in  other  places.  It  happened  in  D.C.  It’s  been  documented  as   happening  in  other  places.  And  Hoover’s  people,  and  whatnot,  did  this  kind  of  stuff.   Some  things  happened  to  me  at  some  point,  a  few  years  later,  that  led  me  to  believe   maybe  this  actually  was  true.  And  a  woman  that  we  knew  who  worked  in  the  police   department,  in  a  clerical  capacity  or  something,  told  us  that  she  had  seen  it.  She   wasn’t  all  that  reliable,  so  [we]  never  put  any  faith  in  that.  So  don’t  know  whether   that  was  ever  the  case.  And  I  am  not  aware  of  any  of  the  bars  ever  being  hassled  or   bothered  or  raided  or  anything  like  that,  even  the  Tradewinds  way  back  when.   Police  came  in  from  time  to  time,  and  they  would  go  over  to  the  management,  and   talk  to  them.  They  were  looking  for  somebody  in  particular,  not  necessarily  a  gay   person,  but  somebody  in  particular  they  were  trying  to  find.  And  they  just  wanted…   maybe  they’d  come  in  there.  That  was  it,  and  then  they’d  go.  I  do  remember  one  time   they  did  hassle  some  people  in  the  parking  lot  and  made  some  arrests,  out  back.  But   that’s  all  I  can  remember.       12:14   GR:  Can  you  tell  me  really  briefly  about  what  Elmwood  Park  was  like  then.  It’s   almost  hard  to  imagine,  right?  Cause  the  park  is  so  built  up  today  and  transformed.   There’s  probably  ten  trees  in  the  whole  park.  My  understanding  is  there  was  a  pond,   and  there  was  just  a  different  environment.  So,  can  you  kind  of  recreate  it?  And   where  did  the  gays  meet  each  other?  Where  did  they  hang  out?  Besides  the   Greyhound  bathroom?     12:43   DJ:  [I’ll]  tell  you  about  that…  [mutual  laughter].  Bullitt  Avenue  went  from  Jefferson   Street  all  the  way  through  to  the  street  below.  It  wasn’t  cut  off  and  closed,  like  it  is   now.  It  went  all  the  way  through,  so  there  was  a  street  that  went  across,  went  up  the   hill  up  to  Elm  Avenue,  and  across  to—in  Southeast—that  would  have  been…  the   name  will  come  to  me  [DJ  addition  to  transcript:  Tazewell  Avenue].  But  anyway,  the   extension  of  Franklin  Road.  People  would  drive  through,  maybe  just  drive  through,   go  around  one  block,  come  back.  Go  around  one  block,  come  back.  Go  around  one   block,  come  back.  Sometimes  the  parking  on  the  street,  on  the  side  of  the  street,  was   head-­‐in  with  meters.  So  in  those  you’d  park,  stop.  People  would  stand  around  in   small  groups.  You  didn’t  hang  around  in  large  groups,  but  small  groups:  two,  three,   four,  five  people.  Talk.  Commenting  about  somebody,  “oh,  well,  she’s  been  through   five  times  already.”  And  that  sort  of  thing.  There  was  the  comment  that  the  shortest   distance  between  any  two  places  on  Earth  was  through  Elmwood  Park.  So,  you  went     22   �out  somewhere,  and  before  you  went  home  you  drove  through  the  park,  to  see  if  any   friends  were  there,  and  quite  often  you’d  see  people  you  knew.  And  I  met  a  lot  of   people  there  that  are  friends.  Some—the  ones  that  are  left—are  still  friends.  There   was  the  bus  station  on  one  corner;  the  library  on  the  other  corner.  And  then  in  1960   they  built  the  Downtowner  Motel  there  on  the  other  corner.  The  pond  was  still   there.  People  didn’t  really  go  up  in  the  park  in  the  trees  and  whatnot.  But  it  was   Bullitt  Avenue.  Bullitt  Avenue.  And  it  was  very  popular.  People  would  come  in  from   out  of  town,  stay  at  the  motel,  hang  out  on  the  balcony.  You  could  stand  on  the   balcony  to  watch  cars  go  by,  or  talk  to  people,  and  whatnot.  And  everybody  from   both…  no  matter  what  economic  level  you  were,  or  any  background  or  anything  else,   you  went  through  the  park.  The  drags  didn’t  hang  out  [there].  They  didn’t  go  there   in  drag.  That  was  crossing  the  line.  Unless  it  was  Halloween.  You  could  get  away   with  it  on  Halloween.  But  otherwise  they  didn’t  go  on  the  street.  It  was  kind  of  like,   no,  you  didn’t  do  that.  You  were  pushing  the  envelope  a  little  bit.       15:45   GR:  This  was  mostly  after  dark?     15:47   DJ:  Yeah.       15:49   GR:  And  did  you  feel  like  straight  people  basically  didn’t  hang  out  in  the  park  at   night?  Or  did  they  also?  It  was  a  space?     15:58:   DJ:  Yeah,  you’d  get  guys  who  would  drive  through  and  yell  things  and  stuff.  Punks.   But,  usually  other  than  some  verbal  hassle,  there  was  very  little.  I  did  find  out  that,   up  on  the  upper  side  of  the  park,  before  they  widened…  before  Community  Hospital   was  built,  that  was  all  houses.  That  whole  hillside  was  houses.  And  Elm  Avenue  was   wider,  and  there  was  parking  all  along  that  upper  side,  and  people  would  actually   park  up  there,  as  well.  I  didn’t  really  know  about  that  until  recently,  talking  to  one  of   my  friends  from  way  back  then.  We  were  at  dinner  in  conversation  and  he  was   telling  stories  and  tales  about  that.  Yeah,  people  would  drive  around,  maybe  park,   drive  around,  maybe  go  off  somewhere,  come  back,  drive  around,  and  whatnot.     17:14   GR:  So  the  narrative  I  have  in  my  mind  from  ’72  when  G.A.R.V.  dissolves  until  ’77   when  FAIR  [the  Free  Alliance  of  Individual  Rights]  is  formed,  I  don’t  really  know   much  in  that  period,  except,  interestingly,  the  Last  Straw  opens.  The  Horoscope   opens.  In  the  late  ‘70s  there  was  a  place  Murphy’s.  The  Park  is  ’78.  So  you  have  this   efflorescence  of  gay  spaces.  So  what  did  you  do  after  the  election  in  ’72  and  after  the   G.A.R.V.  falls  apart?  How  can  you  help  me  understand  that  sort  of  period  in  the  mid-­‐ ‘70s  when  these  places  are  opening?  What’s  the  gay  community  like  at  that  time?     18:01     23   �DJ:  I  still  remember  the  night  the  Last  Straw  opened,  and  it  was  packed.  It  was  just   jam-­‐packed  with  people.  I  never  went  back  to  the  Tradewinds.  Ever.  Some  did;   they’d  go  from  time  to  time  and  everything.  But  they  didn’t  really  stay  there,   because  there  wasn’t  much  of  anybody  there,  and  you  weren’t  gonna  get  lucky  there.   The  Last  Straw  was  gay-­‐owned  and  operated,  the  whole  time  it  was  in  business.  So,   it  was  a  friendly,  receptive  kind  of  place.  It  was  small.  It  was  kind  of  sterile,  in  a   sense.  A  little  dark.  But  there  were  interesting  sorts  of  things  happened  there.  Kind   of  fun  stuff.  You  know,  they  had  some  pinball  machines,  juke  box,  and  for  as  long  as  I   can  remember  Tammy  Wynette’s  “Stand  By  Your  Man”  was  on  the  juke  box.  You   know,  you  knew  the  people  who  ran  the  place,  who  worked  there,  and  they  were   always  friendly.  It  was  very  much  a  home  bar.  You  went  there  and  you  knew  a  lot  of   people,  and  it  was  comfortable,  and  you  could  just  go  there  and  relax.  It  was  fun.       The  Horoscope  was  the  first  dance  bar.  And  it  wasn’t  very  far  away,  so  you  could  go   from  one  to  the  other,  without  any  distance  at  all.  It  was  crowded.  The  music  was   loud.  Disco  was  the  thing.  You  know,  people  come  along  today,  and  I  say  “you  know,   you  missed  disco.  That’s  so  sad.  You  missed  it.  That’s  just  so  sad.”  It  truly  is,  because   it  epitomized  everything  that  was  going  on  within  the  gay  community.  It  was  the   anthem,  sung  by  Donna  Summer.  It  was  kind  of  like  our  coming  into  the  world,   coming  into  our  own.  It  was  pumped  up  by  that  music.  And  the  Horoscope  was  fun.  I   went  there  a  lot.  I  was  never  into  dancing  or  anything.  I  liked  listening  to  the  music.   And  a  lot  of  my  friends  were  there.  They  went  there  and  everything.  So  you’d  go  to   the  Straw  for  a  while,  then  you’d  go  there,  maybe  go  back  and  whatnot.  My   understanding  is  that  it  opened  as  a  straight  place  and  they  were  trying  to  have   lunch  and  everything,  and  it  didn’t  go.  And  then  somebody  said  “hey,  these  people   have  got  money,  and  these  people  will  spend  it.”  And  so  they  changed  it,  and  bang,  it   just  hit.       Murphy’s…  [laughter]…  oh  God.  Murphy’s.  Wasn’t  open  very  long.  I  recently  found   my  membership  card  for  Murphy’s.  I  keep  stuff.  I  keep  everything.  I  found  my   membership  card  for  Murphy’s.  Murphy’s  Super  Disco.  The  story  is  that  it  opened  as   a  bar  and  a  restaurant.  Was  not  doing  well.  And  somebody  told  the  family  that   opened  it,  “hey,  turn  it  into  a  gay  bar,  and  you’ll  get  a  lot  of  business.”  Well,  they  did.   They  indeed  did.  But  they  were  not  ready  for  it.  They  were  just  not  ready  for  it.  They   were  completely  plucked  at  the  site  of  two  men  dancing.  Or  two  men  holding  hands.   Or  two  men  [who]  even  might  kiss.  They  were  just  completely  thrown.  And  the   number  of  people  who  came  there,  and  everything,  they  just  simply  couldn’t  handle   it.  I  went  some.  A  friend  of  mine  is  writing  a  thing  about  it.  But  it  didn’t  last  very   long,  because  the  people  couldn’t  deal  with  it,  and  they  couldn’t  run  the  bar  and   whatnot.  So  it  didn’t  last  very  long.  All  this  time  the  Straw  was  still  going  strong.       I’m  not  sure  when  Backstreet…  right  now  I  can’t  recall  when  Backstreet  opened.  But   it’s  right  in  that  time  period  when  it  did.  And  it  was  a  very  different  sort  of  place.   Standard  bar.  Bar  on  one  side;  booths  down  the  other.  Pool  table  in  the  back.  Levi   sort  of  thing.  Drags  didn’t  go  there.  They  [were]  welcomed,  but  didn’t.  Different  kind     24   �of  atmosphere.  Different  group  of  people.  So  people  would  go  to  the  Straw,  then   they’d  go  to  Backstreet,  then  they’d  come  back,  or  go  between  the  two  or  something.       The  Park  was  a  whole  different  ball  game.  Opened  by  two  gay  men.  Planned  and  put   together  and  opened  by  two  gay  men.  Well-­‐run.  Friendly.  They  policed  it  for  any   kind  of  harassment  from  straight  punks  or  whatever.  We  rarely  ever  got  that,  but   that  happened  a  couple  of  times,  from  time  to  time.  You  know,  there  are  stories  of   one  of  the  guys  who  ran  it  walking  around  on  the  roof  with  a  pistol  in  his  hand,   saying  “you’re  not  gonna  mess  with  my  customers.”  I  don’t  know  if  that’s  true  or  not.   It  was  always  a  really  nice  place.  It  was  loud.  It  was  a  big  dance  bar.  It  was  loud,  and   very  smoky  then.  But  then  I  smoked  then,  so  it  didn’t  matter  to  me.  Straight  people   found  it,  and  particularly  straight  women.  Because  they  could  come  there  and  they   could  dance,  and  have  a  good  time,  and  they  weren’t  gonna  get  hit  on.  Everywhere   else  they’d  go,  they’d  get  hit  on,  and  they’d  have  to  fight.  They’d  come  there  and  they   didn’t.  And  there  were  all  these  good-­‐looking  men  they  could  dance  with.  And  they   might  put  their  arms  around  them  but  they  weren’t  hitting  on  them.  And  so  a  lot  of   straight  women  would  come  there,  and  then  some  straight  men  would  start  coming   there,  too,  because  it  was  one  of  the  best  dance  bars  in  the  town,  for  a  long  time.  So   it  got  a  big  clientele.  And  it  was  very,  very  successful.  It  put  Roanoke  on  the  map  and   people  would  come  from  all  over  the  place  because  Roanoke  had  one  of  the  nicest   bars  around.  Anywhere.       24:58   GR:  Let  me  ask  about…  well,  there’s  one  other  that  I  read  about  called  Nite  &  Day.  I   don’t  know  if  you  recall  that?  And  a  follow-­‐up  question  is—so  that  I  don’t  just  ask   about  Nite  &  Day,  but  I’m  interested—but  the  follow-­‐up  is:  how  could  this  possibly   be  that  there  were  like  six  or  seven  quote-­‐unquote  “gay  bars”  all  like  maybe  at  one   time  in  downtown  Roanoke?  Was  Roanoke  that  gay?  Were  there  that  many  gay   people?  How  do  you  explain  that?     25:30   DJ:  I  never  did  go  to  Nite  &  Day.  And  I’m  not  certain  that  I  was  actually  aware  of  it  at   the  time.  But  I  know  the  guy  who  opened  it,  or  I  knew  him  then.  It  wasn’t  open  very   long.  Quieter  sort  of  place.  Food,  you  know,  laid  back.  You’d  go  there  and  then  go  to   one  of  the  bars.  Something  of  this  sort.       Why  were  all  these  places  in  Roanoke  open?  Well,  people  flocked  here  from   everywhere.  If  you  lived  in  Lynchburg  you  came  over  here.  If  you  lived  in  Wytheville   you  came  to  Roanoke.  If  you  lived  in  Danville  you  came  to  Roanoke.  If  you  lived  in   Martinsville  you  came  to  Roanoke.  If  you  lived  in  Charlottesville  you  came  to   Roanoke.  If  you  lived  in  Blacksburg,  if  you  were  going  to  Tech,  you  came  to  Roanoke.   A  lot  of  guys  from  Tech  came  to  Roanoke  all  the  time.  Every  weekend.  So  we  knew  a   lot  of  the  people,  and  we  would  go  to  parties  up  there,  they’d  come  down  here.  A  lot   of  really  nice  guys  were  up  there.  So  there  were  just  people  from  everywhere,  and   because  of  where  we  were  located…  and  then,  back  then,  you  would  bar  hop.  Like,  a   couple  of  us  would  go  to  Richmond  for  a  weekend,  or  we’d  go  to  D.C.  for  a  weekend,     25   �just  for  something  different.  For  a  different  experience.  For  a  different  kind  of  a  bar.   For  a  different  crowd.  Norfolk.  Whatever.  People  in  Roanoke  tended  to  go  to   Richmond,  D.C.,  and  Norfolk.  Early  on,  I  did  go  to  Greensboro  some,  but  we  didn’t   like  Greensboro.  Just  something  about  Greensboro…  and  people  in  Greensboro   thought  people  from  Roanoke  were  trash.  So  they  had  an  attitude.  So  you  didn’t  go   there.  You  just  didn’t  go  to  Greensboro  and  they  didn’t  come  here.  It  was  just  ninety   minutes  away.  Some  did,  but,  it  was  just  different.       27:38   GR:  Were  there  black  gays  and  lesbians—like,  once  we  get  into  the  ‘70s—with  this   whole  mix  of  bars,  were  any  of  them  racially  mixed?  Or  was  it  still  mostly  a  white   crowd?     27:47   DJ:  No,  the  Horoscope  was  mixed.  The  Straw  was  mixed.  Everybody  was  welcome.   There  was  a  period  of  time  in  there  where  a  lot  of  the  women  stopped  kind  of   coming  around  some  of  the…  a  lot  of  the  places.  They  were  always  welcome.  But   they  didn’t  come  out  as  much.  They  did  to  The  Park.  So  there  was  always  a  fairly   large  lesbian  community  here,  but  they  tended  to  stay  much  more  to  themselves.  I   kind  of  missed  that,  because  earlier  on  we  were  friends.  Lesbian  friends.  I  liked…  I   really  enjoyed  having…  I  liked  their  company.  Had  a  good  time  with  them.  And  at  the   Tradewinds,  I  remember  us  sitting  around  a  table,  and  it  being  a  very  mixed  group.       28:42   GR:  And  the  Gay  Alliance  had  active  lesbian  members?     28:45   DJ:  Some.  Yeah,  some.       28:47   GR:  So  did  you  remain  politically  involved  in  any  way  after  the  Gay  Alliance?  Were   you  aware  of  the  FAIR  group?5  Were  there  any  other  groups?       28:56   DJ:  I  was  aware  of  the  FAIR  group,  though  most  of  the  people—I  was  looking   through  some  of  the  newsletters  recently,  and  I  said  “oh,  yeah,  yeah,  yeah,  yeah”   [recognizing  the  names  of  the  FAIR  members].  It  kind  of  started  in  the  apartment   building  I  lived  in  on  another  floor,  and  one  of  the  people  who  was  involved—I  saw   his  name  there.  I  know  he  died  just  a  couple  months  ago.  Yeah,  I  knew  them.  I  wasn’t   involved,  although  I  was  involved  in  political  stuff.  Worked  from  then  regularly  and   very  heavily  in  political  campaigns  all  the  way  up  through  Carter’s  second  campaign,   and  even  for  a  while  after  that,  to  the  point  that  we  just  burned  out.  It  was  just  like…   In  Virginia  there’s  a  campaign  every  year.  There’s  an  election  every  year.  Either  it’s                                                                                                                   5  The  Free  Alliance  for  Individual  Rights,  or  FAIR,  was  a  short-­‐lived  gay  political  organization  founded   in  Roanoke  in  July  1977.     26   �Council,  or  it’s  statewide,  or  it’s  presidential,  or  something.  There’s  an  election  every   year.  There’s  always  something  going  on.  And  there’s  stuff  going  on  that  the  public   never  sees.  Unless  you’re  a  part  of  it.  So  you  never  got  a  breath.  Never  got  time  to   just  sit  down  and  [take]  a  rest  from  it.  It  was  fun.  It  was  exciting.  Great  memories  of   the  people  and  the  things  that  we  did  and  whatnot.  Traffic  in  and  out  of  my   apartment  was  just—during  the  day,  and  even  up  late  at  night—there  was  a  fairly   good  sized  group  of  people  who  even  gathered  right  at  my  apartment  in  the   evenings,  after,  you  know,  you’d  been  in  a  campaign.  You’d  been  working  at  this  and   working  at  that  and  everything,  and  everybody  was  tired,  and  so  there  was  a  group   of  people,  and  it  was  mixed,  gay  and  straight.  And  they  kind  of  gathered  at  my   apartment,  and  that  was  fun.  You  know,  you’d  talk,  socialize,  and  whatnot  up  until   late,  and  then  you’d  have  to  drag  yourself  out  of  bed  the  next  morning  to  go  to  work.   That  was  fun.  I  enjoyed  that  a  lot.  I  miss  that.  I  really,  really  miss  that.  Just  recently   talking  with  a  friend  of  mine  who  was  involved  with  a  whole  lot  of  that,  and  we   come  back  and  talk  about  “you  remember  so  and  so?  Whatever  happened  to  so  and   so?”  We’re  both  political  junkies.  I  watch  all  the  debates,  and  all  the  stuff,  ad   nauseum.  All  of  the  awful  people  on  the  Republican  side.  It’s  just…  I  can’t  believe   what’s  going  on.  I  just  can’t  believe  it.  But  yeah,  I  miss  that.  I  miss  that.  So  I  worked   in  it  for  quite  a  while,  up  into  the  ‘80s,  mid-­‐80s,  I  guess.  It  was  a  moment  in  time.       31:57   GR:  Let  me  just  check  in  with  you  about  time.  We’ve  talked  for  about  an  hour  and  a   half.  Are  you  okay  with  doing  a  few  more?       32:04   DJ:  Um  hum.  [yes]     32:05   GR:  So,  what  I’m  hearing  is  that  when  Carter  lost  re-­‐election,  Reagan  came  to  power,   you  had  a  lot  of  Democrats  supporting  Reagan,  too,  right?  And  that’s  also  a  period,   the  sort  of  rise  of  this  new  conservative  movement:  Anita  Bryant—I  don’t  know  if   you  want  to  comment?—you  know,  but  the  whole  sort  of  evangelical  Christian   conservative  movement,  that  really  helped  Reagan  come  into  power,  was  a   movement—our  friend  Jerry  Falwell  down  the  street  here—all  those  guys  came  to   prominence  in  the  late  ‘70s,  early  ‘80s.  Do  you  have  memories  of  that?  Cause  you   were  obviously  very  involved  in  politics,  but  also  as  part  of  the  gay  community.  The   gay  community  became  a  real  target  for  these  conservatives.     33:00   DJ:  Anita  Bryant.  I  don’t  recall  us  ever  really  being  active  and  whatnot  and   everything,  but  we  were  very,  very  aware,  very  in  tune…  I  can  only  speak  for  myself,   but  I  read—and  I’m  certain  a  number  of  my  friends  read  a  lot  of  the  media—the  gay   media  as  well  as  the  regular  media,  and  TV  and  all  this—about  Anita  Bryant,  and   recently  a  friend  found  and  gave  me  a  ballpoint  pen.  And  it  says,  printed  on  it  “Don’t   Drink  Orange  Juice.  Fuck  Anita,”  and  a  phone  number.  And  I  tracked  down  that   phone  number,  and  it  was  The  Horoscope’s  phone  number.  I  wasn’t  aware  of  it  at     27   �the  time.  I  couldn’t  remember  this,  but  a  friend  of  mine  had  it,  and  said  “here,  you   need  this,”  and  gave  it  to  me.  That  whole  thing  was  just  appalling,  and  I  didn’t  know   until  just  last  year  or  two  other  stuff  that  had  been  going  on  in  Florida  so  that  she   was  just  a  follow-­‐up  of  the  Johns  Committee6  and  everything  that  had  been  going  on   prior  to  her  in  Florida.  And  what  went  on  there,  there’s  a  wonderful  new  book  about   all  of  that,  the  details  of  a  lot  of  what  went  on  with  the  Johns  Committee  and   everything.  And  she  came  like  after  that.  Sadly,  a  few  years  ago  I  found  a  record   album  and  it  has  a  picture  of  Anita  Bryant  on  the  front—looked  like  a  drag  queen— and  the  title  is  “Battle  Hymn  of  the  Republic.”  Well  I  couldn’t  resist  it,  so  I  bought  the   album.  Three  bucks.  And  I  bought  it.  And  a  year  or  two  ago  I  donated  it  to  Pride’s   auction,  and  a  nice  guy  who  was  there,  takes  stuff  and  everything,  he  had  no  earthly   idea  why  I  was  donating  it.  No  concept.  Nothing.  Knew  nothing.  And  that  was  kind  of   sad.  You  know,  it’s  like  disco:  what  did  he  miss.  Well,  no,  it’s  not  like  disco.  Disco  was   fun.  Disco  was  good;  Anita  was  not.  Recently  saw  a  clip  on  TV  of  the  person,  the  guy   who  went  up  and  shoved  a  pie  in  her  face,  and  it  was  just  wonderful,  just  wonderful   to  see  that  happen.       35:46   GR:  Were  you  aware  of  Falwell  down  the  street?     35:48   DJ:  Oh  yeah.  Yeah.     35:53   GR:  Well,  I  wonder,  we’ve  talked  a  lot  about  the  ‘60s,  and  a  lot  about  the  1970s,  and   we  could  keep  moving  forward  [but]  being  mindful  of  time  I’m  interested  to  know   what  do  you  think  are  some  of  the  big  changes  in  the  story  of  Roanoke’s  LGBTQ   community  say  from  the…  If  we  interpret—and  you  can  tell  me  if  I’m  wrong  to   interpret  as  a  sort  of  peak  of  having  all  these  discos  and  bars  and  spaces  and  a  very   vibrant  scene,  to  today  [when]  we  have  The  Park  and  Backstreet,  although   Backstreet’s  not  necessarily  a  very  gay  crowd  anymore  so  really  The  Park,  how  do   we  get  from  the  ‘70s  to  today?  Like  what  do  you  see  as  the  big  changes,  and  what  are   some  of  the  key  things  that  you’ve  noticed  along  the  way?     36:49   DJ:  I  guess  in  the  mid  to  late  ‘80s  I  really  kind  of  quit  going  out  to  bars  and  that  sort   of  stuff,  and  spent  more  time  with  friends.  What  I  see  now  is  the  need  to  have  our   own  space.  The  need  to  have  our  own  essentially  private  [space]  doesn’t  really  exist   in  the  same  sense  it  did  before.  I  think  there’s  something  missing  in  not  having  that.   I  think  there’s  something  missing  in  not  having  our  own.  I  always  look  at  us  as  a  sort   of  tribe.  We  should  hang  together,  and  we  should  spend  time  together,  and  we                                                                                                                   6  The  Florida  Legislative  Investigate  Committee,  or  the  Johns  Committee  (1956-­‐1965),  was  part  of  the   larger  Second  Red  Scare  and  the  Lavender  Scare,  an  era  in  U.S.  history  when  federal  and  state   governments  investigated  and  terminated  the  employment  of  thousands  of  suspected  communist   and  homosexual  employees  respectively.     28   �should  be  a  tribe.  Not  be  assimilated.  I  don’t  appreciate  and  I  don’t  like  the   assimilation.  I  don’t  like  it  at  all.  They  will  never  assimilate  me.  I  understand  what’s   happening.  I  think  a  lot  of  people  go  out  to  regular  places,  ordinary  places,  and  feel   perfectly  comfortable  doing  that.  One  instance  I  can  recall  in  particular  a  friend  went   out  to  this  really  nice  restaurant  and  we’re  sitting  off  in  kind  of  a  corner,  and  we   ordered  and  whatnot—you  know,  it  was  a  very  nice  place—and  there  was  a  long   table  down  from  us  with  people.  This  is  [the]  ‘70s.  And  somebody  there  apparently   picked  up  on  [us]  and  started  making  some  comments  and  we  just  kind  of  ignored  it,   and  they  kept  on.  Kept  on  doing  it.  This  is  the  power  of  being  invisible.  The  head   waiter  walked  over  to  us,  and  apologized  for  what  was  being  said,  going  on.  And   proceeded  to  go  over,  and  the  ring  leader  of  this  group,  stand  behind  his  chair,  and   just  stand  there.  The  waiter  was  gay.  Just  stand  there.  And  he  said  “what  do  you   want?”  and  he  said  “Nothing.  Nothing.”  Just  stood  there.  It  stopped.  It  just   completely  stopped.  He  just  intimidated  them  to  the  point  where  they  were  afraid  to   say  anything.  He  had  the  power  because  he  was  head…  he  could  have  ordered  them   out.  He  had  the  power.  They  didn’t  know  why.  And  that  was  part  of  the  invisibility   thing.  But  today  things  like  that  would…  you  just  fluff  it  off.  You  just  say  “what  the   hell.  I  don’t  care.”  Because  it  doesn’t  happen  that  often.  If  it  does,  so  many  of  the   people  around  you  are  gonna  be  negative  about  it,  whether  they’re  straight  or  gay.   So  the  whole  thing  is  just  different.  The  need  for  that  space  is  not  as  big  as  it  used  to   be.  Which  is  good  and  bad.  So  I  don’t  think  that  having  that  explosion  of  the  number   of  bars—and  then  granted,  Nite  &  Day  was  not  there  for  very  long;  Murphy’s  was   not  there  very  long;  Horoscope  was  only  there  for  three  or  four  years—so,  they  kind   of  come  and  go,  but  then  that’s  kind  of  the  track  record  for  most  gay  bars   everywhere,  they  come  and  go.       40:50   GR:  It’s  kind  of  remarkable  that  The  Park,  with  a  little  glip,7  has  otherwise  been  open   continuously  for  almost  forty  years.     40:57   DJ:  Yeah.     40:59   GR:  And  probably  we  could  say  that  the  internet  has  also  changed  the  way  that  gays   meet  each  other?     41:06   DJ:  Yeah.     41:09   GR:  Well,  is  there  anything  else  that  you  want  to  say?  Share?                                                                                                                     7  Besides  closing  briefly  September  to  December  2013,  The  Park  has  been  continuously  open  from   1978  to  the  present.     29   �41:17   DJ:  I  don’t  know.  I  can’t  think  of  anything  right  off.  I  mean,  I  could  sit  here  all  night   and  tell  you  stories,  you  know,  of  things  that  happened,  and  stuff  that  went  on  and   whatnot  and  everything.  And  I  could  also  sit  here  all  night  and  hold  back  things  that   I  don’t  want  to  talk  about.  But  I  don’t  know.       41:39   GR:  Well,  I  hope  we  can  do  this  again  sometime.  Tell  more  stories.  Thank  you.     41:42   DJ:  Yeah.         [END]                                 30   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Daniel Jones Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Dan Jones Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Daniel Jones Date: 20 February 2016 Location: Roanoke College History Department, 223 E. Main Street, Salem Total Duration: 95:28 Transcription prepared by: Gregory Rosenthal Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 February 2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Daniel Jones, Gregory Rosenthal Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JonesDan https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2608/Jennings_Gerry_[compressed].MP3 09da9dfd3a3ca8773ae1b3b745845824 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2608/Gerry_Jennings_transcript_-_FINAL.pdf 900115a78be6b95d97797b65c975c19a PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Gerry Jennings February 23, 2016 Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Gerry Jennings Date: February 23, 2016 Location: Gerry Jennings’s home, Roanoke, Virginia Transcription prepared by Erin Hannon Total 1:15:59 Index: 0:00 = childhood in Roanoke City and Roanoke County (1954-1968) 4:03 = experiences at Cave Spring High School (1968-1972) 9:39 = The Tradewinds and Old Southwest 13:23 = experiences in college at the University of Virginia (1972-1976) 17:06 = political and religious upbringing, before college 20:19 = experiences at UVA (1972-1976) and the two years afterwards in Roanoke (1976-1978) 26:45 = first apartment in Old Southwest (1978) 27:46 = Murphy’s and The Park (1978) 28:28 = involvement in PALS and the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, in Lynchburg (1978-early 1980s) 36:17 = the scene at The Park 39:45 = HIV / AIDS 41:21 = founding The Blue Ridge Lambda Press (early 1980s) 44:20 = Backstreet Café and The Last Straw 46:40 = involvement in gay organizations in Roanoke (1980s) 48:36 = Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance (1980s) 50:50 = Alliance of Gay and Lesbian Organizations (ALGO) (late 1980s) 53:59 = organizing the Pride in the Park festivals (1989 – early 1990s) 1:02:14 = attending graduate school (early 1990s) 1:03:47 = The Blue Ridge Lambda Press (in the 1990s) 1:05:03 = The Gay Rap Group (mid-1980s – early 1990s) 1:10:51 = changes over time, from the 1980s to today 00:00:00 [Testing sound] 00:00:12 1 �GR: Okay so, this is Gregory Rosenthal interviewing Gerry Jennings. It’s February 23, 2016. We are in Mr. Jenning’s home in Raleigh Court, or is it not Raleigh Court? 00:00:25 GJ: It’s kind of on the edge of Raleigh Court. It’s kind of between Raleigh Court and Windsor Hills. 00:00:31 GR: Oh Windsor Hills 00:00:32 GJ: Yeah 00:00:33 GR: Okay, this is for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Oral History Initiative, and that’s that. So, Gerry, if you will, just state your name and where you grew up… 00:00:48 GJ: Okay. I’m Gerry Jennings, and I grew up here, in the Roanoke Valley. I was born in Roanoke City. Lived there until I was about eight and then moved into Roanoke County, and I lived there until college, until I moved out on my own when I was 24. 00:01:14 GR: So you were born in the ‘50s? 00:01:17 GJ: Uh huh 00:01:20 GR: You said you moved to the county when you were eight? 00:01:24 GJ: Uh huh 00:01:25 GR: So tell me a little bit about those first eight years in Roanoke City. Did you go to public elementary school? 00:01:34 GJ: I did. First and second grade in Roanoke City. They didn’t have public kindergarten back then so I went to a private kindergarten. 00:01:50 GR: What was your home like? Siblings? What did your parents do? 00:01:56 2 �GJ: I have one sister who’s three years younger. My mom had been a teacher before I was born, and after I was born she didn’t go back to work until I was maybe 14 or 15, something like that. My dad worked for the U.S. government for the Internal Revenue Service. So it was just the four of us in the family. 00:02:27 GR: Were your folks from this area? 00:02:30 GJ: Yes they were 00:02:34 GR: So what propelled you into the county? Was that a change in job or just a change in location? 00:02:43 GJ: Just a bigger, newer house. The house that we had in the city was a small kind of little Cape Cod, and we moved into a ranch that had seven rooms or something. In fact my sister still lives in the house. Our parents died and she bought my share, and so she’s still there. It’s only just over the hill from here, it’s very close. 00:03:09 GR: What neighborhood were you in, in the city? 00:03:12 GJ: Grandin Court 00:03:17 GR: So what school district did you go to for the rest of your schooling, K-12? 00:03:25 GJ: So first and second were Grandin Court Elementary. Third was Cave Spring Elementary, then they changed the district lines so then I went to Mt. Vernon Elementary School for fourth through seventh grade. And then when I went into eighth grade that was the first year that they had what was then called an Intermediate School, or a Junior High School basically. So I went to eighth grade at the Intermediate School, and then Cave Spring Intermediate, and then ninth grade through graduation at Cave Spring High School. 00:04:03 GR: What was Cave Spring like? What was the community like? Suburban? 00:04:10 GJ: Very suburban, very middle class. There were a lot of kids too though, who were from the country, probably whose families had lived in Southwest Roanoke County for many, many years. Then there were lots of suburban kids, many whose parents had transferred here for jobs, with like GE or [the] railroad or things like that. There were 1,600 kids there at the time, and I think 3 �there were maybe 100 black kids, and maybe two Asian kids. I mean it was a very, very white, homogeneous student body. Not to mention the teachers, they were all white too, just about. 00:05:12 GR: What year did you graduate from Cave Spring? 00:05:14 GJ: 1972 00:05:16 GR: So I’d imagine the schools were integrated sometime during your middle school? 00:05:26 GJ: Well, it was actually when I was in elementary school, because I know that—this is in Roanoke County, Roanoke County schools that I’m talking about now—there was one black kid in my sixth and seventh grade. So at that point we were integrated in some respect, I don’t know if it was full, I don’t know what the particulars were. Roanoke City schools, I think, integrated maybe a little bit later than that, cause I remember hearing stories about Patrick Henry High School, which I actually lived closer to, even though I was in the county I was closer to Patrick Henry than Cave Spring, but I remember hearing stories about what was going on with Patrick Henry integrating. 00:06:27 GR: So you were in high school I guess from ‘68 to ‘72? 00:06:30 GJ: Uh huh 00:06:33 GR: Those are tumultuous years in the country, what was it like in Cave Spring? 00:06:39 GJ: Well, I remember the first Earth Day. We had our first Earth Day, it was 1970. Several of us decided we were going to recognize it by walking to school, instead of taking the bus. So we walked. It was three miles or something like that. I remember going to a couple of war protests, and I remember we first celebrated Black History month while I was in high school. So there was that sort of stuff, but it was pretty low-key, it wasn’t any big drama that I recall anyway. Probably, rather the political side of things, the bigger changes were coming about in society as far as the hippies and, you know, long hair and all that stuff. I was not really part of that. I was a goody-two-shoes. 00:07:52 GR: Were there hippies at Cave Spring? 00:07:54 GJ: Oh yeah! Sure, “the freaks” was the short hand to refer to them. 4 �00:08:05 GR: So what kind of kid were you in those teenage years? 00:08:09 GJ: Oh I was very—I was a little goody-two-shoes. I was in the band, I was on the student newspaper, I was in the Latin club, and those were my extracurriculars. I was a pretty nerdy kid, pretty shy kid. 00:08:32 GR: Did you have any sense of your sexuality in high school? 00:08:36 GJ: Yeah, the very beginnings. I think I was probably about sixteen when I actually understood what was going on in that respect for me. But of course there was no public discussion of that topic so it was, you know, there was really no outlet that I knew of. Now of course I know now that there were some of these—what we were talking about earlier before we started recording about the Gay Alliance [of the Roanoke Valley] and the Big Lick Gayzette—stuff like that that was beginning to happen when I was still in high school but of course I had no knowledge of that. 00:09:22 GR: You were certainly not yet going to bars or anything like that, so it was probably hard to meet anyone who was openly gay. In retrospect, were there students at Cave Spring who were gay? 00:09:39 GJ: There certainly were, I don’t know if they were acting on it at the time, but yeah, several of my friends from high school later came out. I remember one time, earlier than high school probably, when my dad worked downtown, his office was downtown, so we would go and meet him at the old S&W cafeteria, downtown for dinner pretty frequently. Of course, in the ‘60s there were malls, the malls were beginning, but there was still a lot of retail and activity going on downtown. So anyway, we would go down there a lot. I remember when we would drive home, we would drive up Franklin Road out of downtown and we would go by The Tradewinds. Well, I, of course didn’t know anything about The Tradewinds, and I don’t know what my parents said about The Tradewinds while we passed it, but I remember thinking that there was something wrong about that place because of the way that they talked about it. So they knew, I guess, what kind of place it was. As I understand it, The Tradewinds was there from the ‘40s, and was a gay bar even throughout that period. Have you learned something about that? So anyway, it was just interesting that I knew there was something shady about the place before I knew what it was. 00:11:28 GR: What is your memory of that space? When you were driving by on Franklin, did it have an aura of secretiveness to it? Or skeeviness? Was there something that would make your parents, you know be like “that place ain’t right”? 5 �00:11:47 GJ: Just by looking at it? I don’t think so. I mean it had a big sign “Tradewinds” and I think it had a palm tree on the sign. No, I don’t think there was anything particularly skeevy looking about it. Although it was kind of on the border between downtown and Old Southwest, and Old Southwest was kind of on the shady side in those years. I don’t know if that had anything to do with it, but it was basically downtown. I mean it was right on the edge, you know? 00:12:23 GR: Could you elaborate on what was Old Southwest’s reputation, what was it like? 00:12:32 GJ: Well, at the time I didn’t know anything about it. Although my parents had friends who lived there, close friends who lived there so we would go there and visit. They lived in an apartment, upstairs in a house, and I think that they owned the house, but I don’t really know. Aside from that I didn’t really know anything about Old Southwest. That changed when I first moved. When I first moved out of the house I moved to Old Southwest, when I was 24. So at that point I was certainly aware of it and was involved in the neighborhood organizations and stuff. 00:13:14 GR: So take me back now to high school, you graduated in ‘72, what was next for you? 00:13:23 GJ: Well I went to college. I went to [the] University of Virginia in Charlottesville. I was there all four years. I majored in Psychology with no particular idea of what I was going to do when I came out. 00:13:41 GR: What was that like? What was it like in Charlottesville in those years? 00:13:45 GJ: There was a lot of stuff to be exposed to, like just about anybody who goes off to college is going to experience. In those days, I think it was maybe more true than now, in fact I’m sure it is, that somebody in that position who gets exposed to a lot more stuff that they’ve never even thought of. It was a little bit overwhelming for me. At first I was glad to be kind of anonymous. I think there were 16,000 students when I was there, undergrad and grad together. It’s a lot bigger now. I kind of liked being anonymous, but then I never really got into a good grove there. I mean my grades were okay and all that, but my grandmother died on November 1st of my first year at UVA. I was very close to her, and I think that, for a year or so, had a pretty major impact on me. Unfortunately I didn’t take my father’s advice, and when I went to UVA, I decided to room with my best friend from high school. He said, “Don’t do it, because if you do that you’re not going to meet as many people.” And he was right. I didn’t meet as many people. So, socially it was sort of you know…. I mean I had fun and everything, but it was somewhat limited I think from what it could have been if I had had a little wider circle than what I had started off with. But I liked UVA. I enjoyed it. I certainly became more politically aware and so forth. ‘72 was the first year I was able to vote for president. I voted for Nixon. [chuckles] Haven’t voted for a Republican for 6 �president since then, but by that point I was beginning to be more politically aware. Chuck Robb was in law school at UVA at the time. He was head of the Student Legal Forum. They brought in speakers, and he of course had pretty good connections, being the son-in-law of President Johnson. So they brought in all these big names in politics. The one I remember the most is Hubert Humphrey. That was an interesting part of it, to see some of these national figures speak. 00:17:06 GR: I’m interested in your political awakening, because you said back in Cave Spring that you went to some anti-war demonstrations, Earth Day, and so on. At that time did you feel that you understood your political values, that they had formed yet? Or was that more “hey, people are going to this thing and you want to tag along?” 00:17:31 GJ: Well, it was some of that yeah. I had a couple of close friends who were really into the antiwar stuff. So I tagged along with them to some extent, but no, my political ideas were not well formed at all. I think that my thoughts at the time about Nixon and [Senator George] McGovern were just that the things McGovern was saying just didn’t seem realistic to me, but that was about the entire depth of my understanding about it. 00:18:19 GR: What kind of values did your parents have and raise you with? Was it a religious household? Were your parents politically aligned in any direction? 00:18:30 GJ: It was not a religious household. My mother—that’s funny I was thinking about this last night—my mother, a lot of times on Sunday mornings would say “Well we really ought to go to church today” but then, you know, she would just sit there with the rest of us. She didn’t push it. I think she just felt the social obligation. We belonged to a church, a Presbyterian church, well first to a Baptist church then a Presbyterian Church, but we didn’t go much at all. They never mentioned religion other than that. Didn’t say grace. Very, very nonreligious kind of upbringing. And they were southern people, and you know, their ideas about race were not hateful, but were not enlightened, at all. Of course in those years, a lot of the changes that were happening as far as race relations were playing out in television with TV characters, guests on talk shows, and that kind of stuff. So we had some debates in the house about that. My mom and dad kind of thought that some of that was being forced on society. But as I said, they were not hateful, at all, as far as race went or anything for that matter. 00:20:14 GR: And you didn’t have any conversations about sexuality, before leaving home? 00:20:19 GJ: No, no I didn’t. In fact I hadn’t come out to anybody until my one friend Kathy, who was a very close friend in high school and again at UVA, she was the first person I ever came out to and she was very accepting. Then there was one other young woman who I was very close to. She was kind of pressuring me because she wanted us to be dating, she wanted to be involved and of course I wasn’t interested in that. Although we did have sex twice, as it turned out, after I 7 �moved out of my parents’ house. But I wanted to move out of my house, into my own place, before I told her because I thought it would be very upsetting for me if she didn’t take it well. And she did. She did take it pretty well at least overtly. So anyway, I was out of the house at 24 and in an apartment. I was also coming out kind of socially at that point, in November of 1978. 00:21:54 GR: Now you lived in the dorms at UVA? 00:21:58 GJ: First year I did. They didn’t have dorm space for anyone but first year students. They had a little bit for upperclassmen, but very few, very little space for upperclassmen. And I wanted to stay on the grounds, in a dorm, but I didn’t get picked in the lottery to do that. So I had an apartment the rest of the three years. 00:22:24 GR: And then when you graduated, you moved back to Roanoke, you were saying, and you lived at home for a little bit longer… 00:22:29 GJ: Yeah, for about two more years. I stayed in Charlottesville through the summer after graduating in 1976 because we had the apartment through August. I had a job there I worked as a clerk in the Miller & Rhoads Department Store in downtown Charlottesville. I worked at the Miller and Rhoads here during breaks and during summers through college. So I did that up there full time for that summer. 00:23:04 GR: Was there any kind of gay student group at UVA? 00:23:08 GJ: There was. 00:23:09 GR: Were you involved? 00:23:10 GJ: No no, no. There was a Gay Student Union, but I wouldn’t have touched it with a ten-foot pole. [chuckles] It just didn’t seem like an option, even somehow. I mean, I knew what they were about, and I knew what was really going with me, but I just was not ready to deal with that at all. I had a couple of come-ons from guys who were friends of mine who turned out to be gay later, but I just kind of ignored it or brushed it aside. I just wasn’t ready. 00:23:53 GR: That first female friend that you came out to, that was at UVA or that was after? 00:23:56 8 �GJ: That was after we were at UVA. I think she too had wanted something more than friendship, but it didn’t happen. 00:24:12 GR: So when you moved back to Cave Spring in ‘76, I guess, or late ‘76? 00:24:19 GJ: Yeah, September ‘76. 00:24:22 GR: Moved back home, so then what were you up to at that time? Did you go into Roanoke and explore the social world of the bars? 00:24:32 GJ: No. No, I didn’t do that until two years later. No, I was working and living at home. I was going out to some bars, but not gay bars. Still, really didn’t have any knowledge about that at that point. 00:25:03 GR: So tell me about this moment when you decided to move out and get your own place in Old Southwest, what was that moment in your life about? What was that change about? 00:25:15 GJ: Well I think at the time it just kind of felt like the natural thing to do. There wasn’t any problem living at home. Mom and dad had finished the basement, so I was in a bedroom in the basement, so I had a bath down there and I had kind of my own space. But it just seemed like the natural progression. But I was tying the timing of coming out to this one “girlfriend” to when I moved out. So I had, I guess, thinking back on it now, some kind of timetable in my head of moving forward once I had moved out. 00:26:17 GR: So you’re basically telling this woman “This is not going to work out the way you think” and also this is an opportunity for you to come out, be more authentic in your own identity, your own life, and the way to do that was to get an apartment and move forward in your life? 00:26:41 GJ: Yeah 00:26:42 GR: So do you remember where you lived in Old Southwest? 00:26:45 GJ: Yeah 00:26:46 GR: What street? 9 �00:26:48 GJ: I was on Franklin Road, in an apartment. Not very close to The Tradewinds, a few blocks up from Tradewinds, which had nothing to do with getting that apartment. It was a nice apartment, it was four rooms. It was $125 a month, including heat. The building was owned by the church two doors down. There were six units in the building and I was on the first floor. 00:27:23 GR: This was 1978? 00:27:28 GJ: Yeah, it was 1978 00:27:35 GR: So, I take it you got involved with some of the gay organizations and stuff pretty shortly or… 00:27:46 GJ: Well, I didn’t find anything in Roanoke to get involved in. I mean, I knew about the bars, and I went to—at the time I first came out, I didn’t know anything about the Tradewinds or the Horoscope, which I don’t know if the Horoscope was still open at that point or not—but the bar that I went to first was called Murphy’s and I went there in November of ‘78, maybe—I don’t know how many times—maybe two or three. Then the Park opened in December, and then nobody ever went back to Murphy’s, I don’t think. 00:28:28 At that time, I didn’t know of any organizations in Roanoke. So I first heard about organizations in Lynchburg. Well, one organization called PALS, which was Positive Alternative Life Styles. It was a support group basically. So every other Sunday I would go drive to Lynchburg. For I don’t know, a year or two, maybe three, that was the organizational involvement I had. From that we started the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, which was sort of intended to be the political side of things. We had a telephone help line for a long time, and we did the beginnings of some political activism. I remember doing a radio show one time in Lynchburg, anonymously, with someone else. I talked about being gay on this radio show. They had some parties that were fundraisers. There was one particular house in Lynchburg on Harrison Street.1 Have you heard about this? 00:29:46 GR: Yes 00:29:47 GJ: My good friend, who I shouldn’t name although I know he’d be delighted if I did, owned that house, and it was a big you know classical kind of house, a Victorian house. So he would host lots of parties there. So that was a lot of fun. Then at some point, I’m not sure when, early 1 319 Harrison Street. 10 �‘80s I guess, that’s when there was some stuff happening in Roanoke. It gradually moved away from Lynchburg to the groups here. 00:30:32 GR: It’s interesting to me that you were commuting to Lynchburg for this gay community because I think that people have a sense of Roanoke as being a kind of hub, and Lynchburg would be a more conservative place, and certainly Jerry Falwell and all those people were based there. Now tell me about the PALS group, which I guess you’re saying was a sort of predecessor to Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance? 00:31:01 GJ: Yes 00:31:02 GR: So that PALS was in someone’s home? 00:31:03 GJ: Uh huh 00:31:04 GR: Was it mostly men, can you tell me a little about it? 00:31:11 GJ: It was men and women. It rotated from just really two or three people’s homes, I think. There would be 30-40 people there. Sometimes we would have a topic and the people running it would kind of put together the program sometimes. It was Sunday afternoons. I think it was the first and third Sunday or something like that. So yeah, that was my first step into that kind of group. 00:31:54 GR: Do you remember how you found out about it? 00:31:56 GJ: Yes, a co-worker of mine, at the time, was seeing some guy from Lynchburg and he told him about it. 00:32:07 GR: Were there other Roanokers going out there? 00:32:09 GJ: Uh huh 00:32:11 GR: It was really catching people from… 00:32:12 11 �GJ: Well there were a few. There weren’t many from Roanoke at first. Only this friend from work and the guy he was seeing, and like I said he lived in Lynchburg anyway, so it might of just been the two of us there at the very beginning. There really weren’t that many Roanokers that went later on. There were a few. Especially after the political group started, the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance. I remember that I would usually drive and there would usually be four of us in the car going to meetings. Those meetings would be like on Wednesdays at 6:30 or something so we’d hit the road right after work. My memory is that it was every week, but I don’t think it was every week, I think it must have been every couple weeks, for a long time like a couple or three years we did this. 00:33:11 GR: The Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, which you’re saying was founded in Lynchburg, would you say it was founded in that house on Harrison Street? 00:33:21 GJ: Yep 00:33:22 GR: Early ‘80s like 81? 00:33:26 GJ: Uh huh. I’ve got the newsletters, some of the PALS—I don’t think I have all of the PALS newsletters, but I have some of them, and then that’s what evolved into the Blue Ridge Lambda Press, the Pink Pages newsletter. 00:33:41 GR: What was your involvement in the shift towards the political organization? Were you a part of that? 00:33:46 GJ: Oh yeah, I was one of the few that was making that happen. It was all under—this has been true of my involvement all through the years, I was very behind the scenes as far as the public viewpoint or the perspective of somebody in the public. Although my name was in the newsletter in the Lambda press newsletter. But I never did TV or press or anything like that using my name. 00:34:26 GR: What were the political issues at that time, early ‘80s? When you were going to PALS meetings, what were the issues that you felt like “hey we need to do something different”? What propelled the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance into fruition? 00:34:50 GJ: I think primarily it was just to dispel the negative impressions that were out in the culture about being gay. I think that was the main thing. We did do some candidate surveys. I think even in those early years we did, but half the time we didn’t get responses. One of the things that was on our minds was that it was actually illegal to serve gay people in a bar, for many years, until I don’t know, the early ‘90s. When Mary Sue Terry was attorney general there was a court ruling 12 �that opposed that and as I recall she declined to appeal it or declined to support the appeal. So that was one thing that we were pretty taken aback by. It was messing with our social life, or potentially it was. 00:36:06 GR: Would you say at that time when you were involved with PALS and Blue Ridge Lambda Press, where were the key social places? I guess Murphy’s [had] closed down… 00:36:17 GJ: The Park was the only one I really went to. There were two or three other places that were open at some point. I don’t know when The Last Straw, Backstreet—I don’t know when those opened really because I never went to them for a long time. I did eventually go to them some. But for whatever reason, I kept my social, nightlife activity to The Park. Now there were some other bars that opened and closed along the way and I did go to those some, but that was mostly later in the ‘80s and ‘90s I think. 00:37:02 GR: Maybe it was the dance scene at The Park was that your scene? 00:37:06 GJ: Well I did dance back then, yeah. I mean it was where the most people were. You know back then it was almost all men, it was almost all gay. There would be hundreds of people in there. You know, it was a very exciting place to be. 00:37:27 GR: I do want to go back to Lynchburg and the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance but a question about The Park because you said in December of ‘78 when it opened up you were like “this is the place,” so what was The Park like at that time? What are your memories of what it used to be? 00:37:44 GJ: Right at the beginning or just kind of in those early years? 00:37:50 GR: Both 00:37:52 GJ: It was, you know, a very sexually charged atmosphere. I mean it was not a place where there was sexual activity going on. I mean there was probably a little bit in the bathroom stall or something, but not much. I mean that was not a real prevalent thing at all. At least not that I recall or knew of. It was just a lot of fun, you know. I mean they were open at the beginning Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and there were weeks that I would be there almost every one of those nights. And I lived really close to it. I only lived in my apartment on Franklin for about a year and a half, and then I bought a house on Marshall Avenue, which was really the urban frontier, back then. I bought this house for $16,000, and it needed some work, but it was basically livable. Then I lived in that house for thirteen years and did eventually do a 13 �lot of renovations in there, but it was just like, you know, five blocks from The Park or something, so you know it was very handy… That isn’t why I bought the house there though. [Chuckles] 00:39:15 GR: Was The Park a place to meet people for you or did you go with a partner? 00:39:21 GJ: No I didn’t go with a partner. I’ve not had a lot of luck in the partner department over the years. But yeah, I would go, meet a lot of people, and see friends… Yeah, it was a social hub for me, probably more than a lot of people, more than most people, more than was healthy probably. 00:39:46 GR: So back to the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, was HIV on your radar screen in the community at the time? Was that some of the organizing? 00:39:58 GJ: There wasn’t a whole lot of organizing with that group around that issue. Now there was, you know, in Roanoke, there was more happening with that. I remember going to some meetings for the Roanoke AIDS Project when it first began. But, I didn’t stay real involved with that aspect of things. I remember going through some process of thinking, well here I’ve just come out, and enjoying all this, and having a good time, and now this, you know, “the gay plague” has started. That was a pretty shocking kind of realization that somewhat gradually dawned on us. But I don’t really remember that being something that we were organized around, generally. 00:41:21 GR: So how did the Blue Ridge Lambda Press start? Were you involved in starting that up? 00:41:28 GJ: Uh huh, oh yeah. I mentioned earlier that I was on the school newspaper in high school, I was the editor my senior year. So I was very involved with that, and I did some of that in college at UVA, [but] not a whole lot. I did some writing for the paper, The Cavalier Daily, at UVA, but then I worked in production and I just did paste up for most of my involvement with that. But that was still something that I really enjoyed. I was probably, I don’t know if I was the person that was pushing to do the Lambda Press, but I was certainly one of the two or three that was very involved in getting that going. I remember subscribing to—you know, like I said in those years there was just so little in print, that I knew of—but I remember subscribing to the Gay Community News, which was published in Boston, and so I subscribed to that in the mail, cause that was the first thing that I knew of, first such publication I knew about. So I was really eager to learn all of that and be exposed to that and then expose other people to it with the Lambda Press, which was of course nothing in comparison with the Gay Community News in Boston, which was, you know, a full-fledged kind of newspaper basically. But in our own little way it was a good starting point. 00:43:16 14 �GR: Was it always pink pages? 00:43:20 GJ: It was! 00:43:25 GR: So many people in the community who have talked to me about the project say, “The Pink Pages.” So it’s always been pink pages?2 00:43:28 GJ: Yeah, I would not have chosen the pink pages, but somebody else’s opinion prevailed on that. 00:43:38 GR: And how often did you put it out? 00:43:40 GJ: It was, I think, every two months. Most of its life, it was every two months. 00:43:50 GR: And what is your sense of its circulation? 00:43:50 GJ: Well it wasn’t a lot. It was a few hundred. I don’t know if we ever printed as many as a thousand. We had a mailing list. We would mail it to anybody who wanted to, at no cost. And then we would distribute them in the bars. 00:44:15 GR: So you would take copies down to The Park, and The Straw, and Backstreet and places? 00:44:20 GJ: Well I didn’t go to The Straw or Backstreet much. I don’t remember going there really at all those years. Maybe the Straw a few times when I was there with some friends or something. Backstreet, I just don’t hardly ever remember being in in those years. Like I said I’m not sure when they opened even, The Straw or Backstreet. I’m guessing it was sometime in the ‘80s, the late ‘80s, but probably not. I don’t know. You probably know. 00:44:56 GR: Yeah, I think The Straw was early ‘70s. 00:45:00 GJ: Was it? Oh my gosh. 00:45:02 2 The Blue Ridge Lambda Press was always printed on pink-colored pages. People in the community colloquially refer to it as “The Pink Pages.” 15 �GR: It closed in the early ‘90s. Backstreet’s been harder to pin down. 00:45:08 GJ: Well it opened later I know that. 00:45:10 GR: Maybe early ‘80s or something… 00:45:11 GJ: Yeah cause when I was working downtown, at lunchtime, it was some other kind of establishment there, and I remember going at lunchtime with some of my guys—the other guys at work—and we would go and have a hot dog or hamburger or whatever and shoot pool or play pinball or whatever at lunchtime in that same space. So that would have been the early ‘80s. 00:45:32 GR: What were you doing for work? 00:45:34 GJ: Well I ended up in social work. I didn’t plan it. But when I came out of college I went to the employment commission and they said well go see these people at CETA, which was a federal employment program that stood for I think Comprehensive Employment and Training Act, CETA.3 So I went to CETA and they said “Well you qualify for a CETA job, once you’re unemployed for 30 days,” so they said come back in thirty days. So I did that and I ended up with a job as a Medicaid Eligibility worker for Roanoke City DSS [Department of Social Services]. So I did that. I think that was just for seven months, and then I got a social work job there, and that was what I did for the next 17 years. But like I said, it was just chance. I mean, I’d been a psychology major, so it had some connection to that sort of thing. Yeah, so that’s what I was doing. 00:46:40 GR: So you mentioned that eventually the gay organizing moved back to Roanoke, or something happened in Roanoke? I’m not sure when ALGO formed, the Alliance of Lesbian and Gay Organizations, was that in the ‘80s? 00:46:57 GJ: Maybe the late ‘80s. I’m not sure exactly. I’ve probably got some documents though that would tell us that. 00:47:09 GR: So would you say that through most of the ‘80s you were continuing to go down to Lynchburg to work with the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance? 00:47:18 3 The Comprehensive Employment and Training Act (CETA) was a 1973 federal law that provided job training for public sector employment. 16 �GJ: I don’t know, maybe most of the ‘80s. I’m not sure exactly, but at some point we brought it to Roanoke. The Lambda Press publication we brought to Roanoke and it was taken over by the Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance or the Roanoke Valley Gay and Lesbian Alliance, I think it had different names. So that was kind of who published it through the time that I was involved with it. 00:47:51 GR: Did the Lambda Alliance continue on in Lynchburg? Did the Press separate? Did the Alliance sort of dissolve in Lynchburg? 00:47:57 GJ: I think eventually it did. But I think they kept—the gay helpline for instance—they kept that for some years after. I don’t know how many. That was located in the house on Harrison Street throughout its time as far as I know. Now that guy moved away in I think it was…1986 when he moved. So I’m not sure after that what happened. 00:48:36 GR: So you were eventually back in Roanoke, working on the press in Roanoke. I don’t really know anything about the Roanoke Valley Gay and Lesbian Alliance at that time here, so there was a group that was providing a home for the press, what else can you say about that gay and lesbian group? 00:48:54 GJ: Well that was becoming more political. We did candidate surveys. We had… a name that I am gonna say out loud cause I’m sure you know of this fellow, Sam Garrison, who is deceased.4 Sam was very public and he was kind of the public face of that group, or the most public face of that group, I should say. Then there were some issues that came up. At one point the police did a major crackdown on soliciting. So the group made a lot of noise at City Council and they sort of pulled back from that. I can’t remember the specifics of it I think there was a new anti-soliciting ordinance or something that they eventually repealed, I guess, I’m not sure exactly, like I said. And we did candidate interviews. We interviewed some candidates. I remember interviewing David Bowers, and Jim Trout, who was a City Councilman for a number of years who’s deceased now, and a few others.5 Group interview kind of things. So that was primarily what we did. 4 Sam Garrison was born in Roanoke in 1942. In 1969, at age 27, he became the youngest Commonwealth’s Attorney in the history of Virginia. In 1971, he moved to Washington, D.C., and in 1974 he defended President Nixon in his impeachment hearings. Garrison returned to Roanoke in the late 1970s / early 1980s and subsequently came out. He passed away in 2007. 5 David Bowers was the mayor of Roanoke in 1992-2000 and again in 2008-2016. Jim Trout was a City Councilor in Roanoke in 1968-1976, in 1982-1990, and again in 1996-2000. 17 �We did some stuff in Richmond. I never went lobbying in Richmond, but I think some of our members did. We didn’t have many members, we’re talking like six or eight or ten people, it was never a big group. 00:50:49 GR: Was it mostly men? 00:50:50 GJ: Yeah. It was really all men. The lesbians were very separate. As I said earlier, they didn’t go to The Park. I don’t know where they went. I know they had a group called First Fridays that was a social group. I think that went on for a number of years. I don’t remember anything about where they met or what the logistics of that were. We tried to get some of them to be involved, and we were never really very successful. I think that was the reason that the ALGO group [the Alliance of Gay and Lesbian Organizations] came about, because we wanted to try and build our numbers and gain strength. But that didn’t last too many years either I don’t think. I think they were probably the nominal sponsors of the Pride event for part of the time. I know that they awarded the…I can’t remember...just the ALGO Service Award or something it was called. I got that one year.6 I have a plaque. It’s on the wall in my office back here. [chuckles] 00:52:18 GR: Tell me about Sam. When did you meet Sam Garrison? I mean I’ll never be able to know him, what I heard was that he was a very firebrand, and it sounds like you worked alongside him for many many years. So how did you meet him and what was his role in the community? 00:52:42 GJ: Well I don’t remember how I first met him. He was at that time—you’ve probably heard some of his background—when I met him he had been disbarred and he had been in prison for embezzling from a client, a law client, so he had fallen as far as you can fall. He was kind of newly out himself, I think, but with great gusto. He became kind of a fitness junkie, he ran, he jogged and jogged and jogged. He was real thin from that. He was very healthy looking, and he was healthy as far as I know. I remember Sam was the one who pushed for us to do a Pride the first time. I was kind of skeptical that we could make that happen in a place like Roanoke, but he, you know he was gung-ho, and of course he proved to be right on that, here thirty years later or whatever. 00:53:59 GR: Well tell me about that, that was 1989 I think, the first Pride in the Park? In Wasena, right? 00:54:09 GJ: Yeah, but I thought it was a little earlier than that cause I think we just had the thirtieth. Maybe I’m not right about that though… 6 According to an informal history written by Charlotte Eakin, Gerry Jennings received the ALGO Service Award in 1995. See Charlotte Eakin, “PRIDE History,” c. 2006, http://www.roanokepride.org/history.html (Accessed March 24, 2016). 18 �00:54:19 GR: Well we could easily go online and look. It was definitely late ‘80s. 00:54:23 GR: Okay, yeah. 00:54:25 GR: So what was the idea? Of course Pride is now its own organization and carries on. What was the idea behind having a Pride in the Park? I don’t know if it was called that the first time? 00:54:39 GJ: It was. It was called Pride in the Park. Well you know, most of us had been to Washington DC in particular to the Pride up there, which was well established, and was a huge event on a large scale, and we knew that other smaller cities were beginning to do it. So you know, it seemed like the next step I guess for that to happen here. 00:55:10 GR: What did you plan? What were the components of the festival? 00:55:16 GJ: Well, it was as you mentioned in Wasena Park. It was very modest. We had volleyball and I think softball competitions and there was a big picnic. I think at that first one we had entertainment. We had a small stage that was brought in. I don’t know about the first year but I know in the early years we had a variety of entertainment. We had some drag, but not all drag. We were all interested in not having all drag. [chuckles]. We had this singing duo called Romanovsky and Phillips, a couple of gay guys who toured around nationally, we had these—I can’t remember, I think they were from DC, and I can’t remember their name off the top of my head—they did country dancing and so they would do these little routines, you know, and they had their cowboy hats and tight jeans, and so it was very appealing that way. They were fun. Gosh, I think we had—the names are really escaping me—but anyway, we had a variety of entertainment like that in those early years. I guess similar to what they do now. We didn’t have pop stars, but you know, we had a few national acts that we could afford. 00:57:08 GR: Were you all pretty pleased with the turnout? Did you feel like it was successful? Did you have fears about how the city would feel about it? How the police would feel about it? 00:57:22 GJ: Well yeah. Not so much the city because, of course, we had to get the city’s cooperation from the beginning to hold it in the city park. The biggest concern was the press. Because we didn’t want the press there, or we didn’t want them filming there. There was a lot of talk in those early couple or three years about, you know, would people come if they thought the press was going to be there? Or would they come if they thought the TV was going to be there? I remember seeing some of the coverage where they would only shoot people from behind, at a distance, or only shoot people from the waist down, kind of walking or dancing or whatever, you know. Over 19 �the years of course, that concern just went away, for the most part, over many years actually it took for that concern to go away. 00:58:20 GR: I imagine people were afraid of being outed. 00:58:22 GJ: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think one of the benefits of Wasena was that it is kind of remote in a way. You may or may not have noticed it now—of course the Greenway goes right through it now where we had the event—but there are a couple of picnic shelters that are still there and that was kind of the basecamp for it, and the stage was kind of on the other side of that from the river and the ball fields and stuff were right there. It wasn’t the easiest thing to just drive by and spy who was there. I don’t remember if we had the road blocked off or not. I think we probably did, except for people to park. So it was a good spot from that standpoint, it kind of lent some privacy to it. 00:59:28 GR: You know on the other hand I’m thinking people have told me that in the ‘90s that Wasena was a cruising area and that the undercover police would come through. I don’t know if that was the same part of the park in terms of location… 00:59:43 GJ: Probably the same stretch because where the Greenway goes now the road went then, and in fact part of the Greenway is still what was the road. The road went right by the river, it kind of swerves around away from the river a little bit more but yeah, it was a loop that cruisers could make to go do that…And I think that it had that reputation for many years and maybe even still to a degree. 01:00:18 GR: Yeah I just wonder if when you chose Wasena for the Pride in the Park if that was sort of a space that the gay community sort of knew of, or was it more just “let’s find a semi-remote, beautiful space to…” 01:00:37 GJ: You know what, I don’t remember. I don’t remember that entering into the discussion. It may have, but I just don’t know. It didn’t after a few years, it moved to Highland Park. One year it moved to Highland Park because there was a hurricane and a flood and so it got canceled in Wasena. That year actually—I think that year the whole thing got cancelled or postponed at least and then two weeks later —it was like an indoor Pride event. I don’t really remember… I remember there being controversy about it, but I don’t remember how it played out. Then, I think, after that happened, after it got flooded out, that was when it moved to Highland. It stayed there for a number of years before going to Elmwood. So increasingly more visibility. You 20 �know, from Wasena to Highland, [and Highland] was more visible than Wasena, and then Elmwood of course more than Highland.7 01:01:43 GR: So, I think we’re right at about an hour. How long did you remain involved in these organizations? Now we’re talking about into the ‘90s, were you still involved with The Blue Ridge Lambda Press, the Pride organizing, which I guess ALGO was the official group doing that, how long did you remain involved in these different aspects? 01:02:14 GJ: I got out of most of it in ‘90 or ‘91 because I started graduate school and I was working full time. So I was pulling back from things at that point, and I never really got involved in things after that. When I finished [graduate school] in ’93 I didn’t get involved after that. 01:02:43 GR: What did you study? Where was that? 01:02:44 GJ: Social work. I have an MSW. I have a VCU [Virginia Commonwealth University] degree, but at the time Radford didn’t have an MSW program nor did any of the schools around here, so they had a remote program. All of my classes were on the Radford campus. The only time I set foot on VCU’s campus was for the graduation ceremony. So I finished that in the fall of ‘93 and the ceremony was actually ‘94 spring graduation. 01:03:22 GR: So I know that with Pride in the mid to late ‘90s Roanoke Pride formed its own non-profit and moved in that direction or something… 01:03:36 GJ: I’m not sure. I would think—What did you say again? 01:03:42 GR: Mid to late ‘90s? 01:03:45 GJ: Oh that’s probably about right. 01:03:47 GR: And The Blue Ridge Lambda Press, that kept going and going? Was there an organization behind that moving into the ‘90s? 01:03:58 7 According to Charlotte Eakin’s history, Pride in the Park was held in Wasena Park from 1989-1995; Highland Park from 1996-2003; and Elmwood Park from 2004 to the present. See Charlotte Eakin, “PRIDE History,” c. 2006, http://www.roanokepride.org/history.html (Accessed March 24, 2016). 21 �GJ: I think it sort of became its own entity, just carried along by whoever was involved in it, at the time. I know that there were a couple of women who were quite involved with it later in the ‘90s, and then it just kind of petered out. There was a period of time a year or two where there was an issue every three or four months, something like that. Probably the last one was maybe 2006 or ‘07. But I think I have all of them, so at some point we can pinpoint that. 01:04:51 GR: I think you gave us the last few years. The ones that you donated went up to early ‘08. I imagine those are the last issues. 01:05:03 GJ: I think the ones I gave you were the ones I had more than one copy of because I think I still have a full set of them. I do want to mention one other thing though that hasn’t come up. In maybe the mid ‘80s a friend and I—a good friend who has moved away too—formed the Gay Rap Group. You haven’t heard of the Gay Rap Group? The Gay Rap Group went on for many years, up until the early ‘90s because I also withdrew from that, at that point, so it went on for—well how many years is that? Not that many years I guess. It seems like it went on for about ten years but…It was just that just a rap group. We didn’t really have programs in particular. Usually had a dozen or so people there. I think it was almost always guys, we probably had a few women, but not that many. The first meeting, the organizing meeting at that [point] was going to be at my friend’s apartment, he lived out off of Hershberger and we had a terrible snowstorm that night but we went anyway. There was a handful of us that went in the snow. Then it met twice a month in the evenings on a Thursday night maybe—I can’t remember now. We met at…I want to say the Magdalene House but that’s not right. It was owned by the Catholic Diocese, and it’s next-door to RAM House on Campbell Avenue.8 Oh what’s that place called? The house was presided over by two or three women, they weren’t nuns, they were laypeople, but they were like nuns in every way that I knew of at least, except I knew they weren’t nuns. But they were very welcoming and we would meet in one of the rooms there. We did that for years. The group was posted in the PO Box and it was posted in the newspaper, in different places. So we would get people writing into the PO box and we would write back and tell them information. We had a lot of people over the years. 01:07:50 GR: What was it called? The Gay Rap Group? 01:07:52 GJ: Yep 01:07:53 GR: What was your motivation to found it? 8 RAM House—Roanoke Area Ministries—is located at 824 Campbell Avenue. Perhaps the building in question is the Our Lady of Nazareth Church Parish Hall at 822 Campbell Avenue? A local gay activist group, FAIR (Free Alliance for Individual Rights), held a party in that space in February 1978. 22 �01:07:57 GJ: Well, just to create an alternative to the bars. I could pinpoint the year when it started but my best memory is that it was in the mid-‘80s. I remember there was one fellow, who’s name I don’t remember, who I never met, who never came to the meetings, but every so often he would send us a bunch of stamps. [chuckles]. Cause he knew we were doing all of this stuff through the mail, and you know that was his contribution. 01:08:36 GR: What were the issues that you were taking up at the meetings? 01:08:42 GJ: Just what you would think. Just personal issues. You know, whatever you could think of we talked about. But not political stuff. I’m sure that came up, but it was really just talking about struggles and relationships, and frustrations…that kind of thing. I know one couple who met there who are still together, and who I’m still friends with. So that was nice. 01:09:19 GR: Yeah that’s great. I hadn’t heard of The Gay Rap Group. So you met for almost ten years in this Catholic Space? 01:09:28 GJ: Yeah 01:09:30 GR: Men and women? 01:09:31 GJ: I don’t really remember women particularly being there. I mean we were certainly open to that, but I don’t think many women came. Now there was another group a Dignity-Integrity group. You probably know Dignity-Integrity. Dignity was a gay Catholic support group and Integrity was an Episcopalian support group. I think they were a national thing. Very informal, but across the nation they were called those respectively. It was kind of a combo group that met for at least a while at—I don’t know if Catholics call it the Manse?—on [Route] 419 right next to Our Lady of Nazareth. I went to one of those meetings, I think only one because I didn’t have the religious angle. I remember when they started the meeting they had a prayer, and I remember waiting in the other room until the prayer was finished, instead of going in and joining the group. I think I only went to that once and I think it was sometime in the ‘80s, probably before The Rap Group. 01:10:51 GR: So in conclusion, what would you say are some of the big changes in the LGBTQ community over time? You were very involved in a lot of activities in the ‘80s and into the early ‘90s, what do you think is different since then? Is the community the same, you’d say, as it was then or…? 23 �01:11:22 GJ: No it’s not at all the same. I’m not convinced there really is a gay community anymore. Certainly not like there was in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Gosh, where to begin? I mean it’s just different in everyway. For my generation of course, so many guys died from AIDS that that put a huge dent in my generation. I think that Roanoke was, and probably still is, a place where kids who grew up and are gay move away and don’t really come back much. I mean I know that that happened in the ‘80s and ‘90s and like I said it still happens today I’m sure. I mean it happens to some extent in all sub-groups in the Roanoke Area and places like it. People move away to bigger and better things. You know if you go to an event like Pride in the Park, these days, in the last number of years, I’ll go there and see people I’ve never laid eyes on before. I came up in a period where if there was somebody in town who was gay, you probably would recognize them even if you didn’t know them, because they would go to the bars. Now of course that was kind of a naïve, because not everybody who was gay went to the bars, but you know, probably most did. I think that gay women are more visible than gay men and I think that probably always been true to a degree, even though the women weren’t going to bars so much, here. I say more visible, and I guess what I mean is they could exist with a level of acceptance that I think gay men didn’t have in those years. But now, at Pride in the Park you see more women than men and you see a lot of kids where you don’t know what their persuasions are, you know. So I think that the gay community is blending into mainstream society. It’s meant huge changes. I think it’s similar to what happened with integration. When integration occurred a lot of the black institutions began to decline and I think the same thing has begun to happen in the gay scene. I joke around with friends sometimes “you know, it was a lot more fun when we were oppressed,” cause there was more of a scene, there was more nightlife. Now The Park is really not a gay bar anymore, not the way it was. A lot of people just don’t go out and if they go out they have their small groups and they go to this place or that place. There’s not really a central place now that you can go for a social scene. Which has been very disappointing for me. I guess because I over-relied on that throughout my adulthood. So that’s hard. That’s hard for me. 01:15:50 GR: Well thank you so much for the conversation, for sharing your story. 01:15:56 GJ: My pleasure. Enjoyed it. 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Gerry Jennings Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Gerry Jennings Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Gerry Jennings Date: February 23, 2016 Location: Gerry Jennings’s home, Roanoke, Virginia Total Duration: 1:15:59 Transcription prepared by Erin Hannon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gerry Jennings; Gregory Rosenthal; Erin Hannon Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JenningsGerry https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2609/Best_Jim.1.mp3 99d0640ede418c96210fa7634e72244f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2609/Best_Jim.pdf e958e603fc1d0968a748c7964616fbd6 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  James  Ernest  Best   February  20,  2016       Interviewers:  Caitlyn  Allen  (Madison  Kunstman  also  present)   Interviewee:  James  Ernest  Best   Date:  February  21,  2016   Location:  Roanoke  College  Miller  Hall,  221  College  Ln.  Salem,  Va.     Transcription  prepared  by:  Cara  Cline     Total:  58:37     0:00  =  childhood  in  Greensboro,  North  Carolina  (through  the  end  of  high  school);  feeling   different  and  isolated  from  other  children   6:07  =  meeting  guys  in  college;  participating  in  an  LGBT  support  group  for  Mormons   10:03  =  coming  out  to  his  family  members   16:06  =  meeting  gay  people  at  UNC-­‐Greensboro  during  graduate  school  (early  1970s)   17:35  =  remembering  his  college  years,  as  well  as  working  abroad  in  Europe  (at  age  24)   21:05  =  moving  to  Patrick  County,  Virginia,  and  getting  married  to  a  woman   23:48  =  leading  the  Boy  Scouts  on  camping  trips;  interacting  with  young  men   26:20  =  about  his  marriage  (1974-­‐2004)  and  the  aftermath  of  their  divorce   28:21  =  discovering  his  authentic  self  after  the  divorce,  and  having  a  relationship  with  a  gay   Mormon  man   33:31  =  hitting  rock  bottom  in  the  late  2000s,  then  turning  a  corner  and  re-­‐establishing  the   then-­‐defunct  Floyd  chapter  of  PFLAG   39:32  =  some  of  the  achievements  of  Floyd  PFLAG  in  the  last  four  years   44:07  =  organizing  as  people  of  faith  in  support  of  LGBT  rights   47:15  =  on  the  art  of  speaking  to  Christian  fundamentalists  about  LGBT  rights;  on  the  art  of   speaking  to  politicians  about  LGBT  rights   56:36  =  collecting  data  on  at-­‐risk  youth                   0:00   CA:  OK,  So,  my  name  is  Caitlyn  Allen  and  I’m  here  with  Jim  Best.  Interviewing  about  your   social  history  in  Southwestern  Virginia.         1   �0:10   CA:  So,  Can  you  tell  us  what  it  was  like  growing  up  in  Greensboro,  North  Carolina?     0:14   JB:  Well,  sure.  I  can  tell  you  about  how  my  mom  used  to  take  me  to  choir  and  to  piano   lessons  and  all  the  extra-­‐curricular  things.  From  the  fourth  grade  on,  [I  was]  engaged  in   special  musical  events.  I  always  told  everybody  that  I  grew  up  in  Aycock  auditorium,  which   is  at  UNC-­‐G  [University  of  North  Carolina  –  Greensboro].  I  was  her  companion  because  dad   was  a  pediatrician  and  he  was  always  busy  and  she  liked  to  socialize  and  be  out  and  of   course  I  wouldn’t  go  dancing  with  my  mother  because  I  was  just  you  know  a  wee-­‐thing.  But   she  wanted  to  go  to  the  show  while  we  went  to  concerts  and  that  was  wonderful  for  me.   And  I  knew  in  Greensboro,  when  I  was  [in]  preschool,  that  I  had  a  special  attraction  to  a   little  boy,  [that  was]  preschool.  And  we  were  going  to  go  under  the  house  and  as  I   remember  it,  you  know  back  then  they  had  crawl  spaces.  And  I  think  he  asked  me  first,   honestly  I  do,  he  asks,  “Can  see  your  pee-­‐pee?”  and  I  said  “Well  I’ll  show  you  mine  if  you   show  me  yours.”  Whatever.  And  he  told  his  folks,  and  I  was  never  allowed  to  see  him  again.   And  so  that’s  my  first  memory,  you  know  looking  back  because  I  had  no  idea  that  I  was   different  from  anybody  else.       [JB  addition  to  the  transcript:  "I  was  a  small  sickly  asthmatic  child.  My  sister  was  17   months  younger  than  me.    I  had  a  little  friend  who  little  lived  across  the  street  about   my  age.    This  was  preschool  probably  age  4.    I  did  something  that  upset  my  father   very  much  but  I  never  knew  what  it  was.  He  told  my  mother  to  put  my  sister's  dress   on  me  and  then  he  held  me  tightly  in  his  arms  as  I  struggled  to  get  free  and  in  front   of  the  parents  of  my  friend  across  the  street  he  told  me  that  if  I  was  going  to  act  like   a  girl  that  he  would  dress  me  like  a  girl.    I  was  mortified.  It  was  the  ultimate   humiliation  and  I  never  felt  from  that  day  on  that  I  could  ever  qualify  to  be  a  real   boy."]     I  never  heard  of  any  same  sex  relationship…  and  then  I  remember  looking  back  from  a   different  perspective  as  an  informed  adult  what  it  was  like  in  my  high  school.  I  was   extremely  lonely.  I  had  one  or  two,  really  just  one  friend  that  I  might  visit…still  going  to   choir  practice,  and  all  the  things  that  interested  me  that  mama  supported  and  I  would  go  to   Steve’s  house  and  we  would  just  sort  of  look  at  each  other,  and  neither  one  of  us  knew  what   to  do  or  what  to  talk  about,  but  we  just  knew  we  liked  to  be  together,  and  that  might   happen  maybe  three  times  in  my  whole  life.  That  was  the  sum  of  my  understanding.  And  I   remember  the  ostracism  or  just  the  coldness  in  the  out  of  any  kind  of  social  supportive   environment.  One  morning  the  bell  rang  and  all  the  kids  were  at  their  lockers  talking  about   the  night  before,  all  the  cool  kids,  and  you  know  I  just  felt  like  I  didn’t  belong  on  the  planet,   and  I  remember  going  into  the  auditorium  which  was  dark  and  just  crashing  in  a  pew,  in  a   seat,  and  just  bawling  my  eyes  out,  without  understanding  anything  of  why  I  was  so   distraught.       And  then  I  was  engaged  with  woodcarving  since  age  11.  Every  Saturday  I  would  go  to  a   retired  industrialist’s  home  who  taught  me  to  carve  wood,  and  then  I  carved  the  pew  ends     2   �for  my  church  and  I  sang  in  the  adult  choir  and  I  played  the  piano  for  the  high  school  group   because  I  was  taking  piano  lessons  as  well,  so  I  was  engaged,  but  sort  of  as  a  servant,  not  as   a  peer.  And  people  seemed  to  really  value,  you  know  “Oh  you  carve  wood”  or  “you  carved   the  Calvin’s  Seal  for  the  synod  office  in  Raleigh”  “Oh  you  spoke  and  the  minister  designed   something  for  you  to  carve”  and  I  said,  “yes,  I  do  adult  things,  but  I’m  a  kid  and  I  don’t  have   any  friends.”  So  I  couldn’t  verbalize  that,  I  just  knew  that  those  things  occupied  me  and  I   would  sit  for  hours  and  carve  wood  and  in  junior  high  school  I  carved  a  free  form  quail,   with  sage  and  it  was  very  realistic  and  I  had  no  plans  and  it  was  three  dimensional  and  it   was  just  something  that  I  could  do  without  any  real  worry  and  I  would  sit  for  hours  and   hours  and  hours  every  week  and  carve  this,  and  then  I  wanted  to  give  it  to  my  junior  high   school  professor,  choir  director,  because  that  was  a  place  I  could  be  successful.  I  was   dyslexic,  left  handed,  very  backward,  so  my  father  wouldn’t  let  me.  I  did  a  practice  block   and  I  gave  that  to  her,  which  was  something  simpler  when  I  was  carving  with  Sidney   Paine.1  So,  through  high  school,  I  was  so  sickly  with  asthma  that  I  folded  towels  in  P.E.   [physical  education],  which  meant  again  no  competition,  no  status  on  a  team.  I  was  just  a   perfect  wallflower.  Fragile,  I  was  in  an  oxygen  tent.  I  remember  two  times  as  a  child,   because  I  couldn’t  breathe  well,  and  dad  would  actually  put  me  in  the  car  and  drive  to   Sarasota  or  somewhere  in  Florida,  where  the  salt  air  could  loosen  me  up.  We  wouldn’t   spend  the  night,  we  would  just  walk  on  the  strand  and  come  home.  We  were  spending   hours  in  the  bathroom  with  all  the  hot  water  turned  on  so  that  I  could  breathe  better.     06.00   JB:  So  when  I  went  to  college,  maybe  I’m  getting  beyond  your  question?  Am  I  okay?     06.04   CA:  No,  that  was  the  next  question  I  was  going  to  ask  you,  is  about  college!     06.07   JB:  Oh,  okay.  So  when  I  went  to  college  it  was  like,  “Woah,  look  at  this,  I  can  meet  people!”  I   had  a  couple  of  encounters,  you  know,  we  camped  out  one  time  with  another  gay  guy  and   that  was  very  new  for  me.  In  college  I  went  out  for  cross  country  because  I  didn’t  know  any   team  sports  and  I  had  a  very  handsome  wonderful  guy  that  sort  of  took  me  under  his  wing   and  I  would  do  anything  for  Duke.  He  was  very  heterosexual,  but  he  just  sort  of  shepherded   me  along  and  that  was  glorious.  He  didn’t  mind  touching  me.  He’d  put  his  arm  around  me   and  say,  “C’mon  Jim.”  So  I  ran  cross  country,  but  somebody  physical  in  a  boyish  way,   because  I  never  felt  really  qualified  to  be  a  male.  I  could  never  measure  up.  And  then  when  I   was  23…24  [years  old],  my  first  cousin  who  was  very  handsome,  a  dancer,  he  was  an  eagle   scout,  he  was  maybe  a  class  president,  and  he  was  gay,  governors  school,  I  mean  how  many   accolades  can  one,  a  very  handsome  macho  guy,  accrue,  and  he  committed  suicide.  I  had   been  to  stay  with  him  and  his  lover  in  Washington  [D.C.]  the  season  before  and  he  came   down  to  our  home  for  treatment  or  some  issue  and  when  he  went  back  to  14th  Street,  his   apartment,  he  jumped  out  the  window.  And  I’m  thinking,  “I’m  the  nobody.”  “Why  couldn’t  I   be  the  one  to  end  my  life  when  Billy  was  such  a  fantastic  person?”  So  I’ve  lived  with  that                                                                                                                   1  On  Sidney  Paine,  see  Burke  Davis,  “Sid  Paine’s  Way  of  Worship,”  The  Rotarian  94,  no.  6  (December  1958):   38-­‐39.     3   �question  in  my  mind  for  so  long  and  I  was  basically  coerced  out  of  ignorance  to  read  the   script  that  society  would  give  me  as  a  gay  person  to  be  straight.  So  I  tried  very  hard  to  fall   in  love  with  different  girls,  and  it  was  always  a  wonderfully  platonic  thing.  I  remember  this   one  girl,  how  we  would  just  drive  through  the  countryside  for  hours  and  hours  and  then   finally  the  tank  of  gas  would  give  out  and  I’d  take  her  home.    Because  I  didn’t  have  any   interest  in  doing  what  guys  do  when  they  go  out  driving  at  night.  None  at  all.  I  remember   when  I  went  to  Affirmation,  which  is  a  33-­‐year-­‐old  support  group  for  LGBT  Mormons,  out   and  in  Mormons.2  My  brother  in  Greensboro  would  take  me  to  the  airport  and  when  I  got   back  he  would  say,  “Well  where  have  you  been?”  and  I’d  say,  “Well  I’ve  been  to  Salt  Lake.”   “Well  what  did  you  do  in  Salt  Lake?”  “I  went  to  Affirmation.”  “Oh,  what’s  that?”  “It’s  this   support  group  for  LGBT  people.”  Silence.    I  said  “well  you  don’t  make  any  response.”  He   said  “well  duh.”    “What  do  you  mean  duh?!”  and  he  said  “Do  you  realize  that  I  grew  up  with   you  brother?”  “So?”  “Do  you  know  that  you  have  never  made  a  comment  about  a  female  in   your  whole  life?”  I  said  “you’re  right.”  [JB  chuckles]    My  family  understood,  but  I  didn’t   understand.  My  mother  had  always  said  “Jim,  I  love  your  brother,  I  love  your  sister,  but  you   are  special.”  I’m  the  oldest,  and  I  think  that  she  really  didn’t  know  how  to  say  what  she   meant  and  I  didn’t  understand  what  “special”  meant,  but  I’m  guessing  that  she  did.       10.03     Years  later,  I  knew  mama  was  dying,  she  was  taking  prednisone,  she  had  become   sedentary,  she  was  not  as  oriented  as  she  had  been.  I  came  out  to  her  very  formally.  I  said,   “mom,  you  know  I’ve  tried  my  best  to  be  what  you  all  expected  of  me,  what  society   expected  of  me.”  I  survived  a  thirty-­‐year  marriage,  and  before  we  were  married  I   introduced  my  wife-­‐to-­‐be  to  my  graduate  school  lover.  I  said,  “Neal,  this  is  Peggy.”  “Peggy,   this  is  Neal.”  Neal  and  I  wore  rings;  we  wore  the  same  shirts,  we  were  a  number,  and  this   was  in  graduate  school,  but  Neal  and  I  were  not  together  anymore  and  that’s  the  end  of  it.   And  so  that’s  all  we  considered,  and  that’s  honestly  all  that  I  understood.    So  it  was  a  huge   revelation  to  her  family  that  I  had  introduced  Peggy  to  Neal.  That  she  in  her  understanding   had  an  opportunity  to  know  before  the  beginning.  So  I  told  my  mom  that  you  know  that  I’d   done  my  best,  I  didn’t  have  any  problems  with  Peggy  as  a  person,  she’s  a  wonderful  mother,   but  that  there  was  just  no  relationship,  we  lived  married  to  an  institution  and  not  to  each   other.  We  were  both  committed  to  being  faithful  partners  in  a  marriage.  So  she  quoted   Galatians  3:6  or  whatever  it  is,  “in  Christ  there  is  no  slave,  nor  bond,  Jew  nor  gentile,  male   or  female.”3  And  when  I  told  her,  she  spit  that  out,  just  like  that.  Which  is  one  of  the   welcoming  verses  in  the  bible.  So,  she  was  able  to  speak  with  me  privately  and  after  all   these  years,  like  forty  years  later,  she  was  able  to  say  to  me,  “Well,  your  dad  didn’t  like  all   the  boys,  some  of  the  boys  you  brought  over,  especially  one.”  Well  that  was  Neil,  and  I  said   “yes,  he  was  a  little  affected,”  but  it  took  that  long  before  she  was  able  to  share  any  kind  of   response  at  all.  It  was  like  “woah,”  and  that  was  it.  And  so  I  always  felt  like  there  was  a   white  elephant  in  the  room,  or  rainbow  elephant  in  the  room,  and  I  remember  something   about,  my  dad  asked  me  one  time,  “What  is  69?”  And  I  said  “well,”  and  I  described  the                                                                                                                   2  Affirmation  was  founded  in  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah,  in  1977.   3  Galatians  3.28  “There  is  neither  Jew  nor  Gentile,  neither  slave  nor  free,  nor  is  there  male  or  female,  for  you   are  all  one  in  Jesus  Christ.”     4   �position  and  he  said  “Well,  I  never  would  have  guessed,”  and  he  said  “something  about   Billy,”  and  I  said  “dad,  well  you  know  Billy  and  I  spent  a  weekend  together  and  I’m  gay  and   Billy’s  gay.  “  He  said,  “just  never  tell.”  That  was  the  end  of  the  conversation.  So  no  empathy,   no  support,  just  like  don’t  ask  don’t  tell,  that’s  the  family  I  grew  up  in.  After  a  suicide  and   after  bringing  my  peers  home  with  me  from  time  to  time.  Neal’s  family  was  very  welcoming   and  it  was  like  holiday  just  to  walk  in  their  house,  because  they  wanted  to  know  about  me,   they  wanted  to  talk  to  me,  but  not  my  own  family.  My  sister  who  is  just  seventeen  months   younger  than  me,  we’re  sitting  with  mom  at  breakfast,  oh  maybe  six  months  ago,  and  I   decided  “no  more  doormat.”  I  know  from  my  reading  and  from  my  spiritual  affirmation  and   from  reading  voluminously—I  bet  I’ve  got  a  hundred  books—and  going  to  conferences,   that  I  am  not  broken,  and  that  I  have  a  right  to  explore  my  identity  and  to  celebrate  who   God  made  me  to  be  just  as  much  as  any  other  person.     And  so  I  decided  that  if  there  was  something  that  I  wanted  to  tell  a  neighbor,  a  cohort  at   work,  family,  that  I  would  tell  it.  So  I  was  talking  about  [Floyd]  Pride,  because  I  basically   rekindled  PFLAG  [Parents,  Families,  and  Friends  of  Lesbians  and  Gays]  after  it  had  died  in   Floyd  County  several  years  ago.  It  was  something  that  was  really  important.  I  had  invested   tons  of  time,  and  we  found  some  residents  in  the  community  and  she  [my  sister]  was  real   excited  to  talk  about,  she  has  what  I  call  it  a  ‘persimmon  smile,’  twisted  up  her  face,  and  she   said  “well  I  don’t  believe  in  that,”  you  know  like  she’s  spitting  out  poison.  She’s  very   religious.  And  I  said  “well,  I’ve  met  other  people  that  have  those  feelings  that  have   expressed  those  feelings,  who  have  expressed  that  opinion,”  and  that  was  the  end  of  it.  So   later  my  mom  said,  “Jim,  I  was  really  proud  of  you  for  not  jumping  down  your  sister’s   throat.”  But  that  was  the  conversation,  period.  So  now  that  mom’s  gone,  I  will  be  able  to  say   to  my  sister,  “I  understand  where  you’re  coming  from  because  I  felt  the  same  way.”  As  a   self-­‐hating  gay  man,  because  that’s  all  that  I  knew  from  the  environment  that  I  grew  up  in.       But  I  have  learned  some  other  things.  Would  you  be  interested?       16.06     CA:  Yes.  So  would  you  say  that,  you  know  you  said  that  your  family  was  generally  not   necessarily  unwelcoming,  but  not  welcoming  of  the  people  that  you  had  brought  home  or   the  men  that  you  brought  home…  would  you  say  that  that  was  the  climate  of  your  overall   environment?  Where  you’d  grown  up,  where  you  lived?     16:25     JB:  Absolutely.  I  didn’t  know  any  other  gay  people,  except  my  cousin  and  even  then.  Well   there  was  a  community  at  UNC-­‐G,  even  in  the  ‘70s,  because  that  was  when  I  got  my   graduate  degree,  in  ‘72…  1972.  And  then  the  professor  over  the  department  was  a  lesbian   and  her  partner  was  the  secretary.  So  that  was  the  visibility  to  me,  but  still  there  were  very   few  peers  growing  up,  none  whatsoever.       17:14       5   �CA:  So,  you  were  saying  you  know  that  your  college  years,  you  said  you  graduated  in  1972,   so  what  would  you  say…?     17:21     JB:  Well  that  was  from  Graduate  school.     17:23     CA:  Right.     17:25     JB:  okay.     17:26     CA:  Right,  Right.  From  Graduate  school  in  1972  and  so  you  knowm  there  were  a  lot  of   things  happening  at  that  time  and  previously  in  the  world,  so  how  would  you  say  that  those   affected  you?     17:35     JB:  Good  question.  You  know  high  school  ended  in  ‘64  and  Wake  Forrest  in  ’69.  I  spent   another  year  getting  a  Master’s  degree  because  I  couldn’t  graduate  in  biology.  That  was  the   year  of  Stonewall.     17:53     CA:  Right.     17:56     JB:  It  was  totally  not  on  the  map.  Even  though  I  had  tried  to  meet  a  few  people  on  campus,   they  were  all  basically  unpleasant,  not  supportive;  that  they  wouldn’t  fly  was  still   determined  to  be…  I  pledged  a  fraternity  and  I  was  chorister  for  the  fraternity  and  so  I   actually  found  a  girl  that  I  could  take  to  a  hotel.    And  of  course,  she  would  have  been  just  as   safe  if  she  had  taken  her  mother  to  the  hotel,  and  it  was  very  distressing  to  me  that  I   couldn’t  understand.    And  then  I  was  so  disturbed  that  I  went  and  I  saved  my  money  from   working  at  a  military  academy  and  oh  the  young  men  there  were  gorgeous  and  they  loved   me  to  death  and  I  took  them  all  around  the  country  to  visit  their  families,  but  still  it  was   totally  platonic.  And  so  I  was  just  beyond  any  solution.  So,  I  had  saved  my  money  from   working  at  the  military  academy.  I  taught…oh…general  biology,  anatomy  and  physiology,   and  general  science,  and  I  had  a  radio  club.  I  bought  a  bicycle  in  Paris  and  cycled  to   Normandy  and  spent  a  year  cycling  through  France,  and  Germany,  and  Italy  and  Spain,   Sardinia  and  Corsica.  And  worked  in  Denmark  and  applied  for  graduate  school  from     6   �Denmark.  Trying  to  get  out  of  the  milieu  of  this  white-­‐elephant  world  that  I  was  living  in   and  I  did  have  one,  well  I  had  two,  very  unfortunate  experiences,  no  harm,  but  total   rejection  from  the  people  I  met  along  the  way.  So  I  preached  to  myself,  “if  you  want  a   relationship  you’ve  got  to  be  in  a  community  where  you  have  time  to  develop  it,  not  a   bicycler  working  odd  jobs.”     20:00     CA:  Right     20:02     JB:  So  that  was  my  plan  coming  home.       20.04     CA:  So  would  you  say  that  your  time  in  Europe  helped  you  to  maybe  understand  who  you   were  as  a  gay  man  a  little  bit  more  when  you  came  back  to  the  United  States  or…?     20.15     JB:  Well  it  was  more  frustrating  to  me.  Of  course  I  wanted  to  see  everything  and  it  was  a   great  adventure,  traveling  to  Chartres,  going  to  the  Prado,  learning  Spanish,  and  getting  by   in  French,  and  all  that’s  great  when  you’re  24.  But  no,  I  was  much  more  frustrated,  but  I   was  more  determined.  I  think  I  had  become  more  self-­‐reliant  and  I  knew  that  I  just  sort  of   had  an  affirmation  that  things  were  going  to  get  better,  without  any  other  input  of  any  kind.   I  still  had  no  counselor  or  any  other  personal  contact.     21:05     CA:  So  now  what  brought  you  to  Floyd  where  you  live  now?  Would  you  say  that  that  had   any  influence  when  you  moved  to  Floyd?     21:14   JB:  I  didn’t  move  to  Floyd  actually.  I  moved  to  Patrick  County  and  we  lived  in  Ararat,   because  I  met  the  supervisor  of  Special  Ed  [education]  at  a  speech  conference  and  I  told  her   you  know  that  I  like  to  ride  a  bicycle  and  I  wanted  to  work  in  a  place  far  enough  from   Greensboro  that  I  wouldn’t  be  in  my  parent’s  back-­‐pocket,  but  that  I  could  go  home,   socialize,  whatever,  and  I  loved  the  mountains.  And  so  she  knew  Dorn  Spangler.  She  said   this  is  where  you  need  to  go,  Patrick  County,  well  it’s  one  of  the  most  conservative   [counties].  It’s  got  16,000  people,  that’s  about  the  same  size  as  Floyd.  It’s  got  two  stop  lights   now,  Floyd  has  one.       [JB addition to transcript: So, I rode my bicycle from Greensboro to Patrick County, liked it, and took the job as the first speech pathologist in the eight county schools]   7   �So  I  lived  in  Ararat  near  Peggy’s  family  and  in  the  second  semester  screening  all  the   kindergarten  children  for  speech,  I  met  Peggy.  She  invited  me  to  come  to  her  home  for   supper  that  very  first  day  and  within  six  weeks  we  had  proposed  and  in  six  more  weeks  we   were  married.  [JB  addition  to  transcript:  She  proposed  to  me!]  Her  family  was  close  by  in   Westfield,  a  North  Carolina  farming  family.       22:19     CA:  So  what  was  it  like  being  married  to  Peggy?     22:22     JB:  Well,  we  both  had  the  best  of  intentions.  We  both  tried  really  hard  to  be  loving.  Initially,   we  found  some  physical  gratification  in  each  other,  but  not  on  our  wedding  night,  which   doesn’t  prove  anything.    So  we  had  a  child,  and  we  loved  Josh  beyond  measure,  but  you   know  there  was  still  this  huge  emptiness.  And  she  got  sicker  and  sicker  and  hysterectomy   and  lost  all  her  femininity  as  far  as  I  could  tell  and  didn’t  want  to  be  touched  and  I  just  went   crazy.  So  I  was  basically  living  as  a  monk,  celibate  for  twenty  years.       23:15     CA:  Wow.       23:16     JB:  Yeah.       23:17     JB:  Yeah,  that’s  when  I  took  up  the  Shakuhachi  as  a  meditative  instrument  in  the  Japanese   Zen  tradition,  and  then  actually  went  to  play  with  a  group  in  Washington  [D.C.].  I  played   with  them  for  ten  years.       23:30     JB:  And,  so  I’ve  got…  you  know…  go  ahead  if  you  have  a  question.     23:35     CA:  No,  no.         23:37     JB:  Okay.     23:39     8   �   CA:  Tell  me  a  little  bit  more  about  what  it  was  like,  I  mean  you  said  you  were  living  almost   like  a  monk,  so  how  was  that?     23:42     JB:  I  was  very  much  celibate.     23:45     CA:  You  know,  so  how  that  affected  on…?     23:48     JB:  Well,  it’s  like  living  in  a  vacuum,  emotionally.  I  had  no,  because  I  was  a  Mormon  and  I   was  Ward  Mission  Leader,  which  means  I  was  in  charge  of  meeting  all  the  young  men   [missionaries]  that  came  through.  I  was  Scoutmaster,  so  I  had  another  crop  of  young   beautiful  boys  with  their  families  who  loved  me,  because  I  was  a  wild  hair,  if  they  wanted  to   go  camping  we’d  go,  every  month  of  the  year  we  went  camping.  I  took  them  to  all  the  High-­‐ Adventure  Bases.4    We  did  scuba  diving  in  Islamorada  [Florida],  we  went  to  Philmont   [Philmont  Scout  Ranch,  in  New  Mexico],  we  went  to  Boundary  Waters  [on  the  U.S.  Canadian   border]  in  the  summer  and  back  to  the  Okpik  program  [same  location]  in  the  winter.  25   degrees  below  zero.  They  loved  me  to  death.  I  would  take  individuals;  I  took  my  first  eagle   scout  kayaking  through  the  Everglades.  He  was  in  his  early  twenties.    I  took  another,   gorgeous  kids  that  I  just  loved  to  death.  I  had  just  fallen  in  love  with  them,  but  it  was  totally   platonic.  No  incidents  of  any  kind.  And  another  boy  who  was  just  crazy  about  me  and  we   went  kayaking  through  Lake  Powell  and  camped  every  night  together  and  with  no   incidents  of  any  kind.  And  then  another  young  man,  I  went  back  to  the  Everglades  for  a   second  time  was  just…    you  know.  We  still  communicate  and  I’ve  come  out  to  them.  They’re   faithful  Mormons,  but  they  just  loved  me  and  still  do.  I  played  violin  with  one  young  man   whose  mother  was  a  pianist  and  we  still  after  30  years  we  still  correspond,  and  his  kids,   you  know  they  send  me  a  Christmas  card  and  we  really  cared  for  each  other.  But  that’s  all  it   was  and,  of  course,  I’d  had  fierce  crushes  on  kids  since  the  first  grade,  when  I  was  with   other  boys.  I  can  still  remember  their  faces  and  how  I  just  pined  for  them,  but  look  at  them   and  I’ll  never  forget  the  young  man  who  played  trumpet,  he  was  captain  of  the  football   team,  he  was  Mr.  Everything  and  his  sweetheat  was  queen  of  the  ball  and  he  was  class   president  and  he  came  over  to  me  and  he  said,  “Let  me  help  you  with  this  problem.”  And  I   thought  I  would  melt  in  the  chair.  I’ll  never  forget  that.  So  you  know  looking  back  I  can  see   all  of  these  things,  but  at  the  time  it  was  just  terribly  disturbing.       26:20     JB:  So  you  asked  me  about  Patrick  County,  so  I  came  to  Patrick,  married,  spent  30  years   there.  After  the  divorce…  I  had  bought  land  because  I  wanted  a  farm  and  Peggy  was  sickly                                                                                                                   4  The  High-­‐Adventure  Bases  are  various  properties  across  the  country  operated  by  the  Boy  Scouts  of  America.     9   �and  she  was  raised  on  a  farm,  she  didn’t  want  anything  to  do  with  a  farm,  and  she  didn’t   even  know  where  it  was.  I  had  paid  for  two  pieces  of  land  and  so  when  it  came  time  for  us   to  divorce,  I  said  “you  take  the  house,  your  daddy  built  it.  I’ll  take  the  land  if  that’s   agreeable.”  We  had  a  no-­‐contest  separation  and  that’s  what  happened.  I  had  no  place  to   live.  I  had  a  farm.    So  that  may  not  be  germane  to  our  conversation,  but…     27:04     CA:  No,  no.     27:07     JB:  So  basically  I  moved  I  think  five  times  in  four  years  with  everything  that  I  owned  in  the   back  of  my  Volkswagen,  from  one  trailer  to  another.  I  found  somebody  with  a  house  that  I   would  just  stash  my  stuff  there  until  the  roof  caved  in  and  then  Id  move  it  out.     27:26     JB:  So  I  was  a  nomad,  you  know.  I  house  sat  for  a  year,  just  totally  no  culture,  I’d  lost  all  the   support  from  the  Mormons,  because  I  was  not  going  to  apologize  and  I  was  not  going  to  be   two-­‐faced  and  they  said  “Oh  you  have  to  come  to  our  meeting.  You’ve  moved  into  our  area.”     And  I  said,  “That’s  fine,  but  you  have  to  understand  that  I  am  proud  to  be  a  gay  man  and  if   that’s  a  problem,  then  I  don’t  belong.”    They  never  contacted  me  again.  So  I  began  to  be  old   and  in  nine  years…  well,  I  moved  into  my  place  the  same  day  Obama  moved  into  the  White   House,  so  we  were  married  ’74,  and  divorced  in  ‘04.       28:17     CA:  How  did  Peggy  take  the  divorce?  How  did  people  around  you  react?       28:21     JB:  Well,  it  was,  like  I  said,  I  was  living  in  a  vacuum  so  when  this  little  hole  comes  in,  I  go   [makes  explosive  sound].  It’s  like  complete  evacuation  from  everything  in  my  environment.   There’s  no  church,  I  didn’t  see  the  people,  there  was  no  continuing  contact,  which  showed   me  that  all  of  those  relationships  were  based  on  an  ideology  and  not  a  genuine  friendship,   because  I  could  not  be  myself.  So  it’s  really,  I  date  my  birth  to  my  divorce.  I’m  a  totally   different  person  than  I  was  then.  Completely  different  person.  I  mean  I  spoke  to  faculties   for  nursing  homes,  nursing  staff,  delivered  workshops  as  a  speech  pathologist.  But  not  as  a   whole  person.  And  so  I  began  to  visit  the  MCC  [Metropolitan  Community  Church]  in   Winston  [North  Carolina],  I  played  the  piano  and  organ.  I  played  my  violin  for  them.  I  began   to  come  out  and  not  just  among  LGBT  people,  but  express  myself.  Sort  of  an  indication  of   that,  no  wanting  to  be  seen,  feeling  that  I’m  not  worthy  of  any  influence  or  a  social   significance,  I  avoided  colors.  I  did  not  want  to  wear  any  bright  colors.  Especially  I  hated   blue,  because  that  was  the  male  color  that  I  could  not  have.  It  was  like  my  enemy  because  I   couldn’t  be  boy-­‐blue,  so  I  hated  it.  And  I  made  this  [JB  shows  a  necklace  made  of  blue  beads]     10   �after  mama  died,  because  I  said  to  myself  you  are  as  much  of  a  male  as  any  other  male   needs  to  be.  And  so  I  have  adopted  blue.  So  I’ve  got  blue  here  and  I’ve  got  red.  And  you   think  “what  difference  does  color  make?”  Well,  color  means  everything  to  me.       And  so  after  a  few  years,  I  went  to  a  retreat  in  Baltimore,  near  Maryland,  that  Affirmation   had  sponsored  and  a  gentlemen  from  Provo,  Utah  came.  Neither  one  of  us  knew  anyone   there  and  it  turns  out  that  he  was  a  former  department  head,  the  department  of  Art  and   Design  at  [the  University  of]  California-­‐Irvine  for  14  years.  He  had  a  multimillion-­‐dollar   budget,  he  had  traveled  all  around  the  world  with  his  students,  he  was  a  Mormon,  and  a   grandfather.    We  became  partners.  He  had  severe  kidney  issues,  from  taking  too  much   ibuprofen.  We  were  together  147  days  and  I  was  his  pallbearer.  So  John  gave  me  the   scholastic,  artistic  benchmark  for  my  own  skills.  And  to  say  Jim,  “you  have  innately  what  I   have  spent  a  lifetime  trying  to  teach  my  students.  Your  perception  of  color  and   proportional  form  and  aesthetic  sensitivities  are  way  beyond  anything  that  I  would   encounter.”  Only  he  could  say  that.  And  it  wasn’t  because….  And  so  he  was  just  constant   spin.  He  was  older  than  me,  older  than  I  was,  but  um….  So  I  had  that  really  mountaintop   experience  and  he  helped  through  his  fantastic  grasp  and  he  had  four  extremely  successful   children  and  a  wife  who  was  a  sculptress  and  she’s  an  institution  in  her  own  [right]..  So   John  was  very  anemic,  he  went  back  to  sort  through  all  the  original  art  that  he  had  acquired   over  the  years.  A  sculptor,  Trevor  Southey,  was  his  good  friend.  And  he  asked  me  to  please   bundle  up  what  I  cared  for,  it  was  going  home  with  us.  And  he  had  come  from  Provo  [JB   added  to  transcript:  to his apartment in Provo to pack up since we had rented the cabin in Meadows of Dan, Virginia] and  we  were  in  the  cabin  together  and  it  was  just  our  Blue   Heaven.6    So,  well,  you  probably  don’t  know  that  song.       33:11     CA:  No     33:16     CA:  So  you  say  John  was  the  mountaintop  experience  for  you…       33:19     JB:  [mmhhm]     33:21     CA:  So  looking  back  on  all  of  these  experiences  in  your  life,  how  would  you  say  that  these   people  have  shaped  you  into  the  person  you  are?  And  not  only  the  people  that  you  have   mentioned,  but  I  mean  society  as  a  whole  as  well?     33:31                                                                                                                   6  Gene  Austin’s  My  Blue  Heaven  (1927).     11   �   JB:  Ok.  I  need  to  put  a  few  pieces  together  for  you.  So  John  died,  and  I  was  worse  off  in  a   way,  because  I  saw  that  it  was  possible,  but  it  didn’t  exist  anymore.  I  was  getting  older  and   the  quality  of  person  that  I  met  in  John  I  had  never  met  before  and  had  no  hope  of  ever   meeting  again.  Because  I  didn’t  party,  I  love  to  go  dance,  but  I’d  always  go  by  myself.  Like  I   would  go  from  Ararat,  get  on  [Interstate]  77  and  drive  two  hours  to  Charlotte,  three  hours,   and  dance  until  one  o’clock  in  the  morning  and  get  in  my  car  and  drive  home,  by  myself.   That  was  the  end.  That  was  my  social  life.  Or  I’d  get  in  the  car,  go  to  Pier  21  or  whatever  it   was  in  Greensboro,  and  dance  by  myself  for  three  hours,  get  in  the  car  and  drive  home.   Because  I  wasn’t  interested  in  one-­‐night  stands,  I  had  no  confidence  in  myself,  sexually.   And  I  wasn’t  going  to  risk  some  stupid  STD  [sexually  transmitted  disease],  so  that’s  as  far  as   I  could  see,  so  I  was,  you  know,  under  a  rock.  I  had  pretty  much  written  off  the  human  race.       Then,  there  were  a  rash  of  suicides  in  Minnesota  in  the  Anoka-­‐Hennepin7  school  system   where  Michele  Bachmann  and  her  lovely  husband  who  had  promoted  reparative  therapy.   And  it  hit  me  like  a…  it  completely  wiped  me  out.  And  so,  I  had  this  message  and  it  came  to   me  and  it  literally  knocked  me  out  of  bed.  The  message  was  “you  have  a  voice  and  you  are   not  using  it!”  And  that  was  very  humbling,  so  I  quit  the  pity  party  and  I  quit  the  wound   licking,  and  I  got  myself  dressed  and  I  put  on  a  tie  and  I  went  to  the  fundamentalist  church   at  the  end  of  my  driveway  and  I  began  to  ask  questions  and  I  got  the  movie  and  I  went  to   workshops  and  found  out  what  was  available,  I  began  to  read  books,  and  to  make  myself  an   instrument  for  conversation  to  open  minds,  to  ask  questions  to  find  a  way  to  be  [a]   neighbor  in  a  constructive  way  to  the  most  homophobic  people  that  I  was  living  with.       I  showed  this  very  typical  illiterate—computer-­‐illiterate,  basically  he  didn’t  read—Baptist   minister  a  DVD  called  For  the  Bible  Tells  Me  So  which  chronicled  Gene  Robinson’s  life,  and   the  Gephardts,  their  gay  daughter,  and  many  others.  Desmond  Tutu  speaks  on  it,  Nelson   Mandela,  I  mean  it’s  a  documentary.  It  talks  about  the  biological  ideology  of  sexual   orientation.  I  went  online  and  showed  him  the  testimony,  that—I  think  his  name  is  Burns   [Joel  Burns,  City  Council  member  in  Fort  Worth,  Texas]  and  I  chide  myself  for  not  being   able  to  remember—but  I  think  it  was  Houston  City  Council  and  he  came  out  and  he  showed   the  pictures  of  these  kids  who  were  abused  and  bullied  and  they  took  their  lives.  I’ll  never   forget  the  comment  that  this  man’s  wife  made  to  me  when  I  asked  her  if/how  did  she  relate   to  the  suicides  and  she  pursed  up  her  mouth  and  she  gave  me  this  condescending…“Those   parents  should  have  been  more  schooled  in  the  gospel.”  So  basically  she  was  laying  their   sexuality  at  the  parent’s  feet  without  any  understanding  that  some  of  those  kids  were   bullied  because  their  parents  were  same  sex.  Some  of  them  committed  suicide  because  they   were  perceived  and  they  weren’t  actually…  they  were  straight  kids.  So  the  whole   misinformation  of  that  comment  just  drilled  into  me  all  the  assumptions  and  the   misunderstandings  that  could  bring  her  to  say  that  it  was  “a  matter  of  their  righteousness”   that  caused  them  to  be...  And  of  course,  some  of  the  parents  didn’t  have  a  clue.  They  came                                                                                                                   7  JB  additional  note:  Anoka,  Minnesota.  Eight  students  in  the  Anoka-­‐Hennepin  school  district  committed  suicide   in  a  span  of  two  years  (2009-­‐2011).  A  large  number  of  these  students  were  known  to  be  members  of  the  LGBTQ   community,  by  family  and  friends  and  struggled  with  harassment.  The  Anoka-­‐Hennepin  school  system  has  since   been  scrutinized  for  their  lack  of  involvement  concerning  bullying  against  members  of  the  LGBTQ  community.       12   �home  and  found  their  kid  dead;  they  never  knew  that  there  was  a  problem.  So  that  really   fueled  what’s  led  to  a  new  life  for  me.  When  I  began  to  research  support  organizations,  I   had  heard  that  there  had  been  a  PFLAG  in  Floyd.  I  researched  it,  I  went  online,  and  there   was  no  record  of  it.  And  just  by  talking  to  people,  “Oh  yes.  The  Quakers  did  it.”  I  didn’t  even   know  there  was  Quaker  group,  where  is  it?  I  couldn’t  find  it,  they  weren’t  on  the  web.  So  I   finally  found  it.  It  was  like  a  goldmine.  They  accepted  me.  I  met  Kim  [O’Donnell],8  I  talked   about  PFLAG.  They  did  not  as  a  group  sponsor  it,  but  individuals  there  had  sponsored  it   and  others.  So  I  asked  if  we  could  have  a  web  presence  and  so  now  Floyd’s  Friends  meeting   is  listed  with  gaychurch.org  and  they’re  listed  in  the  cloud  and  they’re  listed  on  the  gay   yellow  pages  and  that  was  great.  Because  we  have  several  lesbians  in  the  group.  And  so   from  there  I  began  to  ask  questions  and  I  had  a  gay  young  fellow  and  his  mother  who  really   wanted  to  start  PFLAG,  so  the  three  of  us  started  over.       39:30     CA:  Wow.     39:32     JB:  And  so  that,  because  I  did  not  want  to  drive  to  Floyd  because  my  work  is  in  Stuart,  and   it’s  twenty  miles  both  ways,  a  thirty  minutes’  drive.  So  it’s  just  as  good  one  as  the  other.  And   I  had  been  the  president  of  the  Ruritan  club,  well  this  is  the  stodgiest,  most  conservative,   most  entrenched,  traditional  group  of  closed  minded  people,  this  is  what  keeps  Meadows  of   Dan  isolated  in  the  ‘50s,  which  is  fine.  That’s  their  choice.    And  some  of  the  folks,  you   know…  I  want  to  say  isolated,  I’ve  sort  of  lumped  them  too  generally…  were  very   perceptive,  but  they  were  not  willing  to  buck  the  crowd.  In  fact,  some  of  the  members  left   when  I  became  president  because  they  knew  I  was  gay.    So  I  endured  that  for  a  year  and   then  I  withdrew  my  membership  and  said  I  need  to  go  where  I  can  make  a  difference.  And   now,  four  years  later  they’re  looking  into  grants,  they’re  looking  into  the  things  that  I  asked   them  to  look  at  when  I  was  there  and  finally  they’re  saying,  you  know.  So,  that’s  fine.   Everybody  in  their  own  time.  But  in  those  four  years  we’ve  had,  we’re  planning  our  fourth   Pride.  And  I’m  meeting  with  the  Diversity  Club,  the  faculty  advisor,  Wednesday,  in  Floyd.  (I   forgot  to  tell  Madison  while  you  were  out).  And  we’re  offering  a  thousand  dollar   scholarship  and  we’ve  been  in  the  newspaper  and  we’ve  had  folks  from  Equality  Virginia   come  in  and  Hampton  Roads  has  always  held  their  huge  multimillion-­‐dollar  Pride  the  same   weekend,  but  this  year  the  town  father  said,  “You’re  going  to  have  your  Pride  on  the  18th.”   That  leaves  our  weekend  open  so  Equality  Virginia  is  coming  en  masse  and  we  will  have   more  outside  presence  to  help  us.       41:30                                                                                                                     8  Kim  O’Donnell  has  also  done  an  oral  history  interview  for  this  project.  See  the  LGBTQ  History  Collection,   Virginia  Room,  Roanoke  Public  Library.     13   �CA:  And  that’s  just  excellent  and  so  you’ve  really  done  a  lot  for  Floyd  PFLAG  and  sort  of   building  it  to  what  it  is  now  and  so  you’re  in  the  news  as  an  advocate  basically  for  gay   rights.  I  mean  you  go  online  and  you’re  there.       41:46     JB:  Okay,  Facebook  counts  as  News?  [Jim  laughs]     41:48     CA:  Yes!  It  does.       41:50     JB:  And  you  know,  we  had,  we’ve  given  it  three  times,  prizes  at  the  Mardi  Gras  [JB  added  to   transcript:  We  have  awarded  prizes  for  three  Mardi  Gras]  in  Floyd  and  always  before,  you   know,  I’m  the  wallflower.  I  still  don’t  feel  comfortable  speaking  before  people  and  so  this   Floyd  PFLAG,  my  secretary  left  and  I  was  the  only  one  there,  and  I  supply  the  prizes  every   year  anyhow  and  so  [imitating  an  announcer’s  voice]  “Floyyyd  PFLAG,  let  me  hear  it  for   Floyd!”  I  was  a  Banksy  character,  if  you  know  about  Banksy?  9     42:22     CA:  [mhmm].     42:23     JB:  You  are  so  cool.  Because  I  had  just  come  from  Israel  and  Pakistan  and  I  really   championed,  I  call  it  the  bouquet  thrower.  If  you  know  that?  That’s  who  I  was.  I  had  a  huge   bouquet  of  flowers  and  so  I  ask  them,  you  know  I  was  going  to  interact,  I  was  going  to  be   cool,  and  if  they  didn’t  know  who  Banksy  was,  that’s  their  problem.  I  said,  “Who  can  tell  me   my  character?!”  and  they  knew  it  and  that’s  Floyd.  So…it  went  well.  We  had  the  contest  and   I  narrated  and  that  was  huge  thing  for  me,  by  myself.  To  stand  up  and  say  “Yes!”  and  [do  it   alone].  You  have  open  way  here,  fill  it.  So  it’s  just  been  like  that.  I  could  tell  you  about   visiting  this  Seventh  Adventists10,  the  Jehovah’s  Witnesses,  the  two  Black  churches,  all  with   very  positive  responses  and  compliments  and  “come  back,”  and  I’ve  sung  in  their  choirs.  In   the  two  years  that  I’ve  been  visiting  the  different  congregations  and  now  another  PFLAG   [regional  chapter]  has  asked  me  about  my  work  in  the  churches  and  so  she  says,  “Jim,  we   are  People  of  Faith  for  Equality  in  Virginia,”  and  Robin  Gorsline  came  up,  who  was  the   founder  of  that,  and  he  was  part  of  our  Pride  two  years  ago.  We  went  and  delivered  a  letter   to  the  clerk  of  court  and  I  delivered  it  in  front  of  WBDJ  camera,  and  I’m  thinking  “Who  is   that?”  And  it’s  like…  and  he  says,  “Jim  there  are  two  responses  that  you’ll  get,  one  or  two:                                                                                                                   9  Banksy  is  an  English-­‐based  graffiti  artist,  political  activist,  and  film  director  of  unverified  identity.     10  Seventh-­‐Day  Adventists.     14   �you’ll  have  a  very  clear  welcome  or  you’ll  have  a  deer  in  the  headlights.”  Well,  guess  what   we  had?     44:06     CA:  What’d  you  have?     44:07     JB:  [Jim  laughs]  We  had  a  deer  in  the  headlights!  He’s  standing  there  just  like  Boss  Hogg   frozen  to  the  wall…it  was  so  funny.  The  funny  thing  was  he  knew  we  were  coming.  He  had   worn  a  purple  shirt  and  it  was  like  he’s  going  to  be  welcoming  and  affirming  because  he’s   going  to  wear  a  pink  shirt  or  whatever…  and  he  just,  just  like  deer  in  the  headlights.  It  was   so  cool.       So  Robin  has  retired  with  his  partner  Jonathon.  Others  have  taken  over,  so  I  knew  him  and   we  were  good  buddies.  So  folks  have  added  People  of  Faith  for  Equality  in  Virginia  to   Equality  Virginia  as  another  group,  a  subgroup.    So  now  they’re  asking  me  about  what  I’m   doing  in  Floyd  County.  And  I’m  saying,  well,  I  went  to  the  Reformation  Project,  which  is   Matthew  Vines’  brainchild.  He’s  a  24  year  [old]  Harvard  dropout  who  wrote  a  book.11  If  you   haven’t  seen  it…  Have  you  seen  it?  So  he  recruits  these  world  class  people  to  come  and   speak:  Allyson  Robinson,  a  transgender  [woman],  a  superb  speaker,  a  minister;  and  David   Gushee  who  teaches  at  Mercer,  he’s  I  think  president  now  of  the  Evangelical  Society  of   America  or  some,  you  know,  big  stuff.  I  don’t  really  know,  but  I  mean  we’re  friends  on   Facebook.  So  I  went  to  two  of  their  conferences  and  the  whole  purpose  of  conferences  is  to   school  yourself.  We  have  role-­‐playing,  you’re  going  to  be  the  evangelical,  you’re  going  to   give  me  this  pushback,  you’re  going  to  quote  the  scriptures,  and  I’m  going  to  take  a  positive   response.  We  have  these  workshops  to  learn  the  facts.       45:55     CA:  Right.       45:57     JB:  And  so  I  went  through  that,  at  some  great  expense  to  myself,  you  know,  Atlanta  and   Washington  [D.C.].  And  so  I  said,  you  don’t  have  to  go  far  away.  And  so  I’m  listening  to  this   inner  teacher  and  just  like  the  spirit  that  knocked  me  out  of  bed  and  said  “you  have  a  voice”   it’s  so  very  tender  to  remember  that.  And  so  I  don’t  ever  really  know  where  I’m  going  to  go,   or  who  I’m  going  to  meet,  but  I  have  a  very  clear  direction.       46:35                                                                                                                     11  Matthew  Vines,  God  and  the  Gay  Christian:  The  Biblical  Case  in  Support  of  Same-­‐Sex  Relationships   (Convergent,  2015).     15   �CA:  Which  is  absolutely  amazing;  I  mean  that  is….     46:38     JB:  You  ask  Kim,  she  went  with  me  to  the  Seventh-­‐Day  Adventist  [congregation].     46:43     CA:  Yeah,  I’ll  make  sure  to  ask  her.  In  her  interview.       46:45     JB:  Yeah,  that’d  be  cool.  She  would,  I  think  she’d  enjoy  telling  you.       46:47     CA:  Well  I  would  love  to  hear  about  it.       46:48     JB:  Yeah.       46:  49     CA:  You  know,  I  guess  my  final  question,  one  of  my  final  questions  for  you  is  you’ve  done  so   much  to  build  Floyd  PFLAG  up  and  you  know  for  yourself  you’ve  come  such  a  long  way.  So   how  is  it  advocating  for  Gay  Rights  in  such  a  conservative  area?  I  mean  you…it’s  got  to  have   its  rough  patches  I’m  sure  and  I  know  that  you’re  the  man  for  the  job.     47:15     JB:  Well  in  learning  that  in  truth  I  was  them  at  one  time.  To  consider  myself  in  their  shoes   and  to  not  engage  in  an  emotional  ping-­‐pong  match,  and  never  bash  scriptures,  but  to  find   common  ground  as  a  passing  peer.  Because  I’m  not  afraid  to  ask  a  question.  I’ll  give  you  one   little  example:  I  decided  I  have  to  get  out,  I  have  to  meet  people,  so  I  went  to  the  community   chorus…  “Hello,”  and  I  live  on  a  beautiful  farm.  Have  you  seen  pictures  of  my  place?     47:58:   CA:  Yes,  they’re  beautiful.       47:59     JB:  So  you  know  I  never  leave  the  place.  So  I  said,  “okay,  you  love  to  sing,  go  to  the   community  chorus.”  Who  do  I  meet?  You  know  one  time  in  this  choir  practice.  She  comes   in.  “Hello,  I’m  an  alto…da  da  da.”  So  I  meet  her  in  the  grocery  store  that  very  night,  the  very   first  time  I  had  ever  met  her.    “Well,  gee,  I  just  met  you,  that’s  cool,  you  know,  how  do  you     16   �like  the  chorus?”  “How  long  have  you  been  in  Floyd?”  I  learned  how  to  introduce…  “you   know  I’m  the  president  of  Floyd  PFLAG.”  “What’s  that?”  It’s  the  oldest  support  group  we   have  for  LGBT  people.”  “Oh,  oh  I’m  so  sorry;  you  know  you’re  going  straight  to  hell.”  And  I   said  “well,  you  know  I’ve  heard  that  feeling  expressed  before,  tell  me  about  yourself.”  “Well,   I  was  a  professor  of  biology  at  one  of  the  universities  in  California  and  I’m  retired…”  “Did   you  realize,  have  you  ever  heard  that  the  incidence  of  left  handedness  is  40%  greater  in  gay   men?”  “You  show  me  the  proof!  I  want  to  see  the  scientific  evidence!”  “I’d  love  to  share   some  things  with  you.”  So.  Hello?  Do  you  think  I  have  resources?  I’ve  got  a  book,  written  by   a  law  student  from  BYU  [Brigham  Young  University],  and  being  Mormon  that  really  rang  a   bell.  “Did  he  get  excommunicated?”  I  said,  “No  actually,  he  didn’t.”  He  is  now,  because  he   chose  to  stand  up,  but  not  when  he  wrote  the  book.  A  straight  BYU  student’s  perspective  on   homosexuality.  Homosexuality:  a  straight  BYU  student’s  perspective.12  It’s  got  574   references.       49:32     It’s  a  brilliant  work.  I  had  it  spiral  bound  and  enlarged  and  gave  it  to  our  representative   Morgan  Griffith  in  Congress—our  representative  in  Congress—when  I  lobbied  with  Floyd   PFLAG.  I  mean  with  PFLAG  National  in  2011.  Yep.  And  I  gave  one  to  [Mark]  Warner  and   [Jim]  Webb  who  were  our  senators.    So  that  if  they  really  wanted  to  read,  and  I  have  been   so  many  times  to  speak  with  the  field  rep  for  Morgan  Griffith,  who  is  awful.  I  mean  he  is  a   coal  man,  we’re  going  to  burn  coal  until  hell  freezes  over,  we  don’t  want  that  climate  stuff,   and  we  do  not  need  gay  people  in  our  schools.  That’s  the  end  of  his,  well,  you  know...  I  went   to  talk  to  his  field  rep  and  I  was  really,  huh,  well  you  can  imagine,  me  and  a  woman  I  had   never  met.  And  I  said,  “you  know,  I’ve  come  to  talk  to  you  about  something  very  important.   It’s  really  a  matter  of  life  and  death,”  and  I  couldn’t,  I  was  not  fluent  with  her.  I  turned  red   as  a  beet.  I  said  “this  is  so  important  to  me  I  just  got  to  get  it  out.”  And  so  I  talked  to  her   about  suicide  and  I  talked  to  her  about…  and  I  went  back  and  I  talked  to  her  again  and  I   talked  to  her  a  third  time  and  because  she  had  a  field  office  in  Galax  or  in  Stuart,  at  the   courthouse  or  whatever...    And  the  fourth  time,  she  said  “Jim,  I  have  a  question  for  you.”  She   said,  “I’m  on  the  finding  committee  for  my  Presbyterian  church,  do  you  have  anything  that   would  inform  me?”  I  said  “as  matter  of  fact,  Jack  Rogers,  a  former  moderator  of  the   Presbyterian  Church  U.S.  wrote  a  book,  The  Bible  and  Homosexuality.”13  “Ahhhh,  really?!”  I   said  “oh  yes,  it’s  very  scholarly,  well  documented.  I  gave  it  to  my  mother  to  read.”  I  said   “would  you  like  her  copy?”  and  she  said  “no,  I’ll  get  my  own.”  Came  back  to  see  her  another   time.  “Well  gee  Angie,  How  did  that  go?”  “Well”  she  said,  “Let  me  just  tell  you  about  it.”  “I   only  had  one  question  of  the  interviewees.”  “Well  what  was  your  question?”  “How  do  you   relate  to  the  LGBT  community?”  I  said,  “Well  what  responses  did  you  get?”  She  said,  “Well,   they  beat  around  the  bush  or  they  said  ‘you  know,  we  don’t  support  that.’”  One  guy…he  said   “we  need  to  welcome  all  of  our  neighbors  and  learn  to  love  each  other,”  and  I  said,  “well   how  did  the  committee  respond?”  He  got  the  job,  and  then  she  pointed  at  me  and  she  said,   “Jim  Best,  I’m  giving  you  credit  for  that.”  So  that  was  another  high  point  where  getting  over                                                                                                                   12  Brad  Carmack,  Homosexuality:  A  Straight  BYU  Student’s  Perspective  (2011).   13  Jack  Rogers,  Jesus,  the  Bible,  and  Homosexuality:  Explode  the  Myths,  Heal  the  Church  (Westminster  Knox   Press,  2009).     17   �my  defeatist  attitude  brought  a  church  closer  to  acceptance  and  may  have  helped  some  kid.   And  I  could  never  have  done  that.  I  could  never  have  orchestrated  any  of  those  factors.  I   just  followed  my,  I’ll  say  it,  the  inner  teacher.  The  spirit  said  “get  your  butt  over  there  and   sit  down  and  wait  for  that  woman  and  just  talk  to  her.”       52:34     Just  like  I  passed  the  Jehovah’s  Witness  Church  and  I  said,  “Lord,  don’t  send  me  down  there,   those  people  hate  my  guts.”  The  spirit  said  to  me—this  is  the  truth  now,  ya’ll  are  going  to   think  I’m  a  wacko!—“You  knock  on  the  door  and  I’ll  take  it  from  there.”  So  my  job  was  to   get  out  of  my  car  and  walk  to  the  door  and  knock  on  the  door  and  I  said,  “okay,  I’ve  done   my  job.”  They  about  shook  my  hand  off  and  I  sang  their  hymns,  they  invited  me  back.  So   many  of  them  are  first  and  second  generation  from  Rwanda.  And  so  we  have  all  of  this   instant  comradery,  they  try  to  come  out  and  preach  to  me  and  I’m  reading  their  scriptures   you  know  in  Romans  and  they  say,  “Well  you  know  we  have  the  most  accurately  translated   scriptures  in  the  entire  world.”  I  said,  “Well  that’s  very  interesting,  did  you  realize  that   you’re  using  a  word  that  wasn’t  even  invented  until  the  1800s?”  “Oh.  Oh.  Is  that  right?”  “Uh,   it  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  original  Koine  [language]  of  the  New  Testament  or  Hebrew,   because  those  words  and  those  concepts  didn’t  really  exist  in  those  cultures.”  “Oh.  Oh   really?”  I  said,  “well,  yes,  honestly.  Homosexuality  is  not  a  New  Testament  concept  and   sexual  orientation  was  not  addressed  in  any  form  in  the  scriptures.  Only  behavior  is   discussed.”  “Oh,  well  I  need  to  do  some  more  homework.”  And  that  was  the  end  of  the…   that  was  the  end  of  it.  So  if  I  see  them  on  the  street,  “How  are  you  doing,  Jim!?”       54:05     Same  thing  with  the  Assemblies  of  God.    Ohhh  Buddy.  And  his  brother…  did  I  know  this?  No   I  didn’t.  I  see  the  sign  and  they…  it  just  gnaws  at  me  when  I  go  by,  so  I  said  “okay,  alright,   next  Sunday  I’ll  go  there.”    I  go  in,  there’s  like  five  people  in  the  whole  congregation.  I  sing   with  them,  he  comes  by  and  shakes  my  hand  and  I  really  chawed  down  on  that  hand  I   wanted  him  to  know  I’m  serious  business.  I  said,  “You  know,  Clyde,  why  I’m  here?”  “Well   no,  why  are  you  here  Jim?”  I  said,  “I’ve  come  to  be  [a]  neighbor.  I’ve  come  to  learn  how  to  be   [a]  neighbor.    To  you  and  your  congregation.”    And  I  said,  you  know,  “frankly  some  of  us  are   harder  to  love  than  others.”  And  he  just  dies  laughing,  and  I  said  “Clyde,  sometime  I’d  just   like  to  speak  with  you.”  So  we  have  this  hour  and  a  half  conversation  just  him  and  I.  And   he’s  never  heard  this  information  before.  No  one  has  ever,  he’s  never  heard  someone  say   “I’m  grateful  for  the  sexual  orientation  that  I  have.”    His  brother  is  chairman  of  the  school   board.  Did  I  know  that?  No.  And  so  I  go  back  and  I  sit  down  in  their  fellowship  hall  and   they’re  having  fried  chicken  and  you  know,  “please  join  us  for  lunch”…  “great!”  I  sit  down,   don’t  know  the  lady…  his  daughter-­‐in-­‐law  is  a  social  worker,  worked  in  Montgomery   County.  “Jim,  I  understand.”  She  gets  it.  She’s  worked  with  the  at-­‐risk  kids.  She  knows   sexual  orientation.  She  knows  that  we  don’t  help  them  by  condemning  them.  She  welcomes   me  to  bring  her  the  Youth  Risk  Behavior  Survey  [published  by  the  U.S.  Centers  for  Disease   Control  and  Prevention].  I’ll  write  OCR,  the  Office  of  Civil  Rights.  I  said  this  survey  is   intrinsically  flawed  because  it  doesn’t  ask  questions  that  relate  to  at-­‐risk  communities.  It   only  has  male  or  female.  How  are  you  going  to  differentiate  the  at-­‐risk  kids?  If  they  can  only     18   �choose  between  the  gender  binary.  Guess  what?  OCR  writes  me  back  and  says,  “you’re   right.”  And  we’re  talking  to  the  CDC  [Centers  for  Disease  Control  and  Prevention]  and  we’re   going  to  add  two  questions  to  the  survey  next  year.  Now  that  wasn’t  because  I  asked  them,   but  it  happened  that  they  had  already  been  working  on  it  apparently,  and  there’s  a  long  list   of  stuff  that  I  discovered  because  I  asked  the  question.       56:34     CA:  Wow.       56:36     JB:  And  so  that  went  on  our  conference  call  with  PFLAG  National,  they’re  working  on   generating  a  survey,  not  just  in  defining  the  demographics,  but  also  in  the  interpretation.  So   they  had  racial  numbers,  “certain  percentage  are  black,  certain  percentage  are  mixed,”  they   had  all  that.  They  had  male  and  female,  but  all  the  results  are  tabulated  without  any   indicators,  so  they  don’t  know  if  more  females  and  males…  33  attempted  suicides  in  just   the  50%  percent  of  the  kids  who  identified  themselves  as  “A”  and  “B”  students.  What  does   that  tell  you  about  the  kids  who  weren’t  so  successful  academically?  …Nothing.  What  is   their  risk?  More?  Maybe  so.  And  that’s  only  in  two  grades.  So  they  could  have  defined  the   results  by  a  racial  profile,  they  could  have  said,  “well,  you  know,  our  minority  kids…three   times  more  likely  to…for  ideation  or  for  self-­‐injury  or  for  attempted  suicide.”  And  there   were  three  different  questions.  They  don’t  know.  The  heinous  part  of  it  is,  the  results  are  all   tabulated  verbally—I  think  I  presented  this,  I  don’t  know—and  the  verbal  description  was,   “slightly  above”  the  national  norms,  actually  178%  above  [JB  added  to  the  transcript:  the   national  level  for  suicide  attempts  in  the  10th  and  12th  grades  in  Floyd  County  High  School.]     So  anyhow,  I  know  we’ve  spent  a  lot  of  time…is  there  anything  else  I  need  to…?     58:16     CA:  I  mean  your  story  is  just  incredible.  I  mean  really,  you  are  an  incredible  person,  and  I   thank  you  so  much  for  sharing  with  us…just  everything.  Yeah,  thank  you  so  much  Jim.       58:30     JB:  Well  thank  you  all  for  being  so  prepared.  Yep.     58:37     END.                 19   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with James Best Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with James Best Interviewers: Caitlyn Allen (Madison Kunstman also present) Interviewee:James Ernest Best Date: February 21, 2016 Location: Roanoke College, Miller Hall, 221 College Lane Salem, VA Total Duration: 58:37 Transcription prepared by: Cara Cline Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 February 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BestJim Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James Ernest Best; Caitlyn Allen; Madison Kunstman; Cara Cline https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2610/Bly_Larry.1.MP3 84bc2f250e6572f2c7e4604264ab6a4f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2610/Bly_Larry.pdf aa86a3a8db14ffad3d223b95b1baa901 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Larry  Bly   March  1,  2016       Interviewer: Meghan Kennedy (and Caroline Allison) Interviewee: Larry Bly Date: March 1, 2016 Total Duration: 34:52 Location: System 4 Advertising 322 Bullitt Avenue SE Roanoke, Virginia 24013 Transcribed by: Brittany Piro and Emily Lyons 0:00 = about “Cookin’ Cheap” (c. 1981-2002) a nationally-syndicated television show produced in Roanoke 1:41 = childhood in Maurertown (Shenandoah County), Virginia (late 1940s – 1960s) 4:18 = service in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War (1968 – 1970) 8:17 = taking a job with WROV in Roanoke, Virginia (1971) 10:08 = lack of a social scene in Roanoke in the early 1970s 12:32 = background on his love of broadcasting; running a radio show; starting an advertising agency 17:06: about “Cookin’ Cheap,” and what made the show so successful 18:56 = founding Blue Ridge AIDS Support Services (BRASS) in the early 1990s 21:23 = on the possible return of “Cookin’ Cheap” 23:37 = involvement in organizing the first Pride in the Park festivals (1989-early 1990s) 25:59 = losing friends to AIDS 27:01 = story about visiting Roanoke as an 18-year-old (c. 1966), and seeing the Bullitt Avenue cruising scene 30:42 = the ‘Cook Sisters,’ a segment performed in drag on “Cookin’ Cheap” 00:00 MK: This is Meghan Kennedy. I’m interviewing Mr. Larry Bly. Mr. Bly, what was your favorite meal you have ever cooked on “Cookin’ Cheap”?1 00:11 1 An academic article has been published about “Cookin’ Cheap”: Greg M. Smith and Pamela Wilson, “Country Cookin’ and Cross-Dressin’: Television, Southern White Masculinities, and Hierarchies of Cultural Taste,” Television and New Media 5, no. 3 (August 2004): 175-196. 1 �LB: [Laughter] Right out of the gate, you got me! [Laughter] I don’t know. I cooked over 300 recipes in 25 years, I think it was on the air. Whether there is a favorite or not I don’t know. It wasn’t a desert I can tell you that because I’m not a dessert person. I don’t do too much of that. I guess probably some Italian dishes we tried. MK: Are there any recipes that to this day you’ve kept to yourself? 00:40 LB: Absolutely! We put out something called ‘The Cookin’ Cheap Cookbook.’ In fact we put out three of them down through the years. But the last was especially a nice one. With sort of a semi-hard cover and a color photo on the front. I have that at home and there are five or six recipes that I know are in there, that if I’m always going to fix them, I’m always going to go to that book and get them. MK: And what are those recipes? 1:06 LB: Well, there is a chicken parmesan recipe that is very simple but very elegant that I like an awful lot. It doesn’t require a lot of fuss. You know the show is about fixing food that do not require a lot a fuss and simple recipes. There is a beer bread that I do occasionally from scratch that is very, very simple but quite lovely. And let’s see, there might be, I’m trying to think of one or two [more] others that I might go to for that, but for right now that’s all. MK: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood in Maryland? 1:41 LB: Well I was born in Baltimore Maryland but I did not live there but a year, because my parents divorced. The one thing they could agree on in their divorce was that I should be raised by somebody in the country and not be raised in Baltimore which was a very, very rough city, back in the day and some parts of it still are for that matter. So they trotted me out to Shenandoah County in Northern Virginia where my grandmother lived and the only thing they could agree on was that she should raise me [Laughter] but I don’t think either of them wanted me. I’m not sure about that. But anyway, they took me out to my grandmother’s house to be taken care of and she died of cancer a year later so my Aunt Tootsie took me on at that point, along with her younger sister who still had one more year to go in high school, their mother died, and my grandfather. So we were just this crazy family of you know aunts, uncles, nephews, and what have you. And so I grew up on a 300-acre farm, beef cattle farm near Winchester, and it was a beautiful life, a wonderful life and I was never… my folks would visit me but I never lived with them again after that. I literally grew up there. My folks gave me the opportunity to be adopted and I said “no, I don’t think we need to do that.” So I kept my name and was never officially adopted but they were my official guardians all through school and college. 3:17 MK: Can you elaborate on your life living on a farm in Maurertown2 Virginia? 2 The recording says “Winchester” but Mr. Bly corrected us. The farm he grew up on was in Maurertown, Virginia which is close to but not in Winchester. 2 �3:21 LB: Well it was a lot of work because farms are a lot of work. And so you were expected to work out in the barn and in the fields and what have you. For an only child like myself one of the reasons I think that I came around to the creative field was because I had to amuse myself so much, I was by myself so much of the time but it was a lovely place to grow up. We had 300 acres, probably 500 cows, [laughter] and the first thing you learned on a beef cattle farm was do not name the animals. [Laughter] It’s a terrible thing but it’s true. So yeah I of course lived there until I went into the army. I lived there through college and I lived there through.... well I went away for two years but I came back from the army, back to the house, briefly and then I moved away for good, you know? 4:18 MK: How did serving in the army during the Korean War impact your life? 4:23 LB: Well first of all, I didn’t, I wasn’t there during the Korean War. Because if I had been there during the Korean War I would’ve been seven years old. [Laughter] Hah, got ya! But to answer your question I was in Korea during the Vietnam War. That is very confusing to people it’s not the first time… people have done articles on me saying “Mr. Bly served admirably during the Korean War” and I always go “noooo,” I would’ve been the youngest soldier in the world! No, but anyway, I went in and I was very lucky. I got drafted in ‘68. And it was very stressful because it was almost a given that you were going to go to Vietnam and maybe get killed. So it was very stressful for all of us that age. But I lucked out, I ended up going to Fort Bragg, North Carolina for basic training. And when I got finished with basic training they had assigned all these people, “you’re going to go to Fort Polk, Louisiana and you are going to go to Fort… da da da da da.” And you knew these people would definitely end up in Vietnam and those people might... And when he got to the end of the list I’m standing there by myself and the guy says, “Who are you?” I said, “Private Bly” and he says “I don’t have anything for you at all.” And I went, “oh lucky me, everybody else knows where they’re going and what they’re doing.” So anyway they came and got me an hour later and said “well actually you’re not going anywhere. You’re going to go to the other side of the base where you’re going to be on the psychological operations division, PSYOPs.” It was our job...We were photographers, radio announcers, and TV people, and newspaper journalists, and they just bunched us into this big company because we were a group of creative people and they didn’t know what to do with us. So we had the Green Berets on one side of us, we had the 82nd Airborne Division on the other side, but we were this strange little company, of really fun people. I mean we were just, you know, we were the people that did all the writing and all the broadcasting, all that stuff. So my experience at Fort Bragg was really good and I had been there for a year. And the policy at the time was if—and if I get to wondering on too much, just stop me—if you had less than thirteen months left they would not send you overseas. Well, with eleven months left, they came in one day and said, “You are going overseas.” And I said, “No way!” And he said, “You are the luckiest guy in the world, you are not going to Vietnam, you are going to go to Korea.” And in Korea they got me on with the American Forces Korean Network and I was their network announcer.3 I always like to say that 3 The American Forces Korean Network is a branch of the United States Armed Forces Radio and Television Service, and began operations in South Korea in 1957. 3 �I helped make Korea safe for ‘rock and roll.’ [Laughter] And that is what I did, so it was quite enjoyable thank you. It was like a real job, by the way. 7:15 MK: How did you become a part of the Army? 7:17 LB: What do mean part of the Army? 7:19 MK: Like, how did you get there, how did you come to serving in the army? 7:30 LB: Well, the draft board. That’s how. It’s not something I wanted to do but something that happened to you as a young male when you graduated from high school. Either you went directly into college or you found yourself trying to figure out, if you didn’t want to go, how you might get out of it [getting drafted]. [Laughter] Although I didn’t try to do that. So anyway, I got called by the draft board to have an Army physical and that starts the process, okay? And strangely enough that process started right here, two blocks from here. 8:15 Mk: What sparked your move to Roanoke Virginia in 1971? 8:17 LB: In ‘71 I had just gotten back from the Army and I went back home for about three or four months. I went back to my radio job that I had before I went in the Army. I was a Disc Jockey. And I decided, you know, if I land here I’m just liable to never leave here. Because I loved the farm and I loved my folks. I had a wonderful family. I’ve got to force myself out again and it wasn't like I hadn't been gone for two years. So I thought, if I stay here, it’s not a good thing, I need to move on to something else. So I went to Detroit, Michigan. I moved to Detroit, Michigan where I worked for a big radio station up there for about four months. I hated Detroit, Michigan. Detroit had just had riots, they burned half the city down, it was a nasty place it was just really edgy. A little too edgy for this country boy. So, I started putting out what are called ‘airchecks’ to different radio stations: a couple up in Washington, because I kind of grew up outside of D.C.; one here to (station) WROV; and one to a station in Charlotte, North Carolina. And all of them responded positively and so I thought that I was going to go to Charlotte, North Carolina, but the job didn’t come open until fall. And I didn’t want to stay in Detroit until fall. So, I had a friend who worked for WROV, and he said “Well why don’t you come work for us. It’s a really great radio station. You’d be shocked at how good this little radio station is in Roanoke, Virginia.” And he says, “I don’t think you will mind Roanoke too bad.” So I said, “Okay I’ll do that.” So that is how I ended up moving here. And I never made it to Charlotte, North Carolina. [Laughter] I’m still here. 10:03 MK: How would you describe your social life when you first moved to Roanoke in the early ‘70s? 4 �10:08 LB: My social life was nonexistent. Even though I was in radio. I wasn’t yet in TV, I would not get into TV for three or four more years, so strictly radio. Then my business partner and I, Marty Hall and I, also at that time started the ad agency on the side, to see if we could make that eventually be what we do for a living. So, when I first moved here in ‘71 I didn’t really, even though I made fabulous money in Detroit, I didn’t make fabulous money in Roanoke. [Laughter] And so I didn’t have a social life. We had a cabin on Back Creek, a very beautiful place that is still there. And so, I worked seven till midnight. I got off at midnight, there was nothing open in Roanoke, except maybe a truck stop down on [Route] 220. So, I would just come home and I wasn’t much of a partying person. I had no social life and then eventually, social life started to happen. I started meeting through my business partner, Marty Hall, because he had worked here for many years, he knew a lot of people. So, he started introducing me to people who would eventually, some would eventually become some of my long-term friends in this town. And then I started getting invited to parties and social events. But, I still didn’t go out to bars. I didn’t do that. Not initially. 11:35 MK: How has your personal life changed since the early 1970s? 11:38 LB: I’ve gotten old. [Laughter] Not much I don’t think. I really don’t think so, of course I’ve been very successful in all my pursuits. I’ve been very lucky. I’ve been very successful and so I live comfortably. Not ostentatiously but comfortably and I think I have a good life; and I’m still working at this ad agency, even though I don’t really need to any more, just to sort of give me a place to go to everyday. I like having my desk and my phone and my studio. We still record stuff here. And Lindy and I handle some accounts and so yeah, we stay busy. So my life is changed in that I’m now doing this not because I have to but because I still very much enjoy what I’ve done all these years. 12:29 MK: What has sparked your interest in broadcasting at such an early age? 12:32 LB: You know that is an interesting question. My folks could never figure it out. Years ago the Advertising Federation of the Roanoke Valley gave me the ‘Silver Medal Award’ which is given every couple of years, not necessarily every year. For excellence in the field, it could be broadcasting, it could be advertising. So it’s given by your peers, it’s voted on by your peers. And it’s a lovely thing to have and they gave me one in 1989 and they did a thirty-minute program of my life, it was like “This is your Life,” it was amazing. Some of my folks told the story about how when I was a kid, I would take like pan lids and I would spin them and sing songs. So, I think I thought I was a Disc Jockey, even though I didn’t know what a Disc Jockey was and I was always fascinated with the radio. And my Aunt Tootsie who raised me, who was just a big radio fan and she was oddly enough listened to rock music all the time which was strange. [Laughter] I mean we grew up in the country and if you went to the barn you listened to country music. But not in my Aunt Tootsie’s kitchen you didn’t listen to country music. Plus, 5 �when I was a kid, at night there was a bunch of 50,000 watt radio stations that you could listen to that would only come in after dark, because after the sun goes down it radiates differently. I grew up very early on listening to WABC in New York which was a great rock station. WLS Chicago, WKBW Buffalo, I mean all these stations just came barreling in and I mean these Disc Jockeys were just funny and wonderful, the music was very exciting. So I sort of got that at a very early age even though I was on a farm so I think I was influenced to do that. And somehow I just grew this voice one day. [Laughter] I have no training, it just happened. 14:32 MK: How do you feel being described as a ‘wacky radio guy’? 14:35 LB: Well, I like being described as a ‘wacky radio guy.’ Because back in the day when we were on the air, it was our job not only to inform you but it was our job also to make you laugh and make you… Especially getting up in the morning. I was a morning man for a couple of years and while I hated getting up at five to do that job I’m told I made it a little easier for other people to get up and go to their work. So, I like being a wacky guy, you know? Because we really did some outrageous things on the air that made people laugh and we gave away thousands of dollars’ worth of prizes, it was great fun, it really was. 15:13 MK: Can you tell us a little bit about what you talked about on your radio show? 15:19 LB: Well, it wasn’t a talk radio show, it was a music radio show. So mostly was just what we call one liners and jokes and stuff like that. And no, I can’t remember any of them and you should be grateful that I can’t. They probably weren't that funny now that I think about it. 15:36 MK: What made you switch from broadcasting and being on radio, TV, to starting up your own advertising agency? 15:42 LB: Well, it kind of happened as I mentioned a while ago, that it all kind of happened at the same time. I knew that I loved radio, it was and is my first love, but I also knew that in order to make more and more money on radio I had to keep moving to bigger and bigger cities and I’m not much of a vagabond. I just wanted to kind of settle in and have a life. So, my business partner Marty Hall and I—he was also a radio guy, so he understood what my feelings were—and he says, “If we can just start this ad agency eventually it will be our livelihood and then you don't have to do the broadcasting,” and it worked out that way. But with so many other things in my life, I never stopped doing any of it. So I continued doing weekends on the air for years up until about ten years ago. Other than that I did a public radio show for a big band swing show for about three years; that was a few years back. And then of course the TV shows. But I did all of them simultaneously. I was a very busy man in the ‘80s. I spent a lot of time running from studio to studio, from microphone to microphone, and I was really busy but I loved it. It was a labor of love. 6 �17:00 MK: How has your experience as host of America’s longest running cooking show? 17:04 LB: How was my experience? Was that the question? 17:05 MK: Yes. 17:06 LB: Well it was always fun. Laban and I could be having a little argument, and we didn’t do that very often, or we could be having very big arguments, as we were preparing to go on the air and when they gave us the ten second count down we went on and it wasn’t fake, we just immediately started liking each other again and laughing and always making each other laugh even when we were angry with each other. So it was always [a] pleasure, it was a lot of fun. So, it was never one of those jobs that got to be a chore. 17:40 MK: In your opinion, what made the show successful? 17:44 LB: The show worked on a whole bunch of different levels. If you have ever seen it. Have you ever seen it? 17:50 MK: [Sound indicating the answer no] 17:51 LB: You can go on YouTube. It’s all over the place. The show worked on a lot of different levels. It was two guys. It had a lot of things going on. Kids liked the show because they thought we were like ‘Laurel and Hardy.’ Adults liked it because it was just a funny show, it was very funny. I don’t know, it was not scripted. We were just two funny guys. He made me laugh. I made him laugh. And there was all these college kids liked it, because they would get together on campus, and it was because I guess they thought it was funny for a lot of different reasons. Straights and gays for different reasons liked it because there was maybe this little underlying thing that once in a while we would get [A growl-like noise] a little bitchy with each other on the air, you know? And that tickled everybody. So it was successful because it worked on so many levels. Old people liked it because they just embraced us, they just thought we were wonderful. 18:54 MK: What is your favorite project that you have been a part of? 18:56 LB: A project for… [Pause and noise of papers rustling as Mr. Bly looks through notes] I did make a couple of notes here, in case I had to talk about it. I think one of, it wasn’t my favorite 7 �project, but it was the longest lasting project that I had… it was starting to help to establish the Blue Ridge AIDS Support Services or BRASS, through the Council of Community Services. I have done a lot of gratis work, the agency has, and I have personally served on a lot of boards and volunteered a lot of time to the Rescue Mission and in various places. But I was called upon, in I guess the early ‘90s, and I can’t remember what year it was, I just know it was after I had lost about fifteen friends to AIDS. I was called upon by the Council of Community Services to help create something, and they weren’t really kind of sure what it was. It turned out to be BRASS, Blue Ridge AIDS Support Services. And what it was is we assisted people with AIDS and HIV-positive [people] to get housing, pay utilities, and apply for various programs including the ‘Ryan White Fund,’ which to this day is a very big fund to help people out.4 Essentially, we were a clearing house for people living with AIDS to find resources to survive if they were having a tough time. And I was the president of BRASS for probably, I think two years. And then I served on the board, I think for fifteen, until we finally went out of business. Gratefully. [Laughter] And not for the right reasons. We went out of business because essentially the state of Virginia was in a better position to administrate some of these programs than a volunteer organization was. So, one day they said well you know the state has come to us and said, “You can be a part of us or we can be a part of you. But frankly, we would like you to be a part of us.” I looked at the board and said, “Why would we do that? They don’t need us.” So we essentially voted ourselves out of existence. But a lot of these programs are still there. But anyway, to get back to the point of your question. That was not one of the more fun things I ever did but it was certainly one of the longer lasting and probably accomplished more than a lot of anything else that I ever did. 21:17 MK: What are your plans for the future of ‘Cookin’ Cheap’? 21:23 LB: There are no plans for the future of ‘Cookin’ Cheap.’ Having said that, that is not entirely true. [Laughter] Nothing is ever black and white with me. I’m all shades of grey. I did... I had this gentleman in Charlottesville, David Dillehunt, I think is his name, strange last name, who contacted me three years ago, it was a big family show. He grew up watching the show with his mother who was a big fan of the show. And he says, “I run a production house and I think I’d like to convince you to go back in front of the cameras again and see if we can bring this show back.” And I said, “David, it’s been off the air for fifteen years, I’m not, you know, I’m not getting any younger. I’m not sure I want to do this. I did it for twenty-five years. That’s a long time in TV!” It took him three years of coming to Roanoke to convince me to do this. So, last fall I packed up all the pots and pans and food and everything and got myself a hotel room in Charlottesville and they found a house with a nice kitchen and hired a camera crew. And we got another person, whose name I cannot remember, from outside of D.C. to be my co-host and we sort of clicked. I don’t know whether we clicked as well as Laban and I did. But anyways, we actually did a pilot last fall. He is taking this pilot and talking to syndicators right now to see if there is any interest. So, your question actually is more fortuitous than you thought, perhaps. 4 The Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Emergency Act was passed by the U.S. Congress in 1990. It provides federal funding to those suffering from AIDS who cannot afford to pay for medical care. 8 �Well my personal plan is, I would just like to let it die. I put in twenty-five years, it was a lot of fun [laughter] but that is in my past. 23:15 MK: What is your involvement in the LGBTQ community? 23:17 LB: None what so ever. Having said that... Gosh, do I ever give a straight answer to anything? I don’t think I ever do. That is not entirely true. Before it was the LG-BG-T… What is it? 23:36 MK: LGBTQ 23:37 LB: I can never remember. Now they’ve added three more [letters] of the alphabet. Before there was that, I helped to organize along with some friends here in town, the first Pride in the Park which was held at Wasena Park the first two or three years, and the first gay pride parade in Roanoke. I had already participated in some of the first ones in Washington D.C. which was terrible for me. Because my partner at the time says, “Oh we’ve got to do this!” He was all, he still is… I mean he is a friend now… but he’s still out there working everything that comes along. He says, “We’ve got to make this march!” and I said, “Are you kidding? It will be covered by local TV and my family will be watching the local TV. I don’t think I want to do this.” But we did anyway. [Laughter] So anyway, in answer to your question, even before the organization per se came around I was in on sort of the vanguard of trying to help organize some things like that here in town and, in fact, worked in some of those projects for three or four years. And then they got to be big and other people took them over gladly and they did them better than we did them. So, but that’s the answer I guess. 24:55 MK: Can you tell us a little more about that? 24:57 LB: About what? 25:00 MK: About the things you have started here and that people have taken over? 25:05 LB: Well, of course BRASS was one of them, Blue Ridge AIDS Support Services. The Pride in the Park parade. I’m trying to think if there is anything else. No, nothing comes to mind right off the bat. I’m sure after you leave I’ll think of something and I’m sorry about that. I wish I were a little better prepared. 25:26 MK: Explain how you feel about being a role model to not only the LGBT community but to the Roanoke Valley as a whole. 9 �25:32 LB: Am I a role model? Oh my gosh. [Laughter] Oh I suppose it’s an honor. I suppose it is. Because I’ve worked on so many levels and so many different things so, yeah. It’s an honorable thing, it is. 25:52 MK: Is there anything else in your life that has impacted you that we did not already touch on that you would like to share with us? 25:59 LB: Well, yeah, I think that I touched on it ever so briefly, that impacted me mightily was when I started losing friends in the later ‘80s early ‘90s to something that we did not know what it was called AIDS. That was a very scary time. And I lost about fifteen friends in about two or three years. Which was a pretty terrible thing. And then I would go on to lose friends for another fifteen years. 26:31 – 26:54 [Removed from transcript at the request of Mr. Bly] 26:54 MK: That is all we have. 26:55 LB: That’s it? 26:57 MK: Yeah 26:57 LB: That’s the best you can do? 26:58 CA [Caroline Allison]: Is there anything else you would like to share with us? 27:00 LB: Yeah, I’m going to tell you a funny story. 27:01 MK: Okay, yeah. 27:01 LB: Can I tell you a funny story? Because I didn’t know. I made some notes so I wouldn't forget. See, I have very little history here because I didn't grow up here but I was on my way in here this morning and I went “oh my gosh. I forgot to put down this very funny story about my first time in Roanoke, Virginia, in fact my first two times in Roanoke, Virginia.” I was probably eighteen 10 �years old when I first came here for an Army physical at the Carlton Terrace Building, which they tore down a few years ago, over on Jefferson Street right beside Carillion the big hospital just across the street from here. Anyway, we came down on the Greyhound bus—it was like cattle, they would load all of us guys up in Woodstock and then they would stop and have several stops on the way down so we had a bus load of people who were going to be going to their Army physical. And for some reason even up in the valley we didn’t go into D.C. or Baltimore we came here to Roanoke, this was the regional area to have our Army physical. So the first night they put us up in the Patrick Henry Hotel which is now just the Patrick Henry, this is a funny story. So they put us, the Army must have gotten one heck of a deal from Patrick Henry… they put us on the top floor which had nothing. Two beds, a table, and a telephone. There was no television, there was no radio, there was nothing. I mean it was just this bare room. Because we were going to go in early the next morning for our Army physicals. So, you know we were all nervous because we might be sent to Vietnam and killed. And so I couldn't sleep. So, I opened up the window of the Patrick Henry Hotel on the top floor. Well you can do things back in those days and they didn’t have any safety stuff like they do today. And I was sitting up there and it was one o’clock in the morning, which was late for me. And I’m looking down on Bullitt Avenue, which is right in front of this building but it used to go all the way across before they put the interstate in. But if you go on the other side of the interstate, Bullitt Avenue is still there, right in front of the Patrick Henry. So [it was there at] Bullitt and Jefferson. So I’m sitting up there and I’m just a country boy, dumb as a post, and I’m looking down on and I’m going “what are all of these people doing out here at this time, why aren’t they in bed? Why don’t they go to bed? What are they doing?” And there are people racing up and down, you know, there was a parking garage next to it, racing in and out of the parking garage and all this nonsense. I didn’t know until many years later—and it happened again two years later when I came down for another physical, that time they put me in the Army—but what I didn’t know until many years later after I moved to Roanoke and got to know people that grew up here was that was the gay cruising block! I didn’t know what all this craziness was down below me, I thought, “What?” I guess people were picking people up or getting to know people and I didn’t even know what that was. It had to be explained to me, but I thought that was very funny. My first two times in Roanoke that’s what I saw. [Laughter] But I’m trying to think if there is anything else that I would like to impart to you. Just give me a second. [Laughter] 30:09 MK: Okay 30:10 LB: But I did think about that. Did we go into the bars? All the Bars? Has anybody told you about how many bars we had here? 30:17 CA: Yes. MK: Yes. 30:19 11 �LB: Oh my gosh. A real long list of them. And supposedly The Trade Winds was supposedly the first one in the state. I find that a little hard to believe but, anyway. I think that’s pretty much, I can’t think of anything else that I wanted to tell you. I’m surprised that you didn’t ask me about the ‘Cook Sisters.’ Do you know about the ‘Cook Sisters’? 30:41 MK: No. 30:42 LB: Well, let me tell you this. The ‘Cook Sisters’ was a part of ‘Cookin’ Cheap’ and it was Laban and me in drag. And it wasn’t pretty, I can tell you that. It was old women, funny drag. Okay? But here is how it came about. The TV station came to us and said—we put the show on the air and it was an immediate hit—and about three or four years later somebody at the station came down and said to Laban and me and said, “Well you know this is public TV and at one time was called educational TV and while your show is very funny it doesn't impart anything other than humor. A lot of kids watch and a lot of people, don’t you think... Could you come up with a segment? Or maybe you could give some tips or something. You know? Household tips, cooking tips, what have you.” And we said, “That sounds kind of dull and dry to us.” And they said, “Well you know? We think you need to get something a little educational on your show instead of just doing it for laughs.” So Laban and I got together one evening and we came up with the idea of the ‘Cook Sisters.’ We said, “What if we have these two old biddies in really bad drag and they give cooking tips or cleaning tips?” But they do it for laughs, as we did everything else, because we thought to just stop and do that would kill the forward motion of the show, you know? So we came up with the ‘Cook Sisters’ and two wonderful outfits and well they just become an immediate hit. I thought well, “we’ll [just] do this for a year. I don’t want to appear on TV in a dress for very long.” Because I’m running an ad agency. Well the ‘Cook Sisters’ just took off. People loved them, they thought they were funny, they were named ‘Tootsie Cook’ after my Aunt Tootsie who raised me, and ‘Sister Cook’ after Laban’s Aunt Sister. That was her name, Aunt Sister. So anyway, they become a huge hit and the TV station just had a fit. The management came to us and said, “This really wasn’t quite what we had in mind.” And we said, “Well, this is what you got. You either go with that or we’re not going to do this.” So, then they become so popular we couldn’t get rid of them. So they stayed for the show, for the entire rest of the run. It was the only part of the show, by the way, that was pre-taped because obviously we couldn't jump into an outfit on the air. The show was done in real time beginning to end just like this interview is. No stops. No edits. Twenty-seven minutes, from the time they pointed the finger and gave us the ten-second countdown. The only way we could do the ‘Cook Sisters’ was to pre-record it. We would do an entire season’s worth in one sitting. We would do it sometimes on my back deck, sometimes we did it at someone’s home. And we did all thirteen for the, or twenty-six, for the twenty-six series. And so we would just call one (segment) and they would just bring it up. But it was the only part of the show that was ever taped. But yeah, to this day, and I’ll tell you a very funny story: One day I’m sitting at the Waffle House on Franklin Road reading the newspaper, and some big burly truck driver comes in and sits down beside me and I could see he was sort of looking at me in the corner of his eye. And I thought, “Oh boy, this ought to be really interesting.” And he said, “Are you the guy on that cooking show?” and I said, “Yeah.” and he said, “Gee your hilarious. I’ve just got to tell you those dag gon Cook Sisters are the funniest thing!” Something you wouldn’t expect to hear from a truck driver. But, you know, 12 �it just had this universal [Laughter] universal appeal, I guess. So that’s how they came to be, because if you didn’t have that on there someone would ask you about that, okay? 34:35 MK: Thank you. CA: Yes, thank you so much. 34:38 LB: Well, you all were just too much fun. Such a pleasure. I hope that I didn’t disappoint you. 34:44 Shutting down the recording device. 34:52 END 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Larry Bly Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Larry Bly Interviewer: Meghan Kennedy (and Caroline Allison) Interviewee: Larry Bly Date: 1 March 2016 Location: System 4 Advertising, 322 Bullitt Avenue SE, Roanoke, VA Total Duration: 34:52 Transcription prepared by: Brittany Piro and Emily Lyons Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1 March 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Larry Bly; Meghan Kennedy; Caroline Allison; Brittany Piro; Emily Lyons Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlyLarry https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2611/Conley_Whitney.1.MP3 84f15be62100d956c92f248202d0f701 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2611/Conley_Whitney.pdf 7d2c2992cf3711565ab7c1d3402ec15b PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Whitney B. Conley February 26, 2016 Interviewer: Julie Frymier Interviewee: Whitney B. Conley Date: February 26, 2016 Location: Roanoke College, Miller Hall, Room 219 Transcription prepared by: Christina Taylor and Victoria Sage 0:00 = changes in Roanoke since moving here in the early 1980s 4:11 = coming out to family members, including her parents and her children 8:04 = on relationships with the local LGBTQ community 10:37 = the gay bar and restaurant scene in Roanoke 11:40 = more on coming out 13:32 = the story of her long custody battle over her children 20:33 = discovering her identity as a lesbian 25:58 = fears of discrimination based on sexual orientation 30:13 = violence directed against LGBTQ folks 34:24 = violence specifically targeted against transgender persons 40:26 = reflections on her transgender (MTF) niece & the world that she faces 46:12 = reflections on motherhood and being a parent to two kids 47:28 = on the differences between being straight and gay 49:54 = on living together with her partner & their planned move to Raleigh, North Carolina 00:08 JF: My name is Julie Frymier. Today is February 26, 2016. We are interviewing Whitney Conley in Miller 219 at Roanoke College. When and where were you born? 00:30 WC: When was April 12, 1968, and I was born in Raleigh County, West Virginia. 00:36 JF: And how long have you lived in the Roanoke/Salem area?   1   �00:42 WC: I’ve lived in Roanoke city since 1982, I believe… ‘81 or ‘82. 00:55 JF: And were you born into any particular ethnic, national, racial, or religious groups? 01:01 WC: No. Just Caucasian. 01:03 JF: What was your experience with the community of Roanoke? 01:08 WC: As far as? ... just? 01:12 JF: Interaction, people. 01:16 WC: I went to school here. I grew up in New Jersey up until about the 8th grade, and then I came back here. My family is from here. I went to high school here. Normal kids getting into trouble just like everybody else. After that, I went to a travel school in Pittsburgh and came back and had a fifteen / sixteen-year career in the travel and hospitality industry until the bottom dropped out with 9/11. Other than that, I’m just living here. I mean it’s a good town to raise kids. People are generally nice. There’s a difference between “Salemites” and “Roanokers” and I’m sure you’re aware of that. In general, you know, it’s changed. It’s grown quite a bit from when we came back from New Jersey. But all in all, it has its ups and it has its downs. 02:13 JF: Could you tell me more about how it’s changed over the time? 02:17 WC: Well, it’s definitely grown in population. I can remember when Valley View Mall was not Valley View Mall. It was the Huff Farm. We got in trouble on that farm a couple few times. Hershberger Road was two lanes, going that way and coming this way and that was it. So, it really has grown quite a bit just over the last few years. I’ve noticed, well actually, this has been happening for quite a while, Roanoke has really been enticing elderly people to retire here. The unfortunate down side to that is, they don’t want to pay taxes, certainly not educational taxes, and that hurts the school divisions I think. We could’ve been Charlotte [North Carolina]. We really could’ve been Charlotte. And well, we’re not because of some really piss poor decisions of our leaders. 03:13 JF: And so, what has been some of the most important events in your life?   2   �03:20 WC: Important events… I would probably start… I would say a turning point in my life was probably when my dad died in 1982 when I was thirteen getting ready to turn fourteen. Then, not too long after that, I went through a huge depression with all of that. My sister was diagnosed with Hodgkin’s disease. She was seven or eight. And my teenage years were just not good. Then, I would say getting married, having kids, you know, your typical huge events, but nothing I would say catastrophic. 04:11 JF: What is your sexual orientation, and your gender identity? 04:16 WC: Well, I’m gay/lesbian. In today’s world there’s so many definitions. I just say gay female. I’m female, not transgender or anything, strictly female. 04:34 JF: What was your family’s reaction to you coming out? I know you’ve mentioned having children. 04:39 WC: The children… my youngest really wasn’t old enough to understand. He was… oh gosh… my oldest was twelve, so five and a half years, seven, so my youngest was seven. My oldest did not take it very well at all. I was divorced from their father. When the father found out about it, that’s when kind of all hell broke loose. The custody battle and all that. And he sued. 05:19 JF: Did you anticipate that your sexual orientation would cause such an issue, and how did that make you feel internally? 05:30 WC: I don’t really think that… well… let me back up just a little bit. I was in a relationship prior to my kids finding out. So they did not know about that relationship. I had told my mother. I had come out to my mother at that point. She’s from the ‘60s generation. Nothing really surprised her much, and my sister had had a female affair as well and she’s not gay, but you know, most people experience that at some point in their lives. The coming out, as far as with my children, came with the second relationship, but I didn’t give it much thought I don’t think. I really did not think that it was going to be as big a deal as it really was. 06:26 JF: How did the relationship change within your family after you came out? 06:31   3   �WC: It didn’t, not as far as like my mother, my relationship with my mother. My grandmother, she was on my mother’s side [maternal grandmother], she didn’t say anything about it, but you knew because of religion and stuff, she didn’t accept it. But she didn’t treat me any different. But, by that point, she was so getting to the point of dementia and all that. My other grandmother on my father’s side—well my grandfather on my father’s side he was already in full blown Alzheimer’s—but my grandmother she was cool. She loved Terri to death, and that was like her second granddaughter, so on and so on. The dynamics there didn’t really change much. 07:17 JF: What challenges do you think we still have within things that need to be done within changes in the LGBT community here at Roanoke, or here within Salem and Roanoke? 07:29 WC: Well as far as the College itself [Roanoke College], I was only going here for one semester, which was last semester, and of course I had to drop because of some personal things going on in my family, had nothing to do with the gay issue. But, no one knew I was gay, so I couldn’t answer that question honestly. I couldn’t give you an honest answer. 07:54 JF: What was life like for you identifying as a lesbian then when you first came out, and how have things changed now? 08:04 WC: You mean as far as my personal [life] out in the community? 08:09 JF: Yes 08:17 WC: When I had my first relationship, it was with a girl I had worked with who I knew from high school. It was a very tumultuous relationship. And she ended up losing her job, but then 9/11 happened and then I lost mine being laid off—half of the whole staff was laid off. But the people there at work knew, but that didn’t really change anything. They really kind of helped me get out of that relationship. But as far as the community, and I hate to say this but its really true, I don’t look the gay part. I don’t have a shaved head. I don’t have—and I hate the word—the “dyke” look. I don’t have that. I can get away with more things in the community. It’s true. It’s the unfortunate side of it. So, it really hasn’t changed for me honestly. 09:24 JF: Ok. And do you volunteer, or have you ever volunteered for an LGBT organization? 09:33   4   �WC: No, I don’t have time to. 09:37 JF: Do you feel as though Roanoke and Southwest Virginia / Roanoke has enough of these groups and communities for the LGBTQ communities? That they have enough resources and groups? 09:50 WC: You know this is a really odd thing, I don’t know. Because, our friends are gay, but no one really talks about it. No one seems to be involved in anything. There’s the Pride in the Park. Never have been to it. Just not something… some people don’t go out in the community, especially teachers don’t go out in the community because they don’t want to be found out. For whatever their reason is, I don’t know if that’s retaliation in their employment, which wouldn’t surprise me. So, there are things around the community, but …I don’t know… 10:37 JF: Ok. What community spaces do you frequent? Where do you like to go? 10:51 WC: Well, I used to go... I don’t really go out anymore. Macado’s downtown would’ve been like the gay hangout. We would go to Community Inn, gay friendly. I’ve been to the Park, the dance club. It’s not quite my scene, but that’s been around for eons. My sister used to go there in high school to dance. But, a lot of the times, it was mainly getting together with friends at their homes. That’s kind of what we all did. We did that. Or we met at Macado’s for a Friday evening or something like that. That was about it. 11:40 JF: Great. And how were your friends supportive in the ways that you chose to come out and things like that? 11:47 WC: When I came out, I wasn’t really what you would consider in the community. I just came out when I was dating this girl. She’s not gay. It was just one of those fly by night relationships that just developed. It wasn’t until I met Terri that I was kind of introduced to the community. So, I didn’t have the typical, “I need to go to a gay place to learn to come out.” I just kind of, there I was. 12:16 JF: Great. And how have your plans changed from when you were younger to where you are today? 12:27 WC: As far as….? Life plans? 12:33   5   �JF: Life plans, life goals. 12:37 WC: Well, eventually I would like to go back and get my bachelors. I have the associates [degree] but I want to go on to get the bachelors wherever I land. At this particular moment, my goal is, because my partner took a job in Raleigh, and we’ve been apart for almost three years, so it’s time to come back together, so that’s why we are selling the house here and gonna find a house down there and proceed with life at that point. The kids are no longer in Roanoke. They’re in Denver now. So, I don’t have that to deal with on a daily basis. I don’t know. We’ll see where life takes me at this point. 13:22 JF: Has the relationship changed with your children at all? With, you know, coming out? How has that changed? 13:32 WC: They held a lot of guilt. Well, Spencer, my oldest, did hold a lot of that. We were in a custody battle for about two years. And now that he’s an adult and looking back on it, he would have rather done that a little differently, and not been so upset. But they’re very welcoming. They love Terri to death. We’re never going to [all] get along, but that’s typical of family. You know, as a kid you don’t know how to react to things, and it was just a reaction. And instead of sitting down at the table and talking about it, the dad just decided to take me to court and he won in the state of Virginia. That’s kind of what happened. 14:26 JF: Could you tell me more about that? More about the court cases, like in what ways did you struggle? 14:34 WC: Well, that was really difficult. When we first went to court, basically it was in juvenile court and he [the judge?] just said “They’re gone. They go to him.” And we had been divorced for several years and we had joint legal custody, but I had the primary care, that means that the child lives with me primarily, and then goes to see the father, you know, whenever the set time was, and so the judge just ripped them out and said “No, now they’re with the dad.” And then, we had to have social services involved. The children were given a guardian ad litem, which is a lawyer that is designated by the court to handle them in all of this. So, yeah, it was difficult. It was really difficult to lose your kids just like that, just because of who you are. Or because you know, you want to live your life. And I was a little bit like, “you’re not going to tell me how to live my life.” But going back, I really would’ve given it a lot more thought and not been so prideful at the time, I probably would’ve changed my mind, because the judge did give me a chance. He said, “if you’re willing to give up that relationship, you can have your kids.” And I was like, “wait a minute, why can you tell me what I can and can’t do with my life?” Like, nobody’s getting hurt but, I made the decision and... Needless to say, we lost that. That was about a year’s worth of battling back and forth. And once that was settled, and when   6   �the social services—and this is what really was the kicker—when the lady from social services came in, she basically said, “this is my personal opinion,” and you’ll never be able to see the court case, because it’s a closed case, because its sealed, but this is what she said, “it is my personal opinion that people should not live together.” She didn’t say gay people, she said people. Now, my children had already seen Michael Chiglinsky, which was a child psychologist and he wrote up documentations saying there is no proof whatsoever that gay relationships harm children in any way, shape, or form. The guardian ad litem for the children could not find anything in my background or in our home visits or anything that would lead to any conclusion that the relationship was harming my children. It’s just, by the social worker saying that one statement, the judge said, “That’s it, they’re going to dad.” So then after that, we proceeded to circuit court. By that point, by the end of the circuit court, which was almost a year, the children had been in his primary care for over a year and circuit court said, “First of all, juvenile court judge did not do the right thing. He should’ve never ripped the kids away until after all the documentation, all the visits, were done, and everything…” But he said “at this point, the kids have already resettled, so I can’t fairly justify taking them away from their father at this point.” So, that was tough. Then, next chapter. Then, when the father finally realized that it takes quite a bit to take care of the kids, one by one, I got them back. So, that’s how that worked out. 18:33 JF: Can you tell me more about that, the process of getting your children back? 18:39 WC: Well, Spencer, by that point, was about fourteen. He’s the oldest. You know, doing the typical stuff: escaping out of the bedroom in the middle of the night to meet up with the friends, or not coming home when he’s supposed to, and the dad would say, “well what are you going to do about it?” and I would say, “well I can’t do anything about it, I don’t live there. I can’t control what happens at your house, I can only control what happens at my house. But I will stand by you with punishments and things of that nature.” But it was just repetitive issues: skipping school, just your typical stuff. He didn’t want to deal with it. He would keep asking me what I was going to do with them. And I told him, “I can’t do anything.” So he ended up signing rights back over to me for Spencer. Mason, on the other hand, which was the younger, stayed with him. And he ended up ripping Mason out of the schools that he had grown up in, and taking him to the county schools, and that was a complete disaster, so Mason started doing his now new normal teenager activities and it just finally came down to where Mason did not want to go back to his dad’s. And I had to say well, “I can’t allow you to stay here unless all of this is reverted back to me.” So it took a little prodding but yeah, his dad eventually signed him back over to me. 20:13 JF: Great. 20:15 WC: Life lesson: be careful what you ask for! [laughter]   7   �20:33 JF: What are some things that you wish you were told growing up about LGBT issues? 20:42 WC: I don’t know that I knew what gay people were when I was growing up. I mean, I knew what they were, but it wasn’t something that was discussed, or I never was around anybody that knew they were gay. I don’t really…to think about it, I don’t think I ever was around anybody that was gay. Or if they were gay, I didn’t know about it as a kid. So, yeah. 21:16 JF: When and where did you realize that the heterosexual lifestyle wasn’t your forte? 21:26 WC: Probably when I met Leslie. That was the first relationship. Or I guess, yeah, I guess I knew who she was in high school, but we finally met at work. But it answered a lot of questions, I think. Probably from how I was feeling about things growing up in high school… more so high school. As a young kid, I wouldn’t have known the difference. I was a tomboy. I played with boys. But I still had a baby doll. I still played with baby dolls. My sister played with Barbie’s, I rode her little scooter down the driveway all the time, ruining half of her Barbie’s toys. Yeah, I was a tomboy. But it does answer a lot of questions. Not that being a tomboy makes you gay or anything, ‘cause it doesn’t. But it did kind of bring to light some things that stood out maybe. 22:26 JF: What are some of these things that stood out for you? 22:31 WC: Well, now I know why I like my best friend so much. [laughter] Probably that type of thing, and why I always felt an attraction for women. I think women feel attractions for each other anyway, whether they’re gay or straight, but mine was fairly strong. And I didn’t know if that was normal or... I didn’t really question it. You just know. You grow up, you get married, you have 2.5 kids and the white picket fence, that’s the way—well I don’t know if you guys are, you guys are a different genre of people—but for females that’s pretty much what it was. That’s what it was portrayed on TV and everywhere else that you were. That’s what you did, and that’s what I did. Down in the south, you didn’t hear a lot of gay stuff. It just wasn’t around. 23:30 JF: Do you feel as if the society’s viewpoints suppressed your self-expressing ways? 23:40 WC: Well, I mean in high school we had a couple of gay boys. I didn’t know any females that were. There were always the rumors, but we had a couple that actually went to prom. I don’t recall anything ever being scrutinized over it, or anybody ever being… I didn’t   8   �really hang out with them just because they weren’t in my clique. But no, I don’t recall anything ugly being said or done or, not like some of the things that happen today. Just not something I went about my day thinking about. 24:33 JF: What has been one challenge that you’ve had to overcome in life, and how did you do so? 24:41 WC: One challenge… I don’t know, there’re so many challenges. And I’m not real sure that I’ve gotten over any of them to be honest. I’d probably say one of the biggest…are you talking gay stuff or just anything? 25:10 JF: Anything. 25:16 WC: I’d probably say my relationship with my mother. Just, I would say in the last several years, we’ve actually had a relationship. She didn’t grow up in the best family. Granddaddy beat the tar out of all of his kids. I don’t mean just whipping them, I mean beating them. So, she’s not always the easiest person to get close to. Very moody. So probably that’s been one of the biggest challenges, and I still have challenges with that relationship today. 25:58 JF: Okay. And what would be one of the biggest challenges identifying as LGBT? 26:09 WC: I would probably say the biggest challenge is the fear of community acceptance, especially in employment. In a town, even though Roanoke seems to be kind of large, its not. ‘Cause everyone knows everybody, ‘cause a lot of us have grown up here and you know, you don’t want to walk down the street and kiss your girlfriend, or your boyfriend if you’re male, and then go on a job interview and be remembered, and then that person saying, “No, I’m not going to hire that person because they’re gay.” Even though there are laws out there that state [that employment discrimination is illegal]... it still happens. It’s a small town. And it’s an ass backwards town. 27:00 JF: From what you remember, what was Roanoke like in regards to different sexualities and preferences? What were their attitudes, supportiveness, means of that? 27:12 WC: As far as the community is concerned, I couldn’t say. Honestly, I guess the only experience that I cay say is, I’ve never had to endure any struggles in that, personally. To this date, anybody that I’ve ever worked with, hasn’t had a problem with it. But I know eventually, in the south, you will run into somebody that has that problem. That’s the   9   �fear. I would probably gander to say that the majority of people probably my age group, which is probably around the fifty-year age mark, that grew up in the ‘80s and the ‘90s, even the late ‘70s, probably are pretty liberal about it, unless they just grew up in that really hardcore conservative family. I think that they’re pretty much well, “Whatever, do whatever you want as long as you don’t do anything illegal, I don’t care.” So you know, I never really run into too much of it. Now, when you go to a bar and a gentleman might find out that you’re gay, and the whole well, “Try me out and then you won’t be gay anymore.” That kind of stuff happens all the time. It is what it is. You just emasculate the hell out of them. Move on with your thing. 29:00 JF: Can you tell us more about a time when that has happened? 29:04 WC: Oh there’s been plenty of times that that’s happened. Oh yeah. I just play along with it like, “Oh yeah, sure. How big is it?” or “how small?” You do all those funny things just to emasculate them. And then you go well, “Thank you very much for your time but no thank you I’m happy where I’m at.” Or you just get up. It just depends on the mood. But there’s been so many times that over the course of almost twenty years now that I don’t complain to them after a while. It’s just the same old thing. And those are in straight bars, not gay bars. 29:46 JF: So what has been the greatest changes that you’ve seen or experienced within this area? 29:56 WC: Repeat the question. 30:00 JF: What have been the greatest changes that you’ve seen or experienced within the Roanoke area? 30:09 WC: As far as the gay thing or just any? 30:10 JF: Both. 30:13 WC: Geez these are hard questions. I would probably say as far as the gay thing, Roanoke has a very high populous, a very high gay populous and yeah I think for the most part they’re fairly welcome. I don’t know of any… We did run into somebody recently—and I totally forgot about this—[a] transgender [woman], she, I guess you could say, was jumped two nights before and you could tell that he had a cut on his nose or she had a cut on her nose. It’s sad that that happens, now whether that’s isolated, I   10   �don’t know because I’m not out so I don’t know, but I would probably say that for the most part that Roanoke is fairly accepting. I don’t think that we as a gay community have to stay in one little corner. I see gay people out at straight bars and I see straight people at gay bars. I don’t really think that we have to sit in a pocket somewhere, which is nice. We’re not San Francisco, but we’re getting there. 31:58 JF: Now how was the LGBT community in Roanoke different when you said that you lived in Pittsburgh? 32:06 WC: Well that was in back in the ‘80s. I couldn’t tell you about any gay stuff up there. First of all I wasn’t legal, so I wasn’t able to go out to bars. I was only 18. So as far as that, I can’t really answer that question. 32:28 JF: Okay, what is something or somethings that you wish that you could tell your younger self going through the transition of openly LGBT? 32:42 WC: Just do it. Don’t worry. Get rid of the fear. Deal with the fear. 32:53 JF: What are some of these fears that you’ve experienced? 32:56 WC: Well again the fear of, you know if I go to apply for a job, is that going to affect my chances of being hired. Am I going to get jumped? There’s still fears no matter what that you may... When we were in Dr. [Gregory] Rosenthal’s class last semester and we went to downtown Roanoke and he was doing the gay walk.1 He wasn’t walking gay, but he was pointing out all the gay places in Roanoke and there were rednecks that drove by in a truck and in the back of my mind, are they going to get out of the truck? It wouldn’t surprise me if they did, but that fear still lingers and it always will until this world becomes 100% accepting of everybody and anybody, it’s always going to be there. I would probably say do what you need to do. Live your life, just live your life. 34:16 JF: Do you feel Roanoke to be a safe place for LGBT students and adults? 34:24 JF: Relatively safe, I mean other than you can always be mugged. Even the transgender [person], he was young, I call him a kid. He was jumped, but I don’t know if that’s really what that was. Was it because that he or she was transgender or was it because they were                                                                                                                 1  This  was  an  October  2015  test-­‐run  of  the  Downtown  Roanoke  LGBTQ  History  Walking  Tour,  a   project  of  the  Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project  that  is  scheduled  to  launch  to  the  public  in   September  2016.       11   �in the wrong place at the wrong time? What’s the best thing to do but to jump? My kid got jumped not too long ago, about a month ago. I don’t know. I don’t think they’re any less safe than anybody else. I have no problem with this, don’t get me wrong on this, but when you look the part, that can open up issues. It can, it’s sad that it does, but it does. If a female walks out and she looks like a man, you get some redneck in a truck that doesn’t like that, then you know what can happen. The same thing if you have a very feminine gay man or a transgender [woman] that dresses up in dresses. It’s unfortunate, but it can lead to some altercations, but it’s the world we live in. 36:04 JF: Have you personally witnessed any of these kinds of altercations? 36:09 WC: No, I haven’t personally. My nephew came out as transgender about a year ago. He’s 17 years old and already in transition to take the hormones and things and it’s kind of like what I had to say to my sister. They live in Seattle and I said “Keep him out in Seattle, don’t bring him here because I can guarantee you that he will get hassled in some form.” Not beat up or anything, but they will hassle him because I don’t think that transgenders are as accepted here as if you’re a lesbian or just a gay man. It’s probably more of the rhetoric that’s going on in our political scene right now that is causing war. I’ve been around transgenders, they don’t bother me any. Like I said live your life, do what you want to do. As long as you’re not doing anything illegal or hurting anybody then I don’t care. Yes, to answer your question, I think Roanoke is relatively safe, but yet you’re going to have pockets of issues. It just is what it is. 37:29 JF: So have you ever experienced any negative reactions when you have identified as a lesbian openly? 37:38 WC: No, other than in a bar. Some guy thinking that he can switch you because you’re not what he apparently wants you to be. Other than that, no. I mean that’s negative enough, but not blatant harassment. 38:01 JF: So, what is some of the best news that you’ve gotten and what made it so important? 38:28 WC: I don’t know, that both my children had both ten toes and ten fingers and were healthy. I guess that’s probably the best thing to know. I don’t know, being accepted here in Roanoke was pretty awesome. No, I would say my kids were probably the best news. 38:59 JF: So how has the LGBT community in Roanoke changed since you came out or how has it stayed the same?   12   �39:08 WC: In Roanoke itself, Roanoke city or Roanoke County? This may just be getting older, the fact that, you know what, I don’t care anymore what people think. If Terri and I are in the car and she’s a very kissy person, so she’ll lean over and I don’t care if anybody sees that, I just don’t care. Now I’m respectful, I’m not going to walk into a room full of old ladies and have it out or get down or anything like that. I do want to show respect, but at the same time, in my own space, I’m going to do what I want to do, as well as everybody should, but in a tasteful, respectful way… Still a little traditional there. 40:26 JF: You mention your nephew being transgender. is there a relationship between the two of you? 40:31 WC: Not really, gosh I haven’t been out to Seattle in a long time. In 2005 I think, so it’s been awhile. I haven’t seen him, I mean I get pictures of him and everything, but I haven’t seen him in a while. Great kid. Beautiful kid. He has changed his name to a female name. When my sister called me and told me, it was kind of like “oh wow.” I think it’s easier if it’s not your family. I didn’t have a problem with it whatsoever, but what I fear for her is what she’s going to face. That’s the fear for her, but if she’s happy, I’m happy. They’re all in therapy to work through the processes. Also another thing, the only other reservation I had about it if it were my child is, she was so young. Seventeen is very young to make a life-altering decision. I would have rather her wait several years, especially with the hormones. Once you start the hormones you can’t go back. But other than that, even my kids, you know it’s my cousin. Knowing what the transgender… I don’t think the gay and lesbian scene has anything on the transgenders in what they have to go through. I guess our passes already happen, we’ve already, I haven’t, but so many people, the Harvey Milks and all that, paved the way for us. I don’t even think a whole lot of our friends even had to go through a lot of it. Some did. One of our friends got shot, down at Backstreet Cafe. Yeah, Backstreet. Down on Salem Avenue when the gentleman went in there and shot everything up.2 The transgender, I don’t… I feel bad for that community. I really do, because of what they have to go through 43:13 JF: Do you feel as if Roanoke is not very supportive towards the transgender community? 43:27 WC: That I haven’t had a whole lot of experience in, but I would probably have to say that it’s going to take them awhile, a long while. I’m not so sure that they would be physically aggressive towards a transgender [person], but I’m not sure that they’ll be overly mentally accepting, which can stand in the way physically of a transgender [person]. Using bathrooms and things of that nature. I don’t care. I use men’s bathrooms all the time because you can’t get into the women’s. It doesn’t really matter to me. Yeah, it’s going to be awhile. Although I did like to see Charlotte passing the bathroom—I                                                                                                                 2  She  refers  to  the  Backstreet  Café  shooting  of  September  22,  2000.  One  person  was  killed,  and  six   were  wounded.     13   �don’t know if it was an ordinance or a bill or whatever—but the city of Charlotte, they just passed that transgenders can pick whatever bathroom that they identify with, gender wise, so I thought that was good.3 Now, there’s going to be a fight on it, just because it’s the Bible belt. If Charlotte can do it, the rest of us can get there. The rest of us can get there. 44:41 JF: Do you have a particular message to share with today’s youth or future generations of LGBT…? 44:58 WC: I guess I could say that you’re going to have to constantly fight. You just are, it’s going to be what it is. That can be whether you’re female, not gay or anything. We females fight for equality. It’s just going to be a constant fight for equality. The sad fact of it is, if you look the part, it’s going to be an even bigger fight. That’s going to be the sad part, however don’t give the fight up. Don’t change who you are. Keep the fight up, because there are allies out there that are right with you irregardless. So just know that. 45:51 JF: What has provided you the greatest satisfaction in life? 46:12 WC: It’s a double edged sword, but I would probably say my kids 46:17 JF: Can you tell me more? 46:21 WC: I never wanted kids. I really didn’t, it just happened and I think once you do have kids, it’s a hard process. It’s hard. It’s a struggle. Every day is almost a struggle, but you look at them and they’re gorgeous. You constantly have this hope for them, even when they screw up. My kids have screwed up. They’re those type of kids that have to learn the hard way. They have their problems, but with kids there’s always a hope. You know, and they’re going to make the world better. So you guys have a lot of work ahead of you, a lot of work ahead of you, because we keep screwing it up… but yeah, I would probably say my kids. They’re my greatest heartache and joy. That’s the best way to put it there, heartache and joy at the same time. 47:28                                                                                                                 3  On  February  22,  2016—four  days  before  this  interview  was  conducted—the  Charlotte  City  Council   approved  legislation  prohibiting  discrimination  in  public  facilities  (including  bathrooms)  based  on   sexual  orientation  or  gender  identity.  This  legislation  gave  transgender  persons  the  right  to  use   whichever  bathroom  conforms  to  their  gender  identity.  On  March  23,  2016,  the  North  Carolina  state   legislature  passed  the  Public  Facilities  Privacy  &  Security  Act,  or  HB2,  which  overturned  Charlotte’s   law  and  prohibits  any  other  municipality  from  passing  similar  legislation.       14   �JF: Do you feel more comfortable that you are now able to self-express and self-identify as lesbian. Do you feel like there has been a burden removed or…? 47:45 WC: No I never felt that way, and I think it’s because I didn’t have these struggles to come out. I think it would have just happened anyway, but I didn’t have my family discard me or turn their backs on me. I didn’t have friends turn their backs on me. Everybody just accepted it. Everybody still loved me for who I was, and I had good friends. I didn’t have that hardship, so I can’t speak to that hardship. So there is no real burden, I don’t think. The only thing I could maybe place as a burden is that I don’t live a straight life anymore. Do I think about it sometimes, could I ever go back? Probably not. If I absolutely had to for some reason could I ever go back? No, I couldn’t because it’s just not… I still find men attractive. I just don’t want to be with one. To me, I could if I had to, I mean if I was absolutely forced to then I could do it, and this is the weird thing about it is… if anybody looked at me they would probably say “Yes, it was a choice.” In some degree it was a choice. Do I believe that people are born being gay? Yeah, I just happen to be able to do both and did both, but I’m comfortable with where I’m at right now, and this is where I’m going to be. I don’t know what my future holds. Maybe a man would walk right in my life tomorrow and sweep me off my feet. I don’t know, I don’t know, but for right now this is who I am, and this is who I am going to be. 49:43 JF: How is your life changed because you’ve experienced both the heterosexual and homosexual lifestyle? How are they different other than the clear…? 49:54 WC: Men are simple. Women are complex. [laughter] Again, men are simple and women are complex. Women are difficult, very difficult to live with. Men, you know, just give them a remote and a sports program and they’re good to go. Women analyze everything. We do, we just analyze everything and then that time of the month. My god, it’s like putting you know… a scorpion and a tarantula in the same room and who’s going to win. You know, or even two scorpions in the same room. Which one is going to come out alive? That’s what two women are like, unless they just have that kind of really laid back personality. Terri and I don’t have laid back personalities. [laughter] But at the same time, the great thing about it is that we know what we’re going through. We know that we’re going to be upset. We know why for the most part we’re going to be upset. We know what our bodies are doing. Men are like “What are you doing? Why are you bitchy today?” Well you know what, if you knew what I was going through! It comes with its ups and downs, but I think I like being with a woman because a woman I can identify. I don’t identify with men. Does that answer that question? 51:52 JF: Do you feel as if living with a female, which that’s what you’re in the transition of doing again, how does that make you feel? Are you ready to experience that or are you nervous?   15   �52:06 WC: Oh, we still have a home together. Her job is just in Raleigh, so she comes home on her days off, but for the last three years we’ve been doing that. There have been a couple of weeks where she hasn’t been able to come home and we’re not together, and it’s always a transition when she comes back. We’ve talked about that, to actually 100% be again in the same household. It’s going to be a huge transition. There’s going to be some fireworks I’m sure. There always are. Always fireworks. She’s a wonderful person, but again we’re very high spirited people and we’re leaders. Putting two leaders in the same household sometimes makes for good fireworks, let’s put it that way. 53:14 JF: Do you feel as you would be able living in Charlotte, leaving the Roanoke community—[living in] Raleigh, I’m sorry—able to openly express your sexuality? 53:32 WC: You know, I have a friend. We were talking about this recently. She was in the Navy and she did live in Raleigh for a while. This was back in the late ‘90s and she says, “You know, now don’t forget that when you go to Raleigh that you’re in the heat of the Bible belt.” I was like “oh, so are we here in Roanoke, so what’s your point?” I think it’s changed. Raleigh is kind of like Atlanta. You know, I lived in Atlanta. My oldest son was born in Atlanta. It’s so transient, a lot of imported people, if that makes any sense. Just the industry, it brings people from the north, from the west. You have this melting pot of a city and I don’t honestly think that it’s going to be that rough. Honestly, in the city. Now, when you get out to the small suburbs… maybe, maybe probably more conservative, but in the heat of Raleigh, I don’t really fear that I’m going to have to deal with too much of that. I hope. 54:42 JF: Have you left anything unsaid today? Is there anything else you’d like to share? 54:55 WC: I don’t think so. I don’t have an explicit story. I wish I did. It’s kind of like the scary stories about having babies. All these nightmares about birthing babies, I don’t have one of those either. Mine were quick and easy. No medication, no nothing. Au natural, so I don’t have the horror stories. So it’s kind of like that, I don’t have a horror story. Which I feel very fortunate of. 55:20 JF: Great, so overall, would you say overall that your transition of coming out and identifying as lesbian has been a positive for you? 55:29 WC: Yeah, for me. I can’t say or speak to too many negatives about it. It’s all good. 55:44 JF: Well thank you for your time.   16   �55:46 JF: Thank you very much.   17   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Whitney B. Conley Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Whitney B. Conley Interviewer: Julie Frymier Interviewee: Whitney B. Conley Date: 26 February 2016 Location: Roanoke College, Miller Hall, Room 219, 221 College Lane, Salem, VA Total Duration: 55:46 Transcription prepared by: Christina Taylor and Victoria Sage Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Whitney B. Conley; Julie Frymier; Christina Taylor; Victoria Sage Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ConleyWhitney https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2612/DaddySam.1.MP3 aa86ea7cc871b426a85baefd68c2f2dd https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2612/DaddySam.pdf cc96e3c54232e4601dd617b5b7a0cf69 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Daddy  Sam   February  24,  2016       Interviewer:  Marlee  Wertz   Interviewee:  Daddy  Sam   Date:  February  24,  2016   Location:  The  narrator’s  private  residence,  Roanoke,  Virginia   Duration:  60:07  total     Transcribed  by:  Micheala  McDonald,  Rachel  Barton,  and  Brittany  Peterson     0:00  =  childhood  in  Winston-­‐Salem,  North  Carolina   2:17  =  serving  in  the  U.S.  Air  Force  after  high  school   2:51  =  on  moving  to  Roanoke  in  1981   3:26  =  Cross-­‐dressing  prostitutes  on  Salem  Avenue  in  the  1980s  /  The  Centurions,  a   leather  community  in  Roanoke  in  the  1980s  /  Shout,  a  gay  newspaper  in  Roanoke  in   the  1980s   6:32  =  description  of  The  Centurions,  and  changes  in  the  leather  community  from   the  1980s  to  today   13:41  =  on  the  history  and  practices  of  leather  clubs,  and  on  becoming  “Daddy  Sam”   20:28  =  Backstreet  Café  shooting  (2000);  and  meeting  his  husband  online  in  a   chatroom  (mid-­‐2000s)  and  getting  married  in  2015   31:16  =  describing  his  wedding  in  2015   32:28  =  the  gay  bar  scene  in  Roanoke   33:42  =  more  reflections  on  the  Backstreet  Café  shooting  (2000)   42:31  =  relationship  with  his  husband’s  parents   46:07  =  reflections  on  discrimination  against  gay  people  and  the  importance  of   marriage  equality   50:55  =  coming  out  to  his  mom  and  siblings  (late  1970s?)   59:09  =  final  reflections  on  his  journey  since  moving  to  Roanoke  in  1981                             1   �   0:00   [checking  sound  levels  ~  10  sec.]     0:10   MW:  Okay,  so  we  are  at  Sam  Winkler’s  house.  My  name  is  Marlee  Wertz.  It  is   Wednesday,  February  24th  2016  and  the  time  is  3:00  pm.  And  Sam  would  you  state   your  name  please?     0:26   SW:  Sam  Winkler.     0:27   MW:  Alright,  thank  you.  So,  Sam,  where  are  you  originally  from?     0:32   SW:  I’m  originally  from  Winston-­‐Salem,  North  Carolina.       0:35   MW:  And  what  brought  you  to  Roanoke?     0:38   SW:  My  job.     0:39   MW:  Your  job,  okay.  How  was  life  growing  up  in  Winston-­‐Salem?     0:44   SW:  Well  actually  I  was  born  in  Winston,  but  I  moved  around  a  lot.  So  I  lived  in   Winston,  I  lived  in  the  mountainous  area  of  North  Carolina,  so  I  was  here,  there,  and   everywhere.  I  really  didn’t  settle  down  completely  until  I  moved  to  Roanoke.  I   moved  to  Roanoke  in  1981.       1:01   MW:  Okay,  so  what  would  you  describe  your  childhood  like  with  moving  around   and…?       1:07   SW:  Haphazard  at  best,  because  I  came  from  a  broken  family.  My  mom  and  dad   divorced  when  I  was  three  and  so  I  just  moved  from,  kind  of,  toward  the  post.  So  I   lived  with  my  sister  for  a  while,  I  lived  with  my  brother  for  a  while,  I  lived  with  my   other  sister  for  a  while.  I  moved  out  on  my  own  when  I  was  a  senior  in  high  school.   Worked  on  second  shift,  maintained  an  A/B  average  and  got  a  scholarship  and  went   to  college.       1:43     2   �MW:  That’s  remarkable.  Wow,  that’s  really  great.  So  you,  I  would  say,  would  you  say   that  your  childhood  made  you  work  really  hard  to…?     1:55   SW:  I  think  so.  I  think  coming  up  that  way  you  kind  of  go  that  extra  mile  to  try  to  go   above  and  beyond  what  is  expected  of  you.       2:07   MW:  Absolutely.  So  when  you  weren’t  in  school  and  when  you  weren’t  working   second  shift  what  were  you  doing?  What  were  your  interests  when  you  were  in  high   school?     2:17   SW:  Basically  in  high  school  I  didn’t  really  have  a  lot  of  time  for  a  lot  of  outside   interests  because,  like  I  said,  I  was  working  [and]  trying  to  support  myself.  I  went   into  the  Air  Force  after  high  school.  I  was  an  MP  at  the  Air  Force  for  a  while.     2:37   MW:  And  what’s  an  MP?     2:38   SW:  Hmm?     2:38   MW:  What’s  an  MP?     2:39   SW:  Oh,  I’m  sorry.  It’s  military  police.       2:40   MW:  Oh,  gotcha.  So  where  were  you  stationed  or  where  were  you  living  when  you   went  into  the  air  force?     2:49   SW:  I  was  living  in  Winston-­‐Salem.     2:51   MW:  You  were  living  in  Winston-­‐Salem.  Okay,  so  you  said  your  career  brought  you   to  Roanoke,  or  your  job  brought  you  to  Roanoke.  So  what  job  was  that?     3:01   SW:  I  started  out  as  a  color  designer  for  furniture  and  then  from  that  I  went  into   health  safety  and  environmental  work  and  I  did  that  for  probably  25  years.     3:12   MW:  Wow,  so  are  you  now  retired?     3   �   3:14   SW:  I  just  retired  a  year  ago.       3:16   MW:  Congratulations,  that’s  wonderful.  So  when  you  came  to  Roanoke  in  the  1980s   what  would  you  describe  it  like?     3:26   SW:  I  moved  here  in  1981  and  Roanoke  was  a  very  interesting  city  at  that  time.  For   one  thing,  I  had  not  ever  lived  anywhere  where  you  had  female  impersonators  on   the  street  corners  soliciting  business  and  this  went  on  in  Roanoke  at  that  time.  As  a   matter  of  fact  down  around  where  Billy’s  Ritz  is  used  to  be  called  “the  block.”  And  as   they  started  to  clean  up  that  area  they  pushed  them  farther  and  farther  out.  But  it   was,  I  can  remember  being  at  work  and  one  of  the  girls  at  the  office  said  “Be  careful   if  you  go  downtown  to  pick  up  a  female”  and  I’m  like  “why?”  and  they  said  “Because   it  might  not  be  a  female.”  [laughing]  And  I’m  like  “okay,  I  understand!”       But,  I  got  involved  actually  in  the  Leather  community  almost  as  soon  as  I  came  into   Roanoke.  There  was  a  leather  club  called  the  Centurions  which  I  was  a  member  of   and  I  was  a  member  of  that  for  quite  some  time.  I  was  president  for  a  while,  I  was   Road  Captain  for  a  while,  and  I  learned  a  lot  about  the  leather  lifestyle.  It’s   interesting  because  a  lot  of  people  automatically  assume  that  the  leather  lifestyle   was  S&M  and  that  couldn’t  be  farther  from  the  truth.  I  mean,  just  like  any  other   aspect  of  life  there’s  a  group  of  people,  but  for  the  most  part  that  was  not  at  all  what   the  leather  community  was  about.  And  I  guess  probably  the  best  way  that  I  can   describe  it…  [SW  goes  to  get  a  newspaper]  This  is,  I  used  to  write  for  this  paper.  This   was  called  Shout  which  was  a  gay  newspaper  in  Roanoke.  And  basically  a  statement   that  I  made  many,  many  years  ago  is  [SW  reading  from  the  newspaper]  “Leather  is  a   state  of  mind.  It’s  a  feel,  a  smell,  a  taste,  and  a  fashion  statement  of  the  person   wearing  it.  Leather  is  new,  it’s  different,  it’s  erotic,  and  it’s  adventurous.  Leather  has   no  age,  race,  gender,  sexual  orientation,  or  physical  and  appearance  boundaries.   People  in  every  lifestyle  and  profession,  gay  and  straight,  store  clerks  to  lawyers  are   interested  and  involved  in  the  leather  lifestyle.”  And  just  to  show  you  how  much  I’ve   changed  over  the  years,  that  was  me  when  I  used  to  write  for  them  [SW  referring  to   a  picture  of  himself  in  the  newspaper].     6:07   MW:  Wow.     6:07   SW:  [laughing]     6:08   MW:  I  like  it.  So  you  were  the  president,  is  that  what  that  says?       4   �6:11   SW:  Yes.     6:11   MW:  Wow.  That’s  really,  that’s  interesting.  And  so  how  old  were  you  when  that  was   happening?     6:17   SW:  I  was  28/29.     6:21   MW:  28/29?     6:22   SW:  And  I  was  part  of  the  leather  community  up  until  about  nine  years  ago,  ten   years  ago.     6:29   MW:  Wow.       6:30   SW:  Yeah.       6:32   MW:  What  kind  of  things  does  the  leather  club  do?     6:35   SW:  Okay,  basically  it’s  a  group  of  people  who  like  to  get  together  and  party   together.  We  have  what  we  called  “runs”  and  you  could  have  an  outside  run  which   was  more  like  a  camping  trip,  if  you  can  imagine  a  hundred  guys  at  a  camping  trip.   Or,  sometimes  they  were  held  in  hotels.  We’ve  had  them  before  at  Patrick  Henry,   we’ve  had  them  at  the  Sheraton,  and  the  different  clubs  have  cocktail  parties  so  it’s   basically  one  big  party  from  Friday  afternoon  until  about  noon  on  Sunday.  So  a  lot  of   fun,  a  lot  of  getting  to  meet  new  people  and  things.  I  will  tell  you  that  probably  the   leather  community  over  the  years  changed.  When  I  first  became  involved  in  the   leather  community  there  was  a  lot  of  respect  for  the  elder  people  that  were  in  the   leather  community.  They  were  kind  of  like  you  were  to  respect  your  grandfather  or   your  father.  They  taught  you  the  true  ways  of  the  leather  community.  For  example,  if   you  had  a  master’s  cap  which  is  what  that  is  called  [SW  points  to  his  master’s  cap],   you  didn’t  just  go  out  and  buy  that,  you  earned  it.  When  someone  felt  it  was  time   that  you  had  proven  yourself  in  the  community,  that  was  presented  to  you.  Today   it’s  more  of  a  “Hey,  let’s  go  out  and  get  us  a  cap.”  Also,  people  back  then  were  very   particular  about  their  master’s  cap.  If  you  came  up  and  said  “Hey,  I  want  to  wear   your  master’s  cap”  it  would  have  been  an  automatic  “No,  you’re  not.”  You  didn’t  earn   it,  you’re  not  wearing  it.    As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  probably  would  not  have  even  let  most     5   �people  try  mine  on.  Just  because  of  the  respect  that  I  had  and  the  work  that  goes  into   earning  it.       8:44   MW:  Absolutely.     8:45   SW:  But  it  is  changed.  And  a  lot  of  the  leather  clubs  now  are  dwindling  away  and  a   lot  of  the  reason  for  that  is  because  of  the  internet.  People  don’t  really  need  leather   clubs  to  meet  people  of  like  persuasion  because  they’re  online  and  you  can  find   anybody  you  want  online  just  real  quick.  So  because  of  that  a  lot  of  your  younger   people  are  no  longer  interested  in  the  leather  clubs  and  it  was  really  a  shame  to  see   them  kind  of  dwindle  because  they  were  a  lot  of  fun.  They  were  a  lot  of  fun.  Did  a  lot   of  traveling.  I’ll  just  give  you  an  example.  [SW  goes  to  get  leather  vest]  That’s  my   leather  vest  and  each  one  of  these  represents  either  a  club,  another  leather  club,  or  a   leather  run  that  I  went  to.  I  was  also  one  time  the  president  of  the  Southeast   conference  of  clubs  which  was  32  leather  clubs.       10:01   MW:  Wow.     10:02   SW:  That’s  just  one  vest  and  then  there’s  another  one  [laughing].  But  some  leather   guys  road  bikes.  That’s  what  I  used  to  ride.  [SW  shows  pictures  of  him  from  the  past]   Just  to  give  you  an  idea,  that  was  dress  uniform.  And,  like  I  said,  you  had  cocktail   parties.  And  you  did  crazy  things.  We  had  a  leather  run  at  Patrick  Henry  and  for  our   cocktail  party,  our  opening  cocktail  party,  we  did  a  take  off  on  Gone  with  the  Wind   where  everybody  that  was  in  the  club,  for  the  most  part,  dressed  as  somebody  from   Gone  with  the  Wind.  Just  to  give  you  an  example  [SW  shows  more  pictures]  that  was   me  as  Belle  Watling,  madam  of  the  whore  house  [SW  and  MW  laughing].  So,  like  I   said,  it  was  just  a  lot  of  fun.  Just  some  more  examples  of  the  banquet  that  we  always   had  [SW  shows  more  pictures].  You  would  have  anywhere  from  10  to  15  cocktail   parties.  They’d  start  on  Friday  afternoon  and  they’d  go  until  1  or  2  o’  clock  in  the   morning.  Then  they’d  start  at  breakfast  the  next  morning  with  eye  openers.  A  lot  of   fun.       11:56   MW:  Yeah.       11:57   SW:  I  think  probably  one  of  the  most  fun  times  I’ve  ever  had,  I  went  to  a  run  in   Washington  D.C.  and  we  had  it  at  the…  I  can’t  remember  the  name  of  the  hotel,  but  it   was  right  downtown  Washington  and  they  decided  their  cocktail  party  that  they   were  going  to  do  Ethel  Merman  Bathing  Beauties  so  if  you  can  imagine  a  bunch  of   guys  in  one-­‐piece  bathing  suits.  It’s  kind  of  almost  like  college  fraternity  type  stuff,   same  thing  is  true  with  the  leather  clubs.       6   �   12:31   MW:  How  did  you  find  out  about  the  leather  club?     12:34   SW:  I  was  involved  with  someone  before  I  moved  to  Roanoke  that  was  into  the   leather  clubs.  And  they  basically  brought  me  into  the  leather  clubs.  Then  when  I   moved  to  Roanoke  I  found  out  there  was  a  club  here  and  so  I  joined  the  club  here.   That  club  eventually  disbanded  and  then  there  was  another  club  called  the  Rogues   which  is  where  the  patch  on  my  vest  is  from.  And  you  could  be  associate  members  of   clubs  from  other  states,  like  Code  12  was  a  club  in  Jacksonville,  Florida  that  I  was  an   associate  member  of.  So  I  traveled  quite  a  bit.  I’d  ride  my  bike.  It  wasn’t  anything   unusual  for  me  to  ride  to  New  York  on  my  motorcycle  and  Ohio  and  just  wherever.   And  pack  everything  you’d  want  for  a  whole  weekend  on  the  back  of  my  motorcycle   and  take  off  for  the  weekend.  So  it  was  a  lot  of  fun.       13:41   MW:  And  you  said  that  that  hat  that  you  had  to  earn…  What  types  of  things  did  you   [have  to]  do  like  you  said…     13:47   SW:  Well,  for  one  thing  you  had  to  learn  about  the  history  of  the  leather  clubs  and   there  is  a  very  deep  history  of  the  leather  clubs.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  there’s  a  leather   archives  in  Chicago  that  has  a  lot  of  the  first  clubs’  information  and  things  like  that.1   And  I  think  for  me  the  big  thing  was  learning  that  you  do  not  automatically  assume   that  just  because  somebody  is,  quote,  in  the  leather  club  that  they’re  into,  that  I  want   to  tie  you  up  and  beat  you  and  all  of  this  because  it  couldn’t  be  more  from  the  truth.   Granted,  like  I  said,  there’s  people  out  there  like  that.  But  there’s  people  out  there   like  that  in  every  aspect  of  life  that  that’s  their  thing.  I  tend  to  try  to  stay  away  from   that  kind  of  people  because  that’s  not  me  at  all.  I’m  more  into  sharing  and  having  a   good  time  and  just  enjoying  as  opposed  to  the...  And  I  did  a  lot  of  demonstrations.   Now,  I  say  that  I  wasn’t  into  pain,  and  I  really  wasn’t,  but  I  have  a  paddle  that…  it   used  to  be  if  I  went  to  the  bar  somewhere  everybody  wanted  to  take  one  hit  from   Daddy  Sam  with  the  paddle.  [SW  goes  to  get  paddle]  That  is  my  paddle.  And  all  of   those  are  names  of  people  that  had  at  one  time  or  another  taken  at  least  one  whack   from  the  paddle.  Once  again,  a  whole  lot  like  a  fraternity  in  college  where  you  have   somebody  that’s  your  frat  master  or  whatever,  and  they’re  going  to  be  in  charge  of   the  paddle.  I  really  don’t  know  when  I  started  being  called  Daddy  Sam,  but  that  kind   of  came  up  and  as  you  can  see  the  paddle  was  engraved  “Daddy  Sam.”  I  used  to  do   some  demonstrations  with  fire.  I  knew  that  would  get  you!  Fire  play  is  one  of  the   oldest  tricks  in  the  world.  It’s  an  old  circus  trick.  And  I  was  taught  to  do  it  and   people  used  to  love  having  me  set  them  on  fire.  It  does  something  for  me  and  it  does   something  for  them,  too.  Number  one,  for  you  to  trust  me  enough  to  set  you  on  fire                                                                                                                   1  Leather  Archives  &  Museum,  6418  N  Greenview  Ave,  Chicago,  IL  60626,   http://www.leatherarchives.org.       7   �and  not  let  you  burn.  It  kind  of  strokes  my  ego  a  little  bit  because  that  says  you   really  trust  me.  But  on  the  other  hand  that  person,  too,  has  to  put  complete  trust  in   you.  Because  basically  what  you  would  do  is…  and  it  was  really  awesome  in  a  bar   because  you  would  clear  the  pool  table,  usually  is  where  I  did  it  a  lot  of  times.  We   would  put  something  over  top  of  the  pool  table  and  the  person  would  take  their   shirt  off  and  I  would  light  their  back  on  fire  and  then  I’d  take  my  hand  and  cup  it  like   that  and  put  it  out.       17:20   MW:  That’s  amazing.     17:21   SW:  Haven’t  done  it  in  a  lot  of  years.  Don’t  know  that  I  would  even  attempt  to  do  it   again  because  it  has  been  that  long.  But  the  secret  to  it,  and  the  way  I  was  taught,   there  was  a  lady  that  taught  me  how  to  do  it.  I  was  at  a  leather  run  and  I  saw  her   setting  somebody  on  fire  and  I  thought  that  is  so  cool,  yet  that  whole  person’s  back   is  just  flaming  and  they  weren’t  burned  at  all.  And  I  was  like  “I  want  to  try  that!”  So   she  laid  me  down  and  she  sprayed  my  back  and  set  me  on  fire.  It  got  a  little  warm   and  I  started  to  raise  up  and  she  pushed  me  back  down  and  she  said  “Don’t  worry”   because  she  started  talking  to  somebody.  She  said,  “Whether  I  put  it  out  or  not  it’s   gonna  go  out  before  it  burns  you.”  And  the  reason  for  that  is  it’s  done  with  a  very   low  percent  grade  of  alcohol  so  it  flashes  real  quick.  But  for  people  in  the  room  that   had  never  seen  it,  they  don’t  know  that.  They  just  know  that  I’ve  set  somebody  on   fire.  And  I  put  it  in  my  hand  and  lit  my  hand  and  did  this  number  and  waved  it   around  the  room  and  everything,  but  it  doesn’t  burn.  Now  you  have  to  be  careful   and  this  is  one  thing  that  I  believed  in  that  anytime  I  did  a  demonstration  is  I  would   always  tell  people  “Do  not  go  home  and  try  this  because  if  you  don’t  know  what   you’re  doing  you’re  going  to  hurt  somebody.”  If  you  just  go  to  the  grocery  store  and   buy  any  grade  of  alcohol  and  think  “Oh  Sam  did  this  I  can  do  this,”  [and]  spray   somebody’s  back  and  light  a  match  to  it,  you’re  going  to  hurt  them.  So  I  would   always  say  “Don’t  do  it.”  Number  one,  don’t  even  attempt  to  do  it  unless  you’ve  had   it  done  to  you.  Because  you  have  to  be  able  to  know  the  sensation  that  the  person  is   going  to  feel  before  you  can  respect  their  limits.  It  was  kind  of  like,  it  wasn’t  even   like  you  would  get  really  warm  because  I  think  it  was  like  a  2  or  3  percent  alcohol,   so  very  low  grade  alcohol.  And  you  told  the  person,  too.  You  made  sure  they  laid   perfectly  flat  and  made  sure  it  didn’t  puddle  on  their  back.  And  what  I’d  use  is  like  a   mist  bottle  like  you’d  mist  plants  with,  mist  the  back  so  there’s  just  little  beads  of   alcohol  and  then  when  you’d  light  it  it’s  going  to  go  up  in  blue  flames  just  like  that.   And  then,  like  I  said,  I’d  immediately  just  take  my  hand  and  cup  it,  hold  it  out  and   put  it  out  like  that.  It  was  kind  of  neat.     20:25   MW:  Kind  of?  It  sounds  incredible!       20:28     8   �SW:  [laughter]  And  that’s  really  when  people  started  calling  me  Daddy  Sam  then.   Probably  another  thing  that  really  came  about  that  started  me  being  called  Daddy   Sam  was  the  murder  that  happened  in  Roanoke.2  I  can’t  remember  the  year,  but  it   was  a  situation  where  somebody  from  out  of  town  walked  into  Corned  Beef  and   Company  and  got  directions  to  The  Park.  They  gave  him  directions  just  like  anyone   would,  and  as  they  walked  out  the  door  the  guy  made  a  comment  “I’m  going  to  go   kill  a  bunch  of  faggots.”  Well,  they  immediately  called  the  police,  and  the  police  went   to  The  Park  thinking  “that’s  where  this  guy’s  going”  because  that’s  where  he  got   directions  to.  But  he  did  not  go  to  The  Park,  he  went  to  the  little  bar  on  Salem   Avenue  called  Backstreet,  walked  in,  sat  down  and  had  a  beer  with  several  people,   stood  up  and  just  fired  point  blank  and  shot  seven  people  and  killed  one.  And  then   right  after  that,  there  was  a  candlelit  vigil,  and  there  was  probably  close  to  six  or   seven  hundred  people  that  met  in  Elmwood  Park,  and  they  had  called  me  and  asked   me,  as  the  leader  of  the  leather  community,  if  I  would  lead  the  parade.  Well,  I  was   kind  of  young  and  foolish,  but  I’m  like  “Sure!  I  will!”  And  I  went  down  that  night   dressed  in  full  leather,  and  I  had  my  leather  pride  flag  and  everything,  and  I’m   thinking  “This  isn’t  smart.  You  are  right  out  in  front  of  this  whole  crowd,  there’s  just   been  a  murder  in  Roanoke,  and  you’d  be  an  easy  shot  for  anybody.”  Nothing   happened  that  night.  The  police  were  fantastic,  they  blocked  it  off  from  Salem   Avenue…  we  came  out  of  Elmwood  Park,  onto  Salem  Avenue,  and  the  march  went   from  there  up  Salem  Avenue,  to  where  Backstreet  Bar  is,  and  that’s  where  the   candlelit  vigil  was  held.  That’s  also  when  I  started  having  a  whole  lot  more  to  do   with  a  lot  of  the  other  aspects  of  the  gay  community,  because  a  couple  of  the  female   impersonators  were  there,  and  at  that  point  everyone  was  a  little  standoffish  from   Daddy  Sam,  because  that  can  be  intimidating.  If  you  see  me  and  I’ve  got  a  whip  on   my  side  and  all  that…  but  once  you  got  to  know  me  it  was  like  “No,  he’s  just  like   anyone  else.  He  just  has  a  good  time,  he’s  not  going  to—without  you  wanting  him   to—and  even  if  somebody  wanted  me  to  tie  them  up  and  beat  them  I  don’t  think   that  I  could  have  ever  done  it.  I’m  just  not  that  kind  of  person.  I  would  hit  them  with   a  paddle,  of  course.  [laughing]  But  that’s  probably  when  I  started  being  called  Daddy   Sam,  and  it  got  to  the  point  where  I  could  even  go  into  the  bar  and  somebody  would   shout  “Daddy  Sam’s  here!”  Especially  at  Backstreet,  cause  it  was  a  small  community   type  bar.  That’s  where  I  did  a  lot  of  demos  [demonstrations]  and  everything.       But  then  I  kind  of  got  out  of  it.  I  met  my  partner,  and  he  really  wasn’t  into  the  leather   world  that  much.  I  think  it’s  just  like  anything  else,  you  go  down  so  many  paths  in   your  life,  and  you  go  down  one  path  for  a  while  and  then  your  life  would  take   another  turn,  and  you  go  down  a  different  path.  And  I  think  that  was  true  with  me.   We  met  and  wanted  to  build  a  life  together,  and  I  felt  that  anytime  you’re  going  to  be   involved  in  a  relationship  you  probably  should  not  be  spending  a  lot  of  time  in  a  bar.   Be  it  a  gay  relationship,  a  straight  relationship,  or  any  other  kind  of  relationship,   bars  tend  to  breed  trouble  because  there’s  always  that  other  person  that’s  going  to   try  to  make  the  person  you’re  with  jealous.  They  might  not  really  want  you   themselves,  but  they’re  going  to  do  something  to  prove  “Well,  I  can  get  them.”  And                                                                                                                   2  The  following  story  refers  to  the  Backstreet  Café  shooting  of  September  22,  2000.       9   �so  we  pretty  much  got  to  the  point  that  we  did  not  go  to  the  bars,  don’t  go  to  the   bars,  haven’t  been  to  the  bar  [since]…  well,  we’ve  been  together  nine  years  and  I   think  we’ve  been  to  the  bar  maybe  three  times  since  we’ve  been  together.  But,   looking  back  at  the  last  nine  years,  I  would  not  give  up  those  nine  years  for  all  the   years  I  spent  going  to  the  bar.  He  is,  without  a  doubt…  if  ever  I  had  a  soulmate…  he  is   my  soulmate.  We  met  online.  There  was  a  thing  called  Bear  411  [bear411.com]  and   it’s  just  kind  of  like  a  chatroom.  We  started  chatting,  and  we  talked  for  a  year  before   we  ever  met  each  other.  We  got  to  the  point  where  we  talked  everyday,  either  on  the   computer  or  by  phone.  He  was  from  West  Virginia  and  he  was  living  in  North   Carolina.  He  was  going  up  to  his  family  reunion,  and  he  said  “I’ll  just  stop  for  the   weekend,”  so  we  could  finally  meet  because  we  hadn’t  in  a  year.  I’m  like  “okay,  that’s   cool.”  So  he  came  up  and  we  had  a  great  weekend.  It  was  like  you  weren’t  meeting  a   stranger,  because  you’d  talked  for  a  year,  so  you  really  knew  a  lot  about  each  other…   what  your  likes  were,  your  dislikes,  and  everything.  It  was  funny  because  I  was   coming  in  from  work  and  he  was  coming  across  the  Walnut  Street  Bridge,  and  he   called  me  and  said  “I  think  I’m  lost.”  I  said  “okay,  what  are  you  driving,”  and  he  said   “a  blue  van.”  I  said  “if  you  see  that  red  truck  that  just  pulled  out  in  front  of  you,  that   would  be  me,  so  just  follow  me  home,”  and  he  did.  He  spent  Friday  night,  Saturday   night,  Sunday  morning  he  got  up  and  got  ready  to  go  to  his  family  reunion,  and  just   on  a  whim  I  said  “if  you  don’t  mind,  I’ll  go  with  you.”  And  he’s  like,  “I  did  tell  you  this   is  a  West  Virginia  family  reunion.”  “Yes,”  I  said,  but  I  went  with  him  to  his  family   reunion  and  so  I  met  his  whole  family  in  one  day,  and  it  was  funny  because  his  mom   and  dad  did  not  know  probably  for  three  or  four  years  that  that  was  the  first   weekend  we’d  ever  seen  each  other.  They  assumed  that  we’d  been  dating.  We  got  to   talking  one  night  and  we’re  like  “No!  That  was  the  first  weekend  we  had  seen  each   other  also.”  And  then  five  years  ago  we  had  a  commitment  service  in  North  Carolina,   and  then  as  soon  as  Virginia  made  it  legal,  I  was  out  of  town  on  business  and  I  called   him  and  I  said  “Let’s  get  married.”  So,  we  got  married  January  the  10th,  2015.  And  we   just  celebrated  our  one-­‐year  official  anniversary,  and  as  far  as  I’m  concerned  we’ll   be  together  forever.       29:09   MW:  Congratulations!       29:11   SW:  Thank  you,  thank  you.       29:14   MW:  That’s  really  exciting,  I  was  actually  going  to  ask  if  you  were  married.  I  was   going  to  ask  if  you  were.  That’s  wonderful!       29:20   SW:  Yes.  And  we  both  share  a  lot  of  the  same  likes.  We  both  like  gardening  as  you   can  probably  tell  by  looking  at  the  yard  out  here  in  the  front  and  everything.  We  go   to  the  lake  quite  a  bit.  We  jokingly  tell  people  the  majority  of  our  friends  are  not   really  gay.  They’re  straight  people,  because  we  don’t  really  think  of  our  lifestyle  as     10   �“quote,  quote…”  I  know  some  people  say  “well,  there’s  a  gay  lifestyle  and  a  straight   lifestyle.”  Our  lifestyle  is  our  lifestyle,  you  know?  We  have  Christmas  parties  and  it’s   a  mix  of  people.  Like  I  said,  I’m  into  gardening,  I’m  a  master  gardener.  I  do   therapeutic  gardening  with  nursing  homes  and  all  that.  He’s  into  Christmas  lights  so   he  does  a  whole  shopping  center  in  North  Carolina  by  himself,  and  just  to  give  you   an  idea  when  I  say  we’re  kind  of  into  Christmas,  we  had  fifteen  Christmas  trees   throughout  the  house.  Like  I  said,  you  go  down  a  different  path.  I  don’t  miss  the   leather  clubs.  I  don’t  regret  being  in  the  leather  clubs,  I  thoroughly  enjoyed  it  and  I   made  a  lot  of  great  friends  there.  But,  I  think  as  you  get  older,  there’s  this  thing  when   you  become  an  adult,  you  put  away  childish  things.  Well,  I  think  I  finally  became  an   adult  and  put  away  my  childish  things  and  settled  down  to  be  a  real  adult  and   contributing  person  to  the  community.       31:08   MW:  So,  do  you  still  keep  in  touch  with  some  friends  that  you  made  in  the  leather   community?     31:16   SW:  Oh  yes,  absolutely.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  some  were  at  our  wedding.  And  it  was   funny  because  when  we  started  sending  out  invitations  for  the  wedding,  I  told  Mark   “Don’t  worry  about  how  many  you  send,  because  only  fifty  percent  is  going  to  show   up.”  Ninety-­‐five  percent  showed  up,  and  we  had  it  here.  We  left  all  the  Christmas   decorations  up,  we  took  all  the  furniture  out  of  the  living  room  and  all  the  furniture   out  of  the  dining  room.  We  rented  chairs,  had  it  set  up  like  a  chapel.  We  ended  up   with  three  ministers  just  because  the  couple  that  had  done  our  commitment  in   North  Carolina  wanted  to  be  a  part  of  it,  but  their  license  was  not  recognized  in   Virginia  because  they’re  from  North  Carolina.  We  had  to  get  a  minister  in  Virginia  to   do  the  officiating  and  actually  pronounce  husband  and  husband,  but  they  could  still   be  a  part  of  it  too,  so  we  ended  up  with  three  ministers.  [laughter]  If  we’re  not   married  now,  we’re  never  going  to  be…     32:28     MW:  Wow!  So  you  mentioned  Backstreet  Café,  was  that  one  of  your  favorite  bars  to   go  to…?     32:37   SW:  Actually,  that  was  just  a  little  small  neighborhood  type  bar  and,  yes,  that’s   probably  the  one  I  went  to  a  lot.  There  used  to  be  another  one  called  The  Last  Straw   that  was  right  at  the  corner  of  Salem  and  Jefferson  when  I  first  moved  to  Roanoke,   and  it  eventually  closed.  I’m  not  real  big  into  the  large  dance  bars.  I  like  small,   community-­‐type  bars  where  you  can  sit  and  carry  on  a  conversation.  And  you  get  to   know  people,  you  don’t  feel  like  you’re  screaming  to  talk  to  each  other  all  the  time.   And  I  always  felt  that  way  when  I  went  to  The  Park,  because  it  was  loud  dance  music   and  BARARARARAR  [laughter]  And  you  really  couldn’t  connect  with  people  I  didn’t   think.  You  go  and  you  dance  and  have  a  good  time,  and  then  you  go  home.  But  in  the   smaller  bars,  there  was  always  that  opportunity  to  just  sit  one-­‐on-­‐one,  kind  of  like     11   �what  we’re  doing  right  now.  Just  sit  and  talk,  you  know,  about  anything  and   everything.     33:42   MW:  So,  again  you  mentioned  that  gentleman  went  into  Corned  Beef  and  the  police   found  out  that  he  was  going  to  do  that  heinous  act,  so  what  was  the  relationship  like   with  the  police  back  in  the  ‘80s?     34:02   SW:  Actually,  very  good.  That  was  evident  to  me  in  the  night  that  we  had  the   candlelight  vigil.  They  blocked  all  the  side  streets,  they  were  very  respectful  to   everyone,  and  everyone  was  very  respectful  to  them.  I  was  amazed.       34:30   MW:  That’s  wonderful.       34:31   SW:  Because  you’re  talking  back…  jeez,  this  had  to  have  been  twenty  years  ago   maybe  or  longer  that  this  happened.  And  they  got  the  guy.  They  got  him  within  two   or  three  blocks  of  Backstreet.  But  actually,  what  the  police  did  when  they  found  out   the  he  was  going  to  The  Park,  they  went  to  The  Park  and  would  not  allow  anyone  in   The  Park  to  leave  because  they  didn’t  know  where  he  was.  And  so  they  basically   locked  it  down,  and  it  was  good  because  those  people  were  safe  inside  because  the   police  were  pretty  much  all  around  that  place.       35:18   MW:  So,  did  they  ever  figure  out  his  motive  behind…?     35:23   SW:  Supposedly  his  motive  was  that  his  last  name  was  Gay,  and  that  he  had  been   harassed  all  his  life  because  of  his  last  name.  Do  I  buy  that  story?  Not  at  all,  not  at  all.   I’m  sorry,  but  that’s  just  not  a  reason  to  go  in  and  kill  somebody  in  cold  blood.  I   mean,  he  didn’t  even  know  these  people,  had  never  seen  these  people.  It  wasn’t  like   there  had  been  any  kind  of  confrontation  with  them  or  anything.  He  just,  like  I  said,   went  in,  sat  at  the  table  with  them,  had  a  beer,  and  got  up  and  they  assumed  he  was   going  to  leave,  but  he  got  up  and  just…  point  blank.       36:17   MW:  So,  after  that  happened  were  people  afraid  to  go  out  to…  was  there  a  lull  in  the   nightlife?     36:26   SW:  Actually,  no.  There  wasn’t.  Because  they  caught  him  that  night.  It  wasn’t  like  it   was  days  or  anything.  They  got  him  probably  within  four  blocks  of  Backstreet.  They   had  a  good  description  of  him  and  everything  so  they  were  right  on  top  of  it.  But  no,   I  think,  if  anything,  it  was  just  the  opposite.  Pretty  much  it’s  the  same  as  I  feel  today,     12   �that  you  can’t  let…  in  our  day  and  time  today,  you  can’t  lock  yourself  in  the  house   because  you’re  afraid  there  might  be  a  terrorist  on  a  street  corner.  I  mean,  you  guys   especially,  because  I  was  telling  someone  the  other  day,  it’s  sad  that  our  kids  today   can’t  go  to  college  and  get  a  college  education  without  worrying  about  some  idiot   that  might  come  in  and  start  shooting  for  no  reason  at  all,  because  it’s  happened  and   for  no  reason.  So  I  think  today  is  worse  than  it  was  then.  Because  I  think  we  kind  of   said  “we’re  not  going  to  stay  home,  we’re  not  going  to  lock  our  doors  and  not  go  out   and  everything.”  So  we  went  back  out.       The  one  nice  thing  that  I  will  say  that  happened  was,  and  I  can’t  remember  the   minister’s  name,  but  there  was  a  minister  about  the  same  time  that  was  going  all   over  the  United  States  and  was  causing  a  lot  of  problems,  like  if  there  was  a  gay   situation  or  something,  and  he  was  saying  people  were  basically  getting  what  they   deserved.  I  can’t  remember  his  name,  but  to  protect  this  guy’s  family,  when  they  had   the  funeral,  there  was  a  row  of  people  that  stood  with  white  sheets  and  held  them   up  so  that  the  media  nor  this  minister,  because  this  minister  said  he  was  coming  to   town  the  day  of  the  funeral.3  We  had  all  gone  through  some  training  about  what  not   to  do.  Do  not  touch  him,  because  that’s  what  he  wanted.  Because  he  would  have  had   everyone  right  where  he  wanted  them  then,  if,  say,  you  had  been  him  and  I  had  as   much  as  put  my  hand  on  you,  you  would  have  cried  foul  “They’re  attacking  me.”  So   we  went  through  a  night  of  training,  of  do  not  touch  them,  ignore  them,  don’t  get   into  any  kind  of  verbal  confrontation  with  them  or  anything.  Just  try  to  block  it  out   of  your  mind.  And  fortunately  he  did  not  come  to  town,  but  he  had  said  he  was  going   to.  And  I  can’t  remember  his  name.  It  was  a  minister,  it  was  about…  I  can’t   remember,  because  it  was  way  after  the  Ryan  White  situation,  but  I  can’t  remember   his  name.  He  was  causing  problems  all  over  the  United  States,  and  trying  to  say  that   the  gay  population  were  the  ones  causing  the  problem.  What  else?     40:01   MW:  Are  there  any  experiences  that  did  make  you  just  want  to—someone  similar  to   that  minster—any  experiences  that  you  faced  where  you  just  had  to  speak  up,  do   something  about  it  where  someone  was  just  discriminating  against  you  because  of   who  you  were  or  who  you  are?       40:22     SW:  It’s  funny  you  ask  that.  Like  I  said  I  was  in  the  parade  or  in  that  candlelight  vigil   march  that  night  and  as  I  walked  the  street  I  thought  this  isn’t  smart  because  you’re   going  to  be  on  the  news  and  everybody  at  work  is  going  to  be  watching  the  news   so…  I  watched  the  news  and  I  wasn’t  on  the  news  and  thought  “phew,  good,”  you   know.  And  then  the  next  morning  I  got  a  newspaper  on  the  way  to  work  and  opened   the  newspaper  and  there  I  was!  Full  leather  carrying  a  leather  pride  flag  and  I’m  like   “no  no  no…”  and  I  thought  how  do  I  handle  this?  And  I  kept  looking  at  the  paper   thinking,  don’t  look  like  me,  didn’t  look  like  me  and  then  I’d  look  again  and  be  like                                                                                                                   3  The  narrator  is  likely  referring  to  the  Westboro  Baptist  Church.  He  is  speaking  of  the  funeral  held   for  Danny  Overstreet,  the  sole  victim  of  the  Backstreet  Café  shooting.     13   �“yeah  it  does,  yeah  it  does,”  there’s  no  doubt  who  that  is.  But  I  went  out  to  work  and   I  thought  about  it  and  I  just  decided  that  if  I  was  confronted  I  was  just  going  to   basically  say  what  I  do  in  my  private  life  is  my  business,  it  has  no  bearing  on  my  job   yet  I  still  do  the  same  job  that  I  always  do,  and  it  was  strange  cause  nobody  said  a   word.  And  I  worried  about  it  all  day,  but  nobody  said  a  word  all  day  long.  About  two   weeks  later  one  of  the  guys  walked  up  to  me  and  he  said  “[I]  saw  your  picture  in  the   paper”  and  I  said  “man…”  He  said  “What  you  do  in  your  life  is  your  business,  nobody   else’s.”  But  that’s  the  only  time  that  I’ve  really  worried  about  that.       42:31   SW:  I’m  a  very  fortunate  person  and  my  partner  is  a  very  fortunate  person  because   both  families  know,  both  families  are  very  accepting.  When  we  got  married  his   mom—his  dad  has  passed  away—but  his  mom  was  here  and  my  sister  was  here  and   we  basically  did  a  Western-­‐type  wedding  and  when  he  came  down  the  steps  he   turned  and  handed  his  cowboy  hat  to  his  mom  and  then  she  took  his  arm  and   walked  across  the  living  room  and  stood  beside  of  him  and  when  I  came  down  I   handed  mine  to  my  sister  and  did  the  same.  And  so  it’s…  and  even  before  his  dad   passed  away,  his  dad  was  always  very  accepting.  His  dad  always  called  me  “son  in   law”  and  it  was  funny  because  he  had  to  go  to  the  hospital  for  open  heart  surgery   and  Mark  had  not  been  here  that  long  and  he  called  me  and  he  said  “how  do  I  get  to   Charlottesville?”  And  I’m  like  “why  are  you  going  to  Charlottesville?”  He  said   “they’re  rushing  my  dad  in  an  ambulance  to  UVA  [the  University  of  Virginia]”  and  I   said  “well  you’re  not  driving,  I’ll  be  home  in  ten  minutes.”  And  so  I  put  him  in  my  car   and  we  took  off  to  Charlottesville.  It  was  strange  because  I  didn’t  know  if  you  believe   in  premonition  or  anything  like  that  but  we  stopped  at  a  rest  area  and  went  and   used  the  bathroom  and  when  I  came  out  I  saw  an  ambulance  go  by  and  I  said  “there   goes  your  dad…  in  that  ambulance.”  And  I  said,  “I’m  catching  it.”  He  said  “you’ll  get  a   ticket,”  and  I  said  “not  unless  they  follow  me  to  Charlottesville  I  won’t  because  I’m   not  stopping.”  And  we  pulled  in  right  behind  the  ambulance  and  it  was  his  dad.  And   so,  they  got  his  dad  out  of  the  ambulance  and  Mark  went  in  with  him  and  everything.   I  went  and  parked  and  came  back  and  went  to  the  room  and  the  nurse  said  “well  you   must  be  his  other  son.”  And  I  said  “no,  I’m  his  son  in  law,”  and  Mark’s  dad  looked   and  grinned  and  said  “yeah,  he’s  my  son  in  law”  and  he  called  me  son  in  law  from   then  on.       44:56     SW:  So  we’re  very  fortunate  there’s  a  lot  of  people  even  today  and  it’s  sad.  There’s  a   lot  of  people  today  that  can’t  come  out  to  their  families.  Or  if  they  do  come  out  to   their  families  they  don’t  really  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  them  anymore  and   we  don’t  have  that  problem.  My  whole  family  knows.  His  whole  family  knows.  I  go  to   family  reunions,  he  goes  to  my  family’s  and  everything.  And  I  think  that’s  the  way  it   should  be,  you  know.  It’s  not  a  matter  of  straight  and  straight  or  gay  and  gay  or   whatever  it’s  a  matter  of  this  is  the  person  that  I  love,  this  is  the  person  I  want  to   share  my  life  with.  Don’t  make  me  choose  between  the  person  I  love  and  my  family   because  if  you  do  you’re  going  to  lose.  If  you  make  me  choose,  I  guarantee  you     14   �you’re  going  to  lose.  Because  I’m  not  going  to  give  up  the  man  I  love,  the  man  I  spent   nine  years  of  my  life  with  for  anybody.  [Long  pause]  And  that’s  just  the  way  I  feel.       46:07     MW:  Absolutely.  So  would  you  say  that  discrimination  towards  the  gay  community   is  worse  now  than  it  was  when  you  were…?     46:16     SW:  No,  no.  I  do  not  think  you  have  the  discrimination  today  that  you  would  have   had  twenty  years  ago  even.  And,  and  I’ll  be  honest  with  you,  I  think  somebody  that   really  helped  that  is  Ellen  DeGeneres.  I  mean  I  can  remember  when  she  first  was   outed,  she  was  ostracized.  I  mean  they  pulled  her  off  of  T.V.  They  did  all  these  things   you  know,  nobody  wanted  anything  to  do  with  her.  And  look  at  her  today.  And  look   at  a  lot  of  your  actors  and  things,  they’re  no  longer  afraid  to  say  “I’m  gay”  or     “I’ve  gotten  married”  or  whatever.  You  can  pick  up  any  magazine  and  start  looking   like,  and  it’ll  say  “so  and  so  got  married”  and  I’m  like  “ah,  we’ve  come  a  long  way.”   We’ve  come  a  long  way.  A  lot  farther  really  than  I  would  have  ever  thought  would   happen  in  my  life.  And  I  think  it  was  time.  I  worry  now  because  of  who’s  running  for   president  [laughing].  And  I  won’t  mention  any  names,  but  I  don’t  think  anyone  could   turn  the  wheels  back,  I  don’t  think  America  would  stand  for  it.  And  you  know,  we   went  through  this  whole  thing  of  the  evangelical  groups  saying  that  if  you  allow  gays   to  get  married  it’s  going  to  hurt  the  straight  lifestyle.  No  it’s  not.  Why?  How?  To  us   the  way  we  looked  at  it  and  we  used  to  talk  about  this  a  lot.  We  did  not  care  if  you   called  it  marriage  or  if  you  called  it  commitment,  whatever  you  wanted  to  call  it  that   was  fine.  What  we  wanted  was  equal  rights.  You  know,  if  I  went  into  a  hospital  I   wanted  to  know  that  Mark  as  my  husband  had  a  right  to  say  this  is  what  you  do.  And   until  they  decided  this  [the  Supreme  Court  case  legalizing  same-­‐sex  marriage]  he   really  didn’t.  I  had  to  have  a  power  of  attorney  for  that,  and  that’s  not  right.  I  mean,   just  like  if  either  of  you,  for  example,  were  in  a  relationship  with  someone  and  you   were  in  that  relationship  for  twenty  years  [pause],  that  person  should  be  able  to   have  a  say  in  your  health.  Whether  you  have  a  little  piece  of  paper  that  says  you’re   married  or  not  married.  I  always  said  a  piece  of  paper  doesn’t  make  a  marriage,  it   doesn’t  break  a  marriage  and  it  doesn’t  make  a  marriage.  And  so  that’s  what  I  really   always  pushed  for  was  I  don’t  care  what  you  call  it,  I  mean  even  today.  I  will  tell  you   this,  I  have  called  him  “husband”  more  with  you  two  than  I  have  called  him  in  a  year   because  I  have  a  hard  time  with  that  stuff.  I  call  him  my  partner  usually.  But  I  have  a   hard  time  calling  him  my  husband.  But  basically  if  you  look  on  our  marriage   certificate  that’s  exactly  what  it  says.  Husband.  But  to  me,  I  don’t—and  that’s   probably  just  me—I  don’t  know  that  America’s  ready  for  husband-­‐husband,  wife-­‐ wife,  although  they  seem  to  be  I  mean  they  don’t  really  seem  to  be  having  a  lot  of   problems  with  it.  You  hear  Patrick  Harris  for  example  calls  his  other  person  in  his   life  “husband,”  Ellen  calls  the  person  in  her  life  “wife,”  but  I  just  have  a  hard  time   with  it.  It’s  easier  for  me  to  say  “partner”  than  “This  is  my  husband.”  I  guess  because   that’s  the  way  I  was  brought  up.     50:43       15   �MW:  So  I  want  to  go  back  just  a  little  bit,  you  mentioned  your  family  and  how   fortunate  you  are  to  have  them  know.  When  did  they  know?       50:55     SW:  [Laughing]  It  hasn’t  always  been  an  easy  road.  When  I  came  home  from  the  Air   Force,  I  came  out  to  my  sister,  who  [then]  told  my  mom,  and  my  dad  had  already   passed  away  at  that  time  and  my  mom  called  and  she  said  [pause]  …  well,  my  sister   told  me  she  had  told  my  mom,  let  me  go  back,  and  so  mom  called  and  I  said  “Well,  I   guess  you  called  to  talk  about  what  sis  told  you”  and  she  said  “What?”  And  I  said   “that  I’m  gay”  and  she  said  “she  didn’t  tell  me  nothing  like  that,”  so  mother  was  kind   of  funny  with  it  for  a  long,  long  time  and  she  wanted  to  know  who  was  the  man  and   who  was  the  woman  and  I  said  “no,  no,  no  it  don’t  work  that  way.  You  don’t  have  to   have  a  man  and  a  woman.  We’re  equal  partners.”  And  she  said  “well,  I  just  don’t   understand.”  And  I  said  “I  know,  I  don’t  really  expect  you  to  understand.”  And  my   mom  lived  in  California  and  it  was  so  funny  because  I  remember  a  statement  that   she  said,  “I  don’t  understand  but  I  know  there’s  a  lot  of  them  that  live  out  here.”   [Laughing]  And  I  said  “yes,  there  is.”       And  so  at  that  time  my  partner  and  I  went  to  visit  and  she  was  going  to  give  me  my   old  bedroom  and  him  the  guest  room  [pause].  And  I  sat  her  down,  and  I  said   “Mother,  we  need  to  have  a  talk.  We  share  a  house  together.  We  share  a  bed  together   at  home.  If  you  and  my  stepdad  came  to  my  house  I  would  not  put  you  in  one  room   and  him  in  another  room,”  and  she  said  “well,  no”  and  I  said  “well  then  why  are  you   doing  it  to  me?”  And  she  sat  there  for  a  minute  and  said  “you’re  right,  it  doesn’t   make  any  sense  does  it?  If  you  do  this  together  at  home…”  And  I’m  one  of  those   people,  I’m  very  respectful  of  people’s  feelings.  I  mean  you  will  never  see  us  out  in   public,  me  with  my  arm  around  him  even.  I  don’t  do  that.  I  don’t  like  to  see   heterosexual[s]  overly  affectionate  in  public.  I  think  there’s  a  time  and  a  place  for   everything  and  I  don’t  think  public  is,  you  know…  I  want  to  go  up  sometimes  and  say   “you  need  to  get  a  room.”  [Laughing]  And  I  feel  the  same  with  couples  that  are  gay.  I   think  too  many  times  people  want  to  try  to  push  it  down  somebody’s  throat,  you   know?  You  have  to  accept  us.  Well  maybe  if  you’d  ease  up  a  little  bit  they’ll  accept   y’all  a  little  better?  But  yeah  it  was  kind  of  rough  for  a  little  while  with  my  family.  [I]   had  a  brother  that  was,  it  was  really  rough  with.  His  first  thought  was  that  he  was   going  to  kidnap  me  and  beat  me  straight.  And  [laughter]  I  don’t  think  so.  I  said  “it   just  doesn’t  work  that  way,  you  know?  I  am  who  I  am.  I’m  still  the  same.”  If  you  met   me  today  and  didn’t  know,  I’d  still  be  me.  What  I  do,  and  I  tell  people  this,  what  I  do   behind  that  door  is  my  business.  What  I  do  on  the  other  side  of  that  door  is  part  of   your  business  because  that’s  public,  you  know.  And  that’s  just  kind  of  the  way  I  look   at  it.  Doesn’t  matter  what  you  do  behind  closed  doors.  That’s  each  individual’s   personal  [business].     55:19     MW:  So  you  went  to  visit  your  mom  in  California,  how  old  were  you  when…     55:24       16   �SW:  When  I  told  her?       55:25   MW:  Yes.       55:26   SW:  Twenty  four,  twenty  five  something  like  that       55:32   MW:  Well  that’s  wonderful  that  she’s  so  accepting.  Is  your  mother  still…  ?       55:36     SW:  No  she’s  passed  away.       55:38     MW:  Sorry  to  hear  that.       55:40   SW:  But,  my  sister,  and  all  my  nieces  and  nephews  call  Mark  uncle.  As  a  matter  of  a   fact  my  niece  probably  talks  to  him  more  than  she  does  me  and  [its]  just  a  very  good   relationship  all  the  way  around.  His  family’s  the  same  way.  We  had  a  little  problem   with  one  member  of  his  family.  He  had  an  uncle  that  would  call  and  invite  Mark  to   Christmas  socials,  wouldn’t  say  “you  and  Sam  come”  would  just  say  “you  come,”  and   Mark  finally  told  his  daughter  “until  he  says  you  and  Sam,  I’m  not  coming.”  So,  we’re   going  this  coming  weekend  because  we  got  a  call  the  other  day  and  he  said  “we  want   Sam  and  you  to  come  for  a  social  at  the  house.”  So…  mark  another  one  off.   [Laughing]  And  I  think  that’s  the  way,  I  think  that’s  the  way  the  world  is  moving.  I   think  as  people  get  more  educated  they’re  more  accepting.  I  had  somebody  tell  me,   and  there’s  a  lot  of  truth  to  this,  people  who  tend  to  not  leave  more  than  25  miles   from  home  tend  to  have  a  very  narrow  perspective.  Especially  if  you  happen  to  be   from  this  area,  you  know,  and  you’ve  never  traveled  or  anything  and  you’ve  always   lived  here  in  the  “Bible  belt,”  you  got  those  blinders.  You  know,  there’s  no  gray  area,   it’s  all  gotta  be  black  and  white,  but  if  you  talk  to  people  that  have  gone  to  school,   that  are  educated  and  things,  that  opens  up  a  whole  new  world  I  think  to  everybody.     57:39     MW:  Absolutely  [pause]  So,  coming  to  Roanoke  and  being  in  the  Leather  club  and   that  having  a  huge  influence  on  you  and  then  after  you  met  your  partner,  so  you   decided  to  stay  in  Roanoke  because  of  work  or  just  because  you  liked  Roanoke  still   as  a  community?     58:00     SW:  Well  I’ve,  like  I’ve  said,  I  didn’t  retire  until  last  year  but  I  do  like  Roanoke.  Of   everywhere  I’ve  ever  lived,  I  like  Roanoke  the  best.  I  had  never  lived  around  the   mountains  until  I  moved  to  Roanoke.  I  don’t  know  if  I  like  living  around  the   mountains  or  not,  and  my  mom  used  to  always  say  “well  you  need  to  move  to     17   �California”  and  I  went  “no,  no.  Too  many  people.”  And  I  joke  with  Mark  every  now   and  then  I’m  like  “we  ought  to  sell  the  house  and  move  to  Florida  since  I’ve  retired”   and  he  said  “really?”  and  I  said  “no,  not  really.”  [Laughing]  I  don’t  really  want  to  do   that.  I  love  Roanoke.  I  love  the  people  in  Roanoke.  We  have  a  lot  of  friends  here,  we   have  a  lot  of  friends  that  are  in  the  Winston-­‐Salem  area  where  Mark  was  living,  a  lot   of  artist  friends  down  there,  and  it’s  a  couple  of  hours  and  we’re  down  there  or  a   couple  of  hours  and  they  can  be  up  here.  So  I  can’t  see  us  living  anywhere  else.       59:09     MW:  So  my  last  question,  how  would  you,  since  you  were  in  Roanoke  from  ‘81,  how   would  you  in  just  a  short  summary  describe  living  in  Roanoke  from  ‘81  until  now?  It   doesn’t  have  to  be  short.       59:27     SW:  A  life  full  of  adventures.  From  the  day  I  moved  here  up  through  this  morning   when  I  told  Mark  “good  morning.”  A  life  full  of  adventure.  Nothing  that  I  would   really  want  to  change.  I’ve  enjoyed  it  and  I  just  look  forward  to  spending  the  rest  of   my  life  here.       59:53     MW:  That’s  wonderful.  Well,  thank  you…     59:55     SW:  You’re  welcome.       59:57     MW:  …so  much  for  your  time,  Sam..We  cannot  thank  you  enough,  and  just  thank  you   for  letting  us  hear  all  about  your  experiences  here.       60:03     SW:  You’re  welcome.       60:05   MW:  Really,  really  appreciate  it.       60:06   SW:  Quite  welcome.         18   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Daddy Sam Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Daddy Sam Interviewer: Marlee Wertz Interviewee: Daddy Sam Date: 24 February 2016 Location: Interviewee’s private residence, Roanoke, VA Total Duration: 60:07 Transcription prepared by: Micheala McDonald, Rachel Barton, and Brittany Peterson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 24 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Daddy Sam; Marlee Wertz; Micheala McDonald; Rachel Barton; Brittany Peterson Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DaddySam https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2613/Davidson_Ron_[compressed].mp3 3c3fc1aff2a0c887a1f8bf5414de19a0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2613/Davidson_Ron.pdf af0ba686f8041e4865a0cd2d163896a0 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Ronald “Ron” Davidson February 28, 2016 Interviewer: Sydney Brennert Interviewee: Ronald “Ron” Davidson Date: February 28, 2016 Location: Mill Mountain Coffeehouse, Campbell Avenue, Roanoke, VA Total: 52:04 Transcribed by: Becca Johnson and Christian Sullivan 0:00 = Introductions 1:17 = homosexuality in the military (Norfolk, Virginia) (1970s) 2:14 = on getting married to his long-time partner in Virginia 2:35 = work experiences in and around Roanoke, including at Macado’s 4:44 = involvement in the artistic community 6:31 = involvement in the first Pride in the Park festivals (1989 – early 1990s) 7:10 = involvement in founding a gay motorcycle club in Roanoke 8:02 = gay bars and restaurants in Roanoke 10:05 = discrimination against gays in the past versus today 12:06 = homosexuality in the Navy (Norfolk, Virginia), including gay prostitution (1970s) 15:52 = experiences in college at UNC-Chapel Hill 17:01 = Roanoke as a “gay hub” that attracts people 18:32 = coming out to his then-girlfriend at The Tradewinds (1970s), and coming out to his parents 22:43 = about his family members 24:10 = work experiences, planning the interior decoration at Macado’s 26:53 = discrimination against gays 28:40 = drug abuse within the gay community 31:11 = more reflections on coming out to family members 33:46 = on interior decoration & how he got the job designing the interior of Macado’s 38:56 = retirement and a love of travel 41:53 = the story of how he met his husband (late 1970s/early 1980s) 43:49 = experiences at Timberfell, a gay men’s resort in Tennessee 45:51 = on the idea of adopting kids 47:20 = reflecting on changes at Pride in the Park (1989-present) 48:40 = Roanoke politicians and the gay constituency   1   �00:01 SB: Hi, my name is Sydney Brennert and I am here with Corey Murphy, and we are at Mill Mountain in downtown Roanoke. The date is February 28 and it is 2:18 pm. So, can you tell us…what is your name? 00:18 RD: My name is Ronald Davidson. 00:20 SB: Where were you born and what is your date of birth? 00:24 RD: November 21, 1948 and I was born in Roanoke. 00:28 SB: Where was your family originally from? 00:31 RD: Both of my grandparents were pretty much from this area… 00:37 SB: Okay 00:38 RD: …Franklin County down through Fincastle [Botetourt County], which are outlying counties. 00:43 SB: So did you have any siblings growing up? Can you tell me about your home life? 00:48 RD: I had one brother. He and I… we weren’t really close growing up. There were never any problems about me being gay, I mean…that wasn’t the reason. He just went one way and I went another way. 01:07 SB: Right. So you say that you and your brother weren’t that close, but he really didn’t have a problem. So when did you find out or realize your sexual preference? 01:17 RD: Probably when I was in the military… which was in the ‘70s. 01:27 SB: So…what was that experience like? Were you outcasted at all for being gay? 01:33   2   �RD: Well…most of the time we would go out and get drunk, there would be a bunch of us. And we’d end up going back and taking a shower all together and then one thing led to another. But then the next day, we would see each other and look at each other like nothing ever happened. 01:50 SB: Right, so before that, did you attend high school? 01:53 RD: Oh yes. 01:54 SB: So then…you weren’t sure that you were gay? 01:59 RD: In high school, I dated women, I played football, I wrestled…the whole nine yards. 02:07 SB: Did you ever marry or have children? 02:10 RD: No. 02:11 SB: Okay. Are you in a relationship now? 02:14 RD: Yes. I’ve been in a relationship for 35 years and we have been married for two [years]. When it was legal in Virginia to get married, I told him that we would get married. And we did. 02:28 SB: Do you live together? 02:30 RD: Oh yes. 02:32 SB: What do you guys like to do on your spare time? 02:35 RD: I retired, and my husband said that I couldn’t retire unless he did. So I said, “Well okay.” We had gotten to the point that everything was paid for. We had some substantial, good income and so we both retired. I sold one house. We moved into a smaller home that was paid for and we travelled. I am a part owner in an antique mall and I travel around, buying and selling antiques. It’s kind of a hobby. 03:15   3   �SB: So you do that in the Roanoke area? 03:17 RD: Well I travel as far as Atlanta doing that, going to shows and going to big auctions. 03:28 SB: Okay. So, you never really left this area…because you said you grew up here. 03:33 RD: Yeah, pretty much I’ve stayed here. 03:36 SB: When you got out of the military, what was your occupation? 03:42 RD: I worked for Ingersoll Rand, that was a big industrial, manufacturing place. Then, I left there and I went to work for Macado’s. I worked there and I kind of worked my way up to where I was kind of my own boss. I was corden belong[?] with the owner. I travelled anywhere from New York to Atlanta, Miami, just buying stuff for his chain of restaurants. 04:19 SB: Have you ever experienced any discrimination at Macado’s at all? 04:23 RD: No. No. Actually my partner and I, when he would have a big Christmas party—I mean he owns twenty stores—it was a large Christmas party, my partner and I would be usually the first people on the dance floor. 04:39 SB: It sounds like you had a pretty extensive social life then. Can you tell us about that? 04:44 RD: Well I’ve always been into the arts. I have a degree in interior design from the University of North Carolina. It started out, I guess when I came back from the military, there really wasn’t a big, good place for gays to gather. So, we would have dinner parties and we go from one couple’s house to another couple’s house. There would be anywhere from five to fifteen couples…that kind of thing. For a while I did some ballroom dancing that involved females, especially at Hotel Roanoke…let me see as far as social… I’ve always been pretty much in the artist type scene here in town. I’ve won the Heironimus Sidewalk Show…I’m a lifetime member of the Fine Arts Council. 05:59 (Tapping on the table) 06:00 SB: Did you meet any interesting people along the way…on your social excursions?   4   �06:07 RD: You mean like…? 06:09 SB: …Like new friends? 06:10 RD: Celebrities or…? 06:11 SB: Celebrities? Anyone. Anyone that really kind of took you back, like wow. Anyone influential? 06:18 RD: Nobody that really impressed me. I’m not really impressed with people. 06:22 SB: [laughing] 06:23 RD: I’m kind of impressed with what they do, not who they are. 06:27 SB: Right. So, are you active in the Roanoke community? 06:31 RD: Not as much as I did. At first when they had Pride in the Park…when they first started that, actually it was in a park right across the street from my house.1 And I did a good bit of fundraising for their… they have silent auctions, and that type of thing. And I knew a lot of business owners in the Roanoke area that would donate stuff. They would donate it because they were… I won’t say sympathetic, but they were for the cause. 07:03 SB: Right, yeah. So we were informed that you actually had started a motorcycle club… 07:10 RD: Well I didn’t start it, but I would say maybe I was a little instrumental in getting it going. It wasn’t really a motorcycle club, it was a Levi leather-type thing. There were only a few members that had motorcycles, but our biggest thing is we raised money for the community. And we would go, there were other clubs around, we would go to D.C. or to Norfolk, and they had chapters of the same type of club there. We would host runs where we would go bar                                                                                                                         1 The first Pride in the Park festival was held in Wasena Park in 1989. According to an informal history written by Charlotte Eakin, Pride in the Park was held in Wasena Park from 1989-1995; Highland Park from 1996-2003; and Elmwood Park from 2004 to the present. See Charlotte Eakin, “PRIDE History,” c. 2006, http://www.roanokepride.org/history.html (Accessed March 24, 2016).   5   �hopping and that kind of thing, but most of the time it was to raise awareness and money for different charities. 07:51 SB: So, you said before how there wasn’t really a lot places for all of you guys to go out, so you would go to different couple’s houses… 07:57 RD: Yeah. 07:58 SB: Would you say that that has changed now, is there more environments for you guys? 08:02 RD: Oh yes, I feel like that we have really paved the way for the newer generations. Like the gay and lesbian clubs in high school now, that was unheard of when I was growing up, unheard of. And now they can be openly going to proms together, that was all unheard of. So I think we kind of paved the way for all that. And now…it used to be there were certain restaurants and stuff that would tolerate this, but now I think they all have to because they’re all in competition to get patrons. And I will say probably, the gay community spends a lot more money than people realize. 08:50 SB: So, now what are some types of places you go to? 08:55 RD: Now, I go to Macado’s, and one reason is because I know everybody there. And it has become kind of a central hangout for the gays. The Park, I haven’t been in several years. I don’t like the new music. Most everybody there, I could be their grandfather. 09:19 SB: [laughing] 09:20 RD: You know, I just don’t feel really comfortable. 09:22 SB: Right. 09:23 RD: In the younger days, we used to go to a place called the Garden Lounge in North Carolina, and we would get a couple of loads of people and drive down there just for the night because there was really nothing here. There was the Trade Winds, I’m sure you’ve heard about that extensively, which I bartended at for a while. And then I hit all the regulars, O’Charley’s, all of the rest of the restaurants that anybody else would go to, I go to.   6   �10:05 SB: So, what do you feel are some of the more important changes in the area since you grew up and realized “I am gay?” Have you noticed any important changes in the area, in the stuff that you’ve been a part of, that you feel has changed, the stigma? 10:23 RD: Well, like I was saying, I think that the older crowd really paved the way for the younger people now. That, you could probably go anywhere in town here now holding hands, as a samesex couple, and there would be very little said. When I was growing up here, you couldn’t do that. You would be called names, or shunned of honor, or have something thrown at you. 10:56 SB: So, growing up, did you ever experience discrimination? 11:02 RD: My size and I’ve always been very outgoing. I’ve always been able to fend for myself and I have never had problems with it at all. I mean as far as people calling me names because if they did I’d probably kick the shit out them. 11:20 SB and RD: [laughing] 11:22 SB: Touché. So did you ever really face any struggles or hardships growing up? 11:29 RD: No, not really. I grew up, my mom was a CPA [Certified Public Accountant], my dad was a business owner. He always had anxieties for me to take over the business, but I did not feel like being a mechanic. And so my brother kind of stepped in…and then, my brother was an alcoholic and he ended up…he didn’t take over. My parents just ended up retiring and closing the business down. 12:06 SB: So, in the military, let’s go backtrack to that. 12:13 RD: Okay. 12:14 You said that you guys would go out and what not, and then shower together, and then the next day it would be totally normal, like nothing happened. 12:21 RD: Right. 12:22   7   �SB: Was that like an everyday type…not every day, but reoccurring? 12:25 RD; Eh, most weekends. 12:26 SB: Okay. And so… 12:29 RD: And actually I did have one of the rarest experiences. There was a bar in Norfolk, and I was stationed at the base there. And one of my friends, that I had got[ten] to know, he said, “Do I want to make some extra money?” And he said, “Well there’s a wrinkle room over here.” And I go “what in the world is a wrinkle room?” And it was older men that would pay younger men for sex. 13:01 SB: interesting. 13:03 RD: I ended up going home with an older…Navy, I don’t know if he was a Captain, but he was an officer, and I don’t remember a whole lot about it, but I remember there were right many people there, and I remember he gave me $100 to get a cab home. 13:25 SB: So, would you say that… 13:27 RD: [laughing] 13:30 SB: Do you still think that these things like still occur, in the military? 13:37 RD: They probably occur everywhere, whether it’s in the military or not in the military. “Escort services” I guess now, they would be called. It was hush-hush then. That $100 that I got from that guy, I called a buddy of mine on base, and told him to come and get me, I never did get a cab, and I kept that $100. 14:05 SB: What’d you spend it on? 14:06 RD: Oh I don’t know. I just thought that was just the wildest thing in the world. 14:15 SB: So, tell us more about your military experience. What were your daily duties, daily tasks?   8   �14:22 RD: I ended up going to submarine school. I spent six years in. I was on a nuclear submarine out of Holy Loch, Scotland. I was in during Vietnam, but we never saw any action, we were just on the ready, on the outside in case something happened. I was in tear[?] communication. I was in charge of all the communication going on and off the boat. It was pretty boring. 14:54 SB: Now that you’re obviously out of the military, and you’re living in Roanoke, and you’re retired, at this point in your life, what is something that is important to you? 15:10 RD: My partner is 13 years younger than I am. When I go I would like to make sure that he is very well taken care of. I have a nephew that is in prison right now, and he has robbed the family so many times, that I have nothing for him at all. So, my partner is the main one. He has a brother that we really think a lot of, that we will probably leave something to. Other than that, I’m the end of the line. 15:52 SB: In college, you said you went to UNC. Can you tell us some of your social experiences there, what did you like to do on the weekends? 16:04 RD: I’d usually come home. 16:06 SB: Okay. I feel like that’s a far hike. 16:09 RD: Huh? 16:10 SB: Is that a far drive, from here to there? 16:11 RD: No. No, it’s like two and a half hours. 16:15 SB: And so, you would just go home to your family home? 16:17 RD: Yeah. Or there were a couple of theater groups there that sometimes I would help with. Painting sets and backdrops that I would help out there. I’ve only had really two jobs in my life and I’ve only had two lovers. 16:44   9   �SB: When you did come home on the weekends during college, what were some of the things that you would do in the area? 16:49 RD: We would just get together with friends and maybe go bar hopping, or go to somebody’s house. There was always a lot of dinner parties. 17:01 SB: What do you think are some challenges facing gay people in Roanoke today? 17:11 RD: That’s a tough one. It seems like Roanoke has become the hub of Virginia and North Carolina. There’s always been, since the 1940s, it’s always been like a gay hub. People come from other places to live here because it was a little more tolerable, but I don’t know. 17:40 SB: So… 17:41 RD: I think they’re already accepted and there could always be a little more of that, but maybe educating some of the people. Even the ones that are gay to make good choices, and ones that aren’t gay to realize that we are humans. But as far as making things better, I don’t know. 18:19 SB: You say that you wish that there was a little bit more acceptance, there is already, but it’s always good to have more. When you first came out, was your family accepting? Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? 18:32 RD: The first time I came out, that I heard of a bar in Roanoke, I was in the military. I took leave. I had a girlfriend. We went to a bar called the New Wood, which is no longer there. I told her I was going to go outside and smoke a cigarette. Well I didn’t, I went across the street to the gay bar because I had never been there. I walked in and I asked the guy, he was a Lebanese guy, the Georges, which I got to know a whole lot better later.2 I asked him, I said, “Am I in the right place?” He said, “Well the bar is downstairs.” So I went downstairs and here was all these people, it was like another little world. There was a nice restaurant upstairs, but then there was a bar in the basement. Then I left and I went back with her. Later, we went out again and I told her, I was going to come out to her. Her mother was one of the drama coaches at Hollins College, so I’m sure she had been around a lot more gay people than I had, even though she wasn’t gay. Well I took her to this Tradewinds, and as I was going down the steps I told her—I don’t want to say her name—“When we go in here there’s something I got to tell you.” We opened the door and went in, and she knew everybody there. And this was going to be a surprise for me, and she knew everybody there. From then on, we were just kind of friends                                                                                                                         2   The Tradewinds bar was run by a pair of gay Lebanese-American brothers, Herbie and Lewis George. 10   �20:17 SB: Do you think she already knew? 20:19 RD: I think she did. 20:21 SB: So she took it well when you came out and said it. 20:24 RD: Oh yeah, well like I said, she knew everybody there. And I didn’t know anybody, and I was going to come out to her, but I think she knew. As far as my mom and dad, my dad was a drill instructor in the Marines. He was one of the last survivors at Iwo Jima. My mom was fine with it. My dad would never talk about it. He wanted me to be a man. He didn’t realize that if you were gay you were a man, I guess. But, mom was fine. Mom would cut things out of the paper and put them where he would see them, and have to read them. And he would because he read all the time, but he never would discuss anything with me. Nothing at all. 21:29 SB: So was your relationship with your dad kind of distant? 21:32 RD: No, it was pretty good, but I think he was a little ashamed. I think he was a little ashamed, him being a big military man, and [to him] that kind of thing just wasn’t right. 21:51 SB: Do you still talk to any of the guys that you hung out with in the military? 21:57 RD: Oh no. No, I have no idea where they are. 22:01 SB: Would you be interested ever trying to reach out to them or finding them? 22:05 RD: No. I think that’s just a chapter that’s behind me. I don’t have any regrets, but I don’t see any reason. There’s more people in my past that I would like to reach out to than them. 22:19 SB: Who are those people that you would like to reach out to? 22:22 RD: Oh, some people that maybe I was in college with, or even some of the people that I grew up with that moved out of town, or even some cousins…fourth or fifth cousins, that I’ve only met once or twice.   11   �22:38 SB: So your family now, that you have… 22:43 RD: I don’t. My dad’s been deceased for ten years, and my mom…[no,] fifteen years [for my dad] and my mom for ten years, and then my brother…he’s been deceased for probably ten years. I have no brothers and sisters, or grandparents, or mom and dad. I have first and second cousins that are eighty years old. 23:11 SB: And do you hang out with them at all? 23:14 RD: Most of them. I have some cousins that live in Florida, that we’ll go down and visit them, or they’ll come up and visit us. And my cousin, they live in Florida. His daughter, she has a black boyfriend. She has two children by marriage, beautiful kids. And then she has a black boyfriend, and then she has a white girlfriend. And her boyfriend is like a babysitter, that’s all he does, and she goes out and parties. So we get along real good and we’re on Facebook a lot talking, and that kind of thing. 23:58 SB: So they don’t have a problem with you being gay at all? 24:02 RD: No. Oh no. No. 24:06 SB: So…I’m trying to think here… 24:09 RD: [laughing] 24:10 SB: We’ve covered a lot and it’s only been 24 minutes. We talked about how you worked at Macado’s. Can you tell us the experience that you had there and a little bit of what exactly you did? You said you actually decorated the inside of it. 24:26 RD: It was a good working experience. The owner and I were good friends. Of course him being a multimillionaire, he has a lot of people that want to be his friend. Even today, if him and his wife are fighting, he’ll get a six-pack and come over to the house, and we sit on the deck, and he’ll spill his guts and just talk. We’re still just friends. But he and I would travel to Atlanta and he would stay there one…we would go to a big, huge auction…and he would stay there one day with me, then he’d go off to play golf in Pinehurst or something, and just leave me. Then, I’d buy whatever I wanted to and then I’d fly back.   12   �25:16 SB: So at these auctions, what are some of the things that you do? 25:20 RD: Oh, I would buy stuff that was just neat, weird, strange… 25:24 SB: For Macado’s. 25:25 RD: Yeah. Just to decorate. I always liked when he’d open a new store, we used to be able to go in…We’ve got a warehouse that’s probably half as big as a football field, that’s packed, when I left there eight years ago. We liked to go in and say, “Oh we’ll take this, and this, and this, and this.” We could just pick through it. A lot of times… I bought a pair of boots, that are Justins, they are 10 feet tall. They were advertisement, but they’re 10 feet tall. I bought the two boots out of California and had them shipped here, and when they came in, he said, “What in the world are we going to do with those?” I said, “I don’t know, I just think they’re neat.” I had a really good job. 26:16 SB: Do you miss it at all? 26:18 RD: Yeah. 26:20 SB: What do like to do during the day? If you’re retired, what are the some of the daily things that you like to do to have fun? 26:29 RD: I still like to take off and hit some antique shops and just look around. I’m always tinkering with something. I’m good with electronics. But, there’s not much else… watch TV. 26:52 [Stopped the recording to regroup and reset the line of questioning. RD interrupted again and we quickly put the recording back on.] 26:53 RD: …know that didn’t have it as well as I did growing up. They would be called fags, and throw stuff at them, and their cars vandalized, but I never had any of that. And I always knew that I was fortunate. 27:09 SB: Do you have any close friends that experienced hard times? 27:17   13   �RD: Not close friends, but people I knew. 27:21 SB: Right, so that must be difficult to hear because you didn’t have that rough of a time. I assume it was hard to hear. 27:30 RD: Yeah. But a lot of it I think they brought on themselves. Flaunting stuff, or saying something to somebody who’s straight that they know they don’t want to hear. 27:47 SB: For the most part, were you kind of conservative with it, and wouldn’t really put it out there? 27:53 RD: Right, I’ve tried to live my life just as a normal person, except I have a different sexual preference. Where we live right now, our neighbors absolutely love us. We have keys to all of their houses, they leave and they want us to check on their dogs. There’s a woman that lives beside me, that’s eighty years old, and she’ll bake cakes and pies, and bring them over to the house. It’s just a good relationship. 28:27 SB: I’m glad to hear that. What would you say is the biggest… 28:40 RD: I just thought of something. You were saying that one of the biggest problems…I do think that the gay scene has a bigger drug problem. Anybody I’ve ever known to get any drugs from were gay. Or any of them that hurt themselves because they were high, were gay. I don’t know if [it was] because they were oppressed, or what it might’ve been. But it seems like years ago, I don’t know about today because I’m just not hip with everything right now, but I know years ago…if you wanted to buy liquor after hours, you needed somebody gay that had it at home that were selling it, or pot. We never were into doing cocaine and heroin. You might do a little speed or a little weed and that was about it. 29:48 SB: So on nights out, you and your partner would just drink and have a good time. Do you have friends that kind of went a little crazy with drugs or anything like that? 30:04 RD: Not close friends. Uh, I’ve known some people, but I wont say they’re close friends, that you know have done harder drugs and stuff. I know a lot of them, around the drag queens, I know I mean that they seemed like those people were always doing cocaine. I mean I don’t know if they needed to get their nerve up or what it was but they were always doing cocaine, but they were staying up all hours of the night. 30:42 SB: Were you ever interested in doing that kind of stuff?   14   �30:43 RD: No, I can’t say I haven’t done it 30:48 SB: Mhm. 30:49 RD: But it’s a habit. I’ve done it... I would look at at it like now this makes people lose everything they have, their job, and makes them rob from their parents you know? Now how good can this be. You know, I just I don’t think there could be anything that good. 31:11 SB: When you told your parents that you were coming out, did you, were you ever worried that you would lose, lose, everything? 31:19 RD: That I would lose everything? Well my parents never gave me everything to start with. Now my.., I was always a little resentful of my brother because, you know, he had three or four children, was married a couple of times. He lived in one of their houses. He worked for my dad. You know, my dad was constantly getting him out of trouble. And I’m the one... I went off to school, and I went into the military. I never asked them for anything, so they didn’t really have anything they could take away from me. 31:55 SB: Were you worried about losing them at all? 31:58 RD: Oh well yeah always, always. They, they lived to be, you know, in their eighties. 32:04 SB: Mhm, but losing them I guess if they weren’t okay with you being gay. Do you think, did you ever like, worry about that? 32:14 RD: No, I don’t think I ever. I don’t think I ever thought that. I don’t think I ever thought that at all. 32:21 SB: Do you have any friends that you lost along the way because you were gay? 32:24 RD: No 32:26 SB: So everyone was pretty much accepting?   15   �32:28 RD: If they were friends they wouldn’t. 32:33 SB: So what would you say was the most influential event growing up that made you who you are today? 32:46 RD: Hmm [Long pause] 33:00 RD: I don’t know. 33:02 SB: Or a couple events? Anything. 33:04 RD: You mean an event, or a person, or? 33:07 SB: An event, a person, anything influential that really sticks out to you as something that made you who you are. [Silence] 33:24 RD: Uh, I couldn’t say. I don’t know. [Long pause] 33:46 RD: I’ve always, like, kind of liked the finer things, and it seems like if you like the finer things you’re going to be around gay people. I mean, I don’t know why that is but… 34:06 SB: Good taste. 34:07 RD: Yeah, I guess. Good taste. I fight with my husband all the time about... I collect a lot of things. And like you can put a nice... I have marble-top tables, and I’ll put a lamp on it and four or five... I see how much stuff I can get on it, and he don’t want it. He wants to put the lamp on it and that’s it, but if there’s a spot usually I can find something to put on it.   16   �34:33 SB: Have you ever designed like the interior of someone else’s house and stuff like that? 34:37 RD: What? 34:38 SB: Did you ever, um, design someone’s interior of their house or stuff like that? 34:43 RD: I’ve done some kitchens and some bathrooms. You know, just that kind of thing. But not really. 34:53 SB: And so what led you to Macado’s if you majored in interior design? 34:59 RD: Well, I had left Ingersoll Rand and I had a friend—she had an antique store—and so I was working there and she was like gone all the time so I pretty much ran the store. Well then I got a chance to run an antique mall that used to be here in Roanoke. And I did that. Well then the city took the building, and the people that owned it, the building [that] had the antique mall, he [also] owned Macado’s. And so I just went from there into Macado’s. 35:41 SB: And so he hired you knowing that you were going to be designing and picking things out for the inside of Macado’s? 34:46 RD: No, not at first, not at first. 35:49 SB: So at first what, what did you do? What was your job for Macado’s? Just a server? 35:55 RD: Oh no. I’ve never worked in the restaurant. I went to work on the construction crew, and we were, you know, like building booths and just that kind of stuff, doing like the layouts, and I would pick the fabric for the cushions, and then he just kept giving me more and more and more to do, and I just ended up doing just that. 36:23 SB: So while designing the inside of Macado’s, like how did you get the vision to get all these crazy things and just stick them everywhere? 36:30 RD: I have no idea. I have no idea.   17   �36:35 SB: It just like came to you? 36:36 RD: I guess it is just a [way of] looking at things different than… I can kind of see ahead, look [at] like what the end result is going to be before it is there. A lot of times I would be doing something and he would [be] like “why you doing that?” and I said “it’ll work out. It’ll work out.” And then when I finished it, he’s like “wow, isn’t that great!” 37:00 SB: So how long did it take you to do everything from start to finish? 37:04 RD: What the restaurant? 37:05 SB: Mhm. 37:07 RD: Uh, three or four months 37:09 SB: Not too bad. 37:11 RD: No, usually it was three or four months. 37:14 SB: And so along the way of picking things up and antiques and stuff like that for Macado’s, did you meet anyone interesting along the way? Like would you buy antiques and crazy things from interesting people? 37:27 RD: Well, I guess I bought some [of the] original light fixtures from outside of the Hotel Roanoke. I bought some light fixtures from out of the old the Roanoke Theatre that’s been closed for a long time. Meryl Streep did come in[to] the antique shop and did a lot of shopping for her friends. It was on a Sunday I think and we were closed, and she called Saturday and said could she come in, and I said “well if its just you,” and I went down and opened the shop and she came in and she bought four or five thousand dollars worth of stuff. 38:07 SB: Wow. 38:08 RD: Just, just little knickknacks and stuff to give her friends.   18   �38:12 SB: Did you meet anyone else famous in that… 38:14 RD: Uh 38:14 SB: …line of job? 38:17 RD: Yeah. There was a guy, a little short actor. I can’t think of his name. Well, he was doing a movie down at Smith Mountain Lake. And I did… We loaned some stuff for Dirty Dancing, up at [Smith] Mountain Lake with Patrick Swayze, we loaned them some stuff one time but that was about it. They’re just people. 38:56 SB: And so what made you really want to retire if you loved it so much? 39:03 RD: I like to travel. We take a couple of cruises a year and we’ll take a trip out to Charlestown to the horse races, or we’ll go out to Vegas. We do something every about three months probably. 39:16 SB: What has been your favorite vacation spot? 39:19 RD: Oh Lord… Belize. 39:26 SB: What kind of stuff did you do there? 39:28 RD: Huh? 39:29 SB: What kind of stuff did you do there? 39:30 RD: In Belize? 39:31 SB: Mhm. 39:32   19   �Rd: You can live like a king for nothing there. I mean, absolutely. We’ve looked into buying a place there. I mean, you can buy a 300,000 dollar home for like 40,000 dollars, and plus you can get a maid that’ll live there for like, you know, twenty dollars a month. 39:58 SB: Wow, so what other things? 39:59 RD: It’s just nice to relax, and I like to go out fishing. 40:01 SB: Mhm. 40:02 RD: You know, that kind of thing. 40:04 SB: So, what other destinations have you visited? 40:08 RD: What? 40:09 SB: What other destinations have you gone to? 40:11 RD: Well we’ve been… I haven’t been to Europe. But just mainly Mexico, South America... I’ve been to Venezuela. Where else have we been? Well, let’s see… we’ve been to Seattle, went to Vancouver. We like Aruba, too. Aruba’s really nice. 40:48 SB: So you mentioned before that you had gone to Vegas. 40:52 RD: Oh yeah. 40:54 SB: [Laughing] Can you tell us about that experience? 40:54 RD: My mom and dad like to gamble and they would go about every four months, three or four months. And my mom’s nickname was Totsy, and I’ve got a caricature of her in my den and it says “Slotsy-Totsy.” She liked to play the five-dollar slot machines, and I saw her win thirtyseven thousand dollars one time. Now my dad, he liked to play blackjack. Hundred dollars a hand, and he would never tell you whether he won or lost. But we used to do a father-son gambling trip. We would go up to Atlantic City. And he always told me whatever I took, he   20   �would match it and give it to me. And so, so he would. Most of the time I’d lose, but most of the time he’d win. [Laughing] 41:49 SB: So were there any trips that you and your partner and your parents would take? 41:53 RD: Me and my parents used to go to Vegas, but Danny’s been with me everywhere we go. 42:01 SB: And so how did you meet him? 42:06 RD: One enchanted evening across a crowded room, at The Park.3 42:13 SB: [Laughing] 42:15 RD: He said I was stalking him. And I told him, he said, and I don’t know, but he said that I came up and I said “you’re going home with me,” and he said “no, I’m not either,” he said I was drunk. And he said later, when he saw me and I wasn’t, he said “well I think I kind of like him.” And he was actually renting from a good friend of mine, and I went over to this friend’s [apartment]. We were going to… my parents had a summer home in Craig County, we were going over there and he came out and we talked, and I asked him if he wanted to go over there and he said “yeah,” and we were together ever since. 43:00 SB: Wow, so after that whole thing when you first had met, where did you guys usually go out for like dates and stuff like that? 43:10 RD: Tradewinds, The Park, Last Straw. Then there was another one… My friend who had the house that he lived in, he owned a little gay bar on Kirk Avenue then called the Nite & Day for a short period of time. He was a country and western singer. 43:37 SB: That’s pretty cool [laughs] 43:38 RD: Well, he even had a Hank Williams Jr. look alike thing [and] he would do a gig in Vegas. He had a tour bus.                                                                                                                         3 This appears to be a reference to the song “One Enchanted Evening” from the Broadway musical South Pacific (1949). The lyrics of the song go, in part, “One enchanted evening, you may meet a stranger, you may meet a stranger across a crowded room.”   21   �43:47 SB: And would you go out there with him? 43:49 RD: No, no. I never went. And then we’d take off usually. You know the movie “Sordid Lives?” 43:58 SB: I don’t. 43:59 RD: Huh? 43:59 SB: I don’t. 44:00 RD: Write that down and rent it. Its one of the most funniest movies you will ever… Its called “Sordid Lives,” its got like Delta Brooke [Delta Burke] in it, and Burke, and its got a lot of famous people in it but it’s a “trailer trash” movie with a lot of gay people in it and people trying to quit smoking, but anyway they do a thing on that up at Timberfell, that’s the place we go up in Tennessee. It’s a gay men’s resort. And its just people act out the parts in the movie. It is so funny. 44:42 SB: So what kind of things go on at an all men’s resort? 44:45 RD: Well it’s all naked and, uh, well they have saunas, there’s backpacking and horseback riding. People bring their pets. It’s just a lot of… I’ve met airline pilots, and doctors, and lawyers from all over the country there. It’s just a getaway. You know you’d think it’d be like a lot of sex and you know cause everybody is walking around naked but it isn’t. You meet some of the nicest people. You meet a lot of married people that have boyfriends on the side and they’ll come up from Florida and you know spend a week up there. Just to get away. 45:31 SB: Did you go there a lot? 45:32 RD: We usually go once a year. In the summer. 45:37 SB: So do you feel that your essential identity is based on your sexual orientation? So do you think that you would be different if you weren’t gay? 45:51   22   �RD: No. No. I’d probably [be] married and have four or five kids and probably be in debt up to my butt, but that’d be the only thing. [Laughing] 46:04 SB: So you never wanted to adopt kids? 46:07 RD: We thought about it but I’m too old. I mean you know I’m too old to do it. If I were younger I would definitely think about it. I would definitely think about it. But kids are for young people. 46:26 SB: Agreed. [Laughing] 46:27 RD: I’ve got two dachshunds. 46:30 SB: And so do you usually like take them around town, walk around and what not? 46:35 RD: No, not really. I mean they’ll go on trips with us 46:39 SB: Yeah 46:40 RD: But if we drive. But, well one of them is three years old and the other one is five months. And one of them is a standard dachshund and the other one’s a miniature dachshund. They’re good dogs. 46:57 SB: So those are your babies. [Laughing] 46:58 RD: Huh? 46:59 SB: I said those are your kids. 47:00 RD: Oh yeah, and they don’t want for anything. 47:05 SB: [Laughing] Back to Roanoke. Do you think that there are any important events that happen in Roanoke that kind of changed the stigma around the gay community here?   23   �47:20 RD: Except for Pride in the Park? See I think personally Pride in the Park has gotten to be just a carnival. You know, when it first started it, I think it had a good substance about it but I don’t think now it has like the real.,. Its gotten so commercialized and you know with all the vendors and I mean we didn’t have that then. 47:57 SB: So when did you realize that it was changing and more commercialized? 48:00 RD: When it moved from Highland Park to Elmwood Park.4 48:05 SB: And so were some of your best friends.. . 48:07 RD: It was a little more private then.. 48:09 SB: Right, and you obviously liked that more. 48:11 RD: Yeah. 48:12 SB: So what exactly goes on during that? 48:16 RD: What? Pride in the Park? 48:17 SB: Yes. 48:18 RD: Oh they have guest speakers in and there’s just, you know, a lot of kids. I think there’s a lot of gay people that have children and you know they bring all their kids. There’s face painting and it’s just… That’s not for me. 48:40 SB: Understandable. So politically, what are your thoughts on how Roanoke has changed over the years? Do you think that there’s been legislat[ion] passed... 48:54                                                                                                                         4 According to an informal history written by Charlotte Eakin, Pride in the Park was held in Wasena Park from 1989-1995; Highland Park from 1996-2003; and Elmwood Park from 2004 to the present. See Charlotte Eakin, “PRIDE History,” c. 2006, http://www.roanokepride.org/history.html (Accessed March 24, 2016).   24   �RD: I think because of the big gay population here, I don’t think Republican, Democrat, or man, or woman that’s running for anything, I don’t think they would want to step on their toes. So they will be supporting them to get their vote. If somebody came out and they were really antigay or whatever, and they came out on a platform like that, they may as well shoot themselves. 49:31 SB: [Laughing] 49:34 RD: I mean, and there’s a lot of officials in town that have kids and have brothers and sisters that are gay. They’re very prominent people in town. 49:46 SB: So overall though, your experience in the Roanoke area is pretty, pretty good? 49:51 RD: Yeah. 49:51 SB: For being a gay man? 49:52 RD: Yeah. And I will say that women have had it easier than men because you know its every straight redneck’s dream to have sex with a lesbian and change them over [laughing] 50:14 SB: [Laughing] True. 50:15 RD: Well its true. 50:15 SB: [laughing] yeah. 50:16 RD: Oh they love to see two women having sex but they wouldn’t dare watch two men. You know, they just think that’s the hottest thing in the world. 50:23 SB: Why do think that there’s that stigma? 50:26 RD: I don’t know. I think the men that think that they’re not challenged by a woman. 50:38 SB: All right.   25   �50:39 RD: …where they would be by a man 50:42 SB: Well I think that’s about it, so we would just like to thank you for your time 50:48 RD: [Laughing] 50:49 SB: Do you have any closing remarks or anything you’d like to say? 50:57 RD: No, not really. 50:58 SB: [Laughing] Okay. Thank you Ron. 51:00 RD: Not that I haven’t had already. 51:02 SB: [Laughing] 51:04 RD: Did y’all talk to Danny? Jones? 51:08 SB: Did we talk to Danny? 51:09 RD: Danny Jones?5 51:11 CM (Corey Murphy): I believe that the man who referred you to us, or the man who referred... 51:16 RD: He used to be the librarian here. 51:20 CM: We talked to someone, I forget…                                                                                                                         5 Gregory Rosenthal conducted an oral history interview with Daniel Jones on February 20, 2016 for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project: Oral History Initiative. That interview is also catalogued within the LGBTQ History Collection at the Virginia Room.   26   �51:22 RD: Danny Jones? 51:22 CM: It might have been him. 51:25 RD: I think he said he did it in the office at Roanoke College. 51:29 CM: Yeah, I honestly think it was him. 51:31 RD: Was it him? 51:32 CM: I think so. 51:33 RD: A beard? 51:35 CM: I didn’t see anyone. We talked to someone else, but I don’t... 51:41 CM: via email, yeah 51:43 RD: Because like I met him when I first got out of the service. And we’ve been friends for fifty years, forty years. 51:53 SB: Wow that’s a long time 51:56 RD: [Laughing] 51:57 [turning off the recording device] End Transcript   27   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Ron Davidson Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Ron Davidson Interviewer: Sydney Brennert Interviewee: Ronald “Ron” Davidson Date: February 28, 2016 Location: Mill Mountain Coffeehouse, 117 Campbell Avenue SE, Roanoke, VA Total Duration: 52:04 Transcription prepared by: Becca Johnson and Christian Sullivan Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 28 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ron Davidson; Sydney Brennert; Becca Johnson; Christian Sullivan Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DavidsonRon https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2614/Lindsey_Virginia_[compressed].mp3 2afb5f0fcf23a61d745c2a46863ff52c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2614/Lindsey_Virginia.pdf b84871b275ae8f09492969f8d1a15870 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project   Oral History Initiative     Interview with Virginia Irene Lindsey   February 25, 2016     Interviewer: Alexis Rixner   Interviewee: Virginia Lindsey   Date: Thursday, February 25, 2016   Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 221 College Ln, Salem, VA 24153 Total: 80:04 Transcription prepared by: Sabrina McIntyre 0:00 = Introductions 2:14 = growing up in Virginia and attending a private military school until age 18 5:45 = attending college in Tennessee 8:23 = family history, about her grandfather, father, and grandmother. The first time her grandmother put her in a dress (at age 6 or 7) 17:25 = her relationships with cisgender women 20:58 = thoughts on sexual orientation and gender identity 26:42 = remembering her first instance identifying as female 28:10 = deciding to come out as transgender (mid-1990s) 33:26 = the story of coming out to her friend, and her friend’s mother, as transgender (2000s) 40:39 = nightlife in Roanoke 42:26 = more thoughts on sexual orientation, attraction; and violence against TGs 45:53 = involvement in the Blue Ridge Society, the first transgender organization in Roanoke (1990s) 51:16 = about Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge, how it was founded, and why she left the organization (mid-2000s) 57:39 = the story of attending a gay and lesbian dance as a transwoman 61:43 = the story of when her wife’s in-laws challenged her gender identity 66:27 = on the reasons for transphobia within both gay and straight communities 68:10 = on defining transgender, versus other terms 70:20 = on switching between identities as a transwoman and a cis man 72:47 = looking at old photographs of her and her friends   1   �     Interview (1:20:04 total)     0:00 Alexis: It is 1:30 pm, Thursday, February 25, 2016. My name is Alexis Rixner, and I am a Roanoke College student, and I am here with Virginia Lindsey in the Fintel Library located in Salem, Virginia. I am conducting this interview of an oral history as a public record for the community. Our first question is “What pronoun do you use to identify yourself?”     0:26 Virginia: She.     0:31 Alexis: Why did you agree to participate in this project?     0:36 Virginia: [pause] To make people more aware that we exist. That we’re no different from anyone else and we expect to be treated like anyone else would be. It’s the golden rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”     1:01  Alexis: Mhm, definitely. What do you hope to gain out of this experience?     1:05 Virginia: Just the satisfactions that I may have helped someone else understand that there are differences in people.     1:16 Alexis: Mhm, ok. How long have you lived in Virginia?   1:26 Virginia: Ooh [sighs] Hm, that’s interesting. [Another pause for thought] Let’s just say, virtually all my life. Between Virginia and Tennessee.     1:41 Alexis: Virginia and Tennessee?     1:42 Virginia: It gets pretty complicated but it was something kinda out of my hands.     1:48 Alexis: Ok, so what areas of Virginia did you live, if you could just name them all. Was it in this area?     1:55 Virginia: Yeah, in the Roanoke area.     1:57 Alexis: Ok.     1:58 Virginia: I went to a private school called Fork Union [Military Academy].     2:03 Alexis: Fork Union?     2:05 Virginia: Yep, for quite a while.     2   �   2:07 Alexis: and would you say most of your adult life has been in this area?     2:10 Virginia: Yes.     2:14 Alexis: Ok, so what was it like growing up I guess predominately in Virginia? Like schooling, I guess financial status, etc.? What was it like for you? You can do a progression.     2:26 Virginia: Well it’s, again, it’s a complicated issue. I was raised by my grandparents. And I would assume that they interpreted the child that they were dealing with to have what is now called “HADD” or “HADA” or whatever [ADHD: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder] and I was in private schools from, I was 4 ½ [years old] until I graduated.     2:56 Alexis: Wow, ok, and what about… [Virginia interrupts to clarify]     3:00 Virginia: These are military private, military schools.     3:02 Alexis: Military schools? Ok. Were your grandparents in the military or they just…?     3:06 Virginia: No. My mother and father were. But again, that’s you’re… [slightly chuckles], we could spend the rest of the afternoon discussing that little…“thing”. Anyway, I was in private military schools when I was 4 ½ until I started in college at 18.     3:23 Alexis: And how was your experience in these private schools? What you said.     3:28 Virginia: How was it?     3:29 Alexis: Yea, how was your experience?     3:31 Virginia: It’s all I knew. I mean you started a child off at 4 ½ in a very disciplined type of environment and that’s all they know.     3:38 Alexis: Mhm.     3:39 Virginia: And that’s all I did.     3:44 Alexis: Ok, so after high school, what were some of your favorite high school hang out places?       3   �3:52 Virginia: In school, we didn’t have any. We were on the campus 24/7. When I’d come home from vacations, or whatever, it was just… I had a few friends and we’d just do what most kids did back at that time.     4:09 Alexis: Which was?     4:11 Virginia: Just riding bikes, hiking, playing. We didn’t have video games, hello!     4:19 Alexis: [laughter]     4:20 Virginia: [joins Alexis in laughter] That’s all we had. Just bikes and friends and just doing whatever kids did back then.     4:26 Alexis: Ok and what were your hang out places as you grew up? Like after 18. What it the same: similar or different?     4:35 Virginia: You mean in college?     4:37 Alexis: Mhm.     4:39 Virginia: Well, I was on the football team, on the gymnastics team, I worked three jobs going through college. So I didn’t hang out much, was pretty busy.     4:56 Alexis: So just tell me about some of your childhood friends.     5:03 Virginia: I had two that I specifically remember. One of them lived right down the street. He and I did everything kids did when I was home. Just riding bikes and playing and baseball and softball and whatever kids did. The other one lived kind of across the street from me and from what I understand they’re both deceased now. But you know, after I graduated from high school, went to college, we kinda lost touch and I didn’t have any real reason to go back.     5:45 Alexis: Ok, so do where did you go to college?     5:47 Virginia: Tennessee Technological University.     5:50 Alexis: That was a big difference from Virginia?     5:53 Virginia: [laughter] You take a kid from a disciplined military environment where you had obligations 24/7, to no obligations to do anything and it’s a big change.     6:10 Alexis: How’d you adjust?       4   �6:13 Virginia: Well, I almost flunked out of my first, the end of my second quarter cause I just…there was nobody there to tell you what to do. You just kinda did you own thing. And just, somewhere along the way it just clicks: “You can’t do this.” And the football coach got me aside and said, “You know, you’re gonna flunk out if you don’t get your act together. And we’re gonna give you a tutor.” And I knew the stuff, I just, I didn’t go to class, I didn’t study, it was like the spring had been compressed all 18 years and all of a sudden, it was free! But I don’t know about your college history but mine, I just… probably starting in the middle of my sophomore year, it clicked. I knew who to ask about which professors wanted what and how to get through. And my last two years I averaged about a 3.8/4.0 average because it started to make sense. Plus the fact that what I had wanted to do all my life was coming to fruition, which was be a naval aviator. And I talked to the recruiters and they kinda set me on a straight and narrow, too. “We’re not gonna take idiots! We’re not gonna put you in a multimillion dollar aircraft if you’re stupid.” [Laughter] You know? So that was part of the process.     7:49 Alexis: Ok so, did you stay in Tennessee in the summer?     7:56 Virginia: Oh yea, I was working three jobs. I worked in the athletic department, I was a lifeguard at the local pool for the students, so during the summers that’s what I did. I took a few courses during the summer and worked. Cause I didn’t have any money and that was the only source of income, what little bit of scholarships that I had, and the jobs that they gave me.     8:23 Alexis: Ok, describe what your grandparents thought about your childhood and into your adulthood? And were they supportive of your decisions? Like your grandparents, were they supportive of you going to school, college, and stuff?     8:43 Virginia: Well, no, not really, I don’t…I’ve got a very complicated history. Just, like, my real grandfather was killed in World War One. [pause] If you have time, I’m gonna tell you a quick story.     9:02 Alexis: Definitely.     9:04 Virginia: To me it’s interesting. Here was this 15 year old girl, she got pregnant. 15 years old. The guy that got her pregnant, my grandfather, he had a best friend. He goes to his best friend and says, “Let’s sign up and join the war effort!” This is World War One. And he made a pact with his friend, he said, “If I don’t come back,” he said, “I want you to marry…” you know, my grandmother. Well, I said he was killed in World War One. His friend did come back and did marry her. So that became my step-grandfather. Raised me like his own, they never had any children other than raising myself. They footed the bill for my going to the private schools. I did work through Fork Union as a waiter. So that helped defray a lot of the costs. But I waited on tables there a lot of the time. It never dawned on me it was that’s what I did, you know? I didn’t know how much money it provided, who it helped, whatever. I just, that was what I had to do and   5   �that’s what I did. So, when he passed away, she kinda lost it. They’d been married fifty years, forty years, I don’t know. Whatever. And as far as my processes after that, I don’t think she really ever got involved. I was funding my own college and I would come home and see her and stayed in the house but other than that, it was no involvement. She didn’t ask me about my grades or my friends or anything. She just… so anyway. Does that help? Confuse?     11:05 Alexis: No, not at all.     11:06 Virginia: Oh…well, I’m confused [laughter]     11:07 Alexis: haha!     11:08 Virginia: I’ll go back a little bit. My father, I got on ancestry.com and I found, if I’m taking too much time, you can stop me…     11:16 Alexis: Oh no.     11:17 Virginia: I got on ancestry.com two, three years ago. And looked up my matriarchal side of the family and was able to find my father, and one my earliest remembrances of transgender, cross-dressing, was done by my grandmother. Now get this, I couldn’t have been more than 6, 7 years old. She put me in a dress. I remember this just like it was yesterday, put me in a dress. And you may have never seen a picture. The old bonnets that women used to wear. She was half-Comanche. She lived in Texas in a house, swear to God I remember it like it was yesterday. She put me in that old, sack dress, a bonnet, gave me a handmade broom, and had me sweeping her floor. Honey, it was a dirt floor.     12:20 Alexis: [laughter]     12:22 Virginia: Seriously.     12:23 Alexis: Wow.     12:24 Virginia: And I could just picture myself back then, just like it was yesterday. I don’t know why, she was just the sweetest thing. Anyway, I found out my father had… she had seven, eight children. I still can’t find my grandfather on that site. His name is not listed in any of the records! It just lists her name and eight children and they were all considered laborers in Texas. Cowboys... [sighs] Having some fun now? Go ahead.     13:01 Alexis: Going back to, did you have any other experiences with your grandmother dressing you up? 13:06 Virginia: No.     6   �   13:07 Alexis: No?     13:08 Virginia: That’s the only one I remember. That’s the only time I ever saw her in my lifetime. Couldn’t have been more than a couple of days cause I was staying with my father. And my grandparents had driven us to Texas and rumor has it that they were trying to put me off on him and he didn’t want anything to do with me. So they ended up keeping me and drove back to Tennessee.     13:36 Alexis: What were some of the most difficult periods in your life and how did you deal with them?     13:50 Virginia: [long pause] Wow, I can’t answer that. I mean you would need to be a lot more specific. I mean, are you talking about in military school, military high school, college, adulthood? Because I’m unique and I assume it’s based on being in military school from the time I was 4 ½. I do my own thing. I didn’t have anybody to support me. It was either me or them and I decided it was gonna be me. So any difficulties that came up, I handled it. I didn’t have anybody to turn to, no shoulder to cry on. You just put on your big girl panties and do your thing.     14:40 Alexis: If I had to specify, college.     14:43 Virginia: College. [pause] The most difficult?     14:47 Alexis: Yes, sorry.     14:49 Virginia: Ah, yeah well it was when I almost flunked out and sitting down and talking to myself, explaining to myself that, “You got into this school. Why are you flunking out?” And it dawned on me, I don’t go to class. You don’t do your homework. You think it’s a big party. It’s not, this is real. And once I got over that, and started figuring it out and getting some support from the head football coach and the Navy guys that I talked to. That’s what did it.     15:23 Alexis: Do you still have a close relationship with your head coach?     15:27 Virginia: Oh, he’s been deceased a long time. Honey you’re talking to an old broad, here. Most of the…I went back to Tech. Oh it’s been, I don’t know fifteen years ago, and all of the coaches and all of the people that would have had any influence on me had either retired and moved to Arizona or deceased, so…     15:55 Alexis: What about in adulthood? Most difficult period as an adult?     16:08 Virginia: [pause] I don’t consider it difficult. I just consider it a challenge, overcome it and move on.     7   �   16:15 Alexis: So, if you could think of one memorable challenge that just sticks within your mind, what would it be?     16:25 Virginia: It was very short lived. My second wife, who is now deceased, was at UVA and they had drilled three holes in her head and… [pause] I was coming back, I won’t forget, I was coming up Afton Mountain, know where that is? Between Charlottesville on [Interstate] 81 and it was like 3 o’clock in the morning and that was probably the most difficult. I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do. What was going on, how was I gonna be able to handle all of this? That was probably the most difficult, just, for that instance.     17:25 Alexis: So talk about your second wife. Can you tell me about your earliest relationship you would remember?     17:33 Virginia: Relationship?     17:34 Alexis: I guess your early relationships like dating wise and stuff.     17:40 Virginia: Ah! I decided… I would have to regress to the fact of my grandparents not being involved, my father, or my step-grandfather, was a civil engineer. And he recommended that I take some additional math courses while I was home for the summer. So Bristol High School, Bristol, Tennessee, had summer school and they checked it out and found some math courses that they thought I would be… it was advanced geometry and something else. Anyway, you know I thought “what the heck, I’ll do it.” So I went in and I’m sitting in the class, with probably 15 or 20 other kids, and I was sitting by the window. It was an “L” shaped building, and over in the other building I see this gorgeous girl. I mean her hair was down to her waist, and she waved back. And that was probably my first real relationship. I found out she just lived across the street from the high school and her family and her brother was a big basketball player and got a full scholarship to… is it Carson-Newman [University]? Anyway, that was, we were together for a while. Her parents were just the sweetest people. It was interesting, she ended up marrying another naval officer. [Laughs at the memory]     19:32 Alexis: Are you currently in a relationship? 19:34 Virginia: Yes.     19:36 Alexis: If you’re comfortable, tell me about this relationship.     19:42 Virginia: I met her, and she is—I don’t know what term you all would like to use—I call them “GGs,” genetic girl [a cisgender woman]. I met her through a support group on the internet and we just hit it off. And she’s fond of telling anybody that asks, she and I are on the same page. We are on a need to know basis. But her saying is, she’s   8   �got the best of both worlds. And well, she’s scary like a lot of GGs are. She knows what I’m going to say before I even say it. If I think about doing something, she’s already thought about doing it and it’s a skill that GGs evidently have. I haven’t quite evolved to that yet. But, we’re just like that.     20:58 Alexis: Regarding your sexuality, what is your sexuality preference of partners?     21:11 Virginia: Interesting question too, you know where that red phone is out there… [laughter]? One of your, and I call it a blessing to have what I was evidently born with... most... let me say that if you're gay, and most people see the word “gay” they assume male. They like other males, “lesbian” is female and they like other females, pretty cut and dry. But when you toss in the term... the terms transgender, cross-dresser, queer, searching, I just... the list just goes on. We live, we, myself, in an entirely different universe, that gays don't quite understand it, lesbians don't understand it, I don't know that they really care. Straights definitely don't understand it or a lot of them, they may not understand, they accept it. “That's just the way that person is…” Whatever. My philosophy or my theory of this whole thing is, that if you're in my universe, be it whatever you are, transgender, cross-dressing, I... that is the biggest problem that my universe has. “What are we?” And I guess this kinda gets to be a educational thing. I see it as a continual, okay? Just arch, and pardon my description but this kinda of just brings it down to what it is. On the front end you have the person and I'm going to address males. The male that puts on a pair of panties once a year, that's it. Why he does it? for the relief? Whatever. Then you have the person who puts them on twice a year, and then the person that dresses full and the one who dresses and puts on make-up. And you got this whole continuum, nobody's static on it, they all, you can transfer from one part to another. At the far end of the spectrum is the person that lives as female, twenty fourseven, but has had no surgeries, maybe they've had facial surgery, maybe they've had breast augmentation, they have not had SRS [sex reassignment surgery] because when they reach that point where they’ve reached SRS they've been on hormones, they've taken everything else. They are no longer to me considered male. They're female. So somewhere on that continuum each of us—and unbeknownst to probably 90% of them— you’re trying to find a balance in your life to live with this… I call it a gift, I wouldn't change who I am for anybody, it’s a gift. Now again you all are not to the point where you can psychoanalyze me. You can have your own opinions, but you're not. I am one of the fortunate few that has a balance, okay? You can call it split personality, you can call it some whatever medical psychological condition you want. When Virginia's Virginia she's Virginia. When her alter ego is out that's who he is and fortunately with the balance aspect, there is no conflict and that's the beauty of how I exist. One supports the other. If Virginia wants to get dressed and go to a movie or go out to eat, that's fine. If the alter ego—which I could give you some things which just might boggle your mind—but whatever he wants to do she supports it 110%. And that's where a lot of these people, and you read about it all the time, the suicides and   9   �everything that happens, they don't have that balance and it's sad, it's unfortunate but that's just the way it is. And if something like this can help those people find that balance and I've talked to a lot of [transgender] girls if you will in my position, you got to find that... “I'm trying, I'm trying, I can't find it, I just… I don’t want this, I want...” Sorry. I'm not a psychiatrist I can't help you. I can only tell you what should work and if that doesn't work for you... seek professional help. Does that help, I mean I just [chuckles]… I don't want to bore you…   26:35  Alexis: So how did you find this balance?     26:37 Virginia: I don't know, it's just comes with the territory.     26:42 Alexis: I guess my question is at what age is your first memory of when you started to identify as she or have some internal thinking, or something in the back of your head...?     26:55 Virginia: Again, it was like when my grandmother dressed me up, that was about [age] 6. Age 4 1/2 at that military school they put on a little play and I couldn't have been much... maybe 5 [years old] at the most. They put on a play and I will never forget the teacher’s name, and she's been dead for God who knows how long, Ms. Maxine, you don't have to bleep that out because she's [dead] [chuckles]. She took a couple of us back in the kindergarten room. Lipstick, make-up, a dress, some funny looking little shoes. I was to be a Gypsy girl. And again it was like it was yesterday... I can remember twirling and dancing across the stage in my part of the play. That was my first indoctrination into it.     28:02 Alexis: And how did you feel, do you remember the emotions?     28:06 Virginia: It felt like that's who I was.     28:10 Alexis: And you felt this way, well of course you felt this way, but when did you start the transition into out in the open presenting yourself as a she.     28:26 Virginia: [pause]  That's a... to go out in public, probably the mid-1990s. I mean it was always there. What brought it to fruition was this support group I was in, and a couple of the girls said “you know, we enjoy talking to you, but you need to clear your mind and go back in your history and look at what you've done that you're denying having done, intentionally or unintentionally.” That's a good idea. And I took a day and just turn off all radios all the noise and everything, and I got to thinking about it. And I’d go back and I thought of different things that had happened to me in that from 4 ½ [years old] to that point in time. And again, that's what gets a lot of these girls, if you will, into problems because they suppress it, they repress it, they deny it, they ignore it, it’s there. Not everybody, but a lot of guys have that... I see these, pardon my terminology, rednecks driving around in their pickup trucks with the big beard, the plaid shirts, the   10   �blue jeans. You know the gun rack in the back and I'm like what are they hiding, is it [chuckles] maybe they’re a female and they’re just at that point where they’re trying to repress it, deny it, ignore it... Fine. That's what you do. I mean it’s just... again I can't speak for anyone else other than what I've seen, but for me it’s always been there and partly because of that little aspect. And I'll tell you exactly what happened and again y'all can think I'm psycho. I don't really care because you don't sign my paycheck, but it’s one of my philosophies. You don't sign my paycheck I don't owe you nothing. Not a good attitude, but it works for me. I don't share this with too many people, but I'll do it. Like I say it was about 3 o'clock on, 3 o'clock in the morning I left her and they got tubes running out of her head and arms and whatever, and I'm trying to decide how I'm going to handle this... and just as sure as I'm driving up that mountain and I can almost picture exactly what happened, it was like this ghost, I don't know, sitting there next to it, said “honey, you have a problem... I got the solution.” I swear it was my mother, my grandmother, somebody. It’s where I got my name. My mother’s name was Virginia, my grandmother's name was Irene. I go by Virginia Irene, because again, they’re buried in Flintwood Cemetery in Bristol, Tennessee. And the second time I visited them, Virginia visited them, [I] was not using that name, I had chosen a different name. And I was dressed [as a woman], walked up to the headstones, and it was like something just washed over me that I thought “they're proud of their daughter and their granddaughter.” And to honor them, again it was like, I don't know how you describe it, but I see their names down there “Virginia,” “Irene”... why not?... That's where I chose the name from. Am I getting too weird for you, I'm just ... I mean you want know, I'm gonna tell you, I got nothing to hide in that aspect. So, that was later when coming up Afton Mountain and it was like just this entity, whatever, said “we're gonna work this thing together.” And since then, it’s been awhile formulating it, but women, GGs [cisgender women], so much stronger than men. You just, you have no idea. Maybe not physically, but emotionally, mentally, there's just no comparison. I'm not getting weird? Okay. Is that helping, I’m not…     33:26 Alexis: Yes, of course. So tell me about, I guess, how your relationships have changed when you made that final transition to be she out in public in the 1990s. Like how that changed your relationships with coworkers or with friends that you knew during that time?     33:45 Virginia: Well, I didn't have that many friends. Like I say, I got that balance and if Virginia's alter ego is out among his friends, that's who he is. They haven't got a clue cause I work on a need to know basis. If I know someone who needs to know about Virginia, then I don't mind telling them, or vice versa. I mean... y'all got to understand you know deep down I'm not, I've had nothing done. I’ve never taken hormones, I've had no surgery. I've been told I pass, whatever that means, in most instances. In other words a guy would say he sees a woman, and that doesn't bother me... that's not what I'm trying to do. I’m just who I am, and any genetic benefits I get from that I trace back to my mother   11   �and my grandmother. They were just drop-dead gorgeous, both of them. So, I mean, like I say I got that balance and if I come in a situation… I got a very good friend, that’s a lesbian, and she and I trained together. I’ll tell you this story because I am so proud of what happened. She and I trained together in an athletic event for many years. And her mother developed a disease which was similar to Alzheimer’s, but it’s not the same thing. And one day we were over at her garage which was set up as a training facility. And we were training. She knew, she knew that Virginia existed. She’d never seen her, but she knew. Because we talked about it, because she was a lesbian and she started dating a guy, then she went back, she was trying to find herself. We would go to athletic events and sleep in the same room, never touched each other, we were just the best of friends. And, she asked me one day, she said “we cannot accept the lady that’s taking care of my mother. She’s not doing the job we want done.” … she said “why don’t you do it?” I said “excuse me?” She says “you can do it.” And I said “don’t you think that she would rather have a woman taking care of her?” Brings tears to my eyes… [pause] She looked me straight in the face and she says “well you’re a woman, aren’t you?” Dead serious… the greatest compliment I have ever received. And I did start taking care of her mother for four years. I was holding her hand the day she died [Tears] I’ll tell you this quick story if you got time. Her husband, my training partner’s father, was a—I hate to use the term—[whispers] asshole. He didn’t care one way... As long he knew she was being taken care of, one way or another, he didn’t care. My current… my partner, she and I came up with this thing to take this woman to Richmond. She was wheel chair bound, she could not communicate. Now this woman had an IQ in excess of 160. She had taught advanced engineering at the University of West Virginia to engineering students. I mean this woman was brilliant. The disease she had was like a light switch, it was off, everything worked, but nothing would come out. She couldn’t talk, she couldn’t hardly move, anyway we [voice breaks] put her in her wheel chair, put her in the car. Asked her husband, of course, if we could take her to Richmond. He said I don’t care [voice breaks and tears]. We took her to Richmond. There was a private club in Richmond called Feldman’s, which no longer exists, which was gay and lesbian.1 But on Fridays once a month they would allow transgendered [persons] in. So, they were having their Ms. Feldman’s Contest. Betty had never seen Virginia. I think she understood, who knows? But I got dressed up in the motel room and came out and she looked at me. I could just see the look in her eye, “what the…?” But, hey, it’s too late now. I put her in her wheel chair and took her to dinner and I tried to feed her and of course she was like…. like this [indistinct body language]… and I talked to her for a while and she could hear and I know she knew what was going on, she just could not respond, poor thing. She’d have probably smacked my teeth out [chuckles]. I finally got her to eat, then she grew a little more accepting and finally she just… I was just another girl with her. So the three of us go to Feldman’s and I pushed her wheel chair right to the front row. We sat in the front row and all these entertainers came out, did                                                                                                                 1  A  reference  to  Godfrey’s?  Or  was  there  an  establishment  called  Feldman’s?   12     �their thing, and she was just smiling, just having a great… of course they come down and tease with her and everything, they didn’t know who she was. I don’t think they knew who I was. It was just a fantastic experience. Now, Virginia’s alter ego is who took care of her, because the husband would have freaked out. I mean, he would have just totally lost it, but that time [at Feldman’s] was cool.     40:18 Alexis: What time period was that, like in the year?     40:22 Virginia: 2003, probably from 2003 to 2007, because I took care of her for about four years, about 6 days a week.     40:39 Alexis: So going within Roanoke do you have any particular hangout spots or any affiliated support programs or groups that you….?     40:50 Virginia: I use to go to The Park, but god that music is just so loud. I’m good for maybe ten minutes, but that’s it. I know several of the girls that go there that are TG [transgender]… I’ll talk to them on Facebook once in a while, but if I want to go out, I’ll go out. We go …but the one concert I remember specifically was The Celtic Women, they came to town and had a concert. And my partner and I went to that. And, I got a nice compliment there too but I won’t go into that. [chuckles]     41:30 Alexis: What happened?     41:33 Virginia: Well…oh…[laughter] It sounds like I’m bragging, but hey, I mean it happened. We were sitting four rows, four seats in, and these two couples came in, and it was strange the two guys sat together and the two girls [sat together], and during the concert I just had to go to the bathroom, I just had to go. So I got up, you know, and you ease yourself out and I just [laughter] right in front of that little girl just before I stepped out the guys holler out, I swear, one those guys turned to me and he says “nice ass! yeah!” [laughter] I did have on a pretty tight skirt. Anyway [laughter]. No, I just do… you know, I go to movies, anything I want to do. Go shopping, dining out, whatever.     42:26 Alexis: So back to when—we kind of moved on—but what is your preference on your partners? The sexual orientation of your partners? Males? Females?     42:41 Virginia: In all honesty, I guess you can say I am bisexual. Not that I have.     42:51 Alexis: Have what?     42:52 Virginia: Thought about it. I mean having a relationship with a male or a relationship with a female or another TG [transgender person]. Sex is sex, if you’re treated the way that you present, like you want to be treated. Just back to the first thing… do unto other as… If they’re nice and you’re nice and everybody gets along and there’s   13   �no complications per se. Sex is sex, you both enjoy it, have at it. What are you grinning about? [laughter]     43:34 Alexis: Would you say you’re more attracted to the personality or the appearance?     43:40 Virginia: The personality. Appearance is gonna be the first thing you see, but once you get past that, you get to know somebody. Then if you’re comfortable with them and you know you want to go to bed with them and they want to go to bed with you. Always, tell them on the front end, “you realize I’m transgender?” “Oh man, that’s such a turn on…” Okay, as long as you understand on the front end. Cause that’s what gets a lot of these girls into trouble, and I don’t remember how many were killed last year. There’s already been five or six killed this year, and I’ll guarantee ya that 99% of them never told them [their sexual partners]. They get in the room or wherever they’re meeting up and the guy just goes berserk and that’s it. You got to tell them on the front end. I just feel so sorry for them. Does that answer the question a little bit?     44:40 Alexis: Yes. What important message would you wish to leave to others regarding sexuality?     44:50 Virginia: (Speaks slowly) Sexuality?     44:52 Alexis: How you interpret it?     44:58 Virginia: [pause] In the physical aspect it’s just like I say if you have somebody that you’re comfortable with and they’re comfortable with you, it makes no difference, male/female. Keep it in the human species please. [whispers] That was a joke [laughter].     45:17 Alexis: What would you like to see changed in the South Virginia/Western area in dealing with sexual orientation? What changes would you like to see?     45:35 Virginia: [pause] I’m a tell you a story. And I’m not casting dispersion…well I am casting dispersions on them. Have you got more questions about history?     45:50 Alexis: No.     45:53 Virginia: I was one of the original members, back in the early ‘90s, of a group called the Blue Ridge Society. I’m sorry it escapes me exactly how I met the young lady that started it. She lived in Lynchburg, but we had several meetings here in Roanoke where she would rent a suite at this nice hotel, I won’t say which one, and there would be six or eight of us who would show up and we just do what girls do. We just sit around and talk. A few of them had problems and stuff. That was, to the best of my knowledge, the first transgendered organization.   14   �We went to a Christmas party at one person’s house that had this gorgeous home out on the lake. Had to be in ‘95, Christmas of ‘95. And their wives were there and there were… it was just a conglomerate, but it was mostly for the Blue Ridge Society members. Probably six or eight of us would show up. The young lady that started it left the area. The company she was working for sold to another company and her skill level was such [that] they wanted to keep her, but wanted her transferred to another place, which she did. In the process the organization as it existed was turned over to moi. Again, somewhere along the line the name was changed to the Blue, what do you call it, the Blue Ridge Transgendered… whatever. And we would have meetings at my home and again, we’ll get eight or ten people to show up. We had a girl coming from Richmond, another one from West Virginia, another one from down in Charlotte. Again this was the internet, in its early stages, and we would communicate that way. A girl came from West Virginia, a very authoritarian type, nice girl, but you could tell she wanted to be more and more and more involved, and I finally just turned it over to her. I said “why don’t you take it over, because my job is such [that] I can’t be here for all these meetings we need to have.” She took it over, kept the name, began setting up meetings at local hotels and stuff instead of… in their ballrooms and stuff. [Laughter] One of the coolest things: we had a meeting on a Halloween evening at the Holiday Inn down there in Tanglewood…. Now I want you to picture this. You got a bunch of crossdressers, transgendered, whatever, dressed up. We had a nice meal. There were probably ten, fifteen of us. So the meals over and we talked business or whatever we were talking about. This had to be in 2000/2001, anyway. Let’s go to the bar and get a drink. Well three or four of them, “I got to get home,” and so the party breaks up and there were like eight of us left. So we go to the Holiday Inn, what’s it called, the Elephant Walk, I think is the name of that bar down there. Now remember this is Halloween evening on a Friday in October. You probably don’t keep up with this, but what happens on Halloween in October just south of here? Can you say NASCAR? Can you say Martinsville? [laughter] Here are these 6, 7, 8 of us, we just go charging into the bar, it was wall to wall…what’s the word… REDNECKS [laughter]. I mean, we had no problem at all, I mean there were some of us dancing with some of them [chuckles]. They were offering to buy us drinks [laughter]. Oh God, it was such a trip. But we had no problems it was just, here we are us just charging into this bar, with just wall to wall rednecks that were here for the NASCAR, Martinsville race [laughter] Good Times! I lost my train of thought, what were we talking about?     51:09 Alexis: What would you like to see changed…     51:12 Virginia: Oh yes.     51:14 Alexis: …regarding sexual orientation?     51:16 Virginia: Well the, within this area? Okay, the girl that took it over, after a couple of years was transferred to Texas. She tried to run it, the local organization, in Texas, but   15   �that didn’t work out. So, she eventually turned it over to the current administration, which runs the Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge Transgendered Society.2 And again, if you want to bleep this out that’s fine, I understand. Their website says that they have 311 members. Roanoke, Virginia. Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge Transgendered has 311 members. I asked Dr. Rosenthal at a meeting [of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project], I said “Trish and I are the only two here.” I said “They got 311 members and neither of us are members, why don’t they have a representative here? You would think out of 311 members they could come up with somebody that would show up?” There was a meeting at the UU [Unitarian Universalist] Church trying to get this group reorganized after the lady had moved to Texas and it was… [sighs] there was some difference of opinion and I won’t get into the gory details. But Trish is married, I’m in a relationship, the other couple that was there was in a relationship, both… this girl is amazing. She’s 72 – 73 years old, goes on a cruise, a 7-day cruise by herself as her alter ego. What kind of girl do that? But that’s where she’s coming from. Her wife is very accepting. She claims they are in an open relationship, whatever that [means]. The six of us, the only couples that were there, were ex-communicated, I don’t know any other word to use. We were thrown out, or asked to leave, because we were saying “here is what we need to do. This this this and this.” Trish had been involved in setting up an organization in Charlotte.3 Big organization, “we need to do this this this and this.” Transgendered association. “We’re not doing it that way, we don’t want to hear anymore from you, why don’t y’all just leave?” Basically what happens. “Screw you. We’re out of here.” So Trish and her wife and me and my partner get together quite often. We have dinners, go out to eat, go whatever. And we are just not involved with them anymore. Now, do you think there are 311 members in this area? All she’s done is taken her friends from Facebook and claim that they are members of this organization. I would venture to say you can count on three fingers the number of active members that she has. Her and two others. I can name them, but I’m not going to. And I… hey, do your thing, girl. Just don’t call us. I was having meetings at my home up in Bedford and we’d have 12, 15 girls show up. We’d have cook-outs up there, just had a great old time. And, that’s before she took it over. She does her own thing. I mean it’s all about her. You can bleep it out. It’s fact. At one of the Pride in the Park [events], they awarded her the most progressive member of the board type of thing. She gets up makes a ten-minute speech and never once mentioned anybody, it was all about her. “Well, I did this and I did that.” Trish and I were there and our mouths fell [open]. She offered nothing. “This person helped me do this, this person helped me do that. I’m so glad my group is up here, or we got a tent,” or nothing. It was all about her. “I did this, I did that, I helped so and so collect this, and I appreciate this award, and I’m so proud to have earned it. Just… thank you, on the up side she has done some good things. She’s done them on her own and taken full credit for                                                                                                                 2  Ladies  and  Gents  of  the  Blue  Ridge  –  Transgender  Alliance.   https://www.facebook.com/groups/LBRTA/     3  See  oral  history  interview  conducted  with  Trish  Valentine,  part  of  this  same  oral  history  project,  in   LGBTQ  History  Collection,  Virginia  Room,  Roanoke  Public  Library.   16     �every bit of it as her own. Which is fine, that’s her. Except Trish and I do our own thing… whatever [pause]     56:15 Alexis: Would you say…     56:17 Virginia: You want to bleep all that out, it’s fine. But it’s what’s happened. Rumor has it that she has claimed credit for setting up the organization. No, I can trace this back to the early ‘90s. The Blue Ridge Society is where it started, not with her in the mid[2000s]… 2005, 2006.     56:41 Alexis: So would you say that the difference, the falling out, was her personality or the goals that she had for the organization? Or what was the main factor?     56:52 Virginia: Personality. I mean it’s just all about her. The world revolves around her. The last I heard she is in the process of transitioning. She’s got two small children, they’re not small anymore. I don’t know what the status of it is because I don’t ask, I don’t want to know, I don’t care. I do my thing, I’ve got that balance.     57:20 Alexis: Okay, so this is basically a wild card. This is a chance to speak freely which you kinda already have, which is great, about your experiences and contribute to the LGBTQ community of history. So anything you would like to talk about. That you think is…?     57:39 Virginia: I’ve had some interesting experiences. Roanoke Pride put on a dance at what used to be the Sheraton, it’s changed names six times in the past few years [chuckles]. And a girl that I knew who I helped transition, that was probably one of the greatest events in my life. I was with her from the time she decided she was gonna transition. I was with her at the doctor for ten days. At the clinic when she had the operation. My name is the first person she asked for when she woke up after the operation. It was incredible. And that’s why… people just don’t understand. You want to choke them. We are who we are. Humans are so complex it’s just amazing. She was born to be a woman, she was a woman. She just had a piece of equipment that just didn’t work out and had it removed. But she and I are good friends and we went to this, I went to the meeting to find out. I stood up and asked them, I said “will you allow transgendered people there?” The vote was 6 to 4, 6 for and 4 against allowing transgendered [people] to come to this dance! So I say… “girl, you and Jack, we’re going,” so we showed up, but before that we got to talking we said, “what will you do if someone asked you to dance?” Now think about it, you go to a dance, a guy walks up and says you want to dance, you got two choices: yes or no. Ok, this was gays and lesbians! You’ve heard of gaydar, a date, I don’t care how good I look or how good Trish… they read you. Basically, “that’s a guy in a dress! I don’t care how good she looks. That’s a guy in a dress!” Lesbians don’t want anything to do with you. We both look good. We’re sittin there, I remember the guy’s name, [he] walked up and he said “Virginia, would you dance with me?” I came out of that chair like there was a spring under me [chuckles]. Now, let me tell you,   17   �those gay guys can charm your panties off. I mean he was a perfect gentleman, led me to the dance floor, danced and hold me, you know, just like a gentleman should. Dance was over, back to my chair, he pulled the chair out for me, you know, sat down. And it was just a totally unique experience. Just, and that’s one of the things that just reinforces it, for me, my balance. Virginia’s Virginia. She’s a woman. I could have said no, and I chose to dance with him. So that’s just the way that I am. Unfortunately most TGs [transgender persons] aren’t that way. They’re still struggling with who they are and how they have these feelings, everything. That would be the thing that I would want to leave is “try and find that balance, because if you don’t there are just too many horror stories out there.” And the guys that get caught, the wife comes home earlier, then catches them in a dress. The first word out of their mouth is, what do you think the first thing the wife asks when she catches him in makeup or whatever?     61:28 Alexis: Sorry?     61:33 Virginia: If you were married and you came home and your husband was wearing some of your clothes. What will be the first question you think you’d ask him?     61:41 Alexis: What are you doing?     61:43 Virginia: Well, you can see what he’s doing. The very first [question]…are you gay? That’s the very first thing. [laughter] And in 99% of the cases the first thing [the wife] either thinks or says is “Are you gay?” And then if they are willing to discuss it, and they don’t run screaming into the night, “are you going to transition?” So, you try and help people. Find that. I got a friend right now the wife caught him, dressed. And they’re still trying to work through it. It’s just, it’s something that girls just can’t get their mind around. I’ve got a daughter that knows. She’s never met Virginia, she doesn’t want to meet Virginia, she just, she accepts it to the point that she just can’t get her mind around it. And it’s like, it just doesn’t exist. My son, same thing. He’s never met Virginia, but as a doctor he told me, he said “if that’s your thing, have at it.” That’s the only thing that has ever been said. Now are we… I’ll tell you one other story. My second wife, when she found out, I told her “I don’t want you to tell anybody until I work through this.” And, it got screwed… anyway, she said “I want you to go talk to a psychiatrist, a psychologist.” I said “fine.” I walk in the guy’s office, I’m not dressed. He says—he came in, he got on a shirt and tie and coat—he says “well, what can we do for you today?” I just look at him and I say, “I’m transgendered, do you have a problem with that?” I said “I don’t know what you’re wearing under that shirt, you may have on a negligee.” So, we spent an hour together. I go back to my inlaw’s house and he’s a minister, okay? And they start in. They start quoting bible scriptures and how this is affecting this, and how that is affecting that. This goes on for 45 minutes. I didn’t say a word, just listened. Virginia wasn’t there, it was her alter ego. And they finished they said [laughter]—my mother in law was kind of the matriarch, she ran everything. She actually looked at me and said “you got anything to say?” I said   18   �“yeah,” “Well?” I said, “I need to ask you just one question.” I said “I’ve been married to your daughter for 26 years… “Yeah, so what?” I said “every Halloween, from day one, every Halloween,” and I pointed at my father-in-law, I said “what is he dressed up as?” Her eyes just like came right out of her head. He dresses up as a woman, full makeup, lipstick, purse, the dresses, the heels, everything. Goes to church like that, okay? for Halloween parties. And she says—and he’s just [laughter] sitting in his chair as she says, she’s pounding the table—“but that’s only once a year.” I looked her straight in the eyes and said “how many times does it take?” Never heard another word about it from them from then on.     65:52 Alexis: Did you ever have a discussion with them about….     65:56 Virginia: No…he died shortly thereafter of cancer. [pause] And I talked to her, my deceased wife, a couple of times about it. She didn’t want to talk about it. How many times does it take?     66:27 Alexis: I have another question. What do you think the prejudice or discrimination from cisgender [people], or lesbians, or gay people have against [the] transgender community? Where do you think it comes from?     66:40 Virginia: I think it’s no different than the straight community. They don’t understand it, they just don’t understand. I mean, I try… what in the few times it’s come up in discussion… Walk around this library, you see any two people that look alike? the same height, the same weight, same color hair? That’s outward. Why can’t those same differences be inward? We’re all different. We come from different backgrounds. Biology, right? What does the embryo start out as?     67:23 Alexis: Female.     67:24 Virginia: Female. So who’s to say that during those nine months that something doesn’t happen in there. Why do you got an IQ of 140 and I got an IQ of 80, and she’s got an IQ of 170. We’re all different. And our ability to react to things and see things, but yet a guy in a dress, “no, I can’t accept that, we got to go beat that person up or kill them” or whatever. It’s just sad.     68:00 Alexis: What would you say is your overall experience, like have you been affected by discrimination in this area?     68:10 Virginia: No, I haven’t. Because when Virginia goes out, that’s who people see. They see a woman doing what women do. Shopping, eating out, going to concerts, movies, just... The mind sees what it wants to see, I mean you if you’re standing on the corner and you look down the street and you see a good looking guy, you see a guy. It’s the same thing if a person’s standing on the corner and sees a woman, me, he sees a woman. Now, needless to say there are those—again, you get back into my universe   19   �where there is a problem with definitions. And I’ve got my own opinions. They aren’t carved in stone because this whole thing is so fluid. To me there is a difference between a cross dresser and somebody that’s transgender. Transgender is emotional, internal. Cross dressers, it’s some type of sexual release that they put this stuff on and they have their thing and they’re done. And they might not do it again for another week, month, year, you’re the only who knows. And then you get, like you said, cisgender, transsexual. The terminology just goes on and on. It’s not like “you’re gay or you’re a lesbian,” it’s just a totally different universe. Me, as I told you upfront, mine’s a need to know. Okay, my doctor doesn’t know I’m transgender. Why should I tell him? What difference does it make? Trish on the other hand, she’s told her doctor she’s transgender. The doctor said it’s great, they don’t care. I don’t want to drag this out…     70:14 Alexis: Oh no, not at all.     70:20 Virginia: [showing photograph?] That’s my alter ego. He was the first person in the United States to bench-press over 400 lbs in his age and weight category. He’s won seven world powerlifting titles. Not Virginia, not in the United States, world. And that’s where the balance comes in. Virginia supports him 110%, but it’s him doing it not Virginia. When Virginia is in this room that’s Virginia. He is kind of her protector. That’s where I’m coming from.     71:21 Alexis: So, how often, let’s just say, within a given week are you either Virginia or your alter ego?     71:32 Virginia: There’s no… the balance is there. I mean, Virginia might be three or four times a week. Go out to eat, just get dressed and walk around the house, you know whatever she wants to do. Right now, he’s training for a meet March 12th down in Gatlinburg [Tennessee]. That’s four days a week, but that’s only like three hours a day. The rest of the time it just took early retirement because I could take early retirement and I just do whatever I want to do.     72:03 Alexis: So you see there is enough fluid transition between…     72:06 Virginia: Oh yeah. They totally support each other. That’s what everybody in my universe should seek. And that’s where, like I said, most of them never find it and that’s why you run into the problems. Suicides, and murders, and everything else, it’s just sad.     72:31 Alexis: Do you believe that transgender people, like you were saying before, how they have their… how they believe that they’re she, but then they are trying to suppress their alter egos. Is that what you’re saying? I’m just trying to understand.     72:47 Virginia: They don’t understand it. They wake up one day and say “oh, I’ve just got to put on a dress. I just, I got to do it. I got to put on my wig and stuff.” They look in the mirror and they see who they see. I call it Virginia’s challenge and I’ve told several of   20   �them to do it. And, you got to get dressed, fully dressed, makeup, everything. Then totally quiet, nothing around, no noise. No background music, nothing. You’ve got to stand in front of a full-length mirror and if you’re not ready to do this, don’t do it. Because it’ll screw you up if don’t. You stand in front of that mirror and you look at that person in the mirror and you do not, you do not, look at how pretty she is. Her make-up, her lipstick, if it matches her dress or nail polish. I say, you look at her eyes. You look into her soul. What do you see? Then you have to ask yourself, what are you willing to give up or do for that person. I say don’t do it if you’re not ready. Because if you’re ready you’ll find the answer. Are you willing to do this and go to your spouse and say, “I’m transgendered, deal with it.” Or are you going to continue to hide and hope you don’t get caught. Sneak around in the shadows, so to speak. [showing a photograph] Let me show you real quick. This is us, this is us in Las Vegas. We had a commitment ceremony. That was so cool. We got a dress like that, the limousine pulls up in front of the hotel, we go out and get in the limousine, go to this chapel. That was our wedding party.     75:06 Alexis: Wow.     75:10 Virginia: It’s all real. [laughter] Again, I’ll tell you straight, I’m going to do my thing. And, that’s who I am. I’m sorry that Trish and I could make some big end roads in this area, but there is only the one organization and I am not going to corrupt it from what it is. If we are asked or if the current administration decides to leave and they want us to come back and join. More than happy to. But, at this juncture, no. And I haven’t looked at these things in a while. There was a picture. You all can tell me, if I can find it. [Flipping through pages] It was a picture taken at Roanoke Pride [the Pride in the Park festival] one summer. That party was… it sounds like I’m bragging I don’t want to tell you.     76:34 Alexis: What?     76:36 Virginia: Here it is. These two wives came up to me. She says “you know, we’ve been talking about you.” “Oh really?” She says “yes,” these are her exact words, “we’ve decided that its bitches like you that make us have to work so hard to look good.” [looking at another photograph] There’s my friend that had the transition. That’s her, that’s me, at the dinner/dance. Alright, I don’t know if that’s a picture that they would want.4 But you know who that is. That’s Trish. This girl is in a mental institution in California. Her girlfriend is right here, they used to come to a lot of our meetings, she’s deceased. Her parents won’t say what she died from, but they were both teachers, instructors at Virginia Tech. This one just, she left her job and moved to California, and she was what do you call it….couch hopping. Where you just call somebody up and say “I don’t have a place to stay, can I sleep on your couch?” And she’d stay as long as they’d let her and then she would move on to the next one. And last we heard she’s in a mental institution. I don’t know if you met her [pointing to someone else], you know her?                                                                                                                 4  She  is  referring  to  the  LGBTQ  History  Collection,  Virginia  Room,  Roanoke  Public  Library.   21     �Okay good, this one needs to be in a mental institution, some people say, but we won’t [laughter]. Now, as far as signing a release from that, would you…? I mean, she’s no problem, Trish is no problem, I’m no problem. The other two, one’s deceased and the other is in a mental institution, so you’re not going to get their signatures. But, this was the picture from Pride in the Park and the Ladies of the Blue Ridge organization. Do you think they want that picture? [Alexis: Yes, of course] That was me at that Christmas Party….. “bitches like you make us have to work hard to look good…” [chuckles] That girl is deceased. Here, y’all do what you want.     79:25 Alexis: Do you have any lasting words before we end this interview session?     79:31 Virginia: I just hope I didn’t waste your time and I hope I didn’t take up too much of it. And I wish you girls the best in your future endeavors and I appreciate you having the intestinal fortitude to do this.     79:49 Alexis: Thank you so much for taking your time out to let us interview you.     79:53 Virginia: I enjoyed and I hope I didn’t bore you [Alexis: Not at all] or scare you. There are other things about me that probably would. END.                           22   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Virginia Lindsey Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Virginia Lindsey Interviewer: Alexis Rixner Interviewee: Virginia Lindsey Date: 25 February 2016 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 221 College Lane, Salem, VA Total Duration : 80:04 Transcription prepared by: Sabrina McIntyre Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LindseyVirginia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Virginia Lindsey; Alexis Rixner; Sabrina McIntyre https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2615/O_Donnell_Kim_[compressed].mp3 fd20e64c0bfa3aa8e3fe06e9c2c76594 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2615/O_Donnell_Kim.pdf 91dfa51c5d3707870045328d629e41a7 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Kim  O’Donnell   February  25,  2016       Interviewers:  Caitlyn  Allen  and  Madison  Kunstman   Interviewee:  Kim  O’Donnell   Date:  February  25,  2016   Location:  unknown     Transcription  prepared  by:  Will  Lucas     Total:  77:42     0:00  =  childhood  in  Fort  Lauderdale,  Florida   1:40  =  moving  to  Floyd,  Virginia,  and  attending  Floyd  County  High  School  (1970s?)   2:48  =  attending  Mary  Baldwin  College,  an  all  women’s  college   4:48  =  attending  law  school  at  the  University  of  Richmond   6:05  =  becoming  the  first  openly  gay  judge  in  Virginia  (at  age  34)   12:00  =  experiencing  sexual  assault  by  two  female  teachers  at  Floyd  County  High  School   18:24  =  being  a  teenage  lesbian  in  Floyd,  Virginia,  versus  in  Florida   21:24  =  reflecting  on  the  U.S.  Supreme  Court’s  2015  marriage  equality  decision   23:08  =  about  Floyd  PFLAG,  the  work  of  Jim  Best,  and  what  kind  of  community  Floyd  is   31:39  =  on  the  importance  of  being  one’s  authentic  self   34:57  =  advice  for  parents  of  LGBTQ  children   37:37  =  how  things  have  gotten  easier  (but  also  harder)  over  time  for  gay  people   43:33  =  how  to  end  bullying  in  Floyd  County  High  School     1   �45:50  =  fearing  discrimination  in  the  judicial  reappointment  system  in  Virginia   49:04  =  Old  Floyd  versus  New  Floyd,  and  differing  levels  of  acceptance  of  homosexuality   52:29  =  recounting  her  travels  in  Nepal  in  2014   56:51  =  gay  tourism  in  the  United  States   59:39  =  on  the  importance  of  travel  for  expanding  one’s  worldview   1:02:44  =  the  story  of  a  hermaphroditic  friend,  and  their  struggles  for  acceptance   1:06:45  =  healing  the  wounds  from  childhood  trauma   1:09:31  =  relationship  advice;  and  thoughts  on  why  many  same-­‐sex  couples  struggle  to  have  long-­‐term   relationships         0.02  KA-­‐  My  name  is  Kaitlyn  Allen  and  I  am  here  interviewing  Kim  O’Donnell.  So  Kim  can  you  tell  us  what   it  was  like  growing  up  in  Fort  Lauderdale,  Florida?       0.12  KO-­‐  Very  different  from  growing  up  in  Floyd,  for  sure.  Florida  just  geographically,  it’s  very  different,   it’s  densely  populated.  So  there  are  a  lot  of  people,  neighbors  right  next  to  you.  The  population  density   was  one  of  the  biggest  differences  between  the  two  places.  The  town  that  I  grew  up  in  was  a  beach   town,  so  pretty  loosey-­‐goosy  in  a  lot  of  ways,  a  lot  of  drug  use,  kids  just…  really  different.  I  hadn’t  even   thought  about  Florida,  I  thought  we  were  talking  about  Virginia.  I  had  a  very  difficult  high  school   experience  in  both  places.  I  attended  high  schools  in  both  places.  Growing  up  in  Florida  as  a  younger   child,  you  would  be  outside  all  the  time.  In  those  day  parents  were  not  as  concerned  about  someone   stealing  you,  so  I  was  on  my  bike  outside  all  the  time  and  someone  from  our  local  rec,  community  rec   [recreation]  program  would  come  to  us  and  our  neighborhood  and  we  would  play  football,  and  have   outdoor  games.  I  was  pretty  much  outside  my  whole  childhood  really.   1.40  KA-­‐  So  then  what  was  it  like  for  you  transiting  to  Floyd?   1.45  KO-­‐  It  was  wonderful  because  the  Floyd  community  was  much  tighter  and  closer.  When  you’re   involved  in  athletics,  you  have  a  built-­‐in  community.  So  I  started,  actually,  becoming  a  real  athlete,  in  the   sense  of  organized  sports,  in  Floyd  in  the  8th  grade.  I  loved  that,  I  loved  that  sense  of  comradery.  So  I  had   some  really  good  close  relationship  with  people  in  Floyd.  Academically  it  was  really  different,  I  have  to   say  the  academics  at  Floyd  County  High  School  were  not  great.  The  academics  in  the  school  I  went  to  in   Florida  were  better,  it  was  a  bigger  school.  They  had  advance  placement  classes.  In  the  ‘70s  Floyd  didn’t   have  any  of  that.  So  a  stronger  sense  of  community  in  Virginia  in  Floyd  County,  but  the  academics   weren’t  as  good.     2.41  KA-­‐  Great,  so  what  was  it  like  when  you  went  to  an  all-­‐girls  college  in  Virginia?  What  was  that  like?     2   �2.48  KO-­‐  Unbelievably  fantastic!  I  hadn’t  intended  to  do  that,  actually  my  plan  was  to  attend  the   University  of  Virginia  on  a  basketball  scholarship.  I  was  actually  a  very  good  basketball  player,  and  then   had  been  recruited  by  them.  I  was  still  an  out-­‐of-­‐state  student.  I  moved  back  and  forth  from  Virginia  to   Florida  during  my  high  school  years  for  reasons  we  may  talk  about  or  we  may  not.  So  I  ended  up  having   a  motorcycle  accident  the  summer  before  my  senior  year  of  high  school,  and  it  completely  derailed  any   athletic  career  I  had.  I  had  put  all  of  my  hopes  in  the  University  of  Virginia,  and  would  have  gone  there,   had  I  not  had  my  accident.  But  when  that  happened  they  were  no  longer  interested  of  course.  I  was  an   out-­‐of-­‐state  student,  so  I  didn’t  have  priority  status  as  an  athlete.  I  didn’t  get  in.  I  was  completely   surprised  because  I  had  great  grades,  but  I  didn’t  standardize  test  well.  So  about  the  same  time  the   University  of  Virginia  said  no  to  me,  Mary  Baldwin  College,  believe  it  or  not,  was  in  Florida  recruiting  and   I  went  there  sight  unseen  and  I  loved  it!  For  me,  because  I  felt  sort  of  out  of  place  anyway  as  a  lesbian,  I   never  considered  a  women’s  college,  but  it  was  a  gift  for  me.  Because  when  it’s  all  women,  the  women   are  the  ones  who  have  to  be  leaders,  they  are  the  ones  that  have  to  take  ownership  of  what’s   happening  on  campus,  and  there  was  no  competition  with  guys.  Which  was  really  good  for  me,  because   I  really  needed  that  spark  of  encouragement.  In  terms  of  my  own  sexuality  I  think  I  would  have  felt  very   much  like  an  outsider,  if  I  had  gone  to  a  co-­‐educational  school  at  that  time.  Totally  different  for  me  now   in  my  life  but  that  time  I  just  would  have  really  felt  like  I  didn’t  belong.     4.48  KA-­‐  Wow!  So  then  you  went  to  University  of  Richmond  after  Mary  Baldwin  for  your  law  degree.  So   was  that  different  from  Mary  Baldwin?   5.00  KO-­‐  Oh  yea!  Very  different,  I  hated  it.  It  wasn’t  because  it  was  co-­‐educational—besides  from  high   school  it  was  my  first  co-­‐educational  experience.  That  part  of  it  was  fine,  it  was  just  an  extremely   competitive  atmosphere,  and  I  didn’t  like  it.  I  became  a  lawyer  because  I  wanted  to  help  people,  or  at   least  I  went  to  law  school  with  that  idea  that  I  wanted  to  help  people.  I  didn’t  know  how.  And  nothing   about  law  school  was  about  helping  people.  It  was  really  about  creating  that  litigious  brain,  of  how  you   can  argue  both  sides.  It  was  just  really,  really  challenging,  humiliating  actually  in  some  respects.  Because   it  was  so  competitive  and  I  just  didn’t  like  it  at  all.  I  had  a  pretty  significant  crisis  of  identity,  like  “why  did   I  do  this?  This  is  not  what  I  had  I  mind  at  all.”  The  school  itself  was  lovely,  and  I  made  some  great  friends   and  really  good  people.  But  I  didn’t  like  the  academic  atmosphere  at  all.   6.05  KA-­‐  So,  what  was  it  like  to  be  the  first  openly  gay  judge  in  Virginia.  What  was  that  like  for  you?   6.15  KO-­‐  It  was  challenging,  actually,  in  the  beginning.  I  had  been  openly  gay  my  whole  career,  and  when   I  decided,  when  I  was  very  young,  I  decided  to  try  to  become  a  judge.  And  I  remember  sitting  in  my   office,  kind  of  closing  the  door,  and  thinking  “okay.”  I  was  open,  but  I  just  didn’t  talk  about  my  life,  I   didn’t  hide  it,  but  you  know  everyone  is  talking  about  what  they  did  for  the  weekend,  you  just  don’t   really  participate.  Because  you’re  not  really  wanting  to  use  gender.  So  people  closest  to  me  knew,  it   wasn’t  like  it  was  a  secret,  I  just  didn’t  talk  about  it.  When  I  decided  I  was  going  to  try  to  become  a  judge   I  had  the  awareness  that  this  could  prevent  me  from  doing  what  I  wanted  to  do,  and  I  didn’t  know   whether  it  would  be  well  known.  I  was  scared,  actually,  and  I  went  through  the  process  the  first  time   when  I  was  only  thirty  [years  old].  I  wasn’t  selected  to  become  a  judge.  It  never  came  up,  no  one  asked   me,  it  wasn’t  mentioned,  and  after  it  was  over  I  was  relieved.  A  friend  of  mine  who  was  working  for  a   very  prominent  senator  at  the  time,  who  I  saw  after  the  whole  process,  and  I  said  “Joyce,  I’m  so  relived,   it  didn’t  come  up.”  And  she  said,  “it  absolutely  did  come  up!”  I  was  like  “okay,  alright.”  “It  was  discussed,   it  was  on  the  table  with  everybody  who  was  considering  your  appointment,  but  it  wasn’t  the  obstacle     3   �that  kept  you  from  becoming  a  judge.”  So  I  felt  really  gratified  by  that.  So  it  didn’t  prevent  me  from   becoming  a  judge.  Sometimes  you  have  to  go  through  the  process  a  number  of  times,  before  you  are   selected.  I  was  selected  at  thirty-­‐four  [years  old],  and  there  were  no  openly  gay  judges.     I  was  at  a  judicial  training.  Shortly  after  I  became  a  judge,  believe  it  or  not,  all  of  the  judges  in  Virginia  at   my  level,  which  is  the  general  district  level,  hundreds  of  us  gathered  together  for  a  conference  which  is   required  every  year.  The  Supreme  Court  who  trains  all  the  judges,  wanted  to  focus  on  diversity   education.  It’s  a  hard  thing  to  do.    Most  of  the  judges  at  that  time  were  white  men,  so  we  were  in  this   big  huge  room,  with  a  group  of  grown-­‐up  people  playing  diversity  BINGO.  Do  you  know  what  that  is?  So   you  have  a  BINGO  card,  and  in  each  of  the  squares  it  says  I’ve  been  on  public  assistance,  I’m  gay  or   lesbian,  I  drive  a  red  truck,  all  these  different  identifiers,  and  the  goal  is  to  walk  around  the  room,  and   get  BINGO.  So  one  of  the  things  was  I’m  gay.  It  was  the  first  time  I  publicly  said  to  someone  “yea.”  The   opportunities  weren’t  there  very  often.  I  was  a  little  nervous,  nobody  said  anything.  That’s  the  thing   about  being  in  the  south.  People  don’t  say  much  to  your  face.  They  are  going  to  be  polite  and  respectful,   but  afterwords  a  very  dear  friend  of  mine,  who  was  a  staff  person  and  did  all  the  training  for  judges,  was   telling  her  the  story  and  really  really  unfortunately,  her  reaction  was  “Oh  my  god,  you  didn’t  really  do   that?”  Instead  of  “way  to  go,  I’m  so  glad  you  took  that  step!”  She  was  really  afraid  for  me.     I  took  my  partners  with  me  to  all  the  judicial  conferences.  I  didn’t  keep  people  at  home  and  out  of  sight,   but  nobody  really  talked  about  it.  Mostly  it  was  just  lonely,  because  my  colleagues  were  terrific.  I   worked  in  Richmond,  there  were  five  of  us  on  the  bench,  there’s  four  now.  There  were  five  of  us  on  the   bench  so  I  had  people  that  I  worked  with  who  were  supportive,  but  it  wasn’t  something  that...  There   wasn’t  anybody  else.  There  was  not  a  single  other  openly  gay  judge  in  Virginia  that  I  could  even  talk  to.   And  the  loneliness.  Frankly  people  don’t  think  about  this,  it’s  a  really  lonely  job.  Actually  because  so   much  of  what  you  do  is  in  isolation,  by  yourself,  you  make  decisions  alone.  But  worse  than,  the  hardest   most  isolating  piece  was  not  just  being  a  lesbian,  having  no  other  compatriots,  but  was  really  being  a   woman  in  man’s  arena.  It  was  completely  a  man’s  arena  then  and  it  just  didn’t  resonate  with  me  that   way.     12.00  KA-­‐So  when  you  came  into  awareness  of  your  sexuality,  it  was  still  considered  a  mental  disease.   12.07  KO-­‐It  was.     12.08  KA-­‐So  did  you  tell  your  family  and  friends  about  this?   12.09  KO-­‐No   12.10  KA-­‐What  was  their  reaction?   12.11  KO-­‐  It’s  very  interesting,  I  had  a  very  unusual  experience  of  coming  out,  I  never  did.  I  think  there   was  only  one  person  in  my  life,  a  male  judge  that  was  a  colleague  of  mine,  who  had  a  crush  on  me  and  I   knew  I  had  to  tell  him.  I  just  had  to  say,  but  other  than  that  I  do  think  I  ever  had  that  experience.  My   situation  was  really  different  and  traumatic  in  different  ways.  So  I  didn’t  even  know  that  I  was  a  lesbian   or  what  the  word  meant.  My  first  relationship,  and  it’s  not  even  the  right  word,  my  first  experience  with   a  woman  was  actually  with  a  teacher.  It  was  really  fucked  up,  that’s  just  the  truth,  it  was  really  fucked   up.  This  was  in  Floyd  County,  not  my  instigation  at  all,  and  so  that  happened  in  the  10th  grade  with  a   woman  teacher.  And  my  mother  found  out  about  it  and  removed  me  from  Floyd  County  High  School.   And  that’s  when  we  went  back  to  Florida.       4   �My  first  even  thought  about  it  came  when  my  mother  intercepted  some  communication  between  me   and  this  teacher,  who  was  stupid  enough  to  send  mail  to  my  home.  And  confronted  me  and  said,  “Are   you  a  lesbian?”  I  was  like  “I  have  no  idea,  never  even  heard  the  word.”  Don’t  like  it,  to  this  day  to  tell   you  the  truth,  because  of  that  experience,  because  I  knew  that  I  really  wanted  to  say  “no.”  It  wasn’t  a   “yes”  that  you  wanted  to  give  and  I  just  couldn’t  even  respond.  So  it  was  traumatic,  really  traumatic  and   my  parents,  my  mother  was  freaked  out.  She  had  no  idea  what  to  do.  So  I  was  sent  to  a  psychiatrist  who   was  doing  his  job  because  it  was  a  mental  illness  and  I  did  not  go  very  often,  just  not  many  times.  It  was   not  helpful  for  me.  I’m  very  fortunate,  I’m  one  of  the  few  people  that  I  know  who  for  whatever  reason,  I   personally  didn’t  have  guilt  and  shame  about  it.  I  knew  the  rest  of  the  world  was  uncomfortable.  I  knew   my  parents  were  ashamed,  but  I  never  felt  like  something  was  wrong  with  me.  I  just  know  where  I  could   talk  about  it  and  where  I  couldn’t.  Then  I  came  back  to  Floyd  County  High  School….  Still,  forty  years  later,   I  don’t  have  the  word  to  accurately  say  what  it  was.  They  weren’t  relationships…  I  was  molested,   accosted,  I  don’t  know,  by  another  teacher,  another  female  teacher.  So  twice  that  happened  to  me  and   was  immediately  moved  from  Floyd  County  High  School  then.     So  there  was  lot  of  really  weird  stuff  around  it  and  like  I  said  I  didn’t  come  out,  my  mother  told  me  and  I   know  that  it  was  true  and  it  took  me  a  lot  of  years.  And  probably  being  in  a  safe  college  environment.   And  women’s  schools  probably  don’t  have  any  more  lesbians  that  anybody  else.  But  we  had  some.  I  felt   like  I  wasn’t  completely  alone.  But  it  was  strange.  Traumatic.  Very  difficult.  Not  many  people  know  this   story,  for  me  there  was  much  isolation  because  I  couldn’t  tell  anybody.  Who  do  you  tell  about  that?  So   the  only  hesitancy  I  had,  I  almost  didn’t  put  my  name  [for  this  oral  history  recording],  but  I’ve  carried   this  secret  for  long  enough.  What  if  someone  reads  this  and  they  know  who  these  people  were?  In  this   day  and  age  they  would  have  done  to  jail.  I  don’t  need  to  protect  them.  I  don’t  need  to  name  the  names,   but  I  don’t  need  to  protect  them  either.  So,  yeah,  different.  But  it  saved  me  from  having  to  have  that   “mom,  dad,  guess  what?”  Didn’t  have  to  do  that.   17.02  KA-­‐That’s  crazy.     17.03  KO-­‐  It  is  crazy,  two  teachers,  what  is  in  the  water  in  Floyd  County?  I’m  serious,  like  really?  But  at   that  age  the  thing  that  screws  you  up  is—and  this  is  the  thing  about  power  dynamics  and  relationships   that  are  out  of  balance  like  that,  especially  at  that  age,  your  formative  experiences  with  sexuality—but  it   really  messes  up  your…  and  I  didn’t  even  realize  how  it  messed  me  up  because  you  had  this  sense  that   you’re  special,  right?  Your  teacher  likes  you  and  there  is  the  whole  weird  thing  that  happens  and  there  is   nothing  about  it  that  is  normal  or  right.  But  part  of  my  experience  was  that  I  had  nobody  to  talk  to.  My   parents  were  not  sympathetic,  they  were  not.  My  mother  just  didn’t  have  the  capacity  emotionally  to   comfort  me.  So  there  was  nobody  who  said  “wow,  this  sucks,  this  is  not  your  fault,  this  is  not  the  way  it   is  supposed  to  be,  this  is  not  the  way  everybody  is.”  If  I  had  had  an  intervention,  a  caring  parent,  maybe   in  a  different  time,  who  was  able  to  support  me.  It  might  have  been  different.  It  might  not  have  messed   up  my  interpersonal  relationships  so  much,  but  that’s  the  way  it  was.     18.24  KA-­‐So  you  said  that  you  went  between  Floyd  and  Florida,  did  you  notice  a  difference?  Was  there  a   dichotomy  between  the  two  places?   18.33  KO-­‐  In  what  ways?  In  terms  of  sexuality  or  the  acceptance  or  the…?   18.41  KA-­‐I  would  say  sort  of  a  little  bit  of  both  the  acceptance  and  sexuality,  would  you  say  that  there   was  a  difference  between  the  two  or  was  it  really  just…  ?     5   �19.48  KO-­‐Not  so  much.  It  was  just  a  different  time.  Nobody  talked  about  homosexuality.  I  didn’t  even   know  really  what  it  was  and  how  did  you  find  people  that  were  like  you?  At  that  time,  I  think  a  lot  of  girls   were  certainly  very  boyish  and  tomboyish.  It  was  so  confusing  that  maybe  you  felt  more  comfortable   dressing  in  a  certain  way,  so  you  identified  people  by  their…  girls  that  were  more  masculine,  you  said   “Oh  maybe  she’s  likes  me.”  But  there  really  wasn’t  much  acceptance  for  it  at  all.  Because  my  mother   was  aware  and  had  sort  of  an  antenna  on  and  every  friendship  that  I  had  was  really  scrutinized.  One  of   my  best  friends  in  high  school  in  Florida,  who  is  also  a  lesbian,  didn’t  have  a  relationship  with  her,  we   were  just  really  friends.  When  my  mother  found  out  that  we  were  friends,  we  were  forbidden  to  have   any  contact  at  our  high  school.  Our  teachers  would  watch.  That  didn’t  happen  in  Floyd.  But  there  I  was   accosted  by  two  teachers.  It  wasn’t  something  anybody  discussed  or  talked  about.  It  was  very   underground.  When  I  was  in  high  school,  in  fact,  it  was  older  people  that  we  kind  of  connected  with.  So   the  teachers  in  Floyd  were  the  same  way.  In  Florida  you  just  kind  of  found  each  other  and  there  were   older  people  who  would  tell  you  where  to  go  and  there  were  gay  bars  that  never  checked  IDs  where  you   could  go.  They  were  seedy,  shady,  dark  places,  but  at  least  you  weren’t  alone.  So  both  places  there   wasn’t  the  same  kind  of  culture  here  [in  Floyd].  You  know,  in  Florida,  there  were  a  number  of  gay  bars,   mostly  the  nicer  ones  were  always  for  men.  So  you  had  access  to  more  things  outside  the  mainstream   than  you  did  in  Floyd.  They  still  don’t  talk  about  it  [in  Floyd].  Jim’s  making  them  talk  about  it,  but  it’s  not   something  they  are  comfortable  with  even  today.1   21.24  KA-­‐So  I  know  that  you  are  getting  married  soon,  congratulations.  So  in  2015  the  marriage  equality   decision  was  reached  by  the  Supreme  Court,  a  huge  win  for  gay  rights.  So  what  was  your  reaction  to   this?   21.37  KO-­‐  Shock!  Shock.  Never  expected  it  to  happen  in  my  lifetime,  and  that  it  was  interesting.  You   know  I  was  so  used  to  not  thinking  of  it  as  a  possibility,  that  it  wasn’t  even  in  my  radar  screen.  I  assumed   because  we  couldn’t  do  it,  that  there  were  a  lot  of  benefits  to  it.  When  it  became  possible  for  us  to  get   married—my  partner  Anita  and  I  have  been  together  for  ten  years—I  thought  it  would  be  an  automatic   like  “of  course  we  will  do  this.  There’s  no  question  about  us  being  committed.”  Then  it  turned  into  this   really  different  kind  of  conversation  of  “Okay,  what  are  the  pros  and  cons?”  Just  because  we  can  doesn’t   mean  we  should,  and  I  realized  that  you  know  there  are  some  negatives  to  it.  Then  it  turned  into  more   of  a  financial  conversation.  Which  I  really  hated.  I  did.  I  was  like  this  is  not  a  financial  decision.  It  was   wonderful,  everyone  should  have  the  right  to  do  it,  but  it  doesn’t  mean  that  everyone  should  or  will   want  to.  I  mean  marriage,  all  people  are  getting  married  less  I  think.  I’ve  also  seen  how  different  it  is.  It   is  a  different  kind  of  commitment.  It  feels  really  different  to  me.  I’m  thrilled  that  people  have  that   choice,  and  really  excited.   23.08  KA-­‐Great.  So  now  you’re  currently  living  in  Floyd  and  we  are  working  with  another  partner  of   yours  [there  in  Floyd],  Jim  Best.  He  is  working  to  bring  the  conversation  out  in  Floyd  about  LGBTQ+   relationships.  So  what  do  you  think  of  the  whole  movement  in  Floyd?   23.32  KO-­‐Yea,  I  think  it’s  amazing.  Jim  is  carrying  on  work  that  other  people  started.  When  I  came  to   Floyd,  I  had  some  fear  about  coming  back.  I  came  back  to  care  for  my  mother.  In  2007,  I  quit  my  job  and   came  home  to  care  for  her.  Most  of  my  people  in  Richmond  were  like  “what  the…  ?  what  are  you  doing,   are  you  kidding?”  I  had  a  vibrate  group  of  friends,  and  gay  and  lesbian  people,  in  Richmond.  Most  of  my                                                                                                                           1    See  oral  history  interview  with  Jim  Best  in  the  LGBTQ  History  Collection,  Virginia  Room,  Roanoke  Public  Library.   6   �friends,  my  close  friends  were  women.  They  thought  I  was  insane,  to  go  to  this  place  where  typically  you   would  think  there’s  not  much  acceptance.  I  had  fear  of  coming  back  and  who  I  would  see.  It  was  a  lot  of   healing  for  me  to  do.  You  know  the  things  I  had  dealt  with  as  a  kid.  Very  shortly  after  coming  back,   maybe  within  a  year,  there  was  a  group  of  my  friends—not  Jim—who  wanted  to  start  a  PFLAG  chapter.   So  we  started  the  PFLAG  chapter.  It  was  really  a  woman  at  the  high  school  named  Dianne  Jackson  who   started  the  first  Diversity  Club  at  Floyd  County  High  School.  She  was  really  one  of  the  main  people  that   started  the  PFLAG  group.  It  was  astounding  to  me  to  think  that  this  was  happening  in  Floyd.  To  be   honest  with  you,  because  my  life  has  changed  so  much  sense  then,  I  went  from  sort  of  cautiously  being   open,  to  being  wide  open  by  the  time  I  left  Richmond.  For  a  number  of  years  I  had  a  partner  that  was   very  open  and  had  a  child.  That  was  in  the  ‘90s  for  me.  When  I  entered  into  that  relationship,  it  was  my   first  experience  with  having  a  child  in  my  family,  and  it  changed  everything  for  me.  She  was  very  proud   and  happy.  Very  open,  telling  everybody  including  her  mom  that  she  was  in  a  relationship  with  me.  And   there  was  no  way  she  was  going  to  see  anything  but  100  percent.  That’s  great.  Fantastic.  It  changed  my   life.  That’s  when  everything  became  completely  open  for  me.  I  began  to  see  how  critical  it  was  that   there  be  people  willing  to  do  that.  So  we  would  have  neighbors  into  our  house  for  monthly  potlucks.   These  were  older  women  who  did  not  think  they  ever  knew  a  gay  person.  We  were  very  open  and  I   think  it  really  changed  how  they  viewed  things.     When  I  came  to  Floyd,  I  have  to  say,  the  movement  has  not  been  my  passion.  Being  open  and   demonstrating  the  way  I  live  my  life,  this  is  what  a  gay  person  looks  like,  take  it  or  leave  it!  When  that   PFLAG  group  started,  there  wasn’t  anybody  in  that  initial  group  that  felt  a  calling  like  Jim  does.  A  calling   to  be  visible  and  vocal.  I’ve  been  there,  done  that.  I  was  very  open  when  I  came  to  Floyd.  You  know,   every  place  I  went,  “this  is  who  I  am,  this  is  my  partner.”  I  just  didn’t  feel  moved  to  be  an  advocate  in   that  way.  So  PFLAG  was  about  to  fold  in  Floyd  until  Jim  came  along.  He’s  really  taken  it  to  another  level.  I   I  mean,  he’s  fearless.  He’s  just  the  right  messenger.  He’s  got  the  right  package.  He  grew  up  as  a   Mormon,  he’s  graceful,  he’s  attractive,  he’s  articulate,  he’s  intelligent.  He’s  a  great  conversationalist.   He’s  just  been  the  right  person  to  carry  the  message.  I’m  really  grateful  to  him  because  it’s  courageous   of  him.  He’s  a  part  of  the  Quaker  meeting  that  I  attend.  Quakers  do  things  in  a  very  beautiful  way.  Jim   was  feeling  like  he  had  a  leading.  This  is  a  spiritual  thing  for  him.  A  leading  to  be  working  first  with   religious  communities  in  Floyd,  because  of  wanting  to  educate  them.  Open  their  minds  because  of  his   real  deep  concern  for  kids.  Our  meeting  is  supporting  that  leading.  So  we  have  a  support  group  for  Jim,   and  I’m  a  part  of  that.  One  of  the  things  we  commit  to  is  offering  companionship.  Being  with  him  as  he   does  his  mission.  I  went  with  him  to  a  Seventh-­‐Day  Adventist  church  in  Floyd.  I  was  just  blown  away  at   how  he’s  able  to  present  himself,  and  connect,  and  finding  commonality  and  common  ground.  He’s   really  changing  the  world  there.     It’s  not  my  passion  and  mission.  My  partner  was  married  to  a  man  for  many  many  years,  being  with  a   woman  was  new  for  her.  She  really  wanted  lesbian  friends,  like,  I  do  not  care  anymore.  Most  of  my   friends  now  are  heterosexuals,  just  because  that  is  who’s  there  and  who  I  connect  with.  Fortunately  for   me,  the  world  has  changed  so  much  that  I  don’t  segment  it  in  that  way  anymore.  It’s  just  I  can  be  myself   with  anybody  and  that’s  all  that  matters  to  me.  I  guess  my  closest  long-­‐term  friends  are  gay  women.  I   stepped  away  from  PFLAG.  I  support  completely  what  he  [Jim]  is  doing,  I  admire  and  respect  him  so   much,  but  I  really  think  that  each  of  us  should  do  what  really  moves  us  and  speaks  to  us,  not  that  we   don’t  support  a  lot  of  things  and  that’s  been  Jim’s  calling  and  its  phenomenal  what  he’s  doing.  I  wish   that  there  had  been  someone  like  Jim  for  me.  That  I  could  have  seen  some  example  of  somebody     7   �present  for  me.  I’d  be  happy  to  be  in  that  role  in  some  high  school,  I’ve  offered  to  talk  to  the  Diversity   Club  or  be  there  for  the  kids  to  see  there  are  all  kinds  of  ways  of  living  in  the  world  and  you  can  have  a   great  life.     30.17  KA-­‐  Do  you  think  that  Floyd  is  an  anomaly  in  the  Southwest  Virginia  area?   30.23  KO-­‐  Yes,  I  do.  I  don’t  know  that  much  about  other  communities  in  Southwest  Virginia,  like  I  do   Floyd,  but  when  I  came  back  and  was  working  as  a  retired  judge,  I  did  sit  in  other  places  and  it  is  unique.   For  whatever  reasons  Floyd  has  attracted  since  the  ‘70s  an  alternative  community  that  historically   embraces  everything.  I  mean,  live  and  let  live,  whatever  turns  you  on,  as  long  as  you’re  not  hurting   somebody.  So  there  is  strong  component  of  that  in  Floyd.  A  lot  of  people  have  come  into  the  county   because  it’s  got  that  energy.  So  there  are  more  new  people  in  Floyd,  who  are  liberal  and  accepting,   welcoming,  and  I  think  that  is  an  advantage  for  us.  It’s  not  say  that  there  still  isn’t  old  Floyd  and  that   everybody  in  the  county  is  supportive  of  PFLAG  because  they’re  not,  but  it’s  much  more  welcoming  than   I  would  have  ever  imagined.   31.39  KA-­‐What  would  you  say  was  the  most  defining  moment  for  you,  like  if  you  could  look  back  on  your   whole  life  and  find  one  moment  to  pull  and  explain  to  somebody  struggling  with  sexuality,  what  would   you  take  away  from  that  defining  moment?   32.03  KO-­‐Yea,  in  terms  of  the  totality  of  my  acceptance  of  myself  and  really  stepping  out  into  the  world   completely  free,  that  didn’t  happen  for  me  until  my  40s  and  when  I  made  that  transition  from  quietly   being  who  I  was  to  really  openly  being  who  I  was,  my  whole  life  changed.  You  don’t  recognize  how  much   you  are  holding  back,  how  much  you  are  hiding,  until  you  are  just  willing  to  fully  be  yourself.  My   gratitude  to  the  people  who  have  the  courage  to  do  that.  There  are  public  figures  in  our  life,  who  have   really  changed  the  world,  Ellen  DeGeneres  has  changed  the  world,  by  being  courageous  enough,  putting   her  entire  career  on  the  line,  by  being  able  to  say  “this  is  who  I  am.”  That  changed  for  me  because  I  saw   how  much  different  I  felt  in  the  world.  I  didn’t  hold  back  anything.  I  didn’t  screen  or  filter,  “that’s   probably  not  the  right  place  to  talk  about  my  partner  here.”  Even  though  I  didn’t  have  the  shame  about   myself.  I  know  there  are  plenty  of  people  who  do.  They  have  religious  messages  in  their  head  that   they’re  not  worthy,  that  they’re  sinners,  condemned,  there  are  all  of  the  messages  that  come  from   different  families  and  from  different  religions,  is  that  the  sooner,  whatever  work  it  takes  to  be  okay  with   yourself  and  have  the  courage  and  willingness,  no  matter  where  you  have  to  do  it,  go  somewhere,  move   somewhere  where  you  can  feel  free  enough  to  authentically  be  yourself.  Do  it.  Because  it  really  did   change  my  life  and  it  took  me  a  long  time.  The  world’s  different  now.  It’s  easier  in  some  ways  and  still   very  difficult  for  individuals,  the  world  is  a  lot  better,  but  that  doesn’t  change  the  fact  that  individual   families  can  be  very  punishing  and  dismissive.  For  too  many  people  of  the  world,  it’s  still  a  lot  that  they   have  to  lose  by  just  being  who  they  are,  but  the  sooner  you  can  get  to  that  point,  the  more  happiness   that  you’re  going  to  have  individually,  I  think.     34.35  KA-­‐You  obviously  flip-­‐flopped  between  Floyd  and  Florida...   34.41  KO-­‐Used  to.   34.42  KA-­‐Used  to,  and  now  you’re  situated  in  Floyd.  When  you  first  came  into  your  sexuality,  you  said   that  your  mother,  she  knew,  but  she  was  kind  of…   34.56  KO-­‐She  wasn’t  accepting  in  anyway.     8   �34.57  KA-­‐Yes,  so  how  would  you  say  for  parents  now,  especially  living  in  Southwestern  Virginia,  which  is   sort  of  a  more  conservative  area,  what  advice  would  you  give  them  to  deal  with  their  children’s   sexuality?     35.16  KO-­‐My  parents  grew  to  be  very  accepting  and  they  educated  themselves  and  they  had  a  lot  of   obstacles  against  them  at  that  time  because  all  the  literature,  much  of  the  literature  was  very  scary  for   them.  I’m  grateful  that  my  parents  eventually  did  their  homework  and  came  to  accept  and  love  me  for   who  I  was.  As  a  parent,  it’s  difficult  for  me—I  haven’t  given  birth  to  any  children,  but  I  have  step   children—its  difficult  for  me  to  understand  why  a  parent  would  reject  their  kid.  Most  typically—I  know   this  was  true  for  my  mother  before  knew—when  I  was  a  kid,  I  was  boyish,  I  was  most  comfortable  that   way,  and  I  think  she  was  embarrassed.  It  was  about  her,  it  wasn’t  about  me.  It  was  her  own  discomfort   with  having  a  kid  that  didn’t  conform  to  the  norm  or  didn’t  turn  out  the  way  that  she  wanted  me  to.  So,   for  parents  dealing  with  any  kind  of  kid  who’s  just  not  the  mainstream,  not  doing  what  everybody  else   does.  You  have  to  have  the  courage  to  look  at  your  own  self  and  look  at  what’s  really  going  here  and   have  the  willingness  to  do  that  work  yourself  and  love  your  kid.  The  world  is  scary  enough  when  your   family  supports  and  loves  you,  you  have  so  much  more  of  a  solid  foundation  to  stand  on  when  you  go   out  into  the  world.  The  world  can  be  difficult  for  anybody  who  is  different.  And  get  help.  There  is  plenty   of  really  great  resources  out  there.  If  you  can’t  do  it  on  your  own,  talk  to  someone  else,  find  an   organization  where  you  can  talk  to  parents  who  are  going  through  the  same  thing  and  support  yourself,   it's  lonely  for  parents,  too.   37.34  MK-­‐It  sounds  like  an  exhausting  process  to  be  gay  in  general   37.37  KO-­‐You  know,  not  anymore.  I  don’t  even  think  about  it  anymore.  That’s  what  I  was  trying  to  say   earlier  about.  I  know  we  tend  to  stick  together  in  gathering,  so  you  could  be  comfortable  and  be  yourself   and  touch  your  partner  because  there  are  other  people  who  are  gay  or  lesbian  in  the  room.  And  I  really   don’t  even  think  about  it  anymore.  You  know  I  have  such  a  good  community  here  in  Floyd.  And  you   chose  your  friends  right?  You’re  not  going  to  hang  out  with  people  that  aren’t  going  to  welcome  you.  I   just  don’t  think  about  as  much  anymore.  It’s  not—so,  this  is  a  really  silly  thing—but  it’s  not  completely   gone.  I  don’t  think  gay,  lesbian  people  should  just  do  what  heterosexuals  have  been  doing  forever   because  heterosexuals  have  been  doing  it  forever.  Marriage  is  one  of  those  things.  There  are  things  that   happen,  and  when  you  married  you  typically,  or  sometimes,  there’s  an  announcement  in  the  paper  and   your  picture  is  there.  And  everybody’s  like  “oh  that’s  so  nice”  and  I  was  thinking  about  that  recently.   We’re  older  which  makes  that  a  little  different  but  I’m  probably  not  going  to  do  that  in  the  Floyd  County   paper.  You  know,  have  some  listing  of  things  there.  There  are  little  remnants  of  things  where,  “yeah,  I’m   probably  not  going  to  do  that  in  Floyd  County.”  I  don’t  know  if  I’d  do  it  in  Richmond,  really,  but  it’s  just   not  so  much  an  issue  for  me  anymore.  And  I  think  it’s  so  refreshing  that  it’s  not  the  focus.  My  life   doesn’t  revolve  around  finding  placed  where  I  can  go  where  my  partner  and  I  can  be  safe.  All  the   websites  that  talk  about  places  where  gay  and  lesbian  people  can  travel.  I  traveled  all  over  the  world   and  there’s  just  not  a  lot  of  that  to  worry  about  anymore.  We  go  wherever  we  want  to  go  and  not   because  it  is  gay  friendly,  and  that  was  the  focus  when  we  would  travel,  or  when  my  friends  and  I  would   travel  in  the  ‘80s.  We  would  look  for  gay  friendly  places  to  go,  “oh  lets  go  to  Key  West  and  stay  at  a  gay   B&B.”  It’s  just  not  so  much  of  an  issue  anymore.  I  think  that’ll  become  less  and  less  the  case  because  of   your  generation  and  kids  coming  after  you.  My  step-­‐daughter  is  33  [years  old]  and  it  just  wasn’t  an  issue   for  her  and  her  friends.  The  whole  gender  conversation  is  beyond  me  now,  we  talk  about,  I  have  a   cousin  who  is  a  lesbian  who  is  ten  years  younger  than  me  and  there’s  all  this  gender  language  I  don’t     9   �understand.  I’m  open  to  it,  the  whole  transgender  movement,  there’s  some  transgender  people  in  Floyd   and  I’m  learning.  It’s  kinda  the  next  terrain  for  me.  How  do  you  respectfully  have  a  conversation  without   using  pronouns  and  what  are  people’s  preferences?  It’s  uncomfortable  just  because  I  don’t  want  to   offend  anyone.  It  certainly  throughout  my  life  has  been  a  source  of  sadness  mostly  because  you’re  just   not  included,  because  of  my  age  and  the  partners  that  I  had.  I  had  a  partner  for  ten  years,  in  my  30s  who   [was  a]  wonderful  woman,  very  scared  of  telling  her  family  and  so  she  never  did.  The  entire  time  we   were  together  and  you  know,  they  are  taking  family  pictures  at  weddings  and  we’d  been  together  for   eight  years  and  no  one  said  “Kim  should  have  been  in  the  picture”  and  that  kind  of  subtle  exclusion  is   really  hard,  really  really  hard.  And  that  doesn’t  happen  anymore.  Many  of  us  have  the  pain  of  that.  It’s   just  a  part  of  your  life.  It’s  what  you  experienced  and  you’re  grateful  that  it’s  not  that  way  anymore.  You   learn  to  make  choices  that  keep  that  from  happening  and  I  could  not  be  in  a  relationship  with  someone   who  wasn’t  100%  willing  to  be  open,  I’m  not  willing  to  do  that  anymore.    Not  to  say  I  don’t  have  respect   and  understand  when  other  people  make  those  very  hard  choices.  And  I’m  fortunate  in  this  sense  in  my   life  now.  My  mother  was  a  very  forbidding  figure  in  my  life,  very  critical,  very  harsh.  I  spent  most  of  my   life  worried  about  whether  what  I  was  doing  was  going  to  be  okay  for  her,  and  she’s  dead,  and  I  don’t   mean  to  sound  insensitive  when  I  say  that  but  there  is  nobody  in  the  world  anymore  that  I  care  about   what  their  feelings  are  in  the  way  that  it  would  influence  me  negatively.  I  am  who  I  am.  I’m  sensitive  and   kind  to  other  people.  But  that  voice  of  “uh  oh,  what’s  she  gunna  say  if  do  this”  [is]  gone.  It’s  completely   gone.  It’s  very  liberating.  Not  everybody  has  that  experience  and  so  I’m  grateful  to  say.  It’s  not  that  the   work  is  over  by  any  stretch.  You  know,  especially  in  Southwest  Virginia,  in  pockets  that  are  not  Floyd   County,  kids  are  suffering.  There  is  so  much  meanness  in  the  world.  You  know  really  look  at  what  kids  do   to  each  other.  It  feels  to  me  like  it’s  really  different  from  when  I  was  in  high  school.  It  was  certainly  very   different,  but  I  didn’t  get  bullied,  called  names,  and  things  like  that,  in  the  same  way  that  I  think  a  lot  of   kids  do  [today].   43.33  MK-­‐Do  you  think  because  there  is  more  awareness  now,  that  they’re  being  bullied,  or  because   when  you  were  in  high  school  and  elementary  school  there  wasn’t  much  going  on?   43.45  KO-­‐Maybe,  because  things  are  more  open,  and  there  is  more  awareness  of  “this  in  the  name  I  can   call  you.”  We  didn’t  even  know  then,  right?  So  that  might  be  the  case.  And  more  kids,  you  know,  are   having  the  courage  to  kind  of  be  who  they  are.  And  you  can  have  a  supportive  home  environment.  I   know  kids  in  Floyd  who  have  supportive  families  and  the  school  environments  is  just  harsh.  And  a   number  of  them  have  had  to  homeschool  their  kids.  Like  “I’m  just  not  doing  it.  I’m  not  putting  my  kid   through  this,”  and  I  really  blame  the  institution  for  that.  For  me,  as  an  adult,  around  any  issue,  it  would   be  incomprehensible  to  me  to  allow  an  environment  like  that  to  exist.  Where  the  adults  are  not  in   charge  and  saying  “this  is  really  not  okay,”  and  creating  the  safe  space  and  that’s  not  happening.  It’s   because  of  people’s  own  biases  and  prejudices  that  are  still  there.  You  know,  that’s  how  they  feel.  That’s   how  the  adults  feel.  They’re  not  reigning  in  the  kids.  Someone  like  Jim  has  the  right  sort  of  intolerance   for  that  kind  of  stuff  and  the  right  way  of  approaching  it  to  call  attention  to  that  kind  of  stuff,  you  hope   will  change  things,  because  you  really  have  to  have  somebody  who  is  true  in  every  area.  Someone  who   is  willing  to  say  “nope,  that’s  not  okay,”  to  hold  people  accountable,  to  be  willing  to  speak  up,  not  be   afraid  of  the  consequences,  to  have  the  courage  to  just  say  “this  is  not  right.  You  can’t  hurt  me.  Nothing   you  can  do  to  harm  me.  Go  after  me  all  you  want.”  Hopefully  that  will  change  the  culture  in  Floyd.  Its   gonna  take  time.     10   �45.37  MK-­‐Did  you  see  any  figures  like  that  who  would  be  intolerant  of  that  behavior  when  you  were   going  through  law  school?   45.50  KO-­‐No.  Well,  you  know,  what  I  can  honestly  say,  in  spite  of  the  challenges,  the  isolation,  the   loneliness.  I’m  someone  who  can  really  honestly  say  that  being  gay  didn’t  keep  me  from  doing  anything  I   wanted  to  do.  Towards  the  end  of  my  career,  I  became  a  judge,  despite  the  fact  that  I  was  gay.   Everybody  knew  I  was  gay.  Towards  the  end  of  my  career,  there  was  one  time  when  I  received  a  phone   call  from  someone  at  the  general  assembly.  Judges  at  my  level  of  court  have  to  be  reappointed  every  six   years.  So  every  six  years  you  go  through  a  process  that  you’re  either  a  judge  or  you’re  not.  Customarily   you  continue  to  be  a  judge  unless  you  make  a  big  mistake.  Just  before  my  last  reappointment  there  was   a  black  woman  in  Virginia  Beach,  lesbian,  who  was  at  a  higher  level  than  mine  and  she  was  not   reappointed  to  the  bench.  And  it  was  historic,  it  was  really  unusual  for  that  to  happen.  They  said  it  was   because  of  sexual  harassment  between  her  and  one  of  her  employees.  I  don’t  know  what  the  facts  really   were.  But  I  was  scared  when  that  happened.  My  reappointment  was  coming  up.  I  actually  got  a  phone   call  from  someone  at  the  general  assembly.  A  friend  who  said  “I’m  just  giving  you  a  heads  up.  There  is   someone  who  is  wanting  to  target  you  when  your  reappointment  comes  up,  because  you’re  a  lesbian.”   It  was  a  man  who  was  a  delegate  in  the  Richmond  area.  He  was  very  anti-­‐gay.  He  was  in  a  very  staunch   Republican  conservative  district.  He  was  openly  and  publicly  targeting  gay  people.  And  what  he  did  in  his   campaign,  whoever  was  running  against  him  received  a  large  donation  from  a  very  successful  gay   businessman  in  Richmond.  He  then  attacked  him  for  doing  this,  as  if  it  were  a  terrible  thing.  At  the  same   time  a  good  friend  of  mine  was  running  for  governor,  so  I  was  really  focused  on  Tim’s  election  and  it   never  occurred  to  me  that  this  man  would  lose  his  election.  The  elections  were  in  November  and  my   reappointment  process  was  going  to  start  in  January,  and  he  lost  reelection.  So  that  was  it  for  me,   whatever  he  intended  to  do  to  me  publicly  in  my  appointment,  it  never  happened.  But  what  do  you  do?   But  it  was  a  turning  point  for  me  professionally,  too,  and  for  Richmond,  it  was  like  “wow,  someone  lost   reelection  because  of  an  antigay  platform.  How  great  is  that?”   49.04  MK-­‐Would  you  say  that  Southwest  Virginia  and  Floyd  has  changed  a  lot  on  the  stance  of  sexuality?     49.26  KO-­‐I  wouldn’t.  It’s  not  old  Floyd  that’s  really  changing.  It’s  new  people  coming  to  Floyd  that  are   bringing  a  different  perceptive.  There  are  some  old  timers,  you  know,  some  people  that  have  been  there   for  a  long  time  who—I  don’t  want  to  create  this  sort  of  stereotype  for  anybody,  that  everybody  in   Southwest  Virginia  is  this  conservative…—but  it  is  a  bible  belt.  There  are  a  lot  of  conservative  Christian   dominations  there.  And  I  think  slowly  by,  this  is  why  I  think,  for  me,  my  individual  choice  is  to  be  as  open   as  I  can  be  anywhere  I  can  be  it,  because  there  are  people  who  just  think  they  don’t  know  anyone.  They   have  their  own  stereotypes  of  gay  people  and  I  don’t  fit  it.  So  as  there’s  more  openness,  I  think  there’s   greater,  one  of  my  least  favorite  words,  but  I  think  there’s  greater  tolerance.  I  don’t  know  how   accepting,  I  don’t  know  how  accepting  people  are  of  me  and  many  of  the  circles  I  go  in,  but  they’re   tolerating  it,  they’re  not  pushing  back.  I  have  no  idea  what  they  say  behind  closed  doors  and  I  don’t   really  care.  My  hairdresser  is  a  woman  who  has  been  in  Floyd  County  her  whole  life,  generations,  you   know,  she’s  amazing  and  progressive  and  the  most  creative.  You  wouldn’t  know  it  from  my  hair—I’m   getting  a  haircut  tomorrow—I  shaved  my  head.  My  head  was  shaved  because  I  was  in  Nepal  last  year  so   I’m  just  letting  it  go  crazy.  And  I  talk  to  Krissy.  I’ll  tell  Krissy  tomorrow  I’m  getting  married  and  she’ll  be   great  and  she’ll  be  “ah,  I’m  so  excited  for  you  Kim.”  Now  I  don’t  have  the  slightest  idea  what  she  really   thinks,  you  know.  Does  she  really  think  “Wow,  that’s  you  know,  I  don’t  know,”  but  I  don’t  care.  So  that’s   part  of  it,  I  just  don’t  care,  I  don’t  care  if  people  accept  me.  I  don’t  care,  you  know,  I  really  don’t  want  to     11   �be  targeted.  I  don’t  wanna  be  humiliated.  I  don’t  wanna  be  harassed.  But  people  in  Floyd  are  polite,  if   they  don’t  like  you,  they  will  just  stay  away  from  you.  They’re  not  going  to  say  to  your  face  that  you’re   going  to  hell.  Some  of  them  might,  if  you  give  them  a  chance.  I  just  had  a  conversation  about  theology   around  homosexuality  and  Jim  never  does  that,  he  never  tries  to  have  the  theology  conversation,  he   could.  It’s  just  it’s  neighbors,  I’m  your  neighbor,  my  neighbor  happens  to  be  a  lesbian.  And  it’s  like   everybody,  do  you  really  talk  to  your  heterosexual  neighbors  and  friends  about  their  heterosexuality?   You  don’t.  I  mean  you  do  your  business  together,  you  do  what  you  need  to  do.  Maybe  Floyd’s  changing   a  little  bit  because  there  are  more  visible  gay  people  there.  They’re  tolerant.  The  new  people  are   accepting.     52.29  MK-­‐So  you  mention  you  went  to  Nepal  last  year,  can  you  tell  us  a  little  about  it?   52.33  KO-­‐I  went  with  a  clinic.  It  was  transformative,  it’s  actually,  it’s  been  a  little  more  than  a  year,  it   was  the  fall  of  2014.  I  was  in  India  for  a  couple  of  weeks  ahead  of  time,  and  then  in  Nepal  for  more  than   a  month,  in  the  most  remote  region  in  Nepal  walking  with  a  group  of  doctors.  I  was  obviously  not  a   doctor.  I  was  volunteering  at  the  clinics  to  [help  with]  patient  control  and  things  like  that.  It  was   incredible.  Unbelievably  beautiful.  And  difficult,  and  we’re  blessed,  even  our  housing  projects  are  better   than  anything  that  people  have  in  third  world  countries.     53.22  MK-­‐Did  you  give  you  some  perspective  on  the  whole  world  entirely?   53.25  KO-­‐Yea,  one  of  the  most  powerful  pieces  of  it  really  was  around  technology  for  me,  and  the  way   we’re  out  of  balance  with  it.  I  didn’t  have  access  to  anything.  I  mean  there’s  no  cellphones,  there’s  no   electricity  still  in  parts  of  Nepal.  The  most  remote  regions.  There’s  a  way  that  people  are  able  to  present   to  each  other  that  doesn’t  have  the  distraction.  Of  course  there’s  you  know,  it’s  a  luxury  and  it  makes   life  easier.  They  would  love  to  have  all  the  technology  that  we  have  for  ease  and  I  didn’t  miss  it  for  one   minute.  Movement,  you  know  people  there  walk  everywhere  and  in  the  entire  time  I  was  in  the   Northwest  portion  of  Nepal,  there’s  not  a  single  motorized  vehicle,  not  one.  There  are  no  motorized   vehicles.  And  so  it’s  ancient,  it  was  really  like  stepping  back  in  time  hundreds  of  years.  Before  cars  and   you  know  people  are  walking.  We  were  on  an  ancient  trade  route  to  Tibet  which  is  in  China,  it’s  hard  for   me  to  call  it  China  now,  and  they’re  doing  it  the  same  way,  donkeys,  sacks  of  flower  and  rice,  and  going   up,  walking  up  to  China,  to  Tibet,  to  trade  for  salt  and  things.  So  there’s  a  simplicity.  And  it’s  easy  to   romanticize  that  when  you  have  the  conveniences  [of  first  world  life],  but  it  was  really  hard  for  me  to   get  in  a  car  when  I  got  back.  There  are  places  that  I  can  walk,  not  many,  but  there  are  places  I  can  walk.  I   walked  to  meetings  like  five  miles  from  my  house,  it’s  nothing.  We  walked  twice  that  much  every  day.   We’re  spoiled  and  there’s  a  disconnection  from  the  planet  that  happens  when  you  do  that.  So  I’d  go   back  in  a  minute.  And  highly  recommend  it  to  anyone,  travel.  Travel,  go  places,  and  see  things  while  you   can.   55.41  KA-­‐So  you  said  you  had  done  some  traveling  before  Nepal,  would  you  say  that  that  gave  you   perspective  as  a  whole?   55.46  KO-­‐Absolutely.  India,  Nepal.  I’ve  done  a  lot  of  traveling  and  it  educates  you  in  a  different  kind  of   way.  As  I  say  to  you,  there’s  a  commonness.  You  realize  that  there’s  really  not  a  lot  of  differences  among   us.  I  don’t  care  where  you  go,  I  was  in  one  of  the  poorest  places  on  Earth,  next  to  Africa,  in  terms  of  food   and  the  winter  months  it’s  hard  for  them  to  survive.  Their  humanity,  their  humor,  maybe  local  customs   that  are  different,  certainly  they  are,  but  things  we  want  and  need  and  desire  in  terms  of  connection,  it’s     12   �all  the  same.  That’s  been  surprising  to  me,  actually,  no  matter  where  you  go.  There  is  a  McDonald’s   everywhere.  In  the  bigger  cities.   56.45  MK-­‐So  you  traveled  domestically,  too,  earlier  on  in  the  ‘70s  or  ‘80s?   56.51  KO-­‐I  did  a  lot  of  traveling.  I  did  more  traveling  in  the  ‘90s  all  over  the  US.   56.55  MK-­‐You  said  your  friends  would  seek  out  gay  safe  places,  can  you  describe  to  me  what  that  would   be  like  to  try  to  find  one  of  those?   57.04  KO-­‐Okay  I  actually  wouldn’t  go  online  then,  but  travel  books,  word  of  mouth.  I  mean  there  were   hot  spots.  San  Francisco,  Key  West  were  two  of  the  primary  ones.  Fort  Lauderdale  has  [a  scene],  for  men   actually  it  was  more  male,  but  Key  West  and  San  Francisco  were  the  two  big  places.  New  York,  but  not   so  much  actually.  You  know  New  York  is  more  of  cosmopolitan  city,  but  not  really  known  for  being   welcoming  in  that  way,  so  yea  you  just  talked  to  each  other.  “Where  did  you  have  a  good  experience?”   There  are  magazines.  The  Advocate  has  been  around  for  a  long  time.2  And  there  are  all  kinds  of   underground  publications  for  a  long  time  that  you  just  know  because  you  go  to  a  gay  bar  and  they’re   there.  Local  stuff  where  you  could  find  travel  ads  and  there  were  people,  even  then,  you  know  trying  to   court  the  population.     58.05  KA-­‐So  would  you  say  that  these  places  sort  of  linked  together  the  nation  in  sexuality,  if  that  makes   sense?   58.12  KO-­‐They  were  safe  spaces.   58.16  KA-­‐That  brought  people  together?   58.17  KO-­‐Yea,  absolutely.  Washington  D.C.,  even  DuPont  Circle,  as  an  example,  gay  bookstores  where   you  could  find  a  lot  of  information.  You  know  people  go  where  there  are  people  like  them  or  at  least   where  they  feel  safe  being  who  they  are,  and  I  don’t  do  that  anymore.  They  certainly,  well  now  that  you   don’t  have  to  think  about  where  to  get  married,  it  was  a  little  bit  difficult  for  me  like  “oh  gosh,  I  would   really  love  to  be  legally  married  in  Virginia,”  but  what  difference  does  it  make?  We’re  going  to  be  legally   married.  Part  of  me  wanted  to  be  that  first  person,  because  I’m  sure  nobody’s  done  it.  Who  walked  into   the  Floyd  County  Circuit  Court  and  said  “I’d  like  a  marriage  license.”     59.12  KA-­‐  That’s  exciting!     59.14  KO-­‐  Yea,  and  on  the  other  hand  I  don’t  care  about  it.  I  mean  it  doesn’t  really  matter,  you  know  we   can  all  do  it  and  that’s  the  important  thing.  You  know,  now  we  don’t  have  to  worry  about  insurance,  and   the  stuff  that  other  people  take  for  granted,  that  they  been  able  to  do  forever.  Estate  planning  is   simpler,  and  we  can  worry  about  other  things.     59.39  KA-­‐  So  would  you  say—I  know  that  we  keep  talking  about  traveling,  but  it  sort  of  plays  an   important  role  in  shaping  you  as  a  person.  Would  you  say  that  you  may  have  been  a  different  person,  if   you  didn’t  travel  so  much,  in  terms  of  acceptance  of  people?  Because  when  you  travel  to  new  places   you’re  meeting  new  people,  so  would  you  say  that  that’s  helped  you  become  more  accepting  of  not  only   yourself  but  others?                                                                                                                             2    The  Advocate  began  publication  in  1967.  It  is  consider  the  longest-­‐running  LGBTQ  publication  in  U.S.  history.   13   �1.00.11  KO-­‐  Yea,  I  would!  I  mean  I  think  if  I  had  been  born  and  raised  in  Floyd  County,  and  never  been   out  of  the  county,  there’s  still  plenty  of  people  who  do  that.  And  I  didn’t  see  that  “oh,  wow,  there  are   gay  bookstores…?”  In  the  Castro  district  in  San  Francisco,  there’s  a  movie  theater  that  shows  gay  films.  If   I  didn’t  know  that  there  were  places  beyond  my  small  world,  I  think  it  would  have  been  really  harder  for   me  to  see  that  there’s  a  broader  world  out  here  that’s  not  narrow.  It’s  bigger  than  where  I  am.  That’s   part  of  recognizing  that  it  is  not  everywhere.  It’s  not  this  way  everywhere.  Even  in  India,  I  was  so   surprised  to  see,  routinely,  men  walking  down  the  street  holding  hands.  Being  very  affectionate  and   close,  they  weren’t  homosexual.  They  just  accepted  this  closeness  among  men,  and  it  was  fine.  You   learn  from  seeing  that  there  are  things  that  are  done  differently  in  different  places.  Even  though   humanity  is  the  same,  and  it’s  expansive.  It  gives  you  a  sense  of  hope,  and  it’s  like  going  to  a  museum  in   some  ways.  You  know  where  you’re  exposed  to  different  ways  of  doing  things.  It  helps  you  come  out  of   yourself,  I  think.  Just  seeing  that  the  world  is  bigger  than  my  small  little  pocket.  Especially  for  people   who  have  had  a  limited  worldview  experience.  There  is  a  tendency  we  have  to  either  think  that  our   experience  is  unique  or  that  there’s  nobody  else  who  has  felt  this  way.  It’s  the  power  of  story,  and   especially  when  people  are  willing  to  tell  difficult  stories.  Someone  else  can  read  that,  or  listen  to  that,   and  understand  that  “I  thought  I  was  alone.  I  didn’t  think  anybody  in  world  could  possibly  feel  this  way.”   Because  they  hadn’t  been  exposed,  or  people  hadn’t  been  willing  to  tell  the  truth  about  their  hard   things.     1.02.29  KA-­‐  So  now,  what  would  you  say  to  people  of  the  world,  who  can’t  get  out  of  their  little  pocket?   How  would  you  recommend  that  they  reach  out  to  the  world  outside  their  pocket?     1.02.44  KO-­‐  Well  there’s  lots  of  ways  to  do  that  because  of  technology.  There’s  a  virtual  world  of   company  online.    I  think  that’s  one  of  the  great  things  about  it.  You  know,  Jim’s  communicating  with   Quakers  in  Uganda,  and  connecting  and  talking.  There  are  a  lot  of  ways  to  connect  with  people  who   share  a  perspective.  You  just  have  to  have  the  willingness.     I  had  this  really  interesting  experience  hiking.  Anita  and  I  were  hiking  at  the  Cascades,  it’s  spectacularly   beautiful!  It’s  about  a  year  and  a  half  ago.  We  encountered  a  man  on  the  trail,  who  was  very  effeminate,   but  he  was  a  man.  He  just  befriended  us.  He  was  lonely,  you  could  tell  that.  He  was  talking  to  us.  I   thought  he  was  a  gay  man,  because  he  was  so  effeminate.  He  was  talking  about  how  it  was  hard  to  meet   women,  and  I  am  thinking  “honey,  you  don’t  have  to  pretend  with  me.  You  don’t  have  to  talk  that  you’re   trying  to  meet  women.  We’re  gay!  We’re  lesbians,  we’re  together.  No  need  to  put  up  this  charade  for   us.”  We  got  to  the  top  of  the  Cascades,  he  finally  made  it,  he  sat  down.  He  told  us  his  story,  and  he’s   actually  a  hermaphrodite.  Really  difficult,  for  me  it  was  mind  blowing,  because  I  thought  “How  could   anyone  discriminate  against  someone  who  has  an  extra  chromosome?”  There’s  pros  and  cons  to  that   whole  thing,  is  there  something  genetic  in  me  that  makes  me  a  lesbian?  This  human  actually  had  an   extra  chromosome  and  had  qualities  of  male/  female  and  has  had  a  miserable  existence,  really  identifies   as  a  female,  that’s  where  Danny’s  gender  association  is,  but  wants  to  be  with  women.  He  just  doesn’t   fall  into  the  category  of  anything  that  makes  sense,  right?  She  is  like  completely  isolated  and  lonely,   we’ve  tried  to  connect  with  her  on  any  number  of  occasions,  we’ve  invited  her  to  PFLAG  events.  We’ve   got  Jim  and  Anita  and  I  have  taken  her  to  the  movies  once,  she’s  very  attractive,  very  smart,  and  won’t   step  outside  of  the  box.  We  invited  her  to  a  meeting,  she  said  she  was  going  to  come  to  where  there   was  other  transgender  people  in  Floyd.  There’s,  because  of  her  own  history,  she  has  a  mindset  that   she’s  not  going  to  find  anyone  who  is  okay  with  her,  and  she’s  wrong.  She’s  wrong.  But  that  fear  and   whatever  that’s  happened  to  kinda  hold  her  down  her  whole  life,  is  keeping  her  from  connecting  with     14   �the  world  that  is  there,  how  do  you…  I  mean,  you  can’t  force  someone  to  do  that.  So  you  have  to  be   willing  if  you  really  want  to  make  the  connections,  you  have  to  the  courage  to  say  “I’m  gonna  try  this.”   You  know,  she’s  had  a  lot  of  bad  experiences  where  people  have  made  fun  of  her  and  her  own  sense  of   herself  is  so  damaged.  You  have  to  believe  in  yourself  enough  to  know  “I’m  worthy,  I’m  worth  having   friends,  and  I’m  worth  having  good  friends.”  And  you  can  find  that  is  this  world.  If  you’re  willing  to  do  it,   put  forth  the  effort.  There’s  no  reason  why  someone  should  be  alone,  there’s  really  not.  You  just  have   someone  say  that  you  maybe  or  somewhere  see  that  that’s  the  case.  It’s  not  easy  for  some  folks.   1.06.45  MK-­‐  Can  you  point  to  a  moment  in  your  life  that  you  felt  that  way,  that  you  came  to  that   realization  that  you  are  worthy  of  not  being  alone?     1.06.54  KO-­‐  You  know  that  was  never  my  issue.  And  I  don’t  know  whether  it  was  because  I  was  an   athlete.  So  at  the  same  time  that  I  was  an  outsider,  I  was  always  an  insider.  Because  I  had  a  team  and  I   was  good  at  it.  I  always  had  something  that  gave  me  a  sense  of  belonging.  I’m  very  fortunate.  That  is  one   of  the  hardest  struggles  that  people  have,  is  thinking  “I’m  okay.  I  don’t  care  what  the  world  [thinks  of   me].”  That’s  just  not  the  struggle  that  I  had.  Mine  was  more  of…  because  of  my  formative  experiences   with  relationships  or  whatever  you  want  to  call  them.  That  screwed  me  up  so  much,  that  what  I  didn’t   understand  was  how  to  make  a  commitment  in  a  relationship.  What  is  long  term  fidelity  and  loyalty?   Not  to  say  that  I  was  a  bad  person  but  I  just  didn’t  understand.    That  was  really  my  work,  learning  to  be   in  a  long  term  relationship.  But  I  am  wired  for  that,  I  just  didn’t  know  how  to  do  it.  Those  are  the  things  I   had  to  deal  with.  Fears  of  abandonment,  somebody  was  gonna  leave  in  a  minute  because  relationships   were  just  taken  form  me.  Any  relationship  I  had,  if  my  mother  found  out  about  it,  it  was  over.  No   closure,  no  conversation,  and  they  were  fucked-­‐up  relationships  to  begin  with.  Then  when  they   weren’t—with  people  my  own  age  or  whatever—there  was  no  way  to  have  that  happen.  You  just   couldn’t  have  a  long  term  relationship  without  a  tremendous  amount  of  secrecy,  struggle,  and  I  just   didn’t  know  how  to  do  it.  That’s  been  my  work,  not  worthiness  individually,  but  how  to  heal  my  own   internal  wounds.  We  all  have  them,  how  to  do  my  own  healings  so  that  I  didn’t  get  in  own  way,   sabotage  things  without  really  knowing  it.   1.09.23  KA-­‐So  would  you  say  that  that’s  something  that  might  be  contingent  with  your  generation?   1.09.31  KO-­‐Maybe,  and  I  think  it’s  an  issue,  it  strikes  me  being  worth  saying  this,  too.  And  this  is  not  just   for  being  gay,  it’s  harder  when  you’re  different,  but  I  think  that  what  happened  for  me  because  of  the   formative  experiences  that  I  had,  you  know  those  tender  years  of  experimentation,  what  happened  for   me  is  that  I  didn’t,  even  though  I  felt  that  was  okay,  I  didn’t  really  have  a  solid  sense  of  myself  as  an   individual  separate  from  anything  else.  Just  me.  “I’m  fine  all  by  myself,  I  don’t  need  a  relationship.”  I   really  did.  I  needed  relationships  and  didn’t  know  it,  but  things  got  torn  away  from  me  and  relationship   became  the  most  important  thing  for  me,  because  of  those  formative  experiences.  I  think  that  happens   a  lot,  you  know.  It’s  hard  enough  as  an  adolescent,  but  when  you’re  a  gay  or  lesbian  person  that   tendency  to  be  defined  by  or  feel  like  you  have  to  have  someone  anchor  you.  “My  better  half,  my  other   half.”  There  ain’t  no  other  or  better  half  for  me.  I’ve  done  my  work.  I’m  a  solid  person,  in  myself.   Whatever  wounds  that  I  had  that  were  there,  whatever  hurts  and  pains  and  traumas  that  I  had,  and   there  were  plenty,  I’ve  taken  care  of  my  own  business.  And  I  can  stand  completely  alone,  in  fact  I  love   being  alone.  I  have  a  lot  of  interests.  I  went  to  Nepal  without  my  partner.  It’s  icing  on  the  cake,  and  a  lot   of  folks  don’t  see  that.  That  a  relationship  is  really  not  to  compliment  or  fix.  When  you’re  lonely,  of   course  you’re  looking  for  that.  You  think  “if  only  I  had,  if  only  I  met  the  right  person.”  Danny  the     15   �hermaphrodite,  “if  only  I  met...”  It’s  not  about  meeting  the  right  person.  It’s  about  meeting  yourself  first   then  being  completely  whole  and  solid  and  then  the  person  you  meet  is  gonna,  its  gonna  be  a  whole   different  kind  of  relationship.  It’s  not  going  to  be  this  co-­‐dependent  fearful  needy  kind  of  thing.  It’s  “hey,   we’re  two  great  people,  I’m  perfectly  fine  by  myself  but  this  is  even  better  to  have  someone  to  share  life   with.”  I  think  there  is  the  risk  of  that  when  you’re  marginalized,  when  you  live  in  that  way  and  you  just…   I  craved  community.  I’m  a  pack  animal  by  nature,  anyway,  but  I  want,  I  just  craved  community,  you   know  people  like-­‐minded,  people  where  I  could,  you  know,  be  myself  and  share  life  with.  So  yea,  I  think   just  generally  speaking  it’s  a  challenge  for  a  lot  of  people  to  be  okay  all  by  themselves.  To  have  a  life  that   is  separate  from  a  love  interest  or  distraction  in  that  way.  I’m  sure  when  there’s  that  much  loss  and  you   want…  This  is  the  thing  my  step-­‐daughter  has  said  this,  “I  just  want  someone,  I  just  want  to  be  the  most   important  thing  to  someone.”  I  mean  we  can  all  identify  with  that,  right?  You  have  to  be  the  most   important  thing  to  yourself.  You  really  can’t  expect  the  relationship,  of  course,  you  want  your  partner  to   think  you’re  fantastic  and  wonderful,  why  would  you  be  with  someone  who  doesn’t  think  that?  But  if   you  are  looking  for  someone  to  give  you  that  primary  sense  of  belonging,  you’re  missing  something.   That’s  where  the  openness  and  the  support  that  so  many  gay  and  lesbian  people  have  now,  it  really   helps  to  have  healthy  relationships.  Yea,  it’s  been  interesting  to  me.  I’ve  wondered,  “why?”  I’ve  had   three  significant  long-­‐term  relationships  in  my  life.  This  is  my  third.  There’s  a  lot  of  movement  in,  if  I  look   in  the  community  in  Richmond.  You  know  people  have  kind  of,  there  are  very  few  relationships,  two  of   my  best  friends  have  been  together  for  almost  thirty  years.  That’s  very  unusual,  and  why  is  that?  Is  it   any  more  or  less  than  heterosexuals?  I  don’t  know  what  the  research  shows,  seems  to  me  likes  it’s  more   and  why?  Is  it…  I  don’t  know  the  answer  to  that.  I  think  part  of  it  is  the  marriage  is  really  a  communal   event.  Historically,  I  wouldn’t  go  there  because  it’s  really  about  property.  You  know  when  you  think  of   the  support  that  heterosexual  couples  have,  there’s  a  social  network  that  really  doesn’t  want  them  to   get  divorce,  that  wants  them  to  stay  together.  There’s  services,  there’s  friends,  and  there’s  marriage.   There’s  marriage,  it’s  not  a  small  thing  to  get  married.  It’s  a  hard  thing  to  get  divorced.  A  lot  of  contracts,   it’s  a  promise,  it’s  an  agreement.  And  we  didn’t  have  that,  did  that  matter?  Has  that  created  less  stability   in  the  relationship?  I  don’t  know.     1.15.01KA-­‐Valuable,  valuable  lesson  to  be  learned.  Do  you  think,  this  is  sort  of  my  final  question.  Do  you   think,  its  seems  like  you  came  into  yourself  before  you  came  into  sort  of  the  relationship  realm,  Do  you   think  that  has  shaped  the  way  that  you  handle  your  relationships  now,  by  coming  into  yourself  first?   1.15.19  Absolutely.  It  took  me  too  many  years  and  I  hope  it  doesn’t  take  either  one  of  you  that  long.  But   I  had  a  lot  of  trauma,  a  lot  of  trauma  in  my  childhood,  some  of  which  you  haven’t  heard  about.  Yea,   absolutely.  Make  sure  that  you  know  yourself  first  and  that  you’re  solid  alone  and  you  have  interest  in   things  that  thrill  you,  that  you  love  to  do.  Alone,  with  your  friends.  Any  relationship  that  you  have  that   comes  from  that  place  is  going  to  be  better  than  that  comes  from  “I  feel  so  much  better  about  myself   when  I’m  with  him,  or  I  feel  so  much  better  about  myself  when  I’m  with  her.  What  happens  if  I  lose  him   or  her?”  Whatever,  you’ll  be  fine  if  you  have  that  core  sense  of  yourself,  not  to  say  there’s  not   heartbreak.  But  fundamental  to  any  good  relationship  I  think  or  any  healthy  living  is  a  strong  sense  of   worthiness  and  value  alone.  You’re  home  is  in  yourself,  my  home  was  not  in  my  self,  until  my  fifties,  late   forties  maybe  but  fifties,  but  there’s  nothing  that  can  rock  you,  when  your  happiness  doesn’t  depend  on   anything  outside  of  you  there’s  nothing  that  can  rock  you.  Not  to  the  core.  Obviously  there  are  things   that  happen  that  are  difficult  and  challenging  but  not  in  that  way  of,  you  can’t  be  okay  without  it.       16   �1.16.51  MK-­‐So  as  we  are  wrapping  up  do  you  have  anything  else  that  you  want  to  have  memorialized  in   the  story  that  you  just  wanna  express  for  us  to  keep  on  record?       1.17.03  KO-­‐  Just  my  happiness  and  gratitude  to  all  of  those  people  who  have  laid  the  foundation  for  the   world  being  better  for  me,  who  have  had  the  courage  to  be  open  and  vocal  and  even  radically  so  which   might  not  be  comfortable  for  me.  They’ve  made  the  world  okay  for  me,  and  how  happy  I  am  for  most  of   the  younger  generation  that  it’s  been  easier,  and  to  understand  where  you’ve  come  from,  understand   who  your  ancestors  are,  it’s  part  of  what  you’re  doing.   1.17.38  CA  and  MK-­‐Thank  you  so  much.       17   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Kim O'Donnell Description An account of the resource Interviewers: Caitlyn Allen and Madison Kunstman Interviewee: Kim O’Donnell Date: 25 February 2016 Total Duration: 77:42 Transcription prepared by: Will Lucas Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kim O'Donnell; Caithlyn Allen; Madison Kunstman; Will Lucas Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ODonnellKim https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2616/Saunders_Rodger-1.MP3 b1a40f20229e70b85034eaeaa001124c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2616/Saunders_Rodger-2.MP3 1a622c11676216576a38d4ccf7bd4936 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2616/Saunders_Rodger-3.MP3 736ca239e1fb170e2f609be2903dd27e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2616/Saunders_Rodger.pdf 95c198f950a2349f6cc79ad4c3150a5a PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Rodger Saunders February 25, 2016 Interviewer: Holly Thompson Interviewee: Rodger Saunders Date: February 25, 2016 Location: Roanoke Diversity Center Total: 59:02 Transcribed by: Laura Groves and Craig Walker Part 1 0:00 = on growing up in Roanoke, and moving to Richmond for four years (late 1970s / early 1980s) 2:43 = coming out to his parents in Roanoke in 1984 9:14 = Roanoke Police Department crackdowns on gay cruising 12:26 = describing the gay bar scene in Roanoke in the 1980s 14:51 = on the issue of employment discrimination against gays 20:35 = the gay cruising scene in Roanoke 26:58 = gay-friendly bars and restaurants in Roanoke Part 2 0:00 = his first sexual experiences, at age 26 or 27 (early 1980s), in Richmond; and some frightening sexual encounters, as well 9:05 = on the concept of “looking gay”; gay fashion styles 11:45 = the increasing fluidity of gender identity and sexual orientation, more than just LGBT Part 3 0:00 = gay pornography; gay bookstores and bathhouses 3:44 = the story of a sexual relationship with a woman 6:49 = the AIDS crisis 9:09 = his work with the Roanoke Diversity Center (2010s) Part 1 (30:16) 0:01 HT: this is Holly Thompson sitting here with… 0:03 RS: Rodger Saunders 1 �0:04 HT: From… 0:05 RS: The Roanoke Diversity Center. 0:06 HT: Okay. Can you start off by telling us where you're from? 0:09 RS: Well, I was born in Roanoke, and lived here most of my life. I moved to Richmond in 1980 and came back here in 1984, and have been here ever since. 0:20 HT: Okay, so how do you identify yourself within the Roanoke community? 0:24 RS: I am a gay male. 0:26 HT: Okay. How long have you lived in Roanoke? 0:31 RS: 54 Years, with four of those being in Richmond, I mean four additional ones being in Richmond. I’m 58. 0:39 HT: Okay, would you like to talk about growing up for a little bit, like you said you moved to Richmond, would you like describe that for a little bit? 0:50 RS: Sure, well, going back a little further, when I was about 5 or 6 I realized I was different from folks because I would watch Westerns and when a person got shot I would want them to take their shirt off so I could see them, and I didn't really know what “gay” was but I enjoyed the guys with their shirts off and I had a preference with the ones that weren't hairy, even at that age, and as I got older and found out that wasn't the way everyone was I hid that and it didn't even come out until 1984, kinda by accident, with a personal situation that I had after I moved back from Richmond. 1:36 HT: Okay, so do you want to tell us a little bit about Richmond? 1:40 RS: Sure, I transferred up there with Long John Silvers. I was Assistant Manager, and it was the first time I was away from home. I lived with my parents until then, and when I moved there I didn't immediately jump into the gay life because I was busy trying to work, and I went to a few clubs there and some gay cafe things, but I would sit outside and sit for an hour or so wondering if I wanted to go in because I didn't want anyone I may know ride by to see me going in a gay club. So, the hesitation was there but once I got in there I felt really relaxed and was amazed that there was so many people that A. I was attracted to, B. That were like me and some that weren't like me because there's so many different facets of diversity in life. 2:31 HT: Definitely, so, could tell us a little bit about how you came out. So you're talking about being in Richmond for a little bit. Did you come back to Roanoke and continue your life the way you'd been living? 2:43 RS: I did. Well, while I was there I met several folks and had several gay experiences and one of the people I met on my job was a security guard and he was fellow security guard but he 2 �had several side jobs. One, he was a stockbroker, and he was a local county cop, he wasn't a Richmond cop, but he was a nearby county cop, and I'm thinking why are you a security guard, which is kinda of a low man on the totem pole if you're a stockbroker and you're a cop and all this. So you tend not to believe folks like that. Well, one night he took me to his office, he had a nice office, desk, name on the desk, it was his name. Then one night I had to take his shift and my car had broken down and it was after the bus hours and I worked til midnight and he said I can pick you up, but I'm on my shift doing the police stuff, but I'll pick up in the squad car, we gotta hurry back cause I have to get to the other side of the city. So he picked me up there, he was in a fully uniformed cop car and everything. So everything he told me was true. Also along those lines, he told me that his favorite thing was to cut people, and he told me he killed people. And [he] had a farm in Montpelier where his parents lived, and I said okay, here's a guy that I didn't think was a stockbroker but was, didn't think he was a cop but he was, and so why should not believe the stories he's told me about hurting people and killing people and burying them in plots down [on] his mother’s and dad’s farm? Anyway, that caused a problem while I was there. I met a guy hitchhiking to Kings Dominion, I was doing a bank run from Richmond to Winchester and I saw the guy standing on the side of the road and he was hitchhiking he had no shirt on, and of course “Ding Ding!” [imitating sound of a bell] So I drove really quickly to the place, switched cars to get the company car, rode back. Luckily he was still there hitchhiking. I picked him up, we drove towards Kings Dominion and he said “Do you know of any gay places in town?” and I said “a few,” and we got to talking. I gave him my number and the next week we wound up together… temporarily, but over the course of the next year or two, with my friendship with the cop/stockbroker/guard and this guy. Because I knew what this guy was he was a hustler he didn't just do things for the fun of it because he loved women, and so I said the things the stockbroker/cop guy wanted to do or did do with guys sexually this other guy didn't do because he was straight, so I told the stockbroker/cop guy that he would never have the other person, which was my favorite person at the time so that made the stockbroker/cop person making up his mind he was going to have the other guy just to make me mad and to prove he could do it. So I went to Winchester and came back one day and came home. The backdoor had been kicked in. The guys were in the house, my guy was told by the cop it was okay to break it in, he was a cop, so he broke the door in, and then they did their thing. I came home and saw this and was upset on several levels. 1. there was a break in at the house; 2. a cop did it; 3. they had ya know sex and it was my guy, so there was jealousy there. So I just act like nothing happened, I changed my clothes and I left. I immediately went to a phone and called mom and dad told them there was some issues at the house and that I needed to come home. And the next day dad came up with the U-haul and we moved back to Roanoke. Again they didn't know why I was having these issues, or [why] that I'm willing to move back. So once I got back, over a few months my dad passed away, and before that I had told him I was gay and I was glad that I did because I wanted him to know before he passed away. But prior to him passing away I got angry at this guy that I liked cause he came back to Roanoke to visit me and wouldn't have sex with me after I'd gone back to Richmond and picked him up. So when I came back the guy was at a storage building that I had, and I just locked the car, I mean I left him in the car, I took the key, and I walked home. As I got towards the house, it was 2 or 3 in the morning, I said “I don't really like what's going on. I don't like my life. I don't like that he's treating me like this.” And so I just continued walking down Shenandoah Avenue, walked 3 �downtown, walked over toward Tanglewood and I hitchhiked to North Carolina with seven dollars in my pocket in November. Had nothing with me except seven dollars and I was going to go as far away as I could, and I got to North Carolina, Greensboro, and I called back home to my sister, who did know that I was gay, and I said “tell mom and dad I'm gay and see if they love me, see if they want me to come home, see if they want me to go on.” She said “okay, call back at 3 o'clock”—this is way before cell phones. So I called back at 2 o'clock and she said “everything's fine, come on home, they're coming down to get you stay right where you are.” So I sat around, waited for them, they picked me up at the Krispy Kreme, everybody knows the Krispy Kreme in Greensboro. So they picked me up, and on the way home I slept, cause I hadn’t slept in a day or so, and I get home and I walk in the door and I said “well, I'm going to bed, I'll see you guys later.” And dad said "sit down we need to talk" [in low baritone voice]. So I sat down, and I said “what do we need to talk about?” He said “why did you hitchhike to Greensboro?” My sister had not told them anything and ambushed me and I was sitting there having to just let it all out, so I told my dad that I—short story—I just said “if I see a guy and a girl walking down the beach I'm going to look at the guy.” He said “well, all you need to do is be with a girl and you'll be okay.” I said “that'll work no more than you being with a guy is going to change you.” Anyway, we were friendly, and they accepted me. And five or six months later he passed away and mom loved me. I think she was disappointed in the fact that I couldn't give them children on that side, cause I'm the only son, but that's when they found out and that was 1984. 9:14 HT: okay, well thank you for sharing that with us. So you did talk about the police, like your friend was a police officer, how in that time did the police affect people that were gay specifically? Did they target them? Did you have any experience with that? 9:30 RS: I didn't have it in Richmond. There's a place there, it's a World War II memorial, called the Cariline or the Carilion and it's a huge monument that's rather phallic-looking,1 but anyway that's where all the gay people went to meet, so I met several people there. When I came back to Roanoke, that's where I noticed some of the [police] stings and changes in the parks that tried to alleviate people being gay basically. We did have the bar The Park but only open 3 or 4 days a week. The only other place to meet folks were in parks, and they [the police] would do stings and set people up, and put undercover cops out there, and if you approached them you’d get arrested. At one point I think they arrested 23 people in one night. One sheriff took over several years ago and cleared all the brush up the side of Highland Park overlooking the railroad track by the dog park so that guys couldn't go over there in the bushes or if they did they'd be seen. So they were doing everything they could to eradicate gayness like they couldn't do that but they just wanted to get it out from in the open and off the streets so to speak. There was also an area around, well it's across the street from Elmwood Park between the park and the interstate and there's a little L street in there and they called that the Butcher Block, and there would be boys there every night.2 And you could go over, pick up the one you wanted, talk to them a little bit, take them somewhere and bring them back. But there, toward I guess 1983 or so, the cops cracked down on that and you couldn't find these guys anywhere. 1 The Virginia War Memorial Carillon was built in 1932 as a World War I memorial. It is located in Byrd Park in Richmond. 2 Corner of Bullitt Avenue and 3rd Street SE. Interstate-581 was constructed in stages in the mid- to late-1960s. 4 �Also during, right after that time, the Internet started blowing up and that's where people started meeting folks and it got easier and also a little bit more dangerous to meet people. But the only thing I really remember are those stings. They had a big one in Wasena Park, the neighbors in Wasena Park thought that every gay person was out to molest their kids.3 So the police kinda cleared Wasena Park out, and recently over the last five years they put the greenway in. Which alleviated the possibility or ability to drive from one side of the park to the other and sit and talk, we used sit and talk with our friends for hours. And there was no sex at all, we just hung out there, and they took that road out and you can only walk through there and there was another reason, you know it was for the greenway they could've moved it another way or had it a different way, but I think that was another way to kinda crack down on gayness in the parks. That happened not long after the sheriff came in and had the guys tear up all the trees and bushes over next to the railroad track up the hill [at Highland Park], for people to hide. 12:26 HT: Okay, definitely, so what has your experience with nightlife in downtown Roanoke been since you've been back from Richmond? 12:38 RS: Okay, when I left I think The Park was there but I didn't know anything about it. I rode by it once and it said “private club,” and I didn't really know what that was. I knew we had the Moose club and the Elks club and I said “what kinda club is this private club?”4 So I didn't go in for years. When I got back from Richmond, I had heard about Backstreet and back then Backstreet was a gay bar, right now it's a heavy metal bar or just a bar in itself. But back then being a gay bar, I did my Richmond thing, I pulled up and I watched to see who went in, to see if there was anyone I knew, because I didn't want anyone I knew to know me and get me out at work and get me fired. So I sat there for about an hour, again just getting up the nerve to go in. One night I was there, funny not funny story, I heard about this person, very famous drag queen in town, and that person drove up I knew of them and they were followed by another person that I knew fairly well. And they argued in the street and the person that was the drag queen was going into the bar and the other person ran behind them, arguing with them, and hit them in the head with a hammer. Didn't hurt them very much, they got up and went on in the bar, but that night I decided not to go in. Years later I wound up dating the drag queen person for three or four months. But anyway, the other part of being, the nightlife part, when you went to The Park and it was real busy night, they had a line out the door and the door was on the right side of the building and the building was rather wide, so the line, if it was real busy, the line would stretch down almost half a city block, so you were lined up against the wall. I tried to plan it so I would get there early enough so I wouldn't have to stand in the line. Cause there were fears of people riding up and down the road that were already calling everybody “faggot this” or “faggot that.” And you didn't know when somebody was gonna get a gun and just go pow pow pow pow pow.[imitating the sound of a gun firing] Because we were all lined up like ducks in a row, so that was a scary time because you just didn't know what would happen with the hatred that was everywhere. 3 4 In fall 1998, the police arrested 18 gay men in an undercover sting operation in Wasena Park. The Park opened in late 1978. 5 �14:51 HT: So you mentioned discrimination at work. Like you couldn't let people know that you were gay and you would get fired. Could you explain a little bit about that? Like did that happen just in your field or was it throughout the whole community? 15:06 RS: Well, you heard stories back then of people being disowned by their families, beaten, right around the time it was Matthew Shepard being killed,5 and probably others killed that you didn't hear about, but I didn't feel that at my work once I was comfortable going to the bars, because my boss's brother was gay and I saw him at The Park and I felt a little better about that. So I knew at least my boss accepted me, and then over the years that I worked there, which it was an insurance company, it was Anthem Blue Cross / Blue Shield, they accepted partners on your insurance, all you had to do was prove they lived with you and they would cover them on your insurance even though you weren't married and marriage was not legal then. So I felt better at work over the years but then it was just that initial thing. More so I guess people knowing me, seeing me, going in, riding by and being my friends and hating me. More so than me being fired because right off the bat I knew the boss's son was gay and I didn't think I’d have a problem with that. It was just the fact that friends, you'd lose friends just by telling them that you were gay. Whether you were attracted to them or not because at that time a lot of folks were anti-gay. 16:33 HT: so how did being discriminated against and stigmatized affect your relationships with other people, in this time? 16:42 RS: I didn't have any friends that knew I was gay. At work they may have thought I was gay, but unless I was really really close with them and knew that I could tell them really anything, and it was a handful, I didn't tell everyone, I didn't have gay banners on my desk. I didn't say “Hey, I went to The Park Friday night” or anything like that. One day I was across the street from the office, the office was on the fourth floor, and I was in the parking garage and I had a significant other with me and they kissed me on the cheek as they left, and somebody I heard later on said “who was that guy that I saw you kissing?” It kinda got around that I was gay but I had to work extra hard in my job so that I would be more or less in my brain indispensable, so that if they found I was gay they would go “he's gay but he does such a great job.” In fact I had a guy that was a good friend of mine, I don’t know if he was antigay or not, but he found out from another friend that I was gay and he said “Rodger? I didn't know he was gay,” and then after he found out I was gay it didn't change our relationship because again my work ethic and the way I acted and carried myself at work made me look and seem no different from anyone else. So he was shocked that I was. Some folks don't have that luxury, you can tell they're gay when they walk in the room. They're flamboyant sometimes on purpose, sometimes they can't help it and sometimes it's just them being themselves, and now luckily it's more accepted everywhere. 18:26 HT: So did you have to sneak around your friends with this? Like did you keep a secret for as long as you could? Is that where you're going? 18:34 RS: Yes, I would meet my friends for lunch. I would talk about my friends but I would take about them like a football buddy, even though I didn’t like sports and they knew I didn’t like sports, but it was just, I didn't say “hey, I went out with Joe last night and we had a great 5 Matthew Shepard was a gay college student brutally killed in Laramie, Wyoming, in October 1998. 6 �time in the bed.” I just said “so and so is my good friend,” and sometimes they would see me with that person in the hall or whatever. And so I think that's how I kinda got outed out of myself with my friends showing up at my work and seeing us together. And I didn't have a girlfriend, didn't have a wife, didn't have all the things that other folks that are straight have, so that was the only thing that I can think that would matter. 19:18 HT: So did you ever, you were saying that eventually they just figured it out, did you ever have a specific instance of coming out to your friends or coworkers or anything like that? 19:29 RS: Not really. The ones that gave me the impression they knew either told me they knew and then I could share more with them and we got closer and better friends. I just felt like the ones that kept it hidden that knew, if they didn't change their relationship with me that was fine. As I got older it got to be easier to tell people who I was and what I was because I really didn't care what they thought. I had a friend that was rather religious that moved to Kentucky and it was several months after Facebook started up that I friended her because I said she's gonna see all this gay stuff, well then I finally friended her because somebody said she lives that far away she's not seeing you she's not gonna do anything to out you because you're already out here in town, so friend her, so I did friend her, and she'll comment on a couple things that I say but I don't know that she really likes or shares any gay things that I do. It's not that she doesn't accept me as me but she's maybe not for the cause so to speak. 20:35 HT: definitely. Alright, we're gonna change themes a little bit, can you tell us about the concept of cruising, and what kind of cruising has gone on or went on in Roanoke? 20:47 RS: Well, as I mentioned earlier there was that area called the Butcher Block and they had one in Richmond too but that didn't do well for me because I went by there and I couldn't tell the folks that were cruising and the ones that were people coming out of the library. Here in Roanoke, the area [the Butcher Block], the guys were younger, they were attractive, and usually stood singly in the block as opposed to congregating in a group because a person’s more apt to stop and talk to one person than a group. It was a very exciting time, but you picked up someone and you didn't know if they were gonna hurt you, if they were gonna blackmail you, you didn't know if they were I don't know whatever, or if it would be a fun time. Of course it always cost money, they weren't out there doing it for free and I'd rather pay someone that I'm attracted to, than have sex with someone that I'm not attracted to who's gonna give it up for free. Because the whole idea of sex is enjoying yourself and if you're not enjoying the body that you're with why have it? Now with relationships it's a little different. I've had relationships where I was initially attracted to them and then if they got chubby, lost weight, or if they changed I was still in love with them because I knew them back when I was attracted to them and I got to love their inside as well as their outside. The other part of cruising is people hear the term “gaydar” and it is a real thing, it's kind of like a woman's intuition, it's something that some gay people have. I've noticed being with the [Roanoke] Diversity Center that a lot of folks don't have that and don't know what it is, but you'll look around a room and you’ll see someone and if they're interested and looking back they'll look at you at just a little different way. It's kind of like, I kind of look at it or equate it to the cartoons where the cat’s looking at the mouse and you see the cat’s eyes and it turns the mouse 7 �into a little dinner. You can just tell that person is attracted to you, and so you act on that. Because back before recent times you would see people in a bar, a straight bar or a gay bar, if you went up to them you wouldn't know if they were gay or straight, whether they would beat you up or whatever for approaching them because a lot of them have anger issues and think if they're approached by a gay person that you’re thinking they're gay and they don't want that to intrude on their manhood and it just causes problems. The Park on the other hand has become more straight clientele than gay so you really have to watch and just a little side note about that while I'm yakking, you go in there sometimes and there’s a guy and a girl and they're in a gay bar dancing because it's great music and great fun but the guy’s got his shirt off. Is he trying to attract the girl or is he showing off for the gay guys? I always thought that was weird. And it looks like, if you're a gay guy and you see two gay guys dancing and they're not together as a relationship you might walk by the guy and touch him somewhere where his shirt’s off and it seems like the girl would want her guy to keep his shirt on so that it wouldn't cause issues, but I just thought that was odd and thought I'd throw that in. 24:00 HT: [laughing] That's totally fine. Was there cruising without money without having to pay for it? Because it was hard to find other people around? 24:10 RS: There were other places, the parks were one of them. Highland Park was one of the biggest; Wasena park was the other one. Just about any park in any state becomes kind of a cruising area. You go in after dark, you just walk around. People would be behind trees, they'll be looking, they'll be standing, and it's different from just people in the park who would be laying out on a blanket or whatever. You could tell that they are available or they'd be looking for things. And again it's that scary thing where you don't know if it's somebody that's gonna hurt you or it's an undercover cop or whatever. I used to always go through and if I saw the same person repeatedly, then that's who I might take a chance with, but most of those things were free more or less. There were some hustler people who'd hang out in the parks, and didn't hang out on the block. That kinda went away because the cops cracked down on that. They were arresting these guys in the park because a lot of them were homeless or on drugs or whatever and when they couldn't provide ID or have a car there then the police would take them in and that kinda cleared up the parks. So that the cruising thing in itself unless you go to places like The Park or other gay friendly restaurants, you can't find gay people cruising in public hanging out and wanting sex. You can't find those as much as you could twenty years ago. 25:41 HT: definitely. Do you have anything else to add about cruising that you could think of, any stories? 25:57 RS: Um, only one. I've always cared about people and I picked up this one person one night and drove from downtown Roanoke to Salem where I lived, and my mom and dad were off at the Moose Lodge or somewhere so I had the house to myself. So we went in and the guy laid down on the bed and he had this strange look on his face and I said “have you ever done this before?” and he said “no, this is my first time,” and I said “why're you doing it now?” He said “I need the money,” I said “are you gay?” He said “no, I just need the money,” I said “get up, let's go.” I got back in the car with him, actually he put his clothes on cause we had gotten that far, and we got in the car, I drove him back downtown where I let him off, I gave him the money I was gonna give him anyway, and I told him good luck and not to do things he wasn't comfortable 8 �with, because I wouldn't make anybody do things that were gonna make them comfortable because I know if they're uncomfortable I'm not going to have a good time either. 26:58 HT: Definitely. Are there any nonspecific gay community hangout spots now in Roanoke, that you would..? 27:07 RS: Like gay friendly places? 27:08 HT: Yes. 27:09 RS: Well one is what they call the gay Macado's. It's downtown on Church Avenue, especially the bar area, they accept you as you are, you can sit with your friend, you can hold their hand, you might be able to give them a kiss here and there but they don't kick you out and it's actually no under 18 you rarely see families in there so it's kind of… I'm not saying it's an okay place to be gay and do obscenity things but you don't have kids in there and [you won’t] be offending the families or whatever, if you hold somebody’s hand and they’re not aware of it. That's one of them, lots others are that way. Back in 1988, I went to Billy’s Ritz, it's now the bar called Billy's, and I sat at the bar with my brand new significant other I had just met that night and we held hands hiding under the bar and it wasn't winter time so we had no coats to cover our hands up. So we sat there at a straight bar holding hands, and that was kinda neat but you're always looking over your shoulder to see if anyone was gonna see and make it a bad night for you. But a lot of bars now are gay friendly simply because they know there are so many of us. They know that a lot of us have a lot of money, and they don't want that money to go to some other bar. 28:38 HT: Definitely. Well, what would happen in previous times, like not now, if you were caught holding hands with another man or out in public? 29:04 RS: I don't know that it ever happened to me. I had a guy that I was in love with, that his boyfriend, they broke up, and his boyfriend was hanging around me at a thing we have here in Roanoke called First Friday's. And we went to first Friday's, I think they allow you five beers, we drank the five beers, we went to Subway we had dinner, and up Salem Avenue on the way to Backstreet he held my hand, and I said “Chuck,” I said, “you can hold anything I have at any time but not my hand going up Salem Avenue because I didn't want any trouble from folks driving by.” I would walk on some occasions from my house over near Wasena to downtown or to another park over near Vinton and on the way people would yell out “faggot this” and “faggot that” but they never stopped and it was mostly the way I was dressed because it was summer and I had clothes on that maybe didn't fit my age because my age was a little older than the clothes I wore and that's just kinda me. But yeah, those are the only things I run into, it's not really… [Recording stopped because someone entered the room.] Part 2 (14:50) 9 �0:00 HT: So why don't you tell us about your first romantic experience, first physical experience, first experiences? 0:08 RS: Okay, the first one that happened was when I went to Richmond. I'd gone to Richmond from Roanoke visiting, and I went to Richmond a different way. I used to go up [Interstate] 81 and 64 and I went up [Routes] 360, 460, one of those, I think 460 turns into 360 once you get to Richmond. Anyway, it popped me out over next to that Carilion, Caroline monument, that World War II monument [the Virginia War Memorial Carillon]. And I pulled up and I walked the length of this field toward the monument and when I got there this guy on a bicycle rode by me and immediately did a full circle and came back and parked his bike. And I went up the steps around the back of the monument, and he went around the back of the monument and we got into this little area and things happened. And I was so shocked, that night I was supposed to go to work at 11 and this happened around 9:30 or so and I went home and I fell down on the bed and I just said, “what happened?” and I wasn't ashamed of it. I was shocked and happy but I wound up being a half hour late to work. The very next week I went back to this park, and this monument area, and met this guy and we just started talking. And I get nervous and I wanted some water so he said there's a fountain right over there but there’s a trick to it, so he takes me over to the fountain, pushes the thing with his foot and the water came up like a little trickle and he put his finger under it a certain way and it shot up about a foot and I was able to drink. And I thought that was kind of romantic that he let me have some water and did that for me. I wound up going home with him and we did some things I had never done and he didn't know it was my first time and he turned NPR radio on and at night they do this space music thing. And I just laid there all night again, kind of in awe, “what is going on? what am I doing?” and not so much in I shouldn't be doing it but that I was 26 or 27 years old and these are things I had been missing out on in my life. Because I was shy. I didn't approach people they didn't approach me because I don't look gay most of the time, and the guy went on to sleep. I stayed awake all night listening to music and then he got up and went to work and then I left. The only odd thing about that was, I wore a necklace that had my senior key on it, I guess our logo or whatever on it for our school, and I had to go back to his house a week later and ask him where my necklace was, cause I left it on his dresser. Anyway, I got that and we were friends for awhile and the cop that I mentioned, the cop / security guard I met, I talked to him [the new Richmond boyfriend] about it because I said “what can I do about this?” and I wound up going to a phone that wasn't at my house it was at Toys R Us and called the Richmond police, and I said my friend is a cop for another county and he said he kills people and I’m worried that he’s going to kill my friend and they said “we’ll come by and see you and drop off some things so that you can record some phone calls,” because he called me all the time and would talk about the stuff and “we’ll get some tapes on him.” So they brought the tapes, and I think I’m getting off the question for a second but this is a part of the deal here, so it involved the significant other and the cop and the same people where he broke the door into my house that I spoke about earlier. So the cops came. We had a phone, a huge phone with a receiver, that you pick up and it had a round part for the ear and a round part for your mouth and they put this round ring on the mouthpiece and a wire going to a tape recorder, a cassette recorder, and when he called I cut it on and we talked, sometimes for an hour, and he would tell me all the things he had done. At one point he had worked at Kings Dominion off duty—well kind of an overtime police position—and a cute guy had come into the office and 10 �wanted some hot chocolate, well he supposedly put some kind of powder in the hot chocolate, Drain-o or whatever, and then he sat down with the guy while he drank the hot chocolate and enjoyed it when the guy's nose started bleeding and stuff, and they had to call the ambulance for the guy, because he was just a sadistic cretan freak. So that’s why I went and had the Richmond police look into him. They brought me the items to record him. I recorded about 10 or 15 hours of tape, and then nothing. They didn’t follow up with me. They didn’t do anything, and so I told my, the guy I was [seeing], I guess I was in love with him. I told my guy about the crazy cop, and don’t be alone with him, he wants to kill you, he puts people in plots at his mom’s farm. I said do not go anywhere unless it’s a restaurant. The guy promised the guy, the cop promised guy powder or whatever, and he went out with him. I came home from my job—[as a] currier from Richmond to Winchester—one night and both of them were sitting on my step outside. And he said, my friend said, “Hey, Rodger, I told him you were playing ‘Starsky and Hutch’ with him, I told him about the cops”,” and so I almost went through the floor because I said this could kill me. He said “we need to talk. You betrayed me and we need to go somewhere and talk,” and I said “you stay out here and let me go change and we’ll go to a restaurant.” I said “I don’t trust you in private.” So I changed my clothes and we went to the mall to a restaurant and talked and he said “why did you turn me in to the police,” and I said “because you were going to kill my friend and anybody that hurts someone that I love or care about aren’t going to get away with it.” So he said “I want all the tapes and I want the machine and I want everything you have that they gave you.” So I gave it to them and the police, I called them for more tapes at one point. They never did come back and bring me more tapes prior to that I never heard from them to say, “why, where's the equipment? we came to get the equipment,” it's almost like he took it back to them. He was almost beyond reproach, I guess, because of who he knew and the fact that he was a cop because the detectives never came back and asked me anything about it. Over the years I moved back to Roanoke because of him breaking into the door that day, and I moved back to Roanoke, my friend came to visit a couple of times and I touched base with him. A couple of years ago he was going from Connecticut down to see his father I believe in Florida and he passed through and I met him at the bus station just to say hi and he was still alive so if anything else maybe I brought so much attention to the fact that this supposedly nobody who was a hustler would've been noticed if he was killed and that may have saved his life, hopefully. So that was just one other thing. Going towards your original question about my sexual experiences, the scariest one I was with besides this crazy cop guy, I met him on Craigslist and he worked at a school and he was a janitor or whatever and I met him around 7 or 8 o'clock at night. We went into the boiler room and the room was completely empty. There was a shelf on the side, and the only thing on the shelf was a screwdriver. And then he said “can I tie this little frilly thing around your eyes and kind of blindfold you and tie your hands behind your back?” He said “I kinda enjoy that.” I said “okay.” Well when he tied my hands I could get loose, it wasn't really really tight, and then he put the thing around my eyes, and then we he put the thing around my eyes the last thing I saw was that screwdriver on the table with no other tools, nothing else really in the room, so I'm sitting there and he's making noises and movement and everything but he's not touching me and I'm thinking “is he gonna take this screwdriver and ram it somewhere?” and so after like 5 or 10 11 �minutes of my brain going crazy I lifted up the little cloth he had around my eyes and he did not have the screwdriver thank goodness but he was wearing a teddy. So I think he was embarrassed that he was in women's clothing and that's how he wanted the whole thing to go about, but I was afraid of the screwdriver and I got freaked out. And I said “I'm sorry I can't do this, but it hasn't nothing to do with you being in a teddy.” Anyway that was the weirdest thing, I guess. There's several weird things, but that another one of them. 8:50 HT: Could you explain what a teddy is? 8:52 RS: it's an almost frilly, see-through, lacy thing that women wear to entice their husbands sexually I guess. Being gay I don't know [laughs] 9:05 HT: definitely. Earlier you said something about looking gay, could you explain what looking gay was back then? What that entailed? 9:15 RS: well some folks have a voice that's rather gay, mine’s kinda deep. I would wear ties to work and go to Kmart and they'd ask me if I worked there. I had a mustache back then, my hair was a little darker, most people thought I was a cop. So I just didn't look the part of a gay person and again I don't know what that is. These days it's a little more rainbow. I have a rainbow tattoo now, so depending on what kind of shirt I wear that's exposed, but, you know, I don't hide it. So it's just an overall look, a little feminine, a little prancy, or the term they used back in the day was flaming. And you could just tell folks, certain folks were gay, some couldn't hide it. Some didn't want to hide it. And a lot of the times because they couldn't hide it or wouldn't hide that's what got them beat up or bullied in school and in public. 10:10 HT: was there any like specific clothing that you would delegate as looking gay back then? 10:16 RS: very short shorts, tank tops, and short shorts on older guys, that was the main thing. Sometimes they would do bandanas, in fact back when I was first learning about things in the ‘60s and ‘70s there was a culture of bandanas or they would call them handkerchiefs. If you put them on one side of your pocket it meant one thing, if you put them on the right side of your back pocket it meant another thing. Colors meant different things: which you were into, what you did. That kind of faded away over the years because, I don't know, folks just didn't want to advertise or whatever. But those were prevalent in the bars really before I started going to the bars. But it was heavily into the porn that I used to watch back then, and the books that I would read. It was kind of like the secret message in case the gaydar would work but that was letting the person know what you wanted to do, and that way you wouldn't wind up getting together and not be compatible in the bed or have to waste your night being with one guy thinking you were going to get one thing and he was into something else. I kinda wish that would come back because that was, it's kind of like saying “hi, I'm gay. I like to do blah blah blah,” instead of having to waste time and money and a night with a guy that's not going to do the blah blah blah. 11:31 HT: definitely. So you were talking about identifiers earlier, like the bandanas and stuff, do you remember any specific ones, any specific? 11:42RS: Like what the colors meant? 12 �11:43 HT: Yeah 11:45 RS: well, initially I thought it was just 3 or 4 but it wound up being like 25. They had the solid colors, they had… I don’t know if they had multiple color bandanas back then. But it was mostly where you put them, you put them in your back pocket if you were receiver of sexual things, and the left pocket if you were a giver of sexual things. And I may have those reversed. I think you put them in front pockets for certain other things and we have discussions at the [Roanoke] Diversity Center today. We don't put labels on ourselves because most folks don't like a label. But we kind of have to label ourselves in order for other folks to know… well, I like to know if someone is gay or not because I'm not gonna waste time trying to see if they want to date me if they're straight or if they're pansexual who are folks that are attracted by people's personalities and other things about them besides their looks. There are panromantic, pansexual, gender fluid. There are all kinds of things now. So instead of us being men and women that have sex with men having men and women having women or whatever, we're just human beings and sexual beings and we have sex with whoever attracts us, and that's why I think why people are trying to get away from the labels. I saw just the other day on a website there's some dog tags you can get and there's one for gay, transgender, gender fluid, this that and the other, and you can combine them, put two on thing. And that kind of gives a signal once folks get to know what these things mean and let folks know it's kind of like the hanky situation only its in necklace form and you just wear those to be yourself and identify… make your sexual identity more of an obvious thing. 13:42 HT: Okay. So you can talk about from the past or the present, what kind of gay lingo… is there any kind of gay lingo that you have used, have been exposed to? 13:59 RS: Well, yes, you notice it a lot on the gay [web]sites now. They wanna know if you're circumcised or not circumcised and they just shorten it to “cut” and “uncut” which is kind of gross. But anyway, those are some of the things that come to mind right off. None are really flooding my brain at this second, but I think the question was kind of a shock, but I guess that's it for this moment unless something comes to me. 14:34 HT: definitely. So we’re gonna change a little bit, going… [Rodger wanted to stop and clarify how descriptive he could be with his responses.] Part 3 (13:56) 0:00 HT: So earlier you mentioned pornography. So could you tell us before the Internet and multi-media things like that, how this came about or how you went about accessing [it]? 0:13 RS: well, I took recent trips to D.C. When I was in Richmond, it was only a two hour drive [to D.C.], so I would go up there a lot and buy magazines in bookstores and take them home and we looked at a magazines not for entertainment but I actually get to see the guys that I liked without the shirts that I liked to see and didn't have to approach anybody and say “hey can you 13 �take your shirt off?” so that was a fun thing to do. The other thing that was available was what they called bookstores. At one point they would have books like novels around the front of the store and so that if anyone walked in they could get a novel, and it was a bookstore, but really what it was was a back room. You would get change from the guy at the counter and go back and put quarters in a little—you would go in a little booth, and there was a little machine there—and you would put quarters in. You’d get three choices of videos and you could sit there and watch videos in a little booth by yourself or with a friend and do whatever. They didn't encourage being with a friend but you could sneak them in there. As time grew on the regular books disappeared and it got replaced by actual VHS videos tapes that you could rent from the folks. It was kind of like the porn Blockbuster. Folks remember back in the Blockbuster days. You had a membership, you could rent those movies bring ‘em back in two or three days and that's how you accessed porn back then. Those places still exist and they've changed drastically. At some point the police made them change the doors. They would chop them off so that were just three or four foot doors. You could see people's feet. You could see two people in there or whatever, so it kind of got really hard to be gay, and a lot of times when you meet a stranger you wouldn't want to take them home because you didn't know if they were gonna come back later, steal or kill you whatever. So, they were safe in one way but the cities wanted to crack down on them. But you go to places like Cleveland and in D.C. and there's bathhouses and they're legal and then you go in, you get your locker, you get naked, and you do whatever and you do whatever and you leave. I've been to one in Cleveland, a friend of mine took me there. He lived there and I went up there to visit him and it was right down the street. I used to go here to the bookstores and I would go “wow, I'm old, they're old. I'm not attracted to an older person.” So when I went to Cleveland to the bath house I kinda went “okay, I'm here. I'm old, he's old, he's old, he's old. The only difference is they're naked,” so it really didn't help me a lot with the bathhouse, but they had those things going on and they're an outlet for a lot of folks. They're usually open 24 hours. You pay one fee and you can stay for a day or two or whatever. I don't think there's a lot of food so it's kind of not healthy, maybe a snack machine or whatever so if you were in there too long you'd need nourishment besides just a bag of chips. But that's the places that we went and the things that we did. Some people still do those things. Anonymous sex is something people enjoy because they don't come along with the baggage of a relationship or someone hanging around you that you're not attracted to. I knew a person that would go and have sex with anybody and anybody because they, that's what turned them on, being with someone they didn't know attracted them. I was always, “they had to look good,” I had to be attracted to them. So that made me the odd person. 3:44 HT: That's great. So we do understand that you are a gay man. Have you ever had an experience with women? 3:52 RS: I have. I met a guy in Richmond when I just moved up there. He was a high school kid and I really fell for him and moved to his side of town over a year or so because I really wanted to be around him. He worked in my shop, and of course being underage, I couldn't do anything, and he got really close to me. His father had left his mother, his mother worked second shift, he had a key to my house and we palled around together. And we were together for two years as pals, and when I told him I was gay he stayed away. I guess that could be a little slogan, “tell em you're gay, they'll stay away,” but he was one of my closest friends, and then I came back to 14 �Roanoke in 1984 and I was driving around the block—the area that I had mentioned earlier—and saw a guy that resembled this guy in Richmond except he was taller, and he had his shirt unbuttoned and he just looked almost like that guy and I'm going “oh boy, here's the guy that I've liked for years and here's one that is selling it here to me.” So I pulled over. I gave him my phone number because I was busy that night. He called me in a week, we had a month or two relationship, and a 15-year friendship. And we're sexually over the 15 years and he passed away 5 or 10 years ago. But when I found out that he would not… I tried everything I could to make him like me and love me but I found out you can't make people love you and people are gonna love or like you if they want to, and he kinda liked my money, he liked what I did for his kids and his ex wife, and he loved me in his own way, but he didn't love me in the way I wanted to be loved by him. And at one point I said if I can't have him I'll go straight. And I worked at Mill Mountain Theatre box office and there was a stage manager that kind of liked me at a party and we kind of had a 3 month relationship and we had sex frequently. I was still having sex with him on the side, and she wanted to get married. I said “if you're still talking to me in 5 years we'll get married,” because I figured in 5 years she'd find out one way or the other that I was gay, but again it comes back to sexual beings. It was fun having sex with her because sex is just a thing, but I was more attracted to guys. And I remember Star Wars being on TV, years after it was out at the theaters, and she wanted to have sex so we're sitting there on the couch and she's having sex with me on the couch and I'm looking at Star Wars because she wasn't a guy so that's another reason, another way I knew I was gay, and that I liked guys. But we broke up when she moved away and I wrote her a letter telling her the truth. So she found out, kind of a bad way, but she found out I was gay, and that kinda cleared my conscience of it anyway, but she was a sweet girl, and that lasted three months. She's been the only one. I'm close with girls but I don't have sex with girls. 6:49 HT: Definitely. Could you tell us a little about your role during the AIDS epidemic, like during the time it was going on, did anything happen to you? Have you experienced anything? 7:05 RS: Well it was one of those things, kind of like murder I guess, because it only happened to other people. You saw it on the news. You saw Magic Johnson, Ryan White. You didn't know anybody in Roanoke that had it so you just went and did whatever you did, and then all of a sudden I had friends that were HIV positive. I started losing friends that were HIV positive. I became safer in bed and folks say, “I've been tested. I was tested last week and I'm negative,” but you don't know if that's the truth. You have to be safe with everyone. You can't really take their word, because if they had sex with anyone after they were negative then they could be positive and it may not show up for six months. So I treat everyone I'm with as if they are [HIV] positive, not in a negative way but just to make sure that they don't get anything from me, if i have it if hasn't come out yet. And I don't get anything from them in case they don't know one they're lying about it. Because my thing is, because I'm not the most beautiful boy in the room, that if I say that if I were HIV positive, they would go away because a lot of people have a phobia about that. And one of the things that I try to bring up during our events at the [Roanoke] Diversity Center is that HIV is not the only creature out there, and you gotta be careful with all diseases because right now, syphilis is running rampant in Roanoke and a lot of men of color are on the DL or “down low,” so they're hiding things, and them and some white folks are spreading it with their straight partners because a lot of folks are bisexual or whatever. Like I said we're human beings, 15 �we're sexual beings, and we're going to have sex with whoever we're attracted to at any given moment or after any certain amount of glasses of wine or liquor. 9:09 HT: [laughing] Definitely. So you mentioned the Diversity Center, could you tell us a little bit about that? 9:18 RS: Well, I've been with the [Roanoke] Diversity Center a little over two years. I came in quite by accident, didn't know it existed, until the person that was the board chair at the time, Frank House, mentioned to me in a meeting that I would be a good candidate for the board because of the things we had been talking about in a group that I was with or in. And I told him I'm disabled and I have some health issues that I just like to sit around, my favorite thing is sitting around, the less I do the more I like it. I never get bored of doing nothing, doing nothing is my favorite thing. So I said my head-part really wants to do it, my body I don't know if I can do it or if it will hold up. I said but I'll let you know. So he went away and a week or so went by and I'm in the shower washing what little hair I have and I thought “who has ever asked me to be on the Board of Directors?” I said “nobody.” I said “when are they gonna ask me again, at 58 [years old]? Probably nobody.” So I said “let me call me Frank, and see when the next meeting is,” and I did. And I went to the meeting and gave them my spiel of who I was and what I was doing and they took a vote and voted me in as a Board Member at large. And when I joined I got cards of course that said I was with the Diversity Center and I went out in the community, mostly The Park, and I was giving my cards out to everybody to let them know about the Diversity Center because we would have events and nobody would come. Partly because no one knew we were here. Like me. I’ve been here all my life, I didn't know they were here, and they'd been here a couple years when I found out about them. So I was kind of doing a liaison thing after I joined because I was so excited I was on the Board of Directors with an organization that I thought was doing great things. And then an opportunity came up that I could be the Liaison for the Diversity Center and they again voted to have me do that. I got new cards that said Liaison. I went back out to the community, and did the same thing. And over the years as Liaison I was always fair, approachable, and friendly to folks, inviting them to the Diversity Center and just about six months ago, Frank, the chair, decided he was going to step down because his partner was having health issues. And they were both on the Board of Directors, one was chair and one was vicechair, so I started kind of shadowing Frank. Learning what it took to run the center and then on February 16th [2016] the board took a vote between me and a few other folks and I became Board Chair. Since then I’ve changed things up a little bit. We had a film group that showed films every Sunday. And I said, “well if I'm taking it over and I do the same things as before it's going to be the same thing and no one's going to know anything has changed.” So I changed it to the Rainbow Cinema, we had theme months. We have had our film attendance grow from none on some days to 12 or 15 people depending on the film. We have the Mama Mia sing-along every year. We watch the ABBA movie. The more time goes by the more people are coming in. We used to have Rainbow Chats with one or two people sometimes just board members. The last one last week had 14 folks so, we're kind of outgrowing our space and all for the better. And [we] are looking for a space downtown hopefully in the next few months or so, we'll be downtown, be more visible, and have a bigger and better things to have for folks to come and enjoy. 16 �13:00 HT: definitely. So is there anything else you'd like to share with us, any stories, anything we haven't asked you? 13:09 RS: Well, not really, maybe a promotion of such. The Diversity Center has the only diversity camp in the state of Virginia. In fact, Josh Olinger on our board, he came up with this idea, and he heard from a person that was going to one of the camps that he worked, and said, “we need a camp just for us.” So that’s where that idea came about… [Rodger became emotional, so we chose to end the interview.] END. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Rodger Saunders Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Rodger Saunders Interviewer: Holly Thompson Interviewee: Rodger Saunders Date: 25 February 2016 Location: Roanoke Diversity Center Total Duration : 59:02 Transcription prepared by: Laura Groves and Craig Walker Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rodger Saunders; Holly Thompson; Laura Groves; Craig Walker Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SaundersRodger https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2617/Thornhill_Peter.1.MP3 9ddffcb904e2780a029399dc0f61463a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2617/Thornhill_Peter.pdf b1b8e0590828879b07aee1305a95fea5 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Peter Thornhill February 22, 2016 Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Peter Thornhill Date: February 22, 2016 Location: Peter Thornhill’s home in Roanoke, Virginia Total: 56:57 Transcribed by: Martha Sadler and Shannon Mace 0:00 = Early childhood in Lynchburg, Virginia (1958-early 1970s) 4:30 = experiences in the Lynchburg public schools (mid-1960s – early 1970s); growing up as a latchkey kid 9:17 = attending a private all-boys high school in Lynchburg (c. 1973-1977) 13:56 = attending Hampden-Sydney College for a year (1977-1978), then dropping out 19:00 = going back to Ferrum College for his Associate’s Degree (1981) 23:13 = exploring Roanoke’s gay scene (early 1980s); also, discovering a short-lived gay bar in Bedford 27:13 = Murphy’s Super Disco (c. 1978-1979), a gay dance bar in Roanoke 29:52 = The Last Straw, a gay bar in Roanoke; and the gay cruising scene in Roanoke 33:34 = The Park, a dance club in Roanoke; how it has changed over time 39:16 = continuing to commute from Lynchburg to Roanoke for the gay scene in the 1980s and 1990s   1   �43:31 = involvement in the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, a gay activist group based in Lynchburg 46:04 = HIV/AIDS in the Lynchburg and Roanoke communities 49:52 = finding a new sense of community in the twenty-first century Sound Check [00:00:06] GR: Alright, this is Gregory Rosenthal and I'm here with Peter Thornhill. [00:00:10] PT: Hello. How are you? [00:00:12] GR: Good. And today is February 22nd, 2016 and we're sitting in Peter's home in, what is this, Raleigh Court or Southwest? [00:00:23] PR: Raleigh Court. [00:00:24] GR: Okay, this is just a formality to make sure that the people listening to this understand the context of the conversation. And this is an interview for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project: Oral History Initiative. So Peter, if you would like to just say your name and where you grew up and delve a little bit into your early childhood. [00:00:50] PT: I'd be happy to. Peter Thornhill. I grew up in the big city of Lynchburg, Virginia. Lynchburg is technically the buckle of the bible belt with huge influences like Jerry Falwell, and just very South, Baptist, church-going, god-fearing people. So, growing up in Lynchburg being gay was challenging... humorous... and made for the need to drive to Roanoke quite a necessity. [00:01:31] GR: So you grew up in the ‘50s or early ‘60s? [00:01:35] PT: I was born in '58. So, coming out was never an issue for me, I've always been out, so I don't know what that really means to “come out.” I've always been gay, never had a question of whether I wasn't gay, but living in Lynchburg was a challenging time. Jerry Falwell had a hold on the city and if you were anything other than just this right-wing Christian, black or white, you were in a different era, it was a different time. [00:02:12] GR: So what do you mean by you always knew you were gay, and you never came out? Like, when you were three,when you were five, when you were seven? What was that like? Did you have a concept of your sexuality?   2   �[00:02:27] PT: Absolutely. Never had the need or desire to be with a woman. It wasn't part of my makeup. I've always been gay. I knew at a young age my sexual orientation, so it wasn't a struggle to divulge it to anyone, because it was there, and everyone knew. It wasn't talked about... but I have cousins that were gay, so again the genetic—rearing versus genetic issue— you can go either way with that. So we always knew. In the church it wasn't talked about but in private it was very much discussed. [00:03:14] GR: Your parents, did they express their awareness of that to you? [00:03:22] PT: [Bill] Clinton's “Don't ask, don't tell” comes to mind to me. Everyone knew but you just, there were certain areas you didn't talk about with your parents. Parents were never your friends back in that age. You revered your parents. You were deathly afraid of them, and so you didn't discuss sexuality, that was absolutely taboo, whether you were gay or straight, you didn't discuss that with your parents. You discussed doing your homework but you didn't discuss your sexuality, that was just never brought up, it was very much a taboo subject. And then being raised in the church, you weren't having sex anyways, so why even discuss it. Although you were, you still would never discuss it. [00:04:11] GR: What denomination were you raised? [00:04:13] PT: Southern Baptist all the way. I taught Sunday school, and was a deacon in the church, a junior deacon back then because I was younger. But yeah, raised in the church absolutely. Sang in the choir. So yes, that whole Southern Baptist thing. [00:04:30] GR What was school like? Did you go to public school or private? [00:04:33] PT: Oh, school was fun. I attended public school until 8th grade and then decided on my own, I was a very forward child—they called you fast if you were anything but the norm back then, you were fast. So I was a fast child. I think they call it precocious these days—… But I said to my Mom, “I am not going to public school. I will do anything, but I will not to go to public school.” So I applied to a private school, Virginia Episcopal School...for boys...a little humor there… and I decided I wanted to go to public school no more, I wanted to go to private school. I actually went to public school for one day in 9th grade, Dunbar High School, because my scholarship to VES [Virginia Episcopal School] had not come through yet and public school started before private school, and so I went to public school, waiting for my scholarship to come through, literally praying it would come through. And I will never forget, I had a 7th period because I was an accelerated student, and the gym teacher told the whole class, I will never forget this day, “I don't want to catch you fucking in the showers.” Not just to me, but to the entire class. I got home that day and I told my mom, "I'm not going back, I'm just not doing it." And a couple days later the letter came, [saying] “You're accepted, your scholarship is intact,” and so I went to private school. [00:06:14] GR: And so when you were in the Lynchburg public schools, up until the first day of 9th grade, did you experience bullying? Or did you feel like people accepted you?   3   �[00:06:28] PT: Well it's always different, and, I heard several times in my childhood, "So what are you?" and I just finally reserved to the fact of saying, "I'm human." So in this kind of a mixed-culture atmosphere you were somewhat shunned by the African American community because you were light skinned and then you weren't white so you kind of... it was an odd place to fit in or not fit in. My mother worked for extremely wealthy people so I was raised in the projects in Lynchburg called Dearington. It was the first projects for low-income housing so there I was, this black kid in the ghetto having indoor tennis lessons because my mom worked for the people who owned the indoor tennis facility. So I had a very mixed childhood. All of my friends went to public school but I went to private school so I didn't see them for eight hours a day, except on weekends, so TV [television] was my friend. I learned to speak, learned to understand, through television. Mom worked nine to nine, Monday through Friday, and nine to five on Saturday, so my brother and I were latchkey kids. We never said, "Where's Mom? Where's Mom?" Mom was working, it wasn't an option. Mom worked her butt off. And so, we watched television and that was our rearing a lot because Mom was working. So that was my early childhood. [It] was TV. “Dark Shadows” was one of my favorites. [00:08:18] GR: Yeah, in the ‘60s. [00:08:19] PT: Oh absolutely! Angelique [laughter]. I loved her. [00:08:25] GR: I was thinking, when you were in the public schools, elementary school and middle school, you were probably there right around the time of integration. Did that happen when you were there? [00:08:34] PT: Yes, sixth grade. It happened in Lynchburg and we heard these wild stories from Boston, killings and things and we're thinking “what are they doing?” It was just another day for us in Lynchburg. The white kids came to our school, Dearington Elementary. And so that was the first integration, in sixth grade. And then Junior High was like an everyday occurrence, we got bussed, because the junior high was across town in the white section. But you know, I was president of that school, Lakewood Junior High, for many years. [Laughs] [00:09:17] GR: So tell me about the private high school you went to... that would have been in the ‘70s? [00:09:21] PT: Exactly, there were about 350 students, of which two were African American out of the entire student body. So the identity thing still just was never really there. I was all-state in track, all-state in tennis, letterman. And some of the guys who knew that I was gay, it bothered some of them, because you know “there's the gay guy, and he's beating our asses and he's winning medals and trophies and we're not”... so there were a few who got a little upset. There was some racism as well. I remember one guy said one day, "So what are you doing here?" And never once did I ever say what my parents didn't do. I said “my mother’s a maid, my father’s a janitor,” and I was extremely proud of that because “hey, here I am, deal with me.” And I think it was a matter of pride that I did so well in sports. I was determined to be number one. And sometimes I was, so it helped.   4   �[00:10:35] GR: Would you say you were out in high school? Or what did it mean, or like you keep saying you knew you were gay, [so] what did that mean to know you were gay? Was it a place where you could have a relationship with another man? [00:10:50] PT: “Relationship” I think is a little too severe of a word. In your teens, you didn't have a relationship, you had... I'll just say you had a release. But you never had a boyfriend. I was too young for that to happen. I wouldn't have known what that was. But were there encounters? Absolutely. To say there weren't would be not the truth. You had 350 boys in their pubescent years, of course it’s going to happen. Was it talked about? People knew what was going on, but you never really discussed it. Did it happen? Absolutely. [00:11:34] GR: This school was in Lynchburg? [00:11:35] PT: Yes. [00:11:37] GR: So it was a day school, it wasn't a boarding school... [00:11:38] PT: It was boarding and day school, yes. [00:11:41] GR: And your experience was both? Or one? [00:11:44] PT: No, I was a... they called the day students “squatters,” so the boardings and the squatters. I was a day student because the boardings [were the ones who] lived there. But there were some extremely wealthy ambassador’s sons, lawyers and doctors, some very wealthy kids, went there... and you had little old me, the kid from the projects. [laughs] [00:12:08] GR: What were your feelings about religion at the time? Did you find... did you feel like it was in conflict with your sexuality, with your identity? Because you said you taught Sunday school... [00:12:20] PT: Yes [00:12:21] GR: Or did they work together for you? Or did you feel like there was a conflict between the two? [00:12:25] PT: Never a conflict. I kept those two parts of my lives absolutely separate. And I was very good at that. I never had the inkling to say, “God is going to frown upon you because you're gay”... there were others saying it, but I was very strong, pig-headed, independent in my thoughts, that it wasn't part of my life. I of course knew who God was, he created the heavens and the earth, but he wasn't a mean god, he was an understanding and loving god. No fire and brimstone, “you're going to go to hell for anything”... [rather] “be good and treat people well and everything will fall into place.” My grandmother, my dad’s mom, I see her in her uniform from church. She was a very god-fearing woman, but still not fire and brimstone, we weren't raised that way. [00:13:29] GR: So you graduated from high school in '76?   5   �[00:13:33] PT: '77 [00:13:34] GR: '77 [00:13:35] PT: Yes, '77, yes. [00:13:37] GR: So that was quite a time to be in Lynchburg. I think '77 was when Anita Bryant's campaign began. [00:13:45] PT: Absolutely. [00:13:46] GR: And [Jerry] Falwell and all those guys are really starting to get national attention. So what was that moment like when you graduated? What kind of world were you then moving into? [00:13:56] PT: Well, I was living there until leaving an all-boy high school going to an all-boy college. I went to Hampden-Sydney for a year so.... full scholarship, great... the somewhat gifted kid, again from the ghetto, the projects, they were very very nice to me. They wanted me, or needed me, somehow kind of played at those two things, they needed black kids and "Hey, here I am!" Flunked out, lost my scholarship, because—and they actually did a study about me—it was the kid who had never left home who led a very sheltered life, and then got to college and went crazy. And I thought, " Oh, I don't have to go to class, you know I can play poker, watch the Stooges, you know, I'm a grown up now. I'm on my own." And flunked out, lost my scholarship. And my mother still has the little piece of paper from the newspaper, "Student wins scholarship," little piece of news from the Daily Advance. So she's kept that, still kind of goes... little guilt trip... but everything's worked out fine. [00:15:19] GR: So you were there for a year. [00:15:20] PT: Yes [00:15:21] GR: ‘77- ‘78, Partied hard it sounds like... [00:15:26] PT: Oh in my class at [high school] graduation, there were about 45 guys in my class, about half of us when to Hampden-Sydney and the other part went to UVA [University of Virginia] and W&L [Washington & Lee] and that was pretty much it. So you were pretty much almost required to go to one of those schools. And I got into JMU [James Madison University] and should have gone to JMU. I look back now and I probably would have finished at JMU if I had gone there, but no, I had to go to Hampden-Sydney. And my mother expected me to go there. So, trying to please her was part of my life as well. [00:16:07] GR: Did it attract you as an all-boys school? Or was that just sort of an irrelevant fact? [00:16:14] PT: It was like I never left high school. It was like, another day I woke up and I was in another physical location but it was the same kind of guys, it was no transition from high   6   �school to college. It was like I just woke up, and “hey, I’m going to class, same guys I went to high school with right over there,” and the same type of guys: preppy, extremely well-mannered southern boys, with a lot of money. And it was just like high school. [00:16:52] GR: What do you think would have been different at JMU? [00:16:55] PT: A more well rounded cultural experience, different kinds of people from all over the world. So my surroundings would have been totally different. I wouldn't have been quite such an enigma at JMU as I was at Hampden-Sydney. I was still kind of looked at like, "Hmm." You know, because there weren't any African American kids there, maybe three or four? Out of the whole college of eight hundred! So you know still like, "Wow, what's he doing here?" Not from everyone, there were some very kind people who didn't even notice, didn't even care. Again, played tennis, made the tennis team and did all that, and caused some ruffles there because I was self-taught. I learned to play tennis at six years old and then had lessons because we worked for some very wealthy people. It was never a dull moment at Hampden-Sydney. There was always a party on fraternity row. I remember my first weekend drinking Green Goddammits out of a trash can [laughs]. Yeah, grain alcohol, lime juice, and something else. It was a very bad weekend... very bad weekend. Hung over for days. [00:18:27] GR: What kind of career were you thinking of pursuing? Where were you thinking you were going at that point? [00:18:34] PT: Public Relations. I am a natural talker so I thought, "Oh, I need a job in PR." Which probably meant an English degree... Journalism... something along that vein. So that's where I was initially headed. I wanted to work at the UN [United Nations], that was another dream when I was in high school. [00:19:00] GR: So what happened when you dropped out of Hampden-Sydney, what was the next… ? At that point, I know you told me before and we can get to that about going to The Park, which would have been right around that time. When you were in high school or maybe that first year of college, had you ever driven into Roanoke to be a part of the social scene there or was that not yet on your radar screen? [00:19:27] PT: Only after high school. It was a lot of freedom there. You know, being 18 [years old] and out of high school that summer was a big awakening because I was an adult, I was out of high school. Graduated, wow! So I could pretty much do whatever I wanted to do. Not really, I was living at home still, so I couldn't do what I wanted to do. It was a dream. My mother was still, "My house, my rules and you'll do as I say." And she still thinks that to this day, and she's 80 [years old]. [laughs] So after Hampden-Sydney I took a semester off, worked some odd jobs, I think at a clothing store called Leggett. Now it's Belk, but back then it was Leggett. And then went back to Ferrum [College] and graduated with an Associates [degree], went back to school. Wasn't going to do it, but I had a very dear friend who said, "You need to go back to school. You really need to buckle down and go back to school." So I did, got my associates two years later. [00:20:40] GR: Do you remember when that was? Was that 1980? '79?   7   �[00:20:45] PT: College was '81. [00:20:46] GR: '81? [00:20:48] PT: Right. [00:20:51] GR: So you said, when you were still living at your mom's house after graduating from high school, and I guess after Hampden-Sydney, too, did you move back home? [00:21:02] PT: Exactly, yes. While I was at Ferrum I lived at home, too. I went to college that first semester at Ferrum being in the boonies in Franklin County, I went home and said, "Mom, I've gotta have a car. There's no way I can survive down there in the sticks without a car." So I got this '69 Chevrolet Bel Aire four-door, gold, black interior, AM radio... no air conditioning! I will never forget that car, and that was my first car. A lady my mom worked for sold it to mom for a dollar. Ms. McClinton. Mom worked for her, and her husband was a doctor. And I want to back track a little, growing up with my mom, who she worked for, some of the most benevolent people, just kind and generous. We would get hand me downs because they were re-doing their summer house, so there we were in the ghetto with this beautiful furniture because they were very generous to my mother, and they still are. So my brother and I didn't want for anything, and we were very privileged considering that my mother was a maid. And so that helped shape our childhood too, because people were very kind to us. So we didn't see racism, it just wasn't part of our lives, other that the occasional… and that, a lot came from the black community. "What are you?" was a wild question for my brother and I. We'd just go, "What do you mean? Our parents are black. What do you mean what are you?" Just had to do a little backtrack there, to the upbringing. [00:23:13] So then after Ferrum, was my first real job at a restaurant. Hence the drive back and forth to Roanoke four nights a week. I had a boyfriend back then who was bar crazy, so we'd go to Roanoke... Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, every week we made the trek on [Route] 460... knew it well... every week. Because Lynchburg didn't have bars. We would joke, "Roanoke people are heathens, they have bars. We don't have bars in Lynchburg," you know. So we had to go where the nightlife was, because there was no gay life in Lynchburg. And we enjoyed it, it was a lot of fun to make that trek, wasn't fun coming home at two or three o'clock in the morning [laughs] that was a long drive back after a few beers in the Bel Aire. So it was a different time. In the interim of all the drives back and forth, a little bar opened in Bedford. Did you know that? Some guys came down from New York City, and opened a little bar in Bedford. It was "bring your own booze," it lasted about six months, maybe a year. The locals went up in arms and literally closed it down. They protested, and it closed. But we thought, "We don't have to drive all the way to Roanoke now! We can drive 20 miles to Bedford and go to a bar!" Didn't last long. I can't even remember the name of the place, but it didn't last long. [00:24:51] GR: And your boyfriend was also from Lynchburg? Or also lived in Lynchburg?   8   �[00:24:56] PT: Yes, He lived in Lynchburg, as well. Actually he lived in Madison Heights, which is hog town, which is right above Lynchburg. It's a little area called Madison Heights, but still Amherst County, Lynchburg, yeah very close. [00:25:13] GR: So you were in your twenties at that time, like early '80s... [00:25:18] PT: Yes, loving life...and skinny [laughs] and I had hair! [laughs] Life was crazy. [00:25:28] GR: Did you and another man ever go to bars in Lynchburg? Did you ever try that or did you know that that was a “no go”? Or were there places that you could go that were maybe mixed? [00:25:43] PT: Not one. The nightlife in Lynchburg just did not exist. Our whole lives centered around going to Roanoke. We knew we could dance, we could kiss, we could be a couple and not have to worry about anything. It was a gay bar. Imagine that, a GAY bar. So nightlife in Lynchburg may have existed, but I don't remember. I couldn't tell you a bar or anything in Lynchburg at that time, I didn't do that, I worked... but then it was always, "What are we going to wear to the bar tonight?" And that was a big question all the time, because you had to be fashionable. So that was a big part of our lives every day, "What are you going to wear to the bar tonight? Are we going? What time are we going to leave?" So that was our lives. [00:26:32] GR: So how did you, if you recall, how did you become aware that was a gay community in Roanoke? How did that get on your radar screen the first time? [00:26:40] PT: We had heard stories. They were like, "You know where this bar is? You know where this bar is?" Cause other friends had gone, a little bit older, and they had gone to these bars, because they went to Tradewinds. That was before my time, but they had gone to the Tradewinds. We had heard about it and then that closed and Murphy's opened and... The Last Straw. So that's where we really started to go out were those two places, especially Murphy's because Murphy's was a dance bar. [00:27:13] GR: Tell me about Murphy's... [00:27:14] PT: Oh it was fun. You'd walk in and there was a huge sign on the front door and it was the ABC laws: "You can't serve no homosexuals, drug addicts, prostitutes..." and it was right there at the door when you walked in. And we'd dance and Donna Summer was the deal. And the owner of Murphy’s... we'd be cuddled up a little bit, and he would shine a light on you, a flashlight, and he'd say, "You can do it in your car, but you're not gonna do it in here." So we'd be hugging or maybe a kiss, but nothing past that. And so every night it would close... Last Straw, Donna Summer would play, I'm sorry “Last Dance” by Donna Summer would play, and you knew when he played that song Murphy's was closing. And so the song would go off and he'd flip the lights up and it would be dead silence, and you knew, "Out." It was time to go home. I don't remember any alcohol being served there, I don't remember that part of it at all... definitely no food... maybe sodas, but I don't remember any alcohol then... but he had an ABC license. Maybe he had beers, I just don't remember that part... I know we danced a lot. It was our pressure valve, we used to just dance and sing, you know being gay fully at that time meant   9   �having fun. It wasn't that much about sexuality, it was about having fun and just dancing and singing our full heads off, you know? And not caring, just having fun. [00:28:59] GR: What was the crowd like at Murphy's? Were there other black gay men? Was it mostly white? Were there lesbians? Were there straight people? Did it tend towards a kind of demographic group? [00:29:12] PT: Not really that many straight people...I don't remember... Mixed couples, absolutely, because we were a mixed couple, nothing's changed [laughs]. Todd was Caucasian, and so... yeah, lesbians and gay men... Transgender? No, I don't remember any transgender individuals... Drag Queens? Absolutely, but no transgender... I don't remember any transgender... [00:29:52] GR: And what about The Straw? What was the appeal of The Last Straw compared to Murphy's? [00:29:58] PT: [laughs] Well, The Last Straw had the jukebox... and that long bar... and that's where the questioning straight boys would go... so that was a lot of fun, you know playing with them and so that was a whole different atmosphere, it was a cruise bar. Murphy's was a dance bar and Last Straw was a cruise bar, that's where you would go pick up a straight boy and it was funner than hell. It was a whole different clientele. It'd be a little rough sometimes, but fun. [00:30:43] GR: Talking about—you brought up cruising—You know we've talked with other people in the project, the Oral History Project, about Elmwood park, Bullitt Avenue as a place where people would meet up. Did you have any sense of that world? [00:30:59] PT : Absolutely, absolutely. You know it was almost—not everyone did it, some of us did. It released pressure. It was a place to go have fun, and no questions asked, just totally anonymous sexual encounters. Consenting adults. Was it risky as hell? Absolutely, you could get arrested. No more so than now... you can still get arrested of course today, that hasn't changed. But we had fun, you know, it was a part of the gay life. We didn't have places to meet other than, you know, some seedy place or The Last Straw, which could get seedy at times. But it depends on what kind of mood you were into. You know, were you in the mood to go dance or in the mood to go cruise? Sometimes the same thing in both nights. But you did it anyways, you had fun. [00:32:14] GR: So you mentioned the police. Did you ever see ABC folks come by any of the bars? Or like at Bullitt Avenue or a place like that, were you ever aware of the undercover police? Or was that more, in your own experience, you knew that that happened and people talked about it and said be cautious... [00:32:37] PT: Yes, I never saw any ABC agents at The Park or Murphy's or the Last Straw. They may have been there and if they were there, everyone was warned. We very much took care of each other. So any harm of that nature that would come to one of us, we all banded together and were determined to not let those influences deter from our mission, which was to be ourselves in a safe environment. And I keep saying have fun, but that was really what we did,   10   �and we just danced and sang and hugged each other and just carried on, you know? And it was just part of who we were. [00:33:34] GR: So tell me about The Park. You mentioned to me previously that you were at The Park when it opened. [00:33:38] PT: Yes, we were at Murphy's. And we'd heard there was a new bar opening. "How exciting, a new bar! Yay! Let's go, let's go!" And so we decided to just go. And there we were, and the owner said "You guys can come in, the lights aren't on yet, but you can come in." And so we went in and music was on, so you know, we danced. But the disco lights, and all the flashing lights weren't on, so that was our first encounter with The Park. And it has changed in good ways, challenging ways, I wouldn't say bad ways, but it has evolved. It has had to, it has had to cater to a wide variety of people. All money is green, and you can't exclude a certain group of people and pay the bills. You have to broaden your horizons, broaden your base in order to keep the lights on, so it has changed in that manner, where we have less of a "gay" club, we have a more all-inclusive club now. And being an older gay male, you know going to that bar we go, "God, we feel so old," because the guys are so young, and the girls are so young, they're 21 years old. I've got kids older than that! You know, so it has changed in that manner. We're the old guys now. And some of that's nice. We have a certain status that we enjoy, because we're the old timers. There's nothing for us to prove now, we're just gonna have fun. We just go. So it has changed in that manner. [00:35:43] GR: Did you notice any kind of cross-generational community back then in the ‘70s and ‘80s? You mentioned Tradewinds, which I get the sense that some of the older gays went there. Places like Murphy’s, The Park...was that pretty much a young, twenties crowd? [00:36:03] PT: It was, twenties and maybe thirties, but that was the main core of those places. They were younger. I don’t remember really any of the older gay guys from that era. I see a few of them I think but as far as knowing them we just didn’t know them. [00:36:29] GR: So how would you say The Park was different in the late ‘70s and ‘80s than it is today? You said that it’s changed, and hinted that it was gayer. What does that mean and what does it look like in the ‘70s and ‘80s for The Park to be more authentically gay? What was that like? [00:36:51] PT: Well, you know the music was purely disco, Donna Summer, just dance music. And the clothing was absolutely different than it is now, and to me that’s not good but that’s a whole ‘nother issue, the clothing. But the music was fun, it was just loud and lots of Ping! Ping! Ping! and just electric, and people danced for hours and took a break, had a beer, and went dancing some more. You went home sweaty because you had been dancing all night. But was it as clique-y as it is now? I don’t think so. Drag has changed the bar totally too, for good and for bad. So that’s another advent of drag. The Park is a huge drag bar. I judge there, so it’s a big drag bar. [00:38:17] GR: Was it then or there was no drag shows?   11   �[00:38:20] PT: I don’t remember there being any drag shows. There were drag queens, some of the early Miss Gay Roanokes, I still know. But outside pageants on a national level weren’t there, they were all local pageants. But now the national pageants come to Roanoke which is totally different. [00:38:44] GR: So thinking back, because we’re talking about the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, how long did you do the living in Lynchburg and commuting to Roanoke for gay fun kind of thing? And did you make friends with the Roanoke gay community that were part of your life outside of the bar scene, or was it pretty much “we went there Friday, Saturday night, it was a bar scene, and then we went back home to our Lynchburg life.” [00:39:16] PT: Absolutely. The two cities, to be 45 miles apart could not be more different. Conservative Lynchburg and liberal Roanoke. So we had our gay life in Roanoke, the dance clubs, and then we went back to Lynchburg and suffered through all that craziness. Work, school, whatever we did, and then, but we thought “a few more days, I can go dance again.” We would live for going back to Roanoke, back on [Route] 460. I cannot count the times I’ve driven 460. I couldn’t imagine now. But about fifteen years ago I decided to move to Roanoke because of love. And I’ve been here ever since. [00:40:13] GR: So you lived in Lynchburg through the ‘80s ,’90s, up until the millennium? [00:40:16] PT: Yes, exactly. And then finally decided rather than meeting halfway in Roanoke for both of us, we’d live here. Because my partner lived about forty miles the other way, so Roanoke was half ay for both of us so this was where we met. [00: 40:35] GR: They were out in Blacksburg or… ? [00: 40:38] PT: Yes, exactly, in that area. So we decided that this was it, this was halfway. So instead of doing it all over and driving and driving let’s just move to Roanoke. And we did. [00:40:52] GR: How long did the bar scene appeal to you, or did you continue going there in your thirties, or how long was that a part of your life? [00:41:00] PT: We discovered bars outside of Roanoke. We discovered Greensboro, we discovered going to D.C., going to Richmond. And so we got to see, for all intents and purposes, we got to see real bars, who had liquor. The Park didn’t have liquor, it had beer, but we wanted to drink. So going to Greensboro was only 110 miles. We’d rather go to Greensboro than go right down the street to The Park because The Park changed, something happened. And there was a change in ownership, who was leading the ship at The Park and we didn’t like that, or the person who was leading it. Without calling any names, we won’t go there, but we didn’t feel welcome. [00:42:03] GR: When was this?   12   �[00: 42: 06] PT: I’d say, it would be maybe the late ‘90s, early 2000s. We just would rather drive to Greensboro than put up with that situation. It didn’t bother us, we would just get in the car and go, just have fun. So there was a change, there was a huge change. [00: 42: 41] GR: Where there other places that you liked to hang out in Roanoke? Murphy’s was only around for a few years I think? [00: 42:47] PT: For a few years, yes, maybe two or three, four at the most. But that was it, we didn’t go out to restaurants, we didn’t do that. [00:42: 56] GR: I know that there were restaurants that gay Roanokers did hang out at, but that was not part of your… ? [00:42:03} PT: No, because we were Lynchburg boys, so we would stop at the Hardy’s on 460 on the way home. That was our restaurant, we’d do that. But as far as going out, we didn’t have the money to do that, our whole financials were gas in the car to get to Roanoke and then get in The Park and have a few beers and get home. We didn’t have the luxury of going out to restaurants, so we just didn’t do it. [00:43:31] GR: Where you aware of any sort of gay political stuff going on at the time or was that part of your experience, or did that ever come up in conversation? [00:43: 42] PT: Not at all. We just weren’t political. The most political I ever got, I remember, the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, we actually marched at the gay pride parade in D.C. We carried a banner, and that was about as political as I ever got, was marching in the gay pride parade. [00:44:07] GR: Would you say you were involved with the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance? [00:44:10] PT: Absolutely. I used to man the phones, because the gentleman who was president of the Lambda Alliance, I rented from him. And the phone was actually in the house. So it was crazy, yeah, that was part of where I lived at that time in Lynchburg, the old downtown. Harrison Street, beautiful part of Lynchburg. A lot of old houses are down there. [00:44:42] GR: Tell us, so you were manning the phones for the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance on Harrison Street in Lynchburg, What time period do you think this was? [00:44:51] PT: Early ‘80s, maybe right in between that Hampden-Sydney/ Ferrum part of my life, was the Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance, got a little newspaper and everything. A Newsletter, yeah.1 [00:45:06] GR: And you got involved because your Landlord was… ?                                                                                                                         1   The Blue Ridge Lambda Press, the longest running LGBTQ publication in Southwest Virginia. 13   �[00:45:08] PT: Right, yeah because it was right there in my house and Doug said “Can you help us man the phones?” and so I said “sure,” so we would sit there and read a book and the phone would ring and [we’d answer] “Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance” and there was some serious conversations from kids who didn’t know what to do, where to go, or who just wanted to talk. There were some calls “My son’s gay. what do I do?” We weren’t trained by any means, we were just here to listen and be a sounding board. [00:45:40] GR: So there were gays in Lynchburg that were involved in this, and you two met other gay folks at that time? [00:45:47] PT: Right, there were definitely gay people who were a part of it, who helped to man the phones, who we used to have dinners at our house and put on fashion shows, so it was fun. [00:46:04] GR: What about the 1980s, what about HIV and AIDS, if you feel comfortable talking about it. What were your perceptions of that around here in the community in Roanoke and Lynchburg? [00: 46:21] PT: We weren’t… we had heard about it, we didn’t know any people or friends who were HIV-infected at the time, so we had heard about it but it really wasn’t part of the community yet. It was happening, but we didn’t really know about it. Because it hadn’t hit home yet, it wasn’t really a part of our lives yet. [00: 46:52] GR: And eventually it was. [00:46:54] PT: Eventually it was. We had friends who became HIV infected, who passed away because of HIV. So it opened our eyes and we said “it’s happening, so we got to be careful.” I mean you can’t [not] live your life but just be careful. Yeah, we all carried condoms because we had to. We weren’t all going to sit at home and knit and be saints, that wasn’t who we were. We were gonna play, but we were gonna be safe. It was just part of our lives we did it. At the house there were huge bowls of condoms, because we wanted people to be safe, not live their lives in a hole, not having fun, but just be smart about it so, people did. They woke up. They realized it could happen to you, so be careful, be safe. [00:48:02] GR: You said that at the house there was a big bowl of condoms, is there where you were living? [00:48:05] PT: Yes, yeah. [00:48:06] GR: It sounds like a pretty gay house within a conservative city. [00:48:09] PT: It was. It was like a whole, it was like a cocoon, we had our lives there and we would have parties at the house, huge house on Harrison Street, and that’s where people came, was Doug’s house. And we were there to entertain, I guess. [00:48:32] GR: and it sounds like you had a sort of makeshift organizing going on with the hotline and that sort of thing. People have remarked on how during the ‘80s with HIV moving   14   �through the population, people started thinking more about monogamy and less cruising and this kind of thing. It sounds like you’re saying that people kept partying and going out and doing their thing but there was a consciousness about, say, safe sex. [00:49:10] PT: Exactly. What we would say is, you can’t live your life and stop it. You don’t need to stop your life. Just be smart and be aware that it’s not like the ‘70s where we didn’t have those worries. We had to change. We had to adapt our lives because of it. Not stop your life just change and just adapt how you do it. And we did it. [00:49:52] GR: We have about maybe ten minutes left, what do you think are some of the big, what would you say for you are some of the big changes over time, over the course of your lifetime in the way that you have lived your life as a gay man? How has the community changed? How has the experience of being gay changed? [00:50:16] PT: Well, back in the early days, we had a group of friends who, we were pretty tight. It was late ‘70s, early ‘80s, there was maybe ten of us who hung out. We were pretty tight, we were good friends. And then things changed in the ‘80s and ‘90s. We didn’t have that closeness anymore and now, we have a group of friends, about maybe twenty of us, who are thick as thieves, we are very close. We often have separation anxiety if we don’t see each other. We are in group chats that drive everyone up the wall sometimes because it’s our phones ping! ping! ping! ping! ping! because we’re all talking, but we need and want to be around each other. We are somehow, we’ve been brought together. We don’t know how it happened. It really started with four people, two couples, called the boys, and we’re the boys. And if you didn’t see the two of us, you didn’t see the two of them, they would go, “where are the boys?” Everybody knows who they were talking about. We are the boys, and now it’s about twenty of us who we had the majority here in our house this past weekend. Because we have a strong need to be close to each other. And we laugh, sometimes we fight, but no one can come between this group. We’re very protective of each other, and I think something has happened to draw us back to those kinds of friendships again. We’ve gotten a little protective of who gets in the group, because it’s a little out of hand sometimes, but we’re very close. And we enjoy each other. We couldn’t be more different, we are all so different, but there’s something about our strongness together, and we need that closeness, so we thoroughly enjoy each other. There are women and men in our group, who enjoy being around each other, and that’s a huge plus for what’s happening now, with our friendships. We’re inseparable, we really are, we’re as thick as thieves. And we just like being around each other, sometimes too much. Give me a moment to myself, that isn’t going to happen, the phone ping! ping! ping! “what are you doing?” So we’re like “ahhhh….” But we wouldn’t have it any other way, we enjoy it. So, that’s how it’s changed. [00:53:32] GR: is your cohort an all-gay and lesbian group, or is there straight? [00: 53: 36] PT: No, we have straight couples in our group as well, absolutely. Absolutely diverse group. And there is a comfort level that you, you’re drawn together for a reason, and there is a comfort level that we have grown to that people asked us, “why do you always hug when you see each other and when you leave?” And we do, we naturally hug each other. And when we leave, when everybody’s going home, we hug each other again. That’s not seen, but we do, because it’s just, we hug each other. And we say “drive safely, see you tomorrow,” and we   15   �do because that’s who we are. We are a loving group of people and we thoroughly enjoy each other. And our straight guy friends are extremely comfortable around us. Our straight female friends are very comfortable around our lesbian friends. We’re respectful of each other, we don’t cross boundaries with each other, we don’t do that kind of thing. We actually love each other, and it’s wonderful, it’s absolutely wonderful. We enjoy it. [00:55:01] GR: That’s beautiful, when you do think this community, how long ago did this begin to form? [00:55:08] PT: It’s been a long time. The boys have been the boys for eleven years or so. And then the group just started to grow, it just, it is the oddest thing. They just came into our lives and it just kept growing, and so it’s about ten years it’s been that way. And it’s kind of leveled off now, the group is getting so big, but we welcome people in, and if you’re a kind person, and we know pretty much immediately, we’re very intuitive. This group’s very intuitive and very protective of the group. We welcome you in, and we love you just like everybody else. But we’ve had some people who have tried to get into the group and we’re like “ahhh uh uh nope nope” but you know, we can sense that this isn’t going to work. We tell each other quickly “nope nope nope it’s not gonna work,” or we say “he’s wonderful” or “she’s wonderful,” and we hug each other. So about ten years. [00:56:20]nGR: Is there anything you would say to your Lynchburg young self now if you could, you know, go in a time machine and send a message? [00:56:31] PT: Worry less about what are you going to wear that night to The Park, and worry more about building friendships. [00:56:48] GR: On that note, I’d love to thank you for participating in the project. [00:56:51] PT: Absolutely, thank you. My pleasure.   16   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Peter Thornhill Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Peter Thornhill Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Peter Thornhill Date: 22 February 2016 Location: Peter Thornhill’s home in Roanoke, Virginia Total Duration: 56:57 Transcription prepared by: Martha Sadler and Shannon Mace Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peter Thornhill; Gregory Rosenthal; Martha Sadler; Shannon Mace Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ThornhillPeter https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2618/Valentine_Trish.1.mp3 47e083ba7db71e25f58658296126b3f2 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2618/Valentine_Trish.pdf a5635c3190a29a76d3eee0d35c76371e PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Trish  Valentine   February  25,  2016     Interviewer:  Kerri  Dalton  (and  Teddy  Melnik)   Interviewee:  Trish  Valentine   Date:  February  25,  2016   Location:  Fintel  Library,  220  High  St,  Salem,  VA  24153     Transcription  prepared  by:  Becca  Brown     47:57  total     0:00  =  Gender  pronouns  &  transgender  awareness   2:26  =  Transphobia,  including  among  cisgender  gays  and  lesbians   5:30  =  childhood  in  the  suburbs  of  Washington,  D.C.  (1940s  –  early  1960s)   10:57  =  first  experiences  with  cross-­‐dressing  (at  six  years  old)   13:17  =  more  about  her  suburban  neighborhood,  and  her  parents   16:40  =  struggles  in  her  marriage  (early  1970s?)  after  her  wife  discovered  her  cross-­‐dressing;   finding  a  transgender  support  group  in  Charlotte,  North  Carolina  (1980s?)   21:24  =  attending  a  major  transgender  conference  in  Atlanta   23:25  =  shopping  for  women’s  clothing,  and  a  story  about  going  through  airport  security   dressed  as  a  woman   28:20  =  about  her  wife  and  how  they  met   32:16  =  involvement  in  Ladies  and  Gents  of  the  Blue  Ridge  transgender  support  group   34:50  =  views  on  sexual  orientation,  and  the  prevalence  of  homophobia  among  Christians   37:35  =  homosexuality  within  the  Bible   39:28  =  is  gender  identity  influenced  by  nature  or  nurture?   40:51  =  Transgender  acceptance  and  the  public  bathrooms  issue   45:05  =  on  transitioning   47:55  =  discussing  headshots         0:04     KD:  Alright,  it  is  1pm  on  Thursday,  February  25th  2016.  My  name  is  Kerri  Dalton,  I’m  a  Roanoke   college  student  here  with  Trish  Valentine  at  the  Fintel  Library  located  in  Salem,  Virginia.  I  am   conducting  this  oral  history  as  a  public  record  for  the  community.  One  of  the  first  questions  we   were  asked  in  our  class  was  “what  pronoun  do  you  identify  yourself  with?”       0:27     1   �   TV:  The  pronoun  is  the  way  I’m  dressed.  If  I’m  dressed  and  presenting  ‘fem’  then  I  definitely   want  to  be  a  ‘she’  and  ‘her,’  okay?  I  don’t  want  to  be  a  ‘he’  or  ‘it’  [laughs]  or  anything  else.  If   I’m  dressed  as  male  than  I  identify  as  male.  So  the  pronouns  I  would  like  to  match  the   presentation.       0:50     KD:  Okay     0:52     TV:  Hey,  even  transgender  people  among  other  transgender  people  slip  up  all  the  time.  Don’t   get  too  offended,  don’t  offend  yourself,  don’t  be  too…  if  you  use  the  wrong  pronoun  I’m  not   going  to  be  offended.     1:05     KD:  That’s  my  biggest  fear.     1:07     TV:  No,  out  in  public  if  you  were  sitting  around  the  table  and  the  waitress  was  there  it’s  really   nice  to  have  the  right  pronoun.  It’s  heaven  when  a  waiter  comes  up  and  says  “ladies,  what  can  I   get  you?”  you  know?  Then  you  are  really  okay.       1:23     KD:  Yeah.  Why  did  you  agree  to  participate  in  the  project?     1:28     TV:  Mainly  because  anything  that  gives  people  that  are  not  transgender  a  better  understanding   of  what  transgender  is,  anything  like  that,  I  have  to.  I  just  have  to.  You  know,  I  kind  of  am  of  the   opinion  I’m  going  to  attack  everyone  one  at  a  time.  I’m  not  going  to  convince    a  whole  crowd  of   people,  but  if  I  can  be  nice  to  people  and  they  can  see  me  as  transgender  and  they  like  me  and   they  get  along,  that’s  just  one  more  step.  That’s  one  more  person  on  this  side  of—the  right  side   of  history.  So,  I  just  want  to  share  with  the  objective  of  bringing  people  to  be  more  accepting  of   people  who  are  different  than  they  are.  You  know,  even  gays  and  lesbians  don’t…  some  just   don’t  want  anything  to  do  with  us,  some  don’t  mind  but  they  don’t  understand.  So  anybody  I   can  meet  is  fine.       2:26       2   �KD:  Do  you  think…  you  were  talking  about  gays  and  lesbians  not  accepting  your  group,   transgender  groups?     2:35     TV:  Yeah,  I  think  they  struggle  a  lot.  And  they  have  done  a  lot  in  their  struggles  and  sometimes   they  feel  that  transgender,  the  T  in  the  LGBT,  is  kind  of  riding  on  their  coattails.  Just  like  the   blacks  do  not  like  the  LGBT  community  to  say  “we  want  our  civil  rights,  too.”  “No,  no.  Civil   rights  are  black  and  white,”  [they  say].  Sometimes  they  are  being  discriminatory  against  the   LGBT  community  because  they  have  been  through  the  struggle,  they  have  gained  acceptance,   and  I  guess  they  resent  us  because  they  have  had  the  hard  battles.  It’s  strange  but  everybody  is   looking  for  somebody  to  look  down  on.  I’m  looking  for  somebody  to  look  up  to.  I’m  always…  I’ll   put  it  this  way:  I  was  president  of  my  own  company  for  many  years,  but  my  business  card  never   had  the  word  president  on  it,  it  had  the  word  associate.  I’m  not  into  titles;  I’m  just  into   accepting  people.           3:45     KD:  That’s  good.  So  you  would  say  that  was  what  you  would  like  to  gain  out  of  this?  You  would   say  that  everybody  is  pretty  much  the  same?  Everyone  has  the  same  battles?     4:01     TV:  Well,  you  know,  if  you  drop  a  bunch  of  marbles  on  this  table  and  you  figure  out  how  far   they  are  from  where  you  dropped  them,  it’s  going  to  form  a  bell  curve.  [gesturing  on  the  table]   So  there  are  very  manly  men,  very  feminine  females  and  they  kind  of  sit  here.  As  you  move   away  a  little  bit,  then  you  find  a  certain  man  is  a  little  bit  more  feminine,  you  find  a  woman  who   is  a  little  more  masculine.  Until  finally  you  find  a  woman  who  has  a  lot  of  masculinity  and   identifies  as  masculine  and  you  find  a  man  who  is  feminine  and  identifies  as  feminine.  So  you   get  this  bell  curve.  Think  about  this,  think  how  lucky  we  are  to  be  born  in  America.  And  then   think  about  how  lucky  we  are  to  be  born  in  this  time  in  America.  So,  a  lot  of  things  are  just   about  luck.  I’m  blessed  by  being  transgender.  I  love  being  transgender  because  I  know  a  lot   about  the  feminine  side  of  things.  I  don’t  pretend  I  will  ever  know  what  a  woman  knows.  But   I’m  going  to  be  woman-­‐like.  But  I  know  I  will  never  be  a  woman.  So  I  just  think  everybody  has   something  about  them  that  is  a  little  bit  different  than  everybody  else,  and  why  you  should  look   down  on  somebody  because  of  that  is  beyond  me.  So,  that’s  my  feelings.       5:30     KD:  That’s  a  good  feeling.  Can  we  move  back  in  time  when  you  mentioned  how  blessed  we  are   to  live  here  in  America,  and  we  are,  times  are  changing.  Have  you  lived  in  Virginia  your  entire   life?     5:41     3   �   TV:  No,  I  was  I  was  born  in  Washington  DC  about  a  block  from  the  capital  building  and  then   lived  about  a  mile  or  two  outside  the  District  of  Columbia  into  Maryland  so  I  went  to  school  in   Maryland  schools.  Went  to  college  at  NC  State  and  then  moved  to  Virginia  to  take  a  job  when  I   came  out  of  college,  so  I’ve  been  here  probably  longer  than—I’m  twice  your  age—about  forty-­‐ seven  years  so  [laughing].  I  got  here  as  fast  as  I  could.  I  love  being  down  here.  I  would  never  go   back  up  to  DC  or  Maryland  again.  North  Carolina  and  Virginia  are  both  wonderful  states.  So,  I’ve   been  here  forty-­‐seven,  forty-­‐eight  years.       6:32     KD:  Can  you  tell  me  a  little  bit  about  what  it  was  like  growing  up  in  these  locations?     6:40     TV:  Growing  up  in  the  DC  area  was  a  ball  because  when  I  was  young  there  wasn’t  a  lot  of   criminality,  I  guess.  At  ten  years  old  I  could  take  a  bus  downtown,  I  did  this  in  the  winter  a  lot   because  there  was  a  hotel  that  had  a  public  swimming  pool  inside.  I’d  ride  the  bus  downtown,   pay  ten  cents  to  go  swimming  and  come  back  by  myself.  Now  you  can’t  let  a  ten-­‐year-­‐old  kid  in   a  big  city  now  get  on  the  bus,  go  ten  or  fifteen  miles,  and  expect  him  to  come  home  alive  or  all   in  one  piece.  That  was  a  lot  of  fun.  DC  is  a  very  small  town  compared  to  New  York  or  Chicago  or   LA.  So  it  was  fun.  It’s  a  hick  town.  It  really  was.  It  was  a  long  time  before  the  Kennedy  Center   was  built…  and  the  joke  in  DC  was  if  you  want  to  have  a  good  time  in  DC,  go  to  New  York.   [laughs]  That  was  the  standard  because  there  wasn’t  a  lot  of  plays  or  outlets  at  that  time.  I   enjoyed  it.  I  was  probably  one  of  the  last  generations  to  live  in  DC  and  be  able  to  move  about.   You  go  there  now  and  all  the  barriers,  because  they  are  terraced,  you  can’t  drive  near  buildings.   You  know,  I  could  get  anywhere  in  DC,  I  knew  where  everything  was.  I  drove  right  into  the  riot   area  of  the  riots  back  in  the  sixties  and  knew  how  far  to  get  into  the  riot  area  and  back  out.  But   now  everything  is  just  terraced  and  running,  I  guess,  because  they  have  changed  our  lifestyle.   But  back  then  it  was  fun.  Like  I  said,  my  generation  was  probably  one  of  the  last  generations  to   really  enjoy  growing  up  in  [the]  DC  area.     8:37     KD:  That  sounds  like  a  good  time.  Can  you  tell  me  about  the  hangout  areas?  Where  did  you   hang  out  the  most?     8:47     TV:  DC’s  liquor  laws  were  such  that  at  eighteen  you  could  drink  beer  or  wine.  My  uncle  owned   one  of  the  most  liberal  restaurants  in  town  so  we  could  get  in  there  at  sixteen  and  have  a  drink   or  two  so  we  hung  out  there.  And  then  we  would  go  down  to  M  Street  where  some  of  the  bars   were  where  you  could  listen  to  music  and  things  like  that.  Growing  up  it  was  mostly  playing   sports:  playing  football,  swimming  competitively,  and  things  like  that.  We  hung  out  in  Southeast     4   �Washington  DC,  which  is  a  very  dangerous  place  now  but  back  then  it  was  not.  Is  that  what  you   were  asking?     9:35     KD:  You  are  doing  fine.  Can  you  tell  me  about  your  friends?  What  did  you  guys  do?  Where  did   you  guys  go?  Who  did  you  hang  out  with?     9:44     TV:  On  our  street  there  was  one  girl  our  age  and  there  were  nine  of  us  boys.  So  if  you  wanted  to   play  ball,  if  you  wanted  to  go  out  and  have  a  rock  fight  or  do  whatever  it  is  you  wanted  to  do,   then  you  would  just  walk  out  onto  the  street  and  you  had  things  to  do.  Most  of  my  friends  were   into  sports.  We  didn’t  smoke,  we  drank  a  little  bit  in  high  school.  Everybody  was  into  one  sport   or  the  other  and  I  swam  in  the  summer  and  some  of  my  other  friends  played  baseball,  football,   but  when  we  were  home  we  were  playing  football  in  the  street,  baseball  in  the  street,   whatever.  Streetball,  that’s  what  we  did  a  lot  of.  Growing  up,  just  about  everybody  on  this  long   street  was  male.       10:32     KD:  Do  you  still  keep  in  touch  with  these  friends?     10:35   TV:  Mm-­‐hm.  My  next  door  neighbor  who  is  retired  to  Florida,  I  keep  in  touch  with  him  and  his   wife.  And  then  the  guy  that  lived  on  the  other  side  of  him  we  touch  base  every  once  and  a   while.  So  not  often  but  the  one  next  door,  he  and  his  wife  came  by  last  year  and  spent  a  few   days  with  us.  So  I  keep  in  touch  with  a  few.       10:57     KD:  Did  they  know…  did  you  transition  around  that  time?       11:01     TV:  Now  remember,  I’m  not  transgender  I’m  a  cross-­‐dresser.  (KD:  right,  sorry)  So  I’m  fully  male.       11:06     KD:  So  did  you  cross-­‐dress  at  that  time?     11:09       5   �TV:  I  started  cross-­‐dressing  at  six  years  old.  (KD:  ah,  okay)  My  mom  and  dad  worked  and  I  was  a   latchkey  kid  so  when  I  came  home  from  school  I  could  get  into  mom’s  makeup,  mom’s  clothes,   and  then  have  to  remember  “okay,  this  bra  was  put  here  and  this  lipstick  was  put  over  here.”   So  I  had  to  be  careful  to  put  everything  back.  I  never  knew  if  my  mom  and  dad  knew.  Mom  did   dress  me  as  a  woman  one  time  on  Halloween.  I  had  a  big  Spanish  skirt  on  and  I  remember  the   white  pull-­‐over-­‐your-­‐shoulders  blouse.  I  don’t  know  if  it  was  her  idea  for  me  to  go  out  trick-­‐or-­‐ treating  as  a  girl  or  if  it  was  my  idea,  but  that  is  a  very  vivid  memory.  That  was  probably  in  fifth   or  sixth  grade.  I  remember  from  the  time  I  was  six  or  seven  when  my  parents  weren’t  home   going  through  mom’s  stuff.  I  was  an  only  child  so  I  didn’t  have  any  sisters  at  all  so  I  had  to  go   through  her  stuff.       12:14     KD:  That’s  bizarre  to  think.       12:16     TV:  But  if  you  talk  to  a  hundred  transgender  [people]  there  are  some  that  never  put  on  a  dress   until  they  were  in  their  fifties  and  sixties.  I  don’t  know  what  they  [unintelligible]  then  but  most   of  them  have  the  same  history.  It’s  young,  it’s  keeping  it  to  themselves,  it’s  dressing  in  their   sister’s  or  their  mom’s  clothes  and  then  putting  it  away  real  quick  because  you  might  hear   footsteps  at  the  door  or  something.  It  was  all  guilt,  it  was  a  guilt  trip,  of  course  it  was  taboo.   You  thought  you  were  a  real  sinner  or  you  thought  you  were  really  doing  something  wrong  back   then.       12:51   KD:  Did  your  parents  ever  find  out  that  you…     TV:  Don’t  know.  I  don’t  know.  I  really  don’t.  I  got  to  believe  that  mom  had  suspicions.  I  think  she   would  see  some  of  her  clothes  maybe  disorganized  from  the  way  she  left  them  or  some  of  her   makeup  being  used,  I  don’t  know.  We  never  talked  about  that  so  I  don’t  know.       13:17     KD:  Can  you  tell  me  a  little  more  about  what  your  parents  did?     13:20     TV:  We  were  probably  either  upper  lower-­‐class  or  lower  middle-­‐class.  My  dad  was  a  meat   cutter,  my  mom  was  a  nurse.  So  mom  had  attended  three  years  of  college,  at  that  time  it  took   three  years  to  get  your  nursing  degree  instead  of  four,  so  she  was  pretty  much  early  on  ahead   of  her  times  as  being  an  independent  woman  making  her  own  money,  living  her  own  life  until   she  met  dad  and  got  married.  Even  then  she  continued  to  work  until  she  died,  until  she  retired   rather.  It  was  interesting.  Our  community  was  kind  of  funny.  It  was  a  hilly  community.  The     6   �doctors  and  lawyers  lived  up  here,  we  lived  in  the  middle,  and  down  at  the  bottom  near  the   creek  that  separated  us  from  Washington  DC  was  some  of  the  smaller  houses  so  it  was  almost   stratified.  (KD:  tiers)  Yeah.     14:19     KD:  Wow,  I  need  to  visit  this  place.       14:22     TV:  I  almost  got  caught  one  time.  The  first  time  I  ever  went  outside  of  the  house,  with  makeup   and  clothes  on.  It  was  about  11  o’clock  one  night  and  I  rode  around  and  when  I  was  coming   back  to  my  driveway,  my  next  door  neighbor  and  I,  my  best  buddy,  his  dad  and  my  dad  built  a   common  driveway  between  the  two  houses,  and  I  was  just  coming  up  the  hill  to  the  driveway,   here  he  comes  home  from  a  date,  so  I  pull  my  car  to  the  side  of  the  road,  dive  out  of  the  car,  go   in  the  back  door  [of  the  house],  get  undone,  and  then  go  back  and  retrieve  the  car.  He  told  me   years  later  he  knew.  He  asked  me  one  time.  We  were  probably  about  30  years  old  and  he  said   “still  wearing  your  mom’s  clothes?”  I  should  have  been  a  little  bit  braver.  I  should  have  told  him   “no,  I’ve  got  my  own  now.”  [laughs]  So  that  was  the  only  time  I  got  caught  until  I  was  married.       15:20     KD:  Were  you  afraid  at  that  moment?  I’m  guessing  you  were  since  you  dove  out  of  the  car.     15:24     TV:  No  I  was  terrified!  [KD:  (laughing)  what  was  going  through  your  mind?]  Terrified.  One  of  the   first  things  you  think  about  yourself  when  you  are…  back  then  it  was  a  transvestite,  we  didn’t   know  crossdressers,  we  didn’t  know  transgendered.  And  look  at  my  initials.  Transvestite:  TV.   Trish  Valentine.  And  I  picked  that  name  long  before  I  really  understood  crossdressing  and  what   a  crossdresser  was  and  that  I  was  different.  But  what  you  do  think  of  at  a  young  age  and  in  high   school,  you  think  you  are  the  only  one.  You  think  that  nobody  else  is  doing  this  stuff,  you  never   see  anybody.  I  was  on  a  business  trip  out  to  LA  one  time  and  I  knew  they  did  a  lot  of  gender   exploration  and  I  called  them  and  said  “you  know  if  you  help  me  out,  I’ll  let  you  interview  me.   I’m  a  transvestite.”  They  kind  of  laughed  and  hung  up.  I  called  them  like  I  was  the  only  one,  like   this  was  going  to  be  a  big  thrill  for  them,  they  are  finally  going  to  meet  a  transvestite,  in  L.A.,   right?  [laughter]  So  you  think  you  are  the  only  one.  You  really  hide,  you  have  to  hide   everything.       16:40     KD:  You  introduced  your  fear.  I  was  wondering  what  the  most  difficult  period  of  your  life  was.       16:48     7   �   TV:  It  was…  when  you  have  a  lot  of  projects  when  you  are  in  school,  college,  you  know  what  it’s   like.  You  have  the  pressures  and  you  are  always  busy  so  your  mind  doesn’t  wander  too  much   towards  dressing.  But  after  I  was  married,  I  kept  my  stuff  in  a  black  bag.  My  wife  bought  a  wig   when  we  were  married  about  a  year  or  two.  I  had  never  had  a  wig.  I  had  always  put  maybe  a   scarf  or  something  on  my  head.  And  so  I  had  waited  until  about  2  or  3  o’clock  in  the  morning.  I   had  to  try  that  wig  on!  So  I  put  the  wig  on  and  got  into  her  makeup  and  got  dressed  in  the   bathroom  then  I  heard  [knocking  sound  on  the  table]  then  I  heard  a  knock  on  the  door.  We  had   a  child,  1  year  old.  So,  I  was  discovered.  I  wouldn’t  say  caught,  caught  sounds  like  you  have   done  something  illegal.  I  was  discovered.  She  discovered  that  I  was  a  crossdresser  after  one   year  of  marriage,  so  she’s  known  for  46  years.       So  the  difficult  time  was  when  I  did  want  to  dress  more,  maybe  in  my  forties,  I  just  wanted   some  freedom,  needed  some  time,  I  needed  some  Trish  time.  It  was  hard  to  get.  It  was  hard  on   her  and  hard  to  get  the  kids  somewhere.  I  thought  about  suicide  then.  I  said  “this  is  just  not   right.”  I  would  imagine  most  transgender  people  at  some  time  in  their  life  they  have  given  a   thought  to  that.  Until  they  figure  out  they  really  are  blessed  and  that  it’s  a  wonderful  life.  So  my   wife  and  I  found  a  psychiatrist  up  in  Charlottesville.  We  were  scared  to  even  talk  to  somebody   in  Lynchburg.  Lynchburg  is  where  we  were  living.  We  went  to  a  psychiatrist  pretty  much  as  our   choosing.  It  was  kind  of  nice  because  it  took  an  hour  or  more  to  get  up  to  the  Charlottesville   area  where  he  was.  That  gave  us  an  hour  to  talk  about  what  we  were  going  to  talk  about.  Then   we  would  be  with  him  for  50  minutes  and  that  would  give  us  an  hour  and  a  half  to  ride  home,   maybe  stop  and  get  lunch  and  talk  about  what  we  did  talk  about.  So,  my  motive  for  going  to   him  was  to  make  sure  he  was  able  to  really  make  my  wife  understand  that  this  isn’t  going  away.   You  don’t  just  stop  being  transgender  no  more  than  you  stop  being  heterosexual  or  you  stop   being  homosexual  or…  Whatever  it  is  at  5  or  6  years  old  that  is  what  you  are  going  to  be.  I  think   she  really  understood  but  having  somebody  else  say  it  besides  me  helped  a  lot.  And  then  he   told  me  “you  need  to  join  a  transgender  group.  You  need  to  do  that.  I  have  a  patient,  he  is  an   airline  pilot,  and  it  is  really  easy  for  him  because  once  a  month  he  jumps  on  a  plane  free,  goes   out  to  San  Francisco,  and  spends  a  weekend  dressed  with  his  girlfriends  out  there.”  And   girlfriends  meaning  TG  girls.  Do  you  know  the  term  “GG”?  [KD:  No,  what  is  it?]  …  girl.  [KD:  what   is  it?]  Generic  girl,  born  girl,  biological  girl,  generic  girl.  So  you  have  GGs  and  you  have  TGs,   transgender  girls,  and  GGs.  So  he  would  go  out  with  his  TG  friends,  transgender  girls  and  spend   the  weekend  and  all.  He  says  “you  need  to  find  a  place.”  So  at  the  time  we  were  living  in   Lynchburg,  just  think  about  how  conservative  Lynchburg  is  largely  due  to  the  church  there,   there  is  no  way  that  you  are  going  to  find  a  psychiatrist  or  join  a  group  of  other  transgender   [people].  I  don’t  even  know  how  I  would  have  found  them.  So  we  got  on  the  internet  and  we   found  a  group  in  Raleigh,  found  a  group  in  Greensboro,  found  a  group  in  Charlotte.  I  talked  to   the  group  in  Charlotte,  so  we  would  go  down  there,  monthly  to  their  meetings,  and  spend  the   weekend  in  Charlotte.  Kappa  Beta  was  the  name  of  the  group  [spells  it].1  It  was  the  girls  group                                                                                                               1  Kappa  Betta  was  founded  in  1988  in  Charlotte,  North  Carolina.  The  organization  is  now  known  as  the  Carolina   Transgender  Society,  http://carolinatransgendersociety.com       8   �down  there.  They  had  been  there  for  a  number  of  years.  It  was  a  pretty  good  sized  group:  20  or   30  people  in  the  group.  That  helped  a  lot.       21:24     KD:  So  as  equally  as  difficult  as  this  period  was,  you  feel  like  it  helped  you  too?     21:28     TV:  Yeah,  to  me  the  difficulty  was  before  meeting  the  psychiatrist,  and  then  the  easy  part  was   coming  out  of  that.  We  would  go  up  and  probably  about  4  or  5  times  we  weren’t  scheduled  and   we  would  just  call  and  say  “hey,  we  want  to  come  up  again,”  so  we  would  go  up.  It  wasn’t  like   we  were  meeting  every  2  weeks  or  2  times  a  week  or  anything  like  that.  We  maybe  met  with   him  once  a  month.  The  first  thing  he  suggested  we  do  was  go  to…  the  largest  transgender   conference  in  the  United  States,  it’s  held  in  Atlanta.  It’s  for  TG  girls  and  TG  guys.  My  wife  and  I   went  down  and  spent  a  week,  and  it  was  the  first  time  I  had  ever  spent  a  week  dressed.  It  was   heaven.  Everybody  there  was  transgender  and  we  took  over  the  whole  Sheraton  [hotel]  I  mean   there  were  like  800  people  there  every  year  it  is  held.  So  he  suggested  we  go  down  there  first   and  then  find  a  group.  Then  life  became  better.  My  wife  was  reluctantly  tolerant  about  my   dressing  but  it  became  easier  for  her  as  she  understood  that  I  wanted  to  dress  more  than  I  was   dressing  at  that  time.  So  I  was  allowed  to  dress  more  and  then  finally  getting  out  of  the  house   and  joining  a  group  and  going  to  a  meeting,  driving  all  the  way  to  Charlotte  dressed  and  back   dressed,  spending  the  whole  weekend  dressed.  That  was  nice.  The  whole  world  turned  upside-­‐ down  once  we  got  some  good  input  from  the  doctor.  Southern  Comfort  is  the  name  of  the   yearly  convention  down  in  Atlanta  and  it’s  huge.2       23:14     KD:  I  was  going  to  ask  about  that  but  I  wasn’t  sure,  because  I  have  heard  about  it  but…     23:25     TV:  I  don’t  go  to  group  meetings  anymore  and  rarely  get  on  the  internet  to  find  other  girls.  I   think  people  like  Virginia  and  I,  we  call  each  other,  we  still  do  things  together.3  It’s  much  more   fun  doing  something  normal:  going  out  to  dinner,  not  going  to  a  meeting  and  sitting  in  a  hotel   room  with  20  other  transgender  girls.  That  got  to  be  old  pretty  quick.  I  go  every  once  and  a   while.  I  went  down  to  Nashville  recently  to  meet  some  girls  I  talked  to  online  for  years  and   years.  We  did  that  a  couple  of  months  ago,  but  not  as  a  constant.  It’s  much  more  enjoyable   doing  things  a  normal  woman  would  do.  I  go  shopping.  I  love  Dress  Barn.  Dress  Barn  I  guess   trains  their  salespeople  to  be  very  accepting.  It’s  something  that  women  like  in  a  dressed  man…                                                                                                               2  Southern  Comfort  is  an  annual  conference  held  in  Atlanta,  Georgia,  since  1991.   3  Virginia  Irene  Lindsey  also  recorded  an  oral  history  for  the  project.  See  the  LGBTQ  History  Collection,  Virginia   Room,  Roanoke  Public  Library.     9   �I  don’t  shop  for  women’s  clothes  when  I  am  dressed  as  a  man  but  when  I  am  dressed  as  a   woman  I  go  into  Dress  Barn,  “oh,  let  me  get  you  this.  This  would  look  good  on  you!”  They  are   bringing  stuff  to  the  dressing  room.  It’s  a  lot  of  fun.  So  doing  things  with  my  wife  as  a  woman  is   not  a  great  deal  for  her,  not  fun  for  her,  but  it’s  a  lot  of  fun  for  me.  I  go  spend  a  week  with  her   and  her  girlfriend.  The  three  of  us  went  down  to  Key  West  for  the  week  and  I  never  put  on  a  bit   of  man’s  clothing  the  whole  week  so  for  me  it  was  my  first  travel  in  a  plane  dressed.  You  want   to  hear  a  funny  story  about  that?  [KD:  yes!]  So  my  girlfriend  who  I  grew  up  with,  who  is  down   the  street  at  rehab,  I  say  “hey,  I’m  going  to  come  over  and  I’m  going  to  find  out  if  there  is  any   trouble  getting  on  the  plane.  So  we  are  going  to  go  over  and  interview  some  of  the  TSA   [Transportation  Security  Agency  agents]  and  we  are  going  to  go  up  to  the  camera  and  we  are   going  go…”  So,  we  went  over  there  and  they  said  “we  don’t  care  how  you  dress  as  long  as  you   have  your  identification.  Don’t  come  with  any  fake  identification.  Bring  your  male  identification,   and  you’re  not  going  to  get  any  static  from  us.”  So  now  it’s  time  to  go  to  Key  West.  So  we  drop   the  car  off  in  the  parking  lot  at  the  Roanoke  Airport,  get  our  stuff,  go  in  and  check  in  and  [she]   goes  through  and  I’m  behind  her  and  the  guy  says  “let  me  see  your  ID”  so  I  have  to  give  him  my   male  ID.  “You’re  not  so  and  so.”  I  said  “oh  yes  I  am.”  And  he  says  “Well  I  have  heard  of  you  but   I’ve  never  met  one.”  So  now  I’m  “one.”  So  that’s  my  new  name:  “one.”  [laughter]  So  I  think  he   winked  at  the  girl,  a  beautiful  woman  on  the  other  side  of  the  metal  detector.  He  must  have   winked  at  her  because  she  said  “would  you  sit  over  there  for  a  minute?”  She  had  pulled  me  out   of  the  group.  So  she  had  me  sit  right  by  the  thing  while  everybody  paraded  by  and  then  she  said   “take  off  your  shoes  and  come  on  through.”  And  then  she  sent  me  over  to  a  guy  that  examined   my  shoes.  They  wanted  to  put  me  though  the  full  deal.  But  I  had  been  out  on  my  own  enough   by  then  that  it  didn’t  phase  me.  And  if  you  give  somebody  a  chocolate  it’s  okay.  So  the   gentleman  looking  at  my  male  driver’s  license  and  then  saying  “I’ve  heard  of  you  guys  but  I’ve   never  met  one.”  And  I  said  “well,  you’ve  met  one  now.”     26:50     KD:  I  guess  the  main  thing  is  just  exposure.  Getting  exposure.     26:55     TV:  Yeah,  and  it’s  like  anything,  just  a  little  bit  easier  every  time.  I’ve  been  lucky  enough  so  far   that  I  have  not  been  confronted.  Everybody  is  always  treating  me  nice.  I  haven’t  had  any   confrontation.  One  time,  a  transgender  girlfriend,  my  wife  and  I  went  out  to  Las  Vegas  and  we   had  a  free  room  for  a  week.  I  flew  that  time,  too,  as  transgender.  And  I  was  going  from  slot   machine  to  slot  machine  and  I  saw  a  place  I  wanted  to  go  and  I  had  to  go  through  two  rows  of   slot  machines  into  a  little  opening.  I  think  this  guy  had  probably  been  trying  to  wait  for  this,  he   tried  to  cut  through  at  the  same  time  I  did,  and  he  said  “oh  excuse  me,  SIR.”  He  made  sure  the   “sir”  was  very  loud.  But  sitting  at  the  blackjack  table  with  other  people  they  were  kind  of  giving   me  this  [makes  face],  but  once  they  found  out  I  had  a  personality  I  just  kind  of  blended  into  the   woodwork.  But  at  first  it’s…  if  people  haven’t  been  around  somebody  transgender  before  then   they  are  usually  put  off  by  it.         10   �28:09     KD:  Yeah,  that  is  the  most  difficult  part.  Just  getting  people  to  meet  you.       28:18     TV:  yes,  getting  past  that  first  thing…     28:20     KD:  Getting  past  the  judgment…  Can  you  tell  me  about  your  wife?     28:28     TV:  yeah,  she  is  a  wonderful  mother  for  our  two  children.  [KD:  what  are  their  names?]  I  don’t   want  to  do  that.  [KD:  oh  no,  right  right]  We  haven’t  shared  this  with  anybody  in  the  family   except  cousins.  And  it  took  me  a  long  time  before  I  ever  told  my  best  male  friend.  [KD:  I   complete  forgot  about  our  (agreement)!].  That’s  okay.  They  are  in  their  40s  now.  And  my   grandson  doesn’t  know,  neither  one  of  my  grandsons,  of  course.  But  our  close  knit  friends,  all   the  women  know.  One  of  the  close  knit  couples,  the  wife  has  died,  the  man  doesn’t  know  but   his  daughter  is  homosexual,  and  I  want  to  tell  her  so  bad  but  they  are  friends  of  my  daughters   and  I  don’t  want  to  burden  them  with  a  secret.  We  went  down  this  past  weekend,  her  40th   birthday  party  and  she  is  married  and  has  two  children,  she  was  artificially  inseminated  and   when  you  do  that  you  get  to  reserve  some  sperm  so  that  the  two  children  have  the  same   father.  Not  only  do  they  have  the  same  mother  but  they  have  the  same  father.  So  after  the  law   was  passed  [the  legalization  of  marriage  equality],  her  and  her  long  term  partner  got  married   and  they  have  two  children.  I  want  to  tell  her  so  much  and  she  knows  I  support  them  but  she   hasn’t  figured  out  all  the  reasons  why.  But  my  wife,  she  is  college  educated.  She  is  accepting.   She  has  so  much  fear  about  somebody  finding  out.  It  would  tear  her  up.  I  think  we  raised  our   children  so  that  they  would  be  very  accepting,  but  they  have  kind  of  redneck  husbands,  so,  and   I  have  wonderful  son-­‐in-­‐laws  so  I  don’t  want  to  ruin  the  relationship  there.  I  don’t  know  how   they  would  accept  that.  So  she’s  an  enabler  which  is  fun.  She  is  reluctantly  accepting  except   sometimes  she  will  come  home  and  say  “look  at  this  beautiful  skirt  I  found  for  you,”  so  she  will   bring  stuff  home.  She  always  lets  me  wear  her  clothes.  We  have  the  same  size  fingers  so  we   trade  rings.  We  trade  jewelry  back  and  forth.  So  even  though  she  is  reluctantly  accepting   sometimes  it’s  just  heaven  because  she  is  very  accepting  but  then  she  goes  back  to  where  she   was,  just  kind  of  in  fear  that  somebody  will  find  out.       31:22     KD:  Where  did  you  guys  meet?     31:25       11   �TV:  When  I  was  at  NC  State,  I  had  a  pal  and  she  and  I  palled  around  together.  If  neither  one  of   us  had  a  date,  we  would  get  together  and  go  to  a  ball  game  or  go  out  together.  I  asked  her,  I   said  “I’m  really  looking  for  somebody  really  nice  to  date.”  So  she  brought  my  wife  up.  She  came   in  from  another  town  to  Raleigh  and  when  she  walked  in  the  door,  I  knew  she  was  going  to  be   my  wife,  no  doubt.  So  she  was.  I  only  asked  one  person  in  the  world  to  marry  me,  that  was  her,   and  she  told  me  “no”  so  I  didn’t  do  anymore  asking.  I  just  told  her  “this  is  the  way  it  is  going  to   be.  We  will  be  married,”  so  we  did.     32:16     KD:  That’s  so  sweet.  Sorry,  moment.  Moving  to  a  completely  different  ballpark,  can  you  tell  me   about  Ladies  and  Gents  and  working  with  them?  I  believe  you  worked  with  them  at  some   point?  [TV:  What?]  Ladies  and  Gents  of  Blue  Ridge?       32:36     TV:  Oh.  I  joined  that  group.  And  Tazi  [spells  it]  formed  the  group.  I’m  still  not  sure  how  I  came   across  Tazi,  but  Tazi  came  to  town  and  had  a  job  here  and  was  transgender  and  she  said  she   wanted  to  form  a  group.  So  she  formed  Ladies  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and  we  would  meet  over  at  the   MCC  [Metropolitan  Community  Church]  church  over  there  on  Elm  Avenue,  or  Bullitt  Avenue,  8th   Avenue  [8th  Street].4  We’d  meet  over  there  once  a  month.  It  was  just  about  four  or  five  of  us.  So   I  stayed  with  them  a  little  while  but  it’s  interesting  that  sometimes  there  is  a  power  struggle.   I’ve  seen  a  power  struggle.  People  who  have  maybe  never  been  president  of  a  little  group,  all  of   a  sudden  they  think  “oh  man,  if  I  could  be  president  of  a  transgender  group  that  would  be  a  lot   of  power.”  I  could  just  see  that  there  were  some  people  willing  to  take  over  the  group  when   Tazi  was  moving  out  of  town  so  I  kind  of  backed  off.  I  was  on  the  board  and  I  said  I  just  got  to   get  off  the  board.  I  didn’t  tell  them  why.  And  sure  enough  a  big  cat  fight  broke  out.  I’ve  stayed   friends  with  a  few  of  the  girls  in  the  Ladies  of  the  Blue  Ridge  but  I  don’t  attend  any  of  the   meetings  anymore.  I  see  them  at  Pride  in  The  Park.  There  is  no  animosity  between  me  and   them.  I  just  didn’t  need  all  the  drama.       34:15     KD:  I  am  going  to  ask  two  more  questions  and  then  it  will  just  be  whatever  you  want  to  throw  at   me.       34:24     TV:  okay.  I  don’t  know  that  there  is  anything  you  could  ask  that  I  wouldn’t  want  to  respond  to.     34:30                                                                                                               4  Since  2003,  Metropolitan  Community  Church  has  been  located  at  806  Jamison  Avenue  SE,  which  is  the  location   the  speaker  is  referring  to.     12   �   KD:  What  change  do  you  want  to  see  regarding  sexual  orientation?     34:35-­‐34:50   [Clarification  of  question]     34:50     TV:  My  sexual  orientation  is  heterosexual,  okay?  Which  a  lot  of  people  find  strange…  [struggles   for  the  words]…  I  just  finished  a  document  called  “60  million  reasons  why  Ted  Cruz  won’t   become  president,  ever.”  And  the  60  million  reasons  are,  and  I  will  name  all  60  million,  let’s   assume  that  5-­‐10%,  3-­‐10%  of  America’s  population  or  maybe  the  world’s  population  is  LGBT.  So   let’s  take  5%  as  an  easy  number.  300  million  Americans.  If  you  take  10%  that’s  30  million.  Half   of  that  is  5%,  so  there  is  probably  about  15  million  LGBT  folk  in  the  United  States.  Surprisingly   each  one  of  them  have  two  parents  so  that’s  another  30  million  people.  So  you  have  15  million   transgender  or  homosexual  [people],  we  have  parents  of  transgender  and  homo,  and  on   average  everyone  has  a  brother  or  sister,  so  that’s  another  15  million.  So  there  is  60  million   people  in  the  United  States  that  are  either  homosexual,  bisexual,  transgender,  or  parents  of   homosexual,  transgender,  and  so  on,  or  brothers  and  sisters,  and  that  isn’t  even  counting  the   children  because  many  transgender  and  homosexual  people  have  children.  So  not  even   counting  those,  we’ve  got  60  million  people  that  have  a  reason  not  to  vote  for  somebody  that   says  “the  first  thing  I’m  wanna  do  is  turn  over  the  same  sex  marriage  law.”  It’s  a  three-­‐page   document.  So,  things  that  I  would  like  to  see:  I  would  like  to  see  Christians  become  Christian.  If   you  read  the  New  Testament…  [rustling  paper]  I’ll  write  everything  that  Jesus  said  against   homosexuals  on  this  piece  of  paper…  That’s  the  total  New  Testament  that  Jesus  wrote  against   homosexuals:  zero.  Zero.  So  I  look  at  these  people  who  are  so  homophobic,  I  look  at  them  as   being  Old  Testament  Gentiles  not  Christians,  you  know?  I  would  like  to  see  the  Christian  faith   really  become  inclusive.  I  would  like  to  see  America  become  inclusive  and  not  try  to  divide  us   up  into  little  boxes  and  groups,  and  just  accept  people  for  what  they  are.  Is  that…?  I  don’t  know   if  I  answered  a  different  question  or  not.       37:35     KD:  Yes,  that’s  perfect.  People  sometimes  read  too  deeply  into  the  Bible  [TV:  and  make  up  their   own  stuff  too]  Exactly.  Make  up  fillers,  tons  of  fillers.     37:49     TV:  If  you  think  about  it,  and  I  got  this  from  a  pastor,  if  you  think  about  it,  before  printing   presses,  they  had  a  room  full  of  monks  and  they  would  start  copying  the  Bible.  So  they  could   hand  it  out,  there  was  no  printing  press.  And  you  know  some  editorial  comments  got  in  there.   There  are  only  two  people  that  talk  about  homosexuality  in  the  bible,  and  that’s  Moses  and   Paul.  Paul  talks  about  it  in  the  New  Testament,  Jesus  doesn’t.  Are  these  two  homophobes?  Did   they  really  say  that?  Did  the  monk  who  had  some  problems  write  this  in?  It’s  hard  to  look  at  the     13   �Bible  literally  but  if  you  look  at  the  bible  and  try  to  gather  what  it  is  trying  to  say  in  a  broad   sense,  that  makes  a  lot  more  sense  to  me  rather  than  trying  to  use  it  for  whatever  agenda  you   have.  That’s  just  my  opinion.     38:45     KD:  You  could  pick  anything  from  the  bible  and  come  up  with  your  own  interpretation.  That’s  all   I  have  but  this  is  your  time  to  talk  freely  about  anything  else  you  want  to  add  or  contribute.  I   know  it’s  very  broad  but  anything  you  want  to  say.     39:06     TV:  I’m  trying  to  think  of  something  that  would  be  important.  You  haven’t  asked  the  one   question  I  thought  you  would  ask.       39:17     KD:  What  question  is  that?     39:20     TV:  Why.     39:21     KD:  Why?     39:21     TV:  yeah,  is  it  nurture  or  nature?       39:24     KD:  That  is  a  good  question.  See?  This  is  why  I  ask  you  this!       39:28     TV:  Nobody  knows.  Nobody  has  a  clue.  I  don’t  know  if  my  mom  dressed  me  as  a  little  girl   because  she  wanted  a  little  girl  and  therefore  I  thought  I  was  supposed  to  dress  as  a  little  girl  to   please  my  parents,  or  my  genes  such  that  there’s  something  in  my  brain  or  something…  you   know,  when  somebody  closes  their  eyes  they  know  what  gender  they  are.  You  don’t  have  to   look  in  the  mirror,  you  don’t  have  to  look  in  the  mirror,  you  know  you  are  male  you  know  you   are  female.  I  would  go  to  bed  at  night  and  pray  that  I  would  wake  up  as  a  girl  and  then  I  knew   when  I  was  older  there  must  be  ovaries  or  something  in  here.  I  thought  maybe  I    was  intersexed     14   �because  I  didn’t  know  about  transgender  so  much  at  that  time.  So  as  far  as  I  know,  nobody   knows  why.  I  thin  the  same  thing  with  homosexuals.  I  don’t  know  if  it’s  nature  or  nurture  that   makes  a  person  homosexual.  Just  like  what  makes  a  person  right-­‐handed  or  left-­‐handed.  Let  me   see  is  there  anything  else  I  want  to  say…?  I  guess  from  a  transgender  perspective,  the  funny   part  about  transgender  acceptance…  do  you  know  what  the  big  issue  is?     40:50     KD:  No.     40:51     TV:  It’s  bathrooms.  It’s  always  bathrooms.  I  have  a  friend  that  works  at  NC  State  and  she  is   graduated  from  NC  State  and  they  finally  said  “you  have  to  go  up  to  the  second  floor  to  a   family-­‐type  bathroom,”  not  a  men’s  or  women’s,  and  she  finally  accepted  that.  You  would   never  know  that  she  was  born  male.  She  is  fully  transitioned  and  so  the  bathroom  issue  is   always  an  issue.  I’m  putting  you  on  the  spot  here,  have  you  ever  been  in  a  women’s  bathroom?   [other  interviewer  Teddy:  when  I  was  a  kid,  yeah]  If  you  walk  into  a  women’s  bathroom,  there  is   no  way  that  you  can  be  a  voyeur.  People  think  it’s  a  voyeuristic  thing,  that  they  want  to  see   something.  In  a  man’s  bathroom  you  got  a  bunch  of  stalls  you  all  stand  there,  you  stand  upside   each  other  and  take  a  leak,  that’s  no  big  deal.  But  in  a  women’s  bathroom  is  a  very  private   place.  It’s  funny,  I  don’t  know  how  many  women  know  that  there  is  a  man  sitting  on  the   commode  next  to  them.  I  don’t  go  in  there  for  any  reason  but  if  I  see  a  woman  taking  a  young   child  in  I  would  never  go  behind  them.  I  try  to  go  in,  do  my  business,  and  get  the  heck  out.  So   the  bathroom  issue  is  really  funny,  it’s  a  joke.  It’s  being  legislated  mostly  by  males  and  males   don’t  know  anything  about  what’s  in  a  woman’s  bathroom.  You  go  in,  you  do  your  thing,  and   you  get  the  heck  out.  So  the  bathroom  issue  is  kind  of  funny.  I  think  maybe  someday  it  will  be  a   male/female  family  and  then  a  trans  or  just  a  separate  bathroom.  I  would  rather  go  into  a   separate  bathroom,  I  don’t  want  to  put  anybody  ill  at  ease,  I  don’t  get  any  thrill  out  of  going   into  a  women’s  bathroom.  I’m  not  going  to  go  into  a  man’s  bathroom  like  this.  That  wouldn’t  be   too  bright.       42:48     KD:  That’s  the  thing,  I  always  noticed  that  too.  I  have  never  been  able  to  tell  somebody  who   crossdresses.  Sometimes  men,  they  dress  as  a  female,  they  look  just  as  beautiful  as  a  woman.   You  can’t  tell.     43:04     TV:  Right.  And  I  like  to  think  I  have,  sort  of  like  gaydar,  I  have  “transdar,”  but  sometimes  I  can’t   tell.  One  of  the  women  in  LBR  [Ladies  of  the  Blue  Ridge],  the  first  meeting  I  went  to  I  was  trying   to  figure  why  she  was  there,  maybe  she’s  the  wife  of  the  one  of  the  other  people.  So,  if  you   have  met  her  before,  she  is  very  attractive.  It  would  be  very  hard  to  tell  unless  you  are  really     15   �looking  for  it.  Are  you  aware  of  a  group  called  The  Red  Hats  group?5  It’s  a  group  of  older   women  who  get  together  for  no  other  reason  than  to  party.  They  wear  red  hats  and  purple   dresses  and  they  are  all  in  their  60s,  so  I’ve  been  invited  a  couple  of  times  to  have  dinner  with   them.  Some  know,  some  don’t…  I  sat  and  talked  to  an  80-­‐year-­‐old  woman  for  an  hour  and  a   half  this  far  away  [showing  closeness].  She  showed  me  all  her  grandchildren  and  great-­‐ grandchildren.  We  talked  for  an  hour  and  a  half.  I  found  out  from  my  friend  who  was  head  of   the  group,  she  said  “she  never  knew.”  But  I  don’t  think  I  pass.  I  try  to  blend,  I  don’t  try  to  stand   out  with  pink  hair  and  skinny  skirts  to  here  and  all.  I  try  to  blend,  I  try  not  to  draw  attention.   There  is  a  lady  today  that  showed  me  the  way  to  the  bathroom  when  I  got  here,  you  know  after   an  hour  and  a  half  drive  I  had  to  get  to  the  bathroom,  and  I  asked  the  lady  behind  the  desk  and   an  older  woman  had  heard  me,  probably  a  teacher  had  heard  me  asking,  so  she  came  over  and   walked  alongside  and  said  “go  through  here  and  go  back  there”  so  I  don’t  know  if  she  knew  or   not.  I  don’t  really  know  what  else  to  tell  you.  If  you  have  another  question  to  ask,  that  is  fine.       44:50     KD:  I  do  have  one  more  actually.  And  I  apologize  for  my  blindness  I  didn’t  realize  that  you  were   a  crossdresser,  I  didn’t  realize  the  difference.  I  was  thinking  more  transgender,  corrective   surgery,  so  when  you  said  that  you  were  getting  surgery  I  thought  that  was  for  another  reason.       45:05     TV:  No,  years  ago  I  had  prostate  cancer  and  they  put  radioactive  seeds  in  your  prostate.  That   kills  the  prostate.  Radioactivity  is  kinda  funny:  it  also  causes  cancer.  So  it  caused  some  cancer  in   my  bladder  and  they  were  working  on  that  and  it’s  very  minor,  everything  is  going  to  be  okay.  I   have  had  some  surgery.  I’ve  had  my  eyes  done,  I’ve  had  my  face  lifted,  when  I  lost  weight  I   wrinkled  up  again…  and  I’ve  had  electrolysis  for  over  five  years.  So  I  have  very  little  hair.  I  shave   maybe  once  a  month  or  something  like  that  and  I  go  back,  you  know  hairs  start  popping  out   every  once  and  a  while,  so  I  went  last  Wednesday  for  the  first  time  in  five  months  to  have  them   pull  some  more  hairs  out.  So  when  you  say  transition,  have  you  had  your  surgery,  have  you  had   your  transition,  well,  I  got  tired  of  having  a  beard  show.  If  I  was  going  to  go  out  in  public  I  don’t   want  a  beard  so  I  went  to  electrolysis  for  five  years  and  then  I’ve  had  some  facial  operations.     46:19     KD:  I  guess  the  point  is  to  feel  comfortable,  fit  in,  do  whatever  you  can  to  do  that.       46:23     TV:  Yeah,  and  the  closer,  I  think,  I  can  become…  the  further  away  I  can  be  from  male  I  guess  is   better.  Back  to  the  bathroom  issue,  when  I  go  to  the  bathroom  in  a  public  place  the  first  thing  I                                                                                                               5  The  Red  Hat  Society  is  a  social  organization  for  older  women,  founded  in  1998.  The  Roanoke  chapter  was   established  in  2001.     16   �do  is  look  down  and  make  sure  of  what  I  am  wearing.  Because  you  know  I’m  maybe  10%  female   and  90%  male  most  of  the  time.  So,  I  have  to  make  sure  I  don’t  walk  in  the  wrong  room.       46:58     KD:  I  get  confused  just  dressed  as  myself,  too.  [laughter]  I  walk  into  the  wrong  bathroom.  It’s   crazy.     47:06     TV:  I’m  trying  to  think…  I  don’t  know  if  there  is  anything…  [rustling  papers]  I  thought  I  had  some   things  about  North  Carolina.  Some  of  the  North  Carolina  organizations  and  their  …  I  want  to   stress  [papers  rustling  throughout]  that  a  lot  of  history  in  Southwest  Virginia  happens   elsewhere  because  we  had  to  go  somewhere  else.  [more  rustling]  I’ve  got  some  headshots  in   here  if  you  want…  [KD:  yes!]       47:53     KD:  Thank  you  for  your  time!     47:55     [Discussing  headshots]     END.     17   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Trish Valentine Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Trish Valentine Interviewer: Kerri Dalton (and Teddy Melnik) Interviewee: Trish Valentine Date: 25 February 2016 Location: Roanoke College, Fintel Library, 220 High Street, Salem, VA Total Duration: 47:57 Transcription prepared by: Becca Brown Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Trish Valentine; Kerri Dalton; Ted Melnik; Becca Brown Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ValentineTrish https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2619/Whittier_Edna.1.mp3 71f0911c955dfef83e042db6c32ccc23 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2619/Whittier_Edna.pdf ac3f204f66021fd964c0584fa90b2668 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project     Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Edna  Whittier     March  2,  2016     Interviewer:  Tessa  Pleban     Interviewee:  Edna  Whittier     Date:  March  2,  2016     Time:  4:25pm     Location:  Floyd  Public  Library,  Floyd,  Virginia         Transcribed  by:  Mahmoud  El-­‐Hazzouri  and  Jessica  Hopkins     0:00  =  on  preferring  the  title  “Ms.”  versus  “Miss”   2:30  =  childhood  in  Midland,  Michigan  (1950s  /  1960s)   5:02  =  experiences  in  college  at  Central  Michigan  University  (early  1970s?)  and  the  story  of  a   lesbian  women’s  music  festival  in  Mount  Pleasant,  Michigan  (founded  c.  1974)   11:47  =  experiences  with  the  Girl  Scouts  in  Midland,  Michigan   15:12  =  gay  teachers  at  high  school  in  Midland,  Michigan  (1960s)   16:22  =  coming  out  as  bisexual  (early  1980s)   19:25  =  the  gay  scenes  in  Saginaw  and  Lansing,  Michigan  (1980s);  more  on  coming  out,  and   deciding  to  move  to  Lansing  in  1983   27:55  =  coming  out  to  her  parents   30:51  =  religious  upbringing  in  Midland,  Michigan;  discovering  a  Quaker  community  in  Lansing,   Michigan  (c.  1986);  debate  about  gays  and  AIDS  within  the  Quaker  community  (late  1980s)   40:29  =  women’s  responses  to  the  AIDS  epidemic,  in  Lansing,  Michigan,  and  nationally   49:16  =  on  the  power  differences  among  white  gay  men,  gay  men  of  color,  and  lesbians   53:56  =  reflecting  on  the  origins  of  Lansing’s  first  pride  marches  (late  1980s?)   57:03  =  involvement  with  Lansing’s  AIDS  network  and  the  Michigan  Organization  for  Human   Rights   58:47  =  reasons  for  moving  to  Roanoke,  Virginia  in  2003     1   �1:02:20  =  Metropolitan  Community  Church  of  the  Blue  Ridge   1:03:33  =  The  Park  and  Backstreet  Café   1:06:26  =  Pride  in  the  Park  festivals  in  Highland  and  Elmwood  Parks  (mid-­‐2000s)   1:08:30  =  differences  between  the  gay  communities  in  Michigan  and  Southwest  Virginia   1:13:40  =  starting  a  women’s  soccer  league  through  the  Metropolitan  Community  Church  (2011   –  present)   1:16:29  =  helping  to  organize  pride  parades  in  Floyd,  Virginia  (c.  2014  –  present)   1:22:56  =  the  women’s  soccer  league  in  Roanoke   1:26:13  =  what  will  the  future  be  like  in  Floyd?    1:30:10  =  predicting  a  future  backlash  in  response  to  marriage  equality   1:36:38  =  concluding  the  interview       0:00   Tessa  Pleban:  Hello,  my  name  is  Tessa  Pleban.  I  am  a  student  at  Roanoke  College  and  right  now   we  are  in  the  Floyd  Public  Library  and  I  am  interviewing  Miss  Edna  Whittier.  Edna,  could  you  tell   me  a  little  bit  about  yourself?   0:15     Edna  Whittier:  Well  my  first  reaction  is,  being  a  feminist,  it  would  be  “Ms.”     0:23   TP:  Oh,  I  apologize.     0:25   EW:  For  anybody  who  doesn’t  know  the  why,  there  is  no  single  or  married  status  for  men  with   the  “Mr.”  so  the  idea  behind  the  “Ms.”  is  to  remove  that  single  or  married  status  but  most   people  don’t  use  it  unless  it’s  in  formal  correspondence  and  here  in  the  Southwest  section  of   Virginia  “Ms.”  is  usually  put  in  front  of  a  woman’s  first  name  so  it  would  be  “Ms.  Edna”  but  that   of  course  is  just  a  shortening  of  M-­‐I-­‐S-­‐S  so  “Ms.  Edna”  is  something  common  around  here  when   people  are  talking  to  each  other.  Sometimes,  I’ve  heard  some  women  address  one  of  their   friends  as  “Mr.  Mike.”  You’re  asking  for  a  description  of  myself?     1:38   TP:  Well  I  would  just  like  to  ask  you  so  could  you  tell  us,  do  you  live  here  in  Floyd?     1:45     2   �EW:  I  do.  I’ve  lived  here  for  five  years.     1:49   TP:  Do  you  work  here?     1:50   EW:  No,  I  work  in  Roanoke  at  Virginia  Western  Community  College.     1:54   TP:  Ok,  what  do  you  do  at  Virginia  Western?     1:57   EW:  I’m  a  study  skills  and  testing  skills  tutor.  My  official  title  is  Academic  Success  Coach.  If  the   students  ask  for  a  one-­‐on-­‐one  tutor,  they’re  asked  to  sign  up  for  a  session  with  me.     2:15     TP:  And  do  you  do  anything  else  up  at  Virginia  Western?     2:19   EW:  No,  that’s  it     2:21   TP:  Ok.  So  have  you  always  lived  in  Floyd?     2:26   EW:  I’ve  lived  here  for  five  years.     2:28   TP:  Ok,  where  did  you  live  before  that?     2:30   EW:  I  was  in  Roanoke  for  seven  years  before  that  and  before  that  two  years  in  New  Jersey  and   before  that  I  lived  in  Michigan,  fourteen  or  fifteen  years  in  Lansing,  the  rest  of  the  time  moving   around  the  state.  Grew  up  in  Midland,  Michigan.       2:59   TP:  Midland,  Michigan?     3:00   EW:  Mhm   3:01       3   �TP:  So  did  you  live  with  your  family  there?     3:03   EW:  Mhm,  my  mother  and  father  and  my  older  and  younger  brother.  Born  a  part  of  the  baby   boom.      3:16   TP:  So  how  long  did  you  live  there  with  your  family?     3:21   EW:  Mmm…  Until  I  was  18  when  I  went  to  college  and  then  my  parents  moved  to  Lansing,  or   the  Lansing  area  I  should  say,  so  [in]  college  [I  was]  going  home  to  wherever  their  house  was.   Got  married  in  ‘73.  Got  a  divorce  in  ‘79.  I  already  had  a  degree  in  education.  Went  to  the   community  college  in  Lansing  and  got  a  Licensed  Practical  Nurse  Certificate.  Have  been  a   Licensed  Practical  Nurse  for  over  25  years.  Used  my  education  degree  on  and  off  to  tutor  study   skills  and  testing  skills  or  for  a  while  sciences,  biology  and  geology.         4:28   TP:  So  is  it  alright  if  we  start  at  the  beginning  back  in  Midland?     4:31   EW:  Sure     4:32   TP:  So  you  lived  in  Midland  with  your  family.  Did  you  go  to  schooling  there?     4:36   EW:  Mhm.  Yes.     4:38   TP:  And  did  you  go  to  college  in  Midland  after  high  school  or  did  you  leave?     4:47   EW:  Twenty  minutes  away  to  Mount  Pleasant  to  Central  Michigan  [University].     4:51   TP  Ok.  Did  you  find  that  in  that  area,  if  it’s  alright  for  me  to  ask,  was  there  an  active  community   at  the  time?     5:02     4   �EW:  I  was  not  aware  at  that  time.  At  that  time,  the  first  time  I  had  been  aware  of  anything  in   terms  of  the  issue  of  gay  or  lesbian  was  I  was  in  college  and  friends  with  a  lot  of  Girl  Scouts  in   the  area  and  there  was  one  high  school  student  who  had  a  crush  on  me  and  long  distance  calls   between  myself  and  her.  At  that  time  there  was  only  one  phone  on  the  entire  floor  so  it  was  a   question  of  her  trying  to  call  me  and  somebody  coming  to  get  me.  So  we  had  some  pretty  long   telephone  conversations.  She  ran  up  bills  of  $120.  At  that  time,  if  you  decided  you  were  lesbian   or  gay,  you  could  be  committed.  And  in  her  situation,  her  parents  put  her  in  therapy.  She  was   very  vocal.  She  was  a  sophomore  in  high  school  and  very  vocal  about  the  fact  that  she  was  a   lesbian.  And  it  didn’t  bother  me  in  the  sense  that  I  didn’t  feel  threatened.  Everybody  knew  her,   everybody  liked  her  other  than  the  fact  that  she  just  would  obsess  about  calling  me.  So  there   wasn’t  any,  as  far  as  I  know,  there  wasn’t  any  “shunning”  [air  quote  with  fingers]  of  her.  But,   because  of  her  obsession,  I  don’t  like  being  around  her  when  she  starts  obsessing.  That  was   kind  of  the  response  from  the  Girl  Scouts  that  I  was  with.  She  had  a  beautiful  singing  voice.  She   played  drums  incredibly  well.    And  we  were  a  musical  group.  The  campfires  and  that  sort  of   thing,  she  didn’t  have  any  problems  there,  it  was  just  the  other  part.  When  I  got  married,  she   actually  was  the  person  who,  she  went  around  and  made  sure  the  corsages  were  on  the  right   people  so  she  took  care  of  that.  After  I  got  the  divorce,  I  had  to  move  back  home  from  where   my  ex-­‐husband  and  I  were  living.  We  were  living  in  Flint  and  I  moved  back  to  the  Midland  area   and  she  was  still  living  in  the  Midland  area  and  it  was  through  her  that  I  have  become  aware  of   what  had  been  going  on  in  Mount  Pleasant,  since  the  time  that  I  had  been  in  school.  She  let  me   know  about  the  Women’s  Music  Festival  which  had  been  started  in  ‘74  or  ‘76.  At  the  time  that  I   was  a  junior,  a  sophomore,  a  senior  in  Mount  Pleasant  there  was  a  group  of  women.  They  were   called  the  Lyon  Street  Women  because  they  had  a  collective  on  Lyon  Street.  I  think  that  was  the   name  of  it.  And  they  decided  they  wanted  to  hear  Women’s  music.  They  were  tired  of  listening   to  all  of  the  music  by  men  so  they  formed  a  co-­‐op  or  a  collective  and  got  some  land  from  a   farmer.  They  were  able  to  rent  some  land  from  a  farmer  and  invited  all  these  women  who  were   lesbian,  bisexual  women  making  music,  through  an  independent  music  recording  group  and   invited  them  to  do  concerts  and  last  year  or  this  year  is  the  last  year  of  the  Women’s  Music   Festival.  So  it  ran  for  40  years,  ‘76  to  2016,  or  maybe  it  was  last  year,  but  any  rate  it  ran  for  40   years  and  the  last  time  was  either  last  year  or  this  year.  And  it  got  shut  down,  surprisingly   enough,  because  of  the  transgender  issue.  The  Women’s  Festival  did  not  allow  women  on  the   grounds  that  were  not  female-­‐born  and  they  stood  by  that  until  their  performers  started   boycotting  them  so  they  couldn’t  get  anybody  to  perform  and  they  were  having  trouble  holding   vendors  so  finally  the  organizers  just  said  “that’s  enough,  we’re  tired  of  this”  and  they  shut  it   down.  So  there  was  something  going  on  there  [when  she  was  in  college]  I  was  just  not  aware  of   it  until  after  my  divorce  and  my  friend  took  me  to  the  festival.  At  the  time  that  I  went  to  my  first   festival,  it  was  six  years,  six  or  seven  years  after  the  first  one  so  I  went  to  the  seventh  annual   Women’s  Music  Festival  for  the  first  time.     10:45   TP:  So  did  your  friend,  when  she  introduced  you  to  that  did  she  say  that  she  had  been  going  to   the  festival  for  a  while?     10:51     5   �EW:  She  had  been  going  to  every  one  of  them.  She  was  there  for  the  very  first  one.  When  it   only  cost  I  think  $10  to  go  for  the  entire  weekend.       11:00   TP:  And  she’s  the  one  that  invited  you  to  the  seventh?     11:02   EW:  Mhm     11:04   TP:  So  did  you  find  yourself  going  to  them  after  that?     11:07   EW:  I  went  to  three  more  if  I’m  not  mistaken.  It  kind  of  blurs  together.  And  the  t-­‐shirts   unfortunately  do  not  say  which  years  they  were.  They  say  like  “the  seventh  annual”  but  they   don’t  put  a  year  on  it  and  I  don’t  have  all  of  my  t-­‐shirts.    It  depended  on  whether  I  liked  what   the  image  was.  Every  year  they  would  change  the  image  on  the  t-­‐shirt.     11:34   TP:  So  if  I  could  ask  about  that  person.  When  you  were  back  in  high  school  did  you  realize  those   were  advances  or  did  you  think  of  her  as  a  friend?     11:47   EW:  I  thought  of  her  as  a  friend.  In  the  Girl  Scout  groups  that  I  was  with,  we  were  very  active   outdoors.  I  would  say  the  majority  of  us  would’ve  been  labeled  tomboys.  Our  biggest  thing  was   camping  and  singing.  So  we  all  had  crushes  on  each  other.  We  were  all  in  love  with  each  other   in  some  manner.  We  sent  cards  to  each  other  that  used  the  word  “love"  frequently  and  it  was   one  of  those  deep  friendship  sort  of  things.  We  made  friendship  bracelets  for  each  other.  You   could  tell  who  the  popular  person  was  by  the  number  of  bracelets  on  their  arm.  Again  it  wasn’t   a  threatening  environment.  As  a  matter  of  fact  when  we  heard  from  one  of  the  troop  leaders   that  the  Girl  Scout  council  was  concerned  about  our  particular  group  because  they  were  afraid   there  were  lesbian  tendencies  going  on,  we  all  laughed.  We  thought  “that’s  ridiculous.  Of   course  that’s  not  true.”   13:04   TP:  So  you  being  in  Girl  Scouts  did  you  find  out  later  that  you  had  an  issue  with  them?  Did  they   ever  talk  to  you  or  your  friends?     13:11   EW:  You  mean  the  council?     13:12   TP:  Mhm       6   �13:13   EW:  No,  they  never  did.  We  just  blew  them  off.  On  top  of  that  we  had  those  troop  leaders  that   were  championing  us,  and  you  got  to  put  it  in  the  context  of  time.  This  was  sex,  drugs,  and  rock   and  roll  or  if  you  wanted  to  be  more  hippy  it  was  love,  peace,  and  rock  and  roll.  So  it  was  lots  of   bell  bottoms,  lots  of  incredible  colors,  fringe  jackets,  and  Back  to  the  Earth  movement,  and  it   was  appropriate  to  be  expressing  that  kind  of  love  because  our  parents  couldn’t.  They  weren’t   that  open.  They  weren’t  that  free.  That  was  our  attitude  that  these  council  women  from  the   Girl  Scouts  were  old  “fuddy  duddys”  who  didn’t  know  what  they  were  talking  about.       14:14   TP:  So  you  mentioned  that  your  friend…  that  her  parents  put  her  in  therapy,  was  that  it  was   illegal  at  the  time,  did  you  find  though  that  was  kind  of  the  usual  that  would  happen  as,  rather   than  ostracizing  their  child,  parents  would  put  them  in  therapy  and  kind  of  press  it  down  or…     14:36   EW:  It  depended  on  how  “out”  a  person  was  and  she  was  very  vocal  and  because  she  was  very   vocal  about  it,  her  parents  asked  her  to  go  to  therapy  and  she  didn’t  really  have  a  choice.  She   was  under  age.  She  wasn’t  emancipated  or  anything,  and  being  committed  we  heard  stories.   We  didn’t  know  anybody  personally.  The  closest  we  came  to  it  was  her  and  [her]  having  to  go   to  therapy  for  it.     15:07   TP:  So  you  never  felt  like  you  faced  that  threat  when  you  were  younger?       15:12   EW:  Well  I’m  bisexual  and  so  for  me  all  of  those  things  were  just  “okay,  it’s  out  there,”  but  my   parents  never  talked  about  it.  There  were  two  P.E.  teachers,  physical  ed[ucation]  teachers,  in   my  high  school—no,  it  was  my  junior  high  school—that  evidently  lived  together  and  I  never   heard  anybody  in  the  school  say  anything  about  that.  It  was  just  “oh,  so  they  lived  together,  so   what?”  It  was  one  of  those  things  that  was  so  underground  it  wasn’t  even  whispered  about.  It   just  never  occurred  to  anybody.  She  [her  friend]  was  carrying  on  a  little  too  much  with  her  girl   crush.     16:14   TP:  So  you  said  that  you  identify  as  bisexual,  could  I  ask  you  when  you  came  out?     16:22   EW:  In  ‘82,  after  the  divorce  when  I  was  living  back  in  Midland  and  my  friend…  and  I  was   working  the  second  shift  as  a  nurse  so  that  means  I  worked  from  7pm  until  11pm  which  made  it   very  hard  to  socialize.  The  only  place  you  could  go  was  to  the  bars  afterwards  if  you  wanted  to   socialize  and  I  didn’t  want  to  do  that.  By  the  time  I  would  get  up  around  8  or  9[am]  and  have  to   get  ready  to  go  to  work  and  if  there  was  anything  to  do  it  would  occur  between  5  and  7[pm]     7   �and  most  people  were  eating  supper  then.  They  didn’t  start  doing  anything  until  7  o’clock.  So   basically,  I  wasn’t  living  with  my  family,  divorced,  didn’t  know  anybody  in  town  because   everybody  that  I  knew  had  left,  and  she  was  the  only  friend  that  I  had  who,  because  she  wasn’t   working  a  job,  or  a  steady  job,  could  come  and  talk  to  me.  After  a  certain  amount  of  time  she   just  said  “I  can’t  do  this  anymore.  Either  we  become  lovers  or  I  leave.”  I  thought  about  it  and  I   thought,  she’s  the  only  person  I  know.  I’m  not  in  a  position  to  say  no  to  love,  so  I  told  her  “okay,     If  we’re  gonna  do  this,  we’re  gonna  get  therapy,”  so  we  started  couples’  therapy  with  a  social   worker  friend  of  hers  which  worked  out  very  well  in  terms  of  it  was  easy  to  get  along  with  her   [the  therapist]  and  she  understood.    The  therapy  was  a  good  move  because  it  turned  out  my   friend  was  alcoholic,  which  I  didn’t  recognize,  and  we  were  like  oil  and  water.  We  just  didn’t  mix   well.  I  was  32  when  I  decided  “okay.”  So  I  was  one  of  those  people  that  actually  had  a  choice.  I   can  choose  to  be  heterosexual  or  I  can  choose  to  be  homosexual.  When  religious  people  talk   about  people  having  choices,  they’re  talking  about  people  like  me,  they’re  talking  about  me.        19:17   TP:  Have  you  found  that  there  was  a  backlash  when  you  came  out  from  either  your  family,   friends,  or  as  you  mentioned  religion?     19:25   EW:  Not  a  backlash  in  the  sense  that  I  was  open  about  it.  Let’s  see  where  shall  we  start?  I  was   living  in  Midland.  There  was  no  gay  community  in  Midland  whatsoever.  The  closest  gay   community  was  20  –  30  minutes  away  in  Bay  City  or  Saginaw,  in  the  form  of  gay  bars  and  that’s   basically  all  that  was  available.  And  it  was  really  disappointing  too  because  all  of  the  gay  bars   were  male  gay  bars  so  they  had  this  techno  beat  to  them.  My  lover  and  I,  we  went  down  to   Lansing,  which  was  two  hours  away,  and  we  went  to  the  women’s  bars  in  Lansing  and  they   played  a  variety  of  music,  so  it  wasn’t  all  boom  boom  boom.  And  she  and  I  liked  dancing  and  we   could  dance  to  that  [the  music  in  the  women’s  bars].  We’d  go  over  to  Saginaw  and  I  would   approach  the  DJ  about  playing  something  else  and  “well,  this  is  what  we  always  play.”  “Okay.”   Just  being  aware  that  you  couldn’t  hold  hands  in  public  did  present  problems  occasionally   because  I  called  her  “babe”  and  I  did  that  once  or  twice  in  public  and  didn’t  realize  I  had  done  it   because  when  I  was  married  I  said  things  like  “love”  and  stuff  like  that  and  she  was  very  aware   of  it  because  she  had  been  to  therapy.  She  knew  you  don’t  do  things  like  that.  She  would   remind  me  afterwards,  “you  didn’t  see  the  look  that  clerk  gave  us.  Did  you  realize  you  said   that?”  “Ooo,  no,  sorry,  didn’t  mean  to  do  that.”  That  was  the  only  pressure  I  noticed.     My  brother  preceded  me  in  terms  of  being  gay  or  being  part  of  the  community.  He  had  left  our   family  early  on  to  go  to  Oregon  and  when  he  was  in  Oregon  he  discovered  that  he  was  gay  and   he  had  a  gay  lover  and  there  was  a  gay  men’s  community  in  the  Oregon  area,  in  the  university   area.  When  my  mother  and  dad  went  out  there  to  visit,  he  very  carefully  took  them  to  different   parties  where  he  introduced  them  to  his  friends  and  about  halfway  through  their  visit  he  said  to   them  “maybe  you  noticed,  but  every  party  we’ve  been  at  all  of  my  friends  are  male  and  I’m   gay.”  The  way  my  dad  described  it  to  me  afterwards  was  that  when  my  brother  said  “I’m  gay”   and  realized  that  my  parents  weren’t  concerned  then  he  kind  of  went  “you  mean  it’s  ok?  It’s   alright?  Well,  this  is  just  wonderful!”  and  my  dad  said  it  was  the  happiest  he  had  seen  my     8   �brother  in  a  long  time,  not  that  we  saw  a  whole  lot  of  him.  Again,  we  were  half  a  continent   away  from  each  other,  but  he  had  come  out  to  them  before  I  became  involved,  a  good  three   years  before  I  became  involved  with  my  lover.  And  for  me,  honestly,  it  was  harder  for  me  to   accept  that  my  older  brother  was  gay.  It  took  me  48  hours  to  figure  that  it  was  okay.  I  just  had  a   repulsion  originally  and  that  was  all  due  to  sexual  practices,  so  there  was  on  my  part,  as  far  as   my  brother  was  concerned,  a  resistance.  Didn’t  voice  it  to  him,  never  have,  because  he  wasn’t   there  and  it  didn’t  affect  our  relationship.  I  talked  to  my  younger  brother  about  it  because  my   younger  brother  knew  earlier  than  my  parents.  He  had  gone  out  to  visit  my  older  brother  and   my  older  brother  was  much  more  relaxed  with  him,  just  took  him  around.  It  didn’t  take  long  for   my  younger  brother  to  figure  out  what  was  going  on.     So,  for  me  coming  out  to  my  family,  that  sort  of  more  or  less  happened,  not  because  I  just  out   and  said  it,  because  I  didn’t  really  know.  Is  this  a  passing  fad?  Is  this  a  desperation  act  because   I’m  all  alone  and  the  only  thing  that  I  have  is  my  friend  who  says  we  got  to  be  sexual  partners  or   she’s  going  to  leave?  But  as  I  said  she  was  an  alcoholic.  I  would  say  about  eight  months  after   trying  to  go  through  therapy,  we  quit  each  other,  we  called  it  quits.  I  called  it  quits.  I  continued   to  see  the  therapist  and  she  said,  “you  really  shouldn’t  be  staying  here  [Midland]  if  you  want  to   be  part  of  a  women’s  community.  One,  the  job  that  you  have  is  isolating  and  two,  there’s   nothing  here.”  So  for  a  while  I  went  back  to  Mount  Pleasant,  went  to  school,  decided  that   wasn’t  working  even  though  the  women’s  community  was  sort  of  there  in  terms  of  the  festival.   The  women  organizing  the  festival  had  all  moved  to  California.  They  would  come  back  in  the   summer  time  to  organize  the  festival  so  there  wasn’t  really  a  community  in  Mount  Pleasant   either.  And  talking  to  my  therapist  I  just  decided  it  was  time  to  move  to  Lansing.  The  capital  had   a  very  strong  women’s  community.  It  was  in  the  time  I  was  back  at  school  trying  to  do  some   graduate  work  that  I  came  out  to  my  parents  and  that  was  by  accident  and  they  were  just  kind   of  like  “oh,  okay.”  Although  I  think,  I  know  my  dad  was  disappointed  in  the  sense  that  my  older   brother  was  gay,  I  was  gay,  and  my  younger  brother  didn’t  seem  to  want  to  marry  anybody,  so   my  dad  was  wanting  grandchildren  and  he  really  felt  regretful  about  that.  But  I  am  very  unusual   in  the  fact  that  my  parents  were  so  accepting  of  it.  I’ve  heard  so  many  other  stories  about  the   way  friends  were  treated  by  their  family.  My  parents  were  very  unusual,  very  special  in  that   fact.  One  of  the  favorite  past  times,  when  you  got  together  with  other  friends,  was  your  coming   out  story  and  we’d  talk  about  what  it  was  like  to  come  out  to  your  parents  so  I  heard  lots  and   lots  of  stories.     27:49   TP:  When  you  went  to  go  talk  to  your  parents,  did  you  feel  any  anxiety  or  did  you  already  feel   comforted  by  your  older  brother?     27:55   EW:  Well,  see  what  had  happened  was  my  mom  and  dad  were  supposed  to  meet  me  in  the   university  town  in  Mount  Pleasant  for  supper  before  we  were  going  to  go  see  a  comedian,  a   political  comedian  in  Mount  Pleasant.  My  lover  at  that  time,  she  was  part  of  it,  when  we  bought   tickets  and  my  dad,  my  mom,  my  parents  showed  up  early  and  we  had  left  our  clothes  all  along   to  the  bedroom  so  I  couldn’t  invite  them  in.  I’m,  like,  looking  out  the  door,  with  the  door     9   �cracked  and  they  didn’t  know.  I  hadn’t  said  anything  to  them.  I  was  with  a  friend,  that’s  all  it   was  [to  them],  and  they  didn’t  know  about  my  first  lover.  I  had  a  friend,  a  friend  who  I’d  known   in  college.  Both  situations—and  actually  my  second  lover  was  a  friend  I  knew  in  college.  So  I’m   standing  there  with  the  door  kind  of  cracked,  looking  at  my  dad  saying  “Dad,  we’ll  meet  you  at   the  restaurant,  if  it’s  okay  with  you”  and  Dad’s  like  “okay,”  and  they  left  and  I  closed  the  door   and  my  lover  and  I  kind  of  fell  on  the  floor  laughing.  When  we  were  in  the  restaurant  I  basically   explained  why  I  couldn’t  bring  them  in.  Here’s  all  these  clothes  and  my  mom  and  dad  just  kind   of  smiled.  I  didn’t  feel  any  stress.  It  was  a  laughable  matter.  Again,  very  very  lucky.  My  parents   were  very  unusual.       29:46   TP:  So  you  mentioned  that  you  found  your  second  lover  at  college.  Do  you  feel  like  the  college   scene  was  more  accepting?  Were  you  able  to  show  outward  affection  or  was  it  still  that  same…     29:57   EW:  No.  We  are  still  talking  about  Mount  Pleasant  which  is  a  very  conservative,  was  a  very   conservative  town,  surrounded  by  corn  fields,  just  farm,  not  city.  Cities  are  much  more   accepting.  Farm  areas  are  very  conservative  and  my  second  lover  was  a  friend  from  my  first   college  years.  Again,  now  I  was  fairly  certain  that  she  was  a  lesbian.  Even  then  I  knew  that,  but   we  were  friends,  same  thing.  Again,  no  sense  whatsoever  of  stress,  we  were  just  friends.     30:49   TP:  That  sounds  actually  really  nice,  doesn’t  it?     30:51   EW:  Well,  I  look  back  and  listen  to  other  people  talk  and  I’m  just  plain  lucky  or  my  parents  were   just  very  unusual.    And  you  also  asked  about  religion.  So  in  my  experience,  with  religion  I  grew   up  United  Methodist,  at  that  time  it  was  just  the  Methodist  church,  and  I  was  very  into  religion.   My  favorite  book,  even  as  a  child,  at  the  age  of  6  or  7,  was  my  parent’s  coffee  table  book  that   was  a  Life-­‐Time  magazine  The  Worlds  of  Religion.1  It  was  covered  in  all  these  beautiful  pictures   and  told  about  different  religions.  Again,  I  think  I  was  7  or  8,  like  in  the  first  or  second  grade  and   again  part  of  the  baby  boom,  so  there  were  three…  The  church  that  we  went  to  seated  1,000   members  and  there  were  three  first  and  second  grade  rooms  for  Sunday  school,  which  means   there  were  10  or  15  kids  in  each  room  and  I  won  a  Bible  because  I  knew  the  most  verses.  So  I’ve   always  been  interested  in  religion  and  in  college,  we’re  talking  late  ‘60s  early  ‘70s,  there  was  a   charismatic  movement  by  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  which  was  basically  a  Roman  Catholic   version  of  Pentecostal.  Pentecostal  being  what  some  people  would  call  “Holy  rollers,”  prayer   and  praise,  raising  your  hands  and  singing,  doing  harmonies,  that  sort  of  thing.  Since  it  was  a   more  moderate  Pentecostal  [the  charismatic  movement],  it  wasn’t  a  lot  of  falling  on  the  floor   and  fainting,  being  struck  down  by  the  spirit  sort  of  stuff,  but  I  could  feel  the  presence  of                                                                                                                   1    Perhaps  The  World’s  Great  Religions,  which  was  published  in  1957.   10   �something  moving  through  the  room  in  the  harmonies.  However,  it  being  Pentecostal,   evangelical,  Bible  based,  it  had  stereotypes  about  what  women  do  and  what  men  do.     When  I  moved  to  Lansing,  as  a  lesbian—and,  because  at  that  time,  you  didn’t  talk  in  the   women’s  community  about  being  bisexual—Lansing  was,  still  is,  a  very  strong  feminist  area  and   there  were  a  lot  of  lesbian  separatists  that  didn’t  do  things  with  men  if  they  could  avoid  it.  If   they  had  something  to  be  repaired,  they  would  look  for  a  female  electrician  or  a  female   plumber,  or  a  female  construction  boss.  They  went  out  of  their  way  to  employ  women   whenever  they  could  and  they  only  tolerated  working  with  men  when  they  had  to.  So  you  just   didn’t  say  you  were  bisexual.  You  were  lesbian  or  you  were  a  gay  man  and  that  was  it,  those   two  things.  So  here  I  am  in  a  situation  where  I  want  to  go  to  church  but  I  can’t,  in  the  sense  if   I’m  going  to  be  honest  as  to  who  I  am—and  my  dad  was  painfully  honest,  so  I  grew  up  with  you   tell  the  truth  and  there  is  such  a  thing  as  lying  by  omission.  If  somebody  thinks  something  of   you  and  it’s  not  the  truth,  you  correct  them—So  I  couldn’t  go  to  church  and  expect  that  I  was   going  to  be  accepted  by  them,  by  charismatic  groups.  So  I  just  didn’t  have  a  church  to  go  to.   And  in  ‘86,  the  Challenger  disaster,  the  space  shuttle  blew  up,  and  I  wanted  some  place  to  go   and  I  knew  that  one  of  the  women  in  the  community  had  said  that  she  was  a  Quaker,  so  I   ask[ed]  her  if  she  thought—not  knowing  what  Quakers  did,  that  is  sitting  in  a  circle,  in  silence,   waiting  for  a  message  from  the  Spirit—So  I  said  to  her,  “do  you  think  anybody’s  going  to  talk,  or   will  there  be  talk  about  the  Challenger  disaster?”  She  hesitated  and  she  said  “maybe.”  Again,   me  not  knowing  what  un-­‐programmed,  silent  meetings  were  like.  So  I  went  and  interestingly   enough,  someone  stood  up  and  spoke  about  Judy  Resnik,  who  was  the  other  female  astronaut   [besides  Christa  McAuliffe  who  was  also  on  the  Challenger]  and  I  kind  of  liked  what  was  going   on.  I  stayed  for  the  potluck.     I  started  coming  back  to  those  groups  and  at  one  point,  at  that  time,  the  Quaker  meeting  that  I   was  going  to  didn’t  have  a  permanent  house,  they  were  renting  a  room  from  another  church   and  they  would  have  potlucks  but  it’d  be  in  people’s  homes.  So  I  went  to  a  couple  potlucks  and   I  think  it  was  about  the  third  potluck,  we  had  all  finished  eating  and  the  men  picked  up  all  the   dishes,  took  them  into  kitchen  and  started  cleaning  and  all  the  women  got  up  and  went  to  the   living  room  and  started  talking  and  I  thought  to  myself  “I  can  do  this.”  So  that’s  what  I’ve  been   ever  since,  I’ve  been  attending  Quaker  meetings  ever  since.  At  that  time  liberal  Quakers  were   having  problems  with  how  do  we  deal  with  our  gay  members?  How  do  we  handle  [it]?  Do  we   accept  them?  Do  we  actually  minute  something  saying  welcome?  Is  that  something  that  would   be  helpful?  Is  it  something  we  as  Quakers  should  be  doing?  And  that  was  causing  a  bit  of  a   division  in  the  Quaker  meeting  in  Lansing  at  that  time.  There  were  those  that  said  “no.  There   should  be  no  special  minute  for  a  group  of  people  that  are  coming  to  worship  with  us.  Besides,   we  don’t  want  to  be  seen  endorsing  that  lifestyle.”  And  then  there  were  those  who  were  saying   “everybody’s  equal,”  which  goes  with  the  Equality  Testimony  of  Quakers.2  So  that  was  in  the   late  ‘80s.  At  the  same  time,  in  the  ‘80s,  the  AIDS  crisis  was  happening.  So  there  was  a  lot  of   persecution,  verbal  persecution,  and  physical  violence  going  on  against  gay  men.  So  the  issue   on  whether  the  Quaker  meeting  was  going  to  be  welcoming  to  gays  had  political  ramifications,                                                                                                                   2  On  the  Quaker  testimonies,  see  American  Friends  Service  Committee,  An  Introduction  to  Quaker  Testimonies   (2011),  https://afsc.org/sites/afsc.civicactions.net/files/documents/AFSC_Testimonies_Booklet.pdf       11   �particularly  with  the  AIDS  thing.  There  was  talk  about  having  anybody  identified  as  carrying  the   AIDS  virus  be  put  in  a  special  camp.  There  was  those  extreme  talks.     38:58   TP:  During  that  time  did  you  ever  worry?      39:00   EW:  Myself?     39:01   TP:  Mhm     39:02   EW:  No,  I  was  lesbian.  All  I  had  to  do  was  keep  my  mouth  shut.     39:08   TP:  [Did]  that  affect  how  you  felt  at  the  time?  Did  you  ever  feel  or  worry  that  that  persecution   would  switch  over  to  all  homosexual  members?     39:17   EW:  We  were  very  aware  of  it.  It  was  a  community…     39:22-­‐40:28     Paused  as  asked  by  Ms.  Edna,  due  to  tears  interrupting  the  interview.     40:29   EW:  The  women’s  community  was  very  aware  of  it,  that  they  had  a  choice.  They  could  choose   just  to  keep  their  mouth  shut  because  lesbians  don’t  get  AIDS  at  that  time.  Statistically,  it  was   just  negligible,  we  just  simply  weren’t  a  part  of  the  AIDS  crisis.  We  could  choose  to  be  silent  and   be  invisible  and  nobody  would  say  anything.  It’s  funny  because  this  was  never  verbalized.  I  just   simply  noticed  it.  Nationally,  that  was  the  same  feeling.  It  was  never  verbalized.  The  women   could  just  choose  to  divorce  themselves  from  the  homosexual  community  in  terms  that   homosexuals  are  men.  That  goes  with  the  part  about  being  invisible.  Lesbians  were  very   invisible.     The  men,  being  men,  well,  I  suppose  that  is  inappropriate,  the  experience  had  been  that  the   men  didn’t  organize  themselves  as  well  as  the  women  did,  that  the  community  thing  was  just   not  there  [for  men].  For  the  feeling  was  that  the  gay  baths  were  things  that  men  went  to  have   sex  as  much  as  they  could,  and  one  of  the  questions  we  would  get  asked  when  we  would  do   panels  on  “What  being  gay,  lesbian  was  all  about,”  one  of  the  questions  would  be  “Why  do  gay   men  have  so  many  sex  partners?”  because  at  that  time  stuff  was  coming  out  that  men  were   having  100,  200,  300  partners,  different  one  every  day  sort  of  thing,  and  that  the  AIDS  crisis  was   spreading  because  of  those  multiple  partners.  So  one  of  the  questions  we  would  get  asked     12   �when  we  would  do  mixed  panels  was  “why  do  men  have  so  many  partners?”  and  the  response   from  the  men  [on  the  panel]  was  well,  “our  understanding  is  that  if  heterosexual  men  could   find  the  partners,  they  would  have  as  much  sex  as  we’re  having.  You  [heterosexual  men  in  the   audience]  just  can’t  find  the  women  that  were  willing  to  do  it  as  often  as  men  are.”  That  was   their  response.  Because  of  the  idea  that  the  men  were  going  to  the  baths  not  to  learn  people’s   names.  Again,  if  you’re  persecuted,  it’s  better  that  you  not  know  the  other  person’s  name,  so   they  would  make  up  names  when  they  were  in  the  baths.  They’d  choose  a  different  name.   There  was  one  man  actually  in  our  Lansing  community  who  went  by  one  name  at  work,  which   was  his  legal  name,  and  chose  another  name  within  the  community.  A  full  first  name  and  last   name  and  would  publicize  a  newsletter  under  that  pen  name  as  it  were.  When  he  was  in  the   women  and  men’s  community,  as  we  got  to  working  together,  he  went  by  that  pen  name  rather   than  his  work  name,  just  to  protect  himself.     When  the  AIDS  support  groups  got  started,  the  majority  of  them  were  started  by  women.  The   majority  of  them  were  started  by  women  who  were  bisexual,  and  almost  always  in  the  medical   field.  In  some  manner  they  were  nurses  or  they  were  doctors  that  were  trying  to  support  the   AIDS  community  with  an  AIDS  network.  Again,  it  wasn’t  just  gay  people  being  affected,  gay  men   being  affected.  That  was  what  was  making  the  larger  community,  the  heterosexual  community,   so  angry  is  that  there  were  people  being  affected  by  blood  transfusions,  being  affect  by—for   the  women,  for  the  heterosexual  women—by  their  spouse  being  a  gay  man.  Again,  obviously,   not  a  gay  man,  but  a  bisexual  man,  but  at  that  time  it  wasn’t  viewed  that  way.  It  was  a  man  who   was  gay  lying  to  his  wife.  He  was  lying  to  his  wife  because  his  religious  community  wouldn’t   accept  him  if  he  came  out.  It  was  just  a  vicious  circle.     The  women’s  community  in  Lansing,  the  AIDS  community  was  three  women,  at  least  two  of   them  bisexual,  who  had  started  that.  It  wasn’t  talked  about,  wasn’t  said,  it  was  only  known   inside  of  the  community.  It  was  not  a  public  knowledge  thing  because  these  women  wanted  to   get  general  support.  They  needed  money  from  the  general  public  so  they  weren’t  going  to  say   [that  they  were  bisexual  or  lesbian].  They  were  just  these  wonderful  helping  women  who  were   doing  this  good  thing  for  these  poor  men.  That’s  how  the  general  public  looked  at  them  and   they  [the  women]  were  just  fine  with  that  as  long  as  the  general  public  was  giving  money  to   help  support  the  medical  needs.  So  to  go  back  to,  did  any  of  us  feel  threatened  at  the  time?   Yes.  And  the  women  chose  to  support  the  men.  Rather  than  just  being  silent,  lesbians  came  out   in  support  of  the  male  community  because  they  knew  if  somebody  was  going  to  put  gay  men  in   a  camp  because  they  might  have  AIDS,  it  wasn’t  going  to  take  long  before  they  start  coming   after  the  lesbians.  So  it’s  one  of  those  times  I  saw  lesbian  separatists  working  on  a  panel  with   gay  men.     You  got  to  understand  before  all  this  happened,  gay  men  were  some  of  the  worst  misogynists  in   the  group.  They  hated  women,  a  lot  of  them,  they  were  very  active  in  making  sure  that  women   didn’t  have  political  power.  These  were  men  that  were  hiding  as  senators  and  as  Congress   representatives,  very  vocal  against  homosexuality  and  very  vocal  against  women.  Some  of  the   strongest  misogynist,  fem-­‐phobic  [people]  were  gay  men  masquerading  as  straight  men  in   political  power.  So  here  we  have  the  lesbians  seeing  that  in  order  to  protect  themselves,   they’re  going  to  have  to  talk  with  these  men  who,  some  of  whom,  hate  women,  but  because     13   �the  AIDS  crisis  is  causing  them  to  need  somebody  to  support  them—it  was  a  very,  to  me,  a  very   heroic,  a  very  moral  bond.  There  was  a  morality  there  that  was,  to  me,  just  amazing.  And  as  this   continued,  the  men  began  to  see  it  and  began  to,  I  mean,  there  was  a  picture  of  a  Pride  march   and  here’s  this  gay  man  sitting  on  the  lawn  with  a  big  huge  poster  sign  on  a  stick  that  said   “Thank  you  lesbians.”  It  just  was  something  that  up  until  the  AIDS  crisis  just  wasn’t  happening.   New  York  had  its  Pride  march  and  had  had  it  for  over  ten  years  but  the  rest  of  the  nation  wasn’t   responding  the  same  way.  Again,  if  they  were  women  they  weren’t  getting  together  with  men.        49:11   TP:  Were  there  solely  female  Pride  marches  or  solely  male  Pride  marches?     49:16   EW:    There  were  Pride  marches—in  New  York  City,  there  was  a  very  strong  women’s  group,  and   you  know,  they  were  going  to  be  part  of  that  pride  march.  Any  place  else,  the  Pride  marches   that  might  have  occurred,  occurred  mostly  with  men.  But  it  is  interesting  because,  well,  it’s   been  said  that  the  ones  who  has  the  least  to  lose  are  the  ones  that  are  the  most  active,  and   when  you  look  at  the  power  structure  and  the  economic  structure  of  the  gay  community,  there   is  a  big  gap  there.  In  the  weirdest  kind  of  ways,  if  it’s  two  men  who  are  white  and  have  high   power  jobs—engineers,  architects,  doctors—the  wage  income  and  what  you  could  lose  if  you   came  out  is  very  high.  So,  you  have  a  high  wage  earning  power  and  you  have  a  high  risk  of   losing  everything  if  you  came  out.  And  then,  on  the  other  extreme,  was  our  women  lesbians,   who  have  very  low  income  and  very  little  political  power,  who  have  very  little  to  lose  by  coming   out,  unless  you  are  talking  about  their  children.  If  they  have  children,  then  they  have  a  whole   lot  to  lose.  And,  in  between  that  were  the  swish  queens,  the  homosexual  males  who  were   people  of  color,  and  who  were  very  effeminate,  who,  even  when  they  were  working,  had  a  hard   time  not  swaying  their  hips,  or  having  limp  wrists,  or  having  lilting  voices.  So,  those  couples  had   low  earning  power,  usually  ended  up  being  what  is  called  direct  staff,  in  terms  of  working  in   nursing  homes  or...  Actually  it  was  mostly  nursing  homes.  I  can’t  think  [of  any  other  jobs]   because  even  the  hairdressers  had  more  power  than  the  ones  working  in  the  nursing  homes,  or   the  interior  design  companies.  So,  when  Stonewall  happened  it  was  those  people  of  color,  men   of  color  in  those  kinds  of  jobs,  of  being  low  wage  earners,  very  swish,  and  the  women  who  were   dressed  in  male  attire  with  their  female  partner,  who  had  the  least  to  lose  and  were  the  most   likely  to  rebel.  I  don’t  remember  how  we  got  off  on  that...     53:12   TP:  That  is  alright.   53:15       EW:    Oh  you  were  asking  about  pride  marches,  so  in  some  situations…  There  were  never  any   just-­‐female  pride  marches.  It  is  one  of  those  history  parts  that  somebody  who  is  trying  to  work   on  a  doctoral  thesis  might  do  research  on.  Anyway…     53:43     14   �TP:  So  you  mentioned  moving  up  to  Lansing  and  before  that  there  is  a  much  more  active   community  up  there.  For  events  like  Stonewall,  did  you  see  any  changes  in  the  community,  an   influx  of  people  coming  through?     53:56   EW:  Well,  Stonewall  happened  in  ‘69.  I  did  not  go  to  Lansing  until  ‘83.  I  was  very  active,  once   the  AIDS  thing  started,  I  became  active  in  the  AIDS  network.  And  at  that  point,  some  of  the  men   were  taking  the  risks  of  coming  out.  There  was  no  pride  march  until  after  the  AIDS  crisis  got  to   be  bad  enough  that  the  women’s  community  and  the  men’s  community  came  together.  So  this   is  in  Lansing,  a  town  that  had  300,000  people  at  that  time  and  was  right  next  to  East  Lansing,   which  is  the  home  of  Michigan  State  University.  Michigan  State  being  part  of  the  late  ‘60s-­‐  early   ‘70s  war  resistant  colleges,  universities.  In  ‘74,  they  had  written  a  gay  ordinance  in  the  sense   that  they  offered  legal  protection  to  gays  living  in  East  Lansing.  So,  East  Lansing  had  a  very   active  women  community,  part  of  the  university,  which  spilled  over  into  Lansing.  But  I  don’t   think  there  was  anything  going  on  with  the  men’s  community  and  I  don’t  think  that  came  out   until  the  AIDS  crisis  had  brought  the  two  communities  together  in  the  mid-­‐eighties.  So  there   was  not,  as  far  as  I  know,  a  pride  march  until  after  that  in  Lansing.  We  are  talking  the  Midwest   area,  what  was  going  on  in  the  east  coast  in  the  northern  sections,  the  northern  states,  and   what  was  going  on  in  the  west  coast  in  terms  of  California  and  Oregon,  I  don’t  know.  I  am   thinking  that  they  had  pride  marches  by  that  time,  because  Harvey  Milk  was  there  in  San   Francisco  and  I  think  his  murder  happened  in  the  late  ‘70s.  That  was  again  a  community  of   women  and  men  coming  together  trying  to  elect  this  man.       56:52   TP:  So  you  mentioned  that  you  were  active  during  the  AIDS  era,  were  you  in  any  vocal  groups   that  came  out?     57:03   EW:  We  had  the  AIDS  network  and  we  would  do  panels  for  high  schools,  religious  groups  if  they   wanted  it,  any  social  group  that  has  any  community  group,  civic  group  that  asked  us,  we  would   go  and  talk.  In  the  same  time,  there  was  the  human  rights—Michigan  Organization  for  Human   Rights—that  same  group,  the  network,  the  AIDS  network  group  and  the  Michigan  Organization   group  had  their  housing—I  can’t  think  of  offices,  what  little  offices  we  had—in  Lansing.  And  as   the  human  rights  organization  tried  to  get  an  ordinance  passed  in  Lansing,  the  capital  of   Michigan,  we  would  go  out  as  speakers,  as  mixed  panels,  and  go  to  high  schools,  so  there  was  a   group  doing  it  for  the  AIDS  support  and  there  was  a  group  doing  it  for  human  rights   organization,  equality  and  support.       58:33   TP:  So  you  had  this  very  interconnected  and  you  felt  safe  in  this  community  here  in  Lansing?     58:39   EW:  Yes     15   �   58:42       TP:  So  could  I  ask  why  did  you  move  over  to  Virginia?     58:47   EW:  So  for  eleven  years,  my  Quaker  group  and  most  everybody  I  knew,  assumed  that  I  was   lesbian.  I  knew  I  was  not  necessarily  [a  lesbian].  Going  to  a  Quaker  conference,  I  met  this  fella   and  he  lived  in  New  York  City  and  I  had  not  been  in  a  relationship  for  eleven  years,  so  when  I   was  talking  to  my  Quaker  friends  in  Lansing,  [I’d  say]  “I  met  somebody,”  that’s  how  I  would  lead   off,  “I  met  somebody,”  and  they  go  “Oh,  who  is  she?”  and  I  say  “well,  she  is  a  he”  and  then  we   talked  about  that.  And  I  basically  followed  him  out  to  New  York  City,  but  I  could  not  handle  New   York  City,  so  I  ended  up  in  New  Jersey  for  two  years  and  then  we  kind  of  broke  up,  and  in   between  all  of  this  my  mother  died,  and  so  the  agreement  with  my  younger  brother  who  is  still   in  the  state  [Michigan]  was  my  younger  brother  would  take  care  of  my  dad  and  I  would  take   care  of  my  mom,  so  mom  died,  dad  was  still  alive,  and  we  had  this  agreement  plus  my  then-­‐ boyfriend  was  in  New  York,  so  I  moved  out  to  New  Jersey,  spent  two  years  out  there  trying  to   make  a  go  of  it,  that  did  not  work.  Here  I  am  on  the  east  coast  not  wanting  to  move  back  to   Lansing  because  it’s  cold.  Michigan  winters  are  just  plain  cold,  and  I’m  trying  to  figure  out  do  I   want  to  go  to  the  southwest,  because  originally  I  thought  about  going  to  Arizona  or  New   Mexico,  just  simply  for  the  change  in  scenery.  Michigan  is  green;  Arizona  and  New  Mexico  are   brown.  I  was  wondering  what  a  desert  environment  would  be  like,  to  live  there,  but  that’s  five   days  travel  and  I  did  not  have  the  money  to  get  a  mover  to  do  that.  So  I  was  looking  to  what   was  on  the  east  coast  that  I  would  want  to  say  I  was—what  state  would  I  be  proud  to  say  I  was   from—and  I  knew  there  was  a  Quaker  meeting  in  Roanoke,  Virginia.  I  had  lived  in  New  Jersey   for  two  years,  the  cost  of  living  in  New  Jersey  was  incredibly  high,  and  it  was  like  running  in   place.  I  did  not  know  how  anybody  could  manage  it  and  I  did  not  want  to  repeat  that,  so  when  I   talked  to  a  friend  who  had  lived  in  Virginia,  I  said  “what  area  in  Virginia  can  I  live  in  and  not  be   doing  a  New  Jersey  cost  of  living?”  and  she  said  “anything  south  of  the  Richmond  Corridor,”  so   here  is  Roanoke  and  here  is  a  Quaker  meeting.  I  decided  to  come  to  Quaker  meeting  here.  So   that’s  how  I  got  to  Roanoke,  to  the  southwest  area.  I  got  a  house  in  Roanoke,  had  it  for  five   years  then  decided  it  was  too  big  for  me  and  wanted  to  come  back  out  to  the  woods,  so  I   moved  to  Floyd.     1:02:15   TP:  So  did  you  find  that  in  Roanoke  was  there  an  access  to  a  community  there?     1:02:20   EW:    I  did  not  find  it.  I  know  that  there  must  be  one  in  the  sense  that  there  were  two  gay  bars— there  are  no  longer  two  gay  bars.  And  because  of  the  Metropolitan  Community  Church  which  is   a  church  based  on…  It  is  a  Christian  Church  open  to  homosexuals,  was  started  by  a  gay  man  out   in  California,  I  don’t  remember  which  one,  might  have  been  Los  Angeles.  So  I  knew  there  was  a   women’s  community  in  the  sense  that  there  were  women  going  to  that  church  [Metropolitan     16   �Community  Church  of  the  Blue  Ridge]  and  they  were  active  in  the  pride  march  in  Roanoke,  but  I   was  not  finding  an  individual  women’s  community,  nothing  like  what  Lansing  had.       1:03:28   TP:  So  you  mentioned  going  to  two  bars  that  are  no  longer  around,  do  you  remember  what  they   were?     1:03:33   EW:  One  of  them  is  gone,  The  Park  has  closed,  they  decided  to  shut  it  down.  It  opens  up,  as  I   understand,  during  the  Pride  March  events,  Diversity  Roanoke  or  Roanoke  Diversity,  I  think  it  is   Diversity  Roanoke…  puts  on  the  Pride  Event  and  The  Park  opens  up  for  those  events  as  far  as  I   know.3  But  for  some  reason  two  years  ago  or  three  years  ago—2012,  2011—something  like   that,  The  Park  just  shut  down,  they  said  it  was  not  worth  their  time.  The  Backstreet  Cafe,  I  guess   it  has  been  around  for  quite  a  while.  And  Roanoke  does  its  Pride  March  in  September  because   about  ten  years  ago  or  fifteen  years  ago—I  think  it  occurred  before  I  came  to  Roanoke  in  2003,   so  at  least  fifteen  years  ago—a  man  whose  last  name  was  Gay  and  who  resented  the  fact  that   that  name  meant  something  now  about  who  he  was,  walked  into  the  Backstreet  Café  with  a   gun  and  shot  two  people,  killed  a  man  and  wounded  a  woman,4  and  the  Pride  March  that   occurs  in  September  does  that,  rather  than  June,  in  memory  of  the  shooting.  But,  as  far  as  I   know,  Backstreet  is  still  open.       1:05:40   TP:  I  believe  that  The  Park  has  come  under  a  new  management  but  I  believe  they  are  still   operating.     1:05:45   EW:  Are  they?     1:05:46   TP:  Yes.  I  am  not  sure  though,  this  will  be  something  we  have  to  check.     1:05:51       EW:  My  experience,  they  might  have  different  nights,  but  my  experience  is  it  is  a  very  techno   beat.     1:06:01   TP:  Yes                                                                                                                   3  This  reference  may  be  to  the  Roanoke  Diversity  Center,  the  region’s  first  LGBTQ  community  center,  which   opened  in  the  basement  of  Metropolitan  Community  Church  on  Jamison  Avenue  in  2013.  Roanoke  Pride,  Inc.  is  a   different  organization  that  is  in  charge  of  organizing  the  annual  Pride  in  the  Park  festival.   4  On  the  night  of  September  22,  2000,  Ronald  Edward  Gay  shot  seven  people  inside  Backstreet  Café  on  Salem   Avenue  in  Roanoke.  He  killed  one  person  and  wounded  six  others.       17   �1:06:02   EW:  And  again  I  don’t  like  dancing  to  that  very  often.  I  mean,  I  could  do  a  little  bit  of  it.       1:06:10   TP:  So  because  of  that  shooting,  were  you  still  in  the  Roanoke  area  when  that  shooting   occurred?   1:06:16   EW:  I  don’t  think  I  came  into  the  Roanoke  Area  yet.       1:06:18   TP:  Okay     1:06:19   EW:  I  think  it  occurred  before  2003.       1:06:23   TP:  Did  you  feel  worried  hearing  about  it?     1:06:26   EW:  No,  because,  again,  there  was  not  a  strong  community  there  even  at  that  time.  When  I  first   got  involved  with  the  Pride  March,  which  I  think,  was  2004,  it  was  meeting  at  Highland  Park   over  in  a  little  corner  of  the  park  and  there  might  have  been  a  hundred  and  fifty  people  sitting   and  listening  to  a  band  play  and  then  there  was  singing  going  on,  and  there  was  some  female   impersonation  going  on.  They  did  not  move  to  Elmwood  Park  until  2005  and  even  then,  it  was   done  on  a  Sunday.  Because  on  a  Sunday,  the  downtown  is  basically—nobody  is  there  and   everybody  is  at  church—so  they  [the  heterosexual  public]  are  not  going  to  come  and   demonstrate  against  any  parading  that  was  going  on.  So  the  first  two  years,  that  they  were  in   Elmwood  Park,  before  they  would  start  the  events  in  Elmwood,  they  would  parade  [around]  the   block  and  they  did  it  on  the  sidewalk,  the  street  was  not  closed  down  and  half  of  the  people   that  were  there  did  not  participate  in  the  parade  because  they  did  not  want  to  take  the  risk  of   somebody  driving  by  with  a  gun.  So  there  has  been  some  major  changes,  both  in  the  size  of  it,  I   believe  it  happens  two  days  in  a  row  now  and  the  fact  that  they  shut  down  the  streets  to  have   the  parade.5       1:08:20   TP:  Have  you  found  that  there  is  a  different  look  on  the  community  here  different  to  Lansing  or   to  Michigan?                                                                                                                     5  According  to  an  informal  history  written  by  Charlotte  Eakin,  Roanoke’s  Pride  in  the  Park  was  held  in  Wasena  Park   from  1989-­‐1995;  Highland  Park  from  1996-­‐2003;  and  Elmwood  Park  from  2004  to  the  present.  See  Charlotte  Eakin,   “PRIDE  History,”  c.  2006,  http://www.roanokepride.org/history.html  (Accessed  March  24,  2016).     18   �1:08:30   EW:  Definitely.  Definitely.    It  is  sort  of  like,  how  I  can  say  this?  It  is  sort  of  like  when  integration   really  started  to  take  effect  in  the  black  community,  the  black  community  just  kind  of   disappeared,  in  the  sense  the  business  people  went  out  of  business,  the  sense  of  we  will  take   care  of  our  own  kind  of  disappeared  and  got  absorbed  in  the  larger  [community],  so  now  you   can  integrate  with  white  folks,  but  you  are  going  to  disappear  into  them,  because  they  are  the   majority.  And  as  the  northern  states  began  [to  move]  towards  more  acceptance  with  the  gay   community,  the  gay  community  began  to  disappear  into  the  general  community  and  wearing   the  rainbow  colors  became  blasé.  You  just  don’t  see  that  kind  of  identification  of  being  proudly   out  up  north  as  much.  Of  course  there  is  always  New  York  City,  there  is  always  San  Francisco,   but  coming  down  here  and,  again,  seeing  the  smallness  of  the  parade  and  the  cautiousness  of   the  parade  and  now  that  it  is  more  open  and  people  feel  somewhat  safer,  [although]  there  is   still  that  sense  of  backlash  could  happen  at  any  time.  There  is  a  lot  more  rainbow  color  wearing   and  deliberately  identifying  outlandish  outfits.  What  was  not  going  on  in  Lansing,  that  I  did  not   see  it,  it  probably  was  there  but  I  did  not  see  it,  [because]  there  was  a  real  sense  of  being   politically  correct  in  Lansing.  So,  you  did  not  see  female  impersonators  in  the  parade,  you  did   not  see  female  impersonators  in  the  entertainment,  you  did  not  see  women  dressed  as  men,   male  impersonators,  and  you  did  not  see  what  would  be  called  foo-­‐foo  fem.  Lesbians  wearing   fancy  dresses  and  high  heels  and  lipsticks.  It  just  did  not  happen.  Make  up  was  just  not  worn  by   the  women.  The  men  did  not  wear  it  [in  Lansing],  whereas  down  here  in  the  Roanoke  area,   female  impersonators  are  part  of  the  parade.  They  are  definitely  part  of  the  program,  male   impersonators  are  definitely  part  of  the  program.  In  Lansing  there  was  just,  I  did  not  see  my   first  male  impersonator  until  I  came  to  Roanoke  and  saw  it  at  The  Park.  I  was  stunned.  I  could   not  believe  what  was  happening.  It  was  like  “seriously,  we  are  doing  this?”  And  at  that  time  I   would  have  said  “nonsense,”  if  it  had  happened  in  Lansing,  it  would  have  been  called  “bullshit.”   But,  yes,  so  there  is  a  difference  of  what  is  politically  correct  up  north  versus,  in  my  sense,   versus  of  what  is  down  here  which  is  more  heartfelt,  more  personal,  more  raw,  very  much   identifying  with  “I  need  to  do  this,  it  is  essential  because  I  am  not  allowed  to  do  it  anyplace   else.”  The  gay  community  here  has  not  integrated  into  the  larger  community  and  so  that   identifying  with  the  rainbow  colors  comes  out  in  the  parades  a  lot  more  because  that’s  where   you  are  allowed  to  do  it.  I  do  not  notice  a  whole  lot  of  holding  hands  in  the  events  and  in  the   parade,  just  isn’t  done,  that’s  still  sort  of  flaunting  it.  Whereas  if  you  go  up  north,  there  is   probably  a  lot  of  smooching  going  on,  holding  hands,  kissing,  and  hugging.  That’s  just  doesn’t   show  up  here,  again  that  sense  of  you  don’t  know  what  the  larger  community  is  going  to  do  if   you  flaunt  the  fact  that  you  can  actually  kiss  your  lover  or  your  partner.         1:13:31   TP:  So  when  you  moved  down  to  Floyd,  was  there  any  distinct  difference  between  Roanoke?     1:13:40   EW:  Not  in  that  sense,  because  I  did  not  make  a  connection  with  a  women’s  community.  When  I   was  in  Lansing  I  got  a  women’s  soccer  league  started,  and  one  of  the  ways  I  got  it  started  was   appealing  to  the  lesbian  community.  I  put  an  ad[vertisement]  in  The  Lesbian  Connection  which     19   �is  an  international  newsletter.  I  put  an  advertisement  in  the  Lesbian  Alliance  which  was  a   separate  group  [local,  not  national].  This  town  [Lansing]  was  big  enough,  this  capital  city  town   was  big  enough,  to  handle  two  separate  groups  of  women’s  community,  and  they  were  the   ones  that  came  out  and  formed  the  core  of  the  soccer  league,  and  for  the  first  I  would  say   eight-­‐nine  years,  ninety  percent  of  the  board  was  lesbian  but  you  weren’t  out  [didn’t  say  you   were  lesbian]  for  it.  Because  what  we  were  trying  to  do  was  attract  the  heterosexual  soccer   mom  family  who  would  make  the  core  of  the  league,  make  the  majority  of  the  league.  When  I   came  to  Roanoke  and  tried  to  do  the  same  thing,  I  went  to  the  Metropolitan  [Community]   Church  and  appealed  to  the  only  place  I  knew,  for  a  women’s  community,  and  got  women  out   to  play.  But  nobody  would  volunteer  for  the  board  and  that  was  a  big  difference  for  me,  made  it   much  harder  for  me  to  organize.  It  took  a  lot  more  of  my  energy  because  we  weren’t  a  group   whereas  in  Lansing,  there  was  seven  members,  eight  members  on  the  board  and  only  one  of   them  was  not  a  lesbian.  Whereas  here,  I  don’t  think  there  was  anybody  on  the  board,  except   myself,  who  was  bisexual  or  lesbian,  so  it  made  a  difference.  I  just  have  not  been  able  to  find  to   connect  with  a  separate  women’s  community.  It  is  very  much  integrated  into  the—it  is  a  gay   community  rather  than  women’s  community.       1:16:01   TP:  Have  you  found  a  difference  since  the  gay  movement  has  picked  up  and  gotten  so  much   cover  and  so  much  national  recognition  that  it  is  starting  to  become  this  thing  where  it’s  okay   and  that’s  what’s  coming  out  of  this  pride  and  this  acceptance  that  we  haven’t  really  seen   before,  that  kind  of,  the  rainbow  colors  burst  through,  have  you  seen  a  difference  down  here  in   Floyd  or  in  Roanoke?     1:16:29   EW:  We  had  our  first  Pride  parade  in  Floyd  two  years  ago,  this  would  be  the  third  year,  and  I  say   would  be  because  we  are  really  having  problems.  It  is  only  happening  because  of  myself  and   two  other  people.  The  [larger]  community  is  very  supportive  if  we  go  ask  them  for  help,  but  if   the  three  of  us  decided  we  don’t  have  any  more  energy  for  it,  then  it  just  would  not  happen.   The  very  first  parade  we  had  [we  had  to  march  on  the  sidewalk]  and  we’re  still  marching  on  the   sidewalk.  Part  of  that  is  because  Floyd  only  has  two  main  streets  and  both  of  those  are  state   roads.  Some  diesels  come  through  on  both  of  those  and  to  block  that  off  takes  a  big  deal  with   V-­‐DOT  [Virginia  Department  of  Transportation]  and  the  state  permission  sort  of  thing.  They’re   reluctant  to  block  off  any  of  those  main  streets  for  us  marching  on.  Anything  else  we  would   march  on  would  be  side  streets  and  that’s  not  the  same  [as  main  street]  so  we’re  still  walking   on  the  sidewalk.  We  started  out  with  about  forty  people  and  then  we  moved  up  to  fifty  people   and  that  seems  to  be  where  we’re  at.    We  don’t  seem  to  be  going  any  further  than  that  …  and   again  there  is  only  the  three  of  us  doing  it  …  at  any  point  we  could  all  just  say  “enough,”  and  I   don’t  think  it  would  happen  any  further…  I’m  thinking  that  in  the  northern  states  when  you’re   not  in  the  rural  areas  there  is  a  real  sense  of  safety  that  didn’t  exist  before.  Particularly  with  the   Supreme  Court  deciding  what  they  decided  with  the  marriage  situation.  But  you  don’t  have  to   go  very  far  into  the  rural  areas  in  the  southern  states...  I’m  not  sure  what  the  southwest  states   are  like,  but  in  the  southern  states  you  don’t  have  to  go  very  far  out  before  it  becomes     20   �dangerous  to  be  out.  I  saw  a  bumper  sticker  here  in  Floyd  that  said  ‘Disappear  Fear,’  and  it  was   in  rainbow  [colors].  The  idea  being  that  if  we  stick  together  we  can  make  the  fear  that  keeps  us   from  being  who  we  are  disappear  but  I  think  that  bumper  sticker  speaks  to  the  fear  that  exists   down  in  this  area.  I  never  saw  anything  like  that  in  the  northern  …  in  Michigan  I  never  saw   anything  like  that.       1:19:36   TP:  Do  you  feel  like  [the]  threat  here  for  that  persecution  is  more  real  than  it  was  in  Michigan?     1:19:41   EW:  Oh  definitely,  from  among  other  things  the  gun  laws  that  Virginia  has.  This  is  an  open  carry   state.  It’s  a  shell  issue.  If  you  want  a  concealed  weapon  ...  even  when  we  do  the  parade  march   now  I  worry  “is  somebody  gonna  drive  by?”  And  it’s  been  very  bluntly  said  that  this  [the  Pride   March]  could  only  happen  in  Floyd.  If  you  try  to  do  it  in  Franklin  or  in  Patrick  County  the  danger   would  be  higher.  There  is  something  about  this  town,  its  artistic  mix  with  the  farmers,  the  way   that  the  small  business  owners  respect  each  other  whether  you’re  Democratic  or  Republican,   whether  you’re  a  hippie  or  an  old  farmer.  That  kind  of  integration  occurred  back  in  the  late   sixties  and  early  seventies  and  worked  its  way  through  so  that  the  attitude  of  this  town  is  one   of  those  few  towns  where  you  could  actually  have  a  pride  march  in  a  rural  county.  It  just   wouldn’t  happen  in  other  rural  counties  because  they  don’t  have  a  town  like  Floyd.     1:21:06   TP:  Have  you  found  people  coming  from  these  other  counties  to  Floyd  to  find  this  community?     1:21:13   EW:  That  would  be  our  hope,  but  it  hasn’t  happened  at  least  as  far  as  we  know.  Anything  that’s   happening  here  in  Floyd  in  some  manner  ripples  out  to  Franklin  and  Patrick  County  and  it’s  one   of  the  reasons  that  we  try  to  keep  the  parade  going.  But  I  haven’t  noticed  any  particular   strangers  or  group  of  people  or  crowd.  Again,  I  think  while  they  might  be  happy  that  it’s   happening  here  in  Floyd  and  Floyd  might  be  a  symbol  of  “it  could  happen  in  our  town   eventually”  anybody  who  wants  to  feel  more  safe  goes  to  Roanoke  for  the  Pride  March.  That  is   why  they  [Roanoke]  moved  from  a  one  half-­‐day  event  to  a  two  full-­‐day  event,  I  think  two  full   days.  Because  they’re  getting  people  from  the  other  counties  to  feel  safer.  Unfortunately  what   that  means  is  the  people  that  come  have  to  be  able  to  drive  a  car  and  usually  what  that  means   is  the  high  school  students  who  can’t  drive  a  car  don’t  have  that  permission…  they  don’t  have   any  outlet  to  help  them.     1:22:41   TP:  So  you  mentioned  that  you  started  a  women’s  soccer  [league],  have  you  found  that  it’s   been  helpful  to  those…  So  is  it  geared  towards  younger  women  or  is  it  geared  towards  college   age  or  older?     1:22:56     21   �EW:  You  have  to  be  eighteen.  That’s  the  only  way  we  save  the  terms….  Injuries  and  liability…  so   in  both  leagues  you  have  to  be  eighteen.  In  Lansing  we  were  able  to  quickly  form  a  recreational   division  and  a  competitive  division.  And  now  they  have,  I  believe,  an  over-­‐forty  division.  But  in   Roanoke,  that  didn’t  happen.  The  Lansing  one  started  in  the  mid-­‐eighties  so  it  was  a  lot  of   women  who  had  never  played  soccer  before.  The  Roanoke  one  started  in  2011  so  a  lot  of  the   women  that  were  coming  through  had  played  soccer  in  high  school,  played  soccer  in  college,   they  knew  how  to  play  soccer,  that  keeps  it  very  young,  very  energetic  and  the  older  women   just  simply  drop  out…  well,  I  haven’t  been  able  to  play  [much]  yet  which  is  as  I  told  you  before  a   real  disappointment  to  me  because  I  haven’t  got  anybody  who  is  as  slow  as  I  am  to  play  with.     1:24:19   TP:  Have  you  found  though  that,  did  that  soccer  [group]  here…  I  know  you  mentioned,  in   Lansing,  that  [the  women’s  soccer  league]  almost  became  a  safe  spot  and  part  of  that  women’s   community?  Has  that  aided  at  all  here  or  has  it  just  kind  of  maintained  that  it  is  about  soccer   and  that’s  it?     1:24:36   EW:  Yeah…  It’s  about  soccer…  It’s  not…  again  I  didn’t  make  that  connection.  If  there  is  a   women’s  community  in  Roanoke,  I  did  not  make  that  connection.       1:24:45   TP:  And  you  haven’t  found  one  here  in  Floyd?     1:24:46   EW:  No.  The  women  that  I  have  met  have  been  heterosexual,  bisexual,  but  not  lesbian.  There  is   not  that…  the  women’s  connection  here  mostly  has  to  do  with  new  age  philosophies.  There  is  a   feminist  sense  in  that  they’re  talking  about  women’s  things  but  there  is  no  political  power   behind  it…  no  desire  to  make  a  political  power.       1:25:37   TP:  So  what  do  you  see  for  the  future  of  Floyd?  Do  you  see  it  changing  any  time  soon?  Do  you   hope  that  it  will  become  a  big  central  hub  with  how  things  have  been  in  politics  and  such  like   that?  Do  you  think  that  this  will  die  out?     1:25:55   EW:  You  mean  like  the  Pride  March?     1:25:57   TP:    The  pride  march  but  also  that  sense  of  community,  do  you  think  that  will  be  able  to  build   up  here  in  Floyd  or  do  you  think  that  it’s  [too]  rural?     1:26:13     22   �EW:    I  think  it’s  gonna  be…  I  think  it’s  going  to  be  absorbed  by  the  larger  community  here.  I   think  the  parade…  unless  people  step  forward,  the  parade  is  gonna  stop.  This  is  not  going  to   occur  anymore.  But  there  is  a  movement  on  that  is  to  protect  the  high  school  students  in  the   sense  [that  there  are]  too  many  suicides  and  how  much  that  might  be  related  to  the  fact  that   some  of  those  people  might  be  gay…  So  in  the  way  that  Floyd  is  political  in  terms  of  the   environment—the  pipeline—is  political  in  terms  of  local  food,  the  gay  community—the   non-­‐existing  gay  community—will  just  become  part  of  it.  I  don’t  think  it’s  gonna  have  a   separate  identity.  I  think  it’s  going  to  be  one  of  those  things  where  everyone  is  welcome  for   that  [larger]  group  because  again  this  is  still  a  Republican  county,  so  you  have  that  sense  of   conservative  Christian-­‐centered  group  and  then  you  have  the  “everyone  is  welcome”  new  age   group.  The  interesting  thing  is  that  with  the  Supreme  Court  decision  it’s  more  acceptable  to   identify  in  some  way.  It’s  more  acceptable  to  be  in  a  partnership  as  long  as  you  don’t  flaunt  it,   you  don’t  hold  hands,  you  don’t  kiss.  If  you  go  to  church  you’re  accepted  as  long  as  you  are   silent  in  terms  of  having  a  partner.  I  honestly  don’t  know  how  the  future  will  move.  I  can’t  get  a   good  sense  of  it…  not  growing  up  here…  I  think  if  you  talk  to  someone  who  grew  up  here  they   might  have  a  much  better  sense  of  it.  I  mean  any  place  that  can  support  a  place  like  Blue   Mountain  School,  Spring  House  Community  School,  it’s  a  very  small  town  and  it’s  got  at  least   two  private  schools.  And  they  have  the  Roanoke  Symphony  people  come  up  here…  very  much   into  the  arts.  Anybody  who  is  gay  in  a  partnership  can  find  a  place  here,  a  safe  place…  as  long  as   the  art  community  still  exists,  as  long  as  the  local  food  [community]  still  exists…     1:29:50   TP:  Do  you  have  advice  for  someone  who  is  growing  up  in  this  area?  Would  you  recommend   that  they  stay  here  or  do  you  think  that  if  that  food  and  if  that  artistic  influence  were  to  go   away,  do  you  think  that  it  would  become  unsafe  for  them?     1:30:10   EW:  Definitely  [unsafe].  The  suffragette  movement,  the  feminist  movement  made  a  big  leap  in   1920  when  they  got  the  vote.  It  took  seventy-­‐five  years  to  get  to  that  point,  seventy-­‐two  years,   something  like  that.  Then  things  died  down  because  there  were  two  world  wars.  Things  moved   ahead  during  the  second  [world]  war  in  terms  of  women  were  doing  things,  just  like  in  the  first   war,  that  they  could  not  do  before.  But  when  the  men  came  back,  the  men  had  to  have  the   jobs,  so  the  women  were  told  to  go  back  into  the  house.  Those  steps  forward  as  far  as  the  civil   rights  movement  and  the  black  community’s  concern,  there  was  the  Reconstruction  era  where   black  men  got  elected  to  Congress  but  then  that  stopped  and  there  was  this  huge  backlash  in   terms  of  Jim  Crow  and  then  that  kind  of  moved  forward  with  the  Harlem  Renaissance  period   and  again  black  men  being  soldiers.  In  World  War  II,  the  services  were  integrated  but  there   were  no  jobs  for  those  black  men,  so  there  keeps  being  this  backlash.  A  black  president  got   elected.  It  is  very  possible  that  this  won’t  happen  again  for  thirty,  forty,  fifty  years.  Some  people   say  that  this  divide  between  Republicans  and  Democrats  is  a  backlash  to  the  fact  that  a  black   man  got  elected  president.  So  this  thing  about  gays  being  married,  I  would  not  be  surprised  that   within  ten  fifteen  years  there  is  more  violence  against  gay  men  and  women  than  there  is  now.   Because  there  seems  to  be  in  the  US,  there  seems  to  be,  this  liberal  idea  surges  forward  and  the   this  conservative  idea  says  [vocal  sound  meaning  ‘not  so  fast’].  It  is  not  possible  anymore  to     23   �discipline  your  children  the  way  you  used  to  be  able  to  discipline  them.  It  is  not  possible  for  a   man  to  physically  abuse,  a  husband  to  physically  abuse  his  wife  the  way  he  used  to,  and  even   the  churches  have  stopped  saying  “if  a  man,  if  your  husband  is  beating  on  you,  you  should  take   it  because  your  husband  is  the  head  of  the  household,”  even  the  churches  have  stopped  saying   that.  So  there  is,  you  can  look  back  and  say  a  hundred  years  ago  we  made  this  movement   forward,  but  there  is  always  this  forward  back,  forward  back.  If  someone  who  grew  up  here  and   is  gay,  they  would  need  to  leave  and  then  come  back  if  they  found  the  inner  strength  to  identify   who  they  are  and...  I  think  that  almost  every  kid  growing  up  in  a  small  town  moves  out  as  soon   as  they  can  and  maybe  at  some  point  comes  back,  so  part  of  that  is  just  a  general  small  town   thing,  and  the  additional  part  is  that  person  is  gay  and  so  that  person  grew  up  with  the   prejudice  that  goes  with  that,  of  being  different.  Full  lesbians  and  full  homosexual  males  are   only  ten  percent  [each]  and  only  form  twenty  percent  of  the  [general]  population  so  that  makes   them  out  of  the  norm  automatically,  and  high  schools,  junior  high  schools  being  what  they  are,   that  means  they  get  picked  on.  Usually  people  leave  and  then  maybe  they  come  back.       1:34:51   TP:  But  do  you  see  hope  for  the  community?  Do  you  see  hope  for  these  young  people?     1:34:56   EW:  Yes,  they  can  always  go  to  a  big  city.  New  York  and  San  Francisco,  the  big  cities  are  always   more  forgiving.       1:35:07-­‐1:36:38     Section  removed  by  EW  as  not  relevant.     1:36:38   TP:  Well,  as  an  ending  question,  if  there  is  anything  that  you  would  be  able  to  give  advice  and   not  just  to  you  know  someone  in  the  community  but  to  anyone…  do  you  think  how  you  have   lived  your  life  and  how  looking  back  in  ways  that  you  would  have  wanted  to  be  different  or   ways  that  you  are  very  happy  about  what  you  did?  Is  there  anything  that  you  could  give  advice   of  you  know...     1:37:13   EW:  I  am  shaped,  my  personality  is  shaped  from  my  parents  and  the  way  they  raised  me.  I   would  only  wish  that  everyone  else  could  have  that  kind  of  experience.       1:37:43   TP:  Well  thank  you  so  much  for  talking  to  us,  for  sharing  your  story,  we  really  appreciate  that.       1:37:49   EW:  Thank  you  for  asking.       1:37:54     24   �TP:  Of  course!     1:37:59             25   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Edna Whittier Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Edna Whittier Interviewer:Tessa Pleban Interviewee: Edna Whittier Date: 2 March 2016 Location: Floyd Public Library, Floyd,VA Total Duration: 1:37:59 Transcription prepared by: Mahmoud El-­‐Hazzouri and Jessica Hopkins Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2 March 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edna Whittier; Tessa Pleban; Mahmoud El-­‐Hazzouri; Jessica Hopkins Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhittierEdna https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2620/Wyman_Rosemary.1.MP3 f43328d5f7120653cdcb28a19491178f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2620/Wyman_Rosemary.pdf 5dcd3127f2d3c2b66dd2013061225d4c PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Rosemary Wyman February 27, 2016 Interviewee: Rosemary Wyman   Interviewer: Rachel Barton Date: February 27, 2016 Location: Floyd, Virginia   Duration: 50:13   Transcription prepared by Rachel Barton 0:00 = childhood in Suffern, New York (1950s – 1960s) & and reflections on her parents 5:30 = attending one year of college in Boston (1970/1971) 6:20 = moving to North Carolina and meeting her first husband (early 1970s); then second husband (1980); about her family and children 8:08 = motherhood & about her children 13:08 = raising her gay son (who was born in 1987) 15:11 = the story of her son coming out as gay (late 1990s / early 2000s) 17:45 = facing harassment and bullying at Floyd County High School (early 2000s) 20:14 = experiencing partner abuse in a same-sex relationship at VCU (2000s) 22:58 = founding Floyd PFLAG in c. 2009-2010 27:39 = involvement in LGBTQ activism 29:48 = feelings of self-worth among LGBTQ youth 34:21 = reflections on the future of LGBT rights in Floyd, and on activism within PFLAG 40:18 = intersectionality within LGBTQ activism? 42:27 = reflections on changes in youth culture from the 1960s to today 46:20 = role of Floyd PFLAG with transgender youth   1   �0:01 Interviewer: My name is Rachel Barton. I’m here with Rosemary Wyman. It’s the 27th of February 2016 and we are in Floyd Virginia doing an LGBT oral history project for Dr. Rosenthal’s class.1 So Rosemary, would you mind starting by telling me a little bit about where you grew up? 0:23   Rosemary: Yeah, I wasn’t born in the South. I was born in Suffern, New York, which is about 30 miles from New York City. My dad worked in the city primarily, and it was like this. It was rural like this when I was growing up. I was born in 1952 and graduated high school in 1970, so the ‘60s were kind of my period of coming of age. I was the youngest in my family. Four older brothers, very traditional Christian family. My mother was a Catholic, raised us as Catholics. My father was an Episcopalian and, you know, was all work no play. [laughter] 1:12   Interviewer: [laughter] Pretty strict? 1:15   Rosemary: Pretty strict! Although we did have a lot more freedom than children now have in terms of exploring and learning to know themselves. 1:26   Interviewer: Yeah? So as far as growing up in New York, what would you say was different or similar about where you grew up to Roanoke? 1:38   Rosemary: Okay. Well, New York to Roanoke was not similar at all. 1:46   Interviewer: Yeah? Very different? 1:48   Rosemary: My mother actually had a friend who grew up in Roanoke and we loved her. Her name was Francis Avery and she was a southern belle for sure. But we were afraid of the South, because, you know, I remember all of the bitter struggles around desegregation. And all of the ugliness was the news that came to us. And so, I can remember saying to myself and to my friends, I will never ever live in the South, so… 2:20                                                                                                                           1    The  class  is  INQ  300:  Sex  &  Storytelling.  It  took  place  during  the  spring  semester  2016  at  Roanoke  College.   2   �Interviewer: Yeah, it had that connotation. 2:22   Rosemary: [laughter] So discrimination was something that my mother as a social worker and a political activist worked really hard against. You know, she…I’m going to sort of flip flop here. 2:37   Interviewer: Oh, that’s fine. 2:39   Rosemary: She certainly had tolerance for people who were homosexual or lesbian. I don’t think she had any awareness of folks who were bi [bisexual] or transgender. You know, that was kind of beyond her realm. She died in 1997. But, interestingly, she picked up on the fact that my son, who was eleven when she died, was probably gay. 3:10   Interviewer: Really? 3:11   Rosemary: And she sent me a message through one of her care providers after she died. This lady Mary came to me and said “You know, your mother didn’t want to say anything because she didn’t want to act like this was a given.” Because Max hadn’t identified himself at that point. “But, she said to tell you that if it turns out Max is gay, she is fine with that.” 3:38   Interviewer: That’s great! 3:39   Rosemary: So, anyway, that tells you a little bit about my mother. My dad was not very tolerant of differences. [laughter] 3:47   Interviewer: Yeah? He wasn’t a political activist? 3:50   Rosemary: No! I once dated an African-American, and he wasn’t happy about that. 3:58   Interviewer: But your mom did political activism? 4:00   Rosemary: Yes.   3   �4:01   Interviewer: It surrounded segregation particularly? 4:04   Rosemary: Yeah, she taught graduate students at Fordham University, and she and her teams would do these sting operations on landlords in our area [laughter] 4:15   Interviewer: Wow! So it was pretty involved activism? 4:19   Rosemary: Yeah. 4:20   Interviewer: Wow, so as far as growing up and coming of age in the ‘60s in New York, what was that environment like? Was there a lot of social activism going on? You were aware of the South and the differences that were happening…. 4:33   Rosemary: Yeah, and, of course, New York during the ‘60s was a pretty wild place, kind of like it was on the West Coast, too. There was…well, at that time there was a lot of crime in New York City, but as a teenager it was kind of my playground, and so I got to see a lot of great rock and roll [laughter] 4:59   Interviewer: [laughter] a lot of good shows? 5:01   Rosemary: A lot of, you know, interesting war protests were happening there, and I went to school for a year in Boston, and [protests were happening] also there. Yeah, I don’t think anything as I was a young child or before my teenage years really….except for being brought up in a rural area. It doesn’t really translate to here. 5:25   Interviewer: Yeah, it was a totally different kind of environment. 5:27   Rosemary: Yes. 5:30   Interviewer: So, you mentioned going to school in Boston, what was that like?   4   �5:37   Rosemary: I thought I really wanted to go to school there. There are tons of arts there, and I’m very interested in the arts, but because I came from a place like this and I was put in the heart of the city, I really couldn’t stand it there [laughter] 5:55   Interviewer: [laughter] too much going on? 5:58   Rosemary: Yeah, I needed to feel connected to the earth. So I wasn’t prepared for that, and I think I kind of spiraled into a depression. I really didn’t know what I was doing, I didn’t know what I wanted to be or do, so…. 6:12   Interviewer: Was this when you were in college? 6:14   Rosemary: Yeah, it was like 1970, ’71. 6:16   Interviewer: So you went to Boston for a year, what did you do after that? 6:20   Rosemary: Then I came back home, lived in my hometown, not with my parents, and I worked in a bookstore. Then I left there, and went and lived on a farm that was owned by my sister-in-law’s parents. My brother was flying in Southeast Asia, and she had taken her kids back to her parents’ area, so I went and lived there for a while, and then I moved from there to Chapel Hill. 6:51 Interviewer: Chapel Hill, North Carolina? 6:53   Rosemary: Yes, and worked at the student bookstore there. Moved from there, with another bookstore job, to Charlotte, North Carolina. And that’s where we met—that’s where I met my husband. My first husband and I had two children together, and then Walter and I got together in 1980, and he had four children, I had two children, and we raised those children together and had two more children, Max and Emma. 7:28   Interviewer: Wow, so a big household? [laughter] 7:30     5   �Rosemary: Yeah, a family of eight kids. 7:32   Interviewer: Wow! How’s that? 7:35   Rosemary: It’s crazy! [laughter] You know, everything in our environment is really geared for the smaller family. 7:45   Interviewer: Right, absolutely. 7:47   Rosemary: If you think about how much money people are spending on raising one child, we managed to do it on an income—one working income—of a self-employed person because he did a lot of bartering, and, anyway, it was a very different scene. 8:08   Interviewer: How would you say that having all your children, having this big family, affected you? 8:23 Rosemary: [laughter] Well, I kind of came into life knowing two things that I wanted: that I wanted to be a mother and that I wanted to be a nurse, and the nurse thing didn’t really happen to me until much later. But, I got my wish. And it’s been my primary spiritual path I guess, trying to learn how to, you know, put my own desires aside and put others first. Learning how to do that, that’s been the primary effect of it. It’s been hard to know who I am and what my rhythms are, so once the nest was empty, I kind of had to really devote myself to figuring those kinds of things out, because I’d been stretching myself really thin for a really long time, and I didn’t quite know who I was anymore. 9:27   Interviewer: Right, so motherhood for you, you would describe as kind of a spiritual aspect of your life? 9:35   Rosemary: Yeah, and a lot of joy too. 9:37 Interviewer: A lot of joy? 9:40     6   �Rosemary: And the reason I go to Charlotte every week right now is to be with two of my grandchildren, and I don’t really like to go to Charlotte. I like it in the country. But because those kids are there and the time is very limited to be with them… they bring a lot of joy into my life, and I think the relationship offers them something they wouldn’t have otherwise. 10:05   Interviewer: Right, so can you talk a bit about all your kids? What they do, what they’re like? 10:11   Rosemary: Yeah. Okay, we have a daughter who is 46 years old, or will be this year. She has two children, one who’s 24 and one who’s 18, and her 24 year old has two children. She lost her husband about 12 years ago, so she’s really struggled to raise her children, and it’s been a huge challenge for her. She lives in North Carolina, outside of Charlotte. Then we have a son, Joshua, who is 45? 44? [laughter] And twins who are 42, I think, and all three of those guys have Fragile X syndrome. They were diagnosed early in elementary school, so they’ve been special needs guys, but they’re actually pretty high functioning. They feed and dress themselves, they have their own interests. They do need quite a lot of guidance and supervision, and they all live in group homes in Charlotte. So that’s one of the reasons my husband still goes down there to work a couple of days a week, to see them and support them and love them. I have a daughter who lives in Charlotte with two grandchildren, she and her husband. She moved back to Charlotte; she went to school in Atlanta. She’s an attorney and her husband is on the road a lot, so they’re grateful for the support that we’re able to give them during the week. I have a son, who is an exmarine, lives in San Diego. He is a structural engineer, and he would be 37, my daughter is 38, and then there’s like nine years between that son and Max, who was born in 1987. That’s whose wedding invitation, or save the date, I gave you.2 So he was born in Charlotte, and kind of from the age of two, was looking really different to us from all the other kids. 13:08   Interviewer: Yeah, so it was kind of immediately recognizable? 13:10   Rosemary: He went through a phase where he needed to wear dresses all the time. 13:16   Interviewer: As a child? 13:18   Rosemary: Yeah. Really, from age two on that’s all he wanted to wear. And we used to have struggles. 13:31                                                                                                                           2  This  item  is  part  of  Rosemary  Wyman’s  series  within  the  LGBTQ  History  Collection,  Virginia  Room,  Roanoke  Public   Library.     7   �Interviewer: It was a challenge? 13:32   Rosemary: Yeah, because he wanted to wear them to preschool, and it was not the environment that it is today. It’s pretty tough for people today. So, I can remember having conversations with him. He would want to go to the grocery store with me and he would want to be wearing his dress and his red patent leather shoes, and I would say “Okay, but when the lady comes up to me and says ‘what a cute daughter you have,’ I’m not going to set her straight. But it’s going to be up to you if you want to not say anything or say anything.” And I think, you know, at the time, I met—I think it was the year that Max was born—I met somebody in a support group who very shortly started the transition from male to female. And so, for me, that was incredibly important in terms of knowing how to be with Max, knowing to just back off, let him… of course I wanted him to be safe. [laughter] We did insist that he wear pants to regular school, you know? And he’s not a transgender person, but he does identify as gay. 14:55   Interviewer: When you first noticed these differences in him, did you think maybe it was a gender identity thing? What was your perception of it? 15:07   Rosemary: Yeah, I thought it was a gender identity thing. 15:10   Interviewer: And he was really young? 15:11   Rosemary: Yeah, I grew up as a dancer and actually danced professionally for a while in Charlotte and had gay friends. I don’t have any sisters that were born into my family, but my sister by choice whom I met in high school is a lesbian, so I was pretty familiar with how different people, kind of, present to the world, and Max presented as very feminine in the world. So I felt like it was a gender identity thing, and, you know, he didn’t really come right out and say so until he was in seventh or eighth grade. 15:55   Interviewer: He was in middle school? 15:57   Rosemary: Yeah. 15:59   Interviewer: How did he bring it up to you guys?   16:03     8   �RW: Well, he had a really good friend here in Floyd—I guess it was ninth grade really—because we were just letting him…. he had long hair, we were just letting him be who he was. But, at school, they were pushing him to identify, and he actually had some child say that he was going to kill him. He came to us with that, so we talked about it, and I basically said: “Hey look, this is what we’ve noticed. We’ve noticed this for a long time. Who do you think you are?” And then once he…. I guess at that point he felt like he was free and safe enough—because we were asking and saying we will support you—to identify himself as gay. And then we were able to address it with the school system. He had quite a bit of harassment, he actually had teacher harassment there at Floyd County High School, and we had to go in and basically… I think the teacher was unaware of his behavior. He thought he was just teasing.   17:31   RB: mhmm, just a joke?   17:33   RW: So he needed to be educated. [laughter] But anyway, I forget what the original question was.   17:43   RB: [laughter] That’s okay.   17:45   RW: But that’s when he came out, so we have been with him on that journey and encouraging him. Oh, I remember when that death threat happened, I said to him “Hey Max, you don’t have to go to school today if you don’t want to.” And he had been a person who was kind of not engaging in after-school activities or things. We were new to the area. I had let him home school the first year rather than go back to elementary school because elementary school goes through seventh grade here. He’d already been in an arts middle school in Charlotte, and just didn’t want to do the backtracking. So, he said “No, I’m going.” And we stepped up, talked to the sheriff, talked to the principal, the other child was dealt with. And from then on it was kind of like, he said “fuck it!” [laughter] And he just went for whatever he wanted in high school, and he was extremely popular, and he was very gifted, and did a lot of things really well, and just kind of came into his own despite those sort of threats that were on the edge of his social group.   19:18   RB: So, would you say the community around here, the community in Floyd, was relatively accepting of your son in high school? Or was it…   19:24   RW: There were elements that certainly were, and then other elements that were just very neutral, and then there were other elements that were vocal.   19:37     9   �RB: Vocally against?   19:38   RW: Yeah.   19:39   RB: How did he deal with that and how did you guys deal with that?   19:44   RW: Usually we would talk about it, occasionally we would confront it, but mostly he just kept his friendships… he’s a good friend, and he kept them strong, and let other people worry about their own stuff.   20:10   RB: So, for the most part it could be, kind of, pushed away? 20:14   RW: Yeah. Of course, it’s one thing when you’ve got somebody where you can protect them. When he went off to school in Richmond he went to VCU [Virginia Commonwealth University], and there were some things that happened there that were scary for us. He met and was involved with a young man in another city who, I think, was abusing drugs and alcohol and probably had a lot of self-loathing, and he was abusive. I can remember one night I was getting ready for bed here. We were all just about to crash, and Max called and said: “I just got back from this other place and here’s what happened.” I said to Walter: “We’re going to Richmond, and we’re going tonight.” Because, if it had been a daughter….I don’t know. I just felt like it needed an immediate response from us to say “this is not okay and you’re worth more than this.” And, for a while we kind of worked on that whole aspect of what he could hope for in a relationship, what he had the right to. That’s one of the things that I feel was a huge plus for me to abandon my first marriage and take up with Walter. My oldest daughter is very aware of what she was watching in my first marriage, and all my kids have ever seen from Walter is respect and love for me. I wish I could say that’s all I’ve ever given him [laughter]. I would have to be honest and say that I’m a pretty volatile person sometimes.   22:41   RB: So, your son went off to college in Richmond. What was the point where you felt like you were getting involved in the activism and reaching out in the LGBT community?   22:58   RW: Well, after the kids left, after Emma left, I did what was supposed to be a sensitivity training with the teachers at Floyd High School. One of the faculty asked me to come and talk to them. Our daughter is a lesbian, and she came through Floyd High School after Max, and she had a huge crisis also, but it was more just a personal inner crisis rather than being attacked at school. But one of the things that happened as a result was I developed relationships with other children   10   �who were fringe children, who were identifying as either gay or bi, and they would come to me and talk to me, whereas they weren’t safe in their own homes.   24:00   RB: With their own parents?   24:02   RW: Yeah, so I did some advocacy work with those folks, and then I went and basically told the faculty what they weren’t seeing.   24:11   RB: mhmm, so a big part of it was at the schools?   24:15   RW: Yeah, I’ve done some writing. That was a one-time adventure, really. I would go back any year, but we’ve actually encouraged other people to do that same thing so that we don’t always see the same face. I started the Floyd PFLAG with my friend Kim O’Donnell.3   24:37   RB: When did you start that?   24:39   RW: Well, I’m thinking it was maybe 2009 or ‘10. I’d have to look that up.   24:52   RB: It was after your kids had graduated from the school system themselves?   24:55   RW: Yes.   24:58   RB: So, when they were in school, what were the kinds of things that you were seeing that prompted you to want to start the PFLAG?   25:04   RW: Honestly, I don’t think I would have thought of starting PFLAG. But my friend Karen Day who runs the Plenty organization here also has a lesbian daughter.4 [She] was working with a group, and I’m forgetting the name of it now, it’s kind of similar to PFLAG. And she and I were                                                                                                                         3  Kim O’Donnell has also recorded an oral history interview for this project that is also housed in the LGBTQ History Collection, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Library.   4  Plenty! Nourishing Community, Feeding Hungry Neighbors is a grassroots organization based in Floyd, Virginia. http://www.plentylocal.org   11   �having some conversations, and she’s like “You know, maybe we should just start one here.” So, I went ahead and did that. It did not pan out the way I had hoped at that time, but I think…do you know who Jim Best is?5   25:47   RB: Yeah.   25:48   RW: Okay, so Jim has taken over the leadership there, and I think it’s a much more vital organization, and people are much more aware of it and, perhaps, more people who are just kind of figuring out that their kids or somebody else in their family…perhaps some people are coming more from that angle now. Before it was just a very small support group, and I didn’t actually need that support. I was kind of wanting to be there for people who were like “Oh my god! This is happening to us and our family!” [laughter]   26:26   RB: It was a crisis for them?   26:29   RW: Yeah, I wanted to give them a place to go, but it didn’t seem like, at that time, people in Floyd were utilizing PFLAG for that. We’ve marched in the pride parade here in Floyd a couple of times. It’s an itty-bitty parade but it’s fun. [laughter]   26:50   RB: Yeah, has involvement in PFLAG gotten better over the years, do you think?   26:56   RW: I think it’s a larger group and they’re doing more things.   27:00   RB: The community is more receptive to it?   27:02   RW: Yeah, I think so.   27:04   RB: Would you say the experience of having a gay child, having gay children, really pushes people to want to be more involved in that type of stuff?   27:15                                                                                                                           5  Jim Best has also recorded an oral history interview for this project that is also housed in the LGBTQ History Collection, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Library.     12   �RW: Oh yes. I’m trying to think how vocal I would be, you know? My heart would still be against discrimination, but, if it weren’t this personal, I don’t know. I don’t know how much time I would find for it.   27:39   RB: The kind of things you experience when it’s your child versus when it’s someone you don’t know. Are your children involved in activism at all?   27:48   RW: Somewhat. I would say they’ll show their faces for demonstrations and things like that. I don’t know. They kind of think of the world as their own. I can’t fully say that for my daughter but I think she’s getting to feel that way. It’s the other people’s problem, it’s not their problem. [laughter] Our daughter lives out in California and she belongs to a Zen community out there and the Zen community usually puts together a float for the San Francisco Pride Parade, so she’s participated in that.   28:52   RB: Pretty huge parade! Bigger than Floyd.   28:55   RW: Yeah, I don’t think that they’re tremendously active. I was going to say, I realized that before my kids were out, or had identified at all, I was doing demonstrations in Washington with my friend who was trans and my sister.   29:27   RB: So that was still something that you were involved in before.   29:31   RW: Yeah, I was doing things like that in a support role. It’s like, “Oh, you’re going to go do that, well I’ll come with you!”   29:43   RB: Yeah, show your support. Did it become more personal after your children…?   29:48   RW: Yes. When you see what effect society’s views about anything like body shape or skin color…what those views agitate in somebody. That whole notion of “am I worthy?” is something that I wish nobody had to go through, but I don’t want my children ever wondering if they’re worthy.   30:32   RB: Do you think that was something that they really struggled with initially after coming out?     13   �30:41   RW: Yeah.   30:43   RB: And that’s, to you, a societal problem?   30:47   RW: Yeah, I think one of the things that’s pretty well known about homophobia is that some of the folks who have it the worst are the people that are homosexual. That’s a big demon that they have to work through. One of the reasons Walter and I are so tickled about the partner that Max has now is because he came out to his family at about the same age that Max was when he came out. He had support within his family, and so the playing field is kind of leveled in terms of the amount of self-worth that they feel, and I feel like they’re on good footing. Some of the guys that Max dated who were newly out, they were in a horrible mess. They just didn’t know who they were and they were constantly either trying to please Max or please their parents or run away… it was kind of crazy.   32:08   RB: So, as far as the role of having a supportive family and going through that coming out process, how important is that to you?   32:20   RW: Well, I think if you think about any child who has gifts and challenges that they’re born with, we would hope that their family, their extensive family, would support them in having the courage to overcome their challenges and recognize their own strengths. So, I don’t see that as any different… all of our kids had big challenges.   32:55   RB: So, being gay is not necessarily distinguishable, as far as your role as a parent, from any other problem that children have?   33:10   RW: Right, as long as I cannot be shut down because I’m believing that it’s a sin or something. You know? That’s where those kids are really vulnerable, if their parents can’t even accept them as they are.   33:32   RB: And working through PFLAG, you had a lot of experiences with that, with parents who were very reluctant, with parents who, kind of, lash out?   33:44     14   �RW: No, those experiences, those things that I saw, are basically things that I saw when my kids were in high school. As I said, those folks really didn’t show up at PFLAG when I was there, and I haven’t been attending because we’re not around the days that the meetings are happening. I know people, I read accounts…   34:21   RB: What would you say is where you want to see PFLAG and the Floyd community going as far as their acceptance of an interaction with the LGBT community?   34:35   RW: Well, I would love for everyone in Floyd to know that PFLAG exists and for every child and parent who are in the school system to know that there is support if they’re wondering if they’re gay, if their parents are wondering if they’re gay. I think that going to other families who’ve been through the experience rather than going out to the minister who might try to set you on a path for a cure. [laughter] We know that that happens, and those cures are being taken down by some very strong activism. They’re being disproved, but that’s just another abuse. Little digression here, I grew up, as I said, in the ‘50s and ‘60s and, on my road there was a family who had about as many children as I did. Both parents were actors, and about 25 years into their marriage, the husband came out and went off and lived with a male partner. Back then, that was totally devastating. Here was somebody who had lived basically a lie and struggled with his own self-worth around it for all those years. He had kids that were born to him. My hope is that people don’t have to try to fit into some other kind of costume to live their lives.   36:52   RB: Right, the more people who can be open and honest from a young age…   36:57   RW: Yeah.   37:00   RB: Do you think, as far as the role of a parent is concerned, how essential is that?   37:07   RW: I think it’s really essential that parents not only see who their children are, but give them the space to figure it out for themselves. It was really important for us to not press our kids, and say “you’re gay! You’re gay!” It’s like, let them figure it out and find their own voice for how they say that.   37:36   RB: I guess there’s kind of a different path for everyone. You’ve seen your kids take very different paths as far as their lives… so what would you say is the most rewarding part for you about being involved in PFLAG and just being involved in this activism?     15   �37:57   RW: Well, I’d have to say [there are] big rewards in terms of just the personal stories. You know, my son getting married, out in public in front of everybody, in a public place! That’s something that for a lot of years we didn’t think was going to happen. We have really good friends, women who were together for 35 years, and one of the partners was suffering with dementia. When it became legal in Virginia to get married, they went ahead and got married. It’s only been a year or so, and that partner has now died, but it meant so much to my friend who’s still living to be able to sanctify that union. Both those ladies I think were brought up Catholic, and to be able to really come fully out and say “we have a right to be who we are, we love each other” in front of everybody and God. I’m sure the Catholic Church didn’t sanctify their wedding, but they had two lady ministers who were there who did that right here in Floyd, so yeah.   39:34   RB: That’s amazing! So would you say that gay marriage ruling really kind of changed the environment around…?   39:43   RW: Yes, I think it did. And I think it just kind of speeds up that snowball of everything that’s been trying to happen since the abolition of slavery really. It’s just kind of speeding things up to where we’re going to be really seeing all people with all differences as more and more the same. We’re all the same, you know? We all have that spark that goes beyond time, all of us have it. We’re all worthy.   40:18   RB: Absolutely. So, kind of going off your point about gay marriage relating to accepting all differences, going in that direction, is that a part of your activism as well?   40:41   RW: I’m not sure about that question, can you say that in a different way?   40:45   RB: Yeah, sorry. So you mentioned the importance of the gay marriage ruling and then how that signifies a move in the direction of accepting a lot of differences like the trans community, race differences, is that something that you would connect with your LGBT activism?   41:07   RW: Yeah, and I think, for me, that is also at the root of what I think we’re supposed to be here spiritually [for], to not only recognize that we’re all more the same than we are different, but that we also don’t have dominion over the planet any more than we don’t have dominion over each other. I must say it’s a discouraging time to live in in that regard, because I think there are a lot of people still blundering around thinking…. old white guys who think they’re in charge of the   16   �world and in charge of exploiting it for their own greed. But, I think, the more of us little people who recognize that we’re the same and everybody should be treated with the same respect, then the closer we get to making that shift.   42:27   RB: Yeah, for better. So kind of taking this full circle, you grew up in the ‘60s, that was this huge time of social progress and growth, and a lot was happening. What are some changes that you’ve seen over time? Do you think it’s been kind of a straight line [of progress], have there been a lot of snags? You mentioned at the beginning of the interview that you felt like back then there was some more freedom that children had to explore themselves and their identities, can you elaborate on that?   43:01   RW: Yeah, well I think kids were playing outside, they were playing outside most all the time that they could. Even in urban areas, kids were allowed to play on the street, and now there’s such a fear of who’s in the neighborhood. It might be a predator, and kids are very closely guarded and kind of overprotected, which we [gestures at her partner] were just talking about this the other day. If you’re free to roam in the woods around your house or just in your neighborhood, you learn things experientially that you can’t get from a parent telling you about them or a teacher telling you about them. You learn by trial and error how to cross the brook or how to get from here to there without getting lost. A lot of that experiential knowledge is not accessible to kids right now, and I think that that helps them to know who they are and to feel empowered about their own world. So I feel sorry about that.   44:24   RB: Yeah, it’s strange how that seems to have just had a complete flip. Would you say that now there’s a lot of pressure for kids to…they’re pressed into these identities of “you’re gay, or you’re bi” and there’s not…?   44:43   RW: I don’t know if anyone is pressing kids into those identities. I would think that…I don’t think socially people are…it’s not like there are recruiters out there.   45:02   RB: [laughs] right, no recruiters for the gay community….   45:05   RW: I mean, there are people who will exploit young men and young women, you know. Young teens, if they run away people will exploit them. Some people might say, “well, that’s a recruitment.” If they’re selling a boy on the street for sex, but if a person has their own ability to make up their mind how they use their bodies I think they’re going to figure out who they’re attracted to. And I suspect that a lot more people are just going to be like…they are attracted to the person and the spirit of the person regardless of what their sex is. I think that’s going to be   17   �more and more the case. I do think that there are people who are born in the wrong body, and I’m glad for all of the incredibly hard work that’s been done around that. The pioneers who were trying to change that… God, what was that movie? The Danish Girl… have you seen that?   46:20   RB: I’ve heard of it, I haven’t seen it though.   46:23   RW: Yeah. That’s some pretty rough old history right there. Even when my friend back in the early ‘90s was going through it, it was pretty rough. It’s a lot safer today to do those kinds of surgeries and those kinds of transitions.   46:46   RB: Does PFLAG do a lot of work with the trans community in Floyd?   46:55   RW: Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that Jim has had the wherewithal to do. He’s brought speakers, international trans folks have been here and the people in PFLAG feel free to talk about how they can support somebody they know is transitioning. So, I don’t know where that leaves the general population of Floyd. I mean, these are people [PFLAG supporters] who are kind of ready to look at that and do that work. I don’t think it necessarily helps the people who are resistant.   47:49   RB: Yeah, and there are certainly those people out there. Do you think as far as the topic of transitioning and being transgender… is that harder for parents to understand, do you think, than being gay or lesbian currently?   48:08   RW: I think it is harder to understand. I think there are more barriers to accepting that. Certainly in the age that I grew up, people would just be shaking their heads to think “hey, if you were born in that body, that’s who you are.” They would not be able to understand that inside you were somebody else.   48:40   RB: Right, it was unheard of.   48:42   RW: Yeah [laughs]   48:43     18   �RB: That’s definitely… that’s something that I feel like has really picked up in the last ten years or so.   48:49   RW: So now, I think feelings in general are being talked about more. So even if you can’t be totally genuine about what your… if you were to say to your parents “I’m a girl, I’m a girl” if you weren’t, what you might be able to say [instead] are all kinds of feelings that may be able to start to let the message seep in, because feelings in general are more acceptable, they’re more out on the table. People understand that it’s kind of a right to have feelings! [laughter]   49:34   RB: Right, luckily people get that!   49:36   RW: Honest to God, when I was growing up it was like “quit crying or I’ll give you something to cry about!” Or just these outrageous statements about what you’re feeling. That you don’t have any right to feel that way. I think feelings are more accepted.   49:55   RB: Yeah, and that’s definitely important for recognizing people’s identities and respecting them.   50:01   RW: Mhmmm.   50:04   RB: Well, I think we’re good. Thank you so much for your time. It was lovely.   50:12   RW: Thank you!     19   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Rosemary Wyman Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Rosemary Wyman Interviewee: Rosemary Wyman Interviewer: Rachel Barton Date: 27 February 2016 Location: Floyd, Virginia Total Duration: 50:13 Transcription prepared by: Rachel Barton Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 27 February 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosemary Wyman; Rachel Barton Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WymanRosemary https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2959/Boenke_Mary.MP3 9070f79b819108ebf003a1921711f3ea https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2959/Boenke_Mary.1.pdf dd3487338f9a0ef20e4d659f7c1104db PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Mary M. Boenke 6 October 2016 Interviewee: Mary M. Boenke Interviewer: Mariana Araujo Date: 6 October 2016 Location: Vinton, Virginia Duration: 01:01:49 Transcription prepared by: Erin McWethy, Chelsea Hutton, and Mariana Araujo 0:00 = growing up in the Great Depression; high school (1929-1940s) 2:45 = involvement in Civil Rights movement; March on Washington (1963); housing desegregation struggles in Cleveland Heights, Ohio; attending graduate school (1960s) 5:27 = story of her child coming out as a lesbian (c. 1975), then as transsexual (c. 1995) 8:42 = retiring and relocating from Ohio to Southwest Virginia (1990); founding the Roanoke Valley chapter of PFLAG (1992) 13:20 = more on the Roanoke Valley chapter of PFLAG (c. 1992 – 2004), activities and programs; advocacy on behalf of Wasena Park police sting victims (1998-1999) 19:27 = on the dissolution of the group c. 2004-2005 21:45 = publishing the Roanoke PFLAG newsletter 22:58 = operating a gay support helpline (1990s) 24:33 = operating an annual “coming out” workshop 26:21 = adding transgender issues to the PFLAG agenda; founding the Transgender Network (within PFLAG); PFLAG becomes the first national gay rights organization to support transgender people 35:57 = discussion of growing transgender acceptance and backlash 38:49 = working on the books Our Trans Children and Trans Forming Families (2000s) 43:51 = involvement in the Ricketson LGBT Memorial Library (early 2000s) 46:02 = reflecting on PFLAG’s contributions to the LGBTQ movement 47:49 = current status of PFLAG; desire for a local anti-discrimination ordinance to protect transgender Roanokers 50:45 = thoughts on social movements; Stonewall (1969); and the future of the LGBTQ movement 53:57 = the importance of global environmental issues 55:18 = final reflections; meeting celebrities; how her life has been changed by involvement in LGBTQ issues �0:00 [Checking of sound levels between Mariana Araujo, Chelsea Hutton, and Mary Boenke] 0:35 MA: Hello, my name is Mariana Araujo. Today is Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:20 in the afternoon. I am in Vinton, Virginia with Mary Boenke, and we are interviewing Mary for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ Oral History Project. So Mary, where did you grow up? 0:54 MB: Well, I grew up in Erie, Pennsylvania. That’s up on Lake Erie; and I’m the youngest of three children. My father was the chief design engineer of a small company that built very large steam engines for power plants, and lake freighters. His engines were good enough that this company thrived all during the Depression; and I was born in ‘29 [1929]. So, my mother used to say that I brought on the Depression. I never really knew about it until I was in college and took an Economics course. 1:32 MB: So, I had a very comfortable childhood. My parents were Presbyterian. My father was an avowed atheist, from the time I knew him. So, I had a choice, theologically… and a very comfortable childhood. I mostly went to public schools, but then to a Catholic Girl’s Seminary for high school. Very small, very poor academically, which I later discovered because I went to Wellesley College, which is one of the top women’s colleges in the country, and I really had a major adjustment to make there. I was always rabble-rousing, even in high school. We were testing restaurants, and talking to them if they weren’t serving negroes. You can tell the vintage of a person whether they say the nasty “N-word,” or negro, or black, or Afro-American, it’s by generation, yes. 2:45 MB: So, I was very active in the Civil Rights Movement. By then, I was married to John Boenke, and had three young children. We were living in Cleveland Heights [Ohio]; and we more or less helped desegregate Cleveland Heights. There were some home bombings in our neighborhood, and actually, I had gone to the Big March on Washington, in 1963, when Martin Luther [King, Jr.] gave his “I Have a Dream” speech. My Unitarian Church, social action committee, rented a bus, chartered a bus. We sat up all night, marched all day, sat up all night getting home; and that really motivated me to get active in the Civil Rights Movement. So, we started a group that first met in our living room, with about thirty-five women; and two weeks later, with fifty. Cleveland Heights is kind of an egg-headed community, just up the hill from Case Western Reserve [University]. So, we had a kind of a ready membership for that group. That’s where I really learned about calling meetings, talking to group community leaders. We got the schools to make their by-laws more black friendly, and we got the city council to hire a person …. we were showing homes to blacks in our basically white neighborhood, and that got some people pretty upset. We got the city to hire somebody to support that effort, and it was a very successful experience. 4:40 2 �MB: So, then I went back to school. I had graduated from college before I was married, but I went back to school at Case Western Reserve [University], and got a Master’s Degree in the School of Social Work, but not in one-to-one interviewing. It was in what we called Community Organization, CO, and I knew that’s what I enjoyed doing. By then, my husband had discovered that our activities were not helping his career in General Electric. So, he resigned and we moved to Dayton, Ohio, where I continued my Civil Rights activities, and raising our children. 5:27 MB: Let’s see, I didn’t get into gay issues until our middle kid finished freshman year at Oberlin, and came out as a lesbian. I thought for a while, “Oh, if we just hadn’t sent her to Oberlin,” which was a very liberal college, “maybe she wouldn’t be gay.” So, that’s the kind of innocent background I started from, and of course, I learned pretty quickly that that had nothing to do with it. Nineteen years later, she came out again as a transsexual. Both times we had not a clue, and didn’t have any clue that she was going to come out at either time, and knew nothing about being gay or transsexual. So, they were both pretty intense learning experiences for my husband and me. So, we were married and living in Cleveland Heights and had three small children, and that’s when I got into the Civil Rights Movement. 6:50 MA: So, sorry to [interrupt]. You were talking about, you know, your children, and I was just wondering, well, you know you talked about how you didn’t know about it at the time? How was it for your other kids or members of your family, your friends, your support network while you were learning? 7:13 MB: Well, we were very lucky because I was a social worker, and we were Unitarians, and very liberal in our theology and our social issues. So, it was not, neither time, it was not a problem for our family. It was scary because we didn’t know much about it or what was in store for our kid, and we worried that she, and then he, would have a lot of problems to face. But actually, he was very lucky. He came out as a transsexual, while our other son was in the hospital for Leukemia. It was what my husband calls “a challenging year.” We thought it was not good timing, on then Heidi’s part, to come out as a transsexual just when Mark was so ill, life-threatening really. But we’ve often said it was like having two suitcases to carry, you know. You might as well be carrying two as just one; and we weren’t free to worry full-time about either one. So, we were very lucky. They’re both very healthy, happy adults, now. So, we got through a tough period in our life. 8:42 MA: Do you think being so involved with the Civil Rights Movement and … Do you have any lessons that came from that, that kind of translated to your involvement with LGBTQ rights and going through this challenging year with your family? 9:03 MB: Well, it was because of our kid and his journey that I really got involved in PFLAG and found it just so interesting. So, I guess if I had any advice to other parents it’s learn about what your kid is going through. Read, talk to friends, make new friends. If some of your friends are 3 �not able to accept this, then go easy on them. They get to take their time understanding and accepting, but then you need to find some support for yourself, as well as for your kid. So, I worked as a social worker for most of my career, planning and starting new programs. I started a lunch program for senior citizens in Warren, Ohio; and administered a grant for another agency setting up homes for low-income people in middle class neighborhoods. That was a challenge for them and for the neighborhood. So, I fell into an active role quite easily. It was my life, actually. I describe myself as a born rabble-rouser. If I’m working on various issues. Right now, I’m thinking of getting a little more active in the right to die movement. It’s also closer to home [laughter], yes. But when we retired in 1990, and moved from Ashtabula, Ohio, up in the northeast corner of Ohio, we traveled around and finally selected the Roanoke area for our retirement. But I was bereft of a job and a career that I loved, and needed something to do. I started taking little seminars out at Roanoke College… no, Hollins… and then leading some workshops there. I asked at one point “If I could do a seminar on gay issues for families,” and the Director of the Women’s Center said “Well, she would have to inquire.” It went all the way up to the President, and the message came back down “Go ahead; it would be alright. They would be glad to sponsor such a seminar.” So, we advertised that seminar and said “Now if there’s interest, we would continue meeting.” So, six brave people came [laughter] to that little seminar, and we did indeed continue meeting, and that became the PFLAG chapter then. I think that was about in 1992. I had moved here in 1990, and it took me a year or two to find support for doing such things. 12:28 MA: Was there a particular reason why Roanoke was the place that you and your husband picked to move to? 12:37 MB: We had a list of about ten things we wanted in our retirement community. We didn’t have any friends or family here, but we wanted a Unitarian church. I wanted a beautiful area, hills and greenery and lakes, and so forth. We wanted good healthcare services, transportation, cultural facilities. We like classical music, and so forth. So, that’s how we settled on this area, and we’ve never regretted it. We’ve met a number of other people who have moved here because of the facilities, and the beauty of the area, without, necessarily, knowing anyone here. 13:20 MA: You know, I find it really interesting with the group in Hollins and the workshops and that leading to PFLAG. Could you tell us a little bit more about how that got started, and how you got involved in your activism in the community to get the chapter started in Roanoke? 13:44 MB: Well, the six people that, the six people that were involved in the initial startup all had friends, and as I said I’m a Unitarian. We started meeting at our church, and my church was very supportive. So, some of my church friends started coming, and then some gay folks, these were all parents and families, but then some gay folks started coming, as well, and they had friends. So, it just grew by word of mouth, and it was not a huge group. I mean, we got up to a dozen people at a meeting, or whatever. 4 �14:29 MB: We would usually have some kind of a program, a speaker, and a discussion, and refreshments, and then we would break up into a couple of smaller groups. One group would be a support group for people who were had problems, or questions, or wanted to share their story, confidentially, in a small group. We always had a leader for that group. The other people stayed on either to talk about the issues or the political situation, or whatever was of interest at that time. 15:12 MB: We continued for about twelve years, and then we stopped getting new people, and we decided to fold our tent and close down the chapter. There were no new people coming for maybe six months, and we were weary [laughter], I think, at that point. We thought, also, that gay people and gay issues had become much better accepted. That was part of the reason that people were not… we no longer got mothers crying [laughter] on our shoulder at meetings as we did many times before that. 15:59 MB: We were quite an active group. PFLAG talks about support, education, and advocacy. Support is meeting, and hugging, and telling gay folks, who didn’t want to be gay, that they were beautiful just the way they are, and it’s okay, and you can have a good life, and so forth. Education: we dispersed a lot of pamphlets, and printed material. We had speakers coming in talking about various aspects of being gay: medical issues, political issues, so forth. We had various gay people speaking about their own experiences. We sent out letters to churches, encouraging ministers to send us their gay folks who were hurting and needed support. We sent letters to doctors when we discovered that there were no medical facilities in Roanoke for trans, particularly for transsexual people, who were traveling all the way, you know, with a hundredmile radius of Roanoke to get to the hormones that they needed, and so forth. We had an annual fundraising meeting. It was a dinner meeting; and we all contributed our give-away stuff, and sold it, auctioned it off, and we raised money. We gave away $500 scholarships to one, or two, or three gay students every year. We were quite active. 17:52 MB: When the Boy Scouts started refusing to let gay people become members, and they wouldn’t let a gay man be a troop leader, we went to talk to the Boy Scouts. When there was a police sting in the park and a number of gay men were arrested, you know, we went to talk to City Council and to the mayor, and so forth.2 One of our members was an out gay attorney, Sam Garrison, and he represented the men who had been arrested. He had an amazing day in court where we all came and packed the gallery, so to speak [laughter]. Of course, he didn’t win that case, but he educated a few people in the process. [reflecting to self] Let me see, City Council, Mayor, the sting in the park, okay. So, we were a very active chapter. The current group, which has just pulled out of PFLAG, I think has been a very nice support group, but they have not been interested in outreach, and advocacy, political process, that sort of thing. Now, they are no longer a PFLAG group. 19:27 2 MB refers to the Wasena Park police sting and subsequent legal affair (1998-1999). 5 �MA: Just, you know, you were talking about the six months that there was no new people coming because, you know, things were getting better. You talked about how it might have closed down. What made you, you know, everyone, decide to stay, and then after that, did you see like new members coming, or like how do you see the issues and things that were about people getting better, or maybe getting worse through your time with PFLAG? 20:03 MB: Oh, we thought the country was becoming much more accepting of gays and gay issues, and that PFLAG was not as much needed as it was originally, and that since people were not, new people were not coming, we figured that being gay was no longer quite as big a tragedy [laughter] as people originally thought it was. So, we felt we were not as much needed and not accomplishing much. So, I’m in favor that some groups outlive their usefulness and just go on meeting because they like being together, but we all had other things to do. You know, we were active people. So, we didn’t feel this was a good use of our time anymore. I’m not sure we were correct. I think maybe if we had done some more active outreach, we could have perked up the group again, but we were tired by then. 21:12 MA: And that was what year? 21:14 MB: That would have been, we started… 21:17 MA: Or around what time? 21:18 MB: That would have been about 2004 or 5, in that range. We moved here in 1990. We started the group in ’92, and I know it went for about twelve years. We had a very big meeting for our ten-year anniversary, and then after that it sort of petered off. So, I think we closed down about 2004 or 5. 21:45 MA: Just to go back a little, can you—well, we were reading about it—can you tell me a little bit about the PFLAG newspaper, and how that got started, and how that kind of outreached to other people, and then, I guess the newsletter… 22:02 MB: Are you talking about the National PFLAG newsletter? 22:05 MA: No, this was the Roanoke one. 22:08 MB: Right. Oh, okay. I had forgotten that we did a newsletter. [laughter] I did a newsletter. [laughter] Well, we wanted something to be able to distribute in the community, and for the 6 �people who came to visit us to be able to take home to their family, and something to mail out to people who had come in the past and were no longer coming. So, it was our way of outreach into the community. I’m trying to think what in the world did we print in that newsletter, and I must have copies of it somewhere, but I don’t know where [laughter].3 22:58 MA: Well, one of the things I think we noticed, there was a helpline and it was your phone number from your home. Can you tell us a little bit about that? I know… 23:10 MB: Yeah, I think that was a fella by the name of John Goodhart, who is almost as old as I am. He was very good at answering the phone, and supporting, providing warm fuzzy support for people. He’s the one who coordinated the support part of the group, you know, after the speaker and the refreshments, and then we broke into smaller groups. He coordinated the support group, and I guess I more or less stuck with the issues and organizational kinds of things. 23:50 MA: Right, and when people, did you get a lot of phone calls? Also, you know, at that side of it or was it just an added…? 23:56 MB: No, no we would have maybe two or three a month. Not a lot. And I was very familiar with covering the phone, but I was happy to have someone else do it. I had previously, when I retired, I was sixty—I retired a few years early—I was the director of a 24-hour crisis line in Ashtabula, Ohio. So, I was very familiar with running telephone support. 24:33 MA: What were one of the things you found challenging, or maybe also really helpful in this movement to have a support line of people to call and talk about issues with someone? 24:47 MB: Well, people who called the support line, or people who were just beginning to realize they were gay, and they had not found much gay support, frequently scared to tell their… not out to their family… and the hardest thing a gay person used to have to do was to come out to their family, particularly to parents. Siblings were sometimes easier, or aunts, or uncles, or cousins, but parents were the scary part of the whole process…. Oh, yes. We used to run, almost every year, a coming out workshop. We used to have quite a good crowd for that. We would get twenty, thirty, forty people to a coming out workshop, and it was very easy to put on. We would get a representative group of people, you know, some gays, some lesbians. This was before transgender. Men and women, old and young, and each spend five or ten minutes telling their story, and where they were in their process. Then, again, break for refreshments and go into small discussion groups. If people in the audience were in the midst of their own scary process, it was very supportive just to talk and meet other gay people. Yeah. 3 Roanoke PFLAG materials from the 1990s are available in the LGBTQ History Collection, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Library. 7 �26:21 MA: Hmm, that’s interesting. You mentioned, the part before transgender, how did PFLAG add it? The transgender component? 26:32 MB: Ohhh, that’s a story. Again, I was so lucky. Our kid came out gay at a good time. I didn’t mention, I was one of thirteen regional directors working out of the national office. The country was divided into thirteen areas, regions; and I had a five-state area: Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, and D.C., that I covered. Every three months we would meet, the regional directors, would meet in an air hub somewhere: Chicago, San Francisco, wherever; and trade stories and help educate each other in this process. I had about thirteen, fifteen chapters in my region; and I traveled around to all of those every year. I would try to support them and suggest other activities that they could get into, and how they could strengthen their chapter, and so forth. That was a really fun thing, a lot of travel, meeting wonderful people who were all like myself, very dedicated and engrossed in the process at that time. So, I was a regional director for about, I did two two-year stints and then I was off for a while, and I came back and did another year or two. I have a nice little giften in my collection there for that. 28:13 MB: So, transgender. Our kid came out as a transsexual about eighteen years after he came out as a lesbian. So, he came out after his freshmen year. He was born in ‘50…‘57 [1957] [laughter]. So, he came out in about ’75 [1975] as a gay, and he came out in about 1995 or 6 as a transsexual, at a time when most people had never heard of this and didn’t know what to do. None of the gay organizations in the country were accepting of trans folks in their group. They were turning them away and saying “No, this is not the group for you.” Our son called us from— he was living in Portland, Oregon—and he called and he said “Hey Mom, what’s wrong with this PFLAG chapter here? They kicked me out of their meeting. They wouldn’t let me distribute a flyer about a transgender meeting.” So, I called the President of the Portland chapter. We got along fine, had a nice conversation. Not too long after that, we made a trip to Portland. We would go every year anyway to visit our kid. Our formerly leukemic son was in California, our gay trans kid is in Oregon, and our daughter in Vermont, is where they all still live. So, we went out and met the folks in that Portland chapter. And then the president who had a beautiful home, she was an artist and it was filled with fascinating stuff, set up a special meeting, kind of a party for us and we got to talk about transgender issues to that large chapter. And our kid, one of his friends, and a third person, all came and spoke from their personal experiences about what it was like coming out trans. So that was when I thought, “oh, this is what we need to do, is to make PFLAG aware of and educated about and accepting of transgender folks.” So, I came back home and started working on that. And, of course, luckily I’m not too far from Washington, I could do it in three and a half hours. So, I started visiting the National Chapter. The National Director was very supportive of trans. Most of the staff was okay with it, but we had several brown bag lunches with the staff and I developed a very dear friend, transgender, male-to-female, in the D.C. area and she would meet me and we would go together to the national office and talk with the staff there. So, then we started talking about how we make the whole organization aware, so we started doing a national newsletter and I developed a network within PFLAG which we called the Transgender Network. And I organized it just like the chapter itself was organized. I got regional people, who were either trans or straight but interested in trans issues in each of those 8 �regions. Then we all started recruiting a transgender representative for each PFLAG chapter. And there were then about 500 chapters. Some of them were teeny tiny, two or three people meeting in podunk somewhere. But there were 200 very sizable chapters meeting monthly, and so forth. And I traveled a lot; and I, of course, was meeting with my PFLAG regional directors regularly, every three months. So, I was getting them to identify people and chapters. Eventually we had Transgender Representatives, we called them T-Coords, Transgender Coordinators, TCoords in 200 chapters. My husband and I were putting together a newsletter, maybe two or three times a year, and mailing it out to every chapter and all the national board members. Eventually, we were getting the whole organization educated about transgender issues. I had maybe half a dozen close friends who worked hard on this with me. And then we met with the Bylaws Committee of the National Board and they drafted the changes that would be needed in the national bylaws to become officially transgender accepting. Then, I arranged a Transgender Conference in San Francisco to meet at the same time as the National Conference. At that National Conference, it was pre-arranged to vote on whether to change the bylaws to become transgender inclusive. There were maybe about 500 people at that conference. I was sitting at the back of the room, and I still get choked up talking about this because when it came to a vote on accepting the change in the bylaws, every hand went up except one fella across the aisle from me, and he just didn’t vote. And there were no nays, there were nearly 500 yays. And that’s how PFLAG became transgender accepting. And at intermission, I talked to the fella [laughs] who hadn’t voted for it and he goes “Well Mary, I’m not against it, I just think we’ve got our hands full trying to get people to accept gay issues and gay people.” So it was alright, I could accept one… what do you call it when they don’t vote? 35:10 MA: absentee? 35:12 MB: … an absentee… not an absentee, whatever [both laugh] 35:18 MB: We were the first national gay organization to become transgender inclusion. So then we started lobbying other gay groups [laughs]. I went a couple times to talk to the HRC staff, Human Rights Council [Humans Rights Campaign]. You’re familiar with that group? That was, at that time, the largest gay group in the country. 35:46 MA: Yeah, I think so. 35:48 MB: And we talked to them a few times, and a few other groups, and now it’s just assumed, if you’re a gay group you include trans. 35:57 MA: Do you think partnering with other organizations was part of that transition of not thinking of this issue as fully gay and lesbian issue but also transgender? And how did that help the community that PFLAG, all over the country, was working with? 9 �36:20 MB: I’m not sure, what’s the question? [softly laughs] 36:24 MA: Sorry. [laughs] I was wondering if PFLAG influenced, like you said with other organizations, and then spread… that when you talk about this issue you also include transgender issues. And how did that mirror the people that would come to PFLAG in Roanoke and other places that you have been to also be accepting of this new…? 36:52 MB: Well, I think national groups gradually blended. There was, at that time, also quite a gap between the M to Fs [male-to-female transgender persons] and the F to Ms [female-to-male transgender persons]. And they are emotionally very different groups. You know, the male to female, they like to dress up and flounce around in their high heels and make-up and fancy clothes. And the female to male, they’re more into sloppy jeans and t-shirts, and so forth. So, there had to be a blending there as well as blending in with the gay groups. But I think at this point, although the differences still exist, they’re not cause for any ill feeling or separateness… And yes, I think that having the meeting on the national level was important. I’ve been amazed, as everyone has been amazed, at how fast the country has moved towards gay acceptance, and now transgender acceptance. I’m waiting to see what’s going to happen in North Carolina with this bathroom issue. I don’t understand why a bunch of female-to-male transmen haven’t started using the lady’s room and waiting for the women to come screaming out the door, saying “There’s men in the lady’s room,” and for them to say “Well, if you want us to take our pants down and you can see for yourselves that this is the gender we were born into and that’s what your law says!” 38:37 MA: Exactly. 38:38 MB: So I think that’s a law that just can’t hold up. It’s going to be very difficult to enforce. 38:49 MA: No, I agree. Let’s talk a little about your books and the material that PFLAG has distributed. I know that you won an award, the American Eagle—if I’m correct—award with the Our Trans Children book. How did that… you know, having this material and others as well that you had contributed…? 39:20 MB: I’m not remembering the group you’re talking about. I did get several nice awards and I’ll show you my little collection [laughs] after we finish talking. But I became aware very early on that there was no material that trans folks, for instance, could take to their parents or their families and say “read this, this will answer a lot of your questions.” So, one of my dear friends, Jessica Xavier, who lives outside of Washington [D.C.] and works now for the federal 10 �government on transgender issues, was actually the main author for this little booklet5 [Mary pulls the booklet off of the table] but it was my idea and I recruited Jessica to work on this. And we tried doing it by email and her first draft read like a doctoral thesis. And we said, “No, no, Jessica, this is for ordinary people” [laughs]. And I’d tell everybody, we discovered a better way to work than email and that was in person. She came down for a weekend [laughs] and we went through it sentence by sentence and made it readable, you know. And we printed ten thousand of these. We did it on—this is just one grade above newsprint—so we could do it very inexpensively and we sold these for three for three dollars or twenty-five for eighteen dollars including shipping. So, we sent these out free to everybody. Later when I did my own book6, I sent a free copy for five hundred people, all the PFLAG chapters and board members and so forth. It’s called priming the pump [laughs]. And that’s how this got started and it still is a good quick read for families who are just starting from scratch to learn about PFLAG. Now we gave the copyrights of both these items to the National Office and they’ve rewritten this. And they now print out a beautiful, slick brochure that’s—I don’t know—a dollar and a half each or two and a half each, or something like [that], so they’re not going to get the kind of bulk distribution that we got with these. When I would get a new edition printed, I would spend a couple of days counting out five of them and putting a rubber band around them, twenty-five, twenty-five, twenty-five, twenty-five… ten thousand into bundles of twenty-five. And then packing and mailing them as requested. And we made a little money on them even at that inexpensive price which is how we could afford other mailings like our national T-Coord newsletter, T-Net [Transgender Network] newsletter to all our T-Coords in all our chapters. The book… I started going to Transgender conferences and gradually met a few other families and parents, particularly, Karen and Bob Gross from the Cleveland area became very active, and realized that there was no substantial material that kids could hand their parents and I was beginning to meet other families who were accepting so I got them each to write four- or five-page chapters, little articles. And I collected those and edited them. I had to make them grammatically correct, but I didn’t want to change the style so I would kind of play around. I did a lot, a lot, a lot of emailing those days. You know, I was corresponding with forty different authors and two hundred TCoords. I was very busy for a few years. 43:51 MA: I’m sure. You were doing wonderful work. You know, when we talk about books and we read a little bit about how PFLAG created a library, could you tell us a little bit about that and how was that helpful for the community? 44:08 MB: Well, I would trade books whenever I went to a conference or buy other people’s books and they started coming out suddenly with lots and lots of material. So, I brought them back and [at] our PFLAG chapter meetings, one of our members would carry a cardboard carton to every meeting with various kinds of books and people could borrow those and so forth. So, it was available to our members. And then there was a very wonderful guy, Ed Harrison [Harris], who was actually a gay Baptist minister, Southern Baptist minister. And Ed started collecting a library and that was available at this place on Grandin Road where a number of health-type people and 5 “Our Trans Children”, 4th edition, a publication of PFLAG. A copy of this booklet was donated by Mary Boenke to the LGBTQ History Collection, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Library. 6 Mary Boenke, Trans Forming Families (2008), PFLAG Transgender Network. 11 �Tai Chi and massage, and so forth, offices are; and he had an office in a little library, a room in that building for a couple of years. Then they needed that space for something else and Ed died and that library sort of folded up and it was all packed up in boxes, sitting in the Metropolitan Community Church for twenty years… fifteen years, anyways. And I understand now that they finally made a library room in the church which is again available. I don’t know how much they’re advertising it or how much it’s being used, but I understand it is now there.7 46:02 MA: Absolutely. What do you think were PFLAG’s most valuable contributions to the community? 46:10 MB: Most valuable? 46:11 MA: …contributions to the community? 46:16 MB: I think the most valuable single thing is that we supported people who were then more comfortable coming out publicly as gay people. And I think that we could have never gotten the country to be as supportive as it is now and to pass positive legislature without a lot of gay folks coming out and saying “Here I am,” and “I’m okay,” and “I didn’t choose this, it chose me.” I think for people to understand, I think the best analogy is like being left-handed. It’s the way you’re born. Now you can be forced to learn to write with your right hand, as one of my brothers did, but it takes its toll emotionally, making that effort to do what’s so easy for other people and for people to understand that people don’t choose to be gay, they are born. One of the things we used to say if somebody was saying “Why did you choose to be gay?” we would said “Well, when and why did you choose to be straight?” And then they would begin to understand it’s just so natural, it’s just gotta be the way we are. So, I think it’s the personal one-to-one contact that makes the biggest difference. 47:49 MA: Absolutely. You mentioned PFLAG today has changed a little bit, could you tell us about that? And also, what is your involvement today with PFLAG? 48:03 MB: Is there what? 48:04 MA: What is your involvement today with PFLAG, if any? 48:08 MB: I’ve gone to speak to their chapter a couple of times, but I no longer have wanted to be active. It has been a very nice, comfortable support group and it is mostly gay and transgender 7 For more information on the history of the Ricketson GLBT Memorial Library, see http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/library/. 12 �folks themselves rather than family members. So the complexion of the group, I think, has been a little different than the original PFLAG emphasis as it’s in the title, Families and Friends of Gays. So, they’re a very, very nice group of people and they support each other very well. But I don’t notice… I haven’t heard that they do much outreach or community-wide education or that sort of thing. I think they’ve been content to focus on support whereas PFLAG was very strong on education and advocacy. 49:14 MA: Would you like to see more of that or do you think that’s more helpful or do you think the situation now… or why do you think that has changed? Should there be more advocacy as well and support? 49:30 MB: Well you know, I personally don’t want to be involved again. I have very low energy and physically getting around is a little more taxing. I don’t see as much need for it. I would like the City of Roanoke to adopt formally a transgender non-bias or non-discriminating ordinance. Bill Bestpitch, one of the council members, is a friend of ours and goes to our church. I have asked him a couple of time “Bill, when are you going to do this?” and he says “well, Mary, we have to have some transgender folks come and ask us to do it.” And, of course, that’s tricky because if you are not “out” as a trans person, you risk, you have to “out” yourself in order to do it and then you have no guarantee that the city is going to adopt it so it hasn’t happened. But I think it’s not as crucial as it used to be. 50:45 MA: Speaking a little bit more in general terms, in what direction do you see the LGBTQ community going? 50:59 MB: Hmm… I really don’t know. I think we are over the hump and I would have to ask them. It is more like the mopping up procedure, there will always be racial discrimination and I think we just have, certainly in the police force, we’ve been made to understand that is it still a very critical problem. And I think there may be some areas in which transgender people are feeling discriminated against but I am kind of out of touch to tell you. I have been content to lean back and let somebody else do it at this point. 51:47 MA: Do you think the hardest part is over? You know when you say “over the hump,” you think it’s definitely better now than it used to be during the years you were active? 51:57 MB: I think so. I think it is better in some parts of the country and in some cities like San Francisco and Provincetown and so forth. It is tougher in some other areas where there just has to be more trans folks coming out and doing things, breaking down some barriers. I see movements as kind of like a wedge, and the people who are way out in front here are generally seen as kooks and crazy people, they did things like chain themselves to the street barriers or whatever. But that 13 �was necessary to get awareness of the problem, or like… what was the first riot in New York City? 52:52 MA: Stonewall? 52:53 MB: Stonewall! It is what I am trying to think of, which is now a museum. But it was a violent reaction at that point. They were seen as really strange people at that point. Then behind them come others who say, “no, these are my friends, my sons and daughters” and behind them comes a wider yet group, and when this wedge gets wide enough then we can pass legislation and then we still have to work on individual people who are not quite with it yet. Legislation gets passed when probably three quarters of the public are in favor of it nationally, but there is still that twenty-five percent that you can only work on it individually. You can’t pass laws to change people’s mind and hearts. It is an individual thing. 53:57 MA: What do you think would you like to… I guess a big message you would like to give to the next generation of activists? You have been an activist your whole life, so what would be something from your experience [that] you would like them to know? 54:20 MB: See, I think that the battles have been won for GLBT people. I think the next issue has got to be environmental. I think that we have got to start saving the planet. And I am personally interested in the right to die. I wish you didn’t have to be within six months of death anyway. I wish people could die whenever they are ready. I guess I think it’s almost time to move on to some more pressing issues. In terms of our environmental problems, gay issues are not so pressing. 55:18 MA: Well, thank you. Is there anything you would like to add? Maybe anything I’ve missed? 55:22 MB: Well, I would like to say my husband and I… first of all, I couldn’t have done any of this without a very supportive husband. He is a wonderful person and he babysat [our] kids at all ages while I went running around the country, local meetings, country meetings, all over, you know. So he has been wonderful. It has opened up and broadened our lives and made life so much more fun, interesting, exciting. We are really indebted to our kid for opening up a lot of doors for us. But I think, also, at first I thought I was doing it for him; I was really doing it for me. I had a wonderful time, met a lot of wonderful people, got enough stuff printed and well known that it fed my ego very nicely [laughs]. I have met a lot of neat people in the process. One of the projects that national PFLAG did in conjunction with a conference in the D.C. area—we had our national conferences in different parts of the country—but when it was in D.C. the local chapter baked a bunch of apple pies and we all went in in groups of twos or threes and took an apple pie to every senator and said “gay is as American as apple pie” [laughs]. In the process we met John Warner, and Barney Frank, Virgil Goode, we talked to a couple times about gay issues. We were 14 �there the last time the full AIDS Quilt was assembled on the mall in Washington. We looked for a quilt for the one… Adrian had a close friend in high school who was also gay and Tom had no quilt so we came home and made a quilt for Tom. We talked to his family first and then worked on his quilt, so that was fun to do. I rode up in an elevator one time with Ellen DeGeneres’s mother and gave her one of my books [laughs]. She is a real sweet lady. Cher came to talk to one of our conferences, and I got to meet her and chat briefly. Oh, and one of the last big gay marches on Washington, this would have been fifteen years ago I guess, we got to speak from the platform [the Millennium March on Washington in 2000?]. But everybody had taken too long and we were very late in the day and people were leaving, but nevertheless we got to do our thing briefly up there on that platform. So we just had a lot of fun. It has just enriched our lives immeasurably. We are indebted to all these neat gay people. 58:46 MA: Do you think your son also grew throughout the process of learning more about his own identity, and how you as well as your husband learned about this process and how you both were very involved? 59:07 MB: He’s been grateful to us but he is not at all politically inclined. He says, “I am no longer transsexual. I am just a guy and I don’t want to talk about it. I don’t want to be outed. I just want to live my life.” So, he is now married to an Afro-American lady and I think “well, how much diversity can one kid bring to the family? Gay, trans, interracial!” [laughs] He is a great person, he’s just very talented. He works fulltime for IBM in their computer department. Without any training, he just picked it all up on his own. He plays flute in a symphony on the west coast. He grows almost all their own vegetables, he does all the family cooking. He is just very talented, loving, smart, energetic, about as neat as they come. 1:00:09 MA: Absolutely! 1:00:13 MB: The other two kids are pretty nice, too. Our older son is also a computer person and our daughter has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and leads a group at… it was IBM for years but then her group’s been sold off to another company. She is a neat lady. I met her in Amsterdam in April and we went on a cruise up the Rhine River together. That was fun [laughter]. 1:00:50 MA: Sounds wonderful. 1:00:52 MB: People say, “Oh, did you go alone Mary?” and I said, “no, I took my walker” [laugher] 1:01:00 MA: Well, thank you so much! I don’t want to miss anything because this is a wonderful story, a whole life of stories to tell, but I think we covered… 15 �1:01:16 MB: We covered a lot! We covered everything on my little list, I think. 1:01:23 MA: Again, thank you so much for sharing everything you’ve shared with us. We really appreciate it and I am sure the future will also appreciate it [laughs]. 1:01:34 MB: Well, I appreciate your time and effort on doing this project. You’ve both been very nice to meet and to work with and we thank you. 1:01:44 MA: Likewise! Absolutely! Thank you so much. 1:01:49 MB: Sure! [END] 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Mary Boenke Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Mariana Araujo Interviewee: Mary Boenke Date: 6 October 2016 Duration: 1:01:49 Transcription prepared by: Erin McWethy, Chelsea Hutton, and Mariana Araujo Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6 October 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mary Boenke, Erin McWethy, Chelsea Hutton, and Mariana Araujo Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BoenkeMary https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2960/Maberry_Barbara.MP3 eaa32a40c2ea105ce13804c471c948e7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2960/Maberry_Barbara.1.pdf 90fcead07484bfcaae30a4dec277f516 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Barbara Maberry October 5, 2016 Interviewer: Zacchariah Wooten (ZW) Interviewee: Barbara Maberry (BM) Date: October 5, 2016 Location: Roanoke College Library, Salem, Virginia Transcript prepared by: Amelia Woodworth and Joshua Bailey 0:00: checking sound levels 0:15: Introductions 0:55: Barbara’s parents and siblings 1:50: Barbara’s childhood in Roanoke (c. 1961 – 1970s); exploring femininity and gender 3:04: going off to college (early 1980s?); first lesbian relationship and sexual experiences 5:22: Family and friends react to Barbara’s coming out (early 1980s) 10:38: more on Barbara’s college days (early 1980s); visiting The Park in the late 1970s / early 1980s; drug use within the gay community 14:15: Homophobia and violence against gays, sometimes outside The Park (1980s) 17:18: Opening up a new gay nightclub, The Alternative (1990-1991); drug use at the club; straight folks at gay bars 21:16: the PRISM Foundation (2015 – present) 24:46: how Barbara’s parents came around to support her business venture and how they came to love drag shows (early 1990s?) 26:57: building up support for PRISM; relationship with politicians (2015 – present) 33:20: work with the Western Virginia AIDS Council (1990s); founding Sisters in the Name of Love (late 1980s); involvement in Metropolitan Community Church 36:25: getting married (2012); childbirth through artificial insemination(?) (2014); raising her son 47:11: Same-sex marriage, divorce, relationships, and parenting within the LGBTQ community 57:53: Final Remarks 0:00 [Checking sound levels – 11 seconds] 0:15 ZW: My name is Zacch Wooten and I am sitting here with Barbara Maberry at Roanoke College library on October 5, 2016 as part of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project, Oral History Initiative. Could you just start off by telling us your name and a little bit about yourself like where you grew up and such? �0:29 BM: My name is Barbara Maberry. I am 55 years old and proud of it. I was born and raised in Roanoke, lived outside of the area, lived in Arlington, Virginia; Orlando, Florida; and Charlotte, North Carolina. other than here in Roanoke, so… 0:55 ZW: What about your parents, what were they like? 0:58 BM: Oh, Mom and Dad, that’s Helen and Duke Maberry because his name was Clarence. But, he was raised in Salem, Virginia—Salem-born, Salem-bred kind of thing. Loved Roanoke College by the way. I grew up here a lot going to ball games and things and so… My mom was a singer. She sang in different local area groups. My dad was a fisherman and a football official and all those kind of things. I have one sister. She is 10 years older than I am so she is 65 and she’s married, has one child… or one son and two grandchildren. So... 1:50 ZW: Can you tell us a little about your childhood, what it was like growing up? 1:54 BM: Childhood, I was the ultimate diva. I grew up in dance lessons for twenty years. I’ve always been prissy and make-up and hair and usually nails and did beauty pageants and grew up on stage. Was also Daddy’s tomboy, went with him when he would go, the beginning of every fall, to look for deer tracks and bear tracks in the woods. I was a girl scout, you know all those kinds of things, so I enjoyed that part of it and fishing. We used to go fishing a whole lot, too. With Mom I was the one who came in. I was a latch-key child so I came in about 12 years old and started learning to cook dinner and washing clothes and taking care of the house because both parents worked. And very middle class. I guess that’s pretty much good for them. 3:04 ZW: When did you figure out for yourself about your sexuality? 3:08 BM: I went away to college at age 19 went to Shenandoah Conservatory of Music, now it’s Shenandoah University, and you know that was four hours away from home, thank you Jesus. You know every teenager’s dream is to be away from home and I got to go and I met these two women… two girls that were a couple of years older than me in school, and there was kind of a rumor going around that they were girlfriends, well that intrigued the heck out of me because I’d always lived the straight life until then, but always knew I didn’t want to really be around boys and really didn’t… was not a sexual thing. They were really good friends but that was about it. And [I] kept seeing one of the girls and she ended up being my girlfriend for seven years. It was my first relationship, yeah, and her name was Michelle and… That was my very first relationship. She happened to kiss me one night and the thoughts that went through my mind were “oh my god, what do you do? what do you do? what do you do? what do you do? Do you 2   �kiss her back? Do you not? Do you kiss her back?” and finally I kissed her and there began the journey of my life. 4:44 ZW: So, that’s obviously your first homosexual sexual experience. Did you have any sexual experiences before that, you know, heterosexual? 4:53 BM: Um, Yes I dated boys. Like I said they were, you know, better friends, and I thought I was in love a couple of times and realized that’s not really what it was. I just wanted to hang around with my girlfriends and go dancing. If we met somebody at the bars, danced and stuff, that was fine. It was not a big thing for me to date. I really never had long term male-female relationships. 5:22 ZW: What were the reactions of your parents and your peers when you came out, were they encouraging? 5:27 BM: Well, once I came out after a year of college and had all my stuff brought back and it was downstairs in the basement my mother went through my trunk and found my love letters to Michelle and evidently she and my father had a little tete-a-tete and talked about this, and I can remember sitting on my—we had a Florida room, and we were sitting there and my dad called me out there and decided that he was going to throw these letters at me and ask me what they were about. And he did, and I remember him calling me a lezzy, a dyke, a fag, a queer, every negative connotation that went around homosexuality. I was raised a good southern Baptist girl so that was one of those things you just didn’t really do. You know, you didn’t have any homosexual thoughts. They’d always thought I was going to be fabulous and straight and my mother used to always tell me to find a man with good insurance and I didn’t do that, so, yeah, it was bad. They sent me to… well they called my doctor that I had gone to my whole life, which totally embarrassed me. I mean Dr. Berthoff knew that I was gay, for god sakes. And they asked him about counseling and he said, “Well I’ll pick out a couple and will she want a male or female?” They asked me, and they sat there, and I was just devastated. My mother hardly said a word and really wouldn’t look at me during this whole talk. My father enjoyed sitting—I don’t know that he enjoyed it—but to me it felt like he was, you know, badgering me about this. So, I went to the counselor and I remember we were in this really long room and she had hugely long legs that just to me… and she wore a dress, and that’s all I remember. I don’t even know that I looked at her face and I was just like “gosh, her legs are so long!” kind of deal, just trying to take my mind off what was going on. And so we talked, I went to like three sessions with her and then she wanted to have a session with my mom, my dad, and my sister. Well, I was not real happy about that because like no matter how you look at it, that’s three against one. She kept saying, “Well, Barbara, this isn’t your issue, this is their issue. You seem comfortable with who you are and you don’t have any questions.” It’s your parents who are not comfortable with the situation and who you are, and I was like “okay, alright, we’ll do it.” So, the day that we had the appointment scheduled for all of us to meet, I got up that morning and packed my car and went back to Winchester to be with my girlfriend. I said, “I ain’t going through this at all, I’m going, and this is not going to happen. I’m not going to be backed in a corner,” and you know, it just 3   �wasn’t going to be it. They went ahead and had the meeting because I talked to my sister about it. She said, “Yes, we had the meeting and she told us that you knew who you were, you know, and it seemed to be mom and daddy’s problem.” My father said, “Well, she’s not welcome back in the house” and especially, typically in the early ‘80s, that’s a lot of what we heard. Anybody that came out, I don’t care whether you’re male or female. That’s what I went through with them, needless to say. Then, with my friends I didn’t really tell very many people here because they all still were… everything was so closeted then and so taboo that if you mentioned it you were… I’m sure all my girlfriends would have been like, “well, she slept in the bed with me, did she ever think about me?” One of my very best friends who I finally ended up telling a few years later said, “Why did you not tell me?” I said “well…” and explained that whole scenario and “I just wondered how you were going to react to it,” and she said, “Well did you ever have feelings for me?” I said “no, I really don’t think I did.” Then she said, “why not?” Then you know you’re like, “oh no, not the typical straight lady questions!” “Why didn’t you have feelings for me? What was wrong with me?” kind of deal. I finally did tell people and now, I think after I came out after Linda, [it] made it easier for me to come out to everybody else. By that point then I was proud and gay and lesbian and I wanted everybody to know at that point. 10:38 ZW: You talk about the ‘80s and I assume that you went to college during that time? 10:43 BM: Yes. 10:45 ZW: What was your college experience like besides from your girlfriends? 10:48 BM: Well, started at Western [Virginia Western Community College]. Did a year at Western, so 18 to 19 [years old] I was there, and 19 to 20 [years old] I went to Shenandoah. I loved college because I was a theatre major so I thought that was the grandest thing in the world. I was on stage yet again in my life and felt at home. There were more gay males up there that I was around. Then, when I would come home and even in high school… I neglected to mention this, my eighteenth year I used to go to First Baptist Church downtown and I would leave church on Sunday night and go down to The Park and dance and watch the drag show, because I thought the drag shows were the best thing ever, ever, ever, and I felt right at home there. I had a lot of lesbian girlfriends who were like “well, what kind of woman do you like?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t like women.” This was before Michelle, so that’s not going to happen. I just like to come down here and dance. I know I was gay-curious, I know I was. I was already at home with homosexuals, but mostly males, so this female thing was almost like a challenge in order to get her to kiss me in the first place because if she didn’t know I was pure puppy dog to her. I just looked to her like, “oh, you’ve got the most beautiful voice, and you’re so pretty,” and I know she was just like “gosh, you are all like up in my stuff, back off some,” but she kissed me. The ‘80s were an interesting time for everybody because that’s when at the bars and things, that’s when drugs came in. Cocaine was really big and poppers. Everybody did poppers. It’s called ‘VHS head cleaner.’ It was a little bottle about this big and you would put your finger over it and you would, amyl nitrate is what it was, amyl nitrate. And you would sniff this into your lungs 4   �and it was like euphoric. You had this really euphoric feeling and you felt the music and you danced. I mean everybody, and they would pass it around on the floor from one person to the next to the next and the next. It didn’t matter who handed it to you, you just did it. So, I do remember that was part of that whole phase of my life… It was so freeing and then the name amyl nitrate definitely made it more freeing. Then I realized after a while that was probably turning my brain to plastic and was probably doing damage to my septum so I stopped doing that. I’m pretty good about, you know, I may try something but then, “no, I don’t like it.” I have never been habitual with stuff. In that time, especially in Roanoke, that was a big part of Roanoke and a big part of the bar life. So... 14:15 ZW: The ‘80s were an important time in terms of the fight for gay rights, were you a part of that movement, or is there anything you can say about that? 14:23 BM: Yeah, yeah I was. When I came home I got involved with Pride.1 Like I said that’s when I became the proudest lesbian in Roanoke, especially when I came back told all those lesbian friends of mine that I used to say “no, no, no,” “guess what? I got a girlfriend.” They’re like, “we could have told you that!” I guess they had gaydar at that time and thought I was a big lesbian. I think the saddest part of that time period was, like I said, the reaction that parents treated their children. It was so easy to turn your back on your child. [It’s] heartbreaking now for me to look back at it to think that my father would even say those things to me and that my mother who was, to me, my whole life, was the right hand of God, would not even defend me. So, I knew this was going on with other people because I wasn’t the only in the world going through it, and then I would hear… we had so many suicides. I know suicide is, especially amongst the GLBTQA population, it’s so prevalent now, but then it was as well. And not only that, but gay bashings before “gay bashing” was given a term, it was hugely part of a way of life. I mean you had to… there were people who got shot outside the bar. My ex-girlfriend stood there and got shot with BB guns. They were all standing in line. There was a time when you had to stand in line outside The Park to get in. I mean, it would take 20-30 minutes to get in because there were so many people in line to get in that bar. It was really obviously dangerous. Once I heard that Darlene had gotten shot with a bb gun... Then one night following church, my preacher’s son and the assistant preacher’s son came down and stood outside The Park, and I think that was because they had heard I was down there, and I was such a big part of the youth group, that they wanted to see if I was down there. And they stood out front and called everybody fags, and dykes, and queers, and “you’re going to hell.” All of that type situation and so you’re even getting that from your peers, let alone an older generation. It was a very scary time in the ‘80s because it was on that edge of the sword where more people were coming out but you were scared to come out because of how society perceived you. 17:18                                                                                                                         1 Roanoke’s Pride in the Park festival was first organized in 1989. The organization Roanoke Pride, Inc. emerged out of those festivals circa 1997. 5   �ZW: So, speaking of gay bars, there’s a rumor that you once were running a gay bar? 17:25 BM: Yes! I went into that aspect of it. It was called The Alternative. I don’t know if I lucked into it, because it was a $10,000 a month rent, but everything was in there. You walked in, the lights were there, the music system was there, the kitchen was there, the dishes were there, the forks were there, the papers were there, the pens were there, and everything was there. We just had to walk in and kind of take what used to be a country line dancing bar that was on the country channel. It was CMT [Country Music Television], carried Roanoke, Virginia, and it was called Valley Country and I mean it is a huge warehouse. The Park, the whole upstairs of the Park was the size of my dance floor so that tells you… I mean, even back to the dressing rooms. The whole size of the upstairs of The Park was my dance floor. I had a person that was involved at the time as my show director who was into drug activity, goes back to the cocaine aspect then. I had to make a decision one night when I watched people go in there and all my staff was looking at me like, “what are you going to do?” I had already been to the owner of the building and said “Will you help me?” And he didn’t help me, so I closed the doors and went home. That’s all I could do. It was either that or somebody is going to come in and I was going to get busted. The cops were going to come, ABC [Alcoholic Beverages Control board], something. I was not going down. This was not Barbara’s life, this was his life, And so I had to make a decision about that. Owning a bar was fabulous, especially during the ‘80s, well early ‘90s, it was fabulous. It was ‘90-‘91 is when I had it. 19:30 ZW: While it was open, was it a secretive, underground gay bar? 19:36 BM: No [it wasn’t], because by then we were into the ‘90s and things had changed in Roanoke. Pride was more visible, more straight couples were coming to the bar, to The Park, as well as my bar. It had become the cool thing to do, to hang around with the gays. They had the fun, like they did the drag shows, they had the best dance music, and we were always getting new DJs in to make sure we kept the music fresh. So, it wasn’t as closeted as it was in the ‘80s. Just in one decade shows you how it went from completely secretive to “Hey! Bring your friends, let’s have a bridal party down there.” They would bring all the brides and the bride would come and all her people. The groom would come and all his people and it was a bit of a, what’s the word I want to use… oddity. And they enjoyed coming down there and being able to say, “oh yeah, I go to The Park,” or “I go to The Alternative and dance.” I think things became more accepting in the ‘90s right there especially at the crossover from the ‘80s to the ‘90s. 21:16 ZW: So, you’re the Vice Chair of the PRISM Foundation that’s based in Roanoke. Can you tell me a little bit about the organization and what they have accomplished in the area? 21:24 6   �BM: We have only been in existence for… I don’t even think it’s been quite a year yet. What we are doing is we were established from Roanoke Pride to work with the greater Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia youth who have been displaced, or homeless, kids who want to become more involved in the gay community, but not in the teenage base. Not specifically like going to the bar or that kind of thing. But trying to be a role model to kids who need that, or sometimes we turn out to be maternal or paternal figures to a lot of the kids because you know they were kicked out of their home. It’s a sad thing. I just talked about this whole lineage, and in a two decade time period we went from the same thing to what we’re going through again. Parents have not moved forward that much. The greater part of society does [accept LGBTQ people], but I think it has to be the biggest shock for your parents to know. “Oh, you’re a what? Oh, you’re a lesbian, or a gay man, or you’re transgender, or bisexual.” I think it’s just such a “flip out” for parents, and that’s what we’re trying to do is establish a situation where it’s a safe haven where we can do job training. We work with TAP [Total Action for Progress] and we work with what used to be Trust House but now it’s under a different acronym2 and I can’t remember what it’s called now. Trust House will help with placing for housing and TAP works with job training so we have now established a collaborative effort and we just had a meet and greet for all of the non-profit organizations where they came in and they got to hear what we are here for. “Here’s what we can offer you. You in turn help us by directing your GLBT youth to come this way, to come over to us, and that we can help them.” Then, in turn, we are going to tell you how you can help us. We need you to be supportive, volunteer work, aspects about doing workshops, and there is so much there. We also just established two scholarships. One is the Pride Leadership Scholarship and one is the Helen Maberry Scholarship, which is what we call “Ms. Helen’s helping hands,” because my mother during my adult years became the mother to all the gays. 24:46 BM: I mean, I had boys come in the house. I dressed them in drag and they went out as girls and my mother would have to have them come in, “Oh, let me see what you’re wearing.” She did sewing for them, “here, let me tac that for you,” put on a zipper or whatever, and then she saw girls come in and they all left as boys. My mom became from that woman who sat across the room from me originally and wouldn’t even look me in the eye and was so heart-broken that her daughter was a lesbian, now was one of my biggest supporters. My dad, as well, when I had the bar, he had had strokes and by that point some of his… masculinity… he wasn’t on guard all the time, and this was an embarrassment to him. He would hold dollar bills up and shake them to all the drag queens and he loved all the drag queens. He had so much fun. It’s amazing that my parents who were in their 50s, well, let’s see…. I was 20, my mom was in her 40s. No, she was in her 50s, so 50s and 60s, and 70s even, being my biggest supporters. My mom and dad backed me on the bar and so it’s just nice to see, if I can give this kind of guidance to the parents working with PRISM or even just talking to people like PFLAG [Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] where we can go and do workshops with them or through the church, you know, whoever wants us to come in, we can become a positive role model. I think my mother, funny, and my dad, who were my worst nightmare at first became my biggest supporters. That’s what I want to do. that’s what I want to be to kids, and that’s why I got involved with PRISM. 26:57                                                                                                                         2 Trust House is now part of ARCH, which stands for Advocate, Rebuild, Change, Heal. 7   �BM: We will be giving out the two scholarships this fall, should be soon, because most people probably use it for next semester. The really cool thing is that there are so many possibilities of what we can do. I’ve talked to… there’s a new personal safety group that just opened up here in Salem, as a matter of fact. I saw they had just opened and I thought, “okay, here you go, I’m a marketer.” I don’t care whether I was a hairstylist or whatever I did in my life. I think marketing. That’s the way I look at it. So I thought “okay,” so I called this person up, “would you ever be interested in working with the GLBT youth?” and he said “well, sure” and I said, “here’s what we can do. I’ll get you advertisement, free advertisement. I’ll get television coverage, and I’ll get newspaper coverage, if you will do a program for these kids” and he said, “We’ll do it,” and I said, “You give me six months to right at a year and I promise you I will get the kids if you will do the program” and he said “uh, sure, because we can use all the advertisement we can get.” So, I mean, there are so many different programs that we can offer to kids. There are so many different things that our community as a whole can give back, and to me that’s part of it. I want to teach these kids if you want something you better be darn well ready to give back, and at the same time you’re getting, because I think that’s probably one of the most important lessons I learned. You know, don’t ask for something unless you’re willing to do something for it. Nothing comes free in this world, but in the same respect you should want to do something for somebody else because they did something for you. PRISM is going to be a great foundation for making some changes in that aspect. We just had one of our people on our board… He’s a young man. He’s just decided that he’s going to go to Richmond and start a new life, so now were going to be looking for a couple more people to put on the PRISM board. Right now we’re looking at filling these positions so we can get things going. We are also going to become a nonprofit status, so we’ll eventually not be an entity of Roanoke Pride. We would be a separate entity and the lady that works for TAP, Jen Nelson [Jo Nelson], is also one of the vice chairs. She will help with job training and she is a very vital part of this because she is also a social worker. So, maybe taking the kids to look at higher education. Because I think that is a major thing these kids, they think, “I don’t have any family. How am I going to go to college?” and I think that’s part of what we are going to be there for, too. That’s why we established the scholarships. That was my first thing. I want a scholarship. I’d like to please name it after my mom. For the simple fact that she had an open door policy and I’ve had more gay people live at my house than you could shake a stick at. I really have. One time I had like four of my gay male friends living in the basement in our den because they didn’t have anywhere to go. My mom was like “well, now I’m gonna fix dinner and you all just go on downstairs and Barbara get them some sheets and blankets and stuff.” I mean she couldn’t see anybody ever be in a [bad] situation. So, that’s just where my foundation comes from, with wanting to be involved with PRISM and not just with Pride because I still work with Pride, too. I mean I still do. I’m involved with doing the events and the festival and I’ve been on television and [laughs] I’ve been interviewed forty thousand times, you know. They know me. A lot of Roanoke knows me. And a lot of the politicians know me because I make sure I go up. It’s part of my marketing. “How are you doing? My name is Barbara Maberry, how are you doing? I’d like to know how you’re going to be working with the LGBT community.” And they’re like “whoa…” Like Sam Rasoul, I love him, and he’s been a big supporter of our community and we are very lucky to have him. That’s how I got him. I just flat out asked him. “What are you going to do for me? What are you going to do for our community?” And he’s been so helpful. And he told me “well, you put me on the spot. What am I supposed to do? I have to answer to your questions. You’re a constituent.” And I said “that’s right!” That’s part of why PRISM… I mean, we can’t be 8   �politically motivated once you become a nonprofit. However, before that time period, I’m going to grab everybody I can. John Edwards, he’s been very vital for us. The local mayor [Sherman Lea] has not been so forthcoming and I can understand that he’s new and he doesn’t want to, you know... And he’s very church-based and he doesn’t want to really, I guess, come out too much as an advocate for the LGBT community. But we’re going to get him, too… watch. [laughs] 33:20 ZW: So, other than PRISM is there any other organizations that you’ve been involved with around Roanoke? 33:26 BM: Yes, sorry [phone rings]. I worked with, now it’s the Drop-In Center, I worked for the Western Virginia AIDS Council, is what it was called originally. I think things changed in the early 20s [2000s?] and they established like a new foundation for their organization. [Apologizes again for phone making sounds]. They did health education. I went to prisons, I went to high schools, I went to colleges. Talked to churches and it was always about sex, condoms, safer sex, STDs. I was the original condom lady. I would go around the bars and do outreach and handout safer sex packets and that’s how they knew me. “Here comes the condom lady!” So I worked with them. That was in the ‘90s, as well; and then in the mid to late ‘80s I was the executive director for one of the AIDS service... We established an AIDS service organization. At the time Ryan White and the Western Virginia AIDS Council was the only thing that anybody who was HIV-positive could tap or could utilize as an organization. We were called “Sisters in the Name of Love” because a bunch of drag queens started it because they knew if they could do fundraising then we could provide funds for people who needed it. Food, clothing, housing stipends, whatever it was. Then we were active for about five years, became a nonprofit organization. Then right in the beginning of the ‘90s is when Ryan White got more funding and they really didn’t need our organization anymore. They had the infectious disease clinic at Carillion so things changed with that aspect of it. I used to be the choir director for the Metropolitan Community Church for three years. [Phone buzzes again; apologizes again.] I think that’s as far as the organizations here in Roanoke. I believe that’s about it on those. 36:25 ZW: You’re married. 36:27 BM: I am! 36:28: ZW: Can you tell us a little bit about your partner, and you have a child? Could you tell us about him? 36:36: 9   �BM: Terri is my wife. We met 16 years ago and she’s 16 and a half years younger than I am, and we were together twelve years, and it was right after the first wave of the legalization of gay marriage came out. [Washington] D.C. was a location. Virginia hadn’t even and weren’t going to recognize what the United States was trying to do for the rest of the states, so Terri and I went to D.C. We figured, “well, here comes 12/12/12. Maybe we ought to get married since we’ve been together for 12 years.” We got married in D.C. A wonderful guy who married us: Wes Jamison. He’s a minister for a church in Maryland. We were his first official gay couple that he married, that was legal, after the law became legal. We take great pride in that. Then, in 2014, my mother’s… I lost my dad in ‘96 so Terri and I still lived with my mom so I could take care of her because she was in failing health throughout those years… In about 2014 she had first [a] stroke and some major health issues and Alzheimer’s was becoming very prevalent so that was another reason why we stayed with her. She was in the hospital and Terri and I were talking about having a baby because we went to the doctor and the doctor said “you’re aging out there Terri if you don’t start doing something soon.” They kind of looked at me and I said “uh, I had a hysterectomy at 38. That’s not going to be a part of it. This one can’t do that.” They talked to Terri and explained what the risks were, what we could do while she was 36 [years old]. My mom was in the hospital and we already kind of discussed all this and it probably wasn’t the opportune time to be having a baby while my mom was at this point in her life but I talked to a friend of mine and he’s a gay man and we were talking about looking for a donor. I, of course, being the researcher that I am, I went out and I was researching every aspect of how we were going to do this without going to a sperm bank and spending hugely big bucks on going to a fertility doctor. So I found what we were going to have to do, and I happened to talk to my friend Dewey and I said “you never thought about becoming a dad, did you?” And he said “what?” and so I explained what we wanted. “We don’t want any financial obligations; we are not wanting to share custody. We just need your sperm.” He started laughing and he said “Barbara, I’d do anything to make you happy.” I thought, “God, that sentence will last in my mind the rest of my life.” That one statement. Then, it became kind of a joke because then we were like “ok, now we were going to go through ovulation testing and we had to do all that kind of thing.” They said “when your LH surge is up, that’s when its best to do it.” And so, the morning of, there was the LH surge up and I was like, “Dewey, Dewey, we got to do this today. Now what are we going to do?” Now I’m flipping out. I lost my cool at that point because now I’m going, “it’s got to happen right this minute,” you know? And how are we going to do this? Do we come to your house or you come to our house or whatever? And needless to say, he brought his deposit over to my home and he said “okay, well I’m going to see y’all later. You be good and good luck and here we go!” We tried October; funny, this is our anniversary month for that. We tried once on the 13th and again on the 15th and got pregnant, we believe, the very first time. Which was a whole funny thing because my wife watched… well, I inseminated her at home, and she watched the Redskin football game on television! I said “flip your legs over your head and here we go” and she said “can I watch the game?” and I said, “I don’t care if you watch CNN, you do what you want to watch, just keep your legs over your head” because that’s what I’d heard, that was a sure fire way of making sure everything went the right direction. We found out afterwards that it doesn’t matter whether you put your legs over your head or not, sperm swims upstream! But we got pregnant. 10   �42:27 BM: And one morning she was taking me down to the hospital to be with my mom and it was before we knew and I said, “god, I have the funniest feeling today. I just feel like my stomach is in knots and it’s shaking” and she said, “are you worried about your mom?” I said, “no, I don’t think so” and she said, “okay” and dropped me off at the hospital and went home. Evidently, something went through her mind and she goes, “I’m going to go get a pregnancy test.” So she goes to the Dollar Tree… [laughs]… which they work, they work 100%. She goes to the Dollar Tree right below Fleming High School and goes down to Hardee’s and she’s in the stall and she comes out and there’s this little girl beside her. She walks out and she has a pregnancy test in her hand, too. And Terri was like “oh my god, everybody goes to Hardee’s to see if they’re pregnant!” You know, that was the joke. It goes along with the rest of my life. She goes over, “well, can you tell me what this means?” The girl said, “well, let’s see honey, mine has one line which means no, and yours has two lines, which means yes!” Terri was like, “huh?” She doesn’t know what to say. So she comes into the hospital and she’s got this weird look on her face. I’m sitting beside Momma and she walks over and she goes “Here.” She flips it over in front of me and I was like “what the hell is that?” and she said, “We’re pregnant.” You know, you’re expecting it, you’re hoping for it. And we never thought we’d get pregnant immediately. We thought it would be like a year or something that we would be trying. I said, “what do you mean, we’re pregnant?” She said, “we’re pregnant!” Then the very next thing, somebody comes in, well, I can’t even tell them. So, the whole time the girl is like “what is wrong with y’all?” “Nothing, why?” “Nothing.” So, we left the hospital and went up to Towers, to the Dollar Tree again. I said, “we’re getting two more tests. I want to make sure this isn’t a false positive. I just want to make sure.” We go next door to McAlister’s and we both, she does two tests, and they both came up positive. The funny thing about that is my son’s middle name is McAlister, but it wasn’t because of the restaurant. It is because his godfather’s last name is McAllister so it’s just one of those other weirdo things in my life. Every time we go to McAlister’s to eat we’re like looking at the bathroom because that’s the place. Then, Cambridge was born six weeks, almost seven weeks early…. So, he was supposed to be, due date was July the 9th, and he was born June the 10th so a premie [premature baby]. Seven pounds, nine-ounce premie. Yeah, he’s huge, he is huge. He’s two years, three months, and he is like this tall [motions height]. He wears 4T clothing and a size 10 shoe. They’re saying he’s going to be between 6’ 7” and 6’ 9”, yeah, yeah. I’ll be happy at 6’ 5”, maybe 6’ 4” even. So every time I see someone that’s like ultra tall, I walk over to him and I’m like “sir, how tall are you?” They’ll like “Well, I’m 6’ 7”. I’m like “okay,” and immediately I say, “well, what size shoe do you wear?” They’re looking at me like “what? You’re a really nosy lady.” I say, “my son’s supposed to be your height and I’m just trying to figure out what size shoe he’s going to wear when he gets to be your height.” I have no filter, as you can tell, and I just ask people whatever I think. My son’s going to be a very tall young man. His name is Cambridge McAlister Maberry Craig. He has this long name that we know when he goes to do Scan-Tron sheets in first grade and everybody else is like, “Liam,” and they go “L-IA-M,” he’s going to be on ‘A’ in “Cambridge” when the rest of the kids are over here are already on number 10 so he’s going to hate us. He’s going to hate us [laughs]. 11   �47:11 ZW: So, the perception of gay marriage in society is seen as the peak of the LGBTQ community. Do you also feel that way or do you plan to play a role in the movement going forward to, you know, push it beyond just the legalization of marriage for all? 47:31 BM: Well, yes and I think some of my concerns are…and I’m an ordained minister too by the way, not that you wouldn’t know that by my vocabulary, but I did that so I can marry people in the LGBTQ community because there were so many religions that weren’t acknowledging [it]. As opposed to somebody having to go to the Justice of the Peace and getting married, which I think is really impersonal and it takes a part of my right away. Why should I not be able to have a minister do my wedding if he can do your straight wedding? So, that was one of the main reasons I went and became ordained and I think that with that I want to see more… I worry about adoption. I worry about divorce. I love, and this might sound a little prejudiced, but I love my gay family, I do, I love all the different people within my community. But I think because gay marriage became legal, everybody did it. Now they’re all going to do it and not think about what the consequences there are after you do it and divorce. I had two couples I know right now, one’s been married less than two months and they’re already getting a divorce, and the other one’s been married for four months and they’re getting a divorce. It was… it had been a lesbian couple, and one of the people within the couple is now transgendering to male [transitioning FTM]. The other couple was two gay males, and the transgender male and one of the males from the other couple are now getting together. So, these marriages have dissolved and that’s… that’s my concern, that’s my concern. I think it became so much of a status symbol for our community that people are not thinking beyond the end of their nose. They can’t see anything past here [pointing to her nose] and they’re not looking at “Do I really love you? or are we just in love today? and I love you and will you marry me? Oh nobody’s every asked me to marry them before!” Then you go get married and then a month down the road, “I don’t love you anymore.” I just don’t understand that and I guess because Terri and I had been together for 16 years so we kind of knew we were going to be together forever anyway so we might as well get married because we knew that we wanted to have a child. I wanted to make everything legal. I just think that for my son, or my child, whoever it had been at the time. But I’m looking at what… it was a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for all of us. It is. But it has to be taken seriously and I think, especially for gay males, you will date this week and then next week you find somebody else, the week after that I find somebody else. You know, their relationships are very short termed, as a whole, as a whole. Lesbians? “I met you today we’re going to have dinner tonight and tomorrow I’ve got the U-Haul and I’m bringing all of my stuff to your house because we’re going to live together the rest of our lives.” Which, as you can see from that wedding, that’s not true either because they don’t last forever either. And it’s sad. Not that heterosexual relationships last any longer, but right now because it is still a phenomena, everybody wants to get married and people are not looking at what the possibilities could be in a year, five years. There’s no plan. There’s no five-year plan, there’s no ten-year plan. It’s till you decide you don’t want to be married to me 12   �anymore. Wait till they start going through all of these divorces. That’s why I said, when gay marriage, before it became legalized, that’s the first thing I said to like all the lawyers that I knew, all my friends who are the politicians, I said, and I’m one of these people, but don’t these people, don’t the heterosexual people in courts and representing us in [the] senate and all these aspects… Don’t they realize how much money this is going to make them because gay marriage is like that [snaps fingers] honey. They’ll be getting divorced, this one will have six marriages in a 10 year span so look how much money y’all are going to make in the court systems and for the state, and paying taxes. That was the one thing about Virginia that really broke my heart. I couldn’t get married in the place that I was born. I could not even get married in my own state because they didn’t even acknowledge that I was even a human, I mean let alone that I was a lesbian. Because they didn’t recognize gay life at all. We are the “commonwealth,” and I don’t care which commonwealth you’re talking about around the United States. They’re all the same. They’re [Virginia’s government is] a little more backwards than some of the other, more progressive states, and you know. “Why would you not want my tax money?” That was my thought process. “Why can’t I get married here? What is the problem? Why do you care? I don’t care who you married so everybody else can get married all they want. Why do you not want my money? Why do you not want my taxes as a joint wedding, as a joint marriage? Why do you not want my personal property taxes?” all those things because eventually people are going to…I really didn’t think we were ever going to see Virginia legalize marriage in my lifetime to be perfectly honest. I thought, you know, Terri and I are going to have to move because I’m not going to live in a state that doesn’t recognize me as a human. So, thank God, within a two-year period all that changed and then we received legalized marriage around the country. But there’s so much that needs to be done. There’s so much education within my community. Don’t just go get married because you can, you know? You want to do something? Buy a dog. Get a house. Do something like that. Don’t get married just to get married because you can. I think that’s my biggest factor. I see too many people divorcing already or breaking up, or whatever they want to call it. I think these two couples can still be annulled if I’m not mistaken because it’s been such a short term. The one’s that I mentioned, and that’s sad to me. It’s just sad that you took the time to think that you were going to get married. You took these vows. One of the couples I married and it just, it breaks my heart because when I talk to them “oh yes, we’re great. This is what we want. We’ve been waiting this long. We’ve been dating this long. Da da da da.” And two months, two months it was gone, dissolved. I don’t know if that says something about me as an officiate or if it says something about our community in general because its still too easy. It’s just easy. I think people should have to go through counseling before you get married. I don’t care if it’s a religious counseling or not. I just think that you should have to go through a little bit of connecting counseling so we can see that you know this is the right thing for us or no it’s not the right thing for us. I want to see so much more change with it. I want to see that… alright, perfect example: I am married to my wife. Our son shares my last name, but my fear is if something happened to us, something happened to her, say she died, what does that do for me? Because she had him and I’m not on a birth certificate and I’m not a legal parent. So what’s that going to do for me? So now my next aspect of what marriage means is that if you’re married and you have a child together, after you’re married, then you’re both parents. It doesn’t matter. I should be a parent on his birth certificate and I’m still not. That’s really sad. That’s why adoption… I’m 13   �thinking, “I have to adopt my own child.” I made him. I made him. But he’s really not mine. That’s scary. Too many couples are going through the same problems and that’s the next aspect of where just because we have gay marriage we still have to have all the same aspects of what that means from straight marriage to gay marriage. I worry about the state of Virginia recognizing that. I don’t know about nationally, but, as far as my wonderful commonwealth, yeah I do worry about that if something happened. 57:53 ZW: Well that’s all the questions we have. Thank you for sharing with us. 57:59 BM: Bless your hearts. I probably bing bonged around like a… what’s that game? Not ping pong but when pull the thing down and the ball goes up like ding ding ding that’s what I felt like I did. So I apologize. 58:12 ZW: No, it was great. Thank you for sharing. 58:18 BM: I mean anything, any aspect of what I can do to help my community. That’s what I am supposed to be here to do. I am trying to make a better community for my child and for everybody else’s children and for the youth of tomorrow. That’s why I am involved in PRISM and you know, if we all don’t work together, nobody prospers. Nobody. I don’t care whether you’re heterosexual or whether you’re a member of the LGBT and Q. It just, we all gotta work for that. I’m not going to stop working and you’re going to see me at Pride or anywhere else or any of Dr. Rosenthal’s things. 58:57 ZW: Well, thank you Barbara. 58:59 BM: Thank you all. [END] 14   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Barbara Maberry Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Zacch Wooten Interviewee: Barbara Maberry Date: 5 October 2016 Duration: 58:59 Transcription prepared by: Amelia Woodworth and Joshua Bailey Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5 October 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Barbara Maberry, Zacchariah Wooten, Amelia Woodworth and Joshua Bailey Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MaberryBarbara https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2961/Shifflett_Peggy.MP3 262461aaaddeb5084ed9f639f4aed3db https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2961/Shifflett_Peggy.1.pdf 1ccf2c298eef5888172a2fa8b417265d PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Peggy Shifflett October 14, 2016 Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Peggy Shifflett Date: October 14, 2016 Location: Roanoke College History Department Building, Salem, VA Transcription prepared by Julia Greider Total 56:15 00:48 = childhood in Hopkins Gap, Virginia (1940s – 1950s) 02:10 = working at JMU (early 1960s) and attending school at (1967-1970) at JMU; discovering Beebo Brinker books; first lesbian experiences (1960s) 09:44 = teaching at JMU (early 1970s), living in Harrisonburg; moving to Texas and experiencing the gay scene there (late 1970s) 13:01 = gender presentation 14:00 = Ph.D. work in sociology (1975-1980); interest in history and women’s studies 17:06 = teaching at Virginia Tech (early 1980s); encountering sexism and discrimination 19:14 = moving to Salem, Virginia (1980) and finding the gay scene there 20:05 = a women’s softball league in Salem 23:16 = lesbian hangouts in Salem and Roanoke 25:04 = getting involved with the lesbian group First Friday (1982) 27:10 = the culture of First Friday (1980s); including problems with alcoholism 32:16 = owning a frame shop in Grandin Village (1980s-2000s) 33:38 = being denied tenure at Virginia Tech (mid-1980s) 36:56 = the culture of First Friday; the Roanoke Valley Women’s Retreat (1980s) 40:13 = lesbian attitudes towards gay men 41:56 = attitudes towards gay people in Hopkins Gap and within her family 46:07 = starting a lesbian group focused on education (c. 1989-1991) 51:01 = the evolution of the LGBT movement 00:00 [checking sound levels] 00:16 GR: So my name is Gregory Rosenthal, and I’m here with Peggy Shifflett, and it’s October 14th, 2016, about 1 PM, and we’re at the old Farmers Bank building on Main Street in Salem, which is now the Roanoke College History Department building. And we’re doing an interview for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project oral history   1   �initiative. So Peggy, I thought we would start and maybe you could tell us about where you grew up, where you were born, that sort of thing. 00:48 PS: Okay. Well I was born in Harrisonburg, Virginia, but lived in a place called Hopkins Gap, which is in the Allegheny Mountains, very isolated, probably a generation behind even the Harrisonburg community. I am the oldest of five children, and my dad worked in a feed mill. My mother was a housekeeper. We were fairly poor, but we survived on things that we grew in the garden, and hunting, and that kind of thing; we survived. I went to school at Mount Clinton Elementary School, started in 1947, and then was at that school until I was a sophomore in high school, and then they consolidated three schools into Turner-Ashby High School, and that’s where I graduated in 1959. 1:56 GR: Okay, so the 1940s and ’50s is when you were growing up, your early childhood. What was your high school like, for example, in the 1950s? 2:10 PS: In the 1950s? I was sort of a loner because I knew by that time that I was surely attracted to women, and I had no idea what it meant, but I knew that I didn’t want to share it with people. That I would be in deep trouble if I did. When I graduated high school, I can’t emphasize how alone I was in the world. I remember going home and standing on the front porch and longing to be somewhere else where I could be different. I graduated high school and got a job immediately at what was then Madison College1 as a secretary, and I used to go downtown in Harrisonburg for lunch, and I picked up a couple of lesbian Beebo Brinker2 books [laughs]. You know Beebo? And I started reading these love stories and I thought – cause those weren’t very good love stories. I mean they were pretty rough on each other, the relationships. So I stayed in the closet because I thought “I don’t want to live like this.” But anyway, it was those books that made me realize who I was, really. Then I started looking up the term “lesbian” in the dictionary, and it’s a woman who likes women. So I started to come out, but all by myself, there was no one in Harrisonburg that I knew that I could relate to. So from there I became a teacher in an elementary school, and then I got a call from my boss previously, when I was working as a secretary, got a call from him – well meantime, I quit the secretary job and got a degree at JMU [James Madison University]. And I met a woman while I was in an English class, and it was just like, click. We had not really a sexual thing, but just a making-out kind of relationship, and I remember when she moved away I was devastated. And so I was walking down the street in Harrisonburg and my doctor’s office door was there, and I just walked into the doctor’s office and said, “Look, I think I’m queer.” And he said, “Oh, you’re not,” and he asked me about my sex                                                                                                                 1 2   Now known as James Madison University (JMU). A lesbian pulp fiction series by Ann Bannon. 2   �life, and I’ve been with men, and I said, “Well yeah, I tried that.” And “Where did you try it?” and all this stuff and then he said, “You ought to go get you a nice hotel room sometime with a man, and it’ll work out better for you.” Well I thought that was bad advice, so I just went out and grieved until I got over her. And then there was another time when I opened the front door at our home, and there was this girl, and suddenly it was like the two of us were just clicking. So we had a short-term thing. When did I really – I guess it was in English class – now I backed up there, and I’m coming ahead now. The woman I met in English class had eyes like Elizabeth Taylor. [laughs softly] Lavender, you know. And we had a short thing, and then she moved away and got married, and again I was devastated. And so, after that, I came out at my job, cause the man that called me while I was teaching elementary school wanted me to come to JMU. He was going on sabbatical and wanted me to teach a year there. So I did. I took that on, and I was teaching with another woman. We were joint teaching a class. And I came out to her. And she was like, “Whoa,” you know. “My sister’s gay.” 6:49 GR: So let me stop you here just to get the chronology right. You were in college at JMU. Do you remember when you graduated? 6:59 PS: Sixty-nine [1969]. 7:00 GR: Okay, so late sixties? And it was then at JMU when you had these first relationships? 7:08 PS: Mm-hmm. 7:10 GR: So from ’59 when you graduated high school to – when did you enter JMU? 7:17 PS: I was a secretary there for seven years and entered in about 1967 as a student, and took 21 hours a semester because I wanted out. So I graduated ’69, and I went to teach elementary school in Louisa County. 7:36 GR: That story when you walked by your doctor’s, or you went into the doctor’s office and you said, “I’m queer,” did you use that term? 7:44 PS: Yes. That’s all I knew.   3   �7:50 GR: And from the fiction that you were reading, that’s where you encountered the term “lesbian”? 7:59 PS: Yes, the term lesbian in those books. Which was about the same time I went to the doctor’s office. But I didn’t know what he thought. I just used the word “queer.” Yeah, that’s where I learned the term “lesbian.” Then I started looking it up and doing research, as much as you could in those days, on what lesbians were, some famous lesbians, and the Isle of Lesbos. I thought, man, I’ve got to go there someday [laughs]. 8:36 GR: I do want to ask you about that later in the interview, about your interest in history and how that tied in, but we can get there as you move through the story. 8:44 PS: Okay. 8:45 GR: What did you major in at JMU? 8:47 PS: Undergraduate, social sciences, where you took eighteen hours in the social sciences, so I got a concentration in sociology, so my degree was in social sciences. And then I immediately took a master’s degree and finished that in a year while I was teaching, and that was a concentration in education and sociology. 9:11 GR: Did you know students at JMU who were “out”? How did you meet other queer women there? Was it just happenstance? 9:27 PS: Just happenstance. There was no way, no place, no one that I knew of who was gay. No organizations. 9:38 GR: So after you graduated – well you graduated, you did a master’s, and then you said you were.... 9:44 PS: Teaching at JMU. For four years I taught there. And then I went to Texas. Well I met a person. My last year at JMU I met a woman, and she was in school as well, and so we got together. That was my first real relationship. And we went to Texas Tech, and we studied sociology there for a year. And then we moved down to Texas A & M the following year. I got my Ph.D. and she got her master’s degree. Then we broke up.   4   �10:23 GR: So you were in Texas in the ’70s? 10:26 PS: Seventy-five [1975] is when I went to Texas. Got my Ph.D. in ’80. 10:32 GR: Was there a gay scene there? Well, let’s step back actually. People were starting to come out around here, we know, in Roanoke, around ’71 [1971] was the first gay liberation group here. I don’t know about Harrisonburg. But as you moved out of college and the master’s and then into teaching, and I guess you stayed in Harrisonburg until ’75 [1975]. Was there a developing scene, was there a lesbian community, were there people that were coming out, or did you still feel largely isolated? Just you and your partner, or was there starting to be some kind of— 11:13 PS: Well there were some students who recognized me, that came to me. But there was no organized scene. I had maybe two students who came to me during those four years, and said, “Hey I know that I am,” and you know, that sort of thing, and “I think you are,” [laughs] at which time I said, “Yeah, I am.” But no organized—and that was up to ’75 [1975], still no organized groups that I knew of. And not on campus, for sure. 11:49 GR: Were there any places to go out in Harrisonburg? PS: [shakes head] 11:54 GR: No bars, no restaurants, nothing. 11:58 PS: Nope. 11:59 GR: So what was it like in Texas? Was it different? 12:01 PS: Yeah, in Texas I got to go to gay bars for the first time and dance and met people and experimented and stuff like that. 12:16 GR: Tell me more about it. What was it like to go to a – were they mixed, were they gay men and lesbians, were they particularly lesbian bars? 12:28   5   �PS: Lesbian bars, as I recall. But I think I went to mixed bars, too. But it was a college town, College Station is the name of the town, so we had several bars. I came out to a couple professors on campus. You know, like I had to come out, they probably knew [laughs]. It’s like I always said, I could put on an evening gown and I’d still be a dyke [laughs]. Or I’d look like one. 13:01 GR: On that topic, was there a certain way that you felt like you wanted to present yourself, or that you felt like you had to present yourself to identify as lesbian? 13:16 PS: No. No, I just dressed sort of like I do now, all the time. What do you call it, not casual clothing, but... what do you call just a standard—you know, just clothing, could be male or female. I would prefer that. I was miserable when I was working at the college, at JMU, and had to wear high heel shoes and dresses. Miserable. 13:46 GR: As a secretary, or also— 13:48 PS: As a secretary. And I guess as a professor probably. At that time we still had to wear dresses. [whispers] God, it was awful [laughs]. 14:00 GR: You got your Ph.D. Tell me more about that. What propelled you to want to keep going in grad school? What did you study? What were you interested in? 14:15 PS: I studied sociology as a general field, and then within that, the sociology of food use, and then the study of rural sociology. So rural food use sociology. And when I was ready to do my dissertation, I wrote a grant and was funded by the USDA. At that time an enormous amount of money, 55,000 dollars, to do my research, which brought me back to the mountains where I grew up. And I interviewed rural elderly people to see what their eating habits were and their perspective on the future and that sort of thing, and that impact on food habits. It was quite a story. 15:01 GR: That sounds awesome [both laugh]. Were you interested in history then, or was that not fully developed? Were you reading history, exploring? 15:13 PS: I was reading everything I could get my hands on. I was particularly interested in Native American history, Appalachian history, and Western [history], like the West. And not so much in Virginia history because I always resented the Civil War. I just thought it was the dumbest thing that ever happened in the world. I took a course in it, Civil War—I just thought, how stupid. But I’ve always been a history buff, but didn’t major in it.   6   �15:52 GR: Were you aware of or interested in women’s studies— 15:57 PS: Oh yeah. 15:58 GR: Or women’s history? 15:59 PS: Mm-hmm, women’s history. Forgot that part. 16:01 GR: Tell me about that. Did you take any classes, or were you reading? 16:05 PS: Mostly reading, cause when I was in undergraduate school, there was no course called women’s history or black history or—those things came in the seventies. So as much as possible I read about women’s history. Wondered why it wasn’t in our textbooks. Stuff like that. 16:31 GR: And let me ask too, while we’re still on the seventies, this time period, were you reading any gay publications? Were there any newspapers or newsletters, or gay periodicals or anything like that that you were aware of? Were there any gay bookstores in Texas, or anything like that? 16:53 PS: No, I didn’t. 16:55 GR: So not a lot of published literature that you were encountering around this. 16:59 PS: No. May have been there, but I didn’t see it. 17:06 GR: So you came back here for field work and then what happened after your degree? 17:11 PS: I was hired at Virginia Tech in the sociology department. I was in the department with two women and mostly men, and it was very sexist. Very sexist. And of course I’m still isolating myself, so I overheard people call me the Iron Maiden and that kind of stuff. And I tried to socialize with them, but I didn’t care for their way of socializing, so   7   �therefore I didn’t do it. So I did, I went to Tech, did my job, came home. And that’s it. Then I was denied tenure. 17:57 GR: Okay. When you say you were isolating yourself, you mean you weren’t “out” at Tech, you weren’t— 18:04 PS: No, no, I wasn’t out in the department. I’m sure they knew. And I didn’t socialize with other faculty members. 18:18 GR: What about the other women in the department? Were they allies? 18:21 PS: There was one woman named... 18:25 GR: We don’t have to— 18:26 PS: Yeah, I don’t remember. Who I think knew, and she invited me to her house a couple times and we had dinner and that sort of thing. But she was married, but I think was a very open person, but we never discussed it. 18:44 GR: When did you start at Tech, do you remember? 18:47 PS: 1980. All of 1980. 18:51 GR: And were you, if you don’t mind me asking, you had a partner in Texas but that fell apart? 18:57 PS: Fell apart, yeah, so I was single at that time. 19:02 GR: So what was it like sort of coming back, but this is not Harrisonburg, this was a new region. What was it like showing up in—were you living in Blacksburg? 19:14 PS: No, I did for about two months, and then I moved to Salem. 19:19   8   �GR: Okay. 19:20 PS: Cause I thought there was more life here. And there was, at that time. More life, and I got on a softball team [laughs]. And there’s where I met my circle of friends to start with. 19:33 GR: Great, so tell me about—well, I’m so curious, tell me about Salem from fall of 1980 and early ’80s, but also we’ve heard a little bit about a softball league, I guess that played at Oakey’s Field here. 19:50 PS: Mm-hmm. 19:50 GR: Maybe if you could tell me a bit more about, first of all, why did you think Salem was an interesting place, because you know, when I moved to Salem from New York, I was like, what is this place? [laughs] So I’m curious to know what Salem was like in the early ’80s. 20:05 PS: Well, I moved up here—I had one connection to a lesbian who lived in Roanoke. And she told me about things like the ball stuff, and you can go and watch, or you can play. So I really wanted to get out of Blacksburg and come here. I thought I would be more anonymous from my job there. I was a little scared about my job. So I met women here. We had flings and stuff like that, and one of them actually tried to blackmail me. She was going to call Tech and tell them I was a lesbian, and I said, “You know, here’s the number. Call. I won’t be blackmailed.” And I don’t think she ever called. So I got into the ball game scene. Lot of drinking going on. I wasn’t a heavy drinker. I drank some beer. People would come to watch the ball game and then they would drink themselves into passing out, and be up on the bank when everybody left. Women. So people would be concerned about them but it didn’t seem to be a whole lot of concern. Nobody went up and got them and took them home, as far as I know. I wasn’t concerned either, cause I thought that was stupid [laughs]. So there was a lot of drinking. 21:45 GR: You played in the league or you watched on the— 21:49 PS: I played in the league. I was a pitcher. I couldn’t run very fast cause I have short legs, so they always yelled at me. I could hit the ball, but I couldn’t get to first base on time [laughs]. But I was a hell of a good pitcher. I could drop that thing right in there and they didn’t know where it came from. Right over the base. 22:13   9   �GR: We heard that with the softball league here, a lot of the players were not “out,” per se, but you knew that some of the players on the softball team were gay, and probably some of the women were straight. What was your perception of that? Was softball a place where you could reliably meet other queer women? 22:39 PS: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you could. There were straight women that played with us. They were aware of our situation. A lot of breakups happened on the ball field, and people would come in and find their girlfriend with another girlfriend. There’d be a fight. That happened quite often. A lot of the relationship issues were played out right there, and you also met people there. So nice things happened there, and breakups happened there as well. So it was sort of the décor of our existence as lesbians. 23:16 GR: Let me ask you about the drinking culture, cause you brought that up. Someone mentioned to us this place Taylor House in Salem. I don’t know if that sounds familiar. [PS shakes head no] There was a lesbian-owned restaurant on West Main Street or something like that. But were there places that you all went to drink? You said people were watching the ball game and drinking on the side and drinking into oblivion, but were there bars in Salem? Were there restaurants in Salem? 23:48 PS: The only one that I know of, and I never have been there, was The Coffeepot. And that was actually open to lesbians in the ’40s [1940s] and ’50s [1950s] as well, down on Brambleton Avenue. A lot of the older lesbians, even older than me, or my age, would tell stories about going down there on Friday night with their girlfriend and drinking. So The Coffeepot was a hangout for lesbians. 24:18 GR: You never went but you heard some of the older folks tell stories? 24:21 PS: Mm-hmm, well I heard them say, “We were at The Coffeepot last night.” 24:26 GR: Interesting. What about in Roanoke? Did you go into the city of Roanoke? Were there places there? Did you go to The Park? 24:33 PS: I did, later on in life, after I met a partner. We would go down. We’d wake up at 2 a.m. in the morning and say let’s go dancing, and then we’d go down there and dance till dawn [laughs]. More than one time. Maybe ten times. Yeah, we went to The Park. 24:54 GR: There was obviously a lot of gay men there too.   10   �24:58 PS: Mm-hmm. 24:59 GR: But was it a place that you felt comfortable? Was there a significant amount of women also? 25:04 PS: Not a significant amount of women. I was partnered, so I wasn’t looking too much at the women. But I had an attitude toward them, actually. Like, I don’t want to meet anybody that hangs out at the bar all the time. And I was really worried about the drinking that went on. And later on, when we talk about First Friday, I’ll go deeper into that, if we are. But then First Friday. It was 1982 that I went to my first Friday. It was in someone’s house. That’s where we met. We met in people’s houses, and this one was out in—I think out in Catawba. It was fairly far away, the first one I went to. And I noticed two women there that night, and I ended up with one of them. It was going to be one or the other [laughs] that I was going to try to date. 26:06 GR: You went on your own? 26:08 PS: I went with two friends. One of them is still my dear friend, and the other one moved away. But they were partners, and they knew I was new into the community. Or newly out in the community. I had lived here two years already. And they said, “You need to get involved with First Friday.” So I said, “Okay, take me.” So we met somewhere and they drove me. So that night, I saw the person I wanted to be with. One of two. [laughs] 26:40 GR: And it worked. 26:41 PS: It worked. 26:41 GR: It worked out. 26:43 PS: It worked for seven years, and we’re still really good friends. She lives in Vienna, Austria, now. So I get to visit her once a year at least. 26:55 GR: What was your impression after you went for several months? Did you start to go regularly to the house parties? 27:05   11   �PS: Yes. 27:06 GR: And what was your impression of that cohort of people, of the First Friday group? 27:10 PS: Well, it was very open, but stratified. Do you know what I mean? There were the kind of wealthy lesbians, and then the working-class lesbians. But that never was a problem. We had that one thing in common. We got along very well. But I just thought, it’s a place to get drunk. It really was a place to drink, and that was sort of the culture. It was like, how much beer can we consume tonight? Dancing, we did dancing. There was one person who was a clinical psychologist, who was the center of attention. She was a heavy drinker, still is. And so people emulated her a lot, even in dress. So it was like a bunch of little children looking for leadership. Or looking for somebody to look up to. Bunch of little gay women. 28:28 GR: What was the dress like? Was there still any semblance of a kind of butch-femme dichotomy? 28:35 PS: Oh yeah, butch-femme. Now the femmes—she was femme, so the femmes copied her. The butches just went like me, blue jeans and a shirt. 28:50 GR: Why do you think—cause you’ve mentioned this—you can answer this if you feel comfortable—why do you think that such heavy drinking was part of the lesbian community, the lesbian scene? 29:07 PS: Well, I have my theories. It was painful. You’re hiding your pain, and you’re being a macho at the same time. We had retreats. We started that probably in ’85 [1985]. We started renting a camp, a girl scout camp the first time we did it, up in Christiansburg. We rented a girl scout camp, and we’d go there and we had gay Olympic games, and we spent the whole weekend, we’d have a big feast on Saturday night. Those were really fun, but the major thing that was hauled there was beer. And I actually split with First Friday ultimately over that. Because we were making money to provide food at the retreat, and some of us were working really hard to make that money, and then a pickup truck load of beer would come in. I mean stacked. And I just didn’t think it was right for me to be working for people to drink. People would come from miles around, from all over Virginia, to come to our retreats, and they’d bring their partners. And their partners maybe were on the wagon. And they’d fall off the wagon at the retreats. Then we’d get complaints—“if y’all didn’t serve so much beer, my girlfriend wouldn’t be drinking again.” Although that wasn’t the case, but we were still accused of that. So I got really angry about that. And then it was like, when the retreat was over, the   12   �beer truck drove to the houses of the main ringleaders. And they just drank it the rest of the year. Free beer. So I got really angry about that. 31:31 GR: I’ll go back to the retreat, cause I’ve got more questions about that. But you’re mentioning some of the houses of the ringleaders. Was Old Southwest, was that neighborhood a big—you know, around Highland Park—was that a central area? 31:45 PS: Highland Park? Yeah, that area. It was very big. And a lot of the leaders—and nonleaders—lived in those areas. That was the cool place to live. Old Southwest. 32:02 GR: Did you ever live there? 32:06 PS: No, I lived close to there. I lived in [the] Grandin Road area. Owned a couple houses over there. 32:16 GR: And you had a frame shop. 32:18 PS: I did. How’d you know that? 32:20 GR: That’s how I found you to contact you, actually. I mean, I know you through the [Salem] museum, but we have some copies of Skip Two Periods, which was the newsletter for First Friday. 32:32 PS: [laughing] Right. 32:33 GR: And you have an advertisement in there for Marilett Frames. 32:36 PS: Frames. That was my girlfriend’s first four letters and my last four. Marilett Frames. It was my first date with her, actually, I went to Blacksburg to pick up some pictures that a friend of mine that I taught with up there wanted me to frame for her. I didn’t know anything about framing, but I said, “I can do it.” So we drove up to Blacksburg and we met this woman and picked up her framing and brought it back, and then we figured out how we were going to do it. Well, it turned out to be pretty good [laughs]. So we started a little frame business in the basement of our house on Maiden Lane. And then I continued it for years. Twenty-some years. I just quit maybe two years ago, framing.   13   �33:33 GR: Did you start that up while you were still at Tech? 33:36 PS: Mm-hmm. 33:38 GR: So I wonder if you could go back to that. It sounded like your experience at Tech was really awful. Just that the culture of the department— 33:46 PS: Yep. 33:46 GR: If you feel comfortable talking about it, do you want to talk about the tenure—how the Tech thing ended? 33:59 PS: Well, I went up for tenure at the appropriate time, five years into my time there. And I was denied. Even though I had brought in grants. It was a very painful time. Brought in grants, published articles. There was a couple people in the department who said that my work was not real sociology. And they denied me tenure. But there was also a reputation there in that department, “we will never tenure a female.” That was said. It was told to me. “We will never tenure a female.” And it was years before they did. So I was denied tenure. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, truly. And so within a week I had a job at Radford, with a promotion and a 6000 dollar raise. And I was very happy over there. So I didn’t even have to stay my last year. I really don’t know what the problem was at Tech except it was full of male pigs. I mean, chauvinist pigs. One of them came down the hall after I was denied tenure, and I was packing my office, and he said, “Let me help you with that.” In a way that was like, sooner you get out of here, the better. I don’t know what it was. But people told me that it was said that I didn’t do real sociology, cause I was studying food habits and rural, Southern, and all that. So it was the best thing that ever happened. My department chair was very upset, because he liked me and thought I did good work. My outside reviewers said it was some of the most creative work they had ever seen. 36:08 GR: It sounds like sexism was rampant. 36:10 PS: Rampant. It was. 36:14 GR: Do you think that homophobia was also part of that?   14   �36:17 PS: Mm-hmm. I do. Cause I was referred to as the Iron Maiden. Which is, you know, big, strong, dyke woman. That’s the term we used to use. Which, you know that, yeah. 36:35 GR: You weren’t the kind of woman that they would tolerate. 36:43 PS: Mm-hmm. And the first woman they tenured after I left, which was some years later, ended up marrying one of the pipsqueaks [laughs]. 36:56 GR: So let’s go back to First Friday. It’s a social group. Would you say that it was also political? Was there ideology to First Friday about lesbian feminism, or separatism? Were you talking about these ideas? 37:18 PS: We did. There was some politics involved. I know it was very good for people, overall. Very, very good, cause it was a place where you could be yourself. For me it was very good. Cause it was a place I could go and be myself and meet people. And some of the people are still my best friends, that I met at First Friday. 37:45 GR: Did you ever host one at your house? 37:48 PS: Yes, one time. And when the people started putting cigarette butts out in my carpet, I didn’t host anymore [both laugh]. 38:01 GR: Lot of different behaviors [both laugh]. Let’s go back to the retreats. What did you like best about the retreats? Did you like the gay Olympics? I imagine there were workshops? 38:20 PS: Workshops, yeah. 38:22 GR: What were some of the things that you remember most fondly about the retreats? 38:30 PS: I turned out to be the major cook. So that was kind of fun, cooking for four hundred people and roasting chicken and stuff like that. I enjoyed the Olympics. I loved watching the antics, cause we had some very creative people in First Friday who could just be the biggest clowns you have ever seen. The dynamics between women, I’ve always been interested in watching that, as a sociologist. What’s going on here? Cliques, and that kind   15   �of thing. But I think getting away to a woodsy kind of place and just being who you are – I mean, some of us stripped down, some naked, some down to the waist, and ran around doing Olympics. That was just freedom, that’s what it was. And I remember kind of grieving when we’d come back home. Like, oh, I miss that. 39:35 GR: How would you characterize the types of women who came to the retreat? Did straight or questioning women come? Cause I guess it was called the Women’s Retreat, not lesbian. 39:49 PS: No, the Lesbian Retreat. 39:51 GR: Oh, was it pretty clear it was— 39:53 PS: Very clear it was lesbians. But we had questioning women come. 39:57 GR: And what about bisexual women? 40:00 PS: I’m sure. 40:00 GR: Just within First Friday, were bisexual women respected? 40:02 PS: Yeah. They were there. 40:13 GR: Keeping up on this trend, what was the general attitude toward the gay male community, would you say, within First Friday? Was there cooperation? 40:25 PS: Some. Some special guys that we liked. Gerry Jennings was one. There was one that I taught with at Radford. What was his name? It just slipped in and slipped out. It’ll come. Who was very good. Very cooperative. He’d invite us to his house for dinner, as couples. He had a partner. So we did some neat things. And he always joked and said that he liked to have lesbian friends cause they had pickup trucks and they could haul things for him. And I did, I built him a fence [both laugh]. There were good times, pretty good times. 41:23 GR: There was a bowling league, too, in the ’80s [1980s], were you aware of that?   16   �41:27 PS: No. I should have been. It must have been a whole different group. Cause if it was the First Friday group, I would have known. 41:35 GR: It wasn’t a lesbian thing, I think it was mixed men and women. 41:38 PS: Mixed men and women. 41:39 GR: Yeah. 41:40 PS: No, didn’t know. 41:44 GR: Did you go to any of the first pride festivals down in Wasena [Park]? 41:51 PS: I did. The first couple, I went. 41:55 GR: What was that like? 41:56 PS: Well, it was again like a mini-retreat, where you could walk and feel like you could be who you were. But now, I don’t care now. I’ll walk wherever I want to. I feel damn proud [laughs]. But there was always this fear that maybe people didn’t like you, or that you might get hurt by people, by crude men. I heard these things growing up. Like I heard my brother say one time that all gays should be lined up and shot. He said it right to me. And people where I grew up felt very strong about it. There was one lesbian in the community that I knew of, and I knew it because I had this gaydar thing with her. Went to elementary school with her. Her name started with an L, that’s all I’ll say. I was about thirteen years old and she would come to my grandma’s house when we were there on Sundays for dinner. That’s a midday meal. And I wouldn’t even—I couldn’t be around her, cause I knew there was something emanating off her that was going to get on me, and my mother would know [laughs]. But she was raped, and all kinds of things done to her. No wonder I didn’t want anyone to associate me with her. But she was. 43:38 GR: How was your relationship with family members over time? Did you break from your family?   17   �43:46 PS: Broke from my family. Left them up there. I’m the only one that ever left, to this day. Except for my niece, who lives in Salem. But I was told by my sister—it’s when that woman down in Florida was leading all the—what was her name, the singer? 44:09 GR: Anita Bryant. 44:10 PS: Anita Bryant was leading all this anti-gay stuff [in the late 1970s]. My sister said, “I would go down there and march with her if I could!” And I said, “Oh, why would you do that?” And she said, “Just because. I hate gay people.” And I said, “What if you found out there was one in your family?” She said, “If you’re trying to tell me you’re gay, I don’t want to hear it, and you will never see my children again.” So I said, “Well, in that case, I won’t tell you.” And then one other time, after my dad died, I thought it was time for me to come out to the family. So we went to visit his grave. My sister and I were coming back across the mountain. I stopped on the top of the mountain and I said, “There’s something I really have to share with you.” She said, “If you’re going to tell me you’re gay, I’m going to throw up.” And I said, “You know, in that case I’m not going to tell you” [both laugh]. Cause she didn’t want to hear it so bad, that when I told her, she didn’t recognize it. So it’s always been that way. And then I have a niece who’s gay and a nephew who’s gay. And my niece here in Salem with me is well aware. She defends me with her parents, which is my sister. My niece defends me and says, “Got nothing to do with who she is.” That sort of thing. So I never came out to them. I tried to come out to my mother after my daddy died, and I did come out to her. I said, “Mom, I’m gay.” And she said, “Oh my God, I’m glad your daddy didn’t live to hear that.” We never talked about it again after that. 46:07 GR: When you stepped away from First Friday, it was still going I guess a little bit? 46:15 PS: Yeah it had died down quite a bit, but I started another group with a couple other women. An alternative group where we had speakers. It was sort of an educational kind of group, to have in fairly famous people who were gay to come in and do lectures and stuff like that. 46:43 GR: Tell me more about this. 46:45 PS: We started at the public library downtown, on Jefferson, and there were about five of us who said, “We’re tired of this crap.” Because I thought, and we thought as a group,   18   �that First Friday had deteriorated to just booze. And that we wanted to have an alternative, where you could go be who you are and actually get some education, and participate in discussions. That went on for quite a while. 47:17 GR: Like a couple years, or? 47:19 PS: Couple years. 47:21 GR: What was it called? 47:23 PS: I don’t remember [laughs]. 47:26 GR: Maybe you have some old flyers somewhere? 47:28 PS: I might have some, I don’t know. No, I know I don’t. I don’t. 47:34 GR: [laughs] Tell me more about what kind of programs you put on. You invited speakers. What were some of the topics of discussion? Was it about raising people’s consciousness, raising awareness? 47:46 PS: Yeah, yeah. Professors from Tech, in English, women’s studies groups, who would come and talk about gay literature, stuff like that. I can’t remember their names and wouldn’t call them if I could cause you told me not to [both laugh]. 48:12 GR: Was this always at the public library? 48:15 PS: Always at the public library. 48:16 GR: For a few years. 48:17 PS: And we got up to—maybe we had fifteen or twenty people who’d come. And men were welcome as well, if they wanted to come. 48:27   19   �GR: But the topics were women’s studies. 48:30 PS: Women’s issues, gay issues. Yeah. Things that we thought would educate people. We also did some Saturday activities. We were interested in gay women with children, cause gay women couldn’t bring children to First Friday, so they couldn’t come a lot of times. So we had activities out at Douthat State Park. We’d go out and do horseback riding. Stuff like that. And out of that group, an interesting thing I think, that I was very proud of, cause I have all these skills, and did them. I could do gutters, I could do electric, I could do plumbing. Cause I used to buy houses and fix them up and sell them. So I had all these skills. So I started this workshop where, if a woman, a lesbian, had something wrong at her house that she needed repaired, we would meet and all get together and go repair that for her. And then in the meantime, everybody’s learning that skill. So I was trying to disseminate my skills out to other women to make them independent of men. Of calling in a plumber. They could do it themselves. So that lasted a year. 50:01 GR: So let me just see if I have the chronology right. You got involved with First Friday in ’82 [1982]. You went to the women’s retreat for the first time in ’85 [1985], you said. 50:10 PS: Probably ’85, yeah. 50:11 GR: And you stepped away maybe in sometime like the late eighties? So would you say your group— 50:20 PS: I’d say we stepped away probably in the mid-nineties. No, no, no, that’s a lie. Probably around ’89 [1989]. 50:36 GR: And your group may have been like ’89, ’90, ’91, that time. 50:40 PS: Mm-hmm. 50:41 GR: The first pride festival [in Wasena Park] was ’89 [1989], so that is a reference point. So around that time? 50:46 PS: Yeah.   20   �50:48 GR: Interesting. 50:49 PS: But when we offered those kind of things, we got people who had never been to First Friday. They came for the educational aspect of it. 51:01 GR: So we’re coming to kind of the last bits of our time. What happened then, as say we move into the nineties, First Friday dissolves, or your group goes for a couple years. What happened then? Were you still interested in creating a lesbian community? Or did you find that people were isolating more? 51:26 PS: They were isolating more. More long-term relationships. Those kind of people don’t tend to go out on Friday night. I was in a long-term relationship at that point, for ten years it lasted. I did a lot of traveling with my partner. We traveled all over the United States. Then about 2004, I got back with what I call “The Devil.” We’d broken up [laughs] and then we got back together. The Devil, yeah, in a female form. That was pretty rough, again for a year. And then we ended that one. And since then, I’ve just kind of bounced around. And now it’s been 2009 since I’ve dated anybody. Not interested anymore. 52:28 GR: What do you think about the progression of LGBTQ whatever—the progression of this movement over time? Is there still a place for lesbians within whatever we call LGBTQ? Is there still a lesbian community, per se? How would you look at, say, the last twenty, thirty, forty years? What’s different from the eighties to now, in your opinion? 52:59 PS: Well I think in the eighties, we felt like we had to group. You had to have your gay men and your gay women. Now I think you can just be gay, or be whoever you are. And I tell people, young ones, “whippersnappers” I call them, that “you really owe me some thanks, buddy. Cause we made it possible for you to walk down the street and hold your girlfriend’s hand.” So I think it’s more open now. I don’t think people are as scared as we were, physically scared of being hurt. I hope not. I think it happens, but it’s not like it used to be. Maybe we were scared for no reason. I don’t know. 53:53 GR: When we were just walking over here from lunch, before we met you, we saw a couple, two girls, on campus holding each other, sitting down on a bench. I noted that walking over here. Maybe you wouldn’t have seen that on a college campus back in the day. 54:11 PS: Oh no. And you still notice it, but I think we’re coming to a point where it won’t be noticed. You might glance over and say, “oh.” You might not even glance. It’s like you   21   �don’t notice everybody on the sidewalk, and I think it will come to that not too distant future, where you don’t notice two women kissing or two men kissing, or holding each other. I think with the gay marriage thing it’s really an exciting time for us. I have a young friend, she’s about 32, and we talk. And she just got married in July and I’m thinking, “wow, that’s something.” And I was congratulating her and telling her, “You’ve got me to thank” [laughs]. 55:07 GR: Do you think that anything’s lost in the progression of more rights, more equality? Do you think that there’s anything, from your perspective, that you think was better about the way gay life was then? Was there a different sense of togetherness or something? I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Is there anything that’s lost, that’s come along the way in the way that gay community has changed, or gay life has changed? 55:46 PS: No. No. No. It’s kind of like freeing the slaves. That had to be good [laughs]. That had to be better. 56:04 GR: On that note, I want to thank you so much, Peggy. I think it’s a great way to end the interview. Thank you so much for this. 56:11 PS: You’re welcome. [END]   22   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Peggy Shifflett Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Gregory Rosenthal Interviewee: Peggy Shifflett Date: 14 October 2016 Duration: 56:15 Transcription prepared by: Julia Greider Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 14 October 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peggy Shifflett, Gregory Rosenthal, Julia Greider Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShifflettPeggy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2962/Seagraves_Sally.MP3 c0c929dfdb1629812780e1043dcdc406 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2962/Seagraves_Sally.1.pdf f5f4f4efd1e5cfb8c65d90007d6b9bef PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Sally Seagraves October 7, 2016 Interviewer: James Stoneking & Jackie Landon Interviewee: Sally Seagraves Date: October 7, 2016 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Transcribed by: David Franczak, James Stoneking, and Jackie Landon Duration: 46:08 Index: 00:00 = Introduction 00:42 = Family Life; growing up in Radford, Virginia (1959 – 1960s) 01:31 = Education; elementary school through college 03:26 = Racial Tensions in Durham, North Carolina (late 1960s / early 1970s) 05:28 = Issues in High School in Sanford, North Carolina; racial tensions; exploring her sexuality (mid-1970s) 12:13 = relationships with her siblings 13:36 = First year of college at East Carolina University (1977-1978?); breaking up with her boyfriend 15:25 = transferred to Radford University (1978-1981?) 17:34 = Having Two Circles of Friends in college, gay and straight 19:24 = Relationship with Family during College 20:33 = Coming Out to Family (late 1990s) 22:03 = The P.E. Club and the “Gay Dorm” at Radford University (1978-1981?) 23:21 = College Students Making Comments 24:58 = Moving to Roanoke after college (1981); dating 26:40 = Workplace discrimination against gays and lesbians (1980s) 27:37 = The Park nightclub in the 1980s 28:58 = Two Separate Lives 29:38 = Finding Out About Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge (2000/2001) 31:26 = Pride in The Park; the Backstreet Shooting (2000) 32:26 = Metropolitan Community Church’s Kirk Avenue storefront locations (c. 2000-2003) 34:10 = Fathers Passing (1998); Coming Out to Family; Coming Out at Work 38:17 = Church Involvement 38:56 = Playing guitar in the MCC house band, The Skittles 39:58 = Political Inclinations 41:40 = Participation in Pride in the Park festivals; Mainstreaming of Pride over time 43:46 = Community Involvement 44:38 = Final Thoughts 45:59 = Thank you �00:00 JS: Okay, so this is James Stoneking interviewing Sally Seagraves. It’s October 7th, 2016. We are in Fintel Library, located on Roanoke College campus in Salem, Virginia. This is for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project oral history initiative. Alright, Sally, if you wouldn’t mind stating your name and where you grew up. 00:25 SS: Sally Seagraves, and I grew up in various areas of Virginia and North Carolina. 00:30 JS: Okay, and what year were you born? 00:32 SS: 1959. 00:34 JS: Okay, and what’s your earliest memories of like where your locations were like growing up? 00:39 SS: Radford, Virginia. 00:42 JS: Radford, Virginia, cool. What was your home life like with your parents and siblings? Do you have any siblings? 00:50 SS: I have two brothers and a mom and dad. I feel like I grew up in the typical American middle-America home. Lots of outdoor play and lots of interaction with my family. 1:10 JS: Would you say that your household was really religious growing up? 1:14 SS: We did have religion. We grew up United Methodist, and we attended church and youth groups and, you know, various things. I was baptized/confirmed in the church growing up. 1:31 JS: So what schools did you attend growing up, then, if you said you kind of went all over? Did you attend the public schools or…? 1:38 SS: My parents were educators and I grew up going to public school. My dad was my principal all but about three years of my life. 1:50 JS: And so you said you went all over, what are the different areas that you spent your education at? 2 �1:56 SS: So, in Radford I started in elementary school. My dad went back to school to get his doctorate at Duke University so we moved to Durham, North Carolina. So I lived there for a couple years and then we moved to Sanford, North Carolina, and so there that’s middle school through graduation of high school. I went to East Carolina University for a year and then transferred to Radford University, and that’s where I graduated. 2:29 JS: Cool, so you stated that you started in elementary school then in Radford, so what was the culture like of that school at such a young age? Do you remember? 2:41 SS: A typical school, I mean, you know, I remember having good friends that lived in the neighborhood and we’d we ride our bikes to school. Probably 12 blocks or so, and we took public transportation, you know, home from school. I don’t recall anything really out of the ordinary, you know, it was just school. You went, came home, and did your homework. 3:26 JS: So then you spent the later part of your school then for a majority of it in North Carolina. [Sally agrees] Is the culture there any different when you were getting older? 3:37 SS: I remember in middle school that we had some segregation in the school system and we were bused to another school from where we originally started attending, for that… You know, it had some tension at that time, racial tension and some stuff. So those were sometimes tense and kind of scary, scary times, but you know, move through it, so, that’s about all I remember during that time in Durham. 4:26 JS: So, around that time did you notice like anything else of the segregation with like the lesbian/gay community or anything like that with the gender segregation that added tension to it? 4:39 SS: I don’t know at that point that I was really aware that much of, you know, what my orientation was. I really didn’t until probably almost getting into high school probably. 4:58 JS: Okay, and you said you were in North Carolina from what…? 5:02 SS: So I’m in North Carolina from fifth grade, and then I don’t… Think we moved to Sanford when I was in seventh grade. 5:19 JS: And that’s back into Virginia then? 5:22 SS: No, I’m in North Carolina from that point on, until I go back to college. 5:26 JS: Okay. 3 �5:27 SS: Alright. 5:28 JS: So you started noticing segregation issues earlier on. Then when you started high school did anything… did you notice anything else with the culture after…? 5:40 SS: Yea, when we moved to, my dad took up a principal position in Sanford and we moved. It was a very tense racial condition. People were throwing bricks off of railroad tracks onto windshields of cars. Things like that, so I remember… being scared for him in the role he was, but he, you know, really was a great leader. He came in and really persevered with that with conversation and respect. In our household, you were respectful and prejudice was not an area that you wanted to venture into in the household. It was not tolerated. So… and I remember a conversation around it, just the quality of people and showing respect and, you know, we had a lot of peers that were not growing up in the same environment and, you know, homecoming queens, things like that, I remember [there] being some prejudice entered in that, it was not very pretty. And… again, I think I was becoming aware that something was different about me, but kids made fun of, you know, they would call… it wasn’t even that a person was gay, if you acted something [gay], there was slang involved. Just like there was slang with any prejudice, but… it was a long time ago so [laughs] you know, I just, I knew I was different. Although I had boyfriends, relationships. My faith was, you know, I was still attending church and stuff. So you know you have questions because you feel like or you’ve been brought up that there’s heterosexual, man and woman, is the relationship. So… all of those questions were in my mind, how much I thought about it because I was very, very active. I played in the band, played sports. So… all my activities kind of circled around those things, so how much time I had to spend. Thinking about those things was probably nominal but they were there. 8:39 JS: So you said you were pretty active in your school then with sports and being in the band and everything. Was there a circle of friends that you might have had in school? How was like your culture with them, you were talking about how the school was throwing around slang terms and everything about homosexuals and stuff like that? So, what was the culture like between just your circle of friends then? was it the same or different in some way? 9:06 SS: You know, I felt like I knew just about everybody in high school. And it was a fairly large high school, I mean our class was probably four or five hundred kids. So you knew a lot of people. I did have a circle of friends. I lived in a gated community so, you know, there was a group of us that hung out in that community. And many are still dear friends today. So… when you say culture, I don’t, you know, I just feel like I was a typical kid growing up in America. Not facing any more adversity or prejudice than maybe other people. But, it was there, and I do remember it being there. The Ku Klux Klan was very prevalent there. You could call the number and a recording would play about their rallies and where they were going to be. So, you know, but that’s about my extent of, you know, being a kid and calling it and listening to it, not really acting on it just knowing that it was there. And that was probably some of the peer pressure that came from just being a kid. 4 �10:49 JS: So you said that it was from your high school years that you started kind of having some feelings, general feelings about maybe being different than everyone else? Did that like cause any fear for you or anything back then? or was there like any kind of resistance against feeling the way you were feeling? 11:10 SS: I don’t recall having fear. But I don’t know that I wasn’t suppressing a lot because I had a high school sweetheart, and it really wasn’t until I left high school and left the town that I lived in… and again maybe I did have fear, because I remember it was almost, I didn’t want to embarrass my family. I didn’t want to put any pressure on them because of, you know, how I might feel. So when I left there it probably was a little bit liberating for me. But, and that’s when I really probably had my first relationship with a female. 12:13 JS: One last question before we move on from high school. Cause you’re talking about how you kind of noticed a lot more things then. Did you notice anything different with your family’s culture, between your siblings or anything like that in your high school years? Different from when you were younger? 12:33 SS: No, I don’t recall. We were around each other a lot. Played a lot of golf, you know, spent summers at the pool. Both my brothers, we all worked. We all worked jobs, while growing up… So I don’t recall it being different from when we were younger to those high school years. 13:08 JS: Were you close to your brothers [Sally agrees] and everything too? 13:10 SS: Yes. 13:11 JS: Yes. 13:12 SS: Yes, yup we were and still are. My younger brother is deceased now, but my older brother and I grow closer. We live far apart but we pick right back up where we left off when we get together for holidays and stuff. 13:36 JS: So after you graduated from high school then… can you talk about where you went after that and what year you graduated in? 13:45 SS: So I graduated in 1977 and I left for East Carolina University. Lived in the dorm, all-female dorm there. Had some folks around from my high school, met new friends. My boyfriend and I were, he was in Florida, I was in Virginia. So it was starting to, you know, we were trying to figure all of that out, and eventually ended the relationship. And I felt like I loved him very much. When [he] talked about marrying and having kids, the whole nine yards, but the one thing I felt was that I would never love him like he deserved to be loved. Because of how I felt when I 5 �was with a woman. So, that was hard to come to terms with and hurting him, after dating the majority of high school. Like we had brief separation times but, you know, we were kids, too. But, that was something I never told him and I wish I had have been honest about it, but I didn’t feel like I could. 15:18 JS: So was that like your freshman year in college then [Sally agrees]… that all happened? 15:21 SS: That all transferring that freshman year. 15:25 JS: So then going into your sophomore year, then, was that kind of when you were able to…? 15:32 SS: So I transferred to Radford University. All females on my mom’s side of the family attended there. I had a job. So I took care of three kids for a doctor who is a good family friend, known for years. And he and his wife had divorced and had three kids. So they were five, seven, and nine [years old] when I arrived. And, he was an OB/GYN and so he delivered babies, so that was my major role, was to be there on particularly the nights where he would be at the hospital on call. And, so I had a lot of latitude… went to classes, ran the kids around. Still played sports and stuff, intramurals. And, my first relationship, and I don’t remember when it kind of ended in that time but it ended. And, I had short relationships through college. I always say I was preparing for my partner today [laughs]. But… living and having those kids kind of, it was hard but I had times where I could go out, socialize, and meet people, so... 17:11 JS: As far as socializing goes were you part of any on-campus activities? I know you talked about intramural sports [Sally agrees] but anything else on campus as well? 17:20 SS: Just intramurals sports… that’s all I recall. I wasn’t in any sororities or anything. 17:34 JS: So you at this point then, you kind of know your sexual preferences [Sally agrees] and everything like that. Did that effect you all like partying or anything like that in school, did you party or…? 17:44 SS: Yea I partied [laughs]. You mean, did I party…? I partied, you know, with straight people, I partied with gay people. For many years, I kept them very separated because I had straight friends and I had gay friends. And, so I did keep that kind of separated. Which is not too easy… when you’re in a small school in a small town. But, again, you know, I’m not quite there being comfortable, it’s still, I don’t feel that I’m going to be accepted. So… I’m, you know, still kind of living that secret life. 18:45 JS: So, you talked about then basically two different circles of friendship [Sally agrees], one straight and one homosexual then. So, when your straight friends, did you kind of…? Did they know you were kind of “out” or were you kind of…? 6 �19:01 SS: They probably did. I didn’t share [it] with them. But, you know, when you go back and talk to people a lot of times they know. They knew. And, you know, my family probably knew but hadn’t shared yet. So… 19:24 JS: So, after you started then in college… How much did you talk with your family then, or did anything change with them? 19:35 SS: No. I went back home for holidays… Usually when I was home I was probably around a lot of my high school friends that would be there for, you know, home. But after time I would say my college friends were kind of my primary friends at that point. And they would come home, we would visit my house. And I would bring college friends home, and usually straight [friends], at that point and, my little brother was still there in high school. So, my parents would be there, or they’d be on a trip, or just depending on the time and the situation… 20:33 JS: So did you come out to your parents then during college, or at all? 20:38 SS: No I didn’t. I did not come out to my family until… my dad passed away and… [whispers to self] I’m trying to think… I’m in my thirties probably. And he died suddenly, so it was very devastating. And at that point I really felt like… nothing else could really hurt me anymore than I was hurting at that point. And I wrote my mom a letter and told her. She already knew [chuckles]. And I told my sister-in-law. My younger brother was married, and she said to tell her something she didn’t know. So, you know, again, when I’ve shared with people I’ve had good experiences. But I will tell you even today, even doing this for me is outside of my box. But something that I want to be better about and I feel like [if] I want people to be honest with me, then I have to be honest back. So… 22:03 JS: So back in your college period and everything, you talked about your earlier experiences in school. With kind of being unaware of different things potentially going on with anything like that. Then, getting into high school, kind of more segregation and a little bit more fearful environment. What about college as a whole then? Did any of that escalate there or…? 22:27 SS: You know, there was the “gay dorm” on campus. My aunt was a professor there at that time, and she was head of the P.E. [physical education?] club. And of course, you know, everybody who majors in P.E. was gay at that point [laughs]. But I can remember her having the P.E. club come over and help close her pool. And I was there. And that’s my first, you know sort of when I first met some of the ladies there at school. And a lot of those became friends, you know, later on… in the latter years. 23:21 JS: So like, as far as on-campus groups and everything… Were there any groups, like the gay groups or anything like that on campus that you’re aware of? 7 �23:33 SS: I just remember them having [there] being the gay dorm. And so, you know, they came and sat at the basketball game and I was with my straight friends, and you know, there were comments that were made at times. And, you know, when those comments are made then you kind of pull back, alright. 23:59 JS: If you wouldn’t mind, would you share any, any comments if you feel comfortable doing so? 24:04 SS: That I heard? 24:05 JS: Yeah. 24:06 SS: [Speaking to self] That was a long time ago… But, I don’t know though. I don’t think they called em.... Well they did have a song that they sang and it was “L E B I S E N [L.E.S.B.I.A.N.], we love women more than men.” Kind of, you know, with “lesbian.” I remember that… And [they] might just point them out at the sporting event. Like, you know, “there they are,” “here they are…” You know, “there’s the girl from the gay dorm,” that type of thing. 24:58 JS: So going out of college then, what year did you graduate from that, and what did you do next? 25:05 SS: I graduated in 1981, and I came to Roanoke to find a job. And my first job was at Merrill Lynch, and I worked there for a brief period of time. And then I went to work at a earmold company, for the next several years. So that was my first venture into the working world. 25:45 JS: So you went from your early school experience, to high school, to college. So that’s definitely a time of discovering yourself [Sally agrees]. When you came to Roanoke then, did that help free yourself even more? 25:59 SS: I had a relationship. When I moved here I was in a relationship. We lived together, we were roommates. A few of us lived in a house… That was probably [for] a year, maybe… And then I really, I had a relationship, I dated on and off, but not really anything serious at that point. 26:40 JS: Were you like completely out then at this time? 26:42 SS: Oh no. No no no no no [laughs] no no. You know, you could still… you know, it’s the ‘80s [1980s], alright? And there is not a probably a provision in your employer’s rules and policies and stuff… [James says something indecipherable] that sexual orientation is accepted. So I lived in fear that if my employer found out they might eliminate my job. So, no, I’m not out at this point either. 8 �27:37 JS: During this time I know that it was kind of the specific areas downtown, where they call them like the gay bars and stuff like that. Did you still go to those or anything? 27:46 SS: Yeah, the Park was the club that you went to. And, you know, I frequented there quite a bit. I can remember times where somebody might come into there that was in my straight world. And, sometimes depending on who it—it didn’t happen a whole lot—but depending on who it was, if I left or, you know, stayed on a particular side of the room or whatever. So I don’t remember that happening very often, maybe a time or two… But after a while when you get older and that scene is not your scene anymore, so… 28:44 JS: Did it make it hard [to] go into that, kind of, out-in-the-working-world after being in college. Where you able to be more open in college than you were, out in the… after you got a job and everything? 28:58 SS: You know, you still have… I describe it as almost two separate lives that you’re kind of leading. So, yeah, I went to parties and I went out to the club and, and you know. I also interacted in the business world with, you know, some of the people that I worked with and stuff… But still I feel like that there was a divide there. That I was keeping two pots of folks, so to speak. 29:38 JS: So going forward a few years, do you know what year you started attending Metropolitan Community Church? 29:48 SS: It was right after the Backstreet shooting, because I had no idea it [MCC] was here. I was attending a Methodist church in my neighborhood and somebody had told me about it and so I asked two questions: I asked if the pastor was ordained and if there was a cross in the church. Now that I look back those were two crazy questions for that denomination, but you know those were my questions. So then I tried the church, I went to the church one Sunday and you know it was small, in a storefront area, there was like a room in a closet area—the annex, kind of—and it was packed. Lot of great folks, the pastor was phenomenal, and so I gradually migrated from attending the Methodist church, because I was involved in some committees and counting money and stuff. So eventually I moved solely to Metropolitan Community Church and that was probably right around 2000, 2001. 31:26 JS: So before then, back in the late ‘80s they had the first Pride walk [Pride in the Park] in Wasena, that area, did you attend that? 31:37 SS: No no. 31:40 JS: Where you afraid to…? 9 �31:43 SS: I probably didn’t even know about it at that point. My first recollection of Pride was after I started attending church at Metropolitan Community Church. 31:57 JS: You started with the shooting and that’s kind of how you found out about it. Can you go into details about how [you heard about the Backstreet Shooting]? 32:04 SS: Well, on the news. I mean, obviously, it was a story that was highly publicized and I remember seeing the pastor [of MCC] on TV and then just later in conversation with some friends of inviting me to come to the church [Metropolitan Community Church] there. 32:26 JS: So when you first started attending it [Metropolitan Community Church] that was back when it was on Kirk Avenue in downtown? 32:31 SS: [Nodding in agreement] Mhm. 32:33 JS: How long were you guys there for [Kirk Avenue location], do you remember? 32:35 SS: We were at that church for a year or two, and then we moved right up the street to a bigger space and everybody just grabbed a chair after church and moved it up. There wasn’t much stuff but chairs. And we were there for several years before we bought the building. I was on the building committee to search for the next home. So I think 2004 we moved to the [new] building. 33:16 JS: So you talked about how when they would pull stuff out for the church, they were literally pulling it out of the closet. Did you guys ever discuss that? 33:24 SS: The original folks that started Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge were in the Unity [Unitarian Universalit] Church. Yeah, they literally had a box they kept in the closet and whenever [they had] service they’d bring the box out and set everything up, have service, and then put it back in. That was a common joke they’d say “church in a box, in the closet.” 33:57 JS: What year did you [Metropolitan Community Church] move to your permanent location? 34:04 SS: I believe it was 2004, if I remember correctly. 34:10 JS: A while ago you mentioned you officially came out during your father’s passing. What time frame or year was that? And how did that impact you? 34:27 SS: My dad passed away in 1998. So that’s not too long ago if you think of how long we’ve 10 �talked about coming through school, and college, and being a young adult. So it was quite a while. 34:55 JS: So you said at that time you came out to your family and everything, is that also when you came out to the community as a whole? Or is that still… 35:03 SS: No, I came out to my family. Still not [in] the business world. Even if you might ask me where I went to church, I might not share that because that was known as the gay church. I’ve been at my current employer for five years and I’ve had mentors along the way. My first mentor I shared after several months of mentoring that I had a partner and she said “you know you can share that at work,” and I said “well, I don’t know if I want to,” and she goes “well, just know that you can share it.” At that point, in my early years there, I was on the floor with some men and I heard again some slang used, and anytime I think I heard that I would retreat back. It wasn’t until the recent years I had another mentor and she encouraged me to be open. I was in a leadership class and that was my task on my first meeting with her, [she said] “I want you to go back to that group and tell them,” and I was like “okay” [laughter]. But again, everybody very warm, open, so all my experience[s] when I have told people have been good. I’ve not had any bad experiences, but at times it’s still difficult sharing that personal piece sometimes. 37:08 JS: Is it because like you’re afraid how they are going to respond? 37:12 SS: I guess probably so. I like to think that I don’t care what people think but I probably do a little bit, truth be known. My partner is not out to her entire family; they probably know. So you know that’s a fine line I kind of walk, with that still out of respect for her and she needs to decide when that time for her is correct and feels safe. So I still live in a little bit of it today. It’s a lot. You know it’s come a long way, the world’s come a long way. I think there’s additional that we all can do but I mean if you look back over time there has been a lot of progress. And progress for me. 38:17 JS: So you started attending the church way back when it was on Kirk Avenue, did you progressively become more involved with the church? 38:25 SS: I did. You know I've served on the board for many [years], on and off, on more than off. And I play guitar in the praise band. Potlucks, you know, [I] love potlucks. I’m a Methodist so we always had potlucks, but yeah, I would say [I’m] fairly active. 38:56 JS: I know I heard a little bit about that band, do you remember the name? 38:59 SS: The Skittles. Yeah. One of our drummer’s kids named us that, so one of the ladies in the choir, their child named us The Skittles. 11 �39:11 JS: And when did you guys start that band then? 39:15 SS: I don’t... On and off, you know, depending if we had musicians. The Skittles, so to speak, have just probably been in the last year or two I think. But we had times where we played and we weren’t called anything just different instruments coming and playing at different times. My nephews have come up and played with us. Just various folks. 39:58 JS: I guess something I haven’t asked you yet is like your political inclination, like growing up and everything to this day. Did that ever change at any point? 40:08 SS: My grandmother had probably the biggest influence on I would say all three of my siblings and myself. She was staunch Republican and so I have a lot of Republican tendencies. So I fiscally lean Republican. But I don’t vote solely that way. I vote based on you know what I learn, what’s important to me, that point on positions and stuff. And that’s probably changed over the years, with just knowing more about… and the progress that’s been made with you know samesex marriages and things like that, so I probably lean a little more to the sides of the things that are progressing that, but I also don’t want to sacrifice the fiscal piece and I really don’t like big government so I’ll vote according to what my gut tells me and my heart. 41:40 JS: And then another thing. We talked about kind of like when the first Pride parade [Pride in the Park] happened in Roanoke and you weren’t much aware of that at the time until after that incident [the Backstreet shooting of 2000] kind of brought you more into the niche of that community. Did you attend any parades after joining the church? 42:01 SS: I haven’t been in any of their parades. I’ve attended Pride and you know we normally have a church service there. I volunteer at our booth. We used to do the food there. I've worked on that. When I wouldn’t attend I would just help deliver stuff and bring stuff back to the church. But I’ve never participated in the Pride parade. 42:37 JS: Did you start attending them then like right after you joined with the church? 42:43 SS: Yeah, my first pride was over in Highland Park and you know they wouldn’t let any of the news people, [they] could only take pictures from certain venues and areas. It was very much monitored and controlled by the committee as far as the pictures and the filming that was taking place. And it’s funny because now it’s really not that way at all. They really don’t do any of that anymore. And there’s not a whole lot of press and stuff that comes out. I just think it’s kind of an event just like a wine festival or a jazz festival or you know just news: here’s another festival, here’s another celebration of, be it Susan G Komen or, you know, whatever. 43:46 JS: So with all the different roles you take on in your church then, is there anything else you do within the community? I know you already do so much, that you’ve already shared with us. 12 �43:54 SS: You know, I do different volunteer [activities], for different runs and stuff like that, whether I participate in walking or running. I do a lot of community stuff with my work [job] and volunteering and things like that, a lot of events, work events. So you know I feel like I’m circulating quite a bit in the community. 44:38 JS: So bringing it up to today then, like up until this current period in time, is there still just different places you feel comfortable with sharing things? Like you have your family and your church community, and then your different work areas, and do you only share with certain people within your work area? 45:00 SS: I’m pretty open at work. I mean, people know, a lot of folks know my partner. So I would say at work you know I have a picture of my family on my screensaver with all of us, so I would say [I’m] out at work and personally. There’s just a couple areas that are pockets now. 45:34 JS: Yeah, you mentioned that you significant other right now, about how that’s kind of the area that you can’t open up to… 45:43 SS: Mhmm. 45:47 JS: Don’t believe I can think of anything else, can you think of anything else you’d want to share with us? 45:55 SS: I think I’m good. 45:57 JS: Covered it all? 45:58 SS: Yes. 45:59 JS: Alright well, we’d like to thank you so much for coming out and having this conversation with us and for telling us your story. 46:05 SS: Thank you for having me. [END] 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Sally Seagraves Description An account of the resource Interviewers: James Stoneking Jackie Landon Interviewee: Sally Seagraves Date: 7 October 2016 Duration: 46:08 Transcription prepared by: David Franczak, James Stoneking, and Jackie Landon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7 October 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sally Seagraves, James Stoneking, David Franczak, Jackie Landon Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SeagravesSally https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2963/Joyner_Erika.MP3 35f0a0043e49d3361a281591e4c55361 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/2963/Joyner_Erika.1.pdf 2a65e55bb8258a6e0cdc8b94bd6047d8 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Erika Joyner September 29, 2016 Interviewer: Rebecca Proctor Interviewee: Erika Joyner Date: September 29, 2016 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library Transcribed by: Kalyn Fowler and Sarah Groft Duration: 57:17 0:00 = Introductions 0:58 = childhood and teenage years (1945 – early 1960s); exploring gender; crossdressing 7:11 = involvement in New Left politics in Detroit, Michigan; anti-war organizing; antiracism organizing (1960s) 9:23 = negative views on homosexuality in the 1960s 10:42 = attending college at Wayne State University (c. 1966 – 1969) 15:52 = involvement in radical political groups; present at the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago 16:52 = working odd jobs; founding a cooperative in Detroit 18:36 = getting married 19:47 = coming out to her wife as a cross-dresser; divorce 24:01 = finding a cross-dressing community online and through Tri-Ess (2000s?) 29:20 = founding Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge (2009) 31:36 = coming out to, and reconciling with, family members 36:45 = Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge & the Roanoke Diversity Center (2010s) 42:34 = playing the bass in various bands; the importance of music 46:38 = Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge 50:55 = current life as a transgender woman in Roanoke, Virginia; being part of a pool league at local sports bars 54:03 = national trends in transgender issues; restroom access policies 0:00 (checking sound levels) 0:25 RP: This is Rebecca Proctor. I am here with Erika Joyner in the Roanoke College library. It is Thursday, September 29th at around 10:30am. This interview is part of the [Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project] LGBT oral history project. So, would you mind telling us your full name, where you were born and your date of birth? 0:47 �EJ: Erika Joyner. I was born in Niskayuna, New York [on] September 23rd, 1945. 0:58 RP: So, let’s start with talking about your childhood. What was your childhood like? 1:04 EJ: I was extremely shy and reserved and focused inward. My parents say I didn’t utter a word until I was three years old and then it was a three-word sentence, so I do a lot of processing. I remember always gravitating toward the girls for playmates and social situations when I was really young. I liked to tear it up with the guys sometimes, too, especially on our bikes, but in school situations, socializing in school, I was sort of drawn to the girls’ side of the gym, or playground, or whatever. And, I always felt more comfortable there. So, being introverted, I just put all of my energy into school studies and basically was a nerdy guy who didn’t do much with sports and got pushed around a lot by the macho guys. And, just never identified with that whole assertive, macho “let me see if I can pee farther than you” kind of mentality. It just didn’t fit. But, I kept thinking, “Well, the only reason it doesn’t fit is because I’m such a failure at it,” so I internalized it all and spent a lot of my childhood feeling victimized. Just all in my head. And, some of it, of course, in reality, because that sort of behavior in my part just invited guys to pounce on me and the girls to say, “that’s just a weirdo.” So, [I] spent a lot of my young teenage years battling that. So, going into like teenage years and puberty, I just… this tremendous urge came to wear my mom’s stuff—you know, her lingerie and take the socks and, you know, make myself into a woman, or young woman, or girl, or whatever. And it is very powerful. Just a very powerful thing. And it got all mixed up in my... with the hormones going and everything, so, yeah, it really got powerful. And, of course, I would quote-unquote “succumb” to this urge and then be terribly distraught about it because I thought it was just such a shameful act. I just didn’t know how to process that. And that’s really, that’s so common with transgender [people], at least in my experience, male to female [persons], is this whole thing that a lot of us, maybe most of us, do in the period of transitioning, or reawakening, or whatever, is we purge. We gather around me what I need to present as [a] woman and then feel so shamed about it, and upset, that I just throw it all away. And then, it can be expensive [laughter] over the long haul. Anyway, so, I went from this whole… so, anyway, I didn’t tell a soul about this. Not my parents, not my, at the time, my brother and then later my sister and my younger brother were born, but I didn’t tell anybody. And, the further along I got the more I just stuffed all these feelings and, in the process of discovering myself, I buried that part of me. 7:11 EJ: So, like late teens into my twenties, I dated girls, got into music, started getting into New Left politics. I was a member of the Detroit Committee to End the War in Vietnam and a group called People Against Racism that dealt with racism in the white community as a parallel effort to support the awakening of black self-determination and, you know, in the streets of Detroit, and [I] started getting into food co-ops and alternative lifestyle, lived in a co-housing with a bunch of crazy other hippies and found out what it was like to just try and communicate on a real and honest level and get into all sorts of problems from trying to find ways to deal with interpersonal relationships given the old constructs 2 �and trying to change the world and all this stuff. So I learned a lot about human nature by all the mistakes that we made. So I guess that sort of describes my childhood. You know, I went to college… 9:23 RP: If I could for a second, just bringing it into your earlier childhood and high school years, did you have any exposure to the LGBT community at that time? 9:31 EJ: Absolutely none, did not. You know, my view of gay and lesbian was just, you know, “those weird queers,” “those strange people that did all these nasty things,” and it was just totally what that dominant thought of the time was. I didn’t even question it. 10:09 RP: I know you said you were introverted growing up through early childhood and high school, was it? So, did you have any close friends that you ever considered opening up to? Or was it just never an option for you to talk to anybody about this earlier on? 10:24 EJ: Never an option. I had a few close friends, but it just never came up. I mean, I just stuffed it. It was gone. 10:36 RP: What year was it that you graduated high school? 10:41 EJ: ‘66. 10:42 RP: Ok, so you went on to college directly after [that]? Can you tell us where you went, and your graduation year from college? 10:50 EJ: I went to Wayne State University, and didn’t graduate. Went for three plus years. 11:00 RP: Ok, so while you were in college, did you have any more exposure to the LGBT community, or did you still have the same feelings about gay and lesbian people? [long pause] 11:20 EJ: I’m trying to picture in my mind some of the people from way back then, which it’s kind of fuzzy. I think it was like “don’t ask, don’t tell” back then and there were probably people that I was friends with that were gay, but it never sort of came up. So, I led a sheltered life. And it was still, although there were certain areas where I put myself out 3 �there, like my music, but still in college I was just very protective of myself and nervous about dabbling in areas that were strange or uncomfortable. 12:38 RP: Ok, so you’ve told us that you identify as bi [bisexual] … is that something you explored in college or did you not accept that until later on? 12:47 EJ: No. This is maybe, I don’t know, five or six years ago when I realized I was attracted to guys as well as girls. It just sort of started happening. So, I’m a late bloomer. 13:19 RP: Do you think being a transgender woman at the time, even if you hadn’t officially accepted that, do you think that shaped the way you grew up? Like in college, do you think that shaped the friends you made and the experiences that you had, just the feelings that you had inside you at all? 13:41 EJ: Well, I didn’t, in college, I never… it was like there wasn’t even that context. So I pretty much did the same thing I did when I was going to grade school and high school and stuff, or like at parties, is just sort of gravitate to where the women were having conversations and kind of try to see what that was all about… it was just so much more interesting than sports. [laughter] But I was like “well, this is me and I’ll just stay at the periphery of all this interaction so that I’m not drawn in enough to get rejected,” which was a big fear of mine—being rejected. So, I don’t know. I don’t think I really… maybe if I just really jumped into the middle of these experiences, I might have reawakened these feelings earlier in my life. But, somehow it just wasn’t happening. Like, the whole desire to present as a woman didn’t surface in me until I was like halfway through my marriage. In my middle or late fifties. 15:52 RP: So, you said you did not graduate from college? What is it that you went on to do instead of staying in school? 16:00 EJ: Detroit Committee to End the War, People Against Racism, SDS [Students for a Democratic Society], Marches on Washington. I was part of the rabble in the streets in 1968 at the Democratic Convention where Mayor Daly was gassing us in the streets and we were running up and down trying to keep from getting our heads beat in and carrying signs… so that was my education more than college. 16:52 RP: So, once you were done participating in all those kind of things, what was your first job, I guess, outside of school? [long pause] 4 �17:09 EJ: Well, I would just do a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I scored psychological tests for a while for a professor, worked at the post office for a while, and then started up a coop garage in Detroit with some friends... trying to make a little money on the side on jobs that we’d bring in for ourselves and then have a section of the garage given over to people coming into work on their cars and kind of tried to do that—didn’t make any money at that. I’ve just odd-jobbed it my entire life, basically. So, no career path, no long-term job, no time clock. Do a lot of traveling, just live hand to mouth. 18:36 RP: So you said you were or are married? 18:41 EJ: Were married. 18:42 RP: Were married. 18:43 EJ: For twelve years yeah. 18:44 RP: So how did you meet your partner? 18:47 EJ: It was at a meeting of the Appalantic Federation of Co-Ops, where at the time I was living in Virginia and she was living in North Carolina. And we were just into co-op things in each of our own areas. And we met at a conference and started hanging out together at conferences and stuff. And we finally decided to go ahead and get married. 19:33 RP: Did you have any children? 19:36 EJ: She had a child who was ten when we met, so we didn’t have any children ourselves. 19:47 RP: So when you decided that you wanted to present yourself as a woman, how did you go about talking to your partner about that? 19:59 EJ: It wasn’t a decision. It was… like a freight train, [sound effect] boom, that just swept me. And I was still in denial mode and said “you know, if this is going to hit me again I am still going to take it to my grave.” You know, I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but I’m not going to tell anybody. And so I just went into this whole repeat of the way I was 5 �trying to cope with it back when I was a teenager which was this whole purging thing and just totally trying to take that part of myself and separate it outside of myself, and deal with it as if it were some sort of aberration, and it just didn’t work. That, let me tell you folks, if you wanna choose that as the coping mechanism, it is doomed to failure [laughter]. And so my wife kept saying, “there is something that you are hiding from, you must be seeing somebody else on the side,” and I’d go, “oh, no I’m not, I’m not.” But really I was, I was seeing Erika on the side, although she didn’t have a name or you know it was all so nebulous. But you know, I knew I was taking my energy away from the relationship… and then, I just refused to deal with it and refused to deal with it and refused… and it just split us apart. And we went to counseling and I dug my heels in and I just said, “it’s not coming out.” Finally just one evening you know... and, my wife she was persistent, she is a persistent, strong-willed woman and she just kept at it, bam bam … and I just found myself “okay, I have been cross-dressing for the past year,” plus or whatever it was. “I’ve got these feelings, I don’t know what to do with them,” and it cut her so hard, that all she could think of is “you’ve been dishonest, you haven’t been loyal to the relationship, this is totally unfair, you know, you’re a real asshole” [laughter]. And I’m going, “it’s true, it’s true. I’ve really been an asshole, it’s true,” but she was not at all able to drop for a moment her hurt and her fear and everything and realize that I was hurting, and so I pretty much made the move to move out and get my own place, and we were separated and about a year later we got divorced. 24:01 EJ: And at the time we had been going through marriage counseling and then that blew apart, and then I started seeing a therapist, just on my own, and I said “I don’t know how to deal with this,” and he was saying, “well, there are two directions that I know of that I might be able to help you [with], but it is your choice. One is behavioral modification,” which is like what the Christian therapists want to do with gay people and transgender people, is to do behavioral modification to the point to where you stop having these feelings or desires or, you know, “we can do that, or, I know of some resources if you want to look further into this part of your personality, and I can help you do that, it is your choice.” So, duh [laughter], you know I’m real glad I took the path toward selfrealization. And this was back when the internet was still fairly, not nearly as well developed. I started going on the Internet, dial-up speed, and started finding out I’m not alone. And that is another [one of the] most common things coming out of the closet, “oh my god, I’m not alone!” And it has just been a progression from there. And here is where I really started delving into the whole area of: what’s it like to be gay? What’s it like to be lesbian? What’s this transgender thing? And starting to get concepts that would start to match the feelings that I was having inside. So, yeah, I don’t know where we are in your questions, but that’s really after my separation and going out on my own, I really started discovering myself. And Erika, the name just came to me. I don’t know where it came from. Except I figured it’s probably sort of an extension of my male name. So anyway, I just started finding out more about Erika and hooked up with this woman who was starting a Tri-Ess chapter. Tri-Ess is a national organization with chapters all around the country. It’s a—I don’t know if it still is—but it was a steadfast heterosexual male crossdressing organization. And at the time when I was first coming out of the closet, my friend took me to a Tri-Ess chapter meeting in Baltimore, and the first time I ever went 6 �out dressed as Erika, with somebody else in a social setting, I went and got a makeover at Macy’s, and I was petrified. And I was walking, you know wobbling, on my high heels across the parking lot, so anyway, you know, it was just, from that point forward I started purposely pushing the envelope… “This scares the hell out of me, well let’s do it”.,, and putting myself into other social situations, and connecting up with Roanoke Diversity Center. I helped start that organization. I was right on the ground floor of that and help start Ladies and Gents [of the Blue Ridge] and I have just sort of continued coming into my own. 29:20 RP: Do you remember what year it was that you started attending those meetings, and kind of getting that makeover? 29:29 EJ: The makeover was and the Tri-Ess period was maybe 2008, because I know the first Ladies and Gents meeting was in January of 2009, and at the time we were debating on about whether to try to become a Tri-Ess chapter or whether that was too limiting to the scope of the organization that we wanted to become. And so right around that time, I don’t know, 2009-2010 or something, we actually decided to become Ladies of the Blue Ridge and then that progressed 2010-2011 something like that, to Ladies of the Blue Ridge - Transgender Alliance. Because we weren’t just cross dressers, we were starting to realize that there is a whole spectrum out there and then of course we sort of did a dope slap and said, “okay, we really need to be Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge,” you know, “let’s be representative here.” And so it was like, first of all it was just crossdressing, male to female. Period. Then it was “well, okay, we are part of a continuum,” and then it was like, full, there is a whole spectrum, and then this whole thing of genderfluid, and gender non-binary, and genderqueer, which I’ve been fascinated with… that the younger generation is bringing into fruition. So yeah, now I’m rambling so you better stop me. 31:36 RP: So, can I ask if you’ve reconciled any of the feelings that were hurt between you and your wife at the time? Do you have any sort of relationship? 31:36 EJ: We have and we do. It has taken a long time; it has taken about as many years as we were married, so it has taken about twelve years. But, in fact, just a little while ago, a couple months ago, she actually referred to me as Erika. But I give her a pass on that, I go, “if you want to call me by my male name, then hey, you know, that’s okay.” But yeah, she has come to the point where you know it is sort of like we do everything we can to meet ourselves halfway, so I cat sit for her, we recognize each other’s birthdays and, you know, have conversations about her daughter. You know, stuff like that. 33:12 RP: So you don’t have any relationship with her child that was involved in the marriage? 7 �33:18 EJ: I do, yeah. She has two kids of her own, twelve and ten, now. And they don’t know about Erika. That was her [daughter-in-law’s] request, but she and her husband know about Erika. At some point that’s one of the next envelopes that I need to push, is making and creating a situation where I can come out to their kids. 34:03 RP: Have you, I don’t know how to word this, did you ever end up telling your parents? I don’t know if your parents are still around or not, but did they know? Where they accepting of it? 34:15 EJ: I didn’t. My dad passed in ‘88 and that was, back in the day when there was no concept of Erika. My mom lived to be 94 [years old], but by the time I realized what was happening, she was already starting to lose her mental faculties and was dealing with agerelated physical stuff and I just didn’t want to bother her with it. So they probably knew because of how strong the turmoil I was going through when I was a teenager. And the dressing, too, I mean my mom probably… I can’t imagine she didn’t figure out that things looked a little bit different in her lingerie drawer, you know, scratch scratch, but if they didn’t know it was “don’t ask, don’t tell,” kind of like how we handled a lot of our emotional issues in our family. My parents were very liberal. They let me and my siblings get away with a lot of stuff. But it was sort of like “don’t ask, don’t tell.” 35:47 RP: Do your siblings know about Erika? 35:49 EJ: Yeah. 35:50 RP: Are they accepting? 35:51 EJ: They are. Yeah. They, I don’t know how much they have delved… I'll have to ask them, actually… how much they delved into it to educate themselves, but my two brothers are sort of like “well, whatever floats your boat.” We love you. And you know, like my younger brother is up in Michigan, my older brother is in California, and my sister is in Indiana. But when we spend time together, you know it is always, I’m just me, I’m just Erika, I’m their sister. So that’s really good. 36:45 RP: So you were talking about Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge and how you helped found it, so I’m wondering how being a part of Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge and founding that organization has helped you come into your own and really be Erika? 37:02 8 �EJ: Just the stories and experiences that transgender [people] and allies that come into our support group meetings. Just being able to connect with people on an emotional level and hear and share our stories, just makes it that much more real. And it also makes it that much more, I can’t think of the right word but, more real, more matter of fact. I mean this is just, you know, this is our reality, this is our subculture… I don’t know why I can’t think of the word. You know we are on the map; we’re not just some concept out there, I mean, I’ve just become more emotionally involved… the feelings that I am having about myself are the same feelings that these folks are having. 39:04 RP: Can you tell us a little bit about the Diversity Center? 39:08 EJ: Yeah, that has been really interesting because there is a wider scope because the focus is on all matter of LGBTQA+, you know. And we are drawing from a wider pool of resources; so, the RDC board has got thirteen people on it. Ladies and Gents is a much smaller entity. Both of us are 501C3, but RDC is more formal, more structured, you know we do board training, we are just getting to the point where we have project managers, you know all of this sort of infrastructure that you need to run a business; you know, RDC is a business. You know, we’ve got financial… I’m the treasurer. So we have the bookkeeping, we have the program development, and we have the fundraising. So all of that is really exciting, and board dynamics, we have a thing called Team Spirit meetings where the board gets together, maybe at a board member’s house, and we just share a meal and lately we have been doing personal histories. Each board member at each team spirit meeting will give a little presentation about their personal history. So it is like team building exercises, so we do that. And then, I have been working on a fundraiser letter and we realized that we have done over eight hundred separate events related to LGBT awareness. Over the past five years. You know we’ve got support groups that meet on a regular basis, like Ladies and Gents is one of them. A non-binary group, the bisexual group, the polyamorous group, there is another transgender group that is meeting. And we put on workshops; there is just a lot of stuff going on. So just to be a part of that, feel like I am part of something that is relevant. It means a lot to me. 42:34 RP: So I was informed that you play the guitar in a band called The Skittles, and I was wondering if you wanted to talk about that for a little bit? 42:44 EJ: Well, it is actually the electric bass, and it’s a little four-piece combo that basically supports the choir at the MCC church. We don’t play out anywhere, we just gather ourselves together and support the choir. Before that I was in a jazz combo with the bass, for about twelve years, called Loose Gravel. The county gave us a bunch of free advertising because you see these diagonal signs saying loose gravel all over the place and so, yeah, that was a lot of fun. And I have been in a lot of other bands from time to time, that are anywhere from garage band to actually making a little money at the enterprise. 9 �43:55 RP: You mentioned earlier on that you were able to express yourself a little bit more through music, when you were having some of these feelings that you weren’t really understanding, do you think you could delve a little deeper into that? 44:08 EJ: Music is something that has just helped keep me sane. Music is very special to me because it is a language, it is a universal language and it’s a way to create an emotional reality that brings people together. There is nothing I love more than being proficient enough and in tune enough with the people I’m playing with to like make something happen. You know, like Loose Gravel would play at a wedding and we didn’t think we had succeeded until we had everybody on the dance floor. And the bass is something that can really drive that because it is keeping the beat, so I’m tied in with the drummer, and it is signifying the chord changes, so I’m tied in with the rhythm and the lead stuff happening, so, you know, it is just great fun to get a groove going and then just “up the ante” a little bit. And get people moving. And music is a spiritual thing for me, it’s a magic combination of proficiency at the instrument and reading the group will at the moment. Working intimately with the people you are making music with. It just, you know, keeps me sane. 46:38 RP: So you mentioned that you play at the church, is that a weekly thing, do you attend the church often? 46:46 EJ: Yeah, every week. 46:48 RP: So I’ve heard a little bit about that church, I don’t know too much about it, so would you mind explaining the significance of that church? 46:57 EJ: It’s part of a national denomination that advertises itself as an LGBT church, but just as importantly, LGBT Christian church. And just as importantly advertises itself as a truly ecumenical, all-inclusive church, so not just paying lip service to the inclusive, but the interpretation of the bible and Christianity and Jesus is in terms of God is love, you are born into this world accepted as who you are, and who you are to become, all within God’s love. And it permeates this inclusiveness. It permeates all aspects, as far as I can see, of the church: the pastor, the congregation, the programing, the, whatever you call it, the teaching, liturgy, or whatever it is, I don’t really… I don’t identify simply as a Christian, so I don’t know a whole lot about the bible and the structure, but it is all truly inclusive, which just makes it a terribly exciting place to be. It’s a small congregation. It’s a small congregation in a huge church, with a lot of overhead, and so it’s challenging sometimes to keep this whole enterprise moving down the track. But it is a welcoming church, there’s not just LGBTQ, there’s several allies and people who just came one time 10 �out of curiosity that are heterosexual couples. And it just blew their mind. And they said, “MCC? Baptist church?,” You know, duh. And it just draws people in that are disappointed or fed up or have been abused by the more traditional churches. And there are a lot of churches in Roanoke that are really stepping forward and are trying to be accepting as they know how to be, which is super, it’s wonderful. So that is good to see, but I think MCC is something special, truly ecumenical place. 50:30 RP: Do you think being a part of that church has helped you on your journey? 50:34 EJ: Yeah. I feel so accepted and I look forward to walking into this atmosphere of total acceptance. 50:55 RP: So what is it like for you to be a transgender woman in Roanoke, Virginia? Do you have any fear of being transgender? Or do you feel accepted? 51:09 EJ: I really feel accepted, I really do. I, you know, there are obviously places in Roanoke that I won’t walk around, for fear of being challenged, in someway or another. But in all the things that I do, you know shopping at Kroger’s, going to the doctor, just whatever, the worst I have ever gotten is that look where they kind of tilt their head back and give you a kind of “what the hell?” look, you know, just give that look, but it has never gone any farther than that. And you know I spend a lot of my time in places where I already know I’m gonna be accepted. So that’s sort of like… but the one area where I have pushed the envelope is I am part of a pool-playing league. Shooting pool, eight ball, nineball. And all of the league games are out at sports bars, where they have a pool table, and the atmosphere and the culture at those sports bars is pretty, on the surface, is pretty redneck, beer-drinking, you know talking about football, the whole macho thing. And with the women kind of playing up to that, and a lot of sexual innuendo jokes going back and forth and all of this mainstream culture. And I just waltzed right into it. And was accepted because I was a fellow pool player. It's like the pool trumped anything else. Pardon the pun. So, yeah. So that has been a wonderful experience. And I don’t know whether it’s, you know, to some of the people there I probably simply pass. They just take me as another one of the women, but I’m sure there are plenty of people where I don’t quote-unquote “pass.” But it doesn’t seem to matter. 54:03 RP: Do you think since Erika really became a big part of your life that there have been significant strides in being, not just in the Roanoke community, but the whole community of our nation being more open to transgender people, since you first [came out]? 54:24 EJ: Oh yeah, yeah, it’s much more in people’s consciousness now. And as a result it’s kind of putting things more on the line that the reactionary conservatives are stepping up 11 �and you are seeing the H2 [HB2] bill in North Carolina1 and all this trash talk coming from Trump and those damn Texans, et cetera, et cetera. You know, the challenges are starting to come to the surface. So this is the time for allies to step up to the plate. It really is. To take on that, and there is some more local examples. There is a situation in Montgomery County schools where there are starting to have to develop policy around transgender issues, so… I’ve forgotten the question. 55:49 RP: The questions was, do you think that the nation as a whole and also the Roanoke community has been making significant strides to be more accepting? Like, if you see it going in a positive direction? 56:01 EJ: I don’t know about significant strides because to me significant has to include policy change and policy implementation. And I don’t think we are quite there yet. It’s all stirring up in people’s minds and the awareness level is higher. But see, where you are seeing more, well, on the federal level you are seeing policy change, so you know that’s a real plus. But on a local level it still seems as though the policy changes that are most visible are H2 [HB2], et cetera. 56:53 RP: Well, is there anything you would like to share with us before we conclude our interview? 57:06 EJ: Well, I’m just glad that you guys are doing this. 57:10 RP: Well, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. 57:12 EJ: Yeah. 57:13 RP: It was great, thank you. [END]                                                                                                                 1 HB2, The Public Facilities Privacy & Security Act (2016). 12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Erika Joyner Description An account of the resource Interviewers: Rebecca Proctor, Kalyn Fowler Interviewee: Erika Joyner Date: 29 September 2016 Duration: 57:17 Transcription prepared by: Kalyn Fowler and Sarah Groft Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 29 September 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erika Joyner, Rebecca Proctor, Kalyn Fowler, Sarah Groft Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JoynerErika https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3435/Bennett_Michelle_[compressed].mp3 c9af484c71e9654b3e6fa92775bab36e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3435/Bennett_Michelle.pdf bc19127306d10e57897c330477490ef0 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Michelle Bennett February 27, 2017 Interviewer: Sarah Sinoski Interviewee: Michelle Bennett Date: February 27, 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College, Salem, Virginia Transcribed by: unknown Duration: 1:21:14 0:00 – Introductions 1:01 – Family background; relationships with parents 3:52 – relationship with the church 5:03 – hearing about homosexuality in the 1960s; her father, a college professor, is accused of being “homosexual” (1960s) 7:04 – exploring her gender and sexuality through literature; the role of the library as a source of information about homosexuality (1970s) 10:50 – first significant lesbian relationship (1980s) 13:23 – life in Durham, North Carolina, in the mid-1980s; getting involved with a Catholic gay organization in college (late 1970s) 15:34 – involvement in the Catholic gay organization’s speaker’s bureau 19:33 – a gay bar in Jacksonville, North Carolina; lesbians in the Marines 22:45 – discussing employment; work as a “community builder”; working in arts management 25:54 – getting thrown out of the house at age twenty (c. 1980) 28:02 – relationship and marriage with Alice, her partner of twenty-seven years 32:18 – talking about hobbies, friendships, and choosing your own family 36:17 – moving to Roanoke in the late 1980s; getting a job at WVTF; meeting Alice 41:28 – issues at WVTF: censorship of gay-related programming; being “out” at work 46:59 – thoughts on Terry Gross and “Fresh Air” and the show’s lesbian following 51:45 – the gay scene in Roanoke: The Park; Backstreet Café; rural gay migration to Roanoke 56:58 – gay neighborhood (Old Southwest); opening a business in Grandin Village; living in Raleigh Court 59:41 – the atmosphere at CUPS; dealing with belligerent customers, including a fight over a gay-related painting on the wall 1:10:00 – what does the future look like for gay people in Roanoke? Rise in hate crimes under the Trump Administration 1:15:37 – current relationship with father 1:16:55 – opening up a CUPS coffeehouse at Roanoke College 1:19:25 – closing remarks 1 �0:00 [Checking sound levels ~ 30 seconds] 0:30 SS: My name is Sarah Sinoski. I'm sitting here with Michelle Bennett on February 27th, 2017 as part of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project oral history initiative, and we're here at Roanoke College in Fintel Library. 0:46 MB: Hi. 0:48 SS: Hey! So, to start out... where were you born? 0:54 MB: Johnson City, Tennessee. 0:57 SS: When’s your birthday? 0:58 MB: November 18th, 1959. 1:01 SS: Where was your family from originally? Were they from around Tennessee? 1:04 MB: No. They were from Ligonier, Pennsylvania in the western part of the state. My father was attending college in Johnson City. 1:12 SS: Tell me about your family. 1:15 MB: My parents were extremely young when I was born. My father was in his first semester of college. Obviously, I was not any kind of a plan. So, I feel like I grew up with that in some ways. They had both of us, both of their children that they were going to have, by the time they were twenty. So, by the time they were in their forties, we were gone and they were still quite young. So, they were very poor at first, struggling, students, whatever. My mother didn't go to college until I was in high school because she worked all the time. They were great, they were very smart, they were basically good people. Didn't always agree with them, still don't. 2 �2:05 SS: What's your relationship with your family like now? 2:07 MB: My mother passed away two years ago. My father and I are not getting along very well right now, but it's an issue of his not an issue of mine. And I have a younger brother who's 16 months younger than I am and I have a good relationship with him although we are not in contact very much, but... we're buds. We just don't live in the same place and we don't have friends in common. 2:36 SS: You mentioned that your father worked at a college? 2:39 MB: He was a professor of English at Malone College in Canton, Ohio. That was his first teaching job. Like I say, I was born in the first semester of his first year. And he was a mess, like every first year. They were young and stupid. I mean they told us that, so… 2:58 SS: What did your mother do? 2:59 MB: Anything. She taught at private schools, because she did not have a degree for a while, but she was an artist and an art teacher for most of her working life. But she did, both of them worked, any job that came along. My father worked in hospitals, they did whatever job. No problem with working in our family. 3:23 SS: What would you say was the most influential person in your life while you were growing up? 3:29 MB: Besides my parents? Or definitely, I mean definitely my dad. I'm very much like him, I look like his mother. He has a very strong personality. I wanted to be like him. And I am, and now I'm a little bit sorry. 3:52 SS: Did you attend a church? 3:54 MB: Yes, my father is also a minister. Attended church almost all my life. I don't anymore. I feel like I've done all my time in church I need to do. 4:05 3 �SS: What kind of an experience would you say that it was for you? 4:09 MB: What, church? I started going to church as a child in the sixties, so it was church. I mean, it's what you did. It's what you did every Sunday. If you were lucky, you got to go out for lunch afterwards. My father was a minister. But he wasn't ordained until I was in about the 5th grade. I don't think of my father as an especially holy man. I know he's a believer and always has been, but he's also an intellectual and I think that's always a hard pair to put together. He's not always a super nice guy; he's a regular man who happens to be a minister. He's really a very good preacher. He's a very good speaker; he’s a very good teacher. So his best stuff was all done in the pulpit. He was not much of a pastor, if you know what I mean. 5:03 SS: When you were growing up, do you remember hearing any stories or jokes about homosexuals? And if so, in what context? Church, or school, or... 5:12 SS: Never at church. That did not come up in those days then. My father taught at a small college in Ohio, and I remember arguments and discussions and learned later that—and we left Canton when I was twelve, so I was very young for this—but my father was accused of being homosexual. And I'm really not a hundred percent sure that he isn't, or at least bi[sexual]. But... it was a thing and it was not a cool thing in the sixties and I think it had something to do with him not still teaching there, not going on teaching there. But I don't know what. He was a very exuberant and exciting teacher, he’s a very very good teacher. Funny and great at it. So students really liked him and our house was always full of students who became friends because my parents were only a few years older than they were. People that I think of as my godparents are former students of my dad's. He was, you know, a very popular guy and so was my mom, who was shy—very shy person—but they had such good friends there. But something happened and I think it was that my father was accused of being gay. And I don't know whether he had gotten caught, or whether it was just an idea, he was in the theater, he is very… he could be taken for gay. He has been at other times, I'm sure. Don't know if he's ever tried it, my guess is yes. But it's not something I'm gonna be discussing with him. He's now 76; I don't need to know. 7:04 SS: Do you remember what age you were when you became aware of that? 7:08 MB: It was early… so say, second grade-ish? What is that, eight? Nine, eight? I have no idea, something like that. He had a student who was gay, and I didn't know for sure what that meant, but it was very interesting to me because I already knew at that age that I wasn't like everybody else in the family. I wasn't like everybody else I knew. I didn't know in what way; I just knew. I thought it was that I wanted to be a boy. 4 �7:42 SS: How would you say that that affected that part of your childhood? Did you feel closer to your dad or maybe further apart from other people? 7:52 MB: No, no. Well... there was just some stuff that I never discussed with people. Stuff that was in my head, my closest relationship was with my brother for years. I mean we're almost twins, so... But I didn't discuss it with him either. I just, my own sexuality and what I grew to realize was my own sexuality, I kept completely to myself. It was not something that I wanted to discuss with my parents. I didn't have that kind of relationship with them... and didn't want to start. A lot of what I learned about like, gay people, I read in the library. When I could. 8:36 SS: Was the library the place where you were figuring out more about yourself? What was the library to you? 8:44 MB: Yeah, it was a great place to go and look stuff up. I mean, I was raised by educators, so my father said always, "It's not what you know, it's knowing how to find what you want to know." Which is still true, but it's in our pockets now, but then it wasn't, it was at the library. And I looked up a lot of different things to find out the information I wanted to find out. There was no… I mean the section about homosexuality in libraries in the sixties and seventies was in the crazy people department. It wasn't a celebrated thing like it is now. So, yeah. I spent a lot of time in the library looking up, finding authors, finding women, finding men who were writing about that. And there's always been people writing about it, you just had to figure out who they were and where they were, and how could you find them. So I did a lot... all the way, really, through college. There were no computers when I was in college. 9:45 SS: Do you remember maybe having a moment of finding a book and identifying with it? 9:51 MB: Oh yeah. The first fiction piece probably [was] a book called Rubyfruit Jungle. A very wellknown lesbian book from I think it was written in the late sixties, early seventies. By a woman who lives in Charlottesville named Rita Mae Brown. It was her adventures of knowing she was different and leaving home and going to New York and finding her people. Well, I didn't leave North Carolina. I stayed there. I left New Bern as soon as I could. It wasn't until I had left home that I did anything about it. I mean, I wanted to leave New Bern and I wanted to not live at home anymore, but for a million reasons, not just... because of that. 10:40 SS: We talked a little bit about this, but did you have any other friends or family who identified as gay or different? 5 �10:46 MB: None. 10:50 SS: When were you first aware of your preference for women? When did that pop up? 10:56 MB: Well... it was kind of in my mind in high school, but I mean… and I did not date very much. I had friends who were guys, and we sort of traveled in a group, so nobody was dating, it was just a bunch of people. This was in like the mid-70s, mid-to-late [19]70s, and it really wasn't until I was in college [laughs]. Bizarrely, I had a terrific crush on my high school English teacher. And after I graduated from high school, I had had her for English for three years, I went to college, flunked out my first year in college, came back to my hometown and went to the community college where my father taught for a year, that'll teach you, and then went on to college where my brother was at East Carolina, and basically I think intellectually I knew I was gay, but still had not done anything about it, really not done [anything]. But I still had this tremendous crush on this teacher. We ended up having a ten-year relationship. So... and I had to talk her into it. She was 19 years older than I, she was a virgin, she was Catholic, she was ridden with guilt, she was exactly the same age as my parents... she was, you know, I had to talk her into it. It took me a while. We did end up having a relationship, we never lived together, but when I left college I moved to the town where she was living, which was not my hometown anymore, she had left there. We had a ten-year relationship that was very enlightening. This was my twenties, the most sexually active decade of my life. I was in this relationship, but I was also in the restaurant culture where I worked, and if you know anything about it, at that time anyway, it was sex, drugs, and rock and roll all the way. And I did all three. 13:18 SS: So what year and what location, which city are we talking about? 13:23 MB: Durham, North Carolina, and I moved there in about '83—'82, '83—and I lived there for three years. Like I say, I started out working at an arts council at first, I've worked at a radio station, I've always had a ton of jobs. But I ended up working at a really nice restaurant as a cook, and fell in with a bunch of Duke students, or Duke students on break. Hung out with them, and had this relationship with this woman but we didn't—we had some people that we socialized with together, but not a lot. She was teaching in North Carolina in the [19]80s, it was not a cool time for her to be “out” or seen with somebody who was out, you know. Once I came out, I never went back in, that is, I've been like way out. First of all, when I figured out I was gay for sure, it was truly a relief, because I'd spent so many years thinking that I was just, like... the problem. Something I didn't understand. Something nobody else was, obviously. You know, I just spent a lot of time in my head thinking “well, whatever this is, it's a mess but I'm going to have to deal with it. But there's nobody I can talk to about it.” I don't have that kind of 6 �family. My parents were not the kind of people you could say "I need to talk to a psychiatrist," or something like that. Not until my mother found out that I was gay that she'd tell me that I should go to a psychiatrist, but, of course, by then I was like "yeah, no." But yeah, I was relieved because it was a thing. It was the thing that somebody else had heard of. There were other people. I joined a gay organization in college that was associated with the Newman House, a Catholic organization although I'm not Catholic. Although I've seriously dated two Catholics, so I might be honorary at this point. Just because of the relief of “there's other people with the same stuff in their head.” 15:32 SS: Do you remember what the name of the organization was? 15:34 MB: Oh no, I have no idea. It's probably called the same thing. Newman has had that program for zillions of years, and it was a speaker's bureau that was available. We, some of us were available to speak in different classes that were usually sociology, health, psychology classes that we would speak to, and our deal was, you know, we would talk briefly about our experience, and this was when we were still in the crazy portion of the textbooks, wish I could think of what the real word I want to use there. But then we would answer any questions. And people just, I mean, there weren't television shows, there weren't commercials with gay couples, there was not a general knowledge of what gay people did in bed, even. So what do you do? I mean, that was really a question, and I got so that I could answer it, although I usually just gave them five guesses, you know what I mean? But, you know, when I came out I came out with a vengeance. I did not come out to my parents. My brother had already figured it out, before I did, of course. It was not anything I wanted to discuss with them. It was not gonna be cool. The thing with the English teacher? That was not gonna be cool either. So I just didn't, I mean, here was something about being gay back in the day, made you a terrific liar. All the gay people I knew at that time lied. A lot. You had to. That was just how you survived. 17:19 SS: Were there any really particularly memorable questions that you remember being asked in those meetings? 17:26 MB: In what meetings? 17:28 SS: With the Catholic... 17:32 MB: Oh. Oh yeah, the speaker's bureau! Oh gosh, they asked everything. I mean they literally asked "what made you like this? Did you choose this?" I'm like “yeah, you don't get a menu at birth or whatever,” so... “no.” At that time, my response was often “why would I choose to have this hard of a life?” Because it was hard. It was difficult, it was not easy to be gay, to be out. I 7 �didn't have like a pocket of gay friends at the college that I went to, I had very few friends. I worked almost the whole time. I worked, I had a job the whole time I was in college. [laughs] I worked with two gay men—two black gay men—who were my mentors at the time, and they were fabulous, they were funny, they were part-time drag queens and they were hysterical. They were lovely guys, but they were coworkers, so... I didn't have any like group of gay friends that I hung out with that we were teaching each other stuff. I was making it up as I went along. 18:51 SS: What high school did you attend? 18:53 MB: New Bern Senior High School, in New Bern, North Carolina. 18:57 SS: Did you go straight from high school to college? 19:00 MB: Yeah, mmhmm, right. I went to UNC-G [University of North Carolina, Greensboro] for my first year and literally flunked out. I was not ready for that at all. I had a lot of stuff going on in my head, and did not go to class often enough. But I did go straight from there. I suggested to my dad one time that I either not go to college or not go to college right now, and it wasn't optional for him. He didn't have any understanding of that and that was it. 19:31 SS: Did you ever spend any time in the military? 19:33 MB: No, no. But I worked in Jacksonville, North Carolina after I left college, after I graduated. I worked for a record bar for like five years when I was in school and out of school. There was a record bar in Jacksonville that I worked at that the Marines and I—in eastern North Carolina there are three military bases, like right there, practically cheek by jowl. And they're big ones. And so there was always a very big military presence in that area, always is. And so I went to, I had heard that there was a gay bar in Jacksonville, and I heard that it was called the Friend's Bar, so I called them up and they wouldn't tell me if it was a gay bar, because it wasn't safe, and especially not safe in a military town. So I decided to take my chances. I was living in a small community outside of Jacksonville. Drove in, and went in the bar and it had, like they do, you open a door and there's sort of like a vestibule, anteroom kinda thing, where you pay and join, because those clubs were always private clubs, and then you go in. And I go in, there’s this young man behind the register, and he says “Don’t touch anything!! We got tear gassed yesterday.” And some guys had opened up the door, thrown in a tear gas bomb, and run off, you know, just for laughs. So they had wiped everything down, and cleaned everything, but tear gas takes a while for it to go away, so you were okay as long as you didn’t touch anything, you know; and the poor guy behind the counter was crying, looked like hell…. So I went in. That was kind of scary and weird, but I went in and I met what they call “WMs,” women marines. I don’t 8 �know if they still call them WMs, but met a big table full of them, and we all talked, and they were in danger of losing their jobs instantly, and their livelihoods, and getting a dishonorable discharge, and the whole nine. And they took the chance of going to this bar because one of the things about being gay in those days was you really did look for opportunities to be around people like you. I went to a gay bar in college, it was a hole, but it was the only one. We were in rural, eastern North Carolina. It was not a city. So this one in Jacksonville lived on, even though it was dangerous and scary to go there. It wasn’t much of a place, you know, it was tables, a DJ, music, dancing, whatever, but you could to some extent be yourself. But man they were always super paranoid because of their situation. But they had chosen this military life for whatever reason, you know, because it was their family’s thing to do, because it would get them away from their families, I mean, whatever. So I wasn’t in the military but I did have these kind of brushes with them. 22:45 SS: What would you consider your occupation to be now? 22:51 MB: I’m underemployed right now. I’m a former business owner, and I sold my business a little over a year ago. My true calling is marketing and graphic design, but at my age and my selftaught status, it’s difficult for me to keep up with technology, frankly. I’m the merchandising director for a music festival called Floyd Fest, but, that’s a new job and I can’t even tell you how that’s going yet so I don’t really have an occupation at this time. 23:31 SS: And you were talking a little bit about sometimes some kinds of work you have done. Was there anything else notable that sticks out in your memory? 23:39 MB: I’ve had over forty jobs in my life. My best and most favorite job was working for Mill Mountain Theatre as the marketing director. I was there eleven years. It was an amazing time with an amazing group of people. The theater itself, and the arts, but certainly the theater especially has always been open to the gay community, and it was a great place, although I was very settled by then, my partner and I had been together for four or five years when I started working there, so it wasn’t like I was searching for a community or anything. Some people describe me as a community builder; wherever I go I sort of gather people around. I did it when I owned a business on Grandin Road, which is a very small business community in Roanoke, it’s only a few blocks, but I was very active in that and got a lot of stuff done, got money raised, got projects initiated. So, going back to your occupation question, if I got to choose I would probably say community builder, but that [Mill Mountain Theater] was my most favorite job. But I worked in radio, I worked in public radio, I worked for arts councils, most of my work has been done in non-profit arts organizations of one kind or another. 25:06 SS: Did you have theater in your life when you were in high school or college? 9 �25:10 MB: Yeah, my father really loved theater. I did some theater all along, but there wasn’t a strong theater program at my high school. My degree at East Carolina is in arts management, so I took theater courses, but I also took music, art, business, because there are artists. But I’m not an artist. I’m not an actor, not a singer, not a musician, not any of those things, I can’t paint, but other people are needed to make the arts survive, and that’d be me. 25:52 SS: Have you ever faced any type of discrimination throughout your life? 25:54 MB: Oh yeah. Nothing too severe, and I do tend to answer back, so people who said stuff, even under their breath, would get it back full force from me always, and that usually stops people. In some ways I’ve been very lucky. My mother threw me out; that was probably the biggest form of discrimination I got. When she figured it out, and she figured it out because I got seen by somebody, she was so angry and so frightened, and first of all wanted to know what she had done in raising me that had made me like this. And of course there’s no answer to that, but she wanted an answer, and she screamed at me for quite a long time, and then she said “and I want you out.” She piled my stuff in the driveway, and said “take it with you, you’re not coming back,” and I didn’t go back for a year, and my father did not call me, or anything. My mother was sort of a tyrant, so he just didn’t want to get into it, so he didn’t, he just backed out of it; and she was mad, she was very embarrassed at the thought that her family would find out about it because they would not think it was okay, and they did not think it was okay. I didn’t tell them though. That was probably my biggest sort of shocker: being gay, having my mother saying that “we’re done.” It took many, many years for that to heal. 27:48 SS: How old were you at that point, what year was it? 27:50 MB: I was probably 21? 20? I was in college, not out though, something like that. 28:02 SS: Did you ever marry? 28:05 MB: I did marry. I married Alice. I didn’t marry a guy, but yeah, Alice and I got married legally two years ago. October two years ago. So, yeah, I did get married. 28:20 SS: Did you ever have children? 28:21 10 �MB: No, God, never wanted to either, when you had the weird parenting I had you wouldn’t want to pass it on. Now my brother has a daughter, and she seems fine, so who knows. 28:32 SS: Does she know about…? 28:32 MB: Oh yeah, yeah. 28:37 SS: Does that affect your relationship with her at all do you think? 28:39 MB: No. [Slight pause] She’s nineteen now, she’s big. 28:48 SS: Are you in a relationship now? 28:50 MB: Yeah, twenty-seven years. 28:56 SS: Do you live together? 28:57 MB: We do live together. We’ve lived together almost from the get-go. Except for the first year, and she was leaving a long-term relationship of twelve years, and I was leaving the school teacher ten-year relationship, so I had moved here [Roanoke] for a job, she had been living here for a number of years, like five years, and we met through mutual friends who introduced us cause they thought we would get along and then after she and I, we had all hung out together, they came to me and they said [whispering] “Do you think she’s gay” and I said [whispering] “I don’t know”; she was very closeted. Her ex-partner was an attorney, who wanted to be a judge, and that was never going to happen, and they were just very, very closeted. I don’t think there was anybody in the community who didn’t know about them, but they never discussed it. Alice was definitely the wife, because although she was an attorney as well, she was not as successful of an attorney, that is, she worked for a legal aid, and her partner was way up there and going higher. And they didn’t want it [their sexuality] to affect anybody’s chances, so, you know, it wasn’t a thing. When Alice and I met I thought she was great, she was going through a hard time at the time, her Dad had just died—very young, and very suddenly—so she just hung out with us and did stuff, you know, whatever. The couple that introduced us, a straight couple introduced us, they got married, and we knew each other for almost a year before at a party, a going-away party in fact for the couple that had introduced us, we went to this party, and both had a lot to drink, and 11 �I took Alice home, because she wasn’t fit to drive, but I didn’t take her to her home, I took her to my home. This was just going to be a one-nighter we said, you know, whatever, and that was twenty-seven years ago. That was not a one-nighter by any stretch of the imagination, and I said to her “here’s the deal, I don’t do closet. If you’re going to be with me you’re going to have to get right over that, like, now.” And she did. She came out to her co-workers, and of course, they were fine. She works for the state, they were fine. We all had a lot of nightmares, she’s four years older than I am, so she had even clearer nightmares of that era, of just knowing that you just didn’t say it because it wasn’t good. She had been in a long relationship with her previous partner, and I said “Did your parents know you were gay?” and she said it was never discussed. And her parents are both dead now and it was never discussed. Although she and her partner lived together and Alice and I lived together, and I’m sure her parents knew, her father died, and I’m sure her mother knew, but it was never discussed. And you could really get away with that then. I don’t think you could get away with it now. 32:18 SS: Do you socialize with gay men and lesbians now? 32:21 MB: I do but not because they’re gay men and lesbians, because they’re friends. I have way more straight friends than gay friends. I’ve met such wonderful people the years I’ve lived in Roanoke, they are all very dear to me, but I don’t hang with people just because we do the same thing. I have certainly, like I said, lesbian friends, but I don’t have an exclusively gay or lesbian circle of friends at all. 33:00 SS: What do you like to do in your leisure time, what are your hobbies? 33:03 MB: I read a lot, I do hang out with my friends a lot. I have two good friends in particular. I do yoga. Because I’m working in this job, I work from home a lot, free-time is an odd thing, but I love to drink beer, trivia games, trivia quizzes, and stuff like that all over town. Yeah, I don’t have a “hobby” or anything. 33:40 SS: At this point in your life, what would you say is important to you? 33:43 MB: Friends for sure. Friends, it all comes down to friends and love, you know? The sort of weird side benefit of growing up gay at the time that I did was that many of us had minimal contact with our families, and so we did what sort of became to be known as choosing your own family. And that’s what I’ve done, and I regard my family—my friends as my family. When Alice and I got married two years ago we didn’t invite anybody who was related to us. The people who are important to us live here. We just… it was a lucky strike [unintelligible]… is that you could say “These people I can’t deal with, and I know that I look like them and am related to 12 �them or whatever, but I can’t deal with them, and they don’t want to deal with me either. So I’m just going to deal with people who can.” And that’s, you know, what I’ve always done. When I worked at the theater, I was quite a bit older than a lot of the people that I hung out with, the production crew, and stuff like that, they were all younger and we took them in, you know. We gave Thanksgiving dinner every year, our house was a place they could hang out, and make calls, do their laundry, whatever, I mean, just being aware that people… it’s a wonder people get through their twenties it’s such a God awful decade. It’s fun and everything, but you feel insecure, you feel like you don’t know what the fuck you’re doing, for a good ten years, and you need all the help you can get, and anybody who’s old enough to remember and look back and go “they’re having a harder time then they’re showing.” When I owned the coffee shop all of my employees were in their twenties, and I’d like to think that as well as being a boss, that I was somebody who could be, you know, serious with them, helpful to them, a guide, a mentor, whatever. Not a parent, but a good friend. A good friend with a little more experience. It’s very important. 36:17 SS: Do you remember at what point in your life you started to feel more settled? If you did, from that tumultuous time in [your] twenties? 36:26 MB: Yes, Alice and I got together when I was about twenty-nine. And she was thirty-three. And yeah, we became a family right away. Our children were cats, but, you know, it works out. Yeah, I’ve felt very settled since then. I never cheated on her, never wanted to, never needed to, don’t see that I will. We have an amazing life. I’m so lucky. 37:00 SS: How long was the transition time between that kind of feeling of unsettled versus the knowledge that you were settled? 37:13 MB: Really short in a way. I took to Roanoke when I moved here, I guess I was twenty-eight, into a job that I had gotten all by myself, you know. My first job in public radio was at the community college where my father was a professor and I got a job there, and, you know, we did not work together because he was a professor and I worked for the radio station, but we were, you know, can’t go anywhere without his luggage; and in Roanoke nobody knows him, and that was a great thing. I got the job very much on my own merits, and did it. Just moving here sort of changed my life to not having to be his shadow anymore, or whatever. So just meeting Alice, and falling in love with her, and just… I asked her to live with me, almost immediately, within the first month. I said “Well look, we’re travelling back and forth at seven o’clock in the morning to go to work, let’s just not do that,” and she said “No, wait, I think I need to do it for a while.” And that was fine. I had bought a house at that time in sort of a workingclass neighborhood in Roanoke, and it was very small, but we lived there for ten years when 13 �she moved in, so, yeah, I kind of grew up all at once. And it was really moving to Roanoke in a way. I never really thought about that, but it’s true. 39:05 SS: So can you tell me more about the way that moving to Roanoke changed your life? 39:09 MB: Well, like I said, nobody knew my family. And I had always sort of been a product of that, and by being involved with somebody for a long time who knew them, cause my English teacher knew them, I just kind of never got out of their shadow. And my parents were teachers, my brother was a teacher. I was not going to do any more time in school than I had to, was not interested in grad school or anything like that, you know, never have been—maybe should have, but did not. Moving to Roanoke, I found my feet. I rented a place, I had cats and my car and a job, I was making friends, very quickly, and I worked with such great people at the radio station, and I met people within the first six months of living in Roanoke who are still my dearest friends. It was just a place I grew up, really. I mean it was a transition, but I wasn’t feeling it as a transition, I was kind of just plowing along, but I got to be a lot happier. I got to be in a relationship with somebody who lived in the same town as I did and who didn’t need me to hide how I felt about her. She had grown up with a very... you know, born in Manhattan, grew up in the suburbs, father took the train into New York every day to go to work, all that jazz, you know, very sort of TV family-esque, it seemed to me, with a lot more money than I had, than my family had, and she had like real furniture [chuckles], and stuff like that, so, you know, it was a growing up time. You know, we both worked, we took vacations…. That kind of thing. 41:23 SS: So how did the job at the radio station intersect with your life at that point? 41:28 MB: At WVTF? That was where I was working. The funny thing about VTF. I was a public relations coordinator. I was assistant, basically, to the director of development who is still a close friend. And she and I had met previously in a public radio conference when I had been working at a station in North Carolina, in New Bern. And… [pause] the interesting thing about that was the guy who was the general manager at that time was a very conservative guy. He worked for Virginia Tech, who owns that station, but he lived here and he lived in Boones Mill, and he came from commercial radio. He didn't really drink the “kool aid” on public radio. He really wanted it to be more commercial and he had problems with some programs. His main problem was with a program called "Fresh Air" which is still on public radio and its host is a woman named Terry Gross and she has always interviewed many people in all different fields, not just, you know, writers and authors, but scientists and you know, whatever. Very interesting woman and she had always spent a lot of time talking about gay issues to the point where I actually thought she was gay. I met her years later and I said "Are you wearing a diamond?" and she said "Ya" I said "Are you married?" and she said "Ya," I said "To a guy?" she said "Ya," I said "Oh my god!” In this town he wanted to cancel the show, and in fact he did cancel it for a while, and there was such an uproar that it got put back on. And I told her when I met her "we 14 �fought—the gay people in this town fought to have your show back on." Because it was the only place, even on NPR, that we were hearing gay people being interviewed, gay people talking about their lives and their experiences. Not necessarily because they were famous for being gay, but because they were famous for being good at something and they happened to be gay. So, that was cool. And so that was a big deal at the station was the cancellation and then coming back of that show. And at the same time, there was a guy who worked at the station who was gay, but he was very closeted. And I worked there and of course I wasn't closeted at all and he was afraid that if I was too out he would be outed and he would lose his job. To make it kinda extra twisty, we were next-door neighbors. Bizarrely, we were next-door neighbors. I had bought a house in the same neighborhood as his and we did not get along. He was terrified of me. I always speak up, I talk a lot in meetings. He was petrified that I was gonna make something happen because I was just so damn noisy about everything that would affect him. And he just, oh my god [emphasized], and I heard from other people he can't stand you, he doesn't know what to do about you, and I'm like “it's not about him. I'm not doing anything to him. I'm just, ya know, doing my job.” And we had this kinda very uptight general manager and so these meetings were always very tough, they were like a monologue for two hours, and you'd break in and try to put your two-bits in and it was just a kind of crazy and sort of tense place to work and this guy being so freaked out by me just kind of made it tenser, you know? He's still with the same partner… when I owned the coffee shop he was one of my regular customers, they both were, we got to be friends, you know... [chuckles] He's back at the radio station. I mean, it's kind of, it’s come around to be a very nice and lovely relationship, I'm not close or anything, but you know we run into each other. And he and I haven't really acknowledged as such that we had such a hard time before, but we did kind of. He came up and he, very shy, very reserved, but he came up and said "Hello" and we talked. I mean we just talked about regular stuff and it was kinda like “okay, we don't need to be enemies”... because we were for a while. That was kinda a strange thing. 46.11 SS: What is the acronym WVTF stand for? 46.15 MB: WVTF stands for… [pause]… it's a Virginia Tech thing that, it's a something foundation. It's the people who run the radio station and it's a Virginia Tech Foundation, but I don't know. Western Virginia something, I don't know. You'd have to look it up. But it's always going to be VTF. 46.43 SS: And at the time that you were talking about when the gay people wanted to put "Fresh Air" back on the airwaves, what year was that? 46.52 MB: That would of been in the very late 80s early 90s, '89-'90, like that. 15 �46.59 SS: Was there a lot of representation of queer people in the media at that point? 47.05 MB: No, but there weren't not... But, it was just that Terry Gross always, you know, she asks a lot of semi-personal questions anyway and she talks to people about how their childhoods and everything affected their art or their whatever it is they did. Talked to a lot of actors, people who have artistic or creative processes, and she talked to them about how their lives were affected by their work and vise versa. And it wasn't so much it was that it was all gay, there was, I mean, National Public Radio was certainly known as having a sort of a liberal bias and her show, which is primarily an interview show, is fairly liberal too. So there was a liberal group in this town that were outraged. It wasn't just that there was a queer uprising, but there were gay people who knew about it who were missing it, but also a lot of other people. When Terry Gross spoke here a few years ago and I had a chance to meet her—this would have been about 2005 or 2006 probably—and when I met her, you know, I told her that story and I went to hear her speak that night at the Jefferson Center and there were a lot of women in the crowd, there were a lot of lesbians in that crowd. And I went up to her again, although I had met her that same day at lunchtime privately with one other coworker and had and told her, you know, what we had done in Roanoke about her. I asked the question again at the meeting because I like to be in front of a crowd and got a big laugh sort of and a cheer from the women who were lesbians who I knew were there who were like "Yeah, what happened there? We thought you were like, one of us?" But she is one of us; she's just not one of us, you know! 49:16 SS: So for you what's the distinction between commercial and public radio? 49:21 MB: Oh, it's the same as for everybody. Commercial radio is… well, public radio is a non-profit radio and therefore they don't have commercials as such. Advertising is not allowed. However, they do have what are called corporate sponsors and corporate underwriters who get messages on the radio and they seem like commercials, but there are very strict guidelines as to what language they can use. They can't come on and go "Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!" they can't sell cars or anything like that by saying [whatever], you know, it's sort of a specific contract where you get recognition—name recognition—for your business depending on how much you pay. And it's funded through the [Corporation] for Public Broadcasting and the NEA, I think. And public radio in this country is a nationwide sort of network and National Public Radio, not all public radio stations are National Public Radio stations. There are public radio stations that used to be more in college towns or whatever that are local, local DJs, local music, or whatever, but they don't sell ads, they are a non-profit organization. Commercial radio is for-profit, they sell advertisements and they have those kind of sponsorships to make money. 50.45 SS: And just to be clear what is the NEA stand for? 16 �50.48 MB: National Endowment for the Arts. 50.52 SS: How do you spell Terry Gross? 50.55 MB: It's T-E-R-R-Y G-R-O-S-S. And her show is called "Fresh Air." 51.04 SS: And you said it's still running today? 51.06 MB: Yes, it's on WVTF. Twice a day cause they have two stations so, yeah, it's on a couple of times a day. 51.16 SS: Do we know how far like the listenership stretches? How many people listen? 51.21 M: The show is recorded in Philadelphia every [day], it's not live or anything, but she's in Philadelphia I think. Oh yeah, thousands, I mean tens of thousands. Yeah, she has a huge listenership. She's a nationally known and recognized interviewer. You should check her out. 51.45 SS: Has the gay social or sex scene changed a lot since you've moved to Roanoke? 51.53 MB: I don't know, I'm not really in it. I used to go to the gay bar. When I moved here there were two gay bars and now there's just one and we've reached the time where in some ways we almost don't need them, that is, even in Roanoke gay people can go to any bar and be gay, you know? But it used to be not like that and so now gay bars are often the place where drag queens and the whole... yeah, the whole drag movement [is centered there]. That's the only thing that they still need a gay bar for in some ways. It used to be that The Park, which is the larger gay bar in Roanoke, and has been for some time—it has been open for over thirty years, I think. You know, it has no advertising, it has no windows, has no, it has a sign with no flashy lights or anything like that, it's not right downtown, it's kind of in an industrial neighborhood up the street from downtown. It always was a little hard to find when I moved here, but I found it. And it's called The Park so it doesn't, you know, it doesn't say like it’s "The Gay Park" or anything like that. So, I used to go to the bar from time to time. It was always the best place to dance in town. I'm God's own worst dancer, but sometimes you gotta dance, and I hung out with some people who loved to. So, we would go, but I haven't been on the market or anything since I moved here really, so I don't know. Roanoke is also the home to the other smaller bar which is no longer a gay bar—well, there was a shooting and killing there a number of years ago, ten 17 �years ago? Ten years ago.1 A guy was downtown and he stopped a guy that was outside of Corned Beef—Corned Beef & Company the restaurant downtown—and he said "Where's the nearest gay bar?" and he pointed down the street and told him what it was called and the guy went down there and opened fire and he killed one guy, a guy I knew. And shot six other people and they arrested him. His name was Ronald Gay. He had hated that name all his life and he hated gay people because of it. And so, it was a nationally covered story. At the time it was a deep shock. This bar is hardly bigger than this room twice, I mean just a little hole in the wall. It didn't have drag shows, it didn't have live music, it had a pool table, you know, and bar stools and it was just a little dumpy dive of a place and this guy went out and just started shooting. And he had a semi-automatic weapon so he shot for a while... freaked us all out for quite a while and the community really came together at that time, we had vigils and, you know, services. And we have a big gay church, the Metropolitan Community Church. We have a church, an MCC church in Roanoke, and the minister there, now, who wasn't then, is a guy named Joe Cobb and he's amazing. And he's always been very active… although, he was married to a woman from before and has two children with her who are both adults now. But, he and his partner also have two younger children now. So that group [MCC] really came together and sort of coalesced at that time. We have a long Pride in The Park. It’s not great, but it's an event. There's always been a gay community in Roanoke, partially because Roanoke is the largest metro area for a lot of rural [Southwest Virginia]. Just like people come to Roanoke to go to the doctor cause here's where the doctors are, or to shop because the real shops are here, before the days of the internet and all that. They also came from miles around to go to gay bars. If you grow up in Check or you grow up in Grundy or some place like that, there's no gay bar there and there's not gonna be one. So people come to town and Roanoke, for as small as it is, is town and that's where the gay bar was. So, it was a community of incomers in some way or young people who moved here so that they could be around other gay people. So that they could be themselves cause they weren't gonna be able to be themselves in Pulaski or wherever, and all the way west really. 56.58 SS: Did they come and set up shop where there's a certain section of the city that was more gay than other parts? 57.05 MB: No. No, there's not… not like that. There's a neighborhood in Roanoke called Old Southwest which is an older neighborhood, it has a lot of older houses that have been cut up into apartments. It tends to be a sort of a lower rent and it's a very mixed community there. People who own their houses and live in them, and have lived there for years. There are apartments where there's a moving population. You can see a beautiful home with a very well cared for house and yard and behind it, across the alley from it, is a crack house a few years ago. So, you know its kind of a mixed neighborhood. Maybe that, but no, there is no gay neighborhood or gay shopping district or anything in Roanoke. As a gay business owner who is certainly known for being gay, when I opened my coffee shop I didn't want to make it a gay 1 The shooting at Backstreet Café occurred on September 22, 2000. 18 �coffee shop. I wanted to make it a neighborhood coffee shop because our neighborhood needed a coffee shop. I live in that neighborhood, and there's a little shopping district there, and there's a co-op, a natural foods co-op, there's a movie theater, there's some retail, there's some restaurants, ya know blah, blah, blah, good used book store, all that. So, that was the neighborhood I wanted to serve: gay, straight, old, young, whatever, I didn't care. So I didn't put out a rainbow flag or anything like that, but I did have customers who came because I was a gay business owner. But, I never like put that in the news or anything, I didn't promote myself as a gay business owner. Just as a business owner, cause I don't think there is… I mean I wasn't running a gay business. It wasn't like I was selling gay books or whatever. I was selling coffee. Everybody loves coffee. 58.57 SS: So that neighborhood that you’re mentioning, that's Grandin? 59.01 MB: Yeah, Grandin, Raleigh Court, that whole area. And that's a very well to do part of the city in some ways, but it's also I think a fairly liberal part of the city in a lot of ways. We're very lucky to have this weird little business district that's survived from the [19]30s. Although the only sort of original businesses that are still there are the theater, probably. And the grocery store that is now the co-op has always been a grocery store, it’s just now it's a co-op. It was a good place to land. It was the neighborhood I wanted to always live in when I moved to Roanoke, but I didn't live there for the first ten years. 59.41 SS: So would you say that your job running the coffee shop was leading into the community building that you were doing? 59.48 MB: Yeah, that was a big part of the community building. I really promoted myself and my business as a place where people could hang out. Where they could bring their kids, and we had toys and books, your know, we had comfortable chairs and all that. The neighborhood really needed something like that, and we didn't have a coffee shop at all so, ya know, yeah, I did do a lot of community building there. But, I can remember when elections were going on and the Tea Party was building and when Obama was being elected, and some days I'd have a lot of groups that met at the coffee shop and I can remember one night having a democratic group and a tea party group in the shop at the same time both having a meeting. They weren't bugging each other or anything, but I had an AA group the next night and a book club of old ladies that same night. It was just a meeting place and I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be wide open to anybody. 1:01.03 SS: Have you ever experienced any discrimination for it being a meeting place and you being a gay business owner? 1:01.09 19 �MB: Yeah, there were a few people who, you know, had a problem with it. If they said they had a problem with it I'm like, “if it's a really big problem you can definitely get your coffee somewhere else.” There's a 7-11 next door and they sell coffee. I mean, I don't have any need to bar the door or make a big scene. I have a print—it's on a canvas so it looks like a painting and it's a portrait of former Governor Bob McDonald, but he's wearing make up and it says "Virginia's a Drag" and this was before the… it was when he was trying to, he was blocking gay marriage and he was blocking some other gay thing at that time. And the attorney general, the next attorney general, Mark Herring, was a guy who kinda got that done in Virginia—but I had won this painting at an auction for Planned Parenthood. And I hung it up in the store and that was a little pushy. Normally you fear in retail you keep your opinions to yourself or else you cut off your arm to spite your face. I don’t want to put a sign on the door that says, “No Republicans.” Cause republicans need coffee too. And I’m certainly happy to take their money. I don’t need to love them. I just need to sell them something, you know? I don’t need to give them shit either. I just need to be a business. Business of not making flower arrangements for gay weddings. Why would you turn away customers? That doesn’t make sense to me. It’s just flowers. It’s not got a little sign on it that says [whispering], “Flowers for Gay People.” I mean that’s just not a thing, you know? But anyway. I had a guy come, several people come in and sort of give me hell about that painting, but it was very small. It’s probably six or seven inches high and maybe a foot across and it was funny and I liked it and a lot of people didn’t mention it but I had people come in and take pictures of it and I had one of the Falwells come in and take a picture of it one time and that was a little off-putting. But I finally had a guy, a guy stole it. Customer stole it. And he was very right-wing, an older guy. He came in every Monday at the same time. Was very cranky and everything, but he drank tea and he wanted to come here cause we made good tea, so you know whatever. And I didn’t work Monday nights so one of my employees called me and he said, “I think that guy took the painting.” I said, “Are you serious?” and he said, “Yeah, he’s gone and the painting’s gone and I’m pretty sure it’s him.” And I said “well…” I called the police and, you know, they came and took a report and everything and, so we just kinda waited and the next Monday, he came in for tea again. And my employee called me and said, “He’s here!” And I said, “How about the painting?” And he said, “Not here.” So I said “okay.” So I came down to the shop and I sat down with the guy and I said, “Did you take my painting?” and he said “yes.” And I said, “Well why?” and he said “because it’s really disrespectful to Governor McDonald.” And I said, “Well, first of all he’s under indictment right now, for some dishonest, you know, dealings with money,” and he said “he’s an honorable guy” and I said, “Well, I don’t think so, and if the painting belongs to me and it’s my opinion, it’s also my shop, so I need you to bring it back,” and he says “I am. I’m planning to bring it back but I’m gonna change it a little bit.” And I said, “Here’s the deal, it’s an original piece of art and it has value. I know the artist, I’ve talked to the police already, so… I can’t have you do that. I need the painting back in its original condition or the police will be coming to where you live, which I know. I must have the painting back.” And he had a lot of reasons why this whole concept of the governor in drag was just not appropriate, it was immoral… it was whatever. And I said, “We’re not gonna have a big discussion about morality because you stole it.” And he said, “Well I always meant to give it back.” And I said, “Yeah that doesn’t. That’s not a thing. You stole it. It’s not yours, it’s mine, and you took it and that’s how that goes.” And he did finally return the painting later that week. He left it with a note at the door and the note which was like written on 20 �a paper towel. He was an odd guy, talked again about how he hoped I would rethink my feelings about the governor and all that. I’m like “Okay, crazy dude.” But, but you know, he was still willing to come in and drink my tea which sort of cracked me up. But he was the only person I ever banned. I was like, “I can't. I just can't have you back again here,” and he said, “Ever?” and I said, “Yup, ever. I can’t. Can’t.” You know, I don’t press my politics on people very often, and maybe it wasn't the brightest choice to bring that painting in, but it did not give him the right to take it. It’s really a weird thing. I also had a lot of mentally ill people who were my clients, customers of mine. Mentally ill people usually don’t work. They have a lot of time to spend and they need to spend it somewhere so they would come to the coffee shop. Some of them were gay… and my deal was, if you can, you know, hang out and not bother other people then, sure. And occasionally they would bother other people and I’d say you gotta go and they’d say, “Can I come back tomorrow?” And I’d say “yeah, but same rules.” But, you know, they have money for coffee so don’t begrudge them over coffee. And I thought I learned a lot about how much time people who are mentally ill spend walking around, that’s why they’re in libraries and stuff, because they can sit there for a while and nobody’s gonna throw them out. And I wouldn’t throw them out either, unless they didn’t buy something or they were bugging people. I would throw [out] anybody who was bugging anybody else so you know. That wasn’t a thing so that was kind of a weird lesson. We are thoroughly off topic though. 1:07:49 SP: So you mentioned about Planned Parenthood earlier, do you support certain businesses or nonprofit organizations? 1:07:59 MB: Yes, I certainly support Planned Parenthood. I was a customer of theirs back in the day. I had an abortion at Planned Parenthood back in the day. When I was twenty-five because sadly the restaurant business in those days made it clear to me that although I fell in love with women, you could just sleep with men. Sorry, but men would always say yes, and then you could throw them out because you know, you were just gonna see them at work the next day. So yeah, that’s a very good organization and I’ve always supported it. I don’t, you know, like I don’t go to Chick-fil-a, you know. Their whole attitude about a lot of things kinda puts me off but I’m not a great boycotter. I’m not sure what else I’m boycotting right now? But yeah. There’s no businesses that I support particularly because they’re owned by gay people or not. That I know of. 1:09:03 SP: Do you belong to any sort of organizations at the moment? And if so, what do they mean to you? 1:09:10 MB: I have been volunteering for the past several months for Habitat for Humanity and they are a really great organization. They are very conservative. They are a church-based organization 21 �for the most part, that is they are not run by churches but many of their fundraising and volunteering raising activities are done in churches, and that makes sense. But you know I’m a great supporter of them. And uh, I don’t know. My partner is much more of a joiner than I am, and she unbearably ends up on the board of whatever she joins, so I just don’t get into that. 1:10:00 SP: What do you think are maybe some of the challenges that are facing gay people in Roanoke at the moment? 1:10:06 MB: I think right now, and this is, you know, way behind the fears that I think any immigrant has right now, is that the current regime is ticking off a list of things that they wanna change and I’m afraid they’re gonna eventually get down to the gays. We’re a lot less dangerous than they seem to think immigrants are. I was in an Indian restaurant yesterday for lunch and it was chock full of Indians. And so many of them were student age and I was like, “Can you go home? And if you do go home can you come back? Are you gonna lose your visa to go to school?” It’s just horrible. We count on the input of… you know, the whole world looks to this country for innovation you know for so many things and for them to be clipping that off at the knees it’s just insane. So I think, you know, I’m worried that things like being able to adopt children—gay couples being able to adopt children—might be something that could get on the [chopping] block soon. He might try to get in on the marriage thing again. Although I don’t think the Supreme Court will let him. But, if he stays in for a while, is really gonna get a chance to change the Supreme Court. So who knows? It’s kinda down the road there but it is something that most gay people I know have at least gone, “I’m a little worried.” So who knows, I mean that’s something. In Roanoke though, we’re lucky, it’s a really caring town, there are places to go. I had people come into the shop from time to time. Young people for the most part who would say, “I’m new. I’ve just moved here. I’m going to school here. Where can I meet gay people?” And there’s a Diversity Center, there’s a church, there’s a bar. There’s a lot of places in Roanoke. I think we’re very lucky here to have such a free-thinking and also active community with a lot of values that I share. 1:12:34 SP: Do you find that there is a lot of discrimination in businesses at all against gay people? 1:12:41 MB: I don’t know. I have never run into it, but a lot of people are afraid of me, because I say what’s on my mind and I have a really loud voice. You know, there may be. Discrimination is one of those things that can happen and you have to decide if you are being discriminated against, how much you're going to accept. You can accept more discrimination than you should if you duck your head and don't stand up for yourself. Discrimination feeds on itself, but not everybody is as noisy as I am. I mean not everybody is not shy like I am. But no, I don’t think actively. But who knows? Two Indian men just got killed in Kansas because some guy thought they were Arabian. He shot them at a bar and said, “Get out of my country!” He killed them, and injured another guy who tried to stop him. There were two gay men who were accosted in Key 22 �West this past week or so by a guy who said, “Trumps in now. We don’t have to have you around.” So if that kind of thing is happening… who knows where we’re gonna go. We all might have to work harder at being active. I’ve been not very active for years cause I haven't had anything to fight for. I have a feeling there’s gonna be some fights in the next while and I would be in the line for the fight, you know, and making sure that the right things get done. So we’ll see. A non-activist and a non-joiner like me might just have to suck it up and join. 1:14:41 SP: Do you think this might affect the atmosphere of places like The Park or is Corned Beef still around? 1:14:48 MB: Corned Beef is still around. Oh yeah, it’s the sort of young people’s gathering place downtown. It’s very big, it has a lot of different rooms. It’s very popular. Something of a meat market, I’m told. So yeah, I mean, I don’t think there’s gonna be… I hope there’s not ever going to be a time when you can’t go downtown and go into any restaurant or any shop, but who knows? Times are strange. 1:15:30 SP: So how would you say that your relationship with your parents worked out to this point, you said you still weren’t “out” to your dad? 1:15:37 MB: Oh, I am out to my dad. I came out to my dad many years ago and he had a problem with it initially, but he actually went to a conference for ministers, Christian church ministers, many years ago and spoke up for gay people and spoke up in my name and he loves my partner and so did my mother. That helped a lot. Alice is very acceptable. But, no. My relationship—my current state of my relationship with him—has something to do with him but the gay thing hasn’t been a problem in a really long time. When I have traveled to my hometown, I’ve gone to his church, people know me there. Alice is often with me. It’s a very small country church. I don’t know if they get it or not. I don’t make a big deal of it but I don’t make a non-deal of it. I don’t make up people anymore. I don’t make up male companions that I don’t have. I don’t have to lie now as much as I used to. And I just don’t. I got nothing to prove. 1:16:55 SP: So what inspired you to move CUPS the coffee shop to Roanoke [College], and were you hoping that it would be like the same social gathering place as the CUPS in Grandin has been? 1:17:05 MB: Well, the CUPS here you mean? I opened one here on somebody’s suggestion… Oh! The library and the head of the dining hall at that time. The head of the library at that time is now dead and the head of the dining hall is retired but they wanted a coffee shop and they had gone to Mill Mountain Coffee and Tea and said, “Would you open up a coffee shop in the library?” And Mill Mountain Coffee and Tea said “no” for economic reasons. They just decided it wasn’t 23 �really viable. So they eventually came to me and they came in my coffee shop one day and said, “Can we talk you about this idea?” And I was all for it and they made it economically viable by the fact that they own the coffee shop. The college and the library own the coffee shop and all the equipment. The only thing that I was paying for was the person who ran it. And of course we stocked it and we took all the money home and didn’t pay any rent. I don’t know if they pay rent now but I didn’t when I had it. So… I wouldn’t have thought of it on my own but they wanted a coffee shop because first of all I think it was getting to be kind of a stylish thing for colleges to have a coffee shop in the library and the reason they chose the library is… Google had made the library less of a destination and the library still needs to be a destination. For a lot of colleges they were losing bodies in the library cause there was no reason for kids to come in. Certainly wouldn’t come in if they couldn’t eat and drink and play their music or whatever. So they made this library so you could eat and drink and then they put a place in where you could eat and drink there. The guy who was running this library when I first got involved was very much about, “Yeah if we don’t make this a place where they can be comfortable in and hang out while they're working, then they won’t come.” So he did make it a place to hang out and that’s how the coffee shop here got started. 1:19:25 SP: In closing, do you think there’s anything that we missed, anything that’s important to your life that you’ve seen change lately? 1:19:30 MB: No, I’m fairly old and set in my ways. I don’t think there’s any…. I think there might be changes coming but no, I’m good right now. 1:19:46 SP: Do you feel like you were a resource to LGBTQ kids on campus and was it very accepting when you moved here or was that a more recent change...? 1:19:56 MB: Here at, here? 1:19:58 SP: At Roanoke and at the Roanoke College campus specifically? 1:20:03 MB: I didn’t have very much of a relationship [here]. The person who I hired to run the thing here was Sean Poff and he’s still here. If there’s anybody who has a relationship with this college and with the students—gay, straight, whatever; he’s straight—it would be Sean. I was not a personality here. I was very big part of the personality-driven shop on Grandin Road but I really was not a personality here. I mean, you know, I’ve worked with administration but I didn’t come here and I didn’t work here, so no. I don’t think I had any kind of effect on Roanoke at all but I mean Sean knows not to piss around with the clientele. And if a gay group wanted to meet or 24 �whatever that wouldn't be a problem here at all. But no, I didn’t have that kind of relationship here. I was just for making money. 1:21:02 SP: Thank you so much for coming out… 1:21:04 MB: Thank you. 1:21:05 SP: ...to do an interview with us. I really appreciate it. 1:21:07 MB: You’re welcome. Glad to do. [THE END] 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Michelle Bennett Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Michelle Bennett Interviewer: Sarah Sinoski, Brandon Croci Interviewee: Michelle Bennett Date: 27 February 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 1:21:14 Transcription prepared by: unknown Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 27 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michelle Bennett, Sarah Sinoski, Brandon Croci Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BennettMichelle https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3436/Caldwell_Linny.MP3 c0c2946e0f9b34ff9890cd163df7c4a4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3436/Caldwell_Linny.1.pdf 4d0fca4fe0409e0b5259a23e60e785f0 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project     Oral  History  Initiative   Interview  with  Linny  Caldwell   February  23,  2017   Interviewer:  Megan  O’Neil     Interviewee:  Linny  Caldwell   Sound  Check:  Brian  Fersini   Date:  February  23,  2017   Location:  Roanoke  College  Fintel  Library,  220  High  Street,  Salem,  Virginia     Transcribed  by:  Bridget  Reardon  &  Hannah  Listopad       Duration:  66:47   0:00  =  growing  up  in  Virginia  in  the  1950s  and  1960s;  defining  The  South     2:02  =  graduating  from  high  school  and  attending  Radford  College,  then  Old   Dominion  University  (1970s)   2:55  =  high  school  activism  (late  1960s  -­‐  early  1970s);  involvement  in  anti-­‐war   movement,  Christian  youth  group;  falling  in  love  with  a  woman   7:50  =  reflections  on  childhood  trauma;  the  absence  of  memories   9:40  =  choosing  between  religion  and  sexuality   11:43  =  post  graduate  life  in  the  Tidewater  (late  1970s)   13:40  =  teaching  at  several  private  Christian  schools;  in  Tidewater,  then  in  Roanoke   in  the  late  1970s  /  early  1980s;  imagining  motherhood   16:35  =  On  not  being  “out”  to  family  and  friends;  dealing  with  heartbreak  in   isolation     19:12  =  missionary  work  in  Japan;  stopping  off  in  Southern  California  in  1984   22:29  =  discovering  a  gay  community  in  Southern  California;  getting  involved  with   ex-­‐gay  ministries;  turning  away  from  God   28:45  =  coming  back  to  Roanoke  (1990);  involvement  in  First  Friday   30:54  =  career  in  social  work   34:14  =  Fostering  children;  adopting  children  (1996);  defining  family   39:13  =  Discovering  the  Unitarian  Universalist  Church  of  Roanoke  (1990s),  and  then   the  Metropolitan  Community  Church  of  the  Blue  Ridge  (2000s)   42:10  =  MCC  vs.  UU;  becoming  a  leader  at  MCC   44:45  =  political  awakening  after  the  election  of  Obama  (2008)   47:04  =  Roanoke  Diversity  Center;  experiences  as  a  camp  counselor  at  Diversity   Camp  (2016)   50:58  =  Native  American  religious  practices;  Two-­‐Spirit  people   54:56  =  Radical  Faeries   01:01:05  =  Feelings  of  Sex  Positivity   01:05:07  =  Closing  Remarks       1   �0:00   MO:  My  name  is  Megan  O’Neil  and  I  am  here  with  Linny  Caldwell  in  Fintel  Library  in   Salem,  Virginia.  It  is  5PM  on  Thursday  February  23rd,  2017.  So,  let’s  start  from  the   beginning.  Can  you  tell  us  some  about  your  childhood  or  where  you  went  to  school? 0:16   LC:  Sure.  I  grew  up  in  Blacksburg,  Virginia,  and  went  to  school  at  Blacksburg  High   School.  It  was  back  in  the  day  where  we  basically  went  from  elementary  right  to   high  school.  So  I  was  in  high  school  in  the  [19]70s  in  Blacksburg.   0:37   MO:  So,  do  you  feel  like  growing  up  in  the  South  really  impacted  you  as  a  person?   Impacted  your  development?  Do  you  consider  Virginia  the  South?     0:45   LC:  That’s  a  good  question.  I  guess  I  do  consider  it  the  South.  Perhaps  not  the  Deep   South.  It’s  definitely  not  Alabama,  Mississippi,  but  it’s  still  not  the  North.  I  guess  I   consider  Virginia  part  of  the  Bible  Belt.  So,  in  that  sense  it’s  definitely  the  South.  I   guess  I  don’t  know  whether  it’s  growing  up  in  Virginia—you  know,  that’s  the  only   place  I  grew  up  so  I  don’t  have  anything  to  compare  it  with—if  it  was  that  or  if  it  was   the  era  in  which  I  grew  up.  I  was  born  in  the  [19]50s  and  so  I  think  at  that  time  in   our  country  there  was  a  bit  more  homogeneous  culture  I  think  throughout  the   country  and  I  was  definitely  raised  in  a  culture  that  was  Southern  as  far  as   politeness  and  rules  and  manners  and  stuff  like  that,  but  again,  I  don’t  know  if  that   was  so  much  the  location  as  [it  was]  the  time.       1:57   MO:  So  did  you  stay  in  Virginia  after  high  school  or  did  you  go  out  of  Virginia  for   your  higher  ed[ucation]?     2:02   LC:  Yeah,  I  graduated  from  Blacksburg  and  I  didn’t  want  to  go  to  Virginia  Tech  just   because  I  already  had  a  lot  of  association  with  Tech,  actually,  which  I’d  like  to  talk   about  that,  but  we’ll  see  how  we  spiral  back  to  that.  I  went  to  Radford  and  at  the   time  it  was  Radford  College,  which  is  now  Radford  University.  I  was  there  for  two   years  and  after  I  left  that  next  year  is  when  Radford  went  co-­‐ed.  So  when  I  was  there   Radford  was  an  all  girls  school.  So  I  was  at  Radford  College  for  two  years  and  then  I   transferred  to  Old  Dominion  University,  which  is  in  Tidewater  in  Northern  Virginia   and  graduated  college  there.     2:49   MO:  So  why  did  you  decide  to  transfer?  Was  it  a  two-­‐year  program  or  did  you   transfer  for…?     2:55     2   �LC:  Yeah,  that’s  a  good  question.  Let  me  see  where  to  go  with  that.  In  college…  It’s   hard  to  know  how  to  balance  both  of  these  pieces  of  my  life.  I  fell  in  love  with  a   woman.  This  was  in  the  early  [19]70s,  again  in  Radford.  And  at  that  time  we  didn’t   even  really  know  that  there  were  other  women  like  us.  We  felt  very  much  isolated.  It   was  sort  of  a[n]  out  of  the  blue  kind  of  experience  of  just  falling  in  love.  We  were   roommates  there  for  those  two  years  and  then  she  was  actually  from  the  Tidewater   area.  To  tell  you  the  truth  I’m  not  exactly  sure  what  made  us  think  about  moving  but   we  decided  to  move  back  to  where  she  was  from  [and]  live  in  an  apartment.  We   both  finished  then  at  Old  Dominion.  So  that  was  the  reason  we  left.  That  whole   experience  is  definitely  a  big  part  of  my  story.  We  had  mentioned  earlier  off  of  the   tape  that  a  big  thread  that  runs  through  my  story  is  the  intersection  between   sexuality  and  spirituality.  So  I’ll  go  back  a  little  bit  to  my  high  school  experiences.  I   became  involved  through  some  older  students—older  friends  who  were  a  part  of   what  was  going  on,  and  again  this  was  in  the  late  ‘60s  and  there  was  a  lot  of  the  anti-­‐ war  movement  happening  at  Virginia  Tech,  and  somehow  I  kind  of  fell  into  all  of   that  with  these  older  students  and  loved  it  at  that  point.  So  I  had  a  bit  of  a  taste  of   the  hippie  movement  and  the  counterculture  while  I  was  still  in  high  school  as  a  part   of  Virginia  Tech.  Then,  kind  of  right  on  top  of  that,  there  were  a  bunch  of  Virginia   Tech  students  who  started  reaching  out  to  Blacksburg  High  School  and  formed  this   Christian  Youth  Group  and  again  I  kind  of  fell  into  that.  My  childhood  didn’t  involve   really  any  religious  experience.  We  went  to  church  on  holidays  pretty  much.  You   know,  Easter,  Christmas,  that  kind  of  thing.  There  was  not  a  consistent  involvement   in  a  church.  My  parents  were  not  necessarily  religious.  But  I  fell  into  this  whole  Jesus   movement  thing  as  a  high  school  student  at  Virginia  Tech.  It  was,  as  I’ve  looked  back   on  it  now  with  some  years  of  hindsight,  I  realize  that  it  was  not  just  a  religious   experience  but  it  was  a  social  experience  as  well.  For  me  it  was  trying  to  find  a  place   where  I  belonged,  where  I  felt  connected,  where  I  had  community,  where  I  had   family,  and  I  think  that  that’s  also  part  of  what  I  was  looking  for  in  the  whole  hippie   movement  business  although  part  of  the  hippie  movement  for  me  involved  a  sense   of  rebellion.  I  had  a  lot  of  anger  and  rebellion  that  I  didn’t  really  understand.  Again,  a   lot  of  this  is  coming  inside  as  I’ve  looked  back.  I  grew  up  an  only  child.  Both  my   parents  are  alcoholics.  Again,  I  grew  up  in  that,  and  so  it  just  felt  natural,  it  was  all  I   knew,  but  it  affected  me.  It  certainly  impacted  my  development,  my  sense  of   security,  and  I  had  a  lot  of  anger  toward  my  parents  that  I  thought  was  just  cultural   rebellion  but  now  I  look  back  and  can  see  some  of  the  psychological,  sociological   basis  of  some  of  that.  So  here  I  am  in  college  feeling  finally  like  I’ve  found  a  family,   I’ve  connected.  There’s  this  huge  community  that  I’m  a  part  of  and  then  suddenly  I   fall  in  love  with  a  woman.  Which  at  that  point  set  me  personally  on  somewhat  of  a   schizophrenic  journey,  I  think,  for  the  rest  of  my  life  or  at  least  a  long  period  of  my   life  where  I  was  trying  to  make  sense  between,  like  I  said,  sexuality  and  spirituality.   So  that’s  how  I  got  to  Tidewater,  that  was  all  part  of  me  moving  in  with  my   girlfriend.       7:50   MO:  Okay,  so  I  just  want  to  go  back  to  clarify  a  little  bit.  So  when  you  were  in  high   school  and  you  joined  into  the  hippie  movement  and  this  religious  community,  did     3   �you  feel  like  you  were  struggling  to  find  community  before  that?  Or  was  that  just   when  you  really  found  your  niche?     8:05   LC:  Good  question.  That’s  interesting.  I  don’t  think  I’ve  thought  about  it.  I  don’t   really  recall  having  many  memories  up  until  that  time  in  my  life.  It  feels  like  it  was   mostly  a  blank  slate,  and  that’s  another  piece  of  my  development.  Which  again,   years  of  therapy,  we’re  talking  a  lot  of  money  has  gone  into  therapy  through  my   years,  and  it  feels  like  my  life  began  in  high  school  when  I  had  those  connections  and   those  relationships  which  makes  it  even  more  meaningful  and  significant  that  I  felt   outcast,  that  I  felt  rejected  and  not  accepted  for  who  I  was  as  a  lesbian  by  this   Christian  community  that  I  had  begun  to  embrace.  So  I  don’t  know  that  I  was   actually  searching  or  that  I  was  aware  that  anything  was  missing.  I  feel  like  that  up   until  that  point  I  was  just  putting  one  foot  in  front  of  the  other  and  just  very  numbly   living  life.  I  think  I  was  pretty  numb.       9:23   MO:  So  when  you  did  fall  in  love  with  this  woman  in  college,  did  you  feel  like  you   struggled  with  the  religious…  and  did  you  maintain  your  connections  with  this   hippie  community  through  college  as  well?  As  well  as  the  Christian  community?     9:40   LC:  Yeah,  the  hippie  community  stuff  kind  of  faded  off  and  was  replaced  by  the  Jesus   movement.  And  that’s  a  whole  sociological  period  of  time  in  our  history  which  is  an   interesting  study  in  and  of  itself.  You  know,  the  ‘60s,  the  ‘70s  were  an  amazing  time,   I  think,  in  the  history  of  the  Christian  church  because  the  Jesus  movement  was  a   point  in  time  where  I  think  the  church  caught  on  fire.  You  know,  it  was  phenomenal   for  me  and  again  I’ve  lived  a  few  years  and  I’ve  been  in  a  lot  of  different  churches   since  then  and  I  feel  like  the  life  that  I  experienced  in  those  days  was  closer  to  what  I   feel  like  the  Bible  described  Jesus  and  his  experience  and  walking  with  people  in  the   first  century.  So,  that  didn’t  fade  away.  That’s  what  I’m  saying,  is  that  it  was  so   important  to  me.  I  was  telling  someone  the  other  day,  the  dilemma  that  I  found   myself  in  was  feeling  like  I  had  to  choose  between  the  two  people  that  I  love  the   most  on  this  Earth,  and  that  was  Nancy  and  Jesus.  And  I,  for  whatever  reason,   cultural,  societal,  my  own  stuff,  whatever  it  was,  I  didn’t  feel  like  it  was  okay.  I  didn’t   have  permission  to  love  both.  So  for  many  years  it  was  that  struggle  of  loving  one  or   the  other.  So  I  tended  to  immerse  myself  either  in  the  Christian  world  and  deny  my   sexuality  or  kick  God  to  the  curb  and  not  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  religion   and  then  express  myself  as  a  feminist,  as  a  lesbian,  but  not  until  much  later  in  life  did   I  figure  out  how  to  balance  those  two.       11:43   MO:  So  what  did  your  life  look  like  after  graduation?  Did  you  continue  your  life  with   Nancy  for  a  long  period  of  time?  What  did  you  do  after  college?     11:54     4   �LC:  Unfortunately,  Nancy  and  I  did  not  continue  a  long-­‐term  relationship,  again,   because  of  that  conflict.  I  was  much  more  into  the  religious  part  of  life  than  she  was   and  I  think  eventually  it  just  became  a  stress  on  our  relationship  that  I  kept  dealing   with  guilt.    I  felt  very  guilty  about  loving  her.  Again,  it  was  this  off  and  on,  “I  love  you   but  I  can’t  love  you.  I  love  you  but  I  can’t  love  you.”  And  she  finally  had  an  affair,   which  at  the  time  devastated  me,  absolutely  devastated  me,  so  that  ended  our   relationship.  We  were  living  in  an  apartment  together,  so  we  moved  out.  I  continued   in  the  Tidewater  area  for  a  few  years.  I  did  various  sundry  things  after  I  graduated.  I   graduated  with  a  degree  in  Psychology,  which  at  that  point  in  time  doesn’t  really   equip  you  to  do  a  whole  lot.  But  this  was  1976,  I  guess,  that  I  finished  at  Old   Dominion  and  so  I  stayed.  I’ve  always  loved  children.  I’ve  always  been  very  involved   with  kids,  even  in  high  school,  babysitting  in  the  summers,  you  know,  in  people’s   homes  keeping  lots  of  kids,  teaching  vacation  bible  school,  those  kinds  of  things.  So   I’ve  always  had  this  affinity  toward  children.  I  think  I  did  that  for  a  few  years  and   then  I  actually  started  teaching  in  Christian  schools.  So  that  was  the  next  journey,   the  next  step  of  my  life  was  teaching.         13:40   MO:  So  were  you  teaching  religious  teachings  or  was  it  just  the  typical  public  school   like  math,  reading,  that  kind  of  thing?     13:49   LC:  It  was  what’s  called  Christian  Schools.  So  it  was  small,  private,  Christian  schools   that  I’ve  taught  in,  I  guess  maybe  three  different  [schools].  The  first  was  down  there   in  the  Tidewater  area  and  again  it  was  a  church-­‐sponsored  school  so  I  think  we   had…  This  is  making  me  remember  many  many  years  ago.  I  don’t  think...  I’m  really   trying  to  remember  how  young…  you  know,  if  there  were  kindergarteners?  I  know  I   taught  5th,  6th,  and  7th  [grades]  which  was  an  interesting  thing  because  it  was  all   three  of  those  grades.  But  again  it  was  a  very  small  school.  I  probably  had  anywhere   from  18  to  20  students  in  those  three  grades.  At  that  time  it  was  a  curriculum  that   was  designed  where  students  were  doing  their  own  individual  thing.  It  was  very   self-­‐paced  and  I  did  a  lot  of  just  monitoring.  So  that  was  that  first  experience.  Then  I   ended  up  moving  back  to  the  Roanoke  area  where  my  parents  are.  Again,  my   parents  were  still  in  Blacksburg  at  that  point,  but  I  moved  to  Roanoke.  So  that  was   my  first  experience  with  Roanoke.  In  the  late  ‘70s,  early  ‘80s,  I  was  teaching  at  a   Christian  school  here  in  Roanoke.  Again,  another  small  Christian  school,  part  of  a   church,  and  I  taught  fifth  grade  there.  And  it  was  teaching  everything,  all  of  the   subjects.       15:24   MO:  So  you  really  liked  kids  before  this.  Did  you  think  that  was  a  really  fulfilling  part   of  your  life?  Did  you  really  enjoy  teaching?       15:33   LC:  Kids  have  always  been  a  super  fulfilling  part  of  my  life.  I’ve  always  wanted  to  be   a  mother.  I’ve  always  had  a  very  strong  nurturing,  caring  part  of  me.  Which  again  I     5   �think  is  a  piece  of  the  conflict  that  was  set  up  for  me  in  terms  of  who  I  was  as  a   sexual  person.  Because  in  my  mind,  again,  whether  the  culture  actually  said  this  to   me  or  whether  it  was  how  I  interpreted  it,  at  that  point  in  time  in  the  ‘70s  and  the   ‘80s  it  was  my  belief  that  to  be  a  mother  I  had  to  have  a  husband.  So  it  was  this   packaged  deal  of  the  white  picket  fence,  the  husband,  the  family,  the  children.  To   even  going  outside  the  realm  of  that  at  that  time  was  not  part  of  my  thinking.       16:26   MO:  So  you  got  that  fulfillment  from  children  through…       16:33   LC:  Through  teaching  at  that  point.     16:35   MO:  So  when  you  moved,  just  thinking  about  this,  when  you  moved  to  Tidewater   with  Nancy  had  you  been  “out”  to  your  parents  about  your  relationship  with  Nancy   or  was  that  something  that  hadn’t  been…     16:47   LC:  I  was  not  really  out  to  anybody.  It’s  kind  of  hard  to  be  out  to  other  people  when   you’re  not  really  out  to  yourself.  So  the  answer  to  that  is  no.  Although  it’s   interesting,  years  and  years  later  after  my  father  had  died,  I  had  this  conversation   with  my  mother—coming  out  to  her—and  she  looks  at  me  like  “This  is  news?”  So   even  when  Nancy  and  I  were  together  my  mom  knew  that  we  were  more  than  just   roommates.  That  we  were  more  than  just  friends.  But  the  culture  didn’t  know  that   and  society  didn’t  know  that  and  this  circle  of  Christian  friends  that  my  family  had   become  did  not  know  that.  Which  made  that  break  up  with  Nancy  even  more   devastating  for  me  because  in  the  eyes  of  everybody  else  “What’s  the  big  deal?  Your   roommate  just  moved  out.  Why  is  that  so  significant?”  No  one  had  any  idea  that  this   is  a  woman  I  had  lived  with  for  over  three  years,  that  I  was  madly  in  love  with,  and  I   didn’t  feel  the  freedom.  Not  out  to  anybody.       17:57   MO:  So  when  you  got  home  did  you  feel  like  you  found  that  community  again?  That   religious  community  to  immerse  yourself  in  to  deal  with  that  heartbreak?  Or  how   did  you  cope  with  the  [heartbreak]  for  a  while?     18:10     LC:  That’s  a  good  question  of  how  I  coped  with  the  heartbreak.  I  coped  with  the   heartbreak  by  adding  a  whole  lot  more  salt  to  the  Atlantic  Ocean.  We  lived  very   close  to  the  ocean  so  I  could  actually  walk.  And  I  did.  I  walked  up  and  down  the   beach  probably  every  night  just  crying  my  eyes  out,  just  bawling,  but  again  feeling   very  isolated  and  very  alone.  There  was  no  one  that  I  could  share  that  pain  or  that   grief  or  that  loss  with.  I  don’t  think  that  I  was  sharing  it  with  God  either.  I  think  that   because  I  felt  so  guilty  and  so  ashamed  of  loving  Nancy  that  my  whole  relationship     6   �with  God  in  that  grieving  was  just,  “I’m  such  a  horrible  person.  Forgive  me  for  this.”   So  it  wasn’t  even  a  healthy  grieving  in  my  relationship  with  God  if  that  makes  sense.       19:12   MO:  So,  from  teaching  in  Roanoke,  where  do  we  go  from  here?  What  is  the  next  step   that  you  took?       19:21   LC:  Next  step  was—and  actually  this  step  began  when  I  was  in  Virginia  Beach.  Nancy   and  I  had  become  a  part  of  a  church  in  Virginia  Beach  that  was  a  very  missions-­‐ oriented  church.  And  I  don’t  know  if  that  means  anything  to  you  in  terms  of  just  the   whole  Christian  world,  but  this  was  a  church  that  a  lot  of  people  would  go  out  from   to  share  about  the  love  of  Jesus  in  other  countries  and  suddenly  I  felt  like  that’s  what   I  wanted  to  do.  So  I  sort  of  started  down  that  path  of  pursuing  “Where  will  I  go?”  It   brings  me  back  to  those  many  many  many  months  that  I  would  walk  along  the  beach   and  cry.  I  think  I  came  to  a  decision  whether  it  was  conscious  or  not  that  I  would  just   give  my  life  to  God  for  the  rest  of  my  life  and  I  would  not  be  a  sexual  being.  You   know,  if  I  couldn’t  be  who  I  was  I  just  wouldn’t  be  sexual.  So  I  just  was  devoted  to   [I’m]  totally  gonna  share  the  love  of  Jesus  with  the  whole  world.  What  happened  is  I   got  involved  with  this  group  and  I  ended  up  going  to  Japan.  That  was  my  next  step   was:  I’m  heading  overseas  for  the  rest  of  my  life  and  I  look  back  on  it  now  and  I  say,   “Just  how  far  can  you  run  from  your  sexuality?”  Well,  I  tried  running  to  Japan.  I  was   there  for  three  months.  That  was  the  intention  of  that  first  experience;  it  was  just  a   summer  thing.  So  then  I  came  back  to  Roanoke  to  this  church  where  I  was  teaching   and  where  that  church  was  totally  in  favor  of  me  being  a  missionary,  going  to  live   [and]  spend  the  rest  of  my  life  in  Japan  so  that  was  the  trajectory  that  I  was  on.  The   interesting  thing  is  that,  and  I  so  believe  that  this  was  God,  that  there  was  a  plan  for   me  to  find  myself,  to  really  accept  who  I  am  as  a  queer  person.  I  didn’t  use  that  term   then,  but  the  term  that  I  use  now  in  identifying  myself  is  “queer.”  And  so  part  of  my   “Okay,  I’ve  spent  a  summer  in  Japan.  That’s  what  I’m  going  to  do  for  the  rest  of  my   life,”  involved  this  little  stop  along  the  way  in  Southern  California.  Because  there   was  a  group  there,  a  place  where  I  could  learn  all  about  the  mission  field  and  where   missionaries  came  back  when  they  were  on  furlough,  things  like  that.  In  Southern   California  there’s  a  large  Japanese  population.  I  could  learn  the  culture.  I  could  learn   the  language,  so  that’s  what  I  did.  I  headed  out  in  1984  to  Southern  California.   Everything  I  owned  and  my  little  dog  was  packed  in  my  Volkswagen  Bug  and  off  we   went,  cross-­‐country.  Now,  little  did  I  know  how  that  was  going  to  change  my  life.  So,     I’ll  stop  and  you  can  ask  questions.     22:21   MO:  What  turn  of  events  came  to  that?  Why  aren’t  you  still  in  Japan,  kind  of  thing?   What  happened  in  Southern  California?     22:29   LC:  I  got  stuck.  I  landed  in  Southern  California  in  the  ‘80s  and  there  are  a  few  gay   people  in  Southern  California,  just  a  few!  And  by  this  date  and  time,  they  were  a  bit     7   �more  “out”  than  the  gay  people  who  were  around  me  here  in  Southwest  Virginia.   You  know,  part  of  what  I  want  to  talk  about  and  I  know  somewhat  the  thrust  of  this   is  like,  what  it  was  like  in  Roanoke.  I  talked  with  Dr.  Rosenthal  about  the  fact  that  I   don’t  really  have  a  whole  lot  of  experience  with  that.  I  do  a  little  bit,  and  we’ll  come   back  to  that,  but  at  this  point  my  experience  in  Southern  California  was  my  eye   opening  experience  to  the  gay  world,  to  the  fact  that  there  were  gay  and  lesbian   people  who  were  accepting  of  themselves  and  very  out  and  very  open.  I  didn’t   expect  that.  I  had  no  idea  that  that  was  why  God  was  taking  me  to  California  but   that’s  why  God  was  taking  me  to  California.  So  rather  than  staying  however  long  I   was  going  to  stay  there  and  then  heading  on  to  Japan  I  never  left  California.  I  ended   up  staying  there  for  about  ten  years.       23:38   MO:  So  when  you  got  to  California,  did  you  feel  like  the  queer  culture,  like  being   “out”  and  being  comfortably  out,  do  you  think  that  was  just  a  stepping  stone  to   integrating  your  sexuality  and  religiosity?  Like,  did  you  have  to  be  around  people   that  being  out  was  culturally  acceptable?     23:58   LC:  Eventually,  and  it  was  perhaps  a  stepping  stone,  but  it  was  a  far  distant  stepping   stone  from  the  final  ultimate  stepping  stone,  because  what  California  gave  me  was   an  experience  in  the  culture  of  the  ex-­‐gay  ministries.  Again,  I  don’t  know  if  that  term   means  anything  to  you  but  there  are  still  some  of  these  that  exist  now  and   unfortunately  so.  Back  in  the  ‘70s  and  ‘80s,  particularly  before  the  American   Psychological  Association  and  the  DSM  [Diagnostic  and  Statistical  Manual  of  Mental   Disorders]  had  actually  said  that  being  queer  was  not  a  disorder,  there  were  all   these  Christian  organizations  that  rose  up  to  say,  “You  can  be  healed.  God  can  save   you  from  being  gay.”  I  say  unfortunately,  I  fell  into  one  of  those.  Remembering,  for   me,  what  I  said  earlier  of  that  conflict  of  feeling  like  I  was  being  forced  to  choose   between  the  two  people  that  I  loved  the  most.  For  this  period  of  time  in  my  life,  a   large  period  when  I  first  got  to  California,  I  was  still  connected  with  this  Jesus   movement,  very  strong  culture  of  Christians,  and  so  the  people  that  I  met  were   people  who  were  saying,  “It’s  a  sin  to  be  gay,  and  God  can  heal  you.”  So  for  probably   two  years,  maybe  a  little  less,  I  was  involved  in  one  of  those  kinds  of  ministries.     25:44   MO:  What  led  you  to  leave  that  ministry  at  one  point?     25:48   LC:  I  finally  just  had  enough.  I  think  I  finally  reached  a  point  that  I  just  said,  “This  is   not  me.”  I  tried.  I  really  really  tried  hard  not  to  be  gay  and  it  just  wasn’t  working.   Thank  God  it  didn’t  work!  Finally,  I  just  had  had  enough.  And  unfortunately  that   meant  that  I  got  very  angry  at  God.  So  by  the  time  I  left  Southern  California  it  was   that  phase  of  my  life  where  I  kicked  God  to  the  curb.  I  was  over  it.  I  was  just  so  angry   and  frustrated  with  the  Christian  everything,  but  that  gave  me  permission  that     8   �allowed  me  to  then  explore  what  it  was  like  to  be  a  lesbian  and  what  it  was  like  to  be   in  the  gay  culture.  So  that’s  where  I  was  when  I  came  back  to  Virginia.     26:49   MO:  So  you  said  God  led  you  to  Southern  California  so  you  were  meant  to  have  that   period  of  time  in  your  life  where  you  didn’t  accept  God  or  you  denied  God  in  your   life?  So  that  was  a  learning  experience?     27:04   LC:  Great  question.  I  feel  very  strongly  that  God  has  had  a  hand  on  me  all  of  my  life   and  even  though  there  have  been  times  that  I  might  have  on  the  external  part  of  me   said,  “I  don’t  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  God.”  There’s  a  deep  deep  part  of  me   that  is  very  connected  to  the  spiritual.  I  have  come  to  the  place  in  my  life  currently   where  I  believe  there  are  all  kinds  of  names  of  God  but  that  God  is  God.  There  is   spirit.  So,  yes  to  that  question.  I  think  that  as  much  as  I  struggled  in  this  small  human   experience  of  making  sense  between  my  sexuality  and  my  spirituality  there  was  an   overarching  spirit  that  just  is  so  above  all  that  shit.  I  hope  that’s  okay  to  use  that   word  on  this  tape  because  that’s  what  it  is.  It’s  just  crazy  human  stuff  and  the  truth   is  so  far  above  that.  I  feel  very  strongly  that,  yes,  God  took  me  there.  And  that  even   when  I  said,  “I  don’t  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  Christianity,”  that  didn’t  hurt   God’s  feelings.  God  didn’t  go  anywhere.  God  was  perfectly  okay.  Now  I’m  back  to   where  I  am  at  this  point.  I  think  that  was  all  part  of  my  evolution,  I  think.  Just  kind  of   thinking  of  the  seasons  in  the  evolution  of  my  life  to  get  to  where  I  am  now.     28:45   MO:  So  you  came  back  to  Virginia  as  more  or  less  an  empowered  lesbian,  proud  to   be  who  you  are?     28:56   LC:  Kind  of.  I  was  getting  there.       28:58   MO:  So  where  did  you  go  from  there?     29:01   LC:  Then  I  landed  in  the  Roanoke  area  and  that’s  the  little  bit  of  taste  that  I  have  of   what  was  happening  here  in  Roanoke.  Again,  I  think  a  lot  had  been  happening  in   Roanoke  prior  to  that  point.  I  landed  back  here  in  the  early  ‘90s  and  at  that  point   found  a  group  of  women,  an  organization,  called  First  Fridays.  So  the  First  Fridays   was  a  group  of  lesbians,  most  of  them  were  from  the  Roanoke  area,  a  few  came  from   the  New  River  Valley,  or  Lynchburg  or  Bedford,  other  places,  but  the  core  were   people  who  lived  in  Roanoke  and  we  met  once  a  month.  The  first  Friday  of  every   month  so  that  was  my  first  real  experience  of  connecting,  again,  with  a  group.  I  just   thought  about  this,  how,  you  know,  the  theme  of  my  life,  like  I  said—and  I  think  this   stems  back  to  my  early  childhood  abuse,  neglect,  my  parents’  alcoholism,  all  of  those   kind  of  things—I  was  always  searching  for  that  place  to  belong,  for  that  family,  that     9   �community,  that  connection,  and  whether  it  was  the  hippie  movement,  whether  it   was  the  Jesus  movement,  whether  it  was  all  these  various  churches  that  I’ve  been  a   part  of,  at  this  point  in  the  early  ‘90s  it  was  this  lesbian  circle.  Along  with  that  I  was   also  somewhat  involved  with  a  woman’s  reading  group  that  was  happening  at   Virginia  Tech.  This  was  mostly  professors  and  students  from  Tech.  So  it  was  those   two  things  that,  yeah,  were  helping  me  to  find  out  about….  And  again,  it’s  kind  of   funny  to  say  that  I  began  to  really  explore  the  whole  gay  culture  back  here  in   Roanoke  when  I  had  just  lived  in  Southern  California  for  ten  years,  but  again  I  was   conflicted  when  I  was  in  California.       30:54   MO:  So  when  you  were  here  in  Roanoke  what  kind  of  work  were  you  doing?  What   kind  of  work  were  you  doing  with  First  Fridays?     30:59   LC:  Workwise,  I  was  teaching  again.  Oh  no!  That’s  not  true!  When  I  came  back  in  the   nineties,  okay…  part  of  what  I  did  in  Southern  California  is  get  a  Master’s  degree.  SO   I  had  my  undergraduate  degree  in  Psychology.  In  Southern  California  I  taught  in   Christian  schools  again  and  so  while  I  was  teaching  I  also  went  to  grad  school  in  the   evenings.  So  I  taught  during  the  day  and  went  to  grad  school  and  got  a  Master’s   Degree  in  Marriage  and    Family  and  Child  Therapy.  And  another  really  interesting   evolution  that  happened  when  I  was  in  Southern  California  was  that…  I  mentioned   to  you  the  whole  thing  of  how  I’ve  always  loved  kids  and  how  I’ve  always  wanted  to   be  a  mother.  I  had  a  significant  experience  that  I  think  is  important  in  my  evolution.   Like  I  said,  I’d  always  kind  of  in  my  mind  associated  that  to  be  a  mother  I  had  to  be  a   wife  and  so  I  was  still  going  down  that  road  and  I  was  dating  this  guy  in  my  graduate   program,  and  so  the  two  of  us  were  pretty  close.  You  know,  he  was  a  very  nice  guy   and  we  were  beginning  to  be  close.  No  sexual  relationship  at  that  point.  We  went  on   a  weekend  trip  to  San  Francisco  for  a  conference,  and  we  stopped  along  the  way  and   I  don’t  know  how  this  conversation  came  about  but  I’ll  never  forget  it:  we’re  just   kind  of  standing  there  at  this  bar  looking  over  the  ocean  and  he  says,  “You  know,  I   don’t  think  I  really  want  to  be  a  parent.  I  don’t  have  any  desire  to  have  children.”   Something  in  me  just  clicked  at  that  point.  And  I  said,  “that’s  it.  I’m  done.  I’m  done.  I   don’t  need  a  man  to  be  a  mother.  I  am  done.”  And  that  was  so  freeing.  That  was  so   exciting.  So,  by  the  time  I  got  back  to  Roanoke  these  little  thoughts,  this  stirring— and  again,  it’s  1990,  so  there  was  a  bit  of  a  role  model  out  there  that  you  don’t  have   to  have  a  husband  to  be  a  mother,  and  so  when  I  came  back  that  was  really  where  I   was  headed.  I  was  considering  what  will  I  do  with  my  career,  which  again,  was   psychology,  counseling,  therapy.  That’s  always  been  my  main  interest.  How  will  I   fulfill  this  desire  to  be  a  parent?  So  when  I  got  back  I  applied  at  various  places.   Ended  up  getting  a  job  with  an  agency  called  Connections.  It’s  a  specialized  foster   care  agency  and  I  worked  with  two  groups  of  people.  The  first  group  was  Southeast   Asian  refugees.  These  were  minors  who  had  come  from  Cambodia,  Laos,  and   Vietnam.  Which  is  interesting  because  it  takes  me  right  back  [full]  circle  to  my   interest  in  Southeast  Asia  and  ‘Nam  and  all  of  that.  At  the  same  time  I  also  started   working  with  children  in  foster  care  who  had  significant  emotional,  psychological     10   �issues.  So  that  is  what  I  was  doing  career-­‐wise.  And  I  did  that  for  about  seven  years   as  a  social  worker.       34:14   MO:  So,  since  you  had  gotten  in  your  mind  that  you  were  going  to  be  a  mother,  how   did  you  go  about  doing  that?  Did  you  look  into  adopting,  fostering  children,  because   it’s  what  you  are  going  into  professionally?     34:23   LC:  Bingo.  That’s  exactly.  And  again  I  think  this  is  all  that  path,  you  know,  that  I  feel   led  by  spirit.  After  about  seven  years  of  being  a  social  worker  I  just  kind  of  woke  up,   I  guess.  You  know,  it  feels  like  I  woke  up  one  day  but  I  know  it  had  been  coming.  And   I  marched  over  to  the  Department  of  Social  Services,  and  I  had  a  lot  of  relationships.   The  agency  that  I  worked  for  was  a  private  agency,  but  we  contracted  with  a  lot  of   the  local  departments.  They  would  send  us  their  kids.  So,  I  just  basically  made  an   appointment  with  the  director  and  said  “Here  I  am.  I  have  a  Masters  in  marriage  and   family  therapy.  I’ve  been  a  social  worker  for  seven  years.  I’d  like  to  be  a  foster   parent.”  But  I  want  to  be  a  foster  parent  that  provides  these  direct  services  to  these   very  needy,  challenged  children  because  what  was  happening,  and  what  still  often   happens,  is  children  come  into  foster  care  and  their  needs  are  so  intense  and  they   are  so  severe  they  become  assigned  to  this  separate  agency.  And  unfortunately,   sometimes  it’s  many  different  placements  and  moves  before  they  get  there.  My   personal  feeling  is  that  that’s  the  worst  thing  our  system  does  to  kids.  Kids  are   already  removed  one  time  from  their  parents.  They  don’t  need  to  have  multiple   losses,  and  changes,  and  moves  from  foster  family  to  foster  family.  So,  I  went  to   Roanoke  City  and  I  said  “Here  I  am.”  And  they  basically  accepted  me  and  said  “yeah,   we  will  make  you,”  and  I  was  basically  the  very  first  parent  with  Roanoke  City  that   was  a  specialized  foster  parent.     35:59   MO:  Did  you  being  a  lesbian  or  being  even  a  single  mom  affect  any  of  that?     36:04   LC:  Do  you  think  I  was  “out”  at  that  point,  Megan?  Okay,  alright  [laughter].  It’s  1990,   I’ve  gone  through  a  lot  of  my  personal  stuff,  but  my  sense  of  what  was  going  on  in   Roanoke,  even  at  that  time  in  First  Fridays,  is  that  there  were  still  plenty  of  us  who   were  very  closeted.  It  was  still  an  era  where  you  could  lose  your  job.  You  could  lose   a  lot  by  being  out.  So,  even  though  it  was  the  early  ‘90s,  it  wasn’t  the  kind  of  freedom   that  we  have  today.  So,  no,  I  was  not  marching  over  to  Social  Services  as  an  out   lesbian.  I  was  marching  over  there  as  a  qualified  person  to  do  this  job  and  I  was   marching  over  as  a  single  person.  So  the  fact  that  I  was  a  lesbian  didn’t  really  come   up.  It  wasn’t  an  issue  at  that  point.     36:53   MO:  Was  the  single  mother  an  issue  or  was  it  just  since  you  were  so  qualified,  that   was  less  of  an  issue?     11   �   36:59   LC:  Yeah,  that’s  interesting,  is  that  at  least  in  Roanoke,  for  quite  some  time,  they   have  been  very  open  about  approving  single  male  and  single  female  [parents].  Now,   obviously  I  think  there  are  more  women  who  are  single  parents,  but  Roanoke  City   was  open.  I  will  say  a  nice  plug  that  Roanoke  City  has  moved,  and  at  this  point  in   time,  they  approve  gay  and  lesbians  [as  parents],  as  well.  The  State  of  Virginia  does   not  allow  a  lesbian  couple  to  adopt,  or  a  gay  couple  to  adopt.  So,  if  I  were  in  a   relationship  and  wanting  to  adopt,  it  would  be  either  my  partner  or  myself.  I  don’t   know  exactly  how  that  has  changed  now  that  we  have  equality  and  there’s  marriage.   I’m  not  really  particularly  up  on  the  legality  of  that  piece.  But,  for  me,  I  became  a   single  foster  parent.     37:50   MO:  Was  your  goal  adoption  at  any  point?  Or  was  it  just  fostering?     37:54   LC:  Yeah.  You  know,  I’ve  always  always,  you  know,  ever  since  I  thought  about  being   a  parent,  been  very  open  to  adoption.  Always  thinking  “gosh,  there  are  children  out   there  who  need  families.  Why  not  be  that  family.”  My  intention  when  I  became  a   foster  parent  was  very  influenced  by  my  training,  and  my  background  as  a  marriage   and  family  therapist  is  in  systems  and  in  believing  that  children  have  those   connections  with  their  biological  family,  and  my  goal  was  to  support  that.  And   philosophically  I  still  really  do  believe  that,  but  again,  I  feel  that  God  had  other  plans   because  the  first  two  children  who  came  into  my  care  were  two  young  boys.  Scotty   was  four.  Carl  was  seven.  They  came  to  me  in  1996  and  they  are  still  my  children.   They  are  a  part  of  my  three  kids.  I  have  three  children.     38:55   MO:  So,  two  boys,  and  then  who  is  the  third?     38:56   LC:  I  have  a  daughter  who  is  20  now.     39:02   MO:  So,  foster  care,  working  as  a  social  worker  at  this  point…  So,  you  mentioned  you   weren’t  out  in  the  ‘90s,  is  that  a  fairly  new  thing?  Is  that  something…       39:12   LC:  …to  be  out?     39:13     MO:  Yeah.     39:13     12   �LC:  Yeah  probably  because,  again,  the  being  fully  out  comes  back  to  that  conflict  of   the  spiritual  and  the  sexual  being  integrated.  So,  what  I  described  earlier  is  that  for   me,  I  tended  to  deal  with  it  like  a  seesaw.  That  is  kind  of  my  visual  image,  that  I   could  be  a  lesbian  and  spirituality  wasn’t  a  part  of  my  life,  or  I  could  be  a  Jesus   follower  and  sexuality  was  not  a  part.  It  was  just  this  damn  seesaw  and  when  I  came   back  to  Virginia  from  California  I  was  in  that  phase  where  I  didn’t  want  to  have   anything  to  do  with  God,  and  that  lasted  for  a  while,  but  I  suddenly  felt  empty.  That   didn’t  fit.  That’s  not  me.  And  so  I  landed  at  the  Unitarian  church  which  for  me  was  a   good  bridge.  The  Unitarian  church  here  in  Roanoke  is  amazing  and  at  that  particular   time  the  pastor  was  Kirk  Ballin  and  he  was  so  amazingly  accepting.  So  yeah,  that   was  the  first  place  that  I  began  to  be  “out,”  was  at  the  Unitarian  church.    And  at  that   time,  the  Unitarian  church  was  undergoing  a  process  called  Becoming  a  Welcoming   Congregation  and  what  that  meant  was  that  they  would  be  welcoming  to  the  LGBTQ   community.  So  there  was  a  conference  that  they  had  somewhere  in  North  Carolina,   Durham  or  Chapel  Hill  or  somewhere,  and  I  remember  going  and  I  remember  it  was   the  very  first  time  I  remember  being  in  a  place  where  those  two  things  were   somewhat  integrated.  We  were  in  a  church  building.  I  think  that  is  just  where  we   happened  to  have  the  conference  and  we  were  singing  songs  that,  you  know,  could   have  been  considered  spiritual  or  not,  but  it  was  a  room  full  of  gay  and  lesbian   people  and  it  was  like  overwhelming  for  me  because  it  was  the  first  time,  like  I  said,   that  those  two  pieces  of  who  I  was  could  be  joined  in  the  same  place.  So  that  was  the   beginning  of  my  journey,  was  through  the  Unitarian  church.  And  then  you’re  aware   that  there  is  a  church  in  Roanoke  called  Metropolitan  Community  Church,  the  MCC.   And,  when  I  first  moved  to  Roanoke,  and  I  visited  it,  it  was  a  little  too  Jesus-­‐y  for  me.   You  know,  I  was  still  in  that  “pretty  mad  at  God”  [phase]  and  so  I  kind  of  had  a  push-­‐ pull  relationship  with  MCC  for  a  while,  but  maybe  ten  years  ago  or  so  I  started   pursuing  a  bit  of  a  relationship  with  MCC.     42:10   MO:  What  triggered  the  movement  to  MCC  from  the  Unitarian  Church?     42:16   LC:  That’s  a  good  question.  I  don’t  know.  I  had  my  children  when  I  was  at  the   Unitarian  church  because  in  my  experience  a  lot  of  times  becoming  a  parent   prompts  parents  to  want  some  sort  of  spiritual  education  for  their  children.  So  I   mean  I  did  want  my  children  to  have  something,  some  sort  of  experience  with  the   spiritual,  with  God,  and  so  they  were  a  part  of  the  Unitarian  church…  I  don’t  know.   You  know,  that’s  an  interesting  question.  I’m  not  really  remembering  exactly  what   that  shift  was  and  how  it  changed  except  that  I  guess  I  can  say,  and  again  looking  at   myself,  knowing  my  whole  history,  I’m  a  Jesus  follower.  That’s  the  reality  of  who  I   am.  It  just  took  me  a  very  long  time  to  be  able  to  own  that  at  the  same  time  that  I   own  my  sexual  identity.  So,  my  children  were  also  a  part  of  MCC,  you  know,  when   they  were  younger.     43:24     13   �MO:  So  what  has  you  experience  at  MCC  been  like,  cause  you  mentioned  that  it  was   very  Jesus-­‐like.  Was  it  different  by  the  time  you  moved?     43:32   LC:  No,  no.  It  wasn’t  different;  I  was.  I  have  been  a  part  of  the  MCC  only  since  we’ve   had  the  current  pastor  and  since  MCC  has  been  in  existence  here,  there  have  been   several  different  pastors.  So,  you  know,  again,  my  experience,  like  with  any  church,   is  that  church  is  very  flavored  by  who  the  pastor  is.  So,  I  can  only  speak  for   Metropolitan  Community  Church  of  the  Blue  Ridge  as  it  is  right  now,  with  Joe  Cobb   as  the  pastor.  In  my  mind,  Joe  is  an  amazing  person.  He  is  very  much  out  and  open   and  inclusive,  highly  regarded  and  respected  in  the  community,  very  involved  and   very  politically  active  as  well  as  enlightened  and  educated  about  all  of  these  things   that  we  discussed,  you  know,  the  sexuality  and  the  spirituality  being  integrated.  So,   my  experience  there  over  the  past  two  years  has  increased  and  deepened  to  the   point  that  now  I’m  not  only  a  member,  but  I’m  a  deacon,  I’m  very  involved,  very   much  a  part  of  the  leader[ship]…  a  leader  of  that  particular  church.       44:45   MO:  So,  just  thinking  about  political  involvement,  like  you  mentioned  Joe  Cobb  was   politically  active,  do  you  consider  yourself  politically  active?     45:02   LC:  Yeah.  You  touched  on  this  earlier  when  you  asked  about  First  Friday  and  I  kind   of  went  on.  My  experience  with  First  Fridays  was  not  that  it  was  a  political  activist   group.  The  reading  group—the  book  study  that  I  was  a  part  of  at  Virginia  Tech— was  a  bit  more  focused  on  political  activism  and  I  think  that  might  have  been  part  of   the  context  of  a  college  campus  and  university,  highly  educated  professional  people.   My  experience  with  First  Fridays  is  that  it  was  a  social  club.  It  was  primarily  social   activities  and  by  the  time  I  landed  here  in  the  early  ‘90s,  I  think  it  was  really  fading.   It  was  fizzling  out.  I  can’t  remember  exactly,  you  know,  how  long  I  was  involved  or,   you  know,  how  much  longer  First  Fridays  even  stuck  around,  but  my  sense  is  that  it   eventually  just  sort  of  dissolved.  And  so  there  was  less  political  involvement.  I  didn’t   see  myself  very  involved  politically  probably  until  Obama  ran  and  I  think  because  up   until  that  point  I  was  pretty  disillusioned  about  the  political  system  itself  and  I  woke   up.  I  was  very  excited  about  Obama  and  very  much  on  board,  and  very  much  proud   to  be  an  American  again  and  excited.  So,  my  political  activism  has  been  since  then   and  much  more  now  at  this  point.  Very  much  politically  active  and  strong  in  fighting   for  what  I  feel  is  social  justice  for  all  people,  for  all  minorities,  not  just  the  queer   community  but  for  everyone  that’s  really  in  jeopardy  of  losing  rights  at  this   particular  time  in  our  history.     47:07   MO:  I  completely  agree  with  you.  I  think  that’s  a  wonderful  thing.  So,  your  involved   with  the  [Roanoke]  Diversity  Center,  right?     47:13     14   �LC:  [Yes].     47:14   MO:  Is  that  tied  to  some  of  your  political  activities?     47:16   LC:  Perfectly  tied  to  that,  yeah.  The  Roanoke  Diversity  Center  just  happens  to  be   housed  in  the  Metropolitan  Community  Church  building.  There  is  not  a  connection.   So,  RDC  is  not  necessarily  a  spiritual  organization  but  it  is  an  amazing  place  of   support  and  safety,  again,  for  the  LGBT  community.  And  my  experience  has  been   varied.  I’ve  kind  of,  you  know,  dipped  my  toes  in  the  water  of  the  RDC  for  maybe  a   year  or  two,  but  most  recently,  within  the  past  year  of  my  life,  I’ve  felt  like  I’ve  dived   in  head  first,  and  that’s  because  of  getting  involved  with  the  Diversity  Camp.  Are  you   familiar  with  Diversity  Camp?  Diversity  Camp  is,  we’ve  had  three  camps,  and  it  came   about  because  some  of  the  people  at  the  Diversity  Center  have  had  experiences  of   camp,  primarily  church  camp,  but  again  camp  is  a  wonderful  experience.  I   personally  had  a  lot  of  camp  experience  growing  up.  I  would  go  to  church  camp   every  summer.  I  mentioned  that  our  family  was  not  particularly  religious,  but  for   some  reason  I  went  to  church  camp  and  I  loved  it.  I  don’t  know  that  I  associated  it   with  anything  spiritual,  but  it  was  fun.  You  know,  it’s  summer  church  camp.  So,  what   some  people  decided  at  RDC  is  to  create  that  for  the  gay  community.  So  like  I  said,   we’ve  had  three  summers.  Last  summer  was  my  first  time  to  be  involved  as  a   counselor.  So,  there  were  maybe  fifty  young  people,  anywhere  from,  we’ve  had  a   very  young  child,  so  there  was  like,  maybe,  a  six  year  old,  but  typically  they  were,   you  know,  kids  anywhere  from  twelve  to  twenty-­‐five  or  so.  I  think  [that]  is  the   typical  age  range  of  the  campers  and  then  for  every  couple  of  campers,  they  want  to   have  a  counselor.  Most  of  the  counselors  are  themselves  part  of  the  LGBT   community.  That  summer,  it’s  a  week-­‐long  experience,  an  overnight  camp,  so   everybody’s  staying  there  on  the  grounds.  That  experience  opened  me  up  to,  first  of   all,  this  generation,  which  again,  I  was  born  in  the  ‘50s  so  my  experience  is  very   different  than  the  experience  of  this  generation,  so  that  has  been  eye-­‐opening  and   educating  to  me.  I  have  had  to  learn  a  whole  new  language,  words  and  terms  that  I   have  no  idea  what  they  mean.  It’s  just  a  whole  new  language.  But  meeting  people,   young  people,  who  are  so  brave  and  so  clear  at  that  age  about  who  they  are.  Which,   again,  is  astounding  to  me.  You’ve  heard  my  story.  You’ve  heard  how  long  and,  you   know,  it  took  me  forever  to  come  to  a  place  of  being  sure  of  who  I  am  and  to  see   someone  who’s  17,  18,  19,  20  [years  old]  and  they  know  who  they  are.  Kudos.  I’m   just  so  excited  for  that  person  to  have  that  experience.  So,  going  to  camp  as  a   counselor  has  changed  me  much  more  than  I  think  anything  that  I  could  have   possibly  have  given  to  the  campers.       50:42   MO:  Wow,  that’s  awesome.  So,  you  mentioned  new  terms  and  everything,  have  you   had  any  experience  with  like  transgender  people  in  general?  I’m  sure  you  had   transgender  campers.       15   �50:58   LC:  Oh  definitely.  This  experience,  like  prior  to  Diversity  Camp,  not  really  very  much   understanding  at  all  about  transgender  issues,  but  I  would  say  that  that  particular   topic  is  the  one  that  has  exploded  the  most  for  me  because  I  have  met  very  many   people  who  are  transgender  and  again,  trying  to  understand  and  support  their   journey.  I  also  have  another  sphere  of  my  life.  Within  the  past  year,  I’ve  gotten   involved  with  a  couple  of  things  that  have  been  really  the  impetus  for  changing  me   personally.  One  is  a  Native  American  tradition  called  Naraya  and  that  is  a  sacred   celebration  and  dance  that  is  the  Shoshone,  it’s  from  the  Shoshone  culture,  the   Shoshone  tribe,  and  has  been  brought  back  to  life.  It’s  always  been  a  part,  but  almost   died  out  like  from  maybe  the  ‘60s  until  just  maybe  the  ‘80s.  And  so,  I’ve  been  really   privileged  to  be  a  part  of  that,  and  that  has  been  an  experience  that  I  have  gone   through  once,  and  I’ll  do  it  again.  It’s  an  annual  kind  of  thing.  These  dances  happen   throughout  the  country.  The  primary  purpose  is  to  dance  for  peace,  to  dance  for  our   country,  our  culture,  our  world,  and  to  dance  with  individual  intentions,  but  to  know   that  that’s  then  going  to  influence  and  affect  the  world  in  which  we  live.  And  the   amazing  and  wonderful  thing  about  Naraya  is  that  many  of  the  people  who   participate  are  two-­‐spirited,  which  in  Native  culture,  historically—you  are  not  going   to  read  this  in  our  American  history  books—but  historically,  the  truth  is  that  most   Native  cultures  honored  and  respected  two-­‐spirited  people.  Do  you  know  what  I’m   talking  about  if  I  use  the  term  two-­‐spirited?       53:14   MO:  From  my  understanding,  it’s  someone  they  considered,  like,  what  we  would   consider  transgender.     53:19   LC:  Possibly,  and  I  think  it  could  be  even  broader  than  that,  but  definitely  someone   that,  in  our  understanding  of  queer.  You  know,  that  not  following  the  typical  binary   understanding  of  gender  and  gender  identity.  So  yeah,  trans  for  sure,  but  I  think  it  is   even  broader  than  just  trans,  but  definitely  having  an  honoring  and  a  respect   spiritually  for  someone  who  is  of  that,  that’s  their  nature,  that’s  who  they  are.  So  the   Naraya  honors  that,  and  many  of  the  people  who  participate  are  two-­‐spirited   people.  So  that  has  had  a  big  influence  on  me  in  my  spiritual  sexual  journey  and   particularly  because,  like  I  mentioned  earlier,  I’m  a  very  strong  Jesus  follower  and   yet  I  think  that—I  love  to  use  the  illustration  of  a  mountain  and  that  there  are  many   many  paths  to  get  to  the  top  of  that  mountain  and  what’s  important  is  that  you  get  to   the  top  of  the  mountain.  And  once  you  are  at  the  top  of  the  mountain,  it’s  really   insignificant  how  you  got  there  and  so,  again,  I  think  that’s  part  of  that  stuff  that  our   culture  gets  all  wrapped  up  in,  in  saying  “oh,  got  to  go  this  path,  got  to  go  this  path.”   No  no  no  no  no.  Just  get  to  the  top  of  the  mountain.  And  I’m  very  much  influenced   and  drawn  to  Native  American  spirituality.  So  that’s  been  a  part  that’s  been   significant  for  me  and  that  just  has  begun  this  past  year.  My  first  dance  was  last   April.           54:56     16   �MO:  You  mentioned  two  parts.  You  had  the  native  American  part  and  then  there  is   another?     55:01   LC:  You  are  a  very  good  listener.  The  other  part  I  mentioned  to  you  the  other  day   when  we  began  to  talk  and  that  is  that  I  have  been  introduced  to  the  world  of  radical   fairies.  The  world  of  radical  faeries,  that  term  and  the  definition  actually  was  begun   back  in  the  ‘60s  by  a  man  named  Harry  Hay,  a  few  other  people.  Harry  Hay  is   considered  the  father.  My  understanding,  like  I’m  not  an  expert  or  anything,  but  you   know,  my  understanding  is  that  a  part  of  what  he  was  observing  as  a  gay  man  in  San   Francisco  in  the  ‘60s  was  that  gay  people  at  that  point,  and  again,  the  difference   between  what  was  happening  in  California  and  what  was  happening  for  me  maybe   in  Virginia,  but  that  even  then,  gay  people  being  out—which  is  being  assimilated   into  regular  heterosexual  culture—which  meant  that  they  were  losing  their  unique,   special  gift  that  gay  people  bring  to  our  culture.  And  that’s  the  part  that  I  grabbed  a   hold  of,  that  I  truly  believe  in,  that  gay  culture,  queer  culture,  brings  a  uniqueness   and  a  giftedness  to  our  overall  culture  and  that  to  stamp  that  out,  to  try  to  push  that   away  or  to  deny  it,  is  missing  a  huge  piece  of  inclusive  diversity  and  beauty  and   color  and  wonderment  that  we  need,  our  world  really  needs.  So,  that’s  the  faerie   part,  is  that  obviously  he  was  encouraging,  and  it  was  primarily  begun  with  gay  men,   and  for  many  people  who  consider  themselves  radical  faeries,  there  is  still  a  bit  of   that  division  between  male  and  female.  And  that  has  historically  been  a  part  of  the   gay  rights  movement,  is  that  very  often  men  and  women  have  had  a  hard  time   playing  together.  Gay  men  and  lesbians,  and  very  often  there  has  been  that  split.  Not   always,  and  I  think  we  work  hard  to  try  to  make  some  peace  with  all  of  that,  but  the   radical  part  of  course  has  to  do  with  politics  and  what  was  going  on  in  the  ‘60s.  And   it’s  interesting  to  me.  I  feel  so  much  like  I  have  come  full  circle  that  here  I  am  in  my   sixties,  I’m  63  [years  old],  and  I  start  out  back  here  at  the  hippie  movement,  the   Jesus  movement.  The  Jesus  movement  was  very  hippie-­‐ish  with  Jesus  at  the  core.  So,   it  was  all  very  much  alike,  and  then  I  went  through  this  dead  period  where  I  felt  like   I  was  just  totally,  blinders  on,  unaware,  uninvolved,  and  now  I  have  come  back  to   this  place  that  I  feel  like  my  eyes  are  open  and  suddenly  I  have  an  awareness  of   politics,  radical  politics.  I  have  an  awareness  of  my  own  identity  as  a  queer  person   and  I  have  an  acceptance  and  an  inclusiveness  of  that  whole  spectrum  of  queer.   Again,  like  you  said,  including  trans,  which  I  have  gotten  to  meet  one  of  my  very   closest  friends  is  a  person  born  male,  who  is  now  identifying  female  and  yet   maintaining  what  appears  to  me  a  beautiful  balance  between  male  and  female.  And   this  is  someone  I’ve  met  through  this  whole  radical  faerie  community  that  exists   around  the  country  and  around  the  world  actually.  So,  yeah,  all  of  that  has  turned   my  world  upside  down.     58:50   MO:  So,  you  mentioned  it  changed  how  you  looked  at  things,  but  did  it  change  how   you,  the  radical  faerie  movement,  did  that  change  how  you  expressed  yourself  as   well?       17   �58:57   LC:    [laughs]  Yeah,  yeah,  definitely.  What  a  good  question.  You  know,  I  mentioned   there’s  been  this  life-­‐long  struggle  to  make  peace  between  the  sexuality  and  the   spirituality,  and  for  the  longest  time  I  really  thought  that  it  had  to  do  just  with   homosexuality,  that  it  just  had  to  do  with  me  being  a  lesbian.  But,  my  experience   with  the  radical  faeries  and  with  some  of  the…  there  are  some  intentional   communities  around  the  country  and  so  I’ve  actually  gone  in  this  past  year  I’ve   spent  more  time  at  one  of  these  intentional  communities  than  I  have  in  Virginia,  and   I  am  getting  ready  to  go  again  just  in  another  month.  So,  being  around  these  people   who  are  living  there,  living  the  life,  really  immersed  in  these  practices  and  these   understandings  has  done  a  lot  to  open  my  eyes  and  I  don’t  even  know  how  to   explain  it  except  to  say  that  I’ve  had  an  understanding  and  a  realization  that,  for  me,   I  was  very  caught  up  in  our  culture’s  oppression  of  sexuality.  Period.  Not  just   homosexuality,  but  sexuality.  I  think  that  religious  overtones  particularly,  but  I  think   culture  as  well  is  very  oppressive  of  people  being  sexual  creatures,  and  truly   expressing  that,  whether  that’s  as  a  straight  person  or  a  queer  person.  And  so,  yeah,   all  of  a  sudden  I  feel  like  I’ve  come  into  this  full  understanding  of  who  I  am.  It  has   changed  how  I  look.  It  has  changed  how  I  feel  about  myself.  It  has  changed  my   relationships,  the  people  that  I  am  willing  to  fall  in  love  with.  It’s  all  very  much   changed.       1:01:05   MO:  With  the  sex  positivity,  do  you  feel  like  your  relationships  are  better  than  they   were  cause  you  noted  there  was  a  lot  of  tension  between  you  and  Nancy  early  on?     1:01:16   LC:  Yes,  for  sure.    “Sex  positivity,”  that  must  be  one  of  those  terms  that  I’m  not   familiar  with!  Okay,  check  it  off.  There’s  another  one  to  add  to  my  repertoire.  Hadn’t   heard  that  one  before.  Yeah,  sure,  so  I  guess  that’s  true.  For  me,  finally  sex  has   become    a  positive  thing.  Whereas  you’re  right,  with  Nancy,  I  loved  her  and  our   relationship  was  sexual,  but  it  wasn’t  positive,  at  least  not  for  me  because  of  the   conflict  I  had  so  much.  So,  wow,  what  an  amazing  way  to  put  it.  Yes,  you  know,  in   having  this  freedom  and  this  understanding  within  myself  it  has  brought  me  to  the   place,  within  this  past  year,  where  yeah,  I’ve  been  able  to  have  relationships  that   have  been  more  genuine,  more  authentic,  not  enshrouded  in  shame  or  guilt,  and   those  are  the  two  things.  Those  are  the  two  demons  that  have  followed  me  all  my   life.  I  tend  to  think  in  terms  of  metaphors  and  illustrations  and  when  I  think  about   this  past  year,  and  how  I  describe  it,  it  feels  like  for  most  of  my  life  I’ve  been  chained   at  the  bottom  of  the  ocean.  And  suddenly,  the  chain  has  been  broken,  and  I  have  just     exploded  to  the  top.  And,  that’s  a  freedom  and  a  wonderment  that  I  am  so  grateful   for,  and  that  I  do  give  God  credit  for,  because  again,  I’m  convinced  that  as  much  as   the  people  who  would  scream  and  yell  about  what  God  thinks  and  what  God  is   telling  us,  I  don’t  buy  any  of  it.  In  my  understanding,  God  wants  us  to  have  that  sex   positivity,  that  we  experience  the  beauty  and  the  wonder  of  our  bodies,  and  of  being   erotic,  and  being  connected  and  open  with  one  another.  So,  I’m  grateful  to  finally  be   at  that  place.     18   �   01:03:37   MO:  That’s  a  lot  of  personal  growth  within  the  last  year.  So  do  you  think  it  was  the   involvement  in  these  different  communities  that  really  had  spurred  that  on?     01:03:46   LC:  I  think  it’s  been  my  whole  life  journey.  I  mean,  again,  you  talked  about  stepping   stones,  and  was  this  a  stepping  stone?  You  know,  all  of  my  life  has  been  a  stepping   stone,  and  so  I  can  look  at  this  past  year  and  say  “whoosh…  things  have  exploded,”   but  obviously  we  have  to  give  credit  to  I’ve  been  moving  along  in  this  direction  for  a   long  time.  But  I  will  tell  you  that  there  were  days  that  I  thought  I’d  never  get  to   where  I  am  now.    There  were  days  that  I  thought  I  would  go  to  my  grave  still  with   that  sense  of  oppression  and  shame  covering  my  sense  of  my  sexuality,  my   sensuality,  my  sense  of  myself.  I’ve  always  been  uncomfortable  in  my  body  and  I   realized  that  that  goes  back  to  early  years  of  having  been  sexually  abused.  And   again,  didn’t  even  really  make  any  connection  between  any  of  that  until,  you  know,   again,  at  various  places  in  this  journey.  But  again,  that’s  all  gone  as  well,  that  years   and  years  and  years  of  feeling  displaced  in  my  body,  feeling  uncomfortable  in  my   body,  it’s  just  not  there  anymore.  It’s  gone.     01:05:07   MO:  That’s  wonderful.  We’re  almost  at  about  an  hour  so  we’re  about  ready  to  wrap   up.  Is  there  anything  else  you’d  like  to  add?     01:05:15   LC:  I  think  we’ve  covered  a  lot.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you  want  to  add  as  far  as  a   question  to  wrap  it  up,  or,  I  mean,  I  think  we’ve  covered  a  lot.       01:05:  24   MO:  You  know  where  you  plan    to  go  from  here?     01:05:26   LC:  Just  living  life  with  a  tremendous  amount  of  enthusiasm,  and  joy,  and  being  a   light  in  the  darkness.  Even  though  I  look  at  your  generation,  and  I  am  so  proud  of   you  guys.  I’m  so  proud  that  we’ve  come  to  where  we  are,  there’s  still  a  lot  of   darkness,  and  I  think  that,  you  know,  I  bring  something  as  an  elder  to  say  “I’ve  lived   a  year  or  two.  I  know  a  little  bit  about  what  life  is  like  and  I  can  learn  from  you.  I  can   learn  from  this  generation.  But  I  also  bring  a  lot  of  love  and  a  lot  of  stability.”  So,  I   think  what  lies  ahead  is  just,  I’m  continuing  to  be  around  as  many  young  people  as  I   can,  because  that  keeps  me  young,  keeps  me  alive,  and  I  think  it  offers  whatever  it  is   I  can  offer.  To  young  people,  too.  So  that’s  where  I’m  going.     01:06:40   MO:  Perfect.  Well  thank  you  for  talking  with  us.     01:06:43     19   �LC:  You’re  welcome.       [END]             20   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Linny Caldwell Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Linny Caldwell Interviewer: Megan O'Neill, Brian Fersini Interviewee: Linny Caldwell Date: 23 February 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 66:47 Transcription prepared by: Bridget Reardon, Hannah Listopad Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linny Calwell, Megan O'Neill, Brian Fersini, Bridget Reardon, Hannah Listopad Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CaldwellLinny https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3437/Gravely_Garland.MP3 7975a1dbd820feaf6b9718d27a56a7bc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3437/Gravely_Garland.1.pdf 6076d8f9351f2e72aed9ca039e1b123d PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Garland  Gravely   February  26,  2017     Interviewer:    Madison  Pinckes  and  Erik  Weed   Interviewee:    Garland  Gravely   Date:    February  26,  2017   Location:    Garland  Gravely’s  home  in  Roanoke,  Virginia     Transcribed  by:    Dacotah  McGaffic  and  J.T.  Shrader     Duration:    50:15     Index:     0:00  =  Introduction   0:23  =  Experience  at  Patrick  Henry  High  School  (mid-­‐1980s)   1:09  =  Move  and  Life  in  Boston  (mid-­‐1980s)   1:40  =  BAGLY  (gay  youth  group)  in  Boston   2:47  =  Move  to  Miami  and  the  party  life   3:05  =  LGBTQ  community  in  Miami   4:34  =  Struggles  in  Boston  and  Miami;  race  and  sexuality   5:28  =  Going  to  The  Park  in  high  school;  receiving  mentorship  from  female  impersonators   6:15  =  Struggles  of  High  School   6:54  =  People  of  Color  and  LGBTQ  community   7:16  =  Move  back  to  Roanoke   9:02  =  Roanoke’s  gay  community  and  The  Park   9:55  =  Attending  college  at  VCU  in  Richmond,  and  love  of  fashion   11:05  =  People  of  VCU/Richmond  and  the  LGBTQ  community;  relations  with  family  members   1     �13:09  =  Move  to  Washington  D.C.  and  life  there   13:48  =  Moving  back  to  Roanoke  (2004);  experiences  as  a  gay  man  in  Roanoke   17:00  =  Church  Life  and  relationship  with  God   19:15  =  Fashionista  Roanoke  and  relationship  to  the  LGBT  community   20:52  =  Roanoke  Diversity  Center  involvement   21:24  =  African  American  LGBTQ  community  (or  lack  thereof)   22:58  =  Inspiration  from  experiences  and  struggles   23:41  =  more  on  BAGLY     27:17  =  Family,  friends,  and  church  life  (Roanoke,  Boston,  and  Miami)   28:42  =  Appreciation  for  New  York  and  goals   29:54  =  Major  role  models  in  Fashion;  characterizations  of  the  Bible  Belt   32:06  =  Relationships,  dating,  and  gay  bars  in  Roanoke,  including  Macado’s/Cuba  Pete’s   35:43  =  Roanoke  Diversity  Center  and  volunteering   36:32  =  Gays  in  Fashionista  Roanoke  and  Transgender  population   37:46  =  The  Black  Church;  stance  on  LGBTQ  issues   39:02  =  Social  media  and  dating   41:24  =  Old  Southwest,  a  gay  neighborhood  in  Roanoke   41:42  =  Straight  people  at  the  gay  clubs   42:41  =  Identifying  members  in  the  LGBTQ  community;  gay  bars  in  Roanoke   43:40  =  Looking  back  on  Dating   44:59  =  Mentoring  and  Guidance;  problems  affecting  LGBTQ  youth   47:04  =  Relationships  with  Women   47:20  =  African  American  members  in  the  LGBTQ  community   47:58  =  Looking  back  on  high  school     48:17  =  Future  Plans  and  Closing  Remarks       0:00   2     �Madison:  Okay.  It  is  February  26th  at  6  pm  in  downtown  Roanoke.  This  is  Madison  Pinckes  interviewing   Garland  Gravely.  I  just  want  to  mention  that  this  is  a  second  interview.  The  original  recording  had  some   audio  issues.  So  we  are  redoing  it.  Okay,  so  I  just  want  to  start  off  by  asking  about  your  high  school   experience  at  Patrick  Henry.     0:23   Garland:  Going  to  high  school,  it  was  a  little  bit  difficult.  You  know,  I  wasn’t  the  most  popular  kid  in  high   school.  I  felt  isolated  when  I  was  in  high  school,  and  looking  back  on  it  now  I  think  it’s  because  of  my   race  and  being  black,  and  also  it  was,  you  know,  my  sexuality,  as  well,  cause  I  came  out  when  I  was   sixteen  and  at  that  time  you  know  my  high  school  it  was  very  clique-­‐y  and  also  was  very  racially  divided.   0:54   Madison:  When  you  came  out  in  high  school,  who  did  you  come  out  to?   0:58   Garland:  Well,  to  myself  and  just  a  couple  friends,  a  couple  of  female  friends  that  you  know…  that  I  felt   like  that  I  could  trust  and  they  were  like  “Garland,  we  already  knew.”  So,  they  were  not  shocked.   1:09   Madison:  After  you  graduated  high  school,  what  was  your  next  move?   1:13   Garland:  I  left  to  move  to  Boston  with  my  oldest  sister.  I  just  needed  to  get  out  of  Roanoke  at  that  time.  I   wasn’t  happy,  I  was  depressed.  And  so  I  just  wanted  to  get  out  of  Roanoke  and  start  a  new  life.   1:25   Madison:  When  you  got  to  Boston  what  did  you  do,  what  were  your…?   1:29   Garland:  I  worked.  I  went  to  school  briefly  for  a  while  to  college  and  I  dropped  out  because  my  mind   wasn’t  into  that.  I  joined  a  gay  youth  group  and  met  people  through  that  way.   1:40   Madison:  In  the  previous  interview,  you  mentioned  that  the  gay  youth  group  was  called  BAGLY.     1:44   Garland:  Yep,  the  Boston  Alliance  of  Gay  and  Lesbian  Youth.   1:47   Madison:  What  were  some  of  the  things  you  participated  in  through  that  group?   1:49   3     �Garland:  They  had  weekly  meetings  where  they  would  just  pick  a  different  subject.  You  know  gay-­‐ related,  of  course,  and  they  also  had  on  Sunday  afternoons  where  they  would  just  have  a  space  for  the   kids  to  hang  out.   2:03   Madison:  How  many  people  were  involved  in  BAGLY?   2:05   Garland:  Could  be  like  35  to  40  people.  People  came  in  and  out  and  it  wasn’t  like  you  had  to  have  a   membership  or  anything  like  that.  It  was  just  basically  open—those  two  days—were  open  to  whoever   wanted  to  come.   2:14   Madison:  Are  there  any  relationships  that  you  developed  with  people  that  you  still  highly  regard  from   that  time  period?   2:20   Garland:  There’s  a  couple  people  that  I  used  to  hang  out  with  that  I  still  keep  in  contact  with  via   Facebook.   2:27   Madison:  What  were  some  of  the  things  you  guys  did  together?   2:29   Garland:  Clubbing,  out  to  dinner,  running  around  town,  just  hanging  out  on  the  weekends,  weekdays,   after  work  and  school  or  whatever.   2:36   Madison:  When  you  were  in  Boston,  when  you  guys  would  go  clubbing,  did  you  mostly  just  go  to  gay   clubs?   2:41   Garland:  Yes.   2:43   Madison:  Was  there  a  big  gay  club  scene  in  Boston  at  the  time?   2:46   Garland:  Yes,  yes  there  was.   2:47   Madison:  And  then,  after  Boston,  what  was  your  next  move?   2:50   4     �Garland:  I  moved  to  Miami,  Florida.   2:51   Madison:  Okay.  What  were  some  of  the  things  you  were  involved  in  in  Miami?   2:55   Garland:  The  nightlife  [laughing].  I  didn’t  join  any  groups  or  anything  like  that.  It  was  just  a  big  party   Mecca.  So  I  just  partied  a  lot  when  I  was  down  there.   3:05   Madison:  Would  you  say  that  when  you  were  there  that  the  LGBTQ  community  was  pretty  wide  spread,   pretty  large?   3:11   Garland:  It  was  large  but  most  of  the  people  there  where  transients—they  were  on  vacation.  I  mean  it   was  more  of  like  a  party  scene.  it  wasn’t  like  a  well  established,  you  know,  gay  community.  I  think  they   had  a  gay  community  center  at  that  time  and  maybe  there  were  some  gay  organizations  but  I  wasn’t   interested  in  it.  I  wasn’t  involved  in  the  community  that  way.   3:31   Madison:  When  you  were  living  in  Miami  compared  to  when  you  were  living  in  Boston…  I  guess  to   rephrase  that,  did  you  hang  out  or  associate  more  with  members  of  the  LGBTQ  community  in  Miami  or   in  Boston?   3:43   Garland:  Both.   3:43   Madison:  Both?   3:44   Garland:  Both,  yeah.   3:45   Madison:  Would  you  say  that  the  same  amount  of  people?   3:47   Garland:  Yes,  yes  just  different  people.  Yeah.   3:48   Madison:  When  you  were  living  in  Miami,  were  you  more  drawn  to  members  of  the  LGBTQ  community?   Or  is  it  just  the  way  that  things  kind  of…  How  did  you,  I  guess,  make  friends  when  you  were  there?   4:00   5     �Garland:  Well,  I  lived  on  South  Beach  and  at  the  time  South  Beach  was  a  gay  Mecca.  I  mean  it  was  like   the  gay  neighborhood  basically,  so  you  couldn’t  help  [it],  I  mean  you  always  were  around  gay  people   24/7.   4:11   Madison:  Are  there  any  relationship  from  there  that  you  still…?   4:15   Garland:  No.   4:15   Madison:  …keep  in  touch  with?   4:16   Garland:  Well,  my  best  friend—who  actually  I  was  best  friends  with  him  in  Boston—him  and  his  partner   live  in  Fort  Lauderdale  now,  so  he  is  the  only  person  I  keep  in  contact  with.  At  that  time  the  two  years  I   was  there,  the  friendships  were  just  very  transient.  I  mean  people  basically…  this  is  one  of  those  cities   where  people  were  just  coming  and  going,  you  know?   4:34   Madison:  You  mentioned  before  that  your  experience  coming  out  in  high  school  was  very  affected  by   obviously  your  race  and  your  sexuality,—not  obviously  but  your  sexuality  affected  coming  out.  Do  you   think  that  you  had  similar  kind  of  issues  when  you  were  living  in  Boston  or  Miami?   4:53   Garland:  Boston…  being  part  of  BAGLY,  the  gay  youth  group,  really  helped  me  to  become  a  stronger   person  and  more  acceptant  of  my  homosexuality  because  for  the  first  time  in  my  life  I  was  actually   hanging  out  with  people  who  were  just  like  me.  No  matter  what  race  they  were,  we  all  shared  pretty   much  the  same  sexuality.   5:12   Madison:  Did  you  notice  that  race  played  any  role  when  you  were  living  in  Boston?   5:17   Garland:  Um  hmm  [agreement].   5:17   Madison:  It  did,  in  what  ways?   5:20   Garland:  Well,  Boston  at  the  time  wasn’t  a  very  friendly  city.  I  mean,  it  was  still  racially  divided  sorta  like   what  Roanoke  was  at  that  time.   5:28   6     �Madison:  When  you  were  in  high  school,  did  you  have  anyone  that  you  could  like  look  up  to  or  kinda  of   like  guide  you  I  guess  through  the  journey  of  when  you  were  coming  out  and  you  were  first  really  being   open  about  your  sexuality?   5:41   Garland:  I  can  honestly  tell  you  it  was  when  I  started  going  to  The  Park,  and  I  was  meeting  people  there.   Particularly  it  was  the  female  impersonators  that  at  first  embraced  me  and  they  kinda  took  me  under   their  wing.  I  was  never  a  female  impersonator  but  I’m  just  saying  they  were  the  first  ones  to  kinda  take   me  under  their  wing  and  kinda,  you  know,  mentor  me  in  a  way.   6:05   Madison:  How  did  they  mentor  you?   6:06   Garland:  Just  by  talking  about  the  gay  life,  or  if  I  needed  anything,  had  any  questions,  they  would  just  be   there  for  me,  so  like  a  mother  figure  if  you  will.   6:15   Madison:  When  you  were  in  high  school  in  Roanoke  are  there  any  experience  that  stand  out  that   affected…  that  were,  I  guess,  in  connection  with  your  race  and  your  sexuality,  were  you  ever  like   targeted  or…?   6:28   Garland:  Not  physically  targeted  but  just…   6:32   Madison:  I  mean  any  kind  of…   6:32   Garland:  Well,  mentally  or  emotionally,  just  feeling  isolated  when  you  know  people  don’t  want  to  hang   out  with  you  it’s  either  because  you’re  gay  or  because  you’re  black,  you  know,  because  I  got  it  from  both   sides.  I  mean  there  where  people  within  the  black  community  who  didn’t  want  to  hang  out  with  me  or   get  to  know  me  because  of  my  sexuality  and  in  the  other  communities,  it  could  be  either  one  or  both.     6:54   Madison:  Do  you  think  that,  not  just,  I  guess,  you  personally,  but  in  general  people  of  color  who  are  a   part  of  the  LGBTQ  community  have  a  completely  different  kind  of  experience  than  I  guess  white   members  do?   7:10   Garland:  Um  hmm  [Agrees].  Because  you  are  a  double  minority.  I  mean,  you  still  have  to  deal  with  being   of  your  race  and  also  your  sexuality.   7:16   7     �Madison:  So,  after  you  went  to  Miami,  what  was  your  next  kind  of  move  in  life?   7:23   Garland:  I  came  back  to  Roanoke  because  I  wanted  to  go  back  to  college.  I  knew  that  I  couldn’t  spend   my  whole  life  just  partying,  partying,  partying,  partying,  partying,  because  I  was  raised  by  my  mother   and  grandmother  and  they  emphasized  education,  education,  education,  like  I  have  six  of  us  and  all  of   us  had  the  opportunity  to  go  to  college.  You  know,  that’s  my  grandmother  and  my  mother  believed  in   education  strongly.  So    I  knew  in  the  back  of  my  mind  that  I  didn’t  want  to  spend  my  whole  life  just   partying  you  know  five,  six,  seven  days  a  week.  And  so  I  came  back  to  Roanoke  to,  you  know,  work  and   get  myself  together,  reconnect  with  my  family  and  my  friends  that  I  had  left,  and  then  also  to  go  back  to   college  at  some  point.   8:01   Madison:  How  where  you  feeling  about  yourself  when  you  came  back  to  Roanoke?   8:06   Garland:  I  felt  more  empowered  then  when  I  left  because  of  my  experiences  living  in  a  bigger  city  and   when  I  lived  in  a  bigger  city  I  was  more  independent  and  I  could  truly  be  myself.  So  it  took  me  a  while  to   really  acclimate  myself  to  Roanoke,  because  at  that  time  Roanoke  was  just  a  totally,  I  mean,  definitely   different  from  South  Beach.  I  went  from  being  open  about  it  and  people  not  caring  to  coming  back  to   the  Bible  Belt  and  having  to  face  those  same  old  issues,  you  know?   8:34   Madison:  Did  you  feel  your  sense  of  self  was  stronger  or…?   8:38   Garland:  Yes,  absolutely,  I  felt  my  sense  of  self  was  a  lot  stronger  than  before  I  left.   8:44   Madison:  Would  you  say  that  developed  further  when  you  were  living  in  Boston  or  when  you  were  living   in  Miami?   8:48   Garland:  Boston  was  sort  of  like  the  beginning  of  it  but  Miami  was  really  where  I  could  really…  it  was  just   such  a  free  community.  People  just  didn’t  care;  you  could  pretty  much  be  who  you  wanted  to  be  as  long   as  you  were  not  hurting  or  harming  others.  I  mean  they  didn’t  care.   9:02   Madison:  When  you  came  back  to  Roanoke,  how  would  you  describe  the  LGBTQ  community  at  the   time?   9:07   8     �Garland:  Really  the  only  thing  we  had  at  the  time  was  really  The  Park.  I  mean  you  know  it  was  just  if  you   wanted  to  meet  other  people  within  the  community,  you  went  to  The  Park.   9:17   Madison:  What  was  The  Park  like  at  the  time?   9:19   Garland:  It  wasn’t  bad  really.  I  mean  I  was  used  to  going  to  places  where  it  was  like,  you  had  the  top   music,  top  DJs,  it  was  a  totally  different  atmosphere.  So  I  felt  like  I  went  from,  you  know,  here,  then  I   went  backwards  as  far  as  the  nightlife  scene  or  even  the  gay  community.   9:39   Madison:  Did  you  feel  at  anytime  boxed  in  by  Roanoke  or...?   9:43   Garland:  Yes,  absolutely  I  did.  I  felt  really,  really  boxed  in.   9:47   Madison:  And  so,  after  you  came  back  here  I  know  you  eventually  moved  on  to  go  to  Richmond  for   school.  How  did  that  come  about?   9:55   Garland:  I  just  knew  I  wanted  to  go  back  to  school  and  I  knew  I  wanted  to  major  in  fashion,   merchandising.  And  I  just  sorta  [said]  if  I’m  not  gonna  stay  in  Virginia,  I’m  gonna  go  to  New  York  because   I  was  kind  of,  you  know,  I  went  to  Virginia  Western  [Community  College]  to  get  my  general  studies  out   the  way  and  then  I  was  debating  whether  I  was  gonna  go  to  Radford  University,  VCU  [Virginia   Commonwealth  University],  or  just  go  to  FIT  [the  Fashion  Institute  of  Technology]  in  New  York.  Then  I   thought,  “well,  you  know,  it’s  best  if  I  stay  here  in  Virginia.”  Also  I  thought  VCU  was  a  better  choice   cause  I  would  be  in  more  of  an  urban  [center]…  cause  I  prefer  an  urban  setting  anyway.  So  that  was  a   better  choice  for  me.   10:27   Madison:  How  did  your  love  of  fashion  really  come  to  fruition?     10:30   Garland:  I’ve  always  loved  it.  It  was  really  Miami,  South  Beach,  as  sort  of…  it  was  like  this  is  what  I  truly   want  to  do,  because  at  the  time  South  Beach  was  becoming  a  Mecca  for  the  fashion  industry  as  well.   You  had  people  from  New  York  and  Europe  coming  to  Miami,  because  it  was  the  hot  spot,  it  was  the   place  to  be  at  the  time.  You  could  flip  through,  you  know,  a  fashion  magazine  like  Harper’s  Bazaar  or   Vogue  and  you  would  see  actual  scenes  from  like  a  restaurant,  or  part  of  the  beach,  or  a  hotel  that  was   right  on  South  Beach.  I  mean  South  Beach  was  the  big  place  to  be  at  the  time  for  the  fashion  industry.   11:05   9     �Madison:  When  you  were  in  Richmond  going  to  VCU  for  fashion—well,  first,  I  want  to  ask,  was  the   program  I  guess  diverse  in  the  sense  of  sexual  orientation  or  was  it…?  What  where  the  kind  of  people   that  were  in  the  program  like?  Were  they  straight,  or  part  of  the  LGBTQ  community?   11:24   Garland:  I  think  you  had  a  few.  I  mean  most  of  the  guys  that  I  knew  of  in  the  program  were  a  part  of  the   LGBT  community.   11:30   Madison:  Were  you  able  to  be  open  about  your  sexuality  in  Richmond  more  than  you  were  in  Roanoke?   11:34   Garland:  Yes  I  was,  because  no  one  knew  me.  Moving  back  here  it  was,  you  know,  you  had  to  think   about  your  family,  because  you’re  coming  back  and  everyone  knows  your  family  and  you  have  to  worry   about,  you  know,  so  and  so  would  call  my  mom  saying  “oh,  we  saw  Garland  doing  this,  that,  and  the   other.”  You  know,  I  would  just  freak  out  about  that  because  I  had  not…  I  had  changed  so  much.  It  was   kinda  like  “why  are  you  caring  what  I  do  and  what  I  don’t  do?”  So,  I  had  to  kind  of  be  more,  a  little  more   back  in  the  closet  in  Roanoke  because  of  my  family  being  involved  in  the  community  and  knowing  the   community  and  my  brothers,  my  sisters,  and  my  mom  and  grandmother  because  they  were  very  active   in  the  community.     12:14   Madison:  Do  you  think  I  guess  that  kind  of  stigma  affected  your  relationships  with  your  family  members?   12:20   Garland:  Yes  it  did.   12:21   Madison:  Does  it  still  affect  them  today?   12:23   Garland:  I  think  it  has  gotten  better.  I  think,  you  know,  it  has  gotten  better  for  a  lot  of  people.   12:28   Madison:  Going  back  to  when  you  were  living  in  Richmond,  were  you  active  at  all  within  the  LGBTQ   community?   12:33   Garland:  Not  at  all,  because  I  was  busy  working  full  time  and  going  to  school  full  time.  I  didn’t  have  time   and  I  mean  basically  if  I  had  time  and  if  I  wanted  to  go,  I’d  gone  to  a  club  to  go  dancing  with  friends.  But   as  far  as  being  active  in  the  community,  I  just  didn’t  have  the  time  to.   12:47   10     �Madison:  When  you  were  going  to  clubs  in  Richmond,  where  they  gay  clubs?   12:49   Garland:  Yes,  yes.   12:50   Madison:  Did  you  find  that  the  scene,  the  gay  club  scene,  was  different  than  what  you  had  experienced   in  Roanoke?   12:56   Garland:  More,  it  was  more  to  do.  It  was  more  clubs  to  choose  from,  yeah,  absolutely.   13:01   Madison:  if  you  had  to  go  back  in  time,  is  there  anywhere  that  you  would  of,  that  you  have  lived,  that   you  would  have  stayed  if  you  could  have  for  a  longer  period  of  time?   13:09   Garland:  For  a  longer  period  of  time?  Actually,  no,  really.  Really,  I  mean  I  have  no  desire  to  go  back  to   Boston.  I  wouldn’t  move  back  to  DC.  The  only  thing  I  regret  was  that  I  wish  I  had  moved  to  New  York  City   from  Boston  instead  of  going  to  Miami.  I  kind  of  wished  I’d  gone  to  New  York  City.     13:25   Madison:  You  mentioned  you  lived  in  DC.  How  long  where  you  in  DC  for?   13:29   Garland:  A  year  in  a  half.   13:31   Madison:  What  were  you  doing  there?   13:33   Garland:  I  worked  in  retail  and,  you  know,  I  was  trying  to  establish  and  get  something  started  so  I  can  go   from  DC  to  New  York  and  that  didn’t  happen.  I  made  the  decision  to  come  back  to  Roanoke.  Cause  I   wasn’t  really  happy  in  DC.  I  just  knew  that  I  didn’t  want  to  be  there.     13:48   Madison:  When  you  came  back  to  Roanoke  after  VCU,  what  was  the  first  thing  you  really  got  involved  in   here?   13:56   Garland:  Oh,  I  mean  it  was  DC.   13:58   11     �Madison:  Oh,  sorry.   13:59   Garland:  Yeah,  [from]  VCU  I  went  to  DC  for  a  year  and  a  half  and  then  I  came  from  DC  to  Roanoke…   14:02   Madison:  Okay,  when  you  got  back  from  DC,  when  you  came  back  I  guess  to  settle  in  Roanoke,  cause   that’s  where  you  have  been  for…   14:09   Garland:  Since  2004.   14:10   Madison:  Since  2004.  What  was  the  first  thing  you  got  back  involved  in  when  you  came  back  here?   14:15   Garland:  I  tried  to  reconnect  with  friends  that  I  had  just,  you  know,  when  I  lived  away  for  several  years…   I  tried  to  reconnect  with  them.  And  then  I  started  meeting  new  people.  So  I  really  didn’t  get  involved   with  the  gay  community  as  much.  I  mean  I  went  to  the  clubs  every  now  and  then.  But  I  was  more   focused  on  reestablishing  my  life  here  and  with  my  family  and  then  meeting  new  people.     14:35   Madison:  When  you  came  back…  I  guess,  as  your  friendships,  as  you  reconnected  with  your  friendships,   and  as  you  established  more  friendships,  did  you  become  friends  with  more  people  from  the  LGBTQ   community  or  did  it  just  not  matter,  it  was  just…?   14:54   Garland:  It  didn’t  matter.  I  think  I  became  more  friends  with  straight  people,  believe  it  or  not,  then,  you   know,  of  the  gay  people.  It  really  didn’t  matter  to  me  whether  at  that  point  if  you  were  a  part  of  the   LGBT  community  or  if  you  were  straight,  it  just  didn’t  matter  to  me  or  what  race  you  were,  what  shape   or  size  you  were,  it  didn’t  matter  to  me  then.   15:09   Madison:  From  your  perspective  as  a  gay  man  in  Roanoke,  how  in  the  past  almost  twenty  years,  no   [counting]…  since  you  got  back  in  2004,  looking  from  the  outside  in,  as  a  gay  man,  how  would  you   describe  your  experiences  if  that  makes  since?   15:31   Garland:  [Agrees]  You  know,  isolation,  fear,  coming  out,  and  then  going  from  isolation  and  fear  to   progressing  to  being  comfortable  with  who  I  am.     15:42   Madison:  if  you  could  give  your  younger  self  advice,  what  would  you  tell  yourself?   12     �15:48   Garland:  Not  to  worry  about  what  people  think  about  you…   15:51   Madison:  Yeah.   15:52   Garland:  And  to  just  learn  to  love  yourself  and  accept  yourself.   15:55   Madison:  Also  looking  back  to  all  the  different  places  you  lived,  would  you  say  that  they  all  shaped  you   equally,  or,  I  mean,  you  have  been  to  some  pretty  prominent  places.  I  know  you  mentioned  that  Boston   was  really  like  the  time  that  helped  you  develop  who  you  are;  but  do  you  think  that  they  all  kind  of   brought  different  aspects  of  your  life  together  in  a  way?   16:19   Garland:  Yes,  absolutely.   16:20   Madison:  How  would  you  describe  that?   16:22   Garland:  Absolutely.  Like  for  Boston,  it  was  getting  me  through  my  teen  and  early  twenties.  Miami  was   more  of  just  partying  and  being  free  and  living  sort  of  the  hedonistic  lifestyle.  DC  was  where  I  just…   Richmond  was  education,  the  focus  was  education.  DC  was  more  about  trying  to  establish  myself  after   college  and  what  I  wanted  to  do.  And  then  coming  back  to  Roanoke  was  just  basically  taking  everything   that  I  have  learned  and  what  I  have  become  and  bringing  that  back  here.     16:52   Madison:  How  would  you  describe  the  path  of  life  for  someone  who  is  of  color  and  also  gay?   17:00   Garland:  It  is  not  easy.  I  mean  it  is  not  easy.  You  go  through  battles  every  day;  it  is  either  one  or  the   other  or  both.  But  for  me  I  just  have  to  stay  strong  and  just  my  faith  and  my  spirituality  and  my  belief  in   God  and  my  spirituality  has  really  gotten  me  through  a  lot  of  things.     17:16   Madison:  Do  you  feel  like  being  black  and  being  part  of  the  LGBTQ  community  is  not  acknowledged   enough?     17:26   Garland:  No.  I  think  it’s  gotten  better  but  we  still  have  a  long  way  to  go.   13     �17:30   Madison:  Where  have  you  seen  the  improvements?   17:32   Garland:  The  media,  television,  the  movies.  You’re  starting  to  see  a  lot  more,  you  know,  gay  people  who   are  coming  out.  The  only  thing  in  the  African  American  LGTB  community,  you  still  don’t  have  enough   role  models  to  look  up  to;  more  so  in  the  Caucasian,  the  white  community,  you  have  more  people  that   are  more  out,  but  in  the  African  American  community  it’s  still  a  stigma  to  be  gay.  It’s  gotten  better  but   there’s  still  that  stigma.   17:56   Madison:    Really.  So,  how  did  does  it  thrive?  I’m  just  surprised  by  that.   18:02   Garland:  Well,  because  the  church  is  the  center  of  the  African  American  community.    So  a  lot  of  people   are  very  religious  and,  you  know,  to  them  homosexuality  is  a  sin  and  an  abomination  so  you  are   constantly  fighting  with  that.  I  fought  through  that  for  my  whole  life.  I  think  it’s  gotten  better;  there  are   some  black  churches  that  have  gotten  more  progressive  in  their  thought  with  that,  but  it’s  still  a  long   way  to  go.     18:24   Madison:  Are  you  active  in  your  church?   18:28   Garland:  I  am.     18:30   Madison:  I  know  I  asked  this  in  the  previous  interview  but  do  you  think  that  your  sexuality  and  kind  of,  I   guess,  the  stigma  you  felt  from  society  about  your  sexuality  has  affected  your  relationship  with  God?   18:45   Garland:  Not  anymore,  because  I  believe  that  God  loves  me  for  [who  I  am];  I  was  born  this  way.  It  is  how   He  created  me.  He  created  me  this  way.  So  my  whole  attitude  changes  so  the  naysayers,  they  don’t   bother  me  anymore.       18:59   Madison:  Did  you  feel  it  ever  affected  you  or  did  you  ever  question  your  relationship  with  God?   19:02   Garland:  Yes,  because  growing  up,  you  were  always  told  that  it  was  wrong  and  it  was  a  sin,  so  growing   up.  But  as  I’ve  gotten  older  and  I’ve  developed  my  own  beliefs,  [a]  personal  relationship  with  God,  I   realize  that  that’s  not  true.     14     �19:15   Madison:  So  I  know  you  started  your  own  fashion  non-­‐profit  called  Fashionista  Roanoke,  and  how  is  it…   are  you  very  active  with  that  and  the  LGTBQ  community  or  are  they  kinda  like  separate  entities  to  you?     19:32   Garland:  We’ve  done  some  things  with  the  LGTB  community  like  a  couple  of  the  organizations  here  in   Roanoke,  we’ve  done  fashion  shows  for  as  fundraisers,  so  I’m  involved  in  that  way.   19:41   Madison:  How  would  you  describe  your  relationship  with  the  LGBTQ  community  in  Roanoke  now?   19:46   Garland:  I  think  it’s  okay.  I’m  not  really  heavily  involved  in  any  just  one  community.  I’m  spread  out  over   all  different  communities  so  I  don’t  have  an  exclusive  relationship  with  the  LGBT  community,  because   I’m  all  over  the  place.   20:03   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  like  being  spread  out  has  affected  your  relationship  with  the  LGBTQ   community  like  because  you’re  kind  of  active  through  everything?  Do  you  feel  like  you  can  be  more  of  a   voice  there  or…?   20:19   Garland:  Actually,  I’m  comfortable  where  I  am  because  I  feel  like  I  need  to  be  for  me  that  it  is  good  that   I’m  involved  in  different  communities  because  I  think  different  communities  need  to  get  to  know  me  as   an  African  American  person  as  well  as  a  gay  person  as  well  because  a  lot  of  times  I  can  be  involved  with   an  organization  or  at  an  event  and  I  may  be  the  only  openly  gay  person  there  as  far  as  I  know  or  what  I   can  see  there.  So  I  feel  like  I  need  to  be  in  those  places  because  that’s  the  only  way  to  me  that  you  are   going  to  break  down  barriers.  I  don’t  believe  in  segregating  myself  or  putting  myself  in  cliques.     20:52   Madison:  Yeah,  I  appreciate  that.  I  remember  you  mentioned  something  about  the  Roanoke  Diversity   Center.  You  were  active  through  that.  Can  you  tell  me  more  about  that?   21:01   Garland:  I  was  one  of  their  founding  board  members.  I  was  friends  with  the  two,  at  the  time,  the   president  and  the  vice  president  who  actually  started—planted  the  seed—for  the  RDC  so  I  was  one  of   their  founding  board  members.   21:14   Madison:  What  were  some  of  the  things  you  did  as  a  founding  board  member?   21:16   15     �Garland:  Helped  them  to  organize  and  get  everything…  bring  people  in.  Just  to  get  everything,  the   process,  started  of  creating  a  community  center.     21:24   Madison:  Would  you  say  in  Roanoke  that  there  is  a  big  African  American  LGBTQ  population?   21:31   Garland:  I  believe  so,  but  it’s  hard  to  tell  because  it’s  not  an  organized,  unified  LGBTQ  community,   African  American  community.  I  mean  I  know  there’s  a  lot  of  us  here  but  we’re  not  organized  together.  I   mean  there  is  no,  you  know,  like  most  cities  will  have  an  African  American  LGBTQ,  you  know,  group,  or   social  group,  or  whatever  it  is.  We  don’t  have  that  here.     21:51   Madison:  Are  you  friendly  with  members  that  are  African  American  of  the  LGBTQ  community.   21:55   Garland:  [Agrees]  Yes.   21:56   Madison:  So  I  guess  I’m  trying  to  get  at  how  diverse  is  the  LGBTQ  community  here?   22:03   Garland:  I  think  it’s  very  diverse  but  it’s  still,  because  of  the  area  that  we  live  in,  I  think  you  still  have   your  cliques.  So  yeah,  I  think  it’s  definitely  diverse.   22:12   Madison:  Living  in  Roanoke  and  I  guess  you  seem  to  know  everyone…  I  remember  in  our  last  interview...     22:19   Garland:  [Agrees;  laughter]   22:19   Madison:  …atrangers  were  saying  “hi”  to  you.  Do  you  think  that  you  can  be  a  role  model  for  people   because  you  are  involved  in  so  much  and  you  are  such  a  diverse  person?  Have  you  been  able  to  do  any   outreach  with  anybody?   22:33   Garland:  I  think  I  have  been.  I  think  just  by  me  being  present  and  just  me  being  me,  I  may  be  a  role   model  to  people.  I  don’t  know.  I  mean  someone  comes  up  to  me  and  says  “Hey,  you’ve  inspired  me  to   kinda  not  be  afraid  of  who  I  am  and  not  be  afraid  to  think  outside  the  box  and  do  things  that  are  out  of   the  box  and  not  be  afraid  to  be  the  only  one,”  whether  it  be  a  person  of  color  in  a  situation  or  the  only   openly  gay  person  there.   22:58   16     �Madison:  Throughout  your  life,  like  what  has  continuously  inspired  you  to  be  the  way  you  are?   23:03   Garland:  Just  the  life  experiences  that  I’ve  had.  The  people  I’ve  been  honored  to  meet.  You  know,  I  love   the  fact  that  I  have  a  lot  of  hetero  straight  male  friends  who  accept  me  for  me  and  love  me  for  me  just   like  I  love  and  care  for  them  and  we’re  friends  not  because  of  my  race  or  my  sexuality;  they  just  like  me   as  a  person.   23:21   Madison:  Have  you  ever  struggled  in  your  life  with  straight  people?   23:25   Garland:  Yes,  I  have.  I  mean,  because  you,  in  those  days,  it  was  like  you  know  homosexuality  was   something  that  was  looked  down  upon.  I  think  because  now  it’s  got  better  because  we’re  more  open   and  visible  in  mainstream  society  now  than  we  were  twenty,  thirty  years  ago.   23:41   Madison:  When  you  were  living  in  Boston,  just  going  back  to  BAGLY,  what  were  like,  I  guess,  I  know  you   mentioned  that  you  guys  would  go  clubbing  and  you  would  do  dinners  together;  what  were  some  of  the   things  that  were  discussed  when  you  had  the  meetings?   23:57   Garland:  As  for  as  it  can  be  anything  on  how  to  come  out  of  the  closet,  you  know,  establishing  healthy   relationships.  They  would  have  a  different  topic  every  week.   24:06   Madison:  Were  there  people  of  color  involved  in  BAGLY?   24:08   Garland:  Yes.  BAGLY  was  very  racially  mixed.  Because  it  was  the  only  thing  at  the  time  that  we  could  go   to,  so  you  had  a  lot  of  people  that  were  from  the  suburbs  of  Boston  who  would  come  in  to  go  to  BAGLY   because  they  had  no  other  outlet.  Some  of  them  were  still  in  the  closet  and  their  parents,  their  families,   didn’t  even  know  they  were  gay  because  they  were  too  afraid  to  come  out.  So  BAGLY  gave  them  that   outlet  to  be  themselves.   24:28   Madison:  Was  it  easy  to  let  go  of  BAGLY?   24:30   Garland:  No.  As  I  got  older,  after  a  couple  years  and  I  started  meeting  people  who  were  outside  of  that,   and  I  just  sorta  just  drifted  away.  You  know,  I  started  to  establish  relationships  outside  of  BAGLY   because  it’s  sorta  like  when  you  leave  high  school,  cause  when  you  look  back  on  it,  I  mean,  BAGLY  was   like  an  extension  of  high  school.  It  really  was.  At  the  time  that  was  fine  because  I  was  like  17-­‐18  when  I   17     �first  moved  to  Boston  and  joined  them.  But  you  know,  when  you’re  early  twenties—19  [or]  20—you   kinda  feel  like,  “okay,  this  is  still  high  school.”  So  I  was  ready  to  move  on  at  that  point.     25:03   Madison:  When  you  were  active  in  BAGLY,  did  you  still  kind  of  feel  like  you  were  suffering?  I  mean   maybe  not  from  the  group  itself,  the  group  wasn’t  causing  it,  but  your  own  inner  isolation?   25:12   Garland:  Yes,  absolutely.  Still  learning  to  get  to  know  myself  and  still  learning  to  love  and  accept  myself.   25:19   Madison:  What  was  something  that  really  helped  you  learn  how  to  love  and  accept  yourself?  I  think  it’s   really  important  to  record  that  so…   25:26   Garland:  Just  getting  older  and  my  experiences  and  getting  to  the  point  where  you’re  saying,  you  know,   it’s  like  the  “ah  hah”  moment.  I  cannot  keep  worrying  about  what  people  think  about  me  because  I  have   to  be  happy  and  it  was  just  coming  to  the  realization  as  I  got  older  that  I  started  having  these   experiences,  I  was  like  “I  can’t  control  what  people  think  about  me.  I  have  to  still  live  my  life  and  be  who   I  am.”     25:49   Madison:  Do  you  ever  still  struggle  with  that?   25:50   Garland:  Not  as  much.  Not  as  much.   25:54   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  being—I  mean,  you  said  earlier  that  you’re  a  double  minority  so  it’s   obviously  harder  in  society—but  do  you  think  that  there  is  in  some  way….  Like,  do  you  ever  feel  that  if   you  were  like  one  minority  or  the  other  you  wouldn’t  suffer  as  much?  You’re  not  saying  you  suffer  but   do  you  think  there  would  be  less  stigma  attached  to  who  you  are?   26:  20   Garland:  I  think  it  would  be  less  stigma  attached  if  I  were  heterosexual,  you  know.     26:31   Madison:  Okay.  Going  back  off  of  talking  about  BAGLY,  when  you  were  living  in  Miami,  did  anything  that   you  learned  in  BAGLY,  did  you  take  that  with  [you]?  I’m  sure  that  it’s  carried  with  you  for  your  whole  life   but  is  there  anything  that  really  stands  out  that  when  you  were  living  in  Miami  you  really  embraced  that   you  had  learned  in  BAGLY?   26:48   18     �Garland:  Developing  friendships  and  relationships  and  having  that  support.  It  was  a  big  support  group.  It   was  having  that  support  and  mentors  within  the  group.  The  adults  were  part  of  the  organization  that   you  could  go  and  talk  to  at  any  time.   27:02   Madison:  Would  you  say  that  support  is  probably  the  most  important  aspect  of  being  part  of  the  LGBTQ   community?   27:06   Garland:  Yes,  absolutely,  because  we  face  so  much  out  there.  So  we  need  to  come  together  to  support   each  other.   27:13   Madison:  Where  do  you  find  the  most  support  in  your  life  now?   27:  15   Garland:  Through  my  family  and  friends.   27:17   Madison:  Has  your  family  come  to  not  terms  with  who  you  are,  but  has  your  family  like  been  more  open   to  who  you  are  compared  to  when  you  were  younger?   27:26   Garland:  Yes,  much  so.  Like  my  oldest  brother  who  is,  I  mean  he’s  in  the  music  industry,  so  he  was  used   to  being  around,  you  know,  LGBT  people.  And  my  oldest  sister,  you  know,  her  living  in  Boston  she   opened  her  mind  because  she  started  having  friends,  she  has  friends  who  were  part  of  the  LGBTQ   community  too,  so  having  that  support  really  helped.   27:47   Madison:  Like,  within  your  church,  do  you  know  if  there  are  any  other  openly  gay  members?   27:54   Garland:  Not  that  I  know  of.  I  have  no  idea.  I’m  not  saying  there  aren’t  any.  I  just  don’t  know  any.  As  far   as  I  know,  I’m  the  only  one.  There  may  be  others;  they’re  probably  just  still  in  the  closet.     28:02   Madison:  When  you  were  living  in  Miami,  you  were  living  the  high  life,  the  part  life.  Did  you  find  it  hard   to  establish  deeper  relationships  with  people  because  everything  was,  I  guess,  frivolous?     28:18   Garland:  Yes,  yes.  I  had  more  deeper  relationships  in  Boston  compared  to  Miami  because  Miami  was   just  a  good  time.  I  had  a  few  friends  in  Miami  but  other  than  that,  it  was  much  harder  to  make  friends   because  people  weren’t  really  focused  on  that.  You  know,  it’s  like  I  said,  it  was  a  very  transient  [place].   19     �People  were  just  either  on  vacation  for  a  month  or  two,  or  they  would  come  down  for  the  winter  season   and  go  back  to  where  they  came  from.  So  people  were  always  constantly  in  and  out.   28:42   Madison:  How  do  you  think  your  experiences  would  have  been  different  regarding  your  sexuality,  your   race,  or  your  occupation,  if  you  had  gone  to  New  York?   28:51   Garland:  I  would  have  definitely  would  have  gone  to  school  there  and  been  maybe  more  active.  Because   New  York  is  where  I’ve  always  wanted  to  live  ever  since  I  was  a  kid.  I  mean  I  was  in  the  3rd  grade  and  I   wanted  to  live  in  New  York,  so  I  think  my  life  would  have  been…  I  think  I  would  have  probably  gone  back   to  school  much  sooner  had  I  had  the  opportunity  because  FIT  [the  Fashion  Institute  of  Technology]  and   all  of  that  was  right  there.  You  had  schools  in  fashion  right  there,  so  I  think  I  would  have  done  better.   29:14   Madison:  Do  you  think  you’ll  ever  make  your  way  up  there?   29:16   Garland:  Maybe.  I  don’t  know.  I’m  open  to  the  possibility.   29:19   Madison:  You  seem  like  very  open  to  really  any  kind  of  community  or  anybody  or  just  trying  new  things.   Is  there  anything  that  you  still  feel  that  you  want  to  pursue  in  your  life?   29:32   Garland:  Just  to  keep  making  and  building  relationships  with  family  and  friends.  [I]  always  want  to  meet   new  people  and  experiences  and  of  course  making  Fashionista  Roanoke  the  best  that  it  can  be.     29:42   Madison:  I  think  it’s  so  interesting  that  you  really  developed  your  love  for  fashion  at  a  time  in  your  life   where  you  weren’t  rooted,  because  you  were  in  Miami,  but  you  found  your  passion  while  you  were   there…   29:54   Garland:  [Agrees]   29:54   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  if  you  had,  I  mean,  you  said  you  always  felt  this  way  about  fashion,  but  do   you  think  that  Miami  played  a  key  role  in  developing  that?   30:04   Garland:  A  major  role,  because  you  saw  it  all  the  time.  I  mean,  you  walked  down  the  street  or  on  the   beach  or  wherever  and  you  would  see  photo  shoots,  or  when  we  were  going  ou  clubbing,  you  would   20     �meet  people  and  you  would  meet  people  who  worked  in  the  fashion  industry.  You  know,  they  would   come  down  from  New  York  for  the  winter  season  and  they  were  photographers,  makeup  artists,  hair,   just  all  kinds  of  heirs  of  fashion.  I  started  meeting  all  kinds  of  people  like  that  and  going  to  parties  and   stuff  like  that.   30:26   Madison:  When  you  kind  of  started  to  pursue  those  connections,  did  you  get  involved  in  anything  down   there?   30:31   Garland:  No.  I  was  just,  like  I  said,  my  whole  life  was  just  parting,  meeting  people,  and  having  fun.   30:36   Madison:  Now  that  you’re  older,  do  you  have  anyone  that  you  look  up  to  or  are  there  any  role  models  in   the  media  or  anywhere  that  you  can  identify  as  people  who  inspire  you?   30:47   Garland:  Tim  Gunn  is  a  major  inspiration  for  me.  As  a  mentor,  I  mean,  I  would  have  loved  to  have  had  a   teacher  like  Tim  Gunn.  Andre  Leon  Talley,  he’s  African  American,  he  was  a  former  editor  at  Vogue   magazine.  I  mean  it’s  people  like  that  that  I  kinda,  even  when  I  was  in  school,  that  I  kinda  looked  up  to   that  inspired  me.   31:10   Madison:  What  do  you  pull  from  them  personally?  Like  how  do  they  serve  your  inspiration?   31:13   Garland:  They  are  good  at  what  they  do.  Tim  was  a  fantastic  mentor.  He  truly  cares  about  people.  Andre   is  this  person  who,  as  an  African  American  male,  he  grew  up  in  the  South,  you  know  North  Carolina,  so   he’s  a  Southern  boy  like  myself  [and]  gay.  You  know,  came  out  when  he  was  younger  so  I  kind  looked  up   to  him.  The  fact  that  he  made  it  all  the  way  to  the  top  of  the  industry.     31:35   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  your  experience  or  being  an  African  American  man  and  being  gay  in  the   South,  how  would  you  characterize  that  compared  to  maybe  the  north?  I  think  it’s  interesting  that  you   brought  that  up  that  he  was  from  the  South.   31:52   Garland:  Just,  you  know,  we’re  in  the  Bible  Belt.  I  think  that’s  a  big  part  of  what  we  go  through,  is  being   in  a  more  religious  community.  Up  north,  people  tend  to  be  more  freer  and  more  progressive  in  their   thoughts.     32:06   21     �Madison:  And  now  in  your,  I  guess,  where  you  are  in  your  life,  you  have  found  your  passion.  You’ve   nailed  that  down.  You’re  very  active  with  your  passion.  Do  you  think  that  strains  personal  relationships   at  all,  or  are  you  able  to  give  enough  time  to  relationships?   32:25   Garland:  I’m  starting  to  try  to  give  time  to  relationships  now.  There  is  someone  that  I  am  talking  to  so   we’re  just  taking  it  one  day  at  a  time  to  see  where  it  goes,  because  I’m  a  very  independent  person.  Don’t   call  me  20  times  a  day,  don’t  text  me  20  times  a  day.  I  just  need  to  have  my  time  and  me  and  then  I   think  I’ll  be  okay  in  a  relationship,  and  that’s  hard  to  find.  I’m  not  a  needy  person  when  it  comes  to   relationships.   32:47   Madison:  But  that’s  so  good,  this  is  not  really  a  question,  more  of  a  comment,  but  I  think  that  it  so   interesting  that  you  really  should  be  so  satisfied  with  yourself  before  you  pursue  a  relationship  with   someone  else.     32:55   Garland:  Absolutely.   32:56   Madison:  And  I  think  that  like  you  kind  of  have  that  covered.   32:59   Garland:  Right,  absolutely.  You  have  to  be.  I  mean,  you  have  to  be,  you  have  to  love  yourself  and  be   happy  with  yourself  before  you  can  give  love  and  happiness  to  other  people.   33:07   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  your  independence  has,  doesn’t  necessarily  scare  people  away,  but  maybe   turns  them  off...?   33:14   Garland:  I  think  it  has.  I  think  it  has  in  a  way  because  some  people  don’t  know  how  to  react  to  that,   because  they  see  they  think  that  you’re  so  independent.  You’re  off  doing  all  these  things,  and  they  don’t   know  how  to  approach  you,  or  maybe  they  think  you  don’t  need  anyone.  So  that’s  one  of  the  problems;   there’s  pros  and  cons  to  anything,  so  that  can  be  considered  a  con  because  people  have  that  perception   of  “god,  he’s  so  busy  in  the  community  and  I’d  really  love  to  talk  to  him  to  get  to  know  him  in  a  personal   way  but  he  just  seems  like  he’s  just  doing  all  these  things.”  Some  people  can  be  intimidated  by  that.   33:45   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  like  the  dating  life,  I  don’t  know  how  to  word  that,  do  you  think  that  dating   in  the  gay  community  is  different  in  the  Roanoke  Valley?   33:56   22     �Garland:  Oh  much,  much  different.   33:58   Madison:  How  would  you  explain  it?   33:58   Garland:  It’s  harder.  I  think  it’s  harder  to  meet  people  here  and  to  really  find  someone  who  is  really   serious  versus  other  places  I’ve  lived.  I  think,  you  know,  a  lot  of  people  here  tend  to  be  more  in  the   closet  than  they  were  in  other  cities  that  I’ve  lived  in.  I  mean,  we  have  yet  to  have  an  openly  gay,  I  don’t   know,  someone  on  city  council,  prominent  businessperson,  you  know.  We  have  yet  to  have  someone   who  is  openly  out  in  the  community.  I  mean,  I  think  it’s  gotten  better  for  LGBTQ  people  here  but  I  think   we  still  have  a  long  way  to  go.  I  mean  it’s  better  than  it  was  lime  20-­‐30  years  ago  or  10  years  ago  even.   34:40   Madison:  That’s  so  interesting.  Do  you  think  that  there  is  a  subgroup  of  LGBTQ  community  that’s,  not   maybe  patronized,  but  overlooked  in  Roanoke?   34:50   Garland:  Possibly,  yes,  yes.   34:52   Madison:  Going  back  to  what  you  were  saying  about  dating  here,  do  you  think  that…  are  there  gay   spaces  in  Roanoke  that  still  exist  where  you  know  you  can  go  and  there  will  be  members  of  the  LGBTQ   community  there,  beside  The  Park?   35:06   Garland:  I’m  thinking  the  Roanoke  Diversity  Center  and  then  Macado’s  is  another  place  we  go.  Well   Macado’s  downtown.  You  know,  if  you  go  there,  there’s  a  part  called  Cuba  Pete’s.  That’s  where  a  lot  of   gay  people  hang  out  in  that  part  of  it.  So  you  know  if  you  go  to  Macado’s  downtown,  you’re  pretty  much   gonna  see  other  gay  people.   35:26   Madison:  Has  it  always  been  like  that?   35:27   Garland:  For  as  long  as  I  can  remember,  yes.  It’s  always  been  an  open,  welcoming  place.  There  are  other   places  we  can  go,  but  that  tends  to  be  the  one  that  most  of  the  people  from  the  community  will   gravitate  to.     35:29   Madison:  And  what  do  you  guys  do?  Do  you  just  hang  out…?   35:41   23     �Garland:  Hang  out,  drinks,  dinner.   35:43   Madison:  Going  back  to  what  you  said  about  the  Roanoke  Diversity  Center.  How  active,  I’m  not  very   familiar  with  it,  how  active  is  the  Diversity  Center  in  the  area?   35:52   Garland:  I  mean  they  are  very  active  now.  They  are  actually  a  full  fledged  community  center  so  they   offer  workshops  and  seminars  and  all  type  of  support  groups  that  people  can  get  involved  with.   36:00   Madison:  Do  you  go  to  any  of  those?   36:02   Garland:  When  I  can,  well,  with  my  schedule  and  everything,  I  mean  I’m  not  as  involved  as…  I  just  don’t   have  the  time.  I  mean  I’ll  volunteer  for  things  if  I  have  the  time  and  they  know  that.  They  know  if  they   need  a  volunteer,  they  can  call  me.  If  I  can  do  it,  I’ll  do  it.   36:17   Madison:  Do  you  like  volunteering?   36:18   Garland:  Yes,  when  I  can.     36:21     Madison:  What  have  you  volunteered  at?   36:22   Garland:  Well,  when  they  would  have  a  booth  at  a  festival  and  they  need  someone  to  come  and  work   the  booth  to  give  out  information,  I  can  do  that.  We’ve  done  a  couple  fashion  shows  for  them  as   fundraisers  so  I’m  willing  to  do  that  as  well.   36:32   Madison:  Are  there  any  people  within  Fashionista  Roanoke  that  I  guess  work  under  you  that  are  openly   gay?   36:41   Garland:  There’s  a  couple  people  that  I  know  of.  I  don’t  know  of  any  women  that  are.  There’s  a  couple  of   guys  in  the  past  that  were.  I  knew  they  were  openly  gay,  you  know.  I  had  two  male  models  who  were   openly  gay  at  the  time.  We  have  a  transgender  model,  but  that’s  about  it.     36:55   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  there  is  a  big  transgender  population  in  Roanoke?   24     �36:59   Garland:  I  think  it’s  more  of  an  open  one  now.  I  think  they  are  becoming  more  visible  thanks  to  Caitlyn   Jenner  and  Laverne  Cox.  That’s  really  helped  out  a  lot,  too.     37:07   Madison:  Do  you  think  the  African  American  gay  community  is  visible  here?   37:09   Garland:  Not  as  much  as  I  would  like  for  it  to  be.  I  wish  it  was  more  visible.  I  still  think  there  is  a  lot  of  us   that  are  still  living  in  the  closet.     37:17   Madison:  How  do  you  think  you  get  to  that  point  of  increased  visibility?   37:20   Garland:  Well,  people  loving  and  accepting  themselves,  and  for  the  straight  African  American   community  to  be  more  open-­‐minded  and  more  accepting.  I  think  that  would  help  too,  because  like  I  said   the  church  is  the  center  of  the  African  American  community  so  if  the  churches  would  become  more   open-­‐minded  and  more  accepting  then  the  rest  of  the  community  I  believe  would  follow  suit.     37:42   Madison:  You  do  think  it  has  improved  though?   37:44   Garland:  Somewhat,  yeah.  I  think  it’s  gotten  better.   37:46   Madison:  What’s  different  from  when  you  were  younger  within  the  church?   37:50   Garland:  You  don’t  hear  as  much  negativity  as  you  did  before.  I  guess,  like  I  said,  with  LGBTQ  issues   being  so  mainstream  now,  and  more  LGBTQ  people  being  more  mainstream,  that’s  affected  a  lot  of   people.     38:05   Madison:  Throughout  your  life  have  you  ever  been  a  confidante  for  anyone  regarding  their  sexuality  if   they  didn’t  feel  comfortable  coming  out  or  anything?   38:11   Garland:  Oh  yeah.  So  over  the  years,  yeah.  Pretty  much  in  every  place  I’ve  lived  and  meeting  one  or  two   people  who  are  just  like,  you  know,  who  come  out  of  the  closet  and  need  someone  to  share  things  with   in  that  way.   25     �38:21   Madison:  I  guess,  how  were  you  supportive  for  them?  What  kind  of  things  would  you  do?   38:26   Garland:  Spending  time  with  them,  listening  to  them  if  they  had  an  issue  or  problem,  or  just  being  a   sounding  board  if  they  needed  someone  they  wanted  to  talk  to,  and  just  being  a  good  friend.   38:34   Madison:  Have  you  ever  had  someone  in  your  life  that  was  there  to  do  that  for  you?   38:38   Garland:  Different  people  throughout  my  life,  yeah.  I  mean  even  now  I  still  have  people  that  I  know  that   truly  love  and  care  about  me  and  they  want  to  see  me  be  the  best  that  I  can  be.   38:46   Madison:  Do  you  ever,  I  guess,  feel  any  struggles  that  you  still  have  to  go  to  them  about?   38:52   Garland:  Yes.  They  come  to  me;  I  come  to  them.  We  share  pleasure,  pain,  all  kinds  of  things;  what’s   going  on  their  lives.  Someone  to  talk  to  and  to  love  and  support.   39:02   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  social  media  has  affected  your  experience  as  a  gay  man  of  color?   39:08   Garland:  Yes,  I  mean  it’s  definitely  become  a  way  of  meeting  more  people.  You  really  don’t  have  to  go  to   the  clubs  anymore.   39:14   Madison:  How  do  you  meet  people  on  social  media?   39:16   Garland:  You  know,  there  are  gay  sites,  gay  meeting  sites,  just  like  the  straight  community.  Same  thing.   39:24   Madison:  Do  you,  are  you  active  on  a  lot  of  these  sites?   39:27   Garland:  A  couple  of  them.  I’m  not  on  all  of  them.   39:29   Madison:  Do  you…   26     �39:35   Garland:  I  don’t  want  to  be  [laughs]!   39:36   Madison:  When  you  connect  with  people  on  the  sites,  are  you  inclined  to  meet  up  with  them  or  do  you   mostly  just  stay  in  contact  through  social  media?   39:41   Garland:  I  like  to  meet  up  with  them  if  possible  to  meet  for  a  coffee  or  tea  or  whatever.  It’s  different   here  in  Roanoke.  In  other  cities,  it’s  been  a  lot  easier  because  you  still  have  those  people  that  seem  to   be  afraid  to  still  come  out  or  to  be  seen  or  whatever.  So  it’s  a  little  bit  tougher  here;  not  difficult  or   impossible,  but  it’s  just  a  little  bit  tougher  than  it  is  in  other  places.   40:05   Madison:  Oh,  wow,  so  you’ve  connected  with  people  on  social  media  that  are  not  even  publicly  out?   40:09   Garland:  Yes,  absolutely.   40:12   Madison:  Have  you  I  guess  not  necessarily  pursued  a  relationship  but  a  friendship  with  these  people  like   try  to  be  a  guiding  light  or  is  there  just...?   40:19   Garland:  If  they  want.  I  have  not,  but  I’m  open  to  that  if  they  want  to  have  someone  to  say  “hey,  I’m  not   out  but  I  am  looking  for  friends  and  you  seem  like  a  nice  guy.  I’d  like  to  get  to  know  you  whether  it  be  a   dating  relationship  or  just  as  friends”  so  that  they  can  have  someone  who  is  gay  like  them  that  they  can   actually  talk  to.   40:39   Madison:  So  interesting.  With  dating  and  relationships,  when  you  do  date,  do  you  find  it…  not,  do  you   go  out  in  public,  but  is  it  easy  to  date  in  public?   40:52   Garland:  I  mean  for  me  it  is.  People  figure  out  that  we’re  two  gay  guys,  whether  we’re  dating  or  friends.   That’s  totally  up  to  them  if  they  want  to  assume.  It  doesn’t  bother  me.     41:02   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  in  Roanoke  City  it  is  more  acceptable  to  be  gay  than  it  is  necessarily  in  the   County…  are  you  active  in  the  County  at  all?   41:10   27     �Garland:  I  mean,  I  have  friends  in  the  County  and  I’ve  done  events  and  stuff  but  I  think  it’s  more  in   Roanoke  maybe  it’s  a  little  more  easier  than  it  is  in  some  of  the  smaller  towns  that  surround  Roanoke.   41:24   Madison:  Is  there  a  neighborhood  in  Roanoke  currently  that  is  known  as  the  gay  neighborhood?   41:27   Garland:  Old  Southwest.   41:30   Madison:  Do  you  go  there  a  lot?   41:31   Garland:  I  have  friends  that  live  over  there,  but  normally  I  don’t  go  there  too  often  because  normally  we   just  meet  at  a  restaurant  or  out  to  eat  or  whatever.  So  not  necessarily.   41:42   Madison:  When  you  were  living  in  Miami  and  you  guys  would  go  out,  would  you  go  to  mostly  gay  clubs?   41:51   Garland:  Yes,  only  went  to  gay  clubs  when  I  lived  in  Miami.   41:53   Madison:  When  you  went  to  these  gay  clubs,  a  big  thing  that’s  kinda  been  discussed  about  gay  clubs  is   straight  people  or  heterosexuals  sort  of  invading  them.  Do  you  think  that  in  Miami  that  there  was  a   good  population  of  straight  people  at  the  gay  clubs?   42:08   Garland:  Yes,  because  you  know  gay  clubs  have  always  been  known  for  the  music  and  the  freedom  of   dancing.  Because  everybody  is  there  to  have  a  good  time.  I  mean,  you  rarely  saw  a  fight  at  a  gay  club  or   anything  like  that.  The  main  thing  is  a  lot  of  straight  people  love  going  to  the  gay  clubs  because  of  the   music  and  they  can  be  free  and  nobody  bothers  them.     42:28   Madison:  Do  you  think  when  you  go  to  Macado’s,  and  places  around  here,  are  there  many  straight   people  or  is  it  mostly  just  a  gay  space?   42:35   Garland:  In  the  Cuba  Pete’s  side  of  it,  it’s  more  of  a  gay  space.  I  mean  straight  people  are  there  of   course,  but  it’s  still  more  of  a  gay  space.     42:41   Madison:  Do  you  find  it  easy  to  identify  members  of  the  LGBTQ  community  in  Roanoke?   28     �42:46   Garland:  Sometimes.  It  depends.   42:48   Madison:  When  you  were  going  to  the  Park,  when  you  were  younger…  well,  do  you  still  go  to  The  Park?   42:55   Garland:  Only  when  my  organization  will  do  a  show  there.  But  that’s  about  it.   43:01   Madison:  When  you  were  going  there  when  you  were  younger,  did  you  notice  a  lot  of  straight  people?   43:05   Garland:  Yes,  yes,  it’s  always  been  straight  people  going  to  The  Park  for  years.     43:09   Madison:  When  you  were  younger,  were  there  other  gay  bars  and  clubs  in  the  area  that  you  ever  went   to?   43:14   Garland:  There  was,  at  the  time,  it  was  Backstreet  Café  and  then  it  was  The  Park.  That  was  all  I  knew  of.   43:19   Madison:  What  was  Backstreet  Café  like?   43:21   Garland:  It  was  a  small  little  dive  bar  basically.   43:25   Madison:  Where  you  able  to  go  to  all  these  places  when  you  were  in  high  school  or...?   43:28   Garland:  The  Park?   43:29   Madison:  Yeah.   43:30   Garland:  Umm,  not  legally  [Laughing].  Well,  I  didn’t  drink  at  the  time,  so  they  were  like,  “yeah,  just  don’t   drink.”   43:40   29     �Madison:  [Laughing]  When  you  were  younger  did  you  ever  date  when  you  were  in  high  school?  Did  you   ever  purse  a  relationship?   43:46   Garland:  [Disagrees]   43:47   Madison:  What  about  in  Boston?   43:49   Garland:  Here  and  there  but  nothing  really  serious.     43:51   Madison:  Was  it  easy  to  start  dating  when  you  came  out  or  when  you  moved  to  Boston?  I  mean  you  had   recently  come  out…   43:56   Garland:  Yeah,  yeah,  because  you  are  meeting  people,  you  know,  your  own  age.  So  if  you  wanted  to,  I   was  always  attracted  to  more  older  men  anyway.  I  never  dated  people  my  age.  It  was  always,  you  know,   someone  within  a  ten  maybe  even  twenty-­‐year  range.   44:11   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  you  were  attracted  to  older  men  because  you  were  looking  for  a  role   model?   44:16   Garland:  When  I  look  back  on  it  now,  I  think  I  was  looking  for  a  role  model  and  actually  a  father  figure.   Because  I  don’t  have  a  close  relationship  with  my  own  father.  So  when  I  look  back  on  it  now  and  I  talk  to   my  best  friend,  the  one  that  lives  in  Fort  Lauderdale,  and  he  said  the  same  thing.  That  we  both  looked— we  are  the  same  age  and  we  have  known  each  other  for  over  twenty  years—and  we  both  have  talked   about  it  a  lot,  and  he  said  “you  know  what?  I  think  the  reason  why  we  both  were  attracted  to  older  men   is  because  we  were  looking  for  a  father  figure.”  I  mean  at  the  time  I  didn’t  realize  that,  but  as  I  have   gotten  older  when  you  look  back  on  it  you  realize  that’s  probably  why  you  were  attracted  to  older  men.   Because  you  were  looking  for  that  mentor  even  that  father  figure…   44:51   Madison:  Did  you  find  a  mentor?   44:53   Garland:  There  were  some  who  were  mentors,  some  who  became  friends,  and  then  some,  you  know,   just  whatever.   44:59   30     �Madison:  Looking  back  on,  I  guess,  the  people  who  served  as  mentors,  what  do  you  really  remember   about  them  that  you  liked  that  stood  out  to  you?  What  were  you  able  to  learn  from  them?   45:10   Garland:  I  knew  they  were  there  if  I  needed  anything.  They  were  really  my  friends,  and  they  would  offer   me  advice  and  help  me  out  through,  you  know,  any  type  of  situation.  You  know,  if  I  needed  help  or  just   need  someone  to  talk  to.  They  were  there  for  me.     45:22   Madison:  Being  a  part  of  BAGLY,  do  you  think  that  trained  you  to  be  a  good  listener?  You  seem  to  be  a   very  supportive  friend.   45:28   Garland:  Yes,  yes,  because  a  lot  of  the  kids  there  were  really,  they  had  a  tough  time,  you  know.  Imagine   living  in  the  suburbs  where  you  have  a  family  that  hates  gay  people.  They  would  just  disown  you.  There   were  some  people  who  actually  their  families  disowned  them  when  they  came  out.   45:44   Madison:  Did  you  notice  like  a  big  problem  I  guess,  then,  with  homelessness,  of  your  friends?   45:50   Garland:  Not  at  that  time.  I  know  it’s  a  huge  problem.  It  probably  was  a  problem  then,  but  I  didn’t  know   anyone  really  personally  that  was  facing  it.  Most  of  them,  either  they  were  living  on  their  own  or  with   other  friends  or  relatives  or  they  were  just  living  in  the  closet  while  they  were  with  their  families.     46:07   Madison:  Well,  now  living  in  Roanoke,  what  is  the  biggest  problem,  I  guess,  that  you  see  the  LGBTQ   community  faces  here?     46:16   Garland:  Still  not  really  accepted  in  the  mainstream  as  much  as  we  should  be  accepted  in  the   mainstream.     46:25   Madison:  Do  you  ever  travel  around,  up  to  New  York  or  Boston  or  anything?   46:31   Garland:  When  I  get  a  chance  to.  Yeah,  and  DC  too.     46:33   Madison:  Are  you  treated  differently?   46:35   31     �Garland:  [Agrees]   46:36   Madison:  In  what  ways?   46:37   Garland:  People  don’t  really  seem  to  care.  If,  you  know,  sometimes  depending  on  where  you  are  or  what   race  you  are,  what  your  sexuality  is….     46:47   Madison:  Have  people  ever  sought  you  out  here  to  be  your  friend  because  of  your  sexuality?   46:52   Garland:  Possibly,  not  that  I  know  of.  I  mean  no  one  has  ever  came  and  said  to  me...  [Laughing]  “I  want   to  be  your  friend  because  you  are  gay.”  It’s  just  like,  I’m  an  open  minded  person  and  I  can  get  along  with   basically  a  lot  of  different  types  of  people,  so...     47:04   Madison:  Are  you  friends  with  a  lot  of  women?   47:07   Garland:  Yes.   47:08   Madison:  Mostly  straight  women  or  any  gay  women?   47:10   Garland:  Mostly  straight  women,  very  few  lesbian  or  bisexual  women.  I  have  maybe  one  lesbian  friend   here.  Everyone  else,  all  the  other  women  are  heterosexual.     47:20   Madison:  Are  you  friends  with  any  African  American  members  of  the  LGBTQ  community  here?   47:24   Garland:  Yes,  I  have  a  group  of  friends  that  are  African  American.     47:27   Madison:  Where,  is  there  a  place  where  members—I  know  this  is  a  very  specific  question—but  where   African  American  members  of  the  LGBTQ  community  go  here?   47:39   Garland:  They  would  go  to  The  Park,  or  they  would  go  to  Macado’s  or  places  like  that.   32     �47:46   Madison:  Looking  back  on  high  school,  I  guess  first  of  all,  was  your  high  school  predominantly  African   American,  or  was  it...?   47:55   Garland:  Predominantly  Caucasian.     47:58   Madison:  Do  you  think  that  you  struggled  more  there  because  of  your  race  or  because  of  your  sexuality?   48:02   Garland:  I  think  both.  It’s  hard  for  me  to  put  one  over  the  other.  At  that  time  I  think  it  was  just  both.   48:06   Madison:  Were  you  bullied?   48:07   Garland:  No,  I  was  fortunate  enough  not  to  be,  you  know,  physically  attacked  or  bullied.  You  know,   other  than  just  the  whole  social  isolation  was  the  big  issue.   48:17   Madison:  If  you,  I  guess,  I  am  kind  of  interested…  where  do  you  see  yourself  in  the  next  five  or  ten   years?  What  do  you  see  yourself  doing?   48:25   Garland:  Making  Fashionista  Roanoke  the  best  that  it  can  be  and  that’s  the  journey  that  I  am  on  right   now,  for  this  year  and  God  willing  beyond.  Just  to  focus  on  making  it  a  non-­‐profit  and  turning  it  into  a   viable  business.   48:36   Madison:  What  are  some  of  the  things  that  Fashionista  Roanoke  does?     48:40   Garland:  We  produce  fashion  shows  and  fashion  related  events  for  nonprofit  organizations  to  help  them   raise  money,  and  bringing  the  community  together,  too.  We  are  community  focused.     48:50   Madison:  I  really  like  that.  Have  any  youth  come  to  Fashionista  Roanoke,  kind  of  like  as  an  outlet,  similar   to  how  you  were  when  you  were  younger?   49:09   33     �Garland:  No,  I  think  most  of  the  ones  that  do  come,  they  want  to  get  into  fashion  or  they  want  to  model.   So  it  mainly  has  been  that  not  so  much  as,  you  know,  I  want  to  come  here  because  I  can  be  more  open   about  my  sexuality.  Not  yet.   49:21   Madison:  [Laughing]   49:22   Garland:  As  far  as  I  know.  I  haven’t  heard  anyone  say  that  to  me.     49:25   Madison:  If  you  could  have  one  thing  recorded  into  this  oral  history  that  you  think  everyone  should   know,  whether  it’s  about  your  race,  or  sexuality,  or  queer  people  of  color,  any[thing].  What  would  you   want  to  have  kind  of  encapsulated  in…?     49:43   Garland:  I  just  want  them  to  know  that  you  start  off  loving  yourself  and  accepting  yourself.  That’s  where   it  starts.  Once  you  love  and  accept  yourself,  I  think  that  can  also  bring  people  to  love  and  accept  you.  If   they  don’t,  don’t  worry  about  it.  Because  you  know  God  loves  you,  you  know  other  people,  focus  on  the   people  that  do  love  and  care  about  you  and  support  you.  Don’t  worry  about  the  naysayers  or  the  haters.   Focus  on  the  people  that  do  love  and  care  about  you  and  that  truly  are  your  friend.  That’s  where  your   focus  needs  to  be.   50:11   Madison:  Okay,  I  think  that’s  a  good  place  to  end.  Thank  you.       [END]   34     � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Garland Gravely Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Garland Gravely Interviewer: Madison Pinckes, Erik Weed Interviewee: Garland Gravely Date: 19 February 2017 Location: Home of Garland Gravely Total Duration: 50:15 Transcription prepared by: Dacotah McGaffic, J.T. Shrader Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Garland Gravely, Madison Pinckes, Erik Weed, Dacotah McGaffic, J.T. Shrader Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GravelyGarland https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3438/Jordan_Robin.MP3 d30ee4ab93bb5457c54c4494d84cf9ec https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3438/Jordan_Robin.1.pdf b19e70fe1156f7ff3cf4bcc21886a085 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Robin Jordan February 22, 2017 Interviewer: Nick Dillon Interviewee: Robin Jordan Date: February 22, 2017 Location: Fintel Library, 221 College Lane, Salem, Virginia Present: Robin Jordan, Nick Dillon, and Hannah Kolcz Total: 01:06:29 Transcribed by: Yvonne Gravely, Hannah Kolcz, and Nick Dillon 0:00:00 0:05:39 0:12:27 0:21:15 0:28:37 0:40:00 0:46:57 0:49:07 0:55:20 1:03:11 1:05:25 Living in Lynchburg in the 1970s; moving away, then eventually moving to Roanoke in 1989; Roanoke’s gay scene Discrimination (or lack thereof) against gay people in Roanoke; workplace issues; involvement in LGBTQ community Living in South Carolina; racial issues; tenant issues involving a slumlord Moving to Roanoke; loving the mountains, the outdoors; Meeting Martha in high school (1960s), in Lynchburg; attending James Madison University, while Martha attended Bridgewater College; discovering her identity as a “lesbian” General topics related to gay identity and community; coming out now versus back then Advice for young LGBTQ people Exploring her gender identity as a child (1950s-1960s); learning about transgender people (mid-1960s); sexism and patriarchy Experiencing homophobia; sexism in the workplace and hiring; wage discrimination Making long-term relationships work Conclusion 1   �Nick Dillon - (ND) Robin Jordan - (RJ) 0.00 ND: This is Nick Dillon, interviewing Robin Jordan. It is February 22, approximately 5:30 p.m. And we will be discussing her life in regards to the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project. How are you doing today Robin? 0.24 RJ: I am doing fine, thank you. How are you today? 0.26 ND: I’m pretty well, thank you. 0.27 RJ: Good. 0.28 ND: So can you tell me a little bit about yourself? Your history here, and your place in the LGBTQ+ community? 0.41 RJ: Well, I didn’t grow up here. I actually grew up in Lynchburg. And Martha and I moved to South Carolina for her to go to graduate school, and then to Memphis, Tennessee, where she worked for a while before she got sick. And, I finished getting my degree, and we moved here to Roanoke. I heard a lot about Roanoke growing up. And, when we were still living in Lynchburg, in the [19]70s, we did use to occasionally come up to The Park. It would usually be a group of us that would get in a car and all drive up together and spend an evening at The Park because there wasn’t any place else back then. So, as far as a place in the community when we first moved here, there wasn’t a whole lot going on except for the Metropolitan Community Church and bar life. Even though we were both atheists, we decided to go to the church because we are definitely not bar people [laughter]. I can’t stand being around smoke, and at that time, you know, we didn’t have smoking laws for indoors. So, it was just [so] you couldn’t bear to be around places like bars back then. So, we got connected with the Metropolitan Community Church. We don’t still go, but we still have friends that we met in the church. We still don’t know a whole lot of people, but, like I said, we are still friends with some people we met a long time ago. And, periodically, we do meet some new people. 2.28 ND: So would you say that Martha, and then the Metropolitan Community Church, were your ties to Roanoke? I mean, you weren’t from here? 2.36 RJ: No, I wasn’t from here. But, we did move back here when I got a job here in Roanoke. We wanted to leave Memphis, and we were pretty far away from our parents. At that time, both of our parents still lived in Lynchburg. Although, right 2   �before we moved back Martha’s mother died. And, my father had cancer. And, I did not like being so far away and didn’t want to keep working where I was working, because we didn’t want to stay there forever. So, I applied for jobs here, and got a position here in Roanoke. And we’ve been here since 1989. 3.24 ND: That is amazing. So, you got here. You got the job, and then you came back and you’ve been here since 1989? 3.34 RJ: Yeah. 3.34 ND: About when did you arrive in Roanoke? For the first time? 3.41 RJ: It was August 1, 1989 was when I drove up. Martha was already here because her mother had just died. And, she was with her father in Lynchburg. And spending some time with him. And, so my brother-in-law, actually my parents, flew him down to Memphis, and he helped me load up the truck after I was successful with my interview. He helped me load up the truck and drive it up, and actually it was my birthday [when] we drove up. I started my first day of work on August 1st. So it was birthday we drove up before that. It was quite a way to spend a birthday, I tell you [laughter]. Driving everything you own up from Memphis to Roanoke. 4.29 ND: 4.30 RJ: Yeah. We didn’t get to move into the apartment right away. Because the tenants—the landlord who owned the apartment lived next door to the house. We rented a house in Salem. And, as a matter of fact, if you are on West 4th Street, it is the only house on West 4th Street. So it was quite interesting. But, we rented this house, and he found out after the tenants had moved out, that he a very bad bug problem and didn’t want us to move in until he finished treating for bugs and everything. My parents were on a trip, and I used to commute back and forth from Lynchburg every day for a couple of weeks until we… because I had to wait for weekends to have time to try to get the house so we could live in it. And, so it was kind of odd that we did that. We moved kind of slowly, it took a little time, to be able to move into the house. So, for the first few weeks, probably three weeks, I commuted every day from Lynchburg to Roanoke, and then back again. 5.39 ND: Oh, wow. That is a really long commute. 5.41 RJ: Yeah. That made for a long day. 5.44 ND: Did you ever feel… I mean you and Martha were living together and Martha… It has to be an experience. 5.50 RJ: Um, hm. 3   �5.50 ND: …is your wife, well… 5.52 RJ: Partner. 5.53 ND: Partner. 5.54 RJ: Yeah. 5.54 ND: So, do you ever feel that, when you came to Roanoke, that any opportunities or jobs passed you by because y’all were living together? I mean did you feel any sense of discrimination? 6.13 RJ: Probably not so much here. I kind of didn’t know how much I could say to co-workers and stuff. I remember, when I very first started, one of my co-workers asked me what my relationship with Martha was. And, I didn’t really know what to say because I didn’t know him, and Martha was really sick at the time. It was not really like having a partner per se at the time. She didn’t ever know what was going on. And, so, I told him that we were like sisters, which we were kind of by that time. Kind of like sisters in a way. When you’re a lesbian feminist, you think of other women as your sisters, so it seemed like not a totally dishonest answer at the time. But it didn’t—I didn’t have any problems exactly at work. And, I work for the State of Virginia, and they came out with a policy as far as discrimination and harassment and stuff like that, included they don’t allow you to harass people for their sexual orientation, so actually for work it didn’t seem to be a problem. And, we’ve probably had less trouble here than anywhere else that we’ve lived. I think partly [it] is because time has gone by, and when we first lived together it was a whole lot more trouble than it seems like it’s been here. 8.07 ND: So, you would consider Roanoke one of the more friendly places? 8.10 RJ: Yeah, I’ve been really glad that this is where we ended up. 8.16 ND: So, when you have been here, you have mentioned The Park, or it was either The Park or the Metropolitan Community Church. 8.25 RJ: Well there were a couple of bars in town, The Park being one of them, or the Metropolitan Community Church. We just didn’t find any other groups, but then later we found out about PFLAG [Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays]. And, we were associated with PFLAG for a while and even gave a presentation one time. We were guest speakers at one of the PFLAG meetings as a long-term lesbian couple. And so we did go to those meetings some. 8.59 ND: So, it seems to me that your identity here in Roanoke is not really 4   �specifically the fact that you’re a lesbian or however you identify. I don’t want to make an assumption. But so do you think here it is that you could be like any other couple, right? 9.20 RJ: Well, we’ve always been at least somewhat “out.” And yeah, we have identified ourselves as a lesbian couple. 9.35 ND: I mean, labels— 9.36 RJ: Yeah. 9.37 ND: I just, I think it’s interesting that… I would just like to hear more about your time in Roanoke. So, you got your job here? 9.47 RJ: Um, hm. 9.47 ND: And, can you tell us what you do? 9.52 RJ: Well, I’d rather not disclose the department that I work for. But, I do— trying to think of how to put it [laughter] that won’t disclose it—I tried to think of this ahead of time actually, and I thought I came up with something that I could say. I do a job that’s involved with science. And I really love it. So, it involves a lot of math and a lot of science. 10.33 ND: Okay, that’s a good answer, there’s no wrong way to answer. 10.36 RJ: Yeah. 10.38 ND: Now, you said that you have a few LGBTQ+ friends. And people you associate with. Do you see them in similar positions? Do you notice any kind of niches that form in the community that you might identify with? 11.02 RJ: Well, we have one of our friends has actually worked at the Council of Community Services. And they serve a lot of the LGBTQ community. They do AIDS testing, and they are open to people working there that are LGBTQ [laughter]. So, and we’ve visited there, and I think that he definitely has a positive experience working in Roanoke. His partner doesn’t work in Roanoke. But works in another close-by city. And I don’t really know what it’s like at work, but it tends to be manufacturing jobs, and I don’t know really what his experience is. When he’s away from work, I think when he’s home, he is just not at work. And that’s a good thing. 12.15 ND: I think we all think that, don’t we? 5   �12.16 RJ: Yeah. 12.16 ND: So, I mean, in the Southwest Virginia community, it is not just Roanoke… 12.27 RJ: Um, hm. 12.28 ND: …but did y’all ever get to travel any other places besides Roanoke? I mean, in college, for example? 12.34 RJ: Um, hm. 12.34 ND: Did you have any interactions here for college or anything else? 12.44 RJ: Well, we went, the both of us… I started off at community college. My parents didn’t have money to send me to a four-year school. My mother put me through community college and the rest of my schooling on her cafeteria job. [laughter]. But it’s kind of funny, I ended up working with people who had the same kind of job as people who went to, you know, Ivy League schools. So, it really ended up not making any difference in the end as far as that went. I got just as good a job for my education… but I am trying to remember exactly what the question was [laughter]! 13.31 ND: 13.34 RJ: No, you did, but I kind of wandered off [laughter]. You were asking maybe about other places that we’ve lived? What the experience has been like? 13.45 ND: 13.50 RJ: Yeah I think it was. In a lot of ways, I think when we lived in Memphis, we knew people who were gay in Memphis. It wasn’t bad there. We were pretty out there as well. South Carolina is a little bit of a different story. But, we lived there, I mean [laughter] I remember when we first moved there, we drove down to look at the Capitol. There was this flag flying on the top of the Capitol building, and it’s a rebel flag. And, we were like, “what the hell have we’ve gotten into,” you know? But it was sort of… it was strange living there. I mean, it was so different from anything else we’d ever experienced. It was the first time we’d actually gotten out of Lynchburg, you know. We were so happy to get out of Lynchburg. But, it was strange, because, at that time in South Carolina, it was like there were a lot of racial issues going on but nobody really discussed them or anything. So, being kind of that backward as far as racial issues, you can imagine how backward it was as far as any other kind of issues. You know, I don’t remember specifically having problems except for a landlord we had. Our first landlord [laughter] turned out that he was somewhat of a crook. He had a bunch of different housing, and he would—he had I am sorry. I probably did not make it clear. So, I mean, you said that Roanoke was the most open? 6   �this thing, and we did not know this until—what he did was, he had a thing called “insta-rent,” and we just got this the regular way answering an ad in the newspaper but he did have this promise that he would give to people that if you would pay him a certain amount of money, he would have you in one of his rental properties within a very short period of time. And what he did was: he had papers sitting in the courthouse, with renters’ names on it for eviction notices, and that all he had to do was go and sign them and he’d get people evicted like that. And then he could move other people into the rental property. Well, we fortunately only had a three-month lease, but when we moved in we found out there were odd things there like you could not get the water or the electricity—it was all one, all of the utilities were in a public utility, not like a private thing. You know, it was all a public utility, and if the previous tenant didn’t pay their bill, you could not get your utilities cut on until you covered their bill. So, we had a pay all of this money just to get our electricity cut on. And then, it turned out, part of the house didn’t even have electricity. It was just… and so we never could get a hold of him again. The number we had called in to answer the ad and to meet him and sign the lease was disconnected. He had no other way to get in touch with him. He did not have an address, when you sent the rent in, everybody that deposited the rent deposited it in somebody else’s mailbox. And he’d come around and pick them up. So you couldn’t find him, you couldn’t ever find him again. So, when we went to move, we found one of the people I worked with had a rental house. Nice rental house. And somebody was moving out and he was looking for somebody to move in. It worked out great for us. So we tried to get a hold of the landlord to get our deposit money back, and being at the University of South Carolina, Martha was able to use the legal department there. You know, they’d have law students who would work on problems as practice, and so we were telling them we couldn’t find our landlord to talk to him about getting our deposit back. And you know all this sort of stuff, and we were moving out before the last month. And, you know, we thought maybe we could pay the last month’s rent and get our deposit and get out. He had the hardest [time], and he used to be an investigative reporter before he went to law school. He had the hardest time finding this guy. And when he did, he found out about all of this “insta-rent” stuff. And he found that he had our names ready to evict at any moment, and all this kind of stuff. But when he was able to speak—he found out who this guy’s lawyer was. And so he spoke to this guy through the guy’s lawyer, and that guy said if you—at this time, I with working water plants at this time, which involved having a state license to be a water plant operator. And if you have a state license, you could lose it if you were not in compliance with every state law there was, including the law against homosexuals. So, he could have, if he wanted to, he could have—and he threatened this—he could have reported us and had my state license taken away and made me lose my job. So, he was threatening to 7   �do that. 19.55 ND: And is that part of the reason why you all left South Carolina? 19.59 RJ: Well, no. We left when Martha found a job. 20.08 ND: That’s so just… 20.09 RJ: Yeah, I know. It was amazing. South Carolina had odd laws. Their court system doesn’t include a—what do you call it—small claims. They don’t have small claims court. So if we wanted to try to get our money back from him later, we would have to wait until it came up on the circuit court docket, which, to the best of this guy’s knowledge, we would have had to come back to South Carolina probably in about a year and a half or so. And everything was stacked in favor of the landlords. Different states are different like that. 20.55 ND: That is insane. 20.55 RJ: I know. 20.56 ND: So, y’all came back to Roanoke when Martha found a job? 21.03 RJ: We moved... I found the job in Roanoke. We moved to Memphis when Martha found a job. 21.08 ND: OK. So, y’all moved to Roanoke when you found the job? 21.12 RJ: Yeah. Yes. 21.15 ND: Now, I guess comparing that to South Carolina, did you ever feel like the environment, the laws, just the places in Roanoke were not really accepting or— what is the word? 21.33 RJ: I can’t remember having any specific problems in Roanoke. Maybe Martha will remember some that I haven’t thought of. But, we did kind of worry when we moved out where we are now because it’s very rural, and we live in an extremely redneck neighborhood. And so we were a little bit worried when we first moved out there what might happen to us. When we used to go to the church there were two women in the church who had problems in their neighborhood. A country neighborhood. And so we were a little bit worried that maybe we would have problems. But, our next-door neighbor was just really nice, and everybody, you know after a while, we seem to be getting accepted into the community. And our next-door neighbor seen us one day about something and his wife said “I just want y’all to know you don’t need to worry about anything. We all know you’re gay. 8   �[laughter] Nobody cares.” And she said, “My brother’s gay.” 22.48 ND: Well, I’m glad you had a really good time. I mean— 22.52 RJ: Yeah. 22.52 ND: Is there anything about Roanoke that you believe that made it more accepting than South Carolina or any other places? 23.01 RJ: Well, it’s weird, you would expect a university city to be more advanced or more liberal or something but I don’t know. I think Roanoke’s just, I mean, golly, they had a black mayor long before we ever moved here. I don’t know. Roanoke, if you look like after the elections, if you look at the election maps that show what different areas [are and] how they vote. Roanoke is always very liberal. You know, there will be this little blue dot in the middle of all this red stuff. So, you know, not having grown up here, I don’t really know how it exactly started being like that because Lynchburg certainly isn’t like that. 23.53 ND: It’s interesting since you are not from Roanoke, I think, then, you come in with a different perspective. 24.00 RJ 24.01 ND: I mean, even if it wasn’t, I’m glad that there weren’t any problems. But, were there any experiences that made you fall in love with Roanoke, if you have? I would like to just… 24.12 RJ: I tell you what, Memphis is as flat as it can be. The river is super cool. I mean going down and seeing the Mississippi is one of the coolest things. If you visit Memphis, there is so much to see and so much of a cultural experience. You know, that’s where the blues were born, and that’s where—we weren’t Elvis fans really but still—you know, there is a lot of that kind of rock and roll history, and music history, and just the culture of the river. Taking riverboat rides, it’s fun to visit there, but it was very odd living there because it wasn’t really like a southern city. Like what we were used to. We’ve never lived outside of the south, and it was almost like it was more of a northern city. Um, hm. But, the first thing that came into my head every single morning when I would wake up was, you know, I would wake up, it was the beginning of the day, and I would kind of open my eyes and I would stretch and I would think: there are no mountains here. I grew up around the mountains, and that was my favorite thing to do as a little kid, the days my parents would take drives up on the Blue Ridge Parkway. And I just loved the mountains. I used to tell my mother, “oh, when I want to grow up, I want to have a house on the side of the mountain.” You know, that kind of thing. So 9   �moving here, and there’s all of these mountains. It just… there’s a hill behind my house, you remember that hill? 25.57 ND: Um, hm. 25.57 RJ: There’s a hill up there, and in the winter—I mean, of course when there’s leaves on the trees you can’t do it—but, in the winter, if you’re up there, you can stand in one place and just turn around and there are mountains everywhere you look. Just, there they are. I’m surrounded with them. 26.17 ND: So it’s like a dream come true. 26.17 RJ: It is. It is. 26.18 ND: Were y’all completely surrounded by mountains in where you grew up? 26.25 RJ: No, I could see mountains, but I remember sometimes sitting in my bathroom, at home, when I was a little kid, and looking out the window, and wishing I could see mountains out of that window. Because the mountains, you could see them from Lynchburg, but they were not right on top of you. I knew they were close by, and when Martha and I were still living in Lynchburg, I would get off from work, and we would hastily pack a, you know, picnic sandwich you know and take the dog, and in 35 minutes we could be up on the Parkway. And, we’d hike up a trail and stop somewhere and eat our picnic dinner. And, you know, hike back. I remember we used to like to stop at a place on the Parkway and watch the sunset. It was just, being out in the [mountains], we missed it. Because when we lived in Lynchburg, before we moved away, in our twenties when we were still living in Lynchburg, we used to backpack. And we had missed that so much. 27.31 ND: 27.32 RJ: We weren’t physically—Martha especially wasn’t physically able to do that anymore—but still, just being able to get out in them and hike on the trails and that kind of thing. I’m such a nature person [laughter]. I like being outside more than anything. One of my first memories when I was a little kid, was—this sounds really silly but you know how little kids are—and I’m an atheist now, but I grew up, you know, in a religious family. And I remember just, you know, being in my bedroom, and I’d hear the doves, and there was a steep hill and woods and everything all around us and the backyard. And it wasn’t far from the James River. You could see the river in the winter, through the trees. And I remember the doves calling. And I could hear them out there. They were just [dove call: coo, coo, coo, coo]. And I thought, that’s God calling me to go into the woods [laughter]. 28.36 ND: Oh, wow. So you feel at home here? 10   �28.37 RJ: Yeah. Yeah, it felt like I came home here. 28.42 ND: That’s wonderful. So, that begs the question then, so, you’ve known Martha for how long now? 28.49 RJ: Fifty years. 28.49 ND: How did y’all meet? 28.51 RJ: In high school [laughter]. 28.53 ND: You were from Lynchburg? 28.55 RJ: Yes. 28.56 ND: And, Martha was from Roanoke, wasn’t she? 28.59 RJ: Well, she’s lived… Her father worked for Appalachian [Power Company] and traveled around the state. Well, in this kind of region. You know, they lived in Lynchburg, in Roanoke, in Collinsville, so… in this region anyway. He had an opportunity at one time when she was in high school to move to Alaska, and they seriously discussed this as a family. But, I don’t know why the decision was made not to take them up on the Alaska move. Maybe, he was just getting older and didn’t want to make that big a move anymore. I really don’t know. But, so, she lived in Lynchburg when she was small and in Roanoke when she was small. And then before she went to high school she was in Collinsville. Then they moved back to Lynchburg. So that’s where I met her. They moved back I think when she started the 8th grade. But I met her, first day of school in the 10th grade. But that wasn’t the first time I saw her. I saw her the year before. She says I stalked her. [laughter]. I was out in the hall one day from home room, and I saw this girl walking down the hall, and I thought, “I really like her. I’d like to be her friend.” And I, let me tell you, I’m like one of the shyest people. It’s a good thing you came and visited with me, you know, before we went to do this [oral history], because I would have had a harder time. Because I’m really shy. This isn’t normal for me. But I thought, “I’d really like to be her friend.” And “whatever it is that’s really different about me, I think it’s… I think she’s like that, too!” I didn’t know what it was. We’d never heard of lesbians or anything, you know, back then. We [laughter] were totally innocent. But, the next day, I went out in the hall to see if I could figure out where she came 11   �from, cause she kind of disappeared through the crowds, you know. So I thought, “Well, she didn’t show up. She didn’t show up in that part of the hall.” And, so, I thought, the next day, I thought well maybe she’s coming up the staircase over here. Or, the next day, I thought the staircase over there. You know, when I kept trying to see her again. And I never saw her again that year. And so the first day of school, in 10th grade, I walked into my English class and there she was. Sitting in a seat, with an empty seat in the front of the row, right in front of her. And I just walked right over and plopped into that seat and I turned around and I said “Hi.” And she was shy, too. Although, she’s not as shy as I am. But she said she just, you know, didn’t know why I was coming up and talking to her. But it made her feel really shy. And she kind of put her head down and went “Hi.” [laughter] And I so I tried to get her to talk. I said, “I like your pocketbook.” [laughter] She said, “Thank you,” and she just did her head down again, like she was just not really sure she should talk, you know. But, I finally got her to talk to me. And the next thing I knew, she invited me to come over and visit for the day. And I remember my mother, you know, that morning I woke up, and she said, “You are really excited about going to your friend’s house today,” you know. I said, “Yes, I am.” [laughter] So that is… that’s one of our anniversaries that we like to celebrate. Well, I kind of started it, I guess. Cause I’m the romantic of us two. And so, the first day of school, sometimes Martha will forget. I will always take [work] off. Back then, we didn’t do school before Labor Day. So, I would always— at work—I would often take the day that would be the first school day after Labor Day. Usually it’s like Salem City schools, they do that day, you know, and I would take the day off. And I would say let’s go downtown, and I would surprise her with lunch or breakfast or something with a little gift. And then, she’d say, “Why are you getting me this?” And I’d say, “We met on this day” [laughter]. So anyway, this last day of school—on this last first day of school, this past fall—it was fifty years ago. 33.31 ND: That is incredible. So, this was high school, so, y’all didn’t go to the same college? 33.38 RJ: No, but like I said, I stayed home for two years to go to community college. But, when it was time to—and my parents always told me I was going to have to go to a state school. They couldn’t afford to send me anywhere else—so, I was looking up in catalogs, seeing all the state schools, and I noticed, “Wow, this one is only eight miles from Bridgewater!” So that’s the one I applied to, and that’s the one I got into [laughter]. 34.05 ND: Did you apply to that school because Martha was going to Bridgewater? 34.11 RJ: Yeah, yeah, and it seemed like the right size. Larger state schools, like UVA 12   �[The University of Virginia] or [Virginia] Tech, although back then it was called VPI [Virginia Polytechnic Institute], they all seemed kind of big, intimidating to me. Martha went to a very small school. But, this one was… it seemed like it was one that I could, you know, it didn’t intimidate me. So, it worked out pretty well; except for the [fact that] I wanted to be a biologist, and I had no idea that this biology department was actually a pre-med biology course that I didn’t even realize that until last year [laughter]. It’s so weird! I always wondered why biology was so strange there. But, then I was talking to somebody about it last year, and they said, “well, you know that’s a pre-med course?” And, I’m going, “oh yeah, that would explain that girl that sat down next to me in class, and looked over at me the first day of school and said, “Do I smell like cadaver?” [laughter] 35.20 ND: That is hilarious. Well, so you were going to a school eight miles from Bridgewater? Were you and Martha talking still? 35.34 RJ: Yeah, and we would spend weekends together; and it was during that period of time that we started sleeping together. We liked each other a lot, you know? We enjoyed being with each other a whole lot. But, we kind of thought we made all this up; we thought we kind of invented it, you know [laughter]? 35.57 ND: How did you like come to understand that—I know that there weren’t as many resources available. How did you figure out—well, “figure out” in quotations, that who y’all were… proved to have other people around you that were… 36.19 RJ: Well, Martha was doing a term paper in one of her sociology classes; it was a minority relations class, and she didn’t want to do a minority that everybody else was doing, that was a popular minority. There is one, but you know, she knew nobody would pick homosexuals, and so she thought, “Well I’ll pick homosexuals, nobody else would pick them, you know? I’ll be the only one!” So, it was odd because she had to try to find books in the library and she looked; she found a few books in the card catalog, but they were never on the shelves! And, she figured, “you know, they can’t possibly be all checked out for this long!” So she finally went to the librarian and asked, “Why aren’t these books ever on the shelves?” And she looked at them and she said, “Well they’re locked in a vault; you can’t have them” [laughter]. So, Martha’s professor ended up having to get them out for her, and they were terrible books! They were from the [19]30s and ‘40s and ‘50s and you know the information was very outdated. So she had found out there was a gay student union in Charlottesville, and her professor offered to drive us over there for the meetings. So, they gave her some names of people she can write to. And, she began writing and we began collecting a whole lot of information. At that time, there were still some of the really old gay newspapers that were still being published, and some of the old lesbian newspapers that were still being published way back in those, you know, early [19]70s. And, so she was getting all this stuff. I mean, we met people, you know… some of the people who were activists way back in that time. We had phone numbers of people that who were nationally known. We could call them up and talk to them and stuff like that. But, when she was first trying to get all of this information together and we’d been looking at, you know—and 13   �she’d write to one person and they would give her another few names that she could write to, and those people would give her a few more names. So we were beginning to get this collection of information and I remember we were sitting on the floor one night and we had it all spread around us and we were just—we sort of looked at each other and we said, “you know, I think this is about us!” [laughter] So that’s how we figured it out! [laughter] But, what was good about it was all of this information, instead of like the books that had been in the library, this was all positive information; this was from people who were activists, and people who believed that they should be free to love who and how they wanted. So, it was good, I think, in a way that we ended up with very positive information about ourselves and that’s how we started out. And I’d already moved in with Martha and told my parents that I loved Martha and if she was a man I would want to marry her and all this stuff. I still had no clue. 40.00 ND: How do you feel knowing [that] all of this new information at the time changed your relationship with Martha? Do you think that it did? 40.11 RJ: I think… [pause]… that’s kind of an interesting question. I had never really thought about that. I think it probably did in a way because we began to not feel isolated. We knew there were other people out there. We knew there was a culture out there that we could be a part of. And I think that we didn’t feel that way before. We didn’t know anybody else like us. Or, that anybody else like us even existed. So, that was a revelation that I think did make a difference. 40.54 ND: Do you think that it helped you—I don’t want to say go through life more easily—but, made you less scared? How did you feel? 41.06 RJ: Well, it still was a little scary that people might find out, you know, because there still were—for instance, later when we moved to South Carolina—consequences if someone found out that I had a state license. And yet, I was a homosexual which was against the law. To have a state license, boy, they really had some leverage over hair dressers because they had to have state licenses. I imagine that a lot of hair dressers— because there are a fair representation of homosexuals—gay men—and possibly gay women who are hair dressers. And, I feel like it  probably… yeah, they probably felt really worried about their livelihood, as well. It’s hard to feel like someone has that much leverage over your life, I think. 42.17 ND: Did you use any of the resources—I mean, you’ve told me about your relationship with the Metropolitan Community Church and the bars here in Roanoke—do you feel that those, I’m going to say, tools helped you meet new people? Or, just come to accept it and live your life? 42.42 RJ: I think it’s important to have other people in your life who are gay and lesbian, I really do. And, as time went on, we began to know some transgender people and I think just having that diversity of acquaintances and knowledge of people out there 14   �is important for a sense of community. 43:15 ND: So, I’m curious after finding out this information and where you are now—if you had to look back on your experiences in Roanoke, in South Carolina, in all of the places that you have been, can you talk to me about how you think it would be different now, if you had to go through it all over again? 43:44 RJ: Like today? 43:44 ND: Yes. 43:48 RJ: Well, I think to begin with, I think that knowing that there is hatred out there might make it harder because, I mean, I’ve read books by people [pause] who grew up later than we did and grew up with a self-loathing that we didn’t know when we were younger, and ended up self-mutilating because they felt like they should be punished for the feelings they were having. And we never went through that. And I think that—and yet, I think that also having the more positive resources out there more readily available, I think that that can help overcome it. I think it’s a real… I just don’t understand why people hate so much. You know why do people want to hate people who don’t do anything to them? I don’t understand that. And, I don’t know exactly… there would be some negative parts to it and some positive parts to it. In a way, it was sort of a blessing being ignorant about the whole thing or naïve about the whole thing to start off with. I think there was a certain bliss in it, almost, that people might not have today. And, I mean, I let my parents know what was going on before my parents realized that there were words for it. What if they had been more prepared with having gotten ideas from preachers and the news media? Or, anything else. And gotten ideas that preconceive them against what I turned out to be. I don’t know how that might have made a difference and how they made—my mother, she’s English, and the English are a lot more—even being conservative as she is—I think the English have a lot more tolerance for a wide variety of deviance [laughter], if you want to say that. I mean, look at English movies, there is a lot more sexually going on in them and a lot more titillation that’s more accepted. Societywise, we seem to be a lot more prudish in America than they are in England, so maybe it would have been the same as far as my parents, I don’t know, but… 46.57 ND: Do you ever think that, again, knowing what you have been through, do you think that—I don’t want to say that your life would have been easier. Do you think that you would have—I don’t want this to seem repetitive—navigated the hoops that you had to go through? …I mean, not like coming out… 47.22 RJ: Well, I think I know what you are saying. And, I think that, yeah, I think that it would have been easier than it was for us because they’re paths that people have already taken that we were… Of course, if you’re going through the woods and you have to pick your own trail, it’s a lot slower and a lot harder to navigate the underbrush and everything else, than it is to take a hike up on the Appalachian Trail where a lot of people 15   �have walked before you. 48:02 ND: I like that analogy [laughter]. So, I mean, you’ve been on this trail for a while and you’ve seen a lot of the trees, a lot of the rocks. Now, someone who has just figured out that they are gay or lesbian have just set foot on the path. What kind of advice would you give them, knowing everything you’ve been through and you have lived in so many different places, I mean, you’ve seen a lot, you’ve been part of the MCC, you’ve seen the clubs—and I’m assuming not just [in] Roanoke either, but… 48.48 RJ: Yeah. 48.48 ND: What would you say to them? What would your advice be? 48.50 RJ: Don’t ever ever hate yourself… [pause] Don’t ever let somebody make you do that to yourself. 49.07 ND: In terms of your own life, do you ever feel like you did that for being gay? Do you ever… 49.17 RJ: I have been different since I was a little kid [laughter]. I knew that something was different about me. So, sometimes I’m not real happy with myself, but it’s not because of that. It’s because of other things. I mean, we probably all go through that. But, I remember when I was a really little kid, I wanted to be mistaken for a boy. Probably about the time I was about four years old. That’s when I began to think I would like to be mistaken for a boy. I did not like having to wear dresses, which we had to wear to school. I liked it when someone thought that I was a boy. And I climbed trees. And, although, well I guess it was a little after the time I was four years old because actually in Kindergarten, I promised every boy in my Kindergarten class that I would marry them. [laughter] But, shortly after that, I began to want to wear my brother’s leftover clothes. You know, the ones that he outgrew. I would cut off his khakis and wear them around for shorts and stuff like that. And, I remember in the eighth grade, one time, we had a library—we went into the library to do a project with periodicals. We had to write a paper, and I remember looking through the periodicals—this would have been, let’s see, maybe [19]65, I can’t remember exactly what [year], yeah ‘64 because ‘66 was tenth grade, so ninth grade would have been ‘65; so eighth grade would have been ‘64—and I remember going into the library. And I was just going through periodicals trying to find something that interested me. And, I came across an article about someone—and I think it was maybe in Sweden or in one of those countries—who had undergone a sex change operation. And I thought this was the most fascinating thing that I had ever read. But, I had enough instinct to know that would not be the article to write about for class [laughter]. So, I found something else to write about. But I read every word in that article. And, I used to go home from school and just talk to 16   �my mother. Just chat. She used to like to fix dinner, and I would just sit there and chat, you know. And so, I remember telling her about this article. And, I remember saying that I found it comforting to actually know that, if when I became an adult, if I felt like I really wanted to be a boy, I could do it. That you could actually go out and do this! And my mother just listened. She never said a word anytime I would talk to her about stuff. Sometimes, she would ask questions, but she never made any judgement on what I said or anything. And, as I got older, I never felt like—you know, now that I know a lot about people who are transgender, they go through something that I’ve never experienced. I don’t believe that I’ve ever felt the same way they do. So, I don't believe I was ever transgender. But, I do think that that’s a commentary on the way women—females—were treated. I mean, I remember my brother got to do chores outside, and I was expected to dust and clean and do the dishes and all of this sort of stuff, me and my sister. And I mean, there was a definite gender division. In the way I was, when I was mistaken for a boy, I remember a man in the supermarket one time, my mother was—I don’t know where my sister was, she normally was always with my mother, but for some reason, that day, she was not—and I was in the supermarket with my mother. And somebody that mom hadn’t run into in a long time saw her there—a man—and he said something to her. And then he started talking to me. And it was a perfectly normal conversation, you know, and I was just talking to him. I was still a little kid. I wasn’t a preteen or anything—I was still a kid. But I was just talking to him. And he said something to my mother about what a nice son I had, and she said, “Oh, no, that’s my oldest daughter.” And, he said, “Oh! Of course.” And then, he started talking to me very patronizingly, you know, “What a pretty little girl you are!” “Do you like your dresses?” you know, whatever he said. It was just… I wanted to smack him, you know. I really did because he was treating me like a perfectly normal person before he discovered that I was a girl. And then, he began treating me differently. I think that’s a real—that I even went through feeling like that—is a real commentary on the way women are treated in this society. 55.15 ND: I mean, it’s absolutely true. There is a gendered division of labor. 55.20 RJ: Um, hm. 55.20 ND: Do you ever feel like you got treated differently, not only because you were a woman but because you are a woman who liked women? I know I think that I have already asked this, but… 55.32 RJ: Yeah, um. Well, we’ve been treated terrible by some friends. We had some real bad experiences with people we have known. We had a friend at our first apartment that we made friends with. She stayed friends with us for quite a few years and visited us in Lynchburg. And stuff like that. But, one day, she moved to Charlottesville, and she asked us to come and see her. I mean, this was an hour drive up [Route] 29, you know, to go to Charlottesville. So, we drove all the way up to Charlottesville, got out of 17   �the car, found her house. Cause we hadn’t been there before, she recently moved there. Got out of the car, went up to her house, she opened the door, and we stepped into her house. And, before she did anything else—I mean, we figured we were going to be there for a meal, to visit, this sort of stuff—she said “I just wanted you all to know, I want to live a traditional lifestyle. And I do not want to have you for friends anymore. I would like you to leave my house now.” And, we had to get back in our car and drive all the way back to Lynchburg. So yes, we had experiences like that. People who, sometimes it seems like more from people who knew us for a while than even strangers because most of the time we were really mistaken for sisters, I guess because we’re both short. We both had short hair. Some reason, people mistook us for sisters a lot. Strangers would ask us, “Oh! Is that your sister?” and a lot of times, we just go “yeah,” because what are you going to do? It’s nobody’s business if you don’t want it to be. You’re not obligated to come out to everybody you meet, or every stranger on the street! 57.53 ND: That’s absolutely true! It’s your own life. 57.54 RJ: Um, hm. 57.54 ND: So, I want to ask. We’ve asked you about your experiences in the past and how they would have changed, and you’ve also given us advice. Now, if you were looking at yourself—if you had to have a conversation with your past self—what would you tell yourself? You have told us what you would tell other people. What about you, in particular? 58.23 RJ: Well, I think that women tend to have less earning power, and I missed an opportunity [laughter] in my current job that I think it really doesn’t have anything except to do with being a woman. When I came here for this job from Memphis—when I was called and was told that I could have this job, my soon-to-be boss asked me at the time, he said, “Are you fine with the salary?” Well, when I went for the interview, I was told that they had something like eighty some people applied for the job. And they were interviewing almost forty of them. So, I certainly didn’t want to mess up anything about getting that job. I thought, if I say anything to him, what if he says, “Well, fine, we’ll hire somebody else” [laughter]. Or, whatever. But, back in those days, I had worked for city governments—you know, local governments—all of which had jobs that it didn’t matter if you were male or female. If you had that job, there was a fixed salary for it. But, with the state, your salary was negotiable on hiring. I had no way of knowing that, no way at all. And I had three years of experience specifically doing the same job that I came here to do, plus two years of experience in a similar job that involved interpreting regulations. And so, when I was getting this job, they gave me a higher salary than what I had in Memphis. But, the problem was, in Tennessee, there is no state tax. If you considered the salary that I was going to get, moving to Virginia, and if you took away the fact that there was no state tax in Tennessee, it didn't end up really being a raise. I was really coming for about the same salary. 18   �If I could go back and tell myself anything, I would tell myself “ask for more money” because after I came they had hiring freezes. They had salary freezes for years and years and years and years. And it turned out that my boss had been told, because he went back there, they offered me a senior position for a salary that was way below the other person that I was working with who was a man. And the Richmond office—I mean, he was beside himself because he said, “If I had known this is all the money I could have offered her, I would have hired her as a regular [employee], you know below that, so that she would have a chance to move up.” So, they hired me in the highest position that I could come into with nowhere to go and no way to get any more money. And so, it damaged my hiring, my earning potential for my entire career. 1:02:06 ND: I’m sorry. 1:02:06 RJ: Yeah. 1:02:10 ND: Do you have… 1:02:12 RJ: And they kept saying “well, he has more experience than you. He’s worked here for however long,” four years or three years, which wasn’t really true because I had been doing that job before coming there as long as he had. But, that’s the way they were in Richmond. My current boss went up to Richmond one day—I had no idea he was doing this; we went up there together because I was doing some training— and he went up to the personnel office. And he laid out some stuff in front of him, in front of them. And told them that they needed to give me some more money. And he got me more money. But, when you consider all of those years that I didn’t earn it, it hurt. And that’s hurting us today that I didn’t get that earning power that I would have gotten. 1:03:08 ND: That’s awful. 1:03:08 RJ: It is. 1:03:11 ND: Do you have any other experiences or advice that you would like to give? I mean, in terms of other… 1:03:19 RJ: Well, I’ll tell you, I think one of the things that—we got asked things like that when we did the presentation at the PFLAG meeting. Long-term relationships, people tend to ask you, and I’ve had other people [ask], like at work. There was a woman getting married and a lot of the girls at work went out to take her out to lunch before she got married. And Martha was invited and we were sitting across the table from her. She also asked, “What do you do to stay together? You know, how do you—what advice can you give somebody?” And I think that it’s hard sometimes when you’re going through tough times when you’re in a relationship with somebody to realize that nothing ever stays the same. Your relationship is going to ebb and flow and grow and sometimes seem to fall down. But, if you really love the other person, you’re going to get 19   �through those times that seem like you’re going to wring each other’s necks, if you don’t get away from each other. And I think that that’s probably the advice that I would give to somebody is when you are in a relationship, when you find somebody that you really love and who really loves you—and relationships usually work out best, I think for people who somehow are friends before they become lovers. I think having that friendship as a base part of your relationship makes a difference. And just realize that this is a person you’ve been through everything with. Don’t throw it away. If you just hang around for a little while longer, things are gonna change. Whatever is the problem, whatever is going on that’s causing it be a problem, is not going to last forever. 1:05:25 ND: That is wonderful. Thank you so much! We appreciate your time. Do you have any last thoughts or experiences you want to share? 1:05:36 RJ: Well, I just love this project. I love what’s going on here as far as… we’ve gone online and listened to some of the stories. And I think hearing people’s stories is one of the greatest things that you can give to another person. I think that’s one of the things that will help people who are just realizing this about themselves, to hear stories about what other people have been through. 1:06:08 ND: Absolutely! And that’s one of the reasons we’re so thankful for your participation. And I don’t think I can thank you enough for sharing your story! But I have to say thank you again. 1:06:23 RJ: Thank you. I enjoyed this. 1:06:28 ND: I hope you have a wonderful day. 1:06:29 RJ: You, too. [THE END] 20   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Robin Jordan Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Robin Jordan Interviewer: Nicholas Dillon Interviewee: Robin Jordan Date: 22 February 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 1:06:29 Transcription prepared by: Yvonne Gravely, Hannah Kolcz, Nick Dillon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robin Jordan, Nicholas Dillon, Yvonne Gravely, Hannah Kolcz Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JordanRobin https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3439/Martha.MP3 2fefabe7850829f6be601bdb11909586 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3439/Martha.1.pdf e429652e7583240a47f148e8550502d0 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Martha February 22, 2017 Interviewer: Avery Kirkendall (and Marcus Stewart) Interviewee: Martha Date: February 22, 2017 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 221 College Lane, Salem, VA Transcription prepared by: Alexa Doiron, Lorien Santos, Emma Fenton, and Marcus Stewart Total: 1:03:56 0:00= discussing family background; childhood (1950s-1960s) 2:05= relationships with siblings; reactions to Supreme Court marriage equality ruling and to Martha and Robin’s upcoming wedding 5:41= explains reasons for getting married now and not earlier; having an open relationship; health, aging, and mortality 10:07= on having been with her partner since 1972; on atheism and religious discrimination in Virginia 1     �13:37= recalls how she and her partner began their relationship, while both in college (early 1970s) 15:16= Writing a research paper about “homosexuality” at Bridgewater College (early 1970s) 18:00= helpful support from her professor; attending gay student union meetings at the University of Virginia (UVA); reading literature published by political organizations in the early 1970s: women’s movement, gay rights, lesbian feminism, etc. 20:18= reading movement literature and discovering that she and Robin were “lesbians”; the way people talked about homosexuality in the 1960s and 1970s 22:29= talks about the paper she wrote and sent to her parents to come out; her father’s reaction 24:51= getting a job at the Lynchburg Public Library through the CETA program; moving into her parents’ basement after a bad breakup; arguing with her mother about homosexuality 30:08= her parents’ relationships with Robin; relationship with her mother 33:29= her relationship with Robin’s siblings; evangelical Christianity, views on homosexuality 38:35= relatives finding out about her wedding and her not wanting them to attend 40:25= college experiences at Bridgewater College (early 1970s); experiencing homophobia; encounter with the Dean of Students 48:22= Robin’s time at JMU and rules re: gender-segregated dormitories 49:06= going back to Bridgewater for a Pride Week celebration (mid-2010s) 52:36= talking about how things have changed for the better in terms of mainstream acceptance of race, gender, sexuality 54:57= returning to the topic of getting married; getting a marriage license; planning the party 1:00:39= Robin coming “out” to her parents 1:01:55= closing remarks; looking at Martha and Robin’s wedding invitations 2     �0:00 AK: The following interview was conducted with Martha on behalf of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project and oral history initiative. It took place on February 22, 2017 at Fintel Library at Roanoke College. The interviewer is Avery Kirkendall. 0:25 AK: So how about we start off with you stating your name and where you grew up? 0:30 M: Okay, I’m Martha. I grew up around Virginia. We moved every two years when I was a kid, always in Virginia but just different places. I kind of remember where I was when by how old I was by where I lived. But anyway, yeah. 0:49 AK: What can you tell me about your parents, like what kind of work they did? 0:53 M: My father was an electrical engineer for Appalachian Power Company. That’s why we moved every two years because in the fifties and sixties they promoted people and moved them around to promote them, that’s why we moved every two years. My mother… my father grew up around Roanoke, my mother, her parents are from Italy. She’s Italian, she was Italian, but anyway... she worked before, when she met my father, she was like a— I don’t know what she did—but she did secretarial type work. That’s generally what women did back then when my mother was growing up. When I was in high school, we were living in 3     �Lynchburg and she wanted to go back to work and went to Phillips Business College and picked up some skills and went to work for Grand [Home] Furnishing, it was Grand Piano back then, but anyway she went to work for them and eventually became their credit manager and loved it. But anyway, that was my parents. 2:03 AK: Do you have any siblings? 2:05 M: I have two brothers. One is two years younger than me and one is four years younger than me. The one that’s four years younger than me, he and I have always been friends. I don’t know if it is just sibling rivalry, the one that’s two years younger than me, we just sort of like fought all the time, and we get along now because we are adults, not because we really have anything in common. But, my brother who is four years younger than me, he called me up when the Supreme Court ruling came down four years ago on same-sex marriage and he was all excited. The day it happened he called me, ‘Did you hear about the Supreme Court ruling?’ and I said ‘Yeah, I did’ and he said ‘Well, what do y’all...,” he said “I just wanted to tell you, I’m so excited,” he said, “I want to be in your wedding,” and I said “Well, Bob, I don’t think we’re having a wedding.” And he said “Oh, well,” and he sounded real disappointed. “If you do, let me know, I want to be in it.” So now we’re getting married and he’s going to be Robin—my partner’s—best man. 3:07 AK: Oh, that’s so exciting. 3:10 M: And he’s real excited about it. 3:12 4     �AK: Very exciting. Yeah, being the oldest is always interesting... Interesting dynamic there. 3:16 M: Yeah, it is. It’s weird. But it’s, you know, the one who’s two years younger than me, I don’t know, he knows we’re getting married. He says he wants to come to the wedding. I don’t want him there and I don’t want his wife there. She’s Jehovah’s Witness, and a year ago she informed me, she just brought it up, and she said “I think gay people can get married in Virginia now” and I said “Yeah, they can” and I said “The supreme court just ruled they can get married” and she said “Well I just want you to know, I’m not coming to your gay wedding.” And I wanted to say, “Well I didn’t, in the first place, I’m not having a gay wedding, in the second place, nobody asked you.” But I didn’t say any of that, I just said, “Oh, okay,” and then she started telling me about why she couldn’t because Jehovah would be mad at her and all the shit about what is, you know, that Robin and I are going to Hell and all this kind of stuff, and I’m like, “Okay, okay.” And, so that was my conversation with her. I haven’t really spoken to her since then. I sort of like had it, I’m done, I’m through, I’m not... cause she did that kind of thing to me all the time and I’m just done. But when my brother found out I was getting married he said his wife wanted to come and I’m like “Oh no, please no,” but, I decided I’m gonna call [him], I didn’t tell them no on the phone, I was too chicken. But I’m going to call them and tell them, “We decided to elope,” and just get them out of it, I don’t want them to be there. I really don’t. I just do not want it. And if they find out later that I got married and get mad, I’m sorry. I don’t really [care], it’s fine. I haven’t seen my brother in over a year. And, I don’t care. I just, at this point, I just don’t care. He’s...your family, I think your family is the people who support you, who are there for you, no matter who they are. My brother just happens to be, he just happened to have the same parents 5     �that I do and that’s how I feel about it. My other brother is my brother but he supports me. He’s like “yay, I’m so happy for you,” he’s always supported me. We’ve always been friends, but the other one, I don’t care. So, anyway. 5:35 AK: Well, please tell me more about the wedding, when you guys decided to get married? 5:41 M: Oh well, I’m on disability, and this is something I shouldn’t be saying but it won’t matter. But, for a long time it didn’t make any difference that Robin and I were together. I was, you know, that just gave me, I’m on SSI [Supplemental Security Income], and they gave me money for, you know, they gave me money. I had to give so much to Robin, like we were roommates or something. But, I just want to get out from under them, for one thing. And we are getting older and we don’t want something to happen where there’s some question about, you know, one of us dies and there’s a problem with it. So, anyway, so we decided to get married. We went to see a financial advisor and talked to him about what we can do, and it turned out we could get married and she could support me like pay for my insurance and all that. It’s not going to be a problem, she has a pretty good... I can’t think of the word. She has a good pension from work and everything and it’s not going to be a problem. So that’s why we decided to get married at this time and did not four years ago. She retires in five months. 6:53 AK: Oh, that’s exciting. 6:55 M: Yeah, and, we’re really excited about getting married and all that. Cause I don’t really believe in marriage, I think it’s a patriarchal institution, and I never really wanted to. But part of 6     �not wanting to was I think I couldn’t anyway. Although I do think what I think about patriarchal institutions and stuff, but I want to get married now. Robin and I have always had an open relationship; we’ve never said “you have to be only with me.” I feel like Robin’s my partner, she’s first, but whoever else I want to sleep with or hang around with or whatever, that has nothing to do with her, it’s to do with me, and we’ve always been that way. When we got together, I said “I do not want a closed, I do not want a monogamous relationship.” “Well, that’s fine. I don’t want one either.” So, that’s the way it always was and I feel like marriage isn’t going to now change that. But you know, I want to get married for financial benefits more than anything else, especially now that I’m getting older. And I feel like either of us could die any day, and any of us could, but we are older and we’re thinking, “Gee, we’re not really young anymore. We could drop dead.” And my brother—the one who is two years younger than me, that I never got along with—he had triple bypass surgery two years ago. And there was all this stuff going on with my brother who is four years younger than me, when he was forty-four, he had two heart attacks. And that kind of made me think, “wow, I’m not going to live forever.” Here’s my brothers, you know, having heart problems and stuff, and I really started thinking about my future, you know what I mean? Like, I started believing I was going to die. I think everybody thinks, “I’m going to like forever.” I mean you know you’re not, but you still don’t think about your own mortality. But when you get older, you do. You suddenly think, “Oh, maybe people who are friends of mine have died,” you know all of this stuff and it’s just, you start thinking about it, thinking sort of “Well, what would happen if Robin died before me and I was…?” You know, I would be like, “well, what would I have without her?” Because she really supports me. And cause I haven’t worked for a long time and [I’m] obviously not going to go back to work now, because who’s going to hire me in the first 7     �place and I’m just not. And I think, you think, you start thinking about it and that’s really one of the major reasons I want to get married is that I want some security if something happens to Robin and she with me. Like her family can come in and take everything or something like that. I don’t want anything like that to happen. So, anyway. 10:04 AK: Yeah, well. Weddings are very exciting. 10:07 M: But it’s cool that we’re getting married. Because, you know, it’s going to be a party. I feel like I’m planning a party. I told people “We’re having a wedding, with a marriage. We’re having a party—having a relatively fun party—with a wedding attached to it.” And we’ve been together forty-four years, since [19]72. I’ve known her since 1966. In the tenth grade we met, and I just feel like, you know, a wedding is a little bit of an [laughs] afterthought, of a letdown almost. “Ah, we’re getting married.” “Okay, well you’ve been together all the time.” But, it’s the legality of it, you know, and the benefits that accrue from that relationship and you make the relationship your own anyway. So, we’re writing the ceremony and we’re both atheists and that’s, we had a hard time. In Virginia, when you get married you have to have some kind of religious person do your wedding. I don’t know how they do that because it seems like that’s kind of like a violation of your constitutional rights, but whatever. They do. And we did find somebody to do the wedding. A minister who said, “I’ll do a secular wedding, I got no problem.” And I’m not exactly okay with that, but I have to be okay with that. I don’t have a choice. But, you know, I kind of feel like I shouldn’t have to do that. I shouldn’t have to find somebody who says “I’m okay with doing a secular wedding. You all write the ceremony. I’ll do whatever you want.” Because, what if 8     �everybody said “No, I’m not going to do that.” Like, I’m not going to bake cakes for gay people or whatever. You, I don’t know, it just seems like if you set up this thing where you have a minister, that’s not right. There’s a lot of people—I have two friends who just got married and one of them was an atheist. That’s when I found out you had to have a minister. And I’m like, “What? I didn’t know that.” But yeah, you do in Virginia. I even wrote to a lawyer with a secular humanist society and asked him, you know, “Do we really have to have a minister? Because I don’t want to have anything to do with religion.” And he said, “Well, yeah you do in Virginia.” and he said “Virginia is also odd, because each state has rules and then each locality, or city or county or wherever you are, can have their own rules about it.” So, um… [laughing]. It’s worse than I thought, but anyway. 12:46 AK: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of loopholes. 12:48 M: Yeah and there’s loopholes in the thing so you can find somebody to do it, but still the fact that that is required in the first place doesn’t seem like that would… like if you challenged it constitutionally, seems like you would lose. But, I don’t know. I can’t do it. I want to get married in March. I don’t have time to go to the Supreme Court and challenge this. I’m not going to. But somebody should. If you want a project, there you go [laughter from Avery and Martha]. Stand up for atheists. 13:23 AK: Yes, well you were saying you met your current partner back in… when you were ten or in the tenth grade? 13:29 9     �M: [19]66. Tenth grade. 13:31 AK: Tenth grade. So, that leads me to wonder, when did you realize that your sexual orientation was different from the heteronormative? 13:37 M: That’s a funny story. We didn’t realize it. We were living together. Ever since the tenth grade we were friends. When we went to college we started sleeping together. I was going to Bridgewater College; she was going to James Madison. She went to a community college for two years and then her junior year she went to James Madison so she could be near me and Bridgewater. So anyway, we were together all of the time and in 1972, which was the end of my junior year, the beginning of my senior year of college, we moved in together. Robin quit—it was my senior year because Robin quit college—she dropped out second semester senior year. [I] forgot about that. And we moved in together right before that and then she decided to drop out. And so we were living together in Bridgewater. At the college you were not allowed to live off campus. I think it is still that way, unless you were married. You had to live on campus. And I was obviously living off campus. I had a single room in a dorm. But I just sort of took everything out of it and locked the door. And I used it for like when I didn’t want to walk back to the apartment, I’d go to the dorm room and study or whatever. But then I would leave, lock the door, and walk away. I just sort of thought that I was invisible. I thought, “nobody pays any attention to me, nobody knows what I’m doing.” But then, several things happened. 15:16 10     �M: One, I was taking a class called Minority Group Relations and for the class I always studied different minorities. We talked about minorities; we talked about all this stuff. But then we had to write a big paper on a minority and I thought, “hmm, I think I’ll do homosexuals because nobody will do that.” Robin and I were living together, sleeping together, but we didn’t think that we were… we sort of thought that this is... I don’t know what we thought. I can’t exactly get in my head then. Robin said we thought we made it up. I’m not sure I thought we made it up, the way she says it, but I didn’t think about, “I’m a lesbian, I’m gay and whatever.” I wasn’t thinking that. I was just thinking, “Robin and I love each other.” We were sexual but I told some friends the other day, I said, “Maybe it’s different for men.” I don’t know. Men are allowed to be—I don’t know [about] now, but then, this was in ‘72 when we moved in together—men were allowed to be sexual from the time they’re kids. They’re twelve and they can be sexual. Women were sort of thought of, especially then, they weren’t sexual beings. Sex wasn’t even enjoyable to women. They kind of laid there and got screwed. And so, literally and figuratively. But anyway, so [laughter]… that wasn’t something I considered. I didn’t think “Oh, I’m a homosexual. I’m taking this course and I’m in this category.” I didn’t think it. But I went to the library—and this is before the internet or computers—I went to the library, looked it up in the card catalog, went to the shelf, and all the books that I had on my list were gone. Were missing. So, I went to the reference library and I said, “I need these books for a class, where are they?” She said, she looked at the list and she said, “Oh, the books are back there.” And she pointed behind her. And she said “You can’t have them.” And I said “What do you mean back there?” And she said “They’re in a vault, they’re locked in a vault.” And I said, “And I can’t have them? I need them for a class.” And she said, “The only way you can get those books is to get the 11     �professor who you have for that class to come over and check out the books him or herself and then you can take them from them, from the professor. You can’t have them.” And I’m like “What the Hell…?” And so I went and I told my professor, I said “I need these books and I can’t get them,” and so he said “Let’s go over there.” So we went to the library, he asked for the books, he had my list, handed it to them, “I want these books,” she got them for him, gave them to me and he gave them to me right and checked them out. Then he handed them to me in front of her, who didn’t say anything. I said “Thank you.” And I gave her a dirty look and walked out. 18:00 M: But the books were no good. They were like books from the forties and thirties, like “Homosexuality’s Deviant Behavior.” I mean titles like that. And when I looked at them I said, “Now, this isn’t what I want. This isn’t right.” Cause, these were old stuff. I didn’t know what new stuff was but I didn’t think it was that. So, I found out somehow that the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, not far from Bridgewater, had a gay student union. But Robin and I didn’t have a car. So I went to Professor Barnett and I said “I need, I can’t...I don’t know how I’m going to do this paper, I don’t have any books. I want to go… UVA has a gay student union, and I would like to go up there and talk to people but I don’t have a way to get there.” And I was just telling him to say I don’t know what I’m going to do now, I may have to change my topic. And he said, “Oh, I’ll take you and Robin to the gay student union up in Charlottesville. I’ll take you.” So, Professor Barnett, my really nice professor, drove us to the meetings and we got to know people there and stuff. And I remember people saying, “Who’s that man over there, that old man over there?” And I said, “That’s my professor.” And people went, “Oh, man! Your professor came to the meeting with you?” and I said, “Yeah, he drove us here,” and he’s like, “Wow! Our 12     �professors would never do that.” But, remember, this was, like ‘72 and it just wasn’t… it was like underground almost. Stonewall happened in [19]69 so it wasn’t far from there.1 But, anyway… so I started asking people, “I need to do this paper,” and people would tell me, “Write to so and so in Washington D.C.” and I would write to them and they would send me all these papers. There were a lot of… since the women’s movement, the lesbian-feminist movement, the gay movement—LGBT movement—gay rights movement back then...was just starting to pick up and there were a lots of small presses like this one, small magazines, newspapers, all kinds of stuff that people had all over the country. Independent bookstores. I mean lots of stuff out there, not on the shelves of the library. 20:18 M: I started writing to people, one person in Oregon would say “well, write to this person” and they would send me information. I’d write to them, they would send me information, and they would say “write to this person also.” I was writing to people and groups all over the country. Some of them who were pretty big names in the movement… in all these different movements… that I didn’t even know. I was getting letters from them… these people… all kinds of people. One day Robin and I had all the papers spread out on the floor in our apartment and we are looking at stuff, and I was getting ready to make an outline for the paper and take notes. And Robin said “I think this is talking about us!” And I said “Yeah, you know, I was thinking that too, I think so too!” And that’s how we realized we were lesbians. That was like the moment where we went “Oh wow!” It was like an epiphany, we went “Oh! It’s us!” And that sounds stupid to people today but back then… you can be… I wasn’t the only person—I’ve read this in                                                                                                                         The Stonewall Riots occurred in June 1969 in New York City, setting off a nationwide gay liberation movement. 1 13     �coming out stories—I wasn't the only person. And these are all women, but still I wasn’t the only person who was like “Wow, this is me!” It just wasn’t talked about. You didn’t know anything. I mean I remember growing up, my mother had a cousin, who was apparently gay because my mother used to say “Well, Peter is coming with his friend,” and the way she said it… I remember being in high school my mother would say… People would talk at the table—this is at my grandmother’s house; everybody was Italian and yacking all at once—and people would say “Peter and his friend,” and the way they said “friend,” and I said, “Peter and his friend?” and I knew his friend was a man and I’m thinking why are they saying friend like that? But nobody said the word “gay,” “homosexual,” “lesbian”; nobody talked about it back then. It was just like it didn’t exist. Even if people knew it existed they didn't acknowledge it; so you could be that, as dumb as we were. It was perfectly possible. 22:29 M: Anyway, so I wrote this paper and in the first paragraph I came out. I said, “I was going to write this academic paper, dah dah dah dah dah, and then I realized it was talking about me.” And I just wrote the paper. I came out on the first paragraph. I ended up sending it to my parents, that’s how I came out to my parents. I sent them the paper that I wrote for sociology. I think it was sociology…for some class I took in college. I sent it to them, and I was really scared. I didn’t know what they were going to say, what was going to… and I was like real nervous but then I got the paper back with a letter from my father saying “I love my children. I love them no matter what, and I just want you to be happy.” And I never… my father always said that nobody should tell anybody else—the government, not him, not anybody—if you’re not hurting anybody or not hurting yourself, who cares what you do. It’s nobody’s business. That was his thing, that was a big thing. Since I was little I remember my father saying stuff like that. That’s how sorta 14     �we were raised; not by my mother, who thought she should get in all of our business. But my father was very hands off, you know, whatever you do, not my business. So he wrote me this letter “I love you and I don’t care” and stuff… and he told me if you have anything else for me to read, send me and I’ll read it. I sent him some books. I sent him Lesbian Woman by Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon, which was a book back then. I don’t think anybody reads it anymore but it was an old book on lesbianism, on lesbian women, on lesbian feminism. I sent it to him, and he read it and sent it back and wrote a note about it. So that’s how I came out to my parents [laughter], and that’s how Robin and I discovered that we were gay. I’m sorry that was a long story for that, but it kinda needed all those prefaces to it or I don’t think people today really would understand what was going on in the seventies because it’s different today. I think you pretty much hear about, you know, gay rights, feminism, and stuff, and you didn’t hear that back then. 24:51 AK: That was a spectacular story. Would you mind telling us how your mother reacted? 24:55 M: My mother, she didn’t say anything to me, she told my brothers and they told me this later. Mom told them that she was upset that I was gay, it was her fault, because she quote-unquote [said] “she should have made me wear dresses when I was little.” That’s exactly what she said. I laughed, but later on… I had had a relationship with somebody—not Robin, somebody else— and I was working in the library in Lynchburg in a CETA program, C-E-T-A. Comprehensive Education and Training Act. I think that was the name of it. Comprehensive… I think it was Education but it was something… Employment and Training Act, I think.2 It was a program under, I don’t remember who was president, but there were a lot of people out of work, like now, but the government back then set up programs like CETA, and there were other programs that 2                                                                                                                         The Comprehensive Employment and Training Act (CETA) was passed by Congress in 1973. 15     �put people to work. What CETA did is they took people who were underemployed or unemployed, got them into positions, and the government paid part of the salary and the business or whatever it was paid the other part. It was a win-win for everybody. They would never do that now. These used to take care of people, more or less—some people—back then. I got a CETA grant because I was an English major in college and got out and found out that you can’t do much with English unless you want to teach and I don’t want to teach. So, I was kind of hanging out. I worked for an electrician. I worked here. I just did different odd jobs and I stumbled on the CETA job and I got a job as an aide in the public library in the children’s department, which is what made me want to go into library science because I loved it. I was with this woman also. Anyway, I was with this other woman at the time and we broke up and I was really upset and I decided to move into my parents’ basement and pay them very little money. They said I could live in their basement for fifty dollars a month and live there, and I saved my CETA money. I decided like the day that we broke up, I called my mother “Mom can I come home and live in the basement?” I decided right then, I said, “I want to go to graduate school and go into library science and I want to save my money so can I come home and live in the basement? I’ll pay you some rent.” She said I could, and moved out and moved in our basement, payed them fifty dollars a month and lived there, to save money for graduate school. But anyway my mother and I were one of those evenings sitting at the kitchen table talking and my mother started crying. We were just talking. We weren’t talking about… I don’t even know what we were talking about. Nothing in particular, it was just like “oh, it’s a nice day,” stuff like that, and my mother suddenly burst out crying and I said “Mom, what’s wrong?” and she said “Oh, you’re a… I’m upset, you’re a…” and I said “I’m a what?” and she said “you’re… you know, you know” and I said “What mom?” “You know!” And I said “You mean a lesbian?” “Don’t say that word!” and I 16     �said “Mom, there’s nothing wrong with that word.” “Don’t say that word!” she kept saying. I kept saying it, and it was upsetting her. I said “Mom, you could say it. Try. Say ‘lesbian.’” “No, don’t say that!” And so I finally shut up about that, and she’s said “Well, you’re unhappy because you’re a… you’re a…” the word she wouldn’t say. And I said “Mom, I’m unhappy because I just broke up with my girlfriend. Anybody would be. I’m not unhappy because I’m a lesbian. I’m unhappy because I broke up with my girlfriend. I will be happy again, don’t worry. I’ll get over it. I’ll be OK.” She said, “I know you’re unhappy.” She’s sniffing and crying and saying “I would be unhappy if I were you.” I said “Mom! you’re not me and I'm not you,” and I thought I can’t believe we’re having this stupid conversation about who is what because I said to her “If I were you I would be unhappy too because I wouldn’t want to live your life, but I am not you and you are not me. And can I explain this existential thing to you, mom, that we are different people?” But I don’t think she ever understood cause she was really upset about it and it was the first and only time I ever talked to my mother about, you know, being lesbian, and I never said that to her before and only because she started crying and saying “you’re a… you’re a…” and wouldn't say the word. I still feel bad that my mother thought I was unhappy and miserable and I think both my parents felt that I was going to have a hard life. Which I did. Because I was gay, which was true. It was hard to be gay then. It’s hard to be gay now, but it was even harder then. They were right there about that, but it didn't mean that I was unhappy or anything else. It just… that was the way it was. That was my life. 30:08 M: But my parents loved Robin. That was the saving grace. Both of them loved Robin. My mother came up to me one time—we were living in Memphis, and my parents were visiting—my mother came up, she grabbed my arm and she whispered in my ear “You’re lucky to have 17     �somebody like Robin to put up with you.” I said “Mom!” [laughter] She also told me that she knew that I made Robin a lesbian, because Robin wasn’t really a lesbian, she said. “Robin’s not really a lesbian, I know she isn’t! You made her a lesbian.” I went, “Mom!” She said “You also made your brother …” this is my brother who is four years younger than me “You also made your brother an atheist. You gave him those books to read.” And I said “Oh mom, you have given me amazing powers that I can actually control and change people. That’s just amazing mom, you can’t mean that.” She’s like [growls] she got all frustrated because I was teasing her. She kinda just [growls] and walked way. You all be careful because I have these eyes that can just convert people into whatever I want, according to my mother. But they did love Robin. My mother called Robin… like, we were in my parent’s house one time, and my mother called Robin in the kitchen. She said “Robin come here!” She said, “I want to teach you how to make my spaghetti and my meatballs…” and all this stuff. She didn’t teach me, she taught Robin. [laughter] She loved Robin. They really liked Robin but Robin is just really nice. My brother that’s four years younger said to me one time, he said, “Robin is just the nicest person I’ve ever met. She’s just really nice. She’s nice to everybody, she can hate you and she’s still nice. She can still be nice to you.” I never looked at it that way before but I said “Bob, you know, you’re right. She is nice and she’s exactly that way, you’re exactly right.” Sometimes she’s too nice because I’m not nice. I’m not a nice girl. I’m nasty to people. I say what I think, I don’t care. But Robin is like “I’m not going to say that because I don’t want to hurt their feelings,” and I, “Look! They are hurting your feelings. Tell them what you think!” “No, I’m not going to do that.” She’d just rather walk away. I’d rather fight. So we are different. 32:30 18     �M: Anyway, that’s my mother and that was kind of,my relationship. My mother… I was the only girl and my mother and I were always very close. I don’t think that that stopped us from being close but I don’t think my mother understood that part at all, [that] part of me, and I mostly just didn’t talk about it with her. So that was kind of…I didn’t talk about it with my father either but I knew he was okay with it. He was fine, I guess. He never said anything other than the letters he wrote me, so I think he was alright. His attitude would have made him alright. My mother not so much. 33:19 AK: You were saying your brother’s wife, being a Jehovah’s Witness, had issues. Did you have any other problems with Jehovah’s witnesses or other groups like that? 33:29 M: Well... yeah. Like just a week ago, Robin’s brother said—and Robin sister’s the same way, they’re both very evangelical religious sort of people—but Robin’s brother has always been really nice to us. We have stayed at his house, all the stuff. He’s always been really nice. So we called him when we found out we could get married and all that stuff. Robin said “Let’s call my brother and tell him.” She has a brother and a sister. She’s the middle child; her brother is the oldest. She said “Let’s call my brother and tell him.” So we called him, and he answered the phone, “Hi Martha!” He’s real excited and I said “Hi! Guess what?” He said “What?” I said “Guess what we did today?” and he said “What?” I said “We were out looking at rings today; we’re going to get married.” And he had this nervous kind of [laughs nervously] laugh. And I said “We were out looking at her rings” and Robin said “we’re going to get married.” He had that nervous laugh and I said something like “what do you think?” or something like that and he said “Well if that’s what you want to do…” Like we were going to go jump off a cliff or 19     �something and I said “David, what do you mean, if that’s what you want to do? That’s a weird thing to say to somebody who just told you… most people say congratulations.” And he sort of laughed funny again and I said “No, really what do you mean?” You see that’s me, I push people. I said “What do you mean if that what we want to do?” and Robin poked me and said “Quit. Don’t badger him.” And I didn’t say anything else. We got off the phone and half an hour later he called her and said “I just wanted to tell you that we can’t come to your wedding because we’re Christian,” and Robin said “So?” and he said “Well, I believe what Jesus said about homosexuality,” and Robin said, “Jesus didn’t saying anything about homosexuality” and he said “Yes he did!” and Robin said “What?” And David said “well, I don’t know exactly but I know he did.” Robin is like “No, he didn’t say anything. There’s nothing as far as what Jesus said in the Bible about homosexuality.” He said “No, I think there is.” and Robin said “I think if you look it up you’ll find that.” He finally said “well, I’ll have to look into that but it says in the Old Testament…” So Robin said, “Well, yeah, it says a lot of stuff in the Old Testament, like you can’t eat shellfish, you can’t eat pork, you shouldn’t stone people, disrespect their parents. You can’t wear cloth with the same kind of, you know… different fabrics. It says a lot of stuff in the Old Testament, so what? You don’t do those… you don’t follow any of those other things but you are picking that one thing out and saying this is what it says and so this is wrong.” And he said “Well actually…” he said “I don’t follow the Old Testament. I believe what Jesus said.” So then that was a whole circular argument and ended up [with] she just got off the phone, but she did say to him, “I wish you just said you couldn’t come. You didn’t have to be hurtful about it,” and she said “I just wish you hadn’t felt like you had to be hurtful to me. You could’ve just said we can’t come. You don’t have to give me your reason.” And I don’t know what he said, they got off the 20     �phone. So, yeah, her brother. 37:06 M: And her sister when DOMA happened, the Defense of Marriage Act, not just in Virginia but all over. Her sister told me that she didn’t think gay people should be able to get married because… It was okay if they had civil unions but they shouldn’t have weddings—not weddings but marriage. That was only for straight people and I said “So you mean like separate but equal?” and she said “No!” And I said “Well, that’s what you are saying.” Then she said “No, no, no, I just don’t think our church shouldn’t have to marry gay people” I said “Look, your church doesn’t have to marry anybody it doesn’t want to. Anybody. If two people of different races come in and want to get married and your church is against that and some more, you don’t have to do that if you don’t want to. This is your church; this isn’t the state and those are two separate things.” And she kept saying “Well, I don’t think they should.” I think she kept saying that. I just gave up. Some people you just can’t talk to them. They’re not reasonable and there’s no point going on and on. It’s like David... Robin arguing with her brother, it’s… after a while you just go “Ugh, forget it.” Or me arguing with my sister in law, the Jehovah’s witness, who actually told me that we, she and I, could not talk about religion, not talk…that was forbidden, although she talked to me about all the time. So, okay, fine. 38:35 M: But I’m not… I told her I would not talk about it and I never did, but I just said “Err…” I got off the phone and I haven’t spoken. When she calls, I know who it is, I see it on my phone. I know who it is. I don’t pick it up. That’s why I haven’t talked to her or really my brother in the past year and a half or so. I’m not picking it up when they call. I did talk to him the day they found out we were getting married. I don’t know how but they did. I was like okay, I did talk to 21     �my brother, but I don’t want them there. I don’t want them there, I don’t… Their attitudes, I don’t want them. And my sister in law, who told me I was going to hell and she was not coming to my gay wedding, got on the phone when I was talking to my brother and said “I love you! I wanna be there for you. You came to my wedding, I wanna come to yours.” And I’m thinking, and I said “Look, that’s not what you said to me, you told me a year ago…” you know, and I repeated what she said, she said “But I still love you.” And I’m thinking “yeah right, you don’t even know me,” and I said “okay, yeah.” And I could have called them and tell them… I’m going to lie to them about where we live. I don't know how to get out of this, that they want to come. I don’t want to be nasty. “I don’t want you to, you are just horrible people” but I will just lie to them and whatever happens happens. I don’t care. I don’t really think I should have to lie to them. I don’t know what else to do; they’re kind of my family. Families are a pain in the butt sometimes [laughs]. If you had mine you would know [more laughter]. You probably have painin-the-butt relatives too. Both of you. Everybody has those [continues laughing]. 40:25 AK: Certainly. Could you tell me a little bit about the college community? You were saying, a lot of people… it wasn’t spoken about… what was your college community like? [both laugh] 40:43 M: Horrible. 40:45 AK: Yeah? 40:47 M: I mean, I remember friends… “friends,” quote-unquote. As Donald Trump says, “so-called friends.” They, I mean, I was at a restaurant with a group of people… girls that I was friends 22     �with in college. We were talking. I was not saying anything about lesbianism or being with Robin or anything else. And all of a sudden, one of the women across a table from me just burst out crying and she yelled in the restaurant “Lesbianism! That’s all you ever talk about is Lesbianism!” She was crying, and I just thought, “oh God, people are going to come beat me up in a second.” They’ll probably think I touched her breast or something. I mean, they probably think I’m molesting this woman, but she was screaming that, and I don’t know where that came from. I guess I upset her more than I thought. But it wasn’t happening. I wasn’t talking about it at the restaurant, I was just having a normal conversation. She screamed that and I really remember that because I just wanted to shrink under the table and die about then, because it got quiet and everybody was looking like somebody would have if somebody screamed that at a restaurant. Stuff like that happened. The Dean of Students, I got called into his office because the dorm mother had found out this happened … and she has gone to the Dean of Women who said “leave me alone” and then she went to the Dean of Students who is, of course, higher than the Dean of Women. And he called me into his office and I went to his office… I didn’t know what it was about, but I went in there. And he sat behind this big wooden desk in a leather chair, and he has some woman with him. I don’t know who she was. But, and he starts asking me questions like, “What are you doing hanging around with this other girl on campus? What are you doing? She doesn’t belong here. Why are you friends with this woman?” And I never said anything, and then he started saying, “I think that’s pretty weird.” And then he would look at this woman and say, “Don’t you think that’s pretty weird?” And then he would look back at me and say, “I think that’s pretty weird.” And they would laugh. And he was asking me questions about all kinds of stuff, and I just stood there. I was really angry. I was scared. I was angry. But I said, “I’m not going to say anything. 23     �I’m just going to stand here.” I just tried to keep a straight face and just stand there. Finally, after this went on for a few minutes, he said, “Well, I’m going to call your father about this.” And then I spoke up, and I said, “Okay, call my father. Go ahead.” And he looked kind of startled and he said, “I’m going to call your father. I mean it. I’m going to call your father.” I said, “Call my father. Go ahead. I don’t care.” I was hoping he did because I knew my father would say, “Mind your own fucking business,” and hang up the phone. Excuse my language. But you know that was my father. And I kind of wanted him to call. “Call dad. Call my father. Go ahead.” But that was a threat to him, and it probably worked on a lot of people. To me, it was like, “Throw me in that briar patch. Do not call my dad. I’m fine.” So he kept saying he was going to call my father, and I kept saying, “Go ahead. You want his number? I have his number right here. I’ll give it to you. Call him right now.” But he just sort of started stammering like he didn’t know what to say next. And then I was really angry and I said, “Are you finished?” And he didn’t say anything. And I said, “Because I’m leaving.” And I turned around and I walked out and I shut the door. When I shut the door, I slammed it, and I went, “Oh no! I slammed the door! [laughter] Oh my god, I slammed the door. They’re going to really get me now.” And then I thought, but I was really angry, but I didn’t mean to slam the door. But then I was kind of like, “Okay. I slammed the door. That was good effect. I walked out and slammed the door.” But when I got outside of the building, I was so scared. I remember my knees… I remember walking outside, and I was surprised it was light outside, and it wasn’t like the apocalypse going on, and my knees were shaking. I was so scared. I thought, “God, they could kick me out of college. You know I’m almost finished.” I was terrified that I was going to get thrown out. I was just about finished and I thought, “I’ll have to get in another college, and they’ll want to know why I got kicked out, and I’ll have to go through this explanation.” I just…I just was scared. But I don’t know if he called 24     �my father. I never heard another word about it; nothing else happened. I went back to the apartment and cried. When Robin came home from work I was crying. I was really scared. It was frightening. But nothing happened. Phew. Dodged a bullet. And I graduated. 45:38 M: But you know, he was…the last day of my senior year—this was my senior year when that happened with the Dean of Students—I had a few things in the dorm and I went to get them. I was on a short hall, it was like half a hall, and I was on the hall with all these freshmen. I had the only single room, with its own bathroom even, on the hall. Everything else was suites. And the girls came up to me when I was in the…I didn’t even know them. I didn’t know them at all cause I was never there. I didn’t live there. But they came up to my door where I was getting stuff out of there and they said, “Um, we know you haven’t been here all year.” And I looked up and I said, “Oh yeah?” And they said, “The dorm mother,” whatever her name was, “has been looking for you.” And this is where I realized I wasn’t invisible. Not only had the Dean happened, but apparently the dorm mother had been looking for me for a long time. And I said, “She has?” And they said, “Yeah, she went to the Dean of Students, and the Dean of Women told her to leave you alone.” And I was kind of surprised. They said, “We know you weren’t living here. When she came looking for you, she’d come knock on your door, and she’d come eleven o’clock, eleven-thirty at night. And we’d go out and she’d ask us where you were. We told her we didn’t know. You were upstairs studying with a friend. We didn’t know exactly where you were.” And I said, “Well thank you for covering for me.” And they said, “Yeah sure.” I didn’t even know these girls, they didn’t know me, but I remember thinking, “Wow that’s really nice that they did that. That they lied for me.” They said, “She’s upstairs.” Why would they cover for me? Why were they covering for me? I mean, it just seemed amazing that somebody would…I didn’t even 25     �know them. I didn’t even know their names, and they were really nice. I kind of laughed when they told me that, and I said, “Well thank y’all. I really appreciate it.” They said, “Yeah. You know…you don’t need to get in trouble. We don’t…” I don’t know exactly what they said, but we don’t care about the dorm mother. They had dorm mothers, back then, not RAs [resident assistants]. But anyway. The girls had dorm mothers. The boys had nobody, and they ran wild. We had to be in at eleven, had all these rules, and on the weekend we got to actually stay out until one. Big time. But the boys could run around all the time and they always did. But we weren’t allowed to have boys in the dorm, stuff like that. I mean, it was back then, those days. 48:22 M: Robin, when she was at [James] Madison [University], her parents had to sign a thing to allow boys to be in her dorm, if she wanted them. They refused to sign. They were like, “We’re not signing this. We don’t think you should have boys in your dorm.” And Robin’s like, “I don’t care. I don’t like boys anyway. Don’t sign it.” But she did think that her parents shouldn’t have to sign something for her, her junior year in college, that she could have boys in [her room]. Give me a break. And she tried to argue with them, but she wasn’t real convincing cause she didn’t really care. But, anyway. At Bridgewater, you couldn’t even sign something. That was just against the rules, period. That was that. But that was those days. I know it’s different now. 49:06 M: I went back to Bridgewater a year ago. I got a flyer in the mail. It said, it was for alumni, it said, “Come celebrate.” I said, “I will never come back to this school,” when I left. Don’t ever say “never,” because I got this thing in the mail last year. It was a flyer, and it said, “Come celebrate Pride Week with us in Bridgewater.” And I got the flyer and I kind of glanced at it, but I didn’t realize… I don’t know, I read it, but I said, “Okay. Bridgewater,” so I put it down. I’m 26     �not interested in anything from them. I don’t care. But Robin looked at it, and she said, “Martha, look at this.” She handed it to me, and I said, “Yeah, I saw it. It’s from Bridgewater.” She said, “No. Look at it.” And I looked, and I went, “What the fuck is going on over there? Pride Week at Bridgewater? What’s going on? This isn’t Bridgewater.” But anyway, we went. We went to Pride week, and it was really amazing. Because one thing we did was we talked to students. They have a gay student union. They have all these diversity… it’s called a diversity center, and kind of all the groups are in this one building. Like the Black Student Union—that’s not the name of it—but the Black Student Union, the Gay Student Union, the Latino/Hispanic, all those. Any minorities are now in the diversity center. We were over there, and we were with about six students. And we were getting the tour of campus, me and Robin, but what happened is we ended up sitting in the diversity center and talking for three hours with all these students. And it really made me realize how things are really different than they were when I was there. Things have changed a lot, and they talked about bad stuff that happened on campus: people yelled at them or wrote things, stuff like that about, you know, gay people. But, it wasn’t like when I was there. I mean, God, they had a Pride Week that the school was putting on. We had a reception at the President’s house, and the President came up to me. And I had told my story at lunch—we had lunch with the students—about what had happened when I went there. And the President came up to me, and he said, “Martha, I want to—” He said, “Hi, I’m President blah-blah-blah. I want to apologize to you for what happened when you were at Bridgewater.” He said, “Somebody who was at the administration told me what happened.” He said, “I’m glad your back.” And I kind of laughed, and I said, “Yeah. I said I was never coming back. And here I am.” And he said, “Well, I really want to apologize for that.” He said, sort of like, “That was then, this is now.” It really made me, when I left I felt very… like there’s hope. I mean, people are different as a 27     �whole. There are people like her [Robin’s] brother, and my sister-in-law, and I mean, a whole bunch of people like that, that obviously voted for Trump. But you know, when I think about it, like when the immigration thing happened…. How many—I mean, now they’re deporting people—but how many lawyers, how many people, went to the airport to support people? How much support was that? I mean, that was incredible to me when I saw that. It made me think of Bridgewater, and it made me think of stuff today. 52:36 M: I just feel like, you know, it seems like we’re going backwards, but really the majority of people, we’re moving forward, moving forward, moving forward. A little teeny bit at a time, but we’re going that way. It really does, it really gives me some hope. In spite of what’s going on now, I still feel like…I feel like Anne Frank. People are really good after all. I mean I don’t, I see that there are mean people in the world, there are bad people in the world, or people that hate other people because they’re gay, because the color of their skin, because they’re from a certain country. Whatever. But I think those are the minority of people today. I don’t think they’re a majority in this country or even in the world, probably, today. I think most people have gone beyond that. I mean, I was born in [19]51. I remember “colored” and “white” bathrooms and water fountains and stuff like that. And that’s been gone a long time. But I remember it, and so that was when I was small, and now look. Now, [gesturing toward Marcus] you’re here, and you wouldn’t have been here when I was small, you know what I’m saying? And I wouldn’t have been here when I was small because I’m gay. I could’ve hidden that. You can’t hide it, sorry, I hate to tell you. But you kind of look dark-skinned [laughter]. But anyway, you know what I’m saying? It really is different than even sixty years ago. And that may seem like a long time to y’all, but it doesn’t really seem that long to me because I remember it. And anyway, so that’s 28     �how I feel about things. And I really started feeling that way because I went back to Bridgewater. Because I saw young people who talked to me, and just, I don’t know. You people really—“you people” [laughter]… I hate that. “Those people.” “You people.” But it really gives me hope. I mean, it really makes me feel like…. I mean we’re doing this interview, and that wouldn’t have happened when I was in college. And it just makes me feel like, “wow, things are getting better.” In spite of everything, they are getting better. And it may not seem like it, but they are. 54:57 M: Robin and I are getting married. We went down to the courthouse down here in Salem. We went in—Robin and I were both… Robin told me afterwards, she said, “You know, I was really braced for something bad to go down.” I said, “Yeah, me too.” Nothing happened. Nothing. It was just like, smooth. We walked in, went through the scanners, asked the sheriff. I said to the sheriff, “We want to get a wedding…a marriage license. Where do we go?” He didn’t blink an eye, he just said, “Go here. Go here.” I hate the police in there. I was talking to a cop. He was like saying, “Go here. Go here. Go here.” Just not… I mean, I was with another woman. Obviously I wanted a wedding license—a marriage license—for us. He was like, “Okay, go up here and do this.” And walked in the room where we were told to go, and a man said, “Can I help you?” And we told him what we wanted. He said, “Go to that window down there.” We filled out all the papers. Everything. After the papers and everything was done, she handed us the marriage license with a whole bunch of stuff, and was telling us what to do with it and stuff. When she handed it to us, she said, “Congratulations.” And I almost started crying because I thought… I said to Robin when we walked out of the room, I said, “I’ve never, never, never had anybody say congratulations to me because I love you.” Because that’s essentially what it was. I said, “I know she wasn’t saying it to me and you personally. I know she says that to everybody, 29     �and that’s just the thing. She says that to everybody. Even us.” She said “congratulations.” I was almost crying. And that’s when Robin said, “I was braced for something bad to go down.” And I said “I was too.” And it didn’t happen. And it’s amazing that it didn’t happen, and I’m like, almost crying about it now. Because what I went through then is not what I’m living through now. And it’s just amazing to me. And I don’t mean to sound like Pollyanna [laughter], really cause I’m not, but I just think that is really incredible, that that is my story, but yet this is my story today. But I never thought that this would happen. I never thought any of this—that Robin and I would be getting married, that people would be saying congratulations, anything—would happen. The financial adviser we talked to who decided who looked at all the stuff and said, “You can get married.” I gave him an invitation to our wedding, and he said, he opened it up and we were talking, and I’ve known him for years. And I hugged him and I said, “Thank you so much. You and your partner—his son-in-law works with him—y’all are really the reason we’re getting married.” And he said, “Martha. Thank you.” He said, “But love is the reason you’re getting married.” And I’m like, “whoa.” I don’t know, that almost made me cry too. Everything’s about making me cry today. I mean, these days. Because it’s just… I don’t know, it’s just different. And I’m glad... cause I have a different story. And it’s not about love, except for me and Robin. It’s about people hating this. But those people, they never mattered. I mean, I was always out. I was always open. I never hid, except from Social Security [laughing]. But I never hid, you know, my gayness from anybody. But…I just…it was a struggle even then. I lost friends. You know a lot of people just got out of my life. And I’m kind of like, well I don’t need those people in my life. If they don’t like me because of this, they can get out of my life. And I think I got that from my father, who’s like it’s nobody else’s business, and that was kind of my opinion too. And if they wanted to make it their business, then I don’t need them. But anyway, so 30     �I’ve been that way my whole life, but still… it still hurts. Even though you’re saying, “I don’t care what you think. I don’t need to deal with you. I know what I think.” It still hurts when people say, you know, nasty things to you and yell “Lesbianism…” in a restaurant. Or any of that stuff, like the Dean. I was scared. And people can hurt you. You can stand up for yourself, but you know that you can be hurt by these people. And even, you know, thrown out of school or put in jail back when I was younger for what I was doing. It never happened. None of those things happened, but it could. And it was scary because I knew it. And now I’m kind of like, “yay, we get married. And it’s all gonna be up in the open. You know, friends are coming. It’s going to be a big party. It’ll be fun. And I’m looking forward to it because it’ll be a party. I want a party.” I like to party [laughter]. I thought it would be fun to have a big party and have the wedding attached to it. The wedding is sort of almost an afterthought because I really want to celebrate, you know, what we’ve had... What we are, or how we feel about each other. I want to do that, and I want to do it with people who support me. That’s why I don’t care. I don’t want my brother or sister-in-law there. I want people to come who support me. When Robin told her mother we were getting married, her mother said, “Well, it’s about time.” [laughter] But her mother’s always been supportive. Always. Robin told her mother, she told her when she dropped out of school, she said… this is how she explained it to her parents. She said, “If Martha were a man, I would want to marry her.” And her mother was cooking at the stove, and said, “Oh.” And her father was behind her, and he was deaf, and he said, “What did she say?” And her mother said, “She said if Martha was a man, she’d want to marry her.” And her father said, “Oh.” That was the whole conversation. And it’s just kind of funny to me that they reacted just kind of like, “oh.” But I think maybe they reacted like that because they never thought about it. It wasn’t even…like I said, it wasn’t even in your vocabulary, in your line of sight, that there were people like 31     �lesbians and gay men. That wasn’t even…you didn’t even think about that back then. These people didn’t exist. And so I think that when she said that to her parents, they kind of thought, “oh.” And I think they really didn’t follow the whole thread of the thing. It was like what she said, “oh, okay.” But I think that was easy to do then, for some people. To the Dean of Students, not so much [laughter]. But anyway. So that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. 1:01:55 AK: [laughter] Well it was an absolute privilege to be able to be here and listen to your stories. We really appreciate you and your contribution. 1:02:03 M: I didn’t mean to go on so long. 1:02:05 AK: No, no. 1:02:06 M: I really had all that to say. And then I have to explain all that stuff to get to where I am. I want to show you all something. Let me show you something. This is off the… [Martha pulls out a copy of her and Robin’s wedding announcement to show to Avery and Marcus] That’s our wedding announcement. That’s my copy. Robin gave me a copy. Those are directions. 1:02:28 AK: Aw! That is so cute. With the hearts. [laughter] 1:02:33 M: I found that online, but you can draw it. 1:02:41 AK: Oh, that is wonderful. Congratulations. 32     �1:02:49 M: Thank you. I love the wedding announcements. I really like what we did. Robin had made them up. She said, “I’m going to do this and this and that.” I didn’t understand what she was telling me. And she made up this mock thing, but it wasn’t this. It looked like a regular, somebody’s “so-and-so would like the…” What do you say, “the pleasure of your company…” all that shit. I read it, and I said, “Robin, I don’t like this. It’s too formal, it’s stiff. It’s not us.” And she said, “Well re-write it.” I said, “Okay.” So I rewrote it, but she designed it. I’m not a…I can’t think, well we should do this and put a heart and do this. That’s her work. I was the words. [laughter] But I like what I wrote. I’m happy with it. 1:03:32 AK: Yep. It’s definitely fantastic. 1:03:34 M: So we’re real excited. I had to show you. I had to bring it and show it to you and the book. Nick said to bring the book. I said, “Well okay.” But I don’t know why, but I did. Didn’t even talk about that [laughter]. [END]   33     � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Martha Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Martha Interviewer: Avery Kirkendall, Marcus Stewart Interviewee: Martha Date: 22 February 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 1:03:56 Transcription prepared by: Alexa Doiron, Lorien Santos, Emma Fenton, Marcus Stewart Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Martha, Avery Kirkendall, Marcus Stewart, Alexa Doiron, Lorien Santos, Emma Fenton Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Martha https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3440/Muse_Don.MP3 9261a434a2b4faa1ad975ee0c9584799 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3440/Muse_Don.1.pdf 99bb22c84a0bc27084d2a3ceaf8353f2 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Don Muse February 19, 2017 Interviewer: Sasha Roberts Interviewee: Don Muse Date: February 19, 2017 Location: Home of Don Muse in Old Southwest, Roanoke, Virginia Transcribed by: Victoria Preston, Brooke Thacker, and Sasha Roberts Duration: 1:01:18 00:00= Childhood (1958 – 1960s) 01:28= Impact of television on LGBT awareness in the early 1970s 02:44= Roanoke in the 1970s; visible presence of gay people 03:41= Experiences at Jefferson High School (c. 1972-1974), then Patrick Henry High School (c. 1974-1976); gay people in high school 04:44= Coming out; responses of black families to homosexuality versus white families 06:34= Experiences in high school (mid-1970s) 07:37= Bullies and homophobia; the role of family in the African American community 09:05= Having female friends; gay and straight women 11:16= Downtown Roanoke in the 1970s; transvestite sex workers; red light district; dive bars with a gay clientele; gentrification of downtown 13:12= Attending Ferrum College (late 1970s) 13:34= Career in the music industry; songwriting and playwriting 15:26= Leaving Roanoke 16:07= Life in New York in the 1980s 17:45= Impact of HIV & AIDS 20:09= Friends affected by HIV and AIDS 21:36= Cruising at gay bars; forming relationships; the role of bars for meeting other gay people 26:02= Interracial dating in the gay community; thoughts on marriage equality 32:28= Pride festivals 36:01= Coming back to Roanoke and the changes in the city; local politics in Roanoke 38:49= Segregation in Roanoke; racism 44:14= Future plans 44:49= Challenging the status quo; on being black, gay, and male; police brutality; racism and sexism; reproductive rights and abortion 50:17= Transgender issues, specifically HB2 in North Carolina; aging and dating, as a black gay man; racism   1   �55:44= Backstreet Café shooting (2000); violence against LGBT people 57:12= Backstreet and Orlando shootings 00:00 [Checking sound levels ~ 5 seconds] 00:05 SR: My name is Sasha Roberts interviewing Don Muse on February 19th, at his home in Roanoke, Virginia. Okay, so, to start, just tell me your name, like where you’re from, and where you grew up. 00:19 DM: My name is Donald C. Muse. I’m originally from Roanoke, Virginia. I was born September 1st, 1958. And Roanoke is home. 00:29 SR: Okay. Okay, so, can you describe your childhood? If you had any siblings were you close with them? Or were you close with your parents? 00:38 DM: My founding years, my parents and I and my siblings lived in the Lincoln Terrace housing project. I went to school at Lincoln Terrace Elementary. I had three other siblings. It was a good life. But it was the sixties. Growing up in the sixties, it was a different time of day than it is today. A young person who is Afro-American and gay at 2017 has no idea what it was to be, what it would be like in the sixties. Sixties or the seventies. It’s a whole other world now. 01:18 SR: Yeah. Okay, what age did you figure out you were different? Or just not like everyone else. 01:28 DM: Probably 12 or 13. 12 or 13, for sure. But the seventies brought about an impact for gay people because on television you were seeing all kinds of television shows and made-for-T.V. specials about gay teenagers, gay men and women, transsexuals, and people having operations and stuff like sex changes. Which were really groundbreaking television shows, that were being presented, and if you’re an inquisitive person you watched those TV shows and you’d wonder “what the hell is going on” because you don’t really hear that spoken around, you know, the family table. But once you see it on TV you know there are other people out there just like you. And today you have a lot of things with the transgender and the sex changes, but it’s common   2   �place now and it was just unheard of by the sixties and the seventies. It wasn’t spoken about or anything. So when you did see something like that, that was groundbreaking. 02:36 SR: Did that impact you in any way? Did that make you feel more comfortable? 02:41 DM: Well I knew there were other people out there like myself. 02:43 SR: Yeah. 02:44 DM: I wasn’t alone. And I never thought I was isolated because, you know, you constantly would hear people joke about living in Roanoke. But Roanoke was the third largest city in the state. There was Norfolk, Richmond, and Roanoke. Outside of that you were living in bodock. I mean, you were living in the hills. And I always have that to be thankful for because at that time even as being in a population of a hundred thousand people, this was a major place. And truly there were gay people in Roanoke. Lots of gay people in Roanoke. So I wasn’t isolated. I wasn’t living out in some farm community. Roanoke was the city. And you saw gay people even though they were very low key.     03:32 SR: What age did you decide to come out? Or did it just like happen? Like, you didn’t have to tell? 03:41 DM: Well, I was definitely in high school. And I actually went to Jefferson High School but I didn’t finish because they closed the school in ’74 and it became Patrick Henry [High School]. But everyone stayed at the school because they didn’t have enough room to, you know, force to occupy the campus, but I ended up graduating from Patrick Henry High. But I was at what they called the Jefferson Hall campus, and I had lots of gay friends at Jefferson Hall. Especially my lesbian friends. Gay men didn’t actually come out and really be vocal about it, but I swear the lesbians didn’t care. I’m telling you. I love them and [chuckles] I just absolutely love them. Because they just, they had found out. Oh, they’d found that meaning for their lives, I’m not kidding. And I had a lot of lesbian friends. 04:36 SR: Were your parents, family, and friends accepting? Or did you have a hard time? 04:44   3   �DM: In the community you grow up in Roanoke, especially [the] Afro-American community, it’s very hard for them to understand that one of their children is a homosexual, or lesbian. It’s really hard. But, I will say this, and I don’t want to offend anyone. They do tolerate their children to where they, at most parts, they will let them stay with them or stay home even though that’s the situation. Compared to my white counterparts who many of families threw them out. They all got thrown out of their homes. And it was a common place thing. They got kicked out. And we didn’t. And it’s still like that today in some places. 05:41 SR: Right. 05:42 DM: Their family members throw them out and I don’t know if that’s because of a generational or cultural thing. Or is it just that when you sometimes, they find out one of their children are different and everything else, or because of religious beliefs or whatever, they’ve got to go. But I can say for the Afro-American community pretty much, they seldom ever throw their children in the street simply because of being gay. Seldom. I’m not saying there isn’t any, but it’s seldom done. Seldom. They just sort of like keep it quiet and just don’t make a lot of attention to yourself, but hell, you’re gay. What do you want… what attention do you not want to bring to yourself? You’re not like your brothers and sisters, and they can egg you on about all kinds of things. But you know, siblings are siblings. 06:34 SR: Okay, so going off of when you were talking about your high school life. So, what was it like? Did you have a good time? Was it fun? Was it hard? 06:44 DM: No. I’m a very outgoing person. 06:46 SR: Oh good. 06:47 DM: I really am. I’m the same person I am now today as I was in high school. I didn’t give a damn if you liked me or not. [Laughs] And I didn’t care if I sat at the right table. You know there’s this thing about kids sitting at the right table with the right group. I sit my ass at your table and I didn’t care if you liked it or not [Laughs]. I was really a hated person. People didn’t want to be around a lot of gay guys. Think about it. 07:09 SR: Yeah. 07:10   4   �DM: I’m sitting there andm you know, you’re a guy, you’re the jock of… and you and your buddies are sitting there and then all of a sudden I sit my fat ass down next to you and start talking to you. That brings a whole lot of tension but I just wanna be friendly. I’m not necessarily trying to hit on you or anything like that. I just want to see what’s going on with everybody. But I wasn’t trying to hide anything. Everybody knew who I was. And… 07:33 SR: Were you bullied? 07:33 DM: It was relaxed. 07:34 SR: Were you bullied in anyway? 07:37 DM: I had a couple of fights. I had several fights. But you don’t run from your bully. Not from where I come from. It’s just not done. You just take the ass-whooping or not. It’s just what you do, I’m serious. You just take it or you give one. But one or the other. You don’t run home. Because you’re gonna have your family send you right back outside and find the guy or guys that was gonna beat you up. You better come home with some scars and some missing teeth. 08:15 SR: [laughter and inaudible sound] 08:16 DM: There is no running from your bully. I’m not saying that gay men and gay women aren’t bullied, you know sometimes to the point where there is nobody to help them. But I’m in a family where I’ve got brothers and sisters and I’ve got cousins. Were comin’ for yo ass [laughter]. You can believe it, Frank. It’s not gonna happen like that. And it didn’t happen like that for me. I wasn’t isolated. I had an insulated family and if you’ve peaked on it, it’s just like living in, you know, rural Virginia and these people who live out in the country, you pick on one, you pick on them all. So, and that’s the truth. I wasn’t worried about anything like that. There’d be retaliation from my family and my friends. So I was one of the lucky ones. 09:05 SR: Okay. Moving on. When you were in high school did you have any romantic relationships or did you date any girls? Or you never even went by any girls? 09:17 DM: No I had lots of female friends. 09:18   5   �SR: Okay. 09:19 DM: And I don’t consider them my dates. I just had lots of female friends. We had a ball. We had an absolute ball together. Even to this day I have lots of female friends. They don’t live with me or anything like that. They just drink and pass out here and, you know, take their bras off or whatever and fall asleep and I just put them to bed. I don’t care. Now their husband calls me asks me “is my wife there?” and I go “yes.” Still to this day, just like in high school. “Your girlfriend is over here passed the hell out.” Because gay women—not gay women—but women per se, usually want to have a gay male friend. But not necessarily an effeminate gay friend. I’m talking about somebody that says something to you in a bar, imma punch his ass out. And you know that limp wrist thing, that’s all a myth for a lot of gay men. No, we’ll take you out. We’ll take you out. But gay women love having a gay male friend. Their boyfriends and husband don’t usually care for it, and the problem with me is that my women friends who I had through high school and college, I lost a great many of them once they married. Because once they became Mrs. Somebody, their husbands doesn’t always see it, you know, for their wives to be coming over here and hanging out with me while I’m partying and I’m single and their married and trying to start families and stuff like that. You don’t want to be partying with Don 24/7, you’re married now. You know what I’m saying? That’s the only heartbreak for me as far as my women friends came. They got married and started families and I just didn’t see them anymore except for the few that I see now. 11:06 SR: Did you party or go out downtown in high school? Downtown Roanoke? 11:12 DM: [Talking over interviewer] Oh god yes. People said.., 11:13 SR: What was it like? [laughter] 11:16 DM: In the sixties and late sixties and all through the seventies, downtown Roanoke was the red light district. We’re talking hoes [prostitutes]. Guys dressed up in women’s clothing. Making a living, or trying to make a living, if you want to use the term “drag queens.” Which was really funny because the statute of the law back then, the police would arrest you if you were in women’s clothing. You never seen so many drag queens jump over a car like Elly May Clampett from the Beverly Hillbillies trying to run from the police. Because they would arrest you even if you weren’t soliciting sexual favors or whatever. Downtown—the City Market—was just dive bars and prostitutes and drag queens and the businesses that were down there, but it was a gritty place after business hours. And it became a whole other world. I loved it. I spent most of my time downtown. At bars like The Manhattan,   6   �The Capitol, Miss Tonies, the Ole Belmont, the Last Straw, these places are all gone. But they were full of gay people. And lesbians and gays and people who just didn’t care. They just didn’t care. Roanoke was like Dodge City downtown at night. It’s not like that today. It’s been what you call regenterfied [gentrified] or something. They’ve cleaned it up. I hate it. Absolutely hate downtown Roanoke. [Laughter] It’s just not any fun. 13:19 SR: So, after high school did you go onto college? 13:22 DM: I did. I attended Ferrum college. 13:24 SR: Okay. What did you major in or did you have any…? 13:28 DM: I majored in paralegal studies. I didn’t finish but I majored in it. 13:33 SR: [Laughter] 13:34 DM: I thought I wanted to work in a law office, but then I got the creative bug in me and I went on to start writing and singing and doing demos and backup singing and that kind of thing. Worked with that to see what happened with that. 13:52 SR: Tell me a little bit about that. I wanna know. 13:56 DM: It worked out for me with some people. Trying to make it in the industry is hard but everybody thinks if you’re a gay person, you know, that’s one of the safe places to go. Is the entertainment industry. You can be who you want to be. So it was just sort of like a logical thing for me to pursue it. Song writing and playwriting or be a playwrite or theater. Everybody thinks everybody is gay in theater anyway so, you know, who knows? I don’t know. But it was pretty good. It didn’t pay a lot. Didn’t pay a lot. 14:35 SR: Did you stick with that? Through your twenties and so on? 14:40 DM: I did. I’m still doing it now. Still doing it now.   7   �14:44 SR: Okay. 14:45 DM: I write. I’ve had some good moments where my songs won quite a few awards and I got recognition for them, even in Roanoke. Most people don’t think there is a lot of talented people or men and women in here but there are. Roanoke has a well spring of talented people. They just don’t have the push or many of them need to leave this town and go somewhere else to figure out that Roanoke isn’t just the only place you can play in a local bar or something like that. You need to get out of here. 15:22 SR: Yeah. Did you plan on moving? Did you go anywhere? 15:26 DM: From Roanoke, I left to go to D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, Nashville, L.A., Montreal, and London, England. I got out. 15:39 SR: [Laughter] 15:40 DM: I got out. 15:42 SR: What place was your favorite? 15:45 DM: In America, D.C. and New York. Even though Washington is a very political city, it has a great music and arts scene. One of the best. London was overrated. It’s nice but it was overrated. 16:04 SR: What’d you like about New York? 16:07 DM: Well, when I lived there it was gritty and it was the murder capital of the world. And you could get an apartment for 300 [dollars] a month. Now, a one bedroom apartment in New York is like 2300 dollars. I liked it when it was just dirty New York. Graffiti on the wall and people throwing, you know, crap in your face every time you go in front of somebody. It was very confrontational, so if you’re gonna move to New York, and you’re sort of a timid person, you’re gonna come out of that real quick. The downside of it was being that I was a gay person, I saw a lot of tragedy for young gay youths, not just Afro-Americans. They come out of the foster care   8   �systems and homes and stuff and they find their way to New York but they have no family and they have no support so they ended up in really, really dangerous [situations], and usually they died: suicide, murder, whatever. But New York was just that way. The city takes you very quickly. 17:10 SR: Did you feel accepted there? 17:12 DM: As far as New York is concerned, God yes. You’re talking about gay? Overly gay. I wanted some of them to move to Jersey or something so they can’t be so many damn gay people in New York [laughter]. It was really gay. Was it safe in the seventies and eighties? No. It was a very unsafe city. 17:33 SR: So we’re working with The Drop-In Center and we’re talking about the stigma of HIV and AIDS and so, what was that like in the eighties? 17:45 DM: Well most of the people here had no idea about the… I don’t know if there was a rise or resurgence of any HIVs to the point where people are dying at a record rate. I’m not sure about that. I could be wrong. But in the point from when I first realized that the gay situation of the AIDS epidemic was happening, it’s 1978.1 I’m in Washington, D.C. Now, I’m saying this from my own point of view. People on the east coast, D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, we knew that things were happening. But we were basically pointing towards San Francisco. We thought it was just something happening in the Golden Gate area and around California. We thought that was just where it was happening and it was sort of an isolated thing. It wasn’t happening anywhere else. We were wrong. Boy were we wrong. Because by the mid-eighties, it had taken everybody, and as I said I was in D.C. People don’t realize what it was like to have a friend who was at that time diagnosed and dying, because you would have to have a friend, a very good friend, to come to the hospital sometime to even feed you and dress you. Because the dietary staff would not come into your room and feed you. You seldom got a doctor to come in to see you. Because it was so new and it was so, people were so afraid. By the time you end up dying and have to go home, you have lost your job, you don’t have anywhere to go, and if you’re one of the kids who came here whose family had thrown them out and that kind of thing, you are really up shit creek. So, you’re out in the street, nowhere to go, there is no medicines for you, and you’re gonna die. One of your friends have got to take you in. Cause you’re not going home. And normally, that’s just the way it was. And I lost so many friends between where I was living in D.C. and New York that these kids today, or I                                                                                                                         1    N.B.: the first AIDS cases were reported in the media in New York City in 1981. 9   �should say a population of the gay America today, they can’t fathom it. You don’t know what it was like to lose three, four, five hundred people in less than a year or two. They’re all dead. 20:09 SR: Did you have any like special friend that passed away? 20:13 DM: I took care of at least a dozen friends in the past 25 years. But they all died. They were gonna die. There was no… At those times there was no medicines like they have now. Those cocktails didn’t exist then and many medications that they were on, the side effects were as bad as dying. So they died. 20:36 SR: Did it affect you in any way? 20:41 DM: In ways that I think about it now, yes. Because you don’t have any friends that you had in the ‘70s. Let’s say the 70s. Here it is 2017 and ninety percent of your friends are dead. But you have to keep living on. You have to make new friends. Younger friends even, because all your old friends are dead. So you can’t just sit around looking through scrapbooks and thinking about what he or she was like. They’re gone, and they’ve been gone 35, 40 years. They’re not coming back. And you had a good time with them for a small period, a small window in time, you had a really good time with these people, but then you wake up one morning and you look at one of the gay papers, let’s say The Blade, in the obituary columns, and you know ten people in there. So it was hard. 21:36 SR: How did you make new friends after this all happened? 21:46 DM: Gay bars. You meet men. You drink. They find you attractive and if they don’t, you buy them another drink. At some point they will find you attractive [laughter]. That’s the secret to that, and even that sometimes you play a shell game. You get one of your friends to front for you and you talk to the guy and you’ll see what happens. New York was very strange. If you wanna talk about clean bars and safe bars, where you’re just gonna come in and have a drink and maybe some hors d’oeuvres or something and you trying to meet a professional guy, that’s a total different setting. Most of the bars in New York were gritty bars. They were very gritty bars and I’m not gonna say it in this interview because you’d have to cancel out everything I’m about to say. 22:39 SR: Okay. Did you have any like serious relationships?   10   �22:44 DM: I did. My first lover was an entertainment columnist for Billboard magazine. I met him in Las Vegas and that’s one reason I don’t have a big thing about the people in the entertainment industry. We had a very good ten years together and being that he was a writer for Billboard magazine, there was nowhere we didn’t go in the entertainment world. We were invited to a lot of things. I will say one thing. You know there’s a song, there was a very famous woman. Her name was Ethel Merman and she did this song called, I think it was “No Business Like Show Business.” But the reality is, in the song, I tell people not everything about them is appealing. Some of them are just real dogs, you’d wish you never met them because sometimes you idealize people in the industry and then you get to meet them. You go home and tear all that stuff up about them that you love so much because they are the biggest asses. But you find that out once you get up and close with them. But I was glad that Timothy and I were ten years together and I got to be exposed in the industry, like I said earlier in this interview, I wanted to do something in the entertainment world. It put me directly there. Right in it. But I was just at the right place at the right time. I had moved to Las Vegas and he was working for a newspaper doing a weekly column when I met him. 24:23 SR: Okay, so I guess moving on, what was life like in your thirties? Was it completely different in your twenties? Was it more fun? 24:37 DM: You party in your twenties. And you’re almost dead in your thirties. Especially if you’re gay, in the sense that gay men who like to party, and women who like to party, and if you’re living in a major city, going out is a lifeblood thing. There are people who say “we don’t go out; I’ve got a lover now or I’ve never been that kind of person who wanted to go to bars.” There are lots of gay men who will tell you “I’m not a bar person and I don’t want to go to a bar to meet a guy.” Those guys are fine; they just are not bar entities. On the other hand, part of that corn, it’s your lifeblood, you’re not going to meet anybody if you don’t go to the bars. If you don’t go to their cocktail parties and you don’t go to their brunches, you’re out of the loop. You’ve got to go. And Washington [D.C.] was a very strange place because, being that it’s a political city, every four years the people who you knew that were Republicans got thrown out if the Democrats came in, and vice versa. The Democrats came in, the Republicans came in, they lost their jobs. So you said “tootaloo” to them, “bye, I loved you a lot,” but that’s a different administration in there. They all leave. They go back to wherever they came from because they don’t stay in the city once the new administration comes in. 26:02 SR: Were you ever married or close to being married? 26:06   11   �DM: I was married three times…and that’s all I’m going to say pretty much about that [laughter]. 26:14 SR: That’s fine. So I guess we will transition to your forties. Was it better or worse? 26:27 DM: I came into my own in my forties. I came into my own. I really started pushing myself with my writing and my playwriting. And I sort of calmed down. I was single. I was alone. I was still dating. I’m a pretty attractive guy [laughter]. Pretty interesting. So I wasn’t lacking in the dating situation. It was just that I just didn’t want to settle down with just any guy. And I’ll bring this up, even though this hasn’t been said. If you are in a relationship, outside of dating another AfroAmerican guy, if you are in an interracial [relationship], like my lover Timothy was from Billboard, there’s a whole lot you have to deal with. A lot. 27:26 SR: Was it different compared to dating an African American? 27:32 DM: Even in the gay community, they have problems with interracial couples. And I mean even if you’re an Asian guy dating a white guy. Or you’re Italian and you’re dating somebody from Denmark or something. They have a problem with not sticking with Italian-Italian, black and black, white and white. Not all. But you can get some real assholes who just can’t see how that’s possible that the two of you can be together and you have to confront it. You can’t be sly about it. You have to confront it, nip it in its bud right then and there. 28:15 SR: Is that what you did? 28:16 DM: You can believe it. 28:17 SR: I can see it… Okay. Did you feel like you had the most success in your forties? Because you were saying with your playwriting… 28:26 DM: I don’t think it has happened yet. I just recently signed a young man who came by Saturday, yesterday, to do a project for me. He is so talented. I hope this is the one that brings it all on the table. 28:44   12   �SR: Okay. I guess we can talk about, again, your fifties. What was it like? Better? 28:53 DM: I outlived everybody. I outlived everybody. Parents became old and died. Siblings died. Really good friends died. But as I said earlier, you can’t dwell on that. You’ve got to make new friends. You have to keep alert. Even if you live alone… I live alone but I’m a pretty happy guy. I live by myself but I’m not without any friends. I’ve got lots of friends in the city of Roanoke, but not a partner. And if that was to happen I’d be okay with it. I’d be alright with it, if the person who I liked a lot was somebody I thought I wanted to put up with. But now you can marry, you can marry now, and I’m just waiting to see, for those who’ve given a matrimony, “I dos,” how long most of them stay together, because it’s too early to say that you know it’s a winwin thing, but I know everybody wanted it, as many people wanted to be married and be recognized by it, so we’ll see. If somebody reads this article and says “I’m going to go after that guy after I read this article,” I’m available. Trust me. 30:29 SR: How did you feel when gay marriage was passed by the law in June 2014?2 30:37 DM: I was happy. I didn’t like all the people who started sending me wedding invitations, because I didn’t like a lot of them to begin with. But they got married and I sent them something. 30:48 SR: Did you go to them or no? 30:49 DM: Oh no, I’ve gone to several. Several little private homes in the city. They didn’t necessarily have big church weddings, but they rented out a hall and had the reception and got married at Justices of the Peace or got married out in the park or something. It was nice and it was different. But you know you still get them a wedding gift. 31:13 SR: So, do you feel that it’s better to be gay now in 2017 compared to like the ‘70s and the ‘80s? 31:23 DM: Yeah. It’s better to be gay, even a younger gay person now. Because everybody who has gone prior to them have already bit the dust and done the things that really needed to be done to be gay. I mean [they] really took the beating. You can be gay now, I swear to God. You can go to see these kids now out at the clubs and out in school or whatever, they have these organizations for kids. I shouldn’t say kids, but the gay youth population. You can really be a                                                                                                                         2  N.B.: Virginia began to allow same-sex marriages in October 2014. Federal recognition of marriage equality came in June 2015. Both instances were the result of judicial decisions rather than legislation.   13   �gay teenager now, even though you may still get bullying and that kind of a thing. Which is different from what we went through because now everything seems to be on the internet. Everybody wants to kill you on the internet by saying something ugly to you. Before they just said it in your face. Now you have to read it online. I don’t get that. Not that I’m some sort of ancient dinosaur. I just don’t get it. I don’t get it. 32:28 SR: Are you involved with anything in the LGBTQ community? 32:34 DM: Not anymore. 32:37 SR: What did you used to do? 32:38 DM: In the D.C. area, I used to do a lot. When they would have the Gay Pride, I was always at somebody’s table, working for an entity of that type, whether it was like the gay defense funds or something like that, lawyers, women lawyers for gay men, and all that kind of stuff, whatever it may be. I would always work that day with some sort of organization to help out. I really don’t do that much down here. I can’t tell you why I don’t. It’s just that I haven’t. I just haven’t. 33:18 SR: You mentioned Gay Pride. Did you like going there? Was it fun? 33:23 DM: Roanoke or DC or New York? Which? 33:25 SR: All of them, any of them. 33:28 DM: Roanoke’s Gay Pride has changed a lot and there’s more and more people who come out for it, but once again I don’t really recognize anybody when I go there. Maybe a handful of people that I can relate to from a day in time that I’m talking about, that come to the Pride organization. Everybody else is 18 to 21. I don’t know who they are. But I mean they’re gay just like myself. They are just really young, so I just sort of walk around and see what’s up with them. 34:09 SR: You were just mentioning the younger people, what would you say to someone that is struggling to come out?   14   �34:20 DM: Closets are for clothes. Just redo your closet. Don’t live in your closet… [laughter]. You’ll thank me for this. 34:41 SR: In your free time what do you like to do right now? 34:55 DM: Write. Write in my journal. I like going out to dinner with friends. Let’s go out tonight. One of my friends is a very good artist, painter here in the city. I go with him a lot to the art galleries and shows. Him and his wife just recently married and I go to dinner. They come here. And I knew him when he was just struggling. We’ve been together a long time. He’s one of the few people that I can relate to, of still being around, and we’ve known each other for so long. Outside of that, the city has changed. There’s a whole lot to do now. There’s much more to do here in Roanoke than there used to be. You just have to be open to doing it. 36:01 SR: What made you come back to Roanoke? 36:06 DM: I needed to get myself together and get out of the bigger city because it was going to kill me if I didn’t find some time to come home and relax and really depress [decompress]. D.C. and New York will take it all out of you. All out of you. And running 24/7 with friends, trying to be on top of it and be gay at the same time, that’s a lot to do. That’s a lot to do. I actually found myself in a comfort zone coming back here. Roanoke is one of those cities where it’s affordable to live. I tell my friends in D.C. and New York now that I pay $575 for this thing. You pay 4,000 dollars for a studio, you know? They need to come to Roanoke. 37:02 SR: Has Roanoke changed a lot while you were gone? 37:05 DM: God, yes. 37:07 SR: In what ways? 37:10 DM: The attitudes have changed a lot but it’s still a very segregated city. It doesn’t want to think of itself like that, but it still very much is. Everybody has their own little plot of land that is theirs in their little enclaves whether you live in Old Southwest, where we are today, or Hunting Hills—not the Hunting Hills but Avenham area—or Southeast, or Northwest, very territorial.   15   �And seldom do they get along unless it’s necessary. But you have to give Roanoke one thing, it is a Democratically held city. And that’s a good thing if you’re a Democrat. If you’re Republican here, you need to move! [laughter] Yes, I said it. That ought to make a few people uncomfortable. But it’s true. Roanoke is a Democratically held city, but that bothers me too because it’s like living in San Diego or something, it’s all Republicans, so if you’re from another party, you can forget it whether you gay, straight, or whatever. And I don’t know what the gay community’s political choices are. Are all gays in Roanoke Democrats? Or are some of them Libertarians? I’m not sure. 38:51 SR: Do you think people are more accepting here in Roanoke now or is it little different? 38:57 DM: Well, people die off, you know what I’m saying? The old regime. They die. But their daughters, sons, and grandchildren take some of that with them. They still hold onto a lot of crazy realities. But I don’t blame them, I don’t. It’s something that they still hold on to, and, you know, you have to pick it apart. You have to be very careful of what you want to do with these people and my credo is: pick your battle. Pick your battle, don’t tote anyone else’s water, and you will live a long life. There’s too many gay people who go out and fight all these different battles, even if it’s just for the gay causes. Just pick the one that really is something you’re interested in, leave the other nineteen problems to somebody else cause you’re not going to get it done. Policy in these things are what the problem is and you can’t change state legislation and policies overnight. It could take ten, fifteen, twenty years before anything changes. You could be working on that particular thing for years and years and years and years. You get burnt out. 40:29 SR: Do you think that the segregation will ever change in Roanoke? Cause I feel like there is a little bit of a divide in Roanoke from what I can tell, and do you think in the next few years it will be different or no? 40:49 DM: It’s not just Roanoke. The internet has brought about a whole new reality of segregation for everybody. You now go online to talk about faggots, lesbians, the Ku Klux Klan, Princess Leia. I don’t care. People get online now and say the most hateful things and it’s because you can be an anonymous person online, have all kinds of hate speech, tweet it, or whatever, which brings back the old problems that most people didn’t want to address to begin with. Now it’s in the “wild wild west” of the internet. You can be a complete ass now and just, you know, sign on and sign off, and if the segregation speech is what you’re after, you can find it. You can find it even in Roanoke. In Roanoke. But once again you got to stand up to that kind of crap. You have to pick your battle. If you see it coming towards you, you have to nip it in its bud. You really do. Segregation is segregation. I’ve been in much worse cities than Roanoke where the segregation is just rampant.   16   �42:16 SR: Yeah. Where’s that? 42:18 DM: Well, parts of Baltimore that was even like that. Baltimore is a very separated, segregated city, and it’s a much larger city. Parts of California is like that. You would think that it would be very progressive. They’re not. They’re not. 42:52 SR: [long pause] Okay. So… Sorry. [long pause] I’m sorry. So if there is one thing you could change about Roanoke, what would it be? 43:21 DM: That gay people and really progressive people change what the problems are in your community. Don’t just sit there and say well somebody else will do this. Wrong. You need to put your name on a ballot. You know, really get out there and do a grassroots thing if you think something could be changed and made better. And challenge the status quo. Otherwise it will not change. People get very comfortable just watching stuff slowly happen. Just slowly happen. And usually tell you “don’t make waves, don’t make waves about stuff. Just leave things as they are. People are happy.” They’re not. They’re not. 44:14 SR: Do you have any plans to move somewhere else or do you plan on staying in Roanoke? 44:20 DM: I would stay here. Keep a place in Roanoke regardless if I’ve decided to move. I’d keep somewhere here. Happiness doesn’t matter where you move. Home is where you make it. 44:37 SR: Right. 44:38 DM: If you’re unhappy in New York, you’ll be unhappy in New York. If you’re unhappy in Roanoke, you’ll be unhappy in Roanoke. It won’t make any difference. It won’t make any difference. 44:49 SR: Do you think you’ve challenged the status quo of being a gay black man? 44:58 DM: Many times. And [I’m] alive.   17   �45:04 SR: Right. 45:05 DM: Because I can encounter a very bad thing quickly and whether its police or anything of that nature, you’ve got to be on guard. I mean on point, or it could go bad really quickly. But you can’t be afraid of it. Being gay and black and in America puts me at the most risk of anybody in this country. I’ve really had challenges most people have no idea about day in, day out. But I’m not afraid to walk out my door and I’m not afraid of confrontation, even if it comes my way. But when they find out you’re gay and black male, you got a double whammy and you got to deal with it cause it’s not going to go away. It’s never going to go away. 46:06 SR: You mentioned the police, have you ever had anything happen, cause right now police brutality is… 46:12 DM: Police brutality isn’t new. You know, I remember the very first time I thought police were crazy and I remember it was in the ‘60s and we were watching these civil rights people being beat up and dogs biting them and stuff and it was on television. But it’s 1962, ’63, and America is getting its first view of what this nation really is like. Racism is not something everybody wants to talk about, but I’m not talking about from the standpoint of [the] LGB community and Afro-Americans. I’m talking about no matter what you wanna say. We don’t wanna talk about it. We just don’t. The system is rigged. The system is rigged. Housing is rigged. Politics is rigged. You’ve got to challenge everybody. There’s no easy way to walk in and say, “well, these people will be okay with this and they won’t mind.” You’re out of your damn mind. What do you think it is, Oz? Listen. It’s not like that at all. It’s a constant challenge. Even if you are a woman today. Women face the same problems of getting what they want constantly to prove their point. The Planned Parenthood thing now going on. The Roe vs. Wade which has always been one of the big issues. Women in this country don’t realize what it was like in the ‘50s and the ‘60s. When you would be getting your abortion behind Sunny Side Market. 47:56 SR: Wow. 47:57 DM: No safety nets. No safety nets. Or some woman who was an orderly in a hospital, who had worked, had a little bit of medical knowledge, would be doing your abortion. You may or may not come home. Most women don’t realize that or can’t remember that. But ask your mother and your grandmother. You’ll want to hold onto certain things that are a woman’s right. You should fight for it because it’s your right. As a woman, who am I to tell you what to do with your [body]? I mean if you let me tell you how you could stop all of this, tell men you’re going to get   18   �a vasectomy at fifteen whether you like it or not. That will be the end of that because that’s not happening. No man is going to have you tell him how to deal with his sexual life and his reproduction thing. If you had a class action suit that was saying something that men have now got to at a certain age stop reproducing—you can only have one child or two children like you have in China—you’d have a war on your hands here in America. No man would put up with that. 49:16 SR: Right. 49:17 DM: You’d have legislation to have you put in jail. But on the opposite side of the coin they want to tell you how you are supposed to handle your sexual life. Screw them. 49:35 SR: Is that what you live by? Screw them? 49:37 DM: I tell all my friends. When I was in high school, I had several friends of mine—female friends—who terminated their pregnancies because they didn’t want a baby and they couldn’t bring a baby into the world and they lived in a family situation bringing a child wasn’t gonna help anything. We had to go to Richmond. You could go to Richmond before you could go to Roanoke. There was a clinic here. But normally most of them went to Richmond because it was easy to leave Roanoke and get it done in Richmond and come back. 50:17 SR: So, moving on, what do you think about the new bathroom bill in North Carolina? 50:24 DM: I don’t get it. 50:26 SR: Why’s that? 50:27 DM: No. I’m just saying I don’t get it. So if you’re transgender… If I transgendered, and I go to North Carolina, that means I can still go into the man’s bathroom because I was born a man? Is that what it really means? Instead of going to the bathroom cause now I’m a woman. I want someone to clarify that for me. 50:53 SR: I think so. Yeah. Yeah.   19   �50:58 DM: So, okay. That’s confusing for anybody. If I was just coming from a sports event, let’s say you’re at one of the stadiums and I come in pretty much an effeminate sex-changed guy, but I didn’t have it all finished, you’re going to get some feedback from that. You just are. Or if you go into the women’s bathroom and you used to be a man and there are women sitting there even though some of them are going to be accepting of you. There are going to be women in there who are not so great. So I don’t know what to tell you on that one. 51:33 SR: Yeah. 51:34 DM: Cause that confuses even me. 51:36 SR: Mhm. 51:37 DM: So I know why everybody else is fighting what it means. Cause it’s just confusing. If you’re going to be transgender and you’re transgendering to a woman and you pretty much look like that woman and you don’t really look anymore different than that, then for me I don’t care if you go into the women’s bathroom. But if you decide to say “well, I used to be a man, I’m going to go into the man’s bathroom now.” Why did you want to transgender and be a woman? If you’re gonna still use the men’s room? 52:04 SR: Yeah. 52:05 DM: I’m not trying to be spark or anything. It’s just confusing to me. 52:11 SR: Yeah. 52:12 DM: So I don’t know what views other people have on it. 52:27 SR: Do you think your life would have been completely different if you weren’t an outgoing person? Because you seem very outgoing and fun. 52:33   20   �DM: Yes it would have been. I never wanted to be one of those gay men or women in the bar, then they became lushes and drunks. Because see, they were lonely. The problem with gay society, as far as gay men are concerned, everything is youth-orientated. You have to be a goodlooking guy for the longest time where men are concerned. Gay men are concerned. But what gay men don’t realize: you will age. So your handsome little ass at twenty-one is hot now but you will be forty soon, really faster than you know. Your life will change. And those same guys that you come into the bar when you’re forty, forty-five won’t speak to you because you’re a older gay person or maybe your looks have changed a great deal. “Boy, you used to be a real hottie.” That’s the only problem I found in years and years of going into the bars. It’s so superficial about looks and body and you had to look a certain way to, you know, get whatever. I never considered myself a good-looking guy. I’m not. I don’t consider myself a good-looking man at all. But what I am is charismatic. So I got lots of dates. And I had lots of handsome men who dated me. But it wasn’t because of my looks. It was because I was an outgoing and sure of myself person. And the other thing was I was Afro-American and gay. I was really an oddity. I was an oddity. I think I still am an oddity to a lot of men because they’re not used to seeing a black man doing but so many things and definitely not thinking about dating him, or me, unless you know you can find some common ground with this guy. Otherwise it’s just a date or two or just, you know, one of those one night sexual things. And it’s over. It’s done. You’re not going to have any long-term relationship with this guy. 54:51 SR: Right. 54:52 DM: It’s just the way it is. 54:54 SR: Yeah. How did you get so much confidence? 55:01 DM: If you live in America and you’re Afro-American, you don’t have time to cry about it. [laughing] 55:07 SR: Yeah. 55:08 DM: You don’t have time to have the blues. You don’t have time to worry about if something went wrong or what I’m going to do from here. Or is someone going to help me, give me a… what do you call it? A hand up, or whatever. 55:18 SR: Yeah.   21   �55:19 DM: Those are illusions. They are absolutely something that you don’t have time to think about. Because lots of times when you leave your parents’ home or your community, you got to make it. You got to make it. 55:34 SR: Yeah. Did you ever have a low point? Or were you ever lonely at some point? 55:42 DM: Yes. Probably when several friends of mine came back from New York that was buried here and I would attend their funeral. I would be at some point at a low point, you know, that day or that month thinking about them. 56:02 SR: Yeah. 56:05 DM: That was probably the worst. I’ve had friends who were murdered here in the city. You know, they found their bodies and they committed suicide and you get a low point at that moment when you know you get a phone call. I was at my lowest I think when the Backstreet shooting happened,3 because someone who I used to date was shot and I remember his mother called me to come to the hospital because she said “I don’t think he’s going to make it, so you need to come now.” So I did. I mean he had another lover at the time. But I came to see him because they just didn’t think he would pull through. I’m going to say that was my lowest point when the shooting happened and I knew several people at the bar that night that you know including the guy that died. The Overstreet guy [Danny Overstreet]. That was probably my lowest point here in Roanoke. 57:12 SR: Really? What was the shooting? 57:14 DM: Backstreet. 57:14 SR: Okay. 57:15                                                                                                                         3 Backstreet was a shooting that occurred on September 22, 2000 when Ronald Gay walked into Backstreet Café on Salem Avenue with the intention of shooting gay people. He injured six people and killed one.   22   �DM: Backstreet had a shooting in 2000… was it [200]1? You could look online. It says the Backstreet shooting. The guys who killed those people was named Ronald Gay. G-A-Y. But it was September 22nd. I’m gonna tell you exactly when it happened. 57:34 SR: Okay. 57:35 DM: I was at home watching a TV show at the time. It was called “The Commissioner,” or something like that, it came on CBS. And one of my best friends, we normally went to Backstreet on Friday night because it was a popular place to go. And we decided not to go. He said “well, let’s just do Saturday night.” I said “fine, cause I’m tired.” By one o’clock in the morning, my phone is ringing off the wall with people telling me that people had been shot and murdered and killed at the bar. And for the next probably several months, Roanoke is the most watched and televised city in the United States. There is news media from around the world that has ascended [descended] on Roanoke because of the Backstreet murder. Prior to what you see today in Atlanta and Orlando, that thing happened here. “Nightline” with Ted Coppell, ABC, NBC, British Press. They ascended on Roanoke. It was like nothing you’d ever seen in your life. And you couldn’t be in the closet then. Because the spotlight was on Roanoke. The world was on Roanoke. The City Council, I know I felt sorry for them, because they didn’t know what to do. They really didn’t. They had to change a lot of things quickly. So, the Orlando shooting just brought back a lot of things about safety and being safe, because I recently attended the Park. The bar called the Park. I had no idea they had that much outside security for you to get into that bar. The world has changed to where it’s just crazy to try to get inside of the bar now. Because any fool could have a concealed weapon or something inside of a boot or something or whatever. I don’t know. But it’s really nutty. I had never seen that much security at a bar locally here in the city. It threw me. 59:49 SR: What are your thoughts on the Orlando shooting?4 Did it bring back some memories? 59:53 DM: It did. It brought back the Backstreet shooting. 59:54 SR: Wow. 59:57 DM: And I felt sorry because there were even more people murdered there. He took out 19 or 20 people.5 This guy only ended up in Roanoke killing one person and injuring maybe four or five                                                                                                                         4 The Orlando shooting occurred June 2016 when Omar Seddique Mateen opened fire in Pulse Nightclub killing 49 people.   23   �people—you know, severely injured—but he killed one and that was enough. That was enough. But the Orlando people didn’t have the hatred for gays that happened with the funeral here after the shooting because you had that crazy guy from Westboro Baptist Church and all these hate groups that also came to Roanoke. And they picketed the funeral. So they had to have special security and, what do you call it, the State Troopers and all this other thing at the funeral. It was crazy. And it was sorta sad, too. 1:00:54 SR: Yeah. Okay, so we’re out of time but is there anything else you want to say? 1:01:06 DM: Tote no one’s water. That’s it. 1:01:13 SR: That’s it. Okay. Thank you so much. [END]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               5   Ibid. 24   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Don Muse Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Don Muse Interviewer: Sasha Roberts, Brooke Thacker, Victoria Preston Interviewee: Don Muse Date: 19 February 2017 Location: Home of Don Muse Total Duration: 1:01:18 Transcription prepared by: Victoria Preston, Brooke Thacker, Sasha Roberts Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Don Muse, Sasha Roberts, Brooke Thacker, Victoria Preston Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MuseDon https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3441/Rissa.MP3 0e9d0bb3f531bb1643521ba8eafedf71 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3441/Rissa.1.pdf 5cbde31fb4dbbe5868ab44ecba4f8c6a PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Rissa February 18, 2017 Interviewers: Omari Chancellor (Emily Brun also present) Interviewee: Rissa Date: February 18, 2017 Location: Roanoke Diversity Center Transcribed by: Ta’Tyana Buster and Jac Frost Duration: 56:22 0:00 – gender identity and clarification of terminology 2:34 - childhood in Lynchburg (late 1970s/ early 1980s); wearing women’s clothing; stealing clothes; Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority; conservatism of Lynchburg at the time 8:17 - acceptance in early school years; emotional challenges dealing with a hidden lifestyle; encounter with the criminal justice system (early 1980s) 10:48 – encounter with the court system; being labeled as having “homosexual” tendencies 13:02 - race and sexual attraction 14:22 - attending a boys home in Winchester, Virginia (1984-1987); early sexual experiences 17:25 - sexual attraction in the boys home; school life 19:14 - sexual experimentation in the boys home; how race and sexuality were perceived 22:24 - dealing with race at public high schools in Frederick County, Virginia, and Winchester, Virginia (c. 1986-1987) 26:37 - confrontations in high school, race and identity related; being feminine in a masculine environment 31:20 - experiences at Ferrum College (late 1980s) 34:44 – incarceration, and introduction to the LGBT community within prison 36:20 - experiences in prison, including sexual assault (1994) 38:26 - fond sexual encounters and relationships in prison 39:57 – memories of the AIDS epidemic (late 1980s – early 1990s) 42:15 – LGBT celebrities 43:29 - prison charges and motivations (early 1990s – early 2000s) 45:41 - relationships with mother and God; feelings on religion / spirituality 48:10 - LGBT celebrities and their present impact 51:28 - moving to Roanoke about one year ago 54:33 - Roanoke Diversity Center 0:00 OC: Hello, this is Omari Chancellor. I am here with [Rissa] at the Roanoke Diversity Center. It is February 18, 2017, Saturday. [Rissa] is a transsexual woman, pronouns preferred [are] she/her. Now, [Rissa], can I ask you what does that identity label mean to you? 0:34 R: I quite frankly think there’s a difference between transsexuals and transvestites, which I think most people think transvestites, see transvestites, as [a] “drag” type of person. I feel like as a 1 �transsexual that I want to make a transition from the male sex over to female and I take some steps to get from one to the other. 1:16 OC: Do you want to tell us a little about those steps? 1:18 R: Typically I had to go see a psychotherapist for a session. The psychotherapist wrote me a letter stating that basically I wasn’t crazy, I’m of sound mind, that he saw me as a person who needed to be on hormone treatment. So, he wrote me a letter so that I could go to a medical doctor to have the prescriptions prescribed. That’s just one phase that a person can go through. There’s also sex reassignment surgery and breast implants and that type of thing that a person can also choose. This of course is the male-to-female transition. It would also be done female-tomale for those individuals. 2:34 OC: Okay, thank you. Can we get into your childhood and when you started forming, during your formative years, when you began to think about identity and how you identify and started exploring things? 2:50 R: Sure. I started dressing in women’s—in girls’ clothes—when I was ten years old and I was pretty secretive for about a year until my mother walked in on me one day and saw me wearing some of her clothing. Her reaction was laughing at me, and she thought it was very funny and did some snickering which hurt my feelings pretty much, so mostly I stole these clothing. Once I didn’t like the way my mom’s clothes fit, I figured that I could get some smaller clothing that fit, I start stealing. My mom would go in my room, take whatever female clothing I had, and then I would just go and find a wig and go steal some more either from some store or somebody's house or whatever. That was the cycle I was going through for three or four years. 4:16 OC: And this was in the 1970s? You were ten, eleven [years old]? 4:20 R: Yes, late 70s. 4:22 OC: Okay, late 70s. Can you tell us about, I know you grew up in Lynchburg? 4:28 R: Right. 4:29 OC: Right, can you tell us about sort of the community there and how that affected the way you sort of sifted through your identity growing up? 4:38 R: Well, at the time... Lynchburg we had the wonderful Jerry Falwell alive, and he was a very conservative pastor. He also had a Baptist college back then, and he preached under a platform of Moral Majority, and was not tolerant of anything outside of biblical—what they considered straight bible. So, if there were any LGBT people, a community in Lynchburg at that time, 2 �talking late 70s, early 80s, they were definitely in the closet or undercover. But I’m positive that there were some LGBT people back then. They just weren’t in the open. They’re not going to walk down the street and say “Heyyyy!” 6:01 OC: So there was no platform for organizing? 6:04 R: No. 6:08 OC: Okay. And you told me this is the early 1980s, this is going on? Did you have anyone to talk to? Did you have anyone to sort through these feelings with? Express what you were feeling? 6:23 R: Absolutely not… and I wouldn’t even [try], with the atmosphere, like I said, because Jerry Falwell. He didn’t start out in the late 70s and early 80s. He had been preaching for years up to this point. So the atmosphere was terrible. There would be no way that I would try to say to anybody that I was either gay or transsexual or anything for fear of being ridiculed or made fun of or perhaps even some type of violence. And along with that the AIDS epidemic had just come out like early 80s and so that just—even though I wasn’t very educated about AIDS back then—it would not have been to my best interest to say in a conservative town which was ultra conservative that, you know, I’m transsexual, because I think if somebody like Jerry Fallwell would have heard that he probably would have flipped his wig. 7:51 OC: So, you know, did you have any spaces that you could feel safe or just any safe haven that you felt at your most comfortable during this time? 8:00 R: No. 8:02 OC: No. Okay. 8:04 R: I didn’t know how to find them. 8:06 OC: Right, okay. 8:07 R: … because I was a kid. I didn’t know who… if there was anybody, if there was anybody I could call up. I just didn’t know. 8:17 OC: And what about school during this time? What about how was this affecting academic life or how were you navigating school at this time? 8:26 R: I actually enjoyed school very much because school was like a safe haven for me away from 3 �my mother and she's like a totally different subject and I pretty much did good. The kids at school, they didn’t really… they weren’t educated about LGBT issues either, so I don’t know that they knew what to look for. So it wasn’t really something that they could really point out. We were just kids and it's not like today you could go to a school and an elementary school kid could probably tell you some stuff about LGBT people, you know. 9:22 OC: And did it ever reach a boiling point? Keeping all this bottled up? All these feelings and, you know, just the exploration of your identity? 9:32 R: Yea… like I said, after I’ve gone through this cycle of stealing clothes and stuff and dealing with my mom from eleven to fourteen years old, which is from ‘82, ‘83, maybe ’84, I ended up… [pause]… assaulting someone, and so that was pretty much because all my feelings and emotions were not getting dealt with. And it just became a time to where it had to explode, it had to go somewhere, and so this person got assaulted. And I had to go deal with the criminal justice system. 10:41 OC: Okay, and where did that take you? Did they have you speak to someone? Or did they charge you and just send you away? 10:48 R: I did actually get a charge but the court wanted to do a psychological evaluation and the psychologist first spoke to my mom. My mom revealed to them about my dressing in girls’ clothes. In light of that, [then] the psychologist talked to me. His opinion was that I had some homosexual tendencies, that I had an overbearing mother, that I needed to have an LGBT support system and things of that sort, and he wanted me to get counseling dealing with those particular issues. 11:50 OC: Do you feel like a lot of the language you use now to identify yourself or identify others in the LGBT community, do you feel as though the psychologist did a lot of this and helped you sort through it, or were you still, you know, exploring that and figuring out what to call how you see yourself, how you regard yourself and others? 12:15 R: I actually think I learned terminology and what’s what just through dealing with other LGBT people. I think the psychologist helped maybe a little on a small scale in the very beginning. I mean deep down inside I’m dressing in girls’ clothes. I knew that I’m different, that there’s somewhere in this other spectrum over here that I fit in better, and so I think I learned more by just being around others and learning from them. 13:02 OC: And up until now how did race also affect you? Cause I mean, you are black and this is the South so I mean… was there…? 13:12 R: Well, it's affected me very personally because typically I’ve always been a transsexual who's been attracted to Caucasian men, and living in different parts of Virginia—not only have I lived in Lynchburg, but I went to a boys home up in Winchester, Virginia which is Frederick County 4 �up next to West Virginia—and I mean white men were attractive to me and it was an issue. And so even being here in Roanoke I’m somewhat reserved with that just because I know even though race relations have come a long, long way, there’s still some issues. 14:22 OC: Well, you had mentioned that after the psychologist you got into some more trouble and were sent to a boys home? 14:31 R: Right. 14:32 OC: Okay, tell us about your time there. 14:36 R: The boys home I think was a blessing because I think there was two scenarios that could have happened. If I had never gotten in trouble again I could have kept living with my mom. My mom was a devout Jehovah’s Witness. They were not agreeing to let me be gay or transsexual or anything in that spectrum of LGBT. Nothing more than straight. I think that would have been a catastrophe for me mentally, emotionally, and so the other part of it is I did get in trouble again and was eventually moved to a boys home which allowed me to step out into, and figure out what my sexuality was. Yes, I engaged in some unhealthy sex but I think the good of that situation is that I was able to find myself and be myself and not be forced to be a sexuality that my mom wanted me to be or some religion wanted me to be or somebody else. I could be myself. And so the longer I stayed at the boys home the more I felt good about myself and I felt emotionally comfortable. I felt myself getting stronger as a person. 16:38 OC: So you feel that you got more out of it than you risked by having unhealthy sex? 16:46 R: Yes, even though, like I said, even though at the time it was still a big risk because of the AIDS epidemic at the time, but still a very, very big risk. I wouldn’t recommend it [chuckling]. 17:05 OC: And the racial makeup of the boys home? How was that? 17:10 R: I would say 80/20. I would say 80% Caucasians and 20% some other ethnic group. 17:25 OC: And at this time you knew you were attracted to white men? 17:27 R: Yea. 17:28 OC: So this was…? 17:30 R: Utopia! [snickering] 5 �17:35 OC: Right, so this was Winchester, Virginia, and how long were you at the boys’ home? 17:40 R: I was there from [pause]… ‘84 to ’87, so four years. 17:55 OC: And that’s four years that you lived there but you weren’t a student there all four years, am I correct? 18:00 R: Yes, I was still a student there because I lived there but… I was still doing their program there. I don’t know how to explain that. Their school portion of the program… I was able to go to a regular public high school my junior year and my senior year but that’s just their schooling program that I was able to do public school. As far as their program for their overall program for students to help them grow mentally, physically, and to help them with other life skill-type issues, I was still at the school to learn those things. I still did things with other students at the boys home for the life skill-type of things. 19:14 OC: And did any of the program directors know what was going on with the boys? That you were exploring your sexuality and...? 19:27 R: [whispers] Ooh, that’s a good question…. I don’t… no staff member has ever said anything to me, ever said anything to me about if I was doing any type of homosexual activity but I believe I think they suspected that things were going on because other students knew that I was doing things. They knew and I think some of those students would go and tattle on me. But I never got caught, so, and the students telling and me never getting caught just made the staff members I think they still felt like there were some things going on. Even though I went to public high school I didn’t pursue women, like girlfriends. I just didn’t pursue. It was like you know I just went through like girls and never said nothing about having a girlfriend or nothing because I didn’t have one. So, I think they knew but just didn’t say. 21:03 OC: Well as far as tattling goes that brings up a question. Did you find that will all the boys or with some of the boys that there was a sort of culture of acceptance as far as race or sexuality goes? 21:20 R: Some there were, yea. Some there were. Some others, their reason for tattling and telling may have been because they hated the act between two males. They hated that. Or they hated the fact that two different races was doing something. So… or both. So, which one was which, I mean I wouldn’t be able to say, but definitely possible I definitely think that had something to do with [it]. 22:08 OC: And what about the public high school you went to? Tell us about your experience there. What was the landscape like racially or in terms of sexuality and how far was that from the boys’ home? 6 �22:24 R: My junior year in high school was in Frederick County. It was James Woods High School. Frederick County is like Northern Virginia but it's off close to West Virginia, part of Virginia and like Maryland, West Virginia, where they kind of meet up. Anyway, it’s kind of the makeup back in the ‘80s, or from the early ‘80s was that there was still racial tension, like West Virginia, and so Frederick County was, I would say it was primarily the type of county that was guys with shotguns in the back of pickup trucks and that type of thing. You know Rebel flags. You might see some tattoos on people with skinhead on it or swastikas or things like that. But that was the county part so going to school in that county was difficult. Because when I went to school I didn’t see anybody of any other different race other than Caucasian throughout my whole day and so it made me stand out, of course. And, you know, I complained my first week in school I was literally in tears cause I was like “I’m not going to make this.” It was like… and again I’m attracted to white guys. So, I’m like, “I’m not going to make it through this!” And then my senior year, the boys home I was at was able to get me transferred to the city school which was Winchester. So my senior year I went to John Hanley High School which was where I was able to get my high school diploma. So, the atmosphere—the racial [atmosphere]—there [was] much more racially diverse in that school. 25:10 OC: The less eye candy, right? 25:12 R: Yea [chuckles]. 25:16 OC: And did that make junior year particularly hard because I know you are attracted to white men and you know it was pretty conservative and a little racist…? 25:28 R: It made me have to go through an emotional rollercoaster. Because I wanted to be there. Because I wanted to see what I saw, but I didn’t want to be there. And so I could get up in the morning—I like school, like I said—I could get up in the morning excited about going to school and rush off to school but as soon as I get there and go to a couple of classes I just be like “why am I here? Why am I still putting up with this?” But I don’t want to say that the whole school was like that. It’s just some bad apples, because by far the whole school wasn’t exactly, you now, had a problem with me. It was just certain individuals. But they made it tough. 26:37 OC: Did you have any particularly bad altercations or confrontations with other students? 26:45 R: Yea, they weren’t… I don’t know…. I guess on a scale of 1 to 10 I would say they were maybe a 3. Because I would get bumped around. I’ve gotten bumped around a few times. I’ve had sometimes when I’ve had guys say things to me. There were a few times when I felt like I wasn’t going to make it home that day. You get a couple of football-sized players that are mouthing off at you that… I don’t know. 27:37 OC: Do you feel like these altercations were mostly because you were black? Or because you were trans? Or because you were exhibiting sort of like a sexuality or identity that was just other 7 �than what they felt comfortable with? What do you think? 27:53 R: I would say that I think that it was mostly because of my skin color, but however, I want to say that I don’t think that I came off 100% masculine either. So I am sure that I was a person that had some feminine ways to me that people could see, especially the guys. I had some ways that you probably could see that I didn’t realize that I was showing at the time. So, I would say mostly racial but I think some femininity was in there too. 28:47 OC: Going all the way back to when you were growing up in Lynchburg, did you feel like you had to put on sort of a super masculine façade to defend yourself or just keep you safe and secure? 29:09 R: I wouldn’t say ‘super masculine façade.’ You know like [deepens voice] ‘Hey, what’s up?’ It wasn’t like super masculine. I think, at the same time, I think I had to hide a lot of femininity. 29:30 OC: Okay, well what kind of…? 29:32 R: Like, for example, if I’m sitting here in a room, like I’ve done here today, I can sit here and I could cross my legs and do whatever with my wrists, and it’s cool. But I wouldn’t have done that back then. I would be pretty much trying to stick to at least the minimum masculine protocol that you would expect out of a guy, and it would be the minimum. Then, like going to the boy’s locker room, that’s like a totally different thing but I mean it’s the same thing. I have to look [large] type of thing and then try to act at least as best I can to be the minimum amount of masculinity that I can muster and not appear in any way feminine because it’s just gonna not be good. At least that’s my perception back then. 31:20 OC: Okay, so you finished up in Winchester City High School. 31:25 R: Right. 31:28 OC: You finished up well? Good grades? 31:29 R: Yes. 31:31 OC: You went on to college? 31:32 R: Yup, I went to Ferrum College here, down in Ferrum, Virginia, right down the road. 31:41 OC: Well, why don’t you tell us about your experiences there. Did you explore your sexuality there as well? Did you have any relationships? 8 �31:54 R: I did not explore my sexuality there. When I went it college it was ’87. This was considered Southwest Virginia. It was still almost as equal as where I came from, pretty much, as far as what people said about this area. And I’d be seeing certain same types of things: you know, rebel flags, people also with different types of tattoos on them, and things like that. This was an area that I felt like I didn’t want to be flamboyant, and the last mistake that I felt like a trans person could make is let a person know that I like them and they were like super straight. That just seemed like it would put my life in danger, because if they’re like super straight and then they go on this “that mother f-er is gay!,” when he goes and tells his friends it just magnifies this whole thing and here I am, on a campus with people who… you know, I don’t know what’s coming. You’ve got guys… I’m living in a dorm. Fortunately I had a room by myself. Now, I was still young because I went to college at 19. I graduated high school at 19 and went on to college. I was not going to try to bust anybody’s bubble and take a chance on me getting assaulted or hurt or anything like that. 34:15 OC: So needless to say, there weren’t any sort of LGBT groups on campus or in the area? 34:21 R: No way. Not back then. I’m sure there is now, though. 34:28 OC: Well, in that case, when were you fully introduced to an LGBT community or other LGBT individuals? Did that come right after college? 34:44 R: I would say that my first real interaction with the LGBT community was during a time when I was in prison and they recognized me from the beginning and approached me and had some conversations with me and tried to teach me how to be safe, tried to help me get a safe roommate, that type of thing, and how to deal with prison life. That interaction, because of all the places that I’ve been in Virginia, I never really ran into any other transsexuals. Not saying that they weren’t there, just I never ran into them or never had conversations with anybody. So unfortunately it’s sad that I went to prison and had to learn from that experience about my community. 36:20 OC: Do you have any particular instances or experiences that resonated with you from prison, good or bad? 36:33 R: I had one bad experience. I’ve been raped when I was in prison in 1994. It was three black men [long pause]… I would say I don’t think that was my determining factor to be exclusively attracted to white males. I actually think that every race has attractive men and that’s honest. But that was the only incident that was really negative that happened. I think that was mostly because I was naïve. I pretty much didn’t want to have… I was attracted to guys in prison and I didn’t want to just get with anybody, and so by me saying no, it was very offensive to some of the guys in prison, but I got through it. 38:26 OC: Did you have any sexual encounters that you remember with fondness even to this day that really helped you sort through any feelings you still had that you weren’t sure about? 9 �38:41 R: I would say yeah. Yeah, I would say I’ve had a number of interactions that were very, very, very positive. And that’s just because it wasn’t just all about the sex, it was all about talking and helping each other out and being friends with each other and helping each other get through the situation of prison. 39:21 OC: Did you have any relationships in prison? 39:27 R: Yeah, I would say one. One relationship that lasted three years and that didn’t happen until very later on in the 2000s. But that was the only one. 39:51 OC: Were they black, white? 39:53 R: They were Caucasian. 39:57 OC: When you went to college and into prison, this was the early ‘90s. You were just coming off of the AIDS epidemic. I know you said you didn’t really think about it much, but looking back at it now were there any stigma that kind of affected you in major ways? 40:19 R: Particularly in the ‘80s? 40:21 OC: In the late ‘80s coming into the ‘90s when we were coming off of the epidemic… 40:27 R: I would say that even then in the late ‘80s, it was hard in the community to… It was hard for me—even though I knew I was trans—it was hard for me to put on the persona that I was trans. It was hard for me to put on the persona that I was trans just because I didn’t have the support out there with me. The general feeling of the community was that AIDS is an LGBT issue. We started it and dog gone it, to see an LGBT person, for some people, meant violence because they had family members that died from this. It meant a lot of animosity. I wanted some support, basically. I wanted some people, if I was going to be… so that we could do the walk together and not have a trans person way up here by themselves and not say that they’re trans and get no support and end up getting hurt or something. 42:15 OC: At this time were there any celebrities or people in the media to look to that you recall? 42:29 R: I think Elton John—I guess he was out back then. I don’t remember very many. Maybe Rock Hudson. He was an actor. He had a pianist named Liberace who was very flamboyant. But in general, you couldn’t really touch them. You could be mad that they were who they were but… 43:17 OC: Celebrity is celebrity. 10 �43:18 R: Yeah, you can’t knock them out on television, or hurt them on television. 43:29 OC: Okay, so you spent post-college, up until moving here last year, mostly in prison. 43:36 R: Mostly in prison. 43:38 OC: Can you tell us a little about what you were charged with? 43:42 R: In 19… [pauses] ‘94? Maybe ‘92… I was charged with a forgery, uttering. Couple of counts of forgery, couple of charges of uttering… burglary. I went to prison for that and I was released in 1999. Then in 2000 I got credit card fraud, credit card forgery, and credit card theft and went to prison that year for that. 44:32 OC: Can you tell us what motivated that behavior, those actions? 44:37 R: All of my crimes have been motivated from the desire to make some type of transformation from male to female. I needed money and I wasn’t going to get it from my mom, and so, at the time, as distorted as my thinking was, I thought the best way to do that was to go back what I normally did—back when I was eleven years old—which was steal. So I stole checks, and I wrote them. I tried to steal people’s money through the checks. Same thing with credit cards. It all goes back to trying to steal something that doesn’t belong to me in order to help with my transformation. 45:41 OC: And during this time were you corresponding with your mother? Was she in the picture at all? Were you guys communicating? 45:49 R: We were communicating. In fact, each time as it happened, that I went to prison, I was living with my mom and that just made me—living with her just made me want to get some money even more so that I could move out. Go be myself. So, I think living with her and not having the communication, the healthy communication, is why I was going down that bad road. 46:35 OC: And a lot of the tension that you had with her was motivated by her religious beliefs, right? 46:39 R: Yes. 46:40 OC: Can you tell me what your relationship with God is as a result of that? 46:49 R: I am spiritual. And I have a lot of moments that are spiritual. I don’t think what religion I choose is really based off of my mother but just based off of a question that most people can’t 11 �answer and that is the same thing I ask my mother: how do you know that your religion is the correct one? Because most of them have had some guy that said he has heard some thing from God. The Jehovah’s Witnesses got their own Bible. The Mormons got their own books and bibles. And which one is right? Nobody can answer that. So that’s why I don’t really get into religion, but I enjoy spirituality and I enjoy being spiritual and having a spiritual experience. 48:10 OC: There weren’t a lot of celebrity trans individuals back when you were growing up, but these days things are a little more progressive. 48:24 R: Oh, yeah. 48:25 OC: Do you feel as though Bruce Jenner—now Caitlyn Jenner—has positively impacted the progression of the LGBT community, or any others? 48:41 R: I think yes and no. I think Caitlyn Jenner has been positive. Because he stood up, he was a popular person, he had beautiful daughters, and he got up and said “I’m transgender.” And he took some steps to show the world that he was transgender. The only thing I think that he has not done is to be an advocate. It’s good to hear him having done what he did. I wish that he would be an advocate for people who still feel like they cannot come out for various reasons. Whether their mom’s religion, or for kids that get kicked out of their house and have to live on the street because their moms kicked them out of the house because they’re trans or because they’re gay or something. What can you do for advocacy? And I haven’t heard Caitlyn do that. Same thing with Laverne. You know, Laverne Cox, I think she’s done some things on the advocacy level but that’s what I’d like to see. Some of the superstars who have transitioned and have been successful, to step out and say “we need more people…” Because I think they already know. They know the battle inside of their mind, their brain, and feeling like they can’t come out because they have a wife. Caitlyn Jenner, he was married, he had kids. The fear of coming out and saying “I’m really a female on the inside. I want to be a woman.” They have kids and the younger generation get out of the fear of being themselves. Not making a mistake, feeling like society demands that you marry someone of the opposite sex and have children and whatever and lie about your sexuality. You don’t have to do that now. You can be yourself. 51:28 OC: Things have absolutely become more progressive. Here, we’re now still in the South. You did grow up in the South, southern Virginia. Tell us about your move to Roanoke last year. How’s the community treated you since you’ve been here? How have you felt? How have you identified with it? 51:47 R: I did pretty good. I think a lot has to do with my age and how long I’ve identified as trans and how comfortable I am with it, and not being scared of people. Not being scared of hate. I think the more you stand up to the bully, the bully backs off because the bully finds out that unless he’s going to do something really crazy, he backs down. I think just being older and the wisdom I have gained over the years has helped a lot. The education, the things I’ve learned, and all of that has helped. 53:03 12 �OC: I know you haven’t been here all that long, but have you had any meaningful relationships? Romantic ones? 53:11 R: No, not yet. I haven’t really been looking. I just figure if one comes my way, one will come. But I’m not really looking. 53:33 OC: So would you say that you’ve made the best out of Roanoke and you’d consider this a proper home now? 53:42 R: I won’t say that I won’t move somewhere else in the future. Not the near future but in the future. I would say that I’m comfortable with Roanoke at this time and out of all the places that I’ve lived in Virginia, I’m feeling most comfortable in Roanoke. I think it has a lot to do with how much the community has learned about LGBT people and have accepted. Acceptance has been a big part of it—society as a whole, I’m saying. 54:33 OC: Well, on that, how’s the [Roanoke] Diversity Center? How is your relationship with the Diversity Center and how has that impacted your time here? 54:40 R: I visit the Diversity Center quite often. I use people here to come and vent and talk about things that are issues with me. I try to do the same thing. I try to be an ear for somebody else, a young person who may be struggling with something that I’m familiar with, that I’ve gone through myself. So I’m able to both help and get some help. I think sometimes support is about just being there, being available, and sometimes people have something they want to talk about. Sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they just need to be around somebody else that’s like them just so they can be sure that they know that they know that they know that they know that they are who they are, and sometimes all it takes is just being in the same room. That’s what the Diversity Center does. 55:59 OC: Okay, thank you. We have learned a lot and we’re glad to have spent this time with you. That concludes our oral history with [Rissa]. Thank you. [END] 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Rissa Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Rissa Interviewer: Omari Chancellor, Emily Brun Interviewee: Rissa Date: 18 February 2017 Location: Roanoke Diversity Center Total Duration: 56:22 Transciption prepared by: Ta’Tyana Buster, Jac Frost Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 February 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rissa, Omari Chancellor, Emily Brun, Ta’Tyana Buster, Jac Frost Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rissa https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3466/KellyNancy_[compressed].mp3 cb9e3f0380ee5026ae9dc24585f9eeb3 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3466/Kelly_Nancy.pdf 85fe42e3e7d1a72707a969ef74ca5dab PDF Text Text   Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative   Interview  with  Nancy  Kelly   January  17,  2017     Interviewer:  Julia  Greider   Interviewee:  Nancy  Kelly   Date:  January  17,  2017   Location:  Fintel  Library,  Roanoke  College,  Salem,  Virginia     Transcribed  by:  Malinda  Britt  and  Erin  Hannon     Duration:  1:38:45     0:00  =  childhood  in  Maryland  suburbs  outside  of  Washington,  D.C.  (1958  –  1960s);  high  school   experiences  (1970s)   3:31  =  learning  about  homosexuality,  transsexuals,  and  trying  to  sort  out  her  own  identity   (1970s)   7:54  =  attending  Virginia  Tech  (late  1970s);  falling  in  love  with  a  woman;  learning  about  the   Women’s  Collective,  a  lesbian  feminist  organization  at  Virginia  Tech;  learning  about  the  Gay   Student  Alliance     14:30  =  activities  of  the  Women’s  Collective;  making  lesbian  friends;  homophobia  and  violence   directed  against  gay  and  lesbian  students  at  Virginia  Tech   22:49  =  activities  of  the  Gay  Student  Alliance  (late  1970s);  on  the  nature  of  homophobia  and   homophobic  violence;  Gay  Awareness  Week  /  Denim  Day  (1979)   30:50  =  Gay  Student  Alliance,  relationship  with  the  Administration     35:19  =  Lesbian  feminism;  the  1980  Presidential  Election;  the  gay  scene  in  Roanoke  (late  1970s)   39:52  =  Coming  out  to  family  members   43:10  =  Moving  to  Roanoke  (1981);  getting  involved  in  First  Friday  (a  lesbian  organization);  the   origins  of  First  Friday   47:32  =  the  AIDS  crisis;  watching  friends  die;  discussing  the  terminology  “LGBT”  and  “Q”   52:59  =  the  early  years  of  First  Friday;  organizing  the  Roanoke  Valley  Women’s  Retreats  (early   1980s)   59:00  =  Demographics  of  First  Friday  and  the  Women’s  Retreats;  spreading  the  word;  Skip  Two   Periods  (First  Friday’s  newsletter,  1983-­‐1988)       1   �1:03:31  =  running  the  retreats     1:07:06  =  romantic  and  sexual  relationships  within  First  Friday   1:10:41  =  Skip  Two  Periods:  how  it  was  put  together   1:14:50  =  the  role  of  lesbian  “herstory”  for  First  Friday   1:18:26  =  conflicts  within  First  Friday   1:23:20  =  role  of  music  and  workshops  at  the  retreats;  treatment  of  lesbians  in  film/cinema   1:27:27  =  leaving  Roanoke  (1986),  moving  to  Durham,  North  Carolina;  becoming  a  parent;   issues  facing  lesbian  parents     1:36:18  =  the  present  state  of  LGBT  issues;  responding  to  the  2016  Presidential  Election       0:00   JG:  Alright,  so  this  is  Julia  Greider  and  I  am  interviewing  Nancy  Kelly  on  January  17th  in  the   Roanoke  College  library  for  the  [Southwest  Virginia]  LGBTQ+  History  Project  Oral  History   Initiative.  So  thank  you  for  being  here,  first  of  all.   0:19   NK:  You’re  welcome.  Happy  to  be  here.   0:20   JG:  So  to  start  off,  just  tell  me  about  when  you  were  born,  where  you  were  born.  A  little  bit   about  your  childhood.   0:26   NK:  I  was  born  in  Denver,  Colorado  in  1958.  Spent  a  few  years  there,  but  really  grew  up  in   Maryland  outside  of  Washington  D.C.,  and  was  very  suburban  and  grew  up  in  a  very  affluent   area.  And  when  I  wanted  to  go  to  college,  my  brother  and  sister  had  gone  to  Virginia  Tech.  And   I  wanted  to  go  to  Virginia  Tech,  partially  because  that’s  just  kind  of  what  we  did.  But  also  I   appreciated  that  it  was  a  much  more  rural  setting  and  that  you  could  be  just  a  little  more   connected  to  the  earth,  where  just,  not  everything  about  being  in  a  metropolitan,  suburban   area.  So  I  came  to  Virginia  Tech.   1:16   JG:  Okay,  so  tell  me  a  little  bit  more  about  your  childhood.  So  like  how  did  you  get  along  with   your  family,  how  did  you  like  school?  Stuff  like  that.     2   �1:23   NK:  I  was  the  youngest  of  five  kids.  I  have  two  older  brothers,  two  older  sisters,  and  I  would  say   I’ve  always  been  very  social  and  extroverted.  And  in  thinking  back  about  my  childhood,  one  of   the  things  that  I  grew  up  feeling  was  because  my  brothers  and  sisters  were  older,  I  felt  very   disconnected  from  my  family.  I  felt  like  I  was  an  only  child  in  a  large  group  of  people,  and  some   of  that  just  had  to  be  with  our  situation  and  both  of  my  parents  worked  and,  you  know,  I  had  a   fine  childhood,  you  know,  not  always  great—none  are  perfect—but  I  would  say  overall.  I  did   well  in  school.  I  was,  honestly,  since  the  third  grade,  was  my  first  event  that  I  organized.  And  it   was  my  teacher,  Mrs.  David  Russo,  which  that’s  what  she  referred  to  herself  [as],  and  I  thought   it  was  really  odd  that  this  woman  was  named  David.  I  didn’t  understand  it  was  her  husband’s   name.  But  anyway,  she  became  pregnant,  and  we  threw  a  going  away  party  for  her  when  I  was   in  third  grade.  And  that  is  significant  because  basically  the  rest  of  my—I  would  say  my  junior   high  and  high  school  life—I  was  very  involved.  I  was  always  planning  events.  I  was  always  very   socially  active,  let’s  say  in  the  pep  club  or  the  clubs  that  were  available.  And  then  in  high  school   I  was  class  president  for  both  junior  and  senior  year  and,  you  know,  I  was  just  a  very,  very  active   person.  My  class,  I  would  say,  that  I  graduated  from  high  school,  it  was  800  people,  so  there   were  a  lot  of  people.     3:24   JG:  So  it  sounds  like  you  felt  like  you  fit  in  pretty  well  in  school,  with  friends  and  everything.   3:31   NK:  I  fit  in  well  because  I  was  extroverted.  In  understanding  that  I  was  a  lesbian,  I  did  not—I   knew  there  was  something  different.  Or  that  something  wasn’t  exactly  matching  up.  But  I  also   was  just  not  connected  enough  with  myself,  nor  were  there  any  lesbian  role  models.  I   remember  learning  what  a  “homo”  was,  which  I  thought  she  was  saying  “hobo.”  I  was  on  top  of   the  jungle  gym  of  Georgetown  Hill  Elementary  School  and  [a  classmate]  talked  to  me  about  a   “homo”  but  I  thought  she  was  saying  “hobo.”  Anyway,  what  I  learned  was  that  a  “homo”  was  a   man  who  wanted  to,  like,  have  sex  and  be  with  a  man,  and  in  my  questioning  about  myself  I  felt   a  great  sense  of  relief  because  I  knew  I  wasn’t  a  man,  and  I  knew  I  didn’t  want  to  have  sex  with   a  man,  so  therefore  I  wasn’t  that  [laughter].  So  that  –  you  know,  you  can  understand  the  bad   part  of  that  logic.   So  I  learned,  I  presumed,  that  I  was  heterosexual  just  because  I  just  came  to  act  that  way   socially.  But  in  my  personal  world,  I  had  so  many  crushes  on  girls.  It  was,  I  mean,  it  should  have   been  obvious  to  me,  but  it  wasn’t.  And  so  I  grew  up  sort  of…  I  didn’t  really  know  what  it  was  like   to  be  sexual  because  you  know,  thank  goodness,  I  wasn’t  sexual  when  I  was  young.  So  I  don’t   know.  But  my  attraction  has  always  been  for  women,  always.  And  so  in  high  school  I  had   boyfriends  and  did  become  sexually  active  relatively  young.  And  I  thought  that’s  kind  of  what  it   was  about,  but  my  emotional  and  real  deep  attraction  has  always  been  to  women.       3   �And  so  I  didn’t  quite  understand.  And,  you  know,  growing  up  in  the  [19]60s  and  ‘70s,  lesbians— there  was  no  real—you  know,  I  thought  a  lesbian  honestly  was  either  a  bull  dyke,  like  a  woman   that  looks  so  much  like  a  man  you  couldn’t  tell  the  difference,  or  sort  of  the  penthouse  foreign   version  of  just  a  woman  that  would  have  sex  with  anyone  and  anything  including  German   shepherds.  So  that  was  sort  of  the  world  in  which  I  came  up.  And  so  I  didn’t  realize  that  a  well-­‐ adjusted,  healthy  relationship  with  a  woman  was  even  a  possibility.  I  didn’t  think  about  it.  And  I   even  went  through  a  real  period  of  wondering,  like,  was  I  transsexual?  I  remember  there  was   this  TV  show  called  the  David  Susskind  Show,  and  it  was  always  like  the  transvestites,  you  know,   the  really  edgy  thing,  and  it  was  on  really  late.  So  I  was  like  babysitting  and  I  would  watch  it,   and  I  remember  there  were  transsexuals  on  the  show,  and  I  wondered,  “Is  that  it?”  But  then  I   watched  the  show  and  I  was  like,  “Nah,  no,  that’s  not  it.”  But  I  didn’t  know  what  I  was.  But  that   didn’t  stop  me  from  being  social.  I  just  kept  everything  inward.  And  just  very  protected,  or  not   even  protected  like  I  was  hiding  it,  I  just,  my  life  wasn’t  integrated  with  myself  and  I  don’t  know   how  else  to  describe  it.  It’s  just  like,  I  felt  all  these  ways  and  I  just  lived  this  way  and  there  was  a   big  disconnection.   7:47   JG:  So  when  did  you  start  getting  other  views  of  lesbians?  Or  like,  realizing  that  maybe  that  was   what  you  were?   7:54   NK:  Well  it  was,  I  went  to  Virginia  Tech,  and  for  the  first  year,  my  freshman  year,  I  had   boyfriends.  And  as  I  went  through  the  year,  there  was  a  woman  who  also  lived  in  my  dorm.  I   was  a  geology  major  and  she  was  also  a  geology  major,  and  we  became  very  close  friends.  And  I   know  that  she  had  a  friend  that  she  told  me  was  a  lesbian.  And  I  was  just  shocked,  like,  “You   actually  know  a  lesbian?”  But  as  things  unfolded,  I  began  to  have  a  major  crush  on  her.  And  I   was  in  room  347  and  she  was  in  room  247  in  the  dorm,  and  so  we  were  literally  right  at  the   staircase.  And  so  I  had  a  big  crush  on  her  and  then  over  the  summer,  I  spent  a  lot  of  time  with   her.  I  also  broke  up  with  my  boyfriend.  And  then  when  we  came  back  to  school  as  sophomore   year  at  Virginia  Tech,  the  very  first  weekend  of  school,  I  can’t  remember,  but  anyway  basically  it   was  September  29,  1977—precisely  on  that  day—that  my  life  made  sense  to  me.  Because  we   went  camping  in  the  pouring  rain  because  we  really  wanted  to  go  camping.  And  we  had  an   intimate  experience,  should  we  say,  to  the  background  music  of  Debby  Boone’s  “You  Light  Up   My  Life.”  [laughs]   And  I  can  remember  waking  up  in  the  morning  after  this  very  intimate  experience  and  my   worlds  starting  to  collide.  She  then  told  me  that  she  admitted  that  she  was  a  lesbian.  And  I  had   to  say,  I  was  so  disconnected  from  my  life  I  was  sort  of  horrified!  “Oh  my  gosh,  I  just  slept  with   a  lesbian!”  Like  “Ohhhhhh!  That’s  what  it  is!”  So  then  I  understood  in  that  moment  that  my  life   made  sense.  Now  that  doesn’t  mean  it  was  easy  to  comprehend.  Because  in  the  moment,  and     4   �being  out  in  the  New  River  and  out  camping,  that  was  very  fun.  Driving  back  to  Blacksburg  is   when  it  hit  me,  the  impact  of  what  my  newfound  identity  was  going  to  mean.     And  this  woman  also  was  very  closeted,  at  least  she  thought  she  was.  And  she  began  to  give  me   cues  and  tell  me,  “Oh  well,  we  can’t  have  dinner  together,  we  have  to  do  this.  We  can  never   have  the  door  locked  when  our  roommates  come.”  Bum  ba  bum  bum.  So  by  then  I  was  in  room   310  at  West  Eggleston  and  she  was  on  the  second  floor  so  we  were  still  in  the  same  dorm,  but   she  very  clearly  gave  me  very  specific  do’s  and  don’ts.  And  I  have  to  say  that  for  about  a  month   it  was  awful.  It  was  like,  holy…  you  know?  Because  I  was  also  realizing  my  identity  as  a  lesbian.   Although,  I  don’t  even  know  I  used  that  word.  I  don’t  know  what  word  I  used.  I  don’t  think  I   used  “gay.”  You  know,  I  was  just  like,  ahh!  So  I  didn’t  have  language  for  what  was  happening.   But  a  month  later,  literally  on  October  29th,  1977,  I  met  her  other  friend  from  high  school.  And   this  friend  was  just  much  more  normal  about  things.  She  was  just  much  more  of  a  reasonable…   like,  “yeah,  whatever,”  but  we  still  had  to  be  very  closeted  in  the  dorms.  We  had  to  be  very   careful.  Repercussions  were,  first  of  all,  just  being  socially  ostracized,  but  also  there  was  a  lot  of   physical  danger.  There’s  a  lot  of  physical  danger  with  being  gay  in  this  part  of  the  world  and  in   that  time.  So  I  started  hanging  out  with  my  new  friend,  and  we  became  girlfriends,  and  so  then   it  became  a  lot  more  fun.  And  so  over  Thanksgiving  break,  which  I  don’t  know  the  exact  date  of   that,  she  took  me  to  a  bar  in  D.C.  We  both  lived  outside  of  D.C.  So  she  said  let’s  go  to  the…  and  I   can’t  even  remember  which  one  it  is,  the…  I  don’t  know,  the  bar.  And  there  she  met  an  old   friend  from  high  school  who  said,  “You  have  to  come  to  the  Women’s  Collective  meeting.”  So   whatever  that  was,  that  was  the  hand  signal  that  you  need—there’s  more  girls  in  Blacksburg   other  than  this  weird  situation  that  I  was  in.  And  so  on  December  2nd,  1977,  I  went  to  the  first   Women’s  Collective  meeting  which  took  place  in  the  Student  Center,  which  I  can’t  remember   the  name  of.     13:23   JG:  Squires?   13:24   NK:  Squires  Student  Center.  And  there  I  met  this  enclave  of  lesbian  feminists  and  I  was  like,  “I   am  home.  [laughs]  I  am  home.”  So  it  was  euphoric.  I  was  euphoric.  And  so  then  I  learned  how   to  be  a  lesbian  feminist  in  Blacksburg,  which  still  had  lots  of  rules  to  it.  But  it  wasn’t  like   screwed  up,  you  know,  closet-­‐y,  hiding  everything.  But  in  no  way,  I  was  not  “out,”  and  I  was  not   interested  in  being  “out.”  I  wanted  to  be  out.  I  wanted  to  meet  more  women,  but  I  was  not   interested  in  making  any  kind  of  political  statement.  And  I  just  want  to  backtrack,  but  the  end   of  my  freshman  year,  the  Gay  Student  Alliance  came  and  talked  to  our  sociology  class  in   McBryde  100.  And  I  was  one  of  the  few  people  in  the  back  of  the  room  that  sat  and  laughed   and  heckled  at  them.     14:29     5   �JG:  Wow.   14:30   NK:  K?  Because  first  of  all,  they  were  guys.  You  know,  like  it  was  ridiculous.  There  were  no   women.  And  I  was  just  being  my  stupid  self.  So,  I  just  want  to  say  that  was  my  like,  “Gay  people,   oh  my  God,  that’s  crazy,  uhh  weird!”  So  in  meeting  the  Women’s  Collective,  we  started  doing   these  events.  And  we  had  a  week,  it  was  Women’s  Week,  I  don’t  know,  it  was  beginning  of   December  1977.  And  there  was  a  poster  and  we  screen-­‐printed  it,  like,  you  know,  not  on   mimeo[graph],  but  something.  And  it  was  a  talk,  and  there  was  some  bar  that  we  used  to  go  to   in  Blacksburg.  I  would  have  to—I  don’t  remember  the  name  of  it,  and  it  wasn’t  in  anyway  a  gay   bar,  but  it’s  just  where  we  congregated.  And  so  we  had  this  Women’s  Week,  and  it  was  really   fun  and  I  was  with  all  of  these  amazing  women.  And  so  there  were  four  women  in  particular,   and  if  I’m  not  using  names  it’s  hard  to  describe  them,  but  there  were  four  really  cool  women.   And  they  lived  out  in  a  house,  in  this  big  old  house  out  in  Fagg,  Virginia.  F-­‐A-­‐G-­‐G,  Virginia.  Which   is  right  outside  of  Blacksburg.     15:56   JG:  Really?   15:57   NK:  And  I  don’t  know  if  it  still  exists,  it  was  a  church,  you  could  see  it:  Fagg,  Virginia.  And  that   was  their  address:  Fagg,  Virginia.  And  they  had  this  big  old  house  and  I  don’t  know,  so  we  had   our  Women’s  Week  and  it  was  just  amazing.  I  really  felt  like  I  found  my  place.  I  found  the   identity  of  being  a  lesbian,  who  I  was.  But  so  these  women,  four  of  whom  were  a  bit  older  than   I  was,  and  just  had  been  out  more  and  were  much  more  of  lesbian  feminists.  And  they,  actually,   several  of  them  were  in  my  dorm.  So  here’s  what’s  happening  in  the  dorms.  I’m  in  Eggleston   Dorm,  and  I’m  all  of  a  sudden  having  all  these  slightly  non-­‐conforming  women  come  to  my   dorm  room,  and  there’s  questions  on  the  hall,  and  they  don’t  shave  their  legs,  and  what  is  this?   And  so  I  became  sort  of  suspect,  I  think,  where  people  started  to  wonder  what  was  going  on,   because  they  had  known  me  as  “Crazy  Nancy”  on  the  hall  because  there  were  like  four  Nancies   on  the  hall.  So  I  was  “Crazy  Nancy”  and  I  had  boyfriends,  and  all  of  a  sudden  that  wasn’t   happening  anymore.     So  there  was  one  night,  Friday  the  13th,  January  1978,  where  two  of  the  friends—two  of  the   women  who  lived  in  this  big  house—came,  and  they  were  trying  to  call  their  roommates  or  we   were  going  to  go  out  or  something.  Anyway,  they  couldn’t  get  home.  And  what  had  happened   was  that  their  house  had  burned  to  the  ground  with  all  of  their  pets,  like  six  animals,  all  of  their   belongings,  burned  to  the  ground.  And  so  it  was  awful,  and  it  was  traumatic.  We  didn’t  know  if   somebody  lit  the  house  on  fire,  if  it  was  just  bad  wiring.  Everything  was  up  in  the  air.  But  the   thing  is  they  lost  everything.  And  so  we  all  congregated  in  my  dorm  room,  and  then  it  was  like  a   wake  where  like  every  lesbian  from  a  number  of  mile  radius  came  to  my  dorm  room.  So  that     6   �pretty  much  started  confirming  any  issues  of  who  I  was,  but  what  was  really  nice  is  that  then   we  started  having  this  big  collection  of  clothes,  because  literally  the  women  only  had  what  they   had  on  their  backs  and  in  their  car.  And  most  of  them  had  moved  out  of  their  family’s  home  and   so  it  was  a  huge  loss,  needless  to  say,  and  all  the  pets,  like  six—maybe  four  dogs  and  two  cats.   It  was  awful.  So  after  that  I  think  we  went  somewhere  else,  and  there  was  a  professor  here  who   was  from  Paris  and  she  had  a  girlfriend  from  Denmark…   18:56   JG:  Oooh!     18:56   NK:  And  they  were  amazing  and  very,  very  “out”  lesbians!  And  so  I  think  we  went  over  to  their   apartment  or  something,  maybe  a  group  of  twenty  or  thirty  lesbians  who  just  all  wanted  to  be   together,  to,  you  know,  hold  these  people  dearly,  and  slept  and  kind  of  helped  figure  out  the   recovery.  So,  the  impact  of  that  was,  one  is  I  got  a  very  clear  sense  of  community  within   Blacksburg  in  the  Women’s  Collective.     And  then  the  second  is  that  I  was  totally  outed  in  my  dorm.  And  so  the  repercussion  of  being  in   my  dorm  was  hard  because  I  lived  right  across  from  the  bathrooms  and  it  was  a  gang,  a  big   bathroom.  And  so  I  would  find  when  I  would  go  into  a  shower,  everyone  would  leave.  You   know,  not  to  the  toilet,  but  to  the  shower—people  would  leave.  I  found  that  there  were  prayer   meetings,  holding  prayer  meetings  for  me  up  and  down  the  hall,  praying  for  me.  So  I  did  not   embrace  that  kind  of  support.  And  then  things  started  getting  violent.  You  know,  we  had  doors   with  all  this  shit  on  it  and  paper  stuff,  and  mine  would  be  burned.  It  was  very  uncomfortable   living  in  a  dorm  after  that  happened.  So,  I  think  I  was  supposed  to  live  in  a  dorm  the  next  year,   and  then  I  just  lied  to  my  parents  and  said  I  didn’t  get  housing  because  no  freaking  way  I  was   gonna  do  that.  And  I  had  not  come  out  to  my  parents.   So  as  this  group  coalesced,  the  Women’s  Collective,  so  did  the  Gay  Student  Alliance.  And  so   there  were  several  of  us  that  were  also  becoming  very  friendly  with  the  gay  men.  So  there  were   two  of  us  that  then  became  co-­‐presidents  of  the  Gay  Student  Alliance.  And  then  by  the  next   spring  we  were  up  in  front  of  the  class,  myself  included,  in  that  same  sociology  class  in  McBryde   100  where  I  had  heckled  the  year  before,  being  the  out  lesbian.  And  the  reaction  from  gay  men   to  lesbians  is  very  different,  and  basically  the  questions  were  like,  “How  do  you  know  you’re  a   lesbian?  Is  it  just  because  you  haven’t  had  good  sex  with  men?”  And  you  know  like,  “How  do   you…”  You  know,  just  like  all  of  the  stupid  questions  that  people  often  choose  not  to  ask  now,   they  were  asking.  So  it  was  also  being  very  public,  and  then  the  danger  rose.  I’ve  had  bricks   thrown  at  me  out  of  cars  and  um….[becoming  tearful]…  This  is  surprising.  I  was  outside  of  a  gay   bar  and  four  men  tried  to  pull  me  in  it,  and  knew  I  was  a  lesbian,  and  I  don’t  think  about  this   much,  which  is  why  I’m  upset  about  it,  but  it  just  was  terrifying.  The  physical…  the  fear  involved   in  being  gay  and  lesbian.  And  honestly  it  was  way  worse  for  the  guys,  way  worse.  They  were   constantly  targeted,  and  constantly  beaten  up.  And  there  was  just  such  fear.     7   �22:48   JG:  And  this  was  all  on  campus?   22:49   NK:  Absolutely.  All  on  campus.  So  I  don’t  remember  the  exact  years,  but  I  think  it  was  the  next   year  in  January…  if  I’m  doing  my  math  right,  ‘79  we  decided  to  have  Gay  Awareness  Week.  Fuck   you  all!  So,  and  I  have  to  say  it  was  so  courageous,  for  the  guys  in  particular.  It  was  courageous   for  the  lesbians,  for  the  women,  but  we  were  much  less  visible.  Gay  men  that  presented   themselves  in  somewhat  gay  form  were  targets.  It  was  palpable.  It  was  real.   22:37   JG:  So  there  was  less  violence  against  lesbians  just  because  they  didn’t  know  you  were  gay?   22:41   NK:  They  didn’t  know  we  were  gay,  but  also  it’s  a  different…  see,  I  think  the  whole  issue  of   homophobia  has  to  do  with  our  relations  between  men  and  women.  And  so  lesbians  are   threatening,  and  I’m  going  to  say  presumably  mostly  to  straight  men.  That’s  where  the  violence   would  come  from.  It’s  not  that  heterosexual  women  didn’t  hate  us  but  it  wasn’t  as…  like  if  I   have  the  choice  of  being  beaten  up  or  being  prayed  about,  like  I’ll  take  being  prayed  about.  So   the  violence  that  came  to  me  in  the  dorm  was  from  boyfriends  of  [women],  it  was  my  across-­‐ the-­‐hall’s  boyfriend  that  lit  my  door  on  fire.  You  know,  it’s  guys’  anger.  And  so  the  anger  for  me   was  more…  when  men  are  not  the  center  of  a  woman’s  attention  they  find  it  very  threatening,   and  so,  or,  “You  just  haven’t  gotten  it.  You  haven’t  had  a  good  fuck,  and  by  the  way  I’m  it,”  you   know,  that  kind  of  thing.  As  opposed  to  men,  gay  men  are  so  targeted  because  they’re  less  than   men.  They’re  like  women!  And  that’s  what  we  do.  You  know,  we’re  angry.  And,  you  know,  I   don’t  think  it’s  good  to  have  sexual  advances  towards  anyone  that’s  unwanted,  so  I’m  not   condoning  that.  But  the  reality  is,  if  every  straight  man  that  made  a  sexual  advance  [on]  a   woman,  and  then  the  woman  turned  around  and  beat  the  shit  out  of  them,  there  would  be   many  men  that  would  be  having  the  shit  beat  out  of  them.  So  it’s  such  a  double  standard.  So  if   a  gay  man  makes  some  sort  of  inappropriate  advance  or  suggestion,  it’s  very  different.  You   know,  then  you  beat  the  shit  out  of  them  because  that’s  what  you  do!     So  we  decided  to  have  Gay  Awareness  Week.  And  it  was  a  very  simple  message,  it  wasn’t  hard,   it  was  “Support  gay  rights,  wear  jeans.”  And  we  took  photos.  So,  my  former  girlfriend  and  I  are   one  of  the—  there  were  two  women  in  front  of  Burruss  Hall  or  whatever,  on  the  Drillfield1,  my   girlfriend  and  myself  and  two  guys.  We  did  this  other  little  flyer  that  in  my  dorm  room  we  had   another  friend  just  put  their  hand  coming  out  of  the  closet,  and  I  don’t  know  if  you  guys  had   that  one  or  not,  but  it  was  really  good.  It  was  like,  so  it  was  just  a  half  sheet  and  so  the  entire                                                                                                                           1    Locations  on  Virginia  Tech  campus.   8   �campus,  we  flyered  every  door  in  the  night.  Every  door  was  like—the  night  before.  Like  today  is   Support  Gay  Rights,  Wear  Jeans,  and  we  went  around  to  every  single  dorm.   Now  the  women’s  dorm  we  got  yelled  at,  but  then  the  guys  were  chased.  You  know,  the  guys— it  was  much  more  of  a  violent  situation.  So,  but  it  was  like,  “Screw  y’all,  we’re  doing  this!”  So   the  next  day,  and  I  knowthat    there  were  newspaper  reports  but  I  haven’t  seen  them  in  what,   thirty,  forty  years—however  long  this  has  been—but  there  was  not  a  denim  on  campus  other   than  like  me,  I  had  my  overalls  with  my  “Better  Blatant  Than  Latent”  button  [laughs].  But  it  was   a  statement!  People  were  dressed  up!  And  then  I  think  there  were  a  bunch  of  guys  that  wore   denim—they  were  pretending,  they  were  mocking  gay  men  and  wearing  denim  skirts  or   something  to  pose  for  pictures.  I  know  there  was  definitely  a  little  backlash.  But  literally.  And  it   was  an  eerie  day.  Everyone  knew  it.  It’s  not  like  anybody  forgot  that  it  was  denim  day.   And  there  were  only  very  few  of  us,  like  twelve  [laughs].  You  know,  very  small  group  of  people   wearing  jeans.  The  aftermath  of  that  was,  first  of  all  it  was  really  clear  we’re  like,  “Holy  shit,   we’re  in  trouble”  [laughs].  But  it  also  gave  us  strength,  you  know,  in  being  together.  And  that’s   about  the  community  part.  It’s  like  when  you  realize  when  you’re  like  in  the  trench  hole  with   somebody.  Like  I  didn’t  like  what  a  lot  of  gay  guys  were  doing.  I  was  like,  “Oh  dear  God,  you   guys,  please!”  You  know,  whatever.  But  it  didn’t  matter,  because  we  became  really  good   friends.  So  I  know  I  was  called  into  the  Virginia  Tech…  Dean  Dean  was  his  name.  He  was  the   Dean  of  Students.  He  was  called  in  and  he  called  in  another  guy,  cause  I  was  listed  as  a  co-­‐ president.  So  this  other  guy  and  I  were  co-­‐presidents,  and  we  were  told  that  this  was  never   happening  again.  I  mean  we  got  news  coverage.  I  mean  it  was  a  big  deal,  and  Virginia  Tech   administration  was  not  interested.  They  were  embarrassed  and  upset,  and  the  governor  had   called,  and  it  was  like  a  big  deal.   29:14   JG:  What  was  their  justification  for  telling  you  you  couldn’t  do  it?   29:19   NK:  It  would  be  like,  it  was  causing  conflict.  It  was  troublemaking,  and  we  just  said,  “Wear   jeans.”  We  didn’t  say,  “Don’t  wear  jeans,  if  you  don’t  [support  gay  rights].”  We  just  said,  “Wear   jeans.”  That  was  as  strong  as  our  statement.   29:34   JG:  Yeah.  And  why  did  you  choose  jeans?  Because  that’s  something  that  everyone  wears.   29:39   NK:  Cause  that’s  what  everybody  wore.   29:40     9   �JG:  Okay.     29:41   NK:  So  we  just  thought  we’d  give  them  an  opportunity  to  be  supportive.  But  we  also  knew  that   they  wouldn’t.  And  I  can’t  remember  if  it’s  just  something  we  copied  from  somewhere  else.  But   I  remember  we  came  up  with  it  as  a  thing,  it  was  like  “Support  Gay  Rights,  Wear  Jeans,”  and  it   was  like,  well  that  would  be  something,  wouldn’t  it?  And  it’s  so  simple.  And  it’s  so…  you  know,   it  gave  people  an  opportunity,  but  honestly  we  had  no  illusion  that  there  would  be  anyone   wearing  jeans.  It  wasn’t,  we  weren’t  looking  for—the  concept  of  an  “ally”  was  just  not…  There   were  no  allies.  And  if  you  talked  about  being  gay  then  you  just  were,  whether  you  were  saying   it  or  not.  It’s  not  like  people  say,  “You’re  supportive.”  And  I  think  what  is  so  different  these  days   is  that  I’m  not  used  to  having  other  people  with—like  it  used  to  be  like  if  you  didn’t  have  skin  in   the  game,  you  weren’t  supportive.  And  now,  people  are!  And  that’s  like,  wow!  That  is  huge!  It   seems  like  nothing,  but  it’s  huge!     30:50   JG:  So  when  that  backlash  happened  you  said  that  it  sort  of  brought  you  together  as  a   community  more?     30:56   NK:  Yep.   30:57   JG:  Do  you  think  that  was  the  dominant  reaction  or  was  there  a  lot  of  distressing  time  about  the   fact  that  everybody  had  shown  that  they  were  against  you  basically?   31:07   NK:  Well,  we  already  knew  that.   31:10   JG:  Okay  [laughter].   31:11   NK:  That  was,  “Duh!”  There  was  no,  it  wasn’t  like,  “Oh,  I  wonder  if  they…”  No.  It’s  just  what  it   was,  but  honestly,  and  it  seems  like  a  small  thing,  but  it  was  huge.  Cause  it’s  like  taking  a  stand   when  you  already  know  the  outcome,  but  you’re  going  to  do  it  anyway.  You  know?  Nothing  will   ever  change  if  people  just  don’t  keep  chipping  away.  The  thought  of  gay  marriage  was  like,  “Oh,   you’re  smoking  crack!  That  is  never  going  to  happen!”  But  [the  point  was]  just  to  say  we’re   here.  And  honestly  because  the  hard  part  in  the  gay  community  was  that—and  I  remember   sitting  in  front  of  the  War  Gym,  is  that  the  name?       10   �31:58   JG:  War  Memorial…   32:00   NK:  War  Memorial  Gym,  next  to  Eggleston  Dorm,  thinking,  I  am  the  only  person  like  me.   32:10   JG:  Do  you  mean  before  you…   32:11   NK:  Yeah,  before  I  came  out.  You  know,  before,  in  my  little  dark  period  of  coming  out.  But  I’m   just  saying  it  was  like,  I  just  felt  so  isolated.  And  so  once  we  decided  to  be  who  we  were,  then   there’s  that  compassion  to  all  these  other  people  that  are  in  pain  or  afraid  or  whatever.  It’s  like,   yes,  there’s  still  fear  but  [laughs]  you  know,  we’d  come  at  least  and  then  we’d  have  fun!  See,   that’s  the  other  thing,  we  had  crazy  fun!  It  was  really  fun!  Because  it  was  so  secretive,  or  so   guarded,  or  so  private,  or  something.  You  know,  once  we  could  create  a  safe  space,  then  people   became  who  they  were.  And  that  was  a  blast!  It  was  really  fun.   And  so  I  know  the  next  year  we  applied  for  funding  for  the  Gay  Student  Alliance,  and  we  went   through  this  meeting,  and  we  were  grilled  and  it  was  awful.  And  we  didn’t  ever  hear  what   happened.  And  this  could  be  just  like  total  being  college  stupid,  like,  “Uhhhh,  I  dunno!”  But   apparently  we  were  funded  but  we  never  knew.  So  they  gave  us  a  really  hard  time  about  it,  like,   “Why  would  you  do  this?”  and  “Are  you  recruiting?”  That  was  it.  “Are  you  out  recruiting  gay   people?”  Because  that’s  what  we  do.  We  smear  cooties  on  people  and  then  they’re  senseless   and  they  can’t  think  for  themselves.  So  a  lot  of  it  was  recruiting  and  kids  and  all  of  those  taboos   that  used  to  be  really  taboos,  but  that’s  really  what  people  thought.  So  we  were  funded,  but  we   didn’t  know!  And  then  we  graduate  or  something.  I  don’t  know  what  happened,  but  there  was   no  support.   And  I  swore  then  I  will  never  give  a  dime  to  Virginia  Tech!  And  you  know  what,  they  call  me  and   I  say,  “NO!!”  [laughs]  “You  blew  it!!”  Okay  maybe  I’ll  stop  being  bitter  and  I’ll  get  over  that.  But   I’m  just  saying,  it  was  like,  “That’s  it!”  You  know,  I  just  felt  so  slapped  in  the  face  by  Virginia   Tech.  And  I’m  so  glad  that  it’s  obviously  happening  now,  but  I’m  just  saying  it  was  like,  “Uh-­‐uh.   There’s  no  way  I’ll  have  anything  to  do  with  the  administration.”  But  it  was  like  being  called  to   the  principal’s  office.  Go  into  Burruss  Hall,  and  the  Dean  of  Dean,  and  you’ve  done  this  big   horrible  thing,  and  we’re  going,  “We  just  said  wear  jeans!  That’s  all  we  said!”  But  it’s  because   everybody’s  reaction  was  so  vehement—they  were  upset,  like,  “We  don’t  have  that  here.”  Also   just  know  that  one  of  the  women  whose  house  burned  down  was  first  cousins  with  the   governor.  And  so  it  was  a  little  extra  something  going  on  about  that,  which  is  why  she  was  like,   in  your  eyes.  You  know,  you  get  mad,  like,  this  is  ridiculous!   35:19     11   �JG:  So  before  you  joined  the  Women’s  Collective,  obviously  you  were  still  figuring  out  you  were   a  lesbian.  But  were  you  connected  at  all  to  feminism?   35:29   NK:  No.   35:30   JG:  Okay.   35:31   NK:  No,  I  was  connected  to  somebody  who  came  out  in  high  school  and  honestly,  too,  in  that   time,  when  you  came  out  in  high  school,  you  were  ostracized,  you  were  taken  to  therapy,  you   know,  like  your  parents  worked  on  it.  So  the  women  that  I  knew  that  came  out  in  high  school   had  some  big  defenses  for  good  reasons.  But  also  weren’t  like,  reading  feminism  books.  They   were  on  the  ball  fields,  you  know,  they  were  the  jocks.  And  they  were,  you  know,  into  athletics,   let’s  just  say.  And  so  they  had  their  own  little  world,  but  to  me  it  just  wasn’t  about  feminism  at   all,  it  was  just  about…  So,  that’s  kind  of  when  I  realized  who  I  was,  that’s  who  I  was  with,  and  so   September  27th  to  December  2nd,  you  do  the  math,  whatever  that  is,  that’s  how  long  it  took  me   to  go,  “Okay,  no  no  no,  I’m  going  to  be,  I  want  feminism.  I’m  a  feminist,  and  I’m  okay  with  it!”   36:42   JG:  Okay.  So  then  once  you  joined  the  Women’s  Collective,  that  was  sort  of  your  feminist   awakening  as  well  as  your  lesbian  awakening?   36:49   NK:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.  And  then  we  got  to…  we  had  Ronald  Reagan  be  elected  and  I  know   people  love  Reagan,  but  I  was  like,  “Oh  my  God!”  I  mean,  it  was  not  quite  as  bad  as  this  past   election  but  almost.  You  know,  the  Ku  Klux  Klan  had  endorsed  the  Republican  platform.  So  I   remember  being  at  Virginia  Tech  and  having  Ronald  Reagan  be  elected  and  [being]  horrified!   And  that  was  much  more  of  a  prevailing  feeling,  and  then  everybody  has  amnesia,  and  it’s  also   because  things  have  gotten  so  much  worse.  That  it’s  like,  “Well  he  wasn’t  that  bad!”  Cause  he   used  to  really  suck!     37:30   JG:  So  were  you  aware  of  any  other  LGBT  organizations  in  Blacksburg  at  the  time?  Or  were  you   just  within  Virginia  Tech?   37:35   NK:  Yeah,  that’s  as  far  as  I  knew.  I  don’t  know  if  there  were  organizations.  There  were  certainly   people  and  friends,  theaters,  you  know,  like  clusters,  but  not  an  actual  organization,  or  certainly     12   �not  a  student  organization.  And  that’s  what  I  was,  cause  who  would  want  to  hang  out  with  old   people?  [laughs]  So  no,  I’m  not  aware  of  anything,  and  then  the  only  closest  Mecca  was   Roanoke  and  the  bar.   38:05   JG:  The  Park,  you  mean?     38:06   NK:  The  Park…  and  there  was,  I’d  have  to  think.  There  was  something  before…  or  maybe  that   was  it?   38:12   JG:  I  heard  of  something  called  the  Coffee  Pot?  Have  you  ever  heard  of  that?     38:16   NK:  Uh  uh  [no].   38:16   JG:  Okay,  never  mind.   38:17   NK:  That  was  before  me.  So  maybe  it  was  The  Park.  But  I  mean  we  would  leave,  and  it  was  like   exodus  on  the  weekends.  And  I  remember  I  worked  in  Squires  Center  as  a  janitor  or  something   for  student  whatever.  We  would  leave  at  10[pm]  and  get  home  at  4[am],  and  then  I  would  get   up  at  7[am]  and  go  to...  but  that’s  when  that  was  fun  to  me.  But  no,  I  was  aware  of  nothing.   And  so  it  was  all  Roanoke,  and  that’s  sort  of  sad  that  Roanoke  was  a  big  “Waaah!”  The  other   mecca.     But  the  other  thing  that  started  happening  in  the  late  ‘70s  was,  let’s  say,  women’s  music,  and   Olivia  Records2.  And  it’s  also,  you  know,  right  after  Anita  Bryant3—and  I  don’t  know  if  you  know   your  history  that  well—but  Anita  Bryant  really  put  a  lot  of  this  on  the  table,  because  of  what   she  said  and  what  she  did.  So  I  don’t  know  because  I  wasn’t  a  lesbian  then,  and  I  wasn’t  even   thinking  I  was  a  lesbian,  but  she  lit  a  lot  of  fires  that  created  a  backlash  in  the  gay  community   that  again  was  like,  “Screw  y’all.”  So  when  people  make  big  stinks  about  gay  people  and  what   they’re  doing  is  just  giving  us  ammo  [ammunition].  [laughs]  And  helping  us  organize,  too,  which                                                                                                                           2  Recording  studio  founded  in  1973,  focused  on  music  by  lesbian  artists.    An  anti-­‐gay  activist  who  led  the  “Save  Our  Children”  campaign  against  an  anti-­‐discrimination   ordinance  in  Dade  County,  Florida.   3   13   �I  think  is  what’s  going  on  right  now  in  this  world,  cause  I’m  going  up  to  march4  on  Sunday,   Saturday—just  saying!   39:44   JG:  Yes!   39:45   NK:  So  that’s  what  it  is,  but  I’m  not  aware  of  anything.  I  was  in  my  bubble.     39:52   JG:  Yeah.  So  when  did  you  come  out  to  your  family,  or  did  you?   39:58   NK:  So  I  came  out  to  my…  it  took  a  long  time.  I  came  out  to  my  sister  and  brother  first.  But  it   took  a  number  of  years,  and  then  more  years  for  my  parents.  My  parents  were  very   homophobic,  and  my  dad  in  particular.  My  mom,  you  know,  they  would  say  the  worst  things.   “We’re  never  going  to  have  gay  people  in  our  house,”  you  know…  “Never  have  them  over  for   dinner,”  and  I’m  like  sitting  there.  I  remember  in  college,  my  last  year  in  college,  my  dad,  and  it   was  also...  no,  AIDS  hadn’t  started—but  things  were  starting  to  happen  where  my  father  was   being  very  controlling,  and  I  didn’t  want  to  tell  him  because  I  was  really  afraid.  I  didn’t  know   what  would  happen  but  I  was  afraid  to  tell  my  parents.  I  mean,  not  like  they  would  beat  me,   but  they  would  disown  me,  or  mostly  I  would  disappoint  them  or  it  would  be  a  family  problem,   which  it  was.     So  anyway,  so  it  took  me  a  very  long  time.  I  never  stopped  living  as  a  lesbian,  meaning  I  had   girlfriends  and  they’re  like,  “Oh,  she  has  more  girlfriends!”  And,  “Oh,  she  has  more  girlfriends!”   And  I  remember  one  time  I  invited  a  boyfriend  over  from  high  school,  when  I  was  home,  and   you  know  my  mother  was  so  excited  I  had  a  boyfriend  over.  But  I  found  out  he  was  gay,  too,  but   that’s  another  story.  I  never  didn’t  live  as  a  lesbian.  But  I  didn’t  talk  to  them  about  it.  But  I   talked  to  my  mother.  In  my  family  I  have  a  brother  and  sister,  and  my  parents.  Well,  my  brother   and  sister  are  very  Christian,  in  a  way  that  did  not  make  it  feel  very  welcoming  to  let  them   know.  And  so  I  remember  I  came  out  to  my  mother  after  my  sister  had  told  me  that  my  partner   and  I  were  not  allowed  in  her  home,  and  I  was  going  to  go  visit  my  mother  in  her  home,  so  I  had   to  tell  my  mother  that  I  couldn’t  come  see  her  because  my  friend  wasn’t  allowed  in  her  house.   So  she  ultimately  took  it  better.  But  the  thing  that  she  said  to  me…  she  was  shocked  and   surprised,  but  not.  She  was  in  denial  and  she  said,  “Well,  I  guess  it’s  the  difference  between   thinking  you  have  cancer  and  knowing  you  have  cancer.”  Which  is  why  I  didn’t  want  to  tell  her,  I   mean,                                                                                                                             4  NK  was  going  to  march  in  the  Women’s  March  on  Washington  on  January  21,  2017  to  protest   the  inauguration  of  Donald  Trump.     14   �I  think  you’re  talking  about  denial  there.  So  that’s  the  kind  of  family  thing.  So  telling  my  family   and  being  accepted  in  my  family,  I  still  struggle  with  that  today  and  it’s  been  forty  years.  I’ve   recently  let  my  brothers  and  sisters  know  that  I’ve  been  a  lesbian  for  forty  years,  let  us  all  put  it   on  our  list  of  things  to  get  used  to.  We  just  need  to  move  on.  I  don’t  care  anymore.  So  it’s  still   an  issue  that  is  hard  in  my  family.     43:10   JG:  Okay.  So  tell  me  what  you  did  when  you  graduated  from  college.   43:12   NK:  What  I  did  is  I  graduated  from  college,  I  was  at  Virginia  Tech.  So  I  graduated  in  like   December  of  [19]80,  but  anyways  I  was  on  the  four  and  a  half  year  program,  which  was  a  bit  of   a  problem  with  my  father.  But  anyway,  I  left  Virginia  Tech  and  I  went  to  an  internship  at  Blue   Ridge  Public  Television.  “WBRA,  we  need  your  support!”  So  I  had  an  internship  there,  and  then   it  turned  into  a  job.  And  then  I  was  working  two  jobs,  both  at  Blue  Ridge  Public  Television  and   then  I  worked  at  the  Roanoke  Times,  part-­‐time.  And  then  that  turned  into  a  full-­‐time  job  at  the   Roanoke  Times  really  till  ‘86,  so  that’s  where  I  worked.     44:05   JG:  So  did  you  move  to  Roanoke  right  after  you  graduated?   44:06   NK:  I  moved  to  Roanoke.  I  had  an  internship  there  and  I  just  stayed.     44:12   JG:  So  what  was  the  LGBT  community  like  in  Roanoke  when  you  moved  there,  or  when  you  first   got  involved  in  it?   44:21   NK:  Well  the  only  thing  I  knew  was  there  were  gay  men  at  the  bar.  I  didn’t  know  about  any  male   organization.  But  then  I  heard  tell  that  there  was  this  little  thing  going  on  out  of  the  Taylor   House.  And  they  would  meet  once  a  month,  on  the  first  Friday  [laughs].  And  there  was  also,   something  happened.  There  was  a  woman  here  who  had  red  hair  [laughs]  and  she  was   somehow  a  psychologist  here  and  she  was  doing  some  sort  of  programs.  Somehow  we  went  to   a  bar  or  meeting  place,  and  had  either  some  sort  of  talk  or  dance  or  something,  and  then  the   connection  between  my  Blacksburg  life  and  my  Roanoke  life  moved  to  this  group  of  women   that  met  at  the  Taylor  House.  It  was  a  restaurant  in  Salem.  Big  old  house,  two  women  owned  it,   although  I  don’t  think  they  were  lesbian.  It  didn’t  matter.  But  they  would  basically  either  shut   down  or  we  would  just  go  take  it  over  on  Friday,  so  they  probably  should  have  shut  it  down   because  otherwise  their  customers  would  be  mad.  And  so  I  came  into  the  community  in  the     15   �spring  of  1981  or  in  that  range,  and  at  the  same  time  other  people  that  were  key  people  in  First   Friday,  we  all  converged  at  the  same  time.  And  for  me,  I  was  like,  why  isn’t  there  something   going  on?  Because  these  are  amazing  people  and  there  was  no  really  community  things  going   on.   46:19   JG:  Other  than  first  Friday  nights.   46:20   NK:  And  that  was  just  you  go  out  and  drink,  or  eat  dinner.  You  know,  it  was  not  a  thing.  It  was   just  a  get  together.  And  I  don’t  even  know  if  it  had  been  named  First  Friday.  I  remember  we   were  trying  to  think  of  a  name,  and  this  person  with  red  hair  said,  “I  think  we  should  call  it  the   Daylor  House  Tykes”  [laughs].  See  if  anybody  would  know  that.  But  no,  that  wasn’t  it.  But  then   I’ve  discovered  through  this  other  journey  that  somebody  just  said  well,  maybe  just  “First   Fridays”  and  then  at  least  we’ll  know  when  it  is  and  we’ll  do  something.  And  I  can’t  remember   exactly  [how]  that  happened,  but  all  I  remember  is  I  met  some  very  key  people,  that  together   we  created  this  thing,  but  it  was—I  can’t  describe  it  other  than  sometimes  when  people  get   together  there’s  just  electricity,  and  they  become  bigger  than  they  are.  Now  I  don’t  mean  the   people,  but  the  energy  becomes  big,  and  then  we’re  like,  “Hell,  let’s  do  this!”  You  know,  but  still   in  a  very  closeted  scene.     So,  I  didn’t  know  anything  about  the  men’s  community,  and  the  thing  that  I  have  to  say  though,   and  I’ll  probably  start  crying,  is  that  at  that  time,  AIDS  started  happening.  And  so  my  friends,   that  were  my  buddies,  all  started  dying.  And  it  was  scary.  We  didn’t  know  what  it  was.  And  they   would  develop  a  cough,  have  a  sore,  and  then  all  of  a  sudden  it  was  a  death  sentence.  And   there  were  two  men  in  particular  that  I  was  very  close  to  that  I  kind  of  helped.  And  this  is  right   after  the  ‘80s  when  we  were  in  Roanoke  and  they  had  moved  to  D.C.  and  whatever.  But   basically,  all  my  core  buddies  all  died,  all  died.  And  it’s  different  to  know  that,  and  to  see  that,   but  when  you  think  about  your  friends,  like  your  college  friends—what  if  you  just  didn’t  have   any,  cause  they  died?  But  it  was,  the  death  was  frightening.  It  was  full  of  ridicule.  People   laughed  at  it.  And  it  was  Ronald  Reagan  and  Jesse  Helms5  and  like  “these  people  deserve  it,”   and  “keep  your  kids  away  from  them,”  and  “it’s  contagious.”  But  to  watch  your  friends  become   gaunt—and  I  remember  I  went  to  see  a  very  dear  friend  up  in  an  AIDS  ward,  and  it  was  as  much   like  walking  into  a  Holocaust  camp,  other  than  that  it  was  in  color  and  they  didn’t  have  striped   suits.  But  these  beautiful,  funny,  dear,  maddening  [laughs]—these  people—just  watching  them   with  their  skin  just  stretched  over  their  bones,  it  was  very  hard.   We  lost  this  amazing  generation  of  men—and  some  women,  but  really  men—to  this  thing   that…  it  wasn’t  like  there  was  a  big  groundswell  to  deal  with  AIDS.  It  was,  “We  stay  away  from   it.  They  deserve  it.”  I  can’t  tell  you  how  many  AIDS  jokes,  you  know,  and  it’s  just  not  funny,  it’s                                                                                                                           5    A  long-­‐time  conservative  senator  from  North  Carolina  who  vocally  opposed  AIDS  research.   16   �just  not  funny.  So  I  honestly  have  not  connected  with  men.  And  gay  men  and  lesbians  are  just   really  different,  but  my  buddy  buddy  buddies,  the  ones  I  would  want  to  be  seeing  now?  They’re   all  dead.  You  know,  and  they  died,  you  know,  then.  And  so  it  was  important  to  do  the  quilt,  the   national  quilt6,  and  there  was  a  lot  of  outpour  to  deal  with  them.     But  that’s,  and  honestly,  “LGBT”?  You  know,  all  of  those  weren’t—it  was  gay  men  and  lesbians,   and  there  were  certainly  transsexuals  but  that’s  not  what  they  were  called.  And  bisexual  was   kind  of  whatever.  But  what  we  did  was  sort  of  open  up  the  safe  space  for  all  the  other  letters  of   the  acronym  to  come  in,  but  they  weren’t  there.  I  mean  basically  it  was  lesbian  and  gay,  that   was  it.  “Queer”  is  something  that  we  would  call  each  other,  but  we  didn’t  usually  generally  self-­‐ identify—although  I’m  totally  fine  with  the  word.  I  would  self-­‐identify  with  other  lesbians.  I   consider  myself  a  lesbian.  But  I’m  not  offended  by  anything  else,  it’s  just  that  piece  wasn’t  my   identity  because  mine  was—and  it  also  had  to  do  with  First  Friday—but  it’s  also  just  like,  “We   are  lesbians.”   51:33   JG:  Yeah,  so  do  you  feel  like  there  was  very  much  awareness  of  AIDS  within  the  lesbian   community  or  First  Friday?  Or  how  did  the  lesbian  community  deal  with  that,  in  your   experience?   51:45   NK:  Well  it  was  somewhat  separate  because  it  wasn’t  us.  But  it  was  very  much  us.  It  was  by   association.  You  know,  in  some  ways,  lesbians  and  gay  men  are  totally  different  worlds,  but   because  we  are  all  gay,  that’s  what  unites  us.  All  the  information  about  safe  sex,  and  whatever,   was  really  hard  hit  in  the  men’s  community  but  not  so  much  the  women’s.  I  mean  we  were  like,   “Ah,  we  all  got  tested,”  or  “I  got  tested”  so  they  ask  you  all  these  questions  like,  “Oh,  have  you   had  sex  with  a  man?”  and  it’s  like,  “No.  No.  No.  No.  No.  No.”  But  you’re  gay,  but  that’s  just  a   word.  You’re  not  doing  any  of  whatever  was  going  on.  There  was  certainly  an  awareness,  but   the  impact  was  very  different.  Very  different.  Because  like,  if  there  had  been  a  lesbian  disease,   it’d  be  different.   52:59   JK:  Okay,  so  let’s  see.  Alright,  so,  tell  me  more  about  First  Friday  and  how  it  came  to  be  more   than  just  meeting  at  Taylor  House  every  Friday  night?   53:19   NK:  So,  as  I  said,  I  came  to  Durham—   53:18                                                                                                                           6  The  NAMES  Project  AIDS  Memorial     Quilt,  a  memorial  to  celebrate  the  lives  of  people  who   have  died  of  AIDS.     17   �JG:  Do  you  mean  Roanoke?   53:19   NK:  I  meant  Roanoke,  I’m  sorry.  Because  then  I  went  to  Durham.  [laughs]   53:23   JG:  Okay.  [laughs]   53:25   NK:  But  Roanoke.  So  I  went  to  Roanoke  and  found  this  amazing  group  of  women.  Most  of   whose  first  name  begins  with  K.  The  letter  K.  [Laughs]  Not  to  identify  them.  But,  as  I  said,  there   was  just  this  energy,  but  there  was  also  this  thirst.  It’s  like  it’s  great  that  we’re  getting  together,   but  what  about  all  these  cool  things:  all  these  performers,  and  these  books,  and  these  talks,   and  these  art  exhibits.  And  then  one  of  the  sort  of  matriarchs  of  the  community,  was  going  to   be  really  old—she  was  turning  fifty—and  that  was  like  “WHOA!”  Because  when  you’re  twenty-­‐ five  that’s  pretty  freaking  old.  And  she  I  think  maybe  was  having  a  hard  time,  so  what  happened   was  that  this  group  of  women,  over  the  summer—so  this  [woman],  we’ll  call  her  Babs’s   birthday  was  November,  so  come  late  spring  we  began  to  organize  a  huge  surprise  party  for  this   person.  We  asked  her,  “In  a  perfect  world,  what  would  you  want,  like  a  really  big  party?”  So   what  we  did  is  the  day  of  her  birthday,  we  gave  her  a  really  big  pretend  party,  where  we  all   went  to  her  house.  And  then,  the  next  day,  well  we  had  to  start  being  able  to  rent  things—so  I   don’t  know  exactly  how  it  happened,  and  we’re  unearthing  this,  but  we  got  a  checking  account,   and  we  got  this  and  we  got  that,  and  somebody  rented  the  Roanoke  County  Women’s  Club  for   our  first  big  do.  And  so  they  went  out  to  Craig  County,  picked  up  this  person,  said  just,  “Get   dressed.”  And  picked  them  up  in  a  limousine  or  something,  I  don’t  know  whatever  happened.   And  then  had  this  huge—huge  for  us  then—party.  There  was  a  band  that  came  together  out  of   just  the  musicians  in  the  group.  It  was  called  “Witch.”  But  that  was  the  only  performance  of   that  band—did  not  go  on  tour.  But  we  created  this  amazing,  magical  night  for  this  person  and   that  really  galvanized  us.   55:54   NK:  After  that  we  came  to  organize  things,  and  then  it  was  decided,  “Oh,  we  should  have  a   retreat.”  And  it  would  be  this  weekend-­‐long  thing,  and  we  had  all  these  grand  ideas,  so  we   went  out  and  rented  a  camp.  We  didn’t  tell  them  who  we  were  because  we  don’t  do  that,  and   then  there  were  thirty  of  us.  It  was  mostly  like  all  the  organizers  were  all  there,  and  it  was  fun.   So  then  we  did  it  again.  Then  it  was  like  people  came  out  of  the  woodwork.  We  had  over  a   hundred  people  come.  We  had  cabins  and  Olympics,  and  one  person  came  out—well  first  of  all,   it  was  always  opened,  at  least  this  is  my  memory,  by  one  of  these  people  came  out  and  said,   “This  is  an  amazing  thing  that  we’re  doing.”  And  it  was  a  very  real,  honest,  like  we  are  here     18   �together.  Then  this  other  person  came  out  dressed  as  a  nun,  and  gave  us  all  the  camp  rules.7   Then  we  had  performances,  and  we  cooked  in  the  kitchen,  we  had  cabins,  we  had  games,  we   had  Olympics.  It  was  very  exciting.  So  that  went  on—the  retreat  went  on  for  a  number  of  years.   We  could  not  be  in  that  camp  again.  We  got  kicked  out  because  we  were  lesbians.  And  so  then   we  decided,  okay,  we’ve  got  to  put  our  big-­‐girl  pants  on  and  then  tell  everybody  that  we’re   lesbians,  and  then  we  couldn’t  find  a  camp  [laughs].  Then  we  finally—I  don’t  know  if  we   halfway  lied  or  something,  and  then…   57:33   NK:  So  it  went  on  for  a  number  of  years.  For  me,  that  was  just  something  that  was  really  critical.   Honestly,  all  of  the  First  Friday  activities  for  me  were  critical  in  my  life.  It  actually  helped  me.   I’m  a  professional  meeting  and  event  planner  now.  So  organizing,  and  doing  everything  that  I   did  through—  actually,  everything  for  my  life,  through  gay  and  lesbian  groups,  and  through  First   Friday  in  particular.  And  then  I  just  basically  said  I’ve  done  this  my  whole  life,  so  then  I  just  got,   you  know,  paid  for  a  job  doing  it.  [Laughs]  So  on-­‐the-­‐job  training,  lesbian  training.  Anyway,  it   was  just  this  incredibly  magical  time  where  these  amazing  people  all  got  together.  It  was  very   warm,  very  welcoming,  we  were  not  political,  we  just  were.  It  was  about  community,  it  was   building  a  community.  And  later,  things  became  political  and  whatever,  but  until  you  can  create   a  space  where  people  can  be  safe  and  be  who  they  are  and  whatever,  that  you  will  never  have   whatever’s  the  next  step.  First  Friday  is  just  an  incredibly  important  part  of  my  life.  You  know,   it’s  over,  it’s  done,  it’s  history.  Now  we’re  all  gray  and  whatever,  but  it  was  really  fun.  [Laughs]     59:00   JG:  So  tell  me  a  little  bit  about  the  demographics  of  the  people  who  were  involved.  Where  were   they  from?  Basically,  how  would  you  describe  the  types  of  people  who  came?   59:15   NK:  To  the—   59:17   JG:  To  First  Friday,  or  to  the  retreat,  any  of  that.   59:18   NK:  Okay.  So  First  Friday  itself  basically,  we  were  mostly  white  women.  A  few,  four  or  five,   African  American  women.  Mostly  educated.  Feminist  oriented,  but  not  necessarily  how  you   would  define  a  feminist,  you  know,  then  you  just  start  splitting  hairs.  “How  feminist  are  you?”   Ugh.  “Do  you  mean  just  in  the  women’s  bathroom?”  Anyway,  I’ve  been  through  a  lot  of  that.   There  were  also  just,  I  think  different  classes  of  people.  I  think  there  were  some  more                                                                                                                           7  Kathryn  L.  Beranich,  whose  oral  history  is  also  available  through  the  Southwest  Virginia   LGBTQ+  History  Project.     19   �intellectual  university  people.  There  were  many  working  class  women.  The  commonality  was   lesbians,  other  than  that…  Some  people  would  say,  “We’re  bisexual”  or  whatever,  it’s  like,  yeah   okay,  whatever.  But  it  wasn’t…  It  was  just  like,  we’re  lesbians.  You  can  be  who  you  want  to  be,   but  just  so  you  know,  this  is  what  we’re  talking  about.     1:00:29   NK:  The  retreats  then,  had  a  much  larger  ripple.  We  had  these  followings.  We  had  like  groupies   from  Durham  and  from  Norfolk  and  from  Nags  Head  and  these  other  little  smaller  communities   of  people,  little  circles,  would  come.  That  is  true.  And  for  them  it  was  really  fun  because  it   wasn’t  political.  It  was  silly.  It  was  also  not  something  that  you  would  just  come  and  view.  You   participate.  We  had  these  bizarre  Olympics  and  these  games  where,  you  know,  it’s  just  crazy   stuff  we  would  do.  But  it  was  all  fun.  Then  we’d  have  a  dance,  or  we’d  have  a  performer,  or  a   comedian  come,  or  these  people  that  were  kind  of,  in  the  lesbian  world,  famous!  Come  to  our   little  podunk  thing,  which  was  really  fun.     1:01:23   JG:  So  how’d  you  get  in  touch  with  those  groups  in  other  geographic  areas?  Or  find  out  they   existed  to  invite  them?   1:01:28   NK:  Well  honestly,  you  just  have  to  remember,  we  had  the  mail  and  the  phone.   1:01:37   JG:  But  how  would  you  find  out  that  they  existed  in  the  first  place?   1:01:40   NK:  Somebody  would  call  somebody.     1:01:41   JG:  Okay.   1:01:42   NK:  Word  of  mouth.  Send  it  out.  Or  maybe  they  had  a  newsletter.  Like  I  know,  in  Durham,   where  I  now  live,  there  was  a  newsletter  called  The  Newsletter,  and  we  would  put  something  in   that.  Really,  honestly  it  was  much  more  word  of  mouth.  We  would  mail  it  to  a  few  people  and   they  would  go,  “Oh  my  God!”  and  they  would  get  their  little  circle  of  people.  But  it  wasn’t  like  a   marketing  strategy  or  anything.  We  would  just  send  it  out.  “Give  me  your  names.”  We  would   never  sell  names.  That’s  why  everything  was—  First  Friday,  I  think  we  had  this  definition  that   was  like  “First  Friday  is  a...  women  who  get  together  on  the  first  Friday  of  every  month  discuss   issues  of  the  day.”  But  you  know,  there  were  a  few  words.     20   �1:02:29   NK:  We  would  just  pretend  we  were  a  women’s  club.  And  that’s  why  Skip  Two  Periods—well   first  of  all,  nobody  understood  what  that  was  about,  unless  you’re  a  woman  and  you’re,  you   know,  have  your  period.  Anyway,  so  we  weren’t  going  to  say,  “Hi,  we’re  lesbians,”  or  “Hi,  we’re   gay.”  None  of  that!  We  were  under  the  wire.  Intentionally,  because  that’s  where  we  needed  to   be.  Literally,  I  think  it  was  a  lot  of  word  of  mouth,  a  lot  of,  “Hey,  you  need  to  do  this.”  But  just   know  it  was  mail,  that’s  it.  No  voicemail  machines—like  [the  phone  was]  busy,  or  not.  [Laughs]   Postcards,  that’s  it.  Hard  to  imagine,  but  that’s  what  it  was.   1:03:12   JG:  So  when  people  came  to  the  retreat,  would  they  know  that  that  was  a  lesbian  retreat?   1:03:16   NK:  Oh  yeah.   1:03:17   JG:  Okay.   1:03:18   NK:  So  we  had  a  registration  form,  and  we  said  we  were  lesbians  in  it,  we  just  didn’t  say  it  on   the  envelope.  You  had  to  open  up.  So  it  was  definitely…  yeah.     1:03:31   JG:  So  what  was  your  role  in  First  Friday?   1:03:35   NK:  Well  I  would  say  I  was  one  of  the  head  instigators,  along  with  other  people  that  have  a   name  that  begins  with  K  [laughs].  I  would  say  I  was  a  lot  of  the  organizing  energy.  I  would  do   logistics.  I  would  do—for  the  retreats  for  example—I  would  rent  the  camp.  I  would  do  this.  I   would  kind  of  manage  that.  I  would  manage  the  registration.  I  was  sort  of  an  event  planner   [laughs]  for  that.  And  also,  I  just  felt  really  passionate  about  it.  I  think  I  brought  a  lot  of  silliness,   strange  ideas,  playfulness  to  what  we  were  doing,  when  a  lot  of  lesbians  had  some  very  serious   [demeanors],  and  everybody  is  just  mad.  You  were  like  “Ack,  who  cares  about  that!  Let’s  not  do   that,  let’s  just  have  fun.”  Like  have  your  own  opinions,  but.  I  was  in  no  way  the  lead,  but  I  was   one.  And  that  was  the  key  to  it,  is  that  there  was  a  really,  very  amazing  core  of  people  that  had   vision  and  leadership,  and  then  there  was  do-­‐ers,  and  then  there  were  people  that  came,  and   then  people  that  complained,  and  you  know,  all  that  kind  of  stuff.  I  think  that’s  a  fair   assessment.   1:05:12     21   �JG:  So,  let’s  see,  what  was  your  favorite  part  of  the  retreat?   1:05:23   NK:  Well  first  of  all,  for  me  the  retreat  started  months  before,  because  we  were  planning  it,  so   planning  it  was  really  fun.  And  then,  I  would  do,  along  with  other  people,  do  the  registration.  So   then  you  could  see  how  many  people  were  coming.  And  then  I  really  loved  it,  probably  the   opening  session,  when  we  had  come  together,  and  there  was  this  really  cool  thing.  I  also  loved   the  Olympics.  I  was  the  torchbearer.  Okay?  And  every  year,  this  other  person  and  I,  she  would   sew  me  a  costume,  and  every  year  we  would  have  a  theme.  So  one  year  I  was  a  mermaid  on  the   back  of  a  truck,  and  then  one  year,  I  think  there  was  something  going  on  with  space  and  I  was   Sissy  Space  Dyke,  and  then  I  was  this,  and  every  year  we  had  a  theme  that  was  just  ridiculous.   So  I  would  say  probably  the  Olympics—not  necessarily  participating  in  them,  but  running  them   and  watching  people  just  have  fun.  It’s  kind  of  hard  to  describe,  but  just  that  joy  in  knowing   that  people  were  coming  together,  they  were  making  friends,  they  were  making  girlfriends,   they  were  breaking  up  with  girlfriends…  all  of  that.  And  I  certainly  was  part  of  that,  but  to  me  it   was  just  the  community  building  and  the  creating  our  own  environment  when  there  was   nothing.  That  was  incredibly  satisfying  to  watch  that  unfold.     1:07:06   JG:  So  tell  me  more  about  the  relationships  between  people  in  First  Friday.  Like  you  mentioned   that  people  would  get  girlfriends  and  stuff—   1:07:16   NK:  Yes.   1:07:17   JG:  How  did  those  dynamics  work?   1:07:20   NK:  Well,  sometimes  better  than  others.  So  yes,  there’s  definitely—and  I  have  to  own  that  I  was   very  much  a  part  of  that  culture—there  was  definitely  some  women  that  were  core  people  that   stayed  together.  There’s  definitely  some  breakups,  definitely  some  drama.  But  the  reality  was,   it  was  never  like  I  see  some  heterosexual  relationships  where  you  break  up  with  somebody  and   you  never  see  them  again.  This  is,  you  break  up  with  somebody  and  they’re  at  the  next   meeting.  So  that  can  lead  to  a  little  drama.  And  yes,  you  know,  it’s  definitely  part  of  it,  but  it’s   just  sort  of  part  of  it.  It’s  just  part  of  it.  I  don’t  know.  And  there’s  definitely,  you  know,  little   swappies  going  around,  and  I  don’t  mean—our  community  was  not  like  outrageously  sexual   and  swinging  and  all  of  that.  But  basically,  there  was  definitely  different  couplings.  So  that  led   to  some  upset  sometimes  for  sure.  But  you  know,  it’s  just  the  deal.     1:08:39     22   �JG:  So  what  role  did  sex  play  in  the  community,  and  what  were  people’s  attitudes  towards  it?   1:08:47   NK:  Umm…  [pause]  Let  me  think.  So,  some  of  it  was  about  sex,  some  of  it  was  just  about   romance  and  coupling.  Sex  wasn’t  like  a  lot  of  what  people  talked  about.  They  did  it,  but  it   wasn’t  like  so  out  there.  I  do  remember  there  was  one  woman  that  came  to  a  retreat,  that   really  expected  things  to  be  a  little  more  open  sexually,  and  was  sort  of  bitching  that  nobody   was  having  sex  with  her.  And  I  was  like  “Whoo,  work  on  your  presentation  there,  gal!”  So,  I   don’t  know.  It  certainly  was  a  part  of  it,  but  it  wasn’t  as  articulated  as  [a]  community  if  that   makes  any  sense.  So  I  did  my  part.  [laughs]   1:09:45   JG:  Was  butch/femme  a  part  of  the  culture?   1:09:45   NK:  Sure.  But  some  of  that  was  really  kind  of  playfully  done,  and  some  women  are  more  butch   and  some  are  more  femme.  It  was  sort  of  out  there,  but  it  wasn’t  as—it  wasn’t  restrictive.  I   think  in  any  relationship  with  two  women—and  it  also  depends  on  what  you  mean  by   butch/femme,  is  it  your  household  chores?  Is  it  sex?  Is  it  whatever?  I  mean,  I  think  there’s  such   degrees  of  it.  I  remember  trying  to  describe  to  my  mother,  and  she  was  like,  “Well,  how  do  you   know  who’s…”  and  she  was  not  talking  about  sex,  but,  “How  do  you  know  who’s  going  to  do   what?”  It’s  like  well,  I  iron  and  this  person  doesn’t,  and  I  put  dishes  in  the  sink  and  they  don’t,   and  somebody  mows  the  lawn  and  I  like  a  screwdriver.  So  you  know,  it’s  not  the  same,  but  just   defined  differently.   1:10:41   JG:  So  tell  me  more  about  Skip  Two  Periods.  Were  you  involved  in  making  that?   1:10:45   NK:  Well,  let’s  just  say  it  was  always  the  next  thing.  If  I  wrote  anything…  I  actually  probably   provided  the  logistics  for  the  things  that  were  written.  I  had  the  key  to  the  mailbox  and  I  helped   with  stamping  and  mailing,  but  I  was  not  as  involved  personally  in  that.  I  loved  it  and  anyway,  I   was  never  a  writer  in  that  way.  I  was  more  in  the  mechanics  of  it,  or  making  sure  that  it   happened  or  took  it  to  the  post  office.  But  it  was  awesome!  It  was  really  awesome.  And  just   that  it  was  nicely  done  and  people  really  thought  about  it,  and  it’s  something  we  really  looked   forward  to.  We  chose  it  to  be  quarterly  because  they’re  like,  “Oh,  I  can’t  do  that  every  month,”   or  whatever.  It  was  also  a  way  to  get  things  out.  I  was  participating,  but  I  wasn’t  key  to  that.     1:11:57     23   �JG:  I  thought  I  saw  something  in  it,  I  was  looking  through  the  ones  that  we  have,  and  I  thought  I   saw  something  that  mentioned  that  you  wrote  the  “Lez-­‐Fun”  column  or  something?   1:12:07   NK:  Yes!  [laughs]  Okay.  Right!  See  I  don’t  remember.  So,  I  worked  at  the  Roanoke  Times,  and   I’m  not  really  a  reporter  person,  but  I  wrote—there’s  a  mini-­‐page  or  “News  Fun”—I  don’t  even   know.  I  don’t  know  if  the  Roanoke  Times  is  still  alive.  But  anyway,  as  part  of  my  job,  I  had  a   weekly  column  that  was  called  “News  Fun,”  and  so  I  would  go  out  and  do  some  story  about   kids,  and  then  inside  was  like  a  syndicated  puzzle  thing.  So  every  week  I  would  do  this.  I  also  did   a  column  called  “Quickline,”  which  was    you  know,  “Call  us  with  your  trouble,”  and  I  wrote   obituaries  and  weather  and  all  that  kind  of  stuff.  So,  I  must  have  done  “Lez-­‐Fun”  because  why   wouldn’t  I?  [laughs]  That  sounds  very  familiar,  but  I  don’t  know  what  I  did  with  that.     1:13:09   JG:  Okay.   1:13:10   NK:  But  that’s  the  kind  of  thing  I  would  provide  maybe  little  pieces  of  content,  but  I  wasn’t  an   editor,  “Let’s  piece  this  together.”  Other  people  that  have  other  names  that  begin  with  K  did   that.  [laughs]     1:13:23   JG:  Right.  Okay.  What  exactly  was  the  relationship  between  Skip  Two  Periods  and  First  Friday?   1:13:29   NK:  It  was  the  newsletter  of  First  Friday.  So  it  was  all  the  same  characters.  Sort  of  like  Mexican   food,  it’s  all  the  same  thing  just  in  different  order.  [laughs]     1:13:42   JG:  Okay.   1:13:43   NK:  Yeah,  that  was  us.     1:13:44   JG:  What  purpose  do  you  think  that  it  served  in  the  community?   1:13:48   NK:  Skip  Two  Periods?  Well,  it  was  a  way  to  connect  before  internet.  I  mean  think  about  it,  can   you  imagine  it?  No!  No  phones,  no  Facebook,  no  nothing.  It  was  something  that  was  almost  like     24   �when  I  hear  people  talking  about  radio  in  the  living  room—it  was  the  thing  you  look  forward  to.   So  it  was  good,  it  was  thought  provoking,  it  was  mindful.  You  know,  we  were  smart  people.  We   also  wanted  to  be  silly  and  not  take  ourselves  too  seriously  so…  hence  “Skip  Two  Periods.”  I   think  it  was  the  conduit.  It  was  a  way  we  connected  when  all  these  other  things  weren’t  even,   you  know,  I  was  still  using  my  typewriter,  just  saying.  With  the  electro  thing,  the  little  corrector   thing  was  like,  “WHOA!  Look  at  that.”  [laughs]  Don’t  worry,  one  day  you’ll  be  going,  “Oh  my   God,  I  had  an  iPhone!  It  was  so  cool!”  [laughs]     1:14:47   JG:  Right.  [laughs]     1:14:48   NK:  Anyway…   1:14:50   JG:  So,  I  saw  that  the  Lesbian  Herstory  Archives  came  to  one  of  the  early  retreats  and  did  some   presentation  about  history  stuff.  Do  you  remember  anything  about  that?   1:15:02   NK:  I  do!  Her  name  was…  a  person  [laughs]  who’s  very  into  herstory.  And  I  remember  we  also   took  a  tour  up  to  the  Herstory  Archives,  and  I  don’t  know  if  people  sent  stuff  there.  But  I  think   the  thing  that  we  got  from  that  was  that  we  learned  that  our  lives  mattered,  in  a  time  when  we   just  sort  of  didn’t  think  so.  When  you’re  kind  of  in  a  shunned  group,  you  don’t  realize  what   you’re  doing  and  you  also  don’t  realize  that  every  little  step  is  actually  going  to  make  something   really  gonna  happen,  because  that  thing  is  never  going  to  happen  if  you  don’t  do  all  this  other   little  stuff,  and  so…  I  know  that  people  collected  things,  I  know  that  there’s  a  video  project   going  on  now,  I  know  you’re  talking  to  folks,  and  you  know,  I  mean  for  me,  I’m  excited  because   I  don’t  even…  like,  I  have  kids  in  college  and  I  don’t  think  I’ve  ever  ever  told  them  about  First   Friday.  I  don’t  mean  that  in  a  bad  way,  but  it’s  just  like,  “Oh  yeah,  you  know,  that  was  college,   whatever.”  And  now,  I  think—actually  I’ve  talked  to  one  of  my  daughters  about  this—I  said,   “You  know,  I’m  going  to  go  do  this  thing,  and  this  person  came  to  videotape  and  she  stayed   with  us  and  we’re  going  to  go  do  this.”  And  she  said,  “What’s  it  about?”  So  it’s  kind  of  hard  to   describe.  It’s  something  that  I’ve  just  sort  of  stored  away.  And  so  my  archives,  I’m  kind  of  going,   “Oh  God,  where  is  it?”  We  literally  just  found  the  Olympic  torch  last  night.  A  woman  in   Gatlinburg,  Tennessee.  And  we’re  like,  “You  get  your  butt  up  here,”  and  so  she’s  coming  up   tomorrow.  And  it’s  like,  “Bring  that  stuff!  We  need  it!”  Anyway,  so  you  know,  it’s  people,  but   mostly  we  just  want  to  see  each  other,  you  know,  it’s  fun.     1:16:56   JG:  So  I  also  noticed  that  there  were  a  bunch  of  articles  in  Skip  Two  Periods  about  lesbian   history,  like  little  blurbs  about  like,  Eleanor  Roosevelt,  or  other  lesbian  figures.     25   �1:17:06   NK:  Trivia!  Yeah—   1:17:09   JG:  Yeah,  I  was  just  wondering  if  you  feel  like  with  that,  and  the  Lesbian  Herstory  Archives,  if   there  was  an  awareness  of  lesbian  history  within  the  group?   1:17:18   NK:  Mhmm,  yeah.  I  think  that  it  was  good  and  it  helped  us…  it  gave  us  value.  I  don’t  mean  that…   it’s  like,  “Oh,  well  this  is  important,  hmm.”  So  yeah,  I  think  part  of  it—some  of  the  people  also   that  would  write  the  stories  have  a  certain  opinion.  I  can’t  say  that  all  of  the  circles  of  all  of  the   lesbians  cared  that  much  about  it,  or  whatever,  but  we’ve  certainly  been,  as  we’re  doing  this   video  project8—I’m  just  assisting—I  mean  people  are  thrilled.  We  just  got  off  the  phone  with   someone  who’s  like,  “Oh  my  God,  I’ll  talk  to  you  tomorrow!”  So  we’re  gonna  go  talk  to  her   tomorrow,  and  I’m  like,  “Do  you  have  all  the  checkbooks,  because  we  couldn’t  even—.”  We   were  an  organization,  we  spent  money,  we  signed  contracts,  we—I  don’t  know  how  we  made   money—I’d  be  curious.  [laughs]  But  you  know  what  I  mean?  We  were  an  organization,  but  I   can’t  remember  how  we  organized,  I  just  remember  that  we  organized.  Because  it  didn’t  seem   unusual,  it  was  just  what  we  were  going  to  do.     1:18:26   JG:  So,  do  you  remember  any  conflicts  arising?   1:18:29   NK:  Absolutely!   1:18:30   JG:  What  kinds  of  things?   1:18:31   NK:  So,  I  think  what  happened  is  that  we  had  this  magical  coming  together  and  the  fact  that  we   were  only  just  lesbians.  That  was  our  commonality.  Then  once  you  get  past  that,  then  you’re   like,  “Well,  how  feminist  are  you?”  or  “how  this?”  or  drugs—or  drinking  and  alcohol?  It’s  not  so   much  a  drug  culture.  But  kids,  boy-­‐kids,  dogs,  all  that  sort  of  stuff.  I  think  First  Friday  was  really   strong  and  really  fun,  but  you  know,  it  really  wasn’t  built  to  last.  It  wasn’t  this  conscious,  “We’re   going  to  have  organizations—I  mean  jobs—and  you  do  this  and  you  do  this  and  you  do  this,  and   then  we’ll  switch.  We’re  going  to  build  this  foundation.”  It  wasn’t  that  at  all.  It  was  a  bunch  of                                                                                                                           8  NK  was  assisting  Kathryn  L.  Beranich  (oral  history  available)  with  a  video  project  documenting   the  history  of  First  Friday.     26   �people  getting  together.  And  then  after  the  conflicts  started  to  arise,  it  was  like,  “Does  First   Friday  pay  for  alcohol?  Does…  what  about  this?  And  are  you  equating  children  with  dogs?”   [laughs]  Cause  we  said  no  kids  or  dogs  at  the  retreat.  [screams]  Anyway,  we’re  not  as   politically—I  mean,  back  in  the  day,  in  the  ‘70s  we  were  talking  political  correctness,  and  then   all  of  a  sudden  somebody  figured  it  out  later  in  the  ‘90s  that  that  was  a  thing,  but  we’ve  been   dealing  with  that.  So  I  would  say,  we  pretty  much  avoided  conflict,  and  not  in  a  bad  way,  but  we   just  agreed  to  sort  of  set  conflict  aside,  but  over  time…  And  also,  when  things  are  so  personality   driven,  and  then  some  of  those  personalities  leave,  or  change,  and  other  people  step  in…  I   would  just  say  we  didn’t  build  this  to  last  thirty  years.  We  built  it  and  we  were  young,  we  didn’t   have  kids—many  of  us  do  have  kids  now.  We  were  in  our  twenties  and  thirties—except  for  that   fifty  year-­‐old!  [laughs]  We  were  just  exploring  who  we  were.  So,  yes.  And  then  the  girlfriend   thing.  [laughs,  meows  like  an  angry  cat]  So,  for  sure.     1:20:49   JG:  So  what  sorts  of  things  caused  the  conflicts?  I  saw  some  things  in  Skip  Two  Periods—and   you  mentioned  about  alcohol—   1:20:57   NK:  Alcohol!   1:20:58   JG:  And  then  yeah…   1:20:59   NK:  Kids,  boy-­‐kids.  Are  boy-­‐kids  coming  to  a  thing?  Or  when  is  a  boy  a  man  [kind  of]  thing?  See,   at  the  same  time  there  are  all  these  music  festivals  going  around  the  country,  and  there  were  a   lot  of  rules,  and  a  lot  of  drama,  and  a  lot  of  somewhat  divisiveness,  and  we  were  trying  to   specifically  avoid  that,  but  I  think  it  was  really  just  a  matter  of  time.  At  a  certain  point,  when  do   your…  I  mean  those  were  the  big  things.  Alcohol,  no  alcohol.  Smoking—although  everybody   freaking  smoked  then.  [makes  choking  noise,  laughs]  So  we  couldn’t  even  touch  that  one.  It  was   like,  too  bad  everybody’s  going  to  sit  here  smoking.  But  the  culture  did  that.  So  yeah,  there  was   definitely  conflict.  And  when  you  don’t  have  really  a  hierarchy  and  a  structure  and  it’s   personality  based…  then  you  don’t  have  a  constitution  to  bounce  things  off  of,  it’s  just  people’s   personalities  or  their  thoughts,  so.  We  didn’t  build  it  for  that,  and  that’s  basically  what  tore  it   apart  I  think.  Or  just,  people  started  leaving.  Then  when  your  key  people  go,  then  other  people   come  in.  It’s  like,  “Well,  that’s  not  the  same.”  Because  we  didn’t  build  it  to  say,  “Okay,  you’re   the  head  now.  You’re  the  second.  You  have  the  checkbook.  You  do  this.”    But  that  was  so   boring.  Who  would  want  do  that.  [laughs]   1:22:35   JG:  What  would  you  say  was  the  overall  attitude  towards  men?     27   �1:22:40   NK:  You  know,  it  wasn’t  against  men,  it  was  just  for  women.  We  wanted  to  be  around  lesbians.   So  it  wasn’t  anti-­‐male  as  a  lot  of  more  political  lesbian  feminist  [groups  were].  Some  people  did   feel  that  they  didn’t  want  to  have  men  around  just  because  it  was  a  safer  space,  and  some  of   that  has  to  do  with  their  own  personalities  or  their  own  preferences.  But  men  were  never  a   focus,  and  sometimes  men  get  very  upset  that  they’re  not  the  focus,  so  I  would  say  “meh.”   [laughs]   1:23:20   JG:  [laughs]  Yeah.  What  role  did  music  play  in  the  community?   1:23:24   NK:  Huge  role.  Huge  role  with  dancing,  the  bars—but  we  didn’t  really,  I  mean  this  wasn’t  a  bar   thing.  But  women’s  music—women  articulating  in  their  music  our  lives—was  like  another  way   to  tell  a  story,  which  was  very  powerful,  so  music  was  huge.  Just  in  performances  and  at  the   retreat.  Oh  my  God!  “I’m  so  excited  by”—what’s  that  group—  [singing]  “I’m  so  excited,  I  can’t   hide  it.”  Sisters9—anyway,  one  of  them!  Man,  we  would  blare  that  in  the  dining  hall,  we  were   dancing,  cutting  potatoes  and  it  was  a  blast,  so  music  is  key.  I  think  music  more  than  books  in   some  ways,  because  it’s  so  a  sensory  thing.  I  mean  reading  and  books  and  workshops  were  also   important,  but  the  music  to  me  was  more  of  a…  [it]  brought  everybody  together.     1:24:34   JG:  Tell  me  about  the  workshops.   1:24:36   NK:  There  were  always  just—[at]  the  retreats—a  potpourri  of  them.  Some  it  was  like  tie-­‐dying,   and  some  was,  you  know,  how  to  have  a  herstory  archive,  some  was  on  a  certain  book,  some   were  legal  issues,  some  were  people  fighting  for  their  kids,  it  was  just  all  over  the  board.  It  was   just  basically  decided  by  a  small  group  of  people  who  were  just  like,  “Hey  let’s  do  this,”  or  “Who   can  do  this?”  Or  movement,  dance  and  movement.  But  it  was  eclectic.  And  often  irreverent.  We   loved  to  be  irreverent.  And  pageantry!  Very  important.  Pageantry!  Very  important.     1:25:21   JG:  What  other  sorts  of  events  did  you  have,  other  than  the  retreat  and  concerts?   1:25:31                                                                                                                           9    The  Pointer  Sisters   28   �NK:  Well  we  had  the  parties  every  month.  Then  there  were…  we  had  a  play—Split  Britches10— which  was  great.  We  did  that,  I  think,  here  at  Roanoke  College.  Is  this  Roanoke  College?   1:25:41   JG:  Yes.   1:25:42   NK:  I  think  so.  I  think  so.  I  think  I  remember  that.  So  we  would  produce  a  play,  comedian,  Kate   Clinton,  hysterical.  I  don’t  think  we  brought  JoAnn  Loulan  here,  she’s  the  sex  one,  I  think  that   was  in  Durham.  But  reading,  film…  not  so  much  film.  But  also  you  didn’t  have  Netflix,  you  didn’t   have  any  of  that  stuff.  And  films  were  expensive  to  bring,  you  didn’t  have  a  DVD.  So  you  had  to   bring  one  of  those  [big  projectors].  So  films  were  a  little  more—like  we  never  would  have  had  a   film  festival.  Or  we  would  just  go  to  the  ones  where  there  were  lesbians  in  it.  [laughs]  “Oh,  let’s   all  go  to  this  one!”  So…   1:26:32   JG:  So  were  there  movies  with  lesbians  in  them?   1:26:34   NK:  There  were  some.  There  were  some.  I  can  only  think  of  this  one  line,  “It’s  awful  when  your   dogs  hurt.”  Anyway,  there  were  some.  Not  a  lot.  We  loved  reading  about  Eleanor  Roosevelt,   because  all  that  was  just  sort  of  coming  out.  Like,  really?  Whoa!  You  know,  lesbians  were  not   front  and  center  in  media,  and  if  they  were  it  was  foreign  film.  This  is  way  before  Ellen   [DeGeneres]11.  I  think  maybe  there  was  some  TV  show  with  a  gay  thing  and  that  got  cancelled.   You  know,  it  was  not  prevalent,  it  was  not  embraced.  It  was  not  normal.  [laughs]  In  culture.  It’s   true!   1:27:27   JG:  So  how  long  did  you  stay  in  Roanoke  and  part  of  First  Friday?   1:27:31   NK:  I—cause  we  figured  this  out.  So  I  came  in  ’81  and  I  left  in  ’86.  And  some  of  that  had  to  do   with  this  conflict,  because  I  just  sort  of  felt  like  things  were  falling  apart,  and  I  also  didn’t  realize   how  averse  I  am  to  conflict,  because  I’ve  been  working  on  that  these  last  few  years.  I  also  had  a   part  of  my  job  where  I  was  at  the  Roanoke  Times,  but  I  wasn’t  really  a  writer.  I  wanted  to  work   at  the  Science  Museum,  so  I  just  set  up  a  bunch  of  things  that  I  said,  “Well,  if  this  happens  I’ll  do   this,  if  this  happens  I’ll  do  this,  if  this  happens  I’ll  do  this.”  And  then  I  got  involved  with                                                                                                                           10  A  performance  troupe  focusing  on  lesbian  and  feminist  issues.    Actress,  comedian,  and  talk  show  host  who  came  out  in  1997,  making  her  the  first  out  lesbian   to  play  an  out  lesbian  character  on  television.   11   29   �somebody  who  used  to  go  to  the  retreats—there  was  this  whole,  huge  contingent  of  women   from  Durham  that  would  go  to  the  retreats.  So  I  became  friendly  with  them.  You  know,  for   years.  People  in  Durham  didn’t  even  realize  that  I  didn’t  live  there.  So  I  became  involved  with   her,  but  really  it  was  about  my  job—and  some  about  the  community—but  really  it  was  just   like—I  just  sort  of  felt  I  was…  just  kind  of,  you  know,  you  go  through  a  thing  and  you  go,  “Okay,   well  that’s  done.”  So  that’s  kind  of  what  it  was  for  me.   I  was  one  of  the  first  organizers  to  go—or  the  first  core  people  to  go—and  that  was  hard,  but   also  better  for  me.  [laughs]  Cause  then  they’re  like,  “How  do  we  put  this  together?”  But  the   retreat  still  kept,  I  mean  events  still  kept  going.  I  also  think  I  just  had  some  unfinished  business   with  some  of  that  other  relationship  part  that  we  had  talked  about  earlier.  It  was  like,  “Okay!   Time  to  go!”  So  I  left…  but  I  stayed  connected.  Actually,  some  of  the  people  that  had  letters   with  K  also  had  a  business  that  when  I  moved  to  Durham  I  worked  for  them.  So  I  was  still   connected  for  a  number  of  years,  but  I  lived  in  Durham.  But  now,  it’s  just  very  exciting  because   we  don’t  even  remember  why  we  were  mad  at  each  other.  [laughs]  Which  is  so  cool.   1:29:43   JG:  Are  you  figuring  it  out?   1:29:45   NK:  We’re  figuring  it  out,  but  what  is  so  wonderful  is  that  it  doesn’t  matter.  So  I’ve  had  some   apprehension  about  this  trip  with  some  of  the  people,  and  there’s  just  nothing  there,  so  it   doesn’t  matter.  But  I  held  onto  it.  So  for  me,  it’s  just  very  freeing.  It’s  just  very  fun.  I’m  just  so   appreciative  for  Kathryn  to  do  this  thing,  so  that  it  gives  us  all  an  excuse  to  see  each  other.   Because  the  reality  is  we  are  getting  older,  and  some  of  us  are  not  going  to  be  around,  and   that’s…  that’s  how  that  goes.     1:30:19   JG:  So  have  you  gained  any  insights  about  First  Friday  since  you  left  that  you  weren’t  aware  of   when  you  were  in  it?   1:30:34   NK:  I  didn’t  realize  how  freaking  awesome  it  was  until  I  left.  I  thought  I  was  going  to  a  more   vibrant  community,  and  I  did.  There  were  more  things  and  more  people,  but  there  was  never   the  same  sense  of  community.  It  was  much  more  political,  but  then  I  realized  I’m  actually  not   that  political.  I’m  much  more  interested  in  community  building  than  I  am—well  actually  I’ll  take   that  back.  As  of  November  8th  [the  election  of  Donald  Trump],  I’m  feeling  much  more  political.   But  I  haven’t  these  last  four  years.  It  really  was  such  a  magical  time.  In  some  ways  too  it  was   when  we  grew  up,  so  I  feel  like  this  is  my  chosen  family.  I  chose  them.  Well,  not  all  of  them.  So,   when  we  get  together—like  some  of  us,  we  haven’t  seen  each  other  in  thirty  years,  and  I  know   that  sounds  crazy,  but  then  it’s  like  nothing  has  passed.  So  that’s  what’s  so  amazing,  and  it’s  just     30   �really  fun.  And  for  me,  the  other  thing  that  I  learned  is  that  building  community  has  always   been  very  important  to  me.  Ever  since  I  was  in  third  grade.  And  it’s  only  when  I  start  putting   these  pieces  together  that  I  go,  “Oh!  That’s  who  I  am.”  So  for  me,  it’s  really  helped  me   understand  who  I  am.  And  I’m  just  clear  about  it.  And  I  don’t  care  that  I’m  out.  I’ve  got  kids,  my   parents  are  dead.  Guess  what?  I  don’t  care!  Bring  it  on!  So  I  don’t  feel  unsafe  anymore.  The   only  issues  I  have  now  is  being  a  lesbian  parent  and  the  legal  issues  I  have  with  my  kids  because   one’s  adopted,  one—and  benefits  for  my  kids.  So  that’s  what  gets  me  riled  up  now.  Because   often  with  kids,  our  legal  relationships  are  tentative  because  we  don’t  have  the  same  rights  that   other  people  do.   1:32:37   JG:  So  tell  me  a  little  bit  more  your  life  since  you  moved  away,  and  what  it’s  like  to  be  a  lesbian   parent  and  all  of  that.   1:32:45   NK:  So  I  moved  to  Durham,  and  I’ve  lived  there—I  lived  in  different  communities  within  the   Durham  area,  but  I  always  feel  like  I  lived  in  Durham  and  drove  a  long  way  home.  So  I  became   involved  in  the  community  there,  but  honestly,  it  was  more  just  a  larger  social  group.  I  was  not   that  politically  active  and  I  didn’t  get  involved  in  as  much  community  building.  And  then,  my   then-­‐partner  and  I  decided  to  raise  two  kids,  so  we  adopted  two  girls  from  China.  She  adopted   one,  I  adopted  another,  because  that  was  our  option  with  North  Carolina  law.  And  then,  I’m   just  like  a  parent,  you  know.  And  we  did  have  a  playgroup  where  all  the  girls  were  adopted   from  China.  There  were  eight  families,  three  of  the  families  were  lesbian  parents,  so  it’s  always   been  a  part  of  who  I  am.    We  chose  to  go  to  a  private  school,  a  Quaker  school,  so  that  we  could   be  an  acknowledged  family.  You  know,  and  sometimes  my  kids  don’t,  you  know,  weren’t  really   happy  that  we  were  lesbians.  It’s  like,  “I  just  want  to  be  normal,  and  I’m  adopted,  and  now  I’ve   got  lesbian  parents.”     And  in  working  there,  I  worked  a  number  of  jobs,  but  kind  of  always  in  the  same—I  worked  for   this  company  that  was  based  in  Roanoke,  and  then  I  had  my  own  business  for  a  number  of   years,  and  now  I  work  at  Duke  University,  and  I’m  a  meeting  and  event  planner  for  the  School   of  the  Environment—which  I  love.  I  get  to  work  with  these  amazing  people  who  want  to  go  out   and  do  these  great  things.  Both  of  my  girls  are  in  college.  My  former  partner  and  I  had  split  a   number  of  years  ago,  and  I  have  another  partner,  and  she  has  a  seventeen-­‐year-­‐old  daughter,   who’s  also  adopted.     1:34:40   NK:  So  I  just  feel  like  I  have  a  great  life.  I  love  my  life  now.  Part  of  it  is  understanding  who  I  am   and  [where]  I  came  from,  and  First  Friday  is  a  huge  part  of  that.  And  Blacksburg  and  coming  out   in  Virginia  Tech.  Not  so  much  my  degree,  although  I  was  in  communication  so  I  guess  so.  But  for   me,  that’s  when  I  grew  up.  And  that’s  when  I  realized  who  I  am.  And  I  remember,  I  got…  I  can’t     31   �remember.  It  was  right  after  I  came  out.  Things  were  really  hard.  I  was  going  through  some  sort   of  emotional  thing,  but  I  realized,  whatever  I’m  facing,  I’ve  already  just  done  the  hardest   thing—which  is  coming  out—so  whatever  it  is,  I  know  who  I  am.  I’m  not  going  to  lie  and   pretend.  I  mean,  I  did  pretend.  I  do  sometimes  conceal  for  safety,  or  because  I  choose  to,  or  I   don’t  want  to  be  in  the  line  at  the  grocery  store  and  my  daughter  goes,  “Oh  I  have  two  moms.”   I  don’t  necessarily  need  to  share  everything.  But  once  I  understood  who  I  am,  then  that  really   helped  me  be  the  person  that  I  am,  and  that  happened  in  coming  out  at  Virginia  Tech  and  being   with  First  Friday.  It’s  like  I  get  who  I  am.  I’ve  changed,  but  my  core  being  I  got  from  that   experience.   1:36:18   JG:  That’s  great.  What  do  you  think  are  the  most  pressing  LGBT  issues  today?   1:36:25   NK:  Well,  if  you  would  have  said  something  to  me  before  November  8th,  I  have  a  different   answer  now.  So  now,  you  know,  before  that,  it’s  about  gaining  legal  status  and  families  and   dealing  with  Duke  University  and  their  issues,  and  dealing  with  the  freaking  idiots  in  our  North   Carolina  state  legislature  and  HB212  and  all  of  those  issues.  I  have  the  incredible  opportunity  to   work  with  our  students  at  the  School  of  the  Environment  on  diversity  and  inclusion.  I  am   completely,  totally  out  lesbian,  and  I’ve  not  talked  about—I’ve  always  been  a  lesbian,  but  I’ve   never  talked  about  being  a  lesbian  in  my  place  where  I  work.  Like  saying,  “This  is  how  I  felt   when  I  came  out.  And  this  is  this.”  And  now,  I  can  do  that.  And  it’s  shocking.  It’s  like,  pinch  me!   But  now,  honestly,  I  think  we  have…  I  think  our  community  has  to  step  back  and  have  a  much   bigger  fight  about  everyone.  About  women.  About  people  of  color.  About  freaking  everything.   Like  I’m  happy,  and  I’m  a  proud  pussy  avenger  this  weekend,  but  this  is  much  more  than  being   a  lesbian.  This  is  like  being  a  human  on  the  planet.  So  that’s  my  call.  But  I  am  war-­‐tested.  I’m   not  messing  around.  And  I’m  not  gonna  not  pay  attention.  I  am  going  to  watch  what’s  going  on,   and  I’m  going  to  be  active.  And  I  am  going  to  not  necessarily  bang  my  head  against  the  wall,  but   I’m  also  just  interested  in  doing  things  in  my  community,  with  people  that  matter,  people  that   need  help.  Just  to  do  whatever  I  can  so  that  we  can  endure  this,  and  be  really  strong.  And  then   kick  some  ass  next  time.  [laughs]   1:38:28   JG:  Yeah.  [laughs]   1:38:29   NK:  That’s  kind  of  how  I’m  feeling.  So  yeah…                                                                                                                           12  House  Bill  2,  a  controversial  2016  North  Carolina  law  preventing  transgender  people  from   using  government-­‐run  bathrooms  that  correspond  with  their  gender  identity.     32   �1:38:33   JG:  Alright,  great.  Well  we’re  about  at  the  end  of  the  interview.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you   think  is  important  and  want  to  talk  about?   1:38:39   NK:  I  can’t  think  of  one  thing.  [laughs]   1:38:40   JG:  [laughs]  Okay,  perfect.  Well,  thank  you  so  much.   1:38:44   NK:  You’re  welcome.     [END]         33   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Nancy Kelly Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Nancy Kelly Interviewer: Julia Greider Interviewee: Nancy Kelly Date: 17 January 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 1:38:45 Transciption prepared by: Malinda Britt and Erin Hannon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 January 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nancy Kelly, Julia Greider, Malinda Britt, Erin Hannon Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KellyNancy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3467/BeranichKathryn_[compressed].mp3 e1eba8a7c06d3205110f770e07aea8f6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/3467/BeranichKathryn.pdf 283704b2bb85f5a772e455ee379427ce PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative     Interview  with  Kathryn  L.  Beranich   January  17,  2017     Interviewer:  Julia  Greider     Interviewee:  Kathryn  L.  Beranich     Date:  January  17,  2017   Location:  Roanoke  College  Library,  Salem,  VA   Duration:  97:03  total       Transcribed  by:  Kerri  Taylor       0:00=  Childhood  in  Milwaukee,  Wisconsin  and  schooling  (1953  –  early  1970s);  studying   telecasting  at  Milwaukee  Area  Technical  College  (1974-­‐1976)       1:44=  Finding  work  in  the  television  industry  (c.  1976)     3:40=  Moving  to  Roanoke  at  the  age  of  23  (c.  1977)  to  work  at  WSLS;  waitressing  at  Macado’s     5:23=  Looking  for  other  lesbian  women  in  Roanoke  (late  1970s)   6:36=  A  women’s  softball  league  in  Salem  (late  1970s);  dating  players  on  the  softball  team   11:47=  Taking  a  job  at  WDBJ-­‐7  (1980)   12:50=  Getting  into  a  car  accident  in  Bedford  County  (1981);  lesbian  gatherings  at  Community   Hospital  while  she  recovered   15:15=  The  early  foundations  of  First  Friday  (a  lesbian  organization)  in  1981   16:46=  Childhood  in  Milwaukee  (1950s  –  1960s)   18:30=  Attending  various  high  schools  (late  1960s  /  early  1970s),  including  Milwaukee   Independent  School;  exploring  a  heterosexual  relationship  (early  1970s)   22:56  =  Involvement  in  women’s  theater,  women’s  cooperatives,  and  the  feminist  movement  in   Milwaukee  (mid-­‐1970s);  coming  out  as  a  lesbian   25:46=  Reflections  on  her  family;  relationships  with  mom  and  dad;  her  Slovenian  heritage   27:47=  How  she  first  realized  she  was  a  lesbian;  coming  out  (early  1970s)   30:24=  Exposure  to  feminism     32:00=  Reflections  on  family  and  having  a  gay  aunt   37:45=  Coming  out  to  her  family  (1980s)   39:42=  The  lesbian  community  (or  lack  thereof)  in  Roanoke  in  the  late  1970s   43:10=  First  Friday:  origins;  the  Roanoke  Valley  Women’s  Retreats  (1980s);  publishing  Skip  Two   Periods;  internal  dynamics  and  leadership   49:58=  First  Friday  demographics  (race,  age)   51:10=  First  Friday  and  bisexual  women     52:28=  First  Friday  and  men     53:44=  First  Friday  activities:  Fabulous  February  Fling;  publishing  Skip  Two  Periods   57:38=  The  role  of  lesbian  history  (or  herstory)  for  Kathryn  and  First  Friday   59:28=  The  Roanoke  Valley  Women’s  Retreats  (1980s):  activities;  structure;  the  feeling  at  camp,   and  upon  leaving   1     �1:14:12=  Struggles  finding  a  location  to  hold  the  retreats   1:15:19=  Lesbian  Herstory  Archives     1:17:05=  Conflicts  within  First  Friday     1:18:40=  First  Friday  meeting  spaces   1:20:26=  The  effect  of  the  AIDS  crisis  on  Kathryn  (or  lack  thereof)   1:22:15=  Butch/femme  lesbian  culture;  lesbian  gender  expressions   1:27:47=  Leaving  Roanoke  and  First  Friday     1:29:55=  Kathryn’s  life  now           0:00   JG:  All  right,  this  is  Julia  Greider,  and  I  am  with  Kathryn  L.  Beranich,  in  the  Roanoke  College   Library  on  January  17th,  2017  for  her  oral  history.  So  to  start  out,  just  tell  me  a  little  bit  about   when  you  were  born  and  where  you  were  born,  and  a  little  bit  about  your  childhood.       0:21   KLB:  Okay,  I  was  born  on  Thanksgiving  Day  [laughter]  in  1953.  My  mother  was  thrilled  because   she  didn’t  have  to  eat  my  grandmother’s  dressing.  I’m  the  oldest  of  five  kids.  We  were  raised   kind  of  middle-­‐middle  class  to  lower-­‐middle  middle  class.  Raised  Catholic,  went  to  St.   Sebastian’s  grade  school.  And  a  couple  years  of  Catholic  high  school.  Ultimately  I  dropped  out   of  high  school  and  went  to  a  free  school  called  Milwaukee  Independent  School  which  was   formed  by  a  handful  of  students  from  around  the  Milwaukee  area  and  some  educators  from   the  University  of  Wisconsin.       So  I  went  there  for  the  last  year  and  a  half  of  my  schooling  and  they  had  something  worked  out   with  the  colleges  that  they  would  accept  our  graduates  since  we  really  weren’t  graduating,  we   were  just  leaving.  So  then  I  was  a  theatre  major  for  about  a  year  and  a  half,  and  realized,  “Okay,   I’m  not  gonna  be  an  actress,  this  isn’t  going  to  work  out,”  and  decided  I  wanted  to  go  into   television  production  to  help  change  the  way  women  were  portrayed  on  TV.  So  I  signed  up  for   the  telecasting  course  at  Milwaukee  Area  Technical  College  and  I  entered  there  in  1974.  It  was   a  two-­‐year  program.       I  graduated  with  honors  in  1976  from  the  telecasting  program  and  while  I  was  there  I  worked   for  the  public  station,  which  the  school  owned  on  a  part  time  basis,  as  well  as  the  local  NBC   affiliate.  And  every  job  that  I’ve  had,  starting  with  those  two,  I  was  the  first  woman  that  they   had  hired  in  that  position.  And  so  not  the  first  woman  in  the  universe,  or  the  world,  or  the   state,  or  the  country,  but  at  that  particular  institution.  And  so  it  really  set  the  stage  for  my   career  because  that  continued  throughout  my  career,  that  I  was  always  the  first  woman  that   they  had  hired  in  that  role,  so  I  was  constantly  proving  myself  and  always  having  to  be  150%   rather  than  just  100%.       So  I  graduated  in  1976,  and  I  took  a  trip  across  the  country  interviewing  at  different  stations   and  where  I  stopped  on  this  trip  was  based  on  where  I  knew  people,  so  I  could  stay  for  free.  I   2     �got  an  Amtrak  pass  and  took  the  train.  What  I  didn’t  know  at  the  time  was  that  nobody  needed   to  hire  somebody  as  green  as  I  was  for  a  director’s  job,  which  was  what  I  wanted,  and  they   didn’t  need  to  hire  someone  from  out  of  state  for  a  production  assistant  job,  which  I  didn’t   really  want  anyway.  So  needless  to  say  I  had  a  great  trip,  but  I  never  got  a  job  from  that.  So  next   I  sent  out  75  resumes  and  for  some  reason  I  decided  I  wanted  to  live  in  the  Southeast,  so  I  sent   out  75  resumes  and  got  a  call  from  a  station  in  Roanoke,  and  they  flew  me  down  for  an   interview.  It  was  WSLS,  and  I  was  offered  the  job.  And  so  I  went  back  to  Milwaukee  and  packed   up  my  stuff  and  moved  down  here.       I  was  23  years  old.  I  was  a  producer/director,  just  what  I  wanted  to  do.  And  there  was  one   particular  engineer  at  the  station  who  was  just  aghast  that  they  would  bring  a  woman  in,  so  he   took  a  week’s  vacation  my  first  week  on  the  job.  Then  he  came  back,  and  of  course  the  first   week,  I  just  observed,  I  didn’t  do  anything.  So,  my  first  week  on  the  job  was  his  week  back  from   vacation  and  that  was…  I  got  a  good  laugh  out  of  that  because  he  was  just  a  jerk  throughout  my   tenure  there.       So,  they  didn’t  pay  very  well.  I  remember  that  I  started  out  at  $7,200  a  year,  and  in  order  to   have  enough  money  to  live,  I  also  took  a  job  waitressing  at  a  new  restaurant  in  town  that  had   just  opened  called  Macado’s.  I  would  do  that,  I’d  work  the  lunches,  and  then  go  change  clothes,   and  go  in  and  direct  the  6  and  11  o’clock  newscasts  [laughter],  and  in  between  the  newscasts   we’d  do  other  programing,  so  there  would  be  church  shows  and  various  public  service  stuff.  I   did  some  commercials,  but  my  favorite  was  doing  these  church  shows  that  would  air  on   Sundays  and  they  would  always  send  their  youth  director  in  to  talk  to  me  and  try  and  get  me  to   come  to  their  church,  and  all  I  would  have  to  say  really  was  that  I  had  been  raised  Catholic  and   that  would  usually  shut  them  up  [laughter].  So  that  was  that.     I  was  also  “out”  as  a  lesbian,  not  out  to  the  world—I,  you  know,  was  a  practicing  lesbian  at  the   time,  and  had  a  really  hard  time  finding  women.  There  really  weren’t  any  bars  at  the  time,  and  I   remember  I  wrote  a  letter  to  a  friend  of  mine  in  Detroit  and  I  said,  the  only  thing  I  know  that  I   said  about  it  was  that,  “I  am  really  having  trouble  finding  women,  there’s  gotta  be  women   around  here.”  There  was  nothing  salacious  in  it,  there’s  nothing  about  sex,  I  mean  nothing.  That   was  basically  what  I  said.  Well,  because  I  was  23,  and  really  a  dope,  I  wrote  it  on  company   stationery  and  the  letter  came  back.  For  some  reason  my  friend  didn’t  get  it  and  the  letter  was   sent  back,  and  so  the  upper  office  people  opened  it.  The  woman  who  saw  was  appalled  and  she   left  it  in  the  women’s  bathroom  so  other  people  would  see  it,  and  I  found  this  out  years  later,  I   had  no  idea.  As  hard  as  I  was  trying  to  not  be  a  lesbian—well,  not  not  be  a  lesbian,  but  to  look   straight  [laughter]  and  act  straight,  and  not  have  that  come  up,  they  already  knew  which  kind   of  cracks  me  up.       6:35:   JG:  So  how  did  they  respond  to  that?       6:36:     3     �KLB:  Well,  because  I  didn’t  know  that  they  knew,  I  couldn’t  tell.  But  I  was  friends  with  a  reporter   there,  and  she  told  me  years  later,  that’s  how  I  found  out.  And  so,  even  though  we  were   friends,  every  now  and  then  she  was  probably  a  little  weird,  because  again,  this  was  ‘77.       So,  it  happened  sometime  between  ‘77  and  ’80  that  that  happened,  but  it  didn’t  really  affect   anything.  It  finally  came  to  me  that  oh,  if  I  want  to  meet  women,  [go  to  a]  softball  field.  So   that’s  what  I  did  is  I  found  a  women’s  softball  [league]  in  Roanoke  and  they  would  play  at  Salem   Field  [Oakey’s  Field],  and  I  went  and  I  would  take  pictures  and  la  la  la  and  next  thing  you  know  I   was  dating  the  pitcher  [laughter].  And  then  I  ultimately  met  my  best  friend  of  many  years,  and   she  was  dating  a  second  baseman  or  something,  I  don’t  know.  But  we  would  sit  on  the  hill  at   Salem  Field  and  just  get  drunk  and  cheer  and  it  was  a  great  time,  but  it  was  all  about  just  sitting   and  watching  sports  and  most  of  the  softball  players  were  totally  closeted,  I  mean  I  think  they   probably  all  were,  actually.  They  were  almost  flaunting  it  to  have  their  girlfriends  come  because   then  other  players  would  think,  “Oh,  ah,  she’s  a  dyke.”  You  know,  but  I  didn’t  care,  because   here  I  was  this  Yankee  coming  down  here  and  I  just  had  a  different  attitude  about  it,  you  know,   and  I  thought  everybody  should  be  out  and  as  happy  about  being  gay  as  I  was.     And  then  there  was  also  the  bowling  leagues,  which  I  would  sometimes  go  and  watch  them   bowl.  It  was  funny  because  I  was  talking  about  my  pitcher  girlfriend,  we’ll  call  her  Dee.  Dee   owned  a  1976  Cutlass  Supreme—black.  Loved  that  car,  she  loved  that  car,  and  it  was  the  last   year  that  they  were  allowed  to  make  the  big  cars,  so  this  was  a  big  prize  for  her.  We  had  very   little  in  common  and  she  was  older,  she  was  30,  and  [laughter]  nonetheless,  we  dated  for  a   while,  and  I  can  remember  one  day  we  were  in  the  car  and  she  took  my  hand  and  sang  along   with  the  radio,  “Three  Times  A  Lady,”  and  I  thought  “Oh  my  God,  what  has  happened  to  me?   Where  am  I?  I  ain’t  no  lady!”  [laughter].  It  was  pretty  funny.     Anyway,  that  relationship  didn’t  last,  so  then  I  started  dating  an  outfielder.  That  lasted  for  a   while,  you  know,  maybe  three  years.  Then,  I  got  a  crush  on  a  different  ball  player  and  she  was   from  Danville  and  I  had  gone  to  a  tournament  in  Danville  with  my  outfielder  and  I  remember   the  moment  when  I  saw  this  woman  and  it  was  like  the  world  stopped.  I  mean  I’ve  never   experienced  that  before  or  since,  where  everything  went  away  except  here  was  this  woman   running  in  from  the  field  all  dirty  and  dusty  and  stuff,  and  I  was  like,  “Who  is  that?!  I  want  to   date  someone  like  her!”  And  I  didn’t  know  how  to  make  that  happen.  She  was  in  Danville.  And   so  I  asked  around  and  found  out  who  she  was,  and  then  I  was  asked  to  do  a  show  for  Channel   10  about  the  Roanoke  Park  System.  So  I  did  my  research  and  stuff,  and  I  went  around  and  I   shot,  cause  at  that  point  I  was  a  one-­‐woman  band.  I  shot,  I  edited  it,  I  wrote  it,  I,  I  directed  it,   that  was  it.  Nobody  usually  was  with  me.  In  my  research,  I  discovered  that  there  was  a  very   beautiful  park  in  Danville  [laughter],  so  I  went  to  Danville  for  this  shoot  and  I  contacted  her  and   I  said,  “Oh,  I’m  gonna  be  in  Danville  on  this  shoot,  would  you  like  to  meet  for  lunch?”  Well,   because  I  was  making  $7,200  a  year,  well,  the  next  year  I  was  making  $7,600  a  year.  When  I  left   there,  I  was  making  $8,100.  I  mean  it  was—that’s  unbelievable—I  mean  cost  of  living  was  less,   but  still.  So  I  get  down  there,  we  meet  for  lunch  and  I  don’t  have  a  cent.  So  I  had  to  kind  of  cop   to  that,  and  she  was  stunned  because  she  was  a  teacher  and  she  didn’t  make  much  money   4     �either,  but  she  was  like  “Well,  okay.”  And  nothing  happened  after  that  basically…and  then...  I   don’t  know  how  this  goes…  we  finally  got  together.     But  because  of  that  show,  the  park  show,  the  chief  photographer  at  WDBJ-­‐7  saw  it  and  needed   a  photographer  and  they  were  like,  “Wow,  who  shot  that?  It’s  beautiful!”  Thank  you  very  much!   And  they  contacted  me  and  I  had  to  make  a  decision  if  I  wanted  to  move  over  to  the  “good   station,”  because  at  the  time  it  was  clear  that  WDJB-­‐7  was  the  best,  for  a  lesser  job,  or  stay  at   Channel  10,  and  I  took  the  job  and  went  over  there  and  it  was  really  fun  because  being  a  news   photographer,  you’re  in  the  thick  of  it.  There  was  a  big  murder  trial  for  example,  and  Keith   Humphry’s  picture  was  on  the  front  page  of  the  paper  talking  to,  trying  to  get  a  sound  bite  from   the  guy  and  you  can  see  my  arm  holding  the  camera  lens  and  I  was  like,  “That’s  me!”  [laughter]   It  was  great,  and  there  were  just  lots  of  cool  moments  during  that  time.       So  I  started  in  September  of  1980,  and  in  January  of  1981,  on  Super  Bowl  Sunday,  I  was  coming   back  from  a  story  at  Smith  Mountain  Lake  with  a  reporter,  and  had  a  really  bad  car  accident.  I   plowed  into  a  tree  and  took  down  a  mailbox.  It  was  on  a  country  road  in  Bedford  County.  It  was   pretty  bad.  The  reporter  braced  herself  on  the  windshield  and  her  arm  got  all  cut  up,  and  I  kind   of  jammed  on  the  floorboard  with  my  left  foot,  as  if  that  was  going  to  stop  anything  [laughter].   But,  my  hipbone  was  destroyed,  it  just  got  slammed  into  my  pelvis.     I  was  in  the  hospital  for  three  months,  and  during  that  time,  all  of  my  buddies  would  come  see   me,  so  it  would  be  like  this  big  lesbian  party  in  the  hospital  [laughter].  My  aunt,  who  was  a   lesbian,  and  my  favorite  person  in  the  world,  was  visiting  from  Arkansas  once  and  she  brought  a   case  of  champagne  in.  The  next  morning  the  nurses  come  in  and  I’m  like  hung  over  in  the  bed   and  there’s  just  empty  champagne  bottles  everywhere,  but  we  had  had  a  really  good  time.  My   sister  came  to  visit  from  Milwaukee,  so  she  and  my  friends  wheeled  me  out  of  the  hospital  into   Elmwood  Park,  and  Keith  Humphry  coming  up  again,  he  came  to  visit  on  his  motorcycle,  so  I’ve   got  pictures  of  me  lying  on  a  gurney  with  a  bunch  of  lesbians  [laughter]  ignoring  me  because   Keith  Humphry  was  there  talking  to  me  [laughter],  cause  we  weren’t  out.  So  it  was  really  hard   because  people  from  Channel  7  would  come  see  me,  you  know,  my  lesbian  friends  would  come   see  me.  It  was  like  the  worlds  would  collide  and  I  still  wasn’t  out,  but  it  became  apparent  to   people  who  got  it,  or  who  were  kind  of  smart,  but  still  it’s  like  1981.     So  after  that,  I  was  still  off  work  for  months  and  months  and  I  was  on  crutches  for  a  year  or   two.  During  that  three-­‐month  period,  I  had  three  or  four  surgeries.  It  was  a  whole  ordeal.  And   while  we  would  all  be  visiting  over  my  hospital  bed,  community  started  developing  a  lot—it  was   just  a  continuation  of  what  was  going  on  at  the  Taylor  House1  and  everything.  But  there  are   some  of  us  who  really  bonded  in  the  hospital  like  that.  That’s  not  where  the  genesis  of  First   Friday  was,  but  it  certainly  was  a  big  part  I  think,  like  [Kathleen]  Brehony  had  just  started   coming  to  Roanoke,  and  she  was  seeing  one  of  my  friends  and  they  would  come  visit  me  a  lot,   and  everything  just  started  to  coalesce  there  beyond  the  softball  field  or  Taylor  House,  or   whatever.  So,  when  I  got  out  of  there  was  May  of  ’81,  and  then  Barbara  [omission],  somebody                                                                                                               1  A  restaurant  in  Salem  where  First  Friday  would  often  gather.   5     �else,  she’s  cool  with  me  saying  this,  she  turned  fifty  in  November  and  that  was  really  one  of  our   first  big  events  was  Barbara’s  surprise  fiftieth  birthday  party,  and  that’s  that.  [laughter]     16:30   JG:  So  I’m  just  gonna  backtrack  a  little  bit.     16:32     KLB:  Oh  okay.     16:33   JG:  Tell  me  a  little  bit  more  about  growing  up  and  what  was  your  relationship  like  with  your   family?  And  how  did  you  feel  about  school  and  how  did  you  fit  in?  Stuff  like  that.       16:46   KLB:  Well,  I  wasn’t  part  of  the…  what  I  consider  the  in-­‐group  in  grade  school  because  I  lived  on   one  side  of  55th  Street  and  they  all  lived  on  the  other  side  of  it,  so  they  were  all  like  on  50th   Street.  There  was  just  this  neighborhood  that  a  lot  of  the  girls  lived  in  and  they  were  all  really   good  friends,  so  it  was  not  that  they  necessarily  excluded  me,  but  I  just  wasn’t  proximity-­‐wise   part  of  that.  So  I  had  a  best  friend  who  lived  near  me  and  I  absolutely  adored  her.  And  she   would  do  things  like  if  I  had  a  crush  on  a  boy,  she  would  get  him  to  like  her.  She  was  horrible,   she  was  just  horrible,  but  I  was  blinded.  There  was  nothing  sexual  about  our  friendship,  or   anything  like  that,  and  her  parents  actually  couldn’t  stand  me  because  her  dad  was  the   president  of  the  John  Birch  Society  in  Milwaukee  and,  you  know,  I  was  not  of  the  same   economic  class  as  they  were,  and  I  don’t  know,  whatever.     So,  when  it  came  time  for  high  school  we  went  to  different  high  schools,  but  a  lot  of  the  group   of  50th  Street  girls  ended  up  going  to  Divine  Savior,  where  I  was  too,  and  I  don’t  know,  it  was   fun.  I  was  class  president.  Not  class  president,  home  room  president  sophomore  year  and  you   know,  I  was  doing  okay,  but  I  was  not,  you  know,  one  of  the  main  people.  It  was  an  all-­‐girls   school.  I  also  was  on  financial  aid,  so  I  had  to  do  things  like  clean  the  blackboards,  the  erasers   and  stuff,  so  I  couldn’t  take  the  school  bus,  so  I  would  have  to  take  the  city  bus.  So  that  kind  of   kept  me  separate  from  people,  too.  I  mean  I  had  friends,  but  it  wasn’t…  high  school  was  not   that  great  for  me.       Well  after  the  two  years—I  think  it  probably  had  a  lot  to  do  with  finances,  but  I’m  not   positive—but  anyway,  I  left  Divine  Savior  and  was  going  to  go  to  a  public  school,  but  I  didn’t   want  to  go  to  the  public  school  that  I  was  supposed  to  go  to  cause  it  was  kind  of  tougher,  you   know,  greasers  and  stuff.  So  there  was  Wauwatosa  East  which  was  closer  to  me,  but  I  lived  on   59th  Street  and  60th  Street  was  the  deadline,  was  the  cutoff.  But,  my  original  best  friend  was   going  there,  so  I  totally  wanted  to  go  there.  So  I  gave  a  fake  address,  a  woman  in  our  parish,   who  was  obese,  like  literally  obese,  and  so  I  would  have  to  clean  her  kitchen  and  do  whatever   she  told  me  to  do  in  order  to  use  her  address.  So  after  a  semester  of  doing  that,  and  it  was  just   horrid,  a  postal  deliverer  saw  my  name  on  a  piece  of  mail  to  this  woman’s  address  and  said,   “Wait  a  minute,  she  doesn’t  live  here,”  and  sent  it  back,  and  that  clued  the  school  in,  so  I  was   6     �going  to  get  kicked  out  anyway,  but  I  left  to  go  to  Milwaukee  Independent  School.  And  that  was   just  a  bunch  of  hippies.  I  mean,  we  were  located  in  a  number  of  places,  but  the  first  one  was  an   old  house,  in  sort  of  an  industrial  area,  and  we  were  fixing  the  house  up.  So  we  were  scraping   paint  and  doing  stuff  to  make  it  habitable  and  the  school  was  such  that  if  I,  say,  wanted  to  take   Spanish,  there  was  rolodex  of  people  who  had  volunteered  to  teach  things  so  if  I  was  looking   for  someone  to  teach  Spanish,  I  would  see  if  anybody  else  wanted  to  learn  it  and  then  we   would  set  up  a  time.  So  it  was,  of  the  many  things  I  didn’t  learn,  the  things  that  I  did  learn  at   that  school  were  self-­‐reliance  and  how  to  make  things  happen  for  yourself.       So  the  school  moved  around  a  little  bit  and  we  ended  up  close  to  downtown  Milwaukee  and  for   theatre  class  we  called  somebody  who  was  at  the  Milwaukee  Repertory  Theatre,  and  a  young   actress  who  was  there  said,  “Oh,  I’ll  teach  acting,”  and  she  came  and  she  taught  us  and  a  few   years  later  I  was  watching  television  and  I  saw  her  on  there  on  a  soap  opera  and  she  went  on  to   a  very  illustrious  career.  Judith  Light  is  her  name.  She’s  on  Transparent  now.  She’s  had  a  huge   career,  and  so  that  was  pretty  cool.  I  ran  into  her  once  in  L.A.  [Los  Angeles]  and  introduced   myself  and  said,  “You  probably  don’t  remember  me,  but  you’re  probably  going  to  remember   this:  I  went  to  M.I.S  and  you  taught  theatre  there,”  and  she  lit  up  and  her  husband  said,  “Oh  my   gosh!  She’s  told  me  all  about  this!”  and  it  was  a  real  cool  moment.  Anyway,  I’m  skipping  ahead   [laughter].  [At]  that  high  school  I  wanted  to  continue  in  theatre  and  so  we  could  take  classes  at   the  university,  and  so  I  did  that,  and  met  a  guy  named  Wiley.  I  never  really  had  any  boyfriends,   or  dated  any  guys,  and  he  was  a  freshman  and  I  kind  of  got  in  with  him  and  his  friends.  So  he   and  I  dated  for  a  while,  but  because  I  was  Catholic  and  frankly  not  into  intercourse  I  don’t   think—I  didn’t  know  for  sure,  you  know,  I  wouldn’t  go  all  the  way,  and  so  he  turned  to  other   people  for  that  [laughter],  and  so  the  relationship  ended.  But  it  was  kind  of  on  and  off  for  two   or  three  years.       By  that  point  I  was  in  college  and  I  was  a  member  of  a  women’s  theatre  group,  and  I  was  also   working  with  some  feminists  in  Milwaukee  and  we  had  a  newsletter  called  Amazon.  It  was   great.  And  it  was  clear  that  I  was  a  lesbian,  I  mean,  in  my  head.  I  just  hadn’t  made  that  happen   yet  [laughter].  I  was  real  involved  with  the  political  movement  at  the  time,  and  so  there  was  a   lot  [of  things],  like  there  was  the  food  co-­‐op  and  the  babysitting  co-­‐op  and  the  children’s  co-­‐op.   In  the  children’s  co-­‐op  were  all  these  young  families  that  provided  day  care  for  each  other  and   they  had  a  whole  thing  worked  out.  Well,  I  remember  I  went  to  one  of  their  picnics  and  I  was   like  the  only  one  there  who  wasn’t  one  of  the  parents  and  it  was  because  the  two  women  who   did  Amazon  had  kids,  and  anyways,  it  was  all  just  one  big  happy  little  political  group.     Eventually  I  came  out  during  that  period  and  then  started  going  to  school  for  telecasting.  At   that  point  I  was  living  on  Newhall  [St.],  that’s  all  you’d  have  to  say  was  “Newhall”  because  we   had  this  very  notorious  lesbian  upper  flat.  I  came  out  in  the  second  wave  of  it.  I  took  over  a   bedroom  of  a  woman  who  was  moving  to  San  Francisco,  and  she  eventually  had  a  baby  with   the  turkey  baster;  she  was  one  of  the  original  lesbian  moms  via  turkey  baster  [laughter].  And   that  was  in  1976,  so  that  was  pretty  cool.  But  anyways,  I  moved  into  Newhall  and  we  just  had   parties,  I  mean  it  was  what  you  do  in  college.       7     �25:08   JG:  So  this  was  like  a  dorm?  Or…?     25:11   KLB:  No,  no.  It  was,  there  was  a  street,  Newhall  Street,  and  this  was  just  a  duplex.       25:17   JG:  Okay.       25:18   KLB:  So  we  lived  upstairs  and  just,  you  know,  a  lot  of  pot  smoking,  you  know,  drinking.  Just   being  happy.  Now,  I  was  really  the  only  student  there  though.  So  they’d  all  be  partying  and  I’d   be  in  my  room  studying  because  I  was  determined  that  I  was  gonna  get  the  heck  out  of   Milwaukee  and  I  was  gonna  be  a  producer/director.  And  I  did  it  [laughter].  I  mean,  yeah.  And   then  I  was  here.     You  asked  me  about  my  family…  [pause]…  I  had  a  really  beautiful  mother.  All  she  wanted  was  to   be  a  mother,  but  she  didn’t  really  have  mothering  skills.  So  she  had  five  kids,  and  I  always  felt   like  we  were  accessories.  I  was  never  the  daughter  she  wanted.  I  mean  I  was  not  into  wearing  a   lot  of  makeup,  or  you  know,  I  didn’t  shave  my  armpits  [laughter]  and  she  was  appalled   [laughter].  Yeah,  so  we  were  not  that  close,  for  sure.  I  think  I  was  closer  to  my  dad.  We’re  both   Sagittarians  and  I  just  was  always  closer  to  him.  But  not  like  he’d  show  me  how  to  fix  a  car.  I   could  care  less!  You  know,  whereas  I  do  know  how  to  sew  and  stuff  from  my  mom.     I’m  Slovenian  and  the  Slovenians  weren’t  very  active  in  Milwaukee,  but  the  Croatians  were.  My   mother  got  us,  my  sister  and  I,  into  the  American  Croatian  Silver  Strings  Tamburitza  Orchestra.   And  so  from  7th  grade  through  high  school  I  played  this  Yugoslavian  instrument  and  wore  the   costumes  and  sang  the  songs  and  did  the  dances  and  we  performed  all  over.  Then  we  were  also   in  Plave  Jadran,  a  Croatian  dance  group,  and  my  mother  was  in  that  too.  So  despite  the  fact  that   she  was  doing  it  too,  I  was  involved  [laughter].  It  was  really  a  lot  of  fun  actually.  I  really  respect   cultures  that  are  trying  to  continue  their  cultural  backgrounds  while  in  this  country,  or   elsewhere  I  guess.       27:40   JG:  So  when  and  how  did  you  first  realize  you  were  a  lesbian?       27:47   KLB:  You  know,  I  came  out  as  a  lesbian  feminist.  I  mean,  my  feminism  had  a  lot  to  do  with  when   I  came  out,  I  think.  I  think  I  always  would  have  come  out,  but  I  was  just  more  aware  of  it  and   not  as  afraid  of  it  as  when  I  was  in  high  school  before  I  was  really  involved  with  feminism,  like   when  I  was  15  and  16.  I  had  summer  jobs  in  Illinois  and  in  the  suburbs  as  a  mother’s  helper  and   so  I  would  watch  rich  people’s  kids  and  live  there  and  stuff,  and  I  can  remember  going  to,  it’s   called  Ravinia,  and  it’s  like  Wolf  Trap  or  something,  but  it’s  in  the  Chicago  area,  to  see  Frank   Zappa  and  the  Mothers  of  Invention  and  [laughter]  this  woman  came  up  to  me  and  she  had  a   8     �rainbow  pin  on  or  something  and  asked  me  for  a  light,  and  I  was  mortified.  So  at  15  and  16,  I   was  not  at  all  comfortable  really  with  any  sexuality.  I  wasn’t  a  sexual  being  at  all,  but  that   scared  me.  On  the  other  hand,  when  I’d  be  babysitting  in  Milwaukee  for  families,  I  would,  as   soon  as  the  kids  were  in  bed,  I’d  go  looking  for  the  Playboys  [magazine].  I  didn’t  know  why  I   liked  looking  at  them  [laughter]  but  they  just  made  me  feel  good.  It  took  me  years  to  put  that   all  together.     Yeah,  so  it  really  was  when  I  was  working  on  Amazon  and  in  the  Milwaukee  Women’s  Theatre   Group  where  it  was,  you  know,  I  had  a  crush  on  one  of  the  other  members,  but  she  was  straight   and  stuff.  There  was  a  woman  in  Milwaukee  who  kind  of  as  her  duty,  she  felt  it  was  her  duty,   she  would  bring  out  young  lesbians  who  needed  to  be  brought  out  and  I  was  one  notch  on  her   belt.  She  was  seeing  somebody  else  [laughter],  and  I  knew  that  and  I  knew  that  it  wasn’t  going   to  go  anywhere,  but  I  was  so  in  love  with  her  at  the  time.  And  it  wasn’t  a  very  happy   experience.  But,  at  least  that  was  over  with,  you  know.  I  don’t  know  what  year  that  was.  I  think   I  was  about  20,  so  maybe  ’73,  ’72  or  ’73…  I  don’t  know.       30:21   JG:  So  how  did  you  first  get  exposed  to  feminism  then?     30:24   KLB:  Oh,  well,  it  was  just  happening  around  me,  you  know?  At  Milwaukee  Independent  School   we  would  go  to  protests  against  the  war,  women’s  lib[eration],  the  gay  rights  movement  was   starting  to  happen,  the  Black  Power  movement.  It  was  everywhere.  I  just  was  always  a  women’s   libber,  you  know?  I  mean  in  high  school  I  had  the  pin  with  the  fist,  and  the  woman’s  [symbol]   with  the…  and  it  just  spoke  to  me.  Again,  it  wasn’t  in  reaction  to  my  mom,  but  she  was  high   femme,  and  I  wasn’t,  and  I  was  sort  of  repulsed  by  it  and  didn’t  want  to  be  anything  like  her.   And  even  when  she  would  come  to  visit  me  in  Roanoke  and  a  bunch  of  us  would  be  out  to  eat,   and  she  would  be  flirting  with  the  waiters…  Oh  God,  it’s  just  like,  stop  it!  [laughter]  But  she   needed  that  I  guess.  So  then  I  came  out  and  had  a  couple  of  little  bitty  relationships  in   Milwaukee,  maybe  because  I  knew  that  I  was  getting  out  of  there,  I  don’t  know  [laughter].  But,   I  mean  my  first  real  long-­‐term  relationship  was  with  the  Danville  softball  player  and  that  lasted   nine  years.       32:00   JG:  Wow.  So,  I  think  you  mentioned  that  your  aunt  was  gay?     32:02   KLB:  Yeah,  yeah!     32:04   JG:  So  how  did  that  affect  you?     32:05   9     �KLB:  Well  that  was  interesting,  because  of  who  she  was,  she  was  an  artist  and  she  was   bohemian.  My  mother’s  family  was  not  your  typical  family,  like  the  father  left  when  my  mom   was  three,  so  she  was  told  her  father  had  died  when  she  was  three.  Her  mother  was  struggling;   she  had  three  kids,  and  my  mom  was  the  youngest,  so  she  had  the  kids  in  a  home  for  children.   She  got  a  job  there  doing  laundry,  and  so  my  mother  would  go  down  and  visit  her  in  the  laundry   room,  sneak  down  and  visit  her  so  she  could  spend  time  with  her  mother.  And  when  my  mom   was  14,  my  grandmother  died.  Then  my  mother  went  and  lived  with  a  friend  of  hers  and   finished  high  school,  and  then  met  my  dad.  This  was  in  Fort  Worth,  Texas,  and  my  dad  was  in   the  Air  Force  down  there.  So  they  met  and  got  married  when  she  was  barely  18.  She  was  19   when  she  had  me.  I  mean,  she  didn’t  know  what  the  heck  she  was  doing,  and  she  was  un-­‐ mothered.  So  I  understand  it  on  an  intellectual  level,  but  still,  emotionally  it’s  hard.       Oh,  so  my  aunt.  I  can  remember  when  we  were  growing  up  one  of  my  brothers  or  sisters  called   another  one  “queer”  and  none  of  us  knew  what  that  meant,  but  my  mother  totally   overreacted,  she  said,  “We  do  not  use  that  word  in  this  house!  That  is  not  a  word  we  use!”   Okay…  well,  again,  it  took  me  years  to  figure  it  out,  but  she  was  kind  of  protecting  her  older   sister,  who  I  met  I  think  for  the  first  time  when  I  was  about  five,  and,  oh  God  I  just  loved  her!   And  then  didn’t  see  her  again  until  I  was  maybe  in  high  school.       When  I  was  13  we  took  a  train  trip—she  lived  in  Denver  and  we  took  a  train  out  there,  the   whole  family.  And  saw  her  there,  and  then  later  I  visited  her  a  couple  of  times,  and  one  of  those   times  I  must  have  been  right  out  of  high  school,  or  something,  but  I  came  to  visit  her  and  they   had  tickets  to  go  see  Bette  Midler  at  Red  Rocks,  which  was  this,  it’s  this  great  outdoor   amphitheater  in  Colorado.  It’s  just  gorgeous.  And  they  had  an  extra  ticket,  and  I  got  to  go,  so   everybody  was  gathered  at  my  aunt’s  house.  Two  of  the  people  who  were  there  was  a  woman   about  my  age,  so  like  a  teenager,  and  then  this  older  woman  who  was  her  “coach”  [laughter].   And  I  started  putting  it  together  then,  and  I  wasn’t  out  yet,  but  I  was  older  now  and  kind  of   getting  it.  And  we  all  went  to  this  concert  and  it  was  just  gay  people,  I  mean  it  was  just  this   huge  gay  concert  and  it  was  so  much  fun,  but  I  was  just  exposed  to  all  these  gay  men  and  you   know,  I  was  with  a  bunch  of  dykes  and  it  was  just  great,  but  never  talked  about.  And  so  that   was  when  I  finally  started  putting  it  together  that  my  aunt  was  a  lesbian,  and  so  when  I  did   come  out  I  remember  writing  her  a  letter  and  saying,  “Oh,  la  la  la,  this  and  that,  I’m  doing  this,   I’m  doing  that,  oh  and  I  came  out  and  blah  blah  blah.”  And  I  just  like  buried  it,  buried  the  lead.   Totally.  We  laughed  about  it  since  [laughter].       She  passed  away  a  couple  years  ago,  but  she  was  something  else.  She  didn’t  identify…  it  was   hard  for  her  to  say  “lesbian”  or  anything  because  she  was  raised  in  Texas  and  she  went  to  some   Christian  school  college.  I  can’t  remember  the  name  of  it,  and  it  was  just  not  something  that   she  was  comfortable  with  talking  about.  Nor  did  she  really  identify  with  feminism.  So  that  just   killed  me.  I  just  wanted  her—but  because  she  was  just  this  woman  who  took  care  of  herself,   she  had  her  own  business,  she  was  a  florist  and  an  artist,  and  then  she  moved  to  Eureka   Springs,  Arkansas,  which  has  this  big  gay  community  now,  and  lived  there  from  the  mid  ‘70s   until  she  died.  And  it  was  great  because  it  was  a  lot  of  Vietnam  War  vets  growing  pot,  and  other   artists,  and  people  fixing  up  this  little  town  that  is  so  picturesque,  and  it’s  just  beautiful.  But   10     �somewhere  during  that,  I  had  that  memory  of  my  mom  saying  that  about  “queer”  and  realized,   “God,  she  was  protecting  her  sister,”  who  was  not  a  part  of  lives,  really.  I  mean,  like  I  said   growing  up,  I  saw  her  maybe  three  times,  because  family  wasn’t  important  to  her  because  she   didn’t  have  family,  and  I’m  sure  she  created  her  own  family,  like  we  did  in  Roanoke.  But,  yeah,   it  was  not  part  of  what  they  knew  how  to  do  or  be.  She  didn’t  care  that  much  about  her  sister   or  her  sister’s  kids.     37:45   JG:  So  do  you  think  that  helped  when  you  came  out  to  your  mother  and  your  family?     37:50   KLB:  Well  it  was  funny,  cause  when  I  came  out  to  them,  I  had  lived  in  Roanoke  for  a  while  and   another  friend  of  mine  and  I  decided  that  we  were  both  going  to  come  out  to  our  parents  while   we  went  home  for  Christmas.  I  don’t  remember  what  year  it  was,  but  it  was  after  my  accident,   I’m  pretty  sure.  And  so  Christmas  came  and  went.  I  remember  I  went  into  the  kitchen  and  my   mom  and  dad  were  in  there,  and  I  said,  “There’s  something  I  want  to  talk  to  you  about,”  and   they  said,  “Okay.”  And  my  mother  was  stirring  some  batter,  which  it’s  not  like  she  was  Betty   Crocker  or  anything,  but  at  that  particular  time,  she  was  making  something,  and  I  said,  “I  just   want  you  know  I’m  gay!”  [Laughter,  imitating  sobbing]  And  I  just  started  sobbing  and  I  thought,   “What  is  the  problem  here?”  because  I  wasn’t  sorry.  I  was  happy  about  it,  but  I  was  so  scared   and  everything.  My  mom  just  started  stirring  faster  and  leaned  in  a  little  bit.  My  father  said,   “We  knew.”  I  was  like,  “Oh!”  [laughter]  Well  then  I  stayed  for  a  couple  more  days.  It  was  pretty   funny.  But  that  was  sort  of  the  end  of  it.  Then  I  would  always  bring  my  girlfriends  home  and   stuff  like  that,  but  it  was  sort  of  a  non-­‐event,  and  I  felt  like  I  could  come  out  to  them  at  that   point  because  if  they  disowned  me  or  if  it  just  went  south,  I  had  a  family  here.  And  so  I  was  safe   and  I  didn’t  need  them  anymore  because  I  had  my  own  [family],  First  Friday.         39:42   JG:  So  tell  me  more  about  the  cultural  difference  you  felt  when  you  came  here,  like  you   mentioned  that  everyone  was  really  closeted  and  that  seemed  sort  of  different  to  you?     39:44   KLB:  Yeah,  nobody  talked  about  it.  Nobody  talked—like  the  softball  players—nobody  talked   about  being  together  or  anything.  I  mean  you  knew  that  people  were  paired  up,  but  it  was  so   hidden.  Especially  if  it  was  two  members  of  the  same  team  or  something.  And  I  was  all  like,   “Hey!  This  is  great,  we’re  lesbians,  we’re  the  best!  We’re  superior.”  But  that  wasn’t  how  people   felt,  and  really  my  best  friend,  who  we’ll  call  ‘A,’  she  and  I  had  that  in  common.  I  don’t  know  if   she  would  have  called  herself  a  feminist  at  that  point,  but  she  certainly  was.  We  were  happy   with  who  we  were,  you  know?  Now,  I  couldn’t  come  out  at  work.  I  still  couldn’t  do  that  because   I  was  so  afraid  that  I  would  be  fired.  You  know,  that  would  be  the  worst  possible  thing  to   happen,  would  be  for  me  to  lose  my  job,  and  that  was  sort  of  the  only  reason  that  I  could  come   up  with  that  I  could  lose  my  job.       11     �So,  yeah,  the  cultural  difference,  there  was  not  just  a  group  of  lesbians  who  did  other  things,  it   was  all—I  later  heard  that  there  were  some  professors  and  stuff  at  Hollins  [College]  or   wherever  and  they  would  get  together,  but  I  had  no  access  to  those  people.  So,  the  only  people   that  I  knew  were  these  softball  players,  were  all  these  jocks.  They  weren’t  feminist,  they   weren’t  comfortable  with  themselves,  and  yet  they  were  working  jobs.  It  was  a  time  when   women  were  entering  the  work  field,  and  so  like  there  was  a  police  officer.  I  don’t  know  what   all  these  other  people  did,  a  lot  of  people  just  had  blue  collar  jobs.  But  they  had  no  affiliation  or   affinity  to  women’s  liberation,  or  the  feminist  movement.       When  First  Friday  started  getting  together  everybody  was  feminist,  and  it  wasn’t  something   that  we  talked  about  because  First  Friday  wasn’t  a  political  organization  at  all,  and  that  was   okay,  because  I  think  its  mere  existence  was  political.  That’s  the  cultural  difference,  and  also   again  the  Yankee  thing  which  didn’t  really  mean  much  to  me,  and  then  I  would  hear  things  like   “The  War  of  Northern  Aggression”  and  I’m  like,  “My  God,  these  people  are  still  fighting  the  Civil   War,”  and  for  me  it  was  like  a  paragraph  in  my  history  book  in  5th  grade;  it  meant  nothing  to   me.  So  there  were  those  kind  of  cultural  differences.  And  I  was  loud  and  I  didn’t  behave  the   way  a  lot  of  Southerners  felt  women  should  be.  I  wore  dresses,  and  I  loved  just  dressing  up  for   work,  and  doing  my  thing.       43:10     JG:  All  right,  so  tell  me  about  the  beginning  of  First  Friday.       43:15   KLB:  Well…  I  get  really  confused  about  the  very  beginning  of  it  because  I  was  thinking  that   Taylor  House  was  after  we’d  been  doing  stuff  [laughter],  but  it  wasn’t.  So  really  it  was  around  at   the  Taylor  House  where  we  were  getting  together  once  a  month,  or  more  often,  but  definitely   the  first  Friday  of  every  month.  Sometimes  women  would  play  music.  It  mostly  was  just  a  party,   you  know,  there  was  always  a  lot  of  drinking  going  on  too.  When  we  had  Barbara’s  50th   birthday  party  and  pulled  it  off,  I  mean  it  was  just,  it  was  a  big  event.  We  got  people  from  all   over  the  state  because  Barbara  was  so  old  she  knew  so  many  people,  and  so  we  just  filled  [the   place].  People  came  from  Richmond  and  Norfolk  and  probably  the  Outer  Banks  and  Lynchburg.   Anyway,  all  came,  everybody  dressed  up.  You  didn’t  have  to  twist  anybody’s  arms  or  anything.   We  had  fancy  invitations  for  it.  We  even  had  a  fake  birthday  party  for  her  the  day  before   [laughter]  so  she  wouldn’t  know  that  we  were  having  this  big  surprise  party  for  her.       Once  we  pulled  this  off  with  aplomb,  we  thought,  “Hey,  what  else  can  we  do?”  So  we  would   just  have  these  ideas,  and  somebody  had  an  idea  about  the  retreat,  and  it  was  like,     “Yeah,  that  would  be  fun!”  And  everybody  had  different  skills  that  they  brought  to  the  table.  It   all  just  kind  of  worked  together,  whether  it  was  theatrics,  or  cooking,  or  electrician,  or  directing   people  where  to  park.  You  know,  I  mean  everybody  took  on  different  roles.  It  was  a  ton  of   work.  Like  I  don’t  remember  the  retreats  much  because  I  was  working  the  whole  time,  and  I   think  you’d  hear  that  from  a  lot  of  the  organizers,  and  that’s  okay  because  this  is  what  we   wanted  to  do.  We  pulled  off  that  first  one  and  it  was  little  and  sweet,  and,  “Boy,  let’s  do  this   again,”  and  it  just  grew  and  grew.  Word  of  mouth…  we  also  sent  out  flyers  and  stuff  and  before   12     �Skip  Two  Periods  it  was  pretty  much  just  a  mailing  list  where  we  would  send  the  retreat  flyers  to   people,  but  then  we  started  compiling  this  pretty  big  mailing  list  and  decided,  “We  need  a   newsletter!”  And  so  we  did  a  newsletter!  And  again,  everybody  contributed  what  they  could,   from  doing  research  to  laying  the  paper  out,  because  it  was  way  before  computer  stuff,   everything  was  done  with  an  Exacto  knife  and  wax  and  lining  it  up  and  all  that.  It  was  pretty   [laughter]  primitive  you  could  say,  but  we  did  it  and  they  looked  good  and  [omits  name]  came   up  with  a  masthead  that  was  beautiful,  and  all  the  little  drawings  in  it.  She  added  so  much  to   the  look  of  First  Friday  and  how  we  presented  ourselves  to  the  world,  and  it  was  really   important  to  us  that  we  looked  professional  because  we  were.     We  were  very  careful  about  all  the  details,  and  we  always  went  out  of  our  way  when  we  would   produce  concerts  or  theatre  or  whatever  to  treat  the  artist  as  best  as  we  possibly  could.  At  that   time  there  were  a  lot  of  musicians  traveling  around  the  country  doing  women’s  concerts  and   they  would  be  thrown,  like,  “Okay,  well  there’s  a  futon  over  there,  and  around  the  corner  is  a   restaurant,”  you  know,  not  treated  like  they  were  stars,  and  we  treated  them  like  they  were   stars.  We  were  celebrating  them  and  ourselves  and  our  culture.       Yeah,  how  did  First  Friday  start?  It  was  conversations  and,  “Wouldn’t  it  be  fun  if…,”  and  then   we  just  did  it,  you  know?  And  we  would  have  meetings  throughout  the  week  probably,  but   definitely  once  a  week,  on  people’s  porches  and  living  rooms  and  stuff,  and  there  wasn’t  a  lot   of  fighting  or  jacking  for  position  or  power  plays,  which  was  really  cool.  I  mean  there  were  some   bossy  people  in  it  and  I  would  be  one  of  them,  and  Nancy  would  be  another,  and  Brehony,  I   mean,  no,  Brehony’s  not  bossy.  But  she’s  real  smart  and  knows  how  to  deliver  a  message  well,   whereas  if  I  disagreed  with  something  I  would  be  on  my  feet  and  “ah!”  But  there  wasn’t  a  lot  of   that  going  on.     There  were  a  couple  of  things,  and  I  think  that  I  was  a  big  part  of  one  of  the  issues  that  in  the   moment  didn’t  seem  that  big  of  a  deal,  but  came  back  to  haunt  us  later.  I  can  hear  myself   saying  it,  and  that  was  in  that  retreat  flyer,  we  were  trying  to  decide  about  kids  being  there  and   stuff,  and  sometimes  people  wanted  to  bring  their  pets  and  stuff  like  that,  so  anyway  I’m  like,   “No  kids.  No  dogs.”  And  that’s  what  it  said,  I  think  [laughter].  It  was  “Sorry,  no  children,  no   pets,”  or  something,  but  it  was  like  people  were  mad  about  that,  like  mothers.  Well,  there   weren’t  that  many  lesbian  moms  that  we  knew  and  like,  who  knew  that  lesbians  had  kids?   [laughter]  I  mean  it  was  just  wrong.  I  was  absolutely  wrong  and  it  never  occurred  to  me  and  I   don’t  like  dogs,  so  [laughter]  I  don’t  take  that  back,  but  I’ll  take  the  kids  back!  Yeah,  so  other   than  that,  pretty  much  at  least  in  the  first  bunch  of  years,  everything  just  worked  out  the  way  it   was  supposed  to  and  we  were  all  in  it  together  and  we  were  all  exhausted  and  we  all  reveled  in   its  success.  And  I  think  that  it  made  money  sometimes,  and  we  didn’t  set  out  to  make  money,   but  we  always  just  put  it  back  into  the  next  event.       49:58   JG:  How  would  you  describe  the  demographics  of  the  group?       50:01   13     �KLB:  Uh  white,  white,  and  white.  I  could  name  the  number  of  black  women,  African  American   women,  that  I  can  remember  here,  and  I’m  sure  that  they  probably  had  their  own  social  things   that  they  did  because  there  had  to  have  been  more  black  lesbians,  I’m  sure.  But,  you  know,   none  of  them  were  really  involved  in  the  organizing,  like  socially.  I  just  saw  some  pictures  from   Barbara’s  birthday  party  and  I  was  like,  “Oh  I  forgot  about  her!”  and  then  she  was  with  another   woman  who  looked  a  little  familiar,  but  I  wasn’t  sure.  So  I  didn’t  know  either  of  their  names,   but  yeah,  it  was  very  white  and  pretty  much  we  were  all  in  our  twenties  or  thirties.  There  might   have  been  a  couple  women  who  were  a  little  older,  but,  in  terms  of  younger,  you  know,   twenties-­‐ish,  like  right  out  of  college.       51:10   JG:  So  would  you  say  that  pretty  much  everyone  identified  as  lesbian?  Or  were  there  bisexual   women  there  as  well?       51:25   KLB:  No,  because,  well,  I  didn’t  want  any  bisexual  women  around.  Now  I’ve  learned  to  accept   them,  but  at  that  time  when  you  had  so  much  at  risk,  you  couldn’t  get  involved  and  fall  in  love   with  a  bisexual  woman  because  she  wasn’t  risking  anything.  She  could  just  go  back  to  being   with  a  guy,  and  you’d  be  left  broken  hearted.  So  it  was  an  emotional  investment,  but  it  was  also   a  commitment  to  taking  care  of  each  other  and  being  there  and  I  didn’t  want  anybody  wishy-­‐ washy  or  anything  involved  in  this.  And  really  there  was  not  a  bisexual  movement  as  such,  or   bisexuals  speaking  up  for  themselves  at  that  point.  I  think  that  came  later.  Like  at  that  time  it   was  probably  just  LG  [lesbians  and  gay  men]  [laughter].  So  yeah.       52:28   JG:  What  was  the  group’s  relationship  with  gay  men,  or  men  in  general,  or  attitude  towards   them?     52:35   KLB:  I  personally  was  a  social  separatist.  I’ve  described  myself  like  that  forever.  You  know,  if  I   had  to  be  with  men—which  I  did  because  I  worked  with  men  mostly,  almost  exclusively—I   could  handle  it  and  do  it  and  all  that,  but  I  didn’t  want  to  waste  any  of  my  social  time  or  my  off   time  being  with  men,  nor  did  I  want  them  infiltrating  our  group  or  our  parties  or  our  events.   Even  if  they  would  come  to  a  concert  or  something—get  out  of  here!  You  have  every  other   place  to  go,  you  know?  Yeah,  I  was  pretty  adamant.  I  don’t  think  that  I  represented  everybody   with  that,  a  lot  of  people  were  nicer  and  more  accepting  and  realized  that  we  live  in  a   [laughter]  world  full  of  both  men  and  women,  but  back  then  you  just  kind  of  had  to  be   protective  and  extreme.       53:44   JG:  So  tell  me  about  the  kinds  of  activities  that  First  Friday  did,  other  than  the  retreat  I  guess.       53:51   14     �KLB:  Yeah,  well  after  Barbara’s  party  we  had  so  much  fun,  we  decided  to  have  more  of  these   dances,  these  fancy  dress  balls.  I  can’t  remember  when  the  first  fling  was,  so  we  started  doing   them  in  February  and  it  was  First  Friday’s  Fabulous  February  Fling  [laughter]  and  we  did  them   for  years,  all  at  the  Roanoke  County  Women’s  Club.  I  would  emcee  it  and  bands  would  play,  and   we  would  have  a  dance  contest,  and  it  was  just  a  load  of  fun.  We  would  have  a  lot  of  food,  and   people  came  to  expect  a  certain  level  of…  entertainment  isn’t  the  right  word,  but  just  that  the   party  was  going  to  be  really  nice.  There  wasn’t  going  to  be  a  keg  of  beer.  And  pretty  much  I   think  it  was  an  open  bar,  I  think,  but  I  don’t  remember.  There  was  certainly  alcohol,  but  I  don’t   remember  if  we  provided  it  or  not.  I  know  that  that  came  up  with  retreats,  whether  we  would   provide  free  beer,  because  we  did  for  a  long  time,  and  there  were  some  people  who  were  really   adamantly  against  it,  and  I  don’t  remember  which  way  it  went.  I  think  at  some  point  we  did   stop  having  it  free,  but  still  people  brought  it.  We  weren’t  saying  “no  liquor,”  just  that  First   Friday  was  not  going  to  provide  it.       What  else  did  we  do?  Well,  the  newsletter  was  a  big  thing  because  my  outfielder  and  I  laid  it   out  for  a  long  time  and  that  was  a  huge  undertaking.  We  also  wrote  a  column  for  it  and  that   was  fun  [laughter].  We  were  the  “Condor  Sisters,”  and  we  wrote  just  like  a  gossip  column  using   first  names  or  initials,  I  think  we  used  initials,  and  it  was  just  silly  as  it  could  be  and  never  mean-­‐ spirited,  but  poking  fun.  Never  meaning  to  be  mean,  but  poking  fun  at  people.  You  have  to  be   able  to  laugh  at  yourself,  and  we  tried  to  include  that,  just  poking  fun  at  ourselves  in  it  as  well.  I   was  very  influenced  by  a  column  in  the  Village  Voice2  that,  I  think  it  was,  Michael  Musto.  I  think   he  took  it,  there  was  another  one  and  that  guy  died,  then  Michael  Musto  had  one.  I  had  been   getting  the  Village  Voice  for  years  and  years  starting  in  Milwaukee,  and  I  just  really  liked  that   column.  I  would  go  to  it  every  time  and  I  would  read  it  along  with  all  the  other  stuff,  so  I   thought  that  that  was  very  important  for  the  paper.  And  that  was  my  only  contribution,  was   writing  that  column  and  then  laying  it  out.  But  other  people  wrote  thoughtful  articles  or   researched  articles  or  different  things.  There  was  a  big  article  in  one  issue  about  Eleanor   Roosevelt.  And  at  the  time,  I  had  no  clue  that  she  was  a  lesbian  or  had  a  relationship  with  a   woman.  So  that  was  kind  of  neat  because  if  I  didn’t  know,  then  there  were  other  people  who   didn’t  know.  I  think  Nancy  [Kelly]  wrote  that.  What  else  did  we  do?  I  mean,  when  I  was  in  the   hospital  people  were  awesome,  coming  around  and  everything.     57:38   JG:  Well  going  back  to  the  Eleanor  Roosevelt  thing,  actually,  I  did  notice  that  there  were  a   number  of  articles  in  Skip  Two  Periods  about  history  and  lesbians  in  history.  And  plus  I  know   you  guys  had  the  Lesbian  Herstory  Archives3  come  to  a  retreat  and  everything,  so  I  was  just   wondering  how  history  played  a  part  in  the  group  or  in  Skip  Two  Periods,  or  how  it  was  or  was   not  present  in  your  mind.       58:04                                                                                                               2  An  alternative  newsweekly  particularly  focused  on  the  arts  in  New  York  City.   3  A  New  York  City-­‐based  archive  of  lesbian  history  founded  in  1974.   15     �KLB:  Because  we  were  pro-­‐women  and  pro-­‐lesbian  we  wanted  to  celebrate  any  lesbians  and  so   coming  up  with  historical  figures,  because  we  didn’t  have  too  many  role  models  or  examples  or   people  that  we  could  even  disagree  with  but  then  [say],  “Well,  at  least  she  was  a  lesbian”   [laughter].  So  I  think  it  was  a  way  of  trying  to  educate  people  about  our  ancestors  and  also  just   interesting,  you  know,  because  there  wasn’t  even  women’s  studies  then,  you  know,  much  less   gay  and  lesbian  studies.  Or  women’s  studies  maybe  were  just  starting  to  happen,  I  don’t  know,   but  it  really  was  a  way  of  making  the  newsletter  more  valuable.  You  can  have  a  little  gossip   column  [laughter],  you  can  have  the  directions  to  the  next  First  Friday  party  and  whatever  else   we  would  have  in  there,  but  adding  something  historic  like  that  gave  it  some  meat  I  think.     59:24   JG:  All  right,  so  describe  the  retreats  for  me.       59:28   KLB:  Mmm.  We  would  get  there  early,  maybe  the  day  before.  I  can’t  remember,  maybe  we’d   get  there  on  Thursday  night  or  something,  but  we  would  work  our  butts  off  all  day  Friday   getting  ready  for  it,  and  the  food  committee  was  one  of  the  most  important  committees.  So   people  would  go  and  they  would  buy  the  food—I  was  never  on  a  food  committee  [laughter],   but  I  did  enjoy  it.  So  I  know  that  they  were  very  well  organized  and  had  people  who  were,  well   first  they  would  come  up  with  the  menu  and  then  people  would  go  to  buy  the  food  and  then   there  was  all  the  food  preparation.  We  also  asked  everybody  who  came  to  the  retreats  to   volunteer.  They  could  volunteer  for  all  sort  of  things  and  certainly  working  in  the  kitchen  was   one  of  them,  and  so  it  wasn’t  just  First  Friday  people  cooking,  it  was  campers  too.  And  some   campers  loved  it  and  that’s  what  they  did  every  year,  or  if  there  was  somebody  who  was  sort  of   by  herself  and  didn’t  know  what  to  do  with  herself  and  was  maybe  nervous,  it  was  like,  go  to   the  kitchen,  you  know,  there  would  be  music  playing  and  people  chopping  and  dancing,  and  it   was  just  a  good  time.  So  we  had  registration.  People  had  to  register  in  advance.  I  don’t  think   that  we  necessarily  had  people  come  without  registering,  maybe  we  did,  but  we  had  people   assigned  to  parking.  So  people  would  drive  in  and  somebody  would  be  there  to  greet  them,  tell   them  where  to  park,  and  then  they  would  go  to  registration  and  just  get  whatever  they  needed,   like  the  stuff  to  make  their  name  tags.  Have  you  ever  seen  one  of  the  name  tags?         1:01:06   JG:  I  don’t  think  so.       1:01:07   KLB:  They  were  little  pieces  of  wood.  Circles  of  wood  from  a  branch  with  a  hole  in  it  drilled  in,   so  tied  with  yarn,  and  people  would  just  decorate  it  with  their  name.  You  would  wear  that  all   weekend.  So  you’d  get  your  nametag  situation.  And  then  if  you  were  tenting,  find  a  place  to   camp,  or  we  had  a  lot  of  buildings,  whatever  they  were  called,  where  you  were  assigned.  There   was  always  at  least  one  heated  building  and  the  organizers  got  it,  I  mean  that’s  just  how  it  was   [laughter].  We  would  all  try  to  leave  work,  or  take  Friday  off  to  get  there,  cause  there  were  just   trashcans  to  be  put  out,  and  we  would  try  to  sweep  out  all  the  cabins.  You  know  just  little   16     �things,  making  sure  that  everything  was  taken  care  of,  deciding  where  the  Olympics  was  going   to  be  and  making  sure  sound  systems  worked.     And  I  always  did  an  opening.  The  retreats  opened  with  two  things.  First  Kathy  Brehony  would   come  out  and  give  a  really  soulful  welcome  to  people,  and  she’s  great.  She’s  a  psychologist,  and   she’s  so  well  spoken  and  always  made  everybody  feel  like,  “I’m  where  I’m  supposed  to  be  right   now.”  It  was  just  awesome,  she  didn’t  try  to  make  jokes,  she  didn’t  try  to  do  anything  but  give   this  nice  welcome  and  appreciate  what  we  have  and  what  we’re  doing.  Lovely.  And  then  she   would  introduce  Sister  Mary  Catherine  and  I  would  come  out.  And  for  Sister  Mary  Catherine  I   spelled  Catherine  with  a  C  so  it  would  be  Sister  MC—that’s  my  own  little  thing,  and  every  year  I   would  do  it,  and  I  had  the  same  outfit  and  it  was  really  cobbled  together  [laughter].  It  was  not   in  any  way  a  real  nun’s  habit,  but  I  had  all  the  right  pieces  because  I  had  been,  you  know,  for   ten  years  of  schooling  sitting  there  looking  at  a  nun  teaching  me,  so  I  did  have  the  right  shoes   for  sure.  Usually  there  would  be  some  point  that  I  would  just  pull  myself  away  from  what  was   going  on  with  registration  and  just  the  activities  of  getting  ready  and  sort  of  sequester  myself  to   write  what  I  was  going  to  say.     It  was  really  my  responsibility  to  give  out  any  rules,  like  the  one  that  people  always  remember   is  to  trail  strip  your  cigarette.  And  then  because  every  year  I  would  say  it,  I  would  have  to  come   up  with  different  ways  of  telling  people  how  to  do  it.  One  year  I  had  some  dancers  and  they  had   giant  cigarette  butts  that  they  would  trail  strip.  And  see,  people  were  willing  to  do  it,  all  I’d  have   to  do  is  ask  them,  “Would  you  please  be  my  dancers?”  and,  “Yeah!”  [laughter]  It  was  great.  So   it  was  things  like  that,  to  be  respectful  of  each  other,  and  not  make  a  lot  of  noise,  and  when  we   leave  it  has  to  be  clean,  and  all  the  boring  stuff,  but  I  would  say  it  like  I  was  some  sexually   deprived  old  nun.  I  was  mad  and  angry.  You  know,  it  was  fun.     I’ve  had  a  lot  of  surgeries  on  my  hip  over  the  years,  and  one  year  I  was  on  crutches  for  the   retreat.  This  was  after  my  first  go-­‐round,  this  was  maybe  five  years  in  or  something.  And  I  just   was  not  up  for  doing  Sister  Mary  Catherine  on  crutches.  I  couldn’t.  And  I  started  sort  of  putting   it  out  there  and  seeing  what  people  thought,  and  the  backlash  was  incredible.  Like  clearly   everybody  wanted  me  to  do  it,  but  there  was  no  way  I  could  get  them  to  understand  that  Sister   Mary  Catherine  doesn’t  use—and  I  have  the  Canadian  crutches  which  are  like  the  polio   crutches—you  know,  that’s  Kathryn,  that’s  not  Sister  Mary  Catherine.  But  I  couldn’t  put  weight   on  my  leg  for  a  year  and  it  was  really  important  for  me  to  adhere  to  that.  So  I  talked  with  some   of  my  buddies  and  said,  “So  I  was  thinking,  could  you  make  something  like  a  booth?  Like  the   Wizard  of  Oz,  but  it  would  be  Monster  Mary  Catherine,”  [laughter]  and  so  it  would  be  on  stage   and  it  would  just  be  this  giant  nun  head,  and  then  the  mouth  would  move.  So  I  would  be  inside   of  it  with  a  microphone  doing  the  whole  shebang,  making  it  talk  and  all,  and  then  at  the  end  of   it,  somebody  would  come  over  and  open  it  up  like  the  Wizard  of  Oz  and  there  I  would  be   [laughter].  And  then,  so  that’s  what  we  did,  and  I  mean  they  made  it,  and  it  was  just  beautiful   and  maybe  the  eyes  even  lit  up.  I  can’t  remember.  We  talked  about  that,  I  don’t  remember  if  it   actually  did.  I  have  a  picture  of  that  [Kathryn  gets  picture  to  show  Julia].       1:06:07   17     �JG:  I  would  love  to  see  that.       1:06:11   KLB:  It  was  just  amazing.  To  me,  that  is  just  the  best  example  of  people  being  willing  to  do  just   anything.  All  I  had  to  do  was  ask  them.       1:06:26   JG:  [looking  at  picture]  Oh  my  goodness!       1:06:27   KLB:  Look  at  that!  Papier-­‐mâché  head,  with  a  movable  jaw.       1:06:34   JG:  That  is  amazing!       1:06:35   KLB:  Yeah,  right?    Yeah,  here’s  Pam  working  on  it.       1:06:37   JG:  Wow!       1:06:38     KLB:  Yeah,  and  Sue  B.  working  on  it.       1:06:38   JG:  Wow  [laughter].     1:06:  42   KLB:  Yeah.       1:06:44   JG:  Oh  my  gosh,  okay,  I  want  to  see  these  after  we’re  done!  [laughter]     1:06:47   KLB:  Okay.  Yeah,  this  is  who  I  interviewed  while  you  were  talking  to  Nancy.       1:06:50   JG:  Okay  [laughter].     1:06:51   KLB:  Anyway,  so  people  were  always  willing  to  do  stuff.  So  they  ripped  the  thing  open  and  then   two  people  came  up  and  grabbed  me  by  the  elbows  and  carried  me  to  the  microphone  stand   and  put  me  in  place,  and  then  I  talked  as  me  for  a  little  bit.  But  it  was  great  because  it  was  a   18     �way  of  almost  saying  goodbye  to  Sister  Mary  Catherine  even  though  I  may  have  done  it  again   after  that.  I  probably  did.  But  that  to  me  was  the  cherry  on  top  [laughter].     So  what  else  with  the  retreats?  Well  we  always  had  a  named  performer—a  big  name   performer—open.  So  Sister  Mary  Catherine  would  introduce  the  performer.  So  one  year  it  was   Kate  Clinton4.  So  I  introduced  Kate  Clinton  and  she  came  out  on  stage  and  said,  “How  about   that  Sister  Mary  Catherine?”  And  I  whipped  off  my  veil  and  went  over  and  gave  her  a  kiss!  So   inappropriate  for  a  celebrity,  but  it  was  still  a  moment  in  time  I’ll  never  forget.  So  then  the   performer  would  perform  and  often  they  would  stay  for  the  weekend,  which  was  nice.  Kate   didn’t,  but  Split  Britches5  did,  and  different  singers  and  comedians  did.       At  that  first  retreat  we  had  the  Herstory  Archives.  I  don’t  know  if  we  also  had  a  performance,  I   can’t  remember.  So  that  would  be  Friday  night  and  then  there  was  always  food  available  on   Friday  evening  so  people  could  eat  first.  And  then  on  Saturday  we  would  have  breakfast   workshops,  lunch,  I  think  some  workshops,  and  then  the  Olympics.  And  the  Olympics  were,   again,  just  the  pageantry  that  we  pulled  off  was  amazing.  We  would  always  have  a  theme.  Like   one  year  it  was  sports,  and  we  just  told  everybody.  The  people  who  were  in  the  parade  were  all   the  organizers  so  they  could  get  recognition.  You  know  like,  as  it  were.  So  like  for  the  sports   thing,  everybody  just  had  to  come  wearing—and  somebody  showed  up  in  a  wetsuit  and   flippers.  And  somebody  else  had  a  kilt  on  and  a  hockey  stick.  I  mean  it  was  great.  People  just   did  it  and…  like,  the  one  in  the  kilt,  she  worked  for  Ma  Bell  and  she  would  go  around  to  the   different  payphones,  or  else  she  was  installing  lines  [laughter].  People  who  you  wouldn’t  expect   to  do  something  crazy  like  that.  So  that  was  really  fun  and  I  would  do  a  commentary  of  what   people  were  wearing  and  stuff  just  to  fill  in,  and  then  it  would  climax  with  Nancy  coming  out   dressed  as  either  a  goddess—a  Greek  goddess  carrying  the  flame  and  lighting  the  torch  at  the   end.  Or  one  year  the  theme  was  water  sports  or  something,  so  she  did  it  as  a  mermaid  and  I   made  her  a  mermaid  costume  that  was  beautiful.  She  couldn’t  walk  in  it  [laughter],  but  it  was   really  well  done.     1:10:06     JG:  Mermaids  don’t  need  to  walk  [laughter].     1:10:07   KLB:  No,  no,  no.  And  one  year  the  theme  was  old  TV  shows,  and  so  I  just  brought  all  these   costume  pieces  because  they  just  didn’t  know  what  to  do  with  them.  So  I  dressed  somebody  up   like  I  Dream  of  Jeannie,  you  know,  just  dressed  people  up  like  different  heroines  on  television   shows.  Mary  Tyler  Moore  would  be  somebody  throwing  her  hat  up  in  the  air  the  whole  time.   You  know,  different  shows  that  meant  something  to  us,  that  we  had  grown  up  with  or   whatever.  And  so  then  after  the  parade  the  games  would  start,  and  so  the  games,  I  never  really   was  part  of  making  up  the  games,  that  wasn’t  my  strong  suit  [laughter].  That  was  really  more   pageantry.  But  they  were  fun,  they  were  all  funny  and  silly  and  sometimes  they  would  require  a                                                                                                               4  A  lesbian  comedian.   5  A  performance  troupe  focusing  on  lesbian  and  feminist  issues.   19     �bit  of  athletic  ability,  but  pretty  much  not,  they  really  were  for  everybody.  I  know  that  one  of   the  first  years  we  did  a  frying  pan  toss.  And  I  had  brought  my  big  black  skillet,  and  [laughter]   this  woman  who  I’m  going  to  interview  tomorrow  who  was  a  P.E.  [physical  education]  teacher   in  Roanoke,  she  threw  that  thing  so  far  and  damn  if  the  handle  didn’t  break  off  and  I  didn’t  have   a  pan  anymore,  but  it  was  still  so  funny.  She  kept  that  pan  for  years.  I  don’t  know  if  she  still  has   it  or  not.  But  people  would  keep  things  like  that.     And  then  we  had  the  awards  ceremony  that  night  before  the  dance  and  the  awards  were  as   ridiculous  as  anything  that  we  did.  There  was  one  that  was  pictures  of  Anita  Bryant6,  cause  this   was  in  the  era  of  Anita  Bryant,  and  there  were  autographed  pictures  of  Anita  Bryant  [laughter].   I  can’t  remember  what  that  was  for,  and  I  don’t  have  much  of  a  memory  for  the  prizes  except   that  people  cherished  them.  They  just  loved  them  and  they  kept  them  on  their  mirrors  or   wherever  for  years,  and  that  was  so  cool,  I  mean  it  made  all  of  our  work  so  worth  it  that  people   had  a  good  time  and  that  they  treasured  this  stuff.     So  then  after  the  awards  ceremony  there  would  be  a  dance.  After  the  Olympics  there  was   probably  some  downtime  and  then  dinner,  then  the  awards  ceremony,  and  then  a  dance  and   the  dance  was  a  blast.  You  know,  we  would  have  some  lights  going  [laughter],  and  music.  And   then  the  next  morning  was  breakfast  and  maybe  some  more  workshops  and  just  winding  down,   and  we  always  took  a  group  picture  and  so  everybody  would  get  together  and,  you  know,  put   the  cameras  up,  and  run  back  into  the  picture,  and  you  couldn’t  tell  who  anybody  was  because   it  was  so  little,  but  still  it  was  cool.  And  then  people  just  saying  goodbye  to  each  other,  and  you   know,  nobody  wanted  to  really  leave,  it  was  always  a  long  goodbye  and  a  long  drawn  out   leaving  the  camp,  and  we  had  to  leave  it,  we  wanted  to  leave  it  in  better  condition  than  we   found  it  always  just  because  that’s  who  we  were  and  we  wanted  to  make  sure  that  everything   was  nice  and  they  couldn’t  throw  us  out  for  any  other  reason  other  than  being  lesbians   [laughter].  And  hopefully  they  wouldn’t  find  out,  but  that  was  the  retreat  pretty  much.       There  was  this  period  leaving  the  camp,  like  once  you  got  on  the  highway  again,  or  you’d  pass  a   7-­‐Eleven  and  just  go,  “Oh  my  God,  we’re  back  in  reality.”  And  so  this  magical  world  where  you   were  safe,  where  you  were  respected  and  loved  and  with  people  like  you…  poof  was  gone,  and   then  you  just  were  back  to  the  same  old  thing,  back  to  work  the  next  day  [laughter].  And  you   couldn’t  tell  anybody  what  you  did  over  the  weekend,  I  mean  you  can  [say],  “I  went  camping,”   you  know,  unless  you  were  out  at  work  and  nobody  really  was,  so.     1:14:12   JG:  So  I  think  I  remember  that  you  had  some  struggles  finding  places  to  have  the  retreat.  Can   you  tell  me  about  that?     1:14:20                                                                                                               6  Anti-­‐gay  activist  who  became  nationally  known  for  speaking  out  against  an  anti-­‐discrimination   law  in  Dade  County,  Florida,  in  1977.   20     �KLB:  I  wasn’t  really  involved  with  that.  I  mean  I  can  share  one  story  that,  and  if  Nancy  [Kelly]   already  told  you  this  stop  me,  but  another  woman  was  going  to  go  find  a  camp  for  us.  Gail  was   going  to  go  find  a  camp,  and  she  found  one  and  it  was  decided  that  we  were  just  going  to—   because  we  had  been  kicked  out  of  the  first  camp,  after  being  there  twice,  for  being  lesbians— let’s  just  tell  them  up  front  and  then  we  won’t  have  to  deal  with  it.  She  went  through  the  whole   thing  with  the  woman,  “And  la  la,  oh,  and  by  the  way  we’re  a  group  of  lesbians,”  and  the   woman  said,  “No.”  And  just,  we  couldn’t.  And  so  we  just  moved  on  to  the  next  camp.  Talking  to   Gail,  she  said  that  now,  thirty  years  later,  “I  know  this  woman.”  She’s  now  in  her  80s  and  she’s  a   big  supporter  of  gay  and  lesbian  rights  and  stuff,  but  at  that  point  in  time  there  was  no  way.  But   I  never  was  involved  with  the  choosing  of  the  camp.       1:15:19   JG:  Let’s  see.  Do  you  remember  the  representative  from  the  Lesbian  Herstory  Archives  coming?     1:15:28   KLB:  Mmhmm.       1:15:29   JG:  So  what  exactly  did  they  do?     1:15:32   KLB:  They  had  a  slide  show  I  remember,  and  I  don’t  remember  much  of  what  was  in  the  slide   show  and  what  they  talked  about,  but  it  was  cool.  It  was  more  of  that  history  and  it’s  like,  oh,  I   didn’t  know  that.  Their  whole  reason  for  being  there  was  to  educate  us  about  the  archives,  to   stress  the  importance  of  saving  stuff,  and  how  we’re  creating  our  history  now,  and  it’s  really   important  to  save  it,  and  to  stress  that  they  needed  money  [laughter].  And  you  know  that’s   cool,  we  didn’t  really  have  any  money  to  give  them,  but  it  was  great  because  I  think  we  all  left   there  with  an  appreciation  for  the  work  they  were  doing  and  then  later  when  a  group  of  us   went  up  to  New  York,  some  of  them  went  and  delivered  a  whole  bunch  of  things,  mostly  Skip   Two  Periods,  to  the  archives,  which  then  your  guy  [Dr.  Gregory  Rosenthal]  came  across.  So  it’s   nice,  it’s  nice  to  know  that  it’s  still  being  preserved  and  it’s  still  there  all  these  many  years  later.   But  that’s  about  all  I  remember.  I  remember  that  I  just  thought  that  what  they  were  doing  was   really  cool,  but  of  course  you  keep  everything  [laughter],  just  because  I  have  files  of  stuff,  you   know.  Not  everybody  necessarily  does  it,  and  now  that  I’m  looking  for  things  too,  realizing  that   people,  even  if  they  had  kept  it,  sometimes  fire  damage  or  just  losing  something  in  a  move  or   flooding  or  whatever,  that  stuff  gets  ruined  and  it’s  gone.       1:17:05   JG:  So  what  kinds  of  conflicts  arose  in  First  Friday?     1:17:12   KLB:  [Pause]  I  don’t  recall  many  conflicts…  [pause]  We  pretty  much  got  along,  I  mean  we  would   have,  you  know,  little  disagreements  about  things  but  it  was  never  like  two  sides  of  something   and  people  would…  I  don’t  remember  any  of  that.  I  think  later  as  more  people  started  coming   21     �in  and  the  leadership  changed  a  little  there  may  have  been  a  little  bit  more  in  the  way  of   conflict,  but  we  all  pretty  much  got  along.  Once  I  remember  at  a  [Fabulous  February]  Fling,   somebody  telling  me  that  so  and  so  is  back  there  bad  mouthing  you,  and  I  was  like,  “Fuck  her,   tell  her  to  get  up  here  and  be  the  emcee.”  You  know  [laughter],  but  it  never  came—I  didn’t   approach  her  and  say—it  was  so  stupid,  cause  I  just  thought,  “Are  you  jealous?  You  can  do  it!”   We  were  all  working  so  hard  to  make  it  happen  and  welcomed  people  joining  us,  and  so  we   certainly  weren’t  perfect.  And  I  know  that  I  wasn’t  as  sensitive  as  I  have  become  later  in  life.  But   yeah,  I  don’t  remember  lots  of  conflicts.       1:18:39   JG:  Well  that’s  good.       1:18:39   KLB:  Yeah.       1:18:40   JG:  So  what  were  the  gathering  places  that  you  used.  I  know  you  mentioned  Taylor  House.       1:18:15   KLB:  Mmhmm.  Mmhmm.       1:18:53   JG:  I  think  there  was  also  the  Cornerstone,  is  that  right?       1:18:55   KLB:  Yeah.  The  Cornerstone  was,  I  think,  it’s  near  5th  and  Campbell  or  something.  [Editor’s  note:   it  was  the  corner  of  5th  and  Church.]     1:18:59   JG:  Oh,  yeah.       1:19:00   KLB:  And  it  was  a  church  and  at  one  point  it  was  for  sale  or  something  and  some  women   invested  in  it  and  opened  it  up  as  a  bar.  Well  that  was  interesting  because  a  lot  of  women   wouldn’t  go  to  it  because  they  had  been  raised  Baptist  or  whatever,  and  they  would  not  go  to  a   church  to  drink  [laughter].  So  there  was  one  of  those  cultural  differences.  Really?  And  it  was  a   beautiful  space  and  we  had  some  nice  concerts  there  and  stuff,  so  that  was  a  place.  When  we   produced  Split  Britches  we  rented  [the]  Roanoke  College  theatre.  It  was  really  lovely;  it  was  a   great  place.  People’s  houses,  you  know...  We  had  a  surprise  birthday  party  for  Alice  and  that   was  downstairs  at  The  Park,  cause  they  have  a  downstairs  bar,  but  we  never  really  had   meetings  or  gatherings  or  any  real  official  First  Friday  things  at  The  Park  or  at  any  bars.  We   would  go  to  Macado’s  and  a  bunch  of  people  would  go,  but  again,  it  wasn’t  really  necessarily  a   First  Friday  event,  but  it  all  kind  of  blended  together.  First  Friday  and  your  friends  were  all  the   same  [laughter].  So  yeah,  then  just  different  people’s  houses  for  the  parties.     22     �   1:20:26   JG:  Were  you  aware  of  the  AIDS  crisis  going  on  at  that  time?  Or  did  that  affect  you  in  anyway?       1:20:37   KLB:  It  did  not  affect  me  in  any  way.  It  was  interesting.  This  is  how  it  affected  me,  cause  in  1981   I  was  lying  in  a  hospital  getting  blood  transfusions  and  then  hearing  about  this  and  wondering,   “Oh…”  But  it  was  fine  because  we  were  in  Roanoke,  and  Roanoke  was  pretty  isolated.  I  lost  one   friend  to  AIDS  way  later,  and  I  had  worked  with  him,  he  was  an  anchorman  here  in  town.  And   then  he  left  and  he  was  in  D.C.,  and  that’s  where  he  died.  But  I  kind  of  lost  touch  with  him  and  I   had  left  Roanoke  by  then  so  it  was  in  the  ‘90s.  But  I  personally  did  not…  but  I  wasn’t  socializing   with  men,  gay  men,  at  all  really  and  whereas  some  people  who  had  lived  here  longer  and  they   had  friends,  like  my  friend  Alice,  who  was  my  best  friend,  she  owned  a  T-­‐shirt  shop  with  a  guy   named  Robert,  and  he  was  gay  and  they  did  a  lot  of  stuff  together.  So  she  knew  more  people.   She  may  have  known  people  who  had  died  of  AIDS,  but  I  did  not,  and  I’ve  often  sort  of   marveled  at  that,  that  wow,  that  was  like  this  huge  plague,  and  it  just,  yeah,  it  didn’t  affect  me.     1:22:15   JG:  I’m  jumping  a  little  bit  around  now,  but  was  butch/femme  part  of  the  First  Friday  culture  at   all  or  were  you  at  all  involved  in  butch/femme  stuff?     1:22:25   KLB:  It  was  not.  I  mean  I  think  that  there  were  probably  some  people  who  came  to  the  retreat   that  might  have  been  more  into  that.  Like  in  recent  years,  where  there’s  been  a  really  healthy   butch/femme  culture  developing  among  younger  lesbians,  and  I’ve  got  a  lot  of  friends  in  L.A.   [Los  Angeles]  who  are  totally  into  it.  I  love  it.  I  think  that  it’s  great,  but  at  that  time,  those  were   old  school  lesbians.  Those  were  like,  you  know,  like  butch  dykes  and  their  girlfriends  who  could   pass.  So  when  I  was  first  coming  out  in  Milwaukee  at  the  bars,  I  would  see  these  couples  and  I’d   just  giggle  at  them  slow  dancing  to  Barry  White  [laughter]  at  these  little  hole-­‐in-­‐the-­‐wall  lesbian   bars.  But  that  was  not  part  of  my…  my  pitcher  [girlfriend]  was  probably  pretty  butch,  but  that   wasn’t  part  of  the  culture  at  all.         1:23:30   JG:  So  what  were  the  markers  of  a  lesbian  at  that  time  in  your  circle?     1:23:35   KLB:  Yeah.  You  didn’t  really  wear  makeup,  you  didn’t  shave  your  legs,  you  didn’t  buy  into   Madison  Avenue—the  Madison  Avenue  woman—what  they  were  trying  to  create  or  have   created  and  continue  to.  You  know,  comfortable  clothes.  I  mean  I  would  dress  up  for  work  and  I   would  have  fun.  I  would  wear  heels  and  I  would  do  whatever,  but  on  off  hours  [laughter]  you   know,  I  wouldn’t.  What  else?  I  mean  our  hair  always  sort  of  reflected  what  was  going  on  in  the   bigger  world.  Like  it  was  the  ‘80s  so  everybody  had  big  hair,  you  know?  [laughter]  But  it  wasn’t   necessarily  lesbian  big  hair  versus  straight  woman  big  hair.  There  weren’t  any  things  like  pinky   23     �rings  or  different  things  that  had  existed  in  other  decades  that  was  a  clue,  a  signal.  Yeah,  I  can’t   really  think  of  anything.       1:24:50   JG:  Yeah.  Umm…     1:24:52   KLB:  In  Roanoke.  I  mean  cause  once  you  went  to  New  York  it  was  a  whole  different  thing.  A   bunch  of  us  went  to  New  York.  One  of  the  things  we  did  was  we  went  to  the  WOW  Café.  It   stood  for  Women  One  World  and  the  Split  Britches  women  had  started  that,  that  was  their   performance  space,  and  was  a  gathering  space  and  there,  there  was  butch/femme  going  on  and   lots  of  leather  jackets  that  people  [wore],  but  that’s  just  sort  of  [how  it’s]  always  been.  But  they   were  hipper.  I  mean,  there  was  not  a  lot  of  style  happening  here  [laughter].       1:25:33   JG:  Were  there  other  lesbian  communities  or  gay  communities  in  other  parts  of  Southwest   Virginia  that  you  guys  were  interacting  with?       1:25:43   KLB:  No.       1:25:44   JG:  Okay.     1:25:45   KLB:  I  mean  I  knew  some  women  in  Abingdon  because  we  had  moved  down  from  Milwaukee  at   the  same  time  and  shared  a  U-­‐Haul  and  stuff  and  I  [laughter]  dropped  off  their  stuff  outside  of   Abingdon  in  Nicholsville  and  then  continued  on,  and  in  that  little  moment  in  time  when  I  was   there,  I  met  a  couple  other  lesbians  who  in  fact  gave  me  Alice’s  name.  And  that’s  how  I  met   Alice  because  they  told  me,  “Her  name  is  Alice.  She  owns  a  t-­‐shirt  shop.  Go.  Introduce   yourself.”  And  I  was  so  scared.  I  went  to  that  store  like  four  times  before  I  ever  walked  in  it,  and   then  when  I  walked  in  it,  you  know,  I  looked  at  all  the  t-­‐shirts  [laughter].  And  then,  “Can  I  help   you?”  “Well  actually….”  And  she’ll  tell  the  story.  It’s  just  ridiculous  how  nervous  I  was  and   scared.  And  I  don’t  know  what  I  was  scared  of.  I  think  maybe  it  was  that  if  this  didn’t  work  out,   then  I  really  didn’t  know  any  lesbians.  I  didn’t  have  any  way—this  was  my  one  shot  at  meeting   somebody.       1:26:37   JG:  So  was  she  sort  of  your  gateway  to  the  lesbian  community  here?     1:26:42   KLB:  Sort  of.  Yeah…  yeah.       1:26:45   24     �JG:  She  already  knew  people?     1:26:48   KLB:  Yes,  she  did.  Because  she  was  a  business  person  she  was  really  busy  with  doing  that  and   with  the  guy  that  she  owned  the  company  with.  And  it  turned  out  that  they  lived  around  the   corner  from  me  in  Old  Southwest,  which  was  pretty  funny.  I  lived  on  Albemarle  at  the  time.   They  were  literally  around  the  corner.  And  so  they  were  silk-­‐screening  t-­‐shirts,  and  they  had  a   couple  locations.  So  there  was  a  lot  of  work  and  then,  you  know,  we  just  went  to  softball  games   and  met  people  [laughter].  But  that  was  one  crowd  and  as  much  fun  as  it  was  and  as  much  as  I   would  be  in  love  with  whoever  I  was  seeing  at  the  time,  it  wasn’t  First  Friday.  It  wasn’t  a  group   of  friends.  I  didn’t  stay  friends  with  the  softball  players  or  anything.     1:27:47   JG:  So  have  your  experiences  since  you  left  First  Friday,  left  Roanoke,  changed  the  way  that  you   look  back  on  it  at  all?     1:28:03   KLB:  Well,  in  one  of  those  “you  don’t  know  what  you’ve  got  till  it’s  gone”  kind  of  ways,  because   I’ve  never  been  in  a  community  like  this.  I  have  a  great  group  of  friends  in  LA  because  a  woman   that  I  had  met  in  1975  lives  there,  and  I  ran  into  her  right  when  I  moved  back,  and  she  and  her   partner  have  included  me  in  their  circle  of  friends,  and  so  we  celebrate  holidays  together  and   things  like  that.  But  they  all  lived  in  LA  for  a  lot  longer,  and  I  notice  that  every  now  and  then   that  it’s  just  a  different  thing.  They’re  all  west-­‐siders  which  is…  [laughter]  most  of  them  are   attractive.  They  could  pass.  They’re  not  necessarily  shouting  out,  “Hey,  I’m  a  lesbian!”   [laughter]  I  think  that’s  great,  you  know.  So  that’s  the  only  community  that  I  can  think  of,  that  I   can  compare  to,  and  it’s  not  the  same.  It’s  just  not.  So  it  certainly  contributed  to  my  feeling  that   I  can  do  anything  I  want,  and  that  I  could  call  on  these  people  whenever  I  needed  to.  I  mean   Nancy  and  I  didn’t  talk  to  each  other  for  thirty  years  until  in  October,  and  boom,  I  mean  it’s  like   we  didn’t  skip  a  beat.  It’s  so  comfortable  and  it’s  so  nice.  You  know,  she  just  brought  her   scanner  and  she’s  scanning  all  these  pictures  for  me  for  the  doc[umentary]7.  It’s  wonderful.       1:29:55   JG:  All  right,  I  know  we’ve  been  talking  for  a  while,  but  if  you  want  to  just  give  a  brief  summary   of  what  you’ve  done  since  you  left  Roanoke  and  what  your  life  is  like  now?     1:30:08   KLB:  Yeah.  I  left  Roanoke  to  follow  my  girlfriend  to  Alabama,  where  she  got  a  job  teaching  at   the  University  of  Alabama,  and  I  ultimately  landed  a  job  in  Montgomery  working  at  Alabama   Public  Television.  And  so  I  would  commute  on  the  weekends,  and  then  we  broke  up.  I’m  not   going  to  go  into  those  details,  doesn’t  matter.  We  broke  up  and  there  I  was  in  Alabama…  Ahh!   [laughter].  Even  though  I’d  made  some  good  friends  there.  So  I  started  looking  for  work  and                                                                                                               7  At  the  time  of  this  oral  history,  Kathryn  was  in  Roanoke  with  Nancy  Kelly  to  gather  material  for   a  documentary  on  First  Friday.     25     �there  was  an  opening  in  Norfolk  and  I  applied  for  that,  and  badgered  the  guy  till  he  hired  me   because  Alice  had  moved  there  and  Kathy  Brehony  moved  there  and  I  had  a  lot  of  friends  in   Norfolk.  So  I  moved  to  Norfolk  and  worked  there  for  a  few  years,  and  then  finally  followed  my   dream  and  moved  to  New  York.  But  I  was  already  in  my  40s  and  it’s  sort  of  a  younger  women’s   town.  I  mean  not  really,  not  like  LA,  but  I  remember  often  wishing  that  I  had  been  there  sooner.     So  I  was  working  for  Time  Inc.  New  Media.  I  was  the  production  manager  for  this  little…  it  was   called  the  News  Exchange,  and  we  were  working  on  an  interactive  television  project  that  took   place  in  Orlando.  And  we  provided  all  of  the  news  stories  and  the  anchor  people  and  streamed   it  down  to  Orlando,  and  then  that  was  the  news  portion  of  this  experiment.  And  the  experiment   didn’t  work.  There  were  a  number  of  different  companies  trying  things  out  and  so  when  this   failed,  then  I  was  out  of  a  job  again  [laughter],  and  like,  damn.  Well  it  was  really,  that  was  the   first  time,  I  think,  that  I  was  laid  off.  Yeah.  And  so  I  had  also  been  working  with  Dyke  TV  in  New   York,  so  I  did  some  work  for  them,  it’s  all  volunteer,  and  I  met  a  woman  there  and  we  were   seeing  each  other,  and  then  she  moved  to  San  Francisco.  So  when  I  got  laid  off  it  was  December   in  New  York  and  all  I  heard  was,  “Another  beautiful  day  in  San  Francisco!  Oh  Kathryn,  you   should  be  here!”  and  stuff.  And  so  I  thought,  what  would  be  better?  To  be  laid  off  in  freezing   New  York  in  the  winter  or  “another  beautiful  day  in  San  Francisco”  without  a  job?  And  I   thought,  I’ll  move  to  San  Francisco!  And  packed  up  and  moved  and  the  relationship  [sigh],  did   not  work  out,  nor  did  San  Francisco  work  for  me.     Of  all  the  places  I’ve  ever  lived  that  didn’t  work  out  for  me.  There  were  no  jobs  for  me  even   though  I  had  all  this  experience,  there  was  just  not  that  much  television  happening.  I  got  a  job   as  a  headhunter  for  software  engineers…  as  if!  And  I  would  talk  to  them  and  say,  “Oh,  so  where   are  you  from?  Oh,  you’re  from  Michigan?  Well  I’m  from  Wisconsin!”  I  mean  like  I  could  talk  and   talk,  but  I  couldn’t  place  anybody  because  I  didn’t  know  what  the  heck  they  did,  a  network   engineer  versus  a  software  engineer,  it  was  pretty  funny.       So  I  visited  some  friends  in  LA  and  it  was  a  no  brainer.  It  was  beautiful  here—there—and   television  was  everywhere.  Ann,  the  artist  for  First  Friday,  was  living  out  there  then  and  the   woman  she  was  seeing  worked  for  one  of  the  cable  networks  and  so  she  passed  my  resume   around  for  me.  So  I  had  a  bunch  of  interviews  at  this  cable  network  and  within  two  weeks  I  had   a  job  and  moved  down  there,  and  that  was  in  June  of  ‘97.  So  this  is  my  20-­‐year  anniversary  in  a   place  that  I  never  thought  I  would  be.       So  I  worked  for  this  cable  network—E!,  E!  Entertainment  Television.  I  worked  for  E!  for  thirteen   years  and  rose  through  the  ranks.  I  was  a  producer  on  True  Hollywood  Story,  and  then  a   supervising  producer  on  the  show  and  on  other  shows,  and  then  I  was  Director  of  Production   and  then  I  was  Executive  Director  of  Production,  and  I  worked  on  the  Anna  Nicole  show.  When   Anna  Nicole  died  I  was  the  person  they  sent  to  the  Bahamas  for  the  funeral,  I  mean,  I  was  close   to  her.  I  knew  her,  and  all  that.  And  then  in  2009,  when  the  economy  was  still  a  mess,  NBC   Universal  was  about  to  buy  E  and  so  they  needed  to  look  better  on  paper,  so  they  laid  fifty  of  us   off.  Then  a  month  later  they  let  fifty  more  people  go.  I  was  laid  off  from  there  in  2009  and  in   2010  I  got  a  job,  a  dopey  little  job  at  Santa  Anita  Race  Track.  Who  knew  they  had  a  little   26     �television  division  [laughter].  I  was  the  production  manager  for  a  little  group  of  us.  We  were   making  documentaries  about  horses  or  horse  people  or  owners  or  trainers  or  tracks  or   whatever.       And  then  about  four  years  later,  there  was  another  horse  sports  network  that  wanted  to  buy  us   out.  And  so  they  did  and  we  were  all  laid  off,  and  that  was  a  couple  of  years  ago,  and  so  I’ve   been  laid  off  ever  since.  And  now  I’m  63  years  old,  nobody’s  gonna  hire  me,  you  know   [laughter],  even  though  I’ve  got  all  this  experience  and  I’m  a  hard  worker,  so  instead  I’m   working  on  freelancing  and  I’ve  gotten  a  couple  freelance  jobs  doing  editing  and  shooting  and   whatever  and  working  on  my  passion  project,  which  is  a  documentary  about  First  Friday.  So,  I’m   so  pleased  at  what  you  guys  are  doing,  and  it  really  kickstarted  it  for  me  because  I  was  so   excited  that  you  guys  were  actually  recognizing  us  and  like  we  existed  and  you  appreciate  that   and  it  was  so  great,  and  I  was  high  on  that  for  about  two  weeks  and  then  I  went,  “Wait  a   minute!  This  is  my  story,”  [laughter]  and  so  I  finally  was  doing  this.  It  was  something  I  meant  to   do  for  twenty  years,  before  people  die  or  whatever  or  get  rid  of  more  of  their  ephemera.  I’m   here.  And  so  it  worked  out  well  with  this  and  so  I’ve  interviewed  about  fifteen  people  now  and   I’ve  got  more  to  go.  And  then  the  editing  starts  and  then  that’s  when  it’s  gonna  be  a  lot  of   work.       1:36:48   JG:  Yeah,  well  I  think  that’s  a  pretty  good  place  to  end.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you  wanted   to  talk  about  that  we  skipped?     1:36:57   KLB:  No.  Just  thank  you  [laughter].  Thank  you  so  much  for  acknowledging  us,  it’s  great.       1:37:01   JG:  Thank  you  so  much  for  existing  [laughter].           [END]     27     � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Kathryn L. Beranich Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Kathryn L. Beranich Interviewer: Julia Greider Interviewee: Kathryn L. Beranich Date: 17 January 2017 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Duration: 1:37:03 Transcription prepared by: Kerri Taylor Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 January 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kathryn L. Beranich, Julia Greider, Kerri Taylor Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BeranichKathryn https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4155/Anonymous1PT1.mp3 0df79fd3aab30af188c9b370d9939be4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4155/Anonymous1PT2.mp3 7a6fb3f87e3f3714753c0a6ffd8ae020 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4155/Anonymous1PT3.mp3 2c092b42f701d3c6699d24379b9bc4df https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4155/Anonymous1.pdf f1df5ceea287bee0461c8efe8a96373d PDF Text Text Interview  with  Anonymous  -­‐  in  three  parts   February  24,  2017   Interviewer:  Roanoke  College  students   Interviewee:  Anonymous   Date:  February  24,  2017   Location:  Downtown  Roanoke   Transcribed  by:  Roanoke  College  students   Total  Duration:  52:17     Part  One  (32:05):   0:00-­‐  Family  background  in  Rock  Creek,  North  Carolina,  from  slavery  through  the  mid-­‐twentieth   century   1:57-­‐  childhood,  singing  in  the  church;  moving  to  Roanoke  at  age  seven  (c.  1976)   2:54-­‐  Roanoke  in  the  1970s;  discovering  transvestites  downtown;  mother’s  employment   working  with  people  caught  up  in  the  War  on  Drugs     5:22-­‐  experiences  as  a  black  child  growing  up  in  Raleigh  Court  (late  1970s);  an  abusive   stepfather;  having  to  grow  up  real  fast  (early  1980s)     9:21-­‐  getting  a  job  at  The  Park  at  age  thirteen  (c.  1982);  starting  to  work  as  a  transvestite  sex   worker  on  Salem  Avenue  at  age  thirteen  (c.  1982);  prostitution  on  Salem  and  Campbell  Avenues   in  the  1980s;  interactions  with  police  officers   13:14-­‐  Roanoke  Police  Department  Vice  Squad  efforts  to  entrap  sex  workers;  first  arrest  at  age   eighteen  (c.  1987);  losing  a  lover  to  AIDS  (c.  1989);  relationships  with  the  local  media   16:15-­‐  Experiences  in  high  school  (mid-­‐1980s);  bullying  and  violence;  learning  about  self-­‐ protection  from  the  street  queens   20:52-­‐  getting  addicted  to  drugs;  experiencing  rape;  seeking  revenge;  acting  out  in  violence   (late  1980s  –  early  1990s);  becoming  a  bail  collector  /  bounty  hunter   25:26-­‐  description  of  transvestite  sex  work   26:29-­‐  battle  over  Roanoke’s  anti-­‐solicitation  ordinance  (1992-­‐1993);  defending  themself  in   court;  going  to  jail;  diagnosis  of  multiple  sclerosis  (1998)   Part  Two  (4:57)   1     �0:00-­‐  Mother’s  sickness;  returning  to  Christ  and  the  church  (1999)   3:22-­‐  looking  back  on  their  life;  mother’s  death  (1999);  Backstreet  Café  shooting  (2000)   Part  Three  (15:15)   0:00-­‐  working  as  a  bail  collector;  coming  out  to  their  mom  as  a  prostitute;  interactions  with   police     4:17-­‐  Police  brutality  and  intimidation  of  gay  people  in  Roanoke   5:12-­‐  more  police  brutality;  encounters  with  the  criminal  justice  system   7:33-­‐  run-­‐in  with  the  Galax  Police  Department;  getting  barred  from  The  Park  for  life   11:32-­‐  clients  of  prostitution,  including  police  officers   12:25-­‐  working  in  a  brothel  on  Highland  Avenue  that  was  raided  in  1992   13:47-­‐  getting  arrested  at  a  downtown  bar  in  1993     Part  One  (32:05):   0:00   I  grew  up  in  a  little  town  called  Rock  Creek,  North  Carolina.    Before  that  name  was  changed  it   was  the  Township  of  Patterson.    My  great-­‐grandfather,  who  was  the  son  of  a  plantation  owner   and  a  slave,  he  was  the  product  of  the  slave  and  the  plantation  owner.  My  grandmother,  Cora   Patterson,  she  was  the  product  of  a  slave  and  a  plantation  owner,  and  they  were  budding   plantations.    His  name…  well  all  I  ever  knew  him  as  was  “Pop”  Patterson,  but  his  real  name  was   C.B.  Washington  Patterson.  He  was  given  700  acres  of  land  by  his  father  who  owned  the   plantation,  and  she  was  given  500  acres,  and  they  put  it  together  and  made  the  Township  of   Patterson.    I  am  very  proud  that  my  great-­‐grandparents  who  came  out  of  the  slave  era—their   parents  were  slaves—but  they  were  not  because  of  where  they  came  from.    In  the  [19]30s   when  everybody  was  going  through  the  Depression,  their  children  had  been  born  and  their   children  were  allowed  to  go  to  Hampden  and  Sydney  University.  Pop  Patterson  was  the  first   black  Republican  in  North  Carolina.    He  was  a  proud  man,  seven  children,  only  two  of  them  who   died  in  a  car  wreck  did  not  go  to  college.    The  whole  town  worked  as  sharecroppers  for  him.     1:57   I  started  singing  in  the  church  when  I  was  four  years  old.    My  father,  [name  removed  to  protect   privacy],  was  a  singer.  He  went  by  the  name  Prince  Paul  and  the  Swinging  Imperials.  Which   right  now  I’m  trying  to  find  an  attorney  to  represent  him.  His  song  that  he  wrote  for  my  mother   in  the  beginning  was  the  number  one  hit  song  in  India.  They’re  selling  it  on  iTunes  and  Amazon   records.    My  mother  was  a  mental  health  worker.  She  had  been  a  secretary.  I  was  Prince  Paul   and  the  Swinging  Angelic  Angels.  At  four  years  old,  I  sang  in  the  church,  and  I  grew  up  in  the   church.    At  the  age  of  seven  my  mother  moved  me  here  to  Roanoke,  Virginia  away  from  family.     2     �2:54   This  place  was  crazy  when  I  moved  here  in  the  seventies,  in  ‘76.  I  remember  distinctly  riding   down  Campbell  Avenue  and  a  Cadillac  pulling  up  and  all  these  beautiful  women  that  were   extremely  tall  and  looked  like  Amazons  getting  out  of  the  car.  I  asked  my  mom  I  said,  “Mama   what  are  those?”  She  said,  “They  drag  queens,”  and  I  said,  “I  want  to  be  a  queen.”  And  she   smacked  me  all  the  way  in  the  back  seat  of  the  car.  I  thought  because  they  wore  crowns  and   stuff.  I  didn’t  know  that  they  were  transvestites.  Didn’t  know  what  it  was.  My  mother  worked   for  Heighra  House  which  was  a  drug  program,  and  it  was  an  experimental  drug  program  that   the  governor  and  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  and  them  had  gotten  together.  There   were  people  who  had  over  [were  sentenced  to  over]  150  years  that  would  come  to  this  house   that  had  a  drug  problem,  and  they  had  to  stay  there  for  24  months.  If  they  completed  the   program,  then  they  were  released.  They  had  no  guards,  no  guns.  I  was  able  to  learn  a  lot  from   people  who  had  lived  lives  that  was  just  crazy  and  amazing.    One  gentleman  that  I  will  never   forget,  he  was  an  African.  He  had  260  years  for  marijuana.  They  had  sentenced  him  to  that  in   Richmond.    He  had  come  out  from  the  old  prison  called  the  Wall.    Y’all  are  too  young  to   remember  the  downtown  prison  in  Richmond.    It  was  there  since  the  Civil  War  days.    It  was   amazing  to  me.    I  went  to  school.    I  was  the  first  black  kid  to  live  in  [the]  Raleigh  Court  area.    My   mother  having  a  job,  making  16,000  dollars  a  year  in  1976,  that’s  what  bank  presidents  made.     She  was  appointed  to  the  Board  of  Behavioral  Sciences  by  Governor  Robb.       5:22   I  was  a  latch-­‐key  kid.    My  mother  started  a  black  women’s  group,  so  mama  left  for  work  at  8:30   in  the  morning  but  she  didn’t  get  home  until  10  o’clock  at  night.    So  I  had  to  be  in  bed.    It  was   just  me  and  her.    I  grew  up  in  El  Ray  apartments.    There  were  no  other  black  people  there.    I   take  that  back,  there  was  one,  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy].  He  was  on  Channel  7.  But  as   far  as  children  go.      Then  the  government  started  doing  section  eight,  and  some  of  the   apartments  around  us  started  having  children.    I  was  a  smaller  child.    I’m  not  now,  but  I  was   then.    I  started  getting  picked  on,  all  through  school.    My  friends  were  in  Virginia  Heights,  and   because  I  was  black  they  moved  me  over  to  Raleigh  Court  which  was  way  farther  from  my   house.    I  could  have  walked  from  my  house  to  school  if  I  wanted  to,  but  they  put  me  over  in   Grandin  Court.    Then  when  I  rode  the  bus,  the  bus  would  take  me  to  Virginia  Heights  and  then   take  me  home.    Didn’t  make  sense  to  me.    So,  life  was  good.    Around  the  age  of  12  years  old  my   mother  met  a  man  by  the  name  of  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy],  who  is  dead.    Thank  God.     My  mother,  he  beat  her  real  bad  one  night.    A  Roanoke  City  police  officer—who  just  recently  I   forced  the  city  to  retire  him—I  was  12  years  old,  he  said,  “The  black  bitch  deserves  it  if  she’s   stupid  enough  to  stay  with  him.”    He  had  beat  my  mama,  pulled  a  bed  post  off  and  beat  my   mother  unmercifully  till  the  point  where  she  was  never  able  to  go  back  to  work  again.    Before   then  he  had  molested  my  girlfriend,  who  went  to  North  Cross.    My  mother  would  be  in  the   hospital…  she  would  have  to  go  to  the  hospital.    She  stayed  there  for  a  whole  year  at  a  time,   but  just  when  the  year  got  to  break  she  would  come  home  for  a  week  so  her  major  medical   wouldn’t  run  out.    She  had  put  in  for  disability  and  they  wouldn’t  give  it  to  her  and  I  went   through  that  for  a  number  of  years.    By  the  time  I  was  13  years  old  my  grandmother  who  came   up  and  helped  raise  me,  she  passed  away  with  pancreatic  cancer,  and  it  just  left  me  in  the   3     �house  with  the  child  molester.    I  used  to  drive  a  car  at  the  age  of  13  to  get  back  and  forth  to   Community  Hospital  or  Lewis  Gale,  whichever  one  mama  was  in.    I  was  like  an  adult.    Some  of   my  teachers  knew.    They  knew  that  I  was  at  home  by  myself,  but  because  of  who  my  mother   was  they  didn’t  call  social  services  to  have  me  taken  away.    It  got  to  the  point  to  where  we  were   about  to  lose  our  home.  The  police  had  been  there  so  many  times.    Our  Deputy  Chief  of  Police   [name  removed  to  protect  privacy],  I  remember  the  first  day  that  he  worked.    My  childhood  is   one  that  I  try  to  forget,  but  it’s  ever  before  me.       9:21   I  was  riding  around  with  some  friends  on  Salem  Avenue  when  we  ran  across  the  transvestites,   and  being  13  years  old  I  had  lied  about  how  old  I  was.    I  had  to  have  proof  so  I  got  fired  at   Burger  King  for  not  being  old  enough  to  work  there.    I  went  to  work  at  the  bar  that  they  call  The   Park.    I  got  paid  $20  a  night  to  pick  up  beer  bottles.    That  was  not  enough.    The  house  payment   was  $240,  the  car  payment  was  $100  a  month,  and  my  mother’s  medication  if  she  was  at  home   was  $300  a  month,  and  they  didn’t  pay  for  that.  I  met  a  person  that  I  call  my  saving  grace.     When  I  preach  today  I  still  talk  about  my  friend  better  known  as  Miss  Grace.    Miss  Grace  was   [name  removed  to  protect  privacy].    Miss  Grace  was  our  second  Roanoke-­‐at-­‐large  because  they   cheated  her  out  of  it  the  first  time.    She  was  about  6’8”  and  at  that  time  she  weighed  about   240lbs;  she  weighs  about  500  now.    I  started  out  and  she  kind  of  gave  me  pointers  and  made   sure  that  I  didn’t  get  hurt.    I  was  13  years  old  at  that  time.    It’s  a  hard  time  to  go  back,  because   in  the  ‘80s  that’s  when  AIDS  first  came  out.    There  were  35  to  40  transvestites  that  was  all  up   and  down  Salem  Avenue.    The  men  could  tell  who  was  the  real  prostitutes;  the  women  [looked]   different  from  the  men  because  the  transvestites  actually  dressed  better.    They  dressed  better,   they  looked  better.    They  were  clean,  they  were  not  dirty.    What  I  mean  by  that  is  I  mean  you   could  never  find  a  transvestite  in  dirty  clothes,  but  the  real  prostitutes  you  could.    They  usually   worked  on  Campbell  Avenue.    I  ended  up  moving  from  Salem  Avenue  down  to  Campbell   Avenue  where  the  real  women  work  because  I  could  make  more  money.    My  mother  had   applied  for  disability  from  her  job  and  she  had  applied  for  Social  Security.    It  took  her  8  or  9   years  to  get  it.    I  was  raised  up  in  streets  by  my  friend  Miss  Grace.    Like  I  said  it’s  not  something   that’s  easy  to  talk  about.    Over  the  years,  I  had  to  deal  with  a  whole  lot  of  stuff,  but  it  caused   police  officers…  there  were  some  who  thought  that  I  was  very  beautiful.    I  think  I  have  some   pictures.    I  got  rid  of  most  of  my  pictures  because  of  my  children.   [5  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]     I  didn’t  have  sex  for  free.    I  charged  more  than  anybody  else.    I  learned  something  when  I  was   younger  by  coming  from  a  family  that  had  money.    If  it  cost  more,  it  must  be  better.    That’s  why   I  charged  more  than  anybody  else.       13:14   Anyway,  when  I  was  18  I  was  arrested  for  prostitution  by  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy].    I   can’t  believe  that  I  can  remember  his  name  it’s  been  that  long  ago.    But  I  never  quoted  him  a   price  or  anything.    The  [Roanoke  Police  Department]  vice  [squad]  was  heavy.    The  police  was   always  trying  to  take  us  to  jail.    Even  for  stuff  that  we  didn’t  do.    He  arrested  me  and  they  were   4     �going  to  take  me  to  jail,  but  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  knew  who  I  was,  our  Deputy   Chief.    He  said,  “just  write  him  a  summons.”    I  had  got  a  job  at  the  age  of  18.    I  was  the  first  18-­‐ year-­‐old  in  the  state  of  Virginia  licensed  to  carry  a  handgun  by  the  Department  of  Commerce,   Law  Enforcement  Division.    I  was  an  armed  security  officer.    My  mother  and  I  drove  to   Richmond  to  get  my  license.    That  was  the  quickest  way  to  get  it.    I  was  working  part  time  as  a   prostitute,  and  I  was  working  full  time  as  a  security  officer.    And  I  was  working  80  hours  a  week.     Back  then  security  guards  didn’t  make  but  $3.35  an  hour.    I  rose  through  the  ranks  to  where  I   was  a  lieutenant  and  a  captain  and  I  made  $5  an  hour.    I  would  have  all  this  overtime,  but  I  still   stayed  out  in  the  streets.    Being  out  in  the  streets,  I  ran  into  politicians,  lawyers,  doctors.   [38  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I  was  a  target  for  the  police  department.    There  were  people  who  wanted  me  gone.  At  the  age   of  20,  my  first  lover  John  died  of  AIDS,  and  I  lost  my  mind.    Crack  cocaine  had  just  come  out  at   that  time,  and  I  was  not  part  of  the  drug  scene.    Before  that  I  had  done  exposes  for  Channel  10,   [name  removed  to  protect  privacy].    God  how  do  I  remember  this  name?    I  showed  her  where   prostitutes  would  take  their  people.    I  made  a  statement  one  time  on  TV.    I  said,  “It’s  funny  up   there  in  the  big  tall  buildings,  they  call  them  affairs,  but  down  here  they  call  it  prostitution.”    I   got  to  the  point  where  I  just  wasn’t  going  to  be  bullied  anymore.       16:15   But  when  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  arrested  me,  I  could  barely  read.    I  was  in  school.    I   guess  that’s  the  part  I  left  out.    I  had  been  sent  from  Patrick  Henry  to  William  Fleming  because  I   lived  in  William  Fleming’s  district.    A  young  man  whose  life  I  saved  when  we  were  in  boy   scouts—we  were  on  a  scouting  trip  and  the  young  man  got  raped  by  other  boys,  and  I  attended   to  him  as  the  chaplain  and  the  first-­‐aid  guy.  I  knew  his  pain.    One  of  the  guys  that  I  saved,  he   jumped  out  of  the  canoe  like  a  dummy.    He  could  barely  swim,  and  he  almost  died.    I  pulled  him   up  to  the  bank,  and  got  him  out  of  it.  He  turned  around,  and  he  and  another  boy  by  the  name   of  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]…    I  was  in  ROTC  [Reserve  Officers’  Training  Corps]  which   was  the  only  thing  that  brought  me  joy  in  school.    I  was  a  Captain,  and  then  I  went  up  to   Lieutenant  Colonel.    So,  I  was  the  big  guy  on  campus  in  ROTC.    And  these  guys  robbed  me…  I   started  baking  brownies  for  the  ROTC  to  raise  money  for  them.    These  guys  robbed  me  because   they  knew  I  had  been  on  Salem  Avenue.    They  robbed  me  of  300  dollars.  And  300  dollars  back   in  1985  was  a  lot  of  money.    I  went  and  told  the  dean.    He  said,  “They  stole  your  brownies?”   [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  who  was  the  principal,  was  a  good  friend  of  mine.    He  had   been  my  principal  in  junior  high  school.    I  went  out  to  my  car.   [Several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   The  transvestites  used  to  carry  hammers  and  things  of  that  nature,  so  they  didn’t  get  charged   with  carrying  a  concealed  weapon.  It’s  a  tool.    I  had  been  taught  by  them,  and  raised  by  them   out  in  the  streets.    As  a  Christian,  I  was  angry  because  the  God  I  had  been  told  about,  that  I   served,  was  never  going  to  let  nothing  like  this  happen  to  me.    However,  I  went  and  told  my   mother  about  one  night  the  devil  and  the  lord  got  to  fighting.    I  was  9  years  old.  This  is  before   this  mean  man  came  into  our  life.    I  told  my  mama.  “Mama,”  I  said,  “Jesus  won,  and  he  told  me   5     �that  he  was  gonna  always  be  with  me  no  matter  what.”    I  said,  “So,  I  know  I’m  saved,  and  I’m   alright.”    Then  the  devil  stepped  into  my  life,  this  man,  who  my  mother  loved.    I  could  never   understand  why.    She  had  empowered  black  women  through  her  group  not  to  stay  with  men   that  beat  on  you.    Yet,  still  she  stayed  with  him.    She  ended  up  shooting  him.    I  was  whisked  off   to  North  Carolina  for  school.    I  was  only  down  there  for  a  month,  and  then  I  got  kicked  out  of   school  for  being  smarter  than  some  of  the  teachers.    I  was  not  that  smart.    It  was  just  that   North  Carolina  schools  were  on  a  different  level  than  we  were.    We  took  physical  science  and   we  took  biology  in  7th  grade  and  8th  grade.    Well,  physical  science  was  a  12th  grade  class  for   them.    I  already  had  it.    So,  I  grew  up  a  pretty  rough  life.    There  were  times  when  I  did  not  have   food  to  eat,  and  my  mother  was  in  the  hospital,  but  I  made  it.    People  ask  me  all  the  time,  do  I   regret  what  happened  to  me  in  my  life.    I  tell  them  I  don’t  regret  anything  that  I’ve  done.    I   regret  that  I  was  lied  on  and  put  in  jail  for  crimes  I  didn’t  commit.       [3  minutes  and  19  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   20:52   I  had  caught  some  easy  breaks,  but  when  I  got  to  the  age  of  19  to  23  it  was  the  worst  time  of   my  life.    My  friends  were  all  dying  with  AIDS.    I  got  strung  out  on  drugs  for  approximately  a   year.    I  smoked  up  343,000  dollars  worth  of  drugs.    That  is  something  I  never  told  anybody.    My   mother  said  to  me—she  was  getting  Social  Security  and  stuff  by  then—she  said  “I  don’t  want  to   see  you  again  until  you  get  off  that…”—she  didn’t  say  “mess,”  she  said  “shit.”    My  mother  was   the  most  important  thing  to  me  in  my  life.    That’s  how  I  overcame  drug  addiction.    I  got  on  my   knees  and  I  said  “Lord,  I  haven’t  talked  to  you  in  years,  but  if  you’re  real,  take  this  from  me.”    I   love  my  mother.    My  mother  had  me  put  out  at  the  age  of  18.    Same  man  that  raped  me.    The   first  time  I  ever  went  to  jail—I  guess  I  left  that  out—I  was  at  the  house.    I  had  my  own  place   then  after  she  had  me  put  out.    And  he  was  there.    We  were  playing  cards,  and  he  walked  in.     This  man  had  bullied  me  all  my  life.    He  backhanded  me,  he  slapped  me,  and  I  told  him,  you   know,  “that  was  okay  when  I  was  younger.    I’m  older  now.”    I  told  mama,  I  said,  “I’m  gonna  kill   him.”    I  went  out  the  front  door.    She  locked  all  the  doors.    What  she  didn’t  know  was  the   window  to  my  old  bedroom  wasn’t  locked.    And  I  came  through  the  window.     [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]     I  was  going  to  shoot  him.    And  I  told  him  you’re  not  worth  shooting.       [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   My  mother  knew  my  temper.  When  the  police  came…   [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   They  didn’t  like  him  anyway.    So,  they  weren’t  going  to  take  me  to  jail  for  beating  him.    My   mother  said  he  pushed  me  to  get  to  him.    They  locked  me  up  for  assaulting  my  mother.    I  didn’t   realize.    I  would  never  push  my  mother  on  purpose.    I  went  to  jail,  and  I  was  there  for  3  or  4   days.    Of  course,  I  was  going  to  lose  my  job.    I  was  working  as  a  security  guard  then.    The   greatest  man  I  ever  knew  came  and  got  me.    He  just  died  four  months  ago.    I  worked  for  him  at   Lakeside  [Amusement  Park].  His  name  was  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy].    They  called  him   6     �Rodger  Rabbit,  the  Lakeside  family.    I  ended  up  being  the  president  of  the  company.    Which  was   a  real  laugh  because  his  daddy  hated  black  people  and  people  who  were  not  gentiles.    I  have   the  sign  in  my  home  that  says  “Gentiles  only,  Lakeside.”    They  would  only  let  the  black  people   swim  in  the  pool  on  the  last  day.    Then  they’d  drain  it  and  wash  it  with  Clorox.       [Several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   But  his  mama  said  if  we  let  him  go  he’ll  kill  this  man.    Which  I  probably  would  have.    He  told   Rodger,  he  says  he  knows  everybody…   [Several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I  didn’t  have  any  money.  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  got  me  out  of  jail,  and  said  to  me   “how  would  you  like  to  work  for  me?”    I  said,  “well,  what  do  I  need  to  do?”    He  said  “well,  I’m   looking  for  this  woman  that  jumped  bond.”    I  said  “I  can  find  her  in  an  hour.”    He  said  “yeah   right.”    I  said  “no,  I  can  find  her  in  an  hour.    I  assure  you  I’ll  find  her  within  an  hour.”    So,  he   bonded  me  out  of  jail.    I  found  her.    Not  only  did  I  not  pay  him,  but  he  gave  me  500  dollars.    500   dollars  was  a  lot  of  money,  but  I  had  actually  made  more  than  that.       25:26   I  used  to  charge  250  dollars  an  hour.    I  had  a  room  in  the  Patrick  Henry  [Hotel]  up  near  the  top.     They  had  apartments  up  there.  But  I  kept  a  room  at  Thrifty  Inn  because  that’s  where  all  the   prostitutes  were.    I  had  this  thing  about  me.    I  got  so  I  wouldn’t  just  go  out  with  anybody.    I  had   guns  pulled  on  me.    Knives  pulled  on  me.       [56  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I  had  baby  fat.    It’s  like  now  I  can’t  get  rid  of  it.    I  didn’t  wear  fake  boobs.    I  had  a  nice  shape  and   I  had  a  pretty  face.    I  had  long  hair.    I  used  to  laugh  and  say  “my  mama  said  never  trust  a  big   butt  and  a  smile.”    I  would  tell  them  this  before  I  got  in  the  car  with  them.       [3  minutes  and  12  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   26:29   Just  imagine  all  of  your  friends  are  dying  and  then  the  city  comes  up  with  the  thing  that  I  guess   made  me  a  little  famous.    They  came  up  with  the  city  solicitation  ordinance.    They  came  up  with   it  to  only  get  transvestite  and  homosexual  men  in  trouble.    They  wrote  up  a  law  that  says  that   anybody  who  for  the  purposes  of  having  sex  takes  anything  in  consideration  shall  be  guilty  of  a   first  class  misdemeanor,  violation  of  the  city  ordinance.    When  they  actually  adopted  this  law,  I   was  at  City  Council  meeting  that  night,  and  I  was  dressed  as  a  boy,  and  I  said  to  them  “y’all  can’t   do  that.”    They  said  “[name  removed  to  protect  privacy],  you  need  to  sit  down  and  be  quiet.”    [I]   said,  “look,  I’m  a  registered  voter.    I  have  a  right  to  talk.”    I  said  “you  can’t  take  out  an  element   of  a  crime.”    I’m  not  a  lawyer,  but  any  idiot  that’s  ever  did  anything  with  law  knows  you  have  to   prove  all  the  elements.    They  convicted  387  people  on  that.    I  was  the  388th  one.    I  was  the  very   last  one  that  they  had  to  come  to  court  on  it.    They  gave  me  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy],   who’s  a  tax  attorney.       7     �[Several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   Never.    They  appointed  him.    We  laugh  about  it  when  I  run  into  him  at  the  bank.    I  told  him   “Stick  with  me  boy  and  I’m  going  to  make  you  famous.”    There’s  a  picture  of  me  on  the  steps  of   the  courthouse  holding  my  briefcase.    I  actually  wrote  the  legal  brief  that  told  [name  removed   to  protect  privacy],  a  judge  who  had  always  put  me  in  jail…     [1  minute  and  48  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I  said  “judge,  if  you  remember,  I  wrote  the  paper  for  Sterling  Preston  v.  Commonwealth  where   you  were  the  judge  and  you  found  Mr.  Preston  guilty  for  violation  of  probation  simply  because   he  had  been  arrested.    And  his  prostitution  charge  he  was  found  not  guilty  of.    You  had  already   violated  his  probation.    So  don’t  tell  me  I  can’t  appeal  something.”    I  said  “and  the  nice  thing   about  it  is  you  might  as  well  give  me  a  bond,  because  if  you  don’t  I’m  going  to  appeal  that.    I’m   not  going  to  sit  over  in  the  jail  for  36  months.”    He  said  “what  are  your  grounds  for  appeal?”    I   said  “abuse  of  judge’s  discretion.”    He  said  “ain’t  nobody  used  that  since  1922.”  I  said  “yeah,  I   know.  Ain’t  it  nice  that  I  came  up  with  it.”    [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  was  sitting  there.     [He]  was  the  coolest  lawyer  ever.    He  was  a  man  that  was  trapped  from  the  [19]60s.    He’s  in   charge  of  capital  murder  cases  now.    That’s  all  he  does.  He  left  the  Office  of  Public  Defender.  He   is  the  Public  Defender  of  all  the  capital  murder  cases.    He  was  fascinated  with  the  transvestites   not  like  he  sexually  wanted  us.    Just  the  coolness  of  it  and  the  nuance  of  it.    The  transvestites   used  to  hang  out  in  front  of  Billy’s  Ritz.    That’s  what  made  Billy’s  Ritz  so  much  money.    People   watching  them  get  in  cars  and  this  that  and  the  other.    I  came  up  with  the  deal  with  the  Chief  of   Police,  who’s  dead  now,  which  said  if  you  will  let  me  have  a  free  hand  I  will  kill  prostitution  in   the  City  of  Roanoke.    To  make  a  long  story  short  I  was  able  to  write  the  brief  which  got  rid  of   the  city  solicitation  ordinance.    Then  I  appealed  my  case  to  the  appeals  court.    I  knew  I  wasn’t   going  to  win,  but  I  knew  it  would  keep  me  out  of  jail  for  two  years.    Then  I  appealed  it  to  the   Supreme  Court  which  I  knew  would  give  me  another  two  years.    When  I  came  back  before   [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  his  heart  had  been  changed,  but  he  still  gave  me  the  time.     He  said  “what’s  the  difference  between  now  and  then?”  I  said  “Judge,  if  you’re  asking  me  why   should  you  not  give  me  the  time  cause  I’m  not  that  person  that  I  was  when  the  crimes  were   committed.”    I  said  “we  all  know  that  I  didn’t  commit  the  crime.”    He  gave  me  my  time.    I  went   to  jail.       [21  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  [The  judge]  did  what  he  called  judicial  manipulation,  and   ended  up  letting  me  out  of  jail.    This  is  after  I  had  been  in  deep  isolation  for  261  days.    This  is   after  I  had  been  told  “weren’t  no  faggot  niggers  going  to  vote  in  the  jail.”    And  my  absentee   ballot  was  ripped  up.    I  just  got  tired  of  fighting.    When  I  got  out  of  jail  Mr.  Roberts  gave  me  a   job  of  being  a  bounty  hunter.    The  state  didn’t  regulate  it.    It  was  under  federal  law.    I  wasn’t  a   convicted  felon.    I  put  a  badge  on  my  shirt,  put  a  gun  on  my  hip,  and  I  started  arresting  people   who  jumped  bond.    In  1998—December  28th,  1998—I  had  been  diagnosed  with  multiple   sclerosis.    I  had  an  inoperable  tumor  in  my  cerebellum.    The  doctor  told  me  to  call  my  mother   and  ask  if  I  could  come  and  stay  with  her,  because  I  wasn’t  going  to  be  able  to  take  care  of   myself.       8     �32:05   [The  narrator  asks  for  the  recorder  to  be  turned  off  when  someone  enters  the  room.    This  ends   part  one  of  the  interview.]           Part  Two  (4:57)     00:00   [The  recorder  is  turned  back  on  after  a  pause  of  about  two  minutes.    The  narrator  is  now   speaking  about  the  spring  of  1999.]   And  then  on  March  14  [1999]  my  best  friend  Lee,  he  died,  complications  of  AIDS,  and  then  the   next  day  my  mother  called  me  and  told  me  the  apocalypse  was  upon  us,  it  was  time  for  me  to   get  right.  The  part  I  didn’t  tell  you  was  my  mother  was  on  a  ventilator,  she  had  been  asked  not   to  be  kept  alive  by  machines.  They  went  in  to  remove  one  blockage  from  her  heart;  she  had   four  instead  of  one.  And  so  when  I  was  told  at  Rex  Hospital  that  they  were  gonna  cut  off  the   ventilator,  I  told  the  doctor  that  if  he  did  I  was  gonna  cut  his  off.  [name  removed  to  protect   privacy]  who  was  a  Circuit  Court  Judge,  was  my  friend,  he  had  became  my  friend  because  he   got  tired  of  seeing  me  in  General  District  Court,  and  he  actually  offered  to  pay  for  me  to  go  to   law  school,  if  I  would  go.  I  refused.  I  said  “I  want  to  go  to  heaven.  I  don’t  wanna  go  to  law   school.  Lawyers  ain’t  nothing  but  a  bunch  of  liars.  You  can’t  lie  and  go  to  heaven.”  Everybody   thought  that  was  strange,  but  it  was  true.  He  had  seen  how  I  had  been  mistreated  over  the   years,  and  he  didn’t  like  it  very  much.      [Several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   Judge  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  was  a  judge  who  hated  my  guts,  but  when  my  mother   passed  away  it  all  changed.  He  saw  that  I  had  taken  up  the  cross  for  Christ  for  real.  I  prayed  a   prayer  one  night.  They  only  gave  me  two  weeks  before—they  didn’t  care  what  I  did—they  were   gonna  pull  the  plug  on  my  mom,  and  I  said  “Lord,  if  you  will  let  my  mother  walk  out  of  this   hospital,  I  will  quit  drinking,  I  will  stop  using  the  G-­‐D  word,  I  will  serve  you  every  time  that  the   church  is  open.”  I  had  been  to  school  to  become  a  preacher.  I  had  been  in  church  for  most  of   my  life.  I  got  thrown  out  of  church  when  I  was  15  years  old  because  somebody  had  seen  me   going  to  The  Park,  so  this  was  my  way  to  make  it  back  to  the  church.  Within  saying  that  prayer,   three  days,  my  mother  was  off  the  ventilator,  oxygen  in  her  nose,  drinking  a  Pepsi-­‐Cola,  and   cussing  my  name.  My  brother  is  a  witness  to  this.  My  mother  said  to  me,  “I  don’t  know  why  you   brought  me  back  down  here.  I  did  not  leave  you  any  money.  I  was  in  heaven  and  I  was  satisfied   with  my  parents,  and  you  called  me  back  down  here.”  She  said  “don’t  base  your  salvation  on   me  because  I  will  fail  you.”  She  said,  “you  base  your  salvation  on  the  Lord  cause  he  won’t.”  That   told  me  two  things:  heaven  was  real,  and  God  would  honor  what  he  said.     3:22   9     �I’d  had  a  wonderful  career.  I  had  went  from  the  whorehouse  to  the  courthouse  to  God’s  house.   [I’m]  in  the  middle  of  writing  a  book,  that’s  the  name  of  it:  Cries  of  a  Child,  Tears  of  a  Man:   From  the  Whorehouse  to  the  Courthouse  to  God’s  House.  Another  book  is  gonna  be  called  Small   Town  Justice:  Sex,  Lies,  No  Videotape,  Just  Rumors.  I  didn’t  tell  you  that  I  worked  for  [name   removed  to  protect  privacy]  when  I  was  13  years  old.  See,  I  tried  all  the  legitimate  ways  of   making  money,  but  nothing  made  money  like  being  a  prostitute.  You  know,  you  don’t  see  it   anymore  in  the  streets.   [32  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   That’s  what  happened.  And  so,  momma  called  me—I  told  you  my  friend  Lee  died  on  March   14th,  1999—my  mother  died  March  15th,  1999.  My  grandfather  had  just  passed  away.  I  couldn’t   deal  with  anymore.  And  then  my  friend  Danny  Overstreet,  the  Roanoke  Seven…  I  was  supposed   to  be  there  that  night  [at  Backstreet  Café]  when  Ronald  Gay  came  in.  Ronald  Gay  came  in  and  I   told  Danny  I’d  be  there  because  I  was  doing  guard  work  at  the  old  Iroquois,  which  was  the   ghost  of  Hollywood,  and  I  overslept.  I’ve  always  felt  bad  because  if  I  had  not  overslept,  Ronald   Gay  would  not  have  killed  my  friend.     [20  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   4:57   [Recorder  paused  briefly  after  the  door  opens  and  someone  enters  the  room.  Ending  part  two  of   the  interview.]     Part  Three  (15:15)   00:00   [The  recorder  is  turned  back  on  after  visitor  leaves  room  and  the  door  is  shut.  Begins  part  three,   the  final  part  of  this  interview.  The  narrator  continues  their  story]   And  my  mother—my  mother  passed  away  on  March  15th  [1999].  I  had  a  prisoner  that  I  had   taken  to  Richmond,  and  momma  called  me  on  the  day  that  she  died,  and  she  said  what  I  had   told  you  about  the  apocalypse  is  upon  us.  I  had  the  first  StarTACs  in  the  state  of  Virginia,  that’s   a  cell  phone  that  you  would  never  recognize.  Back  in  the  old  days  people  had  those  huge   phones,  well  our  phones  were  that  big.  That’s  why  they  called  them  StarTACs,  and  they  flipped   over.  They  only  had  an  hour  life  talk-­‐time,  and  you  could  put  the  extra  big  battery  on  the  back   that  gave  you  three  hours,  and  that  was  like  supposed  to  be  great.  1200  dollars  apiece.  I  had  a   cord  in  my  ear  and  I’m  talking  to  my  mom,  while  I’m  walking  up  on  this  Jamaican  guy  who  was   wanted  in  Richmond  for  jumping  bond.  2500  dollars  was  gonna  go  in  my  pocket.  I  looked  at   people  as  people,  but  I  looked  at  the  money—but  in  all  the  years  that  I  arrested  people…  2,339.   I  held  the  record.  They  actually  kept  records  of  it.  I  only  had  one  complaint,  and  the  guy  was  a   snitch  for  the  police,  and  I  didn’t  have  much  choice,  he  was  also  gay.  And  every  time  I  turned   10     �around,  I’d  do  something  to  help  the  gay  people,  [and]  they’d  throw  me  under  the  bus.  I   remember  what  my  mother  said  when  she  found  out.  One  of  her  friends  called  her  and  told  her   that  her  son  was  a  “street  walker.”  She  took  on  down  there  to  find  me,  but  she  couldn’t  find   me.  Momma  threw  me  out.  I  was  16  then,  but  she  let  me  come  back.  She  threw  me  out,  I  was   gone  for  about  three  days,  and  she  said  “why?”  and  I  said  “somebody  had  to  pay  the  bills.”  And   it  broke  her  heart.  It  broke  her  heart.  When  her  boyfriend  molested  me  I  told  her,  she  was  in   the  hospital.  At  first  she  was  angry,  then  she  wouldn’t  believe  me.  But  when  I  was  24  and  he   was  in  the  hospital  dying,  she  begged  me  to  come  get  her,  and  I  took  her  to  Roanoke  Memorial   Hospital  to  see  him.     [20  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   But  God  is  always…  people  who  have  done  me  wrong,  God  takes  care  of  them.  For  the   Lieutenant  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  who  put  me  in  deep  isolation  and  came  and  got   me  and  said  “you’ve  been  in  here  261  days  you  faggot  nigger,  how  does  it  feel?”  I  said  that  “I   felt  like  I  just  got  here  yesterday,”  and  it  just  cracked  his  face.  But  the  one  thing  that  really  got   him  was  this.  His  beautiful  blonde-­‐headed  baby,  the  daughter  that  he  had,  his  son  was  nothing,   his  son  was  terrible,  but  his  daughter  was  his  heart.     [Several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   He  actually  made  it  through  the  heart  attack,  and  he  wouldn’t  be  bothered  with  them  at  first,   but  when  they  got  to  kindergarten  and  first  grade  they  on  his  knee.  I  saw  him  in  an  assembly   with  them  on  his  knee,  and  he  was  the  grandpa  then,  and  I  just  laughed.  I  had  to  laugh.  Half  of   my  family  is  white,  you  know.  God  has  always  made  it  so  that  when  people  did  me  wrong,  He   did  me  right.  I  was  not  smart  enough  to  get  out  all  of  the  cases  that  I  did,  but  the  thing  about  it   is  that  God  put  people  in  my  life.   [2  minutes  and  34  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   4:17   Over  the  years  I  had  been  beaten  severely…     [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   …  by  a  policeman.     [32  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I’ll  show  you  how  much  they  stood  behind  each  other.  They  were  gonna  fire  him,  but  they   didn’t.   [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   And  they  gave  me  a  polygraph  and  told  me  I  didn’t  even  pass  my  own  name.  Said  I  didn’t  even   get  my  own  name  right!  They’ll  tell  you  anything.  Yeah,  that’s  what  gay  people  had  to  deal  with.   11     �Of  course  some  of  the  stuff  that  they  did  was  their  own  problems  too.  I  never  went  into  the   bookstore  to  have  sex  with  somebody.  If  I  was  gonna  have  sex  it’d  be  in  my  house  or  in  my   hotel  room.  You  know,  people  don’t  wanna  see  that  mess.  I  have  raised  25  children  that  are  not   mine  that  were  gay  that  people  threw  away.     [1  minute  and  25  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   5:12   I  really  went  through  a  whole  lot.  I  was  sitting  beside  my  mother  and  Officer  [name  removed  to   protect  privacy]  came  up  to  me.  Like  I  told  you  my  momma  was  my  greatest  love,  and  he  asked   me  where  was  my  red  dress  at?  And  I  said  “your  daddy  bought  it  you  short-­‐sawed-­‐off  S.o.B.   [son  of  a  bitch].”  He  said  “you’re  under  arrest.”  I  said  “what  for?”  He  said  “threatening  a  police   officer.”  I  said  “you  better  not  put  your  hands  on  me.”  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  is   dead  now,  but  [he]  was  the  black  judge  of  Roanoke  County.  He  would  never  pay  his  paper  bill.  I   was  his  paper  boy.  Never  paid  his  bill.    He  and  my  mom  were  friends,  and  he  knew  how  bad  I   needed  the  money.  But  he  wasn’t  a  good  guy,  he  always  found  me  guilty  every  time  I  come  in   his  courtroom.  The  officer  grabbed  me.   [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   And  I  noticed  that  I  had  all  these  police  officers  and  deputies  on  me,  but  nobody  was  trying  to   hurt  me.  They  let  me  hurt  the  one  upon  me,  because  nobody  liked  him.  Then  he  handcuffed   me.  And  there  used  to  be  a  crosswalk  between  the  courthouse  and  the  old  police  station,  that’s   gone  now.   [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   Got  me  down  to  the  magistrate’s  office,  and  the  magistrate  didn’t  even  like  it.  The  magistrate   told  him  [the  officer]  to  leave  the  room,  and  he  told  me,  he  said  “when  you  come  back  down   from  court  I’m  gonna  PR  you.”  I  said  “okay.”  I  said,  “he  threw  me  down  a  flight  of  steps.”  He   said  “I  can  tell.  I  can  tell.”     [1  minute  and  13  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I’m  not  that  bad  of  a  person,  but  the  courthouse  has  always  had  the  deck  stacked  against  gay   people.  I  didn’t  carry  myself  as  one,  but  I’d  be  damned  if  I  was  gonna  let  anybody  pick  on  one.   My  best  friend  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  died  beside  me.  His  father  was  one  of  the   wealthiest  men  in  the  city,  and  because  his  son  had  AIDS  and  he  was  gay.   [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   And  his  daddy  knew  it,  he  wouldn’t  do  anything  for  him.  Until  I  went  to  him,  and  I  raised  a   whole  lot  of  hell.  Then  he  turned  around  and  he  decided  to  get  his  son  an  apartment  next  door   to  me  so  that  I  could  take  care  of  him.     12     �7:33   So,  I’ve  been  through  a  lot.  It  has  been  a  horrible….my  child  life  was  horrible,  but  my  adult  life   has  gotten  better.  Just  here  recently,  two  and  a  half  weeks  ago,  I  filed  a  lawsuit  against  the   Galax  Police  Department  for  three  million  dollars,  for  arresting  me  because  they  claimed  that  I   had  a  protective  order,  and  they  knew  that  I  did  not  have  a  protective  order.  They  were  told  by   Roanoke  City  that  I  did  not  have  a  protective  order,  and  they  still  arrested  me.  I  had  a  torn   rotator  cuff,  and  they  arrested  me,  put  my  hands  behind  my  back.  Took  me  down  to  the  jail  on   a  Sunday  morning.  I  was  supposed  to  preach.  Now  what  they  don’t  know  is  the  law  still  stands   that  you’re  not  allowed  to  arrest  a  preacher  on  a  Sunday  morning.  Did  you  know  that?  That’s  an   old  law,  still  on  the  books,  especially  you  can’t  arrest  him  for  a  misdemeanor.  For  a  felony,  yes.   Not  just  that,  but  I  hadn’t  committed  a  crime.  The  police  department  had  made  a  mistake  in  the   paperwork.  Had  a  young  lady  allowed  me.  Every  time  I’ve  ever  gotten  in  trouble  is  cause   somebody  lied.  I  learned  that  people’s  perception  of  their  reality….  They  turned  around  and   took  me  down  to  the  jail  after  being  told  by  the  chief  of  police,  even  after  state  police  had  told   them  I  didn’t  have  a  protective  order,  for  wearing  this  gun.  Here  was  the  thing  about  it:  nobody   ever  pulled  me  over.  I  never  saw  a  police  officer.  I  was  going  through  my  divorce,  but  I  didn’t   have  no  gun.  I  wasn’t  even  in  town  on  the  day  that  they  claimed  I  was  wearing  the  gun,  and   they  said  it.  I  was  actually  in  another  city  protecting  a  judge.  Now  how  does  that  sound?  Yeah,  I   didn’t  even  know  the  officer  that  got  the  warrant  for  me.  And  then  the  other  officer  who  got   the  warrant  for  me,  I  didn’t  have  no  gun  that  night,  and  I’ve  got  five  witnesses.     [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   Carrying  on,  and  I  still  went  down  and  prayed  for  them.  All  the  black  preachers  came  down  and   prayed  for  all  the  white  police  officers,  cause  they  didn’t  have  no  blacks  on  the  Galax  police   department.  The  one  that  they  had  they  got  rid  of.  They’ve  got  a  Mexican  now.  This  stuff  is   gonna  always  be  around.  I  used  to  think  it  was  because,  they  say,  “well,  cause  you’re  gay.”  It   ain’t  because  you’re  gay!  It’s  because  people  [are]  just  mean.  The  thing  that  really  flipped  my   wig:  gay  people  have  got  it  better  than  they  ever  had  it  before,  and  they  still  want  to  push.  I   was  barred  from  The  Park  for  life,  ten  times,  ten  different  times.  The  owners,  same  owner  who   barred  me  for  life,  I  get  barred  for  life,  barred  for  life…  every  time  I  helped  open  up  a  gay  bar   somewhere  else,  I  wasn’t  barred  for  life  no  more,  you  know.  So…it’s…  I  don’t  know.     [43  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   11:32   In  the  ‘80s  and  the  ‘90s,  if  it  hadn’t  of  been  for  AIDS…  this  city  was  so  corrupted  by  sex.  That’s   all  they  did.  Drink,  snort  cocaine,  and  have  sex.  Lawyers,  judges,  doctors,  you  couldn’t  find   morality  anywhere,  and  that’s  what  used  to  crack  me  up  about  the  vice  [squad].  They  call  them   the  “morale  police,”  hell  they  didn’t  have  no  morale.   [several  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   13     �I  used  to  tell  them  all  the  time,  “look,  my  momma  told  me  when  I  was  young  that  if  it  smell  like   pork  there’s  no  need  to  taste  it,  it  is  pork.  I’ve  got  high  blood  pressure,  I  don’t  do  pigs  for  free.”   I  had  a  few  friends  that  were  police  officers,  and  they  paid  for  it.     [4  minutes  and  7  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   12:25   Alright  one  last  good  story.  Y’all  look  it  up  in  the  newspapers,  you’ll  see  where  there  was  a   house  on  Highland  Avenue,  that  was  known  as  the  prostitution  house.  I  was  arrested  in  that   house.  I  wasn’t  prostituting  in  that  house,  I  was  visiting  my  supposed  boyfriend  at  the  time.  The   vice  kicked  in  the  door,  and  when  they  did  it  had  a  big  glass  knob,  it  hit  [name  removed  to   protect  privacy]  in  his  hip  and  broke  his  hip.  We  had  to  carry  him  two  blocks  down  the  street  to   Lotz  Funeral  Homes  so  the  ambulance  could  pick  him  up.  He  didn’t  know  the  police  were   coming  that  night.  I  did.  He  didn’t.  So  that’s  the  only  sex  story  you’ll  get  out  of  me.     [20  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   I  don’t  know  what  else  to  tell  you  other  than  [that]  I  loved  Roanoke  City,  and  I  have  given  a  lot   for  this  city,  and  I  have  fought  hard  against  this  city.  I  don’t  know  where  the  bodies  are,  but  I  do   know  where  the  underwear  fell.  I  tell  them  that  all  the  way,  all  the  time.     [1  minute  and  28  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   13:47   If  it  hadn’t  been  for  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  I  would  have  got  that  million  dollars.   You  know  Hustler  magazine  offered  a  million  dollars  for  anybody  who  had  ever  had  sex  with  a   congressman  or  a  senator.  I  was  getting  ready  to  call  when  I  was  told  that  my  brains  would  be   blown  out.  I’m  the  type  of  person  that  when  you  tell  me  that,  you’ve  got  to  prove  it  to  me.  I   don’t  go  so  easy.  I  got  arrested  down…  well  you  see  where  we’re  at,  right?  This  is  where  I  work.   I  can’t  go  downstairs  and  eat.  You  know  why?  Because  in  1993  it  took  17  police  officers  to   arrest  me  downstairs.  You  remember  Major  Hasan,  the  one  who  shot  all  those  people  down  in   Fort  Hood?  Well  his  [name  removed  to  protect  privacy]  and  I  got  to  fighting  downstairs  in  1993,   might  have  been  ‘92,  and  I  did  36,000  dollars  worth  of  damage  downstairs,  but  the  owner  up   here  is  still  my  friend.  I  did.  I  did  36,000  dollars  worth  of  damage;  17  police  officers  it  took  to   arrest  me.  Man  hit  me  in  the  face  with  a  glass  beer  mug  and  I  lost  my  mind.  When  they  had  me   in  court  that  day,  Judge  Harris  said  that  “being  a  police  officer  is  a  prerequisite  of  getting  your   ass  whooped,  and  if  you  tell  me  that  17  of  y’all—that’s  what  it  took  to  bring  a  man  who  wears  a   wig  and  high  heels  to  jail—I’m  gonna  tell  you  I’m  dismissing  the  case  already  cause  y’all  ain’t   nothing  but  a  bunch  of  punks.”  Course  he  knew  that  I  was  a  hard  way  to  roll.     [41  seconds  of  audio  removed  to  protect  privacy]   [END]   14     � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Anonymous1 Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Anonymous1 Interviewers: Roanoke College students Date: 24 February 2017 Location: Downtown Roanoke Duration: 52:17 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 24 February 2017 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Anonymous1 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4439/Forrest_Larry.1.MP3 a53c3ed499f89ae1e1f3084f3dd4d9c4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4439/Forrest_Larry.pdf f311241b6ecb3849966523c5d16a2a8c PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative The QTPOC Project: Representation Matters Interview with Larry Forrest March 15, 2018 Interviewer: Princess Carter Interviewee: Larry Forrest Date: March 15, 2018 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 220 High Street, Salem, Virginia Transcribed by: Princess Carter Duration: 50:08 Index: 00:00 = Childhood in Bedford, Virginia, living on a farm; father’s drinking problem (1961-early 1970s) 04:25 = Siblings; death of his parents 06:37 = Family shaping sexuality 08:26 = High School (1975-1979) 09:37 = Gay bars in Chicago and Roanoke (1979); The Park 12:18 = Drag queens and street queens; racial divide among queens; the City Market as red-light district; HIV/AIDS and street queens; drag pageantry at The Park 19:05 = Safe spaces; the scene on Salem Avenue outside The Park; the City Market as ‘meat market’ 21:24 = Racial divisions in Roanoke’s gay community 23:54 = Dating; cruising locations in Roanoke: the ‘butch block,’ bookstores 27:27= Issues that LGBTQ+ youth are facing today 31:19 = the Black church; African American attitudes towards homosexuality; living in the closet; mental health 37:01 = Generational gap between old and young LGBTQ people 45:02 = The future for Roanoke’s gay community; the divide between Roanoke Pride and others �00:00 [checking sound levels ~ 7 sec.] 00:07 PC: This is Princess Carter. I’m here with Larry Forrest. Today is March 15, 2018 and we are sitting in the Roanoke College Library, Salem, Virginia. This is an interview for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative. So if you could just tell me your name, where you grew up and you know, a little bit about yourself. 00:32 LF: My name is Larry Forrest. I grew up in Bedford, Virginia. It’s like 30 miles east of Roanoke, so it’s rural country. On a farm. Mother, father. One brother and five sisters. Brother’s ten years older than me, so like when I was 10, he was out of the house. Father was a farmer. Mother did odd jobs and things with a family member. Um, sisters went to college as we were growing up. So, it was a pretty... I thought we had it made, living out in the country, because I loved the farm, I loved the animals, and I loved being out in the country and running around. The fresh air and the animals and things. All families have issues. So, with the good there was the bad. Such as the father. He had a drinking problem and things. So, sometimes he would like to fight things when he came home on weekends, so that wasn’t nice. So, it was Monday through Friday there was joy and we would anticipate the weekends. But all in all, we never went hungry. We had food and shelter, so other than that, I thought it was pretty normal. Didn’t say we had a lot of money, but in those days or at that time we all had the same things, so nobody looked at each other as being... having more than the other. We just didn’t even think about that. Though I’m sure if I look back on it, I wonder how we did survive sometimes with that many people in the house and that type of income. Sometimes no income, I guess. But, we grew our own food. Had a garden. My grandmother had a huge garden and we had a small garden. My mother, she wasn’t a garden person, so it didn’t last that long. Cause as a child, she grew up, she had to do it. So, when she got married, she said “no, she wasn’t gonna do that.” So, we had garden food and my father, he was a farmer. He ran two major—I wouldn’t say major—farms, but two farms. Cattle and wheat and corn he would grow and he would hire people out to help him collect and harvest when that came. Such as the hay and stuff, and so it was, that would come onto us. The beef and things, and we raised our own hogs, so we had pork and bacon and all that stuff when they… during the winter when the temperature arrive, we would slaughter them and had our own [food] that way. 2 �So, went to... we all went to the same elementary school. I mean, I’ve got people I’ve went to school with from the first grade all up to senior because it was just two schools: one through seven, eight through twelve. So, I loved school and I excelled at it. Loved to read because living in rural you don’t get to travel so much so reading, you can travel through your mind to far away places you may not see. Physically, that is. So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed... did a little drawing and a little painting. Learned how to develop pictures. I remember photography in the third grade and I remember we had this uh, aquarium. We took care of that, so it was a lot of, a lot of things I learned even though I was on a farm, that I was introduced to. One thing I wish I would have learned, if I did live in the city, I would have probably took dancing lessons. I liked to dance. I would have probably took classical ballet and a little bit of all of that, but maybe swimming too because we didn’t have… there wasn’t any swimming facilities around for us to swim so that’s probably why I’m still afraid of water today [laughs]. Deep water, deep water. 04:25 PC: So, you said a little about your siblings. How was your relationship with your siblings? Are you close to your brother, close to your sisters? 04:34 LF: We had the same parents. Sometimes I just ask myself the same question [laughs]. We just had the same parents, depending on the situation. I would say we all got each other’s back when it come to it. And sometime we all were on the same level of consciousness, but... but sometime... they have, I’m single. And they have spouses and families and children and grandchildren, so that takes a lot of their time, so… 05:03 PC: So, how was your relationship with your parents? Are you... I know you talked about your dad’s drinking, are you still close with your dad? 05:10 LF: Both my parents are dead. My father died in [19]75, so I was in like eighth grade. That was in February, I had just got in the eighth grade. My mother died maybe, it would be eight years this October. Um.. 05:26 PC: And did... sorry to cut you off. 05:28 LF: No, go ahead. 05:29 3 �PC: Did you see any of that affect your relationship with your siblings? Like did you guys get closer or did it not affect anything at all? 05:37 LF: It probably did to a degree I’m sure. Sometimes I felt like I was the only one taking up for my mom and there was so many others in the house. Why was this, why did it happen long... cause I’m number five out of seven so I’m sure it started way before I came along. At least abuse and things like that. And drinking or whatever. Yea, kind of isolated sometimes. The good plus being in-between five sisters, I didn’t really have to share anything. So I had... they had their... I had my room I could retreat to and close everything out if I wanted. They shared everything. So I can see why sometimes I could see myself feeling separate because I had that, not the luxury, but just you know retreating away, withdrawal. Just to be alone in a house full of plenty or many. 06:37 PC: So, you talked a little bit about your family. How does, how do you see your family shaping your sexuality and did you come out to your family? Was it something that wasn’t spoken about? 06:49 LF: I did come out to my mom many years ago, but not spoken about. But I have other... there’s plenty of gay people in my family, so… I mean my mom had two gay brothers and I had two gay uncles. I have gay cousins, gay nieces that are “out” that I know of, so it wasn’t much spoken about really. 07:17 PC: And do you… 07:18 LF: But I guess... but it wasn’t like any mean or dirty looks or bad things talked about either, so it was just like accepted and moved on, okay. But it was nothing ever discussed. I think if it maybe was discussed it might’ve… maybe they might of explained to all the other family members, just have a conversation about it. It exists, you know. In case if the younger people or something there, because they're gonna see the more openly now gay people out there expressing themselves and just have a conversation about it. Back then it wasn’t talked about, even though it was obvious. 08:09 PC: So, do you think because you had so many gay people in your family that it allowed you to express yourself more in your family through your sexuality? 4 �08:17 LF: I would say yea. Because I could... you know they weren’t treated any different and I… so... 08:26 PC: You talked a little bit about school and you said you enjoyed school and you enjoyed reading. Can you give me a little more about your high school experience? 08:34 LF: High school...I had a very easy high school. I started in ‘75 and graduated in ‘79. No bullying, no hassle. The way I am now probably the way I was back then. I’m sure I was. I uh… hung with more females than males back then and if anything was said it was nothing said to my face. But I never experienced any…you know, never got into any fights, never got you know… any of the bad stuff that I’ve heard and read about. 09:10 PC: So, did you ever have like a coming out, where you said “this is me. This is who I am.” Or was it just something that people knew about and like came up in casual conversation? 09:22 LF: Casual conversation. If someone probably asked I would tell. Other than that I didn’t… I didn’t reveal anything, if you wanted to know I figured you would ask and then I would tell but… 09:37 PC: Growing up in Roanoke, I know there was a lot of gay bars coming around in like the [19]70s, so did you attend gay bars? 09:48 LF: I went to my first gay bar I believe in the Fall of September [19]79, and that’s the first time [I knew] any bars exist. You know what let me take that back. I graduated High School in ‘79 and I went to Chicago to visit my uncle. He lived in Chicago. He was gay and he had a partner, so I stayed with them. They took me to my first gay bar. And that’s when I realized that there was a lifestyle. That men could live together and work together, have an apartment like everybody else. There was events and places they could attend just for them and not feel like being looked at or scorned. So that was my first one, but my first one in Roanoke was The Park and I didn’t know about anything else. I didn’t know it exist[ed] and someone took me there. 10:38 5 �PC: So did you see a big difference between the gay scene in Roanoke versus the gay scene in Chicago? 10:45 LF: Well, yea in a way. Well to me... no, because they’re both safe spaces to go. They had that in common, but as far as having to go to a, you know, each had different things they would carry. Some was leather bars only. So, whereas The Park everything went to one. You just saw bits and pieces, while up there [in Chicago] it was just exclusive. If you wasn’t dressed right, you might not get in because you didn’t fit the scene, or you might of went there knowing... you heard it was just a gay bar. Being from a small town, you know, everything come to one bar. You go to that bar and they would say “no, this is what this thing is about,” and you might leave, so that’s what I see different about it. But the bar fit everything in there, so it’s like in a way you have all those different various aspects of gay, such as the drag queens and the leathers and maybe the butch queens and the lesbians. But back then, the women was just lesbian. There wasn’t any change they wanted to go. They had drag kings. I guess that’s what you call them. But that’s not the true word. That’s what they call them when they perform, but didn’t see too many of them which is women dressing in men’s clothing but not to the extent that it is now that you can’t tell them apart. 12:07 PC: So um, you talked a little bit about the like the separation between the bars in Roanoke. Did you see a big drag community? A big lesbian community? 12:18 LF: It was a big drag community because, as I remember. In the bars it was like two different sets of drag queens because you had the black drag queens and the white drag queens. And most of the black [drag queens]... well, and two different poverty levels, too. If that’s what you want to call it, because well you know most of the black drag queens were the ones who worked the street and prostituted themselves to make a living off of. And the ones who had jobs would just dress up to come to the bar and stay inside, and the other ones would just stay outside and they would come in maybe after 1 or 2 [am] after they…you know, after work or something. That was a difference, but when it comes down to performing, they all performed at the same level when it came to performing on stage. So that was a difference. 13:12 PC: Yea. 13:14 LF: And I never could understand you know, why if you were... I didn’t have a problem if you wanted to dress up and that, but why dress up as a woman to be a prostitute? Didn’t make sense 6 �to me. But... but I guess it does if they was expressing themself they would...they was able to do that. At least that was… What they had to do wasn’t a good thing. I mean they had to survive. They there was never the... use that talent for something else, you know, besides that. Because there was a time when, if you’ve ever seen somebody get dressed because I have seen, it’s quite a... I mean even when I watch RuPaul’s Drag Race, I never seen it to that extent, but it’s a process. It is a process. 14:06 PC: So, were you friends with any drag queens back then? 14:10 LF: Oh, yea. A lot of them. I knew... I think my first drag queen I saw was Carolyn Sue Wilson and I knew [Miss] Grace and I knew a lot of them that worked on the… down in the Market. Which is where they worked, the ones that… where you eat at now, but it’s not getting a lot of business. That block right there is where the men would circle and pick them up and back then that was all… that was the only thing going on downtown, nothing else. There was no restaurants, there was no walk-in, at five o’clock it became that... the dark light, the red light district and people know—that’s what it was known, [or] famous for, all around Virginia they was coming here for that. Some would come to you know... participate and pick em up and some would just come for the attraction, just ride around seeing, so… 15:05 PC: Um...sorry, I lost my train of thought, um did you… 15:13 LF: I knew a lot of drag queens. 15:14 PC: Yea. 15:16 LF: Knew a lot of them. 15:17 PC: Do you still come into contact with them today? 15:20 LF: Only... it’s only two that I know left. A lot of em died, a lot of them died started dying in the [19]80s, ’83, ‘88. I had a real good friend who grew up in the same town that I did, and he was... him and my sister behind me were in the same grade. He was going to Ferrum College and... he 7 �discovered The Park and he wanted to be a drag queen. He became a drag queen. He was a prostitute and he... but he had in fact… back then, that’s when the early ages of HIV and AIDS was out. He got infected and then got he got cancer and then when you do the chemo thing, you don’t already have an immune system, it didn’t work out very well. Back then it was the early stages so it was... yeah, I know a lot of... but today I know Carolyn’s still around and like you said Grace and I think some more that I knew just from entertainment, you know you would walk up and tip em and seem em and say “hi” and everything, but the ones that I really knew— that you know we went together, partied together, rode around together and all of that—a lot of them are gone. A lot of them are gone. 16:34 PC: So are you seeing a difference between drag back then versus drag now? 16:41 LF: Yea, big difference. Especially when it comes to everything: the entertainment of it, how they perform, the look of it, the glamour of it. Because a lot of them... like the glamour of it is sort of different where people... I don’t know. It’s like... they were like stars. Some of them would come... I mean they came from South Carolina. All the way from Columbia just to perform here and Myrtle Beach and a lot of them came up just to come to this little bar here. So that, I mean...and a lot of girls won a lot of crowns, championship crowns: Miss America, Miss Gay America. It was a big pageant. A lot of them won the crown on that stage. So it’s a famous bar. It’s well known around. It’s going through some changes now, but it’s still open and it’s a shame that it’s sort of a rift in it. To me it is sad. 17:39 PC: So, have you seen the younger generation... I’ve heard that the drag queens coming up now they’re a little more disrespectful to the older drag queens. Have you seen that first hand or…? 17:51 LF: No, I haven’t seen it or heard it. That doesn’t mean it ain’t happen, but a lot of the older [queens] doesn’t perform at The Park anymore. It seems like they have, once or twice a year, they have an event where they all perform and people...and you can buy a ticket and see them. And these were the former owners of the bar. They did it at the Jefferson Center, I do believe, a couple months ago. Upfront, it seems like when the ones.. .all the ones died out, there was no one to train because they would take the younger ones under their wing and show them how to, you know, the art and craft of it. So, I guess if I was a young one doing it on my own and there was no one to train me, I could see… Well, young people disrespect old people anyway [laughs]. They would disrespect their parents. So yea, I could see it happening because it’s so easily acceptable. 8 �19:05 PC: So, you talked about safe spaces and there being safe space in Chicago, safe space in Roanoke. Can you go into a little more detail about that? 19:14 LF: What do you mean safe spaces? 19:17 PC: Like how, do you feel Roanoke was a safe space for you? And how do you feel Chicago was a safe space for you? Compare the two and… 19:27 LF: Just being around people of my type. Other gay people and knowing that there was... that I wasn’t the only one like that, and there was a lifestyle and that it was okay to be that way. It was freeing in a way. It really helped me a lot because it was like… like I would leave one type of environment, the working environment, which I still do today, leave that and come up here just have my gay lifestyle, to party—not that I partied a lot—but just hang out with friends and things and more freeing and less stressful and not have to worry about being, you know...not that I did, but you didn’t feel judged, you felt like it was a very safe environment. I felt safe. If I wanted to do anything nobody would say anything to it, and that really uh...you know you can think it but when you do it is a different thing. 20:21 PC: So, you've never come into contact with anyone who you felt was judging you or had something negative to say about your sexuality? 20:31 LF: Let me think, probably have. How did I deal with it? Not in the gay... not at the bar or nothing like that, I would say. Maybe as we was waiting in line, cars would drive by because like I said they [the johns] would drive from all the way downtown Salem Avenue. Not only would [be] going around the market—the Meat Market, what we called it back in the day—but all the way up Salem Avenue past The Park, and slurs and words would be coming out and things. But other than that, like I said, if it was, it wasn’t said in front of my face or enough to challenge or provoke or, you know, anything came from it, that I can remember. But, off the top of my head, I don’t remember any bad thing like that. 21:24 PC: Did you happen to see any racial divide between the gay community in Roanoke? 21:31 9 �LF: Um... I guess... do you mean the whole gay community or not just drag queens or anything? 21:44 PC: Um, either/or. 21:45 LF: Well, probably... like I said when I started going in [19]79, everybody was going to the same place. Now before then, I’m sure it was... I do know... I’m pretty sure if they couldn’t go into The Park, they probably went up on Henry Street because even though they were gay it was a... their color worked for them. I’ll just make it plain. So, they was more acceptable up there, to go in and hang out or just go in for a drink, maybe not so much as to party and dance, but they would go there. But as far as I been going to The Park, everybody could go in. So, it was open to all. Now for other bars… there were other bars that we couldn’t get into… maybe was the Trade Winds or something like that. I’ve heard stories. I’m just now hearing stories about that, but I went in Trade Winds myself so…’79, ’80, after ‘79 at least but someone took me in there and I don’t think we stayed long. We just walked in and looked around. Maybe ordered a drink or something. There was another one, The Last Straw, I’ve been in there and they were... I was there. That was maybe a white male bar only, but that’s the only two that I know of that we may have had trouble. Black gays… you would just walk in there, but most of the places... those two places are where I did go with someone and they was white. 23:26 PC: Did you feel a closer connection to other queer people of color or was it all LGBTQ+ people that you felt a connection to in Roanoke? 23:37 LF: Probably… people of color. At the bar it was both at that scene, because I would see them then, but I came up, but if I wasn’t at the bar, my friends were mainly people of color. 23:54 PC: Since there was a gay scene in Roanoke did you... how was dating in the…? 24:05 LF: It was [laughing]….for me the dates would happen in Roanoke, and I would go back into the country so it was… At the bar was a big place to meet people, one of the places to meet people if you came to the bar... where you could actually see what they look like and all that. There was other places if you wanted to go... I don’t know if you would call it dating, but just to meet people, which was... there was a... just like the drag queens had a block to get picked up, the guys had one, too. Down there past the library, I don’t know if you knew that or not. It was the street right beside the library, they closed it up, between the library and I think it’s the Health 10 �Department now. There used to be a street all the way down and that was the ‘Butch Block’ [Butchers Block?] where guys got picked up, so that was there. The male hustlers... we would just go there just to hang out.It was a place to hang out. Not that you wanted to get picked up, but just to look and see what was to be seen or looked... they had that there. And then the adult bookstore if they wanted that was another place they would meet. But these were more guys who weren’t... well, everybody went there, but mainly [those] who was not out of the closet. The “down low,” they would call them back then, maybe even bisexual. They would meet there, but that was strictly for sex, mainly. But if you wanted to meet someone, you know, The Park was the place if you really wanted to meet a partner or somebody and you know that kind of way and go on and start a relationship. The other two, was just mainly for cruising, and I mean something could come from it if you wanted to, if you was at the Butch Block, but the adult bookstore was mainly for sex, in my opinion. Still is. 26:10 PC: So, can you tell me a little about the history of LGBTQ+ issues in Roanoke or where you’re from in the rural setting? 26:24 LF: I guess it’s nonexistent in the rural setting. I mean, as far as somewhat… they would leave and come back to our city or something like that, our town. They would leave that and congregate out. I mean they would probably live and work as a person. They probably expressed themselves through their personality and things but there’s nothing to hang out for them. Unless you had something at your house, but mainly I just work there and come out to communicate with more gay people basically. It’s nonexistent. Mine is and I don’t see any... if it is, it’s underground. It don’t exist. 27:27 PC: So, what do you think of the issues that LGBTQ+ youth are facing today? 27:35 LF: I don’t really understand why, if it’s so much more accepted than it was in my period, that you know when they come out it’s not as bashful of hateful. I’m sure it is, but to me it’s a more open environment. It would be easier to come out today than it would when I was...in ‘75 when I was just starting a teenager, so that’s...I don’t understand that, but so I guess it tells me it is more accepting but yet the danger is still there. So that doesn’t make sense to me. Issues they’re facing? Well it seems like it’s branching out in such different categories, you know, LGBQT… and I think it’s a few more letters down the line that I don’t know what they stand for so it’s... it really... the definition of “gay,” it’s not just two of the same sex sleeping together anymore because it’s kind of more personality. I mean with all those LGBQT… it’s like it’s... it’s sort of like a person, whatever they are feeling, they can release it and be it would fit in there and they 11 �can live a whole life in a way because living a life two different ways is not whole even though it’s in one body, if that makes sense. 29:22 PC: And do you think that’s better or worse than how it was when you were growing up? 29:30 LF: I’d say it’s better. But it’s still dangerous. But it’s with all this information, I can’t understand... there was no information, there was no service, there was nothing. Like I didn’t even know there was a word for me, “gay.” It was all those other negative words. Names they would call you that exist. Not that I was called that... probably was, but like I said not to my face. There was a gay lifestyle and now it’s... so they shouldn’t. I don’t understand. There’s so much information. But, I guess I do understand. I guess it’s the way... like if I was a gay teenager in this [day]... and they came out to their family, I guess their beliefs and what they believe in and how they were raised, they might stick to that conviction, religion, and the way they were raised, instead of being in fear of being more open and dangerous and, you know, adventurous. They stick to the norm because their parents stuck to the norm. And maybe they’re afraid of that getting out. Someone in the family... have a family member like that... here. I guess it could be anywhere. I can’t say rural. It even exists in the cities, too. I mean I’m sure if someone who lived in the city, rich, could still experience the same thing. You know, because they might want their kids to be a certain way or take up their business or something and they might not accept the gay lifestyle because it doesn’t look right in the family tradition. They want to keep the family tradition. 31:19 PC: And I know this... speaking of tradition, and keeping the family face, is something you see a lot especially in the black church. Have you seen that in your experience? 31:33 LF: Yes, that’s another, what is it, “don’t ask, don’t tell.” [laughs] I do go to church. I don’t go a whole lot, but I guess I’ve seen more, you know... it’s more accepting if they’re doing the musical part and things like that, but you know it was upsetting if you did talk and condemn people for their sexuality when they did a sermon about that. But you had... it’s pretty obvious you have gay people in your church, but it’s like you accept them because they’re in the church but then again you got to stick to tradition and teach what it says and bash them. So it does... you compliment them and then you just say “pow,” you stamp them right back down so it’s confusing. That was confusing. 32:38 12 �PC: And do you think that reflects upon the black community itself and their attitudes that people of color have towards homosexuals? 32:48 LF:I would say yeah, because they... people love the norm so much. In a community setting now sometimes, they want to keep their home, their business in the home, and keep that safe and they don’t like that getting out of their home. So they might be more accepting of you being gay but not saying about it, staying in the closet and all of that, and that way they don’t have to tell the community. So they might accept you that way you are, but being “out” where others can see you and they can hear someone say something or point a finger at them it’s probably… 33:30 PC: And do you think that has an effect on… 33:31 LF: The kids? 33:32 PC: Yeah. 33:33 LF: Yeah, oh definitely, because it’s mixed messages. It’s mixed messages, I would say. In one way it’s like, you know, you’re telling them they can fly as high as they want to but there’s a rope around your ankles for them to yank it back down when something... if what’s exposed they don’t want exposed. If that makes sense. 34:00 PC: So it seems to be all about appearances. 34:04 LF: Yeah, I would say yeah. I would say yeah. In the rural. I don’t know, I’m speaking for the rural. Hush-hush. And that sometimes to me that’s... to me I think people can shine as bright as they can but it’s like a dimmer bulb. Your light is on but it’s dim. It’s not as bright as it can be because the tradition and that... the face, you know you can turn it up, but they’re working the switch. They’re making sure they keep you dim so because if you get as bright as you can it’ll expose not only yourself but them too, and they might not be ready to walk with you in that light that non judgmentally because that’s their issue themselves. Who knows what trigger that might be for them, you being gay, because they’ll think it’s something... what did I do for him to turn out that way? Maybe they might have issues where something happened to them as a child and they suppressed it and never dealt with it. This was the way it came out. Them having a child and 13 �they might be gay themselves and couldn’t express it and wasn’t allowed to. I did have a friend that happened... I didn’t know it created him to have PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder], you know because he was gay but his father couldn’t accept it. You know, just the abuse. The verbal thing mainly. He couldn’t understand... he couldn’t take that he had a gay son. He really did a work on him. And that was like... I always thought PTSD was like war things, you know. I didn’t know it could be just somebody constantly... years and years and years. He didn’t stop it. At one point made him run away or he didn’t run away but he left and lost all contact meaning when they tried to contact him, I guess he changed his number or email or whatever, and then by the time he did reach out it was too late. He had stomach cancer. That was only way they got back together as a family because he got sick. If he hadn’t got sick I don’t think he would’ve... if he was still alive he probably would’ve still been avoiding them today. So that was sad. 37:01 PC: So, again, lost my train of thought, sorry. Well, going back to the youth, do you see a big generational gap between the youth of today and the older generation? 37:21 LF: Oh God yeah. But I was just thinking about that this morning. They’re doing the same thing we did with different issues and with different level of consciousness. Each generation has their own things to deal with when it comes to society, so if I look at it that way I have more in common. It’s not a difference, it’s just different problems and different things that they are dealing with. That makes it much easier for me now, but before I was like “I don’t understand it... I don’t have nothing in common with them. I don’t understand.” And now I know a person saying it, so it is. But it takes... if you could remember when you were a young person. I think that would help, but we forget... when we see how they perform and how they act it’s no different than what I did. I was doing the same and we forget. And I don’t know how to fix that, except through dialogue and conversation maybe. Group settings or something if someone has a forum of old gays and young ones and we can find out. I don’t know. It’s a common ground. I wonder if they want to make common ground. The understanding of each other, understanding of a community to be united or something like that. 39:04 PC: What effects do you think this generational gap have on both the older generation and the younger generation? 39:10 LF: The effects? It’s probably the culture. Whether or not they will be able to burn as bright as they can, but the two of them they are not working for the same goal. The common goal, which is to have the Southwest Virginia, this area, gay community, you know... to be represented and be a powerful force. If a light.. .nobody can see that we’re doing good things and the community 14 �working together. So, it’s sort of like keeping in the keep sort of thing. It’s two separate things. They won’t burn as bright. Together they can be one and I don’t know how to bring them together. Like I said to a forum or dialogue, but a lot of the older generation has gotten to the point where they’re kind of withdrawn. They stay in themselves. They don’t go out as much to participate, except for certain things like they had at The Jefferson [Center]. But I guess they’re just at the age where they just want to not deal with it, you know. They been there and done that. So they can’t be surprised how the youth do... because at least they are keeping it going. And they are not getting ideas on how to do it they come with their own. This is the way we’re gonna do it and they reach out to their own level. Their own age area. Maybe from one community to another. “Well, how did y’all tackle this or we have no idea because there is no one here to show us how it used to be done.” That works with all things. The older drag queen couldn't show the younger drag how to be more professional or hone their task. You can do anything, but when you’re doing it brand new and someone who has been doing it for years can kind of watch you and put a new twist and maybe develop it into a fine tune like a guitar. That’s all I can say. You’re a guitar, but you can’t tune it yourself. Only if someone played it and walked it before and knows how to tune it. 41:39 PC: So you think that it’s important that we strive to bring these two groups together? 41:43 LF: Yea, at least I think so. It wouldn’t hurt. Because then it gets lost and they... you have to come up on your own, and that’s what you have and you can’t complain then because you didn’t participate and say well... if you don’t participate in what the other group come up with, that’s what it is. So that’s all that they had to work on. That’s all they had to present because no one showed them how to... how to do it. So it is a lot. It is a lot. I guess that’s the way it is with any... the world itself, I guess. 42:31 PC: And how do you think a project like this brings the younger generation and the older generation together by... through the telling of histories? 42:40 LF: It shows the young how we had to live as a gay person versus how they are now. We couldn’t walk down the street holding hands or kiss in public or none of that and we had to sneak around and do everything we wanted... sometimes we wouldn’t even be in groups together because it was dangerous to be in groups, you know, a bunch of us. As far as being out and especially by yourself, I’m sure, but just being in groups being hassled and stuff. So, that’s why I say they have it easier to express themselves. Their personality, the way they dress, the way they walk, but back then we did not have that freedom to... So, that aspect we did not have the 15 �freedom but maybe mentally that’s still the same because you still can have the freedom but still be afraid. Like we talked about earlier, being gay, coming out in a way. Even though you aren’t looking the part, it’s still some danger in being openly gay depending on where you at, where you live that, where you shop at. And I think… 44:18 PC: And how… 44:18 LF: Like you said, getting together maybe... getting together or just reading or knowing other people’s stories because I would love to see some young people’s stories and hear what they have to say because in my mind you have it made, but then they can show me how they don’t have it made. Show me how you don’t have it made, when I think you had it made. Being a man and having a dress on in the daytime and not being heckled and all of that. 45:02 PC: So how do you see the future of the Roanoke Valley and its gay community? 45:06 LF: It looks like it’s separate right now. Two different parts. Maybe it’s more than two parts. You have maybe the bar scene and you have The Park scene, that crowd, and then you may have a crowd that’s more... The other crowd, what can I say they are? The ones who don’t go to The Park but still maybe doing more work in the community instead of just doing the bar and partying-side of the gay because that’s what I think a lot of gays... that’s what they do. That’s how they participate and contribute to the gay side by just having a good time. Whereas others are doing things such as this project and maybe social issues of gay. Not that the party scene don’t care about those issues. It’s kind of separate and that to me... it’s two different type of gay communities and that’s what it is. That side who support the Pride and the other one they are starting... they’re not starting their own thing but in my opinion it’s that side of the gay and it’s like a divide to me. I’ll put it that way. In the future? Well, what can I say? The divide has been going on, that I know of, at least two years. Maybe three. But they both still seem to be...they’re still here and they’re still thriving. So that means that even though there’s a divide, they are both living and thriving. It’s not dead so that’s a good thing and maybe they both can grow from that. Even though maybe two different types of divide, but as long as they’re thriving I guess that’s healthy but maybe they can work together is all I can say. Do you think there is a divide in the community? Personally? 47:34 PC: Well, personally, I’m not very active in either part of the community, but… 16 �47:40 LF: Well, from what you’ve heard? What stories have been told? Do more people think it’s separated or do they think it’s one big unit? 47:53 PC: I’ve heard from... these interviews, I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the divide, so I definitely… 47:59 LF: And we’re all concerned? Is it a concern? Well, I think, like I said, it’s still thriving, so I think it may... I think it’ll be better. I think it’s going to get to the point where it may die out. The thought of it. They might forget why even the divide or the slash happened. Come to common ground, but it may split up like they do in the major cities. Where they have white gay pride and the black gay pride or this gay pride and another gay pride, so that can happen, too. In a way that would show that we are maybe a strong community in a way. To support two big events in that way. So, that’s positive. So, I think either way they go, it might be positive. As long as one don’t die or die off. Living in a town with this amount of people, you would think it would be one. [laughs] This ain’t Miami or New York. It happens in those bigger cities, but in a smaller community, it divides. You have only a handful trying to survive. Instead of two hands, you only have one. And that’s the sad part. But what can I say? I’m not writing the script... [laughs] the way I want. So you just have to look for the silver lining. 49:54 PC: Well, I would like to thank you for coming out and telling your story. 49:58 LF: You’re welcome. I hope I did something and contributed something to your project that you can use. 50:06 PC: Thank you. 50:07 LF: You’re welcome. [END] 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Larry Forrest Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Princess Carter Interviewee: Larry Forrest Date: 15 March 2018 Duration: 50:08 Transcription prepared by: Princess Carter Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 March 2018 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Larry Forrest; Princess Carter Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ForrestLarry Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4440/Black_Antonp1.MP3 98e507a16b1870574ee0e986bd7a2518 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4440/Black_Antonp2.MP3 5f31a77365dd14853efd5d56c3ed484d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4440/Black_Antonp3.MP3 02e8d8438f66362233ca68bac4cec2e9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4440/Black_Anton.pdf d7d4f4e9b25360553317dc4265406ff8 PDF Text Text Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project   Oral  History  Initiative   The  QTPOC  Project:  Representation  Matters     Interview  with  Anton  Black  -­‐-­‐-­‐  in  three  parts     February  22,  2018       Interviewer:  Caitlyn  L.  Lewis   Interviewee:  Anton  Black   Date:  February  22,  2018   Location:  Anton  Black’s  Home       Transcribed  by:  Caitlyn  Lewis     Duration:  66:22     Part  One  (37:59)   0:00  =  childhood  experiences  and  family  dynamics;  nerd/geek  identity;  gender  and  sexuality     (1973-­‐1980s)   4:28  =  influence  of  1980s  music  and  pop  culture;  music  and  fashion;  androgyny  (1980s)   8:49  =  attending  Woodrow  Wilson  Junior  High  School  (1983-­‐1986)   9:58  =  religion  and  going  to  church;  having  a  son     12:00  =  involvement  in  outreach  program  for  church  (1990-­‐1991);  views  on  religion     14:38  =  experiences  inside  the  church  as  a  queer  family  (2016)   17:08  =  first  time  going  to  The  Park  (c.  1993-­‐1994)   18:48  =  meeting  his  current  partner;  marriage  (1991/1992);  visiting  The  Park   21:52  =  agoraphobia  (fear  of  crowds);  battling  agoraphobia  (2012)   25:05  =  Black  family  involvement  in  Roanoke  Pride  and  PRISM  Foundation  (2013-­‐2018);  plans  for   LGBTQ  clothing  closet  project   31:27  =  what  it  was  like  coming  up;  lack  of  mentors     Part  Two  (20:51)   0:00  =  Anton’s  drag  journey  (2012-­‐2018);  discovering  his  trans  identity  through  drag  performance;   the  power  of  music  and  drag  to  touch  people’s  emotions   10:01  =  his  uncle  who  died  of  AIDS;  marriage  &  family   12:14  =  activism  in  the  LGBTQ  community;  issues  facing  LGBTQ  youth  today   17:27  =  the  Black  family  (2013-­‐2018)     Part  Three  (  7:32)   0:00  =the  Black  family  (2013-­‐2018)   3:15  =  The  Park  closing  briefly  in  2013;  titles  held  at  The  Park     4:21  =discussing  hopes  of    visibility  for  queer,  trans,  people  of  color  in  Roanoke  area     1 �       Part  One  (37:59)       0:00     CL:  Alright  so  I  am  Caitlyn  Lewis  and  I  am  here  with  Anton  Black.  Today  is  February  22,  2018.  We   are  at  Anton’s  home  in  Roanoke,  Virginia.  This  is  an  interview  for  The  QTPOC  Project:   Representation  Matters  for  the  Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  Oral  History  Project.       So  Anton,  you  can  go  ahead  and  start  off  by  telling  me  about  your  childhood.  Like  where  you    grew   up.  You  told  me  a  story  about  when  you  were  six  and  so  I  think  that  was  a  good  age  to  begin   remembering  things.       0:45     AB:  Well,  I  grew  up...  I  was  born  here  in  Roanoke,  but  then  we  moved  to  Colorado.  My  father  was  in   the  Air  Force.  So,  I  have  a  little  of  that  in  me.  Just  being  outside  all  of  the  time.  Enjoying  myself  at   like  the  Rocky  Mountains,  White  Peaks,  things  like  that.  But  when  I  came  back  to  Virginia  I  was  five.   And  I  always  knew  I  was  different.  From  the  second  I  stepped  into  the  classroom.  I  had  different   interests;  male  interests  typically,  things  that  you  would  associate  with  boys.  Football  has  always   been  near  and  dear  to  my  heart.  I  didn’t  understand  why  I  could  not  play  with  the  boys,  the  teacher   would  not  let  me.  At  one  point  I  wanted  to  be  a  pro  wrestler.  Because  I  thought  that  was  just  the   best  profession  anybody  could  be  in.     But,  probably  the  time  I  really  started  getting  the  thought  in  my  head  that  I  was  different  for  a   specific  reason  was  around  the  age  six  or  seven.  I  was  at  my  grandmother’s  house  and  told  her  I  felt   like  a  boy  trapped  in  a  girl’s  body.  And  she  immediately,  even  though  we  have  a  bible  on  this  table,   ran  to  the  bathroom  to  get  the  bigger  print  bible  and  told  me  how  wrong  that  was,  and  I  couldn’t   think  like  that,  and  please  don’t  say  that  in  front  of  anybody  because  I  would  embarrass  her  and  the   family.  And,  that  is  pretty  much  how  that  moment  went  and  it  did  define  me  for  a  little  while.   Because  then  I  felt  very  ashamed  that  I  even  thought  this  way.  So  that  defined  me  for  quite  a  bit.       I  did  live  in  a  house  where  my  parents  did  not  get  along,  they  did  not  divorce  until  after  I  had  grown   up  and  left  the  situation.  But,  while  we  didn’t  go  to  church  as  a  family,  we  typically  didn't.  It  was   very...  the  homophobia  was  evident  in  some  cases.  I  didn’t  realize  that  my  uncle  had  a  homosexual   relationship  because  nobody  talked  about  it.  Yeah,  so,  I  actually  thought  I  was  the  first  [laughs].  And   they  informed  me  that  he  had  one  and  it  was  a  bad  relationship.  So  I  am  assuming  my  general   family  got  a    bad  taste  in  their  mouth  from  that  relationship.       But,  my  childhood…  I’m  a  geek.  I  was  always  a  geek  and  that  never  really  changed.  I  am  into  Star   Trek  more  than  Star  Wars,  you  know.  I  had  fun.  I  was  the  geeky  kid  with  the  guitar  roaming  around   campus  in  high  school.  Singing  peace  songs  and  whatnot.  It’s  who  I  am.  It’s  not  for  everybody,  and  it   was  definitely  odd  for  the  little…  Black  nerds  were  not  a  thing!  When  I  was  growing  up,  it  was  just   2 �not  a  thing.  So  I  guess  people  may  have  seen  me  as  different  anyway  just  for  that,    but  I  didn’t  know   how  to  express  myself.  Sexually,  as  far  as  who  I  was,  and  sexual  identity,  I  think  I  just  got  lost  in  my   nerd  scope…  big  science  fiction  fan  and  I  kinda  stayed  there  because  sexuality  wasn’t  as  important   in  those  types  of  movies  and  books.  That's  really  my  childhood.  Geeks  and  very  confused  about  my   orientation.  [laughs]     4:28     CL:  So  do  you  think  that  had  a  lot  to  do  with  growing  up  in  the  [19]70s  where  it  was,  kind  of  a  cuspy   (cusp-­‐like)  type  of  era  where  things  were  changing,  but  also  were  drawing  back  on  the  past  and  the   tradition  of  things.  Like  we  were  talking  about  the  black  church  and  the  bible  on  the  table  but  also   the  one  in  the  bathroom  [laughs].  Do  you  think  that  had  an  effect  on,  I  guess,  the  confusion  or  the   thought  processes  you  were  going  through?  And  the  lived  experiences,  trying  to  figure  out  where   you  were?     5:02     AB:  I  think  that  the  ‘70s  in  itself,  cause  I  was  born  in  [19]73,  so  I  was  more  of  an  ‘80s  baby,  and  I   think,  honestly,  the  androgyny  of  some  of  the  ‘80s  helped  out.  I  do  remember  going  to  school,  my   grandmother,  the  same  one  who  was  very  upset  about  the  the  boy  in  a  girl’s  body…  “Family  Ties”   was  on  with  Michael  J.  Fox  and  I  for  some  reason  I  loved  that  character,  and  I  wanted  to  be  like  him.   So  we  went  to  JCPenny’s  and  we  got  me  a  blue  pantsuit.  And  I  had  a  little  briefcase.  And  I  was   roaming  the  halls  of  Woodrow  Wilson  [Junior  High  School]  thinking  I  was  it!  Cuz  you  know,  I  was   dressed  in  my  business  attire.  So,  you  know  there  were  pop  culture  things  that  did  influence  me  in   the  ‘80s.  Not  necessarily  black.  Culture  club.  That  androgyny  that  came  out…  So  a  lot  of  that  music   helps  you  feel  like  it  was  okay  to  be  you,  but  I  could  only  be  me  in  my  bedroom,  with  the  door   closed,  and  the  vacuum  cleaner  as  my  microphone  and  the  tennis  racket  as  my  guitar.  And  boy  was  I   pissed  if  somebody  opened  that  door.  I  could  be  me  in  that  aspect  and  I  didn’t  see  a  lot  of  role   models  for  me  at  that  moment.  The  androgyny  didn’t  really  cross  the  other  line.  Michael  Jackson   was  there  but  there  was  not  an  androgynous  component  to  it.    You  know.  Little  Richard  was  as   close  as  I  could  get  to  having  a  remotely  androgynous…  but  that  was  just  because  he  didn’t  want   people  thinking  he  was  trying  to  date  women.  For  me  it  was  a  strange  period.  As  far  as  the  ‘70s  I   was  just  very  very  young.  Disco  was  dying  by  the  time  I  started  listening  to  music.  But  I  do   remember,  my  parents  were  really  huge  into  music.  Played  Roberta  Flack  and  all  the  old  stuff.   Aretha  Franklin  was  big  in  our  house.  Stevie  Wonder  was  big  in  our  house.  But  as  far  as  that,  that   helped  me  to  identify  love.  And  peace  and  beauty  and  art,  but  it  didn't  help  me  to  identity  within   myself.  Not  that  the  ‘80s  did  either!  [laughs]  It  was  just  the  androgynous  complex.  It  wasn’t  so  hard   to  be  androgynous.  In  fact  I  was  in  high  school  when  I  was  asked  directly  if  I  was  gay.  And  I  said  no.   I  said  “nooo!”  I  even  dated  boys  to  prove  I  wasn’t  gay.  Oh  god.  You  know,  sometimes  I  dont  think   kids  realize  how  lucky  they  are  today.  And  in  some  cases  it’s  back  tracking.  They  were  lucky  under   the  past  administration  [Obama]  because  people’s  ignorance  and  their  anger  couldn’t  show  through   as  much.  So  now  it  almost  feels  if  it's  backtracking  to  where  you  don’t  necessarily  feel  as  safe  as  you   used  to.  Or  that  you  can  be  as  open  about  your  life  as  you  used  to.     Okay,  did  I  answer  it?  [laughs]  I  told  you  I  was  a  rambler.     3 �   8:28   CL:  Yeah  you  did.  No  you  did!  No,  it’s  alright.  I  like  rambling  for  the  purposes  of  us  talking  for  an   hour.  I  am  down  for  it.       8:37   AB:  Cool.     8:39   AB:  You  talking  about  the  blue  suit,  and  the  suitcase  at  Woodrow  [Wilson]...  was  that  still  in  middle   school?     8:49   AB:  Oh  yeah  ,  it  was  a  junior  high  at  the  time,  it  is  a  middle  school  now.  But  people  knew.  I  knew.  In   middle  school,  in  junior  high.  It  wasn’t  really  a  question.  In  fact,  I  went  by  “T”  because  I  was  so   masculine,  which  was  the  point.  And  Mr.  T,  even  though  he  had  been  out  the  the  picture  for  a  little   while  but  people  were  like  “Mr.  T  don’t  like  green(?),”  ya  know.  Like  “what?”  That  Mr.  T  reference   was  still  there.  And  I  guess  that  was  as  much  as  it  was  acknowledged.  But  boy,  did  I  fight  that  rumor   in  high  school  like  nobody’s  business  that  I  could  possibly  be  gay.  Because  let's  face  it,  black   churches,  woooh!  ‘70s,  ‘80s,  ‘90s,  ‘2000s,  they  had  no  part.  And  they  talked  pretty  openly  about   their  disdain  for  gays.  So  when  you  have  family  members,  you  know  not  my  immediate  family   members,  but  my  other  family  members  went  to  church…  We  apparently  went  like  Easter  and   Christmas…     9:58     CL:  So  y’all  were  like  the  holiday  ones?  [laughs]     9:59   AB:  Yeah,  the  holiday  visits.  “We  haven’t  seen  you  before!”  “A  lot  of  new  faces  in  the  crowd!!”  Thank   you  very  much.  Ya  know,  but  for  the  family  that  did  go  to  church,  especially  the  older  family,  there   wasn't  no  way  I  was  going  to  some  of  my  grandparents  and  saying  “I  am  gay.”  Or  their  sisters  or   brothers.  It  just  wasn’t  going  to  happen.  So  you  live  your  life  as  a  lie  and  that  sucks  so  bad.  I  lived   my  life  as  a  lie  so  hard  that  I  convinced  myself  for  a  period  of  time  that  “hey  maybe  I  could  be   straight!”  Ya  know,  I  got  married!  Had  a  kid!  I  am  thankful  for  the  child.  He  is  an  excellent  young   man.  And  had  I  not  gone  through  that  phase,  I  wouldn’t  have  him.    And  that  aspect,  great.  But  I  still   lived  part  of  my  life  as  a  lie.  And  thank  God  he  is  such  an  open  minded  young  man  and  he   understands,  and  he  is  a  true  ally,  becaus    he  is  straight  in  every  sense  of  the  word,  but  he’s  a  true   ally…  he’s  helped  me  deal  with  the  things  that  come.  He  let’s  me  know  that  it’s  okay.  He  was  there   for  me  when  I  decided  I  was  going  to  transition  which  was  a  long  time  coming.  He  is  a  great  ally  to   the  community…  but,  again,  I  was  never  straight.  And  I  think  there  are  a  lot  of  people  who  go   through  that.  I’m  not  the  only  one.  I  just  came  from  an  earlier  era  where  a  lot  of  us  tried  very  hard   to  make  our  parents  happy.  Mamas  will  gripe  about  grandbabies,  they  want  grandbabies,  and  it’s   very  hard  for  them  to  come  to  terms  with  maybe  you’re  not  getting  a  grandchild  out  of  this   4 �particular  daughter  or  son.  So  I  can  understand  that,  but  it  wasn't  my  truth  at  the  time.  Out  of  it   came  a  beautiful  young  man,  but  it  wasn’t  my  truth.  And  so  now,  at  44,  I  am  determined  to  live  my   truth.     I  don’t  know  if  I  answered  the  question  or  not.     12:00   CL:  You  did.  Trust  me,  if  you  don’t,  then  I  will  go  ahead  and  go  back  like,  “So!  Once  again...  Let  me   just  ask  you  this  question!”  but  no,  I  think  you  touched  on  it.  What  denomination  were  you  raised   with  or  brought  up  in…       12:14     AB:  I  can’t  tell  you.  [laughs]  I  really  can’t  tell  you,  because  it  was,  really,  we  just  showed  up  at  church   when  somebody  invited  us  and  they  hounded  us  about  it  .  Ya  know,  when  I  was  early  early  adult  I   was  baptized  Baptist  but  I  heard  some  very  disturbing  things  come…  We  had  an  outreach  program   and  we  went  down  to  Salem  Avenue  to  The  Samaritan  Inn  where  we  served  food…  We  were  out   during  the  day  and  there  were  some  women  of  the  night  so  to  speak  that  were  walking  on  the   corner  and  the  pastor  who  was  on  the  bus  that  took  us  there  he  said  something  about  “the  little   misguided  children…”  I  mean  he  was  very  negative.  That  was  the  most  positive  thing  he  had  to  said   and  it  clicked  with  me  right  then,  “is  this  really  where  I  wanted  to  be?”  “Am  I  a  Christian?  Yes.”  That   hasn’t  changed  for  me;  it  won’t  change  for  me.  I  am  not  an  organized  religion  person  because  I  find   so  much  of  that  within  organized  religion.  I  also  love  some  Buddhist  principles.  I  try  and  live  my  life   right.  I  try  and  be  good  to  other  people.  And  I  think  that  means  more  than  a  particular   denomination  or  anything  else.  Because  my  grandmother  she  took  me  to  church  one  time,  my  great   grandmother,  and  there  was  screaming  and  dancing  and  somebody  caught  the  Holy  Spirit.  I’ll  be   honest,  I  was  ten  and  I  was  petrified  because  I  didn't  know  what  was  going  on.  But  it’s  just  one  of   those  things  for  me,  organized  religion  didn’t  really  follow  what  I  was  doing  with  my  life.  Some  of   the  things  that  come  out  of  preachers’  mouths  scare  me.       14:13   CL:  Did  you  ever  confide  in,  while  you  were  in  the  youth,  you  said,  outreach  program?  Or  like  any   other  church  affiliated…  Christmas  time,  Easter  time,  whatever  conversation  you  would  have  had   with  other  church  members  or  congregation  members...  Did  you  confide  in  anybody  about  these   feelings  that  you  were  having,  or  did  it  just  stop  there  at  ten  saying  “I  just  can’t  talk  to  these  people.”     14:38   AB:  Well,  see  at  ten,  it  was  still  just  one  of  those  “come  along  for  a  holiday”  things.  And  that  was  the   way  it  was  during  my  life  and  I  never  really  confided  in  anybody  in  the  church.  I  wasn’t  close  to   anybody  in  the  church.  Ya  know,  I  was  only  there  two  times  a  year.       That  incident  with  the  Baptist  church  happened  when  I  was  18.  And  I  wouldn't've  confided  in   anybody  because  of  the  other  comments  that  went  around  on  the  bus.  It  made  me  literally  so   uncomfortable  that  I  think  I  went  back  one  more  time  and  then  I  stopped.  And  then  our  youngest   5 �child  went  to  a  church  in  Roanoke  last  year…  two  years  ago  is  when  he  went,  and  he  invited  us  to   come.  And  so  we  went  to  the  church  with  him.  And  the  pastor  deliberately  went  after  the  fact  that   we  were  gay.  From  the  instant  we  sat  down.  Because  we  had  let  him  [Anton’s  son]  go  with  a   neighbor.  I’ve  always  believed  in  letting  my  children  figure  out  the  path  for  them  as  far  as   spirituality  and  religion.    My  partner’s  Catholic,  or  was  born  Catholic.  So,  I  didn’t  want  to  force   anything  down  anybody,  ya  know?  Especially  my  kids.  You  find  your  way,  your  path,  that  fits  you.  I   guess  that  came  from  me  being  pushed  into  a  path.  “Let’s  be  straight!  So  everybody’s  happy!”       But,  ya  know,  it  was  really,  really  hard  to  sit  in  that  audience  while  that  pastor  deliberately   demeaned  us.  Cause  he  said,  “I  had  something  else  to  talk  about  today.”  “Oh  really?”  So  we  left  and   my  son  at  that  moment  said,  “  I  am  never  going  back”  and  he  hasn’t  been  back.  But  that  was  his   decision.  I  also  did  not  tell  him  he  could  not  go  back,  it  was  his  decision.  He  felt  that  what  happened   was  completely  inappropriate  and  wrong  in  the  spirit  of  God,  so  he  chose  not  to  go  back  and  I   respected  his  decision.  I’m  not  sure  how  I  would  have  felt  if  he  wanted  to  go  back,  but  luckily  he   came  to  me  before  that  time  and  said,  “I  am  just  not  going  back.”       I  have  no  idea  what  the  question  was  [laughs].       17:08     CL:  [whispers]  I  don’t  either,  it’s  fine.     So,  let’s  see.  You  said  18  was  about  when  that  incident  happened  and  we  kept  trucking  along  and   talked  about  your  son  and  how  recent  that  kind  of  conversation  was  about  “the  gays”  and  what  that   means  and  about  how  even  today  in  society,  like  in  2018,  where  that’s  a  common  word  and   understanding  like  people  who  are  gay  in  your  community  and  even  in  your  family,  but  it’s  still   even  recent  today  down  the  street,  going  to  the  church  on  Sunday…       [I  have  a]  question  about  when  you  started  going  to  places,  I  guess  on  the  flip  side  that  did  support   the  feelings  that  you  had…  Ohhh,  there’s  a  smile!  [Acknowledging  that  Anton  began  smiling]  So  the   feelings  that  you  had  about  who  you  are  and  you  trying  to  figure  that  out  in  the  spaces  that  allowed   you  to  actively  do  that.  So  I  know  that  The  Park  was  founded  in  ‘78  (1978),  which  was  a  few  years   after  you  were  born  so  you  clearly  weren’t  there  hanging  out  with  people,  but  how  was  that   happening?       18:14   AB:  The  truth  is,  as  far  as  places  that  were  defined  as  “safe,”  The  Park  was  the  only  place  that  I  knew   of.  However,  I  had  gotten  married  and  I  had  a  kid.  And  it  wasn’t  until  I  was  20  or  21  before  I  even   stepped  in  the  door  of  The  Park.  Keep  in  mind,  I  hadn’t  been  to  nightclubs.  I  had  a  baby.     18:48   CL:  When  did  you  get  married?     18:48   6 �AB:  I  was  18.  I  was  going  on  almost  19.  So  for  me,  to  step  into  The  Park,  I  think  I  had  a  two  year  old   son,  and  it  was…  Wow.  It  was  huge  for  me  because  I  had  never  been  to  a  nightclub.  Ya  know?  “Did   you  go  here,  or  here,  or  here?”  I  hadn’t  been  in  any  of  the  nightclubs.  But  my  mom  was  watching  my   son  for  a  weekend  and  I  was  like,  “okay,  well  I’ll  go  out!”  And  strangely  enough,  my  partner  now  is   who  took  me  to  The  Park.  It  was  three  of  us.  It  wasn’t  like  it  was  a  date  or  anything,  but  she  took  me.   She  had  to  explain  the  ins  and  the  outs,  ya  know.  Because,  I  didn’t  know!  I  thought  sometimes  when   people  asked  you  to  dance  that  was  all  that  was!  But,  ya  know,  I  went  there  and  there  was  this   music  just  thumpin,  this  whole  atmosphere  of  fun,  let  go.  And  then  that’s  when  I  realized  that’s  what   people  go  there  for.  It’s  the  one  place  they  can  be  themselves.  No  retribution,  no  judgement.  Ya   know,  because  I  saw  men  in  dresses  with  beards,  which,  I  was  like  “wow!”  Because  coming  out  of   this  straight  relationship  I  saw  drag  queens,  I  saw  DJs  just  getting  it  in  the  booth,  and  I  saw  people   on  a  quest  to  have  fun  and  be  themselves  and  not  be  scared.  So  that  was  a  beautiful  thing!  It  was   nice  to  have  that  space  where  I  could  just  be  me,  because  up  until  that  point,  I  had  not  experienced   it,  ya  know?  So  I  owe  a  lot  to  The  Park.  And  that  was  when  I  was  young,  just  so  I  could  figure  out  it   was  okay  to  be  me.  It’s  nice  when  you’re  surrounded  by  people  who  have  similar  interests,   especially  in  lifestyle.       There  was  a  big  period  of  time  when  I  was  away  from  The  Park.  I  had  kids  to  raise,  ya  know.  We   have  four  so  that’s  a  lot  of  kids.  At  one  point  my  niece  was  involved  with  us  too,  she  was  living  with   us,  too,  so  that’s  five,  so  that’s  a  lot.  I  didn’t  start  going  back  until  my  youngest  turned  13.  But  again,   I  was  a  shut-­‐in  for  a  very  long  time.    Can’t  tell  you  about  other  bars,  because  I  never  went.  I  was  a   shut-­‐in,  because  of  the  agoraphobia.  Agoraphobia  is  Greek  for  “fear  of  the  marketplace,”  basically   means  you  can’t  stand  to  be  in  crowds.  I  have  severe  panic  attacks,  tra-­‐la-­‐la-­‐la.  Um,  but,  after  that…   [directed  at  Caitlyn]  Did  you  want  me  to  go  into  that  now  or  later?       21:49   CL:  If  you  wanted  to  go  into  that  now,  you  are  more  than  welcomed  to.       21:52   AB:  In  2012,  my  partner  was  very  tired  of  not  doing  things  together…     22:03   CL:  And  this  is  the  partner  that  brought  you  to  The  Park?     22:05   AB:  Yeah.  No,  she  wasn’t  my  partner  at  that  time,  but  we  ended  up  getting  together  in  1995.  And  she   wanted  us  to  do  things  together,  out  in  public.  But  of  course  I  had  the  issues.  So  she  convinced  me,   “okay,  we  can’t  go  to  Pride  In  The  Park.  Can  we  just  go  to  The  Park  after?”  And  I  was  like  “okay,  we   can  go  to  The  Park.”  And  you  know,  I  had  to  take  a  Xanax  because  I  knew  I  was  going  to  flip  out.  And   that’s  the  one  thing  you  don’t  want,  is  someone  having  to  call  the  ambulance,  and  people  all   gawking  at  you  and  everything.  So  we  went  in  and  that  bar  was  filled  with  people,  filled  with  love,  it   was  the  last  day  of  Pride  weekend,  it  was  fantastic.  And  while  I  missed  Pride  In  The  Park  the   festival,  as  soon  as  you  walked  in  there  was  this  feeling  of  love  and  encouragement.  “Come  in,  be   7 �yourself.”  So  we  went  that  night  and  it  was  the  first  time  that  I  had  been  out  in  public  that  I  wasn't   afraid.  I  wasn’t  afraid  of  a  panic  attack.  I  wasn’t  afraid  that  anybody  would  say  anything  to  me  or   directly  about  me  or  be  horrible  to  me  in  some  way  or  judge  me  in  some  way.  So  that  was  really  the   turning  point  for  me  and  I  owe  a  great  deal  of  that  to  that  bar.  And  it’s  not  about  the  alcohol…  Back   when  I  went,  they  didn’t  even  have  the  alcohol.  They  had  beer  and  that  was  it.  There  was  no  mixed   beverages.  It  was  just  nice  to  be  in  a  room  full  of  people  that  all  felt  we  deserved  to  love  who  we   wanted.  So  that  was  special  for  me.  And  that  was  really  the  turning  point  for  me,  that  was  my   established  place  where  it  was  like  a  second  home,  and  it  still  is  to  me  to  this  day.  It’s  the  one  place   that  I  know  that  outside  of  these  four  walls  that  I  know  I  will  be  loved  and  accepted  for  who  I  am.  So   yeah,  it’s  extremely  important  to  me.  That  is  why  I  joined  Pride,  to  do  my  part.  Because  there  is  a   community  out  here  that  needs  us,  and  they  need  us  in  several  different  ways.  Roanoke  Pride  is  not   just  about  that  festival.  Yes,  the  festival  is  huge;  it’s  got  to  be.  Because  that’s  where  people  from  all   over  Southwestern  Virginia  come  to  celebrate  who  they  are  together.  And  our  allies  because  God   knows  we  love  them.  That’s  why  that  day  is  so  important,  but  we  do  so  much  more  than  that.  So,  for   me,  that’s  me  giving  back  to  the  place  that  gave  to  me.     25:05   CL:  When  did  you  start  being  a  part  of  the  Pride  process?  Whether  it  be  inside  The  Park  or  at  the   park  where  the  big  Pride  festival  outdoors  [happens]?     25:18     AB:  Um,  that’s  a  strange  question  and  it  has  a  slightly  lengthy  answer.  I  told  you  I  came  out  of  the   house  to  The  Park  in  2012.  There  was  a  cancer  benefit  March  9th  of  2013  and  I  participated  in  that   with  my  youngest  daughter  and  that  was  the  first  time  I  was  on  stage.  And  because  we  were  raising   money  for  cancer,  I  said  “you  can  get  past  the  agoraphobia  for  this  moment.”  Or  at  least  I  thought  I   could.  Again,  I  had  someone  else  on  stage  with  me  so  that  was  beautiful  and  helped  me  in  that   moment.  But,  raising  the  money  for  cancer  we  did  the  song  by  U2  “Together”  with  Mary  J.  Blige  and   the  reception  was  really  good  for  that.  It  was  my  first  time  on  stage.  And  that  let  me  know  that  I   could  be…  I  could  focus  on  something  different.  Yes,  I’d  be  the  first  one  to  admit  that  the  vacuum   cleaner  and  the  guitar…  ya  know,  I  think  everybody  has  that  want  when  they  are  young.  But  drag   helped  change  the  way  I  looked  at  things  as  Anton.  So,  ya  know,  I  went  out  for  that  and  then  my   drag  father  said  why  don’t  you  do  this  trailer  park  show  or  trailer  park  pageant.  I  did  that  and  I  won   that,  so  I  was  like  “oh,  cool.”  That  started  me  being  at  The  Park  more.  That  was  still  five  years  ago.  I   didn’t  really  jump  into  Pride  because  I  won  Mr.  Roanoke  MI  in  2013  also,  or  Mr.  Roanoke  Pride  MI…     27:23   CL:  Could  you  specify  what  MI  means?       27:26   AB:  It’s  Male  Impersonator.  I  won  that  in  2013  also.  I  didn't  really  help  out  with  the  board,  or  a  lot  of   stuff,  but  for  the  last  two  years…  last  year…  my  family…  I  have  a  drag  family  named  the  Black  family   and  part  of  my  belief  is  that  you  have  to  give  back  to  the  community.  So  that’s  extremely  important   to  the  members  of  my  family  because  it's  a  requirement;  that’s  just  part  of  being  a  Black.  So  we   8 �started  going,  if  there  was  a  big  event  outside  we  would  put  up  the  fencing,  things  like  that.  We   didn’t  so  much  become  involved  with  the  board  or  with  Pride  and  PRISM  until  this  year.  We  helped   out  with  the  angel  tree  last  year  and  we  helped  with  the  angel  tree  this  year,  but  for  the  last  two   years  a  lot  of  our  focus  has  really  been  on  Roanoke  Pride  and  PRISM  in  particular  and  seeing  what   ways  we  can  help  the  community.  Right  down  to  a  project  that  I  am  extremely  excited  about;  it's  a   clothing  closet.  LGBTQ  clothing  closet  and  the  reason  I  am  so  excited  about  it  is  because  we  have   this  moment  where  unfortunately  the  political  elements  are  kind  of  drifting  backwards  where  we   had  some  recognition  and  some  openness  and  actual  love  being  shown  to  us  up  until  2016,  some  of   that’s  changed.  But  we  do  still  have  transgender  members  of  our  community.    And  these  people   need  to  get  jobs.  If  they’re  FTM  [female-­‐to-­‐male]  they  need  binders,  ya  know.  If  they  are  living  their   life,  we  feel  like  we  need  to  help  them.  And  binders  are  not  inexpensive.  They  cost  around  $40   typically,  give  or  take.  Wigs  that  you  can  wear  to  work  are  not  inexpensive  so  for  MTFs  [male-­‐to-­‐ females]  we  are  gonna  need  wigs,  makeup.  We  have  people  who  are  willing  to  do  seminars  with   them  so  that  they  can  feel  comfortable  in  the  body  they  are  in  and  get  the  job  that  they  want  and   desire.  We  are  also  talking  about  doing  seminars  to  help  people  interview,  ya  know  these  are  things   that  directly  give  back.  We  need  to  help  the  youth  in  the  community;  we  need  them  to  feel  good   about  who  they  are.  So  the  clothing  closet  is  huge  in  that  aspect.  Also  business  clothing.  Hopefully   we  will  get  really  good  results  and  have  people  be  able  to  be  their  best  selves  as  they  pursue   whatever  that  job  they  are  looking  for  in  the  workforce.  And  we  are  always  open  to  other  ways  we   can  help.  That’s  a  good  thing.  Because  there  are  things  we  haven’t  thought  of  or  kicked  off.  We  are   also  talking  about  a  food  closet;  those  plans  are  in  action  because  let’s  face  it,  there  are  plenty  of   LGBTQ  people  who  are  in  need.  And  the  way  things  have  been  going  recently,  they  don’t  necessarily   feel  comfortable  going  to  the  churches  that  they  would  have  gone  to  previously,  or  the  other   organizations.  So  we  want  to  take  care  of  our  own  and  be  good  to  people.  Did  I  answer  the   question?       30:58   CL:  You  did.  No  you  did.  I’m  telling  you,  I  will  bring  it  right  back  home.  So  you  were  talking,  and  you   got  super  excited.  You  put  down  your  cup,  you  sat  up  a  little  bit,  you're  like,  “here  is  this  clothes   closet.”  So  do  you  think  that  as  a  trans  man  that  you  would  have  benefitted  from  that?  So  say  that   this  existed  ten  years  ago,  do  you  think  that  that  would  have  helped  you  with  your  Anton  life?     31:27     AB:  God,  yes!  See,  the  funny  thing  is,  at  one  point  when  I  was  much  younger,  when  I  went  to  the  bar,   I  saw  Rosa  Parks…  no,  Rosa  Lakes,  I’m  so  sorry.  She  was  a  drag  queen.  She  wasn’t  the  prettiest,  and   unfortunately  she  had  been,  according  to  what  I  heard,  had  been  beaten  very  badly  at  some  point  by   some  men  who  didn’t  appreciate  her.  She  held  her  head  to  the  side.  The  one  thing  I  remembered  is   she  would  always,  “It’s  my  birthday!!  You  gonna  buy  me  a  drink?!”  She  was  a  short,  little,  black  trans   woman  or…  it’ll  probably  be  just  “transvestite”  in  that  aspect.  But  I  remember  her  being  on  stage…   she  was  not  the  most  fearsome  drag  queen  by  any  means,  but  she  let  me  know  in  that  instant,   because  she  was  the  first  one  that  I  had  ever  seen  on  stage,  it’s  okay.  If  she  could  be  up  there…  she   wasn’t  decked  out  in  jewels  or  anything  but  she  was  having  her  moment  on  stage  and  you  couldn’t   tell  her  nothing.  She  thought  she  was  Diana  Ross  on  that  stage.  And  she  let  me  know  it’ll  be  okay.   9 �And  the  only  thing  I  could  think  of  was,  “damn,  why  can’t  guys  do  this?”  But  it  was  just  because  I   hadn’t  seen  it.  So  that  thought  was  probably  in  my  head  since  21,  but  I  still  hadn’t  seen  a  male  lead.   And  apparently  I  missed  a  lot  of  male  lead  for  the  years  that  I  was  out…  what  was  your  question?     33:32   CL:  I  was  asking  if  the  closet  that  you  were  talking  about  would  also  have  helped  you.  So  you  started   talking  about,  I  remember  the  name  that  you  were…       33:35     AB:  Rosa  Lakes!       33:35     CL:  Rosa  Lakes!  You  were  talking  about  Rosa  Lakes…     33:40     AB:  Now  I  remember  where  I  was  …  it’s  a  circular  transition.  Um,  for  me,  it  would  have  helped.  It   would  have  helped  to  have  somebody  to  talk  to.  And  that’s  another  thing  we  wanted  to  provide  for   people  is  to  have  somebody  to  talk  to.  Because  if  you  don’t  have  anybody  to  talk  to,  you  don’t  know   what  the  hell  you  are  doing.  Binding  and  binding  daily,  ya  know,  there  are  things  that  are  important.   Some  of  these  youngsters  are  out  here  and  they  are  damaging  themselves  using  Ace  bandages.  We   want  them  to  do  it  the  proper  way.  Where,  when  they,  if  they,  elect  to  have  the  surgery,  that  the   doctor  doesn’t  have  a  harder  time.  Or  that  they  don’t  damage  the  breast  tissue  they  have.  It’s   important  for  them  to  have  somebody  to  talk  to.  I  didn’t  have  that  in  this  whole  thing…    I’m  sorry   [was  reacting  to  Caitlyn  asking  him  to  not  tap  on  the  table]  I’m  tapping  the  table?       34:40   CL:  No  you’re  okay!  We  have  it  on  the  big  little  box  thing,  but  also  [referring  to  the  book  the  recorder   is  sitting  on].  Thank  you,  Kitty.     34:45   AB:  Got  you,  thank  you.  Um,  ya  know.  It  would  have  been  nice  to  have  someone  to  talk  to  to  help  me   through  certain  aspects  of  it.  Now,  you  can  learn  certain  aspects  of  it  through  drag,  which  is  where  I   did  learn  it.  But  as  far  as  a  transitioning  person…  they  need  someone  to  talk  to.  Someone  to  walk   that  line  with  them,  someone  to  call.  Because  it’s  hard,  I  don’t  care  who  you  are.  You  are  going  to   have  family  members  that  are  cool  and  you're  gonna  have  family  members  that  absolutely  detest  it;   you're  gonna  have  family  members  that  talk  shit…  it's  a  big  range  of  things,  ya  know?    And  I  think   that’s  why  The  Park  is  so  central.  It’s  because  at  least  that’s  the  one  place  where  your  cousins  that   you  grew  up  throwing  water  balloons  with  and  playing  water  guns  and  hide  and  seek  and  duck   duck  goose,  all  of  a  sudden  they  want  nothing  to  do  with  you.  “Oh,  oh,  cause  you’re  like  that...”   Facebook  is  awful,  in  some  cases,  because  that’s  where  you  learn  some  of  your  family  members  they   agree  with  the  bathroom  bill,  and  you’re  like,  “oh,  did  you  forget  I  am  trans?”  “We  gotta  protect  our   children!”  Stop.  Stop.  There  have  been  no  trans  bathroom  incidents,  ya  know?  It’s  hard.  It’s  hard,   and  The  Park  is  that  place  where  I  can  be  me.  The  least  I  can  do  is  help  other  people  to  be   10 �themselves.    So  I  think  that’s  what  I  am  getting  back  to,  yes.  I  wish  that  had  been  there  before  for   me.  The  trailblazers  did  so  much.  They  couldn’t  cover  every  angle  and  every  aspect  and  nobody   knew  that  being  trans  would  come  to  the  forefront  during  Obama’s  presidency.  Trans  people  were   like,  “what?  What’s  going  on?”  It’s  a  process  of  learning  together,  trying  to  be  there  for  one  another,   and  being  represented.  That’s  the  other  thing.  I  don’t  know  a  lot  of  other  black  trans  men.  But  I  do   know  other  trans  men.  But  in  my  experience,  being  black,  growing  up  in  a  black  household…  luckily   I  didn't  have  the  church  everyday.  I  know  a  lot  of  black  trans  women.  I  didn’t  have  the  constant   church  thing  so  I  didn’t  get  berated  on  the  church  side.  I  didn’t  have  to  worry  about  that.  But  I  did   have  the  Bible  thumpers  in  my  family  who  were  more  than  happy  to  berate  me  at  home  or  if  I  went   over  to  their  house  or  something  like  that.  Times  change,  but  as  we  can  tell  from  the  current   political  climate,  some  things  stay  the  same.       37:49   CL:  Alright,  so  we  are  at  like  37  minutes,  you  said  that  you  wanted  to  maybe  take  a  break.  Would   that  be  good  for  you?         37:54     AB:  That’d  be  fantastic.       37:58     CL:  Cool,  so  we  will  take  a  break  and  we’ll  be  back!     [END  OF  PART  ONE]           Part  Two  (20:51)   0:00   CL:  So  we  are  back  now  after  our  little  break  and  conversations  on  the  porch,  which  I  enjoyed.  So   last  we  talked  about  The  Park  and  drag  and  how  that  was  kind  of  your  pivotal  coming  out,  well   another  pivotal  point  because  [19]95  you  going  there  was  a  pivotal  point  where  you  saw  people   just  having  fun,  wanting  to  be  there,  enjoying  their  lives,  living  their  lives  as  they  want  to  and  as   they  could  try  to.  Tell  me  about  your  drag  experience  and  your  journey  in  drag  and  how  that  came   about.     0:39   AB:  March  9th,  2012,  I  decided  to  be  in  the  cancer  benefit  because  I  have  lost  a  lot  of  family   members  to  cancer…  and  friends.  So  for  me  it  was,  “go  ahead  and  do  this  this  one  time.  This  one   time  just  go  do  it.  Knock  it  off  your  bucket  list.”  Because  honestly  The  Park  was  the  only  place  that  I   felt  safe.  So  I  went  up  there,  I  had  my  daughter  with  me,  we  did  U2  “One,”  and  we  got  great  feedback   from  the  crowd.  The  crowd  really  liked  it.  That  was  my  first  time  on  stage  so  I  was  not  quite  sure.  I   was  as  boogerfied  as  they  come,  but  the  reception  from  the  crowd  was  incredible.  And  that  love  that   11 �I  felt    coming  back  to  me,  giving  me  energy,  making  me  want  to  give  them  more…  that  was  the  bug   that  bit  me.    Now  I’m  not  going  to  act  like  it  bit  me  instantly.  I  felt  great  that  night,  but  the  next  day  I   was  like,  I  am  never  going  back  on  stage!  It’s  just  not  happening.  I  don’t  know  why  anyone  would   think  about  it!  But  a  friend  of  mine,  who  ended  up  being  my  drag  father,  looked  at  my  performance   and  said,  “I  think  you  oughta  go  and  try  the  trailer  park.”    I  don’t  know  what  the  trailer  park  is…     1:58   CL:  And  was  that  2013?       2:00   AB:  No,  that  was  still  2012.     2:03     CL:  Okay.     2:04   AB:  Um,  hold  up.  Maybe  it  was  2013…?     2:08   CL:  You  mentioned  something  about  the  trailer  park,  and  I  imagined  what  you  said.  You  were   crowned  and  I  think  that  was  2013.  But  also,  that  was  your  life,  so  don’t  let  me…     2:17     AB:  It  was  neat  because  they  looked  at  the  video  from  my  performance  and  they  were  like,  “you   gotta  do  the  trailer  park.  I’ll  draw  you  up  a  talent  and  everything.  I’ll  practice  with  you.  You  just  go   in  there  and  do  it.”  “Okay.”  They  drew  up  the  talent,  great  talent.  And  they  drilled  it  into  me  how  to   do  it.  And  we  did  this  cutesy  little  thing  where  I  was  in  a  chair  and  I  was  acting  like  I  was  driving   and  we  did  these  lines  from  “The  Great  American  Trailer  Park  Show.”  It’s  an  off-­‐Broadway  show.   And  it  was  a  hit.  It  was  fantastic.  I  was  crowned  King  of  the  trailer  park.  And  you  get  trailer  park   gifts…in  fact…  [Anton  walking  over  to  a  china  cabinet  with  crowns  inside]     Right  here,  I  know  people  can’t  see  it,  but  right  here  is  my  King  of  The  Trailer  Park  crown.  Which   was  really  really  interesting  and  really  really  fun.  That’s  part  of  what  gave  me  “I  am  actually  pretty   decent  at  this.”  Ya  know,  when  you  do  something  and  you  feel  good  about  it,  even  if  I  hadn’t  won  I   would  have  felt  good  about  it,  because  of  the  audience  reception.  I  was  like,  “I  can  maybe  do  this.”  I   like  performing,  I  like  giving  something  to  the  crowd.  For  me,  I  am  supposed  to  make  the  audience   forget  for  3  ½  to  4  ½  minutes  about  their  bills,  about  their  husband  problems,  their  wife  problems,   electricity  is  about  to  get  cut  off…  whatever  the  issue  is!  About  their  crappy  boss…  I  need  to  take   them  somewhere  else  for  3  ½  to  4  ½  minutes  or  however  long  my  song  is  or  number  is.  And  before   that,  I  wrote  a  lot.  I  don’t  write  as  much  anymore,  but  I  wrote  a  lot.  Because,  that’s  how  I  express   myself.  Now,  drag  is  really  where  I  express  myself.       4:19     12 �CL:  Were  you  writing  plays,  or  poems,  or  songs…     4:22   AB:  I  was  writing  novels.  I  have  two!       4:24   CL:  Oh!  Books?!  [laughs  with  Anton]     4:25   AB:  Still  too  chicken  to  frickin  send  them  off!  Drives  me  crazy.  Two.  Two.  Of  course,  I  am  a  geek,  so   one  is  paranormal  and  the  other  one  is  just  science  fiction.  So  I  guess  that  is  the  best  way  to  say  it.  I   have  these  passions  and  when  I  get  passionate  about  something,  it  gets  scary  because  then  I  lose  my   mind.  And  part  of  that  is  that  I  have  a  hard  time  staying  focused  after  the  strokes  [laughs].  I  am   going  at  different  directions.  But  if  it's  something  that  means  a  lot  to  me,  I’m  gonna  give  it  my   everything.  Just  like  as  far  as  drag  performances.     I  had  a  stroke.  I  have  a  very  hard  time  remembering  lyrics,  so  if  it  means  something  big  to  me,  then   imma  do  it.  If  people  ask  me  to  do  a  song  or  if  I  feel  there  is  a  song  that  needs  to  be  done,  like  “Not   Afraid”  by  Eminem.  I  have  friends  who  are  drug  addicts,  I  have  a  daughter  who  has  some  issues.   That  was  huge  for  me  to  learn  all  those  lyrics.  I  have  to  learn  them,  not  only  do  them  correctly  on   stage,  pronounce  them  right,  do  everything  right.  But  I’m  not  just  standing  there.  I  have  to  be   interactive  with  the  lyrics  and  the  audience.  So  I  practice  a  lot  typically,  but  that’s  just  so  I  give  the   audience  a  good  show.       Drag  is  also  where  I  rediscovered  that  trans—the  true  part  of  me.  Because  I  had  buried  that  deep   after  that  whole  Bible  thing  with  my  grandma,  I  buried  it  really  deep.  But  I  realized  when  I  was   putting  on  beards  and  looking  in  the  mirror,  “this  is  who  I  am.”  And  Anton  who  you  see  on  stage  is   truly  who  I  aspire  to  be.  I’m  not  that  comfortable  in  real  life.  I  am  awkward  and  geeky.  He  is  kind  of   suave  and  he  can  be  thuggish  from  time  to  time  for  a  song,  but  it  helped  me  recognize  that  was  the   first  time  I  felt  comfortable  in  my  own  skin.  With  a  beard  and  a  binder.  What  am  I  going  to  do?  I   walk  like  a  dude,  typically  talk  like  a  dude.  Love  sports,  and  get  obnoxious,  like  a  dude.  Typical,   quote-­‐unquote,  and  not  trying  to  say  anything  against  gender  fluidity  or  anythingh,  but  I  was  born   in  [19]73.  I  know  how  dudes  do  things,  I  know  how  women  do  things.  I  have  no  interests…  don’t  ask   me  about  heels…  people  be  talking  about  “have  you  seen  my  purse?”  “What  does  it  look  like?”  “Oh,   it’s  a  Michael  Kors.”  “That  means  nothing  to  me!  Is  it  brown?!”  [laughs].  I  don’t  know  what  you’re   talking  about.  And  it  bites…  I  have  no  interest.  I  never  have.  And  honestly,  my  family  would   sometimes  get  me  girly  presents.  I  did  not  know  how  to  acknowledge  them.  They’re  like,  “oh  here.  I   got  you  this  for  your  birthday.”  “What  am  I  going  to  do  with  this  sweater  because  I  am  never  going   to  wear  it!”  I  wore  a  dress  once  in  my  life  and  it  was  graduation.  They  painted  my  face,  they  stuck   me  in  some  heels  that  I  could  not  walk  in  and  so  they  got  me  some  smaller  heels.    I  graduated  in  a   dress.  Don’t  come  at  me  with  a  dress  for  my  funeral.  I  did  not  live  as  a  woman.  I  am  not  gonna  die   and  be  put  in  a  box  as  one  either…  now  that  I  am  off  topic  [laughs]...  but  seriously,  drag  helped  me   figure  a  lot  out.  It  helped  me  learn  to  connect  with  people,  because  I  had  trouble  connecting  with   13 �people.  And  music  is  always  this  beautiful  thing  that  crosses  every  boundary.  It  doesn’t  matter.  I     have  neighbors  on  both  sides  who  play  Spanish  music  all  the  time.  I  do  not  know  a  single  word  that   is  in  those  songs,  but  I  understand  and  appreciate  the  music.  And  everybody  can  understand  and   appreciate  music,  so  for  drag,  that’s  just  me  dressing  up,  putting  on  a  show,  with  the  one  medium   that  connects  everybody.  I  used  to  think  it  was  math,  but  really  it’s  music  [laughs].         8:58   CL:  Isn’t  there  math  in  music  too?  Because  there  is  always…  both.       9:00   AB:  Oh  yeah!  Absolutely!  Absolutely.  It’s  the  one  thing.  If  you’re  upset,  you  listen  to  the  radio  or   Pandora,  or  whatever  people  listen  to.  But  there  is  always  music.  You  hear  about  people  jumping  in   their  car  and  driving  and  just  listening  to  music.  It  touches  us  on  such  a  primal  level.  That’s  one  of   the  reasons  I  love  drag.  We  can  get  that  emotional.  We  can…  Sometimes  our  audience  cries.  I’ve   made  people  cry  before  and  have  to  go  out  after  the  song  and  hug  them  and  they  tell  me  their  story   why  it  made  them  cry.  I’ve  had  that  happen  to  me  in  [19]95.  A  queen  did  “Don’t  Let  The  Sun  Go   Down  On  Me”...  it  meant  a  lot  to  me.  My  uncle  had  died  of  AIDS  and  it  was  relatively  recent  after  that   and  you  can  just  touch  people  in  special  ways.  You  can  hype  them  up,  or  you  can  make  them  cry,  or   you  can  just  make  them  smile.  There  are  so  many  ways  you  can  go  with  it,  that’s  why  it  means  a  lot   to  me.       10:01   CL:  Was  that  the  uncle  who  wasn’t  really  talked  about?  That  had  that  bad  relationship  or  was  that  a   different  uncle?     10:07     AB:  Oh  no,  that  was  the  same  uncle.  Now,  he  did…  while  he  had  the  gay  relationship,  he  ended  up   having  several  hetero  relationships  and  had  kids  in  those  relationships  but  nobody  ever  spoke   about  the  gay  relationship.  It  was  just  this  hush-­‐hush  thing.  But  we  get  Christmas  cards  from  some   of  my  family,  and  from  my  girl’s  family…  we  get  Christmas  cards  from  them.  Almost  23  years,  we’re   not  a  phase.  We’re  gonna  be  together.  And  regardless  if  you  like  it  or  not,  that’s  just  how  it's  gonna   be.  I  think  because  there  wasn’t  this  jump  to  another  relationship,  because  we  all  know  the  adage   [about]  lesbians  and  U-­‐Hauls…  they  say  it  all  the  time.  And  sometimes  it  still  happens  to  this  day.   But  for  me,  having  a  loving  and  affirmative  relationship  with  the  same  person  means  the  world  to   me.  Because  nobody  else  will  put  up  with  me  [laughs].  I  am  being  really  honest.  I  am  a  mess.  Truly  a   mess.  I’m  okay  with  that!  I  try  to  get  better  everyday,  but  there  are  aspects  of  me  that  while  they   may  slip  their  phone  number  in  with  that  one  when  they  hand  it  to  me  on  stage,  they  do  not  want  to   bring  me  home  for  any  reason.  I  am  needy,  [begins  laughing]  I  am  whiney,  I’m  a  mess.     11:44   CL:  You  are  also  this  amazing,  from  what  I  am  hearing  and  I  am  labeling  you  as  this  so  take  it  back  if   you  need  to  and  we  can  talk  about  it,  but  like  an  activist  in  the  community  to  a  certain  level  [by]   creating  space.  Do  you  feel  like  you’re  an  activist?  Is  that  a  word…  Because  I  know  that  is  a   14 �conversation  now  like,  “okay,  I  am  a  feminist,  I  am  an  activist,  I  am  this  X,Y,Z”  that  also  has  all  these   other  connotations  to  it  so  you  may  or  may  not  identify  as  that.       12:14   AB:  I  don’t  know  if  I  identify  as  an  activist.  I  identify  as  this  one  messed  up  person  trying  to  make   this  corner  of  their  world  better.  I  don’t  do  well  with  crowds,  so  as  far  as  me  being  out  there  on   marches  or  anything  like  that…  ahhh  [sound  to  convey  uncomfortability]...  that’s  who  I  view  the   activist  as.  They  are  down  there  and  they  are  doing  the  nitty  gritty.  I  do  things  behind  the  scenes  a   lot,  except  for  the  drag  part.  I  don’t  identify  as  an  activist.  I  wish  that  more  people  would  just  try   and  clean  up  their  corner.  And  I  think  that  if  we  can  get  together  and  do  that,  we  could  make   Roanoke  a  better  place,  this  spot  a  better  place.  We  have  colleges  that  we  were  contacting  in   reference  to  setting  up  booths  for  Pride,  who  no  longer  have  LGBTQ  groups.  I  went,  “what  just   happened?!”  I  think  that  stunned  me  so  much,  I  didn’t  know  what  to  do.  Because  people  thought  we     were  getting  complacent  once  Obama  was  openly  recognizing  us  and  that  places  were  talking  about   “we’re  LGBTQ  friendly.”  I  think  people  got  complacent,  because  I  heard  comments  like  “why  do  we   even  need  gay  bars?”  And  I  was  like  “Hold  the  damn  phone!”  Because  I  know  how  things  work.   While  Obama’s  in  office,  things  are  getting  better,  but  I  do  not  know  who  takes  over  after  him.  So  we   don’t  know  if  this  is  going  to  continue,  and  we  don’t  know  if  this  will  get  rolled  back,  and  the  truth  is   it  got  rolled  back.  There’s  reports  all  over  the  place,  if  people  would  dare  to  look,  where  LGBTQ   rights  are  being  taken  away.  So,  I  don't  know.  Maybe  activist  could  be  in  my  future,  but,  I  have  way   too  many  panic  attacks  [laughs],  ya  know?  You  can’t  call  a  big  gathering  and  get  carted  away  in  an   ambulance  because  you  had  a  bad  moment.  And  everything  is  on  Facebook  and  Instagram…  I  really   don’t  need  that  going  out  to  the  world.  I  just  believe  in  making  the  world  a  better  place.       Right  now  my  focus  is  for  LGBTQ  youth  and  adults…  we’ve  got  to  do  better.  And  that’s  not  taking   anything  away  from  the  people  who’ve  paved  the  way,  because  it  used  to  be  a  lot  worse  than  it  is   today.  In  fact,  two  years  ago  it  was  better  than  it  is  today.  So,  ya  know,  we’ve  got  a  lot  of  work  to  do.   And  as  long  as  we  continually  plug  away  at  doing  the  work,  we  can  help  people  and  we  can  see  that   suicide  rate  come  down,  because  LGBTQ  teens  are  five  times  more  likely  to  try  and  commit  suicide.   The  numbers  are  staggering  and  we  don’t  have…  back  when  I  was  growing  up  it  was  Matthew   Shepard.  His  mother  started  a  foundation,  but  we  don’t  have  that  right  now.  Another  horrible   tragedy.  We  had  Pulse,  and  it  seems  like  that  happened,  we  acknowledged  it,  and  we  were  all  very   hurt  by  it,  but  it  seems  like  as  a  country  we’ve  moved  on,  and  that  hurts  my  heart,  because  those   people  died.  I  haven’t  moved  on  from  it.  They  wanted  to  dance.  When  I  went  to  The  Park,  I  wanted   to  dance…  and  to  go  in  there  and  be  shot  up  and  killed  and  to  be  wounded  for  life,  the  ones  who   made  it  out…  they’re  wounded  for  life  psychologically.  For  the  ones  who  are  wounded,  they’re  still   wounded  for  life.  I  just  think  that  have  to  take  steps  to  avert  these  horrible  things  from  happening,   especially  in  this  climate.  And,  we  have  to  take  care  of  our  brothers  and  sisters;  that  is  primary.  We   have  to  make  sure  this  kids  have  a  place  to  go,  we  have  to  make  sure  these  adults  have  a  place  to  go.     And  they  can  always  make  themselves  better.    I  hope  the  community  can  get  behind  that.       16:34   15 �CL:  So  we  are  kinda  creeping  up  on  an  hour.  I  have  maybe  two  or  three  more  questions  to  ask,  but   you  are  definitely  taking  it  and  running  with  it,  which  is  great.  It’s  not  at  all  a  bad  thing,  but  I  just   wanted  to  be  sure  we  have  enough  time  and  want  to  be  sure  that  it’s  okay  with  everybody  in  the   room  that  we  keep  going  for  those  two  or  three  questions.  Cool?  [received  confirmation  from  Kitty   and  Anton].  Cool.           So,  we  were  talking  about  family  a  little  bit,  and  you  said  that  you  have  the  Black  family,  which  is   your  drag  family,  and  y’all’s  mission  statement  or  what  y’all  are  about  (like  be  about  it,  you  bout  it),   is  to  help  people  who  are  like  you.  To  help  the  people  that  are  in  your  community  and  finding   different  ways  to  do  that,  but    my  question  I  guess  is  how  did  that  family  start?  I  know  that  you  said   you  had  a  drag  father…  well,  I  guess  he’s  still  your  drag  father  for  all  eternity…       17:26   AB:  Yes.     17:27   CL:  So,  I  guess  tell  me  the  family  tree,  or  the  steps  or  whatever  you  want  to  tell  me  about  the  Black   family.     17:35   AB:  I’m  the  patriarch  of  the  Black  family.  I  have  been  in  drag  for  almost  five  years.  For  me,  it  was…   there  are  other  families  in  Roanoke  and  drag  means  different  things  to  other  families  in  Roanoke.   For  me,  it  was  we  are  kind  of  the  misfit  toys.  Imma  be  as  honest  as  I  can  be.  The  Black  family,  in   itself,  we  all  have  some  issues.  Which  I  think  is  fantastic,  and  I  am  being  honest,  because  none  of  us   think  we  are  better  than  anybody.  We  all  have  some  of  those  issues  of  self  doubt,  self  worth.  As  a   family,  we  come  together  and  we  help  each  other…  we  pick  each  other  up.  Now,  sometimes,  as  the   patriarch,  I  have  to  clamp  down  on  somebody  and  sometimes  they  get  butt-­‐hurt  about  it,  I’m  not   going  to  lie.  It’s  about  becoming  better.  And  they  push  me  to  be  better.  If  I  don’t  do  something  I  am   not  supposed  to…  if  I  don’t  handle  something  I  am  supposed  to  handle  they  let  me  know,  “Pops!   How  about  this?”  ya  know?  So,  for  me,  I’ve  raised  kids,  I  am  very  proud  of  my  kids…  even  the  one   who  has  some  problems.  I  am  proud  of  all  of  my  kids.  I  am  the  same  way  with  the  family.  They  have   become  integral  with  Roanoke  Pride  this  year.  Not  every  member  of  the  Black  family,  but  yeah   some  of  them.  And  they  want  to  help  out,  because  that’s  what  we  preach.  You  help  out.  It’s  not   about  just  getting  on  the  stage.  Even  if  you  never  get  back  on  a  stage,  you  still  gotta  help  the   community.  We  just  want  to  give  back.  They  have  the  same  ideology  I  do.  We  know  that  we  have   people  in  this  community  that  are  hurting,  and  I  know  because  my  kids  spend  a  lot  of  time  talking   to  them.  A  lot  more  time  than  me,  I’ll  be  honest.  They  are  much  better  on  the  phone  I  am,  and  text.   Wanting  to  help  your  community  should  be  in  everybody.  I  don’t  care  what  community  it  is.  Of   course  in  this  community  we  rely  on  other  gay  people,  lesbians,  bisexual  people,  transgender   people,  and  allies.  But  everybody  in  every  community  should  want  to  help  benefit  everyone  else  in   some  way,  shape,  or  form.  So,  the  Black  family  came  from  me  deciding  I  wanted  to  start  a  family  and   encouraging  them  to  be  the  best  they  can  be  on  stage,  be  the  best  they  can  be  in  their  real  lives— jobs,  work,  everything—and  be  the  best  they  can  be  for  their  community.  And  those  are  basically   16 �the  pillars.  I  didn’t  want  anybody  coming  into  the  family  who  only  wants  to  go  on  stage  and  that   was  their  life.  “I  was  on  stage  for  5  minutes  and  it  was  everything!”     20:44   [addressing  an  audio  disturbance  ~  7  sec.]     [END  OF  PART  TWO]         Part  Three  (7:32)   0:00   [Getting  back  on  track  ~  20  sec.]     0:20   CL:  So,  your  biological—through  marriage—partnership…  the  four,  kind  of  kind,  children  including   your  niece,  and  then  the  Black  family…  do  they  ever  mesh?  Well,  not  mesh,  but  like  do  they  see  each   other,  exist  in  the  same  room,  in  the  same  realm?     0:40   AB:  Well,  the  Black  family  [laughs]  …  my  daughter  Brooklyn  Black,  that’s  her  stage  name.  Maggie   and  I  raised  her  together.  She  is  my  partner’s  child.  Brianna,  she’s  the  one  that  just  walked  in  from   work,  she’s  a  part  of  the  Black  family.  She’s  Jersey  Black.  She’s  dating  my  17  year  old  son.  My  25   year  old  son  has  yet  to  hit  the  stage.  Victor  Black,  very  close  friend  of  the  family.  Usually  Thursday   nights  we  have  get  togethers.  Grayson  Wild  is  part  of  the  family...    Everybody  comes  on  Thursday   nights  and  we  sit  down..  The  kids  that  I  raised,  for  the  most  part,  are  in  the  Black  family.  We  do  have   other  outside  kids  who  are  in  the  Black  family,  they  come  down  Thursday  nights.  We  practice,  we   work  on  stoning  vests  or  whatever,  sit  down,  talk  about  ideas.  Sometimes  it  turns  into  a  mini-­‐PRISM   meeting,  ya  know,  that  type  of  thing.  Because  they’re  involved.  They  want  to  be  involved.  I  do   require  it…  but  they  just  want  to  be  involved  [Anton  and  Caitlyn  laughing].  I  could  push  them,  they   are  young.  Courtney  is  like  23/24,  so  a  lot  of  times,  these  are  really  young  kids.    And  if  we  show   them  how  to  be  involved  in  their  community,  they  can  take  the  reins  later  after  the  oldies,  like  me,   move  on  into  the  sunset  and  graze  in  the  pastures.  I  do  want  the  youth,  the  gay  youth  in  particular,   to  get  it.  Somebody  did  pave  the  way  for  you,  learn  that  history.  And  make  sure  that  we  don’t  have   to  repeat  it.  Right  now,  some  things  feels  like  we  we  are  repeating  and  that’s  just  because  of  the   political  climate.  The  bar  did  close  at  one  point  and  a  lot  of  us,  in  particular  me,  felt  very  very  out  of   it,  because  there  was  nowhere  for  me  to  go…       3:14   CL:  When  was  this?       3:15     17 �AB:  That  was  2013.  That  was  while  I  was  reigning  as  Mister—M.I.S.T.E.R.,  that’s  for  MI  [male   impersonation].  But  this  year,  I  am  the  first  transgender  Mister—Mr.—Roanoke  Pride.  So,  for  me,   that  was  huge…  and  for  some  trans  men,  that  was  huge  because  that  didn’t  happen  before.  It   actually  made  me  nervous,  so  nervous,  going  into  the  competition  because  I  was  like,  “oh  my  god.   I’m  running  this  as  my  life,”  and  it  was  really  the  first  competition  I  was  able  to  run  as  I  lived.  And  I   did  Ray  Charles  and  I  won,  so  I  was  really  happy  with  that  [laughs].     4:00   CL:  I  think  I  saw  that.  I  remember  seeing  that.  I  was  like,  “what?!  There’s  a  Ray  Charles  on  stage!”     4:05   AB:  Yeah.  It’s  a  lot  of  fun.    As  far  as  being  in  drag,  it’s  a  lot  of  theatre,  but  I  have  a  lot  of  fun  with  it.   Okay.       4:17   CL:  I  guess  this  could  be  our  wrapping  up  question.     4:20     AB:  Okay.     4:21   CL:  I  really  like  the  cheesy  wrapping  up  question,  so  I  guess  what  do  you  hope  to  see  in  terms  of   visibility  [in  terms]  of  queer/trans  people  of  color  in  the  Roanoke,  Virginia  area.  We  were  talking   about  it,  this  is  how  I  know  you.  Me  going  to  The  Park  and  I  was  like,  “wow!”  That  one  brown   person,  or  face,  or  body  that  I  saw  in  the  whole  place  that  one  night  that  I  went.  And  that  stuck  with   me  so  much  that  I  was  like,  “Cool!  So  I  gotta  find  this  person  when  we  do  our  interviews”  or  “I  think   he’s  very  important  to  be  a  part  of  this  project.”  What  do  you  see  happening,  or  hope  to  see   happening,  with  visibility,  whether  that  be  your  own  visibility  or  somebody  else?       5:11   AB:  I’m  not  that  concerned  with  my  visibility  except  that,  in  the  aspect  of  I  hope  people  realize,  “oh!   That  brown  person  hosts  a  show  every  third  week”  and  they  come  out  because  there’s  someone   that  they  can  relate  with,  just  in  that  aspect.  Yes,  I’m  gay  and  yes,  I’m  black.  The  A-­‐List  with  Anton   has  everybody.  The  crowd  is  everybody.  I  want  to  see  more  faces  in  the  crowd  like  mine.  That   would  be  great!  They  don’t  have  to  get  on  stage.  Come  out.  Celebrate  who  you  are.  What  I  want,  as   far  as  visibility,  is  just  people  to  feel  encouraged  to  come  down  to  the  bar,  because  it’s  so  much   more  than  a  bar.  It  is  a  hub  of  activity.  If  we  get  more  lesbians  to  come  out,  if  we  get  more  trans   people  to  come  out,  and  more  people  of  color  to  come  out,  then  we  can  serve  that  full  community.  If   I  don’t  know  people  are  hurting  in  one  area  or  another  or  they  need  help  in  one  area  or  another,  I   can’t  do  a  damn  thing  about  it,  but  if  it’s  brought  to  me,  then  I  can  look  into  it.  So  that’s  the  reason   why  when  you  came  to  me  with  this…  this  concept  is  absolutely  beautiful.  We  don’t  have  a  lot  of   people  of  color  that  are  currently  in  those  positions.  We’ve  had  people  of  color  on  the  stage  before:   Carolyn  Sue  Wilson,  Rosa  Lakes,  Christina  Kelly—who  is  now  big  up  in  D.C.…    We  need  more   18 �representation  across  the  board.  I  fully  believe  that  with  any  group.  Represent  all  of  your  members.   So,  yeah,  come  out  and  be  part  of  the  community.  Help  out.  Join  Roanoke  Pride.  Join  some  group.   That’s  why  I  am  so  glad  that  you  guys  are  doing  what  you’re  doing.  There’s  a  big  community  out   there  that  needs  us,  so  some  of  us  have  to  be  willing  to  step  up  to  the  plate.  Thanks.     7:27   CL:  Cool!  Thank  you!         [END]     19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Anton Black Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Caitlyn Lewis; Kitty Bridgewater Interviewee: Anton Black Date: 22 February 2018 Duration: 66:22 Transcription prepared by: Caitlyn Lewis Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 February 2018 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anton Black, Caitlyn Lewis, Kitty Bridgewater Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All Rights Reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlackAnton Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4441/Kelly_Grace_Miss_[compressed].mp3 5ce3d59181fcf927e6ed7cdb649968cc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4441/Kelly_Grace_Miss.1.pdf b9aae38b3e8db69b38eb524ba09b0c63 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative The QTPOC Project: Representation Matters Interview with Miss Grace Kelly February 24, 2018 Interviewer: Ashleigh Griffin Interviewee: Miss Grace Kelly Date: February 24, 2018 Location: Downtown Roanoke Public Library Meeting Room, Roanoke, VA Transcribed by: Ashleigh Griffin Total: 1:41:40 [0:22] - introduction and family [0:56] - High school in Martinsville,VA; trying out for drum majorette [2:28] – Dolls and gender; childhood [4:02] - Bullying and cub scouts [5:15] - High school prom; moving out of parents’ house; first experience with drag in Martinsville; discovering The Horoscope, a gay dance club in Roanoke [c. 1976?]; meeting a female impersonator [8:39] - Moving to Roanoke [c. 1976-1977]; performing drag at The Trade Winds, a gay bar in Roanoke; running in first drag pageant; performing at The Horoscope; the sex work scene around the City Market building; downtown bars that allowed drag queens as customers [12:57] - The opening of The Park [1978] [13:35] - Murphy’s; The Last Straw; The Trade Winds and the Miss Gay Roanoke Pageant; movement of the pageant to different bars in the late 1970s [15:53] - Miss Roanoke at Large (first runner up 1992 and crowned 1994 Miss Roanoke at Large) [16:24] - Miss Gay Roanoke; issues with younger queens in shows/pageants [18:59] - Performing at the Jefferson Center; how drag has changed over the years; technologies of female impersonation (hips, breasts, etc.); cliques within the drag community [22:12] – Sexuality; first encounter with a woman; bullying and fighting with boys in high school; first relationship with a man; lack of interest in romantic relationships and having children [28:39] - hunting trip with father; bonding with other gay cousins [31:00] - family’s reaction to drag; death of his mother and relationship with father [34:16] - relationship with the church (baptised in 1979); attending a drag queen’s funeral in Martinsville [36:09] - relationships between older queens; the struggle trying to perform drag again at an older age [37:43] – [41:48] - Issues between plus size drag queens and the skinny drag queens 1 �[44:48] - encounters with the police and criminal justice system in Roanoke; the struggles of sex workers on Salem Avenue [48:34] [51:38] - Changes in the gay bar scene in Southwest Virginia and surrounding states [53:10] - experience with the AIDS crisis [54:22] - safer sex and a recent encounter with a damaged condom; ignorance on STD transmission from younger generations; learning about HIV+ diagnosis (1985) [59:59] - stigmas about getting tested for STDs; less than professional or non-effective medical care for HIV [1:02:13] - AIDS benefits and groups to help people with HIV/AIDS; the cruelty and callousness of people against those with an HIV diagnosis [1:06:45] - support groups for people with HIV; dealing with losing friends to HIV/AIDS; effect on the gay and drag community [1:10:36] - female illusionist identification; helping a friend do drag for Halloween; performing at a predominantly Black club in Charlotte, NC; first time running for Miss Roanoke at Large; befriending Neely O’Hara and winning 1994 Miss Roanoke at Large; “the name of the game is respect” [1:20:09] – drug use (or lack thereof) in drag community [1:20:39] - takeaways from doing drag [1:21:44] - diversity in the drag community; cliques and their effect on diversity [1:24:59] - catering to the younger crowd; RuPaul’s Drag Race queens performing; Lady Bunny appearances [1:27:00] - famous queen from Roanoke; disconnect between younger and older generations [1:30:14] - reminiscing with Carolyn Sue Wilson [1:31:43] - flamboyance of the younger gay community (especially during Pride in the Park); issues with Pride being close to churches [1:33:46] - the black church and acceptance [1:35:11] - Meeting and mentoring drag daughter, Kristina; earning vs. paying for titles/awards [1:39:40] - how cliques make it hard for queens to succeed; rude reactions from the public [1:41:08] - getting the word out [on drag history] is important [0:00] AG: This is Ashleigh Griffin with the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project. I am at the Roanoke Public Library on February 24th, 2018 and I am interviewing Miss Grace Kelly. So, if you’d like to start with some background, your age, name, and where you grew up? [0:22] MGK: My name is Michael Kelly. I’m originally from Martinsville [Virginia] but I moved to Roanoke in ‘76 [1976]. [0:32] AG: So, what was your family dynamics like, your parents, did you have any siblings? 2 �[0:36] MGK: Yes. [0:37] AG: How many siblings did you have? [0:40] MGK: I have four brothers and one sister. [0:45] AG: That’s a lot of boys. [0:47] MGK: Yes, one of them died. [0:50] AG: So, what was your early childhood like? You said you were from Martinsville, so what was it like growing up there? [0:56] MGK: It was okay. You know, it had its moments... as in high school. A lot of the boys made fun and plus I hung with a lot of girls; but it was okay, I dealt with things that went on. I used to hang with a bunch of girls, and the boys knew what time it was and they would say little words and things, but it didn’t affect me at all. Then later on, when I got round to about my sophomore year, I was more accepted. I tried out for drum majorette in high school, and it was five people and [laughs] they were laughing because I was the only boy that really came out to try and there was about four girls. Everybody had their turn at twirling and when I came out the door the band was standing there with their instruments and I stepped out the door and they said, “Here she comes,” and I said “Oh my god!” So I went out and twirled, threw the baton up in the air, twirled and then blew the whistle and led the boys out onto the field, the band onto the field. And it was okay, they had lived. But the girls were a tint jade but they got over it. [2:20] AG: So, I don't know what you would define your sexuality as, but is that something you knew from a young age, that you were more feminine? [2:28] MGK: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm. You know how they say in the old days, “mama’s baby and daddy’s maybe.” [laughs] [2:40] AG: So is that something that your family was comfortable with? Did they encourage that or…? [2:46] MGK: They accepted it. My one brother didn’t like it too well. My childhood, you know how it is at Christmas you’re expecting a doll and you get something, a green army truck. You get your face cracked up in the Christmas tree and things like that. So, I think I was round about ten years old or eight and my mom had bought me a G.I. Joe doll and I was very disappointed because I was expecting Barbie. So I took and did the ordinary thing and I took and shaved, got some sandpaper and sanded G.I. Joe’s beard off, and cut one of my mama’s wigs and glued him some hair and took his khakis and turned them into an evening gown. My brother actually played with G.I. Joe and I had him covered up because I didn’t want him to see what I had created; and he pulled the cover back and saw G.I. Joe, and he was not a happy camper, and 3 �we got to knocking. He didn’t try me anymore because I gave him several gorilla knocks [laughs]. [3:58] AG: Is that something you found that you had to deal with more when you were younger, a lot of teasing and stuff? [4:02] MGK: Yeah, a lot of it. I mean, when I tried to be a cub scout… wrong! That was a big disaster. [4:14] AG: You wanted to be a cub scout? [4:16] MGK: Yeah I did, and I was not happy with that. [4:19] AG: Really? [4:20] MGK: Oh, no. [4:21] AG: Was it a difficult...dealing with them? [4:21] MGK: The boys didn’t…[laughs] The boys were not prepared. Well I had another friend who was just in the same boat I was but I had on my school uniform and we picked him up at his house and everybody had their little blue uniforms on and they’re ready to go and follow us behind the wheel wagon. And we waited, and waited, and the child came out and there was too many “hee-ma hee-mas.” He came out and he had a garbage bag on for a dress and tied two pieces of rope to his head for hair and jumped right up in the car with us just like that [laughs]. They were not prepared for that madness. Then as I got older things changed; and then the prom was a big disaster. I should’ve never volunteered to do that one. [5:14] AG: Well, what happened with that? [5:15] MGK: Oh, well the girl used me to get with a another person. So, I went on ahead to impress everybody and I went ahead and took her to the prom and everytime you turned around she was getting up getting punch. And I kept saying, “why is she drinking all this punch?” knowing she was going to the other room to meet a piece of whatever it was. So I said when the fifth cup of punch comes through I’m going to let her have it! So she came back and sat down and I said “did you have enough punch?” and she said “Mm-hmm.” I said “okay.” She said “well we’re going to the after prom party,” and I said “really?” and she said “Yes, we're going.” So I left her standing and left with a guy. And when she got to the prom party we was over there in the corner sitting there having a good time and she walks up to me and starts growling, “Why you do this?” I said, “Well why you kept getting up for punch?” I said “I’m not stupid honey. I didn’t put my head on the green apple truck. I knew what you was up to.” So she didn’t speak to me for a couple of years, but then I didn’t care. We ended up being best friends after all. 4 �I moved out of my parents’ house and moved over to the city and that’s when I really got into, they was talking about “drag” and I kept saying “Drag? Drag what?” and then that night I met some friends and they were dressed like women and I said, “ooh, that’s good.” And I thought “well, I think I’ll try that madness.” I tried it and liked it. Then one weekend we decided to come to Roanoke. So we went to Roanoke to The Horoscope, and I didn’t know about The Horoscope being a gay bar. And I went down there and went in. The music was booming outside and I said “ooh, this is going to be cute.” And I got up in there and I saw terrible amounts of madness. I was truly cracked, my face was cracked like a chinese soup bowl [laughs]. So I went in and it was just amazing, me and Desmond, we came right out on the dance floor, folded my arms, and looked around like this [looks around in disbelief], and I said “Ooh!” So, and then there was this female impersonator doing the show named Wilson, and came out on stage and I thought it was a real woman, and she entertained the crowd and everything and I was amazed at how she performed and everything and I liked what I saw. So the next day… we had stayed in a motel and we went by her house to see her and knocked on her door early that morning and ooh, the illusion had turned into a puff of smoke! She opened the door in butch, and I said “well, where is ‘you know who’ at?” and she said “that’s me right here.” So, I went back to Martinsville, and later on came down one weekend and I’ve been here ever since. [8:21] AG: So you moved here around the [19]70s? [8:24] MGK: Uh huh, I moved here round about ‘77 [1977]. [8:30] AG: So, would you say that that night was the defining night for you? You just knew that that was what you wanted to do? [8:39] MGK: I knew when I saw that me and Desmond and… and I said “I can’t believe this place.” And so I moved here, stayed at a boarding house. There was [counts quietly] eight of us in the boarding house and the woman that took care of us she was an older woman; and she taught us a lot about drag and all that. I live for living here, and I got with Wilson and one night we was going to The Horoscope, and I said “I want to try one of those.” So, I went to another bar called… it was another bar called Trade Winds, and this was when I first got into drag and it was a gay bar and there were straights and gays there. It was nice, you know, everybody was getting along with each other. And I got in drag and I tried it and I liked it so I started doing shows there. Then back to The Horoscope I started getting into shows and stuff and I saw my first drag pageant. And it was amazing and a couple of years later I decided to run for the pageant and it was a big disaster. And I ran and it was okay but the outfit that I had made [for] me, this child told us that she could sew beautiful gowns, which she didn’t know what she was doing. She took pieces of blue satin material, she took and cut it down the sides, sewed and hemmed it at the bottom, put lace up at the top and took a disco shawl and wrapped it around my neck with a big brooch right here and said “swoop!” So I stood out in front of the audience looking like a country bumpkin, blowed up, cracked; and it was okay until it got to talent. I did pretty good and it just got to the point that I just got angry. So when all the contestants came out to line up, while they was lined up I came through there with my suitcase and out the door I went! I started doing shows at The Horoscope and then later on they was talking about The 5 �Market. I said, “The market?” So I went down to The Market and there were cars that were there and there were drag queens on every corner and I was like “What kind of madness is this?” and this is where everybody was prostituting. We don’t call it that, we call it selling after hours produce [laughter]. So I got into that for years and they had a lot of redneck bars and things downtown, a lot of people didn't like us because of the way we were. Some people accepted us for what we were. They had a restaurant called Billy’s Ritz and we used to stand right across the street from there and the people would come there for dinner and it stayed packed and we wondered why and they was coming down to see us stand there and carry on. Several years that went on, and then they had a lot of places. It was New Market; The Manhattan was redneck, we finally… somehow, we knew the woman who owned it and they started accepting us in those kinds of places. There was The New Market, The Manhattan, The Capital, and there was Tony’s, Miss Tony’s. They accepted us pretty well, everybody got along and things. And then still performing at The Horoscope, and then I turned around and when The Horoscope closed down there was The Park. And, ugh… they didn't care for us when we started going there. The guys didn’t like the drag queens, and then we started fighting every time we’d go up in there so they started giving us our respect and we started doing shows there. [12:54] AG: So do you remember around when The Horoscope closed? [12:57] MGK: The Horoscope closed in ’77 [1977]. The Park opened up in ’77 [1977].1 [13:02] AG: So you found a lot of difficulties when The Park first opened? [13:07] MGK: At first, I guess they weren’t prepared, but you know it was some people that was accepting and some that wasn't, you know. And like I said they would say little nasty comments and then you gotta reach out and touch in a rough way and we gained our respect. We started doing shows there and it was okay. [13:26] AG: Did that surprise you in any way, since you had performed at The Horoscope and everything. Did it surprise you that The Park opened and was not as accepting when it first opened? [MGK addition to transcript: It was not that The Park was not accepting; it was some of the gay people that were there.] [13:35] MGK: I wasn’t surprised. I knew that, you know, some places didn’t like drag queens. [Material removed from transcript at MGK’s request.] And then The Last Straw was another gay bar, but it was totally butch. You couldn’t go in drag, and then at The Park it was okay. Back then before I came here there was the Trade Winds, they started the Miss Gay Roanoke Pageant, and that's when it was Carolyn Sue Wilson, Lee Cruise, Roger Hartberger, and some more; and they started a gay pageant, and back then they had crowned Laura Hart, which was the first Miss Gay Roanoke. Then from there they moved it to The Horoscope, and that’s when Carolyn Sue Wilson was crowned Miss Gay Roanoke in... I think she was crowned in ’75 [1975] 1 Documentary evidence shows that The Horoscope actually closed sometime in 1978. The Park opened in December 1978. 6 �if I’m not mistaken. Then later on there was another queen, her name was Stephanie Grant, she was crowned Miss Gay Roanoke there. Then later on there was another one crowned Miss Gay Roanoke there, Jennifer Jones. Then they moved up to The Park, they started up there in, oh, when Stephanie Grant was giving up her title. [15:49] AG: Did you ever participate in Miss Gay Roanoke or…? [15:53] MGK: I’m a former Miss Roanoke At Large. We have our own big girl pageant. I ran for Miss Roanoke At Large in 1992, my first time running, and ’93 [1993] I didn’t run so I sat out a year, so I was Miss Roanoke at Large ’94 [1994]. It was okay, you know still today we have our big girl pageants here in Roanoke. [16:16] AG: Did you have that pageant because you didn’t feel as accepted in the other one or was it just easier? [16:24] Well, once we got to The Park and everything went okay we decided since they were having Miss Gay Roanoke we decided to get together and have our own big girl pageant; and back then it was fun. [MGK addition to transcript: Me and (some others) wanted to have a Miss Roanoke at Large pageant.] Back then in the old days girls pulled together and they weren’t in their little cliques, but these days the younger children they made it into a competition. Back in our days we didn’t do that, everybody pulled together and they had fun getting in drag, they helped each other. But they have some snobbish people honey, the younger ones are very disrespectful to the older girls, and sometimes you have to put them in their place. Because I had read one so bad she started crying, because she had came for me. She says “Oh, you’re the fat, black, mean one.” I said “Excuse you,” I said, “Come here and let me give you some education honey.” I said “I paved the way for you to have your you-know-what in here. As you must understand…” … You can't cuss in here can you? [momentary pause while AG confers with assistant] [17:29] AG: It’s up to you. 17:29 MGK: Okay, well I sat down and told them the whole gay history about this madness. I told them, I said something like this, “I paved the way for you to bring your monkey-fied ass in here. I was doing drag when you was in your daddy’s [whispers] nutsack. So don’t come for me.” So, the child went out there and cried and everybody was asking her what happened they said that she got nasty with Miss Grace and she put her in her place. But you know, it’s a shame at how things done changed over the years because acceptance for us older queens, like at The Park up here now, there’s no acceptance to the older queens. The young queens came and they done took over, and they’re rude, and we don’t perform there no more. It’s awful the way things are; they have two sets of Miss Gay Roanoke. The original, that Tim Clark owns, at The Park when it first opened, that still goes on, they have that at the Jefferson Center. Then the girl that runs the show at The Park she has her Miss Gay Roanoke, but it’s the newer kind of Miss 7 �Gay Roanoke, so they have that at The Park. We don’t go there. We just go to the Jefferson Center where Tim Clark sets everything up for us to come in and do what we gotta do. [18:48] AG: So, do y’all not perform anymore or is there somewhere else that y’all do your drag shows at? [18:59] MGK: Well every once in a while Tim Clark will rent the Jefferson Center for the girls to come in and entertain. They just recently had one, it was January the 27th. It was a big turnout, it was 300 people there but I didn’t get to perform because I had problems with my sister and her diabetes so I didn’t show. So, in June they’re getting ready to have another big bash at the Jefferson Center, so I’m going to go ahead, come out, and entertain that. See I do big girl stuff because there’s no need to be up there doing a small song when you’re built like a mountain. Then you got some girls that just coming out, and you try to help them, them little young little girls. You try to carve that pumpkin and it just doesn't work. If you a basement beast, you a basement beast. So, it’s like that, and some of them don’t like to be told how to do this and stuff. A lot of us back in the day, we know about hip pads, used to give you that coke [figure], a lot of girls don’t understand that either. And plus they don’t understand about the milk factory situation either. A lot of girls back in the day we would take and get surgical gloves, and you tie the fingers in a knot, turn the glove wrong side out, and you fill it up with lotion, then you tie it up with a rubber band. And then back in the old days, back then, you know they move and, you know, and back in the old days the girls used to take the pantyhose and tie it in a knot and fill it up with birdseed [laughs]. [20:37] AG: So I know you said drag has changed over the years, what's the biggest change you’ve seen? Is it just the the personalities between the older queens and the younger queens? [20:49] MGK: Yeah, the personalities, I mean, the older girls have always been respectful to the young ones but the young ones they’re not like us at all. They don’t give you respect. So, I decided—I have performed in different states, I’ve been to Florida, North Carolina, I’ve been to Savannah, Georgia, back in the day in ’94 [1994] when I was miss Roanoke at Large I traveled a lot and entertained a lot—but just that Roanoke has changed because of all the different cliques. If you don’t belong in this clique, you ain’t this and that, and it’s one big mess and they’re always talking about “gay pride.” I don’t go to gay pride [Roanoke’s Pride in the Park festival] because it’s, to me, I know about the gayness about gay pride but to me, it’s one day of everybody being phony. You’ve got people you ain’t seen in twenty years knowing they gon’ be two-facing when you met them years ago and they ain’t gon’ change a bit! And you go, “well how you doing girl, you sure do look good.” “Mm-hmm, tell that to somebody else who cares!” because you know they lying through their teeth. How I’m going to look good and I’m weighing about 300-something pounds, child please. [22:04] AG: So how would you say that you define your sexuality? Would you lean more towards straight or gay or more like fluid? 8 �[22:12] MGK: Well to me I’m just a big ole female impersonator and I’m more gay. I have been in the situation where the female thing, you know that madness, and I didn’t like that at all. I had girls approach me when I was in school that wanted to cut up and throw down and I was not all about that. One girl was talking about “I can change you, you just let me go to bed with you” and got in my face. So she tricked me. Her parents weren’t home and I decided to… she called me up to her house and when I got there she was naked. I go in the bedroom and she’s standing there naked and she comes to approach me and I said “Don’t com there. Uh-uh. This parade is not gonna march.” So she kept coming, so I balled up my fist and punched her in the bread basket and ran [laughs]. Because you know, I had never heard of that madness with what they call it, the clitoris or whatever, I wasn't about that. And back then in high school the boys, I’ll never forget when I was in the ninth grade and, you know, they boys knew you were gay and you had to have P.E. [physical education class] and you had to go out in the field and play baseball and that was a big disaster. They put me over in the center field, the boy knocked up a pop up, had my glove on but instead of throwing the glove like this [demonstrates how to catch a ball] I held it up like this [demonstrates how not to hold a glove] and the ball came down through the glove and hit me in the face. So I took the glove, threw it down, and blowed up and walked back in the locker room. But back then there was so much wildness going on. The boys used to pick, they used to pick. I know one boy, he didn't like me and I didn’t like him, I think I was in the 11th grade. This boy had called and told him in homeroom that I called him something, which I didn’t. So I come in, you know how back then everyone held their books up to their chest and switching and I came in and he knocked me back out the room, across the hall, and I fell and my lunch and everything went everywhere and he was a bully. So I said “okay you wanna play this, we gon’ play it good.” So, I came out and there was a bunch of steps, when the bell rung I was at the top of the steps with my arms folded so the boys said “get him,” and he said “I’m going to get this faggot.” So he came at the top of the steps and I met him halfway and honey we battled back and I picked him up and threw him down the steps and before he even got to the bottom of the steps I was on him. I beat him like a sunday B-I-T-C-H [spelled out] on a monday morning and back then when you let them you know you didn’t take no mess they wouldn’t bother you no more. So you had to do what you had to do. And then the relationships. I learned at an early age… ugh, I got my feelings hurt when I was twenty years old and I haven't had a relationship since. I thought he loved me but he didn’t and we broke up and he hurt me real bad. We got to fighting in The Park and the same person that got us together, the same one broke us up. So I came up in The Park one night and I told him I was going home and I guess he thought since I was in Martinsville he was gon’ cut up. So I didn’t go home; I got a phone call from a friend from the bar and they told me to come down, they were together. Went up in The Park and there they was, he had her lipstick on his cheek and I walked up to him and I said “what’s going on?” and she gon’ turn around to me and laugh. “Oh you think this funny, I’ll show you funny.” We got to knocking. I picked her up and threw her behind the bar and while we was fighting he decided to sneak out, the girls had him in a circle and then when I got through with her I went out there and was ready to remodel him and I said “I was good to you, and I loved you and you’re going to play with my feelings like this.” We got 9 �to knocking and I beat him down, of course, and I asked him, “who you gonna’ leave tonight with, me or her?” He pulled off with her in front of The Park building and I was truly crushed, and cracked, and embarrassed, and humiliated. But, that was something else. [27:05] AG: So you had no relationships after that? That was just it for you? [27:08] MGK: Ohhh no honey I had a few that wanted to but I could not be bothered. Not getting bit by the same dog twice. I learned that at an early age. No ma’am, I would not jump up that trail again. [27:28] AG: So, would you ever consider maybe a few years from now maybe going into relationships again or is it just not even an option? [27:28] MGK: Never. Not even an option honey. [27:48] AG: So did you ever think about having children? [27:50] MGK: Oh no. My grandmother embarrassed me at our family reunion. I was so embarrassed, I could have crawled up underground and thrown extra grass on top of me. We had our reunion, my grandmother comes up, now I have four other brothers, and she gon’ come up in front of all these people, especially the ones that knew I was gay and she hasn’t seen me in many, many moons. So she comes up and she says, “Oh you a big boy now, you gon’ have me a whole batch of grandbabies,” and I lost it. I was very evil. My mama said go outside and cool off. I was really embarrassed because they were whooping and laughing. I said “Oh no.” [28:34] AG: So did most of your family not know that you were gay or was that just not talked about? [28:39] MGK: They knew, my father didn't have no understanding. You know, it’s always the mother accepts it better than the father because you know, my father knew. He was putting stuff up to,me to try to make me tough, it didn't work. Like I have never went hunting and this man come knocking on the door and told my mother he wanted to take me hunting and I said “take me hunting?” Rabbit hunting. So I got in the truck, got in this big field rabbits jumping all over the field. Here I am a gay dandelion, and he gave me the rifle and he said “shoot the rabbit!” and oh my god that was a disaster. I told him I couldn't kill the rabbit because it looked like Bugs Bunny [laughs]. So he brought me back and told my daddy there was something wrong. But my daddy was something else, he knew but he accepted it. [Material removed from transcript at MGK’s request.] And plus my daddy’s nephew was gay. He had a lot of gay people on his side and so did my mother but he always threw it up in your face about my mother's side being gay but he never did mention his. And his nieces and nephews, they were a trip. [30:10] AG: So was that something you ever talked about with your cousins that were gay? Did you all sort of bond together over that? 10 �[30:17] MGK: Oh we bonded real close. I mean every time I would go to their hometown we would get together. All the girls would get up under the tree and start gossiping. My aunt was very accepting and my aunt had a gay son and this woman was talking about him to her, didn’t know it was his mama, and they got to knocking. [MGK edit to transcript: They got into a terrible and nasty argument.] [30:49] AG: Very protective family then. [30:52] MGK: Oh yes. [30:55] AG: So did your family know that you were doing drag when you started to do drag? Did you tell them about it? [31:00] MGK: Mmm. I sneaked and did it. The only time I really liked it was you know back in the day was Halloween was the only time you got to do it, and my brother went asked me always every Halloween why I had to dress up like a pumpkin and we got to fighting. He didn’t ask me no more. But, my family accepted me well. My father, finally, he didn’t know how to come up. No, he wanted to come and talk to you about the situation but he always said something weird and I’d get annoyed. And when he saw me in drag for the first time he didn’t know who I was. He was in a store and I went past him down the sidewalk and I was in drag in broad daylight and he did not even have a clue. Then when my momma first saw me, oh she was shocked. I decided to go ahead and come out right then and there and it was a disaster; but I painted the grapes and went on with my life. [32:10] AG: So, now that you’re older does your family now know that you do drag? [32:15] MGK: My mother accepted me well. I mean, before she died she knew I was a drag queen and she knew I performed a lot. I even showed her video tapes and everything, and she was proud. I mean, when she was on her deathbed she had my drag pictures right in her room, where all her friends could see it and everything, and she told me she was proud of me, that I should keep doing what I was doing, if I liked it go ahead and do it. So, you know my mother said that to me. Well my father, he had to accept it at the end, and ugh my mama passed and I was here in Roanoke and they called and told me that she was not doing well so I moved back to Martinsville in 2004 and she passed, and after she passed my brother, the oldest brother, he was a trip. After the funeral and everything was over with, a week later me and my sister were sitting in the house, my daddy told us to come outside he wanted to talk to us and he told us we had to vacate the premises. We didn’t have nowhere to go. Luckily a friend had a house for rent, and we moved over in town, and I hated my father and I still hate him today because he had another woman on the side, which was very disrespectful. She would come up to the house when my mama was on her deathbed, but he called himself a Christian. We don’t have much to do with the other family members. I don’t have nothing to do with my brothers, nothing. I haven’t been home. My mama died in 2004 and I haven’t been home since. 11 �[34:08] AG: So you say your dad said that he was a Christian, did you grow up in a Christian church household? [34:16] MGK: Yes, I was a Baptist. I took and got baptised on May 10, in ‘77, no ’79 [1979]. I sung in the church choir and all that and I just went ahead and did what I had to do, went on somewhere else and lived. [34:38] AG: Did you ever have any difficulties with the church and the drag side of you clashing in any way? [34:49] MGK: Well the church knew, but you know back then a lot of people they didn't speak on it. I had a friend that moved here from Martinsville, she was a real close friend, she passed so we had to come to Martinsville to her funeral and her mother was very accepting because her mother knew she was doing drag and they was real close. So half of us went to the funeral in drag and half of us went as boys. So we went all of us and we stepped in there and it was seven girls in drag and seven of us in butch and we went to her memorial service. They had a great huge portrait of her in drag on the obituary, on her obituary she was in full flaming drag, her name was Michael “Missy” Martin, and we started coming up in there and everybody’s mouth flew wide open and the preacher he was real nice, he got up and he said “you cannot judge.” So after the memorial service was over the queen’s mother told us to come over to the house and everything, so, we went and we all had a nice time. [36:02] AG: So would you say that the drag queens almost formed their own little, the older drag queens, formed their own little family here in Roanoke? [36:09] MGK: Well most of us don’t, you know we stay in touch but as far as visiting, back in the day we used to visit people. You know, everybody would go to everybody’s houses. We don’t do that no more. We talk on the phone, like I talked to a few before I was going visiting. I don’t visit, I don’t go to gay functions, no. I don’t know. I haven’t done drag since, I did drag two years ago [2016] and I have been out of circulation since 2004 and it was not cute because drag constantly changes. When you haven’t done it in a long time and you try to get back into it, it doesn’t work because I had got into it and the makeup was horrible, the hair was horrible, I haven’t worn my shoes in many years, so trying to squeeze an elephant into a mouse hole. Because when you’re uncomfortable and you’ve got on heels you uncomfortable all over. So I came out and I did Jennifer Holliday and everything was cute and then got on stage and my feet started hurting. Honey, when your feet start hurting you get uncomfortable, so, I mean it was real painful and I’m saying the tears flowing and they thought that I was into the song but I was in pain so when I came off the stage I said, “Uh uh, this is enough,” and they said “well, why?” I said, “Because my feet was hurting,” and then I didn’t go on for the second half. I told them, I’m through with this situation. No, no, no. [37:37] AG: So have you noticed a big change in the way that drag makeup and drag dress has been over the years? 12 �[37:43] [Material removed from transcript at MGK’s request.] [41:17] AG: So what would you say that your gimmick or your shows were based on? [41:22] MGK: Well mostly I does music that matchs my build. I do Aretha Franklin, Jennifer Holliday. I does something that’s going to match my build because there ain't no reason to go out there looking like a bear and trying to be a tweety bird. That don’t work. [41:40] AG: So have you found that the way that younger drag queens perform now is vastly different from the way older drag queens perform? [41:48] MGK: Good lord, they be doing acrobats and stuff on stage, flipping like monkeys. I mean it constantly changes, but some girls I guess they think it’s funny but I think it’s embarrassing. I remember one queen that came out and was doing a slow number and she took her breasts, her rubber breasts, out and touched up her face with it. I have a daughter, her name is Christina Kelly, and she came out on stage and she’s a big girl, too. She was up there doing her number so this person decided to embarrass her on stage. She’s up there doing her slow number and guess what they tipped her with? A loaf of bread and a pack of bologna. And you know what she did? Grabbed a chair up on stage and made sandwiches and at the end of her number she plucked them right back [laughs]. And then it was one queen, her name was Jon Snow, she was a big girl and this skinny queen did not like her because she was big; and she was up there doing her number and the queen had tipped her with a can of Slim Fast on stage. And she said, “Miss Grace, you know, you can’t be nice to nobody,” I said, “Do what you have to do.” So, after the show was over she took the Slim Fast, went and tapped the child on the shoulder, and poured it on her head. And she says, “I’m not through with that yet.” She said, “that B-I-T-C-H [spelled out] worked me. I’m going to get her.” So guess what she did? She made up with the queen, ended up being her best friend. This queen has been doing drag for many, many years. Has built up her whole costumes, flawless. So they decided to be real best friends. So the queen moved her in with her and one day the queen had to go to work and she told the queen she was sick. So the queen took and went to work, she took every stitch of drag, and I mean it was real expensive drag, put it in garbage bags and set it on the corner for the garbage man to pick up [laughs]. [44:00] AG: So it was a long term… [44:03] MGK: Oh, back in the day… I mean you’d be shocked at just how vicious people can be. Oh yes honey, I remember one queen came out and the queen didn’t like her and she put vaseline on her shoes. And miss thing loved to dance fast and that night she went into a spin and went flying through the air and when she landed it was not a cute situation. People can be extra, extra shady. [44:38] AG: I’m trying to phrase this in the right way. So with the shadiness and getting back at each other did you ever have issues with the police in Roanoke in downtown or anything? 13 �[44:48] MGK: Many issues with them. Yes, me and this queen had got to fighting and I went to jail. And then one night I was on the corner of Salem Avenue, it [there] was snow… real, real deep. This queen rode by and called me an abominable snow beast, and we were living together and she called me that in the snow! So she was strung out on crack and I said “I know exactly how I’m gon’ get her,” and I got her good, too. She was in her room doing crack and I said, the door was cracked, and I said “I’m gon’ wait until she’s down to her last piece of crack,” and when she went to go outside I blew in the door and whooped her you-know-what. So, we had to go downtown in front of the judge, he was the only black judge that they had in Roanoke, and we go to court. It was embarrassing. The judge asked me what happened and I told him, and he said, “Mr. Kelly, what did you say?” I said, “I was on Salem Avenue in the snow and she rolled by and called me an abominable snow beast,” and the people in the courtroom laid in the floor whooping and laughing. So she decided to come to court in drag, she [was] trying to impress. He says, “Where is Mr. P----?” I said, “It's out there in the hall.” So she comes up in drag and he says, “Mr. P----, why are you looking like this?” He says, “You don't come in my courtroom looking like this.” I said, “Oh, she’s 100% real.” So she says something and he says, “Look at Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly is a big man.” He said, “Mr. Kelly could’ve did some serious damage to you.” He said, “Mr. Kelly I got a question to ask you, do you play football?” and I said, “I have,” and he says, “Mr. Kelly could’ve really hurt you,” and the case was dismissed. Because back in the day you know you're always gonna have people that run by and throw stuff at you and pick at you and sometimes you just get tired. So one night I was out on Salem Avenue and a bunch of redneck boys rolled by and you know how you can have a can of beer with it not being open, they threw it and they hit me in the back with it and they called me a faggot. So I did what I had to do. They came up and came back around. Well, when they came back around there was a car in front of them and a car behind them, so they couldn’t go nowhere. So I go behind the building and I got a big huge cinder block and honey, I came around that corner and stepped out with that cinder block, threw it over my head. I had threw it so hard that the windshield fell in their lap and I had to go to court for that, too. The judge asked me, he said “what happened?” and I told him what happened and he said, “Well Mr. Kelly you had to protect yourself.” He said, “they was wrong for doing that to you, they didn’t know you, they had no business doing it,” and he said, “I’m sure they learned a good lesson after that.” I mean, the younger crowd came in and they’re rude and they’re nasty and they done got to the point now where they don’t want no acceptance into the older drag queens. Which is a big mess. We got one queen that performs every friday night at The Park; she’s ten times bigger than me and she thinks she’s a star. So, I had to put her in her place. I said, “you sitting up here thinking you grand, you’re not all that honey,” I said, “that's why we call you Cowzilla” [laughs]. [48:33] AG: So, a lot of the younger drag queens they do a lot of their own music now, is that something that the older drag queens did or is that more of a new age thing? [48:34] [Material removed from transcript at MGK’s request.] [51:34] AG: So do you think that Roanoke has really changed since you first moved here? 14 �[51:38] MGK: It has really, really changed. I mean, back then when drag was fun but the younger generation has come in and they just took it to a whole different kind of level and it’s not fun anymore. It’s a mess. Go to The Park some nights and you’ll be shocked what you see. [52:05] AG: Is it surprising to you that there are not as many gay bars in downtown Roanoke? [52:12] MGK: Yes, I mean, I guess it changes over the years. I mean we have one bar that was in Bluefield, West Virginia that has been open for forty-some years and they closed about ten years ago, The Shamrock. We used to go to a club in Greensboro called Warehouse, it has been open for I think 34 or 43 years, it closed down. Places that you really felt comfortable doing shows and stuff, and everything changes. It really does. But we do need another bar. [52:57] AG: I know you said you moved here in ‘77? So did you ever have any experience knowing anyone during the AIDS crisis around then, any friends or anything that were affected by that? [53:10] MGK: Yes, I had a friend that passed. One of the first, well not the first, gay person that passed, but the first gay person that passed that I knew and he was real nice. He treated you well and he was very accepting and everybody was close to him, went to his funeral and everything. The AIDS benefits has changed over the years; everybody wants to be a star. I mean, you’re there for a cause but don’t turn it into a sideshow or a circus, that’s not the point of stuff. You would never see none of the old girls come in and perform at the AIDS benefits because they don’t want them there. You got the younger crowd that comes in and they’re doing monkey flips and it's just a big mess. I think my last AIDS benefit at The Park was in [19]94. [54:08] AG: Do you think that crisis, the outbreak here in Roanoke, sort of change the way that the drag scene and the gay scene was? Did it make it a little more closed in, wanting to be safer? [54:22] MGK: Well you can, you know, I talk to a lot of people about being safe, I mean because these days you never know what you're getting into. I was with a person last year, two years ago, and it was something strange about the situation and I picked up on it and thank God I did. What it was, we had went out and come time to do what you had to do, he was insistant that I use his condom and I kept wondering why he kept insisting, and I said “well, I have some right over here,” and he said “no, just use this one.” So when he went to take his clothes off, and when he went to turn, I took and switched condoms on him, thank God I did, because he had punched five holes in it through the package. He sure had, and after he left I took and tore it off and went in there and ran the water in it and it had five holes in it, because when you unwrap a condom and when it's in the package the tip is right in the middle and the only thing you got to do is punch that a couple of times and… ugh. That’s why I told the girl, if you’re going out on a date with somebody you use your own condoms. There’s some people that’s extra, extra ignorant when it comes to safetyness and stuff. I got one friend, I sat and I talked to them for two hours, I told them, “Honey, it's not fun 15 �like you think it is. It’s a dangerous world out there. You have to be on your j-o-b twenty four seven, on alert about what’s going on.” Talked to them for two whole hours [emphasizes the point by emphatically tapping the table], she gon’ try to educate me! You know what she told me to my face? “Well I ain’t gotta worry about that because that AIDS stuff is in y’all’s generation.” That’s exactly what she said out of her face, and she said “Fine, but my boyfriend has a low sperm count.” She thought she couldn’t get it because he had a low sperm count and she was barebacking him and about a month later she came to me and sat down and told me she said, “Miss Grace, I don’t understand why I did that.” See a lot of young people don’t like to listen to the old crowd of people. I don’t understand that. An older person can tell you things you need to know, a young person can’t tell you nothing because they just out there. You know, you talk about the people about safety and it goes in one ear and comes out the other one. I have one friend, her T-count was zero, and I told her, let me tell you this, one of the doctors— I’m not going to say which one—told her something and her T-cell count was zero. I got with her, took her to my doctor and she got back on the meds and hon’, her T-cell count was almost undetectable. You know, I’ll sit down and talk to people about it because in some cases a person that’s HIV [positive] cannot talk to a stranger about it becuase they don’t know what’s up but they can talk more comfortable to a person that's in the same situation. They’re more at ease with it, they can talk, but a lot of people they just don’t listen. I like being safe. But in the younger years you didn't know, back in the ‘70s there was no such thing, so a lot of people didn’t use condoms back in them days. I have been HIV [positive] since [19]85, and I do my meds, I stay up on my meds and everything, and i'm down to non-detectable, because I listen. Because when they first told me at the health department I had prepared myself. I think if I hadn’t prepared myself I think it would’ve been a disaster for me, but I had prepared myself for years in advance and when I went in and checked, me and this friend of mine went in the health department at the same time. She went in one room, I went in the other one. When they told her I heard her hit the floor, I heard her scream and holler, but when they told me, when they talked to me, they said “Michael, we hate to tell you this,” it didn’t phase me. I knew what I had to do. So what I took and did was I got material on it and I studied this and studied that and I got a friend that helped me get situated and get my HIV doctor. But, you know, it's shocking because really I did not know what it was. I was having night sweats and my whole bed would be soaked and I didn’t understand why, but when they told me I got my literature on it, I got this friend of mine, she taught me a lot about it and thank God that she did because I had to do what I had to do. A lot of people didn't, a lot of people think it was embarrassing to go to the health department and all this, to me it wasn’t. That was my life. You don’t play with your life. So I went, and I’m glad I did. That’s why I’m here today. [59:50] AG: Do you think that’s still a problem today, is that fear of embarrassment sort of preventing people from going? [59:59] MGK: Mhmm, yeah. Like I said, some people they’ll come in and I’ll educate them on things they should know. Go get tested, do what you have to do, go get tested, and once you get the test get into the literature and read about it, and then go find you a specialist that’s a doctor that’s good for that. They have a few doctors here that are not, how can I put this? 16 �They’re not helpful at all. They’re supposed to be helpful for you but they’re not. I had one doctor, I had went in her office and I came and I sat down and she was very snobbish. When I first met her she had a nasty attitude, and I told her, I said, “Look, I don’t like your attitude.” “Do you know how you got it [HIV]?” Before I could answer, “You probably don’t know.” Excuse me, I think you’re very rude and very ugly. Let me get you straight right here. I don’t need that. There's other people that will help me. I had one doctor, I can’t say the name, that gave me wrong medication. Took me off of my medicine for almost a year and then I knew something wasn’t right so I got me this other doctor. The other doctor educated me well about it, she took me and got on the computer, she looked at the meds I was taking and all of them had red dots beside them, and she said, “Do you know what these red dots are Michael?” I said “no.” “These red dots are indicating your medicine is not doing nothing for you.” I got with her and everything's nice and that’s why I’m non-detectable. This woman had me on medicine that I didn’t even need, but yet you in there practicing in your field and you’re not doing it right. [1:01:57] AG: Do you think that, I mean I know back in the ‘70s and ‘80s there wasn’t a lot of awareness about AIDS and HIV and stuff like that. Do you think that that’s still a problem now, that there’s not enough information being talked about? The community’s not really pushing like: this is a problem, this is something you need to be aware of? [1:02:13] MGK: To some extent yes. But a lot of people still don’t take it seriously because they’re on this kick about “it can't happen to me,” but until you end up in that person's shoes you learn. I used to support AIDS benefits, but… I figure like this, if you’re doing an AIDS benefit and the people are there to collect the money for that, I think it’s wrong if you go ahead and collect the money. Give them the check in their hand on stage so you know where it's going because you don’t know where it's going to. I mean, you’re going out of your way to do the AIDS benefit and then when it comes to the end of the night with the money, the persons are there. Why don’t you give them the money right then and there in front of people? They didn’t. [Material removed from transcript at MGK’s request.] People just, I don’t understand them, because you get with people like I have been with, I’ve seen a lot of friends of mine pass. I have been by their side. I have been there for their support, but other friends that claim they're so close to them. I had a friend, now let me tell you how vicious people can be. I had a friend that knew that I was sick, she came in here from California and I was out on the corner sitting down with a friend, we just come out of the club and we was sitting there talking. She walks to me, you know what she said to me to my face? She said, “girl I heard you had the virus, girl. Well it’s like this girl, may I sing at your funeral?” Right out of the blue and you know what I told her, “you may sing at mine but don’t let me yodel at yours first.” I mean she was that kind of rude. I had a friend that was gay, that was sick, and you could see that, she would kick that person, pick them up, and take them to different people's houses and go in the other room and make fun of them. That’s how bad people can be. That child came to me crying. I said, “that's alright,” and I told her, “you have your fun now, but I bet I outlive you and I bet I’ll be walking behind you.” See, we have gay families like we have gay sons, gay daughters. Like my gay son had passed away. she comes to stay and comes to the funeral, they were doing his funeral and each person was supposed to get up and say a reflection on the 17 �person that had passed. She gets up there and makes it all about herself. Oh she come in with this big dashiki on and little African cap and she, “I was HIV [positive] and God did this,” and a couple weeks later she passed. You can’t do stuff like that. I mean people can be very, very, very vicious. I have been in the situation where I have been around friends I been knowing my whole life since I been here and as soon as they found out I was sick they could not be bothered. I mean, that hurts. But, you know, I’m a strong person because like I said I’m doing fine, what about them? Some of them ain’t even here. But it’s just, ugh, it’s just amazing how vicious and nasty people can be, and I learned that doing my many years about AIDS and all that and people can be very nasty. It’s just a mess. [1:06:45] AG: Were there any groups that, other than the one you mentioned before, were there any groups that were helping people with AIDS and HIV and spreading that awareness? Were you in any of those groups? [1:06:58] MGK: Oh, yes. I was in some of the groups. Okay, they had Council of Community Service; they had another group that they would come and pick you up and everybody would go to and have the meeting. It was one thing I didn’t like about it, they would pick you up in this van, there were people that come there that was not HIV [positive]. They just came to see who had it and go back and repeat [report] it. That should have never happened. [1:07:30] AG: So was it almost in a way somewhat like Alcoholics Anonymous, where you’re not supposed to say names and things, it’s more of a… [1:07:39] MGK: Yeah, it was a private thing, and then you had people there that would sit there in secret and go out in the street and spread what you had. Like I had a friend one night, I knew she was acting strange towards me and I said, “Why you acting strange?” She said, “well I heard something.” “Well, what did you hear?” “Well, I heard that you was sick.” “Okay, yes I am.” I sat down and I told them about it and I said [MGK edit to transcript: I said that they should go to get checked.] Never did, and one said they didn’t want to know, and them the ones that have passed on. It's just something else. I mean, I have a lot of close friends that have went on before me and I mean a lot, because everytime you’d turn around you was going to funerals and one child just came out of the blue and asked me, “Miss Grace, you go to all these friends’ funerals that died of AIDS and stuff, how do you feel?” I said, “What do you mean how do I feel?” She says, “How do you feel about going to funerals thinking you know, one of these days that’s going to be you?” I said, “I’m a strong person. Because when I go up to visit, to view that person's body, I reverse it on myself because I knew one of these days my day gon’ come. I’m prepared for all of that. It makes me stronger, it does not make me weak. It makes me stronger.” [1:09:24] AG: Do you think that during that time the amount of people that were being lost, do you think that really shook the gay community, the drag community, did it make them grow closer at all? Or did the stigma almost make them come apart? [1:09:41] MGK: Well, the older crowd got close together. When we started doing AIDS benefits at The Park we was there for support, we did our drag numbers and everything was fine. 18 �Everybody pulled together, I mean, but this younger generation they have no respect because it can't happen to them. [1:10:04] AG: Do you think that that stigma of ‘you have the virus’ and things like that, do you think that that’s still true today, or is it less today? That almost-like fear that if you touch someone’s hand you’re going to catch the virus mindset that used to be around. [1:10:24] MGK: Oh, you’re always going to have people like that. It’s always ignorance. Some people are just downright rude. [1:10:36] AG: So I know with a lot of times, with drag, I know you said that your friends were men and when you were first introduced they were men who were dressed as women, and you were sort of like, oh, what is this? Would you say that the majority of the people you knew identified as gay men who just dressed as women, or was it more they identified as transvestites or transgender? [1:11:01] MGK: Yeah, transvestites. [1:11:02] AG: So what would you say that you identified as? [1:11:05] MGK: I identify myself as a female illusionist. [1:11:12] AG: So do you feel like today there’s a lot of almost controversy with the way that drag is, the distinction between men who dress as women, and then men who want to be women? [1:11:24] MGK: You got a lot friends that were… you see we call ourselves “drag queens” and we call the butch boys “bunnies,” and a lot of boys wanted to try but never did. I had one friend that, we’d been close for many, many years, and he always wanted to do it but he just didn’t act on it, so one Halloween night he says “I need you to do something for me,” and I said, “what is that?” He said, “we gotta go shopping,” so we went and got all of the drag stuff, beat his face, and he looked lovely. I mean, he was shocked at the way he looked in drag and he was just happy as hell. Happy as a pumpkin boy’s town as they say in the old days. And he liked it, and he does support drag real well. I mean every show that I have he was there and he liked it a lot but it was just on a Halloween thing, but I think he wanted to explore it more but his pride wouldn’t let him. You’ve got a lot of people that want to [but] they can’t, just like you know you’re always going to have people criticize you when you in drag. Okay, I was in Charlotte, North Carolina, a club called Mythos. I was not told that it was all black. I didn’t know it was almost all black until I got there and I said “this is not going to be cute.” So me, I decided to change up a little. I made a big ruffle coat, great big huge ruffle coat, made the gown to match, and I had ordered a Diana Ross lioness wig. And the child said “are you good?” and I said, “Of course, I might not look like Diana Ross. I might be Dinosaur Ross, but I’m gonna do her.” So I came out on stage and the music was “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough” was booming. So I’m backstage as the music playing I’m 19 �getting psyched up to hit the stage, got psyched up honey, the music starts booming and I hit the stage, busted through the curtain, people’s mouths flew wide open. I came up on this table, a table on this side, a table across there and there, and I came on down and got in the middle of the floor and performed and I went ahead and went towards where they were sitting at and was doing “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough,” and you cannot believe what somebody hollered. “Look at Diana Ross, she done ate the Supremes!” [laughter] I was cracked but I went on. So I said, “oh we gon’ play this like this.” So I said okay for my second number I’m going to let them know that big girls can do whatever they want. I had did, they got a song by Jennifer Holiday called “No Frills Love” and it’s fast. So I put on that straight fringe outfit, boots, got me a wig that comes to my shoulders and I came back out and I tore the house down. You talk about shaking up some chicken grease, I shook it up that night honey [laughter]. I got right there in front of where all of them was and I had did the dance where you do a kick and you kick back and I went into a spin and I came out with a split. They were through! I said “this is what happens when you’re a big girl We can twirl, too.” It’s always going to be somebody that’s going to criticize you on stage, but I learned when it comes to pageantry, if you don’t have yourself together you will be the basement beast of the ball, honey. I learned that lesson hard. The first time I ran for Miss Roanoke At Large, my first year, it was a big disaster because the girls that I had that was helping me with this, half of them was on crack, half of them was drunk. So the day of the pageant they supposed to help me and they been out all night partying. I had to sew my gown by hand, my updo was a mess cause I had a big basketball face, they had snatched my hair back with a little tiny ball on the top of my head so I looked like a dark tan top off a cookie jar. It was awful. My gown was handmade. It was just one disaster but I went ahead and pressed on. I did get first runner up. It was six contestants and I got first runner up. But I saw my mistakes, and I learned from my mistakes so when I ran in 1994 I came for them. Oh I was very clever honey. I took and brought all the old stuff I had used years before and hung it up in the dressing room and you had a little group of queens that would make fun of you, and they sat and seen what I was storing up on the rack. But I had remembered that in this game there is always a person that you don’t expect to be close to. When big Neely O’Hara from Greensboro, North Carolina—Neely is 7’1’’ feet tall and Neely was about 250 pounds, big girl. Didn’t nobody speak to her, and I came up to her and I carried on a conversation with her and we ended up being best friends. When she found out I was running for Miss Roanoke At Large she says come to Greensboro I got something for you. She gave me the gown to wear, she put together my talent and stuff, and that night of the pageant I was ready. Oh I came for them, they thought I was gonna be the same old country cowboys, mm-mm. So when it came to talent my talent was flawless. I got a standing ovation. When it came to creative fashion, I mean sportswear, I added dimensions out here at Valley View [shopping mall] and got my little outfit and honey, when it came to evening gown they were shocked. I had a friend that took two wigs, put them on top of each other with freakish curls in it and I won talent, I won best in evening gown, and when they crowned me I said “mm-hmm,” the same ones that picked are the same ones that got they face cracked, and the same ones when I came through and set my crown down there on the table to pack my stuff up to leave, here they come. “Well girl you shocked us!” “Really? Oh I can tell you wasn’t shocked.” “Oh but we was!” “Good, you got a lot to come later on.” 20 �Those was the days. I learned a lot doing drag history, I learned about AIDS, I learned about a whole lot of education on myself and things, and I’m doing fine now. You know, I got neighbors over there at where I live at. A lot of them don’t care for drag. I don’t do drag at home. If I have a show I will take my costumes out but I come out as a boy and when I come back home I come as a boy. Because the name of the game is respect, and you have to learn to respect where you’re living. If you ain’t got no respect for where you live then it’s going to cause a problem. You got other people that want to carry on like that. Like I was sitting at my house a couple of months ago and here come two drag queens to my house in broad daylight and I noticed because I heard, one of them called to say “where you living?” and I gave them my address and I didn’t know they were in drag. And believe me the neighbors came out, and they knocked on my door, I said “y’all come in.” I said, “you knew better than to come here like that. I said dragging is a place and a time for everything. You don’t do that.” “We thought we…” “You can’t pass.” They look like… one woman, queen, rough. I mean real rough. We call her Freida Flintstone because she looks like Fred Flintstone’s mama [laughter]. [1:19:54] AG: So I know you had mentioned when you were getting help with your first pageant that people were drinking and doing drugs and things, did Roanoke have a big drug scene? Was that a problem? [1:20:09] MGK: Back then, back in the old days, it was more like drinking. I mean, as far as pot, it wasn’t that much around. It was around but I guess people didn’t pay it no mind most of the day what they did was drink. [1:20:28] AG: So, what would be your biggest takeaway from doing drag? What was the biggest life lesson that you learned? [1:20:39] MGK: What lesson I learned from it? I learned a lot. I mean, I always wanted to get a crown, I always wanted to get trophies to prove that I have done what I have done and how my career went with me doing drag. It makes me proud to sit there and look up on the shelf and there’s a crown, there’s your drag picture, and you accomplished all that. A lot of people couldn't do it, because I was scared to death. When they told me about doing it I was through, cause I had seen them do it I just didn’t think I would do it. I got the nerve to do it and I’m glad that’s over with. [1:21:31] AG: Did you ever notice a lot of other people of color doing drag in Roanoke? Was that a thing, or was it more Caucasians doing drag? [1:21:44] MGK: Well, back in the day it was more, it was a lot of white queens doing drag. Then it started being to where it was a lot of black stuff, but the most amazing thing I have learned in my drag career is I have always wanted to see a whole black pageant and up in Atlanta they have all of that, they have Miss Black Universe, they have Miss Black America, they have Miss Black USA, and it’s so nice to see that. I mean, you’d be shocked at what you see in those kinds of pageants because a lot of people, they do old school and they have the boy pageants, too. 21 �They had a group of boys that came out dressed like the Jackson 5 and they had the big afros and their outfits were gleaming and they was doing a routine that was cute. They had one queen come out and she was doing Denise Williams’ song called “Black Butterfly,” and she come out doing that and all of a sudden this great big guy dressed up in a butterfly outfit, real masculine looking. And when she got down near the end of the song the boy turned to the audience and took his mess off and you talking about something that fierce. He was, mmm… I can’t say the words I want to express, but he was drop dead, kick yourself in the balls, gorgeous. He was lovely chunky chunk honey. [1:23:11] AG: So do you think that in Roanoke there’s a lot of diversity within the gay community? [1:23:17] MGK: Yup. [1:23:19] AG: And do you think that’s continued today, that there’s still a lot of diversity or has that clique-like culture that you’ve talked about, do you think that that’s influenced how diverse the community has been? 1:23:41: [Material removed from transcript at MGK’s request.] 1:24:26 AG: So, do you think that Roanoke, today, is accepting? 1:24:31 MGK: I think that back in the, you know, the old days it was a lot of diversity about a lot of people didn’t like drag queens. “Fag this” and “fag that,” but it's a lot of acceptance and it’s changed over the years. 1:24:39 AG: Do you wish that there were more venues for drag shows and things like that to be happening again, like old school shows in Roanoke? 1:24:59 MGK: That’s what I like about they have it at the Jefferson Center because it’s more for us, the old drag comunity; and the old drag community brings out the older crowd. Down there at The Park, you’ve got teenagers. They serve alcohol, but they’re not making no money [because] they can’t drink. So, they’re messing up themselves because older people like to drink and they’re gonna support the bar. They don’t support the bar, because they’re not making money like they’re supposed to because they’re teenagers. See they figured if they cater to the younger crowd you’ll get more money, but it doesn't work that way. Now okay, it's like this. At The Park they would bring in female impersonators from RuPaul’s Drag Race and they bring those people in, but how much money you spending? You’re spending thousands of dollars to get them here when you got perfect talent here. They have brought in a lot of RuPaul’s Drag Race people. They even had brought in Lady Bunny. Lady Bunny is the one that discovered RuPaul. She’s been here several times. 1:26:20 AG: Has RuPaul ever been here? 22 �1:26:21 MGK: No, they said she has the nastiest attitude you’ll ever see. So, Charlottesville wanted to bring RuPaul to a club, 216, in Charlottesville, and they talked to her and she was kind of snobbish to them so they said “well, we gonna work you.” They brought Lady Bunny in, [the one] that created RuPaul. 1:26:46 AG: So do you think that the queens that are on RuPaul’s Drag show, those are the types of queens that are sort of changing how it is now and making it more of like a competition type of thing? 1:27:00 MGK: Yeah, they have a queen that lives here from Roanoke that was on RuPaul's Drag Race, and when she got up there she got famous and it went to her head. She did not acknowledge that she was from Virginia and she’s a very talented queen. She started drag when she was 14 years old, she sews, and one of the best performers you’ve ever met in your life. She went on to work for this other drag queen that makes beaded gowns, her name is Coco Vega, she’s in Las Vegas now performing. So she done made it up in the big top. But, like they say, you never forget where you come from. 1:26:46 AG: So do you think that there is a disconnect between the younger, teenage gay community and the older community? Is there a reason, do you think, that there is such a big disconnect? 1:27:58 MGK: It’s mainly because the younger crowd they don’t know about the history, they just out there doing drag. They going out by what they hear but they are the type that don’t want you to tell them anything. I mean, if a person needs help I’ll go over and help them, but when you go up to a person and you try to be polite and help them, they turn around with a little smart answer like, “I got this. I don’t need your help.” “Okay, alright.” Then when you don’t win tonight like they do talent and you don’t win, you get your face cracked; and then I say, “Oh what happened girl?” She said, “What?” “You didn’t win. Your head was up in the clouds. What happened?” She says, “I think I made several mistakes.” I said, “No, you know everything.” 1:28:50 AG: So do you think a project like this is good to help sort of bridge that gap between the younger and older generations to get those stories out there? 1:28:59 MGK: It will, because it will educate the young ones that don’t know better. Which need to be knowing better, I mean, it’s just that the younger crowd has just done destroyed drag history. They really have. Like years ago you got paid for doing shows at The Park, we don’t get paid at The Park because why should you pay us older girls when you got the young ones doing it for free? 1:29:45 AG: I lost my train of thought… I totally had a question and it just went out of my head because I was listening. So, do you think that in Roanoke there’s enough knowledge about the queer, trans, drag black community? Or do you still think that that’s almost like a taboo subject that people don’t talk about? 23 �1:30:14 MGK: A lot of them don’t talk about it. I mean that’s why me and Carolyn [Sue Wilson] been friends for many, many years and we talk about the old days. I mean I was at my house and I was going through some pictures and I had ran across a picture that we, a show we had did at The Horoscope and I took a picture of way back when, and I called her up and gave her several pictures of when she used to do shows at The Horoscope. Because Carolyn Wilson was the very first drag queen that they put in The Roanoker magazine. And see back then you don’t see no other drag queens in there. Back in the day she was a fabulous entertainer, still is today! She still does drag. She was at the Jefferson Center last month [January 2018] that’s when she last performed and I mean, a lot of people change over the years, she doesn’t. I mean she’s got the same body, the same look, and you know some people change over the years and some people don’t. 1:31:29 AG: So do you think that over time, say from like the [19]70s to now, 2018, the black community has become a little more accepting of the gay community and the trans community and stuff like that? 1:31:43 MGK: They have, but the main thing is they need to learn how to respect people. If you going up in a public place and you going through there switching and flaming and acting like a fool, you’re going to get a response; but if you carry yourself as a gay person and just go. You know, you can tell a person is gay, you don't have to show it, but you’ve got the young crowds that goes to the malls in drag and stuff and you know, we didn’t do stuff like that. A lot of the younger people like to push the issues. 1:32:22 AG: So do you feel like that’s where a lot of the disconnect is between the older and younger generation? Where the younger generation is more focused on being more in-your-face and putting the issues, almost branding themselves as this is what I am? 1:32:36 MGK: Yes. Yes. 1:32:38 AG: So the would you say that the older generation, they don’t focus as much on labeling themselves? 1:32:44 MGK: mm-mm, and I like gay pride and everything but there’s a place and time for everything. When you got gay pride going on, you got the churches right downtown at Elmwood Park and you’re right downtown when people coming out the church they don’t need to see that. Because when they first started having gay pride over here in Highland Park it was a nice place to have it and when they had it at Wasena it was nice, but you got other people, you know, the gay crowd that overdoes it, flames and flies all around the sidewalks hollering and stuff. You don't have to do that. You don’t. We used to do drag shows at gay pride, when we was at Highland Park which was nice, but over the years everything changes. 1:33:38 AG: Do you think that the black church has become more accepting? 24 �1:33:46 MGK: Some have. A lot of people are stuck in their old ways, they’ll never change, but you got some that will accept you and some won’t. 1:34:00 AG: And I know there’s always talk of gay choir directors and there’s always choir members, and you can always tell. Do you think that the fact that we don’t talk about it as the black community, is that one of the reasons why you see a lack of diversity within not only the gay community but the drag community as well, because there’s not that freedom to express how you feel? 1:34:26 MGK: Mm-hmm [yes]. 1:34:29 AG: And is that something you ever felt like you struggled with? 1:34:32 MGK: Yeah. I mean when they wanted to have meetings at The Park and stuff and they’d talk about this, they’d talk about that, but the young crowd is still not coming across, and they never ever will. Never ever will. 1:34:55 AG: So do you think that maybe by getting all these different stories out, getting these people of color stories out for people to hear will start making that gap a little smaller? Sort of bring the generations back together a little? 1:35:11 MGK: Yes, mm-hmm. Because, see, back in the day, around The Horoscope days, you had, I mean it was a beautiful club and you had straights and gays going there and everybody got along. I mean you never heard of no fighting at The Horoscope, you never heard nothing like that. The whole community was in there together and everything was fine. The Park was the same way later on. 1:35:42 AG: So is there anything that you would say to maybe like a newer drag queen coming in? Any specific advice you would give someone coming into the scene? 1:35:53 MGK: I gave several of them. You know, I got my daughter Kristina Kelly. When I first met her—I met her when she was, I think I met her when she was 16 or 17—and I was in The Park one night in drag and I noticed every time I would come in the club they’d be sitting somewhere staring. A lot of people would, when we used to come in there we would be about six of us in drag and we’d walk through and the younger queens would sit in the corner and stare. One night, I think Kristina had just turned 17, she was up in the bar and we came in and she was just staring and the other little young queen said, “oh, don’t go there, she’s mean,” and I went over to the snack area. They was telling her about “don’t go there, she’s mean,” and I’m hearing all this through my ear. So Kristina comes up and she tells them, she says, “Look, I don’t know her and I’m going to get to know her.” So she same up and she introduced herself. She said, “My name is Christopher, I’m from Lexington, Virginia, and I’d just like to meet you.” So we sat back and we talked and everything. One night at the bar she decided to put herself in drag, and oh honey, it was a mess. And here I am standing up against the wall watching the 25 �drag show and here she comes through the door, heads turn, and guess who she comes to? Straight to me and I nearly had a conniption. So I got with her and I taught her very well about drag and everything. I started her and I made costumes, I did everything for her. On her first talent night at The Park, she won. But you know it just starts off like that. You’ve got some people that wants to be helped, they don’t mind and you don’t mind helping; but you got those that think they’re grand and lovely, I don’t help them because they can't be helped. They cannot; they’re too rude. I have two friends, one friend has been out doing drag for four years, never accomplished nothing, always a mess. You got this other queen that comes in, that’s her cousin, has did drag for two whole years, this child has got titles on top of titles. This other queen she paid for her titles. Like, they had a pageant in Harrisonburg, Virginia, and she paid so much money to win the pageant, that’s not good drag to me. You have to learn and you have to earn your working. I mean, some people have it on Easy Street, and this child had been doing drag for four years and still ain’t accomplished nothing and the other child came out in two years and she accomplished within the two years she had came out [more than the other queen]. And she’s beautiful now. She does drag, she’s a former Miss Gay Roanoke, she’s got titles on top of titles. I got a daughter that lives in Atlanta, Georgia and I met her when she was 18, she’s doing real well, she’s got titles on top of titles. And a lot of girls is like this: a lot of girls know how Roanoke is, they leave Roanoke to go out of town and make a name for themselves. Some of them, if you stay in Roanoke, you're not going to make nothing of yourself, and most that have left they have made something of themselves. 1:39:38 AG: So would you say that Roanoke is not a place… 1:39:40 MGK: It’s not Roanoke, it’s the people. I mean it’s the people, the different cliques, and that’s what destroyed a lot of the girls because you’ve got these different cliques of people. Like I was on stage one night performing at The Park and these boys were making fun of me and I was nice, took them outside on the patio, and I put him in his place. I said, “I tell you what, let’s see you get up there in a dress.” And I have seen this happen in Charlottesville, a queen was up there, she’s been doing Patti LaBelle for many, many years, excellent performer. She was on stage doing Patti LaBelle and this guy in the audience was hollering, making fun of her. She looked at the owner of the bar and she said, “I got this.” She went out on stage, snatched him up, made him get on stage, she took her wig off and put it on him and you know what she told him, “Now you get your ass out here and do it and you better not miss a word.” Now he was embarrassed, because there’s always going to be that kind of person that’s going to try to bring you down and them the kind you give a hot ignore to. 1:40:59 AG: Well, I think that this will definitely help get the drag history back out there and really open up for the Roanoke community. 1:41:08 MGK: I mean if the cliques and all that, everybody pulled together… but they don’t. Until they do it’s not going to be like it once is [was]. 26 �1:41:21 AG: I this is a great first step and I would like to thank you very much letting me interview you today. 1:41:25 MGK: I thank you all, I was nervous. I said to myself, “Lord they gon’ call.” But you know I’m comfortable talking about it with you two [Ashleigh and Princess] because like I said, the word needs to get out there. I mean they need to learn and stuff but I’m happy I did it. 1:41:40 AG: We’re happy you did it, too. It’s great to have this story so thank you. [END] 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Miss Grace Kelly Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Ashleigh Griffin; Princess Carter Interviewee: Miss Grace Kelly Date: 24 February 2018 Duration: 1:41:40 Transcription prepared by: Ashleigh Griffin Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 24 February 2018 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Miss Grace Kelly, Ashleigh Griffin, Princess Carter Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All Rights Reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KellyGraceMiss https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4443/WilsonCarolynSue.mp3 0a82a7ed8ce0fd87b9aaf7735d4b18f2 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/4443/WilsonCarolynSue.1.pdf cd9ff3acbdbad32a229cd9a08b8ede9c PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative The QTPOC Project: Representation Matters Interview with Carolyn Sue Wilson February 25, 2018 Interviewer: Kitty Bridgewater Interviewee: Carolyn Sue Wilson Date: February 25, 2018 Location: Home of Carolyn Sue Wilson in Roanoke, Virginia Transcribed by: Kitty Bridgewater Total: 1:22:48 0:00 – childhood in Gary, West Virginia (1950s-1960s); moved to Roanoke at age 21 (1972) 2:34 – gender fluidity; pronouns 3:44 – coming to Roanoke in 1972; staying at the YMCA; making gay friends 4:17 – discovering The Trade Winds; Horoscope; Murphy’s; Miss Gay Roanoke drag pageant (1970s) 5:29 – School experiences in West Virginia; school desegregation (1960s) 7:09 – first experiences in Roanoke (1972); the YMCA 9:00 – discussing The Trade Winds (1970s) 10:22 – Elmwood Park and surrounding (gay scene) in 1970s 11:15 – cross-dressing in West Virginia (1960s); performing drag for first time at The Trade Winds (1972) 14:25 – The Horoscope; The Park (late 1970s); hosting and performing in drag shows and pageants 17:54 – HIV/ the AIDS crisis (1980s) 19:48 – The Park nightclub (1978- ) 21:15 – Experiences as a Black person in Roanoke’s drag scene; white queens versus Black queens; Black people’s experiences at Horoscope and Trade Winds 26:21 – The dating scene; hanging around the City Market building (1970s) 28:45 – Employment experiences 29:52 – Performing drag in other cities: D.C.; Norfolk; North Carolina; West Virginia 32:09 – types of drag pageantry; the expense of purchasing materials; the types of titles to be won 35:31 – body modifications in drag (body/facial hair; breasts; surgeries); views on body modification within the drag community 38:38 – early experiences cross-dressing; high school experience in West Virginia (1960s); relationships with siblings 42:50 – running away from home at age 15 (c. 1965); relationship with her father 49:35 – relationship with her mother; wearing mom’s clothes (1950s-1960s) �51:55 – views on transgender identity; hormone replacement therapy; trans youth 54:49 – views on the Trump administration; current protest movements 57:16 – current involvement in the community; fear of going out; reflections on working at The Park for 34 years 1:00:30 – transgender issues in the workplace; bathroom access; relationship with neighbors 1:05:24 – reflections on the past, present, future 1:07:19 – working as a street queen / trans sex worker in Roanoke (1970s) 1:11:15 – mentorship and drag families 1:13:36 – current divisions within Roanoke’s drag community (2010s); conflict over drag at Pride in the Park, and at The Park night club 1:19:35 – performing with The Bowties (a drag group) at The Park, and in D.C. (1980s) 1:20:59 – Concluding thoughts KB:   00:00:00   Good.  All  right,  my  name  is  Kitty  Bridgewater  and  I'm  here  with   Miss  Carolyn  Sue  Wilson  and  I'm  conducting  an  interview  on   behalf  of  the  Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  Oral  history  project.   Today  is  [February  25,  2018]  and  we  are  in  Miss  Carolyn's  home.   So,  uh,  you  grew  up  here  in  the  Roanoke  area?     CW:   00:00:21   Hmm  mm.  Yes  I  do.   KB:   00:00:22   All  right.  So  why  don't  we  just  start  about,  uh,  how  about  you   tell  me  a  little  bit  about  your  childhood  growing  up.     CW:   00:00:26   OK,  well  I'm  from  West  Virginia,  a  little  town  called  Gary,  West   Virginia.  I  was  born  and  raised  there.  I  left  at  the  age  of  21  and  I   came  here  in  Roanoke  in  [19]72,  April  15th  of  '72.  And  this  is   where  I  reside  at  the  time  being.   KB:   00:00:45   So,  uh,  how  about  your  childhood,  moving  here?  What  age  did   you  guys...   CW:   00:00:45   I  came  here  when  I  was  21.     KB:   00:00:45   Oh,  ok.   CW:   00:00:59   I  always  been  Miss  Carolyn  from  five  all  the  way  up  to  67  [years   old],  but  I  always  been,  I  always  know  the  way  I  was.  You  know.   And  I  never  had  any  major  problem  about  it,  you  know,  people   never,  I  was  a  little  bit  picked  on,  but  nothing  serious.  Never   have  had  any  problem  with  that.  People  begin  to  accept  me  as  I   am,  I  guess.     2 �KB:   00:01:21   OK,  so  you  are  from  West  Virginia,  So,  how  was  your  childhood,   in  West  Virginia?     CW:   00:01:26   It  was  good.  I  mean…  good.  I  started  having  problems  there.  I   graduated,  went  to  school,  graduated,  and  then  when  I  finished   school  I  went  to  work  for  the  city  of  Gary  and  worked  there  for   a  year  and  then  from  there  on  I  moved  out  of  town,  I  moved   from  there.     KB:   00:01:51   So,  how  about  your  family?     CW:   00:01:53   My  family  they  accept  me  very  well  and  I  have  no  problems  with   them,  and  I  have  one  brother  and  three  sisters  and  they  don't…   accept  me  as  I  am,  my  mother  accepted  me  as  I  was.  She's   passed  and  my  father,  he  gave  me  a  hard  time  but  um,  he's   passed  too,  so  I  think  at  the  end  he  accepted  me  as  me  and   that's  the  best  that…  they  accept  me  as  I  am  and  I'm  proud.  My   sister  told  me  that  as  long  you  respect  me,  I'll  respect  you.  So  I   say  that's  a  deal.  And  that's  what  she  gets.     KB:   00:02:34   OK.  So  how  do  you  personally  identify?   CW:   00:02:43   Myself?  I'm  just  me.  I  don't  try…  I  don't  try  to  be  a  woman  and  I   don't  try  to  be  a  man,  I'm  just  trying  to  be  a  human  being,  you   know,  just  me.  And  most  people  call  me  “she”  and  I  accept  that,   and  at  work  they  call  me  “he,”  you  know,  naturally,  but  that's   how  I  present  myself,  either  one  it  doesn't  matter  to  me.  You   can  call  me  either  one,  it  doesn’t  matter.  [laughs]   KB:   00:03:10   So  when  did  you  realize  that  you  were  maybe  a  little  different   or...   CW:   00:03:15   Oh  God,  when  I  was  five  years  old.  I  always  knew,  well  I  never   knew  the  word  “gay”  until  I  really  came  here  to  Roanoke,  really,   basically.  In  West  Virginia  they  would,  they  would  prefer  a   “sissy”  or  “punk”  or  something  like  that.  I  never  heard  the  word   “gay,”  “queer,”  none  of  that  stuff  until  I  came  here  in  Roanoke.   So  that's  that.   KB:   00:03:44   And  how  was  that  transition,  like  coming  to  Roanoke  and...?     CW:   00:03:53   Golly,  It  was  amazing.  Uh,  well  I  would  walk  down  the  street  and   I  see  a  child  smoking  and  it  was  just…  [gasp].  “My  God,  that   little  boy  is  smoking!”  But  when  I  first  came,  I  came  to  the  Y   [YMCA].  I  stayed  at  the  Y  for  about  six  months  and  I  made   beautiful  friends.  They  took  care  of  me,  the  gay  people,  you   3 �know,  they  took  care  of  me  and  everything  and  then  I  started   going  to  the  bars  and  stuff  like  that.       00:04:17   And  then  I  wind  up,  um,  my  first  year  I  started  going  I  went  to   Trade  Winds,  a  bar  called  Trade  Winds.  I  don't  know  if  ya'll…   ya'll  are  too  young  to  remember  Trade  Winds,  but  it  was  on   Franklin  Road.  There  was,  I  think  that  was  the  only  gay  bar  here,   so  I  went  there  and,  ran  the  pageant,  became  the  second   runner  up  to  Miss  Gay  Roanoke,  which  was  exciting.  And  then,   then  they  closed  and  it  went  to  another  bar  called  Murphy's,   which  I  never  went  there.  And  then  Horoscope,  y'all  ever  heard   of  Horoscope?  I  started  going  there  and  there  I  won  Miss  Gay   Roanoke.  I  was  the  first  black  Miss  Gay  Roanoke,  the  second   and  first  black,  and  it  was  amazing.  And  then  from  there  I  just,   my  life  just  bloomed.  I  became  the…  I  won  a  lot  of  awards,  you   know,  they  say  I  was  the  first  person  to  go  to  Norfolk  and  win   fresh  out  of  town  entertainment.  I  won  an  award  in  Norfolk,   been  around  a  few  blocks.   KB:   00:05:29   OK.  So  just  for  the  sake  of  establishing  a  timeline,  let's  go  back   to  West  Virginia.  So,  your  school  days,  um,  how  was  school?  I   know  like,  you're  born  in  1950?  so  that's  right  around  time  of   like  integration,  and  things  like  that.  So  how  was  that?   CW:   00:05:50   That  was  interesting.  The  school  I  did  go  to  was  Gary  district  and   that  was  the  black  school  I  went  to,  and  then  they  integrated  in   [19]60-­‐something,  [19]67,  something  like  that.  So  we  went  to   the,  well,  all-­‐white  school.  I  was  one  of  the  black  people  that   went  to  that  school,  but  it  was  predominantly  white  people  and   I  had  no  problem  with  it.  No,  I  had  no  problem  with  it  and  I   don’t  think  anybody  there,  any  of  the  black  students,  had  any   problems.  I  was  just  shocked  to  come  here  and  hear  about  riots   and  stuff.  I  was  like  “What?”  We  didn't  have  that  in  West   Virginia,  and  people  talked  about  me.  They  called  me  “sissy”   and  stuff  like  that.  It  wasn’t  major  to  me,  you  know,  it  wasn't  a   major  thing  to  me.  I  had  a  sister  that  was  very  mean  and  she   would  take  up  for  me.  You  did  not  mess  with  me  because  she   would  get  you.     KB:   00:06:48   So  it  was  a  pretty  smooth  transition?   CW:   00:06:51   To  me  it  was.  I  had  no  problem  with  it.   KB:   00:06:55   OK,  what  about  high  school?  How  was…?   CW:   00:06:58   High  school  was  about  the  same.  Yeah,  high  school  was  about   the  same.  Graduated,  left,  got  out.  Yay.     4 �KB:   00:07:09   OK.  So  when  you  came  to  Roanoke,  uh,  how  was  the,  I  guess,   the  gay  scene?  How  was  your  introduction,  like  when  you  first   got  here,  what  was  it  like?     CW:   00:07:20   Oh  God.  When  I  first  got  here,  I  got  off  the  bus  with  one   suitcase.  Got  to  the  [a  place]  downtown,  and  I  asked  somebody   where  was  the  Y  [YMCA].  And  he  said  “about  two  blocks  up,”   and  I  looked  down  at  the  ground,  said  “want  to,  I'm  not  going  to   be  at  the  Y.”  So  I  was  sort  of…  I  was  green.  I  mean  I  was  real   green.  I  didn't  know  what  The  Block  [cruising  area]  was.  I  didn't   know  none  of  this  stuff.  So  uh,  I  asked  somebody  else.  They  said   “just  straight  up  the  street.  Go  straight  up  the  street  and  you'll   see.”  And  I  walked  straight  up  the  street,  there  it  was.  But,  the   gay  scene….  like  I  said,  I  stayed  at  the  Y,  I  made  friends  at  the  Y,   so  they  start  introducing  me  to  Trade  Winds,  the  bar.  So  that   started  me  into  my  basically  gay,  gay  life.  That  was  amazing.     KB:   00:08:14   So  you  said  you  moved  here  when  you  were  21?  So  that's   around  like  [19]70,  [19]71?  So  that's  around  the  time  of  like  the   Stonewall  Riots  and  the  gay  liberation  movement.  So  how  was   that  in  Roanoke?  Like?  Was  it  really  present  or  like  were  you   guys  just  like  hearing  about  it?     CW:   00:08:35   I  think  it  was  just  like,  I  hear  about  it.  I  didn't  participate  in  stuff   like  that.  So,  to  me,  nowadays,  I  don't  know  back  then  cause  I   never  participated,  nowadays  is  too  one  sided  for  me,  you   know,  that  stuff  they  have  in  the  park  down  there,  too  one   sided.  I  don't  participate  in  it.  I  feel  like  it’s  one  sided.       KB:   00:09:00   So  you  said  Trade  Winds?  Was  that  a  place  that  you   frequented?   CW:   00:09:05   It  was  a  bar.  A  gay  bar.   KB:   00:09:07   Yeah,  I  heard  some  about  that.  First  gay  bar  here  in  Roanoke.     CW:   00:09:11   Yeah,  sure  enough  was.   KB:   00:09:12   So,  what  was  that  like?  Was  there  a  diverse  like…  was  there   mostly  gay  or  was  there  straights?     CW:   00:09:19   Uh,  some  straights  came  down  there,  but  I  think  it  was  mostly   gay.  Mostly  gay  people.   KB:   00:09:25   Was  it  gay  ownership  or…?   5 �CW:   00:09:28   Um-­‐hmm.  All  the  guys  that  owned  it…  you  say  don't  say   names…  they’re  all  dead  anyway.  So  they  owned  it.  It  was…   three  men  that  owned  it,  and  they  were  gay  themselves.  So   there  was  no  problem  with  that.  And  there  were  three  parts  of   it,  you  had  the  basement,  the  middle,  and  the  upstairs.  Upstairs   is  where  they  get  shows  at.     KB:   00:09:52   OK,  how  was  that?       CW:   00:09:54   It  was  a  small  place,  sort  of  small  place.  But  it  was  pretty  good.   When  we  had  shows  it  was  pretty  packed.  People  wanting  to   come  out  and  see  the  girls  [laughs]  dressed  up.     KB:   00:10:10   So  you  said  you  made  some  good  friends?     CW:   00:10:13   On  yeah.  Very  good  friends.  Very  good  friends.  They  took  very   good  care  of  me.     KB:   00:10:18   Were  you  meeting  them  at  the  YMCA?   CW:   00:10:21   Yes,  at  the  Y.  Made  them  at  the  Y.  They  introduced  me  to   everything,  the  lifestyle,  which  was  interesting.  But  most  of   them  are  gone.     KB:   00:10:33   OK.  So,  what  about  any  other  [places],  like  Trade  Winds…  I  know   like  Elmwood  Park  was  a  pretty  big...     CW:   00:10:40   Yeah,  Elmwood  Park  was  booming  back  then.  You  had  a  diner   called  Elmwood  Diner.  It  was  a  little  old  diner  in  between,  you   know,  where  Anthem  is  now?  That  used  to  be  the  Moose  Lodge   and  then  um,  Elmwood  Diner  was  there.  And  then  the   Downtowner  Motel  was  on  the  other  side  of  it.  It  was  a  motel   there.  Where  Social  Security  is.  And  we  all  frequented  all  of   that,  you  know,  we  went  to  all  this  stuff  and  um,  but  the  park   was  real  festive  back  then.  The  park  was  good.   KB:   00:11:15   So  I  know  that  you  won  Miss  Gay  Roanoke  for  the  second  time,   and  you  were  first  black  Miss  Gay  Roanoke.  So  how  did  you,   how  was  your  introduction  to  that  scene?  Kind  of  the  drag   scene?  Is  that  how  you  would  refer  to  it?  OK,  so,  let's  set  this   up.  Like  when  did  you  first  become  interested  in  [drag]?  Like   how  did  you…?   CW:   00:11:38   Start  dressing?  Well  I  start  dressing  in  West  Virginia.  I  had  a  real   good  friend,  um,  that  we,  we  dressed  and  we’d  get  out  on  the   roads  and  walk  down  the  roads  sexily(?)  and  have  fun  like  that.   But  uh,  that's  where  I  first  started  dressing  at.  Not  the  make  up,   6 �just  dress,  you  know,  just  put  a  dress  on  and  run  outside  and   play  at  nighttime.  And  then  um,  when  I  really  started  doing  it   was  here  in  Roanoke  in  the  1970s,  in  the  ‘70s  when  I  start  at   The  Trade  Winds.  That's  when  it  really  popped  off  to  me.   KB:   00:12:12   So  do  you  remember  your  first  performance?     CW:   00:12:18   Yeah,  it  was  in  [19]70-­‐something,  probably  [19]72.  And  my  first   song  was  “Tell  Mama.”  That  was  my  first  drag  song  I  did,  was   “Tell  Mama.”  But  dang  …  I  could  do  it  for  you  now.  But  that  was   my  first  song  and  I  remember,  uh,  I  had  on...  What  did  I  have   on?  A  white  dress?  I  think  it  was  a  white  dress.  I  think  it  was   gold  up  in  here  or  something  like  that.  It  was  way  back.  But,  uh,   I  enjoyed.  Made  good  tips,  back  then.  And  really,  my  life  started   out  real  good  with…  my  gay  life  started  real  good;  people   respected  me  and  calling  on  me  and  friends  and  they  liked  me   real  well.     KB:   00:13:10   So  how  did  you  feel  about  it?  Were  you  nervous?  Were  you   excited?     CW:   00:13:14   No  I  don’t  really  get  nervous.  Don’t  get  nervous.  Just  say,  well,  if   I  do  good,  I  do  good.  If  I  do  bad,  I  do  bad.  So  most  of  the  time  I'd   do  good.  Pretty  good.  Not  Bragging,  but  that  usually  I  do  pretty   good.     KB:   00:13:28   So  I'm  assuming  there  was  a  pretty  good  reception.     CW:   00:13:32   Oh  yeah.  Yeah.  Pretty  much  so.     KB:   00:13:38   So  I  saw  online  that  you're  pretty  like  famous  or  known  for  like,   you're  like  impressions  of  Aretha  Franklin,  Janet  Jackson,  Patti   Labelle.  OK,  let's  talk  about  that.     CW:   00:13:52   Oh  God.  Ah,  let’s  see,  my  favorite  person…  When  I  first  started   doing  this,  I  was  a  Diana  Ross  freak.  I  saw  Diana  Ross  five  times   in  person  and  I  was  a  freak  of  hers.  So  that  was  my  first  one.   Then  I  started  doing  Janet  and  Patti  and  you  know,  different   ones  like,  you  know,  whatever  style  come  out  famous,  you   know,  you  usually  try  to  do  that  song.  So  I  pretty  well  on  that.  I   got  some  pictures  of  her.  I’ll  give  you  one  of  them  in  my  crown.   So  you  can  have  a  picture  of  me.     KB:   00:14:25   OK.  So  [19]71  you  came  to  Roanoke.  What  was  happening  late   seventies?   7 �CW:   00:14:31   Late  seventies?  Let’s  see,  what  was  going  on?  Ah,  like  Trade   Winds  had  been  closed  and  then  I  think  it’s  a  bar  named   Murphy's.  I'm  not  really  for  sure.  I  never  did  go  there  to  that   one.  It  was  downtown  right  down  from  the  um,  Appalachian   Power.  I  never  frequented  that  one.  I’d  never  go  to  that  one,   and  then  another  one  called  Horoscope  opened,  and  that's  the   one  I  started  going  to.  I  had  the  key  to  it.  The  guy  really  liked   me,  you  know,  as  a  person,  he  liked  me.  I  would  go  in  to   organize  shows  and  pageants  and  everything.  So  that  was  the   hippest  bar  in  [19]75?  Yeah.  Seventy-­‐five.     00:15:16   ’74,  ’75,  I  think  and  then  when  it  closed  I  think  The  Park  opened   in  ‘78,  ‘77  or  something  like  that.  And  then  I  went  to  work   there.  I  worked  at  a  Horoscope.  Then  I  worked  at  The  Park,  too.     KB:   00:15:34   So  you  said  you  were  organizing  pageants?  So  was  it  more  of   like  behind  the  scenes  or  were  you  in  them  also?     CW:   00:15:37   Well,  the  first  one  we  had  I  won  Miss  Roanoke  at  The   Horoscope.  Then,  from  then  on,  he  gave  me  the  thing  to  just  go   on  ahead  and  start  organizing  pageants  and  stuff  like  that.  So  I   started  doing  that  for  him.  And  it  was  a  hip  thing  back  then.  It's   straight  and  gay  came  there.  Straight  and  gay.  It  was  just  really,   really  hip  back  in  the  days.     KB:   00:15:59   So  what  led  you  to  enter  the  Miss  Gay  Roanoke  pageant?     CW:   00:16:04   For  fun.  Just  for  fun.  I  just  said,  well  I’ll  just  dress  up  and  go  do  it   and  if  anything  happens…  and  I  did  and  came  in  second  place  at   that…  at  the  Trade  Winds.   KB:   00:16:17   So  what  is  involved  in  the  pageant?  Are  there  like,  is  it  kinda  like   the  Miss  America?  Like  there  are  different  events  and  like…?     CW:   00:16:25   Now,  at  Trade  Winds,  it  was  just  dressing  up,  and  who  looked   good.  Not  pretty  or  good,  just  dressed  good.  You  know,  you   look  like  you  just  look  good.  Nowadays,  at  the  pageants  they   have  these  days  is  you  have  interview,  you  have  talent,  and  you   have  gown.  And  I  think  I  see  those  three.     KB:   00:16:50   Have  you  been  involved  in  some  of  those?     CW:   00:16:51   No,  I  sat  on…  I'm  already  Miss  Roanoke.  I  can't  run  again.     KB:   00:16:55   OK.  No  I  mean  organizing  and  things  like  that.     8 �CW:   00:16:56   Uh-­‐uh  [no].  I  don't  do  any  of  that  stuff.  They  have  rights  on  this   stuff,  you  know  now,  and  you  have  to  own  it  to  do  whatever   you  want  to  do  it.  I  don't  do  this  stuff.  It’s  owned.  You  have  to   have  a  right  to  it.   KB:   00:17:14   So  did  you  enjoy  like,  uh,  organizing  the  pageants  and  being  a   part  of  that?   CW:   00:17:21   Um-­‐hmm.  It  was  fun.  It  was  really,  really  fun  to  do  that  with  the   people.  Crazy  but  fun.  But  when  I  organized  it,  it  was  just  one   thing.  Miss  10th  Street  or  Miss  M  or  you  was  Miss  whoever  you   wanted  to  be  back  then,  and  you  just  dressed  up  in  a  gown  and  I   had  swimming  suit  back  then.  And  can  you  imagine  that?  But   [laughs],  but  that's  the  way  I  did  it,  and  had  a  good  turnout,  and   it  was  really,  really  nice.  Real  good.     KB:   00:17:54   So,  uh,  let's  talk  about  kind  of  like  the  HIV  [AIDS  crisis],  a  kind  of   uprising  of  that.  And  how  did  that  touch  Roanoke  or  touch  you   personally?     CW:   00:18:09   Well,  it  touched  me  personally,  but,  I,  you  know,  I  like  the  things   that  people  do  for  it.  And  I  do  shows  for  raising  money  for  it  and   stuff  like  that.  I  do  do  that.  I  know  quite  a  few  people  that’s  HIV   [positive].  But,  I’m  concerned  about  it,  I  really  am  concerned   about  it.  And  if  there’s  anything  that  I  can…  if  they  would  ask   me  to,  you  know,  I  would  do  it,  but  you  know,  people  these   days  they’re  so,  uh,  you  know,  like  they  got  the  ownership  of   everything.  If  you  try  to  organize  something  for,  they'll  knock   you  down  from  it.  So  I  just  sit  back  and  just  wait  on…     KB:   00:18:51   Yeah,  What  about  like  back  when  it  first  began.  Was  it  big  in   Roanoke?  like  friends  of  yours?     CW:   00:19:02   I  wouldn't  say  it  was  big,  but  it  was  known,  and  you  know,  you   know  people.  But  it  wasn't...  People  really  didn't  pay  any   attention  to.  I  mean  they  paid  attention  to  it,  but  it's  not  like   now.  It's  not  worldwide.  But  people,  they  paid  attention  to  it,   but  no,  it  wasn't  as  serious  as  it  is  now.  I  don't  think,  as  far  as  I   know.       KB:   00:19:30   OK.  So,  are  you  still,  uh,  at  this  time,  are  you  in  contact  with   your  family?  Do  you  visit?     CW:   00:19:39   Mm-­‐hmm.  My  sister  was  down  yesterday.  And  we  still  talk.  I  go   see  them,  they  come  see  me  and  spend  the  night,  and  so-­‐so.     9 �KB:   00:19:48   So,  uh,  when  you  got  involved  with  The  Park,  uh,  I  think  it   opened  in…     CW:   00:19:55   …[19]78  or  something  like  that.  Thirty-­‐four  years  ago.     KB:   00:20:00   Were  you  performing  when  it  began?  [CW  affirms.]  So  was  it   just  like  the  impersonations  and  things  like  that?   CW:   00:20:09   Mm-­‐hmm.  Sure  was.     KB:   00:20:10   What  about  the  other  people  who  were  like  performing  at  the   time?  Can  you  tell  me  a  bit  about  like  what  was  it  like  or  like,   um,  do  you  still  know  the  people?     CW:   00:20:23   Do  I  still  do  any  other  people?  Yeah,  I'm  not  as  active  in  it  now   than  I  was  back  then.  Back  then,  you  turn  on  the  light,  I  was  in   front  of  it,  you  know,  I  was  there  big  time  in  front  of  the   spotlight.  But  now  since  the  bars  closed…  not  closed  but  took   over  by  another.  I  don't  really  deal  with  it  too  much.  I  did  a   show  at  the  Jefferson  [Center]  last  month,  and  then  Miss  Gay   Roanoke  is  coming  up  in  June  or  July  the  thirtieth  and  I  will   participate  in  that,  but  really  I  don't  really  go  to  The  Park.  Like  I   used  to.  34  years.  I've  worked  there  34  years.  Yup,  good   memories  [laughs].   KB:   00:21:15   So  just  looking  at  like  the  gay  scene  and  like  areas  that  were  gay   areas  back  then,  like  the  seventies,  eighties,  did  you  have  any   issues  with  like  racial  issues?  Like  gay  spaces  that  weren't   allowed  for  people  of  color  or  things  like  that?  or  just  like   discrimination…?   CW:   00:21:39   No.  Never.  Never.  Even  in  West  Virginia  where  I’m  from,  never.  I   never  had  anything  racial.  You  know,  People  gonna  call  you   names  off  and  on,  but  never  a  big  thing  like  that.  No,  never.  I   never  experienced,  you  know,  racial  stuff.  Never  have.     KB:   00:22:00   So  you  were  the  first  black  Miss  Gay  Roanoke.  Were  there  other   people  of  color  like  performing  and  things?  Like  how  was  the   ratio?  Like  where  there  just  a  few  black  people  and  like   predominantly  white  or  like…?     CW:   00:22:17   When  I  started  with  just,  I  think  I  was  the  only  one  back  then.   And  then  as  it  progressed,  like  the  Horoscope,  the  Horoscope   was  the  one  that  really  had  a  lot  of  blacks  in  it.  So  a  lot  of  blacks   was  in  it  then.  It's  still  a  lot  of  blacks  in  it  now,  but  it's   prominently  more  white  girls.  White  girls,  boys,  girls...  Um,  I   don't  know  why,  but  in  the  South,  down  in  like  North  Carolina   10 �and  places  like  that,  it's  real,  you  know,  blacks,  you  know,  that's   good  down  that  a  way.  But  we  still  have  em  here  but  they   [laugh]…  I  don't  know  why.  But  I  think  it's  the  interview  thing,   the  interview  thing,  I  think  they're  [Black  performers]  not  good   at  interview,  which  I'm  not  good  at  interview.  When  I  did  Miss   Virginia,  I  was  horrible.  I  don't  know  how  to  talk  real  good,  you   know.  But  I  think  that's  why  a  lot  of  them  don't.  The  interview   thing.  But  when  it  comes  to  talent,  oh  yeah.  You  better  be   prepared.  I've  entertained  with  the  Miss  Gay  Roanokes  and   Miss  Americas.  I’ve  entertained  with  them  and  everything.  So,   I’m  up  there  pretty  good.  But  not  now.  Was  up.  Let  me  put  it   like  that.  Was  up  there.     KB:   00:23:53   So  you're  one  of  the  first…  the  first  black  Miss  Gay  Roanoke.   Would  you  think  of  that  as  like  a  movement  maybe?  Like,  did   people  really  respect  that  or  was  that  like,  you  know,  “wow,  OK,   we're  making  it.”  Since  there  weren't  many  people  of  color  in   the  field  at  the  time?     CW:   00:24:15   Well,  let’s  see.  Go  back  to  Trade  Winds  again,  not  very  many   blacks  came  to  Trade  Winds  back  then.  And  you  had  a  few,  but   not  very  many.  And  the  ones  that  really  did  accepted  me  when  I   first  came  here  was  the  white  people,  they,  you  know,  they   came  to  my  side.  The  black  people,  the  black  girls,  they  used  to   shun,  you  know,  they  just  wouldn't  talk  to  me,  wouldn’t  deal   with  me  or  no  kind  of  way.  I  don't  know  why.  I  don't  consider   myself  any  other  way  but  me.  They  wouldn't  talk  to  me  or   anything.  So  I  was  predominantly…  mostly  the  white  girls  took   me  and  they  helped  me  out  a  lot.     KB:   00:24:57   Did  that  change  after  you  won…?     CW:   00:24:59   Oh,  yeah,  after  I  won  and  stuff  like  that.  And  then  later  like   Horoscope  days,  we  came  together,  they  start  talking  to  you,   you  know  everybody  start  talking  to  me.  And  after  I  had  won   and  stuff  like  that,  they,  you  know,  they  showed  me,  you  know,   that  I  was  welcome.  I  guess  it  was  scared  I  was  going  to  take  the   boyfriend  or  girlfriend,  but  they  just  wouldn't  have  anything  to   do  with  me.  I  don't  know  why.  I  went  on  with  life.     KB:   00:25:32   So  now  a  few  of  the  people  that  we've  spoken  to  that  kind  of   like  talk  about  you  as  like,  you  know,  Miss  Carolyn,  she's  a   legend  [laughs].  What  do  you  think  about  that?  Do  you  get  that   a  lot?     CW:   00:25:44   Used  to.  Used  to.  But  now  that  I'm  not  into  the  scene  like  I  used   to  be.  Um,  I  loved  it,  you  know.  And  I  treated  everybody  the   same.  I  didn't  see  any  difference  in  skin  tone  or  what  you  was,   11 �I’m  just  that.  I'm  just  me,  you  know,  I  accept  you  as  you  are.   Whatever  you  are,  you  are.  That’s  how  I  look  at  that.  I  don't   knock  you  for  being  a  murderer.  I  don’t  knock  you  for  being  a   rapist.  I  don’t  knock  you  for  being  gay.  I  don’t  knock  you  for   being  straight.  I'm  just.  What  does  your  life…  deal  with  your  life   first.  That's  just  what  I  am.     KB:   00:26:21   Okay.  So  walk  me  through  the  eighties.  What's  going  on?  More   friends?  The  scene?  Family?  Relationships?   CW:   00:26:30   Well,  I  did  a  relationship.  I  was  dating  a  guy  and  we  were   together  for  maybe  like  about  a  year  and  a  half  and  then  he   went  on  about  his  business  and  I  about  mine.  I'm  happy.  I'm   content.  I  don't  have  any  other  relationship.  I  have,  and  I've   been  without  one  for  about  17,  18  years  now.  I  haven't  had  a   relationship  and  I'm  happy.  Very  happy.  I  wish  I  had  one   [laughs].  I  get  sometimes…  “God,  I  wish  I  had  a  boyfriend,”  and  I   go  “No,  no,  I'm  too  happy.”  Did  never  have  bad,  bad  ones,  but,   you  know,  you  have  your  ups  and  downs.  I  guess  he  went  on   about  his  business.  I  went  on  about  mine.       KB:   00:27:29   Was  the  dating  scene  like  good,  like,  in  your  youth?     CW:   00:27:32   Oh  yeah,  back  in  the  times,  very  good.  Uh,  I  had  about  five   boyfriends  at  one  time  [laughs].  Trust  me,  I  had  about  five   boyfriends  at  one  time.  I  don't  know  how  I  did  it,  but  uh,  I  did  it,   you  know,  and  it  was  fun.  But,  I  wound  up  with  one  and  that's   the  one  I  had.  The  dating  scene  was  pretty  good  but  down  the…   the  City  Market  downtown,  that's  where  we  used  to  hang  out   somewhere  down  in  that  area  in  the  City  Market  downtown,   and  then  they  ran  us  from  down  there.  They  said  “get  out,”  and   I  left  [laughs].   KB:   00:28:16   So  like  did  you  mostly  date  people  within  the  community  or....?     CW:   00:28:21   Both.  I  had  a  guy,  I  dated  a  guy  from  North  Carolina  for  about   maybe  a  year,  about  a  year.  I  think  I  dated  him  for  about  a  year   and  I  think  that's  the  only  one  that  I  dated  from  out  of  town.   And  the  rest  were  from  around  here  in  Lynchburg  and  stuff  like   that.     KB:   00:28:45   So  were  you  working  back  then?     CW:   00:28:46   Mm-­‐hmm.  Yeah.  I  was  working  at  Woolworth's.  And  then  I   worked  at  Lewis  Gale.  Then  I  worked  at  Camelot  Nursing  Home,   but  it's  called  something  else  now.  Then  I  worked  at  The  Park.   Then  I  worked  at  Hollins.    This  assisted  living  [business  in]   12 �Hollins.  Assisted  living.  Yeah.  Hollins  Manor.  That’s  what  the   name  is.  Then  North  Roanoke  Assisted  Living.  I  deal  with  mental   and  physically  handicapped  people  and  stuff  like  that.     KB:   00:29:28   So  you're  a  nurse?     CW:   00:29:29   No,  I'm  director  of  housekeeping,  but  I  do  have  a  DCA  license   where  I  can  do  nursing.  It’s  just,  it's  a  certificate.  It’s  not  a   license.  It’s  like  a  nursing  assistant.  But  they  call  them  direct   care  assistant,  that's  what  they  do  there.     KB:   00:29:52   So  you  mentioned  before  that  you  went  down  to  Norfolk,   Virginia  and  you  won  some  titles.  So  what  titles  did  you  win   there?     CW:   00:30:00   I  just…  Best  Out  of  Town  Actor  or  Entertainer  …  Best  Out  of   Town  Entertainer.  And,  it  was  a  good  experience.  Those  people   down  there,  they  do,  they  were  hard  to  please,  very  hard  to   please,  but  I  won  it  and  I  did  a  pageant  down  there  and  I  didn’t   win  that.  Back  in  the  days,  but  it  was  interesting  though.     KB:   00:30:27   Did  you  notice  a  big  difference  in  the  gay  scene  in  Roanoke  and   then  in  Norfolk?     CW:   00:30:32   Yes.  In  Norfolk  they  were  more  bonded,  you  know,  that  were   more  in  a  bit  more  bonded  than  here,  more  capable  people.  But   it  was  more  bonded  to  me,  I  think.   KB:   00:30:46   In  what  way?   CW:   00:30:47   They  were  together.  They  weren't  one  side  this  side,  you  know,   this  side  over  here  and  this  side  over  there.  They  were,  all  the   people  just  bonded  together.  Were  friendly  with  each  other,  or   you  know,  stuff  like  that.  It  was  interesting.     KB:   00:31:00   Did  you  travel  a  lot  for…  entertaining?     CW:   00:31:03   I  have.  I  did  North  Carolina,  and  we  did  one  in  D.C.,  a  show  in   D.C.,  um,  and  I  think  that  was  it.  D.C.,  North  Carolina,  and  West   Virginia.  Did  West  Virginia,  and  that  was  it.  I  loved  it.  I  love   traveling,  you  know.     KB:   00:31:26   So  were  these  like,  um,  did  they  request  you  to  come?  Like  they   wanted  you  to  come?     CW:   00:31:30   They  would  invite  me.  They  would  invite  me  to  come.  They   invited  me  to  do  Miss  North  Carolina  pageant.  I’m  the  judge.   13 �That  was  hard.  It  was…  when  the  gown,  the  talent,  all  this  stuff   you  have  to,  you  know,  judge.  And  that  was  a  hard  pageant  to   do  because  those  girls,  they  come  to  work.  Very  professional.     KB:   00:32:01   You  enjoyed  it?   CW:   00:32:02   Oh,  yeah.  I  loved  it.  And  they’re  a  good  community,  too.  Their   gay  community  is  real  good.     KB:   00:32:09   So  what's  your  favorite  of  those  pageants  with  the  different   things  going  on?  What  was  your  favorite,  like  maybe  category  or   favorite  aspects?     CW:   00:32:17   I  love  gown.  I  love  gown.  I  was  never  good  at  interview,   horrible.  But  gown  and  talent.  I  was  pretty  good  and  I  got  real   high  scores  for  that.     KB:   00:32:30   So  there's  gown,  interview?  Was  there  swimsuit  at  that  time?   CW:   00:32:33   No,  no..  Back  when  I  did  it,  it  was,  but  nowadays,  nuh-­‐uh.  Now   they  do  have  a  swimsuit  in  like  Miss  Continental.  Those  are   what  girls  that  have  the  breasts  and  stuff  like  that.  They  do  do   swimsuit  and  stuff,  but  they  are  so  beautiful.  I  mean  one   walking  there  you  wouldn't  even  know  it.  That’s  how  pretty   they  are.  But  these  girls  pay  a  lot  of  money,  too,  for  the  cheeks   and  the  hair.  And  it's  expensive.  It  really  is.    Dressing  is  very   expensive.  You  would  not  believe  how  expensive  it  is.  Back  to   [the]  Miss  America  thing.  Those  girls,  they  pay  900  dollars  for  a   pair  of  shoes,  thousands  of  dollars  for  a  gown.  Get  their  hair   done  and  all  that.  It's  very  expensive.  If  you  want  to  win,  if  you   want  to  win,  but  you  got  to,  you  got  to  have  that.       00:33:34   And  I  don’t  have  it  to  enter  that  pageant.  I  would  never  want  to   go.  It's  a  week-­‐long.  No.  They  had  it  in  North  Carolina,  in   Charlotte.  And,  it  goes  on  and  on  and  on.  One  day  you  might   have  gown,  next  day  you  might  have  interview,  next  day  you   might  have  talent.  I  mean,  you're  constantly  going.  I  mean,  it,  it,   when  you  get  back  from  it,  you  could  say  that  you're  wore  out   from  it.  I  have  a  friend  who  went  to  North  Carolina  and  when   they  came  back  they're  like,  boom  [exhausted].  They  were  like   drained.  I  mean  it's  something.  You  go,  you  have  to  go.  It’s  all   about  the  money,  though,  I  think.     KB:   00:34:21   Is  it  that  the  girl  is  very  competitive  with  one  another  or  are   they  more  like,  you  know,  competitively  in  the  moment?  And   then  like  when  they  go  back  stage…?     14 �CW:   00:34:30   I  think,  in  the  moment.  I  think  they're  competitive  in  the   moment,  you  know.  They  all  try  to  beat  each  other,  and  you   know,  when  you're  in  competition,  you're  in  competition.  You   got  to  do  it.  But  a  lot  of  them  say,  “well,  you're  not  my  friend.   Right?”  So  you're  just  a  competitive  person  like  I  am.  And  they   just  go  on  about  it.    Yeah,  it's  very  competitive.  Got  to  be  on   your  tip  toes.     KB:   00:34:54   So  what  do  they  win?  What  do  you  get  like,  other  than  like  the   title?   CW:   00:34:58   um,  you  get  a…  like  if  you’re  a  doctor,  if  you  win  Miss  America,   you’re  not  a  doctor.  There  is  no  more  doctor  until  that  year  is   up.  You  can't  do  anything  like  if  you're  a  dancer  or  whatever,   whatever,  when  you  become  Miss  America,  you're  Miss   America.  You  are  not  a  doctor,  you're  not  a  nurse,  you're  not  a   nothing.  You  completely,  your  life  is  Miss  Gay  America.  That’s   how  they  run  it.  You  have  to  put  everything  aside.   KB:   00:35:30   So  they  get  like  money…?     CW:   00:35:31   …They  get  big  money  and  you  get  booked,  like  if  they  have  a   pageant  here,  you  have  to  be  the  branch  of  Miss  America.  Like  if   they  have  Miss  Virginia  America  for  here.  Miss  Gay  America  has   to  be  here  or  somebody  to  represent  her.  Has  to  be  at  that   pageant.  When  you  travel,  you  go  from  place  to  place,  you   know.  But  I  just  can't  do  that.  I  can't  have  my  face  shaved  every   night  [laughs].  Oh  God,  can  you  imagine  that?  The  hair  on  your   body,  which  I'm  not  hairy  but  the  hair  on  your  body  and  stuff.   God.  But  yeah,  just  don't  see  it.  And  you  live  out  of  a  suitcase.   But  it's  a  big  thing.  It’s  a  big  thing.       KB:   00:36:17   So  you  mentioned  that,  uh,  some  pageants  have  swimsuit,  but   those  are  the  people  who  have  like  breasts  and  things  like  that.   So  was  there  like  a  big  difference  between  like  pageants  for  like   people  who  have  done  surgeries  and  things  and  then  those  who   didn't?     CW:   00:36:35   Oh,  it’s  definitely  a  big,  you  know,  big…  well,  it's  the  look  of  it.   So,  Miss  America  pageant.  You  can't  have  breasts.  You  can  have   things  done  above  the  neck,  but  anything  below,  like  hips,  you   can’t  do.  Miss  Continental,  or  something  like  that,  you  can  have   anything  you  want.  Miss  America,  they  say  “you’re  a  man  first”   [laughs]…  which  I  don't…  Why  are  you  dressing  like  a  woman  if   you're  wanting  to  be  a  mister?  I  don't  get  that.  That's  the  way   they  judge  you  on.  Man  first;  woman  last.  Yeah,  it's  a…  I  don't   know  [laughs].   15 �KB:   00:37:30   So  have  these  like  pageants  and  things  like  they  were  pretty,   like  you  said  that  you  were  like  the  first,  you  know,  steam   rolling.  So  these  must  have  gotten  pretty  big  like  over,  like,  over   the  years,  how  do  you  feel  about  that.  Are  they  televised?  Are   they  pretty  well  attended  and  like,  save  the  date,  you  know?   CW:   00:37:55   Well,  I  don’t  think  they’re  televised.  They  do  film  them  and  stuff   like  that,  but  you  can  buy…  but  from  what  I  understand  you  can   buy  the  movie,  the  pageants,  you  have  to,  you  can  buy  them.   But  I  don't  think  they're  televised  and  sometimes  they  have  like   a  Miss  America  on  a  show  or  something  like  that.  Sometimes   they  do  do  that.  But,  the  thing  with  Miss  Roanoke  pageant,  I   don't  understand  why  they  do  interview.  Cause  you're  not  on   TV,  they  don't  offer  anything  like  that.  Why  are  you  doing  an   interview?  Do  a  gown  and  a  talent  and  leave  it  alone  [laughs].       KB   00:38:38   So  you  said  in  West  Virginia  you  were  dressing,  so  did  you  have   mentors  or  people  who  like  kind  of  like  showed  you  the  ropes?   Did  you  eventually  start  wearing  makeup  and  things  like  that?   CW:   00:38:48   When  I  came  here,  when  I  came  to  Roanoke,  I  started  doing  the   makeup  thing.  But  my  best  friend  in  West  Virginia,  they  started   showing  me  things,  you  know,  like  that.  My  Dad  he  would   always  call  him  a  “sissy.”  …  “that  sissy!  “Sissy  boy,”  and  stuff  like   that.  And  that  was  my  best  friend,  and  he  would  always  get  on   me  for  that.  But  he  showed  me—my  friend  showed  me—not   the  make  up,  just  the  putting  on  the  dress  and  stuff  like  that,   and  wig  and  stuff,  but  we  never  did  make  up,  was  one  thing  we   never  did.  Make  up.     KB:   00:39:24   And  people  were  like  okay  with  you  like  wearing  dresses  and   things?   CW:   00:39:30   Well  they  never  said.  We  always  did  it  at  nighttime.  Always  did.   KB:   00:39:35   So  it  wasn’t  like  going  to  school?   CW:   00:39:37   Oh  God  no.  I’m  alive  right  now.  Back  then  they  would  have   killed  me.  They  would  have  probably  stoned  me  [laughs].  No  I   never  did  do  that.  But  they  knew  I  was  gay  in  school.  I  tried  out   for  cheerleader.  I  made  cheerleader,  but  we  integrated  that   next  year.  So  I  didn't  get  to  do  cheer,  and  I  was  always  in  the   band.    I  always  did  the  band  thing.  But  no…  they  paid  me  no   attention  really.     KB:   00:40:04   So  was  it  like  a  “don't  talk  about  it”  and  like  “we  know,  but  you   don't  talk  about  it”  or  like…?     16 �CW:   00:40:11   I  don't  think  they  really  paid  any  attention.  Yeah,  I  really  don't   think,  you  know,  they  will  see  you  and  say  “sissy”  or  something   like  that  to  you.  And  that  would  be  it,  you  know,  they  never   made  a  big  deal  out  of  it.  They  never  bothered  me  at  all  or   anything  like  that.     KB:   00:40:25   So  no  like  bullying  or  anything  like  that?     CW:   00:40:26   No,  oh  God,  no.  Like  I  said,  I  had  a  mean  sister.  She  was  mean,   and  she  would  fight  a  bear.  She  was  mean.  But  she  didn't  let   nobody  bother  me.  She  next  to  me.  I’m  next  to  the  youngest,  so   my  brother  didn't  mean  to  her  and  she  was  really,  really  mean.     It  didn't  bother  me.     KB:   00:40:52   Are  you  and  your  brother  like  pretty  close?     CW:   00:40:54   We're  pretty  close.  My  whole  family  is.  We  pretty  much  close.  I   have  a  family  reunions  here  every  year.  They  come  here  and   have  people,  nieces,  nephews,  everybody  accepts  me.  Nobody   bothers  me...  At  least  that  I  know  of.  Nobody's  saying  things   behind  my  back.  Yeah,  we  get  along  real  good.    Yeah,  they  don't   bother  me,  cause  they  know  I’d  cut  them  off.       00:41:21   I’m  good  at  not  speaking  to  you.  Oh  Lord,  I  can  ignore  you.  I   hate  to  be  like  it,  but  I'm  like  that,  you  know.  I'll  cut  you  off  in  a   minute.  This  could  be  on  fire.  You  stand  there  in  the  window.  I’d   rather  go  through  the  fire  than  speak  to  you,  if  I’m  mad  at  you.   That’s  how  I  am.  I’m  sort  of  hard  to  forgive,  you  know,  but   basically  I  consider  myself  a  very,  very  nice  person.     KB:   00:41:55   So  you  were  very  active  in  the  community  here  in  Roanoke.  So   were  you  pretty  active  like  in  high  school?  Were  you  in  a  lot  of   clubs?  You  say  you  tried  out  for  cheerleading.     CW:   00:42:06   Band.  Well,  I  did  cheerleading,  I  went  out  and  made  it,  but,  no   just  band  was  the  only  thing  that  I  was  active  in  school.  Never   did  drama  or  nothing  like  that,  you  know.  I  don’t  want  to  fool   with  that  stuff.     KB:   00:42:22   Did  you  have  many  friends  or  just  like  a  few  friends?     CW:   00:42:24   I  had  friends,  yeah.  The  girls  liked  me,  you  know,  the  girls  we   got  alone  with  the  boys  so-­‐so.  But  I  had  quite  many  friends  in   high  school.  Gay  friends.     KB:   00:42:33   Did  you  date  in  high  school?     17 �CW:   00:42:35   No.  No,  no  [laughs].  I'm  still  alive,  remember?  No,  no,  I  didn't.   No,  um-­‐mmm.  I  start  dating  when  I  came  here.     KB:   00:42:50   So  after  you  graduated  high  school,  but  before  you  moved  here,   were  you  working?  Did  you  go  to  college  or  anything?     CW:   00:42:57   No,  I  didn’t  go  to  college.  No,  I  worked.  What  was  the  question   again?  [laughs]     KB:   00:43:06   Where  were  you?  LIke  what  was  going  on  between  high  school,   graduating  high  school,  before  moving  to  Roanoke?     CW:   00:43:14   Oh,  I  worked.  When  I  finished  school,  I  went  to  work  for  the   city.  I  was  a  water  and  sewage  plant  reader.  I'm  reading  the   meters,  water  meters,  and  then  I  worked  at  the  sewage  plant  at   nighttime,  uh,  taking  care  of  the,  you  know,  water.  Testing  the   water  and  stuff  like  that  at  the  water  plant.  So  I  did  that  for   about  a  year,  about  a  year,  and  then  I  moved  to  Roanoke.  But   when  I  was  in  school,  I  worked.  I  left  home  at  15.  Me  and  my   father  didn't  get  along  so  I  ran  away  from  home.  And  um,  this   lady  in  the  community  took  care  of  me,  and  put  me  through   school  and  everything.  And  so  I  was  working  at  Kroger  at  the   time  when  I  left  home,  Kroger's.  I  worked  there  three,  three   years.  Put  myself  through  high  school  and  everything.     KB:   00:44:08   That's  really  nice.  This  lady  in  the  community.  Like,  did  you   know  her  well  before?     CW:   00:44:15   I  knew  her.  She  had  six  boys  and  she  took  me  in.  She  took  me  in   and  treated  me  better  than  she  treated  her  sons,  but  she   treated  me  real  well  and  I  admire  her  for  that.  She  passed,  she   passed  away,  but  yeah,  I  left  home.  Got  myself  together.     00:44:36   I  wouldn’t  speak  to  my  father.  Like  I  was  on  that  speaking  diet.   He  would  be  like,  if  he  was,  I  had  to  catch  the  bus,  he  would  be   down  in  the  roadway.  I  would  go  all  the  way  up  on  the  hill   around  the  mountain…  and  I  just,  I  wouldn't  speak  to  [him].  I   didn’t  speak  to  him  for  probably  four,  five  years  maybe.  I  would   not  speak  to  him  period.  Wouldn’t  even  go  past  him  and  then   when  I  went  home  from  here,  I  went  home,  and  I  used  to  go   around  and  see  her  back  in  the  community.  The  lady,  she  said,   you  know  what  the  Bible  say,  “honor  your  mother  and  your   father.”  I  said  “yes  mam.”  So  I  went  in,  and,  you  know,  we  start   talking.  Then  when  I  would  go  home  I  would  go  see  him.  I  start   see  him,  take  him  little  gifts  and  stuff  like  that,  and  dealing  with   the  house  fire.  Got  burned  up..  But  we  finally  buried  the  hatchet   [laughs].       18 �KB:   00:45:37   So  was  it  hard  on  the  rest  of  the  family?  Like  when  you  guys   weren't  talking?     CW:   00:45:42   I  don't  think  they  really….  Well  my  baby  sister  knew  we  weren’t   talking.  But  I  don't  think  the  rest  of  the  family  knew  I  didn't  have   anything  to  say  to  him.  He  pampered  my  brother  more  than  he   would…  He  would  buy  him  a  car  and  he  never  bought  me   anything.    So  I  just  said,  “OK,  I'm  gone,  bye.”     KB:   00:46:07   How  did  they  feel  about  you  leaving  the  house?  Like  at  such  a   young  age.     CW:   00:46:12   The  only  one  that  was  there  was  my  younger  brother.  He  was   the  only  one  there.  He  was  the  only  one  left  in  the  home.  All  my   sisters  had  left,  and  he  was  the  only  one  there.  Me  and  him  was   the  only  one  there.  And  so  when  my  father  got  into  a  big  fuss,  I   left.  I  said,  “you  ain't  gonna  treat  me  no  more  like  you  treat…”   No.  I  left  immediately.     KB:   00:46:39   So,  did  they,  your  sister  and  your  older  brother,  were  they  still   in  the  state  or  did  they  go?     CW:   00:46:47   Younger  [brother].  They  were  still  here.  Well,  I  was  always  was   there  until  uh,  my  sister  came  here,  my  baby—the  one  that  took   up  for  me—she  came  here  and  my  older  sister,  she  followed  her   here  and  I  still  have  a  sister  in  West  Virginia.  She's  married  and   that’s  the  only  one  left  out  there.     KB:   00:47:07   So  you  guys  seem  pretty  close.  They  come  visit  you  and  you  go   there?  Have  they  been  to  any  of  your  shows?  Have  you  been  to   any  of  them?     CW:   00:47:18   No.  [laughs]  My  sister  has.  My  baby  sister  has,  and  my  brother   has.     KB:   00:47:24   Would  did  they  think  about  it?     CW:   00:47:25   They  don't  pay  it  no  mind.  They  call  me  Carolyn.     KB:   00:47:28   Did  they  enjoy  the  shows?   CW:   00:47:30   Oh  yeah.  Definitely  yeah.  They  were  proud  of  me.  [laughs]   KB:   00:47:37   Were  you  happy  to  have  them  there?  Or  nervous  about  what   they  would  think?   19 �CW:   00:47:40   No,  I'm  not  a  nervous  person.  Nothing  bothers  me.  My  sister   told  me.  She  said,  “you  know  what?  Nothing  bothers  you.”  I  say   “no.”  Before  you…  runs  up.  People  that  approach  gives  you  a   heart  attack,  blah  blah  blah.  Just  say  it's  done  and  it's  over  with.   I'm  not  a  nervous  type  person.  Never.  Never.  If  it  had…   whatever  day  it  happens,  it  happens,  and  that's…  I  accept  it.     KB:   00:48:08   So  you  said  your  father  was  in  a  fire?  Is  that  when  he  died?   CW:   00:48:12   Uh-­‐huh.  He  passed  away.  What  he  died  of.  The  community…  the   fire  was  going  up  over  the  ground.  It  went  from  another  house.   Three  houses.  Did  their  house  and  then  it  did  the  lady  next  to   him  houses  and  then  it  got  hit  to  his  house.  And,  and  I  guess,  I   guess  it  was  gas  and  it  blew  his  house  up.  And  they  say  he  was   trying  to  get  out  and  he  couldn't  get  out  of  it  and  [it]  killed  him.   Burned  the  whole  house  down.  Left  me  nothing.  [laughs].  I’m   just  kidding.   KB:   00:48:45   So  you  said  you  guys  reconciled  prior  to  his  death?     CW:   00:48:50   Yeah,  we  got  together  and  I  started,  you  know,  started  going  to   see  him  and  stuff  like  it.  I  think  he  finally  found  out  that  I  am   who  I  am  and  I'm  not  going  to  change  and  accepted  it.  I  guess   he  accepted.  I’m  almost  sure  he  did.  Because  I  would  go  back   and  look  like  something  from  the  city.  Not  nothing  from  the   country.  It  was  so  fun  to  see  the…  Well,  my  whole  appearance   had  changed.  Um,  so,  uh,  I  guess  he  found  out  that  I  am  going   to  be  me  no  matter  what.  I'm  glad  I  buried  that  hatchet  with   him.  I  really,  really  am.     KB:   00:49:35   So  uh,  your  mom,  she  died  after  him  or…?     CW:   00:49:41   No,  she  passed  away  in  [19]67?  I  think.  I  was  15  when  she   passed.     KB:   00:49:48   So  you  were  pretty  young.  So  this  is  before  you  moved  out.     CW:   00:49:50   Oh,  yeah,  this  was  before.  She  was  still  alive.  And  I  think  I  left   because  she  had  passed  away,  you  know.  Cause  she  always  took   care  for  me.  You  know,  I  was  a  mama's  boy.  Thank  God.  And  uh,   I  was  her  little  prince.  So  I  will  put  her  dresses  on  and  run   around  the  house  while  my  daddy  was  at  work.  She  said,  “boy,   here  comes  your  daddy,  you  better  get  out  of  that  dress!”  I  will   fly  and  take  off  the  dress  and  don’t  want  to  hurt.  So  she  always   said.  But  I  was,  I  guess,  her  little  princess  [laughs].  Yeah,  she,   she  accepted  me  very  well,  but  I  was  still  young,  too.  But  she   accepted  me  very  well.  I'd  love  for  her  to  be  here  to  see  what   20 �I've  accomplished  in,  you  know,  my  lifestyle,  you  know.  I  would   love  to…  well  him,  too,  my  daddy,  too.  But  I  was  a  mama's  boy.   KB:   00:50:44   Did  he  ever  like  find  out  about  the  dresses?     CW:   00:50:50   No.  Absolutely  not.  No.  [laughs]  I  had  that  dress  off.  One,  two,   three  and  it  was  off.  But  of  course  it  was  big.  No,  you  know  how   women  would  dress  in  those  fairytale[?]  dresses?     KB:   00:51:09   So  were  they  her  dresses  or  your  sister’s  dresses?   CWL   00:51:12   They  was  her  dresses.     KB:   00:51:20   What  do  you  think  if  she  had  seen  you  winning  Miss  Gay   Roanoke?     CW:   00:51:23   I  think  she  would  be  proud.  I  think  she  would...  I  think  she   would  say  “I  raised  a  very  well  mannered  person,”  you  know,   “son,”  or  whatever  she  would  have  called  me.  I  think  she  would   be  very  proud  of  me  and  I  think  that  my  daddy  would,  too.  I   think  he  would  have  been  proud  to…  cause  I  planned  to  bring   him  to  my  house  and  everything  before  he  passed.  But  I  think   he  would  have  been  proud,  too.  I  think  he  really,  really  would.     KB:   00:51:55   OK.  So  let's  bring  it  more  recent.  So  how  do  you  feel  about  like,   you  know,  the  more  recent  transgender  movement  and  things   like  that?   CW:   00:52:09   I’m  for  it,  you  know.  If  a  person  wants  to  do  that.  You  know,  I'm   with  it.  I'm,  you  know,  for  transgender  and  stuff  like  that.  I  have   several  friends  that’s  going  through  the  transgender  thing  and   I’m  for  it  all  the  way.  I  have  no  problem  with  it.  Now,  it's  not  for   me.  If  I  was  20  years  or  40  years  younger  than  what  I  am,  I   would  be  going  through  it,  too.  But  right  now  it's  not  the  thing   for  me.  But  I  admire  the  people  that  do  that.  That’s  on  them.  I   have  been  to  some  of  the  in-­‐service  they  have  over  at  the   church,  of  the  gay  church  [Metropolitan  Community  Church?].  I   go  to  that.  I  try  supporting  the  best  way  I  can.  But  yeah,  it’s  no   problem  to  me.  I’m  happy  for  them.  If  there’s  anything  I  can  do   for  them,  let  me  know.     KB:   00:53:09   What  about  like,  uh,  I  know  there's  been  a  lot  of  controversy   and  push  back  about  like  transgender  kids  and  them  wanting  to   either  be  on  testosterone  or  things  like  that.  How  do  you  feel   about  that?     21 �CW:   00:53:23   I'm  for  it.  I'm  for  that,  too.  I  mean  everybody  has  a  way  to  live   their  life  and  if  they  want  to  leave  it  that  away,  I’m  for  it,  you   know.  But  I  think  it  should  be  at  a  certain  age,  you  know.  I  think   once  you  hit  maybe  10  or  12,  I  think  you  should  know  what  you   want  to  be.  And  that  mess  about  “Oh,  he'll  grow  out  of  it  and   she'll  grow  out  of  it.”  It  ain't  for  me.  I  think  either  you're  born   gay  or…  not  born  gay…  or  I  don't  think  you  have  to  grow  into  it.  I   don't  think  that.  I  don't  think  anybody  can  convince  me  to  be   gay.  Do  you?  What  do  you  think  about  that?  I’m  questioning   you  now.  [laughs]  Bu  yeah,  I  think  it's  already  in  you,  really.  I   really  do.  I  think  it's  already  in  you  and  I  don't  know  if  you  can   change  from  that.  I  really  don't  know.  I  don’t  know  if  you  can   change,  you  know,  go  back  into  the  straight  thing.  I  think  a  lot  of   people  will  try  to  and  they  always  bounce  back  into  it,  you   know,  get  married,  have  children  and  everything  like  that,  and   always  people  around  the  corner  you  see  them  going  where   they  ain't  supposed  to.  I’m  I  right  or  wrong?  [laughs]     KB:   00:54:49   So,  how  have  you  been  feeling  with  the  recent  change  in   administration?  And  I  know  like  there's  a  lot  of  progress  under   the,  you  know,  President  Obama.  How  have  you  been  feeling   about  this  new  [administration],  the  last  few  years?     CW:   00:55:10   I’ve  accepted  it.  I’ve  learned  to  accept  it.  I’m  for  it.  I  like  the  way   he  changed  the  movement  and  whatever,  whatever,  whatever.   I’m  for  that.     KB:   00:55:20   What  about  the  recent  like  regression  under  this  new   [president]?     CW:   00:55:26   Ahh  [sigh].  Do  we  have  a  president  now?  Do  we?  I  don’t  have  a   president  now.  No,  I'm  just  kidding  with  that,  but  I'm  not  into  a   lot  of  that  stuff  like  that,  you  know.  I'm  not  really…  What's  going   to  happen  is  gonna  happen,  you  know.  If  I  say,  if  I  go  to  Trump   tell  them  “blah  blah  blah  blah,  blah  blah.”  He  gonna  look  at  me,   and  say  “okay.”  And  gonna  pat  me  on  the  shoulder  and  say   “okay,  I'll  do  what  I  can.”  That’s  what  he's  gonna  do  to  me.  But   standing  out  with  signs  and  marching  and  all  this  stuff,  which   I'm  for  some  stuff,  I  think  it's  sort  of  useless  in  a  way.  I  really  do.   I  think  it's  sort  of  useless.  Certain  things  we  should  protest,  and   certain  things  we  shouldn’t,  you  know.  Rights?  Yeah.  We  should   protest  for  our  rights.  But  are  we  gonna  get  our  rights?     KB:   00:56:20   You  always  seem  very  like  for  things,  but  like,  you  know,  you   wouldn't  like  identify  like  as  an  activist  or  anything  like  that?   CW:   00:56:33   If  they  ask  me.  You  have  to  invite  me  to  things.  That’s  the  type   of  person  I  am  Like  getting  back  to  what  I  said  before,  people   22 �just  don't  like  you  stepping  on  their  parade,  you  know,  marching   in  the  parade  if  they  don't  ask  you.  So  you  have  to  ask  me  to.   “Will  you  do  a  show  for  me?”  I  would  do  it,  but  I  don't  like   stepping  on  people’s  toes,  you  know,  and  that's  the  way  it  is   now.  You  see  people  just  want  to  be  bragging  about  what   they're  gonna  do,  and  you  know,  they're  not  going  to  say,  “well,   Miss  Carolyn  helped  me  do  it.”  They  don't  want  that.  They  just   want  to  say  “I  did,”  and  I  just  don't  fool  with  that  stuff.  But  if   they  ask  me,  yeah,  I  will.  I’ll  help  them  out  in  the  best  way  I  can.     KB:   00:57:16   So  you're  not  really  active  in  like  the  performing  scene   anymore?  But  you  say  you  attend  services  at  the  gay  church?     CW:   00:57:28   Well,  yeah,  like…  They  had  a  thing  for  the  transgender  people   and  they  wanted  me  to  come  down  and  give  them,  put  my   input  in  it.  And  so  I  did.  But  yeah,  I'm  for  it.  You  just  have  to  ask   me.  But  if  you  don’t  ask  me…   KB:   00:57:43   So  what  are  you  up  to  these  days?     CW:   00:57:45   I  work  and  come  home.  I  stay  away  from  the  shooters.  I  don't   like  to  go  shop  anymore  [laughs].  I  don’t  like  to  go  to  the  movies   no  more.  I  don’t  like  to  do  nothing  no  more.  I'm  just  scared  of   everything.  I've  just  scared  of  everything.  I'm  scared,  well  not   scared,  I  wouldn't  say  scared,  but  I'm  leery  of  stuff  like  that.  And   I  think  just  because  you're  gay,  somebody’s  gonna  kill  you,  you   know,  just  for  going  shopping,  just…  [laughs].  I'm  just  leery  of  a   lot  of  stuff,  you  know,  like  school,  you  can't  go  to  school  and   have  a  decent  education  but  somebody  killing  you.  So  I  just   basically  just  stay  at  home  and  I  guess  if  I  get  invited  to   something  to  do  something,  I’ll  do  it.  But  I'm  not  out  there  like  I   used  to  be.  I  can,  you  know,  like  I  said,  I  spent  34  years  in  that   bar  and  that  was  enough.  I've  seen  everything.  I've  met  every   thing,  and  so  I'm  just,  “Yay.  I've  done  it  all!”  and  I'd  just  stay  at   home.  I’ll  stay  at  home.  That's  what  I  do.     KB:   00:58:50   Are  you  still  in  any  contact  with  like  friends  from…?   CW:   00:58:54   Oh  yeah.  I  still  have  my  friends  and  stuff  like  that.  I  still  do  that,   but  I'm  not  as  active  out  there  like  I  used  to  be  like  when  I   worked  at  the  bar,  I  met  God,  so  many  different  people.  You   name  it,  I  met  it.  You  know,  I  met  freaks,  fraus  and  fraus,  froos   and  froos,  frivs  and  frigs  [laugh].  I  mean,  everything,  you  know,   all  types  of  people  and  I  love  that!  I  really,  really  loved  that.  I   love  people.  I  really  do  love  working  with  people  and  not  um,  I   miss  being  that  way  but  I  would  never  do  it  again.  Not  for  34   years.  Nah,  I  quite  that  place  at  34  years  and  I  came  outside  and   I  stayed  outside  at  nighttime.  And  I  said,  “God,  is  this  what   23 �happens  at  night?”  I  said,  “God,  it  is  a  life  out  here!  Yay.”   [laughs]  But  I  liked  working  at  the  bar.  I  loved  it.  Like  I  said,  I   met  different  people,  different  styles,  different  races,  different   this,  different  that.  I  met  it.  Straight,  gay,  lesbians,  whatever,   whatever,  whatever.  I  met  it.  And  I  loved  it.  I  learned  a  lot  from   it,  you  know,  from  different  people.  I  wouldn't  want  to  do  it   again.  No.  Don't  you  ask  me  to  come  work  at  your  bar.  [laughs]   KB:   01:00:14   Sounds  like  you  lived  a  good  life.     CW:   01:00:17   I  have.  I  really,  really,  really  have.  It's  just  for  my  younger  life,     and  I  really  think  that  was  good,  too.  I  have  no  regrets  on  that.   My  young  life,    I  have  no  regrets  on  that.       01:00:30   And  I  have  had  a  really  good  life.  Roanoke’s  been  good  to  me.   The  gay  life’s  been  good  to  me  and  jobwise  I’ve  always  got  a   pretty  good  job  and  always  went  from  down  to  high  supervisor,   whatever,  manager.  So  it’s  been  good  to  me.  It’s  been  good  to   me.       01:00:50   And  my  bosses,  they  know  what  I  am,  and  Blah  Blah  Blah.  And   so  they  say,  one  time  they  told  me  “you  can  come  as  Carolyn   but  you  have  to  come  every  day  as  Carolyn.”  And  I  said,  “oh  no,   I'm  not.  Uh-­‐uh.”  [laughs]  I  say  “thank  you,  but  I'll  continue   coming  as  me.”  That  was  my  boss.  She  was  a  good  woman.  She   was  a  good  one.  Good  boss.  I  said,  uh-­‐uh.  I  can  do  the  shave  and   even  all  of  that  every  day.  Oh,  God,  no.  And  then  you  have  to,   you  know,  deal  with  straight  people,  you  have  to  deal  with   them.  And  they  already  look!  They  look  at  me  as  a  freak  now   when  they  see  me.  I  deal  with  a  lot  of  different  salesmen  and   stuff  like  that.  When  they  see  me  coming,  they  say  “We’re   looking  for  Calvin.”  I've  even  been  to  public  places  and  go  in  the   bathroom  in  the  men's  bathroom  and  they  run  out.  The  men   run  out.  I  go,  “come  on!”       01:01:49   “Do  I  look  that  dumb  to  go  into  a  men's  bathroom  if  I  was  a   woman?”  I  have.  When  you  come  out…  I  have  got  a  best  friend,   a  lady,  my  best  friend  she'll  say  [whispering],  “They  was  over   talking  about  you.  Going  in  the  men’s  bathroom.”  I  say  “I  don’t   care!”  I  say  “that’s  what  I  am.  That’s  me.”  If  I  go  in  the  women’s,   they  gonna  suss  so  bad.  If  I  go  in  the  men’s,  they’ll  fuss  about  it.   I  guess  I  just  don’t  care  [laughs].  But  yeah.  I  guess  stupid  stuff   like  that  happens  to  me.  I  know  when  I  go  to  eat,  I  mean  I  have   like  a  little  shadow(?)  and  they  go  “yes,  mam.  Can  I  help  you?   Yes,  mam.”  And  my  best  friend,  she's,  “I  ain’t  paying  no  mind.   I’m  used  to  you.”  I  say  “okay.”  Fine  with  you.  I  don’t  pay  no   mind  either.  My  life  is  pretty  good.  I'm  happy.  I'm  content  and   24 �that’s  the  main  thing  about  it.  I'm  just  happy  being  content  with   my  life.  I  wouldn't  change  it  for  anything.  If  I  could  go  back  and   make  a  couple  of  years,  maybe  20  years  ago,  but  I  know  what  I   know  now,  and  you  know,  I  would  be  dynamite.     KB:   01:03:03   What  would  you  change?  Knowing  what  you  know  now?   CW:   01:03:06   Oh  God.  Well,  I  would  know  my  life  better.  I  would  know  what   to  do  with  it,  you  know.  I  would  probably…  not  probably  going   to,  not  college,  but  a  little  what?  What'd  you  call  them?   Colleges.  Not  four-­‐year  colleges…   KB:   1:03:23   Like  vocational  schools?   CW:   1:03:24   Yeah,  something  like  that.  I  will  go  to  something  like  that  and   get  a  trade.  I  always  liked  it,  wanted  to  do  something  like  hair  or   something  like,  you  know,  get  into  that  for…  but  just  typically   pickup  a  curling  iron.  I  would  probably  run  outside  and  get  a   pitchfork  or  something.  [laughs]  “This  is  what  a  curling  iron  is?”   But  yeah,  I’m  very,  very  happy  with  my  life.  I  love  my  life.  Like  I   said,  I'm  content.  I  don’t  have  nobody  to  bother  me.  I've  been   over  here  for  17,  18  years  and  I've  never  had  any  incident  with   anybody.  Nobody  bothers  me.  I  don't  bother  them.       01:04:00   Um,  you  know,  I'm  just  happy.  You  know,  I  have  one  neighbor   up  the  street  that  I  talk  to,  my  neighbor  here.  But  everybody   else  out  of…  They’ll  waive  at  me,  “hey.”  But  I  don't  want  nobody   knocking  on  my  door  for  some  eggs  and  sugar  and  milk  and  all   of  that.  You  know,  that’s  what  neighbors  are.  That’s  what   neighbors  do.  But  I  don't  want  that.  I  just,  I'm  private.  I'm  very   private  and  I'm  a  private  person  and  that's  the  way  I  live,   private.  I  don't  want  anybody  knowing  my  business  and  if  they   think  they  know  it,  fine.  If  they  don't  know  it,  fine.  That’s  what  I   am.  I’m  private.  I  don’t  get  out  there  in  the  middle  of  my  yard   and  have  a  show,  do  a  show  for  em  [laughs].  I’m  just  private.   But  I  don't  care  if  they  know  what  I  am.  I  am  me.  You  know,  if   they  know  what…  If  they  think  they  know  what  I  am.  I've  never   been  to  none  of  them  so  they  don't  know  what  I  am,  but  if  they   think  they  know,  fine.  As  long  as  they  don’t  bother  me.  And  I   won’t  bother  them.  That’s  the  way  it  is.     KB:   01:05:09   Okay.  So,  we're  a  little  over  an  hour,  so…   CW:   01:05:14   Oh  let’s  do  two!  [laughs]     KB:   01:05:19   You  got  more  to  talk  about?  We  could.     25 �CW:   01:05:20   That's  up  to  you.  I'm  just  gossiping.  I  like  talking.     KB:   01:05:24   Okay.  So  maybe  kind  of  wrap  it  up.  Is  there  anything  that  you'd   like  to  see  in  the  future  and  like  in  the  community,  in  the   movement,  any,  uh,  like  I  know  they're  talking  about  like  the   bathroom  bill  and  rights  and  just  like  different...  I  know  like,  gay   marriage  is  now  a  thing.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you'd  like  to   see?     CW:   01:05:49   Oh  Lord,  no,  not  really.  I  think  they're  going  through  everything   that  I  would  like  for  them  to  do.  I  can't  think  of  anything  right   off  hand.  I  think  my  life,  my  life…  but  if  I  could  do  to  help  them,   yeah,  but  no,  I  can't  think  of  anything  that  um,  I  would  like  to   have  done.  As  far  as  the  bathroom  thing  and  stuff  like  that.   That's  wishy-­‐washy  to  me.  I  think  if  you  dress  like  a  woman,  you   should  be  able  to  go  into  a  bathroom  in  the  women's  bathroom   and  if  you're  dressed  like  a  guy,  you  go  into  the  guy’s  bathroom.   But  no,  I  can't  think  of  any  bills  and  things  that  I  need  to  add  on.     KB:   01:06:47   Okay,  well  I  think  that  we're  through.  You  want  to  keep  going?   We  can  keep  going?  [laughs]   CW:   01:06:53   That's  up  to  you.  If  you've  got  more  questions,  yeah,  but  if  you   want  to,  that’s  up  to  you.  I  ain’t  got  nothing  to  do.   CL  [Caitlyn  Lewis]:   01:07:07   It’s  up  to  you.  I  can  text  and  say  that  I'll  be  a  little  bit  longer.  It's   up  to  you.     KB:   01:07:11   I  don't  know,  is  it  gonna  mess  up  the  timeline  if  I  like  start  going   back?   CL:   01:07:18   I  don’t  see  why  not.   KB:   01:07:19   Okay.Well,  I  do  want  to  kind  of  ask  about,  like,  I  know  like  street   queens  were  a  big  thing.  Like  how?  I  know  like  they  talk  about   like  you  go—I  heard  in  some  other  interviews—they  talked   about  like  you  go  downtown  and  they're  just  like  everywhere   and  like…   CW:   01:07:37   Used  to  be.  Well,  I  was  one  of  those.  [laughs]  I  was  one  of  them   back  in  the  days.  Yes  I  was.  When  I  was  saying  about  the  Market   area.  We  used  to  go  down  there  and  carry  on  and  stuff.  And   yeah,  I  was  one  of  those.     KB:   01:07:56   What  did  that  entail?     26 �CW:   01:08:02   Ah…  God.  Finding  a  man.  [laughs]  No.  We  was  working.  We  was   working.  We  was  working.  We  were  doing  tricks  back  then.  They   called  em  “tricks.”  Back  then,  yeah.  They  ran  us  from  the  market   and  then  moved  up  to  Salem  Avenue  and  then  that's  where  I   disappeared.  I  got  out  of  the  scene.  And  I  started  working  at  the   bar,  in  my  other  job.   KB:   01:08:29   You  said  they  ran  you  from  the  market?     CW:   01:08:31   They  wouldn't  let  us  come  down  there!  They  wouldn’t  let  us   come  down  and  standing  and  stuff.  Which  we  weren't  down   there  doing  anything  mean.  We  just  go  down  there  and  stand   and  whatever…  whatever  happens,  it  happens.  But,  they  ran  us,   they  told  us  we  couldn't  stand  around  down  there  and  so  we   went  up  to  Salem  Avenue,  and  I  wasn’t  out  on  Salem  too  much   cause  I  had  to  start  working  at  the  bar  and  it  was,  you  know,   cutting  me  and  my  lifestyle  out  from  theirs.  So...  [laughs]  Back   then  I  was  like  this  small  [really  small].  I  was  real  tiny.  They  used   to  call  me  “mop  legs[?],”  and  stuff  like  that.  But  I  was  real  tiny,   and  back  then  I  was  a….  well,  I  was  small  and  attractive  and  you   know,  I  had  a  lot  of  boys  after  me  and  stuff.  That’s  why  I  had   five  boyfriends  and  stuff  like  that.  [laughs]  But  it  was   interesting.  But  then  I  got  out  of  it.  I  just  got  out  of  it.  You  know,   it  got  so  bad  where  they  were  killing  you  and  shooting  you.  I   had  a  friend  that  has  been  stabbed,  shot,  and  everything,  from   there.  And  I  got  out  of  the  business.  And  I  said,  “I  have  to  find  a   better  business  to  go  into.”     KB:   01:09:50   So,  did  it  just  kind  of  become  progressively  worse?  So  was  it  like   relatively  safe  like  in  the  beginning?   CW:   01:09:57   In  the  beginning  it  was  safe.  And  then  they  would  rob  you;  they   would  try  to  rob  you  and  stuff  like  that.  And  that's  when  I  got   out.  But  then,  in  the  early  days,  no.  But  after,  after  it  went  on   and  on,  they  start  trying  to  rob  you  and  killing  you  and  stuff  and   stabbing  you  and  cutting  you,  shoot  you,  whatever.  And  I  said   “not  today.”  It’s  not  for  me  no  more.  But  we  had  fun  doing  it.  It     was  exciting.  It  was  interesting.  [laughs]     KB:   01:10:27   So  when  you  got  out  of  that  business,  what  did  you  do  for   money  then?     CW:   01:10:32   I  started  working  at  The  Park.  I  started  working  at  The  Park  and   then  I  had  a  regular  job  at  Lewis  Gale.  I  was  working  there,  so   that’s  when  I  stopped  doing  it.  It  just  went  out  of  mind,  and  I   never  got  too  good  or  nothing  like  that.  You  know  how  people   say,  I  thought  I  was  better  than  them  and  stuff  like  that,   because  I  didn't  do  it  no  more.  It  wasn't  me.  I  could  care  less   27 �about  it.  You  do  you;  I  do  me.  If  you  do  it,  fine  with  me.  I'm  not   gonna  knock  you  for  doing  it.  Everybody's  got  to  live  in  some   kind  of  way.  And  that’s  where  we  were  living.  And  so  I  was  for   it.     KB:   01:11:15   So  when  you  started  performing,  um,  did  you  have  people  to   help  you  out?  Like,  you  know,  help  you  figure  out  makeup?   CW:   01:11:23   No,  I  had  nobody.   KB:   01:1125   Nobody  like  who  was…  like  I  know  a  few  other  people  would   talk  about  like,  you  know,  people  were  like,  “yeah,  you  gotta  do   this.  You  can  do  this.”  Like  they  mentored  them  and  teached   them  all  this  stuff  and…     CW:   01:11:35   Yeah,  I  mentored  a  few  people  but  nothing  major.  I  showed   them  how  to  put  the  makeup  on,  eyelashes,  and  stuff  like  that.   But  nothing  major.  I  never  did  took  anybody  and  put  them   under  my  wing  and  say  “you’re  my  daughter,”  or  “you’re  my   this,”  “you’re  my  that.”  Never  did  do  that.  Cause  once,  I  think   I've  always  seen  people,  once  they  put  on  makeup,  you  know   certain  people,  they  thought  they  knew  everything.  You  know,   they  knew  how  to  do  this,  they  know  how  to  do  that.  They   know  how  to  do  this.  So  you  don't,  it  just  pushes  you  back  from   them,  saying,  “okay,  you  know  how  to  do  it,  then  okay,  fine  with   me.”  But  once  they  put  on  that  makeup,  oh  they  know   everything.  They  know  all  the  models  and  stuff  [laughs].  So  I   just  back  off  from  them,  you  know,  that’s  the  type  of  person   that…  if  I'm  trying  to  help  you  and  you  don't  want  to  and  you   just  give  me  the  thought  that  you  don't  want  me,  I'll  back  off   from  you.  Go  on.  Help  yourself.  It’s  your  loss,  not  mine.   KB:   01:12:40   So,  we  heard  people  talk  about  like  they  have  like  families,  like   within  like  the  performing,  like  you  know,  they  get  a  mentor   and  then  they  get  a  new  mentor,  someone  else's.  And  it’s  kind   of  a  thing.  You  never…?   CW:   01:12:52   No.  Well,  I  did  have  a  couple  of  daughters  that  I  helped  out  a   little  bit.  But  like  I  say,  they  went  over  back  on  their  own,  but  I   did  have  a  couple  of  daughters.  Yeah,  I  did  have  that,  and  like   they  just  got  too  grown  and  they  went  out  on  like,  you  know,   they  went  on.  I  said  “Okay,  fine  with  me,”  but  they  still  come   back  and  ask  me  “well,  can  I  borrow?”  It's  not  help,  it’s  “can  I   borrow?”  you  know,  I  say  “take  it  out  of  the  closet  and  go  on,”   and  I  never  see  it  again.  That’s  the  amazing  thing  [laughs].  I   never  see  nothing  again.  I  spent  a  lot  of  people  want  to  borrow   from  me.  I  don't  have  any...  I  have  a  couple  of  daughters  and   that’s  it.     28 �KB:   01:13:36   So  do  you  have  any,  like  your  friends  now…  Are  they  still,  do  you   have  any  friends  who  are  still  active  within  the  community?   Performing  or  otherwise?     CW:   01:13:48   Oh  yeah,  lot  of  them.  Lot  of  them.  Quite  many.  But  they   divided…  when  The  Park  was  sold  or  whatever,  it  divided.  You   know,  the  ones  that  I  knew  from  the  ones  that’s  now,  from   what  I  understand,  the  ones  at  the  bar  now  don't  want  the  old   people  performing,  and  this  person  performing,  and  that  person   performing.  But  the  new  people,  like  at  the  Jefferson  [Center]   where  I’ve  performed,  at  the  Jefferson,  they  want  the  older   people  and  stuff  like  that.  That's  what  they  want.  So  I  just  say,   “oh  well,  more  power  to  you.”     KB:   01:14:29   So  you  mentioned  a  few  times  where  like,  you  know  people   need  help,  do  you  volunteer  or  anything  like  that?     CW:   01:14:40   What,  volunteer  to  help  em?     KB:   01:14:41   Yeah,  like  you  said  you  went  to  an  event  at  the  church?  So  do   you  do  things  like  that  often,  if  people  ask  you  to?     CW:   01:14:48   No.  Only  if  they  ask  me.  If  they  ask  me  to  help  them  out,  I’ll  be   glad  to  help  them,  but  they  don't  ever  ask.  I  guess  cause  I'm  just   to  myself,  you  know,  to  myself.  I'm  quiet  and  I  just  don't…  I'm   not  out  there,  you  know,  with  them  and  they  never  ask.  If  they   ask  they  ask.  If  they  don’t  they  don’t.  But  I’ll  help  them  if  they   ask.  I  would  like  to  get  into  that  type  of  stuff,  but  it's  too  one-­‐ sided  for  me.  It's  just…  One  year  with  the  Pride  in  the  Park   [festival],  it’s  the  girls,  the  lesbians  won’t  take  off  the….  One   year  it’s  the  gay  guys  want  to  tell  ya…,  then  the  next  year,  this   one,  and  they  don't  want  this  one  to  perform.  They  don't  want   that  one  to  perform,  and  then  they  go  out  of  town  and  pay   somebody  out  of  town  to  come  here,  [give]  money  to  do  them.   You  got  girls  here  that  would  like  to  perform,  but  then  you  don't   pay  them.  And  just  going  back  to  the  bar…  now  the  bar  they  pay   all  these  entertainers  to  come  in  from  out  of  town.  They  pay   them  big  money,  but  they  want  to  pay  the  people  that  perform   here—I  don't  perform  there—but  they  pay  them  zero.  And  I  go,   “why  do  y’all  do  that?”     01:16:07   I'm  not  going  down  there  to  do  nothing  for  free.  I  think  I'm  just   as  much  better  than  Miss  whoever  comes  in  from  out  of  town.   Yeah.  There's  just  so  one-­‐sided  to  me,  you  know,  it's  just...  And  I   don’t  fool  with  that  stuff.  I  really  don't  get  into  it.  I  try  to  stay   away  from  all  that  controversy.  It’s  too  much.     29 �KB:   01:16:31   So,  looking  at  the  people  you  frequently  impersonate—Janet   Jackson,  Patti  LaBelle,  Aretha  Franklin—is  there  a  reason  that   you  chose  those  people?  Like,  were  they  people  you  were  really   interested  in,  or  have  you  gotten  “oh,  you  kind  of  resemble  such   and  such…”     CW:   01:16:50   [laughs].  No,  I  just  like  the  music.  I  liked  their  music,  you  know,   the  music.  I  was  interested  in  their  music,  the  songs,  and  stuff   like  that.  I  try  to  go  by  what  I  think  the  people  like,  you  know.   That’s  what  I  tried  to  go  by...  you  know,  the  popular  songs,  you   know,  they’re  gonna  like  that.  Now  if  I  do  something  about   Aretha  Franklin  now  they’re  gonna  go  “God,  who  in  the  world  is   that?”  They’ll  go  “who  is  Aretha  Franklin?”  [laughs]  But  you   have  to  go  along,  for  me,  you  have  to  go  along  with  the  age  of   the  music,  though.  The  more  modern  music.  Some  people  like   older  music,  some  people…  But  these  younger  kids  these  days,   uh-­‐nuh,  they’re  not  trying  to…     01:17:35   They  don't  support  you  in  any  kind  of  way  when  it  comes  to   that.  Uh,  I  noticed  last  time  I  was  at  the  bar  I  used  to  make,  and   I'm  not  bragging,  but  I  used  to  make  buku(?)  tips.  Oh  God.  I   used  to  come  home  with  some  money.  But,  I  didn't  make—I   made  some,  but  not  very  much  like  I  used  to  make.  The  young   kids,  they  don't,  they  don't  support  you.  But  the  older  people   do.  They  know  about  what  you  got  to  go  through  in  drag  and   you  know,  the  makeup,  the  hair,  the  gowns,  and  they  know   what  you  spend.  But  the  younger  group,  they  don't  know   nothing  about  it.  All  they  want  to  be  is  pretty.  That’s  what  they   want  to  be.  They  don't  care  about  stuff  like  that.       01:18:22   But  going  back  to  the,  I  just…  I  do  what  the  music…  what’s  more   pop  right  now.  That's  what  I  do.     KB:   01:18:31   So  was  there  a  lot  involved?  Like  I'm  thinking  like  makeup,   costumes,  a  lot  of  practice  I'm  assuming.  Was  it  like  intensive?     CW:   01:18:40   Some  of  the  music  is.  Yeah,  like  I  used  to  be  in  a  group  called   Bowties,  from  The  Park  and,  they  will  give  you  Broadway  music.   Oh  God,  I  never  learned  this  song.  Cause  I  never  heard  it  before.   But  that’s  intense,  when  you  gotta  try  to  figure  out  what  you're   going  to  do,  what  you're  gonna  wear,  back  then  in  Broadway-­‐ type  stuff.  So  it  can  be.  It  can  be,  yeah.  If  you  don't  like  the   song.  Like  if  you  give  me  a  song  to  do  that  I  don't  think  I  like   doing,  it  ain't  going  to  go  very  well  with  me.  I'm  not  going  to   perform  it  at  my  best.  I  don't  think  I  will.  I’ll  try  to.  But  you   know,  I  just  want  to  perform  it  good.  But  if  something  I  like,  and   you  gave  me.  I  like  it.  “Yeah.  Oh  yeah.  I’ll  do  that  for  you.”   30 �KB:   01:19:35   So  you  said  group  the  Bowties?  Is  that…  like  did  you  have  to   audition  to  be  a  part  of  this  group?   CW:   01:19:46   No.  It  was  just  for  all  the  entertainers  that  wanted  to  do   something,  you  know,  do  the  show  and  it  was  really  good.  We   went  to  DC,  we  went  up  to  DC  and  we  took  the  group.  Well,  we   went  to  DC  in  the  year  that  Redskins  won  the  Super  Bowl,   whatever  year  that  was  [1983?].  God  that  was  moons  ago.  It   was  moons  ago,  and  they  paid  us  no  mind.  Oh,  Lord  I  was  so   upset  [laughs].  It  was  like  “Super  Bowl!  Yeah!  Redskins!”  You   could  hear  it  through  the  whole  [place],  “But  what  about  the   Redskins?”  Oh  God,  we  came  up  here  for  nothing.  Spent  all  that   money  and  stuff  for  nothing.  But  yeah,  it  was  pretty  good  group   we  had  going  up.     KB:   01:20:33   Did  you  do  group  performances?   CW   01:20:34   Yeah,  we  did  group.  We  did  singles.  We  would  do  singles,  you   know,  let’s  sing  a  number  and  then  we  would  do  a  Broadway   number.  Stuff  like  that.  It  was  interesting.  I  enjoyed  it.  I  wish   they  would  have  kept  it  up.  But  it  folded,  like  everything  else   folds.   KB:   01:20:59   So  just  to…  I  think  we're  kind  of  winding  down  here.  Alrighty.  I   know  you  talked  about  a  lot  of,  you  talked  about  how  if  you   could  go  back  knowing  what  you  know,  looking  back?  Anything   you  would  change  or  anything  that  was  particularly   memorable?     CW:   01:21:22   I  don't  think  so.  I  don’t  think  I  would  change  anything.  Cause,   like  I  said,  I've  had  a  pretty  good  life  except  for  my  early  life   when  I,  you  know,  left  home.  But  that  wasn't  bad.  But  uh,  no,  I   don't  think  I  would  change  anything.  Anything  in  my  life.  I  really   don't  think  I  would.     KB:   01:21:52   OK.  So,  like  other  than  Miss  Gay  Roanoke,  the  infamous  title,   what  is  like  the  proudest  thing  or  like  the  best,  your  best   accomplishment?   CW:   01:22:02   I  think  Miss  Gay  Roanoke.  I  would  like  to  have  had  Miss  Virginia,   but  I  didn't  have  the  money  for  that,  you  know,  the  money  you   have  to  spend  on  that,  that  pageant,  because  that's  a  very   expensive  pageant.  But,  I  would  like  to  have  had  Miss  Virginia.   Or  Miss  Gay  America  would’ve  do,  but  I  would've  never  gotten   that.  Never.  [laughs]  But  yeah,  that's  about  the  only  thing  I   would  like  to  have  done,  won  Miss  Virginia.     31 �KB:   01:22:40   Alrighty.  It  was  really  nice  interviewing  you.  Thank  you  so  much.     CW:   01:22:41   No  problem.  You’re  more  than  welcome.  I  enjoyed  you.  I   haven't  talked  so  much  in  all  my  days.  Good  God  almighty.   [laughs]     [END]     32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Carolyn Sue Wilson Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Kitty Bridgewater Interviewee: Carolyn Sue Wilson Date: 25 February 2018 Duration: 1:22:48 Transcription prepared by: Kitty Bridgewater Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2018 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carolyn Sue Wilson; Kitty Bridgewater Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All Rights Reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilsonCarolynSue https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5116/BurrussGail.MP3 54edba94c1b3b04f9f95bbea71f4e46b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5116/BurrusGail.pdf 5f7ac520e62d11f8adfe8c4c162fbcd9 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Gail Burruss February 18, 2019 Interviewer: Michelle Eimen Interviewee: Gail Burruss Date: February 18, 2019 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 220 High Street, Salem, Virginia Transcribed by: Katie Thaxton, Michelle Eimen, Christian Delaney, Marley Gonzalez Duration: 59:20 Index: 00:23 = Childhood in eastern Virginia (c. 1954 – 1972); graduating from college in 1976 and moving to Roanoke 02:13 = finding a lesbian community in Roanoke in the 1980s 03:22 = first lesbian relationship (c. 1976), while at college 06:12 = getting involved with First Friday 07:19 = the Roanoke Valley Women’s Retreats (1980s) 10:16 = activities of First Friday: concerts, parties, formal dances, newsletter, etc. 18:59 = First Friday demographics 19:43 = First Friday’s involvement with the gay male community 20:23 = Conflicts within First Friday over alcohol 24:01 = Gail’s Involvement with First Friday; dissolution of the group (late 1980s) 26:30 = Gail’s Involvement with Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) of the Blue Ridge (early 2000s) 35:17 = First Friday relation with other organizations; responses to the AIDS crisis 38:27 = conflicts at the Roanoke Valley Women’s Retreats 41:08 = current events: First Friday reunions; Denim Day commemoration 46:04 = more reflections on MCC 48:08 = retirement; and current activities and health condition 51:57 = involvement in Salem Museum & Historical Society 53:48 = reflections on LGBTQ spaces in the 1980s: The Park; Hugo’s 56:55 = Closing thoughts/Talk about upcoming First Friday film 00:05 ME: This is Michelle Eimen. I am interviewing Gail Burress and we are in the basement of Fintel Library at Roanoke College. The date is February 18th, 2019 at 3:56pm. So Gail, tell me a little bit about your childhood. 1 �00:23 GB: Sure, my childhood was somewhat challenging. I grew up on a farm in eastern Virginia, about halfway between Richmond and Fredericksburg, so it was very isolated. Didn’t have nearby friends but everybody who lived near us were relatives. Funny, for years, the first day after school was out, I read the Swiss Family Robinson. Wasn’t somewhere until later in life I was like “oh gee, stranded on a desert island,” yeah that is kind of what it felt like. My mother was an alcoholic and that was the other big challenge. She was a very difficult alcoholic. My father was a farmer, good guy, but really didn’t know how to manage that or handle that. I guess he just sort of left it up to ourselves. They argued a lot, some very hideous arguments. She would do all kinds of things to provoke him and that kind of thing. So yeah, it was difficult. 01:20 ME: And how long did you stay there in Eastern Virginia did you say? 01:27 GB: When I first heard of mountains, I wanted to live in them. I wanted to live in the mountains. I was just enchanted by pictures I saw and thought it would be wonderful to live in the mountains. So, I went to college in Lynchburg at what is now known as Randolph College. Then afterwards, I was offered a job in Roanoke and came here and been here ever since. 01:54 ME: So what would be the time frame for that? What years or if you can remember. 01:58 GB: Sure, I was born in 1954. Graduated from High School in 1972. Graduated from college 1976 and been in Roanoke ever since then. 02:13 ME: So, if you don’t mind me asking, why did you first get involved with the LGBTQ community here? Were you involved beforehand before you moved? 02:28 GB: No, well I got involved because I am a lesbian. I mean it’s a simple short answer, but I think especially in the [19]80s, ‘70s and ‘80s, there was really a need for community and for connection and a means to find each other. So, we kind of created our own lesbian community. In later years, I found out, that there were some women who thought that we were separatists but that wasn’t the case at all it was just a group of lesbians who did a lot of stuff. 03:01 ME: Was there any reason why they thought that you were separatists? 03:06 2 �GB: I think they just didn’t know. No, not at all. They certainly would have been welcome to joined us but no reason at all that I am aware of. 03:22 ME: If there is any questions that you don’t want to answer, please let me know. So you coming out, did you come out after you moved here? 03:37 GB: Well, no, not exactly. My senior year at college, a college faculty member slash administrative person became very attracted to me and we ended up having a relationship. Sort of an odd way, cause talk about being closeted on multiple fronts. That of course was destined not to last. And it didn’t. It was devastating to me when we broke up. It affirmed that I just… I had really tried to enjoy dating men as a kid, tried to pretend I was fantasizing about guys. It just didn’t work. You know, I just knew that it wasn’t what was real for me. Even before I knew that there was a name for it. 04:33 ME: So, that first relationship, how old would you say you were? 04:41 GB: I would’ve been 21, 22 when it started. She was I’m thinking probably about 33, 34? 04:49 ME: Did that relationship maybe cause any problems or was it just smooth sailing? 04:57 GB: Well, given her role and my role, also she was married, too. And I really liked her husband and felt tremendously guilty about that, but my gosh, you know, super guy. There were problems, yeah, sure. Her role, my role, her being married, my genuinely liking him, feeling badly about that. She was very much the person who kind of established things going. Getting things going with us. So, you know, I am not saying I wasn’t a willing participant, because I certainly was, but she facilitated it happening let’s just put it that way. 05:49 ME: Yeah, and you said you were [in your] early twenties when that happened. So, that would’ve been probably around either after you graduated college or before? 06:04 GB: No, it started my senior year so about 1976 thereabouts. 06:12 ME: When did you start getting involved in the LGBTQ community? Like you know, maybe heavy handedly. 3 �06:20 GB: Here in Roanoke, probably in the late no early ‘80s, forget the late part. The early ‘80s. Yeah, I lived in Old Southwest at the time. A lot of other lesbians lived in Old Southwest and we met and connected. I remember one day somebody said “we had dinner at this restaurant in Salem called the Taylor House.” Two women owned it and we kinda got to talking and they said “hey if ya’ll ever want to have an event here, or just a social gathering not an event, then let me know and I can stay open later or make some special arrangements for you.” So, I was like “wow! Yeah! Sure!” It was great. So, we started getting together on the first friday of every month and henceforth this group came to be known as First Friday. We did a lot of really good stuff. 07:19 ME: Yeah, could you tell me more about that? About First Friday? 07:23 GB: Sure! It was never a formalized group in any way. Never had officers for example. We had a treasurer, that was the closest we had. Somebody who tended very carefully to our finances. We had some very energetic people who said…. The first thing was, you know, we should all get away and have a weekend retreat. So, we did. We publicized it some. Went off to a girl scouts camp in Riner, Virginia. Which is between Christiansburg and Floyd. Camp Carysbrook, it was called. Had a fabulous time. Absolutely wonderful. I think that first year there was maybe 40 people. It was just so fabulous and it was just wonderful. And word of that got out like you wouldn’t believe. We started getting all kinds of requests to put them on our mailing list. So, “oh, okay, we’ll start a mailing list.” This is before any kind of technology existed. It was all paper [and] pencil back then. So, the next year… Oh, the girl scout camp kicked us out. They wouldn’t let us come back. They realized somewhere along the way that we were lesbians and nope, [we] couldn’t come back. So we found another place, I think the second year was when we went up to Camp Rim Rod, it’s called, up near Clifton Forge. Beautiful area. We had to do a lot of cleaning up up there because it was pretty rugged, but we did. It rained a lot that weekend. There was lots of mud. That was okay too, but I think we may have had 100 people that weekend. I can’t remember. But, we had lots of structured things, you know, obviously meals but also we did these silly games called the Lesbian Olympics. And I mean silly, really silly. There was always a dance at night. There was always some musicians and some time available to just hang out with musicians. They would play. Had a campfire. There was time when people did what they wanted to do, but a lot of connectedness time, too. And we did that for, I can’t remember how many years. Maybe eight or nine? 09:42 ME: Yeah, I am going to backtrack a little bit there, Lesbian Olympics caught my attention. Can you explain that one? 09:49 GB: Well sure, again it was just, you know, trying to be light hearted and to get people to engage with each other and to be silly and laugh. And so, it was crazy things like potato sack 4 �races, I mean we are talking about women you know [in their] twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, maybe sixties. Potato sacks and just silly stuff. I mean truly silly stuff just to... Again, but what a great way to connect. 10:16 ME: That’s great. I really like that. Can you tell me more about the other events that you guys did during first friday? 10:27 GB: We enjoyed our success so much that somewhere along the way, we decided to produce a concert. The ‘80s was a very rich time for lesbian musicians culturally. There were a lot of musicians. The first one we produced it was June Millington and I can’t remember who her backup person was. But anyway, we had that at The Park. The bar downtown, they let us do it there. We had a huge crowd. That was really dance music and so it was really robust. Once the concert was over, the regular bar folks came in and it was okay it was great energy with all of that. We produced a fabulous soloist named Linda Tillery. She actually stayed at my house. Back in those days, musicians were so accustomed to living in modest means, shall i say, that they were quite comfortable with staying in people’s houses. Now, we would go to extraordinary lengths to make sure that we were incredibly hospitable. We had little chocolates on the pillows at night, the best linens, that kind of thing. We ended up doing probably about four or five concerts. We did one here on this campus in the chapel, Cris Williamson. So it was just really neat. We also, we produced a play once. Always we had the monthly gatherings on the first friday of every month. After the Taylor House restaurant closed, which closed pretty early on after we started doing this, we just started doing it in people’s homes. People would volunteer their houses and it worked out great. We also did formal dances. This all started when a women who is highly esteemed in our community was having her 50th birthday coming up and one of her friends knew that she had always wanted a big formal dance for her 50th birthday. So it was like “okay! Let’s do it!” So, there is a place called, used to be called, the Roanoke County Women’s Club building. It’s right on the line between Salem and Roanoke. Across from where, oh what do you call it, what used to be where [Lakeside was]. Anyway, there’s a Kroger, there’s a Goodwill, it’s kind of up the hill over there, kind of hidden back. Beautiful old building. At that point it was very well cared for. They had live-in caretakers. Beautiful venue for something like that and so we had it there. So folks rented a tux for her and rented a limousine to go pick her up. She lived out in Craig County. We were all just in awe of this. I mean there were women there in formal women’s gowns and other women in tuxes. Goodwill had quite a run on tuxes. Some people rented ones, but anyway it was so much fun. There were women that came together as a band and they were pretty good and we danced and danced and danced. It was funny, the caretakers, the caretakers of course were responsible for the care of this place and they would occasionally come down and kind of look around. It was a couple probably in their seventies I am going to say. And they kind of look around and look around, then they would look at each other and kinda shake their head and go on back upstairs because we weren’t doing anything that was contrary to the contract we had signed with them. Then they would come on back down later. Well, at one point, the musicians blew the electrical system. So, one of our women was an electrician so we had to go and get the caretaker and he’s down and she’s flying 5 �around, because we wanted the music to go on, you know, their tails are flying behind her, to do whatever she needed to do to be able to get the electricity back on. He, at that point, somewhere in that process, turned to her and said, “some of the men here look an awful lot like women.” But anyway, yeah, it was great. Um, is everything okay? I keep that you’re noticing it [the recording device]. 15:11 CD: Just keeping an eye on it. 15:12 GB: Okay. Alright. Good enough. So anyway, we all left that night just beyond elated. Yeah, just, it was incredible. It was beautiful, and we decorated the place nicely. We all looked good. So that being so successful we decided to have a formal dance the next year, too. Same place. Roanoke’s original name was Big Lick, so we called it the Big Lick – I can’t remember [Big Lick Lesbian Cetennial Dance]. But it was some sort of anniversary year for Roanoke, too, so we kind of you know did a play on words with those two. Big Lick Lesbian Formal – whatever, I don’t know. But anyway, yeah, it was pretty funny. We had dance cards, and we kept evolving things you know, we did dance cards and you know who can I ask to sign my dance card for dance number four and that sort of thing. It was so much fun, it really was. Oh, we had a newsletter. It was a quarterly, so it was called Skip Two Periods, you know [laughter]. We had lots of fun doing just those, but it was a good newsletter. It really was, and again, in a way of keeping people connected, and at that point we had a mailing list of I’m thinking five or six hundred people. So and again we had to do all of this by hand, so we had what we called S&M parties – stamping and mailing. Many of those happened on my porch in Old Southwest [laughter]. There is a woman named Kathryn Beranich, who is working on a film, it’s called The Unlikely Story of the Lesbians of First Friday, and the world premiere of this film is going to be on Sunday, April 7th at 5 o’clock at the Grandin Theatre. And hope all of you will come. She’s worked incredibly hard on it. She lives in LA [Los Angeles] now. She’s been back several times interviewing a lot of people.1 17:14 ME: Have you been interviewed for it? 17:15 GB: Oh yeah, definitely. But gathering memorabilia, you know, pictures of dance cards and pictures of the Lesbian Olympics [laughter]. So you can learn a lot about what we did. But anyway, it was lots of fun. It [First Friday] was a lot of work. We worked really really hard to make it all happen, and grew quite a community from that. Both locally. But towards the end women were coming from North Carolina, West Virginia, you know, all those adjacent states to the events that we did. It was neat. 1 Kathryn L. Beranich has also conducted an oral history for this project; see, Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Oral History Interview with Kathryn L. Beranich,” January 17, 2017, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Library. 6 �17:48 ME: And were there any themes for any of these events? You said that there was a formal dance theme, or can you recall any others or which ones were your favorites? 17:57 GB: Big Lick Lesbian Festival I think we maybe called that one. A festival isn’t quite the right word. Themes? You know the first one was the big birthday event. After that I think we may have done around Valentine’s [Day], around this season. [We called the annual formal dance the Spring Fling.] I can’t really remember themes. Good question though. Dig into my cerebral matter. See what I can figure out there. 18:21 ME: So um for the events, did they happen over maybe a week, a few days, generally just a night, or…? 18:29 GB: The retreats were always weekend retreats. Starting to gather Friday afternoons and very sadly concluding Sunday afternoon. Everybody kind of hated the reentry of going back into other life. Whereas that felt like real life and going back to other life. Everything else was just, you know, a dance was for the evening. But the energy from it really spilled over to the following days I think. It was neat. 18:59 ME: And you said that there was a big age group for these events. Is there any other, you know, demographics for First Friday? 19:13 GB: It was not very racially or ethnically diverse. [clears throat] Excuse me. I can think of a few African American women and a few women of Mexican or Central American or Asian background, a few women with evident physical disabilities, but mostly we were white bread. 19:43 ME: And did First Friday ever have any involvement with the gay community of any, you know…? 19:50 GB: You mean the larger gay community? 19:52 ME: More of, you know, male gay... 19:57 GB: Yeah. No, you know most of us had friends who were men, and some were kind of envious that we had kind of created this. Again, [we were] by no means separatists, but it was just really 7 �important to us to have a means and a venue for connection and we really wanted to just build community. And that’s what we were doing. 20:23 ME: Were there any issues while you were involved with First Friday? Any maybe hostility or backlash perhaps? 20:34 GB: You mean within First Friday itself or with the larger community? 20:38 ME: Both. 20:39 GB: Okay. You know within First Friday folks it was very fluid in terms of who was involved when. There was always sort of like a core group the you could expect to be there and active and doing things. And then other people would appear because they really liked the retreat and wanted to work on that, or they really liked to do the food, so they work on that. Or would maybe choose not to work on anything else all year. Sure, there were some conflicts that would arise. I think the biggest one probably was in the first years of the retreats we provided as part of the admission fee, which I think was thirty-five dollars the first year, if my memory serves me correctly, free beer. Well there were women who were alcohol dependent and I objected to that. I had a concern about that and raised the issue. And there were other people who saw it as a matter of hospitality. This is how we show hospitality. And I said “you know, what you’re asking people to do who cannot or choose not to drink to subsidize those who can, and also we’re making a statement about the type of environment and atmosphere that is okay here, that’s okay. And I think you know we really need to think that through.” It got to be a pretty heated argument, but you know it’ll settle down. I think we ended up stopping the practice. Yes, I know we did, we stopped the practice of providing free beer. But it was a lot of, I don’t even—I don’t want to call it hostility, but a lot of intense feelings. In one of the Skip Two Periods I think you’ll find an article, if you can get your hands on that, we didn’t put our names on anything we ever wrote, because again we all had to be closeted within most of a larger structure, so like I’m GB. If you ever find a GB that’s me. But yeah that’s one of the biggest ones that I remember. We had other conflicts about just minutiae, but things that we could resolve pretty quickly so, you know, there were certain personality conflicts and people just not liking that person and these two people had just broken up or whatever. So yeah but things smoothed over, [I’ll] put it that way. In order for the larger cause of making it all happen. 23:06 ME: Yeah and you mentioned an admission fee. 23:10 GB: [Confirms] 8 �23:14 ME: Were there any – did that admission fee go to charity at all? 23:21 GB: What we did with the registration fee, I guess we called it, was to use it obviously to pay for whatever we needed to pay for for that year. Then as seed money for the next events that we were doing. When First Friday dissolved in the late [19]80s, somewhere along the way there, there was a woman in our community who was blind and who was very eager to have a seeing eye dog and so we gave her the money to be able to get a seeing eye dog, which she did. 24:01 ME: And so what was your role through some of these First Fridays? Did you ever take a specific role every time or did it vary? 24:18 GB: You know it varied quite a lot. I was part of all the planning kinds of events. Always, meetings. I was always there. You know I did a variety of things. Sometimes I worked on developing workshops to have at the retreat. Sometimes I worked on the food committee. Sometimes I worked on things like I took on the job, after we got kicked out of the girl scout camp, I took on the job of finding other camps. And kind of drove around and looked at a lot of places, made phone calls, and got turned down. We decided we would be very candid with camp owners, operators, whatever, thereafter. Let them know that we were a lesbian group. After, of course, I talked long enough to the point they liked me pretty well. And we got turned down by a whole lot of places. So it got very dismaying. We did end up finally going to a camp in [the] Appomattox area. Beautiful state park camp. It was wonderful. And we were just in the offseason, so there was a whole segment of the camp that we could have to ourselves privately. It was wonderful. 25:29 ME: And what year was that? Do you remember? 25:31 GB: That was probably ’85 [1985], I’m gonna guess, ’86 [1986]. 25:36 ME: And how long were you involved with First Friday? Are you still involved? 25:41 GB: No, First Friday pretty much dissolved along the way. I think what happened is that around in the late ‘80s [1980s] there were quite a few women from this community who had been very, very active in First Friday and they had moved away to other places either for professional or personal reasons. It just sort of fizzled out, which is unfortunate, but those of us who were the regulars in doing everything knew that we could not sustain what we had been doing all those 9 �years. And you never knew, from time to time, who you could pull in who wasn’t a regular to do something else. To work on whatever. 26:30 ME: So since that kind of fizzled out are you involved with any other LGBT organizations, such as Positive Alternative Lifestyles later on or Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance or anything else you are involved with? 26:46 GB: No, I haven’t been. I’ve always been aware of those organizations, but I guess [I] did not have the need at that point to be engaged with them. I guess the only other LGBTQ thing I was ever really involved in was the Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge, and that actually turned out to be a disastrous experience. 27:11 ME: Could you tell me more about that? 27:13 GB: Sure, it’s a very ugly story but yeah. Been going there a few years with my partner and MCC [Metropolitan Community Church] is part of a denomination. In other words, it’s not just a little church here, it’s a part of a denomination. And a position within the church is that of lay delegate, and that is the conduit between the local church and the denomination. And someone suggested that I run for that office, and actually for every hundred members there’s one lay delegate. And this church had just passed the one-hundred mark so they’re going to need two lay delegates. So, I said okay, sure. So, I ran, was elected, and you know it didn’t seem to be – it wasn’t like a job that involved a huge amount of anything. Until… Until two women in the church came to me and said is there a process for making a complaint about a clergy member? And I said—and I knew what was going on, and I’ll get to that in a minute—and I said I don’t know, but I will find out. Well, what was going on was that there were two women, each of whom had partners and they started—one of whom was the pastor of this church—and they started, the pastor and this other woman who was a lay delegate, got together. And these other two women were the ones who came to me saying “is there any means for making a complaint?” I said “I don’t know. I’ll find out.” So I, thankfully by this time there’s internet and that kind of thing, and I went online and I had to dig around for it. But yes, there is a clergy code of conduct, so I printed that out, got with them and said, “Here you go. Complaints can be made through this process.” Which was the other thing that I found out, which was if there was to be a process this is what it is. So, you know one of the things—the biggest thing in there was that clergy are not to violate the sanctity of relationship commitments, or something [similar to that]. The wording isn’t quite like that. In other words, “sanctity” was in there. But something like “relationship commitments.” And they said, “well, she’s clearly…. She, the pastor, has clearly violated that.” And they nitpicked about, I don’t want to say nitpicked, but they were, you know, pretty vehement about a variety of other things that she had done that were contrary to the code of conduct. You know, being completely forthright and honest and all financial transactions and they said, “Well she’s never paid any taxes.” Apparently clergy are not employees and haven’t 10 �withdrawn [withheld], but she just didn’t pay taxes. So anyway, I wrote up their complaint and started the process which was to submit it to a what was called the regional elder. Am I taking too much time with this? [proceeding] Okay. 30:20 GB: And I had to talk to her. And anyway, one thing lead to another and all hell broke out. This denomination was allegedly going to investigate this. I got a call one day and it was a guy who was a minister, somewhere in the west coast and I said to him at one point, “Wait a minute. You don’t investigate me. I’m simply… here is what my job is and I am simply reporting it.” But anyway, she eventually was found—she wasn’t absolved, I’ll think of the word in a minute that they used rather than absolved. [It was determined to be unfounded. She wanted to call it exonerated, but it wasn’t an exoneration.] Basically nothing happened as a result of it. But meanwhile…. and it was supposed to be a confidential process, understandably, and I hadn’t said a word to anybody. The two women may have but I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I was very clear this was a hot item and I gotta follow what I need to follow by the letter [of the process]. And I did. But anyway word got out and I was deemed to be the evil one, the enemy. And oh yes, yes, yes, yes. And I won’t go through all the nasty things that happened along the way, and they were really nasty. But there was some sort of meeting called at the church one night. For anybody in a leadership position, for lack of a better word. And I was like, okay this is not going to be pretty but I’m going. Because I had not done anything wrong, I knew that. I had been very, very careful to do things just the way they had to be done. So, I get there and… no, someone very kindly as I’m heading out of the door called me and said, “You need to know this whole meeting tonight is a set up for you.” I said “okay.” He said, “I can’t really give you the details.” So, [I decided to go anyway]. I get there, and this minister person announced that she has been absolved [exonerated]. And I corrected her, gave her the correct word, I can’t remember the word right now, it’ll come to me. It wasn’t absolved though. [It was unfounded.] It was sort of like they weren’t going to take any action on it. She was obviously trying to rebuild some credibility. I later found out that they had spent a lot of time planning this event out, which was to, I think, completely humiliate me. 33:00 GB: But anyway there was a woman there named [name removed]. My goodness I’ll never forget her. She started making all these hideous, horrible accusations about what a horrible thing I had done. By then, of course, I had been trying to explain, “look this is what my job was and this is what I did.” There was a guy there named Dale, who had been instrumental in that church since the very beginning of it and he would stand up periodically and say “Gail has done nothing wrong.” But this [name removed] was just carrying on and nasty, immature, ridiculous stuff. [It was] one of those pivotal moments in life, that you know you will never forget. This woman named Melanie came up to me and put her hands on my shoulders and just said “Gail, it’s time to leave.” And I thought “oh my gosh, yes!” I was so wrapped up in the content that I just did not have that realization. I walked out of that place knowing I would never walk back into that place again. And haven’t and won’t. I consider it a place of evil. I really do, and there were other things, too. I don’t even want to try to remember them all [laughing]. Ridiculous stuff. There was, somebody did a petition with the most absurd things and you know I probably 11 �could’ve done a libel thing and some people talked to me about doing that. Frankly, I had a really demanding job at the time and I just didn’t want to deal. I just didn’t want to be that public at that point with it. [I didn’t want to put the energy into it that suing them for libel would have required.] That was secondary, though, to just the physical and emotional time it would have taken to go through that. It would’ve been really ugly and I’d had enough ugliness at that point. 34:48 ME: And have you kept your word to yourself and haven’t been involved with that organization since? 34:54 GB: That place that masquerades as a church, as I call it, absolutely not, no contact, no anything, never will! 35:05 ME: How long ago was that? 35:07 GB: This would’ve been in the early 2000s. 2002-ish maybe? 35:17 ME: Well I’m going to back track and ask more about organizations… did First Friday ever work with other organizations? 35:24 GB: I’m trying to think, I can’t think of any right off hand. Again, we weren’t opposed to doing that, it was just that those opportunities weren’t there. I guess the closest we came was looking for venues to hold the events. Like here, we were candid with Roanoke College. This is the audience that’s most likely to attract. She was a little bit mainstream, Cris Williamson, and so we knew there would be straight people would be attracted, too. You know The Park and doing that, but not ongoing, formal, kind of liaisons. 36:08 ME: Well, I’m going to jump subjects a little bit since we are talking about, you know, the ‘80s and stuff with First Friday. Did the AIDS crisis ever effect you or First Friday at all? 36:22 GB: Yeah. You asked about conflicts earlier and that was one of them that was, you know, really difficult. The AIDS crisis hit here very hard and there is a guy here named Myer, who’s a psychologist and he had gotten very involved, and had quite a few other people, in providing aid and support to people who had AIDS. I connected with him, I can’t remember how, but I was one of a group of people who had volunteered to visit AIDS patients in the hospital who didn’t have any family members or any family members that would visit or really had any friends. People were really scared to go in the hospital and visit. At that point, you had to put on a mask 12 �to go in, and these guys [were so sick], it was really sad. I asked Myer at some point, “what else would be helpful?” and they had an AIDS support group. People who weren’t hospitalized, but you know were sick or infected at least. And he [Myers] said “You know I hate to ask you all to do something that might seem like the traditional women’s role, but it would be really nice if we had some like homemade desserts. When we met. Cookies, cake, whatever.” And I said “I don’t think it’ll be a problem at all. I’ll take it to next time we have a meeting.” I did and there was kinda some silence and then somebody said, somebody who’s a very dear friend okay, said, “That is not our issue!” And so, okay… Anyway, I just did it and other people did it without there being any affiliation with First Friday. But you know, that was, that was the kinda thing that really sucked energy away that lead to our dissolution. 38:27 GB: And I think over the course of time, if it had been in this millennium rather than in the 1980s, it would’ve been a whole different response. But back then, I think, and again it wasn’t a separatist thing, it’s just what it was. Back to conflicts, there were women who were parenting children and wanted to be able to bring their kids to the retreat. It was really, pretty difficult, you know. Because then they had to find weekend child care and some people didn’t have that. So there were some arguments about that. We never did allow it. Or maybe we allowed for kids over the age of something, maybe twelve or something, but we didn’t want to have to be monitoring our behavior, or… [cut off by Michelle] 39:15 ME: Sorry. Did alcohol ever had a hand in that decision that you didn’t want to monitor your behavior? 39:19 GB: No, no it was separate. We just wanted to be completely free to be ourselves. That’s all we wanted for those weekends and to have a really good time, connect, have a good community thing going and I think we did allow children at some point. Or maybe it was under a certain age, if they were infants or toddlers, I can’t remember now. Another one was pets. When we were looking through a bunch of memorabilia for the film, when Kathryn the producer was here, we all about plotzed, I think it was an invitation to a retreat and it said, “No Children or Pets.” It was like, “oh no!” [laughter] We were not exactly politically correct then. We are all sort of embarrassed by it. Oh my gosh, we actually put that out? No children or pets? And I remember then there were some women who really had a tizzy fit. “Oh you’re equating my children with being a pet, huh?” No, no we didn’t mean to. It’s amazing that we did as much as we did for as long as we did with the nature of some of these conflicts. 40:27 GB: And then of course there was the issue of boy children versus girl children. Some people didn’t want boy children present in anything. It was like, oh come on. So, yeah. We had a great time but there was some tough things that happened, too. 40:42 13 �ME: When you were saying “no children or pets” did you get that out through word of mouth or was it printed on fliers? 40:51 GB: That was printed on the invitation to, I think, a weekend retreat. Yes. We about plotzed when we saw that, it was like, oh no! We didn’t really say that did we? Yes we did! [laughing] 41:08 ME: So switching gears here. You were involved with the [Southwest] Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project event last year. Am I correct? 41:20 GB: I attended some events, uhuh. 41:22 ME: What events did you attend? 41:24 GB: Down at The Park, out for Pride Day. Did that. That might have been the only thing. Although I have some recollection of something else. But, I definitely remember Pride Day. 41:35 ME: But you didn’t really have the role of setting it up or anything just [Gail nods no] having fun. [nods yes] 41:49 GB: Did y’all do that through the Diversity Center? That somehow rings a bell but maybe I’m wrong. Okay. 41:56 ME: I’m not quite sure but, yeah, any future plans of going to events or being involved in other things? 42:08 GB: At this point not really. We did a First Friday reunion last year, it was great and we’re doing another one this year just building a whole weekend around that with the film on Sunday night. Also Denim Day at Tech [Virginia Tech]. It’s the 40th year anniversary. Have you ever heard of Denim Day? [We all shake our heads no] Okay, 40 years ago a Gay Student Alliance I think it was specifically, I think, four women of that alliance decided to declare a denim day. Denim of course was what everybody wore, and still do. But the thing was, if gay people wear denim or only all people who wear denim are gay or something like that. And it got [a] huge amount of attention, much of which was fairly controversial. I think I’ve heard that the university president got a letter from a state legislator saying “you’ve gotta get that place under control up there,” and stuff like that. But the university as part of sort of making amends because they have 14 �acknowledged in some ways that we did not handle that well, wanted to do a 40th anniversary of “hey, this is who we were then, ahd this is who we are now.” The Diversity Center, I will not go into that building that houses the place that masquerades as a church [MCC], and that's where the Diversity Center is housed and I think maybe, is the History Project there also? No, okay. Anyway I think over the course of time, you know I’ve got my own community network of friends and that works. 43:52 ME: So for the, I guess, Denim event, was that a party? What kind of event was it? 43:59 GB: You know, I truthfully don’t know. I know that the biggest thing was just that if you were wearing denim, you’re gay, and, you know, they had fliers all over, they apparently spent the whole night putting fliers under everybody's doors. So, but the campus apparently went into some kind of an uproar. Keep in mind I wasn’t a student there, so I don’t know exactly what happened. But, apparently it got a lot of media attention as well as just on campus, divisive kind of attention. I’ll make sure I get to Dr. Rosenthal if you’d like information about it, so if any of you want to go. I think it’s that Thursday night, maybe that Thursday and Friday nights are memorial kinds of events or remembrance events. But, I think it’s neat that Tech is doing that. I think it’s important. I think institutions when they can acknowledge when they have not done something well, and make amends, are the strong institutions. That’s why that place that masquerades as a church… I remember, with one of the two people who wanted to make the complaint… a few years after that we had gotten together, we were just chatting about a variety of things, we were well past that, we didn’t talk about that mess anymore. But, just out of the blue, she said “You know, I really thought that, at some point, we would get an apology from those people [MCC].” I just looked at her and started shaking my head and said, “No, they’re so wrapped up in justifying the horror that they did.” It really damaged that institution, and I, maybe once or twice a year, will hear somebody comment on it and say “It's not doing well at all.” And it hasn’t. They no longer have a full-time minister. I’ve heard they have trouble paying bills and just stuff like that. But I really think that, either as a person or an institution, when you indulge in perpetrating that kind of evil, that you’re not able to be a healthy, robust individual or institution. 46:04 ME: I was gonna ask, were a lot of the people that you did have confrontations with back then, still in that church? Are they still involved? 46:16 GB: Truly I don’t know who goes there. I can tell you that… [laughs] one pivotal moment in all this was that person, I guess I should say that person who masquerades as a minister [laughs], as a part of her sermon, or maybe as she concluded her sermon that day, standing there at the pulpit—beautiful historic church building in Southeast [Roanoke]—was pounding the bible on the pulpit and says “Anybody who doesn’t like what’s going on in the ministry of this church can just leave!” Well, that was the last day when a lot of people were there. On the other hand, I still have incredibly vivid memories of people, well, the first person jumping on his feet to applaud, is 15 �[name removed]! But, you know, people don’t know that side of somebody, and there were other people who were on their feet applauding and... as I left that day I just sort of sat there in awe, looking around thinking “This is so sick and no, I will not be back here.” That was before I knew I’d never enter the building again but, I’m thinking “This is so sick, a pervasive sickness here.” And as I left that day, I ran into a number of people who said “That’s the last time I’ll be here.” So, I don’t know, and truthfully don’t care anymore [laughs]. It’s all ancient history now. But it’s a real sickness that was, and I think probably still is, present there, and it’s very unfortunate. 48:02 ME: So, what do you currently do? 48:12 GB: Well, I retired about three and a half years ago. That came about earlier than I thought I would be retiring, but I acquired a medical diagnosis of a cancer called multiple myeloma, it’s blood plasma cancer, and it was evident after a couple of weeks or months that, if I was gonna live for more than a year or so, I needed to have a stem cell transplant and that was gonna take me out of commission for [a] minimum of three months. And really, the stem cell oncologist said “You know, it’ll really be a whole year before you really feel well again. Feel like yourself again.” And that turned out to be about right. So I realized I needed to retire. Thankfully I was of an age and a duration where I worked and I was a part of the Virginia Retirement System, that I could retire pretty comfortably. I started Social Security at the age of 62, not really thinking I’d ever do it that early but thinking pragmatically, I may not live long enough, if I wait until 66, to ever benefit from it, so better start now. So, medical treatment takes a lot of my time. I do a lot of volunteer work. I’m licensed in Virginia as a professional counselor. I retired as a clinical director for adult services at Blue Ridge Behavioral Healthcare. I worked with a local district court judge to start a... really it’s a mental health court, she calls it a therapeutic docket because when she was starting it the Supreme Court of Virginia would not allow any more boutique courts so… okay, it’s not a mental health court it’s a therapeutic docket. But I volunteer with that with the treatment team and really, really enjoy doing that. I teach courses in substance disorders at the police academy a few times a year. Um… I read. My partner lives in Michigan! Of all things, I know. Her cousin who used to live here introduced us, and she’ll be here next week and… you know, long distance relationships certainly have their challenges but, you know, it’s okay. It’s about ten years now and we’ve gotten accustomed to managing this, yeah. When we’re together we’re really together though, that’s nice, and we’re not under each other's noses all the time, so, there’s some real advantages to doing it that way. I travel when I can. I was so happy this past summer, I was able to do a…. I always thought “Retirement! I’ll do all kinds of travelling.” And then I got this diagnosis thing I gotta deal with. Multiple myeloma is considered a chronic form of cancer, if you didn’t know that. So, I was able to do about a three and a half, no, a little over three week trip out west, from Vancouver, Seattle, down the coast.... the coastal highway there. That was with my partner, Peggy, and her daughter and one year-old grandson who despises the carseat [mimics a baby cry, we all laugh]. And then they all had to go home and I went on enjoying the tour group that did the national parks of southern Utah which was just beyond fabulous. I’m in a bunch of different groups. I’m in a reading group, a supper group, a diversity group, a spiritual, social justice group. I think there’s another one in there 16 �somewhere. So I’m very socially active, very politically engaged. I try to take care of myself in all ways, just cause I know that I have to, I have to. 51:57 ME: And you’re also on the Board of Directors for the Salem Museum and Historical Society, am I correct? 52:04 GB: Yes. 52:06 ME: Does that society have any involvement with local LGBTQ history in any way? 52:15 GB: Hmm, not that I’m aware of. I don’t think that thought has ever come to mind, really. When Doctor Rosenthal did a presentation a few weeks ago there, he was talking about public history and the LGBTQ work that you and other students were doing and certainly there was a very enthusiastic group. People asked questions for a long time, made comments and, I assume I’m just out to most people. Most people do know or they figure it out sooner or later. But that was one of those opportunities. He [Doctor Rosenthal] had said that he was a part of the LGBT community when somebody asked about the Samantha in his name, that’s what it was. A 90 year-old woman! Used to be the religion writer for the Roanoke Times, asked that question, no judgement at all. Anyway, he responded. Later I had a question and identified myself as an LGBTQ community person also. Um, but no, I don’t think it’s ever crossed anybody’s mind but I think that the board... the director would certainly be fairly receptive to it. They do try to focus on Salem though, so it’d be very hard, I think, to get Salem-specific kind of history [LGBTQ history]. I think that’d be the barrier there, so it’s not a philosophical, I don’t think it’d be a philosophical issue, more of a pragmatic one. 53:48 ME: Well, I guess, in the realm of maybe, Roanoke and Salem, the Roanoke Valley area, were there any, maybe, LGBTQ+ spaces, you know, now or back in the day that you used to go or used to enjoy going to? GB: Well, I went to The Park a lot, back in the early days. A lot of us went there, and that was neat. It was neat to have that, it always felt safe and we got to know the owners and the bartenders and all that kind of stuff and, it was good. Very colorful, it was good. I would get tired of the music after a while and tended to be somebody who left fairly early, but that’s okay. I hadn’t been in Roanoke real long when The Park opened. I think it opened around maybe about ‘80, ‘79 [1979] maybe, something like that. Other places… you know, when I lived in Old Southwest, there was a place called Hugo’s, yeah it was Hugo’s, it was a restaurant. It’s across from where the Wildflour Restaurant is now and, he was a neat guy and he opened, made the space available for showing videos, periodically, of gay themes, it’s before DVD kinds of days I think. So, big ol’ huge screen TV and stuff like that. Also [laughs] my birthday lunch was there 17 �once and Rosie O'Donnell came [everyone in room reacts surprised]. I’m not kidding, Rosie O’Donnell was there for my birthday lunch! What it was was that, she was pretty unknown then and had done a show at the [Roanoke] Civic Center and, some of the First Friday folks had somehow wrangled their way into getting backstage afterwards and, just chatting with her, they said “Oh, we’re having a birthday celebration lunch for somebody tomorrow, why don’t you come?” Told her where it was and they didn’t think she would show up but, darned if Rosie O’Donnell didn’t come to my birthday lunch! [Laughs] I hope there’s a picture of that somewhere, I don’t seem to have one. Ah… those are the only two places really, that I can think of. 56:11 ME: Was Hugo’s, was that a bar-restaurant? A…. GB: I’d say emphasis more on restaurant-slash-bar, than bar-restaurant. Fairly small, nice place. Good food as I recall, and a willingness and receptivity to doing, you know, things in support of our community. And Hugo’s was not open long, I’d say a couple years at most but it was neat to have it. And that was before the Wildflour [Restaurant] and it was just nice to have it. 56:43 ME: What years was it open, would you say? 56:45 GB: Oh, I’m gonna say, maybe ‘81 to ‘83 [1981-1983], ‘82 to ’84 [1982 - 1984] somewhere in that period. 56:55 ME: Well, we’re about winding down on our questions here. Is there any points that you’d like to discuss with us? Any stories that you have? 57:05 GB: [Laughter] You know, countless stories over the years. One of my favorites was when I lived in Old Southwest, my house faced… it was on Washington Avenue and faced Highland Park. And I would often take walks out on the park and, one day I was taking a walk and met a guy who is a neighbor I had met previously and we were chatting and he asked me where I lived. And I pointed out my house and he said “Oh, that’s a group home for women, isn’t it?” [laughter] and I said “Mmmmm, no? I have a lot of friends.” [Laughter] But, that was again at a time when it wouldn’t have been comfortable for me to come out and, if that should happen today, first of all I don’t think it would happen today. I would think everybody would just assume you know, “well, woman is a lesbian, has lots of lesbian friends coming over.” “Oh look, there’s a man! Occasionally, they come too!” [Laughter]. Uh, gosh there are just stories galore but nothing jumps out at me right now. 58:18 18 �ME: Well, I think that just about does it. Thank you so much for coming out here and we really appreciate it. 58:27 GB: So welcome. [Addresses room] do any of you have questions [laughter]? 58:29 KT: No, I just think your story’s really cool and I’m very interested. [Room laughs] 58:36 GB: I really do recommend that you come to the film [The Unlikely Story of the Lesbians of First Friday] on… 58:40 ME: Is it the 7th [of April] or… 58:40 GB: April 7th, at 5 o’clock, it’s a Sunday. 58:43 ME: That would be really fun to see that. 58:45 GB: It’s gonna be pretty amazing, I think. I’ve seen… there’s a trailer. I’ll pull up my phone and show you the trailer. 58:51 KT: Is it cool to see how it’s [the community at large] kind of more accepted now? 58:56 GB: Oh yeah… oh yeah. And you know, oh gosh, it’s so nice just to be free for the most part. 59:03 ME: Yeah. 59:04 GB: And again, you know, I’m not exactly running around, coming out. People just figure it out or I’ll say “My partner, Peggy,” or, you know, something like that. 59:15 ME: Well, thank you so much Gail. 19 �59:16 GB: Looks like we hit right at about an hour! [Laughter] [END] 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Gail Burruss Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Gail Burruss Interviewers: Michelle Eimen Interviewee: Gail Burruss Date: February 18, 2019 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 59:20 Transcription prepared by: Katie Thaxton, Michelle Eimen, Christian Delaney, Marley Gonzalez Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 28 February 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gail Burruss, Michelle Eimen, Katie Thaxton, Christian Delaney, Marley Gonzalez Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BurrussGail https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5117/SwainYoedie.MP3 bb8673b71b140970d086bde9cd7b5277 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5117/SwainYoedie.1.pdf a35f24b11c6ba4e6062677fa747b4864 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Yoedie Cleveland Swain February 25, 2019 Interviewers: Elbisa Lindov Interviewee: Yoedie Cleveland Swain Sound Check: Haleigh Ardolino Date: February 25, 2019 Location: Diva’s House of Hair, Roanoke, Virginia Transcribed by: Cameron Sammons and Nikki Phelps Duration: 1:02:17 0:00 – School, growing up in Roanoke, family (c. 1974 - 1992) 3:28 – Local gay community & gay hangouts (1990s?) 5:22 – Knowing his sexuality, not feeling the need to “come out,” relationship with father 7:46 – Romantic relationships, attitude toward relationships 14:32 – Being judged by others, religion, and acceptance 18:51 – Experiences in church: pastor, enjoying attending, how it has helped; Black churches versus gay churches 21:11 – Hatred toward gay people; helping friend after she was raped for being gay 28:39 – Ancestry, race, and identity; responses to racism and homophobia 32:32 – Black LGBTQ representation in the media 34:31 – People coming out today 36:20 – Black role models; reaction to the 2008 and 2016 presidential elections; sexism 39:13 – Attitude toward Trump presidency and the 2020 presidential election 44:33 – Opinions on current political issues, how administration’s priorities are wrong 52:19 – Pulse nightclub shooting, and paranoia living as a black, gay man 56:19 – Teaching future generations to combat hatred, defying stereotypes of gay people and black people 1:01:58 – Closing remarks 0:00 EL: Alright, so my name is Elbisa Lindov, and I’m here with Cleveland today. We are in Diva’s House of Hair. It is February the 25th at 1:04 pm, and if you can go ahead and just state your name, and where you grew up, and your schooling. 0:24 YCS: Okay, I am Yoedie Swain, called Cleveland, and I grew up here in Roanoke, Virginia. In terms of schooling, I graduated from William Fleming High School, went off to Virginia Western for two years, got an Associate’s, and moved to northern Virginia,   1   �where I attended Potomac Hair Academy, and moved back to Roanoke and completed my cosmetology training at Virginia Hair Academy. 1:00 EL: Okay, interesting. So, since you grew up here, did you know what it was like just growing up here in your childhood, like do you have anything that really stuck out to you? 1:12 YCS: Growing up in Roanoke, I’d actually say I’m fortunate. Being African-American and being gay in Roanoke, I’ve always been gay. I’ve been gay ever since I can remember. I’ve never been attracted to females. No disrespect! Only your hair, love playing with hair. I was fortunate in that aspect, in terms of growing up in this area and not being, in my opinion, disrespected, or harmed, or called names, out of my name. I was very successful in high school, very popular in high school. I ran track, and so I was always cool with the athletes. I was always cool with the cheerleaders. I was always cool. I was always the in-crowd. I was junior class president, went on to SGA [Student Government?] president my senior year. Always just so well-respected, but when I hear stories of other gay men and women and how growing up back then during that era, it used to break my heart to hear some of their stories. Especially with family acceptance. My mother, she best put it, “this is not what I would choose for you, but I love you. And so, if you’re going to be gay, just remember to love yourself, because I love you,” and I’ll never… that was something that just stuck with me, that my mom loves me. My mom doesn’t judge me, and I was just truly fortunate even with my entire family, very accepting in terms of my lifestyle. I don’t have one of those Debbie Downer or Negative Nancy moments to where “oh my word, I was so mistreated, or disrespected, and not loved.” So, one of the things I say growing up in this area for me is that I was loved, and that meant a whole lot to me. It meant a whole lot. 3:28 EL: So, would you say there was a big gay community when you were growing up? 3:35 YCS: Yes, yes. You know, believe it or not, I’ve been fortunate to grow up around gay men and women, even bisexuals, so yeah, the community is big. It’s a large community. In my earlier years, of course, I used to go to one of the biggest gay clubs here, The Park. Oh, every Friday and Saturday night I’m going, and I’m gonna dance the night away. And so, again, with gay bashing and all that type of stuff, I never witnessed any of it, but I’ve heard stories in the area, but I’ve just been one of the fortunate ones. 4:20 EL: And were there other… so I know The Park is a big one, but were there any previous gay communities or gay clubs that were around that aren’t around today? 4:29   2   �YCS: There used to be one called Backstreet, and I don’t think that it exists anymore, but it could. I was fortunate to be friends with the owners of The Park. They do the gay Pride [in the Park festival] every year, and that’s a big thing, mostly hosted in Wasena Park or Highland Park, and that’s where we would go in terms of hanging out, whether it was gay pride or not. Those were the two popular parks for us just to go hang out, walk our dogs, play tennis, volleyball, you name it. And Southwest is generally what they call the “gay community,” because a lot of gay families now exist in Southwest Roanoke. 5:22 EL: And you had mentioned before that you always knew that you were gay. So, was that, I know you didn’t have any struggles with your family with acceptance, but did you have any internal struggles within yourself? Did you feel conflicted about coming out? When did you come out? 5:36 YCS: Even in elementary school, I knew that I was gay. I knew and I understood what “gay” meant, meaning that I was attracted to the same sex. So, for me, it just seemed like that was my norm. It’s just like for someone that is straight, that’s your norm, that you’re attracted to the opposite sex. I was always attracted to the same sex. I didn’t have problems coming out because I was just me, so my personality was always accepted. So, I didn’t look at myself as being someone gay, or having to come out, because it was who I was. So, it wasn’t like, I know a lot of people come out and then they tell family and friends. Nah, I was always flamboyant. Always what they would consider the pretty boy. I didn’t have to come out. I was out. One of the things that I hear so often is “what made you gay?” It wasn’t a choice for me. It wasn’t a choice. I wasn’t molested. I went to school in boy clothes. I played, believe it or not, basketball, football, baseball, track and field. I did all of those things, so there was nothing that made me gay. I just was never attracted to females. I had a lovely mom, a very hardworking mom. My father was there at the beginning of my childhood. I didn’t have the best relationship with him, but it was nothing that… I’ll say him dealing with my lifestyle was a problem for him, but it wasn’t a problem for me. Because I had such a strong support system in terms of my grandmother and my mother and my siblings, it didn’t really matter what he thought so much. I’m not one of those ones who I hold onto it or have any type of anger or hatred toward him. I wish him well, ‘cause I’m doing well [laughter]. 7:46 EL: So, what about your dating and social life? Is there anything different from while you were growing up and now? Have things changed? Have you seen a big movement and change within the gay community? 7:58 YCS: Oh, huge! Here, I would say, growing up, the gay community, they didn’t show affection. In other words, if you were lovers, or whatever, you didn’t hold hands, you didn’t kiss in public because it wasn’t accepted. Not until I moved to Washington, D. C., I’ll never forget shopping in Georgetown. I was seeing men holding hands and showing   3   �affection, and women and women showing affection and holding hands. I was like, “oh my God!” Of course, that was a metropolitan area. Coming from a small town, where of course it wasn’t accepted. However, even though that I knew that it wasn’t accepted here as much, I never saw anything that was negative. You just knew that you don’t show affection in public. So, for me, dating, I didn’t do a lot of dating in high school. I got into my first official relationship until I was 30, believe it or not. I’m 45 now. Of course I dated prior to, but no serious, committed relationships. I’m picky, very, very picky. I’ve been picky my whole entire life. And so, for me, dating was… [long pause]… how can I put it? Dating was like I would go to dinner with you this weekend, I would go to dinner next weekend with someone else… so that’s what dating was for me. It wasn’t commitment. I wasn’t really sexually active at a young age, never desired to be. But now that I’m older, I was in a twelve-year relationship which ended, this coming November will be two years that it’s been over, and it was so stressful. It was long distance, and was very stressful, so stressful. The long distance itself was stressful. The gay relationship was not. I adored him, and he adored me. And my family adores him. His family adores me. Actually, he wasn’t “out” with his family, and that was a problem for me, because I’m like, I’m not a secret. I’m not gonna be a secret. What made me proud of him was that he first started with his mom, and he told his mom about me. I’ll never forget meeting her for the first time. She stared at me the whole time, I don’t think she blinked. I’m serious, I don’t think this lady blinked. She just stared at me and she said to me “you’re really beautiful!” and I was floored! I was like, “oh my God, his mama called me beautiful!” The whole entire weekend, I was on one hundred. I was like, oh God, she called me beautiful, and she talked to me, she was welcoming. It was a beautiful thing for him because he thought it was going to be so horrible. He thought it was going to be so bad. He just thought everyone was going to just not have anything to do with him. He’s very successful and he has his Master’s, a very educated man, and very independent. Loves his mom as I do mine, and he takes care of his mom because his mom has a lot of health issues. But with all of that being said, when he finally came out to his siblings and his friends, they were like, “okay.” It’s nothing like it used to be when you would come and say “oh, I’m gay,” and they’re like “oh my God, don’t tell anybody! You must live in the closet!” I don’t think that it’s anything like that now. I think that if someone comes out, man or woman, and says that they’re gay, “okay. Let’s move on. Next.” I don’t think that it is as bad as it has been in the past. In the past, so many people were in the closet … and I respected it. If you were in the closet, okay, that’s fine. I’ll keep your secret. But there’s nothing wrong, look at me, just look at me! But I do know that I am a little special to it because I had the acceptance from family, and friends, and love, and classmates. I just didn’t experience the negativity that a lot of them did in terms of coming out. 12:50 EL: And within that twelve-year relationship, did you have any life-learning lessons? Does that affect who you potentially date later on? Would you want to still date someone who was in the closet, or would you feel more comfortable dating someone who is already out and feels comfortable within themselves?   4   �13:06 YCS: At my age, I prefer dating someone that is out. And when I say “out,” you don’t have to go around with a shirt plastered “I’m gay.” You don’t have to announce it when you’re introducing yourself to someone, “oh, and I’m gay.” That’s not necessary. I deal with more professional men. I’m attracted to more professional men, educated men. They definitely would have to be out, that’s number one. Number two, and this is just me personally, I don’t desire a relationship after being in one for twelve years. But, if it happens, it happens. I’m not looking for it. I have so many clients that are not in relationships and desire to be in relationships, and are out here just dating and are miserable, just simply miserable. Sometimes I feel like I’m truly a counselor when I have them in the chair and then we talk outside the salon. That, you know, “Don’t allow a man to complete you.” A man does not complete me. A relationship does not complete me. I’m happy within myself, and again, if something happens, it happens, but I’m not looking for it. I’m not one of these ones who are dating multiple people until I find that special one. If it happens, it happens. 14:32 EL: That’s a good rule to stand by, actually. Being gay, that’s a very strong connection within yourself and how you identify yourself. Is there something else that closely relates to that as well? Did you find anything that… being gay… was that very inspiring for yourself, being so open and out and having such a good community base around you compared to people who don’t have that kind of support and love, did you find anything that was very memorable about that? 15:11 YCS: I think so much for me, the best way to answer is people judging you. Not wanting to be around you … or act like you got some disease because you’re gay. I didn’t experience any of that. I was fortunate if I met someone, met a client or their families or going to someone’s wedding… always well-respected. I was just truly, truly, truly, wellrespected. As I talk to other gay friends and listen to their stories, they don’t have that same story. They have a lot of sadness, a lot of bitterness. It just floors me, and all I can do is comfort them with my words and share my story that, well, fortunate for me, I didn’t experience any of that. So, there are good people out there. There are accepting people out there. For me, it’s just knowing the world is just not all bad. Not everyone has this Debbie Downer story in terms of, oh, such a negative experience. No, it’s been a beautiful experience. Being able to share that with other people, I’m known for sharing that with other people, and a lot of people, they’re just floored. Especially in African-American families, it’s really difficult to come out. They just act like it’s just the worst thing ever. You could be a thief, “we love you.” You can be a rapist, “we love you.” But being gay? Oh, no, never! Especially in what they call the Black church, predominantly African-Americans attending one church. That was horrible. “Oh, it’s a sin. You’re going to Hell. You gonna burn in Hell!” Again, that was not one of my situations. I had to teach two former pastors when I was younger that I read the Bible and there is no degree in sin. If you are a liar and you think someone being gay is the worst thing ever and it’s so unforgiveable,   5   �there’s no degree in sin whatsoever. If you’re a liar and if I’m gay and if the Bible says those two things are wrong, then guess what, we’re both going to Hell. With that being said, I never allow people to judge me. And that’s what I would teach Christians and socalled Christians. There’s no degree in sin. There’s no degree. If you’re a liar, if you’re a cheater, whatever your sin is, it’s a sin. A sin is a sin. But I know that I’m gonna be judged one day, and it’s only by God. That’s how strong my faith is, that I don’t allow men or women to judge me in any way, shape, or form, because I will be judged only on one day. I have a relationship with God, and I don’t have to shout it out to everyone. I do, as the Word says, God’s thing is, “do onto others as you would have them to do onto you,” so I love everybody. I don’t hate anybody. I accept anybody, I don’t care what it is. I don’t care what your situation is, or whatever. Even if you’ve wronged me, I love you, I’ma pray for you. I’ma pray for you. So that’s the type of person I am. 18:58 EL: So, mentioning that you have a strong relationship with God and going to church… I think you still go to church now? 19:05 YCS: Certainly. 19:06 EL: I know there’s actually some gay churches around here. 19:11 YCS: Yes. 19:12 EL: Do you go toward churches that are more with the gay culture or do you go with, as people would say, typical churches? 19:20 YCS: I belong to Loudon Avenue Christian Church, and I’ve been a member there for over 17 years now, and it’s not a gay church, but it’s an accepting church. They don’t judge, they accept gays, there have been gay couples that have joined, gay people that have joined. It’s not one of those churches where the ministry is against gays. We don’t believe in that. I have a beautiful church family. It’s an amazing church family, and I have visited gay churches, and that’s okay, but I am more about the Word, about preaching and teaching. You’ve got to minister to me. I don’t go to church just to warm up a pew. I go to church because I want to be preached to and I want to be taught. I want to learn, and that’s what I’ve been fortunate… my former pastor, he was the pastor of our church for over 33 years, and he retired two years ago. Let me tell you something, oh my God, he was amazing. I think he actually taught at Roanoke College as well. Bill Lee. We call him Billy, but it’s William Lee. Dr. Lee is amazing! He is amazing. It was Sundays to where I just couldn’t wait to go to church. During the week, I “oh, I can’t wait to go to church!” If I was having a bad week or challenging week or whatever, I just couldn’t wait because I knew that he had a word. I knew that God was   6   �really utilizing him, and so it was fortunate for me. But I don’t have anything against gay churches, I just go to a church and I have a church family that I love and adore, and they love and adore me. I served as trustee for four years at my church, so I’ve had a big position in the church. As them trusting me with keys, the alarm systems, the business and workings of the church, and I loved it. I absolutely love it. 21:11 EL: Okay, cool. That’s actually really interesting. I know you said that you didn’t personally experience any negativity, but did you have maybe like a close friend that was maybe closeted, or they were out, and they experienced these very negative things? I know you think you heard stories about it, did something ever scare you? Were you ever scared that something was ever going to happen to you, or did you feel like you couldn’t be out in public because you were worried about this situation happening? 21:47 YCS: When you… as we know how gay bashing still exists. How people go into clubs, gay clubs and shoot up the club, or they catch you by yourself and beat someone up, and that type of thing. That has always been in the back of my mind. It’s always been in the back of my mind that someone would actually harm me because of what they don’t understand. And feel like, “oh, we’re gonna beat his butt,” or “we’re gonna kill him because he’s gay.” Always in the back of my mind. But one of the things in my faith in God [is] that I can’t live in fear. So, I can’t let that stop me from walking out being who I am because of fear. Even though I know that it happens, I’ve had some friends that have been beaten up. I’ve had friends, and not just strangers, family members beating them up because of them being gay. I know of a situation with a female friend of mine that, she was actually raped by a family member thinking that he could make her straight, by raping her. This is what this is about. So sad. I spent weeks with her. Weeks, and when I say weeks, I spent weeks with her making sure she’s getting the counseling and the help and bringing him to justice, and she did. You have got to tell your story. Her family, believe it or not, were not supporting her in terms of bringing him to justice. I’m like, “he raped her!” And me having conversations with her family members, I said “I am sorry, I want to support her, and you all should be the first ones that are supporting her, but you’re not. But I will.” And we’re still great friends to this day. Of course, he was found guilty and served a prison sentence for raping her. It has empowered her now. She is one of the strongest women that I know now, because someone was there to support her, letting her know that there’s nothing wrong with being gay. And what he did to you, first of all, not accepting your choice in terms of your sexuality… and she was a child, so he raped her, but it was molestation because she was a child. But you overcame that, and you are fabulous now. She’s always singing my praises in terms of me being there for her because she was suicidal at one point. She was thinking “maybe I should just kill myself.” I’m like, “kill yourself for what?” I said, “then you won’t be here. We won’t be friends. I’ll be minus a friend.” So, I’m always throwing a little humor in there. She’s always telling the story now. She can speak on it now. She has no problems with it, it doesn’t bother her anymore because she overcame   7   �it. I was glad that I was there because if I was ever going through something like that, I would want some type of support system. I would need some type of support system. So, with a lot of the stories I’ve heard over the years, in terms of whether it’s family, friends, coworkers, whatever, not accepting someone’s sexuality, I think it is absolutely horrible. Horrible. Why do you care about what I do behind closed doors? Or, even if I’m in public and I show affection to my partner, why do you care? You should not care. I think that people need to start focusing more on self and not others in that respect. I think if you focus on self a whole lot more than worrying about who’s sleeping with who or who’s in love with who, you’d be a whole lot better person. You’d be a better person. 26:07 EL: So, talking about that hatred, because I personally would always be curious, where do you think this hatred toward people who are interested in the same sex came from? 26:19 YCS: It’s been taught. It’s just like racism. We are all born pure. We’re pure. It’s what people teach us, and what we grow up learning that is wrong. If you have this family that doesn’t believe in someone being gay, it’s just horrible… you were taught that. Someone taught you that that was wrong. Even as Christians, the Word says that being gay is a sin. I don’t argue that Word. I don’t argue that Word. Because I have a relationship with God and God knows who I am. They say, “well, do you feel that God made you gay?” I’m not going to say that either. It was a choice. It was a choice. I can’t help that, you know, for instance, in terms of colors, like if I’m going to go buy a shirt. I’m not partial to blue, so I’m not going to buy a blue shirt. I can’t help that I prefer a white shirt or red shirt over blue. It’s my choice. So, I make choices and I’m responsible for my choices. Again, I don’t think it’s a choice of being gay, I am gay. So, with all of that being said… wait a minute, what was your question, because I got on the topic of clothes and shopping, ‘cause I’m a shopper, honey [laughter]. I’m sitting here thinking to myself “wait a minute, I do like red! I do like white! Ooo, spring is coming, I need new clothes!” [laughter] 27:58 EL: Just about where you think this hatred is coming from. 28:02 YCS: Taught. It’s taught. The hatred comes from people teaching that. It’s just like in terms of racism. You’re taught, white supremacists, KKK, all of that stuff is taught. If we stop putting that negativity into our children, it will die, it will go away. But as long as we have people teaching their children to hate, whether it’s race, or whether it’s someone being gay, or whether it’s someone being poor, whatever the situation may be. As long as people are teaching that, it’s not gonna go anywhere. 28:39 EL: I know you said that people weren’t being judgmental of you being gay, and you brought up being proud of being gay and being African-American, so did you see more   8   �racism because you are African-American rather than gay? Did that affect you in any way in how you presented yourself as well? 28:58 YCS: It was a double thing in being black and being gay. It was like, “oh, I’m black. And I’m gay.” Growing up in America, being black and gay was just like two of the worst things. Where I was so fortunate, as I would educate people, my great-grandfather was Caucasian, and my great-grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee Indian. My grandmother was Caucasian and Indian. No African-American bloodline. My grandfather was a full-blooded Indian, so my mom is actually Caucasian and Indian, but my mom looks like an African-American woman. My grandmother did not. My grandmother looked like a Caucasian woman. But my mother identified herself as an African-American woman, even though there is no African-American blood in her, but because of her skin color, this is how crazy, what we grew up in… because of her skin color, she identified as a black woman. And my father, of course, that’s is where the African-American bloodline comes in for me. So, I have African-American, Caucasian, Indian, so all of that is in me, so I didn’t really care that, “oh, I have white in my family. Oh, I have Indian in my family. Oh, I have black in my family.” I just identified myself as being black and I was fine with it. I’m an American first. I am an American first. That’s what we were taught in our house, that we were Americans. We weren’t black. We weren’t poor, or rich, or middle class. We are Americans, and that’s what we were taught. I was fortunate, and that’s what I teach a whole lot of people. Even growing up in this community, I really didn’t experience racism. If someone was being racist towards me, I didn’t know it, ‘cause I would have confronted it. I was that type, I was confrontational. That’s why a whole lot of people love and adore me, is that I’m confrontational. I will let you have it. I mean, I will let you have it. I’m the type of person that if you whispered the F word towards me, “what did you say?” I was the type of person to be confrontational. Never physical, thank God, never got to be physical, but I would confront you on your ignorance. Why do you feel like you didn’t hurt my feelings by calling me that F word? You know, you’re fat. You’re ugly. I didn’t have that mean spirit. It was not necessary. I just wanna try to help you help yourself. Why would you think that you’re gonna have me to cry or crawl up under a rock because you said that name calling? Or if you use the N word. I never gave words that type of power. I think that if people, in general, would stop giving words power, like if someone was to call you the N word, yes, it’s disrespectful and I know what you mean behind it, and if you call me the F word, I know what you mean behind it, but guess what, words do not hurt me. I hate to see that you’re hurting yourself and living in such, you know, misery in terms of thinking that being ugly and mean-spirited to someone that you’re gonna break them, you’re gonna break their spirit. Never happened with me. Never happened with me. 32:31 EL: I guess I kinda wanna go in this range, since like you know we are very, you know, I think people are very influenced by social media and stuff like that. Was there anyone in Hollywood that was maybe a role model for you coming out? Do you think there should   9   �be more representation especially in the African [-American] community and being gay, do you think there's something that we could do to just represent that community more? 32:58 YCS: I think that like social media and television, it's coming out and we're seeing it now. You're seeing that... on shows where people, they come out. And I will never forget, I think it was last Monday I watched, I think it was Chicago MD. It was the first time I've seen it. An African-American intern. He was an intern and a gay patient had come in the ER and he was sick… and he was actually flirting with a straight physician. He was flirting with him and the physician kept it very professional. And him and the intern, the African-American intern, talked later about the incident. And so he was like “you know that man was just so disrespectful and dot dot dot dot dot,” and he's like “and I'm not gay and I can't believe that he would do that, he thought that I was gay.” The African-American intern says to him, “Well, I feel the same way when females are hitting on me.” And the doctor looked at him like, “what are you talking about?” He says, “I'm gay.” And the doctor’s like, “oh I didn't know, I'm sorry. I didn’t know.” He said, “what are you sorry for? That's just who I am.” He didn't look gay. You would have never thought that he was gay. He didn’t have no gay mannerisms. He looked like he would be into women, but no, he was gay. And you have a whole lot of people now coming out and living, you know, their life. One of, I have a new stylist and he's been with me now for a little over two years. And one of my clients she says “ooh, I have a granddaughter that I think that you need to meet. She would… I think you all would hit it off.” So he said to her, “oh I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm gay.” So but, but she didn't hear that [laughter]. She did actually did not hear him say that he was gay. She was like “oh, you're in college and she's in college and I... just you know, I'm gonna get your number. Is it okay if I give her your number?” He says “ma’am, I am gay. I'm not into women.” “Oh! Oh! [shocked]” Then she turned to me, “oh he's like you!” [laughter] And this is an older client. So with that being said, people now don't mind telling you, “oh I'm gay. I don't have to be in the closet.” And I think that in terms of like Hollywood, social media, it's out there now and it's really out. I don't think that it is bad now because one of the things that… I have several clients that are principals and teachers and one of my teachers, she was like, “Lord. Child. All these gay kids in school! They're coming out in high school. They're coming out in middle school. They're coming out even in elementary school.” So but it's now it's more accepted. I feel like the times have truly changed, simply because of people and on television in the media that are openly gay and don't mind talking about them being gay. So I think it's gotten a whole lot better. So, no one really [who]] I looked up to, because I look up to men and women, whether you were gay, straight, or whatever the situation, and I don't even care what your color was. I had several role models growing up. I'll never forget one of the biggest, I would say, growing up was Oprah [Winfrey]. A black woman on television. A black woman with her own talk show?! A black woman giving money away like that?! A successful black woman?! So Oprah, if I had to pinpoint anyone, was Oprah. As an adult, it would be   10   �Barack Obama. I'll never forget when he won, I was in my home, I built a home down in Vinton from ground up, and I'll never forget going home and watching his accepting speech. And I stood in front of the television crying and sobbing like a baby. You would have thought that somebody had died but I was just so… for the first time, I was so happy to really, truly be an American. That we have come this far. That finally there is a man of color in the White House. Now, there's still work to do, because I feel like that a woman should have been in the White House years ago, and of course I'm a hardcore Democrat. I really believed that it was Hillary Clinton's place. For some reason, God seemed differently. And a lot of people say, “oh you think that God put Donald Trump in the White House?” Yes, I certainly do believe he put him in the White House so that we could recognize that there is still a lot of hatred and a lot of ugly in this world and it needs to be addressed and we need to work on it. So, with that being said, it is now time for a woman to be in the White House. It's time. She should have been. Hillary Clinton was more qualified than any candidate that has ever ran for president. Why? It's just like the same thing with women in churches. To where, “oh, I can't have no female minister. Can't no woman preach to me. I don’t want no female minister.” Why not? And my reply to that whenever I hear that negativity in terms of a woman shouldn't be a president or a woman shouldn’t be a minister or even when women shouldn't be a doctor, dot dot dot dot… Why, when we all came up out of women? We all came up out of a woman. So how can you be so negative about women? So that's the same thing with, you know, being gay, being black, being a woman, dot dot dot dot dot. We just need to get better. We need to do better. We need to know better. We need to act better and teach better than what we've been doing in the past. 39:13 EL: So you talked about the current administration. I know Trump and Pence, they have vocally [expressed] where they stand on gay issues and gay rights. Do you feel like we went backwards in a way? Do you feel like this coming up next election [in 2020], do you feel as Trump, do you think he'd still be in the office or do you feel that we would get a woman president, as you said? Do you see a more positive movement? Because I know recently, when we talk about Democratic [Party] issues they’re like, “Hillary shouldn't have been the candidate, it should have been Bernie Sanders.” What do you feel? 39:48 YCS: I feel, first, I do feel that again, Hillary was more qualified. That's number one. Number two, I feel that Bernie Sanders and his followers failed Hillary. He didn't get behind her. He didn't motivate his people like Hillary did when she lost against Barack Obama. She was very positive. She worked in the administration. She was very vocal. Bernie Sanders is not. I think that because now that Bernie Sanders is back in the race and his followers, it’s going to cause us to lose the election again. You know, Bernie Sanders, you know, God help him. You’re too old! Sit down. And then you know a lot of people are behind Joe Biden and want him to run. You too old! Sit down. I'm tired of the old people being in office. We need youth, and we need a woman representative. So I want to be behind a woman regardless. I'm going to back a woman no matter what because I think it's time. Not because she is so much a woman, if she's got great issues   11   �and she wants to turn this country around, I'm going to be behind a woman, period. Because this country needs to be turned around because we did go backwards with Pence and Trump. We did. Their backwards way of thinking, and I always have said that if President Obama did an ounce of what Trump has done, they would have impeached him by now. He wouldn't have gone as long as he did in terms of two terms. He would've been gone day one. And it wouldn't have taken two years to do no investigating and all of that type of stuff. He would have been gone only because he was a black man. Period. So yes, the current administration is trying to take us back. But the thing about it was trying to take us back in terms of being racist and anti-gay, dot dot dot dot dot... You're not going to win. There's too many of us, there's too many of us, there's too many of us, we're too fabulous, we're too successful. So it's not going to happen when it comes down to Blacks. We’re too successful, honey. We're rich, honey. There’s Black billionaires and millionaires and a whole lot more educators. So you're not taking us back in reference to, you know, “oh, we should be slaves and on some plantation,” that's not going to happen darling. In terms of gays, you're not going to beat it out of us. You know you're not going to kill us all. It's… we're here to stay. And if America just focuses on being Americans no matter if you're a woman, you're a man, you're gay, you're straight, you're black, you're green, orange. We would really be the best country, and right now I don't think that we are the best country. I'm not really proud to go somewhere and tell someone that I'm an American. I was in this, in terms of being an American, I was in Canada. I was in Toronto and I was getting a manicure and pedicure done. And so the lady said to me, “oh my goodness, where are you from?” I said, “I’m from the U.S.,” and she said, “don't tell nobody that.” [laughter] She actually told me to tell people when I met them to say I’m from Trinidad, I look like I was from Trinidad. “Tell people you’re from Trinidad.” I said, “oh no I'm from the U.S.!” Now I think if I go back to Canada I will tell them I'm from Trinidad or somewhere else, some island somewhere [laughter], because I'm not proud of how America is currently, and who our leader is, you know, who our Commander in Chief is, and how he lies, and cheats, and is just, he's just a mess. He's just simply a mess. We have gone back as Americans. We've taken a step back, so we need to not only clean up that mess, and we must move forward, and we must teach, and we must preach, and we must do a whole lot better than what we are currently doing. 43:46 EL: I think for me personally... were you, were you shocked? Because I know I was shocked to find out the election results with Obama and such a forward movement that he had, you would think we're going on a right track and everything like that. Do you feel as, for you personally, did it affect you in who you are and how you represent yourself with them? I know you said you haven't encountered any negative people, but if you did encounter someone who supports Trump and his values and everything like that, how would you think you would overcome that or show your representation, show why his pathway to leading our country, like doing things good for our government is the wrong way to do it? 44:33   12   �YCS: I actually have clients that are Trump supporters. I'll never forget one, I had a male client and he's a strong Trump supporter, and he's a black man on top of that [laughter]. So for me, it’s one of those things where they say “oh you're black and you gay. Oh my God.” So with him, “you're black and you love Trump? Oh my God!” So of course, that was my first, “oh my God. Oh, another Trump supporter. Jesus Christ. This is gonna make an interesting visit while he's here,” because my ladies started pouncing on him. “How could you support him? You're black. How could you support his racism?” And he does not believe that Trump's racist. I really believe that his followers, not all of them are racist. A lot of them they believe in him and that's why he's still there. And so it goes to show that America still thinks like Trump. And Pence. They support them, they're behind them. I don't know how we can be behind something like that. It was devastating to me when Hillary lost. I kept saying it was stolen. And now to know that Russia had interfered in the campaign. It was taken from her. It was stolen. So we've now got another country interfering in America. How dare. We're supposed to be the best. We're supposed to be the best. And so when he says that “I’m going to make America great again.” America was great before you. That's another lie. You've made America worse, [rather] than making America great. It's like with the wall that he talks about building and immigrants are not just coming through across the border. They are flying into America. They come by plane, train, you know, highway. So it's just not the border. You want to spend all that money on the border when we have college students, such as yourselves, in debt, in severe debt. I've got this one client who owes over 90 some thousand dollars. I know that some may owe more, some may owe less. I'm like, “ninety thousand dollars for a Bachelor’s? Girl, bye! You've got to be kidding me!” And so it was just stories like that. And when you have the elderly that have to make decisions on healthcare or their bills. “Well, I got to keep a roof over my head, but I can't afford my medication.” I think that’s horrible. And we want to talk about building a wall. And you have still homelessness that exists. You know, people starving. Then with the border alone and you’re separating women and men from their children. Girl, let me tell you something. I think I would've lost my mind. When I look back on that I was never taken away from my mom or housed, in cages and whatnot. I could not imagine that. Could you all imagine, something like that happening to yourself? I never lived through these times; when I would hear about stories about segregation and slavery... dot dot dot. Well thank the Lord I wasn't, you know, I didn't live through that era, but now I'm living through this era to where you're separating children and their parents. How devastating. That's going to stick with that child for the rest of their lives. I pray that they overcome it and be productive. But look at what we're doing. And it's like every day in the news something crazy. It’s just like the football player– 48:27 HA: Kaepernick? 48:28 YCS: No, the owner of the football team that just won the Super Bowl– 48:39 EL: The Patriots?   13   �48:41 YCS: Yes. Yes. The Patriots owner, running a prostitution ring... what in the world? Girl. Give me millions, honey. I will show you what you do with millions and that's not what you do with your money, running prostitution rings and even during the Super Bowl. I learned on the news. I didn't even know this in terms of the human trafficking, but especially children, you know they’re using these young girls as prostitutes. Are you sick? I'm like, I was floored. Oh my God, are you serious? Make America great? America is sick. You all are prostituting children. Letting one man after another man take advantage of a woman. What is this? And you want to build a wall. In terms of building the wall, no they don't want to address gun control. I don't have a problem with someone owning a gun. Maybe two. But I don’t, what do you call [it], the automatic… the automatic rifles, you know, that keep on continuing to shoot. I can't think of the name. This just shows you how much I'm not really into guns. But I think that it's crazy for you to own stuff like that. What are you going to kill? Even for hunters who are out there hunting deer. I'm against that… but hunt yourself on. But hunters out there, you don't need all automatic weapons and what not. For what? No one's doing anything. So with gun control, they're going in and shooting up churches. They're shooting up schools, clubs. You know, what about that? That's the real emergency. If we want to talk about emergency, that's the real emergency. Research in terms of diseases. I've got one of my clients who's battling Alzheimer’s and it just breaks my heart. It really breaks my heart to what her family is going through because it has really turned her family upside down in terms of the disease. That's an emergency. Why not put more money into research? So I go on and on and on about that Trump. Number 45. [Laughter] But no. It really pains me that possibly he could get another term and that the hatred, and the rise in racism and anti-gay could possibly be growing. And I don't worry about myself so much because at my age I don't worry. But I'm worried about our young children having to come up and grow up with this. Now, it's like “oh, girl you gotta be in the closet. Boy you better stay in the closet. Oh, you oughtta be ashamed of being black. Oh, black is horrible. It's a horrible thing to be of color.” No, no it's not. So I'm praying to God. I'm praying, praying, praying, praying that America will get back on track. We need to get back on track because we've been doing, we have grown as a country in terms of racism, in terms of anti-gay, and dot dot dot. But I just feel like with this current administration, we're going backwards, and we shouldn't. We shouldn't. 52:09 EL: So you focused a lot about gun control and you talked about shooting in schools and clubs. Especially, I think it was in Orlando, was it the Pulse shooting? 52:18 YCS: Yes. 52:19 EL: When you heard about that, did you think there was something, with our administration, do you feel there was something affecting that? Or do you think there   14   �was a reason why this guy chose this club, a gay club, to shoot up, and how did you feel watching and hearing the news about that?1 52:40 YCS: First of all, that is heartbreaking. No matter where it is, whether it's at a club, whether it's at a church, school, it breaks my heart. Up under this current administration, I think that they are giving them the okay card to come out. Be a white supremacist. Be a Ku Klux Klan member. Charlottesville was a perfect example that now this current administration is teaching “y’all come on out. You all don't have to hide, and you don't have to… you know… Do what you want to do.” I'll never forget when Trump was even running before becoming president, that he was like “punch him in the mouth,” or do this and do that. Oh my, are you serious? And to see people when someone like a white supremacist, when they get in trouble when they get caught how people do a GoFundMe page to raise money for them to have legal representation. Are you serious? It makes me more, now, paranoid than I have been in my whole entire life, up under this administration. I am now paranoid in terms of I don't think I really want to go a gay club. Going to church, I'm a little paranoid even being in church. Like, is someone going to shoot me in the back of the head because one, I'm black and I'm in a black church? To actually live this way, now, it's sad. It saddens me that I'm a little bit more paranoid, but it's not going to stop me from living. It's not going to stop me from going to a gay club. It's not gonna stop me from going to church. I can't live in fear. But, I'm more paranoid than I've been growing up, believe it or not. And so that's sad, that I've been on this earth for 45 years and in the last past couple of years I'm now more paranoid than I have ever been. 54:52 HA: If I may, do you have any hope? Do you think that we can move together, in the next whenever? 54:53 YCS: It’s gonna take a while. Yeah. Oh yes, I do believe in it. I do believe that we're going to get better. America will become great again. You know, because when he says he's going to make America great. Not the way that you're going about it. That's not making America great. I do believe that at some point in time it will get better but it's going to take some time, because as long as right now, we've got people teaching their children hatred. You know. It's gonna take a minute. It's going to really take a minute. We may not see it, our generation… you all are a whole lot younger than I am. You all may not even get to see it, until you're a senior, you know, at some point. But it's gonna take some time. But I think that we're capable. I think that we're better. We’re better than hatred. You know we're better than the racism and anti-gay. We're better. We're better than that. 55:47                                                                                                             1  Note  that  the  Pulse  nightclub  shooting  occurred  in  June  2016,  prior  to  Donald  Trump’s   election  to  the  presidency.       15   �EL: And how do you feel like we could combat that? I know you say that it would take a long time and I believe you. I think it would take a long time just to have this equality that everyone should have. What do you think, we as a society now, like someone my age and your age, what do you think that we could do here to promote gay awareness or the African-American community? What do you think that we could do to show positivity, counteract those negative thoughts that people have? 56:19 YCS: I think that one is teaching. Why is that because of the color of my skin that I'm better? Yet I'm not. You're not. We're equal. So first, is teaching in reference to race. In terms of the anti-gay, why should it matter who I love, who I choose to love? Why does that matter to you? Because you don't agree with it, why does that matter? You know. So we need to teach, we need to teach those things. And if we teach, I do believe that if we teach, especially our children, now, and forever, that it will get a whole lot better. But it's in terms of teaching. In terms of “why is this little black girl less than this little white girl. Why?” Because of the color of her skin? That's ignorance. It's a lot of ignorance. And I actually will, in terms of the N word, that believe it or not, if you know what the N word means, it's ignorance. So there’s a lot of Caucasians that are the N word, so we need to flip it, because you are the Ns, because you're so ignorant. Not all of course, but those who think that way. So you are the Ns. So I turn it around. Oh, you N. Oh you are the N. And you're so ignorant, so ignorant. So that in terms of race. In terms of sexuality… a lot of times, we gay people were stereotyped as pedophiles. That was attached to us. Oh, I can't leave my child alone with... because he's gay. Can’t leave my son there, or I can't leave my daughter with so-and-so because she's gay, she might try something with my child. We're not pedophiles. I'm sure there may be gay pedophiles but being gay does not make you a pedophile. I have never. I think that's one of the sickest things, adults taking advantage of children. Thank God that didn't happen to me. I'm so grateful. But I know of people that it has happened to. Thank God it did not happen to me. But it's not just gay people. Again, I'm sure there’s gay pedophiles. But, that's been one of the things that's been grouped with us. You know, I have raised two nephews and currently still raising a niece. I've got a nephew that graduated last year from college has his bachelor’s and has applied to three law schools. I've been there since day one. His father was not. But I was. Day one and this is what a gay man did. I got my nephew through college and without owing one dollar because there's money out there. That's another thing I tried to teach. I have got now a nephew that is graduating as a senior, who's graduating not only as a senior but in having his associate’s because he did dual enrollment. Now I have a niece that's graduating from kindergarten and she's reading novels. She's currently reading novels. So that's what we do. So we're not pedophiles, you know. Even though I don't have any children, but I am a role model. A positive role model. And my nephews, you know, growing up, they're very macho. They’re like, “that's my uncle. That's my uncle.” When we moved him in… because again, I'm very flamboyant. So, when I was moving him in, some of his friends was like, “is that your uncle?” He was like, “yeah that's my uncle. What about him?” “Oh is he gay?” “Yeah, he’s gay. He sure is. Been gay his whole   16   �entire life.” And so he’s teaching them, “yeah, I'm not ashamed of my uncle. You don't know, my uncle’s really been my father.” And so he has to teach those because of the little macho guys that, you know, have been taught, that, you know, being gay is wrong. So that's just letting you know this is where we need to be in terms of teaching our children that it does not matter that I'm gay. I'm successful. He will tell people in a minute, “my uncle has owned his business for over 22 years.” You know, and I have. I've been in the industry now for 25 and I've owned my own business now for 22 years. I’m very successful. I've been very, very successful. Being a black man and owning a business versus selling drugs. Oh, he's a black man. If he's driving something this, if he's driving something that, he's got to be a drug dealer. When I moved into a predominantly all white neighborhood and built my home and I moved in, both neighbors on the right and the left to me came to me, and it's like “can we ask you something without offending you?” I said sure. “What's your nationality?” I said I'm black. “Oh.” I said why? “We just thought you was something else, we didn't know that you, we didn't think, neither one of us thought you were black.” Are you serious? I’m like oh God, where did I move to? God. Lord. Where did I move to? So the ignorance, it’s the pure ignorance. Why does it matter what my nationality is? If you prick me, I'm going to bleed the same color that you would. 1:01:58 HA: Well, we're at the 60 minutes. 1:02:00 EL: Oh wow. Okay. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story with us and taking the time to sit down with and talk with us about this. 1:02:07 YCS: You’re welcome. Certainly, certainly. 1:02:10 HA: It was fun. I loved hearing you talk. 1:02:12 YCS: Come by anytime. 1:02:14 HA: I do need a haircut! [END]   17   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Yoedie Cleveland Swain Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Yoedie Cleveland Swain Interviewer: Elbisa Lindov Interviewee: Yoedie Cleveland Swain Date: February 25, 2019 Location: Diva’s House of Hair Total Duration: 1:02:17 Transcription prepared by: Cameron Sammons and Nikki Phelps Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Yoedie Cleveland Swain, Elbisa Lindov, Haleigh Ardolino, Cameron Sammons, Nikki Phelps Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SwainYoedie https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5118/ChattinRiley.MP3 9857e7a42f37acf4e3815ffd4ad40df5 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5118/ChattinRiley.1.pdf 29533f3acbd800b64d87890eb64dd02b PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Riley Chattin February 22, 2019 Interviewers: Jillian Barnard (Aeryn McMurtry also present) Interviewee: Riley Chattin Date: February 22, 2019 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 221 College Lane, Salem, Virginia Transcription prepared by: Becca Horton, Alanna Higdon, Catherine Cone, Aeryn McMurtry & Jillian Barnard Total: 57:35 0:00 = childhood in Salem, Virginia (through the end of high school in 1991) 1:27 = coming out as a lesbian to his mom (1990); getting disowned and experiencing homelessness (1991) 6:09 = School-age activities: Girl Scouts; high school athletics; considering joining the military 9:08 = attending Virginia Western Community College and Hollins University (early 1990s) 13:34 = doing an internship with GLSEN; working for Planned Parenthood; operating an LGBT bookstore; religious beliefs; working with people with HIV/AIDS 20:18 = owning and operating an LGBT bookstore, Out Word Connections, in Roanoke (20022004); reasons for the store’s closure 27:01 = more on Out Word Connections (2002-2004); reflections on the Wasena Park police sting that targeted gay male cruising (1998) 32:07 = time with OUTRight, an LGBT youth organization (2000-2005); and Planned Parenthood, providing ‘safe sex’ education 40:12 = coming out as transgender (c. 2011-2012) and the thoughts and feelings that accompanied that 51:55 = work now as a Spiritual Director 55:31 = advice for someone who’s contemplating transitioning 56:06 = qualities that make an ideal ally to a transgender individual 0:00 [Testing Sound] 1 �0:05 JB: Alright, this is Jillian Barnard interterviewing Riley Chattin, is that correct? 0:09 RC: That’s correct. 0:12 JB: Okay. It is Friday, February 22nd, we are in Fintel Library. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today. To start off, could you tell us a little bit about your childhood? 0:27 RC: Oh, gosh. My childhood. I grew up in—I don’t know—I grew up in Salem. My dad was a police officer, my mom was a hairdresser and she went to school to be a nurse, and I have a sister that is four years younger. I got a dog when I was in the second grade and she was so beautiful, the only thing I could think to name her was Rose because I thought roses were so beautiful, but she also looked like a fluffy ball of fur so her name was Fluffy [laughter]. I lived there until I graduated. I lived there until 1991. 1:18 JB: Gotcha. 1:19 RC: I don’t know how specific you want. 1:22 JB: No, that’s great. So then after 1991 where’d you find yourself? 1:27 RC: Anywhere but Salem [laughter]. I still try not to come to Salem. I was grumbling about having to come here for this. I moved to Roanoke City. Initially I was homeless, so I was living with my then-girlfriend in Vinton because she had moved back home with her family after trying to live on her own for a little while, and enjoying partying too much. I think I’d broken up with someone. So then I lived in Roanoke for probably the rest of the time since I’ve left Salem. 2:10 JB: And you said something just now that you were homeless for a little bit? 2:16 RC: Yeah, so I came out to my parents as a homosexual and—well, my mom. My parents were divorced—in November of 1990 and probably picking a couple of nights before a birthday was 2 �not the best idea, but, you know, you don’t have timing ideas when you’re a teenager. I was just a few weeks away from being 18 and so everything was ignored for a little bit until around the holidays and then she didn’t want me there on Christmas Eve so I went and slept on my Dad’s sofa where my Dad’s wife lived because he was working in Richmond and was commuting back and forth at the time. So I stayed there for a couple nights and then I went back home and then I was there for… I returned back to our home in Salem, which is about a mile west of the high school, probably about three miles from here, and you know, I don’t know what the issue was but one day my mom was in a snit and called the police and said “I don’t want this garbage here anymore.” And I was in my room at the time and saw the blue lights coming through the blinds and I thought, “Wow, she really called the police” and they were really nice. They said, “You know, don’t make this any harder than it has to be, just get something and, you know, maybe after things cool off you can come back.” I went back with a police escort to be able to get as much of my personal belongings as I could, but didn’t go back. 4:21 JB: Gotcha. So thereafter that you talked about kind of what did you do after that whole ordeal? 4:32 RC: Well that night I slept in the car because I didn’t know where to go. And that was before cell phones, so you had to old-school dial, and you woke up everybody if you called. So I slept in the car and called my girlfriend the next day. She had come out years earlier—and, oh that was before transition I guess I should reference [laughter]—I was living a life female-bodied at the time. I recognize that can be confusing for people, it’s like, “Wait, wait, what’s with this guy?” She had come out years earlier to her parents and had already gone through that whole [thing]. They’d worked through it, kind of thing. So, you know, her mom was like, “come here,” so I stayed there for a couple nights, then was able to get an apartment after a couple nights because it was a little wonky, cause I didn’t have credit, I had just turned 18, so she had agreed to cosign which I was grateful for. 5:51 JB: So then kinda taking a step back for a second, during your childhood, youth, and growing up so to speak, did you have any hobbies or any organizations or anything that really spoke to you during your developmental years? 6:09 RC: Well, I was a Girl Scout for a number of years. My dad and I did all of the Girl Scout badges together, it was really kind of fun. I think there’s only a few of them that we didn’t do. They were things that we couldn’t do in this area or couldn’t do easily, [they] involved the ocean or something, you know, I can’t remember what they were. Gosh, that’s so many years ago. So I did the Girl Scouts in two years. Probably should have paced that out, I think it’s supposed to be 3 �three years. So I did the Girl Scouts. I really enjoyed the Scouts, and I played softball until I got to high school and then I played until the 10th grade and I broke my collarbone and I was a little skittish after that diving for a ball. So, I guess I lost the nerve because it was a freak accident, a really freak accident, I tripped over my glove. It was… 7:09 JB: Happens. 7:10 RC: …yeah, yeah, it’s one of those I think back and go, “What was I doing really?” [laughter] I did most sports in high school. I played basketball and volleyball and I did indoor and outdoor track. In the 10th grade year I got most improved player… no, it was 11th grade year I got most improved player for the track team. When you break your collarbone and you only do a few meets because I was playing softball—rec softball—and doing track, and I got most improved my junior year and most valuable player in my senior year. And I thought I was going to go into the military, but that was about the time they were doing the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” thing and I recognized… my basketball coach was really, really, really thoughtful and I didn’t know then because I came out to her years later, and she said, “I know how you are, and you will not be able to keep your opinions to yourself. So go spend two years at community college so that [you] can go test in to be an officer.” And I think she was thinking, “and you’ll come out in the process.” [laughter] I didn’t go into the military though. I really thought in high school I was gonna be career military, spend the rest of my life in there. Thankfully, I didn’t because I do have—if there’s an injustice, I get… it’s really hard for me, my brain will boil if I… 9:07 JB: That’s a good trait to have. 9:08 RC: I bite my tongue, so yeah, it’s probably a good thing I didn’t go. Good advice there. I did end up going to Virginia Western [Community College], eventually went to Hollins University which is always really interesting now, going for an interview in this area because most people know it’s a women’s college. And I’ve gotten the “So you went there for your undergraduate?” Yep. And then don’t really offer anything more and I go “yes, I did.” “How did that work?” “I just took classes there.” And if they ask, I suppose… but we’re in the South. People are more polite. 9:51 JB: Yeah. 9:51 4 �RC: So yeah, that’s always interesting. I need to get a Master’s or something [laughter]. That kinda trumps the other one. They notice that one first. So yeah. I guess that covers that part. So in the process I came out and yeah, so I did all of that on my own. 10:18 JB: Did you enjoy your time at Hollins? 10:20 RC: I did. Truly. It gave me a piece of paper. There’s an Indigo Girls song called “Closer to Fine.” “I spent four years, now I’ve got a piece of paper and I’m free.” So it gave me a piece of paper that says I can get an education, that really is all that it says. Because I don’t use it. I had wanted to be a teacher and I was doing my teacher internship, and it was the same year—again, the injustice—the same year they were starting to implement the punishment for not passing the SOLs [standards of learning], well before they had the SOLs and this was the first year that they were implementing the punishment. And there was a student that had failed—apparently it’s changed a little bit since then—and you know this is where I think this is where people listening to what the struggles are with people. And so there was a student in the class where I was doing this semester-long internship who was, I think, like the salutatorian of their high school, I think that’s the second in line? 11:34 JB: Yeah. 11:35 RC: …yeah, and had been accepted to Duke for pre-med, was going that summer to do this crash-course of a bunch of classes and they didn’t pass their English SOL so they had to go to summer school and I remember the student coming in and going, “My whole life is ruined and they won’t let me retake it.” I think now you can test out of it, and you just have to pay for it, the summer class, but you can test out of it again. And I remember going, “The hell if I wanna be a part of this, like this has ruined this child’s life. This is not what I thought being a teacher was.” So I didn’t finish that. Had I had a really affirming advisor they would have said, “This is how you do this,” you know, but they didn’t. 12:26 JB: So the punishment for not passing the SOL was summer school? 12:31 RC: At that time, yeah. Well, they had to go to a special intensive thing for the SOLs and at the end of it you retake the SOL, and if you don’t pass it, I don’t know, I guess you have to repeat the whole thing again, I don’t know. 5 �12:45 JB: Wow. 12:45 RC: But I just remember that one part and just going, “No, no. I can’t do that.” [laughter] 12:52 JB: Because I grew up with SOLs, too, because I’m from Virginia, so when someone wouldn’t pass in high school I think you took it again a week later. Like, your intelligence, or your knowledge, of the subject would magically grow within a week. 13:09 RC: Well anybody can have an off-day. 13:11 JB: Exactly. 13:12 RC: Yeah, and I think that was… that they changed it, because I’ve talked to people and I’m like, “Oh, they must’ve changed it.” But I think this was the first year, and I remember that student. I often wonder what happened to them. Like, did anybody get their head out of their butt and help this kid get to school? You know? 13:34 JB: So then post-Hollins, where are you at? 13:39 RC: Well, I was a good feminist that Hollins nurtured. So Hollins did give me a piece of paper but, more it gave me more of a sense of awareness of the world. I was older, so I wasn’t finding myself. I’d already found myself, where most people, you all are probably what 20... 20, 21 [years old]? Usually you’re going, “Okay, I’m learning how to live on my own. I’m learning how to take care of myself.” I’d already figured that out, so when I was there I was really in the trenches going, “Who am I? Who do I wanna be in the world?” Which is what you’ll probably start doing by the time you’re 25, so I got to do that in a scholarly setting and learning about the world at the same time, and how I fit in the world. And so, when I left I was still processing all of that and at the same time while I was at one of the internships I had I came under the understanding of Two-Spirit people, because I’d done an internship with the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network [GLSEN] as part of the… because I thought I was going to be a teacher and, you know, I want to be an affirming ally as a LGBT person. 6 �So I left there and went and worked at Planned Parenthood for about two and a half years and in that time we bought the LGBT bookstore [Out Word Connections of Virginia] from the two people who owned it before. So we bought that, and in the meantime, I started questioning everything, and it was like, nothing was making sense. My spirituality, because I’d left the church when I was a teenager because when I was in, gosh, my early teens, we were watching MASH and they had Father Mulcahy and I loved how he would change from the stole to the yarmulke but he was still wearing the tabbed collar, but he met each person where they were and, you know, I don’t know how many people noticed that, but there was something about that that spoke to me. That and the Music Man [laughter], I really like how he met with each person and helped them find their gift. So those two parallels really spoke to me, and I said, “I wanna be a chaplain!” and my mom goes, “You’re not Roman Catholic,” and then she goes, “and you’re not a man.” Well, I proved her wrong. And people call me today a recovering Roman Catholic. I’m not, I’m Episcopalian. So I became a practicing Buddhist around that time. So I was about 30 years old, became a practicing Buddhist shortly before we closed the store, and became a holistic practitioner. And it was probably during that time that I really started recognizing issues with my gender. And my dad became ill and died in 2010, but he became ill in 2008 and I had gone back to school taking a semester at Hollins and working on a Masters in Arts and Liberal Studies. And so when my dad became sick I had a private practice, so I had the most flexible schedule so I was taking him to appointments and stuff and he ended up dying in 2010. Smattering through there I probably worked a couple of different jobs just never really feeling a connection. I wasn’t teaching. That was before I did the holistic healing practice. I’ve worked on both sides of HIV testing and counseling and care also, because I was a registration representative with the clinic who treated the infectious disease, so I’ve seen both sides of “Let me talk to you about prevention” and “Talk to you about your test results,” and what you do from that and to see what happened after that. So I’ve seen all sides of the disease. I remember someone that I talked to came into the clinic that I had done testing on for years and I go, “I know I talked to you. Were you not listening?” [laughter] They said, “Yeah, I was.” It’s just one of those things that takes one slip of judgement. I have a really good friend who said, “I was having a really good time and I didn’t want to stop it, and that one time.” And they live with HIV for the rest of their lives. That’s a whole different conversation. 19:33 JB: So it sounds like you dabbled in a little bit of everything. 19:38 RC: I have. And I think that’s one of the things that where I am now as a spiritual director and I finally started studying to be a chaplain, and I go, “I want something more long-term than these 7 �little, ‘here’s your bandage.’” It was during that time that I started recognizing that this could go further than this when they leave the hospital. So spiritual direction is one of those things that I appreciate more. It’s like a chaplain that you go see on a more long-term basis. 20:12 JB: Could you talk a little more about the bookstore that you owned and operated? 20:18 RC: Sure. It was started many years before. I can’t remember how long it had been in existence, probably [19]92, [or] ‘93, and we took occupancy of it in... 2002, and had it until 2004. The two men who owned it, they were moving out of state and having grown up here, I recognized the importance of having a bookstore and the importance of it being a central hub—that was before the Roanoke Diversity Center was here. And MCC [Metropolitan Community Church] was here, and we worked a lot with MCC. But having grown up here and going to OUTRight—yeah, it was OUTRight then—having gone to OUTRight, I recognized the value because the bookstore where I got a book called Invisible Lives which talked about lesbian—mostly lesbian—existence, and it was the first book, where the first time I ever read like, “Oh my God, there’s other people like me,” but there’s this one little section in this bookstore—and the bookstore has since closed, it’s now a restaurant, which I look as such a pity, such a pity, it was such a great bookstore. But that was at the beginning of the internet and you can get everything on the internet, and in Roanoke we’re still a very closeted community, even in 2019. That was in 2002 to 2004 and it was really easy to get stuff on the internet and just have it shipped to your home and most things said in private, not rainbow-colored: “This is your queer package coming to your door” kinda thing and people liked that subtlety, that privacy. So I think that we were struggling with keeping up with the internet and having a store. During that time we brought in a lot of authors for book signings. We had Rita Mae Brown, Lambda literary award winner Alex Sanchez came twice, several others that came, but you know I think everybody knows Rita Mae Brown, especially with the Sneaky Pie series. We tried to create an environment that was more of a hub where you could come and find out where there was because it’s hard when the only thing that you know is a bar, to know that there is other things out there and that not everybody is comfortable with going to a bar, especially people that are in recovery and that there needs to be other options. So when we took over the store, shortly thereafter they were building the now empty Roanoke Times building to upgrade the newspaper processing. And during that time, there was a weird rain that came that dropped 4 to 6 inches in a matter of a half an hour and I had gone home and was getting something at home and my wife was at work—my partner then; that was before we legally married; we had had a holy union though. And I called her and I said, “I am on my way, pack up what you can and lift up what you can,” and she said, “No, we’ll be fine.” And by the time I got there, she said, “No 8 �we’re fine, it’s still in the road.” By the time I had gotten there I was walking in ankle-deep water and she had flipped the breaker and we got cash. I wasn’t there for, gosh, just a couple of minutes, and we left the store with 4 inches of water in it and walked out into knee deep water and we ended up having to walk home because in that process our car got flooded, and, literally, I had parked the car and that’s how fast that rain was rising. We were on the front page of the newspaper. It was kinda funny. It was really dramatic. She had taken off her glasses and I was holding her hand because she was like, “I can’t see it’s raining so hard.” It was just, you know, muddled. So I was holding her hand and we were trying to walk across the road and I was taking her over the curb so the picture looks really dramatic and it really isn’t. It was our classic life of, “What’s that?” “Like I can see anything!” [laughter] So it looks really dramatic on the picture but, you know, it’s really not. And it’s like well there’s this huge mat and it ended up being all the mats in several of the restaurants had lifted up and floated off so you had these huge black rubber mats floating down the road, because we, literally, we walked across the road in kneedeep water and walked home. I would say that was the beginning of the end. We never really recovered from that, along with the internet coming along and, yeah. It was just becoming more popular, Barnes and Noble had an ever-increasing LGBT section, and you know, that’s one of those things that there’s positives and negatives to becoming more socially diverse and accepted, and for that reason, you lose things that are hubs. I think unfortunately one of the things we could probably do more of is try to figure out how to retain that in the process, but how to, you know, hold onto the inclusivity within the diversity. 27:01 JB: So you said that was kinda the beginning of the end of the bookstore. 27:06 RC: Yeah. We only had possession of it for, it was just over two years. We closed it in March of 2004 and we had taken occupancy of it in February 2002. I think also the idea that during that time we replaced the front window three times because people would throw bricks through it. It was also during that time when, I can’t remember who was doing it, but some church had these videos of the life of Jesus and you could send it to someone that you felt you needed to get the message to. We received an astronomical amount of Jesus videos, let me tell you, and DVDs, when DVDs came out [laughter]. Like you know, it’s really sad you know that they could use that. You know, I understand people believing in something but no one likes things being forced on them, and I wish people would recognize that. That’s not love, that’s not the action of God, but that’s a whole different conversation. So that was the beginning of the end, it was also the beginning of the internet and you know there’s something about being able to hold your privacy and not go into a LGBT bookstore, 9 �because around the time that I came out there was also this huge sting operation that happened and there were seventeen gay men that were arrested for soliciting sex. It wasn’t for payment but they were still arrested, one of which was a teacher in my high school and there was another teacher that was part of this. It ended up being, I think 17 that were convicted but I think 22 had been arrested. The other ones I think were of questionable, you know, whether or not it was more forceful or whatever it was. And that was between the two parks of Highland Park and Wasena Park and I think Wasena Park is now not drive-through, and I think that’s one of the reasons why. And it’s now just a Greenway. So there’s still a lot of privacy that Roanoke has and in some ways we’ve created a closet in that way because we’ve removed that hub. 29:52 JB: Yeah, that was something I was going to ask, operating the store that is designed to be the hub in a very closeted environment, regional space. Do you think that impacted the number of the visitors that you received? 30:11 RC: Oh yeah, yeah definitely. Because we would have people that would come in during the day and because a lot of people were closeted and... It was really awkward when we would see people that would come in with their boyfriends or girlfriends during the day and we would see them later with their married spouses of the opposite sex and we saw that probably more than people would realize. So there was also that element of privacy that we had to, keep that. “How’s such and such?” and I had started a thing when I was with OUTRight of, whenever I saw and whenever anyone came to a group, we said everything that anyone says here is private and if you see me in public you have to say “hi” to me first because it’s easier for me to explain who you are than me to explain… for you to explain “how do you know this adult?” And you know, I don’t know who they’re with but most people know how I am, so that’s how we operated in general. So, we didn’t really say hi to anyone unless someone said hi to us. Which is partially lonely in an LGBT community because you start isolating yourself. 31:50 JB: Right. 31:52 RC: Because you start knowing the secrets. 31:54 JB: And there’s a fine line between being respectful but also wanting to be a community. 10 �31:57 RC: Yeah. 32:01 JB: Could you expand a little bit more on your time with OUTRight? 32:07 RC: Sure. So, I became the coordinator of OUTRight in spring of 2000 and was there until December of 2005, I believe. Might have been 2006, trying to think. It was 2005 and during that time we had the Backstreet [Café] shooting and so the processes of listening to young adults think, “This could be me in a number of years,” and to recognize the importance of having something other than bars to go to, because that was the only thing that we had for a number of years. We had three different bars and I remember when I came out, “Oh this is the bar you go to if this is how you behave. This is the bar you go to if this is who you are. And this is this bar you go to if this is how you are.” And this is how you came out. I’m going, “Well I don’t really fit any of those, so there’s nothing else.” And you know, once you became an adult, I think OUTRight then was [up to the age] 21, you had nothing. And, so OUTRight, the way we operated, or the way I took it, into the direction of creating more awareness of things in the community and each year we had a job day or career day, and we had people that were openly LGBT in some way, come and talk to the people there and say, “This is who I am, this is who I am in the community, this is the job that I have.” And talk about their experience of coming out. Are they out in their work? And you know, not all of them were. And there are some people that were really, really visible in the LGBT community that were not out at work, and if you saw them out in public, they will not acknowledge you even to this day. Which is interesting. So, in hearing their experiences and sharing their experiences, trying to help to educate to be aware of the otherness out there, and that there’s different ways to live your life. I think right now, we’re still pigeon-holed in the LGBT community. In that people lose the idea of who they are and that we’ve become almost homogeneous in some ways. In that you know, we’re either this or we’re either that and we’re not really diverse as I remember growing up, the diversity and the awareness… [At this point Riley notices Aeryn moving her watch, and indicates with his hands to ask what she is doing]. 35:16 AM: Oh, sorry, I’m just keeping time. 35:17 RC: And so I think that is one of those things that we try to focus on because I worked at Planned Parenthood, I was really adamant, and I did HIV testing and counseling. I was one of the first ones to do the oral tests. And to be trained in that, in Roanoke, one of the first three, and 11 �because of that I said, “look, this is a risk,” and you know we did have safe sex. People that would come in and talk about safe sex. And you know, a lot of people would take issue with that and you know it was really interesting, it was a really Christian conservative person at the Rescue Mission that said, “We don’t all approach sex awareness in the same way and we all assume that everyone’s parents are going to be able to have that conversation. And you know sometimes you have to be able to have that conversation and if your parents are thinking that you’re just abstinent and you’re not, then it’s a risk.” So I really appreciated their conversation because we had a condom tasting. It was like, you still have a risk with oral sex and so, you know, good to know what flavor you like. And so we made it playful, we made it okay to use condoms and we wanted to make it fun. Now they have all kinds of fun colors and designs and ribbing and they’ve come a long, long way from the plain ones. I remember, they had ones that came out that were the color of the Bomb Pop and that was a big deal when that came out. I think those were the first ones that were colored that weren’t the flavored ones. And you know, we also had dental dams. It was really funny because when I started dating my partner she would go and get stuff out of [the drawer], “oh yeah, my socks are there,” and she said, “You had the most condoms and dental dams of anybody I’ve ever known.” [laughter] I told her “You know, it’s not that I’m using them, it’s that I always have them in hand to take to group meetings.” Whenever I was around Planned Parenthood or the drop-ins, it was before the Drop-In Center was around, so it was at the Council of Community Services. I always like to make sure I have condoms on hand for meetings and stuff [laughter]. So while I was at OUTRight, OUTRight increased tenfold and we had three meetings a month on Thursdays. We had one that was for allies and the other ones were just for the LGBT youth because it’s good to know that you have allies but it’s also good to be able to talk about those things that you could talk about with people that understand what you’re going through. So, we started a journal group and we had just a casual meeting, we’d show a movie once a month or every other month, something like that. And then, yeah, it was a lot of fun. Usually we’d show a movie every now and then for the allies and a lot of the youth I still talk to. When I came out as transgender, one of the youth said, “You were so helpful to me, I’m here for you. I know I’m not transgender but I’ll be your ally.” Which I thought was really thoughtful. 39:17 JB: Yeah. 39:17 RC: And that was when she shared with me you know, “You don’t realize what little things that you give people.” She said, “You were very forward that day but what you told me, helped me” and she said so “that’s why I’m here for you.” She said, “You looked at me and said ‘Wow, 12 �you’re a triple minority, as soon as you recognize that and that you’re gonna have those obstacles, then you’re not going to be shocked when they happen.’” Because she was a Black lesbian, and she said “No one had ever told me that.” and she said, “That probably kept me from being a bitter old woman.” 40:00 JB: Wow. So, you spoke a little bit about your coming out process. Could you share, if you’re comfortable, about coming out as transgender? 40:12 RC: You know, it was a process and when I was like “Listen, I learned about two-spirit” and so when I met my partner I go “I am a two-spirit person,” and at that point I took it to mean an androgynous person that occupies two spirits. That I have a masculine side and I have a feminine side. And also at that time I was talking to Patricia Nell Warren who just died and she had said “You have to get an alligator eye.” And I took that to mean that you just ignored that and unfortunately, right around the time she died I literally was thinking I need to email her and say, “I understood what you were saying, it took me a little while, ten years, but…” you know… So, she said, “Okay, one body two person, great. Two-spirit.” So as I got older and started learning more and started recognizing that I didn’t see myself the way other people see me. And I had been doing triathlons and doing open water swimming and stuff and I noticed I was reading magazines, and fitness magazines. I was always reading the articles about the men, which are usually more, this says a lot about our community, the women’s were always about looking fashionable and nice and the men’s were “This is how you become stronger.” Excuse me. I think that says something more about our society than you know... But one day over breakfast I look at my partner and I go, “Do you ever forget when you’re running or riding your bike, that you have a female body?” And she said, “No.” [In a small voice:] “I think that might be a problem…” [normal voice:] And so I, you know in my head I’m going, “Okay, there’s something, there’s something with that.” And, you know, because I was active in PFLAG and there was an open transgender woman there [who] openly shared her story. I remember her story, where she was like “Women talk, you guys are chatty in the bathroom!” [laughter] And she was like “I... hand reaching or ‘I need some toilet paper.’ ‘Okay honey.’” [laughter] I’m hearing her story, so I remembered that when I came out. “Don’t talk, don’t talk. ‘Hey how you doing?’” Not that people really ever talked to me because I was always really androgynous. A lot of the reactions I had going into the bathroom were horrible. So, about that time I had seen a documentary on gender called “Genderqueer,” I think is what it was. I said “well okay, I’m genderqueer,” and I thought, I’m going to focus on not recognizing my gender. And I was very noticeably female. And I had a really high voice and so every time I spoke, even from when I was a kid I would say, “Whose voice is that?” Because that was not the 13 �voice I heard in my head. So I never felt that I was trapped in my body, it never made sense. And one day I was working a temp job because it was right after we had closed the store. I was looking for a job and it was right before I started doing the holistic practice and I was working this temp job, I was listening to a podcast. It was on transgender people and they referenced, “And transgender people, it’s not that they feel trapped in their bodies. They have the identity of a male body.” And I go, “Ahh, shit.” [laughter] And I think I was filing and I think that I audibly said that. I was also listening to one that had a ghost story and I jumped when someone walked past the filing room, it was really kind of funny [laughter]. So it was about that time that I started recognizing that. And I was doing a lot of swimming and I was a practicing Buddhist at the time and my swim coach said, “I’m going to challenge you to…” This is about the time Diana Nyad was swimming from Key West to Florida and I was following that and I was really inspired by that because I wanted to do long distance swims in open water. And she [Riley’s coach] said, “I challenge you to swim three miles for the three days that she’s out there in the ocean every day.” Which was the distance, it would be 110 or 111 laps, was the miles that she was swimming, which equaled three miles for me in a pool. So I did that three days in a row. I was so sore that third day, but that is when I recognized it’s when you leave your mind. It was the time that I understood the Buddhist practice of sitting on a meditation cushion and letting go of your thought because your physical body, the only thing that you can do is, I had a conscious decision, I had to push off that wall each time. But because your mind is so tired, all of those thoughts that are buried deep inside come up. And in that process came out, “Will you ever know what it feels like to be a man in the world?” And I left the water that day and I became really depressed. I had contemplated suicide. I had a plan. Weird course of things, I also ended up with a B12 deficiency which made me look like I had Parkinson’s, sorry, for a day. And prevented that. And I go okay, well I’m here and I was getting a tattoo of a joy Buddha with swim goggles. And I said, if I make it to get that tattoo, then I will forever remove suicide as an option and I have to decide how to live my life. And I did, obviously. And the very next day I fell out of the lifeguard stand and I twisted my knee. So, I had the tattoo. I couldn’t end my life. I had made that promise and my promises are pretty serious. And I remember sitting there and crying and going, “What the hell God? Fuck you.” Excuse my language, but I was mad. I remember sitting there and crying and I had bought a book. I had thought, well I’ll sit and read this book. It was the Dharma Punx by Noah Levine and in that he talked about doing a year to live. So that December 21st...in 2011, I started the year to live. And it was a meditation that January where I go okay, how will I feel if I lose my hair? It’s just my hair. Can I take care of myself if I lose my sight? And it was one of the meditations I would go through. And I remember looking in the mirror, if you were dying in a year what would you 14 �regret? And it was not knowing what it feels like to be a man. And I go, “Who said that?” Called my counselor and said, “uh, I think we need to talk”. And he said, “Well the toothpaste is out the tube. What do you do with it? The ball’s rolling.” So about a month later I came out to my partner and we had been together for a little over eleven years at the time. And it probably took us about eight months to figure out how we were going to be a couple in the world. What the importance of that is. And she is an amazing person. I can’t be the person I am today without her I don’t think. She said that she asked herself a question of, “Would my life be better without me [Riley] in her life?” And she said no. And so we spent probably a year figuring out how our life was with me being male and coming out to our friends. Most of them, we aren’t friends with [anymore]. You really find out who your real friends are when you come out and you say, “I have leprosy,” so to speak. How close are, you know, who’s your close friends? That was my process of coming out and I came out slowly. We joked and said we had weekends with Riley. And I was working a job as a lifeguard. I was in a swimsuit and you’re not hiding a whole lot then. I stopped shaving my legs, which was horrible from the day I began. It was just not natural. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve shaved whole sections of my leg off when I was a teenager. Just gashes, like that didn’t come natural. Shaving my face, never once. It just kind of shows you, it’s like come on, mom, you knew it. Like when I came out to my mom she went to her best friend torn up and her best friend said, “You’re surprised?” [laughter] My mom, God bless her, didn’t find any allies. Everyone was like “come on!” It’s like stereotypical. I drove a truck [laughter]. Listen, if there is a stereotype I had it. 51:32 JB: Well thank you for sharing that. 51:33 RC: Yeah. 51:37 JB: So, now you’re a spiritual director. 51:41 RC: I am. Yes. 51:42 JB: Right? It seems like that’s kind of been a theme throughout your life… 51:46 RC: Yeah. 15 �51:46 JB: …throughout our conversations. Can you talk a little bit about your work right now and what you do? 51:55 RC: I’m a spiritual director and because of two bouts of being homeless. The second time I was literally homeless for two weeks and I didn’t look for a home at that time. And I couch surfed. Slept in my car, which is now illegal in Roanoke County. The absurdity of it. Because I was going to go to New York City to do the internship and I used that time to really delve into myself. And to find who I am and I think that’s when that seed got planted of being a Two-Spirit person. As a spiritual director I serve at the Rescue Mission. I volunteer there one day a week. I am not openly transgender there. If they have someone that is LGBT they usually say, “You’ll really connect with Riley.” They usually send me to the LGBT people. Because we live different lives than most people. As a spiritual director I found a real connection to saints because most of them were outcasts in their community. They weren’t understood because they were talking in a way that most people didn’t. Even Jesus was an outcast in his community. And so I found a community that way and as a spiritual director, it’s more of, I take it from a place of empowerment and help people to find their own spiritual path. I have Christian and Buddhist practices, but since [then] I’ve studied Jewish mysticism with the Kabbalah, I’ve studied under a shaman. I’ve dabbled in a whole bunch of different things. So I’m trans in a lot of different areas, not only in gender but in spirituality and I’m partly Episcopalian and partly Buddhist and partly Roman Catholic. Sometimes I’m very male identified and sometimes I… even before transition, I didn’t talk with my hands. I don’t know what this is. They don’t sit still now. I have jazz hands [laughter]. But I also don’t feel male or female. I know I recognize I have a beard but I go through life recognizing that people see me as male but I know how everybody lives differently. And you two might be in the same class but if you really sit down and talk about it, you’re going to have two different perspectives. How many people are in your class, you all have different filters and different experiences coming into the class. So you’re going to process it all completely different. And so that’s really how I take spiritual direction. “Who are you? How did you grow up? And how can we help you to feel more full?” 55:00 JB: That’s like related to something Dr. Rosenthal said one day. I think it was intersubjectivity… 55:10 RC: Yeah. 16 �55:10 JB: … How we all bring our own perspectives and ideas and everything. So our interpretations are therefore different from one another. 55:16 RC: Yeah. 55:18 JB: Wrapping up a little bit, what advice would you give to someone who is thinking about transitioning or wanting to begin that. 55:31 RC: Someone who’s contemplating transitioning? To find a person that is a confidant. At least one person that they feel is solid because that person might be the only person at the end of it. Transitioning is like playing cards and you have to be willing to put them all on the table. And if you’re lucky enough, you get to pick some of them up. 56:06 JB: So then also, what qualities or what characteristics do you think makes the most ideal ally? 56:16 RC: Someone that accepts you where you are and listens with empathy. And recognizes that we all approach transitioning in different ways and we ask different things of our bodies. Whether, I know people who are trans identified and don’t wish to have any surgeries and don’t wish to take any hormones. But this is who I am, honor who I am. So, an ally would meet that person there. Because also, not everybody’s able to have surgeries or begin hormones for health reasons, but an ally meets you where you are. As best they can. 57:07 JB: Makes a lot of sense. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up? 57:12 RC: No, I want to be respectful of your time. I was already fashionably late. 57:17 JB: We don’t have anything today. 57:17 RC: Oh good. 17 �57:20 JB: Well with that, I think we can conclude. 57:24 RC: Okay. If you have any other questions feel free to ask if you’re listening to it and you go “what did he mean?” 57:30 JB: Okay, yes definitely we will. Thank you so much. [END] 18 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Riley Chattin Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Riley Chattin Interviewer: Jillian Barnard Interviewee: Riley Chattin Date: February 22, 2019 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 57:35 Transcription prepared by: Becca Horton, Alanna Higdon, Catherine Cone, Aeryn McMurtry, and Jillian Barnard Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 February 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riley Chattin, Jillian Barnard, Becca Horton, Alanna Higdon, Catherine Cone, Aeryn McMurtry Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChattinRiley https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5119/HouchinsCatherine.MP3 80d080d9f8ecb0a8c6a57818d891835a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5119/HouchinsCatherine.1.pdf 6502553f92ef8329051642bd84db42f7 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Rev. Catherine Houchins March 11, 2019 Interviewer: Joel Bowers Interviewee: Reverend Catherine Houchins Date: March 11th, 2019 Location: Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge, 806 Jamison Ave SE, Roanoke, Virginia Transcribed by: Joel Bowers, Claudia Dodd, Shamira James, Dalton Rogers, Khira Smith Duration: 56:00 Topics: 0:00 = childhood in Christiansburg, Virginia (c. 1951 – 1969); experiences in college (c. 1969 – 1973) 2:25 = religious upbringing 4:08 = understandings of sexuality; first lesbian relationship (c. 1970s); life in New Jersey; living in the closet 7:50 = moving back to Virginia, to Portsmouth (c. 1979); coming out; discovering the MCC congregation in Norfolk, Virginia (early 1980s) 11:07 = experiences at the MCC church in Norfolk, Virginia (early 1980s) 13:26 = Becoming clergy at an MCC congregation in Ventura, California (c. 1986 - 1997); and then becoming clergy at MCC of the Blue Ridge in Roanoke, Virginia (1998) 15:33 = MCC community engagement in Roanoke (c. 1998 – mid-2000s); the Backstreet Cafe shooting (2000) and aftermath 19:38 = the AIDS Crisis (1980s-1990s) and experiences as a pastor at that time 21:27 = The Wasena Park police sting on gay men cruising, and aftermath (1998-1999) 24:02 = Coming out to her parents 26:26 = On being an out LGBTQ pastor; churches and controversies around sex and LGBTQ 29:10 = Changes in Roanoke’s LGBTQ community from the 1990s to today; reflections on Pride in the Park & the LGBT Library 33:12 = “Open and affirming” churches vs. MCC 35:56 = Reflecting on personal changes over time 38:22 = Mel White and Soulforce vs. Jerry Falwell; knowing when to be in your face vs. step back 41:49 = Challenges for Roanoke’s LGBTQ community today 44:30 = Retirement, and return to pastoring 45:52 = Absence of an LGBTQ publication in Roanoke   1   �47:58 = MCC’s community engagement today 49:12 = Rebuilding MCC’s congregation; community outreach in SE Roanoke 52:54 = Closing Remarks 00:00 [checking sound levels ~ 8 seconds] 00:09 JB: This is Joel Bowers interviewing Reverend Catherine Houchins for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project: Oral History Initiative. We are sitting in the Metropolitan Community Church of Roanoke on the 11th of March, 2019. So Reverend, where were you born? 00:29 RCH: Catherine is fine. JB: Catherine is fine? RCH: Yes. JB: Perfect. Where were you born? 00:35 RCH: I was born here in Roanoke. My family moved around. I actually lived in Woodstock for a little bit, but I grew up in Christiansburg. [Which is] up the road near Blacksburg. 00:45 JB: That’s awesome. How long did you live in Blacksburg? 00:50 RCH: In Christiansburg. I lived there until I went to college when I was eighteen. Then I went to Bluefield College, which is a Baptist college, for two years. Then I went down to Tennessee to Carson Newman, which is also a Baptist college, for two years. 1:04 JB: Interesting. What did you study in college? 1:09   2   �RCH: My major was English and Education. I had a minor in Religion. 1:12 JB: Nice. 1:14 RCH: I taught for six years in Parochial Baptist Christian schools. 1:20 JB: Wow, interesting. So, did you grow up in the Blacksburg area? 1:26 RCH: I grew up there until I went to college when I was 18 and have seldom been back to live there at all, except for a couple of weeks one time. 1:35 JB: How was your college experience? What lead you to want to do Education and also Religion? 1:47 RCH: Well, I think that probably the education was something my parents had really pushed, you know? Neither of them graduated from high school and it was never “if you go to college” it was “when you go to college.” So, teaching seemed to be an obvious thing. I did not want to be a nurse and at that time, fifty years ago, a lot of women were not jumping into being doctors and such. So I got an education. I grew up in the church from the time I was three, so religion was always a part of my life, my experience. I had some great teachers at Bluefield. I had a Dr. Delgato and at Carson Newman Dr. Bill Glovens, who was just amazing. And it just was a natural fit. 2:25 JB: That’s nice. You said that you grew up in the church since you were three, how was that? What denomination was it? 2:35 RCH: I have to say… it was a Southern Baptist church. I have to say that, again, in that time period, homosexuality was not discussed much in any area but even in church. It was a fairly moderate, moderately conservative congregation. They did not allow women, of course, to be deacons or preach but they let me speak often. But you just couldn’t say that you were preaching, you spoke. It was a good experience, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about public speaking. I received a lot of positive feedback from people when I did speak, and today I have no trouble speaking in front of any sized group. 3:17   3   �JB: Nice. How was it growing up religious? 3:24 RCH: Well, I was kind of, [what] might be called Catholic Christian. I was a real sweet little girl. I didn’t get in trouble. I didn’t drink. I didn’t smoke, mainly because my parents smoked and I never wanted to do that. And if I ever got caught drinking I would be put under the house. And so it just wasn’t a part of my experience. I, of course, was not out at that time. A lot of young people weren't aware, and if you did you had other thoughts about it. I didn’t have any sort of LGBT experience until after my junior year of college. It wasn’t a struggle then. People just assumed I didn’t date a lot because I was such a little church girl. 4:08 JB: Interesting. You mentioned it wasn’t until your junior year of college that you had any experience with LGBTQ. What was it like growing up? I can imagine it was lonesome knowing you were gay but not being able to express it or be yourself? 4:40 RCH: Well, I had a lot of friends and, again, I’m not sure that term really came to my mind. It was just not something that came to mind. People didn’t talk about it, and if they did it was, you know, “that guy over there,” and that sort of thing. I knew I was different. I knew I was different from like six or seven, but didn’t have any concept, didn’t have any words for it. I had lots of crushes on girls that of course went nowhere [laughter] and was not even acknowledged. I was working in a camp, a summer camp for the youth group, the summer of my junior year, summer after my junior year. I fell head over heels for the director, who was 12 years older than I, and just got very involved in her life. I barely made it out of college because of that, and we were together for almost eight years. 5:35 JB: Really? RCH: Hmm-hmm. 5:38 JB: Did that affect any of your religious views? 5:47 RCH: It didn’t interfere with any of my religious views because I always knew that God loved me and that God accepted me. One of the good things about the Baptist faith is that they teach you this internal authority, between me and God. And I knew that was a clear open path. That was good. The problem [in] those eight years was being extremely closeted. I don’t think either of us ever said “gay” and I know we didn’t say “lesbian.” You know? Any of that whatsoever. No acknowledgment whatsoever, verbally. So that was always kind of the thing with me. I mean we lived together. We’re teaching in Christian schools and we’re 12 years apart but it was   4   �always “Ms. so-and-so and Cathy.” Obviously there was an awareness of some connection there. So the closet got really tight. And in 1978 I was teaching in New Jersey, I went to a conference for Christian school teachers and one man said, “I can’t imagine ever doing anything in my life other than teaching in Christian schools.” And my brain screamed, “Not me. Not me.” 6:55 JB: Really? 6:56 RCH: Shortly thereafter, I walked into our apartment in New Jersey, and I always look up when I say this because the radio was on top of the refrigerator, and the radio was on and they were just announcing that Harvey Milk had been killed. In November 1978. I didn’t know who Harvey Milk was, never heard of him, but my spirit knew when I heard that, I had a connection. Shortly thereafter I began making plans to move back to Virginia, to leave that relationship. I couldn’t stand the walls and it’s just like that’s my little watermark time, November 1978. 7:36 JB: Wow. You found as time went on that it was too much to be that closeted? 7:44 RCH: Yes. 7:45 JB: …To be that intimate with her but not being able to … 7:50 RCH: No one knew. I didn’t know any gay people. I didn’t know any LGBT, and there wasn’t even a Q at that time [laughter]. I didn’t know any folks. When I moved back to Virginia, I moved back to Portsmouth, Virginia where I had lived before. And, again, I didn’t know anyone. I started out working in a truck stop part time to get some money to survive. A friend of mine that I made there was a gay man. He began telling me about Metropolitan Community Church, and for three years he pushed me to go until I finally went. But, he introduced me to some people. I came out to my… I later got a job at the public library. I came out to my boss there because there was a young man there who was flamingly queer. I knew that one day someone was gonna to say something to and or about him, and I didn’t want to get caught in the backwash. “Well, what about her?” So I went to my boss and said, [and] she just laughed. I’ve never had anybody say “Yeah, I knew.” It’s always a surprise to people from my past. But, anyhow, I came out to her and then slowly began working into the community there in Portsmouth. 9:03 JB: In Portsmouth, Virginia?   5   �9:05 RCH: Portsmouth, Virginia, yes. 9:06 JB: Where about is that? 9:07 RCH: It’s near Norfolk, near Virginia Beach. After I got involved in the church then, my first pastor, I was called to a church in Ventura, California. Which is just north of Los Angeles. I had a delightful 11 years out there, would love to be there today if I won the lottery. 9:29 JB: If you won the lottery. If we all could win the lottery. You mentioned it took three years for him to get you to go to church, what was the reason? Was it because of your foundation in a Baptist church and not wanting to leave Baptist? Or…? 9:49 RCH: I wasn’t going anywhere those three years. At all. The churches I had been involved with before, when I lived in that area before, they were all pretty strict. And I was very careful not to out my former partner like I didn’t use her name a while ago. When the word got out, they would often come to my door and try to re-save me. So, I was just avoiding it all. I also didn’t go to Metropolitan Community Church because I had heard very little about it. All I knew, it was a church where a lot of gay people went. In my mind it was like, “I’m not sure.” When I finally decided, I was at a really low place and decided I had to do something. I would go, the church was in Norfolk, and there was a street, a body of water called the Hague, and the church. I would go, before that church started, and sit and watch across the water to see what kind of people were going in there. After about three weeks of that, I finally got my nerve and went, went over there. 10:56 JB: What were you looking for in particular? 11:00 RCH: I think I wanted to see if they looked like regular people. I know that sounds so strange. 11:06 JB: That’s not strange. 11:07 RCH: I was looking to see if anyone carried a bible in. I was looking to see how many people were going in. Men? All men? All women? What was the case there? I’m having a little bit of statistics in the back of my head all the time, checking out groups. I just wanted to see what was all that. The first three Sundays I went, the minute it got close to the ending cause I looked in the bulletin and they would join hands and sing the Lord’s Prayer. I don’t want anybody touching   6   �me. Not because they were gay, but because I was so internalized. I would leave right before that. The third Sunday the pastor chased me down the steps and said, “You! Come back here. Who are you? You laugh at the right places. You know what I’m talking about, stuff in the Bible, who are you?” And that person was my first-ever female pastor, my first-ever African American pastor, and of course, my first lesbian pastor. I was scared to death. I stopped and talked to her very quickly [laughter]. So yeah … I didn’t have any trouble aligning myself in God. Jesus had been in my life forever, but I wasn’t sure that there were that many other people who had also had that experience, not judging. I just didn’t know there were others. And then later on, long story, I won’t get into it right now, we were in the newspaper and one man came running in one Sunday, literally ran into the church, his name was James, and he said, “I saw this article, and I thought that I was the only gay Christian in the world.” Now again, this is like 1982-83, and it was just wonderful that he found us. But he had been living for years, he was probably about forty at that time, and living for years thinking that he was the only gay Christian in the world. 13:01 JB: That’s lonely, and to find this community, yeah it’s definitely possible. That’s for sure. That’s awesome. So, that was how you got involved with MCC? 13:16 RCH: Mmhmm. 13:16 JB: How did you end up getting into Los Angeles? 13:22 RCH: That’s where my first church was, [it] was just north of Los Angeles. 13:25 JB: Well how did you get to be…? 13:26 RCH: Well they sent out these little fliers. I had become licensed as clergy…it’s the step to get ordained, the denomination had ordained me as clergy, the Metropolitan Community Church denomination. We have churches all over the world, and I had gone through a bunch of classes and tests and things and I’d been ordained. And churches, when they were looking for a pastor, back in that day before the internet, they would send out fliers. And I had picked up one that had come to our church, and at that time I really liked collecting eagles. Our God is like an eagle and on eagle’s wings and all of that stuff. I looked at this folder and I thought, “oh, that’s nice” and located at the very bottom, there was an eagle. And I thought, “Okay.” I never expected to go across the country, but that’s how I got to Los Angeles, and from there I got into some groups there, and I actually took… one of the schools had classes, one of the churches had a school, MCC churches, and I actually took a class on “Lesbian 101,” and lots of different groups— hearing different groups speak and be involved there, so like I said, I was there for 11 years.   7   �Time came to come back, my parents were getting older, and [I] came back to Virginia. At that time, I had not been in the ministry for a couple of years, so I wasn’t really coming back to a church. And I ended up working at a home for mentally challenged adults, down in the eastern part of the state, got back into the MCC there that I had been in before, [and] started coming here to Roanoke once a month to preach. They were without a pastor, and once a month my partner and I would drive out here to speak. They met at the Unitarian church at that time, at three o’clock in the afternoon. 15:07 JB: That’s an odd Sunday service. 15:09 RCH: Very. 15:10 JB: Did you, were you able to have many people come? 15:14 RCH: I think that about that time, over there would be about 15-20 people who were looking and were new to MCC and looking. The church was founded here in 1986, which was the same year I moved to California. 15:26 JB: Oh really? 15:33 RCH: And I remember telling the denominational leaders, before the church was founded … I said, “I don’t know any gay people in Roanoke, but I know there have to be some there. I could smell them when I go by.” You know, just laughing and teasing. So shortly, and I would tell people, “You’ve got to find some people in Roanoke,” and so shortly after that, about the time I went to California, the church here was formed. So I came out here to preach and decided that I wanted to get back into ministry, so I began and was called as the full-time pastor here in 1998, and I was here for almost 10 years. 16:03 JB: Wow. RCH: Got real involved in the community. We were very involved in Pride back in the day and other groups. We used to have a group called “ISM,” Interfaith Sexual Minorities, and we would hold a big forum every year, we had Bishop Song… 16:21 JB: About when was this?   8   �RCH: Um, 2005-6 maybe? JB: OK. 16:28 RCH: Mary Boenke, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of her, she used to be really big in the community here, she had a daughter who was lesbian and then was trans.1 She would get this together and it involved the Unitarian church and a couple of others and we would have different speakers come in. Jimmy Creech, who was a Methodist minister, he fought for performing gay marriages, he came and spoke once. [We became] involved with things like that. Then, of course when the shooting happened in 2000, I was very much put front and center. Because there wasn’t a Diversity Center, there wasn’t a contact person, and since MCC was the main group, yes, so immediately [we] got lots of interviews and things, which I made it very clear that I couldn’t speak for the community. But you might want to go back and research that some. You can Google and find out lots about it there. 17:17 JB: Yeah definitely. RCH: I was even interviewed on NPR. JB: Really? 17:22 RCH: Yes. He tried, the interviewer, whose name I don’t remember, kept trying to say, “Well, isn’t this going to put everyone back in the closet?” and I said, “Well, that might happen, but that’s not what is happening here.” Because our church experienced a tremendous growth after that, because people found out that we were here. 17:39 JB: And hard times bring people together. RCH: Uh huh. I conducted the funeral for the gentleman who was killed and at that time there was just media everywhere, and, again, it showed Roanoke in a good light because we didn’t riot, we didn’t tear down things, we didn’t get into … We presented as a community. We presented as a community. It was sad, horrible, and phenomenal times all at once. 18:06 JB: Yeah.                                                                                                                         1  Mary  Boenke  has  recorded  an  oral  history  interview  with  the  Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project,  as  well.   Southwest  Virginia  LGBTQ+  History  Project,  “Oral  History  Interview  with  Mary  Boenke,”  October  6,  2016,   www.virginiaroom.org/digital/document/BoenkeMary.       9   �RCH: In fact, Richard [Ward III], whom you were going to interview. I am sure you’ve heard of Matthew Shepard, and there was a group that at his service would put on angel wings to protect the family and whatever. Richard got people together and had them construct wings and be at the funeral for that, and he was in charge of pulling that together. 18:30 JB: Wow. What a strong community. RCH: It can be. JB: Yeah. 18:37 RCH: Like whether it’s in Norfolk, Ventura, Los Angeles, or here, if all of the communities within the community could come together, there would be a phenomenal force. But there’s lots of splinter. 18:53 JB: A lot of diversity. RCH: Splintering. JB: Splintering. RCH: Diversity is when there’s a lot of groups. Splintering is, in my mind, when the groups can’t come together. 19:02 JB: Uh. Yeah. RCH: [Refers to something off record] JB: Oh I get it. RCH: [laughter] 19:08 JB: Um, so you mentioned that you were down in southern Virginia working at a mentally handicapped… 19:27 RCH: Mentally challenged adults.   10   �JB: Mentally challenged adults. RCH: I was the Chaplin. 19:28 JB: You were the Chaplin and so that’s why you weren’t in the ministry for three years? 19:35 RCH: I had taken some time off. JB: OK. 19:38 RCH: That was during … I was in California in the late [19]80s, early ‘90s, as a pastor, and that was during the time when AIDS was rampant, and in four years, I buried 25 friends. And I probably performed in those four years about 50 to 100 funerals for people who just needed a pastor. That took a tremendous toll. 20:00 JB: I can only imagine. 20:04 RCH: And I had a hard time even letting God lead me back into ministry, and I surely had a hard time falling back in love with my gay men, brothers, because I had buried so many. And I’ve always been, I’ve always been a pastor who has an equal female-male congregation, so it’s not like I am a separatist, but that hurt made me hesitant to renew those bonds. So I took some time off. I don’t want to say that I was burned out. I was used up. 20:34 JB: Emotionally dried? RCH: Mm-hmm. That’s what having three funerals in this next two weeks, these last two weeks, has brought back some of that memory. 20:44 JB: I’m sure. It’s never easy to bury the ones that you love. For sure. 20:53 RCH: And it is a blessing that God has given me a gift that if a family somewhere needs me to help with a funeral, I am very comfortable stepping in and getting to know them and doing it. When I was in Charlotte, I was there for eight years, two different couples in my church ran funeral homes, and whenever they had people who did not have a pastor, they would ask me to   11   �come and be with the family and conduct their service. And because the experience that I had in the [19]80s and ‘90s, I was very comfortable quickly connecting and being able to share that. 21:27 JB: Yeah, so when you came to Roanoke, how did you, how were you able to become a minister here in Roanoke. 21:35 RCH: Well because my denomination was licensing. My license was good anywhere, my ordination was good anywhere in the denomination. And this was an MCC, and so they called me, voted on me, and brought me. JB: How cool. 21:49 RCH: And not long after I got here was when the gentlemen were arrested in the park for soliciting, for talking about soliciting. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that case or not. 21:58 JB: No, could you refresh me just a second. 22:00 RCH: I’m trying to get some time frame in. I think it was around 2000, the police did a sting in a local park [Wasena Park] and they arrested 12 or 13 men for talking about having sex. And supposedly in the state of Virginia, I was told, talking about a felony is a felony. 22:20 JB: Really? RCH: And so, they were taken to court. Sam Garrison was their lawyer. Sam is no longer here but he was one of the main lawyers in the Watergate hearings. Way ancient history. And he was a lawyer here in town, and he was in charge of these gentlemen. And, of course, I was trying to work with them, and I got called to testify before the courts here about, I’m not quite sure what. He called me as a witness to talk about being able to be fully human and gay, and life, liberty— his [Sam] thing was “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” was his battle cry. And I’ll never forget when the Commonwealth attorney came to talk to me. First of all, he said, “Ms. Houchins,” and I said, “that’s Reverend please.” And then he said, “Have you… how many times have you had sex,” and I was thinking, “what?” 23:20 JB: That’s a very personal question. 23:21   12   �RCH: …and then he said, “how many times have you had sex in a park,” and I’m going—I’m still lookin’—he said, “in Virginia?” And I said, “oh, good, never.” 23:33 JB: In Virginia, oh [mutual laughter]. 23:35 RCH: But that was the week before my partner and I were headed to California for a big conference. My parents were still living in Christiansburg; they got the Roanoke Times. They always watched WDBJ, so before I went to court that day, not knowing how it was gonna happen, I had to basically come out to my parents officially. 24:01 JB: Yeah. 24:02 RCH: Especially my father. And when I told him the situation, and he said, “well, a felony for talking about a felony? That’s a stupid law.” He didn’t even go into the other. 24:12 JB: Really? 24:12 RCH: Yeah, so that got me real involved in the community because of standing up and representing us at that time. 24:21 JB: Mhm. And I’m sure the support for the… your father’s response really helped. 24:30 RCH: It was really positive. It was the only time, in my whole life, that we ever talked about LGBT issues. 24:37 JB: And from then on, was it the only time? 24:39 RCH: There was never anytime after that. He died about 12, 13 years ago, so there were a bunch of years. 24:46 JB: Yeah.   13   �24:47 RCH: We never talked about it. 24:49 JB: And your mother? 24:50 RCH: My mother was interesting because when I first came out to her when I was in Norfolk way back, I’m jumping around… 25:00 JB: Oh, so you came out to her… 25:01 RCH: …I came out to her in a letter. 25:02 JB: Okay. 25:02 RCH: In a letter. And her first comment when she talked to me was, “if you’d only told me we could’ve gotten you help,” and I said, “I don’t need any help.” And she went on and on and on. And I finally said, “mom, do you want me to tell you the people that come in the grocery store where you work every day that I’ve had crushes on?” That kinda stopped that. She finally came to hear me preach. I was visiting from California and was asked to preach at MCC here, and I invited her and two of my aunts. And the aunts came, and my mom and I were driving home back to Christiansburg from being here. And she looked at me, she said, “there should’ve been more people there to hear you,” which I took as a sort of left-handed compliment. [laughter] 25:49 JB: Yeah. 25:50 RCH: The fact that, a) she thought there might’ve been more gay people in Roanoke, but, also, that she was complimenting me. She came to hear me preach twice. She died about a year and a half ago. She came to hear me preach twice when I was here ten years ago. Yeah, and she was uncomfortable, but she came. And in our church, we serve communion every Sunday. 26:13 JB: Yeah. 26:13 RCH: All three times she was at MCC, she came to me for communion.   14   �26:17 JB: Really? 26:17 RCH: Very poignant. 26:21 JB: Aw, how special. And… 26:26 RCH: So, one of the things they asked me when I came here to be the pastor for the first time, one of the gentlemen said, “now, your parents live thirty miles up the road, thirty-five miles up the road, are you gonna be able to be out with our church?” And I said, “I’m called to be your pastor, and I’ll be everything I have to be. My parents will have to deal with that because I’ve been in that closet so long before there’s no way I can walk back in the closet.” And I can’t be an MCC pastor, not that MCC is all about LGBTQ… 26:59 JB: Of course. 27:00 RCH: It’s a Christian church, and a good number of our folks are [LGBTQ]. We have a couple of heterosexual families that have begun coming along with other heterosexual folks, but there’s no way that if I’m gonna be authentic that I could be a pastor here and deny who I am and all the things I am. 27:20 JB: As you shouldn’t. As nobody should. 27:23 RCH: Exactly. But you know there are a lot churches out there, with very closeted pastors, not MCC’s necessarily. Of course, the local…. the reason they choose the Methodist church [is that] they go really hard on Methodist pastors who are closeted. 27:39 JB: Yeah. I believe that happens everywhere. It’s just… 27:43 RCH: This one’s been really public. 27:43 JB: Yeah.   15   �27:43 RCH: [laughter] 27:46 JB: Everything hits the fan eventually, I believe. 27:47 RCH: Mhm. Well, Southern Baptists have been through it many times, and they’re going through the sex scandals now. 27:54 JB: Mhm. 27:54 RCH: The Catholic church, ya know, it’s just, it’s an inability for people to be who they are, regardless. Be who they are both in gender identity and to whom they are attracted to, whom they want to be with, to be who they are where they stand on Biblical issues, not just those few verses, to be who they are about social issues, and people just are hesitant to just be themselves. The person you see sitting here talking to you is the person you’ll see in that pulpit on Sunday. I just can’t do that duality. 28:31 JB: Yeah. Live a double life. 28:32 RCH: Mhm. 28:35 JB: It’s a lie. We’re not supposed to live in lies. So, in your time in Roanoke, from……well even growing up here, what would you say, I mean I know a lot of things have changed, what would say is the biggest change, the biggest changes? 28:59 RCH: In the LGBT community or…? 29:00 JB: LGBT community or Roanoke’s perception of it and the community aspect of it… 29:10 RCH: Well, I think Roanoke is slowly realizing they’re not a little railroad town, and they’re not just all white, sliced bread. When I lived here to go to California in 1986, there were very few ethnic restaurants; no nice, big chain restaurants. And when I came back, it was like, “oh my   16   �goodness.” Like at Tanglewood [mall], that was brand new when I came back [laughter]. But I think that what I’ve seen in the, basically, twenty years I’ve been associated here, is that the LGBTQ community has gained more personhood. More ability to speak out and be involved in other things. Although, this community was more out than some I’ve lived in way back then. I came to my first Pride, came up from Norfolk to go to Pride here one time when I first heard about the church being here. That was probably about 1997-8 and it was, then, in one of the parks, I don’t remember which, but a smaller park. It really was a little picnic. 30:21 JB: Yeah. 30:21 RCH: Okay, with a few booths and things, and I remember driving through the park, and I wish I could call to mind the name of it. It had one driveway, okay, you know one driveway in, circle around, and about every third car had a big old rainbow on it.2 30:37 JB: Really? 30:37 RCH: And I thought, oh my goodness. Don’t they know people are gonna drive around here and see this? And there’s only one way out? [laughter] But, um, and it was a great time. I just saw Pride just grow so much through the early ‘90s, or the late ‘90s and early 2000s. It was a real exciting time. We had name-brand people coming in to be speakers and entertainers, and, so I’ve seen some of that falter a little bit, it appears, lately. I think that more people now than even twenty years ago are comfortable presenting who they are. I can remember I had a rainbow ring, and I was a little nervous about wearing that. One time I was in an elevator with a lady, and I had a necklace on that had rainbow rings on it, and she said, “oh, the rainbow, like Noah.” And I said, “yes ma’am, but, also, it stands for the gay community.” And, just, you know, several of my friends would have fallen over if they heard me say that back then. I like the fact that there’s a Diversity Center. I love the fact there’s the library. When Ed Harris first received the books that began the library—it was housed in our church for a long time. I, at various times, have gone through my library and given a lot of things there and I look forward to the day, one day, where that’s open and accessible to more people. So many of young people today, even though things are much more open about LGBT issues, there’s a lot of history they don’t know. 32:18 JB: Oh definitely. 32:19                                                                                                                         2    Rev.  Houchins  is  referring  to  Highland  Park.   17   �RCH: And there’s a lot of, um, not just history, but varied experiences, and sometimes you get that through books. I was a reference librarian for a while, too. [laughter] You get that from books that you may not ever experience. Patricia Nell Warren died about a month ago. She was one of the first popular gay book writers, and I say “gay” because it was just men. She was published; she was in public libraries. And my brain was so fogged, that the first time I read Front Runner, which is all about a gay boy and his coach, I missed the whole storyline. And my library friend gave it to me to read, and I go, “wait a minute,” and I read the back cover and I thought, “let me read this again.” So it’s things like that, that you learn through reading, whether you have the experience or not, so I’m looking forward to more of that. 33:12 JB: Yeah. 33:12 RCH: Course, there are more, churches that use “open and affirming” in their publicity. And I’m glad that there are more that have that in their publicity. But when you start talking to them, how far does that go? Will they let you come sit in their pews? Of course. Will they let you donate money? Of course. Sometimes they’ll let you sing in their choir and many of them have us playing their instruments when they don’t even know it. But will they marry you? Will they bless your babies? Will they bury you? With your true authentic self? And more churches are coming into that, I’m not being selfish about this, and we have several communities here in town that are in the process. But I get a little bothered sometimes when a church in this neighborhood has a sign out front that says “All Welcome,” and I know all are not welcome. 34:08 JB: Yes. RCH: But it’s not my calling to go knocking on their door and say “excuse me your sign is wrong.” [laughter] What my job is to make sure that people knows these doors are open and that everyone’s welcome. JB: Well I think that’s very evident from everything I’ve heard and I mean I’ve mentioned to a couple people that I am coming here to do an interview and all great things have been said. 34:35 RCH: Well now let’s be real, there’s gonna be some people that say… JB: Well… RCH: “Haven’t you heard about that church?” JB: Oh of course. RCH: And my line after that is, “Come try us anew, come try us again.”   18   �34:37 JB: What would you say MCC’s role is in the community? RCH: I would like to hope that we’re seen as a place of peace, a place of encouragement, a place of hope, a place where you can come, literally, just as you are. We’re also seen in this neighborhood as a very active food pantry. We have a food pantry open one day a week. Last Thursday, in two hours we served twenty people which fed fifty-six people. Nonperishable goods. They come in and they pick out from the shelf in categories, what they need. I hope it’s seen as that. We’re also seen as a meeting place, the Diversity Center, there’s a very large NA meeting [Narcotics Anonymous] in here on Sundays. I would like it to become more and more a place where groups can come together. I also want it to be known as a place that if you have a spiritual need, whether that’s to talk, to pray, to marry you, to bury you. That we’re here, too. 35:56 JB: And how has your perception changed through growing up in Blacksburg. RCH: Christiansburg. JB: Christiansburg. How do I keep getting that wrong? RCH: Because I said it was near Blacksburg because people know Tech [Virginia Tech] JB: Oh yeah, yeah. So in Christiansburg, how would you say you have fully changed since then to now. RCH: I’m much more open and comfortable in my own skin. JB: Really? RCH: I’m okay if people acknowledge all that I am if not. I went to a high school reunion and most people didn’t want my partner—my partner didn’t go with me at that time—most people didn’t ask if I was married or had children because they knew, in one way or another. I did have one teacher, my typing teacher, he said “Are you still preaching?” Because of having been in the paper, with the shooting. And I thought that was really great. 36:57 RCH: My fiftieth high school reunion is coming up and they’re putting together a little booklet and they did not leave a place for what you’re doing now. And I asked about it, and I added my thing and she says “Oh of course, we would have asked that with everyone, but we know you’re a preacher.” So I can appreciate that, nobody’s gonna use those letters. You know? JB: Yeah. 37:21   19   �RCH: But I see that for me the change has been that I had a good foundation, especially spiritually, but I had a good foundation. I was taught early on that you are who you are. The people that taught me that didn’t know all the parts of that when they taught me that. And from that I was able to grow into, hopefully, who I am today. Be comfortable with being that for me, not requiring it for you, for anyone else, but being able to meet you where you are and help you to get to where you want to be, on all levels, not just religious levels. That answer what you were asking about? 38:00 JB: Yeah, what would you say has been the biggest struggle for you in Roanoke in dealing with, and this is in all aspects of just being gay in the area, or being religious and gay, or just, you know, the area in general. 38:22 RCH: One of the struggles is knowing when it’s necessary, important, valid to bring up any of that. JB: Yeah. RCH: Another is to be able to do it in a way that will create understanding, not alienation. JB: Yes. 38:39 RCH: I don’t wear a big “L” on my chest, saying “By the way, my name’s Catherine, I’m a lesbian.” I don’t deny that. This sort of goes back to another dynamic real quick. You may have heard of Mel White and he used to have a group that would go to various colleges, churches, groups, and try’na convince them to stop the hate speech. And he had an organization and he came here and we all went to Jerry Falwell’s church. And this had been set up ahead of time and Jerry—in fact, Mel had been a ghost writer for Jerry Falwell, you know who I’m talking about? Jerry Falwell, Thomas Roads Baptist Church. JB: Okay. RCH: … anti-gay place…. JB: Yeah. 39:23 RCH: …in Virginia, at least. And we were all supposed to be a bunch of us from Mel’s group and a bunch from Jerry’s and we were supposed to meet and have dinner. I grew up here. I knew what Jerry is all about. And I told Mel, I told the group, we’re not going to have dinner because they will not eat with us. They would not eat with our kind of people. JB: Yeah. 39:43   20   �RCH: Dinner was canceled, of course. We got bottles of water we sat around and kinda talked. But I realized after that that Mel’s calling was to go and confront, in your face. Almost like the ACT-UP group that started 35 years ago about AIDS. My calling is to learn your language, show you who I and my people are and win you over by love, win you over by finding out that gay people are not bare-butt drag queens in the parades, only. JB: Only [laughter] RCH: You know what I’m saying? JB: Yeah. 40:18 RCH: Yeah, you know what I’m saying? Because a lot of people will, they will tell you they’ve never known a gay person. And you say “Oh yeah, you have, you may not have known, but you’ve known.” But once they have a face, a person, and a label, they have a different confrontation they have to come up with then. How do I reconcile that neighbor of mine that will come sit with my elderly mother, knowing she lives with a woman, knowing you hear them say “I love you” all the time? How can I be anti-gay with this situation? So the challenge is knowing when to speak up and in what language. I had a neighbor today say, “You look really familiar.” And she said something about, “I just feel like I’ve seen you somewhere.” And she said that and I said, “Well, back in 2000 I was in the news a lot because…” “That’s right! Because whenever I see you I think rainbows.” [laughter] But she was very positive about it. JB: Yeah. 41:22 RCH: Very positive. So the challenge is simply to be myself, and to be comfortable in my skin and in my spirit and be able to relate to people. JB: That’s great. RCH: [pause & laughter] JB: So… 41:49 RCH: I think one of the challenges for this community is to find a focus. To find a focus. JB: Is there too many focuses? RCH: Hm? JB: Do you find that there’s too many focuses? RCH: I’m not sure there is a focus.   21   �JB: Oh really? RCH: My, again from the perception… JB: Well of course. 42:01 RCH: … that I’ve only been back here two years. I retired from Charlotte MCC, Charlotte, North Carolina. Came back here and they were without a pastor and I eventually became the part-time pastor here. So I was gone for a while in between there, but always connected with the people here. Pride is coming up in a few weeks… JB: Yeah. 42:22 RCH: I haven’t seen much advertisement about that. Haven’t seen much publicity about it. JB: I haven’t heard of it. RCH: We have a meeting tomorrow night, a phone conference with one of the leaders of it. If you want a good turnout for something like that, you need to get it out there. JB: Social media. 42:39 RCH: One year there wasn’t one I understand, it just never came together and so there needs to be that focus not just for entertainment and fun, but also for education and for being there, so people can know who we are and can know who we are among the community themselves. I don’t see a lot of activities. Michael Smith has his brunches and I think that’s great, I love him. Love Michael. But there needs to be more of those kinds of activities, too. That have a place for a lot of people, I just don’t sense… a lot of direction I guess is the best way I can put it. JB: I can see that. 43:22 RCH: Now if something happened, if there was another issue like in 2000 with the shooting, I’m sure this community would come together, in a heart beat, I have no question about that, but it shouldn’t take something like that. JB: No. RCH: To bring us together. JB: No. It’s an unfortunate part of humanity I think.   22   �43:39 RCH: And I love the fact this History Project is going on because a lot of people, especially newer people coming into the community, into the town, don’t know anything about this, don’t know anything about our history as a town. They come in and they see Roanoke, this little town, 100,000 people, you know? City, excuse me. And so they need to know that there’s been a history and that we’ve always been here, we’ve always been here. 44:06 JB: And you mentioned that you were, you preached in Charlotte? RCH: When I left here, I felt like it was time to move on. JB: So you were here. RCH: I was here ten years. JB: Sorry to interrupt. RCH: And then I went to Charlotte, North Carolina and pastored the MCC there for eight years. JB: About what year? About what time was that? RCH: I left here in 2008. 44:30 JB: You left here in 2008 and you were there for 8 years? RCH: 8 years. JB: Okay. 44:32 RCH: And then I retired cause I was 65 and I wanted to be back here in town where my wife was, we had been back and forth all the time, and that lasted for about a year and a half. I started speaking when they were without a pastor and when they began a pastoral search I did not want to apply and I did not want to be back in the office but the night before the applications were due, I was telling God what God needed to do cause they really needed someone here and this quiet still voice said “you’re here,” so I quickly filled out the paperwork and there were four applicants and they chose me, so yeah. And the Charlotte community, as large as Charlotte is, large city as it is, has many of the same challenges that Roanoke has. JB: I’m not shocked. 45:20   23   �RCH: Mhm, like I said I’ve seen it in LA, I’ve seen it in Ventura, I’ve seen it in Charlotte and unless there’s a strong person or a strong group or a strong event to pull people together then you have all these little groups out. JB: And not a lot to unify everybody. RCH: And whatever one hears about this group, they get upset and then this group hears something else and there’s no combined communication. JB: Just a lot of pointing. 45:52 RCH: For example, I can’t believe we don’t have any kind of publication here. For years, we had something called the Pink Pages [the Blue Ridge Lambda Press]. Which is a great way of getting news out, informing the community about nationwide and worldwide events and that disappeared somewhere along the way.3 JB: When did this go on? RCH: Oh, the Pink Pages, I’m sure there are some in the archives. That was a really big activity and again – 1996 or before until about 2004, 5, 6. Because right now if you all were going to have a program about the Southwest [Virginia LGBTQ+] History Project, how would people know about that? JB: We’d have to go to the newspaper and that would be a challenge. RCH: That would be a challenge. You could put it on the internet, but a lot of people aren’t on the internet. JB: I mean, it is on the internet. RCH: But if they’re not on your site or have some connection. Whereas with a printed publication… [or] a print and online. In Charlotte they have something called QNotes. And it actually comes out in a magazine form, or a paper form, and there are actually some in the street at the boxes where you get newspapers? JB: Really? RCH: Oh yeah, it’s really exciting, I mean it is… JB: That’s a good idea.                                                                                                                         3  There  is  a  full  run  of  issues  of  the  Blue  Ridge  Lambda  Press  (1983-­‐2008)  available  in  the  LGBTQ  History  Collection,   Virginia  Room,  Roanoke  Public  Library.     24   �RCH: …to see that. But if there were a publication of some kind then open and affirming groups could advertise, there could be opinions, there could be interviews with people. So I just hope that’s something that will maybe come about down the road. 47:32 JB: And, at MCC, do you guys try and… obviously community is in the title, how do you incorporate the community? I know you mentioned you do NA groups and you have the Diversity [Center] here and … RCH: The food pantry. JB: Yeah, the food pantry. You basically just answered my question! 47:58 RCH: That’s okay. Well, and then hopefully being open to… At one time when Pride had a committee, they would use our building to meet and plan things. We have had other groups at other times that would use—we make our facility available is what I’m trying to say. We have, in the past, gone out to things like Relay for Life as a team. We have tried to be present in years past in other places and we’re working on that more again so that people know that we’re here. Quick story: when we bought this building, and we were looking at the lettering outside, I’m sure you saw the name on the outside of the church. A bunch of us were sitting around and we said “gosh, it’s gonna take a lot of money to put those letters up!” and one of the women said “Can I buy a vowel?” which reminded us of Wheel of Fortune. JB: Yeah, of course. RCH: Well as it turned out, a lot of different people bought letters. The bowling team at that time paid for “community.” JB: Really? RCH: That word. Another woman, her son had died and she paid for his initials. So, it kinda involved a lot of different groups like that, mm-hmm. 49:12 JB: That’s really cool because I noticed the senses of community within the church is just—it sounds astounding. Especially when we were walking through the church, you showed me the cross that was made from the rose trellis and all of these little relics that come together through time. What would you say is a big issue in the church today? RCH: Rebuilding. JB: Rebuilding? RCH: Rebuilding. The attendance has dropped off and we’re in the process of rebuilding that, and reminding people we’re still here. To reach out, like I said we have some folks who are   25   �coming in from other places that we didn’t quite expect. We want to start reaching out to the neighborhood more. People know there’s been a church on this corner for over a hundred years and I’m not sure a lot of the local neighbors have quite figured out who we are even though we’ve been here 14-15 years. JB: Oh yeah. 50:18 RCH: So, we’re gonna start, but we’ve don’t things before like one year, the time of the year when you change your smoke detector batteries, we went out to the neighborhood and gave out batteries. JB: Oh! That’s a creative idea. 50:31 RCH: One of the gentlemen in church has a garden and he wants to do a bigger garden and this summer he wants to be able to bring fruits and vegetables and just have them out there beside the door available because this neighborhood does not have good access to fresh fruit and fresh vegetables in grocery stores. So we’re trying to branch out that way. It’s not just getting people in to fill my pews. JB: Oh, of course. 50:58 RCH: That would be great. But letting people know that this is a house of prayer for all people, it’s a place for all people and we care about more than just your soul, you know? We care about more than just you being able to say the Lord’s prayer in correct order. JB: Yeah. RCH: If you’re hungry, if you’re needy, if your smoke detector won’t go off and your house catches on fire, then all of the bible verses in the world aren’t going to help a whole lot and I’m very much a Biblicist don’t get me wrong. Any Sunday you come you can be sure of two things in a church I’m pastoring. JB: Yeah. 51:29 RV: Number 1, communion will always be offered. And number 2, you will hear from the word. MCC has in its bylaws that communion is offered every Sunday. JB: That’s awesome, I grew up very scripture heavily, and I can hear, just from you talking, I can hear the scripture, I actually hear biblical verses… you paraphrasing things. 51:56   26   �RCH: See, I’m talking a language you understand, and you understand it’s a good communication. If I had come in and tried to talk totally in political issues—would totally be me, I’m not anti-political don’t get me wrong. But if I tried to talk in super high church terms, you just told me the faith you grew up in, that doesn’t use a lot of high ecclesiastical terms so a lot of it is figuring out how you can talk to people. Now when I retired—my bookshelves look kind of empty—when I retired I didn’t think I’d ever be pastoring again and I gave away 15 boxes of church bible scripture books to fellow pastors. I gave away probably another eight boxes of fiction books, so when I realized I was going to have all these bookshelves to fill up again— cause I used to have them full, I just thought okay, I have to work on this! JB: Work on this. That’s cool! 52:54 RCH: Are we finished? JB: I think so, well is there anything else that you would really like to share or say? RCH: I’m just excited about the project. I’m excited to see what goes on with it and be involved in any way I can be or that we can be. I donated some papers to the library, to the room [Virginia Room] there. But I have not been to see the gathering of the group yet. In fact I did that, I think, when I was still in Charlotte, someone commented about something they needed, and I’m really looking forward to—I love the class. You have a group that’s involved with us. JB: Yeah. 53:02 RCH: And I’m looking forward to working with the class at Roanoke College, so those are fun things. I often would speak to a group of social work students from Radford that would come and I would explain to them how you deal with LGBTQ families. I’ve spoken at Hollins a couple of times and I just like the fact that our church and our community is putting the word out about who we really are to so many people. JB: Planting the seed as I like to say… 54:00 RCH: I like the idea of putting a face with a description with a life. Because once I know your story, I have a hard time being upset with your group. JB: Yeah. RCH: That’s all. I’m glad you asked me to do this. I’m sorry that Richard couldn’t do this but I enjoyed it. 54:16 JB: I am, too, but this has really been awesome and I’m very happy and excited that we were able to interview you and have this documented for years and years and years to come. Because,   27   �like you said, the history is so important and as a young gay man, I am very naive in the history of all the people and all the steps and the events that led to me having so much privilege in my sexuality. RCH: Absolutely. JB: As you were saying, you never even talked about being gay, never even passed your mind that… I empathize now. I understand. So that’s why these stories are so important. 55:08 RCH: It is. It’s very important that you hear them but it’s also important we share them. JB: Exactly. RCH: I started… I had some notes to make to try and remember to talk about this and this and this, and I was making phone calls about the funeral. Didn’t get back to them. So when I first sat down here I was like, “what is he going to ask me?” But it helps me, going back through the history of some of this, too. JB: Yeah, it’s always fun to remember. 55:32 RCH: And to put it in perspective. And realize that had I not conducted all the funerals I did, during the heyday of AIDS, especially for people I didn’t know, I wouldn’t have had the ability to fill in where I’m needed now. Until we were talking tonight, I never made that connection of why I could do the others so easily, so thank you. JB: Of course, thank you, it’s been great. [END]   28   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Reverend Catherine Houchins Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Reverend Catherine Houchins Interviewer: Joel Bowers Interviewee: Rev. Catherine Houchins Date: March 11, 2019 Location: Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge Total Duration: 56:00 Transcription prepared by: Joel Bowers, Claudia Dodd, Shamira James, Dalton Rogers, Khira Smith Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11 March 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rev, Catherine Houchins, Joel Bowers, Claudia Dodd, Shamira James, Dalton Rogers, Khira Smith Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HouchinsCatherine https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5536/ReedMyer.1.mp3 97fcbf6c89d3d41c42e0884260ce530a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5536/ReedMyer.pdf b77cdd3e305014f1dade3dc24ad6d4ab PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Myer S. Reed October 21, 2019 Interviewer: G.S. Rosenthal Narrator: Myer S. Reed Date: October 21, 2019 Location: Roanoke Public Library Transcribed by: Megan Reynolds, Kierra Burda Duration: 1:13:49 Index: 0:00 = Introduction and childhood in Southside Virginia (1947–1950s) 2:54 = First experiences with sexual activity in childhood (1950s) 6:10 = School & childhood, relationship with parents, exploring his sexuality (1950s-early 1960s) 11:59 = Attending college at William & Mary (1965-1969) 15:57 = Attending graduate school at Tulane (c. 1969-1972); experiences in New Orleans; coming out as gay (during summer break in Williamsburg, 1970); gay literature and pornography 22:02 = Gay life in New Orleans (early 1970s) 24:00 = Description of PhD dissertation in Sociology 26:42 = Teaching at the University of Virginia then at Radford University (mid-1970s) 29:35 = Visiting the Trade Winds for the first time (1973); renting an apartment in Blacksburg 34:39 = Dating and gay community in Roanoke in the 1970s 36:53 = Bars, discos, and dance bars in Roanoke (1970s); the Roanoke Police Department Vice Squad, and undercover cops at The Trade Winds 41:25 = Gay people at Radford University 43:13 = involvement with the Roanoke Valley Gay Alliance / Blue Ridge Lambda Press activist community (1980s-early 1990s) 48:25 = Early AIDS/HIV Crisis (1980s); impacts in D.C. and in Old Southwest, Roanoke; forming an AIDS Support Group, meeting at his house on Lake Drive SW 57:05 = Becoming a licensed professional counselor; working with gay clients 1:01:13 = Retiring from Radford; dealing with the death of his father; suffering a heart attack (late 1990s); moving to Phoenix, Arizona in 1997 1:10:35 = Starting the Gay Supper Club in Roanoke (late 1980s-early 1990s) 1 �00:03 GSR: This is Gregory Samantha Rosenthal. I’m here with Myer Reed. We’re at the Roanoke Public Library, the downtown branch at Elmwood Park. It’s October 21, 2019, and this is an interview for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Myer, for being with us. 00:25 MSR: Absolutely. 00:27 GS: So, we want to start with your childhood. Where did you grow up and what was that like? 00:33 MSR: I grew up in what is Southside Virginia, which if you drew a line straight down from Richmond, [you’d] hit the North Carolina line. That’s where I was born. I grew up outside of a little town called La Crosse. I mean, a little town, 700 population. I lived in a little community that was straight out of the 19th century, called Marengo. There was a famous battle that Napolean had, [in] Marengo in Italy, and for some curious reason they named this little stop along the road Marengo. It was a good place to grow up. It was a very gentle, secure, protective place until I came out and then, you know, that story. But it was very wonderful growing up. I had a lot of neighbors who were very warm and parenting to me. Not disciplining, just watching out and encouraging and being very nice to me. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] But there was just an incredible underground—sexual underground—in this very remote little community. I was aware of a lot that was going on, just from my own experience and the children that I knew, very experienced. They would talk and gossip and what have you, but that’s too much to get into. 02:54 GS: Are you saying that you were aware, from a pretty young age, of homosexual activity? 03:01 MSR: Oh yeah, that is what I had. And I had a boyfriend once, in Phoenix, [Arizona,] who laughingly used to say that he was eight before he was seven. 03:16 GSR: I don’t know what that means. 03:18 MSR: He was ‘ate,’ he had had oral sex… 2 �03:19 GSR: Oh. 03:21 MSR: …before he was seven. I was seduced early on by a guy who lived behind us and his uncle had been abusing him, guarantee it, I knew. He never said it out right, but, one plus one, I knew what was going on. And then later on, that was when, I guess, I was about seven or eight. Later on, there was a guy who moved into the neighborhood, a basketball player at the high school we were in and he seduced me. And, I don’t know how much [directness] you want… 04:20 GSR: It’s your level of comfort. 04:23 MSR: He’s now dead. Both of them are dead, curiously. And this guy had been having sex in the town, La Crosse, with buddies there. Came down—he missed his buddies, so to speak—so he kind of introduced me… he introduced me to a broader range of sexuality than I had had. To be frank, he wanted to be screwed. He was like, at the time, twelve/thirteen and he was already very familiar with that [MSR addition to transcript: anal sex]. Strangely, [we] had never heard of lubricants. So, for about four years, we almost daily had sex. 05:14 GSR: Wow. 05:15 MSR: Yeah. 05:16 GSR: This is, you were in elementary school? 05:19 MSR: We didn’t have a middle school where we were. It was like late elementary school, [it] was maybe seventh grade through sophomore year. So, that was my introduction to being… well, the word “gay” wasn’t used. 05:37 GSR: Right. I imagine that none of this world was people who identified as “gay.” 05:44 3 �MSR: Oh, heavens no. Once I suggested to him [MSR addition to transcript: the basketball player] that I might want to give him a blowjob, and he said… oh, he was horrified. He said, “oh no, only queers do that.” Goodness, I have been screwing you for years now, but that was not something he’d ever heard about, being queer. 06:10 GSR: Let me ask you also about your school and your community at that time. Was it segregated. This was in the [19]50s? 06:16 MSR: Completely segregated [MSR addition to transcript: despite the near 50/50 composition of the county]. All the schools I went through were segregated, even undergraduate school. There were only very, very few black people [at William & Mary]. 06:30 GSR: And your family… well, I'm imagining the experiences you had, you were very tightlipped about at the time? 06:41 MSR: Oh, yeah. There [was] no one to talk to about it. 06:45 GSR: What about girlfriends? Did you feel an expectation? 06:50 MSR: My mother did. My mother felt an expectation [laughter] and I think she sensed early on that I was different and going to be queer. And boy, [at] twelve years old, she gave me a shotgun for Christmas and I was furious. I knew exactly what that meant. [It] meant straighten up. Even at twelve, that was very clear to me. I understood what she was doing. In seventh grade, there was like some little seventh-grade prom at the end of the year and she lined up someone, some girl for me to take, and took me there, and blah blah blah. But I resisted. My father never really intervened in those ways and was protective of me, I think [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] [MSR addition to transcript: But in the 1950s homosexuality in boys was believed to be the fault of the mother.] 08:24 GSR: Was he masculine? 08:26 4 �MSR: No, he was a gentle man, and I mean that in a very true way. Kind of soft-spoken and very polite and in a true way, a gentleman. He ran what was called at the time a country store and it was the country store in the area. And as a kid, I started working there when I was at least eleven years old. And I really kind of liked the experience. I liked the jobs I had, like placing items on the shelves. The delivery trucks would come and they would put them out in the back area and then I would have the job, generally the evenings, afternoons, placing those cans and whatever else on the shelves. I would get the strangest kind of satisfaction out of that. Organizing, having the straight lines. I have always had a merchant side of my experience. My career is really academic, but I was a merchant as well. I can tell you about that. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] 09:51 GSR: So, let me ask you, just before we kind of finish childhood… 09:58 MSR: Oh, we’re finished with childhood [laughter]? 09:59 GSR: Yeah, we want to get to Roanoke, too. So, when you were in high school, you know finishing up high school, are you saying that you didn’t really date anyone, then? You didn’t date girls and you certainly didn’t date guys. 10:16 MSR: No. The one girl that I asked to both proms, junior, senior proms, turned out to be a lesbian. Surprise, surprise. “Birds of a feather…” we know that story. 10:30 MSR: What do you remember about what you thought about your identity at the time? Did you have any way to map that, any terms, or you just thought, “gee, I'm different. I wish I liked girls.” How did it feel at that time? 10:49 MSR: It's hard to remember those things. When I was chairing the sociology department at Radford—that’s getting way ahead in the story—I interviewed a guy named Rick Troiden who was also being interviewed at Miami [University] of Ohio. He had done his dissertation, and was going to publish it as a book form, on coming out, and I almost could recall the name of the book but I can’t right now. He used [a] phrase to characterize what people did when they were acting gay, but not out. And he said you would “bracket that experience in consciousness.” It was over here. You didn’t probably label it and it was protective not to label it. It’s like the buddy who wanted to be screwed, but he couldn't identify with the term “queer.” 5 �11:59 GSR: So then you went to college in the late [19]60s? What was happening there? 12:07 MSR: Someone was watching over me because… I went to William & Mary undergraduate, and the guy who I was assigned as a roommate with was gay. He wasn't out; he was in the same kind of position. But there was a recognition of familiarity there, and his closest friend, named Rick, still is a great friend of mine today. He lives in Palm Springs. He comes over to Phoenix [Arizona] to visit every so often and I really love the man. There developed a friendship with about eight people and all but one of them turned out to be queer. 13:09 GSR: So you kind of knew it, but you didn’t name it? Or did you name it at the time? 13:14 MSR: No. I certainly knew the name by that point. I think you could find the word [MSR addition to transcript: “gay” or “homosexual”] in the general press more often. I remember in high school going to the library and sneakily looking up the word “homosexuality” in a dictionary. So I had somehow come across that term. That was [when I was] like a junior in high school [mid-1960s]. 13:44 GSR: You graduated, what year did you graduate? 13:46 MSR: [19]69. 13:47 GSR: Okay. 13:52 MSR: I graduated ‘69 from William & Mary undergraduate, and ‘65 from high school. 13:57 GSR: So then what was the next step for you? 14:00 MSR: What, after they graduated…? 6 �14:01 GSR: After William & Mary. 14:03 MSR: Oh… [pause] I started fishing for graduate school money and at that time, boy was it plentiful. It’s amazing to me how people have to borrow so much money to go to graduate school [now]. I got a National Defense Fellowship. I applied to Vanderbilt and Tulane and a number of other places. Well, Tulane offered me the most, and wowie, that’s New Orleans, that’s an exciting place! As much as I loved Williamsburg, it was tame, not that I was used to excitement in any case, cause I’m from Virginia. But it was very romantic. So I thought “yeah, I’ll go down there.” But they not only offered me a National Defense Fellowship, which paid me handsomely, but they also offered me a teaching fellowship. Jeez. You know, so I saved enough money out of my first two years of graduate school to go to Europe for about a month. I should [not] write about that now because people’s experiences with college loans are so incredibly painful. But that tells you about the shift in public funding of education. 15:44 GSR: So it sounds like you went straight into grad school? 15:49 MSR: Yeah. 15:50 GSR: So, summer/fall of ‘69, you landed in New Orleans? 15:53 MSR: Yes, in my first car, a Volkswagon. 15:57 GSR: What was New Orleans like, how did it change you? 16:01 MSR: Oh it was so hot! I drove down there in August, cause classes were gonna start in September, and as soon as I got down there I went to the dormitory and I checked in and all that stuff. And then I thought, “I think I’ll go down to the market.” [MSR addition to transcript: the French Market.] Well, this was August, like mid to late afternoon, and I literally got sick, nauseous, from the heat because that little Volkswagen didn’t have air conditioning. Heavens no. Good grief. So, anyway, I wound up in a dormitory there—graduate dorm—and I stayed there for three plus years in that dormitory. 7 �16:45 GSR: And what was the state of your sexuality or your sexual identity at that time? 16:51 MSR: It improved [laughter]. 16:53 GSR: At William & Mary it was still... you were… 16:57 MSR: I came… I’ll tell you how I came out. One of the good jobs that students could get at William & Mary was for Colonial Williamsburg, driving the tour buses. They paid well, it was a nice comfortable job, and two, three of my friends that were all queer had rented an apartment and I had finished for the summer at Tulane and wanted to come back to Williamsburg because I had a lot of romantic feelings for Williamsburg. And stayed with these guys that I liked a lot. And the first night I was there my friend, Stan, said “I got to go out and get some [milk], why don’t you come ride with me?” I said, “okay.” On the way back, Stan says, “There’s something I got to tell you. Mike, Mike, and I [are] queer.” And [at] that time to hear the word “queer” was striking. Now it’s the more acceptable term, because it is more inclusive but not at the time. You advanced when you said “I’m gay.” But it's okay. That was a very interesting confession and it was like wow, wow... I’m finally going to have some friends who are gay. But that wasn't my first thought. My first thought was, and the first thing out of my mouth, was “well I’ve had some experiences in that direction but I’m not going there.” Big lie. And he says “oh well. One of the two Mikes has a nice porn collection. He would want to show it to you.” And I said “alright.” So [they] were all at work the next day, and guess where I was? I went into his closet, and looked for that collection, and found it. Oh boy [laughter]! I had never had such [eye] candy, you know? 19:11 GSR: There’s so much there. I mean, I’m really surprised that he used the word “queer.” 19:16 MSR: I am too. 19:17 GSR: It was a slur, right? It’s derogatory. 19:19 MSR: It was a slur and that’s kind of where he was, or what he’d had to grapple with. 19:28 8 �GSR: And your response to him, saying “I have some experience, but…” Did that come from a place that, at that time, were all of your experiences the abusive ones, or had you started to have positive ones? 19:44 MSR: [interrupting], Well, I have to tell you that my experiences, I wouldn’t describe them as abusive. I had one guy, a man who worked for my father who I would say, when I was about fifteen, once tried to abuse me. And I said no. But those other experiences—the first guy, he was being abused and he was simply replicating what he had learned, including passing on the same threats that his uncle was passing onto him, he passed onto me. But I never thought of the experiences with those two guys as being abusive. [MSR addition to transcript: They were age mates and it was mutual fun and pleasure though not without anxiety.] 20:37 GSR: Yeah. [pause] So, when you talk about going back to William & Mary to see your friends, back to Williamsburg to see your friends, was that your first summer back, do you know? 20:47 MSR: That was the first summer… that I went back to William & Mary… 20:49 GSR: So, 1970?... So—[with] my historian hat on here—so by 1970, you've had the Gay Liberation Front and some of these groups out of Stonewall [Uprising] have started to come out, and there’s some newsletters going around. Was that at all part of your friends’ journey to coming out as queer or was it something you were becoming aware of when you were at Tulane? That there was new groups or new publications coming out? 21:19 MSR: Yeah. I was a long-term and early subscriber to the Advocate, but I can’t remember when I started that. I think it was after I had come back and taken the job at Radford. I had my own place when I started subscribing to that.1 In New Orleans, I could go into that history, but you're looking for Roanoke. But it was… New Orleans had been historically a queer city. A place where people from all over the South could come and feel somewhat safer to be out. 22:02 GSR: When you were in New Orleans did you explore bars? Did you explore cruising? Is that part… 22:09 1 The Advocate began publication in 1967. MSR suggests the early 1970s for his initial subscription. 9 �MSR: I didn’t explore… I’ve always been a bit of a coward, you know? I didn't do a lot of cruising. I would stare at guys. Oh god, did I stare at guys. But in terms of learning where you could pick up a guy, I wasn't into that because I simply lacked the courage or something. I don't know. But one night, I remember, that I had gone... one of the oldest bars in New Orleans was Lafitte in Exile. It may even still be going. I think it started in the [19]40s. And it was famous for its triangular bar, where you could—boy, you could make a lot of eye contact with the three sides. It was packed. It was a Saturday night but it took me forever. I rode around and around and around in the French Quarter before I had the courage to park the car, or even find a space, and go in there. It was more than an hour of getting my gumption up to go in and I did, and I’m not going to tell you that story. It kind of worked out but it was funny-awkward. But I think that was the one experience of going out. But there were guys in the dormitory; there were guys around me that were out. One of my professors at Tulane wasn’t really out, but everyone knew he was gay. He was alright and he would give me the wink, you know, kind of to let me know it’s okay. 24:00 GSR: So, you did your coursework and stuff at Tulane, and then your dissertation. Did you say that you were only there for three or four years? 24:10 MSR: Well, let’s not make that dissertation so quick… [laughter] I completed my course work and then I made the classic mistake of graduate students. [Speaking towards student assistant in the room] I hope you’re listening. I selected a dissertation topic that was way too big to eat. Oh gosh. And it was suggested to me by one of the best people, one of the most well-known people in the department. And it was an interest of his and I didn't have any competing idea in my head on what my dissertation was going to be. Anyway… [pause] the topic was going to be on the sociology of the history of the sociology of religion. The sociology of science piece, in which I would take all of the articles that dealt with religion in the major three [or] four major journals of sociology starting in 1895 and up to 1970, and develop an analysis questionnaire sheet to review them, and then looking for a variety of dimensions. The most important dimension was, was this person, who wrote the article, a religious professional? And therefore, in an institution that might be restricting what he could explore and what he could say, or she could say. But it was mostly hes. Not surprisingly, you can find a variety of things that would track with being a religious professional, including not really doing anything that was any way critical of the institutions. This is too much to go into. I wound up doing 400 hundred pages. 26:29 GSR: Wow. 26:30 MSR: Wow is right! And I don't think I’ve read that sucker since then [laughter]. 10 �26:35 GSR: So tell me about leaving New Orleans. What was the next step? Did you start teaching somewhere? 26:42 MSR: The man I was doing my dissertation under took a position at the University of Virginia. They wanted him, so I went there with him. I was his underling, you know. So I went with him there and they gave me some nighttime teaching to do. I was there for a year, year and a half, and finally… [pause] my mentor learned that there was this position opening up at Radford [University]. What was happening in the state of Virginia in [19]73 was that the state was giving a lot of money to the state colleges and universities to expand them because there was so many students, post-war babies coming on the scene. 27:51 GSR: Was Radford co-ed at that time? 27:54 MSR: No, it had just gone co-ed. But it had… historically it had been a women’s teaching college. 28:04 GSR: So you showed up at Radford… 28:06 MSR: … interviewed for the job, got it… 28:10 GSR: ... not out, I’m sure, when you applied for the job? 28:13 MSR: No. Oh no, that was out of the question. 28:16 GSR: So you were in the Sociology department? How long were you at Radford? Sounds like it was a big… 28:23 MSR: 23 years. I didn't go looking. I have to tell you though, within the first few months of my being there, I was out. I was completely out. Meet another gay person and “oh, I am too” blah 11 �blah blah. But not out to the department, but they all knew. We don't hide much from folks, particularly if gayness is coming more into people’s consciousness. There was this old woman at the department who described me, so I heard, as a “well-known homosexual on campus” [laughter]. I should have been fearful of this, but I wasn’t. I laughed like you laughed. 29:21 GSR: Tell me about starting to create a gay life in Southwest Virginia, after you landed in Radford. Did you pretty soon hear about Roanoke and was Roanoke drawing you in? 29:35 MSR: I already knew. I already knew about the Trade Winds, which was the [only] bar that was open then, historically supposedly one of the oldest in the state. When I came down from Charlottesville to interview for the job, [and] I made it to the Trade Winds. I stayed in Roanoke and [went] to the Trade Winds. Whoof… Thinking back on that, how oppressive that was. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] 30:15 GSR: What was it like? The Trade Winds. What was the crowd like? What do you remember? 30:21 MSR: Well, the first thing to know is, of course, you know—you already know—the ground floor, that was a restaurant, where those two Italian brothers ran a restaurant.2 And I have a little thing to interject here. I just recently read some more history of the Italian experience in the United States. You probably already know that there not only were Blacks lynched, there were a good number of Italians who were lynched. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] [T]hey were seen to be not white. They were dark. [pause] So, historically, supposedly, the [gay] bars of New York, and any major city, were run by Italians and the explanation has always been, I think, that it’s because of their connections to the Mafia, maybe. A little bit of prejudice there, and their link to the police because of the number of Italians who became police. But okay, that’s probably true, but I wonder how much of that openness to having gay bars was beyond just exploitation and something about being able to identify with other men who had been so rejected—men and women who had been so rejected. 32:09 GSR: Yeah, and we’ve heard people say—they’re all deceased to my understanding—that two of the three brothers who ran the place were assumedly gay. 32:20 2 N.B.: other oral history narrators in the LGBTQ History Collection have suggested that the Georges were Lebanese-American rather than Italian-American. 12 �MSR: I didn't know that. 32:22 GSR: That came up in other interviews and it was like, why, why did they run this place? Who knows? It’s just hearsay. So you go down into the basement, through the back… 32:34 MSR: Yeah, I went to the back and I went into the basement. Of course, going into the basement has its own connotations. One time my father was gonna have a discussion with me about sex, I don’t need to go into that. He said, “why don’t you come with me down to the basement.” Oh jeez. Here we go! How about that association? [laughter] I went in there and there weren’t many people there. There were local folks and I didn’t know anyone and I wasn't always the boldest about meeting people. It was, at least, it said to me that you can meet people here. 33:24 GSR: So how did you start to find a gay community? A sense of community? 33:29 MSR: I also have to say that when I interviewed at Radford, I looked at the town of Radford, oh, please forgive me, and I said “no, I can’t live here. I cannot live there.” I was coming from New Orleans and from Charlottesville. I knew I couldn't do Radford. I took an apartment in Blacksburg, and I just assumed I would probably be meeting guys there. And I did, but not being someone who was out cruising wherever availability is, I met people mostly through, I think, going to Roanoke, to the bars. 34:20 GSR: Yeah, I imagine in Blacksburg there is a lot of Tech people. Virginia Tech mostly. 34:27 MSR: Yeah. But they had their gay people, too, you know. Not everyone there was an engineer [laughter]. I’m sorry, that’s stereotypical. 34:35 GSR: So did you live in Blacksburg then, most of your twenty-some years? 34:39 MSR: No. I lived there for several years and then I had a boyfriend who was working for Norfolk and Southern. He was a clerk—he’s still alive. In the Norfolk and Western / Norfolk and Southern railroad bureaucracy, there were no jobs for women, I don’t think. All the clerks, [like] secretaries, were men. So I met him, and the question became, he had his own house here in 13 �Roanoke, and I was living in Blacksburg. So if I decided that, why don’t I buy a house that’s halfway between us, and so I don’t have so far to go, or maybe he can come and live with me. And he did, we were together for three or four years [MSR addition to transcript: in the little town of Shawsville.] 35:41 GSR: And so tell me more about getting involved with the Roanoke community. I’m assuming you met your boyfriend at the time in Roanoke? 35:52 MSR: Mhmm. 35:53 GSR: So were you going to other bars? Did you become aware of an activist group or community? 36:01 MSR: Yeah, you know, there was a lot of knowledge floating in the air. And I was meeting people, not necessarily to trick, but just meeting other gays in a variety of contexts. I can’t recall a lot of the specifics of it, that was some millions of years ago. 36:23 GSR: Did you ever go down to right here [GSR gestured out the window towards Bullitt Avenue, formerly a gay cruising area in the 1960s and 1970s]? 36:27 MSR: No, no I didn’t. I was aware of that, but no, I never actually… that wasn’t me to be able to make that cruising. 36:37 GSR: Yeah, the cruising block here. 36:40 MSR: Yeah, that was a missed opportunity [laughter]. 36:42 GSR: There are a lot of stories. 36:46 14 �MSR: I love Larry Bly’s story about looking down from the hotel.3 36:53 GSR: Well, let me name some other bars… or some of the discos? Did you go to the discos? 37:00 MSR: [MSR addition to transcript: Three days ago] when we came in, we [were] driving around town, and we passed by the Last Straw. And I had just a real gush of positive feelings; it’s a church thing, I think now, fortunately my mind blanked that out, but I saw the building and I was aware of that place. That came later, and you will know the specific date which that came. But in terms of my history, what I recall is that there was the Trade Winds, which was not great, and I think the Last Straw developed. I liked that a lot. It was a cozy place. It was so small that it forced people to be more open with one another and more outgoing, and it was fun. It was never a raunchy place, although none of the bars were, you know, there wasn’t any… if you wanted to have backroom sex you’d have to go to D.C., as far as I know anyway. 38:10 GSR: Not at the Park or…? 38:11 MSR: I’m sure it happened, but I wasn’t aware [laughter]. Good Virginia boy that I was. 38:23 GSR: Did you like the dance clubs or did you prefer the…? 38:27 MSR: I remember there was a place called Murphy’s. Murphy’s was run by an older straight couple, I remember, but before that there was a bar owned by several [MSR addition to transcript: straight] guys. 38:45 GSR: The Horoscope? 38:46 MSR: The Horoscope. Oh, that was when disco finally came to Roanoke and they opened that dance bar. You weren’t going to dance in the Trade Winds. Well you could… I should tell you that story. They opened that third floor up [at the Trade Winds] at some point and made it a dance place. Well, of course, the State of Virginia, in all of its liberalism, made it illegal for 3 See Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Oral History Interview with Larry Bly,” March 1, 2016, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries. 15 �homosexuals to dance with one another. And I recall being there on a Saturday night and looking around and you can pick out… I knew nothing about the [Roanoke Police Department] vice squad, but God, when you’re dressed like you’re going to a Baptist church and you’re standing there in the middle of a queer place, you’re going to stand out boys! 39:43 GSR: So these are undercover police? 39:45 MSR: Yeah, and I thought… it made me angry. I wasn’t fearful; it made me angry that they were there. And that was more and the more the reaction that people were feeling, gay people were feeling. Not just in New York City, but all over I think there was something welling up that we ain’t gonna take that anymore. They didn’t wind up arresting anyone to my knowledge, but anyway. It’s a lot of history here. 40:19 GSR: Yeah, it’s interesting to hear about the vice squad because we have some stuff we’ve found about the police department and their efforts to entrap gay men, I mean right down here [on Bullitt Avenue] in the cruising [scene], and they would pose as tricks or whatever. But it’s funny in your story because it sounds like they posed so poorly, if you’re going to try to blend in… 40:44 MSR: No, because they were just looking for guys who were dancing, that alone was enough [to arrest you]. They’re not looking for guys who were picking up someone, they were looking for guys who were dancing so they didn’t need to be too… but people continued to dance in front of them so I don’t know what they were thinking and what they were up to. I’m sure you must have heard the rumor that was very active during the time of all the voracious police crackdowns on gay people in this city, was that the chief of police’s daughter was lesbian. Have you heard that one? 41:24 GSR: No. 41:25 MSR: I tell you, that was the most active rumor about at the time, and he could not accept that. 41:32 GSR: This was 1970s-ish? 41:34 16 �MSR: Uh huh. Early [19]70s, yeah. So, but I had a dean, my dean, one of the first times I was at a bar after I started teaching at Radford, a young girl came up to me—because I think she was in her late teens/early twenties—and she identified herself as the daughter of that dean. And I thought, “Oh my goodness, how should I take this?” But she was very out and very friendly. Talked about the struggles with her dad, but he wasn’t going to throw her out, and that [she] knew. So I didn’t ever feel threatened by him, though I know that when I tried to hire Rick Troiden, that he didn’t get hired, and he was clearly the most impressive candidate out of several that we had to consider. And this dean made it a point to say to me like that Troiden wasn’t going to make it, and he said, “And you understand why?” Well, I think he was trying to say, well Troiden was too out because he was doing his dissertation on this topic and was planning to write a book, so that the University wasn’t ready for that degree of openness. [MSR addition to transcript: A curious side note is that a few years later rumors developed that our long term university president had a boyfriend in Richmond.] 43:13 GSR: Let me move forward in the conversation to the 1980s… 43:20 MSR: Wow, wow, wow, wow… skipping so much. 43:22 GSR: So we’ve been looking at a lot of the Blue Ridge Lambda Press, the ‘pink pages,’ and your name was frequently in it, particularly there’s an advertisement for your—did you have a private practice of counseling and stuff? 43:34 MSR: Oh, we are jumping ahead… Yeah. 43:38 GSR: So I guess my question is, were you involved with the Blue Ridge Lambda Press people? 43:45 MSR: I have to say, and put this one on the record, that you’ve already interviewed him, but Gerry Jennings was the backbone of a lot of stuff that got accomplished in the gay community. My name might have been mentioned here and there as someone, that’s because I was very out, and I was outspoken, and I had a professional position, and therefore my voice had more weight maybe than some other people’s. But I was not good at organizing and I did not really contribute that much. I did my job of being outspoken, and at two points I was particularly outspoken and that is, we had Mary Boenke, who you know from Parents [and Families of Lesbians and Gays], PFLAG, and my friend Allison… you’ve got to interview her. The two of us and Sam Garrison 17 �and Gerry Jennings, I think, went to have a conversation with the mayor, and he was not…. He was not a friend of our community.4 45:16 GSR: We can talk about public officials. 45:18 MSR: Oh we can? Okay, he was not a friend of the gay community. And there was, I forget, you know you forget the sequence of things, the issue of amending the city’s ordinances so that gay people would not be discriminated in city… 45:42 GSR: Employment. 45:43 MSR: …employment. That was on the table. We had gotten that on the table. So there was a meeting, I don’t know where it was, there was a council, city council candidates were there and it was an open forum to ask them questions. There was like about nine or ten of the active gay people in town who were there. And I say that I wasn’t very involved, but sometimes I was the one who had the guts to say something, and I had the big mouth to speak. And so I stood up and I made sure that that was a very open agenda, and that the gay community was very eager to have the support of the city council. And it didn’t happen right away, but in time. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] 46:54 GSR: I’ve heard about that forum… I think it was 1990. Does that sound right? 47:00 MSR: There was another time, it might have been at the same forum, when all of a sudden I had a mic put in front of my face. And the guy [who] was interviewing me [had] been told that I would speak up for one of the channels here, and, you know, I said what I had to say. And went home, and my partner at the time and I turned on the TV and there was this interview, and it starts out, “Myer Reed is gay.” [laughter] Can we just say these things quietly, dear? [laughter] 47:48 GSR: On television. 4 See Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Interview with Gerry Jennings,” February 23, 2016, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries; Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Interview with Mary Boenke,” October 6, 2016, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries. 18 �47:49 MSR: Yeah! I wasn’t ready for that I thought, “Oh boy!” But it’s okay, everyone knew. It was alright for me to do that. It had no repercussions, it really didn’t. 48:00 GSR: Did you have tenure, and did that make you feel protected? 48:04 MSR: I did. I did have tenure. I started out as an assistant professor and then I pretty quickly got associate. It wasn’t too long before I was a full. And there wasn’t a lot of… If there was whispering in the background, I don’t think it was allowed to get anywhere. 48:35 GSR: Let me ask you about HIV and AIDS, that was becoming a bigger concern in the [19]80s at that same time. What was Roanoke like? What was the world of that here? 48:50 MSR: Well, I have to take a breath, because as you well know, that was like all of a sudden this very dark cloud descend[ing]. And yes, we heard about the “gay cancer.” And we heard about it in San Francisco and New York. But then we heard about it in D.C. And you know, D.C. was a favorite place for gay men who wanted to have a bigger playground to go [to] on the weekends. The Lost and Found was the most popular bar, but then there were the baths. It was a time of great liberation for gay men. And we were feeling our oats, and to have that bastard of a disease come into our party was just… I mean if I had any any thought of resisting doing this interview, it was us getting to that point because it’s stepping back into a time. It’s just hard for anyone in that time to tell you what that’s like, although you probably know something of it. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] [MSR addition to transcript: All of sudden we had flocks of friends dying.] It was nothing like what the guys in D.C. or San Francisco were experiencing, like everyone they knew was ill, but I was living in Old Southwest. I had moved from the house that I had bought before up in Charlottesville—that’s a different story—to coming here, and Old Southwest was like a little gay ghetto. “Yay, we’re almost in the big city,” you know, “gay neighbors, wow isn’t that strange and different and wonderful.” This is a liberated zone. So we were concentrated, a lot of folks were concentrated there. And they’re just… too much… Can we stop a second, I have a name to mention? 51:33 GSR: Maybe after, we don’t want to break it. 51:36 19 �MSR: Okay, I’ll tell you the name later. A guy who I still maintain contact with because he’s on Facebook—that’s where all the old folks are—he could tell you a lot. His partner… oh, he was such a sweet man. And he was active. His name was Curtis. Curtis was one of the first. There were some very popular guys, they were very handsome, who we all either had had sex with or wanted to have sex with at some point, and they were all getting killed. If you, of course… these things became clear very quickly that if you had been in a passive [role], favored being a bottom, the terms we use, you had much greater risk. None of that was coherent, but I hope the emotion is there. 52:55 GSR: It was. No, it was coherent. How do you feel like that the AIDS crisis changed you or changed the community, people’s behaviors changed? Or were you involved in any of the local AIDS advocacy stuff? 53:16 MSR: I was asked. I was asked. There was a woman who was a clinical psychologist at the VA [Veterans Administration] System, and the VA System got the first AIDS patients here. They were mostly guys who had been involved in the military and came back. Or they maybe got them because there was a physician at the VA who early on began to specialize, and became really the major spokesperson for the medical community on how to deal with AIDS. And this clinical psychologist was at the VA. She called me one day. And I had developed—I haven’t told you how I developed my practice, but anyway I had a counseling practice. She called me and she told me that there was a need to have a support group run, and she would like to have my help in doing that as an out gay man, and she was a straight woman, and so she wanted me to help. And of course the first thought in my body was run away, but what could I do? I had to say “yes, I will.” And I don’t know how long we ran that, a couple years maybe? A little bit more? For a period of time they met at my house, because there was nowhere else to meet. But then there were a number of the guys who were uncomfortable meeting at my house, and I understand that. So somehow an alternative was developed, and I really don’t know what we did at that point. But it had gotten beyond the point where there were like three or four or five or seven guys there, you know, there that the community was having much more of a problem, issue with AIDS. 55:23 GSR: Do you remember if this group had a name, were you called something? Or it was just…? 55:30 MSR: I think the AIDS Support Group.There was nothing formal to it at all. 55:36 GSR: And it was in Old Southwest, in your apartment there, or your house there? 20 �55:39 MSR: No, oh heavens. We’re talking about gays in their twenties and thirties at that time, we were changing the world by remodeling every available house. So I had three of them that I remodeled, and I was out on Lake Drive at that point in time. Do you have any idea where that is? Behind Lewis Gale Hospital. One of the first suburbs ever to be developed in Roanoke was out in that direction. And they built these lakes, there are three lakes out there, which were meant to draw people way out into the country like that, so they put these houses around these attractive lakes where they can go rowing in their boats with their children. So I found a house out there, loved it. It was a mid-century modern before that term was being used, and it had been owned by a local TV personality here in the [19]50s called Uncle Looney [laughter]. 56:50 GSR: Never heard of him. 56:52 MSR: No, no you wouldn’t have. Ask someone who was here in the ‘50s. Everyone knew Uncle Looney. And we found wigs and stuff left behind by Uncle Looney. 57:02 GSR: So that’s where you had the AIDS support group? 57:05 MSR: Yeah. Which wasn’t convenient for everyone but damn, that’s what we had. That’s what I could offer. Back to counseling, what happened there is when I started getting more seriously involved in relationships, I realized that I lacked some skills or I needed something, some help. So that was the first time that I went into therapy for myself. And turns out I wound up seeing this man that I’m still in contact with today. He was head of the family therapy program at Virginia Tech, and the family therapy program there was very good. So when I got through doing that, through counseling with him, I decided I’m going to get training in family therapy because it fits very naturally with sociology. And Jim was very welcoming of me, and over a period of four years I went and jumped through all the hoops, took the classes, did this, that, and the other, got the outside training, dah dah dah, to get licensed. At that time there was no family therapy license—there is and has been for the last ten years or so—but it was a licensed professional counselor, which is what you became. So I did that. So that’s why I had that practice and that’s why that ad was in the paper. But this was always done in addition to never dropping a thing at Radford. 59:00 GSR: I wonder if, did you attract LGBT clients to your practice? 21 �59:05 MSR: That was a large part of it. And there were other counselors who knew that I was gay and so they might refer people to me, but there was those ads and, you know, gossip in the community. And most of the issues you know what people would come for. They came mainly for the relationship with their families and the rejection that they were already experiencing, or fearing rejection if and when they came out. Sometimes it was couples, kind of a marriage therapy thing. 59:42 GSR: Sounds like you might have been the first licensed counselor to be there for LGBT people who needed that here, does that sound right? 59:56 MSR: I think I can say that. There were a couple others that came along and are still here and do great jobs. My mentor in the family therapy program had a gay son, I didn’t know it at the time, but he had a gay son. So he had had some familiarity with dealing with gays in his family. That was helpful to have that, but there were people I encountered, not necessarily at Virginia Tech but elsewhere when I kind of got involved in family therapy things, who were really bothered by the idea of someone who was gay being involved in family therapy. “What would you know about families?” Excuse me. Didn’t grow up like topsy, you know? 1:01:08 GSR: So we’re at about an hour that we’ve been talking. 1:01:11 MSR: Not hard for me cover in an hour. 1:01:13 GSR: Yeah, and so I was wondering if we can talk about leaving Roanoke, when you left Roanoke, and just what are some of the later stages of your life so far that you’ve experienced, and how it’s shaped your identity as a gay man? 1:01:37 MSR: That’s a broad question. Well, the state offered a buy-out, when I was fifty years old. It was a new trend that was beginning across corporations and in state offices, and it was: let’s get rid of the more expensive, older—in case of academia, tenured—faculty and let’s hire new, allbut-dissertation graduate students. And pay them much less and not worry about tenure. So the state offered the buyout, and that was in October I think it was, and I didn’t debate it long, I was really so ready. I was so ready. I had some income from the therapy program practice, not much, 22 �and I had been doing my hobby, in addition to all this stuff, in my free time was antiquing. And I had developed a business in antiques on the side, and I had decent income from that. So I knew that I could make it somehow. And I just was tired of doing what I was doing. I took it, and it was an eventful year. That was in April. I was set up to, about mid-April, to teach my last classes. And about two, three weeks before classes were to end, my father died. And that was a really difficult thing because I’d always had, like any gay man or any gay woman, a difficult time in my relationship with my father. And he was the one… my mother wanted to disown me, she did, and he prevented it. Something I find very curious is, I knew that a primary support for my mother was our pastor out of the little country church that they went to. And my mother was a forceful person, and I know she was bending his ear about her son being queer, and wanting support for all of her hostilities. And, as I learned later, that man, that pastor, within about two years after my father died, came out. He had three daughters, young kids, and he came out. And I had so much anger towards him, because you know, son of a bitch for supporting her in her hatred, but good god he was a country minister, and lo, little did I know. I could look at the man and I could tell you, “Sorry, forgive my prejudices, but you’re queer.” [laughter] But I didn’t, I couldn’t, but that’s what happened. And he’s somewhere on the earth and last I heard he had a partner. Well, bless his heart, that’s good. And I know you have had your karma, don’t worry about it, you’ve had your karma already. But anyway, so my father died, and I went down for the funeral, that was in South Hill, you know, La Crosse, and the first night I was there I had a heart attack. The next morning, I had a heart attack. Talk about events. So my sister who was in the habit of calling the rescue squad regularly because for my father, because he had so many ailments towards the end of his life. So she called them [9-1-1], bless her heart. [Material removed from transcript at MSR’s request.] So there I was [MSR addition to transcript: at a little local hospital] and at a crucial moment they gave me a new drug that would break up the blockage, and I made it through that, and the next couple of days they sent me to Richmond for advanced care. I’ve not had another one, now I’ve had some cardiac procedures done since then just to keep the thing clean, but that was a hell of a lot happening. And within two weeks, I just coasted out that semester. I went back and maybe I taught a few classes, but I was not fit for anything. So anyway, sorry to end on that note, but that’s kind of what happened. And then I realized that, as I was recovering from that, and that took less time than one would think, my partner and I at the time had been going to Phoenix for professional reasons—for my professional reasons, I was going to psychotherapy conferences out there, but we also loved being out in Arizona. So in February, after that April ending of my career, I decided I went back to Phoenix and was enjoying having a good time and thinking. And then I was at a gay bed and breakfast and there was a friend of the owner there, he was realtor. So I made the mistake, opened my big mouth and said, “How’s housing cost here?” Well here we go, we were off to the races. You don’t ask a question like that to a realtor, so he showed me around town. So I call[ed] my partner then and I said, “I think we can be moving out here and I think I found a house.” [laughter] I was a tough guy to live with, you would get bombshells like 23 �that. Of course I had no intention of doing it without him, unless he was going to be joining me. But he had his CPA [Certified Public Accountant], and there was some small CPA firm he was working for here. And he was openly gay as well, and he was a little fearful. He was really a bright fellow, and he really needed a bigger pond to swim in professionally. So he was gung ho and it was very unnerving for him. Are we out of time? 1:09:46 GSR: No, it’s just the sirens that are apparently really loud. 1:09:52 MSR: That should have happened when I mentioned my heart attack. [laughter] 1:09:56 GSR: So that was late [19]90s, right? When you left? 1:09:59 MSR: ‘97 is when we moved to Phoenix. And I’ve been there now for 19 years. I think I’ve done the math. And we like it a lot. It’s hell, come July and August, it’s hell. And my partner and I— the current partner—my partner then and I split maybe seven years after we got there, hope no one’s adding this all up. And I met Bill, and we’ve been together for 15 years, married for five. 1:10:35 GSR: Is there anything else you want to make sure that we know about Southwest Virginia and gay life? 1:10:41 MSR: Oh, I’ll tell you one thing that I’ve not seen mentioned, maybe someone has, it wasn’t earth shattering, but it was a little fine of an attempt to create a more decent life for gays. And that was John and I and another couple, long living in Florida, created something called the Gay Supper Club, it was never very formal, you know. We would run a little ad in the Blue Ridge Lambda Press or something like that, I think, I don’t recall, but the whole point was we would contract with a restaurant to open up the restaurant just for gay people, and that was an effort to find restaurants that would open up for gay people. I’ll tell you, more times than not, it was minority owners—the Brazilians and Chinese and Japanese—that opened their doors. And they were good business people, they could say, “Hey, that’s a group we wouldn’t mind having spending money here.” So anyone, it was both men and women, and anyone who wanted to come. And I think it was a set fee, so that excludes a lot of folks who can’t afford that set fee. But it was like, I don’t know, a dinner for $15, and there were buffets. I’m not clear about the prices and everything, but as long as you made a little bit of income you could afford it. And that 24 �went well for a period of time; we didn’t have any of them that fizzled out. There would be twenty, thirty, forty or more people. It felt good to do that. 1:12:52 GSR: Was this in the ‘80s? ‘90s? 1:12:55 MSR: I’m going to say late ‘80s/early ‘90s. And you need to check that fact with some other folks who were involved. 1:13:05 GSR: We can check the Blue Ridge Lambda Press. 1:13:09 MSR: We started it, but after a while other people get on board and help, and I just can’t remember who that league of people were. But the community got it going which was good. 1:13:27 GSR: Anything else you want to share about this region? 1:13:35 MSR: [pause] I’ll call you later. [laughter] 1:13:37 GSR: Okay. 1:13:39 MSR: I’ll have another five hours’ worth. 1:13:41 GSR: Really? Well, it was so wonderful to have the opportunity to do this interview with you. 1:13:45 MSR: Okay, thank you very much, I appreciate it. 1:13:47 GSR: Thank you. [END] 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Myer S. Reed Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Myer S. Reed Interviewer: G.S. Rosenthal Date: 21 October 2019 Location: Roanoke Public Library Duration: 1:13:49 Transcription prepared by: Megan Reynolds and Kierra Burda Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 21 October 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Myer S. Reed; G.S. Rosenthal, Megan Reynolds; Kierra Burda Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ReedMyer https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5616/Preston_Nathaniel.MP3 f3ba36a7f9d457b06c07fb0eb50358db https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5616/Preston_Nathaniel.1.pdf 52cd7b0a178b2231bf97df8af50ca240 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Nathaniel Preston February 22, 2020 Interviewer: Sebastian Harlow Narrator: Nathaniel Preston Date: February 22, 2020 Location: Roanoke College, Fintel Library, 221 College Lane, Salem, Virginia Transcribed by: Cody Doherty, Cara Totten, Sebastian Harlow, and Kerensa McElrath Duration: 64:59 Index: 0:00 = Introduction and childhood in Martinsville, Virginia, and in Mount Airy, North Carolina (1980s) 1:55 = Church, Family, and Sports 3:04 = Meeting Step-Family; moving in with them in Henry County (late 1980s); childhood experiences of gender 5:39 = Relationship with Stepfather 7:42 = The churchs in Henry County 9:06 = Involvement in Christian youth group; the place of women in church roles 11:02 = High School experiences (late 1990s); anti-gay bullying 12:53 = Attending the University of Pittsburgh (early 2000s); coming out as bisexual 14:47 = Suicide attempt; Coming out as bisexual to parents; transferring to Averett University in Danville, Virginia 17:20 = Moving to Roanoke (c. 2007); interviewing for jobs as a gender non-conforming person 19:39 = Starting HRT; legal name change; facing employment discrimination as a transgender person 22:04 = Roanoke and Greensboro as queer migration settings for rural queer youth; getting involved with Roanoke Pride 23:43 = Involvement in Roanoke’s Pride in the Park festival; addition of The Roanoke Diversity Center (2013); changes in Roanoke’s gay scene 28:04 = The impact of heteronormative monogamous assimlation on queer culture 1 �30:24 = Raising Teenagers; Polyamorous family dynamics 32:57 = Characteristics of Martinsville, VA in the 1980s and 1990s; impact of NAFTA (1994) and regional deindustrialization 36:30 = Changes in Martinsville in the 2010s; differences between his childhood and his kids’ upbringings 39:50 =Diverse population in Roanoke; Local Colors Festival 42:02 = First experience at The Park nightclub (early 2000s); coming out to a friend the next day 44:40 = Straight people at The Park; changes in the gay scene 46:49 = Loss of history due to HIV/AIDS and gay assimilation into straight culture; identity representation in politics 49:50 = Representation of LGBTQ people in media; the politics of the “T” in LGBT 52:45 = Roanoke Diversity Center’s contributions to the community; involvement in Equality Virginia’s Transgender Advocacy Speakers Bureau; the importance of the Virginia Values Act (2020) 56:23 = Vice Mayor Joe Cobb; where Roanoke stands in terms of equality 58:42 = interest in coffee shop and bookstore scene; experiences at the Barnes and Noble store at Tanglewood Mall; accessing LGBT literature back in the day 1:02:22 = LGBT literature, including children’s and YA authors 00:00 SH: Hello, my name is Sebastian Harlow. I am in the Fintel Library study room with Nathaniel Preston. It is February 22nd, 2020. And so we’re just gonna ask you a couple questions, just to get to know you. And I think we’re gonna start off with your childhood, so if you just wanna talk to us about that…kinda talk about you! NP: Okay. I was born in Martinsville, Virginia at the Memorial Hospital there. My mother, at the time was a high school English teacher. I’m not entirely sure what my biological father did for work. I believe he worked for Dupont. But he died of cancer six days after I was born. So I spent a lot of time, especially when I was younger, and then definitely weekends and summers, in Mount Airy, North Carolina with my grandparents. My mother’s parents, specifically. My father’s parents and that side of the family weren’t super involved with me when I was younger. They hadn’t particularly liked my mother, so that kind of thing bled over—other than one uncle who used to come and spend time with me on a fairly regular basis. I was obsessed with Candyland as a child, y’know in that little kid way. Whenever my uncle would ask, “What color 2 �is this?” showing me the card for his turn, and I’d tell him, I thought it was just him checking to see if I knew my colors. It turns out he’s colorblind [laughter]. So that’s one of those little things that you appreciate even more when you’re older. 01:55 The church was a large portion of my childhood life, as it is when you’re growing up in the Bible Belt. My grandmother was on the usher board of a small AME church—African Methodist Episcopal, if you’re not familiar. My grandfather did not attend church regularly. Father’s Day, Christmas, and Easter were pretty much the only times he would go. He was a veteran from World War II and had been a coal miner and spent a lot of time, y’know, drinking beer and watching baseball games. He’s the one who taught me to hit a ball, throw a ball. I’m still a Braves fan because of him. But when you spend that much time in a church growing up, all those things kind of seep in. 03:04 When I was four, my mother met my step-father. They met… my mom was picking me up from preschool, my dad was picking up my now-stepbrother who’s closest to me in age. He’s only nine months older than me. And that’s where they met. They ran into each other a few times. My dad was taking a real estate course that my mother was taking as a favor to the friend who was teaching it so that there’d be enough people to actually run the class. My mom thought she was tutoring my dad. My dad had absolutely no problem with the course material, he just wanted to get to know her. And so, a few weeks before my sixth birthday, they got married and we moved into his home. Still in the Henry County area, just the other side of the county. His two brothers were preachers and his father was a preacher. All three, Pentecostal Holiness ministers. So, still, church. All the time. And I guess that’s when you start to get the feeling that there’s certain things you do and you don’t do. And as I got older, that’s when they started trying to “make a good young lady” out of me. This did not work. I hated dresses. I hated anything that was deemed traditionally “girly.” Except for cooking. My dad was also an excellent cook. I learned most of what I know about cooking from him and from my grandmother. They were both the kind of people who had zero clue of how to cook a small meal. It always had to be enough to feed an army, because you never know who might stop by, and you had to be able to offer them something. So, I still have trouble estimating how much food I need to feed people. It’s terrible. 05:39 My dad though. I remember they had made me be the flower girl in the wedding, and as soon as everything was done I was out of the dress and into a pair of shorts and, y’know, a t-shirt. But I had tugged on his suit jacket and I was like, “Does this mean you’re my dad now?” and he was like “Yes, I’ll be your dad now.” I always wanted to be like him growing up. He was way more extroverted than I could ever be. Never met a stranger, could walk into a building and almost talk to a brick wall. It was painful. There was no such thing as a short shopping trip with him, because he’d run into everyone and have to ask, “How’s your mom and them? Are you still working on that old car?” That sort of thing. If they were talking about cars, it was over. We were just stuck there. Classic cars were one of his big loves. And so I still appreciate those, too. My dad, I think, always knew that I wasn’t quite like my sisters and tried to treat me mostly like 3 �my brothers. I mean occasionally things would slip through. It would be like a “Come help me get the riding lawn mower lifted onto the back of the truck,” but then if I jumped off the back of the truck he’d be like, “Quit that, you’re gonna skin up your legs and no man’s gonna want you,” and I’m like, “um, I’m fine with this. It’s fine.” [laughter] So, just dumb little things. 07:42 But where I grew up, everyone was kind of known by what their church affiliation was. I mean you’d go to school and you know that this person went to First Baptist of Bassett, this person went to First Baptist of Stanleytown, all of these things. And you kind of knew even the history of how all of these churches sprouted up because there was a church probably every half mile through the main drags of town. It was absolutely ridiculous. Everyone wanted to ignore the hypocrisy behind a lot of it because sometimes it happened that like the junior minister ended up having an affair with the first minister’s wife. And so that’s when a new church would kind of spring up and things would go down, or it was fighting about money, things like that. The church I went to [their] youth group with, because the church that was closest to my house, pretty much right across the street and one house down, they didn’t really do a youth group, it was Sunday school. And you were expected to do Sunday school and Vacation Bible School. 09:06 But all of my friends were in a different youth group and so I went with them. And it was a Southern Baptist church, with all of the attendant issues that come out of that. Because the Baptists are very big on, y’know, “Women don’t get to be in positions of leadership,” drinking is definitely a “no,” dancing is supposed to be a “no,” there’s supposed to be very definite boundaries between genders and the way that things were done. But this church got away with a lot, mostly because the church had a lot of money and that was kind of the trump card in interactions with the Southern Baptist convention. Because… Bassett Furniture, if you’re familiar with them, which is based in the town that I’m from, the man who started it and who owned it had donated this money and decided to have the church named after his daughter. So you can’t really have a church named after a woman and not let women do things. But even then the nature of kind of the welcoming group…you know, we had a female youth minister who always told us, “Hey, if there’s anything you need, if there’s anything you need to talk about, I’m here, it’s going to be okay.” But figuring out that you were queer, still in the evidence of all that, wasn’t really something that you could talk about. 11:02 A friend of mine was outed. It was my junior year, his sophomore year. Someone that we thought we were friends with started telling everyone that he was gay. And the administration did absolutely nothing. We’d have to walk in groups through the school. If he needed to use the bathroom at school two people had to go with him. And most of his friends were, y’know, at least outwardly female. And so I’d say, “Okay, so, we’ll wait by the door. If we hear anything start to happen somebody’s going in and the other person’s going to try to get someone to stop this.” That was just the way things were. We were in marching band. Huge program for our school, went to grand nationals every year. That’s just what we did. And our rival high school was also big into marching band as well, and they had a guy in their color guard during marching 4 �band season, and the local cable access channel referred to him as a “flaggot” on, y’know, your normal news. Also a minor. They’re telling everybody his name and making fun of this kid who’s just—for all that we thought we were grown-ups as teenagers, he was a child, and yet he was this object of ridicule. 12:53 So I didn’t really come out to anyone until I went off to college. And even then, I didn’t know everything. I figured out that I liked men and women, but I’d also gotten about as far away from home as I could before doing that. So I spent my first three semesters of college at the University of Pittsburgh. So, big city. They filmed Queer as Folk there [laughter]. You know, when you’re figuring out that you’re queer, it’s a good place to be. Even then, I’d have to be drunk before I was willing to talk about it or even willing to kiss girls. But I did try to tell my best friend at the time, and she quit talking to me. She went away. No contact whatsoever. And I was, perhaps unsurprisingly, struggling with depression at the time. And so I’d call her, and I’d leave these voicemail messages in just absolute tears. And… nothing. Went home to visit, ran into her at Walmart—because, y’know, the center of small town life [laughter]. And she just looked past me like she’d never met me before. And that was hard. 14:47 When I was 19, I attempted suicide. If one of my roommates hadn’t come home, I probably would have died. They called my parents, and I managed to avoid being committed, but my parents drove from Martinsville up to Pittsburgh overnight to pick me up and bring me home. They got me into therapy, and I finally admitted to my mother—who then told my dad so I wouldn’t have to—that I was bisexual. And then I got a job and starting trying to put my life back together. Eventually went to—oddly enough, but it was conveniently located—Averett University, which at the time was Southern Baptist-affiliated. Oops. Well, we started a GSA [Gay-Straight Alliance] on campus, and that was kind of the straw that broke the camel’s back in between Averett’s relationship and the Southern Baptist Convention. It was already on thin ice. There’d been a lot of other things going on. Most specifically, because one of my favorite professors, wonderful man, was an expert in the field of biblical archaeology. So, well known. Dr. Laughlin. But he used to start off his Old Testament class, on the very first day, and he’d say “Raise your hand if the Bible says homosexuality is wrong.” And of course, we’re a Southern Baptist college in Southwest Virginia so hands go up, and he goes, “You’re all wrong, and anyone who’s told you otherwise is either ignorant or a liar.” [laughter] So, yeah. When the head of the religion department and the director of student affairs are your two faculty sponsors there’s not a lot that the college can do to you, but the Southern Baptists broke ties with us over all that. 17:20 And I thought that I was gonna go into education, and do that sort of thing. That didn’t work out for me. So eventually I ended up moving to Roanoke. So that was probably 2007. I’ve been here ever since, mostly working retail and food. I got my Master’s Degree in Business in a program based in Roanoke. But as I was figuring all that out and settling into queer life, I started realizing that I couldn’t keep ignoring my gender identity, which then of course makes things super 5 �interesting when you’re trying to apply for positions. Because, y’know, you’ve got student loans to pay off, you’ve got bills to pay, you’ve gotta make rent, and all these things, and you’re trying to get a job in a field that none of your work experience is in. And then you’re gender nonconforming. And it’s rough. I had an MBA, my track record in jobs was great, but I showed up for an interview with… it was a clothing store. I won’t name them because other people’s experience may not be the experience that I had with them. But I’m in a vest, a button-down, and a tie. I look good. But I introduced myself and I could just see the look on the interviewer’s face, the “what on Earth have I gotten into?” kind of look. Obviously, I ended up not getting that job, even though my resume was impressive and she admitted it. It’s still that “Mm, I don’t think this is going to work for the business that we’re in.” Alright. Sure. 19:39 The years pass. I get another job, closer to home, because for a while I was commuting from Roanoke to Christiansburg every day. And at this point I’ve had therapy. I’m finally out as a trans man. I’ve started HRT [hormone replacement therapy]. I’ve gotten my legal name change. I go in for an interview. Panel interview, everyone’s super impressed with me, they offer me the job. I have to go through the background check and there’s no option to give them any other previous names. But then of course the Social [Security number] matches and they find this, and then I get a call and it’s like, “We’ve decided to go in a different direction.” Great. And this is after they’ve asked me to put in my notice at my other job. And so suddenly, instead of making more money than I’ve ever made in my life, I don’t have a job. Luckily I find something pretty quickly. It’s a pay cut, but the schedule’s better than what I’d been working before. And it’s really nice, for once, to work with a group of people who’ve only ever known me as Nathaniel. It’s a really nice change. Eventually I get a job working in my field, just, y’know, eight years longer than I expected it was going to take. But at least I’m working for a company now that offers transgender-related healthcare in its insurance, and has a transition policy, and all these things. I know I’m one of the lucky ones. There are a lot of people I know that aren’t so lucky. 21:49 SH: So, you’ve kind of told us about some of the trans issues and the obstacles you face. Do you foresee some of those changing over the years? Especially in Roanoke? 22:04 NP: Roanoke has always been an interesting city. When I was growing up, you know, as the queer kids were finding each other, and people were leaving, it was pretty much, they either moved north to Roanoke or south to Greensboro. You know, both places that had gay bars and gay clubs, and it was a little bit easier to blend in, but then you weren’t too far away from home. So you could still go back if you needed to. I didn’t intend to stay in Roanoke necessarily, it just kind of happened. My soon-to-be ex-wife, her family was in Franklin County, and so we talked about moving, but our nephews and niece were born and she didn’t want to be that far away from them when they were growing up. We got involved with Roanoke Pride, and were both on the board of that for several years. I ran the festival. Roanoke is technically the longest continuallyrunning pride festival in the state of Virginia, which surprises a lot of people. Because they’re all like, you’d think like Hampton Roads or Richmond would’ve gotten there first, and I know they 6 �all started at similar times, but Richmond’s Pride fell off for a while, same thing out in Hampton Roads. 23:37 SH: So, what kind of activities do you partake in during Roanoke Pride over the years? 23:43 NP: There’s always been the festival. When it started, back in the [19]80s, it was really just kind of a potluck picnic. And then, it grew and it moved around. It’s been in Wasena Park, it’s been in Highland Park, it’s been in Elmwood. We had the one year that it was in River’s Edge Park. So there’s always been kind of an element of just coming out and hanging out. You know, food vendors, drag shows. Roanoke used to have a huge and vibrant drag history, and it waned and now I think it’s kind of growing again. Now there are multiple drag brunches, and things. At one point there were six different pageants that were going on. It’s not a big enough city for six national title holders. So those were some of the things that we did, kind of at the peak. The Roanoke Diversity Center, when it got started, would do their film festival and we’d have some kickoff parties leading up into the festival itself. We’ve done parades, but they’re kind of a nightmare in terms of Roanoke City and just dealing with the city, getting the permits. You have to try and keep it close enough to the park where the festival is happening, which is unfortunately right on top of multiple major thoroughfares in the city. So getting the permissions to shut that off, and then the cost involved in having off-duty police officers man the parade route, it makes it difficult. We did, the last two years that I was involved with the festival, we developed a relationship with the city and kind of as an in-kind sponsor, they waived the fee of renting the park, and helped provide some of the security coverage that we needed, because there are always protestors. And as much as most conservatives are like, “It’s nobody’s business!” Well, if it’s not your business, why do you care? But the reason we kind of kept doing it, and why we still go even though I’m not doing it anymore, it’s remembering the first pride that I went to, and it’s like hey, there are a few thousand people here who are just like me. Especially in Southwest Virginia. When you’re worried that it’s you and a handful of friends, that’s the importance of Pride. Even now, where we have just The Park, the Backstreet [Cafe] doesn’t really exist as it was any longer, and it wasn’t really a gay bar for years before it was finally bought out. And the same thing is happening in cities across the country. Even the Village [in New York City] isn’t as gay as it used to be. As we gain mainstream acceptance in some ways, we lose the core of community that kind of was the hallmark of the queer community for so long. 27:58 SH: Do you think that there’s a way for us to come back to those places? 28:04 NP: I think that we’d have to stop trying to assimilate so much. It’s like, even as corporate sponsors enable you to make your pride festivals bigger and better and lets you reach more people, and have even bigger name entertainers, there’s also an element of selling out involved in that. And so, where we come from at Stonewall, to the “We’re just like you, we want the exact same things,” heteronormative monogamous assimilation is hurting so much. Black culture, 7 �queer culture, and the intersection of the two was responsible for so much of fashion, music, dance, all sorts of things and we lose that, and it’s kind of sad. I’m a transgender, pansexual, polyamorous person, but even then, you know, we also live a fairly normal life. My current partner and my metamour, we live together, we’re raising teenagers, you know, it’s like at the same time, yes, we do all still want the same kinds of things. Some of us do. But we’re not a monolith. I know people who absolutely don’t ever want children. And they’re still, you know, humans. As a culture, we like putting people in these little boxes. And… it’s not that easy. 30:22 SH: So, you said you’re raising a teenager… 30:24 NP: Yes, we have two teenagers. My wife, my nesting partner and her husband, my metamour, and then her previous husband, they had one son who’s 26, and so everyone’s like, “Wait, you’re how old, and you have a 26 year old?” And I’m like, one, my wife’s older than me, and my contribution to his parenting at this point is, you know, trying to remind him that work will always be there, life might not be. And that’s coming from experience. And then also trying to get him to quit drinking shitty beer. [laughter] And our two younger kids, our daughter is a senior. She should figure out where she wants to go to college. She’s active in her high school’s Gay Straight Alliance. She’s got trans and gender non-conforming friends, and she always tries to make sure to introduce her parents to their parents and make sure that we meet the friends who might need help the most. And then our youngest is 15, he’s a sophomore. And they’re both, they’re a joy. Empathetic, and they have a strong sense of right and wrong. And watching them form their own opinions on politics and things is fun, because politics in this country is a giant dumpster fire right now. And seeing them, and knowing that they understand that “Hey, this isn’t the way things are supposed to be,” and writing opinion papers with zero prompting from us. They’re like “Nope, this is what’s right,” and they go with it. I think the kids are alright. I have hope. 32:42 SH: Well, that’s good. So, you’re raising teenagers in Roanoke. Do you think it would have been different had you raised them in Martinsville with the childhood area that you were in? 32:57 NP: Oh, god no. I would never raise children there. [laughter] I know people that I went to high school with who are raising children there. And they’re having to fight some of the same battles that we had to fight when we were kids there. It’s still a profoundly not diverse place. I mean, things have improved. They had a gay homecoming king a few years ago, and that never would have happened when we were in high school. When I was in high school, the newspapers ran editorials about stripping the homecoming queen of her title because she had a tongue piercing. Really? So, to have an openly gay homecoming king, alright, we’ve made some progress. It’s still, having out gay teachers is not really a thing. Like, it’s always been kind of an open secret. People know, but you don’t really talk about it. It’s still that same sort of stigma. My mother raised my younger cousin, who’s now 19 and she’s a student at [Virginia] Tech, but when she 8 �was little, like in the after-school program there, one of the directors of the program was a lesbian, and people kept talking about whether or not she was able, like, capable of doing that job. It’s like, yeah, it’s not contagious. But yeah, this is the same place where it comes out that the sheriff’s department has been confiscating drugs and then selling them themselves, or using them. Whole big thing. Then the next sheriff election comes around, the incumbent sheriff steps down. Someone who’s not from there runs against the previous sheriff’s right-hand man. And you’d think, obvious police corruption… But who wins the election? The corruption they’re comfortable with, not the outsider. It’s just, it’s always going to be that kind of place. And granted, it had a huge manufacturing background. That’s what it was, furniture manufacturing. And you had three, you had Bassett, you had Stanley, and you had Hooker furniture. Then you had Sara Lee products, DuPont was there. All of these things. And then, NAFTA happened, and the jobs left, and a lot of people left with it, but then a lot of other people stayed. And the ones who stayed are the ones who like change the least, so, change happens slowly. 36:30 But, as people, and I hate to say it, die off, it might get better. And some more jobs are moving in down there. They did actually hold a Pride festival there last year, for the very first time. Someone had started talking about it, probably eight years ago, and it took that long for it to actually happen. There have been drag shows at The Dutch Inn, which is like the big hotel in town that also had a bar, so that’s where people used to go. And so, hey, they were doing drag shows, like twice a month, on Sundays. And it was the talk of the town, and how scandalous it was. So, I would not want to raise children there, for a variety of reasons. There’s just not enough for them to do. Cultural opportunities are few and far between. Right now, our kids don’t drive, they’re not really interested in it. It’s not a huge thing to get them where they want to go, either. Down there, my parents made me get my license. They’re like, “no, we can’t just keep driving you everywhere.” And in their defense, it was kind of true. I resented it at the time, because one of my close friends had died in a car accident, and I was with her, and another friend of ours when it happened. And so, consequently, understandably not at all interested in getting behind the wheel of a car. And, you know, tough love. And it’s a good thing, that they made me, because otherwise I might never have learned, and I really needed to. But, we can afford to let them do things on their own time. And even then, one of us is almost always home to make them dinner, and things like that. And, you know, my parents, my mom worked and depending on, she moved from being a teacher to being an administrator, and as she’s working, sometimes she was at a school as much as an hour away, and having to make that commute. And then, my dad did a lot of volunteer work. He had to take a disability retirement from DuPont. But, he was really active with the Free Masons, and with the Shriners, and doing all of those things, so he had meetings. I had to learn to do things like cook and things, because, nobody’s delivering pizza out in the sticks. 39:38 SH: So, I do have a question about, when you were talking about the lack of change that people were susceptible to in Martinsville, do you think that’s different here in Roanoke? 39:50 9 �NP: I think that Roanoke has a lot more diverse population in a lot of ways. I mean, Local Colors is kind of an example of that. When I was growing up, you had black kids, you had white kids, you had a few, and this is gonna sound terrible when I say it but it was the mentality [at the time], Mexican kids. Whether they were from Mexico or Central America, or anywhere else, they were “Mexicans” as far as everyone else was concerned. Like, the Asian population of our high school was a kid who was a quarter Korean. You weren’t running into different ideas. Everyone, almost everyone, was going to a Baptist church, we had like three Catholic kids. We had no Jewish population. It was, everyone was pretty much the same. Roanoke has the benefit of having a lot more cultures bumping into each other. And there is still very strong religious sentiment here, but there’s also more business. The airport helps; now, we’ve got Amtrak. There’s more travel in and out the city. These businesses are doing business with people around the world, and it’s harder to stand against change when you’re encountering new things all the time. 41:33 SH: Yeah. I actually really like that you mentioned that because I kind of want to talk to you about the Park and kind of the influx and the change that it’s undergone. It’s primarily known as the gay club, but there’s so much more there now. And I kind of wanted to ask what your experience was with the Park, like your first experience, or your favorite one. 42:02 NP: I guess, because I was still kind of young… I was 17 when I graduated from high school. So I didn’t really get to experience the Park until I guess I’d come home for Christmas break my freshman year of college. An old friend of mine from our rival high school—but we’d gotten along really well ever since we first met because we were black queer kids—and of course, not everyone knew that and so everyone was like, “Oh, you’re such a cute couple!” No, no, we’re really not, but sure. He and I came up to Roanoke and we went to the Park on New Year’s Eve. Came home, and we ended up back in Roanoke the very next day with a friend of ours because the mall in Martinsville, such as it is, was awful even then, and now it’s only gotten worse. So, we came up to Roanoke to shop with a friend of ours, who, you know, the three of us had always spent a lot of time together. But he was home, he had just finished basic training, and so we were all going to hang out. And we’re trying really hard to figure out how to tell him that we’re queer, because we hadn’t told him. We’re like, alright, we’re going to do it, we’re going to tell him, now’s the time. We were putting it off all day. And at one point he looks at my friend and he’s like, “Dude, is that glitter on your face?” And we’re like, “Oh, don’t know where that came from!” We’re trying to play it off like we hadn’t been covered in body glitter the night before. And so we had to sit him down in the café at the Barnes and Noble at Tanglewood [Mall] and come out to him. That’s kind of the most memorable thing, the night at the Park was whatever, you know, that was back before they had a liquor license so it was just beer and wine coolers. But, still, the chance to wear glitter and drink, even though we really weren’t supposed to be, and smoke cigarettes, and be around mostly gay people, it was great. 44:40 10 �Even then coming to the Park after I moved to Roanoke and y’know had friends, like we’d go and there was always random straight guys there. Straight women are all like “Yes, I wanna dance with the gay guys” and it’s fine, and then you have the guys who are trying to date these women who are like “Why am I here?” like obviously uncomfortable, and then trying to dance with women but not realizing hey, most of the women here have zero interest in you. The bar scene has never really been my scene but it was still really important for us to have that opportunity. And over the years things have changed and now they’ve got a liquor license and they serve more food and things. But still going to The Park on Pride weekend is like old home week… you see all of these people that you might not have seen in years. People who are in town just to go to Pride again and it’s still in a lot of ways a home for the Roanoke gay community. I mean the Roanoke Diversity Center does a lot of great work, and it’s particularly great for people who can’t be around alcohol consumption and things like that, and for those who are past the point of loud music being what they want to do. And so I’m glad the RDC got off the ground when it did, because it is a great resource for information and for community outside of the bars. 46:49 I think we are losing some of the history. Especially... The bars were the gathering places at especially at the height of the AIDS crisis. There would be the people that would be there and suddenly they weren’t there anymore and that was kind of... you’re marking time, and that is sad. It’s… even in the black community, your sororities and fraternities, the divine nine, are the staples of the Black college experience but even they are losing numbers. So it’s one of those, like, as times change and everyone becomes more integrated you lose something important historically. Or it’s still there, but it’s different and people don’t understand why you’re sad about it being gone. And it’s like “Well, it’s great now, we can go to whatever club or bar we want to.” Well yes, we can, but it’s still not the same. The idea that after Obama that we’re in a post-racist country, it’s like “ehhh, no, it’s not quite,” but people can’t see past the “Well, we had a black president,” and they’re like, “well, if Buttigieg gets elected then we’ll have a gay president and it will fix things.” It’s like, it’s not going to fix things. He is—whatever way you feel about his policy positions—he’s still like the most comfortable version of gay that a lot of people are ever going to be. Then their like, “okay, he’s a Christian white guy, he’s married, he was a military vet,” it’s like this is the most palatable gay. And that leaves behind all of us who are not palatable gay. 49:34 SH: Do you think that’s a step forward or a step backward for getting people to change and kind of expand on the idea beyond… I would almost say stereotypical, kind of like a formula or mold? 49:50 NP: In some ways I would say a kind of representation or whatnot moves us like baby steps forward. My mother has always loved me but has had trouble kind of assimilating my identity first as bisexual and now as a trans man. But Modern Family helped her kind of get there, with dealing with “Okay, my kid is queer and married. Alright, I can work with this.” Laverne Cox— bless her soul—in Orange Is the New Black helped my mom recognize, “Okay, the transgender community is a thing.” So, it helps and we can’t discount the help, but it’s still not getting us 11 �completely there. And in some ways, it’s not always helpful. The idea, the “wrong body” narrative that gets people to kind of understand the trans identity in some ways, it’s super uncomfortable. For some people, yes, it’s their truth, but it’s not everyone’s truth and it’s really unhelpful for non-binary or agender or genderfluid folks. Really, really not helpful for them. But you have to weigh the good that it’s doing versus the harm that’s gonna come. There are people who really felt like we should have dropped the trans identity from getting employment protections passed back in the late [19]90s, early 2000s. “If we drop the T, we can get there, and once we’re there we can add that back in and try to move the line a little further.” But when you do things like that, all you do is put your more marginalized, your more vulnerable people, further behind. 52:18 SH: I know you mentioned the Roanoke Diversity Center a little bit ago, and kind of the separation from the bar scene. Do you think that there could be some sort of program or outreach at the Diversity Center that could help in Roanoke with the issues that you were talking about of having employment issues and representation? Do you think there could be a push or something? 52:45 NP: They’ve done some things like that, historically. They had their own speakers bureau for a while that would go and kind of talk to businesses, talk to school systems, and things like that. And I pinched in for them a few times they were looking for more people of color who were part of the queer community. But because they are a very small non-profit, a lot of their money comes from grants or comes from donations or fundraisers they can do, and they are kinda spread a little thin. And they do have support groups and things like that in their center, and they try to do some outreach through some of their grant money, but it’s hard for them to get funding. And right now I’m part of Equality Virginia’s Transgender Advocacy Speakers Bureau. And because EV is a statewide organization, and they get some of that sweet, sweet northern Virginia money, that kind of helps them have a little bit of reach. And I wish some of that could come into Roanoke so that we could get a little further. But they are trying at least to talk to the marginalized groups more, making sure that HIV-positive people have support that they need. They work with the Council for Community Services on that, making sure that the multiple transgender umbrella support groups have a place. My wife runs a bisexual and pansexual and all middle sexuality support group there. They’re doing good work. They sponsor at least one of the local drag bingos and try to do things out in the community like that to try and raise awareness of the issues. But in Roanoke, a lot of the issues come down to unemployment and underemployment, housing protections, things like that. So, they spend a lot of time trying to talk to our local legislators about things like that so they’re encouraged to help pass those things. In this area, there’s a lot of conservatives that sort of not getting there. Bless [Delegate] Sam Rasoul from, y’know, the city, cause he’s kind of our progressive voice. And Senator Edwards. Because we don’t have a lot of that from out here. I think if we can finish getting the Virginia Values Act passed, that’s going to do a lot for people around here. Because the governor says he’ll sign it. And then we’ll be the first state in the South with housing and unemployment protections for LGBT folks. And y’know back in 2006 when they passed the constitutional amendment for the state constitution to outlaw gay marriage, I didn’t think we’d ever get here. There’s hope. 56:10 12 �SH: Do you think if we got backing from the city of Roanoke, that would help a lot? Or do you think it would still kind of keep us where we’re at? 56:23 NP: I think it would help. I know that Joe Cobb being Vice Mayor is helping. He’s a prominent voice, he’s well known and well liked in pretty much every circle. I think some funding for that would be great, but then there’s also... We’ve got a lot of problems in the city in terms of economics, and in some ways if we’re making sure that all of our under-income folks can eat and have housing, that’s going to help the LGBT community, too. Several of the city schools have free breakfast and lunch for all their students, because we’re not able to take care of children, but I think that passing more progressive policies will bring in more jobs. As the statement always says, equality means business. The company I work for, that’s one of their things. Making sure to be involved and to have policies. They did the [Human Rights Campaign’s] Corporate Equality Index survey for the first time last year and got a 90, which in terms of the auto parts business is pretty much as good as you’re going to get, because the other 10% comes from things like your supply chain and there’s just not a lot of queer people making auto parts. Yet. Hopefully we’ll get there. 58:20 SH: Rainbow cars! [laughter] 58:23 NP: That chameleon car paint was super popular for a while in the [19]90s. It could make a comeback. 58:28 SH: So, I guess just a couple more questions because I don’t want to take up too much of your time. You did talk about… the bar scene wasn’t really your scene. What would you call your scene? 58:42 NP: Like the coffee shop, bookstore kind of thing. I don’t like loud noises, other than like concerts, where you’re completely surrounded by uniform sound. I guess it’s an anxiety thing. I don’t like being in loud places where I can’t always see who’s around me. And we don’t really have a gay bookstore. I wish we did. That’s always been like a side dream. 59:15 SH: I thought it was the Tanglewood Barnes and Noble… 59:17 NP: I mean, the Tanglewood Barnes and Noble used to be even more gay. When I worked there many years ago, about a third of the staff was queer of some variety. And that’s back when there were like almost sixty employees working in that store, so there was a lot. [laughter] And for a while, I was maintaining the LGBT section, like shortlisting books and making sure that we had the stuff that people were looking for. But then, in the grand tradition of corporate retail, they were like “Well, we’re gonna cut staffing because that will save us money,” as opposed to 13 �having people there to make sure everything was where it was supposed to be, and that you can have books that people were looking for. Even a decent portion of management staff there at the time was queer. So yes, that used to be it. But I’ve spent some time in cities like Philadelphia, or even if you’re in Richmond, like Diversity Thrift. So you have the [LGBT] community center, and the shop, there’s a little cafe where people can spend time. Even in daylight hours, a place to gather that doesn’t necessarily revolve around alcohol, and is, therefore, more accessible for the youth, too. I would have given a lot of money as a queer kid to see a queer adult that wasn’t having to hide who they were. And now, bless the internet. There’s an idea that, yes, Neil Patrick Harris with his husband and his adorable children are living the dream. We’re still getting there with our trans role models, but there’s still community there. But there’s a lot to be said for getting together and going into a space where there are stories [about people] like you easily accessible, and you don't have to order them. Your magazines are there and the covers easily visible, unlike Curve and The Advocate and Out that used to come in black poly mailers. But now at least the Advocate comes in a clear mailer. But you couldn’t even voluntarily opt out of the packaging at one point. It was always, it has to come in the opaque mailer so no one knows what you’re getting, this sense of shame. 1:02:22 It would be nice if we had something like that. Having the library is nice now but it could also use some more donations, so it’s not the same dozen lesbian mysteries and things like that. Copies of the Gay Kama Sutra, three copies of And the Band Played On, that sort of thing. Because there’s more out there and there’s even more out there for young adults, even for middle grade readers. I loved the Bunnicula books when I was growing up—the Vampire bunny who would suck your vegetables dry. But it wasn’t until I was an adult that I found out that James Howe who had written those books that I loved so much was gay. And then he wrote some books that have a gay middle school protagonist whose best friend is running for student council, and “Hey, these are kids, just like us, who are going through their lives.” David Levithan is there, and his books are somewhat fantastical because these kids are queer and they’re living in small towns in the middle of America but it’s an absolute non-issue. And you’re like, this is utopia and it’s absolutely unrealistic but I love it, because it gives me the chance to turn my brain off and just be like, “Hey there’s someone in this story who’s like me,” as opposed to the dead lesbian trope. It’s like yes, you can show these women having a relationship together, but one of them has to die and/or go evil. [laughter] That’s the way things used to be. It’s like you saw Willow and Tara have their heartfelt reunion, and then the morning after they reconcile, “oh! Tara’s dead now.” It’s like, why? Even the movies used to do the same sorts of things, it’s like, “Alright, you can show this but here’s the caveat.” 1:04:43 SH: Well thank you so much for your time. I actually really enjoyed this. It was really nice meeting you and hearing about Martinsville, because I don’t get to hear a whole lot about that. So, this is Sebastian Harlow signing off. [END] 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Nathaniel Preston Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Nathaniel Preston Interviewer: Sebastian Harlow Interviewee: Nathaniel Preston Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College, Salem, Virginia Date: 22 February 2020 Total Duration: 64:59 Transcription prepared by: Cody Doherty, Cara Totten, Sebastian Harlow, and Kerensa McElrath Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 February 2020 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PrestonNathaniel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nathaniel Preston, Cody Doherty, Cara Totten, Sebastian Harlow, Kerensa McElrath. https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5617/Cobb_Joe-1.MP3 9fa09a1818c0aa65744b248d9bbfd69a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5617/Cobb_Joe-2.MP3 6ce5e070f75a0bc0bdd58899d927b5dc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5617/Cobb_Joe-3.MP3 a9897a830e4521a16e96f77d0249ec48 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5617/Cobb_Joe-4.MP3 0161234b87cbd68909e8e21a53a3e31e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5617/Cobb_Joe.pdf f740cd780bff3b19a8c82a70c312ea8a PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Joe Cobb – in four parts February 21, 2020 Interviewer: Eve Allen Interviewee: Joe Cobb Date: February 21, 2020 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College, Salem, Virginia Transcribed by: Miranda Lawhorn, Buck Parrott, and Eve Allen Duration: 82:58 Part One (24:12): 0:00 = Early life in Wichita, Kansas (1962- 1970s) 3:20 = puberty and sexual awakening (1970s) 10:36 = Life in the United Methodist Church and College at Southwest College (early 1980s) 13:06 = Call to seminary school at Perkins School of Theology in Dallas, Texas (1983) 15:15 = hiding sexuality in seminary school (mid-1980s); meeting wife there; marriage (1985) 19:36 = work life and abroad experience in England (mid- to late-1980s); returning to Kansas 23:09 = Wife’s first pregnancy and miscarriage (late 1980s) Part Two (9:50): 0:00 = A former sexual partner makes contact (early 1990s) 5:37 = Having children (1993); moving to Wichita (1995); periodic contact with the former partner Part Three (39:06): 0:00 = Having an affair; the consequences and realizations that came along with it (1996) 4:39 = speaking to therapist; telling the truth to wife about the affair and conflicting sexuality (1997-1998) 12:42 = coming to terms and accepting his homosexuality; coming out to his parents and family (1998) 16:35 =Separation with wife and its effect on family life and children (1998) 20:01 =Explaining homosexuality to his kids; wife and kids move to Blacksburg, Virginia (1999) 23:01= fears associated with coming out to family/ fear of rejection and being cut off 25:00 = living in Wichita without family (1999-2001); retiring as a United Methodist clergy and moving briefly to Atlanta (2001) 30:00 = events of September 11th, 2001; Backstreet Café shooting vigil; meeting future husband at Pride event (2001) 34:47: Life in Roanoke (c. 2001-2017), including work as pastor of Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge   1   �Part Four (9:50): 0:00 = Grassroots political campaign for Roanoke City Council (2017-2018) 3:00 = Running for office as an openly gay man 4:54 = Thoughts on the relationship between LGBTQ communities and the police 8:27 = Thoughts on public service and role that LGBTQ people can play Part One (24:12) 0:00 EA: My name is Eve Allen. I am interviewing Joe Cobb on the 21st of February at 2:06 pm in Room 60 on the ground floor of Fintel Library for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project. Alright, so, welcome. Just kind of to start off, do you want to give us an idea of kind of your early life? What was it like growing up? 0:27 JC: Ah… well, I grew up in Wichita, Kansas, which is kind of right in the heart of the United States. I was one of four children. My parents were not able to have biological children so they adopted each of us and so all four of us came from different birth families. My parents were great. They created a household full of love where all of us knew we were loved, knew we were chosen. We were very special to them. They made a point of telling us from as early as we could understand that we were adopted. Not to say that in a negative way, but just to say that we were special, we chose you. All of our baby books reflected that. So, I love that from the beginning, our adoptions were not something that were secret, or closeted, or hidden; we knew from the beginning, and as we grew, they would continue to tell us that story and were always very open with us so that if we ever reached a point in our young adult or adult lives that we wanted to seek out our birth families or learn more about our histories, we could do that. My parents encouraged me and my siblings to find things that were   2   �of interest to us. They didn’t want us to conform to how they thought we should grow up but to give us the space to discover what we were good at, what we loved, what inspired us. So for me, from an early age, I loved to sing. Singing was really important to me. We lived out in the country so when the weather was great, we were always outside, during the day and evening after school especially. Got along particularly well, considering there were six of us in the house. I was a good student. I loved school. I loved history, loved music, as I said, loved reading, loved to write and kind of carried those things through my adolescence and into high school where I really continued to explore my singing. 3:13 EA: So for you… what year were you born first of all? 3:17 JC: I was born in 1962. 3:20 EA: 1962, okay. So high school would start about when for you? 3:23 JC: High school started for me in 1976. We had elementary, junior high, and high school and our junior high was three years and then high school was three years. 3:34 EA: So, in high school, a lot of us start to figure out, you know, who we are and where we are going. For you, what was that process like? 3:43 JC: Well, that process actually started out for me much earlier. It typically, I think, it happens when our bodies change through adolescence and puberty. But there was a particular memory that I had when I was about ten years old and I remember going with my family to Dallas, Texas to see my uncle, my dad’s brother, in a play. He was in a play. I don’t remember the name of it but his co-star was Judy Carne who was very famous on the show “Laugh In,” which was well before your time, but it was a great comedy show, and my uncle Rhea had a roommate who was   3   �also cast in the play and when our family went to go and visit my uncle and his roommate, I just remember thinking what a beautiful man his roommate was and what was most striking to me about him were his beautiful feet. Don’t know why, I just thought those were the most beautiful feet that I’ve ever seen in my life. Ten years old! And I wanted to be close to him, I wanted to sit close to him but my two sisters got in before me and I have this wonderful picture that my grandma took from the trip and it shows one sister on one knee, another sister on another knee, and I’m right up next, as close as I could get. That was my earliest awareness of recognizing beauty in a human being and I guess what didn’t at the time strike me as anything other than normal was that it was a man and the particular feature, that you know, his feet, were just significant to me in recognizing that I could see beauty, not only in another human being but also in a man. So that was probably my earliest awareness of natural beauty, sexual understanding, and that sort of thing. 6:07 EA: So, going through with your family and going through those years, were you able to explore that more openly within your family? Did you have to hide more? What was that, growing up for you? 6:18 JC: I didn't have the capacity to explore it openly. I did it very secretly, kind of in the treasure house of my own heart. After that experience and that memory, I recall in junior high… I was awkward in athletics. I didn't like P.E. or gym. I wasn't naturally athletic so I always struggled to feel at home in those kinds of classes and particularly in the locker room when, you know, you’re completely vulnerable and so I didn't feel particularly striking. But I began to notice how all the boys were just developing at different stages and levels and some who were my age that appeared to be grown men and I had no hair on my body [laughter]. So that kind of experience of trying to figure that out and make sense of it. I remember one night when I was concerned that I didn't have any hair and then suddenly like a Who in Whoville in Dr. Seuss, one hair popped up [laughter] and I remember asking my dad to come in and explain to me what this meant. What’s happening to me? And he was great, he’s always very patient and kind and we talked about it and it was reassuring to me that I was—this was my way of developing physically and it was different from other guys. 8:09 EA: So, kind of moving from that to life as an adult. So what—where did you wind up going into your life? I know you’re in politics now but it looks like you've done a lot.   4   �8:25 JC: Well, you know, just to add a little bit to that developmental experience, from that experience in junior high, I really began to wrestle with my sexual orientation. I knew I was different, that I felt different, that I felt unique but I didn't have really anybody to talk with about that, so I think because I internalized it and didn’t feel like there was a healthy climate for me to talk to anyone about the risk of that. That internalizing I think began to develop a little bit of a feeling of shame within me because I had to hide it. But once I got into… and in high school, I didn’t express attraction towards boys or young men. When I went to prom, I went out, you know, I asked a girl out but I didn’t really date anyone seriously. The first time I dated a girl seriously was probably in college and she was more of a friend and I discovered that, you know, that it just felt awkward trying to navigate that while I was also sexually active, starting in high school, with guys. So that tension became very real in me but it remained hidden. When I was in my first year of college, I was trying to discern what vocational path my life would take and was working part time in a church as a youth minister and I had grown up in the church. I was very comfortable in the church. 10:36 EA: Which denomination? 10:37 JC: United Methodist. 10:38 EA: United Methodist, okay. Thank you. 10:42 JC: And, always felt surrounded by love. I did not grow up in a fundamentalist or evangelical religious climate, it was… it was very much a love centered climate… the whole teaching of unconditional love. But again, we rarely had conversations back then about human sexuality or the gift of sexuality within the religious context, so I didn't have the framework in which to talk about that. So, in college, working at this church, I experienced a call into ministry and that call for me came during a church meeting when I was seated in the back of the sanctuary of this small, white frame, old, rural church called Grandview United Methodist Church near Winfield, Kansas, just outside of where I was going to school at Southwestern College. And in the moment, I was present but absent. It was almost like I was outside of my body. I was so in my body that I felt outside and I had this powerful sensation in my heart of clarity and along with   5   �that clarity, a voice that said I want you to be a pastor. And I was so compelled by that that I went back to my college, talked to my advisor who recommended that I change advisors just so that I could focus more on the path of philosophy and religion and kind of made a beeline for finishing college so I could go to seminary and I finished college in three years. I did independent studies, took classes during the summer, all of that designed to get me on a trajectory to go to seminary and to become an ordained clergy. 12:57 EA: So that would be—you would have graduated about when? 13:04 JC: I graduated from college in 1983. 13:06 EA: 1983, okay. So you felt this really big call and you’re going into seminary, so what was the process of choosing a seminary to go to? What was that like for you? 13:21 JC: I looked at a couple different seminaries. I mainly wanted to go where I could get the best seminary education. Because I had never been very far from home, it was a big step for me. I was the kind of kid that loved being at home. I loved hanging out with my parents. When I—the first day that my parents took me to school and moved me into the dorm, I just kept delaying, delaying, delaying because I didn’t want them to leave and then finally my mom, who was about 5’4, got out of the backseat, opened my door. I was in the passenger seat next to my dad and she said “Joe, it’s time to go.” [laughter] That was her power move and I went. So for me to have that kind of propelled motion to finish college early and go to seminary was really extraordinary. It reminded me that I have this kind of resilience and ability to risk within me. So I looked at several seminaries and the one I chose and was accepted to was Perkins School of Theology in Dallas, Texas, which was about six hours from where I lived and I remember part of the reason I chose it was because I had relatives who lived in the Dallas/Fort Worth area so I knew that I would have some family support close by if I needed to draw on that. And I loaded up my 1970 pea-green Toyota Corolla with all of my stuff and I drove straight through to Dallas and began my seminary education. Perkins is part of Southern Methodist University so I began that in the fall of 1983. 15:15   6   �EA: So in this calling and doing all of this, how did you match your faith to your sexuality? 15:25 JC: Great question. I totally hid it. Years later, I shared—I had three roommates, we had kind of a quad section of one of the dorms and one of my roommates was really good at asking me very directed questions and one day he asked me very pointedly, “So are you going to seminary to run away from your sexuality?” And I apparently said yes. I did not remember this but he had a very clear memory of that and it makes sense to me. I was looking for a way to not have to wrestle with the thing that I really needed to wrestle with. And so I was so focused on my studies and becoming ordained that I set that aside, I compartmentalized it. I just put it over here, didn’t get rid of it but put it over here knowing that it was still very much an integral part of me. So in my first year—actually my second year of seminary… we lived in a co-ed dorm and I had a roommate who was gay, he didn't officially come out to me but I pretty much knew he was and we didn’t talk much about that but this young woman moved in right next door to us. She was from Shawsville, Virginia and she had the most distinctive southern accent that I had ever heard. I was moving back into the dorm for the beginning of my second year and down the hall I could hear, “Well hello, my name is Leigh Anne Taylor. I don’t believe I know you.” And every person down the hall, she was introducing herself to, so extroverted. And I was an introvert. So there was something really fascinating about her. So we just kind of hit it off. We loved some of the same things. She was such a force of light and encouragement and positive spirit that I—we just hit it off. We started walking to Seminary Singers, the choir that we sang in together, and there was something about her and something about me and we fell in love. And it was a very short, relatively speaking, courtship. We met in September, we were engaged on Valentine’s Day of 1985, and married in August of 1985. So it was kind of a fast thing but, she was getting a Masters [degree] in choral conducting and sacred music and I was getting a Masters in Divinity and so our trajectory just seemed kind of ideal. Lots of support, encouragement and we [were] very compatible in so many ways. One of the things, though, that was interesting about our early courtship was that as she was very open with me about previous relationships, previous sexual experiences, I was more hesitant. I just stopped at a point and didn’t talk about what I was wrestling with, so again, I kept that compartmentalized and didn’t talk about it until later and we’ll get to that part of the story. 19:36 EA: So you’ve gotten through kind of this whole part of your life while…while putting part of yourself in kind of a box, what did that do to you? How do you… how do you box in part of yourself and how does that affect you? 20:07   7   �JC: When you…when you don’t tend something that’s such an essential part of who you are, it keeps showing up. It’s like it keeps knocking on your heart to say I’m over here, don’t forget me. I’ve got things I need to tell you. I’ve got some work you need to do. And so not tending to that began to show up for me in ways that really, I think the best way I can describe it is when I would think about it, I would begin to feel a little depressed or down and so I tended to just acknowledge when I felt that way and then try and immerse myself in something that would help me feel better. 21:10 EA: So what things did you immerse yourself in? 21:15 JC: Well, doing my work. I probably, it was probably the beginning of me having some workaholic tendencies. I just threw myself into my work or if we were doing something together as a couple, we would just do that and… so, it was kind of a combination of those things. Fortunately, during seminary, we were both very busy, not only studying but working in different churches and in our free time, we were just enjoying each other’s company, we were making new friendships. Toward the end of my seminary career, we had the opportunity to travel to England, where I served as pastor of four Methodist churches in Plymouth, England in Devon, South England and that was such an incredible experience to be able to live abroad and to be a part of a different culture. It was the year of the 250th anniversary of the conversion of John and Charles Wesley, who founded the Methodist movement so being a part of that was pretty extraordinary. And then coming back from that in [19]88, ‘89 to finish seminary, the momentum then was to go from that seminary experience into serving a local church, being appointed in the United Methodist system and going back to Kansas where I grew up. So, for me, it was like going home; for Leigh Anne, it was like continuing to be far away from her home because she grew up, you know, right here in Shawsville, Virginia. 23:06 EA: Yeah. 23:09 JC: So when we moved back to Kansas, I began… I had two churches. I had plenty to do to keep me busy. We were wanting to start a family and so when we moved to the small community of Lyons, Kansas in central Kansas, Leigh Anne was pregnant, but a few months after we arrived there and went to the doctor to see how things were progressing, we learned that the fetus had died and it was what was called a molar pregnancy which if gone unchecked, it could have   8   �become cancerous so… she had a miscarriage and the early stages of our being there were kind of a mixture of delight and starting something new in our life together and grieving the loss of this potential new life. Part 2 (9:50 total) 0:00 [After a pause of about three minutes due to outside voices being picked up by the recorder, we resume the interview. This begins part two of the interview.] EA: Alright, so, picking up you have just moved. You and your wife are going through this miscarriage and kind of a new place, a loss of life—all of this. At this point, are you seeing more of—because you put part of yourself in a box—is this a time where that is kinda coming knocking at your heart more and more, or? 0:27 JC: In a way yes, and in a way no. After the miscarriage, we kind of went through a process, especially Leigh Anne, of redefining her purpose, because she was looking forward to being a mom. So, she shifted toward finding work in another town, where she could be at least a parttime Minister of Music—so she was not the traditional pastor’s wife. And when she got a job in another community, I remember announcing to the congregation that she would not be with us on Sundays, umm… and so that was a bit of strangeness for the congregation that was used to having a minister’s spouse there. But we worked through that, and the two congregations that we served had—we all had kind of a mutual love for each other, so we managed that beautifully. Probably halfway through my four years there, there was a tornado that went through Wichita, Kansas. And it wiped out a section of—on the east side, where we grew up. We went to church in Andover, Kansas, which is on the east side, and it killed a number of people that were very special to us. And during that time, I got this out of the blue phone call, left as a voice message. In those days we had answering machines... [laughter] 2:09 EA: [laughter] Yep. 2:09   9   �JC: ...the old clunkers that you could press and record your message. And the voice on the other end said, “Well, I thought you would be interested to know that I’m still alive.” Well, I recognized the voice. Now, let me back up a bit, because that reminds me of something that happened while we were in Seminary. So when I was in high school, I, through a series of connections, met a man, who was twelve years older than me, and we began to have a sexual relationship. So, I’m in high school, probably 16 [years old], he’s twelve years older—for me, as an adolescent, it was… the sexual experience was pretty extraordinary. And I didn’t know how to navigate the complexities of that. When I went to college, I shut that off, and I didn’t tell anybody about it. I didn’t tell Leigh Anne about it, I didn’t tell anybody. That was part of what I kept compartmentalized, so when in my second year of Seminary, after Leigh Anne and I were married, I got a letter from this person, basically saying “How dare you get married. I loved you.” And it was a threatening letter. So, it had a tone of blackmail in it. If you don’t do this, and this, and this, then I will do this, and this, and this. Well, that tormented me. Leigh Anne could tell there was something distinctively different about how I was going through my days. It led me to feel very disoriented, and disconnected, and no one to talk to. Who do I talk to? You know, how do I… what would I risk in doing so? And over the course of probably the next year, there were a number of letters. And, I decided to write back, I think, after the third one. And, I just, you know, I apologized, I asked forgiveness. And I got back this strange letter that said “Oh, everything is forgiven. I understand. I look forward to meeting your wife.” Well, that was the last thing I wanted to have happen. In the course of receiving those three letters, we were at home one evening, and my brother called, and he said “Joe, are you okay?” And I said “yeah, why? What’s going on?” And he said “Someone just called the house and said ‘Joe is dead.’” And I knew immediately who it was. It was this same person. So, for about a year—year and a half—I lived with that tension. It was like this thing that I had put over here, was coming back and tormenting me. And, I told Leigh Anne about my high school relationship with this guy. But again, I didn’t give a lot of details. 5:33 EA: How did she take that? 5:36 JC: It was hard. 5:37 EA: It was hard?   10   �5:37 JC: It was hard. I mean she was so grateful that I had shared it. But, she not knowing the complexity of the sexual nature of it, she thought it was more of like an experiment—just testing it out. And, so we didn’t really talk in depth about what that might mean for our relationship. So, moving ahead to the phone call that we got, that happened. And then, we, after four years at this particular church, at the end of that, probably in the fourth year, we learned that she was pregnant, and so we had our first child, Emma. And, then we moved to another community, where I became pastor. It was a larger church, and... 6:28 EA: About what year are we looking at? 6:29 JC: That would have been 1993. 6:33 EA: ‘93 okay. 6:34 JC: And during that time… our second child, Taylor, was born. And we were only there two years. And were invited to join, I was invited to join the staff of a downtown church in Wichita, Kansas to be an Associate Pastor of a large urban church. And, for us that was kind of thrilling. Wichita is where I grew up, so I had lots of connections there—my parents, some of my siblings. We could be in a chorale that we really loved together. And it was like a fresh start. And, so we moved in [19]95 to Wichita, to start that work. And, I forget… it was shortly after we moved to our new house. I was at home with Taylor, and Leigh Anne was away with Emma. And the phone rang, and it was this guy. So, from my high school years, which would have been [19]78 to ‘80 or so. 8:01 EA: Yeah. 8:02   11   �JC: Then the letters that came in ‘85, ‘86. The phone call that came in ‘90-something. Then... moving to Wichita in 1995. 8:23 EA: So, we are looking at like two decades of time. 8:25 JC: Two decades of this... 8: 27 EA: ...of this following you, almost stalker-y... 8:29 JC: Yeah, yeah, that’s what it felt like. He called, and I said... I was just stunned. And, I said “Hello?” And he said “Well, I...”, and I said “How did you reach me?” And he said he had called my brother about something. And I said “What are you calling for?” And he said “Well, I just wanted to call and apologize for all of the... um... harm I’ve caused you over these last decades. I wanted to apologize and ask your forgiveness,” and proceeded to say that he had met somebody. That they had gotten married out in like the continental divide, and wondered if I would come a do a blessing of their marriage, because [same-sex] marriage wasn’t legal then. And, I remember writing down his number, and when I was done, I threw the number away. I said, I can’t do this, and that was the last time that I’ve heard anything. 9:50 [At this point voice from surrounding areas are being heard through the recording, and we pause to relocate to another area of the library for better sound quality. This ends part two of the interview. Approximately 15 minutes break.] Part 3 (39:06 minutes) 0:00 EA: Alright, so we left off with this guy had contacted you and he had asked for a blessing on his marriage and you had kind of come off out of this…   12   �0:11 JC: Yeah, I threw away the number. I said I don’t wanna deal with that again. I thought it’s over and done with. I felt such a sense of relief that their seemed to be some closure to that. What I didn’t realize at the time was that hearing his voice, kind of reliving all of that, brought that thing that I had hidden away into full… 0:38 EA: Swing. 0:39 JC: Full Swing. It was like front and center. You have to deal with this or it’s gonna deal with you. Basically. So the next year, the work I had at the church was too much. I can clearly see that now. I was going in too many different directions. I was over functioning. I was not really engaged with my family and it was beginning to show. Part of my work was to direct a singles ministry which had a lot of really unhappy people in it. And when I tried to make some structural changes there were two older men in particular who were very antagonistic and just pointed all their efforts and antagonism toward me to just make my life as miserable as possible. Whatever I did didn’t seem to make any difference. So, I became depressed. I felt very unsure of myself. I felt kind of lost at sea. And in 1996, part of my work was to travel with single adults to different conferences and events and… I went to a singles conference and I saw a number of people that I had seen at previous events. One in particular that I saw, and I think I had met before, but I hadn’t really noticed before… and I thought this is a beautiful man. So that memory... that recollection I had at ten [years old]… I said this is a beautiful man. 2:39 JC: I feel an attraction here and I fought that attraction the whole time we were there. And the last night we were there I… he and I connected and we shared physical intimacy. That just broke me open and apart at the same time and I thought what have I done? What does this mean? The next day I felt like something had happened that would be transformative for me in a way but also I felt so guilty and so ashamed. Driving home that next day I began just asking myself… What am I gonna do? Who can I tell? Do I tell anybody? Do I just continue to hide this? Analyzing all of that, I went home and decided to not tell anybody. But it was interesting what kind of showed up. Part of the strangeness of this particular thing… in retrospect, it showed how disoriented I was. This singles conference was at the same time as my wedding anniversary. During my wedding anniversary, my wife and kids went to be here in Virginia and I went to a singles conference… as part of my work. Total unawareness. 4:39 JC: I was so lost in it all. So they were coming back and I got some special gifts for the kids which I always did and I got Leigh Anne probably the strangest gift I’d ever given her. I went out and bought her lingerie. When she got home from the trip she opened it and she didn’t know what to make of it. It was such a strange thing because it was… not that I hadn’t given her   13   �intimate gifts before but this was like… she didn’t know where it came from. She didn’t like it. It wasn’t her. But that was kind of the middle point of me going into an even deeper depression. Because I’d had this experience and wasn’t talking with anyone about it, my depression and my workaholism began to impact her. She was not naturally inclined to be depressed. So, a year later when my world was falling apart and I had reached the point where I couldn’t physically function… I remember going to her one night. She was sitting in a rocking chair and she was really struggling and so upset. I was still in pastor mode, not husband mode. Pastor mode… and I said “What can I do to help you?” She through gritted teeth said “You can go see a therapist.” She was mad... and rightfully so. She didn’t know anything. She didn’t know what was going on. So, I went to a therapist and it took me probably, and this was [19]97, it took me probably three sessions to get to the point where I could share with the therapist “I’m struggling with homosexuality.” Bless her. The therapist said “I am so honored that you shared your struggle with me.” Then we just talked about what it felt like to share that struggle. To this day, when I visit with students who are learning to become counselors and therapists, I tell that story. Because more than anything she created a space for me to tell my truth and then she honored my truth. She didn’t judge it. And that’s one of the biggest fears that people who are LGBTQ and also people of faith fear. It’s that rejection through religion or that rejection through family. Or you just name it. So, after that I agreed to talk to Leigh Anne. And the night I told her we were sitting in our basement on a dark blue couch in a grey room. I don’t think any lights were on. It kind of matched the depression that we were both in. I told that I had had an affair on that trip to the conference and that I didn’t know whether I was gay or straight. She kind of playfully but seriously hit me on the shoulder. She said “don’t you ever do that to me again.” We cried and talked some more and she went upstairs to bed and I stayed downstairs in our guest room. The next day when she woke up, she felt what she described as being cut open from her breast to her abdomen. The pain was so intense of what… it caught up with her. And that really began our journey and me coming out and stating my truth and her recognizing some things within herself that she had not been able to ever talk about or deal with. We agreed that as long as I was in therapy, she agreed that we would work on our marriage. So, the course of that next year, this would have been [19]97 to ‘98, I took a voluntary leave of absence from pastoral ministry. She continued at the church. She was still in a very visible thing and I was over here. She was the only one I was talking to about this and a couple of my colleagues at the church. 10:00 JC: So the congregation… no one else knew what was going on. Why I was depressed. Why I was feeling vulnerable. I saw probably… I finished up with that therapist and then I decided to start seeing a marriage and family therapist because I wanted to look at issues around being male… having these struggles with sexual orientation, what did that mean in terms of this spectrum of sexuality and seeing some of myself as feminine and that tension of feminine and masculine. I guess what we would call now the differentials between gender identity/gender expression and sexual behavior/expression. The next summer, we were both seeing this marriage family therapist and the next summer was our anniversary. We went out to dinner and then we went to Border’s which was a music and arts bookstore in Wichita. Leigh Anne went to look at music and I went over to the poetry section and I was reading Emily Dickinson: “hope is the   14   �thing with feathers that perches on the soul and sings the tune without the words and never stops at all.” While I was reading Emily Dickinson I was leaning against fiction and literature and I was looking down the science fiction and mystery aisle and one of the clerks from the front of the store came walking and he was followed by two young men the last of whom had this gorgeous brown hair. Tufts peeking out from underneath this bandana… red bandana. When he turned the corner he looked at me and winked and smiled. I nearly dropped Emily Dickinson on the floor. I thought “oh, here we go again.” I’m pretty sure I talked about that experience with Leigh Anne later that evening. Within the next two days we had an appointment with the therapist we were both seeing. It was during that session that I said “I’m attracted to men.” 12:42 JC: When I said that it really changed everything because I had reached a level where I could speak another part of my truth. It was probably one of the most terrifying moments of my life… and liberating. It was all of that wrapped up into one. I left the room and Leigh Anne stayed and for years I didn’t know what she and the therapist talked about. It wasn’t until we started writing our book, which I’m sure we’ll get to, that she said that during that conversation the therapist looked at her and said “Leigh Anne, Joe’s homosexuality is your cross to bear.” And she was like “The hell it is” [laughter]. She abruptly finished the session and left. We never talked about that other than we both knew that we needed to make plans to do something else. She realized after I had that clarity that she had been keeping this in and hadn’t shared any of it with her support system. So she wrote letters to all of her family members to tell them so that they would all get the same information, what had happened. I, on Labor Day of 1998, called up my parents first thing in the morning and I said “I need to talk with you.” And I went over to mom and dad’s house and they were sitting in the kitchen and I sat down and with everything I had in me I said “Mom and Dad, I had an affair during a trip. I don’t know…” I was still wrestling with my sexuality because I said “I don’t know whether I’m gay or straight… and Leigh Anne and I are separating.” Now, for me that had all been building up. For my parents it was like… it was shocking. Because they thought everything was okay. My dad was very stoic and silent. My mom came over and she sat down next to me and she patted my leg and said “Joe, I don’t have a problem with you being gay. I have a problem with you getting a divorce.” She didn’t want Leigh Anne out of my life or their lives. So I went from telling mom and dad to telling my brother and my youngest sister. And then I called my other sister. On my way home after all of that, the tears were so heavy I could not see driving and I pulled off the road. When I got home I called one of my best friends from college who was a clergy in the area and she came over and she sat with me. We talked through ways that I could get through this. So Leigh Anne and I separated. I ended up moving out and moving in with this friend in an extra room. And over the course of the next nine months Leigh Anne filed for divorce and I was very cooperative in all of that. 16:35 JC: At every stage we kept our communication as open as possible because our children were six and four and they needed to know that we were there for them. That this is an extraordinary change. So, when I decided to move out… we were all together. We had just moved to a new   15   �house that actually our congregation had helped fund the down payment and redecorate the house. So, there was that pressure of going through this separation and transition when we had just moved into this house. When I came over, I sat down with the kids and I told Emma and Taylor, who were six and four, that I was moving out and that I loved them. I tried to explain that… why I was moving out and that mommy and I needed some time apart and that we loved them. I remember asking both of them… If there was something they wanted to bring to me so that I could take it with me to where I was going to be living so that when they came to stay with me or see me they would see something that was familiar to them. Before I asked them to do that Emma disappeared to her room and Leigh Anne went to check on her. When she went in she said Emma was kneeling by her bed praying. So the kids came back out. Taylor was so young he was four. He didn’t really know how to make sense of it. But they each brought me something. I think Taylor probably brought me a doll and Emma [laughter] walked over to me and she handed me a piggy bank. She said “Daddy, I want you to have my piggy bank so that you can put money in it for me anytime you want to.” [laughter] It was perfect because we all broke open laughing. I probably still have that somewhere or I gave it back to her I don’t remember which. Then, in January of that year we decided that I needed to tell the kids more about why we were divorcing. And so I had in my mind this just simple telling that I’m gay, this is what it means to be gay. The day before we were gonna tell the kids, Leigh Anne laid down for a nap and she went into a pretty deep sleep and she had a dream. The dream was this kind of formulated story of how we would tell the kids. She woke up from her dream and she wrote it all out in this little memo book. She shared that with me and so we agreed to read that story in our voices to the children. 20:01 JC: When we sat down to… We all sat down on the couch and we read the story and we all cried. The kids asked a few questions but the gist of the story was that “Daddy was made this way. Mommy was made this way. Daddy realized that he’s homosexual. Mommy realized she’s heterosexual. Daddy had this deep… because he never talked about it he had this deep hurt in his heart and now he’s finally able with the help of professionals to make sense of it. But the one thing we want you to know is that we love you, that will never change. You cannot divorce us even if you want to. And God loves you. We want you to know of that love forever.” So that was in January. In May, after Leigh Anne learned she had gotten hired for a job in Blacksburg and was making arrangements to move, the divorce papers came. We sat down probably toward the end of May to sign those papers. We were in the front room. There were boxes everywhere because they were getting ready to move. A realtor was showing the house to a couple who would eventually buy it. The kids were running around. We’re on the couch and the coffee table… the divorce papers are spread out on it for me to sign… for both of us. While we were talking the love that we had and still have for each other was so evident that we made a new vow to speak and act in loving ways toward each other and about each other for the sake of our children and for our own health and wholeness. I don’t know that we ever wrote those down but because they came from here [the heart], they guided our lives from that moment on and that was the June of 1999. They moved here, and I continued my work in Wichita. So, we began that next stage of the journey.   16   �22:43 EA: What… going through this, obviously there’s a lot of emotion in going both through divorce and trying to explain something like that to your kids. What kind of… What kind of fears did you have? What kind of emotions did you have trying to explain something so dear to you to your children? 23:01 JC: Well my fears were… you know initially that I would just be cut off. I had heard horror stories of men coming out to their spouses and then spouses just taking the children and saying you can’t ever see them again. I knew based on our relationship and how Leigh Anne was even through the intensity of the whole experience that that would not happen. But it was a traumatic change. It was a huge adjustment and I knew that it would impact all of us because it was taking what felt like home and breaking that apart. So each of us in our own way were having to create a new sense of home and we all worked really hard at that. Being far away, I, for two years, only saw the kids maybe three times a year. I would either come here or we would meet in the middle. Like we would both drive partway and meet in Illinois and the kids would come back with me. We talked often. Wrote often. Shared what was going on. I was continuing to work for an urban ministry. I was on leave, but I decided that I was feeling better. I wanted to take the chance to come off of leave. It made… I took all the steps to do that. 25:00 JC: I knew the risks involved in that because then and even now the United Methodist Church is… you are just one moment away from someone filing a complaint or bringing up charges. So that was a big risk and concern for me. But I went back in. I served a year as an associate pastor at a church outside of Wichita. I had a great experience. Such a wonderful congregation. I had developed a pretty broad circle of friends. Mostly gay men who were just extraordinary people and we loved and supported each other. To back up just a bit… when I was in Wichita [in 1995], I think it was the first couple of weeks I was assigned to that church, and I only learned this later too, but the senior pastor had asked a man who was… a peer, my age, if he would reach out to me and kind of help acclimate me to the life of the church and what was going on. I remember that he and I met for lunch at a Chili’s in Wichita. The conversation we had… we had met before, I think, through an experience that had been held at the church before I came there. So I knew him peripherally. But the depth of our conversation was so compelling to me because I rarely had that kind of in-depth conversation about social justice or issues of human sexuality. I remember him asking me how I felt about homosexuality and the struggle the church was having. We had a great talk about that. Well, over the course of those years we became very close friends and at one point he confided in me that the journey I was making—and this was after I had separated and we had divorced—the journey I was going through was similar to the journey he was going through. Because of our closeness as friends, when he was going through the throws of trying to decide whether or not to come out and separate from his wife, his wife ended up filing a complaint against me for manipulating her husband into the homosexual lifestyle. Which was completely inaccurate, but I knew where she was coming from and the   17   �place from which she did this. So there ended up being two complaints filed against me. This all happened in the summer of 2001. During that season of all of that happening, I was emerging… continuing to emerge in my own coming out process but I was still within an institution that encouraged me to be closeted and hidden. So when faced with whether or not to go through a trial, I surrendered my credentials. I made the decision to take the energy that I would have used up in a trial that would have gotten nowhere to fully come out and move closer to my children. So, I surrendered my credentials on July 5th of 2001. [I] was no longer a United Methodist clergy. I had been invited to come and stay with a dear friend who was a United Methodist pastor who was getting married that September. He said “come stay with us in Atlanta. Just take some time to heal and figure out where you want to go with this. That was the September of 2001. And so I did. I began… I wrestled with whether or not to move to Atlanta, which was six hours from the kids or whether to move to Roanoke or somewhere closer. During that time, I was just trying to figure out… I didn’t want… 30:00 JC: I wanted to be in a place where I could be fully out and just not have to deal with the tension of not being out. So I really wasn’t high on Roanoke. But after I officiated their wedding which was in Washington State, I flew back to Atlanta and arrived back at their house a little before I think it was 6:45 A.M on September 11th, 2001. When I got to their house and turned on the TV, I saw the second airplane fly into the other World Trade Center tower. That whole day was… I was a mess. I thought, I can’t be in Atlanta when my kids are six hours away. I need to figure out how to be closer to them. So I drove to be… to spend some time with the kids. Leigh Anne and I were having great conversations and doing everything we could to support the kids. I remember asking Leigh Anne “how close is too close” because there was a house right across the street from them that was for sale [laughter]. I couldn’t afford a house, so I don’t know what I was thinking. So I ended up moving to Roanoke that fall. While I was checking out Roanoke I learned that a year before there had been a gun violence incident at the Backstreet Café on Salem Avenue where a gunman had open fire, realizing it was a gay bar, had killed one person and injured six and I thought “good gosh, what am I doing moving to Roanoke where this is happening.” But I also noticed that the city didn’t condone that violence. They rallied and said “this is not acceptable here, this isn’t the kind of city we want to be.” The night of… the first anniversary of that, when they were having a candlelight vigil I happened to be in Roanoke and went to a Pride auction which was part of the annual Pride festival. It was at the Unitarian [Universalist] church and I had been invited by a friend, and I was sitting in the back so I could watch people as they came in and I looked over and I saw these three handsome men come in, and I thought “well, they’re probably friends who knows maybe they’re all together.” I didn’t know. And I kept… through the night one of them kept looking at me. So I looked back. I’d learned how to do the eye dance and not make any commitments [laughter]. And so you know this auction just went on and on and on and finally at the end of it I didn’t have anything else to do so I was helping clean up and stack chairs. The man I had been doing the eye dance with came over to me and we introduced ourselves to each other and he said “Hi, I’m James,” and I said “Hi, I’m Joe.” So original. Right there in the middle of the Unitarian sanctuary. We agreed to meet the next day to get to know each other better at the Pride in the Park festival which at   18   �that time was in Highland Park. Well, I saw him later that night at the candlelight vigil for Backstreet. We met the next day at Pride in the Park and spent the whole afternoon together and had an amazing dinner together. We started dating. I still had not moved to Roanoke, but I decided to move here because I had met someone. I was starting to meet new friends… and my kids were close by. So, in November of 2001 I moved to Roanoke. 34:21 EA: So, I guess we’re getting a little bit towards the end of our time, so looking back on all of your life experience and everything… if you had to talk to somebody who was young who was going through kind of coming out and maybe wrestling with the idea of religion and their sexuality, what would be your advice to somebody like that? 34:47 JC: My advice would be to recognize people in your life that have created a safe space for you to dwell in and entrust them with your story. And in doing so, recognize that your story is a gift and that you have a choice for the most part about who you share that story with. So it’s important to know that when you’re sharing your story that it be with someone who will receive your story as a gift and honor it. From that I would say find your place to call home. Wherever that is. When I moved to Roanoke I was starting over completely. All I had here were my children and I know I couldn’t count on them for me to have a social life [laughter]. They were 11 and 9, you know, in another community. So in my starting over I just remembered everyday who I am, what gifts I bring to this world… and I showed up and I went into a lot of situations that were uncomfortable for me because as an introvert being in and among people was not my natural thing. But because I had practiced being an extrovert and had been a pastor for so long, I had those essential skills to meet people and build relationships. So I just started to do that. So find those people and places that are supportive. In Roanoke, I found people in this city just loved me and welcomed me and said “you can be at home here and we want you to be at home here.” So fast-forwarding to 2017 when I had just finished pastoring the Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge where I’d been pastor for eight years… I wanted to expand my work in social justice. I didn’t know what that would look like. I had just been invited to interview for the senior pastor position at the founding church of the Metropolitan Community churches in Los Feliz, Los Angeles, [California]. When I realized after going out there that it wasn’t a match for me or my family… James, whom I met at the Unitarian church that night in 2001, we’ve been together most of those twenty years. We decided to get married that summer of 2017 after it was legal with family and close friends. We had added two children to our family through surrogacy and he’s their natural father. Jenny and JJ, who are now 12 and 9. When I came back from that experience and realized that if I were just by myself it would make sense for me to go, but I wasn’t. I have my family here. It dawned on me that Roanoke, where I thought I would just live temporarily until my older children finished high school and went on their way and then I would move, had become my home. So what better thing to do than invest my livelihood in this place that had welcomed me. So that’s when I decided to run for public office and really work toward social justice for anyone who was in a vulnerable position, anyone who’s experienced marginalization. So I had never run   19   �for office before in a formal way. I’d been student government president in college and seminary. So, I put together this kind of grassroots [campaign]… [audio cuts out] Part Four (9:50 total) 0:00 [The recorder began to run out of battery power and had to be switched out. There was a break of approximately ten minutes between Part 3 and Part 4. This begins part 4 of the interview.] EA: So, starting back up with the grassroots campaign… 0:04 JC: Mhmm. 0:04 EA: …and going into politics that way. 0:06 JC: Yeah, so in the fall of 2017 I decided to run for office. I announced my campaign in January. And it was really a grassroots, evolving… people saying “yeah, I want to help, let’s learn together.” I don’t think... I had maybe two people on my campaign team that had ever been on a campaign before. So, we just figured it out together. And, I learned very quickly that the keys were just being relatable. People want to know who you are, what you believe in, what you find value in, in terms of local government, how you can work with them to make a difference, because I think most people feel like they can make a difference, too. And, so, I started campaigning in January. I knocked on a lot of doors, put up a lot of yard signs. And the election was… I think it was May first actually, the first Tuesday in May. And, I, my son—my oldest son—drove me around that day to different polling places. And, I really didn’t know what to expect. And, when we got to the place that had been designated for us to watch returns, I started pulling them up, and I was like “Oh my gosh, there are a lot of people voting for me.” And, by the end of the night I had received the highest number of votes. And one of my colleagues who I had run with was second, and so we, two newbies, were elected along with an incumbent. And because I received the highest number of votes, I also became the Vice-Mayor for the city. So, I started my four-year term on July 1st of 2018, and so I am halfway through. And I am loving being part of City Council. I have a great group of colleagues who are very progressive and forward-looking…. [they] want our city to be a place that is welcoming and inclusive of all   20   �people. And just, modeling that every way that we can. So, in addition to being the Vice-Mayor, I am a chaplain at Hermitage Roanoke, which is a senior living community, ironically owned by the United Methodist Church. And I am also Community Outreach Coordinator for Highland Park Elementary School. So, I, find that between those three jobs I get to meet and interact with people of all ages everyday and find it really pretty extraordinary and exciting. 3:00 EA: What was it like to run for such a public office as an openly gay person? What was... 3:06 JC: It was a little strange. Now, I think most people knew because I had been very vocal, kinda frontline in my pastoral leadership of the church for issues around equality for LGBTQ people. And, I just didn’t hide that anymore. And so, everyday I kind of wondered, you know, will that be honored? Will that be questioned? Will people... be slanderous toward me? So, I was always kind of bracing myself for hate mail, strange messages, that sort of thing. And, what really delighted me was that there was very little of that. And most people just wanted to hear what I had to say. And what I believed about our city, and what we could do together. And, even afterwards, you know, I still meet people who have no idea that I’m gay. Just like... and yet it doesn’t seem to be a barrier, because they’ve gotten to know me. And see that I care about them, and there’s a mutual respect. Not always the case. I’ve had a few encounters in the last year that people have done derogatory things toward me because of my sexual orientation. But I am pretty much able to take that in stride. But I know there are a lot of people just emerging and coming out in their own stories for whom that is a very vulnerable place to be. And so, if I can be a source of support and encouragement for them, then that means everything. 4:54 EA: So, I saw that, more recently you were on the Roanoke citizen’s panel, and you were interviewing candidates for the new Police Chief..What is it like for… with the history of the LGBTQ community and police interactions… what is like to be sitting there on that council doing those interviews? That has to be a little bit interesting. 5:14 JC: Well, that was, that was several years ago. 5:18   21   �EA: Oh… 5:19 JC: Probably 2016. I think I was still pastor at MCC [Metropolitan Community Church]. That was when Chief Jones was promoted to the Chief. 5:28 EA: Yes. 5:29 JC: And, it was very special to be a part of that process, because I think, you have to look at it from a couple of angles. One is how LGBTQ people have typically been marginalized, and in some places treated poorly by police or law enforcement because there is a lack of sensitivity or understanding. But one of the things that impressed me about Chief Jones was his… clearly, he was knowledgeable about those challenges. And he even conveyed a story that he teaches at Virginia Western [Community College] about encouraging people to consider law enforcement. And he talked about a transgender student coming, and asking “Could I apply for a spot on the police force?” and he explained the process and he said “you can, and we would be glad to welcome you.” You know, you have to go through police academy and all of those things. But I was really impressed with that approach. And, while there are challenges… sometimes you get an officer that doesn't have the same sensitivity that someone else does, and, so the encounter might be not what you expected. And we certainly know that people of color experience that… for decades, and still do. But particularly I think for people who are transgender today, there is such a lack of understanding about that process and that journey. And, just... instead of being punitive and judgmental with them, asking and learning what questions to ask. And, it’s a process of discovery, and inviting the person who is going through that process to kind of become your mentor in learning what it is like to go through it. Whether it’s accessing healthcare, or being pulled over and having to explain to an officer that the name on your I.D. does not match the sex of your birth because you’re trans. See what I mean? Those are the kinds of things that we are continuing to learn about. So, I appreciate the openness that I have experienced with public safety officials in the city to work towards a better understanding of that. You can’t guarantee that every person feels that way, but if your leadership approaches it that way that means everything. 8:27 EA: That’s good. So, looking towards the future, what goals do you have in your future?   22   �8:34 JC: Well, I love public service and I want to continue to do that, as long as it’s meaningful for the city that I serve. I don’t have aspirations to serve beyond local government. I think that’s where it’s at. I love the dynamic of that, and the possibilities that are there. I see part of my role as recognizing emerging leaders of all ages, and really encouraging them to get involved. Because I believe that... as important as it is for me to serve, it’s equally important for me to identify who will come after me. And to nurture them and nourish those skills within them. Now, again it’s up to the electorate.,The city has to vote and decide. But if I can play a role in that, and if I can help pave the way for people regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity to believe that they can be elected and serve in leadership in the city, fantastic. Then I couldn’t be more proud of that kind of a contribution. 9:47 EA: That’s great. Thank you so much for your time. 9:48 JC: Thank you all very much. [END]   23   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Joe Cobb Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Joe Cobb Interviewer: Eve Allen Interviewee: Joe Cobb Date: 21 February 2020 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College, Salem, Virginia Total Duration: 82:58 (in four parts) Transcription prepared by: Miranda Lawhorn, Buck Parrott, and Eve Allen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 21 February 2020 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Joe Cobb, Eve Allen, Miranda Lawhorn, Buck Parrott. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CobbJoe https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5618/Rhame_Ashley_[compressed].mp3 53e751c544aebda82dac08004c2a14bb https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5618/Rhame_Ashley.pdf d6cb1f85f18148673fe8c5a85c5a1996 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Ashley Rhame February 23, 2020 Interviewer: Julian Edwards Narrator: Ashley Rhame Date: February 23, 2020 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College, Salem, Virginia Transcribed by: Julian Edwards, Saja Alexander, and Sophia Morales Duration: 66:45 Index: 0:00 = childhood in Roanoke, Virginia (1990s) 3:07 = coming to terms with her sexuality; coming out to her parents 8:30 = being a part of a religious family; joining a church in the early 2000s 11:33 = discovering her sexuality in middle school (early 2000s); beginning to date girls in high school (mid 2000s); coming out to her parents 22:43 = moving to Atlanta (late 2000s) 25:12 = hosting a local poetry event in Melrose (late 2010s); on the importance of Black spaces and events 33:32 = on being Black and LGBTQ 36:53 = the internet and social media 41:15 = hate crimes, racism, discrimination; raising one’s consciousness 49:30 = on gay marriage being legalized 51:26 = on assimilation and heteronormativity 54:51 = romantic relationship 1:01:45 = social media; online relationships and online communities 1:04:30 = dreams for the future 00:00 JE: Hello, my name is Julian Edwards. Today is February 23rd, 2020, and I am interviewing Ashley Rhame at Fintel Library for the Oral History Project for Dr. Rosenthal’s LGBTQ+ Storytelling class at Roanoke College. So, first off I just want to start by asking you like early life questions such as where did you grow up and how did you like it there? 1 �00:25 AR: I grew up in Roanoke. I was here born and raised. Roanoke, Virginia. I grew up in the Northwest area of Roanoke. I know y’all are here for college and things like that but off of Hershburger [Road], Lafayette [Boulevard], maybe a little behind if we’re coming toward the mall [Valley View mall] behind the mall area and things like that. So, I grew up there. I enjoyed growing up in the Northwest neighborhood, it was kinda all I knew growing up. I thought Roanoke was just all of that. We would venture out to Salem and Vinton, and things like that, but Roanoke was, that inner city was kinda all I knew growing up. We—down from riding bicycles, to skating up and down the street, to basketball games—it all happened. I lived on Coveland Drive. 01:12 JE: So you like sports growing up? 01:13 AR: I like sports growing up. I was a sports girl before anything growing up. I think I grew up with a family of girls…mostly, but my dad, he was into sports. He was [into] basketball… a lot of guys on my streets and things like that that I would just kinda, I wanted to do what they were doing. I wanted to play basketball. 01:37 JE: Tell me more about your family demographic, how was that? 01:41 AR: Family? Ah, okay. What do you mean family demographic? 01:43 JE: I say… pretty much what did y’all do for fun… Yeah, what did you do for fun, let's start with that. 01:49 AR: Yeah.. what did we do for fun? My family… My mom’s from New Jersey. My mom is from New Jersey so we would travel back and forth to New Jersey a lot, so we did do a little traveling growing up. We spent every Florida… [laughter]—I mean, every Florida, I wish—every summer going to Florida and we would go to Disney World, but things like that were big trips and things like that we did for fun. But around town for awhile. my mom she was heavily into the church so we went to, we went to church Sundays, Wednesdays, and any other days in between that she felt that she needed to be in church and that she had to serve. Ah, lets see… My sister, we would run off to the movies and things like that a lot of times, we visited… one of 2 �the things I really remember is with growing up in a close knit community, I guess you could say, everybody knew each other on the block, so if Toya down the street was getting in trouble for something, pretty much we were getting in trouble for something too because we had everything to do with it. So it was everybody’s parents could correct us and things like that. So it was different, but it was all I knew. 03:07 JE: Okay, so in terms of like your sexuality, were they accepting when you came out? 03:11 AR: Mmm… No, I don’t believe personally they would have been accepting of my sexuality. It wasn’t something that was necessarily talked about in our communities. I knew people, choir directors and people like that who in the community were gay and in the church, but we never really discussed that. It was just something that we didn’t really talk about. So I knew that when I had an attraction to women, I just knew that that wasn’t something that was going to be easy to bring up. It wasn’t just something I could say over dinner, or anything like that. It was something that took a lot of thought, and just feeling out how family members really felt about different things, but as I have grown up, they have become more accepting and I think as time has changed… And a lot more, I guess, people are willing to be more open. I guess you can say. And that confidence, I guess…. [amid that,] they have become more accepting, I guess. In certain ways [laughter]. 04:17 JE: Okay. Did you verbally express these feelings to your family or did they find out on their own or how did this.. How did it go about? 04:24 AR: ...Let’s see. I verbally expressed it to my mother, but it was also at a time where I felt like I didn’t have a choice. It was a lot going on with a best friend of mine and they wanted to… the family wanted to know what was going on and it was just like okay, well, [you] want to know this was going on... We’re going to spell it out, and my mom, after that story kind of came out of what me and my best friend had kind of fell out over, we were fighting. It was mostly I didn’t say I had a girlfriend or something like that…. Two people wanting to make more out of a friendship than it really should be, I guess you can say. And I think that was the early stages of not really knowing who to talk to or who to express these feelings to. So I guess if that answers it little bit, that answers it a little bit, but they… they, after that I will say, it was refreshing to come out, to not have to hold that secret in anymore. But after that it was also my mom she was heavily into the church and I received a lot of letters that were written from her, and books— from Joyce Meyer to T.D. Jakes and things like that.1 And I’m just like, “I don’t need a book.” 1 Joyce Meyer and T.D. Jakes are both prominent Christian self-help authors. 3 �05:43 JE: Yes. How do you say you responded to like getting these letters, and these books, and everything? 05:46 AR: I was very passive. I didn’t feel like that I could really approach or say anything to my mom about like, that I don't think that this is a phase, you know, or this is not something you grow out of, or that needs to be prayed out of. I don’t think I had the confidence then to say that or even that I knew to say that or even that… I think it was also, it was just something that I knew that was in me, this attraction was in me. I enjoyed it. I was just like, it wasn’t something that I was afraid of. I didn’t really know how to defend that. I didn’t have anything to support it. I didn’t have any really experience with anybody else who had really been through it. For me personally to say, “Hey, can you help me with this?” or “How can I navigate this?” It was kind of just something that I internalized. I guess you could say that I kept it with me, and it was like, “Oh, yeah. This is who I…” almost like creating another personality. This is who I am with my mother. She thinks I am this way. And that was kind of detrimental as well because you start to look like for another person when that’s not truly who you are. You have to be another person, and secret, and hide, and so always in a sense of feel like I’m continuously coming out of the closet, if that makes sense. 07:05 JE: So do you think the people in your family tried to understand like who you were becoming or who you were? 07:10 AR: I think that as I become more confident and they see that this isn’t a phase, I think that they firsthand can, I guess, identify or be more empathetic or sympathetic I guess you could say, to be more open minded to who I am and how I live my life. But I will say that over the years that they have been more accepting. My mom, we have way better conversations. She doesn’t think I just like anybody who walks by [laughter]… it’s a lot of fun. But it’s also hard. Some things I don’t want to break down and talk to my mom about are just.,. I’m just like, “Just, it is what it is.” And I say that just because I want to be respectful of a sense that because I am who I am doesn’t mean that what you believe isn’t true to you. But so, I guess we tried not to cross those boundaries and be respectful of each other. I’m not trying to persuade her that this is right for her, but it’s right for me. And if her beliefs tell her differently, then that’s fine. That’s the way you want to believe. But I’ve learned to believe differently. 08:27 JE: Being open minded… 4 �08:28 AR: Yeah. 08:30 JE: You talked about being in a religious family, how did that play a role in your upbringing? 08:34 AR: Well, actually, I remember getting into church maybe at around 11 or 12 [years old]. I remember… my dad’s not heavily into the church. My mom and my dad aren’t married. They were together for twenty years, never married. We lived with my mom, but we always knew who my dad was. He was a great provider. We never wanted for anything. I had two great parents who took care of me. We just didn’t live together or anything like that. So my dad, he was raised… his mom married a pastor. So he was raised mostly as a pastor’s kid in the church and things like that. And my mom, she was raised, as well, not a pastor's kid, but her mom was heavily into the church. And for a while, we didn’t go to church. That wasn't a regular thing until like I said, till about I was 12 years old, 11 or 12 years old around that time. So before then, we did what we wanted to do. It was Friday nights at the skating rink, Saturday nights at the skating rink, seven to seven, doing those type of things. And so, it changed our whole lifestyles. We didn't…. My sister and I, we didn’t know what to do. We didn’t have to get up for church on Sunday, to be there at 10 o’clock in the morning and we have a whole house full of people… for a while my cousins live with us from Jersey. So that was… it was different, but I accepted it. I enjoyed the fellowship of church. I enjoyed the praise and worship of church. I still think that's even one of my center places of where I find peace and just how music can penetrate you and, you know, heal you and music as a gift. So, I will say it definitely sticks with me in a lot of ways and I have to unlearn a lot of things that I learned in the church because it doesn’t apply to everyone else out there and to be respectful of how they live their lives and the people that they are. But I will say it definitely shaped me even into being confident, and into coming out. One of my friends asked me recently, do people see me as someone, you know, a Christian, someone who goes to church and things like that? I'm saying, I think they do, but I don't know why it has to be separate. I guess I can be gay. I can date women. I can go to church. I can do this that. So that's hard here in Roanoke I will say, because it’s… I accept it but not all people in my community—black people in my community—accept me into the church, so I don’t always feel comfortable going to church now. But I will say that it is a big part of my life. It changed at a critical time, the 18 or so minimal years of my life. So yes, I do think it definitely changed. 11:33 JE: So, I want to talk to you about school. So, elementary school, how’d that go? Like, when did you feel like you were, pretty much… how do I say this?... were attracted to the same gender? 5 �11:47 AR: Ah, I guess it was in elementary school. I want to say… I didn't necessarily have it in my mind in elementary school. I knew personally…. I think it’s a funny story… I knew personally around that initial step out of elementary school. That initial step out of elementary school, it was definitely that first step into middle school. I dated a guy. He was great. We both played sports and things like that. But for me, it was… I was attracted to his mother. And it was every time she answered the phone, or I knew that [when] we celebrated and exchanged gifts and things like that, it was the fact that I knew she was picking it out. Down to I liked her car. It was more of a sense, hmm, like “Ashley, you, this may be a little more than just, oh, I just like this person” or “I want to be friends with this person.” So for me it was knowing that… I was friends with this person here, but I was heavily attracted to his mother and as I went on in different areas in my life, I think I realized how I was attracted to women. And most like, it was… I think my sister’s cheerleading coach who was a little older and established and that was what she wanted to do in life. I don't want to say it was women who were doing things, but it was woman… that's where I was inspired, or I guess I felt the most inspired around. So, I feel like that was for me in middle school. And I didn’t necessarily know what to do with that. I just continued to date him. This is what you were supposed to do. I didn’t know any of my friends that I could tell that “hey, I think I like his mother,” or there wasn’t any, I guess, girls who were in my school that I necessarily liked. So I didn't really know how to explain to people, this is what’s going on with me. And I just thought people thought I would be crazy like, “Oh, this girl Ashley is crazy, like don’t talk to her.” So that's how it was for me. I think after I learned to fully accept that, it took a while. It took all throughout mostly high school. I dated my first girlfriend, probably my 11th grade year. But like I said, I knew back from sixth grade that this is what I wanted to do. So, I believe in middle school, it was a girl, Tempus, and she was out in the open, but I didn't know how to be that way. I kind of envied her in a sense, and, you know, she would come and talk to me and sometimes I didn't know how to talk to her because I'm like, I'm not trying to shy away from you. But I’m also, don't know how to open up. I don’t know how to share this with you. And, and also I know of the backlash of… I knew people who talked about her, as well. I knew people who just, you know, were friends with her, but would, you know, laugh about it in the background. So that kind of stopped me as well. Now, I can like, you know, “thank you Tempus,” like you were a light at that time. I didn’t know you would be but yeah, so that was even kind of hard for me. I knew. I knew it wasn’t easy on her end. She was out and she was open about it. And I knew what other people said in the background. And I knew also, I guess, like I said, in the black church, in the black community, the things that weren’t said just for no reason I guess you can say. 15:21 JE: Tell me more about your peers’ responses to how you feel. 15:24 6 �AR: One of my friends, when I was in 11th grade, she asked… she realized I was hanging out with someone a lot more. I remember my friend Natasha, and she realized that I was hanging out with this girl Ashley a lot more, and she asked me and she came up to me and she asked me “hey, are you dating Ashley?” and I was just like “No, we weren’t dating. We were actually just friends.” But that kind of gave me… I did actually tell her well I’m dating someone from another school and that they are a girl. So for me that was like the first time of like, she asked. I’m gonna just see how it goes out there and she was just like “alright, I just thought y'all spend a lot of time together. Like I thought I just thought I would ask,” and I feel like that really helped me a lot. One of my best friends, Mishika, who lived right beside me. She’s just like, “Oh, yeah, I was just waiting for you to tell me” or “waiting for you to feel comfortable” and things like that. So a lot of my friends, they responded well, but I think it was something that I didn’t know how to fully say. So I kind of just kind of let them find out about it and if they were okay with it, that was fine, and I had nobody never talk to me again, per se. But it wasn’t something that I felt comfortable with fully coming out and saying. I lived in Georgia for a little while and that was also kind of easier for me. I left my senior year of high school and so I was able to be just, be a new person in Georgia and that was kind of helpful. I didn’t know anybody so I could identify how I wanted to with nobody would necessarily question it, or know my background, that I dated Dominic in six [and] seventh grade, you know [laughter]. Nobody would know that. So, that kind of made it, that made it a lot easier. A lot of seeing a lot more brown faces who looked like me in the community, living in Atlanta, things like that. That kind of helped with it. But I will say my peers were pretty open. I think not all of them kind of knew what to say or what I was going through. But I think as times have changed, I think that they have become more accepting and knowing that, you know, everybody lives the life the way that they want a mother’s love and that it doesn’t matter who you go to bed with or spend your time with, that we’re friends, and that’s what matters the most to me… we’re friends and that was kind of what got me through a lot. 17:55 JE: So you feel like people were just happy that you were happy, rather than… 17:57 AR: Happy that I’m happy. And I think it’s mostly of getting over that fear or that notion of even thinking that people were still so homophobic or close minded, and I know that is true and very open in the world, but it is slowly progressing and opening up in the black community and in family. And the biggest part is that somehow learning or finding a way to talk about it. Until I was really able to tell my mom like, that it really hurt my feelings, that it wasn’t fully true, and here we are ten years later, and I still have those letters in my head. So, being able to talk about it and just being able to understand that everything changes. We evolve, and we may not have all the right answers now, or know, but it’s about being in good spaces with each other and being able to respect how one another lives their life. 7 �18:57 JE: Yeah. So you told me how your mother responded to it, so can you tell me how your father responded to it? 19:01 AR: Ah, my father… I don’t want to say… I don’t know if I really came out to my father. I know he knows. I think he maybe asked around to my sister or a couple of my cousins and they told [him] and they just like, you know, ”it’s something you need to talk to Ashley about.” I think that it’s kind of something within our relationship that I think it’s kind of just unspoken, that we haven’t really had to discuss it and that’s kind of helpful for me as well. He’s met every one of my girlfriends, he’s celebrated every one of my birthdays with them and things like that. He’s more respectful than my mom would be in most situations, in most situations with things. So I don’t think it’s necessarily something I had to come out and tell him. I think it’s something that we just kind of understood about… he understood about me, and he accepted it about me, and I think that's been a big helping and stepping stone with that, and especially as I grow up and I realized that I’m a lot more like my dad than I thought I was, looks wise, personality wise, things like that, that we have a lot of common things. And I think that… I lived with him for a long while with just me and him and I think being able to spend that time with one another, it just … it kind of became a question or something that didn’t really need to be discussed. He doesn’t ask me when I’m having kids or when I’m getting married, or when I’m going to meet the right guy or he’s never questioned when I went on a date with a guy or when I went on a date with the girl. I’m just like, “yeah, I'll be back later.” He’s just always been open and he was like, “okay, alright see you later. Have fun. Let me know if you need anything.” So I think that part with my dad is... it was a lot easier than my mother’s response and I feel that even still my mother carries a response even ten years later. She’s not as friendly to my girlfriend and I know why. Because she doesn’t respect my… or necessarily respect or accept the way I live my life. She thinks what I’m doing is wrong and she can’t help but project that. But also, she’s not a perfect person… she, in her beliefs, she’s afraid for me in a sense and so in a sense, I can respect that. I can understand that. But also we have to talk about like “no, mom…” We’re still going to be respectful. We’re still gonna be polite. We’re still going to be courteous because even beliefs or not we treat everybody with kindness. 21:48 JE: Okay, so you think your dad’s kinda before his time pretty much. 21:51 AR: Yeah, before his time. Definitely I would say before his time. He’s just chill, he’s easy going, nothing really gets to him and I feel like [he’s] just more understanding. He’s more open. He’s not caught up with the ways of life or society or the way that we should live our lives. And 8 �he’s just kind of his own man and wants to do his own thing. He’s retired and he likes to watch his sports, have a drink every now and then, and exercise. And that makes him happy. So I think that chillness, that levelness of him, has helped me with coming out, or being out with him. Cause he knows. It’s just not something that we have had to verbally say. 22:39 JE: He lets you do you pretty much. 22:40 AR: Yeah. 22:43 JE: Going back to when you moved to Atlanta. That was pretty much a way for you to reinvent yourself, start over again. 22:47 AR: Yes. 22:48 JE: How’d that feel, not being in that social island that you were in in high school? 22:52 AR: It was freeing. Even in the sense of high school, of being here in Roanoke, small town, I think it still can be cliquish, just anywhere. Still wanting to fit in in certain crowds. [In Atlanta,] I could really choose where I wanted to go, I could really sit back and look at, you know, the lunch room and be like “okay, this is who I would like to share my time with.” And I was able to share my time with a lot of people. I didn’t necessarily know everybody in certain areas or feel like I had to be a part of certain situations because I lived here, or I grew up in this neighborhood, or I identify this way, even. So it was freeing. I met so many different people, so many different nationalities, it was definitely different from growing up and going to [William] Fleming [High School] and actually I graduated from South Gwinnett [High School] in Georgia. It was different. I guess you could say it was definitely different going to a different school, especially coming in on your senior year. That was very hard, meeting people, but I did have… I moved with one of my best friends so she kind of introduced me to people. But with really being able to reinvent myself it was, I think… my best friend I didn’t necissarly like the name of “bisexual barbie” but that’s kinda how she introduced me sometimes, but it gave me kinda range to see how people would respond to it, and I was able to be my own person. I didn’t have to sugar coat anything. I didn’t have to look over my shoulder and see if someone from 5th grade was seeing me kiss this girl and go back and tell everybody about it. So I will say it was freeing and it 9 �definitely boosted my confidence. Gave me a boost in confidence. Living in Atlanta definitely helped me be more out and open here, in Roanoke, I guess you could say, sure. 25:05 JE: That’s good. So, you going out, what was your first social gathering, having fun on the weekends, doing your thing? What do you usually do? 25:12 AR: Okay, so, I host a poetry show called The Speakeasy on 11th Street and we actually just had a show on Friday night. It was called “Black as I Am” and we shared Black stories. On 11th Street right in the Melrose neighborhood where my dad lived, still in a Northwest neighborhood, but right where my dad lived, and where I spent a lot of time. So I like poetry shows. I like anything with lounges and music. I’m not too much of a party person, so you won’t find me at a club. I’m usually asleep by 11 [laughter]. So I’m not a big drinker or anything like that, so I really like spaces where we can actually talk, fellowship, and actually share a space. It could be games, it could be drinks there, I’ll have a drink. I just don’t drink excessively. I like close knit gatherings. I love family and my family is kinda huge. We celebrate birthdays a lot, so that’s once a month, we’ll be out at a restaurant, about 25 of us. So that’s something we do for family. But as for just with myself, with social gatherings, it’s mostly poetry shows, live music. I’m always on one of the campuses at a poetry reading or when a lecture comes, things like that. I like things like that. Anything that’s stimulating. Not too many parties, but with social gatherings just something chill and relaxing for me, where we can actually conversate, have some records playing in the back or something like that. I just like a chill atmosphere. Does that make sense? 27:03 JE: Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. So, how would you say the Speakeasy and poetry and things like this define who you are? 27:09 AR: I believe, with doing this work, I am becoming everything I imagine Ashley could be, growing up. I guess in my own little head I had this picture painted of who Ashley was, who the real Ashley was, and not who I had to show to people and things like that. So, with actually breaking out and getting into poetry and things like that, it makes me feel like I’m becoming the person that I truly desire to be. And I think that definitely matters because, not even just because of my sexuality and how I choose to identify, but just work and everything in life right now that takes the things that we are truly passionate about and happy for away from us, I think that we just really have to focus on the things that matter. 28:08 JE: So, how do you think this poetry affects others and do you use it to affect others? 10 �28:12 AR: I use it to affect others but also because… y’all are here in Roanoke, there’s not too much to do, outside of either going to a club or going to a bar downtown and things like that. I want it to create space for other creators. I want it to create space for other people who didn’t necessarily want to go to the club. I like the hookah lounge, I’ll go there, but even that turns into a little club after 11 o’clock or so, it’s a little too crowded. So I think that, I wanted to create a safe space where people can come out and have good fun. And what I like about the Speakeasy is, I’m 29… well, this time we had it 21 and up for obvious reasons, but we’ll have everyone, of every age group in there, from grandma, to uncle, to sister, to little brother, to little cousin, and I have loved that the most about it. That we can get so many people and that we can be on one chord and one page and that there’s no drama, that there’s no issues, and that we can still relate and share our stories with one another. There’s no age gap there, even though we’re all different ages, there’s no age gap there. I like that. I like that we get to do it on 11th Street. I actually do it at a… I collaborate with Xavier Duckett, whose with The Humble Hustle [Company], but in the space he’s in that used to be a video shop and my family used to own it, so I love even being in that space there. It’s so significant to me, to actually be there and to be able to bring Black events, Black stories, and things back to Roanoke. Especially in Roanoke. I don’t know how much you know about the Gainsboro area and things like that. It’s not too far from the Gainsboro area, right in Melrose, but that was a thriving community. It was over… I don’t want to say the wrong number, but I’ll say 60, I think it’s 70… over 70 Black-owned businesses there. They had a club, they had an ice cream parlor, they had disco spots, they had TV shops, they had every… you know, the [Roanoke] Tribune, and things like that. So, I love downtown and things like that, but there were so many other communities that were thriving and those buildings are still there. So why not still use them? Why not still reach out to those communities, especially those communities where people just drive around to get downtown, but people live there, people enjoy their lives there. And so my goal is to… even though we are on 11th Street and a lot of people are coming from Northwest or Cave Spring or wherever they may be coming from, because they have heard of the event. I want people on 11th Street or in Melrose to be able to walk down the street or to drive by and be like “you know, what’s going on over there?” And they show up next time, and they’ll be able to just “oh, we’ll I’m going down on 11th Street and I’m able to just walk out of my house and trickle on down the block,” and here we are having live music, jazz, and poetry, and storytelling going on. And I think after the show it even went into a cypher, so I think it, it fills me, the community in so many different ways. Honestly, I just love that I know so many artists in this community to be able to put it on and to show people that there’s great things going on in Roanoke, with people who are Black and Brown. 31:53 JE: So you feel like they were really welcoming to you when you first started… 11 �31:57 AR: Yes, very welcoming. I will say, I started with the Speakeasy on 11th, it was a collaboration thing. I kind of went to, with Xavier Duckett, we traveled up to Norfolk and we went to an art show. All types of arts, down to culinary arts, body paint, live canvas painting while we were there and we were like, you know this would be really dope to bring back to our city, like we have… I’ve been a poet for a few years. I’ve met a couple of artists. I started out with Soul Sessions, it’s a poetry group downtown hosted by Harvest Blaque and they’re every other Wednesday. I started out there, so I was able to meet and connect with different people. The only different thing for me was I knew that we could reach the Black community. And I felt like nobody wanted to reach the Black community… Not saying that nobody wanted to reach the Black community, but nobody wanted to say “I want to have Black events.” I want to have Black events in the Black neighborhood, and I want everybody to feel like they can come. I want everybody… I want a white person from Cave Springs or the Grandin area to come over to Melrose where it’s talked less about, I guess, in certain areas, because of different things that are going on in the community. I want them to feel comfortable coming over here and hearing these stories. And even eventually sharing their own because it all matters. It all ties in and I think creating that space to see that actually come to life, it’s been dope, it’s been amazing. 33:32 JE: That’s fantastic. Was there a spotlight on you for being an African American while also being part of the LGBTQ community when you started doing all this? 33:42 AR: Um… 33:44 JE: Are you like a beacon? Do you feel like a beacon for those who feel underrepresented? 33:47 AR: At times. At times, I can feel like a beacon… and I also felt like I, at one point, I had to realise that I just kinda had to embrace it. But I also felt like I had to separate it. I could be a poet here, but I couldn’t identify, I think, personally, I didn’t feel like that I could identify on the LGBTQ spectrum as well, in Roanoke, in this community, where my whole family lives. Where this is just everything that I have known. So I do think for a while that there was a spotlight on me. But I think, I kinda thought, why not take advantage of it. Why not really share my stories, because the LGBT community, especially in the Black community, it’s slim to none. I don’t know anywhere where we can necessarily feel safe and… we’re working on that. We’re working on getting things together, where we can have dinners and things like that, and we can work on things and talk about and share our stories. But yes, I felt like for a while I felt like I had to be a beacon, but also I didn’t feel… I personally felt like I had to separate it. Then, I think that’s way 12 �too much for my anxiety and just my life in general. Even in the sense I was tired of separating myself. I was tired of having to be one way here and one way there. So, I think with being able to just embrace it… I take steps everyday, it’s a process, I take steps everyday. It was just last Tuesday, I was doing a reading at the Franklin County library and I had to, my mom was there, and I’m looking around and it’s just like, “oh, am I gonna do this poem?” Or am I gonna save it? And if I were to save it, it would’ve been because my mom was there. And I know she doesn’t necessarily agree with how I believe and I don’t know if I can say these things in front of her. But I did the poem anyway and that was even my first step of being able to embrace myself and my mom, she didn’t say anything, she said I did a great job and I know she may have still felt someway, but just there in the moment she respected me as a poet and for the person that I was. And that was helpful. So it’s always a process, but I do at times feel like I have had to be that beacon. But, I hope that more people step up. I hope that me being able to share my story and how I grew up will inspire somebody else to share theirs because we all need to know. There’s too many of us. I know you, I see you around town, so I know that there’s a story there. In time… but I believe that as we tell our stories that it will be better for the young girls, or young people coming behind us. To be able to be open about who they are as people. 36:53 JE: That’s fantastic. And also you just like, it’s like a way of gaining respect from those who aren’t really aware of what you go through. So, can you tell me things like, relative to other people who are doing interviews you’re like one of the youngest people here, so could you tell us more about how the internet played a role in, pretty much, your life. 37:13 AR: The internet still plays a major role. I remember our first computer, we ran to the store, I remember it was over where the Advanced Auto is now, I think it was called Circuit City. We ran over to Circuit City, it was still dial up. I didn’t know the internet was going to open us up the way it did there, but it also created a space where people could be other people. People could really say how they were truly feeling without being aware of other people’s situations or the full stories on the other side. So I think the internet, for me, I won’t say it was… it wasn’t as helpful as I would like for it to be. Especially now in 2020, it’s a great tool because we’re able to have so many interviews, we’re able to read so many different articles and that has opened me up. That was definitely… with the internet, social media. I love being able to read someone else’s story, have their whole background and things like that. So I do like it in that instance, but I also think that it’s a horrible place for everyone to fully speak their minds. And I think that we forget that, we get behind a computer and we forget that we’re actually people. That, you know, no, words do hurt, sticks and stone, [but] no, words do hurt and that the biggest thing, we stick with the things that people say to us. Whether it was true or not, with their tone, with the words they chose, and how they said it, so I think that the internet is not, wasn’t the best way for us, for people, to fully express themselves. Just with the backlash that you didn’t know was possible or 13 �coming, I guess you could say. But, now I think that it creates a platform, and I still think that, with the platform it creates, I think that it’s up to us to create that safe space for it. And I think that the internet is helpful. I think that it hasn’t always you know, gave us, you know positivity and things like that, but that’s with everything, and we have to take the good with the bad. But I do think, in the long run, especially with the internet and the age we are in now, that the internet is everything. That’s how we share our stories, that’s how we go to do research and things like that, like how we’re doing this interview now, we’re going to be able to keep this, we’re gonna because of the internet, that it’s always going to be around. And I think that’s what matters, because so much of our history is erased with moves, with fires, with things that just magically happen. I think the internet is going to keep the stories that matter at the forefront. You’re not going to be able to forget about it. You’re just going to be able to type into the search bar and you’re going to be able to look it up and read it and be inspired by it. So it’s had its downfalls and it definitely has caused a lot of tragedy in the LGBTQ community, but I do think that we still have the right and the access to turn that around and make it work for our good as well. So it didn’t work necessarily in one area but it’s gonna work in another and even though we are being attacked in certain ways we’re gonna attack back with the same vices that they use. 41:15 JE: Yeah, often times you see groups of people come into hate another group that’s trying to succeed. Do you think that is more common now than it was before? 41:23 AR: No. I don’t think it’s more common now than it was before. I think that we just have phones and social media to actually record it and that I guess, in a sense, that sadly because it is recorded that more people will believe it in a sense, but I definitely think that it’s not more… not more now. I will say it’s… all hate crimes and things like that definitely has always been happening it’s just that the internet, phones, and social media it makes it very hard to sweep it under the rug especially when it’s out there before you can create a story behind the news. You have to read between the lines and things, so I think that definitely not more, it’s just we were able to see it more. 42:23 JE: True. About hate crimes, have you ever experienced any sort of like discrimination, hatebased, off either like your race or your sexuality or things like that, either like I said from the internet or anything else or even school anything…? 42:38 AR: With sexuality, I wanna say not that I was aware of at the time. I wanna say not that I was aware of at the time. But with… let’s see, with my race I will say the first time I realized I was black was after a lot of things after Trayvon Martin and Eric Garner and things like that going 14 �on… But for me, it was I was rounding the corner and a cop came out of a bank and in that moment I just immediately knew who I was. I immediately knew that I was black. He didn’t do anything to me. He didn’t say anything to me, but I just automatically knew. But besides for you know being called a “nigger” in traffic, I want to say it’s hard for me because I’ve always, to identify with or feel like that I had been discriminated against or things like that, I don’t wanna definitely say I have when I didn’t, but I want to say it was hard for me to identify because I’ve always just loved anybody, and in certain instances I've had to, you know, “they didn’t have my best interest at heart,” but I didn’t see it that way at first. And I don’t want to say it was because I went to a mixed congregation church. I went to Valley Word Ministries growing up, but I knew good white people. I knew, you know, I know good people and things like that in general. So it was hard for… I will say I didn’t necessarily have to go out and face racism and things like that at the forefront until I was of age, of 18 or older, and I think the biggest thing now is even living in Southwest Virginia, working in Southwest Virginia, and working even at times working for the government, and how they, I guess, treat our children or people of color differently. And I do know that for sure, because I have worked in different organizations—the same organization just at different locations—and it differs depending on the zip code and how I handle everything. And that’s one of the reasons why I stepped away from the city and the government because it’s, it’s hard to know that’s how it’s going down and still to be there. So I guess you can say in those instances that explains. 45:25 JE: I understand. Pretty much, do you think we’re getting better when it comes to acceptance of other people’s cultures, identity, and everything, since when you were younger? 45:40 AR: I believe we are getting better. I believe we are getting better. And I will say that for me personally, just from stepping outside of black communities and black culture, that it’s okay to experience, and it’s okay to experience and learn of other cultures. And, I think so. I think we’re getting better, where we’re reading more books, we’re traveling more, we’re getting out in nature more, and things like that. So I definitely think we are doing better. We have a lot of ways to go, and as we all have work to do, and then our work in our progress, but I do think that we are getting better. And I think that, but I also think it’s… if we’re not getting better it’s, I believe… If we’re not getting better as a whole, I think that we’ll have to even break it down into individual case by case because everything starts with one person, that our destiny in this journey is all connected into one another. So my being good to the world is helping your being good to the world. So I believe that it’s an individual case by case but as a people we are getting back to ourselves and our own thoughts. And we’re getting better, so… 47:05 JE: Do you believe that you still have somethings to learn? 15 �47:07 AR: Yes. I have so many things to learn, even a lot within the LGBT communities and the spectrum and things like that, I will say because I didn’t learn a lot of the terms or even anything until I went to college myself. So I had to get out of my community to even realize how other people were addressing things and how that this, you know, is just, it’s just different and other places that you know, everybody doesn’t live in small Southwest Virginia, in the small town in Roanoke. So definitely, I’m learning every day. I’m learning learning every day. It’s always a process. And I think that as I even grow as a person and identify with myself, it’s changing. And I have to do my own research. So I have to go talk to people that I have to… you know, get into therapy to talk about it, to actually process what it is because we can feel it on the forefront. But I think as we said in the black community, we don’t talk about a lot of things so we actually talk about it, not internalize it per se, but actually talk about it, and with being able to talk about it we’re able to learn and move on from that and get over the next step, because if we are… if we can’t move forward we’re just gonna stay backwards. 48:29 JE: So, do you believe like your poetry works as a way of like not internalizing some of these issues that people often do? I guess, an outlet? 48:34 AR: Yes [laughter]. Yes. My poetry is definitely an outlet. I don’t know where I would be without it. Definitely with speaking my truth, we we did a “Love is Love” event and even with creating spaces like that it was, I knew certain questions would be for me at this event, but I knew that we would have to answer questions, and it felt good to identify. It felt good to be open, and exactly who I was and say how, you know, love is different for different people in the community, that I think about taking my girlfriend’s hand downtown a little more than someone else may, but so yes. I think that may answer the question. 49:30 JE: Yeah, it’s all good. That works for me. Okay, so let’s talk about like significant events that occurred like during your upbringing. So, gay marriage legalized, how did that play a role in your life? 49:39 AR: You know, it was for me, honestly, it wasn’t a huge deal for me. Because, like I said, it was something in our community that we didn’t really talk about. So it was something that I, in a sense, [was] just in a condition to think that we wouldn’t get that far in the first place. Or even to think that for me, with the way I was raised and my religious beliefs, that even though that this is, you know, gay marriage and being legalized and everything and things like that, I didn’t necessarily feel like that it was something still that I could do anyway. So it didn’t. To me, it 16 �didn’t apply to me. Now, I think I’m becoming more open into it and as I am approaching three years in a partnership, and we… in just thinking about those type of things. And I think so until now, it really hasn’t really played a part in my life. I guess it took time to fully accept myself and to separate myself from my religious beliefs and take a more spiritual approach. So, excited for it. I was excited for it, supported all my other friends, my friends were happy and things like that, and a lot of people immediately started getting married. Things like that. But for me, it was something that I see them, [I’m] like, “Oh, that's dope. That’s great.” That’s a great strive for history and great steps moving forward. But where I was at the time, it still just wasn’t something that I felt like that I could do. 51:19 JE: Yeah, so less politics more personal feelings? 51:21 AR: Yes. It was more of a personal thing. 51:26 JE: So, a lot of people often talk about assimilation to like, white society or a heteronormative society. How do you fit into that? Do you feel like you went against the norm at certain points or do you feel like you had to assimilate or conform to be more accepted? 51:40 AR: Yeah. I feel like in ways I had to perform to be more accepted, that I guess in the back of your mind that you have to make up for the things that you know that they aren’t going to like about you, or things that they consider to be flaws. So that almost in a sense that I had to project more of myself and show a little bit less of this. So yes, I feel like in ways to adapt, bend, squirm wherever you could fit in to get there. So yes, I do feel like that in certain ways that I had adapt to conform to certain situations. 52:15 JE: do you feel like you had a harder time than other people or do you feel like you had a better time conforming than other people in your community? 52:23 AR: I think I had an easier time performing. I’m easygoing. Growing up, I always kind of cared what other people thought and things like that. So, it was easy to kind of just fall into that line and do what was needed to do to fit in and be safe in a sense. 52:44 17 �JE: Okay, that’s good. So, you feel that you and your peers are more open with who you truly are now than who you were maybe like in the past? 52:53 AR: Yes, um, I will say I had to also find my own peers, find new peers, then necessarily, I guess you can say, people that I grew up going to high school with and things like that. My partner… a year after she graduated in 2010. So we were kind of in the same area and things like that. But tell me the question again, I’m sorry [laughter]. 53:24 JE: What did I ask? 53:24 AR: Were our peers more open? 53:25 JE: Oh yeah were your peers more open? 53:27 AR:So yeah, in certain areas. In certain areas. I will say that we are able to be more open. I wish my peers that I grew up with. I wish I could say… I guess, I wish we had the space together to fully be open together. I feel like in the sense that the peers that I grew up with, we’re kind of just living our different lives and we’re doing our own thing. I don’t know much about their journeys. I know, you know, possibly who they’re dating and things like that. But we don’t have that journey together. So with peers that I met in Georgia and beyond high school, college and things like that, yeah, we’re more open, more open minded to different things. And we’re definitely more open with each other. I definitely would do more with them. But it is my hope to have a more open community within the black community of Roanoke. Because, like I said, I know who you are. I know you are. I believe that we should get together. And I think that it will be… I think it’ll be healing for all of us that we need to know the history here, up here in Roanoke, and how we have become who we are as people, and it matters. 54:48 JE: True. We have a lot more to learn. 54:49 AR: Yeah. So much to learn. 54:51 18 �JE:Yeah. You talk about being a romantic relationship. So, how do you feel about that? How happy are you from where you were? 54:58 AR: I’m happy in my relationship. We’re at our three year mark. We’ve had our ups and downs and especially in Roanoke. We always search for more open community, more friends, more people to actually hang out with. I will say that’s our only downfall of Roanoke, what we really want of events and things to do, and more LGBTQ couples or inclusive people who would be more open to that, I guess you can say. But yeah, we’ve been good. The last three years. Her name is Alexis. We plan to continue to do more events here and create more space in Roanoke for our people, our kind, and to make it a safe space and to just continue to actually bring the arts and culture into the community that we would desperately move to another place for. We want that here. We want to be able to have that at home. I love other places but it’s nothing like home so yeah. That’s where we are. That’s where we are. 56:15 JE: Do you feel like your relationship kind of strengthens your poetry voice? 56:18 AR: Definitely. Definitely my poetry voice, even, especially with hosting and events and things like that. I am definitely a poet. Definitely a creative. My partner is definitely organized, responsible, and not that I’m not responsible, but just more level headed and more task oriented, I guess you could say. So we definitely balance each other out there. And, you know, she never misses an event. I don’t think she’s not heard me speak and it was also pretty cool because when we did meet, I had already been doing poetry in front of her for a couple of years. So, in essence, I kind of felt like she kind of already knew who I was, even if a little bit through my poetry. 57:08 JE: So y’all met through poetry, pretty much? 57:10 AR: We met, we actually met at Soul Sessions. Well, not at Soul Sessions, but she was an audience member at Soul Sessions. I was a poet at Soul Sessions, and we actually live a block away from each other. Where my grandmother, my dad… where my grandmother lived, she grew up a block away from my grandmother all her life. So we’ve always literally almost been a block away from each other. She was working with Macklyn Mosley with the neighborhood and she was doing their background work on some of their events and organization and stuff like that. And we happened to work an event together. We hit it off. We were cool, and I think she messaged me on Facebook one day and asked me if I knew a poet, Elizabeth Acevedo, and I was just like, “yeah, I’ve heard a couple of her poems,” and she was just like, “you know, she’s 19 �gonna be at Longwood [University] and do you wanna go?” And I was just like, “Yeah, sure.” I was like, “I don’t know where Longwood is [laughter], but yeah, sure, I’ll go.” And she was like, “cool. I’ll drive,” and I was just like, “all right.” We drove and we had great conversation down. We went to go see Elizabeth Acevedo. And after that we just really became good friends. And I think that was probably like August, September, and then around February, we were talking and we decided that we liked each other a little more than friends and that we have been hanging out and we wanted to make it official. So we did that. And it’s been three years. We love to travel. Definitely adventures, anything. Live music, street art, good food, sweets, we’re there. If you want to travel with us or anything like that, that’s what we do. And if we’re at a beach I wanna be there all day [laughter]. Yeah, that’s how we met. Um, so she had been hearing my poetry for a while. And I liked it. I knew that she was into poetry. She had been to open mic events and things like that. And we were kind of really just into… [we’re] different people, but into all of the same things. And we kind of hit it off and it’s working. 59:26 JE: Fantastic. So you say you guys met over content on Facebook? So do you believe like social media is kind of like an outlet or pretty much a good tool to use? 59:39 AR: Yeah, it works [laughter]. We would have probably had to wait to another event that we’ve seen each other at. Because we literally didn’t have each other’s numbers. It was easier than having someone play the middleman and say, “Hey, can you get somebody’s number for me?” It worked out and it was honest, genuine, and I think it plays a role. I think it plays a significant role. I know a few people who have got into it with each other right over social media and one of my cousins they live in Florida now, but they just had their…well, I won’t say second child, because it’s a set of twins—they had a little boy and then they had a set of twins and they met off of a Facebook post and it was and then they went in, you know, got into the Messenger and started talking, and I think they were talking for maybe about six months and they decided that they were in love with each other, that they were both heavily in the Christian field and things like that, that they wanted to get married and they’ve been together for about five, six years now. So, and that was just off of six months. So yeah, I think it definitely plays a role. I think that I just… at the “Love is Love” event, Daniel was telling me that he met his wife in Miami and they got each other’s numbers and they accidentally messaged each other or something like that and ended up being on, you know, something on social media, and then actually started talking and they’re married. So yeah, social media, I think you definitely could have a few strange people in your inbox, you know? [laughter] And scale those accordingly. Look through those. But yeah, I think that good things can come from social media. I think good things can come from social media. And at the end of the day, it should be connecting us with different things, different people, organizations, political topics, things that are going on. It connects us. So yeah, I believe good things come from social media. 20 �1:01:45 JE: In general, do you think that just social media is a good way of meeting other people in like your community, LGBTQ people, to meet each other forming relationship and go off to form into bigger groups? 1:01:53 AR: Yes, I think it’s good. Definitely, I think it’s definitely good and I will say personally, for me, I think that there should definitely be a better social media presence because I say, for instance, when I do travel, that’s who I go to, I go to people who are LGBTQ-identified, who live in certain neighborhoods, and I want to know what they’re doing. So those are the neighborhoods, I want to know I can go there because I know it’s safe. Like, I know that I can relax and I know it’s gonna be rainbows and stuff everywhere. And not just… even if it doesn’t have it. I just, that’s what I look for when I travel. When I’m looking for recommendations, you know, different arts or museums or things to visit other places. So, yeah, I definitely think that social media and the LGBTQ spectrum and just in general, around town, social media, yes, I think that would be good for it, definitely, definitely. Definitely to connect us and especially how I was… we were wanting to do dinners and things like that. But just to create another hub another connection, somewhere where we can go comment on each other’s posts, share each other’s pictures, share our own experiences, and next thing you know, you’ve both been at the same restaurant five times in a row and just get a table together like enjoy yourself. So yeah, I believe that it plays a great role. 1:03:16 JE: That’s good. That’s really nice. So, as a poet, do you believe that there are like specific terms that y’all can use that you don’t necessarily hear like outside the poetry community? 1:03:29 AR: Me? Terms? 1:03:31 JE: Terms, phrases, lingo, verbiage… 1:03:38 AR: No. Not for me. I don’t have any right off. I think poets definitely have a certain aesthetic and also we have a certain aesthetic and… just a certain aesthetic. I don’t think that verbiage and anything like that… I know personally, for me, I don’t have a particular line right now in my head, but I’ll use the line over and over again. So you may hear it in one poem here, you may hear in one poem here. So when I’m kind of inspired by something, I stick with it till I’m not 21 �inspired by it anymore. So, it means three different things in three different poems. So that, for me, that’s how I think of myself. 1:04:30 JE: Okay, so final question. What is your goal and dream as an African American person in the LGBTQ community, as a poet, what is your dream for the world? What do you envision the world being like in your in your mind? What do you hope it becomes? 1:04:47 AR: I envision the world being a place where we always have space to reflect, heal, to love people, and for me personally, I would see it as my dream is… And it started off as I didn’t know this would be the dream then that it is now…. But I always dreamed of owning a publishing company. And I want to do a publishing company where we hear from people who are black and brown, people of color, LGBTQ, queer people, everyone, but also have it kind of in a snug little bookstore, huge international publishing company, things like that, but where we can actually have a snug little bookstore and we can actually do readings and share experiences right together because even though everything is global and things like that, it’s the intimate moments that matter and that will reach the world. We have internet and everything so far. So I think that route is still using the publishing company of Rare Press to create those realistic authentic stories that we truly need in the world today. 1:06:02 JE: We really need stuff like that, too., 1:06:04 AR: And if we don’t write about it, we won’t know, so we have to write our history and we have to write the real history. So I want to help facilitate that and create that platform. 1:06:18 JE: Alright. Thank you. 1:06:19 AR: Thank you. 1:06:20 JE: I appreciate you sharing everything you’ve shared with us. You’ve really improved the world just by speaking your mind, telling us your story. 1:06:26 22 �AR: Thank you. I appreciate that for having me, for even just inviting me to share my oral history. It's helped me think about so many different things and so much of what I truly still want to learn, so I appreciate you. 1:06:39 JE: Thank you. 1:06:40 AR: Thank you. [END] 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Ashley Rhame Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Ashley Rhame Interviewer: Julian Edwards Interviewee: Ashley Rhame Date: 23 February 2020 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College, Salem, Virginia Total Duration: 66:45 Transcription prepared by: Julian Edwards, Saja Alexander, and Sophia Morales Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2020 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ashley Rhame, Julian Edwards, Saja Alexander, Sophia Morales Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RhameAshley Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Michael Blankenship Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Michael Blankenship Interviewer: Monica Taft Interviewee: Michael Blankenship Date: 21 February 2020 Location: Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, 301 Patton Avenue, Roanoke, Virginia Total Duration: 75:38 Transcription prepared by: Monica Taft, Kayla Coursey, and Thomas Ziegenmeyer. Note: Transcription and audio must be accessed on site in the Virginia Room. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 21 February 2020 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael Blankenship, Monica Taft, Kayla Coursey, Thomas Ziegenmeyer Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All Rights Reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlankenshipMichael Access Rights Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies. The transcription and audio of this oral history is restricted to use in the Virginia Room only. Material cannot be accessed online. https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5822/JonesToya.mp3 fd648e210ce54ff226843a53194b043d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5822/JonesToya.1.pdf 06ef848be04143eead2d917aa4ffcba9 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Toya Jones March 21, 2021 Interviewer: Alexis Ebbrecht Interviewee: Toya Jones Date: March 21, 2021 Location: online via Zencastr Transcribed by: Tatiana Cherry-Santos, Caitlin Sharkey, Dylan Sheck, and Mary Rose Stark Total Duration: 55:30 Index: 0:00 = childhood in Roanoke, Virginia (1977-1980s) 3:17= relationship with parents; work ethic 4:20= perspective on how Roanoke has changed since her childhood 5:15= coming out at age 21 (c. 1998); making gay friends 10:00 = leaving the Pentecostal Church; intersection of growing up religious and being gay 15:50= parents’ response to coming out letter; friendships in the LGBTQ+ community; balancing identity between friends and family (late 1990s) 25:02= involvement in Roanoke LGBTQ+ community 26:20= starting a small business (late 2000s-2010s); moving the business downtown (late 2010s) 31:42= travel experiences; memories from travels 36:13= intersection of identities; being Southern and gay; anti-gay harassment in Roanoke (early 2000s) 42:04= decision to stay in Roanoke, Virginia 44:49= realizing she was ‘different’ in second grade; experiences in fourth grade and in ninth grade (1980s) 52:10= trials faced while being a business owner 53:34= support systems; family importance 0:00 Alexis Ebbrecht: Alright...and can you still hear me? 0:04 Toya Jones: I can. Yes. 1 �0:06 AE: Wonderful. Okay… The following interview was conducted with Toya Jones on behalf of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project. It is 4:11 on March 21, 2021 and we are meeting virtually via Zencastr. The interviewer is Alexis Ebbrecht. So, starting from I guess the very beginning, Toya, could you tell me about your childhood and where you grew up? 0:38 TJ: Uh yes. I grew up mostly here in Roanoke, Virginia. As a child, we moved away to Virginia Beach for a little bit, but it was only for about 3-4 years and then we ended up back here in Roanoke, Virginia so for the most part, I am from, Roanoke, Virginia. And as a child, I mean I’ve had, you know, a pretty good childhood for the most part. Lots of good memories. 1:17 AE: What’s one of, like, the best memories from your childhood? 1:21 TJ: Oh wow [chuckles], there’s so many of them. Um, I would say, probably, you know, as a child we all stayed active outside, and we grew up with a big family, even though there was five in my immediate family, my grandmother had nine kids, and then those kids, you know, so there was a total of thirteen grandkids. So, I just remember summers playing, you know, with my cousins outside until the streetlights came on and and catching lightening bugs and all that kind of good stuff. But, also too, you know as a family we would take family vacations every year to different locations. So, pretty good memories. 2:17 AE: Yeah. Would you say then the relationship with your parents and just your whole family was pretty positive? 2:24 TJ: Yeah it was, for the most part. I mean, you know, my parents were married, now divorced, but they were married [for] 35 years. But they didn’t get divorced until well after we graduated, you know, all of us graduated from high school. But, for the most part, yes. I grew up in a working-class family, you know, my mom went to work everyday and my dad was selfemployed. So, for the most part yeah we were pretty normal. 3:08 AE: [Laughter] So, did the fact that your parents both worked, do you think that influenced you wanting to be a business owner, and like wanting to stay in Roanoke? 3:17 TJ: Um, I don’t know. It’s weird because like people that I went to school with are surprised to see that I am still in Roanoke [laughter]. They thought that I would have moved away to a bigger city because I am drawn to bigger cities. I’ve tried to get away every chance I get to larger cities. Um, but yeah, I mean I guess. You know, I’ve always had a really good work ethic. I don’t know where that came from, but I guess I could even label myself as a workaholic, which is a good thing and it could be a bad thing as well. But, you know, I’ve always worked for health 2 �management positions with different companies until I decided to start working for myself. So, for the most part I’ve always had a good work ethic. 4:20 AE: And, since you did grow up in Roanoke, I feel like you could give us a bit of a unique perspective on how you think Roanoke has changed the most throughout your years here. 4:29 TJ: Hmm…It’s slowly progressing, I think. I feel like it should be a lot farther along than what it is. But I definitely think it’s slowly progressing. Especially when it comes to the LGBTQ group. I’m just thinking back like on some little incidents that I, you know, came across when I was younger versus the acceptance now. So, I definitely think that Roanoke has definitely progressed. For sure. 5:15 AE: And when did you start to form and accept your identity, like, within Roanoke or how do you think that that impacted your identity? 5:26 TJ: Um, it’s one of those things I’ve always known, like I know people say this all the time but like I’ve always known that there’s something, you know, different about me. But you know, of course, at such a young age you can’t really label it, or you don’t know what it is, you just know that you feel different. But… I’m sorry, what was your main question about that? 5:56 AE: Just how do you think that living in Roanoke City came to help you accept or form your identity? 6:04 TJ: Honestly, I can’t really say that Roanoke has helped me form my identity. I just live my life, you know, I mean I surround myself around supportive people, and even when I was in high school I didn’t really feel like I had that support system, but it wasn’t until I was 21 where I actually started to… that’s actually when I came out to my parents as well but it wasn’t until 21 when I actually started realizing that, you know, there’s people like me. And that’s when, you know, I met people and became friends with them and it kinda just like progressed from there really. But, I can’t say that Roanoke has helped form my identity. 7:09 AE: How did you begin… I know you said that you have found friends that relate to you and your experiences, how did you begin to find that community, to kind of help you feel a positive attitude? 7:21 TJ: It was mostly through work. Like I said, when I was in high school, it was kinda like one of those subjects that were not talked about, and now it’s definitely changed for sure. But, yeah, just through work. I remember specifically, when I was working at a customer service job and I 3 �met—we’ve been friends for like 25 years—but I met this particular person and we immediately became, like, the best of friends and, you know, he was gay and I was gay and we formed that bond and, you know, just doing things or going places where we could feel comfortable. We would go to like the night clubs and stuff like that in the area. But yeah, just basically finding friends at wok that could relate. 8:35 AE: Mhm. When did you start building this community that you’ve made for yourself? 8:41 TJ: You know it really wasn’t until—it probably was around when I was 20 years old. It was just really weird. It was like, you know, I grew up in also a very religious household, so, and [I’m] not sure if you’re familiar with Pentecostal Holiness but that’s what my mom was, so I grew up in the church environment and a very strict upbringing when it comes to religion. [They] were very strict and so I feel like, yeah … we just had a very strict upbringing when it comes to religion and so it wasn’t until I was 20 [or] 21 until I was able to really start to be myself. But that was also, too, then a couple years after I decided to leave the church, as well, that I was raised in. So, I think that kinda like helped me along to come into myself. 10:00 AE: What was kind of the tipping point of why you chose to leave the church that you grew up in? 10:07 TJ: Well, as a Pentecostal Holiness, you know, there was evangelists, they believed in speaking in tongues and, you’ll have to—if you’re not familiar with it you’ll definitely have to research it. But you know, as far as the upbringing in the religion itself, like you know, we weren’t supposed to wear anything ‘pertaining to a man’ because that’s what they said the Bible said. They didn’t want us to get our ears pierced. You know, you couldn’t wear make up, which I never had a problem with that anyway because I’m not that kind of girl, but, you know, the thing that really, I think, caused me to feel so out of place is because the women couldn’t wear pants. Like, you had to wear dresses and of course they had to be ankle length, you know, below the knees. So, there’s a lot of strict dress codes and beliefs and things like that, that when I turned 18, I was like ‘yeah I gotta go.’ 11:30 AE: So, can you talk more about, like, the intersection of growing up in a very religious household and that not really allowing you to express yourself in the way that you wanted? 11:45 TJ: Yeah, it was really hard. It was definitely hard. First and foremost, like, you know, the pastors, the preachers would speak against homosexuality so much, to where it was like that alone made me feel uncomfortable. And like I said, I grew up in the church. I attended it until I was probably about 18 years old, but that alone, preaching against homosexuality, like Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, and it wasn’t even just Sundays it was like, we attended church on Sundays, we went to Sunday school and then we had day service on Sunday and then we had 4 �night service on Sunday and then on Tuesdays and Thursdays we had service. But then also there was like 12’oclock prayer that, during the summertime, you know, [we] would be forced to go to, so it was like everything was like church, church, church and of course hearing the pastor screaming out, you know, clear to me in a very derogatory term, it was definitely hard for me to even try to be myself in an environment like that. 13:19 AE: Yeah, I’m sure it was. How did you learn to accept yourself as who you are and like how you want to express yourself? 13:36 TJ: Yeah, it was just one day, it was just one day. You know, I was actually working at…let’s see… I was actually an office manager at a job for the government. And funny story is my mom actually worked there as well. I was the office manager and my mom worked in a different department, and there was one woman there who [laughter] was clearly gay, and we had different conversations about it. You know, about life in general. She kind of understood me and, you know, she knew—obviously she was much older than I was at the time, but she kind of probably knew what I was going through or what I was experiencing. It was just a mutual thing like, we were really friendly, she was very friendly, and I remember one day I hadn’t even come out yet, but one day, she brought me this magazine and it was an Out magazine for gay and lesbian people, and she just handed it to me. And I remember specifically a couple weeks later, I was like, you know I was tired of hiding, I was tired of lying to myself, I was tired of lying to my family, and so it was just one day, it just hit me and I was like, you know, I can’t do this anymore. And I wrote a letter to my parents and left it on their pillow, and I went to stay with a friend for a couple of days to see how they would respond to it and that was my coming out letter. 15:50 AE: How did they respond to it? 15:52 TJ: Um, it was definitely not what I expected. I’ve always felt like, you know, for some reason and I don’t know maybe it’s just kind of like my upbringing, I was felt like it was harder, you know. You know, I had a lot of Caucasian friends and I kind of, I would spend a lot of time with them, at and in their households, and when they came out to their parents, you know, their parents were so accepting of them, and it was kind of like nothing changed. You know, it was great, but I always had this fear that my parents just would not accept me. You hear stories of like people, you know, parents kicking their kids out or just like disowning them, which I’ve had a few friends whose parents disowned them as well. But yeah, I mean it was definitely different. They didn’t respond how I thought they would. My mom never mentioned a single thing about [it], even ‘til this day, and this was like 22 years ago, my mom has never mentioned a single thing about that coming out letter to me, and I kind of felt hurt because I thought out of all people that she would come to me and try to have that conversation with me. Instead, it was my dad. I was a little more close to my mom than my dad, but instead, it was my dad that called me, after receiving the letter and said, you know, “whenever you’re ready to come home and talk, let’s talk.” And, then I went home a couple days later, and we went down to his office, and, you 5 �know, he basically said, “I just want you to know that I love you, I’m gonna love you regardless.” And that was kind of really all he kind of did, you know, “well what made you decide that you want to be this way?” Of course, you know, he didn’t understand it, but I kind of explained to him that nothing happened, or I just didn’t decide that I want to be this way, but the conversation was had, and he basically said, “I love you regardless,” and that was kind of it, like they never really talked about that particular letter again. And it still to this day my mom, like I said, she’s never mentioned that letter at all. 18:57 AE: Wow. Do you wish that she would have responded to it? 19:01 TJ: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. I mean, I feel like, you know, we’ve always been a close family, and so like I think any response would’ve been a good one at that point. It was just weird that my dad was the one that had that conversation with me because I was so close to my mom and I felt like, I would’ve loved to have heard that from her. But yeah, I feel like any response would’ve been a good response at that point. Just to have the conversation and have it open and for discussion. 19:51 AE: Do you think that was kind of like the turning point within your own life? Like, how did that response from your parents and being able to come out to them, how did that change you and your ability to kind of accept being gay and…? 20:11 TJ: It was mainly because, you know, I just think when you just reach a certain [point]… I think everyone is different, you know? I still have some friends, that still have not come out to their parents and, you know, they’re like 30 [to] 35 years old. But I think just everyone is different. I feel like, you know, every person’s story is different, and of course every family is going to respond differently, so you can’t… I don’t know, I don’t know, I just… sorry, I feel like that I’m sitting here rambling. I’m so sorry, I’m rambling, and I forgot the question. I’m so sorry. [laughter] What was the question? 21:11 AE: [laughter] Oh you are okay. 21:14 TJ: I’m so sorry what was the question again? [laughter] 21:16 AE: [laughter] I think you kind of answered it, throughout it, but it just [was] kind of how that experience, like with your parents, kind of made you come to terms with yourself. Just… 21:33 6 �TJ: Yeah, yeah. I just think I was ready. I was again just tired of lying, tired of pretending to be someone that I was not. And again, like I said, I think everyone has their own time, and I guess that was just my time, you know? 22:03 AE: At that point in your life, did you have any friends in the LGBTQ community? 22:12 TJ: When I came out yes, I did. Then through work, and through their friends, and then meeting more friends within the community it kind of grew from there, and it definitely made it a lot easier to have, you know, that supportive group of friends that kind of understood you, you know? So, yes. 22:43 AE: Did you come out to your friends before you came out to your parents? 22:48 TJ: [laughter] Oh yeah, they knew. Yeah, they knew. So, it wasn’t like I didn’t really have to come out to… I be honest with you I’ve never really [laughter] had to come out to any of my gay friends because like they just knew, it was clear [laughter]. 23:05 AE: Mhm [laughter]. So, like, going from one comfortable environment with your friends and then going to your parents’ house? Like, did you notice anything about you that would like change or like the way that you would carry yourself? 23:28 TJ: You know, I would be a little more careful around my nieces and nephews, but other than that, you know, I didn’t really change much. I just think people just… the more they come into themselves the more they find themselves, and then they change that way, but as far as like, you know, of course I would never… It wasn’t probably until a couple years later until I actually brought a girl to meet my parents. But, as far as like my change in character, or anything like that, I didn’t really change much. I just, I did kind of like try to keep that part of my life away from like my nieces and nephews because I didn’t want… you know, and the way that my parents thought, some people think that if you touch someone you’ll be gay or it can rub off on you or it’s contagious and so, you know, like I would have things like that, you know, in my mind so I kind of like, I definitely tried to hide that part of my life from my nieces and nephews when they were younger. But other than my character change, I didn’t really change too much. 25:02 AE: Would you say that you’re very involved within the LGBTQ community within Roanoke? 25:12 TJ: Um, not as much as I would like to be. You know, when I came out I was very, very, very gay and like I attended all of the pride events and like everything they had gay related or LGBT I was there, but, you know, life happens and then I started working for myself, and then of course 7 �that takes a lot of time and then before you know it’s just kind of like, it’s just basically work, work, work, work, work. So, no, currently, I am not actively involved in a lot of LGBT things. 25:59 AE: Yeah, and it sounds like work is really important to you, so would you mind like sharing a little bit, you know, with how you got started with your business and how you got started like being so involved within your working life? 26:20 TJ: Yes, I started working for myself about 12 years ago, it’s been 12 years, and I had the dream of opening a coffee shop, owning a coffee shop slash bookstore, and, you know, I tried opening a coffee shop 12 years ago and it kind of, the economy was like really, really horrible, and, so, I failed, you know, and I had to close it down. But then I opened a property maintenance company. I still had that dream, you know, that goal that I was trying to achieve. So, I actually opened a property maintenance company, and I picked up some contracts from a lot of real estate companies here in the area, and that caused my business to grow, and with that business, I purchased a food truck. And we won a lot of really nice platinum awards with that so, I’ve had that for about five years. And so then from the food truck, I then decided to try [a] brick and mortar location again, and so that landed me to Morning Brew Coffee. I’m going in my fifth year of running a coffee shop. 27:55 AE: And is that in downtown Roanoke? Your coffee shop? 27:59 TJ: It is. Yes. I started out in Roanoke County, and then, I was presented an opportunity to move into the downtown Roanoke location, so my coffee shop is located inside of the Taubman Museum of Art. 28:12 AE: Very cool. Kind of why did you get started, or why did you choose to locate your business in downtown, did it just kind of happen or was it targeted for that area? 28:25 TJ: Well, you know, I was actually against it for most of the time because I would see a lot of coffee shops. I am an avid coffee shop hopper so anytime, any chance I get whether it’s here locally or away, that’s like one of my favorite things to do is just like check out indie coffee shops. But you know, there’s been a lot of coffee shops that came into the downtown Roanoke area that failed and so for me, I was always against the idea of trying to put my coffee shop in downtown Roanoke, so it just happened by coincidence really. One of my food truck fans that would frequent my food truck every weekend came to me and was like, ‘Hey I know of a space in downtown Roanoke that—her mom was actually a volunteer with the museum—and they are trying to get it filled. Would you be interested or consider moving to downtown Roanoke?’ And it was a really hard decision, you know. I thought about it for weeks and weeks, actually until probably a month, and I finally decided to meet with the museum director and have that 8 �conversation, meeting after meeting after meeting. It wasn’t [until] then that I finally decided to give it a shot. 30:18 AE: Would you say that that’s kind of your biggest accomplishment in your life, is starting this business for yourself? 30:27 TJ: Yeah, I mean it’s definitely one that I’m proud of. You know, we didn’t grow up rich by any means, we were just a middle-working class family. But yeah, because it was the ultimate goal. Well, the ultimate goal was to have a coffee shop with a bookstore inside of it, but it was the ultimate goal and just to be able to achieve that. I think that it actually exceeded my expectations like being here—the museum that my business is housed in, it’s like a 66-million-dollar architectural project and it’s actually one of the most expensive buildings in downtown Roanoke. Did I ever imagine myself being here? No, but, you know, I’m here and I would say that it’s definitely a major accomplishment [and] achievement for me. 31:42 AE: I know you mentioned earlier in the interview that you liked to travel. Do you travel a lot for work you would say? 31:49 TJ: No, I don’t travel a lot for work. I wish that I did. Yeah, mostly my traveling has been with my family, but I do like to frequent bigger cities from time to time. I have a hobby of writing, so I do like to get away for that so a lot of times I have my favorite little locations I will travel to, to write. But as far as work related, when I worked for other companies, yes, I would travel a lot to have to go to meetings and stuff, but right now like traveling [for] work basically consists of just seeing what’s out there. Seeing, you know, studying other coffee shops. Seeing what works for them and possibly checking the market, the retail and commercial market in other locations. I would like to expand one day. 33:10 AE: Can you name any or a couple of places that you really like to travel to? 33:17 TJ: Well, my favorite—you know, they’re not very far away. It’s kind of like my little home away home. Charlottesville, Virginia is like my little go to place when I need to get away from Roanoke. It’s not a very long road trip so I like to go to Charlottesville, Virginia, just hang out in their downtown little civic mall area. They have a lot of cool coffee shops there that I like to visit, just sit and write or I’ll catch up on emails from work or do paperwork and stuff like that. So, Charlottesville, Virginia is my little home away from home. I do like Virginia Beach, too; Virginia Beach is a nice little gateway. It’s a little bit longer drive, but it’s definitely worth it. 34:13 AE: Do you have any standout memories from your travels? 9 �34:19 TJ: Not really. You mean as a kid or…? 34:27 AE: Just anytime, like anything that you can remember that’s kind of like a core memory for you? 34:35 TJ: I will say, I am definitely looking forward to… like I got my passport for the first-time last year, so it’s been one of the things on my bucket list to do and I finally was able to get my passport before the pandemic hit. So, I definitely am looking froward to using that. I have never travelled outside the country at all, so I definitely have plans to do that. But as far as like travelling, places like Atlanta, D.C. I will say that Atlanta probably stands out the most. But it was a family trip that we decided to take, to Atlanta, it was like mid-July. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Atlanta in July, but it was like 120 degrees. It was so miserable and like my Dad was wanting to see the stadium—the baseball stadium—and all these places. And here we are, walking the streets in Atlanta and it’s like 120 degrees, it was just so hot. I will never forget that, but were we also able to do some stuff, like see the house that Martin Luther King grew up in as a child and we were able to do some stuff like that. That memory stands out a lot. 36:13 AE: I feel as if you hold a lot of identities, being a business owner, being gay, growing up religious—now not so much anymore—but like the intersection of that all, do you have anything to add onto that… like how all those identities have kind of come together for you? 36:41 TJ: You know, it’s just the ultimate goal is to be happy. And you can’t… you’re right, I am African American, I am female, I am a business owner, I am gay, so I feel like I have like all of these things, kind of like these hurdles. But ultimately in the end, I’m a people person even though I don’t want to be. It’s weird. I am an introvert, like hardcore. I’m a very shy person and I always end up working in the public eye and so it’s just so weird how that all happened. But it’s just like the ultimate goal is: life is too short you have to be happy. I believe in self care, like the older I get you have to take care of yourself and everyone doesn’t know what’s best for you. You just have to kind of like step out there and be you. Yeah, I don’t hide it, I don’t hide me being gay. I’m very open with it. But you just have to be yourself. I’ve just basically reached that point where like I’m all about my business and being happy and those things are the most important things to me right now. 38:35 AE: Thinking, you know, you grew up in Roanoke, it’s kind of the South in a way. Do you think that has impacted you at all? 38:46 TJ: Yeah, because in visiting cities like D.C. or larger cities in northern Virginia, D.C., Dupont Circle. Dupont Circle is this whole gay community in D.C., and I would frequent there. But yeah, it definitely has impacted me in a small way growing up in the South and being gay. If I 10 �have time, it reminds me of a story of my very first serious girlfriend. We dated for six years, but we were actually holding hands in one of the shopping malls in Roanoke and a security guard— keep in mind this is like in the early 2000s—and a security guard approached us and he said, ‘Hey you can’t do that,’ and we looked at each other and were like, ‘Do what?’ And he’s like, ‘You cannot do that,’ and he pointed down to our hands. And he told us, you know, my girlfriend at the time was Vietnamese and of course I’m Black. And he pointed down to our hands and he said, ‘You can’t do that,’ and he was implying that we were not allowed to hold hands. And I’m [a] pretty cool, laid back, calm person—like I said I am really shy, easy going. I wasn’t expecting my at the time girlfriend, it kind of like really set her off the wrong way. And she was from D.C., so she wasn’t really used to that either. But yeah, just things like that. Growing up in the South and being in Roanoke, it’s definitely a lot different, even from cities just four hours away in northern Virginia. It has definitely kind of like opened my eyes to a lot. 41:12 AE: Yeah, I’m sure it has. That’s horrible. 41:16 TJ: Yes, it was weird. It was a very weird situation. 41:20 AE: Yeah, would you say that Roanoke has gotten better in terms of acceptance? 41:27 TJ: Yeah, I think so. Oh definitely, I think so. Oh, for sure. Yeah, because now I have friends that have kids. They are same-sex couples that have adopted kids from foster care and then into final adoption. So, I definitely think that Roanoke has definitely progressed for sure. We do have a long way to go, we really have a long way to go, but we have definitely come a long way if that makes sense. 42:04 AE: So, what kind of made you decide that you wanted to stay in Roanoke, I guess, like, what are some of your favorite things in Roanoke or about Roanoke? 42:17 TJ: You know, I guess, Roanoke is like... It’s nice to get away, like I’ve tried living in D.C. and I’ll be honest with you even though I love visiting bigger cities, I love to get away. I actually tried living in D.C. I tried moving there with my girlfriend at the time and I cried. I literally cried. And she’s like, “What wrong with you?” and I’m like, “I wanna go home.” And so, we finally moved back here to Roanoke. It’s nice to get away, but Roanoke does that, you know, it’s a smaller city, but it’s not too small. It kind of reminds me of Charlottesville in a way. It’s kind of one of those things, the people are nice for the most part. And I’m sure any place you go to has its pros and cons, but for the most part I do like the area. I live in the downtown area so I can walk to work if I want to, ride my bike to work. I kind of like the whole ambiance, it’s definitely progressing, Roanoke is definitely progressing for sure. 43:30 11 �AE: Would you say that your identity as a gay woman is kind of, like, a defining feature for you and your life or do you think is more of an afterthought? 43:40 TJ: You know, there was a time when I was like… it’s nice to not be able to hide it. So, you know, every chance I get, I don’t go screaming “hey, I’m gay, I’m gay,” you know? But I don’t hide it. You know, I hid it for so long—well, long enough—to where it was to the point to where, like... it’s weird, it’s kind of an afterthought, you know? ‘Cause like, it’s just, I am who I am, but at the same time, I mean, it does kind of define you in a way. 44:31 AE: Yeah. I know you mentioned the story earlier about one of your coworkers, like, handing you that magazine, but when did you kind of start to realize that, you know, your identity was a lot different than the people around you? 44:49 TJ: Oh, gosh. Honestly? I was in second grade and I had… I could say it was a crush now. I didn’t really know what it was back then, but I was in second grade and I was just, like, you know, I had this crush on my teacher. It was so strange, and I know you say, “it’s just second grade,” but, like, I remember looking at her, and being like “oh my gosh, she’s so pretty” and I would volunteer, like, pass out papers, I would always be the one to volunteer. Like, raise my hand to help pass out papers or collect papers and do little stuff, it was so weird. Now that I think about it, it’s really kinda weird [laughter], but yeah. I was in second grade and I remember, like now thinking, you kinda think “am I supposed to be, like, feeling this way?” And, of course, you don’t know anything about, you know, sexual identity back then. Like, at that young age, but it was in second grade when I had this crush on my second-grade teacher and from there I just knew that there was something different about me. Like, I knew that I was attracted to girls. Like, you know, even in elementary school and middle school and, yeah, I just always knew. So, second grade was my first memory of, like, feeling different. 46:41 AE: And when, like, how soon after that [was it] when you started to, like, realize, more that it was, for sure? Was it in second grade or was it after? 46:56 TJ: No, it was probably… I was in, I went to Huff Lane Intermediate School, so it was… No, I’m sorry, it was Virginia Heights, in Virginia Heights Elementary School. We went on a field trip to the planetarium. Which, well I don’t even think it exists anymore, but it was here in downtown Roanoke and there was this girl who, you know, asked if she could sit beside me on the way to the field trip and I was like, “yeah, that’s fine.” So, we sat beside each other on the bus going to our field trip. So, we got into the planetarium and I think this was, like, fourth grade. So, we got into the planetarium and then she’s like, “you wanna pretend like,” I don’t remember the term that she used, it wasn’t boyfriend/girlfriend, but she’s like “you wanna pretend like we’re a couple?” And so, you know, I’m so shy, and I’m still shy. So, but yeah, she was like, “let’s hold hands” and I remember, like, holding hands in this planetarium and then I knew that, of course, it felt a lot different from second grade to fourth grade, but then I knew 12 �that, okay, you know, “I think this girl’s cute” and so, it became a little bit more than that. And then it wasn’t until my freshman year in high school when I actually experienced, you know, girls hitting on me and, so yeah. It wasn’t really until my, I guess, freshman year of high school when I actually knew for a fact that, “okay, I am gay, this is who I am.” 49:19 AE: Do you think from, like, second grade to your freshman year of high school, why do you think it took so long to come to that realization? 49:30 TJ: Well, you know, a lot of things. You know, again, like, my strict upbringing in the church. You know, these were thoughts that always were feelings that I had to suppress because, like, growing up in a church that preached against it and condemned you to Hell for having those thoughts. I think that probably aided in it. But yeah, I mean, that’s the only thing I can think of why it took me so long to finally, to say, “oh, this is who I am.” So, I get it. I mean, and too, I will say my uncle was also a teacher at my junior high school as well as my high school, so I didn’t really want anything getting back to him, because I would always be afraid that he would then, like, tell my mom, you know, tell my family. So, I think that was part of it too. 51:02 AE: Can you think of any, like, defining moments, since at that point in your life ‘til now, like, any defining moments that kind of… I know you said your goal in life is to be happy, so is there any moments that just, like, bring you a lot of happiness? 51:15 TJ: Just in general? 51:17 AE: Yeah. 51:21 TJ: Yeah, I mean, like, just my accomplishments. I’ll say again, I know I mentioned I’m a workaholic, but, you know, one day I would like to not be able to work so much and be able to separate, and have a little balance, you know? Or being able to step away from working so much to actually, you know, doing more things that I enjoy doing. But, yeah, I mean defining moments is just, like, where I came from and to where I am now, is just, in general, like a big achievement for me. 52:10 AE: Yeah. Do you have any or can you think of any trials that you have faced as a business owner through your years? 52:20 TJ: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, everything is a trial as a business owner. Just, the risks, the risk that you take, in general. You definitely have to have, I think, a strong backbone for it and you definitely have to have the will to wanna be in it. You know, I mean, just a business owner 13 �in general is… it’s a trial, but, you know, you just have to surround yourself with people who believe in you and believe in the dream, that definitely helps a lot, you know. Again, to have a support system of people who actually believe in your dream just as much as you do. Granted, no one is gonna want it as much as you, but, like, at the same time, it’s good to surround yourself with a group of people that definitely believes in the dream as well. 53:34 AE: Would you say your support system is, like, both your family and your friends? Or is one kind of more important than the other? 54:06 TJ: I think, you know, family is definitely a good support system. You know, like my nephew. He’s been working for me for seven years and, you know, and I do have a good support system, you know, with my sister and my nieces and and nephews, so yeah, like, I mean, I think that it’s important. Yeah, family is definitely important to have as a support system, but, also too, people don’t always have that and so, just because it’s not blood doesn’t mean it’s not family. You know what I mean? So, just a good support system, in general, to me. It doesn’t matter if it’s you’re family or friends just as long as your support system is strong. 55:01 AE: Well, I guess our time is almost up, is there anything else that you would like to add before we end this interview? 55:08 TJ: No, I can’t think of anything else. 55:12 AE: Okay, well then, thank you so much for being a part of this recording. 55:19 TJ: Yeah. 55:20 AE: Yep, thank you. 55:23 TJ: ... for allowing me to be. [END] 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Toya Jones Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Toya Jones Interviewer: Alexis Ebbrecht Interviewee: Toya Jones Date: 21 March 2021 Location: Online via Zencastr Duration: 55:30 Transcription prepared by: Tatiana Cherry-Santos, Caitlin Sharkey, Dylan Sheck, and Mary Rose Stark Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 21 March 2021 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Toya Jones, Alexis Ebbrecht, Tatiana Cherry-Santos, Caitlin Sharkey, Dylan Sheck, and Mary Rose Stark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JonesToya https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5823/LoweryCatina.mp3 8db083fb2da5038b5f7dc8490fa1d768 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5823/LoweryCatina.1.pdf 3dbaea3b826b66fe52e5c0b166aaf301 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Catina Lowery March 24, 2021 Interviewee: Catina Lowery Interviewer: Alexis Mattson Date: March 24, 2021 Location: interview conducted remotely over Zencastr Duration: 59:49 Transcription prepared by: Lucy Perry 0:00 = Childhood in Christiansburg (1972-1980s); experiencing racism in the public school system 11:30 = the intersectionality of discrimination experienced by Black lesbian women (race, gender, and sexuality) 13:34 = Her parents’ experiences in Southwest Virginia at mid-century; history of the Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Black communities in Southwest Virginia 19:22 = Racism within the LGBTQ Community; experiences in Chicago working for Lambda Legal 24:30 = Marriage Equality as a white people’s issue; racism within Lambda Legal 28:00 = LGBTQ coalition politics with Black and women’s movements; failure to adopt intersectional approach 30:28 = Volunteer work in Chicago; moving back to Southwest Virginia in 2009; trying to connect with a gay community here 34:00 = Moving back to Christiansburg in 2009; commentary on the Charlottesville riots (2017), white supremacy, and emotional labor 42:21 = commentary on the U.S. Capitol riot (2021); how to overcome white supremacy and racism 48:10 = the dominance of white gay men in the LGBTQ Community 55:36 = Differences between Chicago and Christiansburg, dating in Chicago (2000-2009) 59:11 = Closing thoughts 00:00 AM: Today is March 24th, 2021, and I’m here with Catina Lowery who I will be interviewing as a part of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ Oral History Project. Thank you so much for being here today and contributing to our project. Typically, these interviews tend to be in person… 00:20 CL: Yeah, thank you for inviting me! 00:22 AM: Yeah [laughing] no problem. These interviews tend to be in person, but understandably this year due to COVID-19 there’s been some reasonable precautions… we are going to be remote 1 �this year. It would have been nice to meet you in person and hopefully we can in the future. But I want to go ahead and get started, with asking you about your upbringing in Virginia. Were you born and raised here? 00:45 CL: I was born and raised in Christiansburg. 00:52 AM: Alright sounds good. Where did you go to school? 00:55 CL: Did you hear that? 00:56 AM: Oh, yeah yeah. 01:00 CL: Okay, I’m sorry. Where did I go to school? Alright, let’s see… I graduated through the Christiansburg system, so primary school, middle sch ool, high school. Then college level, my freshmen year I went to DePaul University out in Chicago, Illinois. Then I transferred to Virginia Tech. I was at Tech for about, uh, a few years… and we can go into why I left Tech… not gay related, more color related. Then I moved out to Chicago from there and I finished up my degree at North Park University in Chicago. Two degrees, I have a master’s degree too. 01:49 AM: Oh wow, so lots of moving around between Chicago and Virginia, it sounds like? 01:53 CL: Yeah, Chicago is a good town. 01:57 AM: So, kind of going back more to like your childhood and how it was like growing up when you were young, was your childhood upbringing… was it normal? Did you face any difficulty growing up… were you bullied or anything like that? 02:07 CL: Like in terms of being LGBT? 02:09 AM: Just in general… 02:11 CL: Cause I’m a lesbian... I’m not going to say LGBT because I’m a lesbian. So, in terms of being like a lesbian or just in general? 02:20 2 �AM: Yeah, sure absolutely, and we can look at that question a few ways. How was your upbringing growing up? Was it difficult because maybe… did you face any racial discrimination or was that like more paramount over being a lesbian? So, anything like that… that you faced growing up in your earlier years? 02:47 CL: Right, well okay I will say, growing up in Christiansburg, I didn’t know that I was a lesbian… and I know I had mentioned this to you before on our initial talk together, so I grew up… I mean, I would say I’m a child of like the ‘80s and the ‘90s, because I was born in ‘72. There were no out LGBT people, and I’m not saying they didn’t exist, it just wasn’t as you see today… out. You know, these days people are out. So, I really had no concept to be honest with you of sexual orientation when I was growing up… didn’t really think about it. You get what I’m saying. When I look back on it, when I think about my friendships that I had, with like women and my interaction with my male friends… looking back on it I can identify it as, oh, ding ding, I was a lesbian. You know what I’m saying? So… my female friends, we would have like sleepovers and be snuggling and everything, but I didn’t associate that with anything but friendship… Because I had no other model or influences to associate that with anything other than “oh, well we’re just women, this is what we do when we’re friends.” And then when I look at my relationship with males, and to be honest with you even to this day, it’s kind of weird all of my close friends have always been male friendships. Like I said, looking back on it, I think that’s just associated with my sexual orientation. So, I really didn’t identify any way, as straight, gay, or anything growing up just because like I said, I had no context for it. I had no role models. It wasn’t talked about in my growing up. I was never called a lesbian or a dyke, or anything of that nature. 05:00 Now in terms of the color of my skin, which is the obvious part... yeah, I mean I was called a “nigger.” The first time I can remember the word “nigger,” now keep in mind ‘70s, ‘80s, right… growing up in Christiansburg which is, especially back then—less now, because it’s more diverse—but when I was growing up it was a predominantly white community. My graduating class was probably a little over a hundred people and I’d say there’s probably five or so of us that were people of color. When I say people of color, we’re not talking about Latinos and Asians, were talking about you’re black or you’re white... or you’re mixed, you know? So, I do remember when I was a little kid we were… it was me, my sister, and my mother in the car… and we were just driving along in Christiansburg, on College Street where I grew up, passed the little hot bin, and I don’t even remember where we were going, and it was a sunny day and my mom had the windows down and these white men drove by us and screamed out “nigger.” And that was the first time I’d ever even experienced the word “nigger.” And I didn’t quite get that concept, but I can tell you that in like third grade, I believe it was, before you like change classes when you hit junior high when you have different teachers, [but] you have the same teacher in third grade, at least that’s how it was when I grew up… I remember… but you have to think about the history of Virginia, it was one of the states once they integrated the school system that practiced active resistance to integrating the school systems. So, the fact that I was born in ‘72… so by the time I hit third, fourth, fifth grade where you don’t change classes or whatever, and the fact that Virginia was one of the holdover states… basically when I went through school in my younger years what that meant was that the textbooks hadn’t changed yet… forgive me, it wasn’t 3 �third grade it was fifth grade, so let me correct that, it was actually fifth grade. My teacher was Ms. Brown and because the textbooks hadn’t caught up yet, and we were using the holdover textbooks when it was all white and everything was segregated, there was a chapter that we all had to read—I’m the only black person in class—and it was describing what a negro is. And this wasn’t even coming from the teacher, it was literally the textbook that we were required to read and study… and it said “this is what a negro looks like: they have thick full lips, they flat broad noses,” and I remember all of the kids in class kinda turned around and looking at me, and I think that was the first time that we all realized that “oh, there’s something different”… I mean we’re kids, we don’t really care about that stuff until someone points it out, you know? And I would say after that, in terms of just growing up, next time I actually heard the word quote “nigger,” actually came from someone who was mulatto—that’s what we called it back in the day—meaning one parent was white, one parent was black. This was actually in middle school, when you get to change classes, and it was in gym class and it was co-ed, and we were playing dodgeball… and there was a kid there who like I said was of mixed race, one parent was black, one parent was white… and I got him out in dodgeball and he said “you fucking nigger.” I’m sorry if I’m not supposed to cuss in this class. 09:03 AM: No, please do if you feel comfortable to. 09:08 CL: It just devastated me, because I was kind of like… well, it was just weird. And at the time my mom, because my mother for forty-something years worked in the Montgomery County school system, specifically in Christiansburg, and so she actually worked at the middle school that I was [going to]. And my routine was I didn’t even use a locker, like all the other kids. I used my mom’s classroom as my locker. So, after gym class when I’m going to my mom’s classroom, and I’m dropping off my books to pick up the other books for my next class, she’s like “what’s wrong with you, why are you looking all down, or whatever?” and I told her what happened, “well this guy called me a ‘nigger’.” So, my mom like rips out of the classroom and she’s like “who? who?” and I point the guy out… because again we were in the process of changing classes. I pointed him out, she rips him up by his collar and takes him to the principal’s office… so yeah, for me that was my concept of discrimination. Yeah, the fact that I had no concept of sexual orientation from grade K through 12 probably prevented me from, you know, the LGBT type of discrimination, to be honest with you. Now was I perceived to be gay? I don’t know… I mean I think it’s clear… certainly as I grew older, and people just assume that I’m gay, but I guess like I said, the innocence of those times I don’t think people really pictured all of that. But I will tell you when I moved back from Chicago, which was in 2009, and I connected with a few high school friends, apparently there was this whole gay scene going on [back then] that I didn’t know about… so I’m like “oh, really?”… so, apparently someone was aware, it just wasn’t me. 11:30 AM: Oh, wow. So, you would say like most of your experiences in terms of discrimination are more defined by your race rather than your sexuality? 11:40 4 �CL: Well, that’s a really hard question. Let me tell you why… If you’re being discriminated against, someone doesn’t like you [or] they’re mad at you, is it because you’re a woman? Is it because you’re Black? or is it because you’re gay? Uh, I don’t know, unless they say “nigger,” “dyke,” “bitch.” You get what I’m saying? Yeah, discrimination, even… you look at folks who feel like they’ve been discriminated in the workplace, like “I’m going to file a lawsuit, you discriminated against me because I’m Black” Right? Lawyers have a hard time when you’re part of multiple minority groups, distinguishing what was the discrimination. Was it because you’re a woman, was it because you’re black, or is it because you’re a lesbian? And is it a combination of all three? I mean it’s a hard thing honestly to distinguish. Like how do I know? You don’t like me because of what… I don’t know? I mean the first thing that you see when you see me is that I’m Black and that I’m a woman. Maybe when you get to know me and you see my mannerisms then you’ll know that I’m gay. So what’s the discrimination? Is it a combination of all three? Who knows? 12:40 AM: Yeah, that’s interesting… and like knowing that you’re a part of a group that has faced discrimination historically, you can just assume that somebody… you don’t have to know the reason, you just know. So, I can understand, like does that resonate with you a bit? Hmm, that’s interesting. 13:04 CL: Yeah absolutely, I can’t distinguish… certainly there have been people in my life that don’t like me for whatever reason, but I don’t know why that is. Unless I heard—like I told you— "dyke,” “nigger,” “bitch”… then you’re telling me why you hate me. Other than that, I don’t know. I don’t have just one aspect of being a minority, so I can’t distinguish between the three what you don’t like about me. 13:34 AM: No, that’s absolutely right, I can understand that. How was your home life, like with your parents? Did you have a feeling that they knew that you were different in some way? 13:41 CL: Well probably so, because I was a tomboy growing up. I mean girls played with dolls and this and that, but I played with bikes and guns, and little army men… and it was totally encouraged. You know, I had a great upbringing in terms of my identity and coming into an adult. I was never judged. I was never criticized for being who I was… it was always encouraged. If I wanted a gun for Christmas, or a little army boy, or something that was weird, you know, my mom and stepfather didn’t care. They said, “get it for her.” So I never felt that being a tomboy was wrong… it was encouraged, like “that’s who she is, if she wants that then get it for her.” I mean, so I feel like my identity was always validated within my family, but keep in mind—and I’m not generalizing because not all Black people have that experience in their household… and it really depends on the people. But keep in mind that my mother was one of the very first Black people to integrate, racially, into Wytheville High School. Okay? My stepfather, being a Black man, was in and out of the system, you know, was discriminated against his entire life for being a Black man… and he also, back in those days—and this is something that you guys maybe can research on a side note, outside of your project which is 5 �LGBT specific—but there’s something very interesting about the community of Christiansburg, Virginia that should be taught in history books across the nation, but it isn’t. And that’s the fact that there was a place called Christiansburg Industrial Institute. Okay? And I’ll just very quickly… It was a school started by a Quaker called William Shaffer, who was a reverend of Quaker religion, and after the Civil War, when the South fell, he came to Christiansburg, Virginia and he basically educated the Black community. So you have Black folks running around, like “what am I gonna do, we don’t have plantations anymore?” They didn’t know what to do. He said “well I’m gonna come, I’m a Quaker,” as you know they’re all about the liberation of Black folk… and he came to Christiansburg, Virginia and he started a school. He didn’t just start it for Black people. He wanted everybody to attend, but white people didn’t want to go to school with Black people. So, basically what happened was, the Black community was more educated than the white community in Christiansburg, Virginia. And Christiansburg Institute was a massive institution where Black folks owned their own hospitals, their own education system, horse farms… I mean it was a self-sustaining community in Christiansburg. And if you look at history, because I know, I did my dissertation on it when I was in college and I studied this whole history of Christiansburg, which amazes me. And basically what happened was, finally when Virginia decided that they were going to integrate, in the [19]70s—the ‘70s, keep that in mind—white folks could not wait to get rid of Christiansburg Institute. And you look at news reports and they’re like “I wish that my son or daughter was educated like them Black folk,” because you had these kids going from this school to Ivy League schools, which was unheard of in the [19]40s, ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s. Well, that wasn’t happening at the white high school, so they couldn’t wait to tear that school down, because it made them look bad. In fact, if you look at the history of the NAACP, when they were bringing their case to integrate the school system, they first stopped in Christiansburg, Virginia at Christiansburg Industrial Institute. And they said, “we’re going to prove that separate but equal doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work.” So they went to Christiansburg Industrial Institute and then they buried it, because they realized that it does work. And I’m not trying to make any inference of anything, but what happened was, when they went to Christiansburg, and they saw these Black folks going to Ivy League Schools, owning their own businesses, their own hospitals, their own land, they got scared and they felt that that was going to hurt their case to integrate the schools, so they buried them. And that’s just the truth of the history. So I come from that tradition… and I’m not saying that all Black people in Christiansburg come from that, but I can tell you that the Christiansburg Industrial Institute, I mean these people are dying off, but they still exist and they’re trying to start up that museum in Christiansburg. But yeah, I mean that’s just my background… I don’t mean to ramble. 19:22 AM: No, that’s okay. It’s interesting because there’s this neighborhood in Roanoke, called—I believe it’s Gainsboro—and that’s where there was some prominent LGBTQ community forming there, and it was mostly and predominately Black, but overtime… [CL interrupts to dim the shades in her home.] 19:58 CL: Yeah, but I will just say this generally… let’s just be clear that there is racism within the LGBT community. So, when I lived in Chicago, first time away from home, and outside of the 6 �college life, I worked, you know, in three very prominent non-profit agencies for the LGBT community. I worked for the Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce, I worked for Affinity Community Services, and I worked for Lambda Legal, which you know is a national organization and the oldest LGBT legal organization in the country. And I just want to be very clear, that racism is huge in the LGBT community. And I experienced it firsthand as a professional working on the civil rights of LGBTQA... folks. So, I just want to point that out to you. I just wanted to say that in general. 21:13 AM: Oh no, interesting. Do you want to elaborate on that? Like is there a certain situation or circumstance you found yourself in? 21:16 CL: To be perfectly honest with you, we could go on for days. We could go on for days. 21:20 AM: I mean, I don’t know, if you’re comfortable… [CL interrupts to adjust the shades in her home again.] 21:36 CL: … So, I can go on for days, but let’s see, how about we start with…. 21:48 AM: Did you want to talk about something else and maybe we could lead into it? 21:50 CL: No, No. I just want to give you a good example is all. Alright, Lambda Legal, the nation’s… and you might as well say the world because it’s not like there’s some other country that has some LGBT legal organization. So, as you know Lambda Legal came out of Stonewall. Now, we all know Stonewall was a white movement. It’s about white folk going to white bars, and getting their asses kicked. Now, I’m not saying there weren’t Black people in the mix, but come on, let’s just be honest. I’m not saying there weren’t trans people in the mix, but let’s just be honest. This was about gay white men mad because they got exed out of their privilege. And if it wasn’t for them being gay, they’d be part of that other privilege and they mad about it! I mean, I’m sorry, let’s just be honest. So, I worked for Lambda Legal for like four years and. to be honest, it would have been beyond that if I didn’t have to move back here, because my mom got sick. But, we always had major issues at Lambda with race. So, all the attorneys, you know, most of them were Ivy League educated—Harvard, Yale—and they’re all white, except for maybe one or two. They don’t have an outreach staff now, they nixed that, but when I worked for Lambda Legal we had a whole outreach department. Like every office, because it’s a national office, so we had offices in L.A., Chicago—I worked in the Chicago office—Atlanta, New York. And so, all the outreach staff, meaning the face of the agency that went out into the community to talk to folks, well we were all people of color. We were either Black or Latino. Okay, and the top of the agency, and the attorneys, they were all white people. Let’s just be clear. 7 �24:03 Now you look at things like the institution of marriage, okay. I helped with that whole thing. I helped pass marriage legislation in the state of Iowa. The whole thing is, when you even look at the institution of marriage, especially back in the day, when it was first coming up and we were starting to get legislatures passing it or fighting it in the court… The whole thing was, this whole institution of marriage as the predominant push for the LGBT community was a white thing. Now when you look at folks of color—Latinos, Black folks, Asians, whatever you have it— marriage wasn’t their top priority. You know why? Because they were getting their ass beat for being gay, or lesbian, or trans. They weren’t thinking about getting married. That’s an issue of privilege. They were thinking about “Am I going to live tomorrow?” Right? “Am I going to go to school and get my ass beat?” “Am I going to go to work and get fired for being gay?” You get me? So, the whole marriage thing that Lambda Legal, and ACLU, and all these other agencies were pushing, I mean it was really just a concept of white privilege. It’s just like “ok well, we’re white, and if it wasn’t for the fact that we couldn’t be married, that’s the one thing that’s preventing us from our white privilege.” Okay well that’s great, and I’m not saying that gay marriage is a bad thing, I think it’s an important thing. But in the whole concept of what is important, and what is the priority, the diversity of the LGBTQA community faces, that was not the major push for folks of color. That was the major push for gay white men. And that was because it was the one thing that prevented them from their white privilege. Well, we ain’t folks of privilege, alright? We get fired every day, we’re walking in Black communities and getting our asses beat for being gay, or perceived to be. So, our priority was safety, equality, equal rights. Not issues of privilege. 26:39 AM: Yeah. That’s fascinating to me. 26:40 CL: I will tell you. So, every year at Lambda Legal, we would do what called an “employee retreat,” to work on basically the overall strategic plan of the agency. And I remember, there was this one year, and I can’t even remember where it was, I think it was somewhere in Connecticut or something. So, we all got together, like we did annually. Just to talk about “oh, what should the strategic plan be for the upcoming year? What goals have we met for this past year?” And it got so heated between us outreach staff, which was the “color” of the agency, and the white folk which was the attorneys and everybody above them. We’re sitting there one day at this retreat, and its usually like a week-long, or something like that, and we’re sitting there and [this woman] who was my outreach coworker that worked out of the Texas office, Dallas, walks in with a sign on her shirt that said “negro.” That’s how bad it got. 28:00 The other thing I will mention is how the LGBT lead agencies always want these other groups to sign onto their stuff to move forward their civil rights. NAACP, “oh please sign onto our amicus brief about marriage, or about this or about that.” “Oh ACLU, please sign on to this, sign on to that.” “Oh, Asian, Pacific Islanders.” Everybody. They always want other prominent groups to sign on to whatever they’re doing, to move their civil rights forward. Now let’s just keep what I just said in mind. And that’s fine. NAACP did it, and it was hard for them. They didn’t want to sign onto that gay stuff because they homophobic, but they did. They did. When you look at the 8 �flip side—okay you got George Floyd, you got all of these things going on in communities of color—do you think these LGBT prominent groups are signing onto their amicus briefs? They will only do it, if it specifically affects what they consider their rights as LGBT people, even though they’ve piggybacked on every other movement. The LGBT community, all the rights that we’ve achieved is a piggyback of the Black civil rights movement and the women’s movement. Alright. Now they’ll sign onto anything that has to do with Roe v. Wade. Now keep in mind that our right to privacy as gay people, meaning the cops ain’t kicking down our door because we are having sex in the bedroom, comes from Lawrence v. Texas. That’s the case that changed the law for the LGBT community. Now what’s that case based on? It’s based on Roe v. Wade, that’s what that case is based on. And that’s my whole point. Now if it’s just generally, “oh well this Black man got beat in the street, and it’s Black Lives Matter” they ain’t signing onto that. Why is that? I mean there are Black people in your community. You get what I’m saying? There are women in your community. You want everybody to sign onto your stuff, but where are you when our civil rights are trampled on? But you’re there if it has something to do with the law and your rights. And that’s just my take on this whole thing and I’m sorry I don’t mean to rant. 30:28 AM: No, it’s absolutely fine. Thank you for that. Wow, yeah that’s lots of information. I wanted to continue on and ask you about some of your experiences in college. How was that like for you, and what did you get your degree in? 30:45 CL: Let’s see, my undergraduate degree is in non-profit management and I have an MBA. 30:54 AM: Oh, very cool, very cool. And where do you currently work now? 31:07 CL: I work for Housing Connections. I basically oversee the housing choice voucher program for Pulaski County. 31:15 AM: Okay cool, alright. 31:18 CL: Housing equality. 31:21 AM: Housing equality, sounds good. And you do a lot of volunteer work from what I’ve heard as well. So, what exactly do you do? 31:30 CL: I’ll admit, since I’ve moved back… When I was in Chicago, I did a lot of volunteer work. I worked on immigrant issues. I served on the board and did school trainings as well for a prominent agency that looked to bring equality to LGBTQ youth in schools, like K-12. I did a lot of education with staff and students. But since I’ve moved back here I tried to get into that, and 9 �that’s actually how I met Garland.1 When I first moved back, I was like “where’s the gay community here?” I mean, I haven’t been here since I was a kid, so I don’t know. And when I was a kid I wasn’t gay here, or didn’t know I was. And so I tried to get into that, and that’s how I met Garland. There was this group called Roanoke Diversity, because they were afraid to call it “gay,” but that’s just another story [laughter]. That’s how I met Garland and I mean I tried to get into that for a little while, but it just wasn’t for me, personally. Just, you know, not my speed, not my thing, not for me. To be honest, I don’t really do a lot of volunteer work anymore. My job and just the significance of the communities that I serve is pretty fulfilling to me. But yeah, if I found an agency that I thought would be great to connect with, then I certainly would. 33:29 AM: So yeah you met with Garland… [CL makes off-record remark to another person on the call] So you know Garland, so how exactly did you guys meet? 33:53 CL: Yeah, so Garland was my buddy. He is like one of the first folks that I met when I moved back here from Chicago, in 2009. 34:00 AM: Yeah, he spoke to us in one of our first classes, because he’s also doing an interview I believe. Or he’s at least a community partner that is working with us. Seems like a very nice guy. It’s awesome that you guys are helping us work on our project this year, so we really appreciate that. So, I wanted to ask you a bit more about when you moved back to Virginia. Why did you? And if you can remember when you moved, was this before or after what happened in Charlottesville in 2017? 34:40 CL: It was before. So, I moved back here in 2009 for my mom. So basically, in the ‘90s my mom was diagnosed with these seizures and overtime they got worse, they became grand mal seizures. And when I was out in Chicago—I lived in Chicago for over 14 years—and when I was out in Chicago because my family didn’t want to worry me, they would never really tell me what was going on. And I would come home typically once a year around Christmas, sometimes I’d come twice around Thanksgiving as well. And my mother got significantly worse, like her grand mal seizures were just out of control. I was worried, so I came home. That was the initial reason why I came home. Then it was a different health problem that she eventually passed away of. So yeah, that’s why I came home initially. 35:35 AM: Oh, okay. So, you said that you ended up moving before what happened in Charlottesville in 2017? 35:50 CL: Yeah, I moved back from Chicago back to here, Southwest Virginia, in 2009. 1 Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Oral History Interview with Garland Gravely,” February 19, 2017, Virginia Room Digital Collection, http://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/document/GravelyGarland. 10 �36:00 AM: 2009. Okay, so you were here for a quite a long time before. So, that’s interesting. Did you notice anything change between… because that was around the year that Obama got elected, as well, into the presidential office? 36:14 CL: I was actually, when Obama got elected, I was still in Chicago. And keep in mind he was a soon of “Chi-town” … So… 36:18 AM: Yeah, it was around during that time, I guess. Have you seen a transition between that time you moved back to 2017 when the riots in Charlottesville occurred, you know, in terms of race relations? 36:29 CL: Do I see a change? 36:32 AM: Yeah, like did you see, in the political sphere as well, during that span of time when you lived here did you see a shift? 36:39 CL: Yeah, I mean what the change is, is that because of political correctness, whatever you want to call it, it used to be that racism was more hidden [laughter]. Recently, it’s become like it was back in the day, people don’t care. “I’m a racist” So, it’s more… it’s not that racism went away. It was always racism from the beginning of time. The difference is when it’s hidden and when it’s visible, when white folks feel they need to hide it and when they feel comfortable to show it. So, yeah, the difference is: hidden to visible. I mean, feeling like you have the community’s support so you can be in the KKK again. I mean, that’s the difference. Honestly. 37:30 AM: Did you see any of that live on TV, or did you see any of that footage at the time, and how did that make you feel if you did? 37:47 CL: In Charlottesville? 37:48 AM: Yeah, in Charlottesville, I mean. 37:49 CL: Yeah, I mean I saw much of that. I saw the little Nazis marching around talking about Jews and this and that. I mean look [laughter]… How does that make me feel? Quite frankly, and look, I don’t give a good-googely-crap about what white people think, what straight people think, what anybody the fuck thinks. I mean when you’re secure with yourself, what other people 11 �do, it don’t matter. You get what I’m saying? How did I feel about that? There was a bunch of ignorant white people marching around on my TV screen. That’s what I think about it. Okay, now where it affects me is when that ignorant crap becomes law or policy, then that affects me. Now, you want to march around like a little idiot, looking like a little KKK, [or] Hitler [makes mocking sounds]. Now when it becomes any kind of law or policy that affects me or other people, then that’s when I care. Other than that, people can believe what they believe, think what they think, I don’t give a shit. I’m not here to appease you. I’m not here to educate you, and that important. Educate you. It appears that every minority group was put on Earth to educate people, about why they shouldn’t be “this” or why they shouldn’t be “that.” Why do we have to educate folk? Did anyone sit you down and educate you on white privilege? No, you learned it, didn’t you? Did anyone sit there and educate you on anything to do with a community that is not a minority group? No, we all learned that. You get me, but they [are] sitting back thinking our whole life is to educate them. “Oh, well this is what it’s like to be this… and this is what it’s like to be Black… and this is my experience…” When are you going to sit back and educate me on what’s it’s like to be white? Right, I mean that is not the expectation. So, yeah, I mean that’s just my view of things. Now I’m not saying I don’t educate people. I do it, but I don’t feel like I’m called to do it. And I feel that minority groups—I don’t care what minority group you fall into—it’s kind of like this requirement that your whole life is to be educating people about why you should have your rights… Well okay, who you are, okay… Well, they’re not educating me on who they are. Right, you get me. I’m not expecting someone to sit down and be like, “okay Catina, this is what it’s like to be white.” No. But yet I’m supposed to sit down and educate you on “this is what it’s like to be Black.” I mean come on, man. So, my whole thing is, yeah, like I said, I saw a bunch of idiots walking around on the screen looking like a bunch of dumbasses, and whatever, that’s their right. But the point when it becomes any kind of policy or law, or they’re fucking with me and trying to come after me, okay, that’s my business. But other than that, whatever I don’t let things like that…. Because in the end folks change, in my opinion, based on personal experience. They know a Black person, they know a trans person, they know a gay person, and they’re friends with that person. They have a mutual respect and a bond with that person. That’s how people change, okay? Now there’s the other route, you can make em’ change. You can change the law, you can enforce policy, yes, but usually that’s the hard way. I mean, people follow the law and follow policy, but that does not change people’s hearts and minds, it changes their behavior and their action. How you change hearts and minds is when people get to know Black people, “oh my best friend, we grew up together, and I love her, you don’t talk bad about her,”… “oh, my cousin’s gay and I love him.” That’s how you change heart and minds. Now like I said we are always changing behavior and action, which is great, that’s an important part of it. But, in the end, real change is hearts and minds. Hearts and minds. And that’s a personal connection. 42:21 AM: Yeah sure, thanks for that. I know how you were saying how… and I can agree with you on a lot of what you just said, in terms of like we can’t allow these people, who have these prejudices, to feel like their messages matter, and we need to care about them, or validate them through our attention to them. But then recently we had something happen at the White House on January 6th, with the Capitol riots—another instance where we have a bunch of white people going and exercising their right to essentially take over our government, or whatever they were 12 �trying to attempt to do there. Those are things that we need to think about in terms of like, “what does that say about America’s acceptance to diverse perspectives and people?” 43:18 CL: I think it says exactly what I just said [laughter]. You have a bunch of boneheads who are racist as hell… [several seconds of CL and AM talking over one another] 43:41 AM: Or maybe I should say it differently… like, normalizing being discriminatory in the vein of having free speech. You know what I’m saying? Like normalizing this behavior. Does that concern you? 43:59 CL: I agree with you. Yeah, my whole point is, when you have members of Congress who are standing up there, and an ex-president standing up there condoning that behavior, right… Yeah that’s when you speak up, you… you get me? 44:20 AM: Are you hopeful though? 44:24 CL: Am I hopeful? Am I hopeful that America will ever be anything but a racist place to be? Ummm… [laughter], yes [laughter]. And I say this because… well, first of all, we can look at just the science of it all, you know, what year is it going to be where white folks are going to be in the minority and most people are going to be mixed anyway? I say that because, like I said to you, think about history and where Black people, Latinos, Asians—and I’m not saying this doesn’t happen today, especially when you go to bigger cities—don’t mix. I have my community and I never go outside of my community. Even when I lived in Chicago, let me tell you something, I met Black folk on the Southside, Latinos on the Westside, that never traveled outside of their neighborhood in Chicago. I’m like what are you talking about, how have you never traveled outside of your neighborhood? So, I’m not saying that doesn’t exist. Now my whole point is… look, this is about hearts and minds. Hearts and minds. Once folks meet other people, alright, they love somebody, “oh well that’s my best friend, we grew up, we thick and thin,” it’s hard to close off your heart and your mind… you get what I’m saying. Like once you have a personal connection with someone, and quite frankly, when you think about race relations, yes of course there is the whole legal aspect of it, the whole policy aspect of it, but that’s not what changed white folk. “Oh, well, the law says this and now I like you.” No, what happened was they began to meet folks who weren’t like themselves and they realized, “Oh, you’re not that much different than me and you’re my best friend,” and that’s how that shit changes. So, even with this crap that happened at the Capitol, it’s the same thing. Unfortunately, change is slow. Oh my god, it’s so slow. It is the slowest dag gone thing. We will all be dead and buried before then. I mean, change is a very slow process. So, do I believe that in the end there will be some sense of a kumbaya? Likely. Just because demographics are changing in relation to race, intermarriages, not even marriages, but mixed babies, people of color. And if you’re looking at the Latino community their coming over here like droves, they’re going to be over this place soon. So, yeah whether they like it or not, it’s coming. Because people of color, even when 13 �you look at the LGBT community, no doubt. Did you know, that when you look at LGBT couples who are Black and Latino, that they raise children at higher rates than their white counterparts? They have and raise children at higher rates than their white counterparts. Yeah, change is coming, eventually. 48:10 AM: Yeah, all of that. You’ve said some very interesting points to me that I’ve been trying to see if I can circle back for the last few minutes that we have. I want to kind of go back and talk about some more about white privilege in general. And also, I want to touch upon white gay privilege, cause I thought you made some interesting points with that, too. So, with all that is going on politically and race relation-wise in the United States, just in general, do you feel like white men period feel like they are out of place in a world that is becoming more and more diverse, but in a vein it’s kind of against white people in general? You know what I’m saying. It’s coming to a point where white men probably feel threatened by the growing amount of diversity in the United States. Do you think that they might feel a bit left out, or at this point feeling a bit useless, and now they’re trying to find some sort of meaning and purpose in their lives? Generally speaking, do you get what I mean when I say that? 49:20 CL: I see exactly what you’re saying. Yeah, my answer is that the proof is in the pudding. When change is on the rise, that’s when you see people act out. Alright, they weren’t acting out before, right? Because they felt comfortable. The fact that they are storming the Capitol, you look at this Charlottesville thing, is because they feel threatened. Otherwise, why would they even march? If there’s no threat, what’s the march for? Alright, we march because there’s a threat. They ain’t marching, they’re just like, “look at those people marching.” Well, now they marching. So, that tells you that they feel threatened. Because people act out, they fight, when there’s a threat. So, yes, I think it’s obvious based on what you see. 50:12 AM: Yeah, and that’s exactly right. I wanted to also talk a little bit about white gay privilege as well, because I think that’s interesting. We also kind of talked about this in class, where even within the LGBTQ community… it’s interesting because what we talked about was how white gay men feel a bit excluded from the rest of the LGBTQ community, because they are kind of like the ones who already have the most privilege, at times. And that seems absurd, and I frankly would disagree and say that Black LGBTQ tend to be the ones discriminated the most against… 50:49 CL: I don’t know who told you that, but that is not true. They own the LGBT community. Girl, I don’t know where you got that information from but let me tell you something…. 51:00 AM: Well, just like… 51:05 CL: That is some BS and that is just not true. And let me tell you what, because the white men in the LGBT community, it’s nothing but a reflection of all of society, where white men control the 14 �world. White men control the world. These gay men are not what you just said. They’re controlling the world too, and you know what, they control the LGBTQ community. Who’s out front in the LGBTQ community? Yeah, they may put a person of color out front, but who’s behind it? Who’s behind the money, who’s behind going to the courts, who’s behind going to the legislator, who determines the LGBTQ agenda of what they’re going to fight for? White men. Now you go back and prove to me that that’s not true. Cause if you look behind all of these prominent LGBT agencies, you’re gonna find white folk, and they’re setting the agenda for what the LGBT community is going to focus on. It’s their agenda. That’s just a fact. 52:05 AM: Yeah, you brought up gay marriage and how… and that’s true, I don’t want to say that gay marriage isn’t an important issue that people wanted to get passed… it’s important to some people. 52:10 CL: No, and it’s certainty not about whether it’s important or not. It’s not about whether it’s important or not. We’re talking about an issue of privilege versus issues of life and death. 52:24 AM: Sure, exactly. 52:25 CL: When you can’t go to school without getting your ass kicked, when you can’t go to work for fear of being fired, do you think you care about who you’re going to marry? That is when you don’t have to worry about going to work and getting fired, when you don’t have to worry about going to school and getting your ass kicked, then you can focus on an issue of privilege. Which is, marriage is not a right, it’s a damn privilege. And let’s just be honest, it’s an institution of privilege. Marriage is an institution of privilege. I’m not saying that LGBT people shouldn’t have that right, they should. But what happened was the white community emphasized that over issues of life and death, that folks of color and trans [people] of all colors were facing at the time. And that’s just my whole point. They’re dealing with life and death, white men dealing with marriage. And that just tells you… I mean we can look at that just in the larger society, forget sexual orientation. I mean, what white people are fighting for and what Black folk are fighting for, right? I mean, I’m not really seeing this huge movement of white folks talking about police brutality. That’s Black folk and Latino folk, right? And with this whole COVID-19 thing, I’m not seeing a huge population of white folk talking about how they’re being discriminated against and it being called the “Chinese flu” and being beaten. That’s Asian folk. And that’s my point. We all deal with different realities based on the color of our skin, minus sexual orientation, and then your gender adds to it. You know what I’m saying. It adds to it. Now think about the Black Civil Rights Movement, the actual real Black Civil Right Movement. Guess who they didn’t want represented in there? Gay people. Think about the Women’s Rights Movement. The whole Suffrage movement, guess who they didn’t want represented in their movement? Black women. That’s my whole point. You get me? Because Black leaders during the Black Civil Rights Movement thought, “well, that whole gay thing, that’s going to hurt our cause.” White women during the Women’s Suffrage Movement thought “oh, that whole Black women thing, that’s going to hurt our cause.” LGBT people, currently in their movement, “well, if we attach 15 �ourselves to that Black stuff or that women’s rights stuff, that’s going to hurt our cause.” And that’s my whole point, you know. Each group alienates a certain portion of their community hoping that it will fare better on their path to whatever it is their fighting for. And that’s just history, and that’s the truth. 55:36 AM: That’s sad. But no, that’s very true. Um, I mean yeah, wow. You’ve said a lot here today that I wish I could go back to and talk with you about more. But I wanted to, we only have about five minutes left, so we should probably close up. But, I did want to ask you: given your experiences between living in Virginia and going to school in Chicago, and having your young adulthood there, in general as being a Black lesbian woman, what was the differences between living in those two places and was there anything from those experiences that you can draw from now, and that you could say that represent you very well to this day? 56:33 CL: Well, I mean obviously the difference is, in a big city you’re going to have a large gay community. I mean in Chicago there’s a whole neighborhood dedicated to just gay folks, actually two of them. Andersonville is typically considered the lesbian aspect, and Boystown, well, I guess that describes itself [laughter]. So, I mean you got a huge, millions upon millions of out gay people doing their thing and not thinking about “okay I’m gay whatever, I’m just shopping…” Right? In a community like this, obviously you’re going to have a much smaller community and you’re not going to have out gay-owned businesses, multiple bars or social scenes where gay folks hangout, and connect and meetup with each other. So, yeah, obviously that’s going to be a significant difference. Also, you can’t make a living… I’ve never seen any gay agencies here where you can make a good living working in the gay community. Let me tell you something, I made good freaking money working in the LGBT community in Chicago. I made my whole living on that. Ain’t like you’re going to find a job like that here, in Southwest Virginia. So, yeah, I mean there are significant differences. I mean, come on now. And let’s not forget that we are in the state of Virginia. I mean, come on [laughter]. I mean the state that said “we’re not going to desegregate schools until the late ‘70s,” when everybody else in the world did. So, I mean come on now. You’re dealing with a whole different scenario in the Commonwealth than you are in other places. 58:16 AM: That’s true. So I guess, when you were in Chicago… you said you didn’t date too much when you were in high school, so did you start dating while you were there? And start to get more familiar? 58:27 CL: Oh, absolutely. I mean obviously, yeah, because even if I wasn’t gay in high school… Let me tell you something. My mama, because my real father died, when we were little and of course I was raised by a stepfather. My mom always worked full time and never had any kind of dependence on any kind of government or food stamps or housing; she always provided for the family. And so, she put us in everything, so she could go to work. Man, I was in band, I was in theater, I was in track and field, I was on the forensics team. I was in everything… and I was in 16 �dance. I was in everything. I didn’t even think about sexual orientation and dating because I was busy, doing my thing, you know what I’m saying. 59:11 AM: Well, that’s great. I mean, we’re really happy that you’ve been able to take this time to speak with us, but we do have about a minute left. But if there’s anything else that you’d like to say that we haven’t touched on, or if there’s anything that you’ve been meaning to address to us about your perspective as being part of the LGBT community? 59:49 CL: I mean no, not really. I think I’ve pretty much told you how I feel. I mean, yeah. I typically don’t leave nothing left unsaid. 59:55 AM: Well, awesome. We really appreciate your time. I hope you have a great rest of your day. I guess we will get back to you about the rest of this interview. Thank you so much for your time. 60:00 CL: okay, good luck to you. Sorry for the last minute I hope you guys can figure it out. END. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Catina Lowery Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Catina Lowery Interviewee: Catina Lowery Interviewer: Alexis Mattson Date: 24 March 2021 Location: Online via Zencastr Duration: 59:49 Transcription prepared by: Lucy Perry Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 24 March 2021 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Catina Lowery, Alexis Mattson, and Lucy Perry Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LoweryCatina https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5824/Price.mp3 b04c1a50991c8c575a5a764433b1d383 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5824/Price.1.pdf 34d8a7ff3fbe6a4807c44ad7966f1972 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Price March 18, 2021 Interviewer: Steph Zemba Interviewee: Price Date: Thursday March 18, 2021 Location: online via Zencastr (Salem, Virginia & Troutville, Virginia) Transcription Prepared by Erica Gudino, Hannah Brotton, Charlie, Steph Zemba, and Alexus Smith Duration: 94:18 0:00 = Childhood in Northern Alabama, including early awareness of gender and sexuality (1960s) 5:24 = Moving to a larger city in Alabama (c. 1968) 6:10 = Bullying in grammar school; lack of friends in middle and high school (late 1960s-1970s) 9:52 = Early observations of gay and lesbian couples; butch/femme gender roles in the 1960s1970s; family’s attitudes towards homosexuality 14:00 = Attending college in Birmingham and going to a gay bar for the first time (late 1970s); coming out as lesbian (1978); relationship with first partner 16:35 = Drug abuse and sobriety (early 1980s); wrestling with gender identity; suicidal ideation 20:17 = Meeting another trans man for the first time (1982) 22:08 = Creating a Gay Alcoholics Anonymous group in Birmingham (1982) 22:48 = Learning about the AIDS epidemic; working with AIDS patients as a nurse (1980s) 29:15 = Lesbians and the AIDS crisis; stigma attached to bisexual women 32:22 = Going back to college as an out queer person 35:58 = Moving to South Florida with partner for five years; leaving Florida and moving to North Carolina (Early 1990s) 37:05 = Facing anti-gay harassment in Greensboro, North Carolina (mid-1990s) 40:10 = Leaving North Carolina and moving to Virginia (c. 2000) 42:43 = Mention of Backstreet Café shooting in Roanoke (2000) 43:10 = Involvment in the Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) of the Blue Ridge; experiences with churches in North Carolina and Virginia 49:14 = Beginnings of self-isolation (mid-2000 to late 2010s) 51:22 = Beginning gender transition (2019 - present) 52:54 = Navigating being transgender in the workplace; getting top surgery; name change 58:38 = Involvement with SARA Roanoke (Sexual Assault Response and Awareness); volunteering 1 �1:02:38 = Making trans male friends, and gay male friends 1:06:49 = Experiences with transphobia in various settings, including banking and healthcare 1:11:46 = Microaggressions and being deadnamed 1:15:34 = Aging and transitioning 1:22:35 = Trying to connect with the local transgender community 1:26:55 = Opinion on the internet and visibility for younger transgender individuals 1:31:18 = Closing thoughts Interview (1:34:18 total). 0:00 SZ: My name is Steph Zemba and I am here with Price on March 18th, 2021, as part of the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Project, Oral History Initiative. We’re doing this interview over Zencaster, so, hi Price, and welcome. 0:14 P: Hi Steph. Thank you. 0:17 SZ: Yeah. Can we just start off with your childhood, just give us like a little bit of an overview of that? 0:23 P: Of my childhood? 0:25 SZ: Yeah, where you grew up and what it was like for you. 0:28 P: Yeah, so I grew up in a really small town in North Alabama of probably about five hundred people, maybe six hundred people; one stop light; two churches. My parents… my mother was from there, my dad was from New York. And so we were a little bit of an odd family there because my dad was a Yankee and he drank beer and the local church wasn’t too happy with that. He was also atheist. So on one side, it was the church, we went to church every time the doors were open. We went to the Southern Baptist church with my grandparents. And then on the other side, it was my dad who was an atheist. So it was kind of nice because I had a little bit of a buffer from the ‘hell and brimstone’ that was taught at the church and I just never believed it. I can remember being a small child and just being in church and thinking, ‘How can this be right?’ So, I was glad that I had that, because I think a lot of my friends grew up with a lot of shame 2 �because of that [the church’s teachings] and I didn’t internalize that at that time. I just went but I didn’t really believe what they were saying. 2:05 SZ: Yeah, so was religion a big part of your life in the home? Or not so much? 2:11 P: Not so much in my home but my grandparents were [religious]. They went to church every time the doors were open, and I lived with them some when I was little, so they would take me to church with them. My dad ended up leaving when I was four and I lived with my grandparents some for a couple of years and that was when I started to notice that I was different. I probably was five or six years old and I was attracted to girls and I wanted to marry a girl. [As kids] playing, I always had a girlfriend, and I thought that was different and I never really said anything about it. But I guess because I felt so different because of my family, with a Yankee dad and [him being] an atheist father, and they already thought we was odd because my parents were divorced and nobody had ever been divorced there. So I just felt that that was just another part of being different from the kids that I grew up with there. And when I was little, honestly, I thought I was a boy. I wore boy clothes and I had a boy haircut. I played with boy stuff. If they gave me dolls, I would shave their hair off and make them into boy dolls. And, you know, I wanted G.I. Joes and all that but I never got any of those kinds of things. The most I could ever get out of my mother was a little pack of green plastic army men at the grocery store and I would get packs of those and play army. It was weird, because nobody in that town even acted like it was weird, you know? I guess they just thought that I was an ultra tomboy or something, and I never felt weird about how I was. I didn’t feel like anybody thought much about it, which was nice. I grew up on the Tennessee River and during the day in the summer I would get up and me and my dog and I would just go and hit the woods and hit the boathouse and we’d be gone all day, playing in the woods or whatever. I was always Daniel Boone or some male figure like Dr. Spock. We would play Star Trek and I was always Dr. Spock. So it was really kind of a nice childhood, living there in that town. 5:20 SZ: Yeah, so what years would that be approximately? 5:24 P: So, I was about nine when we moved from there and we moved to a bigger city in Alabama. And I was behind academically because I had gone from that small county school system to a city school system, so I had to struggle a little bit with that. And the very first day that I went to the new school, the teacher put me in front of the class and was telling the students that they had a new student, and a boy in the back of the class yelled out, “Are you a boy or are you a girl?” 3 �6:09 SZ: Oh wow. 6:10 P: Yeah, I mean, it just stopped me. I mean, it stopped me in my tracks. Nobody had ever said anything like that to me, ever. And of course everybody in the class laughed, and so that was like a real turning point in my childhood. I went from being fairly happy, a good student, and I was happy with how I was and nobody said anything about it, to that. And it was a real shock for me. 6:50 SZ: Yeah. 6:50 P: I was bullied. The kids bullied me. And so I didn’t have any friends, so I started to try to do things to fit in, like I grew my hair out and I started to try to dress more like the girls in my class. But I never fit in with them or with the guys. I wanted to play boys’ sports and I wanted to do all that. Of course, this was in 1969, in the late ‘60s, so I was always put with the girls, and I never ever fit in with either group. So, all through the rest of that grammar school, and all through junior high and high school, I really had no friends. I was by myself a lot. And, you know, it was just a really lonely, really lonely time for me. My mother had always had gay friends when I was little and had gay friends when I moved, and I knew that I was different but I didn’t really identify with them either. 8:18 SZ: Oh. 8:19 P: I guess—and I’ve come to understand this more now—I didn’t want a girl to like me because I was a girl. I wanted a girl to like me because I was a boy, and that was not possible. So, I didn’t really identify with the gay people I knew either. So high school was pretty rough. I graduated early because I just couldn’t stand to go. I went as little as possible and I petitioned the school board to let me graduate early. And they said, “Well, you’ll miss the prom and you’ll miss the senior picnic and all of that.” And I said, “Do I look like I care about that? I don’t care about that at all, I just want out of here.” It was so bad. I hung out with a guy that lived across the street, and he was a misfit, too. We started smoking a lot of pot, so that was kind of what got me through high school. We would walk to school together and we’d smoke a joint on the way to school [laughter], which made it a little more tolerable. But I graduated early and got a job and then I went to college. 9:52 4 �SZ: Yeah, so during your childhood, what were your parents and grandparents like? Were they really open to people who didn’t really identify with the gender binary? You know, like men versus women. 10:03 P: Yeah, well actually, I don't think that they had ever heard of anything like that. I mean, like when I was little and living in that small town... We lived on the river, so our house was like a party house, and there were always people there on the pier drinking and spending the night and that kind of thing. There were always women couples, lesbian couples, and there were always gay men couples. But the women couples were always one women was real kind of butch, and the other one wasn’t. And it was kind of like, you would say, “Well, who's the girl and who’s the boy?” But there was no non-binary stuff. We had never heard of that. And the guys were mostly always effeminate. Most of them were hairdressers. And I’m being real stereotypical, but that was how it was. And then, the gay people my mother knew later, in the bigger town that we moved to, the guys, some of them, were very masculine and some were very feminine. So, you were still into that… even if they were gay or lesbian, it was still relatively binary. You see, they were either really butch or really effeminate. You didn't see anybody that was kind of in between. 11:44 I got really close to one of my mom’s friends during that period of time when I was in high school. His name was Fred Price. My mother sort of disowned me when I was about thirteen and told me that I was on my own. She didn’t care what I did. She didn't care when I came home. She didn’t care who I was with, or whatever. So I smoked a lot of pot and stayed out of her way. And [I met] this one friend of hers and we just kind of hit it off. He would come and get me before I could even drive and take me to his house and I’d spend the weekend with him. Or if she kicked me out of the house or locked me out of the house, I’d call him and he’d come get me. He was kind of like my savior in high school. He was just always there and he really never dated anybody. He had some gender issues himself with his family. His dad was a preacher. Of course, my grandparents thought it was totally wrong. That you would just go to hell if you were—my grandmother called lesbians “lisbens.” She said, “If you’re one of those ‘lisbens’ you’re going to hell.” So, we had some conversations about it and I said, “I’m sorry that you believe that way, but I don't believe that way. I don't think that I'm going to hell and I really don't want to have this conversation again.” So we never did. She and my grandfather eventually, and actually pretty quickly, came to accept how I was. And they accepted if I was with someone and they came home with me for Christmas or something. If they got me a present, they got her the same present. And they called my partners my ‘buddy.’ You know, they’d call and say, “How's your buddy doing?” But they were okay with it and they never gave me any trouble about it after that. 14:00 5 �I got ahead of myself there, but when I went to college, I started going to gay bars. It was in the mid-70s and the gay bars were really big with the disco music and they were just really fun places to be. I had a roommate who was an art major, and she and her boyfriend went to the gay bars. They asked me if I wanted to go and I had never heard of anything like that before. I mean, I knew those gay people my mother knew, but they never went to a bar, and I didn’t know how they got to be gay or how they met people or anything. So I said, “Yeah, I’d love to go!” So, I started going to the gay bars and I started meeting girls who liked me. All through high school I had crushed on straight girls and they never paid me any attention at all, and I just followed them around like a little puppy dog, wanting them to talk to me and notice me, which they never did because they were straight. So, I started going to gay bars and started running into girls and the girls liked me. And I thought, “Maybe I am a lesbian.” It made more sense to me than anything else I had seen, so I came out when I was 19 as a lesbian. That was in 1978. My first partner was quite a bit older than I was and did not get along with my mother at all. They hated one another. So that was a real, real bad period of time, with my mother hassling me and calling me and starting fights and stuff. And then my partner would get on the phone and they would get into a fight. It was not good. It was not good for anybody. My partner had been a heroin addict in the ‘60s. 16:34 SZ: Hmm. 16:35 P: Because there was so much turmoil with me, and with my mother and all that, we started doing a lot of drugs, a lot of pills, and of course that escalated, too. I was shooting some drugs at the time. I was in college, but I wasn’t doing very good because I was doing so many drugs and I overdosed a couple times and ended up in a psych ward. And quickly begged to be transferred to a drug rehab program because I didn’t want to be in the psych ward. I thought a drug rehab would be better. So I went there and my partner and I split up. I went through rehab, got clean, quit drugs, quit drinking, and went back to school… I didn’t have anywhere to live so I lived in halfway houses for a while and went back to school. And it was then that I would, again, over and over, I would fall in love with a straight woman. You know, either classmates who were straight or women that I met through the program, through AA [Alcoholics Anonymous] or NA. There was no Narcotics Anonymous back then; addicts went to AA. So, I went through a period of a couple of years where I was in so much pain over wanting to change my gender. I had heard about some famous people, and back then they called them transexuals. And I had heard about those people … 18:38 And I started to figure out... I wasn’t drinking, I wasn't doing any drugs, and I was thinking more clearly. I was coming to the realization that I was not a lesbian, that I was actually trans, and we 6 �didn't even have a word for that then. I guess you would say transexual, but those were the people that had had surgeries. But I knew that I was not lesbian, I knew that I wanted to change my gender. I journaled for two years and I was in a lot of pain over it, like every night saying “Why did I have to be born in this body? Why is it so hard?” And I had, at one point, decided that I would just kill myself. And I usually talked to my grandparents on Sunday and I think it was on a Thursday that I decided that I was just going to go and kill myself because I couldn’t deal with it. I was getting ready to leave my apartment and my grandmother called. She never called on Thursday, ever. Never. 20:02 SZ: Wow. 20:03 P: Yeah, so it really saved my life. You know, I thought, “Gosh, how could I do that? Why did she call me right now?” So I decided to just put it away for a little bit, and about the same time I did meet a transsexual. 20:24 SZ: Hmm. 20:25 P: He was a friend of a [audio cuts out]. Went to college with him when he presented as female. And he had had top and bottom surgery in Philadelphia. And... 20:40 SZ: Oh. 20:41 P: Back in… and this would have been… I met him in 1982 so he probably had his surgeries in the late ‘70s, early ‘80s in Philadelphia. So, she said, “Why don’t we go, and you can meet him.” So we drove up. He was living in Rhode Island. We drove up and stayed the weekend with him. What had happened to him was so horrible. They didn't take good care of him when he had his surgery and he had terrible scars. I mean, he wouldn't even take his shirt off. He wouldn't show his chest, it was so scarred. 21:27 SZ: Wow. 21:28 7 �P: Yeah. He was not happy. His family had disowned him and said, “We never want to see you again.” So he was struggling a lot with all of that. So, when I came back from meeting him, I thought, “I can't. There's just no way I can do this.” So I just resigned myself to just going on with my life, you know? I finished school. 22:01 SZ: So where did you go to college at? 22:03 P: I went to the University of Alabama in Birmingham. 22:07 SZ: Okay. 22:08 P: And that was another interesting thing. When I got out of drug rehab… The drug addicts had to go to AA, and the people in AA didn’t like us because we were young and we were drug addicts, and most of them were older people and they were really hardcore alcoholics. They didn’t want to hear about this drug stuff. They had never heard of Quaaludes [Methaqualone] and Cocaine. They just didn't want to hear about it. So we started a Gay AA [Alcoholics Anonymous]. We had never heard of NA, but we started a Gay AA. 22:47 SZ: Oh. 22:48 P: Sometimes there were only one or two people that would come. There was one guy that came every single time. Every single time. Sometimes it would just be him sitting there and sometimes I would go and it would just be me and him. Then sometimes there would be a few people. It was mostly guys, and I loved them. They called me ‘baby butch’ and I hung out with them mostly, because it was safe. I mean they were gay guys who weren’t interested [in sex]. What would happen occasionally if I tried to hang out with a straight guy, you know, it would end up in a bad situation because they would think, “Well, I'm gonna be the guy that's gonna change your mind about wanting to date women” or whatever. It always ended up [going] badly. So I hung out with all of these gay guys in Gay AA. It was probably 1982. We were at a meeting and these two guys came from Houston. You could go to a town and look up and see where a meeting was, so they looked it up and found Gay AA, so they came to the AA meeting. And they sat there and they cried… [choking up] 8 �24:21 SZ: Wow. 24:22 P: And they said, “Our friends are dying” [pause]. “All our friends are dying with this virus and all our friends in Houston are dying with it. And our friends in California are dying with it and we don’t know why and we don't know what it is.” And it was AIDS. But we had never heard of AIDS before. We had never heard of HIV. 24:48 SZ: Oh. 24:48 P: We had never heard of it. I mean, they literally begged the guys in this group, “Please either abstain from having sex for a while, or use protection.” And of course the guys that I knew back then… the big thing to do was cruise the park and just have sex with anybody that you found. 25:16 SZ: Oh. 25:17 P: They didn’t believe these guys from Houston, and all of these guys are dead or they’ve been dead for many many years. They all died with… 25:28 SZ: Wow… 25:29 P: …with AIDS. And you know, we just didn't have any way to figure what they were saying, you know? We just… [audio cuts out] we didn’t not believe them, but we didn't really believe them. And I just can remember the guys saying, “Aww, that’s just bullshit. We don't know anything about that here.” And as I said, all of those guys that were friends of mine died of AIDS. 26:03 SZ: Wow. 26:04 9 �P: I was working in the ICU at UAB at the time, it was a burn unit, so we had private rooms, and usually ICUs don’t have private rooms. We got all the AIDS patients, and I took care of all those people. 26:27 SZ: So were you concerned at all then, for yourself? With AIDS being such an emergent. . .? 26:35 P: Yeah! If you can believe this, I drew lab work and drew blood and started IVs and drew blood gases and all kinds of things on those patients with no gloves. 26:50 SZ: Wow. 26:51 P: Because we didn’t know, and back then, if you were a nurse, we were taught never to wear gloves because it made the patients feel weird, like we didn’t want to touch them. So, I mean if we were clean and somebody would use a bedpan or something, we would use gloves. But we didn’t use gloves to start IVs or draw blood or any of that. So, we took care of all those guys in the unit with no gloves and minimal precautions. We really weren’t that concerned about it, you know? We would just say, “I don’t know what this is, really, so I’m not going to worry about it.” And none of us that took care of those guys, as far as I know, ever got anything. But it was a weird time. My cousin died with AIDS also, and he would actually be at a doctor’s office in a wheelchair, when he was really bad. His mother would take him to the doctor and he would need to use the bathroom and they would say, “We don’t have a bathroom.” That’s how bad it was. I mean even the medical community didn’t even want him to use their bathroom. 28:19 SZ: Oh so like the fear of getting it? 28:21 P: Yes, everybody was so—we weren't scared—but everybody else was really scared. His mother took care of him until he died and she didn't get anything either. But there was a lot of hysteria about it, and like I said, all those people died that I knew. A whole generation of just wonderful guys—smart, creative, just great guys—just wiped out. 28:57 SZ: Yeah. 28:57 10 �P: Yeah. So… 28:59 SZ: So, you… 29:01 P: Yeah, go ahead. 29:02 SZ: So with AIDS, a lot of people had tied it to the gay community, the LGBTQ community, were you ever worried about that? Like about people tying you to that? And maybe treating you the same way that you had mentioned with your cousin, you know, with fear? 29:15 P: Yeah! There was a fear, and not so much with the lesbians in the community. I mean at that time lesbians kind of had this attitude of “Well, it isn’t happening to us,” you know, that kind of thing, unless you slept with guys also, or unless you slept with bisexuals. So, at that time the lesbian community felt pretty [safe]. . . we felt like we were okay. We didn’t think we were going to get it, as long as you didn’t sleep with a guy, or sleep with a guy who slept with guys, or sleep with a woman who slept with guys. So, there was a lot of, “I don’t know… who did she sleep with,” that kind of thing. Because, back then, I mean women weren’t using protection, we never heard of dental dams or any of that. But we were really careful about women who might sleep with guys. So, you didn’t sleep with a woman who might have slept with guys, because you didn’t know. Actually, now that I say that, there was some paranoia that was going around about it. Like, stick with the people you know. Don’t sleep with somebody you don’t know. Which had not been the case in the ‘70s. In the ‘70s everybody slept with everybody. Nobody used protection, the worst you could get was gonorrhea and you could clear that up pretty easily; there was no herpes, syphilis was very rare—there was nothing that people could get, really. In the ‘70s, I mean, everybody was sleeping with everybody. So, this kind of changed everything even for us too, because there was paranoia about it. I left Birmingham and went to South Florida for five years, my partner and I moved down there after I went back and got another Bachelors. I didn’t get a Masters. And there was homophobia in that program, in the second program I went to. 32:10 SZ: Oh? 32:11 P: The director of the school said that he was going to rid my whole profession of queers. 11 �32:18 SZ: Oh. 32:20 P: So… 32:21 SZ: So, what was your profession? 32:22 P: I did anesthesia for 32 years. I was a nurse anesthetist. So, [the director] came to our school and he said he was gonna rid the profession [of queers]; there were quite a few gay men who were anesthetists and there were quite a few lesbians who went to anesthesia school, and he made the comment he was gonna rid the profession of all the queers. So, my last year in that program was really not fun. He kind of had it out for me the whole time. I had a 4.0 GPA, graduated with honors, and he didn’t give me any recognition for that. 33:11 SZ: Wow. 33:12 P: There was another gay guy in my class, and he and I kind of stuck together, kind of weathered the whole thing. And what was funny, [the director] handpicked the next class, and there were two lesbians in the next class and he didn't know it [laughter]. Like, he thought he could tell who was lesbian and gay, and he didn’t have a clue, but he was going to rid the profession of us. So, thank God my friends were in the class and we ended up sticking together, and we made it through the program. 33:50 SZ: So, where there any queer spaces at either one of those programs you went to? 33:56 P: Yeah, no! 33:59 SZ: Like places where you could find a community? 34:00 P: No, there weren’t [any] at all. When I went to nursing school there were none. This is interesting though, the dean of the nursing school, when I had gotten in drug treatment, he was a 12 �gay guy. And he and I had kind of hit it off when I was there as a student, and I was on an ethics committee and all that before I got all drugged out. I was trying to be good. But for some reason, he took a liking to me. When I got out of drug treatment, I had to re-apply to get back in school, and a lot of the professors didn’t want me there, because of the drugs. And this dean said, “Look, I like you a lot. And I’m going to let you back in this program. You better, by God, not make one mistake, or your ass is out of here.” And I said, “Okay, okay.” So I got back in, because of him. But yeah, I didn’t know any gay people in that program. I knew him, and that was it. There were no gay spaces, there were no gay bookstores, there was nowhere. The only place where anybody met anybody gay was at a bar. 35:36 SZ: Right. 35:37 P: When I got out, of course I didn’t go to any bars anymore and didn’t go anywhere. I met somebody who was actually a sister of one of my mother’s friends when I was little, one of the lesbian women. We thought that was a sign we were supposed to be together. 35:57 SZ: Huh. 35:58 P: So we got together, we moved to South Florida, and that was pretty uneventful. We lived down there for five years. We should’ve never gotten together, that was not a sign [laughter]. And my dysphoria, my discomfort with my body, was getting worse. 36:22 SZ: Huh. 36:23 P: [It got to the point] where I didn’t want anybody looking at me. I didn’t want her looking at me. And I was just getting more and more uncomfortable with my body. So we broke up and nothing really happened down there. We didn’t really have many friends, nobody really knew that we lived together. We just kind of moved in. And you know, everybody is transient in South Florida, so nobody cares what you are or what you’re doing. They don’t even pay attention. So I left there and went to North Carolina. 37:04 SZ: Hm. 13 �37:05 P: I was there for eight years. I met somebody there, we met and moved in [together]. We were together until we moved here, actually. In North Carolina, the people there that I worked with knew that we were living together and all, but it was never talked about. We weren’t very active because neither one of us drank, so we didn’t go to bars and we didn’t really know how to meet other gay people. We knew a few people that we hung out with. Something happened there that had never happened before. We went to eat one day and I had a rainbow flag on the front of the truck and we came out, got in the truck and we were driving home. It was in the summer, and we had the windows rolled down. All these people at the stop lights were yelling, “Dykes! Faggots! Dykes!” and, like, screaming and waving their fists at us and stuff, and we were going, “What happened? That didn’t happen when we drove over here!” [laughter]. Like, what happened between when we got to the restaurant and [started] going home? All of a sudden, at every red light, people were screaming at us. It was really scary. I mean, really scary. 38:35 SZ: Yeah. So what year was this? 38:36 P: This would have been in, probably, 1994. 38:43 SZ: Oh. 38:44 P: It was in Greensboro. So, we get home and somebody had written all over the flag and all over the front of the truck, “I’m a faggot, I’m a dyke,” with lipstick. 39:01 SZ: Wow. 39:02 P: So, we had driven all the way across town with this graffiti on the truck and we didn’t even know it was there [laughter]. But the response was terrible. I mean, people were really screaming at us. And like I said, that had never happened before. I had never had anybody say anything untoward towards me at work or anywhere. Even if they knew, it was never talked about. That was a really scary experience for me, that that would happen, that people would be so bold that they would scream and wave their fists at us and yell at us like that. So that was pretty different, and that would’ve been probably in ‘94. We kind of stayed to ourselves there. Then we decided to move to Virginia 21 years ago. 14 �40:10 SZ: Oh. 40:12 P: An employer that I had worked for in North Carolina moved a little bit north of here and was working in a hospital north of here. She asked me to come up and look around, and we did. Of course, it’s beautiful up there. Then, what was nice about it, before I even came to meet everybody, she told everybody that I was a lesbian. Everybody was fine with it, and we came up and interviewed and went to dinner and everybody was perfectly okay with that, which had been different because it had always been under wraps, or kind of quiet. Nobody ever said anything about it. But everybody at work was okay. We moved up there and we lived in a pretty, I would say it was kind of a famous, house. Everybody up there knew the house, and everybody wanted to live there. So, I bought that house, not knowing that, but that kind of made us a spectacle, because everybody wanted to know who lived in that house. So, at work things are fine, but everywhere we went, people would say, “Ohhh, you’re those women that live in that house.” 41:36 SZ: Huh. 41:37 P: I had a crew cut, had a bunch of tattoos, and it was hot as hell, and we were always wearing sleeveless shirts and stuff. It didn’t go over very well up there in the community. You know, people made comments. 41:54 SZ: Like in what way? 41:56 P: We were just different. I mean, a woman with a crew cut and tattoos kind of stuck out up there, and especially two women living together. We’d go vote and people would say, “Oh so y’all are those women that live in that house.” And [there were] a lot of homophobic comments at work—not directed at me, but about other people. It turned out not to be a very warm place to live or work. I wasn’t very happy with the job. My partner and I were not getting along very well. 42:42 SZ: Oh. 42:43 15 �P: Well, our relationship was pretty much nonexistent; we just lived together. We weren’t really getting along, and it was when the shooting happened, Backstreet, here. We were living up there, and it was in September of 2000 when the shooting happened here [in Roanoke]. I’m sure you know about that, Backstreet. 43:09 SZ: Yeah. 43:10 P: So, we watched all that on the news, and we were very impressed with the response from the community, and with the gay community here. And of course I’m old [and] for years and years it was just the gay and lesbian community. There was no LGBTQ and all that. If I say the gay and lesbian community, I’m not trying to exclude anybody, but that’s what it was for us. We were so impressed with how the gay and lesbian community handled the shooting and how Roanoke seemed to rally around the community. So we decided to move here. We moved here in February of 2001, not too long after the shootings. And of course, MCC, the Metropolitan Community Church, was in the news a lot. 44:17 SZ: Oh? 44:18 P: We had always been excluded from church, so we said, “We want to go there.” So, we started going to the church, got pretty involved in the church there. Because we lived out in the country and had a big porch and all, we were kind of like the hanging out spot for some couples. People would come up here. I’d cook big meals, and I would cut people’s hair on the porch. Eventually I ended up being called ‘Daddy’ by some people. “Let’s check with Daddy about that.” I guess I was emerging more as a [person with] male energy. So yeah, that relationship didn’t last very long. She was very introverted and didn’t work, so when she left I told her to keep going to MCC because we knew some people there, and she didn’t know anybody because she didn’t work and I worked. And I suggested, “Why don’t you just continue to go to MCC and I will just not go there. So that it will be more comfortable.” And I just kind of hung out with the people I worked with. 45:42 SZ: Oh. 45:43 P: People knew about this and knew about us, and knew that we broke up. People at my job were very supportive during that time. 16 �45:56 SZ: Right. 45:57 P: Yeah! So, she left. 46:00 SZ: So how did you… 46:01 PB: Yeah. 46:03 SZ: So, about religion, you had mentioned earlier that in your childhood you kind of felt excluded or that you didn't really fit into religion. 46:10 P: Yeah, I didn’t. I didn’t, and I left the church when I was really young. Then when my grandmother died, I was 39, and I was with the partner that we moved here with. She had never gone to church ever; her family never went to church. My grandmother asked me, when she was dying, she said, “I really wish you would find a church.” It was something that was really important to her, so I said, “Okay.” So, before we moved here, when we were living in North Carolina, there was a new church that opened up and it was right near our house so we said, “Okay, this is a sign. We’re gonna go to this church and just see.” So we went there, we talked to the minister, we told him that we were a lesbian couple and he said, “I don’t care.” So, we were going there for, I don’t know, six or eight months, and my partner was baptized there. She had never been baptized. 47:10 SZ: Oh. 47:12 P: We felt that we were kind of getting into the church thing a little bit. I would say that I was agnostic. Not atheist, but more agnostic, and she was really glad with the whole thing, and was baptized there. Probably a few months after that, the woman who was supposed to take care of the crib babies while they were in church was sick, and the preacher's wife came and asked me if I would take care of the crib babies that morning. I said, “Sure, why not, I’m a nurse, so it’d be perfect.” So, I took care of the babies and on Wednesday, some people knocked on our door and 17 �it was some of the deacons from that church and they said that the church was upset that I took care of the crib babies, and that they never wanted me near their children. 48:09 SZ: Oh, did they say why? 48:11 P: They didn’t like our lifestyle, and they didn’t want us around any of the kids in the church. They had the kid zone—it was like a kid zone where all the nurseries were, and the kid rooms, and all that. And the deacon said, “You can continue to come to the church, but you cannot be even in the kid zone area. Nobody wants you near their children.” 48:38 SZ: Wow. 48:39 P: Yes, and, well, you know what I said? I don’t know if I can say that here, but [I said] “F— you.” So, we quit going, and she kinda missed that, and so when we moved here, and we learned about MCC, and we’d seen the pastor on the news, about the shootings, and we’d seen the church, we thought, “Well, okay, we’ll try this. At least this is a church, where we won’t be asked to leave, because they don’t want us around their kids.” 49:14 So anyway, she ended up hanging out at that church for a little bit; she became agoraphobic, and almost drank herself to death. After 9/11, she got really drunk, and it was kinda sad. I don’t know if she’s okay, now, but anyway… When all that happened, when we broke up and all, I just kinda went underground, and stayed out here in the country by myself. I saw some people transitioning when we moved here, some younger people. And I just thought, I was 40 by then, and I thought, “God, if I were 20, I would do it.” But I was already working here, already had a career, and I really thought that they would fire me if I said that I wanted to transition. I didn’t know anybody personally who transitioned, but I had seen some people around town, where people would say, “Oh look, they’re transitioning.” But, I didn’t know how they did it, or what they did; I just knew that I saw them several months later, and they looked more like a guy, and I thought, “God, I wish… I just wanna do that.” But I was 40, and I thought I was too old. And I was afraid that my job would fire me, so… For twenty years, I sat here, and I worked and I took care of my animals. I really saw nobody. I wanted to transition more and more... And then, in 2019, when I was 60, I could retire from work. 18 �51:21 SZ: Huh 51:22 P: And so I knew that nobody could hurt me anymore, you know? Like, they couldn’t fire me, they couldn’t take away my income because I was eligible for pension. And so I told a good friend of mine that I’d known for 40 years that I wanted to transition, and she said, “I think that’s the smartest thing you’ve ever said in your life. Which was all I needed. I just needed one person to say “yeah.” 52:02 So I went to my boss and I said “I’m gonna retire,” and she asked me why. She said, “You’re too young, and you’re really good at your job, and we really don’t want you to retire. What’s going on?” And I said I’ve wanted to transition for 40 years, and I’ve been too afraid, and now I can retire, and I’m going to retire, so that I can transition. And she said, “Oh no, you’re not. You’re not going to retire. You’re going to stay here, and you’re going to do this here, and we’re going to get you through this. I’ll do everything in my power to make this easy for you.” And she said, “I’m just sorry you waited 60 years to do this.” 52:51 SZ: Wow. So, was everyone as supportive as her at your work? 52:54 P: Yes. It was the most amazing thing I’ve ever witnessed. To go from being a recluse for twenty years who really had nothing to do with people, didn’t really care for people very much. I worked at nights, so I didn’t have to be around people very much… I went to my director and told her, and she said, “It’s fine. How do you wanna deal with this? Do you wanna send a blast email out?” Cause I worked with several hundred people. “Do you want me to blast an email out telling everybody that your new name is Price, and that you are transitioning, or what?” And I said, “No, actually, I would rather talk to everybody in person.” 53:46 And so I did. For a year, I worked there. We figured it out. I had to change clothes at work, so I didn’t want to change clothes with all the women I worked with for all that long, even though they didn’t care. They’re like, “We don’t care if you change clothes with us; we don’t give a shit. We don’t care.” I couldn’t go in the men’s dressing room and change clothes with all the guys I’d worked with for twenty years. I felt like that would be too weird. So, they worked it out that I could change clothes in my boss’s office, and I had a little locker in there that I kept my stuff in, and, for a year, I spoke to everybody in person. 19 �As I worked with people, I worked with surgeons, I worked with anesthesiologists or nurses... I worked in endo, and I worked in radiology, and the cardiac cath lab… All the places that I worked, when I would work there, I would just say “I need to talk to you for a minute.” I would tell them that I changed my name to Price, and that I was transitioning female to male. I was astounded. People told me stories they would have never told me about their own kids, about their uncle, about their cousin… 55:16 It was amazing. It was just—it was really an amazing experience. Before I changed my name legally, they were already putting Price on my card at night when I came into work. They were so excited. And the reason they were so excited, and the reason why they were so accepting, [is because] I had gone from this profoundly sad person to like the happiest person ever. People would see me down the hall, and come down and say, “I could see the difference in you from way down the hall. You are just like a different person.” And people would say, “How can I not be happy for you, when you are so happy?” They went overboard… even some of the really religious people that I was worried about telling were amazing. Nobody judged me. Some people didn’t talk about it very much. Some people would ask me [questions], they felt comfortable asking me questions, and I said, “Look. Ask me anything you wanna ask me. I’m an easy trans person. You’ve known me for twenty years. If you wanna ask me a question, ask me. I’m the person to ask.” And they’d say, “Gosh, we’ve never known a transgender person before.” I would have people come up and say, “Do you mind if I ask you something?” It was really… it was amazing. 57:00 I quickly had top surgery, and a lot of my dysphoria with my body just was totally gone. I walked straighter, stood up taller, and had a lot more confidence, even though there was a period of time—and still, I get misgendered—but there was a period of time where people didn’t know if I was a girl or a boy, or a woman or a man, or whatever, but even in that weird period of time, people treated me so well and were so respectful, and mostly, they just did not wanna make a mistake and say something that would hurt my feelings. They’d say “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say that like that!” and I’d say, “You worked with me for twenty years; it’s hard to change over like a light switch. I get that.” So yeah, it was really an amazing time, and just as a side note, I chose “Price” as my name because of my friend Fred Price who saved my life so many times in high school. He committed suicide when I was twenty. So, I carry him with me, and I sound like it’s emotional, [but] I’m really proud to carry his [name], to have his name... 20 �58:38 So anyway, now I’m getting more involved. I don’t have all the dysphoria that I used to have. I’m not so anxious socially. I could never go anywhere socially before, but now I don’t have that anxiety, like I did. So I’m on the board of SARA [Roanoke] here in town—the sexual assault hotline. They also do counseling. I’m also a crisis counselor for them—or crisis advocate, not a counselor. I’m an advocate, I answer the phone, and then when we get to where we can go to the hospital with assault victims, or whatever, we’ll be going back to the hospital, the police station, with victims. They wanted someone on the board who was transgender, because we know that trans people are assaulted on a regular basis, but they don’t call the crisis line, so we’re trying to figure out why that is. This also gives the trans people or people in the LGBTQ community a safer space to report assault. 1:00:02 SZ: Yeah. 1:00:03 P: I’m also trying to do some stuff for the Diversity Center now. I met some folks down there, so I’m hoping to get— 1:00:12 SZ: The Diversity Center? 1:00:13 P: Yeah, downtown. I’m hoping to get involved— 1:00:17 SZ: Oh, okay. 1:00:18 P: Yeah, it’s not open—well, it’s open some now, but I’m hoping to get more involved with that. I did end up retiring because of COVID. 1:00:30: SZ: Yeah. 1:00:31 P: After a year, I was gonna go to trade school in the spring, but that didn’t happen yet, cause COVID’s still bad, but I retired because of COVID because everybody I cared for was presumed positive and with my age, I just said “I’m done.” But no, coming out… and just saying “I’m transgender” was the most freeing thing that I’ve ever done. I wish I had done it forty years ago. I wish I had not been such a coward. But I’ve never been happier. And I’m trying to find ways to 21 �give back to the community now that I kinda… had deserted, ya know, for most of my life, and had not participated in… But I was amazed at the response I got when I came out. Most people said “Yeah, we knew it all along,” or “yeah, we saw it all along,” or whatever, but it’s not something that somebody comes to you and says, like “hey, I think you ought to be a guy. I think you’d be a better guy.” My friend of forty years now, she’ll say things like, “You really are a guy.” Or “I felt like you dismissed me the other day” or something. I’m like “I didn’t do that…” It’s been very interesting and it’s such a… I think it’s such an asset to have been socialized for so long as a woman. 1:02:13 SZ: Oh? 1:02:14 P: And knowing what women’s issues are intimately, and now, getting to be on the other side, sort of. 1:02:29 SZ: So, what about the community now? You had mentioned trying to be more involved. Have you found any LGBTQ spaces? 1:02:38 P: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve met some trans men, who have taken me under their wing. They transitioned many years ago, most of them, but they said “You know, you kinda can be an honorary member because of your age. You’re 62. You’ve been around for a long time, and you’ve lived in isolation for so long… and we don’t think it’s right that you don’t have a community of guy friends to hang out with.” So, they’ve kinda taken me under their wing. They’re going on a camping trip in June. I hope that I can go on the camping trip with them, because I missed all the socialization as a guy. Ya know, I didn’t have guy friends to hang out with. I didn’t have guy friends to do things with. It’s kinda hard when you’re 62… 1:03:32 SZ: Right. 1:03:33 P: … to make guy friends. But these guys have been amazing; they said, “we just want you to be part of our group. You deserve that.” And I’ve also met a couple of gay guys that I’ve had outside lunches with, and stuff like that. I never would have done [that] before. They’re trying to give me tips on how to do my hair more like a guy, and that kind of thing. I’m learning! I’m just learning all this stuff, you know? I mean I’ve got the clothes down, ‘cause I always wore men’s clothes. But I had lunch with a gay friend the other day, and he said “Dude, you gotta do something about your hair. It’s just borderline girly.” And so I came home and buzzed it, and did 22 �it like he said, and I feel better, and for the last few days, when I’ve gone places, I was called “sir,” which is always a big deal for a trans person. 1:04:39 SZ: Yeah 1:04:40 P: It feels bad to be misgendered, even if you don’t look so much like a guy, but still, when someone calls you “sir,” it’s very validating. So, yeah, I’ve done that, and I went to the Diversity Center, and met some folks down there. That I’m going to… 1:04:57 SZ: Yeah. 1:04:58 P: …try to do some things with. No, I feel like my life is full. I used to say all the time, “I don’t feel connected to my life. I don’t feel connected to my body. I don’t feel invested in my life.” I mean, I did my life. I worked. I paid the bills. I took care of things. But I had no joy. Like I couldn’t even understand why people would get so excited about going on a vacation, you know, how people say, “Oh, we’re going on a vacation in a week,” and I’d think, “So?” Or, putting up Christmas décor—any just, normal things that people would do, that they’d get excited about. I didn’t have any of that joy, like, I just was kind of drab and dead, just… existing. 1:05:59 SZ: Huh. 1:06:00 P: I wasn’t connected to my life, you know? There was nothing about my life that validated who I was. I was always hidden. 1:06:06 SZ: Oh. 1:06:07 P: And invisible. “Don’t look at me,” and “don’t hear me,” and I didn’t take up any space in the world. I was just here. And it’s really interesting at 62 to be all of a sudden realizing that I do have a space in the world. 1:06:28 SZ: Yeah. 1:06:30 P: And that there is a lot of joy. Yeah. 23 �1:06:31 SZ: Yeah. 1:06:33 P: Yeah. 1:06:34 SZ: So how about actual spaces? Like, have you begun visiting gay bars or— 1:06:38 P: No. 1:06:39 SZ: —anything like that? 1:06:40 P: Yeah, no, I haven’t, but I do hope to get involved more, like I said, with the Diversity Center, and meet some more people… 1:06:48 SZ: Right. 1:06:49 P: — in the community. And, you know, learn about things that need to be done as far as… of course, right now, thank God we have Biden in office, but all of the backlash is… 1:07:05 SZ: Yeah. 1:07:05 P: … really, really scary. I mean, even for me, like, am I gonna be able to get healthcare? Am I gonna be able to get hormones? You know, those kinds of things. I have a young trans man friend who’s seventeen, you know? Like, what’s gonna happen to him? 1:07:32 SZ: Yeah. 1:07:33 P: I have another friend who’s twenty-four; what’s gonna happen to him, you know? Like, all the legislation that’s been brought up just by Biden’s election, it really sends people scurrying, and afraid. My primary care physician I had for twelve years when I came out said “I don’t wanna see you anymore.” 24 �1:08:01 SZ: Wow. Wy? 1:08:04 P: So I’ve had to scramble around for healthcare myself, and being a mid-level healthcare provider that was well-respected as a sixty-year-old woman, all of a sudden, I’m a sixty-year-old trans man, and it’s been hard. It’s been— 1:08:24 SZ: Yeah. 1:08:24 P: —very difficult. So there are a lot of issues facing not just the trans community, but the LGBTQ everybody community. My non-binary friends… I’m more and more aware of their issues; what kind of issues they have socially, medically. So, there are a lot of things that are now coming to the forefront that I feel like I can find my niche and try to figure out what it is I can do to help my community. I always speak up. 1:09:04 SZ: Yeah. 1:09:06 P: I’ve had things happen to me that I couldn’t let go, you know. That I would have to call and say “Look, I’m saying this because I’m transgender, and what you’ve done here is transphobic.” And I can let that go, sort of on my own, but I’m not gonna… 1:09:25 SZ: Oh. 1:09:25 P: ,,, let it go because I can’t let it go for my trans friends who are coming after me. 1:09:34 SZ: Yeah… What kinds of experiences have you had? 1:09:40 P: So like, I rolled my money out of Carilion when I retired, out of the retirement fund into a private financial place, and I’m not really financial-oriented, but I moved all of the money out of Carilion into another private thing, and I gave them this pretty nice check, and they had only ever known me as Price. They had my driver’s license, my social security card. My taxes were filed in my new name. Everything they had ever seen had my new name on it, and they called me and said they couldn’t deposit the check. 25 �1:10:21 SZ: Oh. 1:10:21 P: And I said “Why can’t you deposit the check?” And they said, “Well, we need documentation, and we need the court-order showing that your name had been changed.” 1:10:32 SZ: Huh. 1:10:33 P: And I said “I don’t think so. I don’t think so.” I said, “You have every piece of I.D. that you have—bank accounts, everything, social—all that has my name on it. There’s no reason for you to have to see a court order saying that my name was changed, and I think that you’re being transphobic. I think you’re asking me to go beyond what you would ask somebody else who changed their name because of marriage, or whatever.” And I said, “I’m not gonna give you that document, because I’ve already been vetted by the DMV, I’ve been vetted by Social Security. I’ve been vetted by all these other places, and I don’t need to give you that information.” And I said, “I’ll just come and pick up my check.” 1:11:27 SZ: Yeah. 1:11:28 P: And she said, “Okay.” And, about ten minutes [later], the guy that was in charge of my money called me, and he said, “Price, we don’t need that piece of paper.” And I said “I didn’t think you did.” 1:11:45 SZ: Huh. 1:11:46 P: And, so, those kinds of things. I made an appointment with the doctor, and my name had changed, and they wanted my proof of my name change. I said, “I don’t need to give you that.” My insurance card has my new name. My driver’s license has my new name. You don’t need to see that, and so you know what they did, being, I guess, one of those microaggressions that people do? They sent me a prescription to my deadname. 1:12:17 SZ: Oh. 1:12:20 P: And so I called them, and I said, “How do you suppose I should get this prescription filled?” 26 �1:12:28 SZ: Oh, right. 1:12:29 P: “You sent it to my deadname. I have nothing that has my deadname on it. Nothing. Everything I have has my new name on it. So how would you think I could get this prescription filled, with that on there?” And I said, “You’re very—what you’re doing is not okay. You’ve asked for court documentation of a name change; you don’t need that. My insurance card says, you know, the same thing, blah blah blah blah blah.” I said, “You don’t need it.” And she said, “Yes, sir, you’re right. We don’t need it. And where can I send the prescription to that you can pick it up.” She fixed it real quick. But so, it’s those— 1:13:11 SZ: Wow. 1:13:11 PB: —kinds of things. It’s just things that people think they can get away with, until you call them on it. 1:13:17 SZ: Right. 1:13:18 P: And I’m not a confrontational person, but in every instance like that, I feel like I have to step up and say, “No, this isn’t right. It’s not right for me, and it’s not right for my twenty-four-year old friend that you might meet later. It’s not okay.” 1:13:35 SZ: Yeah. 1:13:36 P: “What you’re doing is not okay. I don’t know if you’re doing it because you’re curious, or because you don’t like the fact that I’m trans, or why you’re doing it, but you’re not gonna get away with it.” So... I feel like I have to be on guard a lot of the time. 1:13:53 SZ: Huh. 1:13:54 P: Any time you’re dealing with another agency or another office, or you know. Because it’s invariably… something’s gonna come up. Until maybe one day, you know, five years down the road, when my deadname doesn’t show up on something. Like, I went to get an x-ray, and it was an ancillary. My chart at Carilion says “Price,” and it has my male gender marker on there, but I 27 �went to get an x-ray, and it showed up my deadname, with the female marker, and the girl handled it well. 1:14:30 SZ: Oh. 1:14:31 P: She goes, “Mr. Brown, could I ask you a question?” And I said, “Sure.” She goes, “Did you change your name recently?” [laughter] And I said, “Yeah.” And she said, “I apologize, but it hasn’t been changed on all the ancillary offices.” But she was really nice about it. 1:14:53 SZ: Oh. 1:14:54 P: She didn’t make a big deal about it. She figured out what was going on, and she wasn’t gonna make a spectacle of me. So I can handle that. 1:15:06 SZ: Right. 1:15:06 P: But people are learning. I usually never get angry. I might get a little forceful, sometimes. Like, “No, you don’t need that.” But, yeah, I feel like you have to constantly kind of be on guard for that kind of thing, so… 1:15:26 SZ: Yeah. 1:15:27 PB: It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s worth it. Yeah. 1:15:34 SZ: Right, so kind of related to that, you were talking about healthcare and that sort of thing. How has it been for you aging as someone who is newly trans? And, how do you see that, because you used to be in the medical field? How do you see that process of aging as LGBTQ? 1:15:48 P: Yeah, it was really sad when I first started transitioning. I would look in the mirror and all I could see was an old man and I just felt like, ‘Why did you wait until you saw this old man looking back at you?’ 1:16:04 28 �SZ: Oh. 1:16:05 P: There have been some health issues. For one thing, I have been bounced around a lot for the past year. I've gone from doctor to doctor because they either have been disrespectful or did things that were not okay or said some terrible things to me. Finally, I found some decent doctors. As far as my transition, we just kind of confirmed this with this new doctor I went to last week who was absolutely wonderful and apologized for all the other horrible things that people have done and were said to me. But he just said, “You’re asking a 62 year old body a lot, to go through another puberty,” which is pretty much what happens when you transition. I started taking testosterone about a year and a half ago, and it’s like going through puberty when you’re 12 years old again. You know, I had a bunch of acne to deal with, that was just crazy. I’m 61 years old and I’m dealing with acne and I’m asking my young friends, “How do you get rid of this shit?” 1:17:22 SZ: [laughter] 1:17:23 P: [You hear] your voice changing, your voice is changing and cracking, doing all that. So that’s really different, but it’s also what I wanted all my life. I wanted to be… I wanted to look more like I look right now. However, as an older person—we were talking about it just this week—my transition is slower than my young friends. They have seen a lot of changes more quickly than I have. They have more of a beard, they have more body hair, you know, their legs. If I have on shorts, or something, I still look like I’m a girl shaving my legs. I don't have a lot of hair on my legs. So, my transition is slower and he [my doctor] informed me this week that it may take a really long time for me to reach the point where my body looks exactly like I picture it would look in my mind. Because it is gonna be slower; my body just doesn’t change as quickly as a young guy. I’ve been dealing with that, and that’s really okay. That was kind of to be expected, I think, that I wasn’t just going to overnight become the Hulk or something… I’m never gonna be a buff guy. I think in my mind when I first started, I thought, ‘Oh, I’m gonna get all buff.’ Well, that's not gonna happen. I’m 62 years old, but I look around at other cisgender 62 year old men and I think, ‘Well I don't look any worse than most of them.’ That's kind of mean to say, but it is some consolation. I'm okay. I’m not ashamed of my body anymore and I’m not ashamed to go in public, I’m not ashamed to walk into a place and be automatically lumped with the women. I didn't know what to say to the women. No one has ever been to my house that I work with, ever. Because I have camping chairs in my living room, that's my furniture, and I’m perfectly fine with it. I don't care that there are camping chairs in my living room, but most 62 year old women I know don't have camping chairs in their living room for their furniture, and camping stools and stuff. But it works for me and that's fine. So I don't have to hide anymore. Now, if someone came 29 �to my house they just go, “Oh okay, you got camping chairs, cool.” A couple years ago somebody came to my house and they think, “Why does a 62 year old woman have camping chairs in her house?” 1:20:54 SZ: [laughter] 1:20:56 P: So, it’s just made all the difference in the world to me. And I’m so happy for my younger trans men friends who are able to go ahead and do this when they’re younger and their bodies will change and look like they want to look. And if they want to have more surgeries, they can do that. They can be socialized as guys. I mean, I see these 20 year old guys I know and they’re out running around with 20 year old guys, doing guy things and having fun. I never got any of that. So, there’s a lot of grief that goes with the ‘would have,’ ‘should have,’ ‘could have’—what my life could have been like. I always wanted a wife and kids and a regular life. I didn’t want to have kids; I wanted a wife that would have kids. Growing older with my colleagues, you know, their kids are going to college and graduating to college and they’re getting married and they’re having grandkids. There’s some grief in that. I wish I had had that. But I can’t dwell on that. I have to do what I can to be happy and to help other people. Hopefully, someone will hear my story and it will resonate with them and maybe they won’t wait so long. 1:22:35 SZ: Yeah. So, do you have any other friends who are older and trans, or members of the broader LGBTQ [community]? 1:22:40 P: So, when I first came out, I tried to break into a trans group here. It’s mostly—well this is my feelings and I was probably being over sensitive—I felt like it was mostly dominated by some trans women. Of course, it was a virtual space cause it was [during] COVID and I haven't met these people face to face. I didn't feel very welcome, to be honest, and… I was trying to become an activist but really didn’t know what to do. Okay, you know you walk onto something… I’m a walk on, I’m 60 something years old. I haven’t been trans [for very long]. I haven’t dealt with these issues my whole life. I always presented as a woman and I was always respected as a midlevel provider and I didn't have any problems really in my life. So, I didn't want to be a walk-on advocate and be like, “Okay, here I am now. I know everything and let’s fix it.” That’s not the way to do it. I never had that attitude about it, but I felt like when I would offer information in these spaces that I would constantly be challenged by these people. Like, prove it. “Prove what you’re saying. Tell us who did you talk to… We want to know, and we want to ask them.” I’m thinking, I’m 60 years old, I’m a professional. I’m not gonna lie about stuff. I’m just trying to pass on information that I thought might be helpful to people. I kind of got my feelings hurt a 30 �little bit and I don’t know if they… I didn’t ever mean to go into that space with an attitude, [acting] like I knew everything because I don’t. It’s hard to tell when you're just typing and you’re not seeing somebody face to face and you’re not talking to them, you know, what their intentions are, if they’re trying to be a know-it-all and tell you what to do. That wasn’t how it was offered. I didn’t feel very welcomed so I just kind of backed out of that. 1:25:28 SZ: Do you think it was because of your age or just the group? 1:25:32 P: I don’t know. I’ve heard from other people that the trans community here is kind of cliquey. A little bit cliquey. And never having been a joiner—I never joined stuff because I was such a loner—it wasn’t that important to me to join that community. So, when I got shot down a couple of times with the things that I would offer as information in that way, I just kind of said “F--that.” I’ll just figure it out on my own. But, now that I’m more comfortable with myself... and with COVID, I got vaccinated this week, I got my first vaccine… hopefully I’ll be able to move into some spaces that are not virtual, where I can actually meet some people, so that they can see that my intention is not to take over anything. I do feel like I have a place and an obligation to speak up for my community. 1:25: 51 SZ: Yeah. 1:26:53 P: Yeah. 1:26:55 SZ: Yeah, so just thinking about your life overall and how it is different now, what do you think about the new developments? The increased visibility of the LGBTQ community, the new acronym, and the Internet as a space for them to connect. What are your thoughts on that? 1:27:15 P: Yeah, it’s amazing. Like I said, I think I've learned most [now]…. when I even came out there was no Internet. There was nothing. When I came out lesbian in the ‘70s… I don’t even know when I got Internet. I think it was close to 2000, 20 years ago, and it was awful. It was Prodigy and it was dial-up, it was awful. I think it’s amazing that people can find themselves on the internet now. You can find people who look like you and who have your story. You don’t have to spend 20 years fumbling around out there trying to figure it out on your own and figuring out, “What’s wrong with me? Why am I like this?” Like I said, there was no word ‘transgender.’ There was nothing. I just thought I was a boy until people pointed out the fact that I wasn't. And 31 �then I went, “Oh okay, well I guess I have to act like I’m supposed to, then,” which was horrible. But yeah, the whole visibility thing. I just feel like the suicide rate in the trans community is higher than anything. If we can just save one more person and not lose another person because of ignorance or whatever. Like I said, I never knew any non-binary people and now I know [several]. I’m close to several non-binary people and I learn something from them every day about what they have to deal with. And what they deal with is sometimes a lot worse than what I deal with, so I need to support those people and speak up for those people too. Those friends of mine, they’re awesome people, and I think it’s great that people have the ability to be who they are, to express themselves however they want. More and more people are talking about the difference between… you know, nobody knew the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation and gender expression. Nobody heard about that before, and now people are talking about it. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I think for me, one of the biggest things is, whatever parts you have, it doesn't really matter. 1:30:25 SZ: Ah… 1:30:26 P: You know, it just doesn't really matter. Your gender is in your head. 1:30:30 SZ: Yeah. 1:30:33 P: So, that has opened up a lot of things for me. I had somebody ask me on my non-binary friend’s site… we were talking about something and a woman asked me, “What parts do you have?” And I’m thinking, ‘Hmm, how am I gonna answer that?’ It took me a while to come up with an answer for it, without just being mean to her. But people are really hung up on that, like the whole bathroom issue. The whole women’s trans sports issue. They’re hung up on what body parts you have and that has nothing to do with anything [laughter]. 1:31:17 SZ: Right. 1:31:18 P: Yeah, so… I’m really happy about it… I’m happy that I jumped in when I did. 1:31:28 SZ: Right. 32 �1:31:30 P: A lot of really brave people came before me, and I’m always grateful for them, that they had the courage to do this when I was too scared, I was too afraid. 1:31:43 SZ: Yeah. 1:31:44 P: So, yeah, I owe a lot to the people who came before me. I have a lot of gratitude for those people. So, I hope that I can be that for somebody else, you know? And also be somebody that someone older, who’s thinking about transitioning, that has wanted to transition and thinks they’re too old...You’re not too old! It’s doable. It may not be as quick as it would have been, but it’s doable, and the change in my life has been… I’m a whole person now, and I was never a whole person. 1:32:25 SZ: Oh. 1:32:26 P: Yeah. So, yeah. It’s been an awesome journey! [laughter] 1:32:33 SZ: It sounds like it. 1:32:34 P: Yeah, it has been. 1:32:36 SZ: Well, yeah… well, that’s all the questions I had, unless there’s something else that you wanted to share, that we didn’t get a chance to… 1:32:39 P: No, I feel like I talked your ear off. I’m sorry if I talked your ear off, I didn’t mean to. 1:32:47 SZ: No, no. 1:32:48 B: I’ve enjoyed doing it, and thank you very much for spending this time with me today. I know you have another class. I hope I didn’t run you over. 33 �1:33:00 SZ: No, you’re good. 1:33:01 P: Okay 1:33:02 SZ: Yeah, thanks so much for talking with us too, I’m sure that people are going to really enjoy listening to your story and learning about [your experiences] … because I think it’s pretty rare to transition as an older person, so… 1:33:14 P: Yeah, I know there’s a couple of people in town who transitioned a little later. 1:33:24 SZ: Huh. 1:33:25 P: And I meet people online in groups a lot who are in their forties and they’re thinking that they’re too old. 1:33:31 SZ: Oh. 1:33:32 P: And I’m always the first to say, no you’re not. No, you’re not. You’re not too old. If it’s going to make you happy, it’s going to make your life better, your life fuller… I mean, the way I relate to people is so different now. 1:33:48 SZ: Yeah 1:33:49 P: There’s no way to describe it. So, if someone hears this and is inspired to go ahead and do it, that’s what I’m about. Yeah. 1:34:07 SZ: Yeah. 34 �1:34:12 P: Anyway, thank you, Steph! 1:34:13 SZ: Alright, well thank you so much. 1:34:14 P: I hope you have a good afternoon, thanks a lot. 1:34:17 SZ: You as well. 1:34:18 P: Okay, bye. END. 35 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Price Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Price Interviewer: Steph Zemba Interviewee: Price Date: 18 March 2021 Location: Online via Zencastr Duration: 94:18 Transcription prepared by: Erica Gudino, Hannah Brotton, Charlie, Steph Zemba, and Alexus Smith Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 March 2021 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Price, Steph Zemba, Erica Gudino, Hannah Brotton, Charlie, Steph Zemba, and Alexus Smith Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Price https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5825/RossShamaill.mp3 a3d00c9c3e58c49a2ccfa991ece4eaed https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5825/RossShamaill.1.pdf 16c33b7ebd60c5a327722627ac8c06fb PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Shamaill Ross March 23, 2021 Interviewer: Michelle Ogutu Interviewee: Shamaill Ross Date: March 23, 2021 Location: online via Zencastr Transcribed by Liz Ragsdale, Avery Monahan, and Alejandra Carino Total Duration: 1:19:43 Index: 0:00 = Childhood in the Philippines and in Roanoke, Virginia (1980s) 2:45 = segregation in Roanoke and busing; attending Patrick Henry High School (mid-1990s) 5:43 = attending Ferrum College (late 1990s – early 2000s); organizing entertainment events at the college 12:26 = discovering her sexuality while attending law school in Pittsburgh (2000s) 19:23 = the role of the Internet in shaping understandings of herself (2000s) 22:04 = coming out, first as bisexual, then as lesbian 30:12 = the impact of widely reported anti-gay violence in the late 1990s / early 2000s 36:20 = dealing with her mom’s passing (mid-2000s); coming out to her mom earlier 45:36 = relationships with friends and family after coming out 48:36 = navigating the workplace as an out gay person 54:27 = first queer sexual experiences (2000s) 59:27 = meeting her current partner 1:03:40 = attending therapy 1:05:12 = involvement with local LGBTQ organizations; the Drop-In Center; the House of Expression 1:10:07 = issues that face people of color in LGBTQ spaces 1:13:43 = generational differences in LGBTQ communities 0:00 MO: Hello. This is Michelle Ogutu interviewing Shamaill Ross. It is March the 23rd, 2021. We are currently interviewing through Zencastr. This is for the Southwest Virginia [LGBTQ+] Oral History Project. Okay Shamaill, tell us a little bit about yourself. 0:18 1 �SR: I think there’s so many things to say, right? I am a 40-year-old Black woman who was raised here in Roanoke, Virginia, but I was born in San Diego, California. My mother was in the Navy, so we did a little travel a little earlier in my life but eventually it led back here to Roanoke where my mother was born and raised. I grew up in the school systems here, so I went to Fairview Elementary, Addison Middle School, and Patrick Henry High School. And then I went to undergrad at Ferrum (College) where I got a degree in political science and social work and I have been employed at All-State for about sixteen years this past Friday. 1:24 MO: Ok, wow very interesting. So, when did you move back to the Roanoke Valley area? I know you mentioned that before. 1:33 SR: Yeah, so after being born in San Diego—and I’d really love to say that that was a very long stay, but I think I was there for three days—my mother came back to Roanoke and was stationed in the Philippines. So, she dropped me here with family after having me and then she was stationed in the Philippines and once she got settled there she sent back for me. So, I was in the Philippines for about 18 months to two years and then we came back to the states and did some short stays in North Carolina and then we came back to Roanoke after my mom went into the reserves and was no longer active duty. 2:14 MO: Okay, that’s very interesting. Do you think that the traveling affected who you were as a child and also just growing up in your teens? 2:24 SR: I don’t think so because I think I was so little that I don’t really remember much of it. There were times where I would really impress my mom because I would ask her certain questions and she’d say, “How did you remember that? You were so small.” It’s not something that really impacted my life growing up here because we seemed very stationary for a very long time. 2:45 MO: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And how was your high school experience here at Roanoke? 2:50 SR: So, school was really good. I had a lot of friends, I was a little weird, but I think that all of us were a little weird when we were in our prepubescent to pubescent stages. It was a little different as far as the transition from elementary school, middle school, to high school because Roanoke at that time was still a little segregated. So, after middle school—I went to Lucy Addison, which is a predominantly Black middle school—but I lived in the William Fleming district and they were trying to diversify Patrick Henry, so there were several of my friends who got bused to PH to help with their numbers and diversity because a lot of those students would have ended up at William Fleming just because of how the districts were set up. So, my mom was okay with that because, number one, she went to Patrick Henry so she was like “you will go where I went.” 2 �4:10 MO: Yeah [laughter]. 4:11 SR: So, she definitely wanted us to be Patriots. So, we were sorta bused over to PH even though that was not the district that we were in. 4:15 MO: Yeah, that makes sense. And how was that experience, especially just being a minority in that school? 4:20 SR: It wasn’t bad, just because being on a bus with other students who you’d always gone to school with, you never really felt isolated because you knew the people in your neighborhood who were also going over to PH for their education. So it didn’t really feel as segregated as it sounds. So, I think I got a really good education at PH and I think that there were some opportunities there that I took full advantage of. Not saying that I wouldn’t have gotten them at Fleming, it’s just that there were opportunities there that I took advantage of. 5:05 MO: Yes. 5:06 SR: I don’t think there was much of an impact there, but I think it definitely prepared me for undergrad, because Ferrum had a very low number of minority students there so having had the experience at PH it was an easier transition for me to go to Ferrum because the demographic looks very similar. 5:43 MO: Yes, yes that is true. And how was your experience transitioning from the Roanoke area into Ferrum? Especially just being in the South? 5:52 SR: [laughter] So I laugh because… so I know that there are a lot of people, especially people who grew up in this area, that who don’t look at Roanoke as a city or a bigger city or a metropolitan area. But when you compare it to the rural areas, it definitely is, so there was a bit of a culture shock there because at that time, that was about twenty years ago at this point, Ferrum was not as developed as it is now. So, the only thing that we had out that way was a little gas station store and then you had to ride 20-25 minutes into like the Walmart. And that was like all you had. 6:33 MO: Wow. 6:34 3 �SR: So, if you didn’t have a car that was a totally different experience and then two, there were people who were into agriculture, who grew up on farms and stuff and, you know, I was used to concrete living. You know, we were more used to a concrete jungle and those folks were more used to—a lot of those folks—were more used to nature and farming so there were a lot of things that I did not understand when it came down to lived experience for some of my classmates and stuff. So that was a bit of a culture shock. 7:05 MO: Yes, I can only imagine. Did you feel comfortable at this school? How was your experience just transitioning and staying there? 7:14 SR: It was really good, because I think that there was really nothing for you to get in trouble doing. So I think that that was really, you know, helpful, not that I was ever one to get into trouble but it was like, you know, the only focus that you really had was your schoolwork and it was just a constant reminder of “this is what you’re here for,” you’re here to get an education. And you find your opportunities to create your own fun, and I think that those were the life lessons that I took away from that experience. Because, you know, the minority population at Ferrum was so small a lot of times the activities and things that they would have on campus we couldn’t see ourselves reflected in. So, it was one of those things where when you don’t have folks who are asking for different types of activities, then you sort of just do the same things over and over again, right? 8:39 MO: Yeah. 8:40 SR: So, the one thing that we recognize is that we have to use our voices and speak our needs but then at the same time we have to actively be a part of the change that we want to see. So, one thing that I did was joined a lot of the organizations. So, they have Panther Productions, which is the activity programing group for campus, and then I encouraged a lot of my friends to join because I was like “I could go and speak for us. But if we all go, then that’s a louder voice.” 9:05 MO: Yes. 9:07 SR: So, I got a bunch of my friends to join so that we could, you know, be a part of the programming and not just have, you know, folks who think that they are hearing what our needs are but we could actively be a part of making the change. So, that was a really good start to activism. Whether it’s, you know, being an activist for myself or being an activist for my community. That was where I sort of cut my teeth, in that space. I was really impressed with some of the things that we were able to do over the three years that I was an active part of that. Where we got to—at that time, 102 Jamz in Greensboro was like one of the big radio stations. So, for them to come to Ferrum and host a party live. 4 �9:51 MO: Wow! 9:56 SR: [laughter] And to have some bigger name artists, like we had the Roots come. What? 10:01 MO: Wow! How was that? 10:02 SR: I know, right? So the Roots came to Ferrum and it was like, people were like “what in the world are y’all doing?” but it was just because, you know, we showed them, like we can get people to come. And for those of us who were based out of Roanoke or surrounding areas, you know, we would just put in a call to our friends back home and say “we need y’all to come and flood, like come in masses and bring carloads and loads up here.” So that we can show people that it’s not just us asking for things but just understanding that, you know, the entertainment that we like is a part of popular culture as well. So, like, people will come if we have it. So, what we started to do was just inviting all kinds of people to come up to the different activities. We found that the student population, a lot of times what would happen was they would leave campus during the weekends but they started to stay on campus because the activities were ones that they enjoyed and they didn’t have to go, you know, all the way to Greensboro or all the way to [Virginia] Tech or Radford to be able to enjoy themselves. They could do it at their own home campus. Then, you know, you bring the townies in or you bring people from the surrounding communities in, and you just add to the numbers. And then money, you know, money matters. You charge 10, you know, 15 dollars at the door and we were able to say “we brought people but also look, this event paid for itself.” 11:25 MO: Yes, yes that is true. That’s really amazing. I’m really honestly just shocked by that. Do you feel like that experience really kind of just shaped you into the activist that you are now? 11:32 SR: I think it did, because it showed how a collective of people can bring about change, right? So it showed where one person can be the spark but a collective of people can be the fire, and to be able to go back to campus now and see how the numbers as far as diversity have improved, how the activities have improved, and seeing people stay on campus. Like, you know, I think a little piece of that, I sort of… I’m like “maybe I started a little bit of that,” you know? So, I see myself there and, you know, hopefully those things that we started continued and have helped the college to continue and help with diversity efforts. Because it’s a really good school. It’s a really, really good school, but you know there has to be a good mix of quality education but at something that is enticing for students to stay on campus and be a part of campus culture. 12:26 MO: Yes. Yes, no, that is very true. Especially here at Roanoke [College], that is something that we are also striving to do. Apart from being involved in those activities, were you ever part of anything with the LGBTQ+ community at that college? Did they have anything at that time? 5 �12:44 SR: So, they did, but at that time I was still finding myself. So, I think that while I knew that I felt a little different I don’t know that I had a name or a title for it. I know that there has been a transition in time. I’m not saying that everybody in 2021 feels open and out and yelling it from the rooftops but it was… you didn’t see it as much back, you know, twenty years ago on campus. So, at that point I was sort of focusing on the other intersection of myself and that was making sure that the Black community felt loved and supported and uplifted on campus. So, I didn’t really have much involvement in any of the LGBT issues on campus. 13:48 MO: Okay. I mean that makes sense, like college is still a time where we’re trying to figure ourselves out. When did you begin to realize that you weren’t straight? Was it during your college years or more so after when you graduated? 14:04 SR: So, I think it’s one of those things that I talk about with my friends a lot. I think you come out to yourself several times before you actually have that real conversation with yourself. It started for me really early. So maybe when I was about five or so, there was a little girl that I thought was really pretty and I was wondering like… You know those fairytales that you tell yourself about like “Oh! You know, we could get married!” But then that just didn’t feel like that was an okay thing. Right? So, it was something that you sort of suppressed and said “I can just think that,” to myself, for this moment, but then I have to sort of tuck that away and you better not say that out loud. 14:49 MO: Yeah. 14:50 SR: And then I think that in different parts of my life that sort of popped up, and I would just sort of suppress it. But not until after I graduated from Ferrum and I went to law school at Duquesne (University) in Pittsburgh. And I think the difference between the time at Ferrum and the time at Duquesne was that while at Ferrum I was 45, 55 minutes away from home, and plus I was on campus with people that I went to high school with, so I was surrounded with people that I knew and so I was always busy, right? 15:38 MO: Yeah. 15:39 SR: And there was always something to do. But when I was at Duquesne and Pittsburgh being the furthest that I had even been away from home by myself, without a supportive family, you spend a lot of time with yourself and a lot of time having conversation with yourself. And at the point I couldn’t suppress it because there was nothing to suppress it with. So, I was like, you know, this has come up many times in my life so maybe it’s time for me to have an honest conversation with myself about what these feeling are. 6 �16:11 MO: Yes, makes sense. Sorry, just going back a little bit, do you feel like something triggered you into having this conversation or did you just, you know, decide “hey, like this is the time that I really need to think and talk about this to myself?” 16:30 SR: I think it was just loneliness. So, while I am an extrovert now, that was not always the case and I was a little shy and then being in Pittsburgh… like, its different because I don’t hear it but sometimes other people do, the accent, cause I can get real Southern real quick, and you sort of feel like a little bit of an outsider because, you know, there are things that are done in the South that are a little different than other places, so, you know, you sort of feel like an outsider. And the only thing you do is find solace within yourself because that’s familiar, right? And so, I think it was just one of those things where all these different feelings of like, what kind of woman do you want to be, and there were a lot of life decisions that I had to think about at that time, and that was just one of the feelings that came up, and it was just like “okat, what is this? What is this feeling that you’ve been suppressing all these years and what do we do with it?” 17:30 MO: Yes. Yes, no, that makes a lot of sense. How did the conversation start? Because you said that you did have to come to a point where you had to really address how you were feeling. 17:40 SR: So, it was interesting, because I hadn’t really thought about it until you asked that question just now, but the first memory that came up was everything was under the cover of darkness. So, I’m in this room, 100% by myself, and I was one of [a] few law students who lived in the dorm. So, a lot of people had apartments and stuff like that. I was not ready for that phase of my life yet. So, I lived on a sorority floor and then there’s me, the one lone little brown girl at the end of the hall or whatever, and I just happened to look into having a room by myself and the internet was… it was not the internet of now but it was this new thing where you could explore and you know… But you were always fearful that someone could see you or that somebody would watch. So, I would cut the lights off in my room and sort of like Google things and look up stuff and try to figure out what does being a lesbian mean, or what do the letters for LGBTQ—like what does that mean? But it was all me sitting in the dark in just the glow of my computer screen on my face [laughter]. And I laugh at it now because I’m like “girl, who did you think was watching you? It’s just you in a room.” But it was, you know, a totally different time then. 19:23 MO: Yeah, no that makes a lot of sense and plus, when you are trying to figure out who you are, you do have to do the research yourself and just try to figure it out on your own. Do you feel like the internet helped you a lot with that? 19:37 SR: I think it did, and I think it made me feel a little bit more normal, that there were other people like me in the world. Because, like, I had always been—and I use air quotes, because it makes me roll my eyes now when people use the term “tomboy,” like “oh, she was a tomboy” 7 �because like I was really into sports, and like, you know, don’t give me another doll. Don’t try to put me in a dress. That type of thing. And the internet allowed me to see that there were other people who showed up in the world the same way that I wanted to, and that brought a sense of peace because I think back at home, while I know that there were other lesbians now, at the time I did not know. Anyone who identified that way or the folks who did, they, you know, they didn’t represent the way that I do—more masculine presenting, or in Black culture, you know, a stud comparing to like a butch woman for the term that I’ve heard more white masculine presenting women feel comfortable with that term. 20:56 MO: Yeah. Yeah, no that is true, and like, I know it has been a while, but can you think back to anything on the internet particularly that helped you? Any websites, any persons that really helped you during this time when you were trying to figure out who you were? 21:09 SR: Umm no, I think it was just, I don’t know if it was any particular person or thing. It was just like, I think a lot of it was like style of dress, you know, was the first thing. Like it was okay for me to dress the way that I felt comfortable. I think that is the thing that stuck out. It wasn’t a particular person that I was like “oh, I wanna mimic that.” But I think it was just seeing a style of dress that really felt comfortable to me first. So, that was the initial thing. Because within my household, you know, my mom would critique me a lot, like “why do you wanna dress like that?” You know, “why can’t you look like a girl? Why can’t you show up this way?” It just didn’t feel natural, you know, to me. It didn’t feel authentic at all. 22:04 MO: Yes. Yes, no, that’s true, because again, you do like come to terms and you develop in your own time and while you were doing this, how did it make you feel as you were coming to terms with yourself and your sexuality? 22:25 SR: It was scary. It was extremely scary, and I think I almost used a curse word just now because it was really scary. Because, you know, you hear about the stories of other people. Of like hate, you know, their family rejected them, or you know, they were kicked out. You didn’t hear of much violence at that point, or I hadn’t heard of, you know, many violent interactions at that point where I was doing that level of research on the internet, but it was just really scary. What do I say? You know? I think that not having the words to be able to articulate, you know, how I felt, that felt scary. My mother being in the military—I used to call her a drill sergeant and I would often have to remind her “you know I didn’t sign up for the military, right?” Because my life shouldn’t feel like bootcamp. But, as the only girl and the oldest, it just felt like a sense of responsibility to show up a particular way, to represent the family a particular way, and I didn’t want to let anybody down. So that was really scary to know that like, I’m the only girl in the house but the kind of woman that you want me to be, that’s not in the cards for me, and if it is, then I’m not being true to myself. 23:53 8 �MO: Yes, no, that is very true, and how did it feel when you were just like realizing that this is not who your family wanted you to be? How did that make you feel and did that kind of slow down your process of coming out to your friends and family in some ways? 24:15 SR: I don’t know that it slowed it down but I think that it brought me a sense of comfort that I had something that I could call it. Like it had a name, it had a title. So, I think that that sort of calmed the anxiety around it a little bit. And then it was at least if I can tell myself this, hopefully at some point, I will be brave enough to say it to, you know, my family. But I felt comfortable for a while just being in the space where I was where I could just say it to myself. 25:08 MO: That’s true, and how did it make you feel when you were able to finally say it to yourself? 25:12 SR: It felt like a hug [laughter] or a warm Krispy Kreme doughnut. It was just that sense of comfort, right? Of just “okay, you’re owning something for yourself,” and that was something that was a little different. Again, growing up in my house everything was shared, because again being the oldest, there was a sense of responsibility for my younger siblings, and it was like I was the other parent in the house, so everything that was mine was a collective of everyone’s. But this was something that was mine and I didn’t have to share it. So, there was comfort in just owning that for myself. 26:00 MO: Yes, and that’s good to know and as you were finally able to come to terms, did that make you feel different while you were in this new environment? Cause I know you were now in graduate school and things were very different from undergrad—how did it feel now that you were finally coming to terms in this new environment? 26:16 SR: I would love to tell you that it was like the sky opened up and the sun and the birds were like welcoming me. But law school was a totally different animal. And I think it was like, yeah you recognize that, but now we gotta get back to work. So that became 100 percent my existence. So, it was like “nice, high-five, you got there,” but now law school is your journey. So, get lost in the books. 26:46 MO: Yeah, that makes sense, law school is very difficult. And at that time while you were in law school, did you wait to come out later? Like did you talk to anyone? ‘Cause I know you said you came out to yourself, but was there anybody else at this time that you talked to about it? 27:06 SR: No, so it was once I came home. Law school was an awesome experience, but I think that first of all nobody tells you that the cost is real. And you quickly run out of money. So, I think that my journey with law school was not to complete it. So, the lesson in it was not to complete it. But that first year I learned a lot about myself and it really created a path for me to explore 9 �myself in a more realistic way. So, the Shamaill that walked away after that first year was not the show pony that she was when she went to school because I felt that I had the weight of my entire family in this journey going into law school. And I was the one who was always the ‘good child.’ I just did what everybody told me to do. So it was the expectation ‘Shamaill is gonna go to school. Shamail is gonna do this,’ and I fell in line with that. And when that first year was over and I realized my resources were depleted, I wasn’t the show pony anymore. It was, okay, now real life is hitting you, what are you gonna do now? So, to come back home and to understand “Shamaill, this is who you are, realistically, and like what is the next stage of your life gonna look like?” The first thing I did was have a conversation with my best friend and his mom because they have always been a safe space for me. It was sorta like, you know, I think that I might be bisexual. And I giggle about that now because in meeting some other members of the community, they were just like “girl, that’s my story too! I came out as bi first.” And it’s like, why did we do that? And we did that because it seemed like the safe path. If I tell you I’m bi, there’s still hope that I might end up with a husband with 2.5 kids, dog, fenced house, all that good stuff. But very quickly in that conversation it was like “I know that I’m not bi.” So, it was like two weeks [later], I came back to them and I said “Yeah, hey, so, I’m a lesbian. Just letting you know I’d like to swim in the lady pool that’s all [laughter].” It was an interesting story there too because my best friend and I came out to each other that same day. 30:08 MO: Oh wow, how was that? 30:12 SR: It was interesting because we both told each other we were bisexual. And at that two week point later we both looked at each other like “I’m a lesbian,” and he was like “Yeah, I’m a gay man.” So that was an “a-ha” moment and for his mom, the one thing that she said was “I just worry that someone will hurt you all.” Especially for him being a gay man, at that time violence towards gay men was increasing. So, you had Matthew Shepard. We had the situation here in Roanoke at one of the clubs where a gentleman walked in—and it was a gay club here that is now closed—and the gentleman walked in and shot several people. So, you started to see violence towards the LGBT community start to increase. Not saying that it didn’t exist before, but now it was getting more television coverage and people were talking about it more. So, for his mom, her concern was “I don’t want anyone to hurt you all.” 31:28 MO: Yeah, and that’s very valid especially given the environment that you were in. How do you feel that those experiences and those situations affected you at that time? 31:41 SR: The one thing that our parents told us was like number one you already got a strike against you because you’re Black. Shamaill, you’ve got a strike against you because you’re a woman. And now you’re adding another thing for people to side eye you on. So, it was one of those things like when I am the only Black person in the room, I look and check out my safety. If I am the only woman in the room, I look to see where the exits are to make sure I’m safe. Now as a member of the LGBT community, I look for those same things. When I’m with my partner, I want to make sure that we’re good. Is anybody giving us too much attention? Is this a safe space 10 �for us to exist? I think it was something that I was already doing, but now it’s just like a heightened sense of awareness and something else that I have to be on the lookout for. 32:49 MO: Yes, that’s true. Do you feel that now you are a little bit less as protective as you were at that time or do you feel like you’re even more protective of yourself now and your environment compared to that time? 33:04 SR: I feel like I am even more protective of myself. Just because at that time I liked to call myself a “baby gay” at that time. I was just trying things out. I still had my feminine clothes that I would wear out because I didn’t want to make anybody else feel uncomfortable. So, it was harder for folks to assume that I was a member of the community. Because if you looked aesthetically at how I showed up, it was kinda just like “okay, she looks like a tomboy, but she’s wearing semi-girly clothes.” Whereas now I walk in my truth. There are people who don’t feel comfortable with that. So, whether it’s men who feel like “well, you just haven’t had the right man,” or like “I could show you a ‘good time’ and I can change you.” I think I am more aware now of my surroundings and my security. Even when my girlfriend and I are together, just making sure that we’re both okay. I made an agreement with her dad that I will make sure that we get home. And I will make sure that she’s safe. We gon’ always get home. Whatever that needs to look like to make sure that we do, we’re gonna get home. 34:37 MO: Yeah, I think that’s a good point and a good idea because at the end of the day, you do never know and the world is changing so much. So, it makes sense to feel like that. How does your girlfriend feel about this, is she also as open to walk in her truth as you are, or is it a different story? 34:59 SR: So, she is one hundred percent comfortable in who she is as a person and in her lesbianism. She is a strong personality and she doesn’t take much mess. That’s good. But I think, too, we just have two different lived experiences. So, whereas I think growing up as a Black female, you are taught to be on guard all the time. And then for her as a white female, she is a little more carefree than I am. So sometimes that sort of clashes. Sometimes it’s a bit of a pain point because she’s like “why are you so nervous and anxious and worried. We should just be free to exist,” and I’m just like “yeah, but…” You know we just grew up in two different worlds. She is learning to deal with my anxiety and awareness and I am trying to be a little more open and free to things. 36:20 MO: Yeah, I mean it makes sense, different lived experiences. Do you feel like after your coming out experience, do you feel like that’s shaped how you are today? Or do you feel like you’ve slowly developed into who you are because of your life experiences? 36:36 SR: I think it’s a combination of both. I lost my mom when she was 45 and I was 24. I think that there was a lot of growing up that happened in that space. With her passing and with being the 11 �matriarch of our little family now… I found that with her passing at 45 that life is short. Live your truth because you don’t know how many days you have. There were so many things that I would have loved for my mom to be able to see. Whether it was me having my own place, and being established, and being able to treat her out to a vacation, or dinners, or whatever. But we never got that opportunity. So, the one thing I told myself at the time that she passed, from the time she took her last breath to the time that I got across town to my house was that I was going to live my life. And for anybody who had a problem with it, that was their problem. It was one hundred percent me understanding that the pain of my mom’s passing was also a blessing for me because that’s where I found myself. I was able to grow me without being concerned about the judgement, whether it was the family or the world. ‘Cause at that point I didn’t care. 38:56 MO: Yes, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom’s passing. While she was still alive, did you ever get the chance to tell her? Were you able to come out to her? And how was that experience if you were able to do that? 39:08 SR:[laughter] Yes I did. So, I giggle because my coming out story is so so trash [laughter]. Because I was too old to be navigating the world the way that I did. So, I just happened to sneak a girlfriend of mine into my mom’s house, not that we did anything in particular. We just, you know, were spending time together, just watching TV and talking or whatever. But my mom had rules in her house. That you just didn’t have company over. We just didn’t do that if it wasn't family. My mom just happened to get up in the middle of the night and saw her car in the driveway. I was thinking that we had gotten away with it. My girlfriend at the time sorta scuttled out early in the morning and left. My mom’s getting up and ready for work, and I’m just bebopping getting ready for work. My mom calls me when I’m at work and she says “So Shamaill why was that little girl at my house?” And I’m like, “what are you talking about?” And I’m like, I am in my twenties, sneaking somebody in my momma’s house. This is stuff I shoulda been doing when I was like fifteen, sixteen. But now here I am in my twenties trying to figure out how to get away with this. So, my momma was like “yeah, you know we’re gonna have a conversation when you come home.” I was trying to find everything to do. Listen, if there would have been like a community service project that needed a week-long volunteer, I would have signed up [laughter], so I could have escaped that conversation because I knew that that was wrong, to have someone in my mom’s house without her knowledge. So, you know I finally got it together, and was like “you can’t ride around all day, you gotta go home.” So, I came into the house and my brother who is 18 months younger than I, he was in my mom’s room and I come in and my mom’s like “Is there something you want to tell me?” And I’m like “no, like what do you mean? I got nothing.” And she was like “Y’know, don’t play with me girl.” And I was like, “ah, no, what do you think I want to tell you?” And she was like, “Shamaill, like what is happening with you and that girl?” And I was like, “Ahhh, what do you think is happening?” And so, you know, I just sorta hemmed and hawed for a while and then she was like “I mean is that your girlfriend?” and I was like “well, if you think it is then okay we’ll go with that.” And she was like “I need you to say it.” And I’m like “well you said it so that’s enough.” You know, at some point I was like “okay, Shamaill, you need to be an adult,” and I was like, you know, “yes, that’s what it is.” And there was an interesting part there because I had had a prom date back when I was in high school, and somehow my mom thought that was a love connection for 12 �life. So she was like “you dated that boy!” And I was like “we went to prom, momma! What? That was like four years ago, why are we still talking about this?” And she was like, “you know well, I thought that was a thing and you weren’t being honest with me,” and I was like “I mean we went to prom, you know?” And at some point, we were going back and forth and my brother just sorta looked at my momma and said “Momma, Shamaill has always been Shamaill, and you know if you’re honest with yourself, you knew this whole time.” And he was like “This is my sister and I love her. And as long as she doesn’t try to steal any of my girlfriends, I’m cool with that.” And I was like “all your girlfriends are ugly.” And he [went] “What! Which one of my girlfriends? All of my girlfriends are like bomb!” And I was like “No they’re not!” And we’re going back and forth and my mom was like “this is not even what we’re talking about like where did this go off?” So, it was one of those things that I will always appreciate that space that my brother had for me in just saying, “That’s my sister and I love her and that’s not going to change who she is to me. She has always been an awesome person and that’s not going to change just because of who she loves.” 44:00 MO: Oh yes, that’s a beautiful story. Very funny. How do you feel like that support felt like at that time? Like how did it feel to finally be able to tell your family who you really were? 44:14 SR: I think it was really good because I think that all these years later, going back and looking at that scenario or the scenario of friends who I’ve talked to, is that we give a lot of credence to people who at the end of the day don’t care about us… and we don’t care about them that way, but we care about their opinions. Right? So, strangers, or even like family members. Like there are family members like “okay, family member, you have your opinion,” but like it doesn’t nourish me, it doesn’t matter to me. Right? So just being able to have that conversation with my immediate family. After they knew, I didn’t care who else knew. So, what everybody else thought after that, it did not matter. At all. So, I never have had that conversation with the rest of my family because, I think for me, in particular, it’s like if you invite people’s opinion in it, into your life, they will give it. But if you make it like “I don't care what your opinion is,” people are less likely to give it. Right? So there have been very few people, whether it’s in my family or a coworker that tell me what they think because I don’t give them the option of giving it to me because I don’t care. 45:36 MO: Yeah, and that’s true. It’s your truth and it’s up to you who you wanna tell it to. Do you feel like any family member that did find out, or any friend that did find out, after you came out do you feel your relationship changed with them or did it just stay the same? 45:49 SR: I think from the family perspective, my grandmother who was really deep in the church, I think she… well, I know she had some really strong feelings about what my end of days would look like, where my final destination would be. And she would share that with my mom, but she wouldn’t share it with me. So, my mom would be like, “oh your grandma’s over there crying.” And I’m like, “what is she crying about?” And she’s like, “well, you know, she thinks you’re going to hell.” And I’m like, “Oh, what did I do?” And she was like, “Really?” And I was like, 13 �“No, but what did I do?” And she was like, “Are you? Like, you know, you being a lesbian.” And I was like, “Oh, is she still on that? I’ll talk to grandma later.” And then when I would go have a conversation with her, and I’m like, “Well grandma, I don’t believe that for my life. And I think that there are other things in life that you should focus on. And if you want to pray for me, fantastic, but don’t let that be the thing that you pray to change because that’s not something I want to change about myself. So, our prayers will cancel each other out. You’re going to pray to change it, I’m going to pray that I fall deeper into who I am in that space. So it’s gonna end up being nothing. So if there’s something you want to pray for me on, find something else.” So I think that was the only family member that we had to have any additional conversations with was her. But then from the friend perspective or the coworker perspective, I think the one part that was a little interesting was people’s way of connecting with you. So, I have had some really uncomfortable situations with folks who are just like… it was weird, because I would have coworkers or friends that would come up to me and just be like, “Yeah so I had a dream that I was intimate with this woman.” And I’m like, “why are you sharing this with me? Why are you telling me this? I don’t care [laughter]” And like they would want to have this deep conversation and like, they’re not reading the room at all, because I’m like, “Do you see this look of terror on my face as you continue to talk? [laughter]” So those types of things were always interesting. And then for male friends, they look at you and want to have that “bro” moment with you like “oh is that your girlfriend? High-five bro!” Or like, “Oo you walked in with all the sexy ladies!” And I’m like “Okay, weird, but alright. Thanks, friend.” 48:29 MO: Yeah, and how did that make you feel, knowing that your friends were now viewing you differently than before? 48:36 SR: So, it’s different. You know, you have different pockets of friends. So the friends who I had grown up with and people who have known me were just like “Girl, duh.” And I was like, “Yeah, I just wanna tell you this!” And they were like “uh-huh, yeah, so what’s new? “Like [I] knew this, just waiting for you to get there.” But then for coworkers and those level of friends, I think it just had to settle down and just become the norm for them. Because I think that for some of those folks, what they needed to realize was that it was borderline sexual harassment for some of the activities that happened. So, like if a man was in the workplace and did some of those things to a woman, that would be HR worthy. But they felt like because they were sharing it with me as a woman that it was okay. And I’m like, “No, I’m uncomfortable.” You know? 49:40 MO: Yeah, that’s true. And how did you feel in the workplace after you came out, especially with your male workers treating you differently? Just overall in general, how did it feel working after you came out, especially in the Roanoke area? 49:51 SR: It was really good because All-State has a culture of inclusivity and we have employee resource groups who deal with, not deal with, but support the needs of different marginalized groups within the company. So, creating safe spaces there and having a zero-tolerance policy for any kind of activity that would discriminate against anyone because of—whether it’s their sexual 14 �orientation, or their race, or their religion, those types of things. Work was really cool. I have a really interesting story there. I was a trainer at one point and we had some folks come over from India who I was in the process of training so one of the practices that we had was that the leadership team, and the trainers, and the trainees would go out for like a big company dinner or whatever. And this was like my first time being invited to one, so I was super nervous because you know, there’s going to be senior leaders there and it’s not really many times where you got to sorta hob-nob with those folks, so you know I’m super nervous. And they’re just like, “Yeah bring a guest!” And I’m like “Okay.” So I was like, “Okay, we’re gonna rip the band-aid off this one.” So with my girlfriend at the time I was like, “Hey there’s this company dinner, I really would like to take you.” And she was like, “Are you ready for that, are you okay?” And I was like, “Yeah, let’s go.” You know… wide-eyed and like sweating, but let’s go [laughter]. 51:49 MO: Yes, and sorry what kind of work environment was this? You can just give general details as to what kind of work you were doing at the time. 51:56 SR: So it was just data processing. We were in the process of transitioning some work to India. So I was training those folks. They had come over for a period of time to sort of learn the functions and things like that. 52:12 MO: Okay, okay. So how was it when you guys were going to this work dinner party? 52:19 SR: So, we go there and we’re sitting around the table and I think it was like fifteen people or so just sitting there and we had went to Nawab downtown, an Indian restaurant downtown. And everybody was ordering their food and you know the awkward silence after everybody has ordered? Like “Okay, what are we gonna talk about?” So, I just happened to be sitting at the head of the table, so one of the managers just sorta looked at me and said, “So Shamaill, who’s your guest?” And I’m like, “Oh crap, this is how it starts. Like what do I say?” So, I looked at my girlfriend and she says, “These are your folks, so, whatever you wanna say.” So, I was like, “So umm….” And the manager was like, “Is this your sister?” Now, me and my girlfriend did not look anything alike. At all. So that was a thing, right? And I was like, “Well no, actually this is my girlfriend.” And I just waited for that pause, and I waited for everybody’s heads to blow off, and you know that never happened. And the manager just sorta looked, she took a sip of water, and she said, “So like how’d y’all meet?” And it was just like a regular conversation. And I was so tense and I was so worried and I looked around the table at everybody else and they were just engaged because they wanted to hear the story. It did not matter that this was my significant other and we just happened to be two women. 53:44 MO: Yeah, that’s really amazing. Was this kind of like your first time like presenting your girlfriend in public? Or had you done this before? 53:57 15 �SR: Like at work, yes this was. Like in the club scene, so the club scene being The Park, right? In my personal life, it wasn’t a big thing, but in a work function, a work capacity, this was the first time bringing someone to an event. It was kind of a big deal. After that, I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m ready, bring on the next one. We’re gonna do this.” 54:27 MO: Yes, ‘cause it kinda just gives you that confidence boost like, “Okay I got through this, I can get through something else.” That’s really interesting. I guess kind of going back, when was the first time you actually presented your girlfriend to someone or your family or people? 54:41 SR: So, my first girlfriend she came around the family and stuff like that, but you know, people will say that they know, and, in a polite way people will just say “oh your friend, your friend.” I’m like “okay, I have lots of friends, but this is a different friend.” So my very first girlfriend, she would come to different family things and stuff. But people were just like “oh, that’s just Shamaill’s friend.” And that was before I came out. 55:16 MO: Yeah, that’s interesting. And, also going back a little bit, how was your first queer sexual experience while you were figuring everything out? 55:30 SR: Awkward. Because I think it was like awkward. Number one, because I feel like I’m 16 again. This feels like I don’t know what to do. I have no idea what I’m doing here. So, I’m just gonna fumble my way through this. It felt very awkward. It felt like losing your virginity all over again in your twenties... It felt weird. But I think that once I had my second girlfriend, it was weird as well because she was… I’m trying to find the right words. She was like the epitome of like a goddess to me, you know, at that time. I was like “oh my god, I don’t know what she sees in me, why is she talking to me.” Right? You know when she was interested in me back, and we got to the space we were going to be intimate, I was like, “uhhhh…” I’m nervous. And I remember her saying to me, “what would you do if I, you know, like, took all my clothes off and was ready?” And I would just… you know, I answered like a dude and was like “yeah I’ll handle my business.” What did I mean? I don’t know [laughter]. I was just talking, and I wanted to sound cool. So, we jumped up and she, you know, was like alright. And you know, went and took a shower and everything, and I was like having this holy crap moment. What did I just agree to? I don’t know what I just said. I don’t know what any of it means, that I just told her! Like, I am setting this expectation and could possibly fail. And, I was so embarrassed, you know. I’m embarrassed now to be like “why did you say that? You were such a doofus.” 58:20 MO: Yeah, but I mean, you were younger, and also again, you were still trying to figure everything out. So, it makes sense, and I’m sure by now… I guess, now do you feel more comfortable as you’ve grown and developed? 58:38 16 �SR: I would love to tell you yes, Michelle, because I’m 40, and I would love to say that you know, I’ve gotten it a little bit together. I definitely am way more comfortable in myself now. I don’t know that in my lifetime I will ever lose the awkward little me that still exists within this body. I am sure that I will say another awkward thing, and do another weird thing that will have my girlfriend looking at me and saying “are you a 14 year old little prepubescent boy, like what are you doing?” So, yeah. 59:27 MO: I’m sure obviously with time and stuff, you know, things will change. But that is interesting and how did you meet your current partner that you’re with today? 59:38 SR: So, I hope we have time for this because this is a pretty long story. I’ll try to keep it as short as possible. I am very active in our LGBT employee resource group at Allstate. Currently, I’m the president of our national board. But I am also a field leader here in the Roanoke area. So, we have about 22 active chapters, and we have over 2,000 members throughout the company and that’s ever growing, but we create safe spaces for employees, we have honest and real conversations about these lived experiences of the LGBT community within the walls of the company, as well as outside and in our communities. So, with that we had an opportunity to speak at a national conference, it’s called Out and Equal. We presented a couple topics over the last couple years. But my current girlfriend was there and was able to hear me present at one of the conferences, and we were friends. Just because I always shout out Virginia wherever I go. The conference was in Seattle. I represent for Roanoke, Virginia wherever I am. It was funny because afterwards she walked up to me and said “oh my God, I’m from Virginia too.” Who would have ever thought that two Virginia girls would have met in Seattle? We just remained friends for an extended period of time, then our paths crossed again a little later on in life, and here we are today. 1:01:34 MO: Aww, that’s beautiful. I know that we talked about this earlier, but how do you feel now that your relationship is currently compared to your previous relationships that you’ve had before? 1:01:51 SR: I think that the big thing is, I took a really long time building my confidence. I thought that the years of wanting to fit into the mold that my family had for me was a heavy burden in that I was very apprehensive in going down the path that I wanted to, or you know, being the Shamaill that I could see for myself, but being nervous that it would upset, you know, our family dynamic. So, I think that now I am 100% confident in me, which reflects in my relationships better, so I think that every relationship that I’ve ever had has been a really awesome lesson that has challenged my way of thinking. There was a lot of work that I needed to do and a lot of baggage that I carried, you know so therapy has 100% been an important additive in my life. It’s helped me sort of process some of those things. So, I think I am the healthiest I have ever been, because I am real with myself on like who I am and how I show up in the world. I think that for my past relationships, a lot of those young ladies did not get the benefit of having me not be as fleshed out as I am now. 17 �1:03:40 MO: Yeah, that’s good to hear. Growth and self-development is always something that we are striving to achieve. And besides therapy were there other support services that you used in order to get to where you are today? 1:03:53 SR: Yeah, I think conversation is always a big one for me, like hearing other peoples lived experiences and talking to people matters. I was very bullheaded when I was younger—like, this is the way it is, period. Because I said so, right? I think that being able to hear other people’s lived experiences and understanding where my biases are. I think that a lot of times people feel like because you are a member of a marginalized community that you can’t have biases and that’s not true. So it was like, I had a lot that I had to come to terms with, come to grips with, and it definitely cleared up my vision on how I see the world now. I have to hold myself accountable, and having friends around me to hold me accountable as well, and not telling me that everything I do is fantastic and wonderful, but really calling me when I step outside the lane, or you know If I say something that is ignorant. It is important to have people around you to hold you accountable for that. 1:05:02 MO: Do you feel like the support of therapy, as well as your friends, has shaped how you view yourself as a lesbian here in the Roanoke Valley? 1:05:12 SR: I definitely think 100%. I definitely think so. It is beautiful just to see how the Roanoke area has grown and become a bit of a safe haven. Are we 100% there? Absolutely not. But to see where the Pride parades here have grown. To hear more people speaking up, walking in their truth. That was definitely a lot different, you know, in times past. But just to be able to see that continuously growing, that matters. Joe Cobb, the fact that our vice mayor is an openly gay man, and speaks his truth, and knowing Joe for years. I used to be a member of MCC when he was pastor there, and just to see how his journey has been is amazing. Again, it’s not saying we get it right 100% of the time, but also patting ourselves on the back for the fact that we definitely are not where we used to be. 1:06:28 MO: That's very true. And now there’s various organizations, and support systems, here as well. A lot of strides are being made to be more of a inclusive city. Have you ever used one of the support systems that are present here? Like, the Drop-in Center? The House of Expression? 1:06:48 SR: Yes. I am a member of the House of Expression. When the Drop-in Center was created, I was a volunteer, so I would go to the clubs and give out condom packs. The Drop-in Center used to have a support group for gay men, [but] there was no support group for lesbians. So I would just go to those meetings because I said “there’s no meeting for me, but I need to be able to talk to, you know, other folks too who are in the community.” So I was the one lesbian that showed 18 �up to the gay men’s events. I said “well, until there’s a lesbian space, you know, I’m here with y’all! Hey!” [laughter] So yeah, definitely have used the Drop-in Center—and they do, and have done fantastic work for years. I think being able to go to clubs and give out condom packs and do education was really eye-opening, and I think for that little introvert that was me in the past, it kinda opened me up to connecting with the community in a real way. 1:08:06 MO: Yeah, that is true. What role has the House of Expression played in your adult life? I’m currently working with them a little bit. How have you felt being part of that organization? 1:08:16 SR: So, for any house culture it’s that sense of family and community. I’m newer to the house so a lot of the heavy lifting and a lot of the work that was done was prior to my involvement with it. It is awesome to be a member who is learning from the experiences of those who created the house. Being an active part of the direction the house will go in the future. So, I know there’s some amazing work that the mother and father of the house are doing with the Roanoke City Police Department to help with some education and training for new cadets. We have some input in giving some education on how they interact with our community when they are out on call. And being a safe space for them to be able to ask questions, because that’s a big thing, right? A lot of time, people have these preconceived notions because they’ve never been able to be in a space where they can ask questions and not feel judged or feel like “hey, that was a dumb question.” So, we have offered ourselves that way. Also, there is a connection to the LGBT organizations within the school systems, for the high schools, to be able to be mentors for those folks and ask questions, and see where there’s opportunities for partnership with us. And just with the History Project, that was a big one, that we wanted to make sure that voices of color were represented within the History Project. 1:10:07 MO: Yeah, that’s amazing. How have you felt as a woman of color in these spaces that you are in currently? 1:10:16 SR: So which spaces in particular? 1:10:18 MO: Spaces like the House of Expression. At work… you said you also do a lot of work as well with community involvement, with the LGBTQ+ community. The Drop-in Center. How have you felt as a woman of color? Were you ever tokenized in some way? Have you felt unsafe in these spaces? 1:10:41 SR: So, tokenizing is 100% a thing. But I think the one thing that I have come to terms with is that you can use it as a way to get other people into a space that they otherwise did not know existed. Or that they wouldn’t have been invited to. Right? So, if you need me to be your token, “oh, Shamaill’s one of those good folks.” Okay great, that’s great that you think that, and I’m not saying that I’m not, but let me bring some other folks. I’m holding the door open, let’s get as 19 �many folks as possible into this space so that if I have to be the comfort level for the non-POC [people of color] in the room, for them to be okay with other people having space there, then use me as your token. If you look at me as the good POC, or you know, the amicable one, fine. But we’re gonna create spaces for more of us to exist. In spaces that are beneficial to others, it will become beneficial to us as well. 1:12:06 MO: Yes, that is very true. While you have been in these spaces for a while, do you feel that now more people of color are more comfortable to be in these spaces? Or do you feel like more work really needs to be done to include more people of color in these spaces for LGBTQ+ people. 1:12:24 SR: I think it’s combination of both, because sometimes for us as POC, when we get into those spaces, it feels phony. It feels fake. So it’s just like, I worked this hard to get right here, and this is just a bunch of… tomfoolery, is what it is. So, you find folks that are like “I don’t really want to put on a show, I don’t really want to be fake in this space,” but I think something we need to realize is everybody else in this space is being fake. They’re being fake to each other, so it’s not just fake because you’re here, it’s fake period [laughter]. Play the game to get the benefit from it. For instance, whether it’s resources that wouldn’t be available to our communities, it’s like if I need to play the game to get resources for our community, I’ll do that. Again, these people aren’t being fake just for me, they’re fake period. Whatever I need to do to make sure that resources are spread out amongst the community then I’ll do that for the benefit of the greater good. If that makes sense. 1:13:43 MO: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you feel like maybe there’s also a difference in age? Do you feel like the older gays vs. the newer gays view these safe spaces differently? 1:13:56 SR: That I don’t know. The one thing that I love about the younger generation of folks, is that they do not play games when it comes to their time and their commitment to things. So, if it don’t look right, if it don’t feel right, I’m not staying here. I’m not going to waste my time in this space. Either I will create a space that makes sense, or I’ll just find something that feels a little bit more like what I’m looking for. Whereas, for me, I have found in situations I might invest a little too long or stay in a place a little too long, hoping that I can bring about some change and change an established culture. And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. You definitely wear the scars of that. Whereas the younger generation is just like “absolutely not, no.” And they peace out in a heartbeat. 1:15:03 MO: Yes, that’s true, and especially now with the younger generation, they’re very active in the community and they’ve caused a lot of change to happen, a lot of good change to happen. Do you feel that more change is going to occur in the LGBTQ+ community as we continue on with our lives? Has it been more drastic now or less compared to when you were growing up in the community? 20 �1:15:32 SR: Well, I think that there was a large focus at one point on marriage equality, and I think that for some folks, once marriage equality passed, it was just kinda like “yep, the needs of the LGBT community, we did it.” Check, mark, done. But I think that with the creation of the additional letters in our community and the additional family members that we have there, it is going to be an ever-growing situation. We’re gonna forever have to be allies to each other and create spaces for the change and for the evolution of what the communities’ needs are. I love the fact that there is a lot of attention on the trans community right now, because it is long overdue. The violence against the trans community, while we do see an increase in the murder rate, we have to ask ourselves why that’s a thing. Because it’s not just happening, it just wasn’t reported previously. It’s been a problem for a while and people should not lose their lives for being who they are. Why is that a thing? I just think the younger generation are folks who are 100% vocal and like out in the streets, ready to make some change happen. I’m just excited because it’s definitely a journey, and it’s not one and done. I love the fact that for those of us who are a little older, and our knees don’t work as good as they used to, to be able to pass the baton off to the next generation to run it forward, to then pass it off again. I think that is fantastic. 1:17:37 MO: Yes, that is very true, and specifically to you, what changes would you like to see in the future, either here in Roanoke, or just in the U.S, or the world? It’s really up to you. 1:17:50 SR: I think that for Roanoke in particular, we are a bit of a sleepy town. Things tend to get to us a little later than they do other communities. I think the one thing that would be really important for Roanoke, even for me, is just being educated and updated on what’s happening in other parts of the U.S and what’s happening in other parts of the world, because eventually it’s gonna come this way. Right? What can we do to be prepared? What can we do to be an active part of making the change happen, so that when it does hit Roanoke, we don’t feel blindsided. It makes it seem like we don’t care until it hits our community, when we are a very caring community of people who are willing to fight for what we want, but we’re just slow to get there sometimes. 1:18:55 MO: Yes, yes, that is true. I also hope too that change comes here in the Roanoke Valley, but also as well as everywhere else in the world. I just want to say thank you so much for this. I have learned a lot about you. You’ve provided a lot of insight for this project and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. 1:19:17 SR: No problem, and thank you all so much for providing this opportunity and just for anyone who listens after this, your voice matters. Anytime you have an opportunity to share your story, that is the most valuable thing that you can ever give anyone, is your perspective and your lived experience. 1:19:36 MO: Yes, that is true. Thank you. 21 �[END] 22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Shamaill Ross Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Shamaill Ross Interviewer: Michelle Ogutu Interviewee: Shamaill Ross Date: 23 March 2021 Location: Online via Zencastr Duration: 1:19:43 Transcription prepared by: Liz Ragsdale, Avery Monahan, and Alejandra Carino Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 March 2021 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shamaill Ross, Michelle Ogutu, Liz Ragsdale, Avery Monahan, and Alejandra Carino Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RossShamaill https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5827/Rosenthal.1.mp3 000025dcb7601b3752a4626832e67e84 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5827/Rosenthal.pdf caed1284715504776528b1a9eb55732c PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Interview with Gregory Samantha Rosenthal April 6, 2021 Interviewer: Catherine Jessee Length: 1:29:36 Interviewee: Dr. Gregory Samantha Rosenthal Interviewer: Catherine Jessee Date of interview: 2021-04-06 Location of interview: Roanoke, Virginia & Oxford, Mississippi Recording software: Zencastr Summary: In this interview, Samantha Rosenthal discusses her life and work as a community member and organizer in Roanoke, Virginia. She begins by detailing her life and education training in California, New York, and Maine, before moving to Southwest Virginia in 2015. She reflects on early experiences with activism and organizing, as well as coming out. Samantha discusses her experiences and differences between queer communities in metropolitan New York City and the city of Roanoke, Virginia. She reflects on unique cross-generational challenges the queer community faces, as well as how she merges public humanities with queer history and its legacy in Virginia. 0:00 Recording identification Samantha Rosenthal, born January 24, 1983, Schenectady, NY. Father: professor at Union College in Schenectady. Discusses primary and secondary schooling tied to liberal arts college world, white suburban public schools. 2:08 Describes music as creative outlet: French horn, band, orchestra, piano, singing. Discusses going to college for music at CalArts, Southern California, art school, pressures there. 6:58 Describes New England culture. Transfers to Bates College, Maine. Describes leftist and anarchist student groups and involvement in political activism post-9/11, early 2000s, Bush Administration, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Discusses getting arrested on night of Iraq invasion. 10:33 Describes parents’ reaction to 9/11, Bates College’s reaction to students getting arrested. Girlfriend came to visit on night they were arrested. 14:35 Discusses demographics of student group organizing at Bates College and early years of activism. Early queer friendships. 19:51 Discusses past experiences often tied to coming out as trans, describes wearing mother’s clothes. �2 24:53 Discusses dating in high school, early romantic relationships, heterosexuality and performance 27:45 Discusses being married, living in New York City, Hawaiʻi, getting divorced, coming out 37:22 Discussed leaving New York City, living in Honolulu, Hawaiʻi, moving to Virginia, and dating a man for the first time 40:34 Moved to Roanoke, Virginia August 2015. Describes merging history work with LGBTQ organizations; describes a “second coming out” 45:16 Origins of Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project at the Roanoke Diversity Center (led by Frank House); describes first History Project meeting in detail; discusses inspiration and intersection with The History Project (Boston-based LGBTQ project) 49:25 Describes discussions around power and representation in the Roanoke project, how the project has changed and evolved; project leadership and demographics changing over time: young, mostly white queer women in their 20s got involved in 2016; won grant to train and support young Black queer women to do QTPOC work in 2017–2018 57:09 Discusses race and gender among LGBTQ relations in Roanoke, Virginia, historical marginalization of Black LGBTQ community, and current organizational relations between members of new Black LGBTQ group and old standing white members of the History Project; describes change in relationships with white cis gay male community and increased organizing with trans and lesbian communities 1:01:18 Describes generational differences among the LGBTQ community and spaces that it has offered over time; History Project as politicized and radical around contemporary issues. 1:04:42 Friendship with Ollie, a trans man, and their experience together at a History Project meeting using the term “queer” where two older trans women identified it as a slur; Ollie was vocal that he identified with “queer” 1:07:46 Development of “Living Trans History,” an interactive theater program with youth (premiered 2017) based on oral histories collected by the project; discusses summer camp for LGBTQ youth in the area; describes event connecting lesbian organizers in the 1980s with younger queer women across generations 1:09:53 Describes variety of networking events, bar crawls, walking tours, social media, and “archive collection events” at various locations across town (churches, Diversity Center, CoLab, Roanoke Public Libraries) 1:15:27 Describes Roanoke queer bar crawl event in detail (first crawl in 2016) and most recently (temporally) 2019. Discusses how bars are chosen (some bars are “straight” but at some point were “queer”; some spaces are no longer bars at all). They include: City Market Building, Billy’s, Lucky, Murphy’s, Martin’s, Back Street, Corned Beef (no longer on the tour after they ejected trans women of color), Nite & Day, The Park; route is always changing and shifting depending on where to spend money, the value of “queering” the space, and shifting numbers of people (25 people at its height) 1:23:00 Describes value of social media, funding through Roanoke College to hire research assistant for the project �3 1:24:49 Discusses value and pride in the community that has developed, value of social spaces and increased LGBTQ spaces in Roanoke, Virginia; discusses “pride” versus “pride of place” and history as a tool for empowerment 1:29:25 Conclusion START OF RECORDING [00:00] Catherine Jessee: Okay, my name is Catherine Jessee. Today is April 6, 2021. I'm interviewing Samantha Rosenthal, who is in Roanoke, Virginia, and I'm in Oxford, Mississippi. Samantha for the record, will you share your date of birth? Before we get started? Samantha Rosenthal: It's January 24, 1983. Catherine Jessee: Thank you. So to start off, tell me about where you grew up. Samantha Rosenthal: I grew up in upstate New York. I grew up in a suburb of Schenectady, New York, which is also a suburb of Albany, New York; that area blends together. The Capital Region is what it's known as. My father was a professor at Union College in Schenectady, New York teaching math, which is how we ended up there as a family. I attended public schools my whole childhood, but they were very well funded, affluent, overwhelmingly white, suburban kind of public schools, like highly ranked public schools that colleges were recruiting from and so on. So it was very privileged, and definitely had the benefits of my father's role at the �4 university as well, because they paid. The University paid for— well, that's later for college—they paid for part of our tuition for college. But I did daycare at the college my dad worked at. So even from a very, very young age, I was in the liberal arts college world, which is where I'm still teaching today. So I've spent my whole life on campuses of small liberal arts colleges. Catherine Jessee: What do you remember spending your time doing? Samantha Rosenthal: By age seven or eight, I really got into music. Music became my — what I excelled at, and also how I made friends, and also my creative outlet as a person. I started playing piano at age seven or eight. By middle school, I was a prodigy of sorts. I never did classical lessons. I did Suzuki first, and then I started taking private jazz piano lessons in middle school with a well-known jazz pianist in Albany. And then through high school, I did vocals, piano. I played French horn in band and orchestra, and I sang in several choirs, and I won a lot of like music awards, and participated in statewide music things, wrote and then released some of my own music, and I ended up going off to college for music, which we can talk about in a bit. That was the most important thing to me growing up for sure, and it was a big part of my identity. Catherine Jessee: Tell me about playing music in college and what changed about that experience? �5 Samantha Rosenthal: When I was 18, I left home for college, and I went out to CalArts [the California Institute for the Arts] in Southern California. I basically went to the other side of the country. I really wanted to get far away, but also I had applied to maybe seven or eight schools, and I was only accepted into CalArts. So it was like, go there or not go to college. My parents really pushed me to go. So I went out to Southern California when I was 18, and CalArts is an art school, so they have like six different schools, like visual arts and dance and theater and music and that kind of thing, and I was in the music school. I was accepted into the composition program, and within the first few months, I realized that it was wrong, that I had taken the wrong step. [04:41] I didn't feel at home there in Southern California, both in terms of the natural world was foreign to me having grown up in the cold seasons of upstate New York, and that affected my mood a lot actually, and just the setting of the art school felt very competitive. I always felt the pressure to have to make really great work. That was what was hanging in the balance, was how innovative I am and how original the work I make is. Within a few months of getting out there, I started applying to other schools to transfer and I wanted to move back to the east coast. Also, I was dating a woman at that time, and I was a man at that time, and it was my �6 first long term relationship, and she was in Boston at college. That wasn't working to be on opposite sides of the country when you're 18 and trying to do a long distance, monogamous relationship. I ended up transferring to Bates College in Maine, which was a three-hour drive from her school, and I finished my last three years of college there, but I majored in music. I tried to get away from it. I declared other majors, tried to do other things, but by the time I was a senior, I didn't have enough credits in any fields to graduate, and music was the one I had the most in, so I ended up back in music at the end. Catherine Jessee: What do you remember feeling about being back on the East Coast or being at Bates? Samantha Rosenthal: Well, I love Maine. I love the snow. I loved the winter. Winter has always been my favorite season. I often say it's because I'm an Aquarius. I was born in January. I was born in an ice storm. My parents have told that story many times. Catherine Jessee: That was the 90s—no, ‘83? When… Samantha Rosenthal: Yep, ‘83. My parents were sliding around on the road when they drove to the hospital for me to be born. And so I think about how I came out into a world that was extremely cold and icy and snowy, and that's my first sense of life. And then the warmth of my parents. I left the warmth of the womb, which probably sucked. I loved upstate New York for that reason and loved Maine, that I �7 really connected with winter in terms of mood and emotion. I like the hibernation feel of it. I like the introspection, the darkness. I like playing in the snow. So, I loved that. In terms of New England culturally, I don't know. Right after I graduated, I left and moved back to — I did a couple things — but I basically moved back to upstate New York. New England, it can be a little snotty sometimes, or snooty, elitist in some places. Certainly Bates was. It was a lot of private school kids that I wasn't used to being around, but I found my people there. I fell in with a group of leftist students. I joined this anarchist group there, and got really involved in political activism in college, which, besides music, was probably the other number one thing I was doing with that time in my life, was protesting. I was arrested at a protest. This was the early 2000s, so this was the Bush administration and post-9/11 and the war in Afghanistan. Catherine Jessee: [inaudible] Samantha Rosenthal: Mm-hmm, the war in Iraq. And I was arrested on the night, the very first night that we were in Iraq. The “shock and awe” that Bush was ordering, missiles being rained down there. We went out to protest that very night, and that's when I was arrested. Getting arrested really radicalized me — the people in my life were not happy about that: my girlfriend, my parents, they were all very critical. But for me, it galvanized me to keep �8 organizing and I learned a lot about organizing from my peers who were able to bring out a lot of people into the streets and then bail us out, just very organized movement work. That was a huge part of my college experience too, because when I graduated, I thought, well what the heck am I going to do with music, and instead I thought, I want to dedicate my life to activism, now how can I do that after I graduate? And that was the big question in my mind in 2005, when I graduated. [10:16] Catherine Jessee: You mentioned that your parents and your girlfriend at the time were very critical of that experience—can you tell me a little bit more about that? Samantha Rosenthal: Yeah, my parents were teenagers in the late ‘60s, and had gone to college. Yeah, late ‘60s, early ‘70s. They met in the ‘70s. They've always said they were not involved in any of this stuff that went on at that time. They weren't hippies, they weren't arrested at protests. That wasn't part of their experience. I'm sure—we've never talked about this—but I'm sure that having come of age at that time, that they knew very well of people who were being sent off to Vietnam or people who were engaging in protests, and — people whose lives were altered in manifold ways by the social movements going on at that time. I think that after 9/11, like any parents, their concern was always that we're safe. And the Bush �9 administration imposed all of these new tools of surveillance, of federal surveillance, and policing stuff that was going on at that time. I mean, so many of my friends in college were arrested — whether it was at that event or at other things. It felt like a time when left wing dissent was being surveilled and criminalized not in new ways, like from a historian’s viewpoint, but in new ways for me as a young person in the world who's like, Wow, the government has these views. And so, like, being an antigovernment activist at that time, I think, occasioned my parents to be quite concerned. And getting arrested, it’s like, is the college going to respond to that and penalize us? I think they actually put out some kind of response, because there was a huge number of us who were arrested that night. I think the college put out some kind of supportive statement actually about, you know, students have the right to protest and do whatever they want. So, there were no repercussions for me, professionally. But that's what they worried about. And my girlfriend — well, I think if I'm remembering correctly, she had come up from Boston that day, and was waiting for me in my dorm room when I was in jail. I think that that's what happened. There was definitely some — if it wasn't, then it was another time when I was out at something — some kind of activist �10 thing. She was waiting for me and I stood her up. So it was bad relationship behavior on my part, but I remember coming back from jail, and she was very critical of behaviors I was engaging in. But we have to put that in the context also of the failed heterosexuality of the whole thing, as it was. And this was near the end of our three year long—from high school sweetheart to long distance college—thing that went on for much too long. [14:15] Catherine Jessee: Tell me about — you mentioned your peers or some of the relationships you had in organizing in college. Can you tell me what sorts of relationships you had within those moments? Samantha Rosenthal: These young people were from all different walks of life. Some of them were like me from white well-to-do backgrounds, some even more, some of them even more affluent and well-connected in their family backgrounds than I was. And I think that that's common that young, white affluent people go off to college and get radicalized. And I think about how much of that is rooted in guilt around like our upbringing and whatever. And whether white guilt is productive and whatever. But that's more of a different conversation. But even though Bates was very, very white and Maine was very, very white, there were activists in that group that were not white, �11 who I was friends with and had different views on some of these issues. I had friends who had spent time being homeless different times growing up. I had many friends who were queer. Many of the people involved in the leftist anarchist organizing stuff in college were queer, and that was new for me to be around queer people. I think in high school, I was aware of the very few out queer people around me, but I didn't have any friends who were out queer people, so it wasn't really on my radar screen. But in college, definitely, I had great friends who were gay or lesbian. I had one friend who was trans, who was the first trans person that I really ever met, a transmasc [transmasculine] person in college. So, it was a good group of people, yeah. I am certain that there were ways that we were just like, being college students, and some of the campaigns and some of the tactics were naive, and college-y, and I have a different perspective now as a professor who sees students organize now. I'm like, maybe this isn't actually like an effective thing you're doing. But it was like a training ground for me to play out different approaches to making change, and to adopt different ideologies. Like for example, I was a big animal rights activist in college. And hardcore vegan, like the kind that's like really annoying, and there were some views and tactics of the like animal rights people at my �12 college, including myself, that I find really abhorrent today. Like we read and passed around this book that analogized between human slavery and “animal slavery,” quote-unquote, which in retrospect is clearly racist and problematic and wrong. That kind of analogy doesn't hold up. But I think at 21 years old, there was a lot of fierceness without deep thinking behind it sometimes. And yeah, some of the stuff in college, looking back, it's cringy. I think that's part of the privilege of being a young white man as well, is the ability to engage in these kinds of discourses and practices without fearing the harm, the potential harm, that comes from them. The harm of some of these radical discourses is often felt by marginalized peoples and communities that at the time, I was just like, horribly naive of. So, I would say I was a white leftist. Yeah. [laughter] Catherine Jessee: When did you graduate from college? Samantha Rosenthal: 2005. 2005. [19:15] Catherine Jessee: 2005. I want to pause here and, and ask a bit about your experience as an LGBTQ-plus person — and what some of your first experiences were like. You mentioned, having friends who were queer and being in those spaces, but yeah, what were some of your first experiences like? Samantha Rosenthal: So this is always hard because there's something that I've �13 experienced, and I've seen this with other trans people. When you come out as trans, then you start to look back at childhood or other times, and you start to see things that you never realized before. And I wonder about how much those are real versus… not implanted memories, but that there's a process of creating a narrative of how to explain why I'm trans or why I'm queer. And so I'll share the stories with you, and I share them in my book that's coming out soon. But I think it's worth questioning how do these memories get curated into a narrative that quote-unquote explains how I became who I am. And I think a lot of that's constructed after the fact. But when I was in middle school — I tried to really think about when this was by pinpointing different memories together, and I think it was like seventh grade to ninth grade. So early, tween years, probably right when I was going through puberty, that I wore my mother's clothes, like a lot. I mean, it went on from seventh grade to ninth grade. It was always in secret. It was always, I came home from school off the bus before my parents were home from work, that I went into my mom's wardrobe and closets and stuff. I mean, underwear and dresses and bras and everything and I would put those on and look at myself in the mirror and liked it. And then I would put everything away and �14 there was intense shame around it. Like I’m pretty sure I often told myself, that better be the last time I do that, this is wrong, what's wrong with me? I'm not going to ever do that again. And then of course, I would do it again and again and again. I don't know why I stopped eventually, probably something with the hormones of puberty that had kicked in and then leveled out or something, all that testosterone pumping through me when I was 12, 13, 14 years old. So, I did that a lot. I have no recollection of thinking at the time that I wanted to live as a girl, be a girl. I wanted to wear those things. It was erotic to wear them. And in trans studies and discourses, there's this whole debate about like, are you really trans or do you just have a fetishistic relationship with like, clothing? There is something in the DSM [Diagnostic Statistical Manual] like a mental illness diagnosis that's about transvestic fetishism which delineates people who wear women's clothes just to get off versus like someone who actually has dysphoria and is actually trans—which is all bullshit, and I wasn't thinking about that at age 12. But thinking about it now it's like — my recollection of that time was that it was it was very much an erotic experience putting on the clothes, it was less about a kind of gendered embodiment that I hoped I could carry into other spaces. �15 However, I will say, then as I moved into high school, there were times — in middle school, there were several times that I had homosexual inclinations but not experiences—with sleepovers with boys, male friends and stuff like that, where I craved touch with them and stuff in ways that I never consummated but felt that yearning and I didn't know what to make of that either. But then by high school, my sexuality had gotten to a point that was more clearly about being attracted to women, but I did increasingly desire the embodiment of being a girl with a girl. And so, I remember there was a girl in my high school who I did end up having a couple-week long thing with at one point of just making out and maybe dating, whatever it was. She also dated women, and I remember seeing her with another girl on campus one time and feeling extremely jealous in a way that I was putting myself into the body of the other girl and wanting to be in that embodiment of the lesbian encounter. I was in high school—and I wrote about this a bit in my book, too—but I was discovering porn online. This would have been like the late ‘90s. My parents had— yeah, late ‘90s was high school—my parents had a personal computer, and we were very early to get internet because we dialed in through Union College, through my dad's employer. So, we had the World Wide Web access in the mid-90s, like maybe even �16 before a lot of homes did. And I discovered porn—there’s always been porn as long as there's been [the] internet. And I was attracted to lesbian porn. And again, it was the eroticism of imagining myself in the embodiment. It wasn't just the gaze. I mean, it's certainly true that there are straight men who watch lesbian porn and it's through a male gaze. But for me, it's always about imagining myself as one of the women. So, a lot of that was— it's clear to me now, I'm not sure how clear it was to me then—but a lot of that was going on in high school. And I did date girls; my first girlfriend was freshman year. And so, I had girlfriends. I think once I was actually—just to close up this topic—once I was actually into relationships with girls, then it felt like, Oh my god, I need to perform heterosexuality for them. This is what we've agreed to, this is what this is, is about me being the man and trying to get them to like me as their boyfriend and perform that role. The goal of performing that role successfully became all-consuming from age 14 to 31 when I came out. [27:41] Catherine Jessee: Tell me about life after you came out. Samantha Rosenthal: Well, that's jumping ahead, but yeah. So, three years after college, I met someone who became my wife. I was married. That all happened in my twenties, before I came out. I was 25 when I met �17 her. We were together for five and a half years, and I moved to New York City with her where I ended up spending five, six years of my life in New York City. We got engaged and we got married, and we lived together, and it was the culmination of that heterosexual goal of mine, of my life. Like, Look, I did it, I got married, like, I'm a successful straight man. I got this to work, despite the fact and I'm so feminine, and despite the fact that I hate straight sex, and despite the fact that my wife often joked around and called me a lesbian, which didn't make sense to me, but I'm sure deep down it did, and now it does [laughter]. But she could see that I approached her through a kind of embodiment that was not ‘straight man.’ And yet, despite that, despite—I think she clearly saw that—despite that, we really tried to make it work. And once we got married is when things started to deteriorate. It was like reaching that culmination, and then immediately realizing you're looking down the other side of the hill, and realizing, what have we done? And so, we were only together married for about a year. That was like the end of our relationship, where it just devolved. She, to her credit, she did a lot of the realizing of like, what have we done, this was a mistake. How do we get out of this? [That] kind of thing. Whereas I was grasping at it for dear life because heterosexuality was the armor that I'd been wearing for so long to try to actually be successful in the world. I mean, on top of �18 being a white man, straightness was also something I really wanted. Because, I mean, who wants to be—who wants to face sexism and oppression and homophobia and stuff? And I had faced homophobia growing up because I was always read as a gay man and bullied and all kinds of horrible stuff. I was really, really grasping at straightness. And she had to take the real bold steps to kind of end the marriage. But anyway, I was like, We need to go to couples counseling. I want to save this marriage. And she wouldn't agree to [it], which I think in retrospect was very smart. So, I went to therapy on my own, and it was in therapy very quickly with my therapist that I realized that maybe I'm not straight. I had moved out by that point of our place. I lived at the YMCA for a few months, and then finally found an apartment in Brooklyn. And I came out as queer in early 2014. I was 31. And I guess what I'll just say about that before your next question is that, when I came out, I wrote a blog post, put it on social media, and put it everywhere. And basically, I said, I'm not 100% straight. I'm not 100% cis—I'm not sure if I use that word. No, I probably said male, not 100% male. It was a very negative coming out, it wasn't like positively saying, I'm this, I'm that, because I looked at the letters in the acronym LGBT, and I'm like, I don't think I'm any of those things. I'm not a gay man, because I’m mostly into women. �19 I'm not a lesbian, because I was a man. I’m not bi because I have to have both of those things sorted out to figure that out. I didn't think I was trans because I thought I was still a guy. So, it was like, I know I'm not straight. I'm not male. But I don't know what I am. And honestly, when I came out and approached—starting to meet queer people and try to find my place in the queer world—it was really, really, really hard, because I couldn't articulate to people what I was. And I would just say queer, which is such a wonderful word. Because I felt I belonged with that word in the fact that the word is so unclear in what it encompasses. But yeah, I had so many dates that first year of coming out and dating people, mostly dating women still, but I did go on dates with men and non-binary people. But they would all ask, they'd be like, so what are you? And I could never really answer it. And I thought, this is the riddle of queerness—to neither be cis and straight and not be L, G, B, or T. So that's kind of where I was at when I came out. [33:53] Catherine Jessee: How long did you live in New York? After finding your own apartment? And what year was that? Samantha Rosenthal: Like a year. I moved to New York City in 2009. I was 26, and I �20 was with my wife there until I was 30, 31. I moved to Brooklyn in 2014, when I was 31, and I moved out the next year, when I was 32, which is when I moved to Virginia. So, I had like a year in Brooklyn of queerness. And it was awful. [laughter] People have this metronormative narrative, right? That being queer in New York City, you must be like a kid in a candy shop, and being queer in Appalachia must suck. But for me, the experience has been completely flipped. I was just talking to a New Yorker, a gay man who is from New York recently about this. And I was saying, when I came out as queer in Brooklyn, it was overwhelming. There wasn't just an LGBTQ community, but there's tons of communities, there's tons of different cliques, there's tons of different scenes, and I had no one to mentor me or to guide me into spaces. So, I don't remember going into any kind of LGBTQ group spaces, organizations. Probably I could have tried, but I think I was so embarrassed and unsure about what I was, because I couldn't say, Oh, I'm a gay man, or I'm a lesbian, or I'm trans. None of that made sense to me yet. People saw me as like — I always worried that people saw me as a straight man who is interloping in these spaces. And the queer women I dated had questions about that, too, like, So, are you just a straight man, or what? �21 So, Brooklyn was really lonely and hard for me in that way, versus in Virginia, there's one LGBT community center in the city I live in, there's one gay bar, there's one of many of these things. So, like, I can just go to that one place, and assume that whatever the heck I am, like, whatever letter I am in the alphabet soup of the acronym, that I belong there, in a way that in a big city like New York it was really, really hard to have that sense of belonging. [37:01] Catherine Jessee: You mentioned the one LGBTQ community center. Is that the Diversity Center? Samantha Rosenthal: Yeah. Catherine Jessee: Can you tell me more about what it was like moving to Virginia? Samantha Rosenthal: When I moved to Brooklyn, I then was going into my last year in my Ph.D. program. So, I knew I was going to leave New York anyway. Because I didn't feel like I had a shot at getting a job as a professor in New York, because it's so competitive. So, I applied to like seventy jobs all around the country, and there were a handful that I got interviews at and were interested in bringing me on, and none of them got to the point where I had an offer in writing except for Roanoke College. But the places that I was becoming a finalist in were like — Idaho was one, which, I don't know, I can say right now, Ooo, I'm glad that didn't happen. But that's exactly what I thought about Southwest Virginia too [laughter] at the time. I'm �22 not sure I imagined at the time that either Southwest Virginia or Idaho had anything good going for it when I was in New York. I think one of the jobs was in Connecticut, which seemed more like a known quantity to me. But I knew I was going to move and, actually, I moved out of New York City, I moved out of my apartment before I had a job lined up, because my lease was up, and I just knew New York was done. So I ended up — I had money from a fellowship to finish my Ph.D. that I used to go to Hawaiʻi, where my dissertation research was focused, on Hawaiʻi. So, I left New York in February, I spent the rest of that academic year in Honolulu, where I rented a room. Actually, I dated a man for the first time in Honolulu and had some new experiences there. I started wearing more — doing my nails and some makeup and stuff in Honolulu. I remember where I was, I lived in a boarding house kind of thing. There was six of us in there, it was all women, and they saw me as a gay person—they saw me as a gay man—but it was the first time I had been openly seeing... they knew I was going on dates with this guy, and they were like very perplexed by my feminine embodiment that I was starting to come into, and they were like really, really supportive of that, of me being a gay man, and I had never experienced being out around people in that way. So, it was good. But anyway, that �23 money ran out, and I got a fellowship in Boston that summer, and then I moved there, by that point, the job had been lined up and I moved to Virginia in August. So that year was 2015, and I just bounced all around. When I moved down here in August of 2015, I was in a really precarious place in my life in many ways. I mean, being queer — I had been out at that point for almost a year and a half, but I still had no fucking idea like what I was. And I reached out to the Diversity Center before I even came, before I showed up, like, reached out and said, Hey, I'm moving down there. And I said that like, I'm a history professor, and I'd be really interested in doing some LGBT history project work stuff—that had already been like formulating in my mind. I think I also connected with Joe Cobb, who was the pastor at MCC church in Roanoke, which is a gay church. He's now the first openly gay elected official in Roanoke city, but at the time he was a pastor at this gay church. I connected with him, too, I think, before I moved down. I may have connected also with the president of Roanoke Pride by email, which is the organization that puts on the pride festival. So, I just reached out to a lot of these contacts I found online. I was like, Hey, I'm moving down there. I don't know what I said about myself, that I'm queer — that’s probably the language I used — and I'm a professor, and I'm �24 interested in getting involved in the community and offering my skills as a historian. So, I very clearly had conceptualized that merging my work as a historian in with LGBTQ stuff would be a way to make community, to find people, to have a sense of belonging in this new place. And I write about that in my book, just that there was something strategic about this project for me, at the beginning of trying to find my people, so I feel safe. The college struck me as a very heteronormative institution. It is a Christian college, and I didn’t — Catherine Jessee: Roanoke College? Samantha Rosenthal: Roanoke College. Yeah, and I didn't initially meet any out queer faculty, although later I did. But so initially, I felt like… and I wasn't out when I applied for the job. I was completely closeted and just presented myself as a white, straight man, which has been the great surprise for my colleagues that they now have a trans woman lesbian colleague [laughter]. But I mean, I guess I knew that I needed to be out, and I would need to do that process, and I knew that I needed to be around LGBTQ people, and that wasn't going to happen at the college, and so yeah... I hit the ground running. Within a month of moving here, we had had our first meeting of the history project. �25 A couple of months later, I joined the board of the Diversity Center. I served on their board for two years, and I just started getting involved with everything LGBTQ — and dating, also. And to try to see if I could make a life for myself here in a way that I wasn't able to do in New York. It's like a second coming out, a second chance at what does it mean to be queer in the world? And what does that look like? And this was an odd place to do that work, obviously, although it's not odd for people who grew up here, they have to do that. But, for me as a New Yorker — yeah, I mean, maybe it felt somewhat scary, but it felt also very exciting, to —especially the [Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+] History Project—to be able to be on the cusp of new work, to help people in a community do new things and think about our queer — think about our community in a new way, like that felt purposeful and exciting. [45:04] Catherine Jessee: How did the History Project come to be? You mentioned that started pretty quickly within I think you said a month or a few months. How did that start? Samantha Rosenthal: Yeah, I think I had been in touch with Frank House who is the co-founder of the Diversity Center, and I suggested to him that I would be happy to do a workshop at the center around LGBT history. I still have the notes for the workshop, which are �26 interesting to look back on. I didn't have any training — I don't have training in LGBTQ history. Some gender studies stuff, but really not — that's not really what my training as a historian is. But I cobbled together some—for the workshop, I cobbled together a bit of a presentation about, What does LGBTQ history look like? And particularly, what do community-based LGBT history projects look like? A big example I shared with them was the History Project in Boston, which is one of the oldest LGBTQ history projects. I had been in Boston that summer, like I said, and I intersected a little bit with that project when I was there, because I knew I was going to Roanoke. I took one of their walking tours and read some of their materials, and I wanted to learn from that project as an example. So, I talked about that one. I may have talked about some other projects, and then we did a lot of workshoppy stuff. We were there for two hours that first meeting, and the workshoppy stuff was with big pieces of paper and markers and splitting into groups, which is one of my favorite tactics still to this day, and asking people to brainstorm. And the brainstorming was like, What do you — what would you want an LGBT history project to achieve? Like, what do we — what should we do? What should we work on? What do you want to work on? And we left that first meeting with two big mandates that they had come up with. There was like 18 people in the room that night, so �27 we split into a bunch of groups, and they each presented and where the overlap was: oral histories was one of the mandates that had come up several times that they wanted to do interviews with elders. I was like, Okay, I can help with that. I had like no training at that point in oral history. I think I'd done a little bit in grad school in the mid-2000s, a long time before. And then the other one was to develop an archive to collect people's papers. And we met a few more times — the project met throughout the fall on that question in terms of like, where would we want to… where will we want these archives to be? Like, would we partner with an institution or create our own or whatever? We ended up partnering with the Roanoke Public Libraries, which have been an amazing partner. And a big impetus for choosing the public library that came from the mostly gay men who are involved in the project at that time was that they felt like it was already like a known space to them, that they knew the public library, they felt largely safe there. They thought that that was a place they felt very accessible, versus… they were very opposed to Roanoke College or Virginia Tech or something like that controlling these materials, because they felt that they didn't trust the colleges and universities to give them access and give them �28 authority, share authority, and like, really collaborate. So that's how we ended up with the public library. Catherine Jessee: That really makes me think — thinking about how the product is today versus when it started, can you tell me about how it looks today and how it's changed? [49:25] Samantha Rosenthal: Well, it's changed a lot. I think when we started that — one thing that I've done a lot of reflecting on, and that I would say we have reflected on as a group as a project, is who's involved and who has the mic and questions of power and representation. I mean, the very first meeting at the Diversity Center when the project was founded was a really good mix of people young and old and white and nonwhite and different genders and sexualities, and there were some trans women there, there were Black LGBT people. But within the first few months of the project, it had — the people who kept going to meetings, who stayed engaged, who helped select the first round of oral history narrators, who helped establish the archives and get that off the ground, were mostly white gay men. And so, it was important that we reflected — and I did a lot of reflecting on why that was. It could have been partially because I also presented, I think, to many people as a white gay cis man at the time when this project started. So as people in the community �29 looked to think like, What is this project about? Who is this new professor? Is this about me? They may not have seen themselves reflected in it. I think that's always a question about leadership and representation, and the question of leadership is a complicated one for our project because we've never had elected leaders, and we've debated that and we've always said that we don't want to have officers, we don't want to elect people, we don't want to incorporate, and it always inevitably means that my role is… I've never been dethroned from my role that I think I fall into very easily—though not uncritically—but easily in this project as “the professor,” quote-unquote, because the hundreds of people who have engaged in the project over the past six years are LGBTQ people in the community and over the whole course of time skew young and skew not-male. They do skew white still, but I feel like I've — I think I've always continued to be a kind of a spokesperson and coordinator, and that's challenging in that I'm constantly revisiting that question of, how does leadership work? But anyway, going back. We went through some growing pains in 2016, or in our first into second year, where I was really disappointed with the first round of oral histories we did, because they were so overwhelmingly with older white gay cis men, and I just thought we weren't doing this right. We can't just — we can't �30 just open the door to invitation and whoever comes in… you know, whoever floats to the top, is the people we work with. Because there's a lot of questions of privilege and access and power that play into the question of whether someone shows up at the meeting or not, or whether someone agrees to do the interview or not, or whether someone donates their papers or not, and so I think if we do this uncritically and just open the door and say, Come, give, give your stories, help us plan the project, we end up reinforcing systems of power and privilege that already exist, we just reify those and they keep cycling through. And it's true if you look at the landscape of LGBTQ organizing in the city, historically but still to this day, most organizations are run by white gay men. Or the chair people of nonprofits are white gay men, and I think we come up against this big challenge, which is the way people envision what LGBTQ history is—[I’ll] do my air quotes here, "LGBTQ history”—When people think about, What are the stories? Who are the actors? What happened? What matters? I think we—many of us—fall back into imagining white people or gay men or something like that. In my mind it’s a little different, after all this time what I imagine is not that, but I think with my students and others, that is what they imagine. [54:51] So, we changed that and I'm not exactly sure how it �31 changed. A lot of young queer women got involved in 2016 to the point that once we were like a year into the project, the meetings were mostly queer women in their twenties. White, mostly white queer women, who had taken over the mantle of decision making as a group, because that's how we make decisions at our meetings based on whoever's there through… we try to do it through consensus. Or when we launched our walking tours, all of our walking tour guides at first were young queer women. And to this day, with a couple exceptions, all of our guides have been queer women—and there are exceptions—but mostly white queer women. And our second round of oral histories was all with queer women. The project definitely changed in that way, and then in 2017, we in 2018 won a grant to do specifically QTPOC work—queer/trans people of color organizing—and we hired young Black queer women—four Black queer women who were in their late teens and early twenties. We trained them — we hired them, trained them in oral history, they did interviews with Black queer elders, and the relationships with the Black queer elders — the young women have gone on and done other things with their lives, but the Black queer elders have remained a key part of our project since then. We won another grant a year ago, I think, at the start of COVID, �32 specifically for money for Black queer women to organize events here in Roanoke. So that's also been a very intentional part of our work is providing resources to and supporting Black queer organizing in the city, and the first explicitly Black queer organization did form a couple years ago here, and we still try to work with them and support them however we can. I think that in my naivety as a white queer person, when we started doing work with the Black LGBTQ community here in Roanoke, which is a significant, large community—but historically unorganized, and historically marginalized by the white LGBTQ groups and spaces— When we started doing that work, I think we imagined that we, as in the white LGBT people involved in the group, we thought that we would recruit Black LGBTQ people into the History Project and into leadership positions, and the project would change. And I think what's happened otherwise is that we have provided training and resources and visibility and empowerment to Black LGBTQ people, and they've created their own spaces and their own organizations and stuff, which is fucking fantastic. That's great. And I think that as we continue to revisit this question, which we did a lot this summer with the uprisings after George Floyd's murder and stuff, we came back to this question, and we had a big meeting in the park this summer—despite COVID, but we did it outside—where we had members of this new Black �33 LGBT group in town, and then some of the old-standing white LGBTQ members of the History Project, and we talked about, like, where do the things stand on this issue of white supremacy and racism within our LGBTQ community, and within the history work itself? And I think we're on the same page now about continuing to think about it as white queer folks doing work and funneling resources and funneling knowledge and funneling tools into the hands of Black LGBT people, rather than some kind of great amalgamation or coopting or something like that. So, those are ways that it's changed. Obviously, I've changed, too. For me coming out as a trans woman—this is a big part of my book—is just trying to think about my own subjectivity and how my own view about LGBT history and what matters and how stories should be told has changed as I have gone through the length of this project—from moving through the world as a white cis man to moving through the world as a white trans dyke. And my interactions for example, with the white cis gay male community have, I guess I could say, deteriorated [laughter]. I mean, in as much as that when I first moved here, people read me as a white gay man, and I went to house parties or I’d go to the gay bar and all these gay men would talk to me and I had a lot of relationships there. And those are mostly all gone. I don't think I �34 have any white... okay, maybe one [laughter]. There are very few white cis gay men in my life now. I do so much more organizing with trans people. And I would say then that the other really important community to me is the lesbian community. So, it's interesting to think about — just think about subjectivity and how there was a time in the project when I and my friend who's a trans man, that we, the two of us, just started really pushing trans issues to the forefront in the project. And that felt a politically important and operative thing to do. But it's also very clearly self-centered in a way. Okay, my last thought on this—I know I’ve not given you a lot of time for questions— there was an older white cis gay man. This was maybe two summers ago we had a—we do a lot of these things in the park, where we have potlucks and gather and do social stuff… Catherine Jessee: Is that Pride in the Park? [1:01:00] Samantha Rosenthal: It wasn’t, no, these are our own History Project gatherings that we do every year in the park. As we create our own social spaces, our own — I don't know, it's important, I think, for many of us that the project is a community and it's not just work. But there was an older white cis gay man who came two years ago to one of these gatherings and clearly looked and felt out of place and then told me, he was like, I don't think that this history project �35 is for me, it seems like y'all are doing — y'all have other things going on. And it's sad, because in the early days of the project, I thought that one of the great successes of it was that we were creating new spaces of sociality and community and storytelling among the elders that — they could go to the gay bar, but they wouldn't have those connections and be able to tell those stories, and there weren't spaces like that. And so the History Project I think at first offered up this space that was a way for a certain generation of people to connect with each other over a shared love of the past or shared interest in the past. And I do think we've lost a lot of that, and I think that that's negative. I think the project much more now is people in their twenties and thirties who are more political — it's more politicized, more politically radical. And a lot of the people involved now did not live through this history. Their interest in it, I think, is more about using queer history as a way to… as a way to engage in contemporary issues, as a way to empower and stuff, but I don't know. Yeah. It's definitely changed and it will keep changing. Okay, I'll take a break now. Catherine Jessee: You're fine. Samantha Rosenthal: Okay. Catherine Jessee: We are a little bit over an hour, though, and I just wanted to just remain sensitive to your time and ask, how much do you feel like you might have? Like another 10 or 20 minutes or so? �36 Samantha Rosenthal: I could do twenty, yeah. Catherine Jessee: Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah so — you mentioned you had a friend, where you both pushed or at some point started pushing more conversations around trans inclusivity within the History Project. When was that, would you say? [1:04:42] Samantha Rosenthal: Well, I met him in 2016 and — yeah, he probably got involved in the project in the latter half of 2016. I write about in the book this meeting we had. This would probably have been late—I'm guessing late 2016. There were two older white trans women who were involved in the project from the get-go. They were our first oral histories with trans people, and they attended lots of meetings, and they were very involved in decision making stuff, which was fantastic. I remember meeting—this is probably a year into the project, so late 2016—one or both of those trans women were there. They were probably in their sixties or even older, and also one of them brought a cis woman friend, also to the meeting, and then Ollie, my transmasculine friend, and I were there. And someone brought up the issue of the term “queer,” and this comes up often in these multi-generational conversations. And the older trans woman but I think it was actually the cis friend who was most vocal about this saying, like, That's a slur. We shouldn't use the word queer in the programming that the project does. It’s �37 very alienating, and it's offensive, and let's use different terms, whatever. And then I remember Ollie — I was getting visibly upset or something — but I could see across the room that he was too and then he piped in and was like, I'm queer. I identify as that. This term is really important to me. And then he was explaining how it was reclaimed in the ‘90s and the whole history of the term, and what it means to young people today especially. And it was one of those moments where—those two older trans women bowed out of the project, at some point, by the end of that year. We didn't really see them again. I did, I saw them at events and stuff, but they weren't involved in the project after that—and even though we were debating the term queer there, I think that there was a kind of passing of the guard around trans stuff, too. I was just-just-just coming — transitioning —just coming out myself. And yeah, and then I would say into 2017, we developed a program called “Living Trans History,” which was an interactive theater program with youth that we first premiered in a local high school with kids, and then we did at a summer camp for several years with LGBTQ youth. And yeah — that was the first explicitly trans history thing that we did. And that was Ollie, myself, and my ex who at the time identified as a cis woman. The three of us, we put that together, and it was based on oral histories with trans �38 people that we'd done in the project. So, it was bringing the voices of the elders out, but it was really about connecting with young, teenage trans and non-binary and gender nonconforming youth, and trying to bridge that seemingly unbridgeable generational divide between different ideas about transness. And it was a really, really, really cool program, and I write about it a lot in my trans chapter in my book. But yeah, so that's an example of emphases shifting or approaches shifting as different people get involved and different people leave the project. I think we've done more women's history as more women, young women, have become involved in the project. We've definitely tried to be more intentional around that. We did an event where we connected lesbian elders who had been organized here in the ‘80s with young, queer women, and they were able to share across the generation with each other. So, yeah. Catherine Jessee: How did you and Ollie meet? [1:09:53] Samantha Rosenthal: Yeah, we met at one of our—I think it was our last one that we did—What did we call these? Archive collection events. This was in the first year of the project. �39 After we developed the archive with the public libraries, we realized that we needed to do events to gather material. We couldn't just say, There's an archive now, drop off things. We wanted to create spaces that felt welcoming and known to LGBTQ people, so we did those events. We did one in the gay bar on a night when it wasn't normally open, but they did serve drinks and stuff. And that was a really cool event, and people brought materials to donate. We did one at the Diversity Center, and we did two at different churches, and I met — Ollie was volunteering at one of these churches at the time, working with queer youth, and that's how we met. So, I mean, that's a good example of how people got involved in the project too, it is just so many random ways. We met Ollie through the archive collection event at the UU [Unitarian Universalist] church. We met another young, queer woman who got involved, attended a talk I gave at the Co-Lab—which is like a co-working space— about the History Project early on. And she ended up getting involved for many years. My ex, who was very involved in the project—and our relationship is very interwoven with the project, which is something I write about in the book, because that was unexpected—but they got �40 involved by first doing an oral history interview for the project, and then stayed involved. And then — someone who's really involved in the project now, I think, first intersected with the project on one of our bar crawls, which is an event we haven't done in a bit, but every spring, we would, on a Friday night, we would do an event where we would go from one historic gay bar to the next historic gay bar around Downtown Roanoke to six different sites and get a drink at that place if it's still a bar today, or at a nearby place. Some of them are now straight establishments, and some of them are not bars at all anymore, but we'd get a drink nearby. And we've done that for many years. And I remember, someone who's involved in the project pretty heavily now did the crawl, and we raffled off these hats that say Make Roanoke Queer Again, which was our slogan we adopted early on in the project before Trump was elected. During the campaign, the 2016 campaign, someone in the project came up with that slogan. So, we have these hats that say, Make Roanoke Queer Again. They're not red, they're blue, because we don't want people to mistake what they are [laughter]. But we raffle off those �41 hats at events, and they got the hat at the event, and then they've been involved for like four years since then. So, there's all kinds of ways that people have been involved. I told you I think that we've had some teenagers who have been involved long term in the project as well. One is like my adopted child, who I met when they were 15, and we met at the Diversity Center. They were volunteering there on something, and heard about the work we were doing with the LGBT Library, the historic books and stuff like that, which is a whole ‘nother aspect of the project. And she got involved in that, and — we still have a very close relationship now that they went off to college, and I think they're 20 years old now. But as long as they were here in the area, they were very involved in the project. They gave walking tours and stuff like that. And then more recently, we had another high school student who I think just reached out to me on social media or something like that, and was like, Hey, any opportunities to get involved? And we met up and discovered that she could, during a break at the school during the school day, she would leave school and go to the public library to the archives to digitize materials for an hour, and then go back to school. And she did that for a year and digitized a huge amount of material for us. It was really helpful. So, I love having �42 young people involved, because of course, this is in the context of our school systems here saying, Oh, it's not appropriate to talk about homosexuality in school or whatever. And it's like, Well, let me at them. I'll give them an education if they get involved in the project. [1:15:10] Catherine Jessee: Can you walk me through the bar crawl? If that were as it's happened in the past or if it were to happen today? That evening? Samantha Rosenthal: Yeah. So — Catherine Jessee: The spaces and their names? Samantha Rosenthal: Okay, so it's changed. Okay, the first one we did was 2016, and I think the last one we did was 2019, because then we've been in COVID time since then. The route has changed every year. We always revisit it and discuss it at our project meetings, because some of the places we get drinks at are homophobic and then we debate the value of us queering the space, which is more of the ‘guerrilla gay bar’ tactic of like, Let's take over this straight place, and make it gay for the night, versus the question of withholding our money—which would be the other alternative—from such a place because they suck. And — I guess that's a philosophical question for the whole guerrilla gay bar movement itself about putting money into these straight institutions as part of a political action of taking up spaces, is complicated. �43 We almost always start… well, we start, at the City Market building downtown, and talk about the history of sex work right outside of that building, and particularly trans sex workers and share some of those stories from oral histories. And then we go into Billy's for the first drink, we've always done that. Billy’s is a very straight place that opened up [in] I think 1980 or early ‘80s. At the time when there were still many trans sex workers right outside of Billy’s. We have lots of stories in the oral history collection of how the white elite diners inside of Billy’s would just gaze out the windows at the trans sex workers and their johns and it was a show for them to watch. So, I always find that when I walk by there or in there that I'm engaging in some kind of subversive reenactment with my own trans woman body of like I've gone from the street outside to inside, although I'm not a sex worker, but thinking about the representation there of how my body is seen in that space. So that's always an interesting space to go to. We've never faced any big issues there, but it's definitely interesting to have a bunch of queer and trans people suddenly show up [laughter]. And we move on from there to visit the site of The Last Straw, which was the second gay bar to ever open in Roanoke in 1973. It's �44 a church now. So, we stand outside of that and talk and then we get a drink nearby. We stopped getting drinks at Corned Beef, which is nearby, because — there were some bad incidents there where they ejected some trans women of color from the bar and stuff like that, so we stopped going there. We would go on to Nite and Day which was a short-lived gay bar on Kirk Avenue that was open for like a year in the late ‘70s. That's now the bar Lucky, which is kind of an upscale place and we got barred at the door of Lucky the first year. They wouldn't let us inside [laughter] which was great because we had a reporter and a photographer from the Roanoke Times with us, so when the Roanoke Times did the story of the bar crawl they started with Lucky barring us from entering, which I thought was juicy [laughter]. Then we went on to Murphy's which was a disco in the late ‘70s, a gay discotheque which is now Martin’s, which is a very straight place. The first year we went there, the bouncers were outside listening to us talk about the history before we went in. And then as we went up to the door, they were — they were weird, but they �45 let us in. Keep in mind there was like 20 to 25 of us, so we were like a big pack, which is… that's the rationale Lucky gave us for barring us they said, it’s too many of you, you won't fit. They let us into Martin's, but the bouncers as they were checking IDs, they were like, This is a family establishment, keep it cool, basically telling us to de-queer ourselves [laughter]. And then we'd wander off down to the site of the Horoscope, which was the first disco in 1975 it opened up. And that's now condos and stuff. [1:20:23] Then down the street to Backstreet, which is no… Backstreet doesn't exist anymore. But when we started, it was still Backstreet, and we never went in there because they often charged covers because they'd have shows and we didn't want to pay covers. But we talked with the manager outside of the bar, who was a trans woman at the time when we started the bar crawl, and that was a great encounter. But then she was fired, and they rebranded the place, it's now called the Front Row. And it's like de-gayed, and it's been de-gayed over the past twenty years since the Backstreet Cafe shooting in 2000. But this process has culminated with the erasure, of the full erasure of the gayness of that site, so we don't go there anymore. Sometimes we would get a drink across the street at Beamer’s, but then one year they said something to us like, we �46 don't usually get your kind here. People in our group were peeved about that treatment, so we stopped going there. And then we'd walk down the street, from Salem Avenue down to The Park and then end at The Park and dance [laughter]. So, I don't know. I mean, if we did it again after COVID, I think we'll have to meet and talk about the route again and think about — because it's gotten heated at times as people have debated, Where should we go and spend our money? Or like, Do we want to try and crash this place? Our numbers have dwindled over the years too. The first time was such a spectacle with like 25 people at its height, and I think the last time was maybe 10 people throughout the night, which is still super fun. And people—every year, it's people that we've never met before, who have not engaged with the History Project ever before—and we get super drunk together after that many stops. And it's just queer people. I love the event, because it's historical, it's about history, people are learning about their city. It's just super fun, and entertaining, and social, and so I think it's a great kind of public history project. Catherine Jessee: How do people learn about that? If they're not involved in the History Project proper? Samantha Rosenthal: Probably on social media — we have a Facebook and �47 Instagram. And that's long been a beast for people to take responsibility to manage those. But most recently, we've had a wonderful Research Assistant from Roanoke College. So, I'm able to hire one student a year with work study funds or stuff like that, who will be a research assistant for the project, which is fantastic, because people in the project will always have things they want to do like, Could we do an exhibit on XYZ? Do we have any material on this? Whatever. And we’ve always have—we've had a student, that’s been true since the beginning of the project, we've always had one undergraduate student who's getting paid. But the current Research Assistant has done a great job with also managing social media as part of their job. So finally, we don't have to worry about who's going to post something about this event or whatever. But yeah, that's mostly Facebook, probably. We have a bigger presence on Facebook than Instagram and [we] make event pages and people sign up for the event. That's pretty much how it's been. Catherine Jessee: I have one last question — I guess, a couple more last questions, if that’s okay. What are you proudest of in your work, in your work as an organizer in Southwest Virginia? Take all the time you need. [1:24:49] Samantha Rosenthal: I think it's the community. I mean, that's the most important part to me. The History Project is — there's so much messy overlap, at least in my life, but I think it's true of other people who've been �48 involved in the project. There's a lot of overlap between friends and lovers and projects, and I think it's really important to this kind of work, that it is social and that we create… that we have relationships with each other and build community. Now, like I said before, I mean, there are people who feel excluded from that — that's real — who don't feel like the space is for them, or that they don't feel represented in the space, or they don't feel included, and that's changed over time. But there always will be people who feel like the History Project is not their scene. And that is — and it’s something that we work on, and it's also okay, I think, because there are other scenes. And if you think of the History Project as a kind of LGBT community, there are other spaces. There's the bar, there's the community center. There are groups, there are groups of elders who gather and do things. There's a dinner club that's been going on for almost 20 years of older gay men. So, I think the History Project particularly appeals to LGBTQ people in their young adulthood, twenties and thirties, out of college, or maybe never went—many of the people never went to college. But in that time where you don't have a gay club, or like you don't have a very structured thing that you would get involved in. It’s all volunteer, it's always been all volunteer, except when we've gotten grants to give little stipends to people or paid the one student at the college. But otherwise, everyone's involvement has �49 always been volunteer. And it's like, What motivates someone to volunteer in their community? And I think it can't just be because queer history is interesting. I think that's a part of it, but I think it's because people seek belonging, people seek community. I do. I mean, just speaking for myself, that's a huge role the project has played for me. And so, I think that the greatest success of the project is mobilizing queer people to be actors in their own history, to feel a sense of authorship over the story of our city, of our region, of our community, to feel a sense of maybe pride—I hate the whole discourse of pride in LGBTQ spaces—but maybe feel a pride of place, especially in a region of the country that we learn—if you grew up here, or we are told otherwise—that it's not a queer space. I mean, I think that history is a tool that I've seen young people here use when they're involved in the project to say, Did you know this? Did you know that? This place is so queer. It's always been queer. So, I think there's a sense of belonging that comes from that knowledge that we belong here. I think about it on the most personal and interpersonal level about like, if the project helps queer people feel like they belong here, and then if they can meet other queer people and do fun things and think about their place in �50 the world and their place in time and space as a queer person, then that is — that is an amazing thing. [1:29:08] Catherine Jessee: Samantha, I don't have any more specific questions for you, but before we fully wrap up, is there anything else that you'd like to add or you'd like to be on the record that we haven't discussed yet today? Samantha Rosenthal: I don't think so. This was really lovely. Thanks. Catherine Jessee: Thank you so much. Samantha Rosenthal: Thank you. [1:29:36] End of Interview � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Dr. Gregory Samantha Rosenthal Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Dr. Gregory Samantha Rosenthal Interviewer: Catherine Jessee Interviewer: Dr. Gregory Samantha Rosenthal Date: 6 April 2021 Location: Online via Zencastr Duration: 1:29:39 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6 April 2021 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dr. Gregory Samantha Rosenthal, Catherine Jessee Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rosenthal https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5968/SaundersL-1.MP3 182af0342d4da72807eb5031e8489f0d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5968/SaundersL-2.MP3 97a4376ece38e46c81093e00792eda0b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5968/SaundersL.1.pdf ca2704372cca79e0bb84339ec1da771b PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with L Saunders February 27, 2022 Interviewer: Madelyne Culkin Interviewee: L Saunders Date: February 27, 2022 Total Duration: 59:14 (in two parts: 45:57 and 13:17) Location: Fintel Library 220 High Street Roanoke College Salem, VA 24153 Transcribed by: Andrew Austin, Mel Staton, Madelyne Culkin, and Barney 00:00 – growing up in Blacksburg, Virginia (1986 – early 2000s); how ruralness impacted their approach to queerness 02:32 – spending time in Richmond for college (mid-2000s) and in London for graduate school 04:16 – how their work (as a documentarian) brings them into contact with queer people 06:11 – returning to Blacksburg in their mid-thirties (late 2010s) 07:04 – introduction and explanation of career in documentary film and photography; involvement in documenting pipeline resistance [the Mountain Valley Pipeline] in Appalachia 12:56 – finding like-minded people in pipeline resistance; ethical approaches to storytelling 15:42 – how queerness was discussed in their high school (early 2000s) 19:58 – views on same-sex marriage 20:46 – Southern approaches to queerness; how that varies geographically around the U.S. 25:53 - thoughts on Pride, and the Backstreet Cafe shooting (2000) 28:53 – changes in Blacksburg and in Floyd over the years 33:05 – message to their younger self; more reflections on artistic practice 37:42 – coming out after returning from London 40:31 – the current moment of Southern queer organizing; rural queer spaces _________________________________________ 00:00 L’s name change; using the label ‘queer’ 03:35 realization of queerness 09:43 Self validation and comfortability 1 �0:00 MC: Alright, so my name is Madelyne Culkin. It’s February twenty-seventh of 2022. It’s about twelve-thirty and we’re at the Fintel Library on the Roanoke College campus. And I’m here interviewing L Saunders. So if you could just tell me a little bit about yourself, your name, where you grew up, how old you are. 00:21 LS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you said, my name is L Saunders. I grew up over in Blacksburg not far down the road. And basically [I] was there until I took off for college to go to Richmond. And I currently just turned 36. So yeah… MC: Awesome. LS: Yeah. 00:41 MC: So growing up in Blacksburg, do you think that had an impact at all on being a part of the LGBTQ community? LS: Yeah, definitely so. Growing up here, so I was like in elementary school in the ‘90s. And then graduated early 2000s. And I would say the climate around here was very different. Even though now you still really feel like the rural influence, I guess, of how people are allowed to be gay or allowed to be queer in like certain spaces. I would definitely say that for me, growing up here, it just wasn’t even really presented as an option. I would say it was like a really big influence that it wasn’t …. like it was sort of a thing that people would refer to, but there was a very small sort of, you know, ally club. 01:38 MC: Unspoken? 01:39 LS: Yeah, yeah. It was very rural in that way. And so, I feel like, for me, it was like anything that now I really see, like, beauty and my queerness and how I identify, I would ascribe to other things, I think, because of being in a rural place, and because of the way people treated just like even the idea that someone would be, you know, a queer person. So, yeah, it was deeply impactful. And I think ultimately just made it so I was moving through differently until I was in spaces where I was around other queer folks, and could have conversations. 2 �And that really took a long time. Like, I think it normalized for me, just thinking parts about myself were attributed to something else and not my queerness. I would say maybe it’s like a more crystallized way to put that. 02:32 MC: That’s very interesting. So, you said you went back and forth? To Blacksburg? 02:39 LS: So yeah, so I went away to school. [My] undergrad was in Richmond; I was an art school kid. So yeah. All the joys of that. And then was back for a little bit, and then went to grad school in London. And then came back again. So I’ve kind of like done stints here and there. But very recently came back and have been here for a couple years. And in like the last couple years is the first time that I’ve actually been here and been out and like been, you know, in queer spaces, and really much more confident in my own queerness. Like it really took me a while to come around to acknowledging and sharing and feeling like I was celebrating it and not just being kind of confused about what was going on for me, you know. And I do think growing up here was deeply influential in that way. My sister’s also queer, and we’ve talked a lot about it in recent years of just like how easy it is to just ignore and like tell yourself that you’re fine with other options or like, you know, “that’s not… whatever, it’s okay.” But I think, being back especially, and being able to be queer here has been, to be honest, it’s just been really healing and like sacred, because it’s like, I look around and I see all the reasons why it’s still hard for people in this area. And it feels really good to see things like this happening and to see people celebrating it and making very public declarations of like, the beauty of it, you know? So it makes it special, honestly. 04:16 MC: Do you think there was any space that you felt like the most comfortable in or the most opening that really made you recognize your queerness? You said you were in London and going to Richmond…? 04:20 LS: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a slow burn, right? Like we are who we are, and I think that there were always moments of recognition that there was something about myself that didn’t fall in line with like what had been prescribed to me. And so I’ve lived a life where I moved a lot and I lived a life that’s like less quote-unquote ’conventional,’ right? Like, my relationships have always looked different. And now I see they were queer, like, even if they presented as not queer to other people. They were queer, right? So like, understanding what that means and getting to be around people. I would say, you know, my work ultimately brought me into places—well, I kept choosing places—that were resistance-oriented, or like 3 �mutual aid groups or, you know, spaces like that where people were really just welcoming and inclusive and I got to ask questions about gender and I got to ask questions about like how do we relate to each other? So, I mean, it’s vague, but it’s like there were so many little moments I think along the way, until, you know, finally it was just, well, either I live my life or I don’t and I’m gonna live my life. Like it stopped being a thing that could not be addressed. It was just like, well, here we are, you know? And it was joyful, right? It was like, “Oh, God. it makes sense now!” Like, everything makes sense! 05:45 MC: I think that’s an important thing, that comparison, especially coming back to Blacksburg and being able to recognize everything that you were uncomfortable with, or that you just didn’t recognize, and now being able to compare it to who you are today. 05:53 LS: Yeah. Or felt judged by, right? Like the pieces of me that I was told either, like, explicitly or subtly aren’t acceptable, right? For like who I am, and being able to just be like, “Nah, that’s still really cool. It’s great.” MC: Awesome. 06:10 LS: Yeah. 06:11 MC: So do you think your family was… did your family have an impact on you coming back to Blacksburg? 06:17 LS: Yeah, for sure, in certain ways. So, my mom and stepdad—I just call my dad—they’re both still here. And yeah, having connections to the community feels really important to me. I’ve been pretty deeply involved in the pipeline resistance struggles here, and doing documentation work. And that’s actually just a really queer space. I could say that has like let me be excited about having more queer folks in the area, like that’s an area where I was just like, I feel good here, you know? So yeah, but my parents are here. And I just feel a very deep connection to like the physical space of the mountains here, having grown up here and stuff like that. MC: Awesome. 4 �LS: Yeah. 7:04 MC: So you said that you’re a photographer and a filmmaker, and that the pipeline is what made you come back here. So, would you say you do more activism film work or nature? Or do you film or photograph subjects? 07:19 LS: All the time. It’s mostly documentary work. I had a stint in D.C., and I’ve done, you know, corporate jobs that let me like pay my rent and stuff. And I always find, what I love about it is that you get to be introduced into people’s worlds in a very intimate way. And like, very often I get to be around people who are, you know, for whatever reason, they’re excited to share their life with me, or like someone wants them to and so they’re doing it, but I would say most of my stories have been—the self-chosen ones—have been a lot about organizing spaces, and resistance spaces, but also just like community and what we do for each other, which I think also ultimately, I’ve realized, is very tied into what I don’t think I had as a kid or like what I didn’t really feel, and wanting to tell stories where people get to see like how special that is. So yeah. 08:18 MC: And do you think your queerness or your sexuality has shaped that work expression? Like, are there certain instances where you’ve definitely noticed it in your work? 08:28 LS: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the physicality of my job on any given day, I think, I feel like it does sort of push against these gender norms that were given about what work should look like for certain people or even like media-making for women, for women filmmakers, or for you know, femme folks, like what are you allowed to do and what space…? Like I interact on frontline spaces quite a bit where there’s like a lot of cops who like bro out and like will just kind of put you in this category of being someone that, you know, can be handled in a certain way. And so, I let them. I’m like, “Okay, you can think what you want.” Like, this is fine. I’ll use this to my advantage. But like, it’s funny, because now I see the sort of power dynamics of it. And, I think, because I’ve had to interrogate and fight for my queerness I feel so much more comfortable letting people assume what they want, and moving the way I need to anyway, if that makes sense. And I think that’s deeply in my work. Like I see it everywhere, you know, of like, I’m here because I’m curious, but also because I’m kind of used to being misinterpreted, you know. Even in queer spaces, I present a certain way I think sometimes and I felt people will sort of dismiss different pieces. And I think as I’ve gotten more comfortable, it’s bothered me less, but I think that sort of tension of who we know we 5 �are and who people see us as I think I find myself also looking for that in the stories I tellof like complicating things and letting layers move and letting people feel what they want to feel from it. So yeah, deeply buried. MC: Interesting. LS: Yeah. 10:11 MC: Are there any photographers or artists that have influenced your work the most, do you think? Is there anyone that you look up to? 10:18 LS: Oh, gosh, I would have made a good list. I’m so bad. My ADHD is like “blah.” Yeah, so many. Geez. Gosh, it makes me want to like email you after with my favorite things? Well, so recently, I’ve really enjoyed looking at the Highlander Center. And like, Appalachian projects, because there’s such a great legacy of documented resistance here. And of clearly queer stories that feel really special and cool to me. And feel very much like things that I felt around me but weren’t talked about directly, I guess is how I would describe that. Yeah, I mean, like all the documentation of the coal mine wars, and the mine strikes and just stuff like that, like I think that all has been deeply influential around here for the pipeline stuff that I’m working on. And then like in a wider context. There’s different photographers over the years that have meant… Gilles Peress is a photographer that I really loved when I first started. And more so for the trajectory, like he started off as a war photographer, which somehow I thought that’s what I wanted to do, because that’s what you see. But as he grew older, and as he got out of the war zone spaces, he started making just like really beautiful collective work. And so I really identified with that art of like thinking, you need to do it one way, and then transforming through it and realizing I actually want to do this a little differently. But I’ve also just been deeply influenced by friends and colleagues and collaborators of mine. Doing my MA in London was deeply influential in that way. And I had a handful of folks who I really felt like pushed me in a direction that I wouldn’t have gone otherwise. And let me ask the kind of questions that kind of tore apart the hierarchy of storytelling that we’re handed of like making one thing more important, or something less important, you know, just sort of like the predictable ways of talking about stuff. So yeah, that’s not many people, but it’s references. Yeah. 12:40 MC: That’s okay. Yeah, we can always go back to it. But I know that’s hard. Pinpointing like certain people… 6 �LS: on the spot, right? MC: Yeah. And there’s so many influential people. LS: And I’ve changed. I’ve just had so many people who I feel like I quietly carry with me of like their work. I think about them a lot. And like, they’ll come in at different moments. 12:56 MC: Yeah. Like you said, you have people that are within that work. Do you think that the people that you surround yourself with has changed as you [have] grown? And do you think that it’s become more like… I know that you talk about the dichotomy and like realizing what has changed from being younger and being less open about yourself, and like opening up back in Blacksburg? But do you feel like there are certain communities that you’ve kind of felt the most in touch with or certain issues that you feel like you can connect with people the most on? It doesn’t have to be queer related, but… 13:28 LS: Yeah, yeah. I think part of what helped me be more accepting or like acknowledge myself, and I don’t feel like I was ever hiding. I think I just didn’t ask more. Right? Like, it wasn’t like I was ashamed of anything. I just sort of thought like, well, you know, it is what it is. And I didn’t interrogate it that much. But I do feel like for sure, you know, a lot of these spaces that are more mutual aid oriented, or like organizing oriented, they just tend to be more queer. You know, it ends up being folks who just have asked these questions of themselves, too. And so there’s less posturing of like needing to be a certain person. Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I think industry wise, there’s challenges. So like, I’ve made good friends in the professional space. But there’s a lot of things that you get asked to do as a storyteller that really rub me the wrong way of like, well, you guys were saying, which I love, like we want you to be comfortable. And if there’s anything you don’t want to talk about—that wasn’t something they taught me in journalism school, which is disgusting. Like, I think this whole issue of consent or how we interact with people. There’s things that in my professional world have been harder to find, but I have ultimately found communities in that and really felt like, “oh my god, like so grateful that we can interrogate this and have this conversation,” or like talk about how do we make work that looks different. Like right now I’m working on a podcast about the pipeline with a friend who I’ve wanted to collaborate with for ages. And being able to work with people who have really asked themselves like, what am I really saying about this? It’s just beautiful. Like, it’s so much fun. It’s such a different process of making. It’s just cool. 7 �MC: I think it;s interesting that you brought up the fact that it just wasn’t acknowledged. You might have known that about yourself, but there wasn’t that knowledge, I guess? LS: Yeah. 15:42 MC: Or the idea of looking into it? It was just what it was. And I think that goes back to like growing up in the ‘80s, ‘90s, 2000s. Like, do you think that the Internet and being able to look at things and really recognize other viewpoints, do you think that influenced you being able to look at yourself and see what you considered important or valuable? 15:58 LS: Yeah. It just was so different. Like, it’s hard to even articulate, like, I mean, sure. I remember Ellen being on the cover of Time, and that was a big deal. I remember people talking in hushed tones about the fact that there was like a lesbian on TV, you know? Like this is the shit that makes me feel old. Sorry, I’m trying not to do that [to curse]. But it’s like, I think about those moments. And I think about, you know, the struggle for visibility, and for marriage, right? That was a huge, huge fight. I remember, you know, when they projected the rainbow, it’s like, there definitely have been moments where you see things pushing forward, and you see things happening. I was a little young for the AIDS pandemic. But as I’ve gotten older, the gravity of that, and the gravity of the fact that like a lot of the elders that we would have, you know, went through horrific things, and we lost a lot of people. And I think that impact is sinking in more as I get older, about, like, what that is to lose the history and what that is to have…. And also just the stigma that went with it of people having to be even more hushed and like… health, right? Like, just access to be able to be with a partner, you know? And so I think I’ve learned to appreciate that more. Yeah, there’s so much. There’s one anecdote that I actually really feel like is good to share, which is, I remember we had an assembly at one point. I think it was probably a junior in high school at this point. So that would have been like the very early years of the 2000s, like the first four years of the 2000s. And it was basically an inclusivity assembly, right? Like, they wanted to tell stories about like why is racism bad, why is homophobia bad. And show people who were not like the thing that you’re supposed to be around here. And at the end… it was like a traveling group. And at the end, we’re like, does anyone have questions? and there was a kid that stood up. And you know, like a local kid, he had like a big old Confederate belt buckle, like it was the stereotype of like, you know, the folks around here in a certain way, and I didn’t know him particularly well. I knew of him. But he basically said, you know, to the whole auditorium full of kids, like, “y’all know that being gay is a sin, and they’re gonna go to hell. You’re all gonna go to hell.” And, you know, it’s hard to even fathom that playing out now. Like, it’s hard to fathom. He didn’t get reprimanded. There was no sort of… they didn’t handle it well 8 �afterwards, because I don’t even remember what they did. But I remember that moment so specifically, and it was a very unveiled threat of like, you’re not going to be safe here, if I know. Right, and like, a lot of people felt that way. And so I think, it’s really obvious why people didn’t come out like that, if that was the prevalent thing and even you know, like, people using the word “fag.” Like, it was just nothing, you know, like that was just rolling around everywhere at that time. And that was like a really common insult, you know? And like, if you didn’t want to date someone, like I had people say, “oh, what are you, lesbian?” You know, like, just like really wild shit that like people don’t say that stuff now, as far as I know, or they get yeeted, which they should, you know. So anyway, I just think that curve of visibility and the curve of normalcy and like the people that have struggled and stuff like this, right? Just making it be like, “no, it’s always been here, and it’s always been beautiful. And it’s always been magical. Like, you guys need to work on your stuff. Like we’re good over here.” I just… MC: You’ve definitely seen a shift. LS: Absolutely. Yeah. Like in personal but also wider. Yeah, there’s so many parallels for sure. 19:58 MC: Interesting. And you talked about Ellen being on Times [Time] and everything. You talked about seeing [her]. And I know that Time is like this assimilation of heteronormativity. And I know an important thing was same-sex marriage. And talking about that. Do you have any views on that? Like, what are your beliefs with that? 20:17 LS: About being able to marry? 20:19 LS: I mean, I find the institution kind of just outdated and wonky and not for me, but yeah, I think stripping people of rights that they want or like a sacred thing that they want, is disgusting [laughter]. Yeah, I have no patience for it at all [laughter]. Bigotry can die [continued laughter from both]. That can be printed bold anywhere you want. I’m fine with it. 20:46 MC: Do you remember the first you heard of an LGBTQ community? Do you remember your first... first being open to that idea or like when you were first affected by it? 9 �LS: Like knowing gay people? 21:06 LS: Um... you know, it was referred to in a very Southern way, right? Like “Oh, I think they’re a friend,” you know, the way people kind of skirt over things. You know, looking back my... Yeah, like there were people in my life where it was just sort of alluded to that they were queer, but I don’t remember specifically like that moment or having sort of an acknowledgment of it. It was just sort of like, yeah, it was always the allusion to it. It felt very Southern, honestly [chuckles]. It just was like, “yeah.” 21:43 MC: That’s interesting. LS: Yeah. 20:51 MC: You said it felt very Southern. Have you ever experienced going up north [or] maybe you’re somewhere else. Have you had those experiences in other places where you think you see those comparisons still today or like that dichotomy still today, or…? 22:03 LS: What I noticed and what I feel is like I spent a lot of time in the Southwest, and in Tucson in particular, in Arizona doing work on border issues and stuff related to that, and the community there is pretty radical and there’s like a lot of queer folks and being in that space and talking to people about their experiences of growing up. You know, some of my better friends have shared what it was like for them and a lot of them grew up in the Northeast and for some reason there’s like this strong relationship between those places. Or the Northwest, like Portland area. But hearing them talk about how—you know, like my experience with that assembly, like they gasped, they’re like, “you know, where I grew up like it was just normal like everybody you know could do what they wanted.” And just seeing actually that there is a layer of privilege in being able to just be yourself from the jump, right? And like, that struggle of feeling sort of mismatched and not knowing what to do with it, the effort it takes to keep, keep going [laughter]. I think that’s like one of the bigger things I felt from people that aren’t Southern. And I would actually say it feels like geography, because I have a lot of friends who are from different areas and it’s just that was not their experience, and there’s still a lot of my friends who are Southern, who are like closer in my age range, who just came out later. You know, it just feels like it hit ‘pause’ for a lot of us. There may be a point when you have to address it or maybe you won’t, and that’s okay, too. We all do what we need to do, but it just does feel like something about Southern culture asks you to like be 10 �pleasant about it and just keep it moving until it becomes insufferable or weird enough for you that you’re like, something is wrong. Like this can’t be. So I don’t know. I don’t know how other people would describe it, but it feels Southern to me. 24:04 MC: Interesting, And you talked about feeling the need to push through it and get through it and try to understand everything. Feeling those boundaries. Do you think… did that affect how you view things today? Or do you think it affects your relationships today? Like has it pushed you to become more forward thinking and move through those boundaries today as well? 24:24 LS: Yeah. You know, it’s funny. I mentioned earlier my ADHD brain. I feel like the comfort that I;’ve had to find in myself to be openly queer, especially around here, has helped me ask other questions about ways that I have been like, “what’s up with this?” You know, and like be gentler with myself and realize my differences aren’t negatives, right; they’re things that are going to lead me to like more things that are gonna see me and I’m gonna see, like it’s definitely felt like a really... I don’t know, like this extra sort of boost of being able to move in a way that feels like I have alignment in like a lot of different ways that was missing, and I don’t even know it. Like it’s just this kind of like, what is this about? Why does this feel weird? And I feel like, yeah, I attribute my queerness to a lot of that asking good questions, and I’ve always been that way. I’ve always been really curious. Just kind of insatiable. But I do think that in a certain way, it’s made me gentler, it’s made me less like [pounds fist into palm of other hand] “ahhh, I’m going to do it,” and more like this can be really nice if I just like let this roll through and see what it wants to be. 25:41 MC: Interesting. LS: Yeah. 25:43 MC: So, I talked a little bit about growing up during that era. And the idea of the politics of this equality. Were there any times where you were seeing... maybe like in Roanoke specifically, or in Blacksburg, were there any events? Like did you hear of the pride festivals, the first Pride festival being in Roanoke? 26:02 11 �LS: Pride was sort of like toute as a hedonistic thing that people did in other places, like it was like just taboo. Like a lot of queer spaces felt just kind of taboo and yeah, like almost you’d be stuck with it, like the kids that were open about their sexuality or about their identities really took heat, really took heat, and like I can’t imagine the courage, you know, like, I think about being able to sit down with them sometimes and just be like, “I want to hear more about like what your experience was of this,” and like, “how did people treat you and what was that like?” Because I saw the adjacent sort of thing and yeah, I don’t know. I think there was just a very open sort of hostility towards anything that even alluded to someone being queer. It just wasn’t hidden. People were not tolerant, you know? Or it was a joke. It was a gag. And like, you were outside. It became deviant very quickly, so... 27:11 MC: That’s interesting. 27:12 LS: Yeah. 27:13 MC: Especially because Blacksburg is not that far away from Roanoke... 27:16 LS: No, you would... 27:17 MC: Where these changes were happening. So you would think that it wasn’t... 27:20 LS: And [Virginia] Tech, right? Like Blacksburg is a bubble in that way of all these like forward… you know, they like to think of themselves as forward-minded folks, but it just was pretty stuck. Like it really was a different time. 27:30 MC: But definitely goes back to the geography as well that you were talking about before. Yeah, so, that’s super interesting. Another event that I know we have talked about a little bit but I know that was super important in some people’s lives is the Backstreet Cafe shooting… the gay bar in Roanoke in 2000. Did you hear of that at all, or was it the same situation? 27:47 12 �LS: Vaguely. Vaguely, and I think like it more like “oh, a gay bar got shot.” Like, people held it really horribly, like it wasn’t acknowledged as like the horrific thing that it was. And actually, I’ve learned much more about it since then when I was here, which also says everything right? And why these kinds of projects matter because so much history gets erased because of people’s desire to make to make it seem like it didn’t happen, or to make it seem like it didn’t matter, right? It’s part of why I do what I do. Well, not part of. It’s a big part of why I do what I do, because I know that it’s easy for people to be like, well, if it’s not documented, it didn’t happen. And I’m like, well, that’s not happening anymore. So… 28:32 MC: Yeah, wanting to push further wanting to… 28:36 LS: For sure! We were here. You know, we’ve been here. Like that kind of thing. This was deeply influential; it’s deeply tied to creating community safety for people and for acknowledging like what it is to be yourself and especially in a rural place. Yeah. 28:53 MC: Have you had any interactions with youth in the area? Like have you seen maybe where you grew up or in middle school, in high school? I know you talked about how it’s kind of taboo to even talk about it, but do you know anything about the area today that you think has changed? How they come out, maybe as LGBTQ or queer? I don’t know if you do, but… 29:13 LS: Yeah, I think I have people in my life who are younger and who are going through school or have gone through school and it seems much better from what they’ve told me. I think even in the last ten years right, like there’s been a big shift. I think there’s just like a lot of, for whatever reason, like people being able to communicate and reach out, like having more accessibility to places outside of here. It’s given people like a literal lifeline in a lot of moments where they get to see themselves reflected back and not be afraid of it and realize like it’s a good thing. Like it’s a special thing. So I do feel like culturally like there has been a shift even in Blacksburg and like in this area. I mean I’m in Floyd now. So that’s a different bucket, but [laughter] there’s beautiful things happening everywhere else. People are making spaces that are safe and are like, you know, the magic of queerness and they’re happening all over. 30:16 13 �MC: And then you talk about how you’ve seen these. That’s super important. Is there anything that you’ve seen that you think still needs to be talked about or worked on, especially for people who are part of the queer community or just in general? 30:28 LS: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is a tough area still I think to be visibly queer. I think you definitely get, or I feel it, [on] days when I’m presenting more masc or something, like folks will treat me really differently if I go into the gas station, you know. It’s like subtle things. And I’m just like… It’s a lot about presentation. And I think also just like [sighs] the way the acceptability of queerness around here, there’s a pretty narrow margin of what people want. They do like, “love the person, not the sin,” or whatever they said, it’s like really offensive crap. So yeah, like I think the morality that gets assigned to it is gross and very tied to how the dogma of religion around here really dictates a lot of like social expectations. So it’s like if you’re a godparent or hardworking person you couldn’t possibly also be gay, you know? And just really like pushing back against that and like, the visibility is huge for that, right? Like if you know someone who you see living a life that you admire, and you respect and they’re also openly queer, it’s gonna make you question things like most people, not everyone, but like stuff like that, I think is like really important. And, you know, I know that a lot of people are doing work to support queer youth and make sure there are resources because around here, it still means you could get kicked out or you know, there’s a lot of folks who they can’t risk being openly queer, you know, especially in their homes growing up. So, it’s like a requirement to leave, and a lot of people who leave because being queer here is still just too hard. And they can’t find the kind of community that’s gonna let them thrive, you know? So that feel sad because it’s like not only are people having to leave a place they probably love in certain ways, but also it means the folks who are working, who are stuck in these fear-minded ways of being, it’s really hard to know how to address it or to like hold the tension of all that like, no one wants to be the person that gets abused because they’re trying to be themselves. It’s nuts. Totally nuts. Yeah, I don’t know. 33:05 MC: Is there an overarching message that you guess you wish you knew? And that you wish that other people could know now? Like, is there something that you think is definitely been something you’d want others to know? 33:16 LS: [hums in understanding] It’s a great question. It’s a big question. Yeah, there’s so many things. I feel like my queenress has been a gift to like trust myself the most I ever have. Because the more I trusted it, the better my life has gotten. And I think that’s just incredible that there could be something... like when you welcome yourself. I feel like it’s been a 14 �process not just like, you know, metaphorically. I’m sorry to do this; I’m such a nerd. But both physically and metaphorically like a coming home to myself, right? It’s like, the more I do the more I’m here like this has always been here. I would love for a kid who’s struggling in a place like I grew up, who feels unseen to know that like whatever is in them is the right thing. Like whatever is there is the truth and whatever is there is special and like deserves a safe place. And if it’s not where you are, then go somewhere. You know what I mean? Like if you can go like it’s... there’s no wrong way to do it and there’s no wrong thing. As long as you know that you’re special in that way. 34:35 MC: The idea of self-recognition and not pushing things away. 34:38 LS: Yeah. And just like trust trusting that and trusting like every feeling that comes through you and every desire that you have and every sort of like piece about you that you question. There’s something important there. There’s like really something behind that and there’s like a way to be that lets it all kind of like, it’ll shake out, you know, just like keep trusting it. 35:03 MC: Interesting. So you talked a little bit about people that influenced your work. Do you think that there are any pieces that have really stuck out to you in general. It doesn’t have to be related to queerness or anything like that, but is there any aspect of your work that you think has really stuck with you the most? I know that’s a hard question. Big question [laughter]. 35:34 LS: It’s funny. Not everyone goes to school like I did for it, and I think it was good and bad in certain ways. For a time, I thought I wanted to be in gallery spaces and maybe academia. You know, I just wasn’t quite sure where I wanted to go with it. But I think it is also tied into that. Like, if you’re making work that you feel invigorated by, it’s going to be good work. But there’s gonna be plenty of opportunities to make terrible work [laughter], and people will want to pay you a lot for it and like just being discerning about what lets you keep going longer term. I don’t know. Everyone has different goals for like why they make things. I hold my work as like an artistic practice. And I think that like, some would argue in a journalistic space especially that’s like not kosher, you know, it’s not a cool thing to do. But it’s like, well, I think for me, like it lets me make things that I feel like offer stuff. Whereas if I’m just showing up for an assignment, it just feels really different. So, I don’t know. I mean, I guess that’s a very roundabout way of just saying like, there’s a lot of ways I think that work and just generally like society asks you to do something because they think it’s the right thing to 15 �do. And it’s okay to do those things if you want, but also like there’s a lot of other cool things that you can make happen and can be really fulfilling and you’ll find other people that want that too. So yeah. 37:15 MC: This is kind of going backwards, but we talked a little bit about your childhood. I know we talk about how high school is the biggest time of you like accepting yourself and realizing yourself. Were there any points in that time that you think you were like, “oh, well, this makes so much more sense [now].” Or do you think you had to wait till later on in order to realize kind of what was the truth underlying? 37:37 LS: Related to queerness or just generally? 37.40 MC: Generally. Whatever. Or queerness. 37:42 LS: High school is not that for me. There’s a lot of different reasons why high school was not that for me. College was not that for me. I feel like it took probably until my MA [Masters] or like being in London that I really found my stride. I attribute that to a lot of different things. My queerness actually came after London, like my queerness wasn’t really until, I don’t know, like six or seven years ago. So, it really was like once I started, you know, like being able to see myself in London. it was like after that, you know, I came back home and I was like who am I now, here? And I think that really catalyzed a lot of me being in different spaces, like we’ve been talking about, and finding communities that felt better and then looking around and being like, “wow, this is really different than what I used to want to do and uh, hmm, you know, like I’m just a strong ally!” Kind of like, huh! You know, like, there’s some stuff to ask about this. Or, you know, my desires that I’ve always had, maybe they’re just not like thoughts, right? Like maybe I want this for myself? And maybe there’s a lot of stuff that I’ve been accepting that like could be a lot better. So yeah, I think like high school just it feels I did the thing that was expected of me in a lot of ways, and I did it well and so no one asked questions, and I didn’t. 39:19 MC: Do you think you strive to push past that? What’s expected now? Do you think that that was a major influence on what you do today? 39:27 16 �LS: Well, I referenced it before, but I like surprising people. You know, I’m a redneck. I grew up around here. Like, I have a truck, and I like getting dirty and you know, all these things that people make fun of and that are like, you know, these classist token things that they don’t like. You know, I’m like, that’s me. That’s like deeply in me, you know? Like, these are the things that taught me how to respect nature and taught me how to be here and taught me how to feel capable in my body, right? Like, it’s like stuff that I’m really grateful I had as complicated as it is coming from here. I like when I challenge on either side. Like what am I allowed to be here? You know, like, so, okay. So you think I’m this, but like, we’re all more than you think. All of us and I love that. I get such a kick out of it every time. 40:14 MC: Interesting. 40:15 LS: Yeah. 40:16 MC: Is there anything else that you wish that you could speak on? Or is anything else you want to talk about? 40:25 LS: I feel curious. I want to ask y’all questions, but I know that’s not the role here [laughter]. 40:28 MC: That’s alright. 40:31 LS: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I do feel like there’s a lot of cool things happening here. Like there is a moment of sort of like energy and desire for people and they’re finding ways to like make really cool queer spaces that are intentionally queer. And to me that feels like a really cool thing to know about this moment here because it looks all sorts of different ways, right? Like some of it is just, you know, we’re gonna work the land together, and some of it’s like we’re gonna build community together and some of it’s like working to like topple the baddies together like there’s just a lot of cool pieces. But it feels like a moment to me that even a few years ago wasn’t as possible. And I don’t know if that reflects my own personal relationships that I built here, probably? Or a wider thing. But I get the sense that it’s both, right? Like both/and. But I do… I feel like this is really special moment and I don’t think just here in rural Virginia but I think widely like the Southern queer movement feels really vital 17 �right now, and like for all the ways that the repression of the last administration and stuff was happening, I feel like, I don’t know, it lit this fire for people that I see actually like bearing fruit right now. You know, like it takes a while, it takes a minute. And like trying stuff out is hard and like there’s like quote-unquote ‘failures,’ right? Or there’s things that are sad and like dealing with all that and yeah, it feels like a cool moment. And I think that’s fun to share. Like, I don’t like this just the sad version of rural life. I think there’s a lot of really cool special uniquely rural queer stories that I feel excited to try to share, and that I’m curious to hear. I want those around me, and I want to be making them too. 42:33 MC: Are there any spaces around here that you feel like you geared towards, like I know we talked about sometimes the Park [nightclub] in Roanoke, but there’s so many other spaces. Are there any that you feel have really helped you? Or you [have] geared towards the most, or go to the most? 42:47 LS: Yeah, you know, I have friends who are farmers and have really made beautiful spaces that are mostly queer. And like, I think back to eight-year-old me, right? Like what would she have done if she got to go visit a farm like that? Like, it was a lot of my nostalgia but like part of the reason why I chose Floyd during the pandemic is like, I have really good memories of folks who I saw making art, women in particular, making art... and making a life that I was like, “wow, you can do that?” And I feel like that around here. I feel like people are doing that here in a way where they’re not hiding so much, like it’s not like this hush hush thing. It’s like, you know, there was an openly queer flower farm duo. You know? 43:38 MC: Interesting. LS: That like grew their business through, not just in spite of, but in many ways because of [their queerness]. You could have blown me over literally, like I just was like, “whoa, like what? You know, like there are so many special ways that I see people doing stuff and in different places. You know, I’m pretty careful. And also I’m not much of a bar person. So, I think my places where I go look different, but yeah, I think like there’s a lot of really cool stuff happening and I feel like it’s much easier to find it, and to be connected to it through each other too. 44:16 18 �MC: It’s nice to see that it’s pushing past like just what you would see. It’s like moving towards out of these not in the box spaces, like looking into nature and like the farm, but that’s really interesting to hear from someone else. 44:29 LS: Mm-hmm, yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think that’s what I want. I want my work to feel like that. So there’s also Julie Rae Powers. They are from Virginia, and are working on a really cool project about queer Appalachian photographers. And projects like “Looking at Appalachia,” done by Roger May. There have been like a handful of things where people are very intentionally including queer stories and wanting to lift them up. And to me, like, it’s not a physical space, but if there’s kids getting to see this or even adults like myself, I do think there’s like a retroactive sort of calming that happens or like, you know, like this is really encouraging to see and exciting. So yeah, I look at that like not just as like physical spaces, but also other places where people are just doing cool things. 45:29 MC: I don’t believe I have any other questions, but thank you so much for sharing all that you did. Super eye opening just for us as well. So yeah, I really appreciate it. 45:40 LS: Yeah. No problem, I’m happy to be here. Part II 00:00 MC: So I know that some people, like part of coming out and being a part of the queer community, is changing your name. I know that L isn’t very far from your original name. Do you think that had an impact? Like, was that something that you thought about? 00:13 LS: Ultimately, again, it was like kind of on the edge of my coming out, but it was something that I did actually in a professional way, because the gendering of my name bothered me and the way people regarded me and emails bothered me, and on social media bothered me. And so I think my hope was that if I just used an initial, they wouldn’t be able to make an assumption. Like they might guess, you know. L is a softer… like, I don’t know [laughter]. People might have ideas about L, but like, I’m like, whatever. And also just the sound of, it felt sturdy to me. Like I don’t dislike my name, but L to me was like a way of like, I think, 19 �matching more of how I felt or how I feel. And yeah, I don’t know. It feels sweet to me. It feels like a special thing that I’m happy with. 01:02 MC: Have you seen changes in the professional sense? Do you think people have… 01:06 LS: Maybe moderately, maybe so. But I also think it’s funny, it’s like chicken and egg kind of thing. Of like, am I talking different now that I feel better about this? Or am I getting more assertive because I am feeling my own worth more? Like, am I apologizing less and thanking people more? 01:25 MC: That’s important too. It’s like seeing the change in yourself. 01:28 LS: Right. 01:28 MC: As well as how other people [view you]… 01:30 LS: Yeah. And a lot of it’s gendered, and a lot of professional spaces are super gendered in that way of being the thoughtful femme person who is like anticipating everything and being gracious all the time. Like, I still feel like I’m getting lessons on that of like stripping away what has been offered as like the only possibility. Right? And being like, actually, you know what, like cool thing about queerness is you get to do what you want and you get to like be creative. Like just the ingenuity of queerness is so cool to me. Like always making something from what is supposed to not be possible. I just love that. And I think that it shows up in small and big ways. And like, my name is like a very [makes small sound] little moment. 02:14 MC: It’s a small thing, but it changes a lot. And do you think people from your past that maybe used to know you not as L do you think they have gone along with it? Or do you think they’re kind of more hesitant to call you…? 02:26 LS: You know, I don’t… 20 �02:27 MC: Or has it not made a difference? 02:29 LS: I appreciate the nostalgia of like other names. Like I have people… like my family called me Lo growing up. Which is funny because my dad started, he’d say “hi, Lo.” So, it was like a corny thing. But now like half my family calls me Lo, and it feels right. But it also has more of like the same feeling as L and it’s funny to me because like that was my moniker most often from the people that I loved growing up. So, it feels good to be called L. But also like, it’s not like across the board. I have different relationships and different things. So, I think it felt like a trying on, and in certain ways it feels like even that fluidity matches my queerness. Right? Because like I use the term ‘queer,’ like I choose to use the term queer very intentionally. I feel like, you know, for some people having something more specific feels good, but for me it feels entirely stifling all the time. And so, like that room to keep discovering and to keep, I guess, challenging other people’s perception of me because of a word is like very important to me and has been another cool part of like welcoming in my queerness. 03:35 MC: Yeah. That’s interesting too, cause it’s a connection from your past, like you were talking about. That’s something that you may not have even realized that you enjoyed or liked being called. But now you can look back on it and have a totally different outlook on it. Which I think is cool. I know that you talked a little bit about coming out as an adult rather than like younger. Do you think that has shaped who you are today, or that has had like major differences? 03:57 LS: Yeah. I think for sure, you know, like what I shared with you guys earlier. I think it’s made me like much more confident in my queerness in a certain way of like, I’m not looking for other people’s approval of my kind of queerness or who I am. Because of the journey that I’ve already been on, you know, like what I said before, like there’s literally nothing anyone could do to take it away from me. Like it’s so important and it’s so special to me that there’s no outside sort of like option of like what needs to be a certain way that could intimidate like how I wanna hold things for myself. Which I feel so grateful for because there are a lot of intense sort of expectations that I see play out in queer spaces. And I’m just, it’s exhausting. And I’m like [sighs]… for all the ways that I feel like I’ve been through the ringer about it, I also feel like, oh, I feel so grateful to be in this moment and to feel so grounded and who I am in that way that like if someone has a distaste 21 �for the way I’m queer, I don’t care. I just don’t care. And actually what it lets me do is hope for them that they’re able to find softness for themselves or like be in relationships that let them be curious about like, why does that need to be so rigid, right? Like freedom is the other side of the stuff that we think we have to have. And so like, I want that to be who I am to other people too. Like not just for myself, but yeah. 05:32 MC: Nice. That’s important. 05:33 LS: Yeah. 05:34 MC: Do you think that there was a time where you were like, oh, did you have a first crush where it was like a realization moment? I think that’s so funny cause like everyone thinks about their first kiss or their first crush and it’s like totally different sometimes from… 05:48 LS: Yeah. I think for a long time it was like, I would think I really admired people. I’d be like, oh, they’re so cool. And I’m like, no, you were into them. Like you definitely had crushes on them. But I feel like my youngest crush, I don’t know. I feel like when I saw Angelina Jolie in Lara Croft, I was like, “holy crap, what a babe!” And like in a really funny way, right? Where I was just sort of like the androgyny of it and I thought I just thought she was cool and powerful, but like eventually I started being like, yeah, she’s like really hot, like objectively beautiful. Like I’d say stuff like that. And like now I’m just like, “no, this is hot.” So I just think that like, you know, there’s plenty of moments looking back where, and it’s easier to like lust for someone who is like totally unattainable and like far away. And somehow, I don’t know, like I just deposited this into this funny thing and I wasn’t like quiet about it, but I also, I mean, this is funny. So, it was like I was in high school in the era where Katy Perry put out that awful song, “I kissed a girl and I liked it.” And so there was a lot of like party moments where people would get wasted, like girls would get wasted and make out with each other. And I always just thought, like, that’s not funny. Like I had this like pit in my stomach about it. Like my friends would do it and I’d be like, that doesn’t seem like a joke to me. And actually my other best friend who is now married with a wife and two kids and is super happy, we both had that conversation together and we’re like, this doesn’t seem cool to me. Does this seem cool to you? And we were like, no, it seems really weird. Like, it seems really intense. And so, like again, it’s like, I look back and I’m like, “wow, we’re like super queer.” But like, you know, other people were like making out on 22 �tables cause it was like hot for the guys. And for me it was just like, that’s so gnarly. That’s disgusting. And like, the objectification and the gaze. Right? Like even that thing of like being, being femme with another femme, like there’s still such hang ups about it, you know? So I think about that kind of stuff and I’m just like [laughter], I’m just glad to be on this side of it. Like whew. So yeah. I don’t know. Definitely a lot of crushes [laughter]. 08:03 MC: Do you think there’s one thing that you see in your relationships today that it’s like, this is what I learned the most and this is what I think that it’s important? Like are there certain conversations that you feel like you want to have with other people? It doesn’t have to be like queerness related, but it’s like, this is something that is important to me that I’ve learned throughout the way. 08:27 LS: I think that fluidity feels really good to me and the more I find it like in a lot of different ways, not just with my queerness, I feel like all my safest and I would use that word ‘safest.’ Most secure relationships have movement for like how hard things can be and then also how special they can be. Right? Like there’s a flow and there’s like room to ask good questions and there’s room to hear things that are hard to hear because like we trust each other. And I love that. I think that’s really cool. And it’s really unique. It’s really hard to come by. And I think like, you know, when you find places where you’re able to do that and able to do that in the company of someone who you can like laugh with or you can grow with, like all of those people are queer in my life now. Like that’s just the reality of it because I do think there’s like so much more of a need to interrogate yourself when you’re queer. Like you’re given all these messages about like what it means and like you have to just ask more questions. And so, I feel like there’s just like, there’s a richness in it. Right? And like being able to move through all that stuff with people, like it’s just, it feels wonderful to me. Yeah. 09:43 MC: Good. You talked a little bit about self-validation, and do you think it’s less or more important now to you? Like, do you look for validation in others or is it more important to you see validation yourself or have self-validation? 09:56 LS: Yeah. It’s funny. So, part of what I’m trying to do with my storytelling here specifically in Appalachia is about that. It’s about like this question of do we need to make things that like reach a large audience or can we make things that are specifically for people in a way that allow them to see themselves reflected back? Right? So like, even if it’s just like stories within a community reflected back to that community. It’s like if you’re working really hard 23 �at something and no one ever acknowledges it, that’s exhausting. And I think there’s like something really wonderful in particular about being able to sit down with someone and learn about them. And celebrate that with them. And I do think that comes from like the growth that’s happened as I’ve been able to like see myself and see how special I am and the ways that I thought were making my life harder maybe or like less acceptable. Right? Like as I became more comfortable, it was like this has been such a gift for me. Like if there’s any way that I can be making spaces and storytelling like that do this for other people, is there anything more cool than that? Like, I’m not sure there is for me, you know. Like we all have our thing, but yeah. I definitely think that’s been like deeply influential, but again, it spreads like in a good way, you know? People feel empowered and then they wanna go and keep doing the thing that made them feel empowered. So, it’s just contagious in a really cool way. 11:40 MC: So, do you think that like the large scale validation is not as much important as small scale? Like you were saying, like seeing, even in your work, do you think that the things you do on a smaller area are more important than, like, do you see more difference there than you would in a large-scale project? 11:57 LS: Well, I don’t know. I mean, I think back to that thing of like Ellen on a cover, right? It’s like sometimes you need the boot through the door, just make people uncomfortable and be like, deal with it. Cause like, you know, someone was talking, I didn’t even know this happened, but there was like this total kerfuffle about like the Gillette commercial, where they were like the #MeToo moment. Did you hear about this? I didn’t know this happened either until three days ago, so but apparently they just made a commercial about like what it is to like raise strong men—or like, gender commercials are so weird—but like people died, people went absolutely ape. They were just so infuriated that Gillette would take a stance on the #MeToo movement and talk about like men being vulnerable or men, you know, this and that, da da da da da. And now I’m like, if that commercial got made now people wouldn’t bat an eye, you know. They would just be like, okay, like the conversation continues. And I think about stuff like that, where it’s like, people get really inflamed because they see the rigidity of their life slipping away and the places they’re afforded power becoming less so. Right? And so they’re clinging, but I think there’s like important moments of just being like, “Nope, we’re done here.” That then can be constantly augmented. I mean, ultimately, I do think that like our interpersonal relationships are the, I don’t know, like the kismet of it. But I also think that 24 �probably that cover or like these things that like kick the door open, come from that, is my guess. 13:29 MC: Yeah. I think that’s important. Like you need those big, almost, political or social boosts in order to get the small things rolling and even like spark conversations yourself. So, I think that’s really interesting that you said that as well. 13:41 LS: Yeah. It feels very much like a conversation in a good way. Yeah. 13:54 MC: [speaking to other student in the room] We wrapped up before. So, I don’t think we have to… [END] 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with L Saunders Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with L Saunders Interviewer: Madelyne Culkin Interviewee: L Saunders Date: February 27, 2022 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 59:14 (in two parts: 45:57 and 13:17) Transcription prepared by: Andrew Austin, Mel Staton, Madelyne Culkin, and Barney Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 27 February 2022 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource L Saunders, Madelyne Culkin, Andrew Austin, Mel Staton, and Barney Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SaundersL https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5969/Liza.MP3 fa9e51245bbeafc2dafbcff8fe400858 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5969/Liza.1.pdf f9e308f954dda31d3a3a8fdad6e5e63f PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Liza February 25, 2022 Interviewers: Ashley Werner (Isabella Moritz also present) Interviewee: Liza Date: February 25, 2022 Location: Roanoke College Fintel Library, 221 College Ln. Salem, Virginia Transcript prepared by: Baillee Heatwole, Da’Vaun Lee, Isabella Moritz, Ashley Werner, Reagan Westphal Total: 01:09:25 00:25 = childhood, growing up in Maysville, Kentucky (1990s and 2000s); how Liza came to start their flower farm in Floyd County, Virginia; Liza’s graduate and post-graduate education and experiences (mid- to late-2010s) 06:30 = Liza’s background in agriculture 09:01 = comparing rural Kentucky to rural Virginia 11:13 = Building community on Liza’s farm, and in Floyd County 15:02= debating gay rights in high school (mid-2000s) 17:24 = navigating queer spaces as a bisexual non-binary person; experiences as a cishet ally in college at Virginia Tech (c. 2008-2012); their coming out process in Lynchburg (2018-2019) 24:01 = relationship with the word ‘queer’ 25:53 = the farm as a queer space 27:54 = Liza’s relationship to Roanoke and other cities 30:25 = passing as a straight, cis person 32:36 = exhaustion holding space and repeatedly having to come out; relationship with parents 37:13 = Alok Vaid-Menon and the influence of social media (late 2010s); #queerfarmers community 41:10 = being queer in Trump Country; queer dating in rural areas and assumptions of straightness 44:09 = coming out to neighbors 48:43 = relationship with social media; marketing the farm 52:01 = making the farm a safe space 57:20 = colonialism and Tutelo rights to the land; exploring land-back program 1:01:15 = the importance of communication, especially on the farm 1:06:21 = practicing accountability 1 �[00:01] Ashley: Okay, this is Ashley Werner with Liza in Fintel Library. It is February 25th, 2022. … And, so yeah, I guess we’ll just start with just introducing yourself and start from the beginning of where you grew up, your childhood. [00:25] Liza: Okay. So, my name’s Liza. I don’t have a pronoun preference. I grew up in Kentucky, in a small town. My mom is a doctor and my dad ran a horseback riding resort. So, I grew up kinda like in a small town but also out in the mountains where the resort was, and we had thirty horses. So, I grew up like baling hay, and shoveling stalls, and playing in the creek, and all that rural mountain stuff. My mom is from Virginia, she’s from Floyd County, where I live. And she grew up on the property that I live on right now. She left Floyd County when she was seventeen and never moved back. Her parents died when she was in her early twenties, and she inherited some land that she never sold. Held onto it, and so even though she never went back, she held onto it for… forty years, and then about ten years ago I started becoming really interested in this land and really wanted to move there. But... so, anyways, yeah I grew up in a small town in like a middle class, upper-middle class family since my mom was a doctor. And yeah, it was a very interesting mix of financial security and then living out on the farm and having this farm that didn’t really make any money. So, it’s an interesting blend of things. But, yeah, so I graduated from high school and came to Virginia Tech, and studied Mathematics and got a minor in Green Engineering. But I became really interested in the food system and really wanted to learn more about food production and specifically how people grew their own food, like sort of subsistence gardening and farming and how that played into food security. Specifically interested in rural areas. So, when I graduated—I graduated high school in 2008, and college in 2012—then I took an AmeriCorps position and I basically abandoned mathematics [laughter]. And took an AmeriCorps position in West Virginia doing school gardening projects. So I did that for a while, for a year, and it was really interesting. I learned a lot. And then I got another AmeriCorps job out in Washington State, so I moved out there to Olympia and worked for a year running their home gardening project so that’s what we built gardens for people with low incomes for free and gave them everything that they should need to have a successful gardening season, including free classes, and seeds, and starts and stuff, and that was amazing and I loved that job so much that I came back to Virginia Tech [giggles]. I really felt like Virginia was home, and [I] went to grad school and studied home gardening and food security in rural Appalachia. And so, I got my Masters [degree] in horticulture, but did kinda more of a sociology project rather than a science project. And then when I graduated, I really wanted to start a farm. Oh, I also did an internship during the summer, the grad school summer, cause grad school is two years. So, in the middle I did an internship with a local farm because I wanted to learn more about larger scale gardening, but still small but 2 �like larger than gardening. So I wanted to learn about small-scale farming, and they just happen to be a flower farm, even though I didn’t really care about flowers, so I took that internship and fell in love with flower farming. And so, when I graduated from grad school I was like, “Oh my god. I really want to start my own farm, but I have no money, and so I got to figure this out.” So I took a job with Cooperative Extension doing nutrition programming through the SNAP Ed program. Which I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of SNAP, but SNAP is Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Programs, like food stamps. It’s the same thing as food stamps, but it’s the new word, new title for it. So, part of the SNAP budget from the USDA Farm Bill is SNAP education. So, I worked for Virginia SNAP Ed doing education programming. So I did that for a couple of years and saved up money and didn’t want to continue doing it, so I quit and went back to the flower farm and worked there for a year and then, like, somehow got the resources—like as in community resources that I needed—to finally move to Floyd and start the farm that I’m farming now. But yeah, that was a pretty substantial background chunk of information [Ashley and Liza laugh]. [06:19] Ashley: Wow, you’ve done a lot with your life. [06:22] Liza: Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty cool [laughter]. [06:25] Ashley: I know. I was just wondering about how it was going from being around horses all your childhood to flower farming? [06:38] Liza: I’m really glad I have a background in agriculture. Like I’m really, really, really thankful for it. I don’t really like it when I’m… I mean I was never a big horse person, my mom was a big horse person. I liked horses okay. My dad liked horses okay, but we really started the farm because my mom loved horses. She still has two horses. My parents are separated so my dad is, he’s like totally abandoned horses, he hates them now [laughter]. Doesn’t want to deal with them anymore ever again. He won't even get another dog. He’s over it, taking care of animals. But I liked being outside. And that was the biggest thing. We didn’t really grow anything. We grew alfalfa fields, which we bailed for the horses, and, you know, it was an agritourism farm, so it was very different, you know people were coming to the place. We were designing the farm so that people would come there. So, it was like a lot of people in and out, and then we did a corn maze one year and then we grew some pumpkins one year. But pretty much the only growing of plants that I did growing up was with my mom; she grew a couple of tomatoes and flowers and stuff. [08:03] Liza: So going from like—it was like, I grew up being outside, but I never really cultivated plants until my senior year in college when I had my first garden. And then it’s just, like, my gardens ended up getting bigger and bigger and bigger and now I cultivate half an acre in flowers. So it’s very different, but my background with horses, it’s really helpful. Especially 3 �since I do want to get animals someday and I have lived with animals and helped steward animals and slaughter them and stuff for food, so… not when I was a kid, when I was an adult. But, yeah, so it’s different but helpful. [08:52] Ashley: How different has it been coming from rural Kentucky to rural Virginia? [09:01] Liza: Well, the town I grew up in Kentucky… It’s interesting. It’s like it’s rural but it’s still a town. I think there’s like ten thousand people, maybe? And I grew up in the county seat. You know, Maysville is this small town, and we had a Walmart [laughter] so like we were the biggest town around cause we had a Walmart. And then we get a super Walmart, and so now everybody from all over is coming to Maysville now. Which is really a funny way of thinking about the size of the town. But… rural, where I live now [in Virginia] is so much more rural. It’s more like, cause the town I grew up in, in Kentucky, the town with the super Walmart, I lived there. That was where I went to school. That was home base with the hospital that my mom worked at. But the farm where we grew up, the horse farm was like forty minutes away, in the mountains, like deep in the mountains. And so that was more like where I am living now, where you had to drive. Except, maybe I’m living in even more of a rural area [now], because to the nearest [town], Floyd is thirty minutes from where I live. Stewart, Virginia is thirty minutes from where I live. Hillsville is thirty minutes. And the town that I live in [Meadows of Dan] is ten minutes away and we have two gas stations and a restaurant, like a café. We did get a coffee shop though, like just recently. So, it’s like… it’s different in that, you know, I used to walk to the local YMCA, but then when we were at the farm you didn’t go anywhere because there was nothing around, you were just stuck there. And you ate hotdogs and watched whatever VHS TV show was available if you didn’t want to play outside. [11:08] Ashley: Would you say there’s a social difference at all? [11:13] Liza: Yeah, for sure! It’s interesting, so like where I live, my current living situation, so I really believe in leveraging privileges. Right, so the privileges I have are my whiteness and financial privileges, land, inheriting land is like the biggest privilege. So, I’m currently leveraging my land privilege by engaging in land sharing, so I share the land with a couple other people, including two other farmers. So... and that was my biggest community. The social life community was like the biggest thing that was making me not move there for ten years, or seven years, or however many years I was interested in moving there. But nobody was going with me because I’m single, I don’t have a partner. My mom wasn’t going to move there, none of my family was going to move there. There was no house on the property, just some rundown barns and no neighbors. Since then, somebody’s moved into the house my mom grew up in and it’s a family there and they’re real close. And then there’s another woman who built a house up on the hill since I became interested and I’m really close friends with her. So, then I had a friend who was 4 �interested in moving to the farm with me, so we moved there together in 2020, and like we only had each other really and then the one neighbor we were kinda getting to know. And then last year I had a friend move out, because they needed a place to live for the summer. And then I met these two farmers on Instagram, this couple that were looking for a forever home and they were interested in Virginia. And we met. They came to the farm twice and we talked a bunch, and they moved out there in August and they’re building a farm out there. So, there’s a community which is really incredible. It felt really easy for me to integrate myself into the… There’s a huge community across the county of young farmer people, which is amazing. And so we have gatherings on the farm, and I have a ton of friends up. I have friends in Roanoke and Blacksburg and they come visit me all the time. So, it’s interesting. I live in the middle of nowhere, but I actually have to… kinda tell people not to come for a couple of weeks, because I’m tired of talking to people and seeing them, which is pretty odd. Except for in the winter time, nobody wants to come out in the winter. But, growing up in Maysville, I had a ton of friends because of school. I went to school, and then like out at the farm it was just me and my brother, and then any kids who were camping at the campground. Maybe, but even then it’s like people were there for two days or something. So it’s like community for me growing up was like my brother was my best friend. We always had each other, and then, yeah, probably like a typical community in my hometown. So, yeah. [14:50] Ashley: One question that now we’ll get into the queer stuff. [14:54] Liza: Sure! [14:55] Ashley: What was your first introduction to LGBTQ? Just the idea of that. [15:02] Liza: hmm… Yeah, I don’t know, let’s see… I remember… I remember using the word ‘gay’ but not really knowing what it meant, right? It meant like you were making fun of something when you used the word? I’m older, right? So, it was like…. people didn’t get corrected on it, right? But I remember in… I feel like it was like when I was in high school. Like I’m sure that when you were in high school you did debates? Like in your history class or your political science class or whatever? We did debates, and gay rights was like a political issue that we debated, and I remember that being kind of like the first time that I really thought, that I realized that being gay. that some people thought it was bad. Like really bad, where they didn’t want people to have rights. So, I kind of knew about it but it didn’t really… it wasn’t like an important thing or something that anybody ever really talked about. But then I remember being in class and having people just be so emotional about how bad it was, and being shocked. Because I was like “What are you…? This is not politics, this is just human, this is just people living their life. [It] doesn’t affect you at all! I don’t understand why is this a political issue that we are debating in class.” So that was the first time that I realized that it was bigger than just existing. Yeah. 5 �[17:12] Ashley: As you grew up and going into college and everything, how did that…How did that self discovery kind of happen? [17:24] Liza: Well… so I consider myself bi, and that wasn’t a thing when I was growing up. Being bi wasn’t a thing. It was either one or the other, even though everybody used the LGBT, nobody ever talked about the ‘B.’ It was just like, it didn’t exist, you were either gay or you were straight. And… that’s still the case to a degree I think, in like a lot of circles. You know, it’s changing but, you know, my dad… I told my dad I was dating a girl and he thought I was gay, you know. Like he was confused when I broke up with her and then started dating a guy and then broke up with him. My brother was like, “Yeah, Liza just broke up with this guy” and my dad was like, “What? I thought she was gay?” He was like, “No, Dad, she’s bi.” You know, just doesn’t understand. So, anyways… so yeah, I didn’t know any bi people. And so for a long time I just was straight… and gender queerness was not on my radar until like maybe 2019? 2019, what was that like four years ago? [18:55] Ashley: Yeah, about four years ago. [18:57] Liza: Yeah, that wasn’t even on my… maybe 2018, maybe I heard like a little bit about it. But I didn’t really like hold it in, like I didn’t really let it in as an idea until 2019. I remember because it was like a person, one of my friends I had met, a new friend when I moved to Lynchburg who’s trans and was like, “Non-binary people are a thing.” And I was like, “what?” And he was also like, “Bi people are a thing, Liza.” And I was like, “Uh, really?” He was like, “Yeah.” I was like, “Oh.” Because we met at the Diversity Center in Lynchburg. So here’s the funny thing is that like I thought I was straight and cis for a really long time, but I kept going to queer spaces as an ally, right? So, I would go to the LGBT [center] at Virginia Tech. I was in a drag show, like I was going to all their parties, but all the lesbians were like, “Liza, we know you’re straight, so you gotta like tell people you’re straight, or all lesbians are gonna like wanna date you or something.” So, nobody really allowed that, like even the queer community didn’t allow me to explore my sexuality. Which is sad, like I had to pick one. And the fact that there was sort of a patriarchal streak in that, right? Cause like you don’t tell these people that you’re unavailable then they’re gonna not be able to help themselves or whatever, you know. It’s like the same shit that happens with men. It’s like you need to tell them your intentions. It’s like alright, okay. Just trying to like live here, just trying to exist, and figure out who I am as a human being at twenty [laughter]. So anyways, like I always sought out queer spaces, and when you go into queer spaces— perhaps you know this or have experience—you go into queer spaces and people like to introduce yourself. You introduce yourself with your identity sometimes [laughter]. Maybe that’s not like a thing that people do anymore, but you know, I used to go to places and they be like, “introduce yourself! Like what’s your name? What’s your pronouns?” Well, people didn’t 6 �really ask pronouns back then, but it was more like, “What’s your gender and your sexual orientation [laughter]?” Which is like such an interesting way to introduce yourself. So, I would always go into spaces and be like, “Hey I’m Liza, I really don’t like saying this but I guess I’m straight, and I guess I’m cis?” And I did that next to my friend in Lynchburg at the Diversity Center, and we like, we had just moved there at the same time. So, and we lived kinda close to each other. So, we were like “let’s be friends.” So then we started hanging out and he was like, “Yeah I heard like, what do you mean you guess you’re this and you guess you’re that?” and I was like, “Yeah I don’t know. Just always felt so weird.” And he was like, “you know bi people are real?” I was like, “Yeah.” Then I started really reflecting on a lot of my experiences as a kid and realizing that they were gay! Super gay, like so gay! It was like the first person I ever hooked up with was a girl and I didn’t tell anybody about it. It wasn’t in front of people, you know, like in this performative way. It just happened. And I hated being referred to as a girl as a kid. So, yeah. So anyways that was amazing. So, like my big realization that I was queer was four years ago. When my friend who’s like super queer, or like the queerest person maybe I have ever met. It’s true. He just like held space for me while I like had this huge realization about myself. [23:22] Ashley: You rethought your whole life. [23:23] Liza: Yeah, I mean just like deep reflection. And I kept being like, “Yeah, I just realized that this thing was a thing.” And he was just like, “What the fuck, Liza! How did you not know that you were gay!” [laughter] So anyways, I’m cursing a lot on this recording. [23:39] Ashley: That’s okay. [23:40] Liza: Okay. So yeah… did that answer your question? I don’t know if that answered your question? [23:45] Ashley: No, that’s great. Just not really having that community growing up, not even knowing it was a thing until very recently, and that you kind of like formed it for yourself… [23:57] Liza: Yeah. [23:57] Ashley: …when you were really allowed to. [24:01] Liza: Yeah. Totally. And I feel like now I have this really interesting group of friends who all identify as queer. Which is an interesting shift, right? Queer, like the word ‘queer,’ wasn’t used in my world until… I think that’s the biggest thing is like this word ‘queer’ is like new as in five years old for me.And because I never identified as gay or a lesbian, I didn’t identify as trans. I know some non-binary people who do identify as trans. I still don’t 7 �necessarily do even though I know it’s allowed to be under that umbrella. But yeah, it was like, the word ‘queer’ is just so beautiful because it’s so like… I don’t know. It’s like an ethereal thing that you just get to swim in and find your identity in these weird floaty pieces, and then it can change and go over here, and it’s really beautiful. So, all the people that I hang out with are queer, they’re not like… I have like maybe one friend that identifies as gay, but also queer, you know. [25:36] Ashley: Yeah. [25:37] Liza: A close friend I would say. I have a lot of friends floating out there in the world. [25:41] Ashley: Hmm, so you have explored more queer spaces and just formed that community for yourself. Is that including on the flower farm? [25:53] Liza: Yeah, so the two farmers are queer that moved out there that are starting a farm. So, my friend that moved out to the farm with me to help start the farm is queer, identifies as non-binary. And, so we moved out there, and then my friend who moved out there because she needed a place to live. She identifies as gay and went through that transition on the farm too, which is amazing, like realizing that she was gay. It’s like, it’s amazing. This land in particular is holding space for gayness and queerness in a way. Like, I actually had multiple people start exploring their queerness on this land. Including myself, you know, to a degree. So, this land is queer. Very. [26:41] Ashley: What kind? [26:42] Liza: The farm is gay [laughter]. [26:44] Ashley: What kind of flowers do you grow on the farm? [26:46] Liza: Gay ones. [26:47] Ashley: Gay ones [laughter]. [26:49] Liza: I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. I mean, maybe not. [26:52] Ashley: Just very colorful? [26:53] Liza: Yeah. Colorful. All the flowers. I have a planting chart. I could list all the flowers for you if you wanted me too. But I have half an acre. I grow a lot of Dahlias because I love them, and they’re amazing, and I grow Zinnias, and Celosias, and Gomphrena, and Amaranth, 8 �and Scabiosa, and Snapdragons, and Stock, and Ranunculus, and Tulips, and Daffodils, and Peony. You know, I grow it all, as much as I can. [27:34] Ashley: All of the colors of the rainbow. [27:35] Liza: All the colors of the rainbow [laughter]. All the colors, yeah. Yeah, oh my god. I love it so much [laughter]. [27:43] Ashley: So, you said before that you come into the city a lot—city of Roanoke. And so what do you do in Roanoke? [27:54] Liza: I don’t come to Roanoke a lot actually. I don’t know if I said that. But I don’t come a lot. I come to Roanoke, and I mostly come to see friends. The pandemic has made it hard to want to go into public spaces, right? And that’s like why you come into the city, is to like go to bars, and like go to the art gallery, and go to gatherings, right? Cause I live in the middle of nowhere, and there’s nothing to do. Well, like, it's just different. [28:31] Ashley: Different? [28:32] Liza: I’ll spend all day petering around my farm, and be perfectly happy, cause I have so much to do. So, it’s not like there’s nothing to do there. But you know, like, this is the thing. When I was in college, I used to go to The Park all the time. All the time. Like, all the time. We would all jump in a big car, and pregame, and show up to The Park at like midnight, or one, and party for two hours, and then drive home. When I was in college. When I was straight. [29:07] Ashley: When you were straight. Going to The Park. [29:09] Liza: Going to The Park as a straight person. I’ve been to The Park twice since I graduated college, which is pretty sad. But, and then, weirdly, so my best friend lives here, who is not queer. And then somehow I have built this queer community. I’ve got another friend that just moved here recently. And I’m starting to slowly meet people, like your professor and some other people in the community, and yeah, it’s beautiful, I love this like…I love this community. [30:03] Ashley: This one that you have built yourself, and been able to include everyone, really. [30:11] Liza: What do you mean? [30:13] Ashley: As in… because you weren’t included, you weren’t allowed to be yourself before. 9 �[30:20] Liza: Mhmm. [30:23] Ashley: And now you’ve maybe created yourself? [30:25] Liza: Yeah! It’s really interesting. So like I pass, right? Like that’s the thing. I’m like a queer person, but I pass as like a straight cis person. And, so I have all these friends that have known me, and my family who has known me through my whole life, and I’ve really just started coming out in the last…. Like, I started having realizations about myself like four years ago or three years ago or whatever. And then I really started coming out in the last year, you know, and like two years ago, I guess, almost two years ago, was when I had my first like visibly queer relationship, even though I have had very very queer relationships in the past. Also, very telling, right? [31:19] Ashley: [laughter] [31:20] Liza: You know. Yeah, and like the gender…It’s like when I dated a girl, nobody batted an eye. But then, when I’m telling people that I am non-binary, and I prefer for them not to refer to me as like a lady or a girl, that is a little bit more jarring for people. And so, that is context for how, you know, I sought out this queer community, that I didn’t have to explain myself to at all. And like, there were no assumptions made, right? So, it was like people were asking me, rather than me having to correct them. And then like also holding space for me to be like, “I guess I don’t even know how to talk about who I am as a human being, and like, I feel really weird, and like, this isn’t my experience, and like, I’m coming to this as a thirty year old person,” and everyone being like “calm down. It’s okay.” Like, you know, you are who you are and that’s beautiful, and it’s great. And all you have to do is exist, in whatever truth is comfortable for you in any given context. [32:36] Liza: And so, the queer community that I have now versus the queer community that I had in college that didn’t really hold space for that at all, who I love dearly. All those people are really special to me, but it was just…You know, your reality is your reality. And the reality back then was that bi people didn’t exist, even though they did. Right? That was more of like a framework of how people see the world. Anyways, yeah, so it’s like two very different queer communities, very different communities. So I have this amazing community that’s super supportive, and then I have this hella straight community that I’m starting to pull into my truth. So, yeah, like I’m trying to… I’m not 100 percent all truthful with my straight community. Straight cis community. Whereas like the queer community is like “we see you, for exactly who you are.” So it’s interesting. [33:51] Ashley: Why do you think you can’t be who you are with the straight cis community? 10 �[33:55] Liz: Energy levels mostly. You know, it’s exhausting to have to hold space for people who feel threatened by how you want to be seen. You know, my dad kind of freaked out a little bit when I told him I was bi. He didn’t like freak out at me directly, but he had an internal struggle with it and lashed out at me in different ways. And that’s just exhausting, you know. And also, to be like over and over again, “okay, please don't call me a woman, please don’t call me a woman, please don’t call me a girl, or lady.” You know what has been really helpful? Social media. Instagram. I started saying these things on Instagram, in my stories. Just being like blanket, just so like I don’t have to tell each individual person, just be like, “Alright! I’m nonbinary, and I don’t have a pronoun preference but please don’t call me a girl, and please don’t call me a lady. Instead, you can call me ‘friend,’ or ‘love,’ or ‘human.’” And people are changing! Like that’s amazing. But then some people, like, “I know you’ve seen my story, and you’re still calling me a girl.” So, it’s like, how many times do you wanna do that? How many times do you want to come out to somebody and correct them? So, I guess, it’s not that I’m holding back from people. I feel very open. I’ve talked to my mom about being non-binary. She loved my ex-girlfriend. You know, very supportive of my sexuality and super supportive of like pronouns and stuff for the most part. But, you know, she still calls me her daughter. Which is fine, you know? Because I am, in the context of our relationship, and the way that we’ve related to ourselves for so long, and the way that the world relates to us. It’s sort of this interesting, like…. How much do I wanna push? It’s not that I’m hiding from my straight community, they know how I feel and who I am, but it’s like they don’t know the context. They’re not queer, so they don’t understand the importance of pronouns. And they don’t understand the importance of the language that we use and they don’t understand that when they call me a lady, it makes me not feel seen. And so, having to explain that and have them understand it, is just so much energy, and I don’t wanna do it [laughter]. Sometimes. Cause I’m tired. [37:09] Ashley: Do you think that social media has helped educate some people? [37:13] Liza: Oh my god. You know Alok [Vaid-Menon]? Oh my god. You gotta find Alok on... I found them on Facebook. I can’t believe I found them on Facebook. [37:29] Ashley: How do you spell that? [37:30] Liza: Alok? A-L-O-K. They’re a non-binary person. They’re a poet, fashionista. Which, I don’t care about fashion at all, but this person was the non-binary… I don’t know. They were my non-binary icon. They were the person that made me realize. Listening to their poetry, and reading their posts, and witnessing the way that they move through the world was how I realized I was non-binary. And, we have completely different experiences, cause they are brown, and AMAB [assigned male at birth], and from a city. 11 �[Bella shows Liza a picture of Alok] [38:22] Liza: Yes, that’s them. And [they] are, I think, first-generation US citizen. Even though [they] are interested in fashion and live in New York City. And I’m like this grungy farmer, AFAB [assigned female at birth], white AFAB person with inherited land. Which is like so different, but the things that they say, and the way they talk about being non-binary, and the way that they see themselves. They really helped me realize how constructed gender was. And I found them in 2017, and so they were huge for me. And this was before I even got an Instagram. I didn’t even get an Instagram until 2019, I think. So, they had paid advertisements on Facebook, and somehow, this was when paid advertisements first started. That’s when they kind of started. And that’s when they started really ramping up. So, 2017, through Facebook is where I found out about non-binary-ness, and really learned. And then when I got Instagram and learned about hashtags. Whoo man, hashtags! Learned about hashtags, and I found queer people. That’s how I found my queer farmer friends that now live on the farm. There is a hashtag called “queer farmers.” So, I follow that, and now I have an Instagram queer farmer community. Of people that we know each other. [But] we never met, you know. So yeah. [40:17] Ashley: So that online queer community is also very… I sense it’s been very helpful. [40:23] Liza: So, yeah. The queer farmers is a smaller community. It’s very specific. It’s a very specific community. Especially in the farming world. Like, oh my god. But, randomly, Floyd has a million queer farmers, it’s so weird and amazing. Queer farmers in particular. Cause like queer city people are amazing, love them, but I’m not a city person. And then rural people, you run the gambit, it’s like woah. It’s a lot of different kinds of rural people. And just like flat rural people, right? Very different! [41:07] Ashley: What are different kinds of rural people? [41:10] Liza: Well, I mean there were two Biden signs in… I don’t even know how many mile radius. One of them was on our farm during the election, and the other one was someone like a mile from us. And then otherwise, it was just a sea of Trump signs. And there’s still quite a few Trump signs still up, a year or two later. I have a neighbor that has a Trump sign that’s been in their yard for a really long time, and they put a spotlight [on it], you know, one of those spotlights you use to light up a sign. Like, it’s just a little plastic, flimsy one. A little plastic, flimsy Trump sign. [41:59] Ashley: Yeah. 12 �[42:02] Liza: Like maybe that big [show of hands], and they put a spotlight on it that lights up at night. I hate to let politics define people because we put a Biden sign up, but I was like, we are only doing this to try to encourage people to vote. It’s not like I felt super pumped about putting a Biden sign out front. But, to just show people that there was some other form of thought process besides Trumpiness. So there’s like… it’s different, and that’s another part of being queer in a rural area is that when I was dating… When I was in a very visibly queer relationship, I was a little nervous because we had really just moved there. This was like 2020 when I started dating her, and… [43:06] Ashley: Right at the heat of everything? [43:07] Liza: Yeah, it was 2020. I didn’t really know my neighbors. I was not out to them. We didn’t have a community of resources, and everybody thought that Kevin, who presents male, was like, we were together. He’s the one that moved out with me. My neighbor who I’m friends with now, who knows now that I’m bi, and knows now that I was dating that girl, met her multiple times and she was like, “wow, you must be really good friends.” Cause she lived in D.C., so she was coming down from D.C. Queer dating in a rural area. We lived five hours away from each other. So, my neighbor was like, “Oh wow. You must be really good friends if you’re traveling.” Versus like somebody sees Kevin mowing the lawn and is like “oh, y’all are married, right?” So, the assumption… [44:08] Ashley: Assumptions of straightness? [44:09] Liza: Assumptions of straightness. Which, that’s everywhere. It’s not necessarily just rural, but I think what makes living in a rural area different is that your community is extremely small. Very limited. I mean I have two neighbors. Neither one of them ever put a political sign out. Neither one of them ever mentioned gay people, trans people, no… Like, Kevin and I were always intensely listening very closely when either one of them talked to see if they would offer any hint of where they stood politically. And it never happened [laughter]. Never! Until, like a year after knowing one of my neighbors, and we were talking about dating, because her husband died, so we were talking about dating and I just sort of had two glasses of wine and casually mentioned that I was bi. And she was like “Oh! Okay, well that means you have like twice as many chances of meeting somebody [laughter].” And I was like “whew, alright, great.” Also a lot of energy, right? Coming out to people you don’t know how they’re gonna act. So, it’s stressful. I mean, she’s like a huge asset to me and my existence out there. We borrow each other’s time and tools, and our friends. And like, if she was homophobic or transphobic, that would be fifty percent of my community cut. Boom. Whereas like when you’re in a city, somebody doesn’t like you because you’re gay? Who cares! There’s somebody right there, there’s like twenty people in line waiting to be your friend. Whereas like in a rural area, you just don’t have that. 13 �So I still haven’t come out to some of my neighbors because I literally have no idea how they feel. And they kind of have stopped reaching out to us ever since. Because we were trying to figure out how to come out to them eventually. It’s sort of one of those things where if I end up with somebody who passes, and we are in a hetero relationship, I don’t have to come out to anybody. But, if not, I would come out to people eventually, and present my partner. But the two that moved out there [to the land], the two farmers that moved out there are very visibly queer. And I was talking with them about how we wanted to approach the subject with our neighbors. I was like, “do you want me to tell them, like how should we do it?” So, we ended up having a gathering of local queer people at the farm, and I invited them to the party because we were kind of inviting each other to parties back and forth. I was like, “yeah, we’re having a small party, we are gonna introduce Morgan and Reynaldo to the local gay and trans community in the New River Valley if you wanna come and say hi.” And they were like, “Thanks!” And that was pretty much it, and we haven’t heard from them since. There are some other issues but… so, I don’t know. I don’t know. Are they just uncomfortable with us existing there? Or do they not care? Some people I think don’t care, but they don’t know how to interact with you. So, they just kind of ignore you. You know what I mean? [47:51] Ashley: Yeah. [47:52] Liza: They’re just confused, they don’t have context for you. And so they don’t know how to relate to you, so they just don’t talk to you. Which, I think, one of the people on the farm is not white, and that has been his experience as well. With certain people they’re just like, “I don’t know how to relate to you, because you are not a white person. So, I’m just gonna go talk to this white person instead.” So I imagine that that’s possible. We don’t actually know if they are homophobic or transphobic, or if they just don’t know how to interact with queer people. I have no idea. [48:31] Ashley: So you think it’s important that with social media and stuff that people could be more open minded to learn more so you don't have to spend… [48:42] Liza: Yeah. [48:43] Ashley: …so much energy time teaching? [48:43] Liza: Yeah, I do. Yeah, I don’t publish... I would delete Facebook if I could because I hate it. But I have to have it for my business. And one friend who refuses to get on Instagram [sighs]. And I have a hard time communicating with her otherwise. But, anyways, I don’t post anything like that on Facebook. I have too much history, too many friends, family members. I don’t even know who my friends are, I don’t even know who would see it. I don’t even know how public it is. I have completely just stepped away from Facebook. For Instagram, I have a 14 �private account now. I used to have a public account. Private account and got close friends, the rest of them. I am very selective about who follows me. So, I’ve got my personal account and then I’ve got my business account. My personal account is very much queer and political, and random thoughts of the day, and then I don’t post any of that stuff [on my business account]. I do have on my website, and any time I introduce myself on Instagram, I include that I don't have a pronoun preference. But that is pretty much as far as it goes. And then I always use preferred pronouns for my friends, when I refer to them. I have a lot of non-binary friends who only use they/them pronouns. So, if I take a picture of them and post it, I’ll use their pronouns so it’s very subtle and normalized, as far as my business social media goes. [50:36] Ashley: Do you think it is important to normalize queerness? [50:38] Liza: Of course! Oh, of course, of course. The first piece of marketing, I had a rack card that’s like this big [making a gesture to card size] with some pictures, cause I do weddings. I had three pictures on the rack card and one of them was of two women getting married, that I did their flowers a couple years ago. So, I had two hetero couples and then a queer couple on my rack card, so it’s very important to me to represent, like really important. My website also, yeah I wish I had more photos to share of like queer couples and queer people in general. Yeah, of course I want to normalize queerness. [51:52] Ashley: Yeah, and important to make a safe space? Like to project that you and your little community that you’ve built is a safe space? [52:01] Liza: That’s what I want to do. I had somebody come out to the farm last year in the spring cause she was interested in volunteering on the farm. I was like, ok well, I didn’t know her at all. She just emailed me like out of the blue. I was like, “ok, well actually come and we’ll walk the farm and we’ll talk and see if it seems like something you’d want to come and do every week.” And she was like “okay.” So, we came, she met a couple of my friends that were there just like having lunch one day. And we walked down to the farm and looked at everything, talked about some tasks, very farmy. And when we were walking back up the hill, and I was like “well, why don’t you think about it. If this is something you’re interested in. I just want you to know like there’s something that’s really important if you decide you want to come and work here everyday, and that is that this is a very queer farm. There is a lot of like non-binary and trans people that work here, or live here, or visit here, or volunteer here. This is my identity, you know, so if you’re uncomfortable being around queer people and their various pronouns and identities, it’s not going to be a good fit for you.” And she was like, “Wow, thank you so much for saying that! I have a gay cousin. I’m totally down with gay people.” And I was like, “alright, cool, okay.” And then she was one of the people that really had this deep reflection about her gender identity after we had a lot of conversations and she was coming back every week. And 15 �I’m hoping at some point to... Cause I don’t have a lot of people that I don’t know coming to the farm. And if I’m going to have a volunteer, I’m going to have that disclaimer that this space is queer and if you’re not down you can’t come. But I have a lot of clients that come and pick up flowers on the farm. A couple people, like this one lesbian couple, married lesbian couple that live in Meadows of Dan. Amazing. I know multiple gay people, older people, in Meadows of Dan that are like grounded there, never going to leave. It’s incredible. They come and pick up flowers every week through the CSA, but I’m sure that’s just going to keep getting more people. And so, like I want to… I have this vision, cause I’m still building everything. Things are still like a wreck, we just got water ten months ago on the property. We’re still building things, but there’s like the building where people pick up their flowers if they come for a wedding or whatever. I have this vision of having kind of queerness there in the building, very visible things. Maybe not like a flag, even though I do have a flag on the back of my truck, my farm truck. [It’s] the on with the arrow, the trans POC arrow, so that’s on the back of my truck. So, if I drive around town there’s that, which feels really good. So I want it to be a space where if they pick up flowers and they really look around, they’re like “oh okay. I can see where this person stands as far as queerness and historical perspective, colonialism.” I’d like to figure out a way to do that that is not performative but feels very honest. [56:05] Ashley: How do you think you would do that? [56:08] Liza: Well, there’s this one picture of Alok that I’m in love with, one of their first portraits that I think I ever saw and it’s a profile of them. They have like flowers all over their head, or maybe it’s like a collar? I guess I can’t quite envision it in my brain. But it’s so pretty that I’d like to get a portrait of that, and frame it, and put it on my wall somewhere. Because that’s what people do to their idols, right? I like that. That feels very queer to me. That’s pretty much as far as I’ve gotten [laughter]. Maybe like a sign. You know those signs that are lik “live, laugh, love,” “this kitchen is for dancing.” I want a sign that says, “respect people’s pronouns” or something like that in that font. No, that font is terrible. Something like that. I’ve thought about things like that. [57:18] Ashley: You mentioned colonialism. Can we talk about that? [57:20] Liza: Yeah, I mean, my land was, is traditional Tutelo land you know? And my ancestors are white and were given stolen land. And I think that’s really important to talk about regularly and I do have that acknowledgement on my website. So, my website has some visible stuff, thoughtful things, and it’s not all rainbows and sunshine. It’s like I very explicitly say on the website that I have access to this land through a violent past, and I want to work toward healing that and make reparations. I don’t know if I use the word ‘reparations,’ actually. I’d have to go back and look at that since I wrote it two years ago. But, yeah, the two farmers…It’s really important to me to pull in a land-back element to what we’re doing on the land, so the two 16 �farmers that have come to the land agree with that. We had these really big intense talks about land ownership and the eventual goal is to put the land into a trust, so I don’t own it, nobody owns it, we’re just stewarding the land. And we want to create a land-back tax, which is kind of where we are right now, where you pay a little extra money and it goes toward a local tribe, but not all tribes have an organization around them. So, as far as my research has gone, there is not an organization for the Tutelo people, but there is a language program in North Carolina for the Tutelo language. That is the Tutelo traditions and language is being housed under a bigger tribe organization and recognition. I don’t know if it will happen this year, but soon, maybe next year, we’re going to make connections with that tribe and let them know that “we’re interested in supporting your language program or however it feels appropriate. This is kinda what we’re thinking. What do you think? Is this something we can do?” And yeah, go from there. So, we haven’t made the connection yet, it’s in our brains but there’s so much going on—like I said, we just got water—so, we’re just existing. We’re just day to day existing, trying to build our businesses and keep our farms afloat and stay alive on the land. Who’s to say that that priority is appropriate, but that’s what we’re doing now. We’re doing our best, but it’s in the eventual goal to do that. [1:01:04] Ashley: But it’s really admirable that you’ve built this, this community that you have that seems very loving and accepting. [1:01:15] Liza: Yeah, we’re doing our best, you know. It hasn’t been easy. Communication is like the hardest thing, right? And we’re all human beings, so we all fuck up, and we’re working on accountability. We had a challenge last year where somebody said something that they knew was weird but they never addressed it, and then somebody else was like “wow, that was really fucking weird and I did not like it.” So then there was this thing where they, the person who was like “Oooh I don’t feel safe” came to me and was like “this happened and I didn’t feel safe,” and I was like “yeah, that was really weird. I’m so sorry I didn’t address it in the moment.” Then I went to the person who said the thing and was like [to the person who was harmed] “what can I do to support you cause I want you to feel safe here.” And they were like “maybe just talk to them about it?” and I was like “okay, I’ll do that. Can I mention that you said something blah blah blah.” They said “yes please.” So, then, I went to the person and I was like “two weeks ago when you said this thing, this person felt really uncomfortable.” And they were like, “Oh my god, I’m so glad you said something cause I felt really weird about it, and I should have said something about it in the moment.” So, that was the first time we had to have accountability, and it went so well! I was nervous, and I realized that that was my whiteness, cause the person who said the thing was white, and the person who was uncomfortable is Black. And the person said something weird about race, and the person knew it was weird but it wasn’t addressed in the moment. So then we—all three of us—had this realization like: okay, we all thought it was weird and none of us said something until later. So, we all know now that we can say something, and we all want to be held accountable, which is really beautiful. 17 �That’s the hardest part, you know, communicating. I’ve lived with a lot of people. I’ve moved around a lot. I’ve had a million roommates. I’ve had amazing roommates. I’ve had terrible roommates. I've had roommates that had horrible communication skills. Horrible! And so, I feel really strongly about communication, and accountability is something I’ve really leaned into in the last couple of years as far as holding people accountable when I need to, and I’m making it very clear that I want people to hold me accountable. That even though I may have a gut reaction, I need them to do that for me. I’ll do my best to not be a shithead. You know? This community that I have feels the same way. It’s amazing. We all want to be held accountable. And I’m witnessing people holding each other accountable, and it’s really beautiful. So, this community is very intentional, not in like the intentional community that’s squishy and whatever. We’re talking about hard stuff. We’re talking about colonialism and capitalism and not like…We all believe in the swirling magic of nature, for sure, I one-hundred percent am like a hippie, or whatever. I believe in spirits, and fairies, and all that stuff, but also that’s not all there is in the world. So it’s beautiful, but it’s hard, but it’s beautiful. [1:05:16] Ashley: So, do you think that if people were to open themselves to accountability and communication that would make it more safe for queer people? [1:05:30- 1:06:20] Interruption [1:06:21] Ashley: Talking about accountability. So, you think accountability is a very important thing to have not only in queer spaces, but everywhere? [1:06:32] Liza: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, that would change a lot, right? If we normalized accountability, right? I think accountability is very gendered to the way we even think about accountability, and who gets held accountable, and in the ways they get held accountable, and in the ways they’re not held accountable. So, yeah, the jails would look very different if people were held accountable. You know? The people that are in there would look very different. A lot of things would change. Not saying that I support jails, but that was one of the first thing that came to my brain as far as racial inequities and class inequities in jail systems, and who gets held accountable and who doesn’t…and also like, who’s there for no reason. [1:07:49] Ashley: I do agree that accountability would just… if people just normalized accountability, normalized queerness, the world would be a very different place. [1:08:00] Liza: Mhm. For sure. God, I know. When my friend was held accountable for what they said, there was no defensiveness at all. There was no feeling of needing to hold onto some sort of righteousness. I think that’s how accountability works, right? It’s where you are like, “I fucked up, I’m sorry.” Normalizing fucking up. Normalizing there is no such thing as a good 18 �person or a bad person. We are all in our own realities, and we’re humans. That’s a really beautiful thing. I think that’s really strong in our community, which is really incredible. [1:09:01] Ashley: I think that is a lovely note to end on [laughter]. I want to thank you for your time, Liza, and thank you for sharing about your community and story. [1:09:19] Liza: Yeah, thanks for having me! This was nice [laughter]. [1:09:25] END. 19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Liza Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Liza Interviewer: Ashley Werner Interviewee: Liza Date: February 25, 2022 Location: Fintel Library, Roanoke College Total Duration: 1:09:25 Transcription prepared by: Baillee Heatwole, Da’Vaun Lee, Isabella Moritz, Ashley Werner, and Reagan Westphal Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 February 2022 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Liza, Ashley Werner, Baillee Heatwole, Da’Vaun Lee, Isabella Moritz, and Reagan Westphal Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Liza https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5970/FeazellTommyl.MP3 af214f02b61ddfb29ed1e3e3d53aaded https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/5970/FeazellTommy.1.pdf 389b3f93f4fd6e3723382effbe4b61cc PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Tommy Feazell February 26, 2022 Interviewer: Ellasen Spangler Narrator: Tommy Feazell Location: Feazell’s Home in Lynchburg, Virginia Transcribed by: Amanda Fox, Abbie Lewis, Samantha Meyer, Adam Reedy Duration: 1:35:33 Index: 00:00= growing up in Salem, Virginia at the time of racial integration (1960s) 01:34= family relationships; exploring gender as a child 3:01= growing up poor; getting teased 4:24= growing up very religious (Presbyterian), and effect on him 5:17= experimenting sexually with cousins (late 1960s); coming out to parents at age 15 (c. 1976); parents threaten him with lobotomy as a ‘cure’ (c. 1977) 9:31= experiences at Salem High School as a queer teenager (late 1970s) 12:12 = discovering Murphy’s, a downtown Roanoke gay night club, c. 1977; attending the Park after it opened in 1978; using a fake ID 15:39 = singing in the choir in school; dressing up in flamboyant outfits 17:23= the gay bar scene in Roanoke in the late ‘70s: the Last Straw, Horoscope, Murphy’s, and Trade Winds 20:15= The Trade Winds; the first wave (1950s-early 1970s) versus second wave (late 1970s) of gay community organizing in Roanoke 21:54= the opening of The Park, a hub for the second wave of gay organizing (late 1970s-1990s) 23:21= Roanoke AIDS Project, the gay rap group, and other gay organizations in Roanoke (1980s-early 1990s) 25:00= Sharing posters he created for gay events; leaving college at VCU and getting involved in making art for The Park (mid-1980s) 27:20= performing in drag at Roanoke’s Pride in the Park festival (early 1990s) 29:05= Gay Bowling League; Miss Grandin Theater; Opera Roanoke 32:12= Lynchburg’s gay scene and PALS (early 1980s); editing the Blue Ridge Lambda Press (1985), and writing a column for the newsletter under the name Willy Waltzer (1980s-2000s) 37:09= college experiences at VCU, facing homophobic violence (early 1980s); gay bars in Richmond at the time 39:19= coming back to Roanoke after college; first apartment in Old Southwest (mid-1980s); working as a window dresser for upscale Southern department stores 42:12= career trajectory in fashion, design, sales, until people stopped hiring him 1 �45:35= AIDS in Roanoke; social class divisions among gay men in Roanoke 49:55= how he met his husband (2003) 51:14= meeting his ex-boyfriend’s family (late 1980s); meeting his husband’s family (early 2020s) 55:38= race relations in Richmond in the 1970s; current state of race relations among white, Black, and Hispanic peoples 59:18= segregation and prejudice in gay activist and social spaces, between men and women, and between white and Black people 1:02:40= Christianity and its impacts on queer people 1:04:18= a message to current queer youth 1:06:47= a message to his younger self; reflections on the future of gay rights, abortion access 1:10:44= gay men’s prior heterosexual relationships; having a stepson; relationship with his sister 1:14:24= the Backstreet Cafe tragedy (2000) and the public’s response 1:20:05= Anita Hill controversy (1991) and women’s rights 1:22:29= different denominations of Christianity and treatment of gays 1:25:47= what he would want to tell his parents 1:29:44= reflections on his time in activism and passing the baton to a younger generation 1:31:40= call to action for youth of today 1:34:58= legacy and closure 00:00 ES: Hi. My name is Ellasen. It is February 26, 2022 at 2:39 PM and I am speaking with Tommy Feazell. We are in Feazell’s home in Lynchburg, Virginia and we will be speaking about your time and involvement with the county [city] of Roanoke’s Pride initiative throughout your life thus far. Can you please start by telling us your name and where you grew up? 00:20 TF: My name is Tommy Feazell. I was born at Roanoke Memorial Hospital on June the 20th of 1961. I spent my childhood at 49 Ward Street, Salem, Virginia. We became Salem in 1968. We woke up on New Year’s Day, and the city of Salem was our boundaries on the edge of our yard and the city of Roanoke was now across the street. So we had to change our schools. All my childhood friends got sent to other schools, et cetera, et cetera. The first year I started school was the first year of integration for the school system. I met my very first Black children in first grade, Rochevious and Peggy Nance. I’d never seen a Black child before. I grew up in a different era. I grew up in an era when Black people rode on the back of the bus. I grew up in an era when the old Miller and Rhoads department store downtown had one bathroom in the basement for all Black men, women and children, while the whites had a lovely set of bathrooms up on the fifth or sixth floor—it was the top floor where the tearoom was—where there was an attendant to wait on you. So, it was quite a different world. So, what else would you like to know? 01:34 2 �ES: Did you have any siblings growing up? 01:35 TF: I had an older sister, Mary Jo. Mary Jo was beautiful, smart as a whip and normal. I was six years younger, buck toothed, mouthy, and very artistic. My parents were scared to death. 01:48 ES: So, would you almost say that you were like the black sheep of your family, as people call it? 01:52 TF: The oddball. I will not say black sheep, but I will say oddball. When I was five years old, at Christmas, I was precocious. I’d already learned to read. I asked my mother for an illustrated history of fashion that I saw on the mezzanine at Hieronimus, a department store in downtown Roanoke where the books were. Mama bought me the book. On Christmas morning at my grandparents where all my butch little boy cousins went around with their trucks and GI Joes and little gunfights and were acting masculine, I was waltzing around with my little fashion book open, pointing to a picture of Marie Antoinette going “panier means basket hoop” [ES laughs]. Needless to say, my mother and father were horrified. That is the morning that my grandmother turned to my mother and said, “Joanne, honey, you’ve got a queer on your hands.” My mother cried the rest of the day in the back guest bedroom. 02:44 ES: So, your parents knew kind of that you were gay ever since you were a child? 2:49 TF: Yes, most definitely. I was what is called effeminate. I had large eyes, long lashes, red lips, and got a lot of looks from older men that I didn’t understand until many years later. 03:01 ES: So, Salem is a particularly rural area. How was that like growing up within kind of that environment? 03:08 TF: It was brutal. Salem is very much a town of the haves and the have nots. My family didn’t have a dime. We were shunned, we were made fun of, we wore hand me downs. My sister was brilliant and precocious, but very quiet. Her feelings got hurt easily. I was mouthy. So, when the kids would call us “poor white” or “white trash,” I would say wonderful phrases to them like, “your mother’s a whore.” That always started fights. I always came in with bloody lips, but I 3 �never gave in. I mean, if you called me a name, I’d whip your… I’d just tongue lash you. Daddy said I had more balls than brains. 03:47 ES: [laughter] So, what’d your parents do when you were a child? 03:50 TF: My father was a machinist for the Norfolk and Western railroad for forty-some years. My mother was a secretary at a church. She had to later on give up the position when she became ill with cancer. She was also the librarian at the church. I was raised in a very, very, very religious background. We were strict Presbyterian. We did not drink, we did not smoke, we did not play cards, and sex was strictly for procreation and being queer was beyond beyond. You would burn in hell instantly. Leviticus was quoted quite often in my household. 04:24 ES: So, how do you think growing up in a religious household kind of shaped who you were, and who you are now? 04:32 TF: People won’t believe me when I say this, but it gave me courage. I was raised that I was one of the elect; I was Presbyterian. So, I didn’t care if I was a screaming faggot, I was still going to heaven. And I never drank. I never did drugs. I mean, my mother gave me a lot of moral backbone. And later on, like when I was fag-bashed later in college, it gave me the guts to keep my head up and keep rolling right on. Now from my father, he was a redneck. Daddy’s attitude was if you’re not invited to the party, then it’s not a party. This gave me a lot of courage. When I was snubbed, and made fun of at all, I would just stick my chin in there and say, “screw you” and go on. I mean, that was the redneck in me. 05:17 ES: So, with your parents, knowing kind of at a young age that you were queer and kind of gay at the time, and potentially growing up to come out later in life, how did that affect your relationship with your parents? Were they always supportive? 05:33 TF: Like I’ve told you earlier, when I was 16 my father wanted to have me lobotomized at the VA [Veteran’s Affairs hospital in Salem, Virginia]. Daddy was a World War II vet; he could get me in there. He said, quote, “We’re gonna fix your wiring.” I mean, being queer was not an option. I think he would have been cool if I had been butch and screwed girls and did guys on the side quietly. Later on in life, I found that that was something a lot of men did. As long as you had a wife and kids, but kept your mouth shut, it was just playing with the guys. You know, it wasn’t 4 �gay. It was just, you know, doing some guy stuff. It took my parents a long time. I don’t think they ever fully accepted, but they tried to love me and they tried to protect me. They thought I would burn in hell, but you know, they kept that to themselves after a certain time because I was so mouthy. They were always gracious to my gay friends. They were always gracious to the men I dated. Daddy would just always call them [mimicking in a southern accent] “my buds.” Yeah, I mean, daddy had gay friends and didn’t know it. I can think of one couple in particular that were together for forty years. And daddy just thought they were [mimicking a southern accent] “buds.” And they’ve had a home together, a life together, they traveled together. And Daddy never ever thought anything of it because they were both butch. If you were butch and had played sports, you could get away with murder. 07:01 ES: So, what age did you officially come out to your parents and kind of out to the public or if that was at two separate times? 07:08 TF: Two separate times, dear. I told my parents I thought I was gay when I was 15. Oh, I knew I was gay. But I mean, I knew when I was eight years old and started having sex with my cousins, but we’ll go into that later. I told my parents when I was fifteen, and my mother instantly put me into counseling with my pastor who didn’t know what the hell to do. So, he called in a man from California that had grown up in my church and had moved to California and become a minister in the MCC [Metropolitan Community Church] movement. And this guy flew into Roanoke and met with me, talked to me, and told my pastor, “He’s queer.” He goes, “and he’s gonna live a queer life.” You know, y’all just better get ready. So. 07:52 ES: Yeah, and you had talked about your cousins a little bit? What was the dynamic with that, and particularly if you would like to go into it? 07:58 TF: [interrupting] My cousins were butch, honey, so they didn’t get in trouble. I always got in trouble. But my cousins were butch. So, you know, nothing was ever said to them. I was the little queen, or the little queer, or the little cocksucker. So, you know, but I was a virgin… I would say all we did was just fool around. I mean, I didn’t get into man-to-man action until I was in college. But I mean, yeah, I fooled around with my cousins. But you know, we didn’t think that much of it. But I did have older cousins that wanted to take me away to the family cabin on the weekend, and my mother wouldn’t let them, and my father told my mother [mimicking in a southern accent] “Joanne, let him take him up there and make a man out of him.” So, I think daddy knew damn well what was going on, but he didn’t care because we were all related. He 5 �said [mimicking in a southern accent] “As long as it’s blood, it’s okay.” So do not ask me any questions about incest, I will not answer. So, anyway. 08:55 ES: [laughter] I totally understand. 08:56 TF: Yes. 08:57 TF: So anyway, not between me and daddy please don’t think that. but there’s a lot going on with the cousins. So anyway, I didn’t start to have real stuff until I was older. But yeah, fooled around when I was a kid with my cousins. All kids do, I think. I don’t know. 09:14 ES: Probably. 09:16 TF: I mean, my husband thinks it's perverted, so we won’t go into details. 09:19 ES: [laughter] Definitely. So, you came out to your parents, tried to come out when you’re 15. So, you’re right around the age of middle-high school. How was that age and like period for you? 09:31 TF: [whistles] Bad. Bad [whistles again]. High school was bad… .[sighs] I was not officially out but you could look at me and tell I was queer. I wore vintage clothing. This was not a done thing in Salem, and I would buy and wear vintage clothing and overcoats and ties to school every day and wingtip shoes and shit like that. And later on, I found that I was called the Gay Godfather of Salem High School after I graduated, the kids that came after me. Because I was regarded as one of the first out gays even though I didn’t think I was out. I had incidents where football players would, like, push me into my locker and… stroke me and you know, shit like that. And I’d push and run because I was terrified. Yeah, it was kind of, I liked the attention, [but] I didn’t want to get the shit beat out of me. I didn’t trust any of them. So I ran. I had teachers pick on me because they thought I was queer. It was not pretty. I would never ever wish my high school years on any kid because it was rough. If I had not been a strong individual, I would have buckled. There were gay kids that dropped out of school when I was going through high school that couldn’t take pressure. But I said, screw you. I’m getting my education and I kept going to school. Now my 6 �parents did have to get me a car, because I started to get roughed up on the school bus. And so, they got me a car so I could be safe going to and from school. 11:15 ES: What do you think really gave you the strength to keep persevering through high school? 11:24 TF: I’m half redneck. I was bullheaded. I would be damned if I let anybody run my ass into the ground. I mean, I was going to get my degree and I was going to be somebody, and you could go die. I mean, I always had a mouth on me. And I was always determined, and I wouldn’t let anybody ram me into the damn ground. That was the redneck in me. I mean, you know, you might be able to tell me off and you might be able to beat the shit out of me, but you weren’t gonna kill me and you weren’t gonna break my spirit. I mean, I was me. Screw you. I was wearing my British tweed overcoats to school every day and my ties and if you didn’t like it, you could go die. Now you could probably beat the shit out of me first. But still at the end of the… I might have a busted lip and a busted nose, but my head was up. Nobody was gonna knock me into the ground. Nuh uh. No. 12:12 ES: Absolutely. Do you have any memories from high school that you’re particularly fond of that you can look back on? Kind of pulling away from the dark times, were there any times that you look back on and your heart’s full? 12:30 TF: The only thing I can tell you I thoroughly enjoyed was when I was 15, maybe 16—this was the late ‘70s—The Park, the gay club, the big gay club, opened in downtown Roanoke. I had three fake IDs. Back in those days, an ID had a paper part to it. You had your photograph from the DMV, and then the paper part. If you were smart, you could take the paper part out and make copies of it on the copy machine in the library. And then you dipped it in green food dye, and it would make it green like the legal paper. If you knew how to take an exacto knife, you could cut numbers out and paste them on top of your legal birthday. So, I had a fake ID for 18, a fake ID for 21. I can’t remember the other age. So, I grew hair very fast as a young man. I started shaving in middle school. So, in the summers, I would grow a mustache and get a little bit of a tan and I’d hit the clubs with a fake ID. So, when The Park opened, now, I had been going illegally to Murphy’s, which is a long-gone club that was in downtown Roanoke. It was owned by Mr. And Mrs. Murphy that were from West Virginia. During the daytime it was a luncheon establishment for doctors, lawyers, and professional people in downtown Roanoke. At night, after 10 o’clock, it was a different story. They had a DJ. They had a tiny dance floor. If Papa and Mama Murphy knew you, they’d let you in. Their sons were gay, so they knew about gay people. You were not allowed to close dance. But you could dance—you know, you could dance with somebody, but 7 �you couldn’t touch them. There was no drag allowed in there. You could never ever admit you were gay because that was against the liquor law of Virginia. You were not allowed to serve a ‘known homosexual’ liquor. You could lose your liquor license which Papa Murphy highlighted it with yellow and put it at the front door so if the [Roanoke Police Department] Vice Squad ever said anything you were like [mimicking in a deep voice] “Oh hell no, I’m straight! I don’t know who these freaks are.” You know that sort of thing. So, Poppa and Momma Murphy watched out for me. They knew that I was underage, they knew but they never said anything. And me and my best friend Billy, we were known as the Dr. Pepper twins because we didn’t drink; we drank Dr. Pepper. And the Murphys watched out for us. And that was what I enjoyed because here by day I was at school being this prim quiet little queen, you know getting the snot beat out me but wearing my little outfits and all. But at night, I put on my tight botanical jeans and I’d roll downtown with Billy and we’d go to Murphy’s. I had a lot of fun. I was wearing vintage stuff like velvet smoking jackets. I mean, this was unheard of in Roanoke, unheard of. And I was, you know, doing vintage shit and British punk looks. And it was a lot of fun. I hated high school, and I hated most of the kids there. But at night, I could be me. And I would go down there. And it was perfectly innocent, there was no sex or anything going on. It was just dressing up and having fun and knowing that you were among people that didn’t look down on you because you were a fruit. 15:39 TF: So, the only good memory I have of high school with my peers [pause]… I would say there were three or four girls that liked me that I hung out with. And one of them’s mother was the Charleston Champion of Roanoke. She had won the title back in the ‘40s or ‘50s and she taught me to Charleston. I enjoyed the Proms because I’d always wear tails and I was a very good dancer. I had a lovely time at the Proms. I had a wonderful voice. So, I was in an elite singing group, that the director was a horrible homophobe and used to give me shit. But I stayed in the group because we went on tour. I was at all-state choir. And my favorite memory of that is we sang—they did the Waltz of the Flowers, and we all dressed as flowers. And of course, being gay, I was determined to outdo everybody, and I cut out a tulip head of bright yellow construction board that was at least three feet off the top of my head and I went to Stritesky’s Florist and got green floral paper and made a huge bow tie. And you could see me for ten miles on the back of the riser. I mean, my head piece was like, pure drag. I mean, and I didn’t know what drag was but God, it was for days. It made the yearbook. I was in the yearbook with that outfit on. Jesus [ES laughs]. And I was chosen to dance the waltz with a young lady, a delightful young lady. So, the picture is she’s in her ballgown, and she looks very white bread and pure. And here I am this bucktooth queen with a Donny Osmond haircut, and the biggest headdress on you’ve ever seen of a tulip. It was—oh, it was a sunflower! That was it. It had tons of points on it. It was a sunflower and oh it was awful. And it was tacky as hell, but it was fabulous. So. 17:23 8 �ES: [laughter] That’s awesome. That’s amazing. So, you had briefly talked about the liquor law. I had not really known, do you know when that changed? 17:34 TF: Ooh! You could not. It was a state law of Virginia baby. You could not serve a ‘known homosexual’ liquor, or you’d lose your liquor license. So gay bars were, eh… alright, let me give you a little bit of history that I don’t know if anybody has talked about in your interviews. When I started going to the bars illegally, it would have been the later ‘70s. You had the Last Straw, which was on Salem Avenue. I don't know if you’ve heard of the Last Straw. They probably have ads in the pink pages.1 But there was the Last Straw. That was real cruisy—that was a pool table and older men. And it was dark, and it was real cruisy. And it was a real tight-knit little group there. Those men took care of each other like brothers. And that was where the Rouge’s Levi & Leather club was. They hung out there. That was where they started. And I knew a lot of the founders, like Lee Cruise was a dear friend. He was a founder. Okay, then you had the Horoscope, which was a few blocks up and off, but I can’t remember the name of the street. You had the Horoscope. I could not get in there because they had a very strict doorman or doorwoman. Carolyn Sue Wilson, one of the most famous drag queens in Roanoke, who was a Miss Gay Roanoke. I don’t think she hit Miss Gay Virginia, but she was a Miss Gay Roanoke. She was the doormen there and you could not get your ass past Carolyn. If she knew you were underage, there’s no way you’d get in. So, I never even tried.2 Then there was Murphy’s. I had a fake ID. I could get into Murphy’s. That was good. All right. Then you had the big ol’ bad granddaddy of them all: the Trade Winds [whistles]. God, the Trade Winds was legendary. It was where the very first Miss Gay Roanoke pageant was held back in the ‘70s. I only went there a few times. It was going downhill by the time I got there. [It] was a bunch of old trolls. But in its day, it was run by a pair of brothers who were straight but knew the gay community. And as long as you were cool and didn’t act out too obviously, [or] touch other guys, they were cool with you. And it was another one of those things—it was a restaurant by day, a bar later at night. And it was on the corner of Elm…damn, I’ve moved… Elm and Franklin, Elm and Franklin. It’s no longer there. There’s a law office across the street from where it was. That’s…Krasno [Crandall] & Katt? 20:11 ES: Okay. Yeah, I know where. 20:13 TF: [interrupting] The guy with the beard that’s always on TV that handles car wrecks. 1 ‘Pink pages’ is a colloquial name for the Blue Ridge Lambda Press, the longest-running gay newsletter in Southwest Virginia (c. 1983-2008). 2 Miss Carolyn has also completed an oral history interview with the project. See Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Oral History Interview with Carolyn Sue Wilson,” February 25, 2018, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries. 9 �20:15 ES: [interrupting] Always on commercials, yeah. 20:15 TF: Yeah, the legal community calls it the Taj Mahal because it’s that big brick place [ES laughs]. All right. Well, the Trade Winds, there was a gas station there for years—it got torn down, but that was where a gas station was. Across the street was the Trade Winds. Oh my God, it was a bomb shelter. But it was historic. I mean, that is the granddaddy of Roanoke gay bars, the Trade Winds. They probably tore it down in the ’80s, maybe? And by then, the brothers were older and dying. But that was the hub for many years of the gay community in Roanoke was the Trade Winds. Trade Winds and the Last Straw. Okay, so then came the later era, which I guess I’m a part of. I’m a part of the second generation of gays in Roanoke. The first generation was like in the ‘50s, ‘60s, early ‘70s. They started the first gay liberation organization in Roanoke. They started the Rogues Levi/Leathers club. Many of those boys were arrested by the Vice Squad. Many of the boys lost their jobs when it was found out they were gay. I knew quite a few of those guys who were all older. Danny Jones, who I know you all must have interviewed in the past, he worked at the downtown library for years. Danny can tell you all about those days because he was a vital part of that, he and Lee Cruise and a few others were very vital.3 I was the next wave. I came of age in the disco era. Donna Summers, the whole nine yards. I came around in the ‘70s was when I was a teenager. So, I’m the second wave of the gay tide in Roanoke. 21:54 TF: So, when I was in my teens, later teens, The Park opened, and I consider The Park the big deal. As far as the ‘70s, ‘80s, and ‘90s go, as far as bar life. This was before social media, any of that crap. I mean, back in that day, there was a magazine called The Advocate, they had the pink pages with classified ads that you could write to other men all around the country and become pen pals or go meet them and trick or whatever. So, The Park was very much… it became the hub of the gay community in Roanoke. They started really going to town with Miss Gay Virginia, Miss Gay Roanoke, Mr. Star City. They started sponsoring part of the gay pride—the Pride day that came around [Pride in the Park]. I was one of the first people involved with starting the gay auction that helped the gay organizations here. Howard Nash and I started the first gay auction held at Gerry Jennings house in the mid to later ‘80s.4 And we did two or three there, then someone else took it over and they started doing it at MCC [Metropolitan Community Church of the Blue Ridge]. But Howard and I were the ones that started that. Well, I guess I should talk a little bit about what I was in the gay community. 3 See Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Oral History Interview with Daniel Jones,” February 20, 2016, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries. 4 See Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project, “Oral History Interview with Gerry Jennings,” February 23, 2016, Virginia Room, Roanoke Public Libraries. 10 �23:21 ES: [interrupting] Uh huh, absolutely. 23:21 TF: Okay, I was Tommy Feazell. And I was on the first board of the Roanoke AIDS Project. But I could not continue that because my best friend Jimmy became ill, and my mother became ill with cancer. So, I lasted on that maybe six months to a year, but I was there when it started at the Health Department in Vinton. That was where we met to start. I was part of Madonna House, which was the gay rap group that met once a week. Gerry Jennings started that. I got into it, I would guess in 1983 when I came back to Roanoke from college. I had been a guest there during college, but I became a member when I came back. And that was the gay rap group. There are still couples together to this day that met at Madonna House at the gay rap group. There are still men in the community, who because of the rap group got the courage to come out to their families. A lot of good gay things were born at the rap group at Madonna House. That was, you know, where the nuns lived over at Our Lady of Nazareth back in the day when it was downtown Roanoke. So, Gerry Jennings helped start that and then I got really involved in it. Okay, so then at The Park, as you see here [pulls out multiple posters], and I guess you can still hear me on your thingy. I did the posters. Like here’s The Park’s ‘93 New Year’s Eve party. I did all the posters from the mid-‘80s when I returned from college through the mid-‘90s. Here’s another Halloween party poster. 25:00 ES: [interrupting] That’s so cool. 25:01 TF: All right, now this is from Lambda Horizons which was the gay student group at Virginia Tech, which was really kicking ass—and let me see the date on this [looking at poster], 1986. Alright, in the mid-‘80s, there was a boy named Mark, I can’t think of his last name. He was the president of this, he was out as shit, he was kicking ass. So, Lambda Horizons and the Roanoke Pride Group worked together often to throw events to raise money for Lambda Horizons. Like you can see this was at the Fox Ridge apartments in Blacksburg, the Briarwood Club. So, I mean, this is gay history right here because these kids were out there getting the shit beat out of them, but they were doing it. I was so proud of them. Okay, this is a New Year’s poster at The Park. You know, so this was the sort of thing I did, and this was showing gay people that gay guys did art. You know, I also did artwork, but I couldn’t sell it in Roanoke because it was too forward. It was more like Tom of Finland stuff and galleries were scared to touch it. So, I still have got some of that upstairs and I sold some of it. So, anyway. 26:08 ES: What was the process of you getting involved doing the art and things like that? 11 �26:11 TF: Alright, I came back from college, from VCU [Virginia Commonwealth University] in Richmond, where yes, I did get fag-bashed. I had to have my face redone the first time but my sister sent money so my parents wouldn’t know. So, alright, this is what I sort of looked like [shows photograph]. This was my senior portfolio picture. Yay! So, yeah, I did that. I did my own artwork [shows multiple photographs]. This is from college when I posed for the nude modeling sessions, good God! This is, like I told you before, the Park was known for its Halloween parties, and they had competitions and people would come from all over the state and West Virginia to be in this competition. I mean, it was something! It was something. And I remember one year, Dane, a friend of mine, and I’m not saying last names because I don’t know if these guys are comfortable with being put on tape, he went as Glenda the Good Witch from the Wizard of Oz [ES laughs] and made that costume, and it was awesome! Hoops and everything. Cellophane crown with the jewels and he won, and then sold that costume to a professional drag queen who wore it in pageants nationwide. Isn’t that cool? 27:18 ES: That’s so cool! That’s really cool! 27:19 TF: That’s cool as hell! 27:20 TF: Alright, I was also known as Mary Read-your-Beads. Yes, here I am. Someone gave me a bolt of heavy blue fabric and I found an old pair of hoops at a thrift store, and I drafted it—and remember, my major was fashion design so I could make patterns and sew—so I made my own nuns outfit with hoops under it and everything. And here is my fly nun head dress that I made. So, Mary Read-your-Beads did two Pride in the Parks; it was when it was in Wasena Park. My tent was made out of Ralph Lauren chintz, and we hung a chandelier in the tree. I will never forget it. I mean, we were really kicking ass. We had tickets printed that said “Mary Read-yourBeads” and had a cross and prayer hands. So, people would pay me a dollar and I would read their fortunes. Now, I cheated. Like, some of the people came in and I knew who they were, and I knew what they had been up to. I was a horrible gossip. So, like I actually started some shit because like one gay couple came in and I knew one was cheating on the other one. So, I was reading my crystal ball and I had a button that made it light up, and if it went white you were going to heaven. If it went red you were going to burn in hell. So, I was reading my crystal ball and I would hit—the button was under my ass—so I would reach back and hit the button and it would go flaming red! And I turned to one of the gay guys and I said [in low menacing voice] “you will burn!” [ES laughs] and he was like “what?!” and I said, “you were in the back of a car with someone that looked like blah blah blah” and his lover turned to him and went “you son of a bitch! I know who it is!” And I mean, it was fabulous! [ES laughs] They started a fight in my tent. We had to get them out. So that was wonderful. I started a fight with a mother and daughter 12 �because I knew the girl was fooling around with some trashy guy from Southeast Roanoke. And so, I described his car and everything and the mother was like “you whore!” and smacked the girl. Oh, it was wonderful! So, that was Mary Read-your-Beads. 29:05 TF: I was in the gay bowling league for many years. I started with them on their second… they had fall and summer leagues, they started with a summer league, and this was in the mid-‘80s, and I went in as a replacement bowler on their first league. And then from then on, I was a member for years. I was the first winner of the Miss Style award because when I started to bowl—and that’s not a drag award—I could not bowl. So, when I bowled to begin with, I was on my knees and pushed the ball down the lanes [ES laughs]. So, like a retardo. And they named me Miss Style and so as a result they had the Miss Style award, and for many years I won that award but then a hairdresser came along, and he had a lot of style. Then we started to trade it back and forth and back and forth. Me and Jim, Miss Style, Miss Style. But I was the first Miss Style. 30:00 TF: I was the first Miss Grandin Theater. Julie Hunsaker had this movie called “To Wong Foo, with Love [Thanks for Everything], Julie Newmar,” with Patrick Swayze. Well, the premier night, it was all over the news in Roanoke that they were going to have a drag competition. You won a year’s supply of movie passes and popcorn I think it was. Well, I didn’t do drag, but I did Mary Read-your-Beads which, you know, was kind of radical drag. I had a beard and all. But, so, what I did was I had a ’77 Monte Carlo, one of those big boats with swivel seats in it. That was the only way I could get the damn hoops in the car. So, I dressed up a Mary Read-your-Beads, got a parking space right in front of the theater, I will never forget it! Right there on Grandin Road. Went sweeping in, they had to put a chair in the aisle because my skirts were too big to get me into the theater seats. They had the competition and my friend said, “get up there, get up there!” It was a bunch of drag queens, street people. And I was like “Oh! Never.” But I went up there, and as part of your competition you had to dance. So, all these girls are up there shimmying and doing all this nasty shit. So, when I got there, I could sing! So, I started to sing “The Hills are Alive” with the Sound of Music and I started to twirl. I went into the rapture with my crucifix [ES laughs], and they started screaming “the nun! The nun!” and I won the competition. So, I am the first Miss Grandin Theater. 31:15 TF: Alright, this was when I was a character singer with Opera Roanoke. I was a trained vocalist, a baritone. And I won my state competition, and then I was in Opera Roanoke and I am very proud because I speak no languages. I learned everything phonetically on a tape recorder. My vocal coach… 31:33 ES: [interrupting] That’s very impressive! 13 �31:34 TF: My vocal coach would speak the words for me, and I can’t read music, but I’m very musical. So, I would learn the music and it would take me forever to learn the lyrics, but I learned them, and I won my state competition, and I was very proud of that. In my thirties by then. This was when I was a socialite. Now back then, gay was glamourous to a lot of people. So, I had Thomas Jefferson hair that was in a ponytail, and I would wear a maury ribbon bow tied in it and pearls around my throat and lace fish shoes and ascots and all this crap. And I had a riding habit coat that was tied at the waist and a flared skirt, you know, the whole nine yards. So, and that’s how I would go out. I was, you know, Willy Waltzer, Tommy Feazell! 32:12 TF: Oh, Willy Waltzer. Willy Waltzer was the column that I wrote, oh my god, for fifteen years? 15 to 20 years? From the early ‘80s until the early 2000s. So, probably, I don’t know, twenty years, I was Willy Waltzer. I didn’t tell anybody, but some people knew. So, I wrote the Willy Waltzer column which was really well known. People liked it. I wrote about political issues. I wrote about how to date gay men. I wrote about when my mother died. I wrote about being proud and gay. I wrote about how to deal with harassment. I wrote about all sorts of stuff. It was just, you know, how to be gay. 32:57 ES: How did you find out about the Blue Ridge Lambda Press? 33:00 TF: Oh! That was Gerry Jennings. Gerry was one of my dear friends. Okay, let me get into this. Now we are getting into Lynchburg gay history. In Lynchburg there was a group called PALS: Positive Alternative Lifestyles. And it was up here in Lynchburg. And Doug and Dave ran it, and they were restoring historic homes on Madison Street and Harrison Street, off of Fifth Street in Lynchburg. They were part of the big gay wave of restoring historic homes. That’s where that started. Later, ten years later, it shifted to Diamond Hill. But at that time, it was on… I think it was called Garland Hill. Anyways, the streets are named after presidents. So, Gerry started bringing me up there during my college breaks. I would go to PALS meetings in Roanoke… I mean in Lynchburg, excuse me. And we would go up there and it was a very active gay community in Lynchburg. They all came to the bar on Saturday night, to The Park, but all the rest of the time they were having dinner parties and things up here in Lynchburg. So, they had the gay newsletter, I think it was called the PALS Newsletter then. When those guys moved onto other things, they sort of gave the newsletter to Gerry and Gerry brought it to Roanoke and the name became the Blue Ridge Lambda Press, BRLA [Blue Ridge Lambda Alliance]. And it became known as the ‘pink pages’ because the paper was pink to make it stand out plus pink was the color of the triangles worn in World War II by the gay inmates in the concentration camps. I mean we had that blurb in there, that’s why the pages are pink. So, we had the pink pages. And we handled a huge variety of topics. I mean it was the way the gay men communicated in a lot of 14 �ways. They were at the bars, we put them at the bars. We had a mailing list that was highly confidential, highly discrete. You guarded it with your life. Cause back then this was when you could still get in trouble for gay publications. So, we would meet in each other’s homes, and have the mailing parties where we would sit there and lick labels and put them on the things and we had to take them all to the post office and get them bulk mailing rated and mailed. It was a lot of work. 35:31 TF: I edited it for one year. 1985. At the end of ’85, I moved to Charlotte for one year for my career—and the day that I moved down there was the day the Challenger blew up, because as I drove down the interstate 77 everyone had their headlights on, and I didn’t know what had happened until I got to Charlotte and found out that the Challenger had blown up that afternoon. Okay, so, I was the editor of the gay newsletter for one year and then I moved to Charlotte for one year for my career, but my mother fell ill and my best friend fell ill. He had AIDS, she had breast cancer. So, I gave up my career and moved back here, to Roanoke at the time. I’m in Lynchburg now. But anyway, my career was, I went to VCU in Richmond, Virginia Commonwealth [University]. I got in a lot of trouble because in senior year of high school, my guidance counselor told my mother that I should not go to VCU because it was a bunch of faggots. And I got mad, and I said to her in front of my mother, “Oh honey, you haven’t heard the little rhyme? ‘Let’s all go to VCU where girls are girls and boys are too.’” [ES laughs] And she got pissed. And I did a gay hand gesture and she got really hot. So, I went to VCU! And that was where I was fag bashed, twice. Both times I was perfectly innocent. I was going to class and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. 37:05 ES: If you are willing to talk about it, how did those two incidences really affect you and change you as a person? 37:09 TF: Pissed me off! Made me gayer than ever! Screw them! Be damned if they’re going to beat me into the ground. Just like those damn kids in high school. You know, they had the nerve to push me into my locker and stroke me and say what they’d like to do to me but by God they wouldn’t touch me in public. And these people the same way. A bunch of damn cowards. Beat me up in an alley. I mean, like I said, the first time was bad. I mean my sister sent me money so I could get my face fixed because I didn’t want mama and daddy to know because they would have pulled me straight home. When I was in Richmond, gay wasn’t really out. And you know, you had to kind of figure out if there was anywhere to go. There were two clubs in Richmond that were gay. But it was real quiet. One was called Locklands which was a dance bar and that’s where everybody went on Saturday night. All the men went there, real cruisy. And there was another one that I cannot remember now but it was where I went my freshman year. It was a very small cocktail bar in downtown Richmond, and I had to walk there. That was scary and it took 15 �me forever to get there. I can’t think of the name of it. The reason I picked up on it, they advertised in one of the student newsletters and something about the ad struck me as really queer. I mean it was like cocktail glasses tipped to the side with bubbles coming out of the side. Something you wouldn’t put in a butch, you know, publication. But I though “that’s a queer bar,” and that’s where I went. But they were only around a year or so after I came to school. It was an older man, and it had only been around for years but then it closed, and then Locklands became the big one. But then there was the Broadway café on Broad Street, which was mostly lesbian, but they had drag shows one night of the week and that was tons of fun. And then when I was there, the Cha Cha Club opened up my senior year. It was an old bank building on Cary Street, and it was a mixed crowd. Gay, drag, straight, real avant garde, real fun. I mean, and that was pretty cool. 39:19 TF: But then I came back to Roanoke. I had a summer at Dartmouth after I got out of college. I got a fellowship and went to Dartmouth for a summer in costuming. I got homesick, came back to Roanoke instead of going to New York like I should have. But I came home. And that was where I really started letting it rip. I got my own apartment in Old Southwest for 150 a month? Or 200 a month? It was rough. It was the worst neighborhood. Whores, drugs, a woman got shot to death behind my car my first weekend there. Scared me to death. Oh, it was wonderful. It was the middle of night, and these drunks were fighting, and I was asleep. It was Saturday night, I had to go to church on Sunday. I heard this voice in the darkness yell [mimicking a high pitched voice] “by God if you were any sort of a man, you would shoot me!” And it got real quiet, then there was this [makes gunshot noise] and then this other drunk voice goes “by God he did!” So, I look out the window and it’s like the Wizard of Oz I can see a foot behind the bumper of my car and puddle of blood and I’m calling my mother at two in the morning on my rotary dial phone going [makes dramatic crying noise] “I want to come home!” And mama’s going “you picked it out, you paid the rent, you stay.” So yeah, it was cool. It was on 7th Street. Oh god, I used to remember the address, but I can’t now. 708 something. But, yeah, that was really cool. 40:34 TF: So that was my first apartment. I always had my own apartments. That was my vow. When I got out of college, my father had a rule. You had a college degree, you had three months to get out. And that was the rule. He didn’t care if you didn’t have any money or not. If you had a degree, by God you could get a job and get out of the house. So, I did. And I became a window dresser. And I worked for Miller & Rhoads. I worked for Thalhimers. I had my year in Charlotte at Ivey’s in the Carolinas. I worked for upper scale Southern department stores. That’s where the mannequins come from that are around my living room… 41:11 ES: [interrupting] And gorgeous. 16 �41:12 TF: In ball gowns and jewels. Yes, tres gay. So, window dressing was a job that a gay person could get into in Roanoke and do because there was the gay stereotype. Gay men have good taste. That is a huge stereotype. That’s why so many women want gay friends because gay men, they know makeup, they know hair, they know clothes, they know interiors. And when my first gay pride I went to in 1983 in Washington [DC], they had signs they were carrying [that said] “gay myth number one,” “gay number 8,” “gay number 15.” And one of them said “gay men have good taste.” And I just screamed because that worked. If you knew how to work it, it worked in your favor in Roanoke. Because a gay man would know how to do hair. A gay man would know how to dress windows. A gay man could be a florist, an interior designer. So, there were professions that you could be gay in and be safe. It was expected. 42:12 TF: So, I was a window dresser. I did mannequins. I did floral arrangements. I did interior settings. You know, I had a career doing that. And back then, you could have a career in that field in smaller Southern towns. Now, you can’t. All of that’s gone. I mean, it’s only in the big cities like New York or Philadelphia or Baltimore. I mean, it’s gone. Back then—people don’t realize—in small towns, even like Roanoke, there were department stores with big show windows, and they had mannequins and you showed the fashions. You did the accessories, you did the whole nine yards. And I had a background in fashion design, so I was used to designing clothes and I had a lot of models to dress for the fashion shows. I mean the girls would stand there naked with a panty shield and a pair of hoes and heels on and that was it. Didn’t bother me any. I mean I’m just pinning the muslins on, the whole nine yards, trying not to stick them in the breasts. But the male models were a bitch. They were the [mocking voice] “Oh I don’t want a queer looking at my junk.” And I’m like “shut up and just shut your mouth! That is not what you’re paid for. You’re supposed to be pretty and stupid. Now shut up!” You know, and I would tell them “And you better be quiet, because I got a straight pin in my hand baby and I’m fitting a Jansen on you and I will stick you in the dick!” So, you know, they learned real quick that I was a mouthy queen so leave me alone. So, in Roanoke that was an occupation I could do and be gay and get away with it. So, I was a window dresser, and I was very, very good at it. I had a good career going with it but then it went away. 43:42 TF: The next thing I went into was furniture sales because I had a very good eye and I could do interiors. So, I became a furniture salesman, and I would go to people’s homes for free and give them consultations and tell them what it should look like and what to do, and sell them furniture, and that went very well. Until I got married and moved up here, and then I started as an assistant to an interior designer, but her clients liked me and started calling me, so I lost my job. And this is a very small town, and I couldn’t get a job to save my soul once phone calls were made. All designers up here are married to doctors, lawyers. It’s all women. And I couldn’t get a job after that. So now, at the end of my life, I am a janitor! And I clean commodes and toilets at an elderly 17 �care facility. And let me tell you, old people are full of shit! I see it daily. I clean it up every…. ugh! It’s disgusting! But I do it. I’m an adaptor, I survive. My late grandmother raised me that Southerners bend, we don’t break. So, you do what you have to do. I mean, you come here, and I’ve got a pretty house with mannequins and ballgowns and jewels. You’d never dream that at 4:30 in the morning Tommy’s in his khakis and a work shirt scrubbing crap out of the toilet, but yessiry bob. That would be my message to y’all. Your life is never going to be what you think it’s going to be. I had dreams of glory when I was in college. I was winning fashion awards. I mean, I went to Dartmouth for a summer. I thought I was going to be it. But I got homesick, and I came home, and I was the one—my sister had left—and I was the one. You end up having to stay to take care of your parents. And I took care of my parents until both of them died. I took care of my best friend until he died. I took care of four other gay boys that died. 45:35 TF: I was in Roanoke when AIDS hit. And it was a fucking plague. It was called the gay cancer. Acquired immunization… Oh, what was it known as, it wasn’t even called AIDS back then; it was called the gay cancer. It hit Roanoke like a ton of bricks. Nobody knew what the hell was going on. All of a sudden people were sick. And the thing about AIDS, it was hitting people in all economic levels. Back when I was in the gay world in Roanoke, in the social scene, you had A gays and you had B, C, D, street trash. I was on the B level; I didn’t have money so I couldn’t travel with the A gays. The A gays were like wealthy hairdressers, business owners, things like that. They were usually discrete. They might have younger ‘toy boys’ if you want to call it that. They had beautiful homes. Some A gays, quite a few of them, were married with families but were not out at all. Their wives might have suspected things, but you didn’t say anything. But they had their guy friends, and they would go out of town. A gays mostly went out of town. They’d would go on vacations. They’d go to Washington or they’d go to the Bahamas, or you know, they and the guys. I wasn’t part of that circle. I didn’t have money. I had a lot of style, a lot of pizzaz, but I didn’t have any money. I wasn’t part of that set. So, I watched them with great interest. Then it was B level like me. Fun, young, no money but tons of style, lots of fun. Threw fun parties. That was my set. But I was also part of the political scene. A gays did not do politics. Nuh uh uh uh. No. Nothing that would blow the cover. Many gays in Roanoke would not invite me to their home or their parties because I was known. I was a known homosexual. Once you were known, it was like you made a lifestyle choice. You could either stay in the closet and get married and have kids and be quiet and be on the down low, like you know going to the public parks and picking up guys, shit like that. Or going out of town and doing guys. But that was a whole different world. Once you were a known homosexual, it was different. There were homes you were not allowed in. There were people that would not speak to you. It was different. And you paid for it. But I never minded because I was not going to be quiet. I was not going to be a hypocrite. I went to church every Sunday at my parents’ church but everybody damn well knew I was gay, and when I had my first boyfriend I dragged his ass to church with me. The preacher had a fit, but I dragged him to church with me. I mean I was gay. I didn’t see any point in trying to hide it. I didn’t see any point in trying to be a liar. I didn’t see any point in trying to be 18 �something I wasn’t. I was gay and either deal with it or to hell with you. And it cost me a lot, it really did. But I wouldn’t redo any of it because my father and mother raised me to be a gentleman and to always be proud of yourself and to never behave in a manner that would embarrass you. So, I was never drunk. I’ve never been drunk in my life. I’ve never had a beer in my life or a joint or anything. But I was gay, and I was proud of it. And I behaved with dignity and had boyfriends that were out with me. I didn’t hide out in the closet or sneak over to their apartment. Oh, hell no. They were with me. We would go to movie theaters. We had our heads up and we got called names but by God we were out there doing it. It was just a different world and I’m so proud now of many of the youth that I see. They don’t know what struggles it was to get where we are now. Like, marriage equality was not even dreamed of when I was starting out. I mean the thought of having a gay husband, oh my god! That was just beyond the pale. That, ugh, please. But yeah, as soon as we’re legal in the state of Virginia, within that month… 49:56 [Tommy’s husband enters the room and chats with Tommy and Ellasen briefly. TF then goes on to describe how he and his husband met.] 50:07 ES: When did you two meet? 50:09 TF’s husband: At a funeral. 50:10 TF: 2003. May the 8th at a funeral at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Roanoke. Yes. I remember the day, May 8th, 2003. We met at a funeral. He came from Lynchburg to the funeral. I was in Roanoke at the time living there. We’d never met, the church was packed, and he ended up sitting beside me because he couldn’t find a place to sit. And he had the ugliest shoes on I’d ever seen, and I told him so, and I knew he wasn’t an Episcopalian because he didn’t know the first damn thing about a prayer book [ES laughs]. After the funeral, he pursued me. 50:43 TF’s husband: I brought you a glass of wine. 50:45 TF: And I said, “I don’t drink!” So, then he went and got a glass of water and came at me and I said “I’m not thirsty.” So, then he came at me when I was talking to someone—oh, look at him shaking his head; see how discrete he is [gesturing towards his husband; everyone laughing]. You know what he said to me? “Where do you live?” and I said, “Up on the hill,” and he said, “Well, what are we waiting for?” That’s how we met. 19 �51:05 ES: [laughter] Oh my goodness, that’s an awesome story. 51:10 TF: He was very forward. 51:11 [TF’s husband mentions Kent’s grandmother] 51:14 TF: Oh my God. Kent was the boy, the only other serious relationship I’ve ever had. I was nine years older. Oh god, he was young [whistles]. Kent was maybe 18? We met at a Labor Day party at a gay man’s home. Kent was one of the prettiest boys I’ve ever seen in my life. I had just got back from a beach vacation. The last one I took was 1990, that tells you how long ago this was. So, I think that was 1988 I met him, ‘88 or ‘89. So anyway, we were at this Labor Day barbeque, these gay men, that was how it was done in Roanoke. It was a private event. And Kent, I didn’t know this till many years later, Kent had been getting around quite a bit, and the man that invited him to the party was the host and Kent and he had had some encounters. Well, the man’s other half was there. Kent didn’t know the man had another half. The other half didn’t know that his partner was fooling around. So, we were all eating lunch, and I said in my ignorance to Kent, “How do you know our host?” And Kent without thinking said “Oh, we’ve met a few times.” The partner was sitting two people down from him, and stopped eating, turned to him and said, “What the hell do you mean by that?” Woohoo! Fight on! [laughter] It was fabulous, oh it was wonderful. I had to meet Kent after that… 52:41 ES: [interrupting] Oh my gosh! 52:41 TF: Had to meet him. I thought anybody who could start a fight like that. And we ended up dating for several years. And I dragged Kent to my church, set the minister off, but I dragged him to church, I dragged him to family reunions. I mean we were out before it was out, you know? We were wearing rings. Oh God, that sent ‘em off. But I was queer, and I was proud, and Kent was young and stupid and didn’t know any better. So, I’m dragging him all over the place and we were together during his college years, and I went to his graduation—Roanoke College— but he dragged me to Thanksgiving at his family’s home in Buchanan, Virginia, which is the back of hell. And we’re in Buchanan, Virginia, and his grandmother Margaret who is a bitch, a Pentecostal bitch, mean as hell, sitting there at the table lunch, glaring at me the whole time. Kent was her favorite. She finally goes, “You’re gonna burn in hell!” And the table got dead quiet, and I smiled my nicest smile to her, and I said, “And I’ll meet you there, bitch” [laughter]. Well, yeah, that did it for that. We had to leave real shortly after that. She was choking on her 20 �damn gravy and potatoes. She had never been talked to like that. Never. So, yeah, I was mouthy. So… but the rest of the family liked me cause I was mouthy. 53:59 TF: Things still haven’t changed that much, kids. You know, this year my man and I have been together twenty-some years. He took me home to meet his family last year. We’ve been together forever, and he finally took me home. He’s not as advanced as I am in many ways. And he finally took me home to meet his family, and it was brutal. His brother, the brother’s wife and their children, were, oh god, cold as ice. Would not speak to me even when I was introduced to them. Turned and walked away. While the other cousins and all were fine, couldn’t have cared less. We sat there screaming and throwing food at each other and having a great time. But the point I’m making is, there are still many people and many parts—this was in Ohio, where it just simply still is not the thing. Where being gay is beyond the pale. His family is very religious like mine was, but my parents loved me and gritted their teeth and put up with it. His family is [whistles]. But it’s just to show you that you can be gay at any age, but still in this day and time, being gay is not accepted to many people and you have to have the courage to stand up. And even if you’re not standing there waving a flag and screaming “I’m gay,” I’m standing here with my husband with our wedding rings on and they know damn well what the deal is and I told him when you introduce me you either say, “I’m your husband,” or we’re gonna have a fight right in front of them. So, he had the balls enough to say, “This is my husband, Tommy.” He used to not be able to do that. 55:29 ES: Why do you think after so long… You know, you grew up through the scene in the ‘70s, that it’s now 2022 and we’re still facing these issues? 55:38 TF: Because America is the only nation in God’s world, the only democracy that’s based on morality. We were started by Puritans. We were started for religious freedom. So, to the vast majority—and I live in Lynchburg where Jerry Falwell’s school is, you know Liberty University, where kids if they’re openly gay get thrown off of campus, that’s still the deal. I mean, open homosexuals cannot teach there, they cannot attend school there. I mean we have friends who worked at Liberty and were thrown out when they got married, and it was found out. That was this last year, and they were young. They were young guys in their twenties. They got married and got thrown out. And they were alumni. America is based on morality. As long as someone can point to Leviticus or to one or two other places in the Bible, the letters of Paul, and say gay is sinful, it is an abomination unto the lord, then they’ve got an excuse. They used to justify slavery by the Bible. My grandfather used to quote it, it’s in Genesis. And they talk about the sons of Ham, the dark sons of Ham and how they would forever be slaves to the other tribes and all this crap. And my grandfather used to read that and he’d go [mimicking deep southern voice] “There right there. God is saying. God is saying the Black man is inferior and slavery is the way of the 21 �righteous.” And you’d sit there and go “oh my God.” I mean, he threw a drinks party the day they buried Martin Luther King. He had the TV on with that and was having the drinks party. Honey, let me tell ya, I’m from a different time. When I went to college in Richmond, I lived at the Chesterfield which was Richmond’s first high-rise apartment building, six floors high. But anyway, on the very first floor Robert E. Lee’s I think it was great great granddaughter lived there, Miss Lee. And every afternoon Miss Lee would take the air and she and her Black maid— she was the only person who lived on the first floor, it was the tea room, where everyone in the building ate, but she had the one apartment there—and when Miss Lee came through the lobby and this was the late ‘70s, we all stood for her and if you didn’t stand someone would smack you, and we all stood for that lady because she was Robert E. Lee’s great granddaughter, great great granddaughter. She was old as hell. But her Black maid and she would go to take the air. They’d go out and walk on Monument Avenue. When I was in Richmond, you used to see Black maids in their little outfits on Broad Street waiting to catch the bus to the west end to clean the houses. Now it’s Hispanic. You have to remember, Americans always have to have somebody to look down on. With whites, they came over, they looked down on the Indians, so they stole their land and killed them and put them on reservations. Then, when they got rid of the Indians, they didn’t wanna do the work on their plantations raising the cotton and the tobacco so they started kidnapping Blacks and bringing them over from Africa. You know, so they had someone to look down on. Well now it’s changed in the fact that now Blacks have won a lot of their liberties and civil liberties. So now who’s turn it is? Hispanics. “Keep ‘em out,” you know, “the wetbacks, keep ‘em out. They speak a different language.” And so now the jobs that Blacks used to have, that whites wouldn’t take, now the Hispanics are taking them. And it’s just, in America it’s a land of hypocrisy. There will always be someone to look down on. Always. 59:10 ES: So how did the segregation and prejudice kind of change the bar scene and the club scene? 59:18 TF: Oh god, okay. When I first started going to bars, you did not see a lot of Black gays, and god knows you didn’t see any lesbians. Women and men did not mix. The men had their bars, the women had theirs. And women had a lot easier time of it, I have to admit that, because in the South especially, a girl could have a girlfriend. You know, “me and my girlfriends are going out,” “me and my girlfriends are going here,” and nobody thought a damn thing of it. I grew up in church where there was spinster women that roomed together cause they didn’t have anybody so they’d room together and now I look back and go “hmm.” You know when you room together forty some years. But anyway, you know Miss so-and-so and Miss so-and-so roomed together. Women had it a lot easier because they could pass. Men like me who were flamboyant, we couldn’t pass, you know. We just couldn’t pass. Women had a lot easier time of it. There was a lot of prejudice in the gay community towards women. I can vividly remember having gay rights organizations and the guys didn’t want the girls in ‘em, you know. Didn’t want no ‘fish’ in the organization, and it was like “oh come on guys, we’re all gay. Get over it.” But it was like that, 22 �you know, they didn’t want that. And Blacks… that was, I won’t say it was much a gay thing as a white thing because this was the South. I didn’t see Blacks in gay clubs, and I went to school in Richmond which was a bastion of Southern civilization, and there were certainly no Blacks in the clubs there. Ever. Maybe it’s changed now, but yeah it was pretty segregated when I was coming along. And I saw the last gasp of it all. I’d say I saw the last gasp of the Old South in Richmond. Now you’ve seen most of it get toppled in 2018 with Monument Avenue coming down, and things like that. It’s a different world. I grew up in a family [where] my mothers’ side was very, very proud of their Southern heritage. Black people fought in the confederacy and one of them is in a history book and my mother’s family was very proud of that and it wasn’t a race thing then. Their thing was “these damn Yankees came down here and burned the houses and left us to starve, screw ‘em, get a gun, we’re going after them.” They could’ve cared less about Blacks because they didn’t own any slaves, but they sure as hell didn’t like the Yankees coming down here and kickin’ our asses. So, that’s how my mother’s family got involved in the war. It wasn’t a Black thing. It was a Yankee thing. Daddy told Mary Jo when she was going away to Norfolk that he would shoot her if she ever dated a damn Yankee. She needed to marry a Southern boy and she did, she did. It was a big deal. One of my cousins is married to a beautiful woman of color, but they did that back in 1990 when it was unheard of, and I can vividly remember going out in public with them to dinner, me and Kent, and you know my cousin and his wife, and oh god. I can remember it being very unpleasant, very unpleasant. I mean the world hopefully will change more, in many ways it has not changed. I mean, you know… I never asked you all, are you all heterosexual? 1:02:40 ES: I’m queer. 1:02:41 TF: Okay. You’re queer. 1:02:42 ES: Yeah. 1:02:42 TF: You’re straight [to other student in the room]? 1:02:43 Other student: Yeah. 1:02:44 TF: Okay. So you’re young. You all are what, in your twenties or something? 1:02:46 ES: Twenty-one. 23 �1:02:46 Other student: Twenty-two. 1:02:47 TF: I mean, do you all experience prejudice because of your sexuality? 1:02:52 ES: I do. Yes. 1:02:54 TF: Still? 1:02:55 ES: I’m very religious, grew up in a very religious household. 1:02:58 TF: Oh yeah. 1:03:00 ES: So it’s… I’ve kinda fallen into faith and falling into religion, and it’s been fighting with that, so that’s kinda where mine’s been. 1:03:10 TF: Religion can really hurt you. I was raised to believe in the love of Christ, that you know, all men are sinful, blah, blah, blah. And I was raised that by being gay I was picking sin, that I was choosing this, you know. And I kept telling mama, “No mama. I was born gay.” I said, “I’ve always wanted men. I’ve never wanted a woman.” And she’s like “No you choose that, that is your sinful nature” [scoffs]. So, as long as our country is based on religion and as long as people can get away with kicking your ass in the name of religion, it’s gonna be a fight for gay youth. Because their parents will have the best of intentions, but they won’t want their child to be gay, and that was where my family was coming from. It was sinful, you know. “Why would you choose that, it’s an abomination unto the lord,” and it’s like oh god almighty. So, hearing you say that amazes me that still it’s like that, but then again, my husband’s family last year. My God, we’re in our sixties, so... 1:04:12 ES: What would you say to queer youth now who are gonna potentially be facing things like this? 1:04:18 TF: Keep your head up, chin up, screw ‘em. Be yourself. Screw them, screw them, screw them. Do not give in. Now, I would say if you live in the backwoods, and it’s a matter of life and death, then you keep your mouth shut till you can get the hell outta there. Protect yourself. But if it’s 24 �you’re not gonna die, you might get the shit beat outta you like I did, but you know you’re not gonna get killed. Yeah, try to be yourself, try to set an example, try to be proud. I was just too dumb to know any better. You know, if I’d thought about it, I’d probably kept my mouth shut. But I didn’t know any better. I was always me and that was it. I would just tell kids, love yourself, take care of yourself, don’t be afraid to love other people, know that like straight people you’re gonna be hurt. Love is not easy, and you’re gonna be hurt. Know that gay love is different from straight love. Straight love is accepted by society; gay love in many ways is still not and you better be damn strong if you’re gonna be in a relationship and be out in public. You better be a strong person. I would tell gay youth don’t drink, don’t. That was the big crutch of my day. Drinking and drugging because people couldn’t handle the pressure of being gay and not accepted. I didn’t do it because I promised mama and daddy I wouldn’t, and I was just too damn bullheaded. I would’ve made a nasty drunk. You know, I was proud of myself, so, I would tell kids don’t use drugs and drink as a crutch. Be proud of what you are, be who you are, if you have to wait till you can get the hell outta town, then do it. I had to wait till I was, well… I say I waited until I was at college, but shit I was getting beat up anyway in Roanoke. I was known as a queer. It’s not gonna be easy and if I had kids, I would pray to God they would be straight so they’d have it easier. But at the same time if they were gay, I’d say, “Alright kid, just get your chin up and know that you’re gonna get your ass kicked, but you gotta keep going, don’t give up. You don’t get nothing by giving up.” 1:06:21 ES: Absolutely. And I guess my last question to kind of encapsulate everything… we talked about your childhood a lot and if you had the opportunity to go back and say something to your younger self, what would you tell that person? 1:06:47 TF: [Pause] I’m gonna put a condition on that. If there had been no AIDS in this world, I would’ve told my younger self, for God’s sake, be a lot more of a whore then you were, cause there’s a lot I didn’t do cause I was too scared to. If there were no AIDS, I’d just tell myself, for God’s sake experiment, go out there, have fun. But I was prissy. I was scared of diseases. You know, daddy told me horror stories of World War II where he watched these social disease movies where the sailor’s peckers fell off from social diseases, and he said he was a virgin for years after that. So, you know, I was scared of anything. But, if AIDS hadn’t been around, I would’ve told myself experiment, try things, don’t be afraid. Now having said that, what would I tell myself knowing that AIDS was around? Never give up. It’ll come out alright at the end, but you gotta keep fighting, ya can’t give in. Don’t give up. Don’t let the bastards whip ya. Because at the end, if you’re lucky, it comes out alright. 1:07:57 ES: Absolutely. 25 �1:07:58 TF: I’m sitting here in 2022 in a home with a legally married husband. My peers that died from AIDS back in the ‘90s, my friends that died of natural causes all through the years, none of them would ever have thought this was possible, that you could sit here with a wedding ring on your hand, that you could’ve gotten married in a mainstream church, that you can say, in public, “Oh this is my husband,” which I now say all the time. That would’ve been science fiction back when I was coming up. No one would ever have believed that. But I do think we have to be on our guard. I think we could lose that privilege. I think that Roe v. Wade will be overturned. I think that abortion will be outlawed again. Now, if people had to grow up here… What my mother, the story she used to tell of women who didn’t have an alternative, so you ended up going to a backstreet butcher is what they called ‘em. Mama told me stories of knitting needles, clothes hangers, stuff like that because “good girls didn’t get knocked up, honey.” So, if a good girl all of the sudden was pregnant you had to do something about it, and if your family didn’t have the money to send you to a doctor quietly, then you did whatever it took. Mama knew girls that died because infection set in. So, I think that we have to be on our guard. I think abortion’s gonna be overturned. I think the next thing on the agenda will be gay rights. I think gay marriage is a huge burr up the ass of conservative America. It drives them crazy. There are people in Lynchburg when they see me and Rodney out and they see our rings on, you know, you see their ears just lay back. There are people when I say “this is my husband,” I see them just [makes face], but they’ll be polite. You know, I have been called names here in Richmond, several times when Rod and I have been out in public. And I just grit my teeth and just, you know, because of him and his reputation, and his job up here, I have to be somewhat dignified, you know. Once you get married, you have to learn, you have to consider someone else besides yourself. It’s not all about you. And when you’re married to someone who has a certain position or certain job at a certain corporation, you have to grit your teeth and you have to bite your tongue, and you have to tone it down. Oh, those are three words I hate that I’ve heard my whole life, “tone it down.” I hate that damn phrase. Tone it down my ass! Get out of here So, you know, I’ve had to be polite to people in this house that just pissed me off. That I felt like a hypocrite, but because of my husband, I had to be gracious. 1:10:44 TF: You know, it’s just one of those things. That’s one thing I would tell kids. If you choose to be out, there will be a price to be paid. I would tell any gay kid that. It’s still that way. I don’t care how far they say we’ve come. You know, you get a lot farther in America in the business and professional worlds if you grit your teeth and get married and have kids and go on the down low. I had that opportunity. I dated a girl five years, we almost got married. My father adored her. She was gorgeous. And she was cool. She said as long as you screw guys I don’t care. She said “The first time you touch another woman I’ll kill you,” and I was like [whistles]. Daddy told me, he said “That’s a hell of an offer, take her up on it.” He said “your life will be a lot easier.” But I couldn’t do it because I had been raised that wedding vows were sacred. That you take someone for life in front of God and man and I couldn’t do that to her. I told her, I mean, oh it 26 �was a horrible… we cried our eyes out when we broke up, but I told her “I want you to have a man who loves you thoroughly, in bed and out.” I said, “it would eat you alive to know that I was always looking at guys, even if we had sex and had kids.” I would’ve loved to have children. My husband has a son. He was married for 20 some years. 1:12:00 ES: Wow. 1:12:01 TF: And has a son who now has a fiancé. It’s been different. Yes, I have a stepson. That feels strange, strange. 1:12:11 ES: Does it almost feel like you’re living like the part of you that always wanted to have children even though he’s older? 1:12:18 TF: It’s not the same. I would’ve dearly loved to have a child who would’ve had like my father’s eyes or my mother’s eyes. Someone that I could look at and see one of my parents who have been dead. Momma’s been gone 30 some years, and daddy’s been gone 15 or 16. I would’ve given anything to look at a child and see my mother’s face again. I mean that sorta thing. The fact that my sister is named after my mother and my grandmother, that sorta thing goes on and on. Now, this is a strange note. My sister is very religious. When she found out I was gay and I told her, I was 15, she made a decision not to have children because she thought that gay was hereditary—which it is, the genes, you know. You know. She thinks that being gay is an abomination to God and she never wanted to have an abomination on her. 1:13:10 ES: Wow. 1:13:11 TF: So, my sister has never had children, which has broken my heart. But she will not have children because she believes being gay is an abomination. 1:13:19 ES: How did that affect your guys’ relationship? 1:13:27 TF: [Pause] We love each other, and she’s very gracious to Rodney, but we’re not bosom buddies. We don’t visit each other very often. We have phone calls every couple of months, every four or five months. We might see each other at a family reunion. But we are not an active part of each other’s lives. 27 �1:13:55 ES: Well, is there anything else that you want to speak about, talk about? Anything at all? 1:14:02 TF: Is there anything you wanna ask me? I’m an old fag, you better be asking me. God knows how long I’ve got to go. 1:14:08 ES: I guess the one thing I did want to ask you and then this will be the last thing that I ask. 1:14:14 TF: I don’t care, ask away baby. 1:14:17 ES: I was very interested in kind of knowing what life was like after the tragedy of Backstreet Café? 1:14:24 TF: Alright. Backstreet. I’m trying to remember, my memory’s not as good. I think it was the early 1990s, early to mid... I would’ve been there that night, but I had another engagement and went to The Park later on. The man that was the shooter whose last name was Gay, had always been teased and tormented because of his name, and was determined to seek vengeance. The whole thing about Backstreet was he went to the wrong bar. He wanted The Park. And had been to another bar in downtown Roanoke. I’m trying to think if it was Billy’s Ritz or Alexander’s—a straight place—and asked directions to a gay bar. And ended up, as far as I remember, he was walking and ended up stopping at Backstreet because it was the first bar he came to and he did not realize The Park was two blocks further. That was where he was supposed to be. 1:15:19 ES: Wow. 1:15:20 TF: That was where he meant to go. But they gave him directions and he ended up stopping at Backstreet. That was a fluke. If he had gotten to The Park, it would’ve been a damn massacre. Because The Park was swinging in those days, baby. I was part of that. It was swinging. Instead he ended up at Backstreet and he shot a lovely young man, Danny, and killed him. A lovely boy. Danny bled to death in someone’s arms. He didn’t die immediately, but he bled to death. I had friends that were injured that night. I had a girl that grew up over the hill from me, in my childhood. Who lost I think it was two fingers of one hand. She was never the same after that and committed suicide. I had another friend, he was there that night, and he committed suicide down the road. 28 �The Backstreet massacre really brought to light a lot of damn ugliness because Ted Koppel and Nightline came to Roanoke to discuss the Backstreet massacre. They had Neff Powell, the Episcopal archbishop, was on the panel. They had some Baptists ministers and I think they had an educator. But anyway, it was heartbreaking because the majority of the audience and the people interviewed said there was nothing wrong with him taking out the trash. Getting rid of the faggots. It was a huge thing. And kids in high school, which I had really hoped would start coming out, I think that really stymied a lot of kids when they saw the hatred and the ugliness. You know it was not a positive experience and it scarred the people that were in that bar that night. It ended up causing deaths down the road from people that just couldn’t handle life anymore. You know, the one boy died that night and it caused a lot of pain and misery but beyond that it’s like a stone in a pond with the circles, the ripples. The out ripples went out into the community. And all of a sudden people were afraid again. It had been loosening up, you know. There was a lot of hope in the community, but it started tightening back down and the religious people got their oars in the water and then the kids started being scared again, you know, and it was… [sighs] of all the damn places in America, it had to happen in Roanoke, Virginia. But it could have been so much worse. If he’d made it to The Park, I can’t tell you how many people would have died. I can’t. Because he had enough ammo he could have taken out more people than the one guy he killed and the few that he hurt. 1:18:03 ES: So, Gay, the one who had shot [them], just recently passed away in prison. How do you think that kind of reacted to people who were there and people who knew each other like yourself? Did it bring up like old memories and kind of almost like reliving the situation? 1:18:23 TF: No. No, it’s in the past. It’s in the past. I would have hoped that we would’ve gotten farther down the road to equality and acceptance, but I don’t think we’re that much farther down the road. I think a lot people pay lip service—to be politically correct—but in their heart of hearts they still don’t like gay people and they wouldn’t want their child involved with one and they’d rather see gay people die. It’s just a harsh truth. And besides, you gotta remember you live in the South, the Bible Belt. But it’s equally ugly up North, you know. People just don’t talk about it as much. You can still, for years, you could still get away with being ugly and nasty and hateful to gays and even killing them. Because it was such a moralistic society and there were no laws to saves gay’s asses. I mean, we still don’t have proper safety nets for discrimination in housing, jobs. We don’t. I mean, if you keep your mouth shut and think of another reason, you can still deny a gay person the privilege of renting from you. You know, marriage equality. God! That’s been a fight from hell, and I think we’re gonna lose it. I mean, as long as we’re a faith-based country, you’re always gonna be able to discriminate and get away with it. Because it’s part of your religion and we believe in religious freedom. 29 �1:19:49 ES: So what specifically or like what kind of ripple effect do you think would have to happen for there to be change? And how long do you think that would take? 1:20:05 TF: [Pause] I can’t answer that because I would have thought that gay people being shot and massacred would’ve changed things, like the Pulse night club, in Florida. But it hasn’t. You can still get away with killing a gay person or beating the shit out of ‘em. A straight boy can get away with beating the hell out of a gay guy if he goes “He made a pass at me!” You know, it’s just that way. It’s just that way, and gay people can’t claim the market on bigotry and oppression. Women still face horrendous fights every day of their lives. I mean, you were probably too young for this, but I’m trying to think, the Supreme Court nominee, Clarence Brown [Clarence Thomas]. Was it Anita Hill? That huge battle, she was a legal assistant or something and he sexually harassed her and she brought it to court and testified at his hearing for the Supreme Court and they still ignored her and put him on the Supreme Court. That was an outrage! Then, he tried to paint that woman as being a stupid bitch. She was brilliant. She had a legal degree. She was no fool. I mean, but [shrugs] she was a woman. She was a Black woman. You know, and the thing that got me so pissed was he was a Black man! And they still treated her like that! His own wife came out against her. I was like [gestures questionably]. And it’s still that way. I’m looking now at the situation in Ukraine, which horrifies me. We should be helping them and we’re not. But one thing that people don’t realize is when Putin takes over the Ukraine, all gay rights will instantly be done away with. Gay people will instantly be imprisoned. I mean, you can’t be gay in the USSR, or Russia as it’s now called. You can’t be gay in Russia. I mean, there are stories every day of atrocities, gay youth and all. You’re arrested, you’re put in prison for immorality, and as soon as they get the Ukraine. Ukraine has civil liberties for gays. They had equality. And I mean the gays there, I would be trying to get the hell out as fast as I could go because once the Soviets get their hands on you, you’re gonna be imprisoned. And it’s not a damn thing you can do about it. 1:22:28 ES: Absolutely. 1:22:29 TF: I mean look at the African countries. To Africans, the number one religion—European religion—that has been brought to them is Catholicism. And as a result of that, African nations, with strong Catholic heritage, view gayness as a sin and they have horrible punishments for it. Horrible! I mean, right now, the Episcopal Church is being torn apart because the Episcopal churches in Africa do not want gay clergy. Do not want gay marriage. Do not want gay acceptance. 30 �1:23:07 ES: How has your religion been through your life with being out and gay and growing up religious and seeing all of the things that are going on around you? 1:23:17 TF: Okay. I was a Presbyterian for many, many years. That’s the way I was born and bred, that was my heritage. Through mother’s side of the family, we were purebred Pres. And I can vividly recall, before I left the Presbyterian church, for about five, six years in a row, I would be nominated every year from the floor by the Congregation to be an elder. And every year, the pastor would squelch it, because you didn’t put a gay man on the session. And that used to enrage me because my fellow congregants thought enough of me that I was a Sunday school teacher. I was a youth group leader. You know, I did all these things with kids and all and they trusted me and, yeah, I had a boyfriend, and we were in a monogamous relationship. He came to church with me. And yet by being honest and all, I was denied a place at the table. That used to enrage me. The Episcopals are not that much more liberal. I have a friend who is now an openly gay man, in a relationship, he’s not married. But he has been asked to serve on the vestry of his church, which is huge because he’s openly gay. So, we’re making a little bit of progress. 1:24:24 ES: Absolutely. 1:24:25 TF: Presbyterians not so much. Episcopals are trying. Catholics, no way! Uh, uh! Pentecostals, oh hell no! 1:24:33 ES: How do you feel about Southern Baptists? [laughter] 1:24:35 TF: Now, Southern Baptists, when I was growing up, Southern Baptists were cool. As long as you kept your mouth shut, and your zipper shut around the church, they would kinda overlook things. If you went to church on Sunday, paid your ties. But then, it went all to hell. When, as my mother said, “When you gays started pushing,” you know? But I was like, “Why shouldn’t we push Momma? Why shouldn’t we have a place at the table?” I said “You raised me!” I said, “Think about that. You raised me with my morals and I still turned out gay!” You know that used to burn her ass up. Daddy used to tell Momma all the time [mimicking deep southern voice] “He’s queer, it’s from your side of the family, Jo!” Daddy didn’t know he had at least five gay people on his side of the family and none that I could find on Momma’s. And she’d always go, “Keep your mouth shut, you’ll kill him. Don’t say a word.” 31 �1:25:33 ES: At this point, what would you, if you had the opportunity to also see your mother and father again and show them everything you have built and have done, what would you like to tell them or hope that they would tell you? 1:25:47 TF: I’m okay. It turned out okay. Nobody killed me. I’m fine. I got a husband, we’re monogamous. I ain’t burned the house down yet. We still got our jobs. You know, I would tell them “Don’t worry, it’s okay!” You know, I think that’s what they were so scared of. Because they knew about one of the fag-bashings and I mean, they were so terrified. Momma used to tell me all the time, she said “Now, son, one of these days after I’m gone, there will come a time, like was in the war.” She said “They’re gonna come for y’all.” She said “They’re gonna get you ‘cause you’ve run your mouth all these years and pushed.” And I said “That might be true.” She said “I just want you to know, they’re gonna come after ya’ll again.” She said, “Now we wanted you to be safe, but you kept running ya mouth. They’ll get you.” And I said “I know. I won’t back down, Momma. I’ll stand up for myself.” She used to worry about that all the time. I remember when AIDS really hit. Ronald Reagan was Governor in California. And he wanted to take all the AIDS patients and all the gays and put ‘em on… I wanna say Alcatraz. It was an island there in California, out in the bay, and he came out in public and said that we need to put all of ‘em together. Put ‘em all in the same place. Get that sickness all together, they can be sick. And a lot of people still feel like that. I suppose if you ask Mitch McConnell, he wouldn’t be too gay-pro. 1:27:29 ES: I’d have to agree with you. 1:27:30 TF: Yeah, there’s a lot of ugliness still out there. You can do the easy thing and hide. Marry a straight person, have your kids. But I tell you if you did that, by God, if one of your kids says “I’m gay,” then you back them up. Don’t you dare give them shit! You know, have the guts to back that kid up and say… You might not have to come out to them, I know it might kill ‘em! But you can tell that kid “Okay, I’m with ya.” That’s what enrages me so much when I know gay people in the closet that talk against gay people. I’ve been spit in the face at gay parties before and been told [mocking deep voice] “Because of fags like you, it makes it harder for fags like us!” And then the same damn people end up benefiting from the fight of people like me. They get their marriage equality. They get their rights. But they didn’t have the balls to fight for it and that just pisses me off. I mean, that burns my ass up. How dare you. You know, you fought against us that were out, and denigrated us, and spoke against us in public. But yet down the road, you get to benefit from our fight and that just burns me up. You know, I’ve been at parties where I got spit in the face and told by a church person, “Cause of fags like you it makes it 32 �harder for people like us!” And then damned if he didn’t get married to his partner of thirty-some years! I mean that just burns me up. Rod’s always like “You gotta let it go. You gotta let it go!” and I’m like [scoffs]. You know? Gay people can be their own worst enemies. 1:29:03 ES: Absolutely. 1:29:03 TF: Can be their own worst enemies. So, what else baby?! 1:29:09 ES: Um, I think my last question that I have is, how would you like to still be involved in activism and what would you love to do now to like be back in the scene? Or would you want to go back in the scene? 1:29:28 TF: [Pause] For the tape’s benefit, the man is thinking. He is pondering. 1:29:44 TF: [Pause] I’m in my sixties. My time has come and gone. It’s up to the young people now to kick ass. People like me should be used as reference points by the young. Maybe we can steer them. Maybe we can help them not make the mistakes we made. Maybe we can tell them who to watch out for and be careful around that, you know, might turn around and stab you down the road. We have experience. It’s like an old hooker training a new one. You know, you’ve been around the block. My time has come and gone. I did my bit. I fought. You know, I don’t have any regrets. I paid my dues. And I got the rewards. I reaped the rewards in the end. The marriage equality thing especially. I think back to when I had friends who had AIDS and they’d be in the hospital in Roanoke and the nurses and doctors wouldn’t come in the room. They’d put the tray on the floor and kick it through the door to my friends. They wouldn’t even come in the room. They put caution tape across the doorway. They made you wear this whole outfit and gloves to go in there [background noise from the other room]. I mean, people with AIDS were treated like they had some bizarre disease from the moon. You know? Kids nowadays don’t realize that. I mean, there are now medicines and antivirals and things like that. Back then there wasn’t anything of this, and I think kids should look to people like me and say, “okay, you went through this, you saw it, so what should we try to do to make it better?” You know, use people like me as reference points. You know, we might not be technologically savvy, but we’ve lived. 1:31:40 TF: Would I get re-involved in the movement, probably not. I’m old, I’m tired. You know, I’m cleaning toilets at 4:30 in the morning. Truly, when you’re young is when you need to be kicking ass, when you’ve got the strength and the heart, and you haven’t been kicked a lot. That’s when 33 �you go. That’s when you don’t have enough common sense to know what might be different. You’ve still got that boldness, that dream. You’ve got your dreams. I’d say the young people are the ones to move forward. Young peoples are the ones to fight for marriage equality protection. The young people need to realize that if they don’t keep their damn eyes open, they’re going to lose it. I mean, this is not an accepting society and kids need to know that. I think a lot of gay youth take it for granted that they’re going to have all these privileges when they get older. Uh uh. They can be revoked in a heartbeat. That’s a democracy. You can vote on it. And I just think you know young people need to keep their eyes open. They need to be on guard. You never know marriage equality might be revoked. It could happen. People like me will probably be grandfathered in because we’re already legally married and recognized. Young people won’t have the opportunity. I really think that people need to keep their eyes open and watch out. And for straight women, I would say Roe v. Wade, fight for that. Because it’s coming and it’s coming soon. I mean, if the way the Supreme Court is going, they’re going to revoke Roe v. Wade in the next five years. And after they knock that down, it’ll be marriage equality. That will be next because the pendulum is swinging back to the right, and it’s swinging hard. 1:33:30 ES: Absolutely. 1:33:31 TF: We have a president in the White House that has no balls, because he can’t. Because he has a Congress against him, because he cannot find the votes, because there is no more bipartisanship. You’re either this way or that way. People don’t work across the aisle anymore. America is a polarized society. You should see that with all the race problems that have now erupted that we worked so hard to put behind us. My mother was a civil rights person. She was with Church Women United, and she was fighting to integrate the churches in Roanoke. We used to get calls in the middle of the night to burn the house down. Daddy was petrified. I mean, but my mother was a quiet woman of faith, and she didn’t back down. I was so proud at her funeral, here at a white church, there’s a whole row of old Black ladies and they had fought with Mama for Civil Rights, and they were so proud of mama because she was one of the few white women that would go with them, and they showed up for her funeral. And I was so proud of that. I mean, it’s never gonna be easy. As long as we have morality in this country, they can beat us over the heads with it. You just got to be strong, and you just got to believe in your dreams. 1:34:41 ES: Absolutely, Well, thank you so much, this has been amazing. Honestly an honor to talk to you and we thank you for everything and all your words. 1:34:54 TF: I have no children. This will be the legacy I leave. 34 �1:34:58 ES: Well, I think you definitely have an amazing one to leave. So, I’m excited to show this and have this around to people. 1:35:08 TF: I’ll be curious to see the outcome. They’re either gonna say, “What a tired old queen,” or they might actually say “He might have a point or two.” So, I do thank you for being a guest in my home. I’m very honored you drove an hour up to talk to me, and I hope to God in all my ramblings there’s been something you can take with you that will be of use. 1:35:27 ES: Oh, absolutely. 1:35:31 TF: And that was Tommy Feazell, and I’m so glad that you came up here today. Thank you very much. 1:35:33 ES: Thank you. [END] 35 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Tommy Feazell Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview with Tommy Feazell Interviewer: Ellasen Spangler Interviewee: Tommy Feazell Date: February 26, 2022 Location: Private residence Total Duration: 1:35:33 Transcription prepared by: Amanda Fox, Abbie Lewis, Samantha Meyer, and Adam Reedy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26 February 2022 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tommy Feazell, Ellasen Spangler, Amanda Fox, Abbie Lewis, Samantha Meyer, and Adam Reedy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FeazellTommy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/6511/LamphierLisa.1.MP3 28bad28c58a46352e3797fc278f38b0f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/19/6511/LamphierLisa.pdf 90858562f0232110a551abeeac01ad90 PDF Text Text Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Oral History Initiative Interview with Lisa Lamphier July 17, 2023 Interviewer: Katie Stueckle Interviewee: Lisa Lamphier Date: July 17, 2023 Location: Williamson Road Public Library, Roanoke, Virginia Transcription prepared by Katie Stueckle Total 34:09 Index: 00:00 Introduction and childhood in Boston (1950s-1960s), coming out 02:52 Leaving home, finding communities around the country (1970s) 05:15 Moving to Roanoke in 1981 06:47 Sources of community in Roanoke, including clubs (The Park) and First Friday 08:32 An older lesbian community at Backstreet Cafe 10:09 Lesbian dating scene in Roanoke in the 1980s 14:11 Wedding at The Park in 1984 15:30 Memories of First Friday 17:06 Life changes after breakups and the end of First Friday 19:39 Relations between gay male and lesbian communities 20:32 Difficulties of modern lesbian socializing, losing old friends 23:42 Online dating 25:25 Legalization of same-sex marriage, responses in Roanoke 29:16 Reflections on lesbian connections in the 1970s 33:05 Effect of the internet on socialization 00:02 KS: This is Katie Stueckle interviewing Lisa Lamphier for the Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project. We're at the Williamson Road Public Library on July 17, 2023. Lisa, can you tell me about where you grew up? 00:17 LL: I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. 1 �00:22 KS: What was your early childhood like? 00:34 LL: I don't know how to describe it. 00:38 KS: Have any siblings? 00:39 LL: Yeah. I have– had– a sister and two brothers. 00:53 KS: As you were growing up, when do you think you first realized that you were gay? 00:57 LL: Oh, probably around the age of ten. [laughs] Just now I can… I officially came out when I was thirteen. I think that's when a lot of people come out is right around thirteen. That's when they– the other girls– are noticing boys and I'm noticing the girls. I started really struggling with my feelings around the age of twelve. But thirteen I knew it. I was just like, okay, that's who I am. 01:32 KS: Did you come out to yourself? Or did you immediately also come out to other people? 01:37 LL: Well, it's hard to remember. It sort of happened gradually. There were kids at school that were teasing me and calling me a lesbian. And one day I just said, yeah. At which point I met the other kids that were lesbians and started going steady with Frankie. [laughs] And we would kiss in the hallway, just to upset people. And it's funny too, because we all sat… we didn't really talk about being gay, but we all sat at the same lunch table. So I don't know. I mean, we were kids. 02:33 KS: [laughing] Some things never change. 02:34 LL: You don't say nobody takes us seriously. But there was this one boy, Lenny, that, you know, pretty good friends with sat at the lunch table. And years and years later, I ran into him and he was just like, this tall, beautiful gay guy. [laughs] 2 �02:44 KS: When did you end up leaving Boston? 02:52 LL: Well, let me see. I left and came back. I left Boston– I came back to Boston a couple of times. I left home when I was fifteen and I went to New York City. I was essentially kicked out for being gay. So I went to New York City, figured that was the place to go, but I didn't stay there. I ended up going on to Providence, Rhode Island where I lived for about a year, and then I came back up to Boston. And I was back in Boston for about a year, and then I went out to Iowa City. And I went from Iowa City up to San Francisco, back to Iowa City, then to Des Moines, and from… Des Moines back to San Francisco. And then from San Francisco back to Boston. [laughs] And then from Boston to here, and this was the last stop. I was twenty-four. I was fifteen when all that started. I was twenty-four when I moved to Roanoke. 04:15 KS: And you were able to find community, other lesbians in all of those places? 04:21 KS: Yes, yes. Everywhere I went there were huge, tight knit, friendly, lesbian communities, much friendlier than they are now [laughs]– no, seriously, I went to Des Moines and I did not know a soul there. But I decided I wanted to be… I was in Iowa City and I decided I wanted to be in a bigger city so I just packed up and went to Des Moines, did not know one person there. Found the club, walked into the club, a woman came up to me and said “You're new here.” And I said, yeah. She said, let me introduce you around. And I mean, instantly, I had a community, I had friends. 05:11 KS: What brought you to Roanoke? 05:15 LL: Well, the girlfriend I had at the time was from Virginia, she was from Norton, Virginia. And she was kind of wanting to come back here to be closer to her family. But I was the one that was really pushing for the move. I was looking for, you know, get out of Boston, find some other place, I wanted to buy a house and you know, things that I wasn't going to be able to do up there. So we actually came down here and investigated Roanoke a couple years before we moved here. So that would have been… we moved here in ‘81, so that would have been… late ‘70s. And we didn't… we weren't here long enough to really find the lesbian community or anything. But we did things like, [laughs] I went to the YWCA of all places and asked them “where are the lesbians” and they said, “Oh, well there's these couple clubs down here.” And I'm like, oh, okay, 3 �and I checked- we checked- Gay guide you know, back then there were lots of periodicals and stuff that kind of networked people together, so we knew it would be okay here. 06:44 KS: Do you remember what those clubs were that they directed you to? 06:47 LL: No. By the time we came down here The Park was booming. 06:51 KS: And you06:52 LL: I think The Last Straw… I think they said The Last Straw and another one. But I don't remember anymore. 07:03 KS: And when you arrived here, like, permanently in ‘81, where did you go looking for community and lesbians? 07:14 LL: The Park, yeah, we went to The Park. We weren't there a lot because we were in a little monogamous couple and she didn't want us to have friends ‘cause friends make you break up [laughs] but whenever like, we would have visitors come– we had friends that would come visit us and we'd all go to The Park as a group. But it wasn't really till we split up that, you know, we started really connecting with other… with community. So we started going to The Park and going to First Friday and meeting other people. 07:57 KS: Where do you think most of your community really came from? Like where do you feel like you met the most friends? 08:14 LL: The Park. 08:19 KS: And do you have any particular stories from those, those friends from the club that you remember? 08:32 4 �LL: Well… I feel funny telling these stories. [pause] There used to be an older crowd or women that hung out at Backstreet, I remember that. And I went in there one day and got a cup of coffee. I didn't drink, I quit drinking when I was twenty, had been in the club since I was fifteen, I needed to quit drinking. [laughing] So I'm sitting at the bar with my little cup of coffee and Big Anne was hanging out with this group of older women. She was younger than them, she was… late thirties, I believe. And this was summer of ‘83. Anyway, she came over and started talking, at some point she said, so you got a butch? And I said no. And she said, you do now. And I was like, thinking okay… but she wasn't really the one I wanted, but she claimed me. So she went around and ‘you don't touch, that one’s mine’. Yeah, that's what dating looked like forty years ago. [laughs] 10:06 KS: Do you feel like that was a lot of your dating experience? 10:09 LL: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much she just, you know, ran off- ran off the other– and you gotta you gotta kind of picture this: I was in my twenties, I was drop dead gorgeous, you know, I'd go into the club and all the heads would turn and, you know, I don't miss that. But because you know, it attracted… it was not a nice thing to say, but it attracted all the assholes. You know, the ones that wanted the pretty girl. And I loved Big Anne, I did. I loved her. I miss her a lot. She died fifteen years ago. But yeah, we practically– and she was the bouncer at The Park. [laughs] I forgot that part. She was the bouncer at The Park. She was a really good bouncer because she was crazy. Some guy pulled a gun and she said you better hope that thing made- is made of chocolate because I’m gonna make you eat it. [laughs] But yeah, back then in ‘83 I practically lived at the club there all the time, I loved to dance. And a couple of years later, I got with Nancy. I met her at the club. She was a one night stand that got out of hand. I was living in my own place, and really not wanting to get into another relationship. 11:57 LL: But I had brought Nancy home. I had done that a couple of times before. And she'd always got up and left. And this time she was like, so wanna go to K&W flea market? [laughs] And the next thing I knew, you know, we're buying a house and, and she was a bit of a social bunny. And we were, let's see, we were together for six years. We were socializing, I counted at one time, we were socializing with fifteen other couples and an assortment of singles. And nobody stayed single very long. And it was you know, the couples all didn't necessarily know each other. But I mean, we knew a lot of people. I look back now and I just think, wow. 13:06 KS: Do you feel like that group of people congregated at your place? Were there other places that you spent a lot of time with that group? 5 �13:14 LL: Yeah, I mean, we kind of went to each other's homes. It's kind of like what couples did, you know, couples that socialized with couples… we'd have cookouts and Superbowl parties and what have you and like… some of the couples we met at the club, some of them we just met through other people or Nancy met them at work, some of them we met at First Friday and… I dunno, I don't know what else to say about that. 14:01 KS: Your wedding at The Park. Do you want to talk about that? 14:11 LL: Oh! Okay, yeah, Big Anne and I got married, we had like a wedding and a… we had an Episcopal priest at the wedding, that married us, and Dale let us use the bar like, before hours and we had this beautiful wedding. And… that marriage didn't last very long. I had to leave. 14:58 KS: Was that the- the ceremony itself, was it in like, the bar or the basement of the bar? 15:05 LL: No, it was in the bar. 15:10 KS: What year? 15:16 LL: ‘84. Or it might have been ‘83. No, it was ‘84. Yeah. I can’t remember the exact date anymore, but it's ‘84. 15:30 KS: And then, I mean, also in the 80s, First Friday was active, and you've– you did some things with them. About how frequently do you feel like you went to those events? 15:41 LL: Well, they had like a once a month thing. And I usually went– not always, but usually. I went to the retreat every year. 15:54 KS: Are there any particular stories that you would like to share from those events? 6 �16:07 LL: I can't think of anything. 16:14 KS: All right. And then… First Friday, stopped at the end of the ‘80s-ish. Do you remember what that was like? The end- the end of that organization? 16:33 LL: No, not really, because it seemed like it’d just kind of fizzled out. I was disappointed when they stopped having the retreat. And when there was no more newsletter. [pause] But my life had completely changed by then. So I wasn't really that involved in First Friday anymore. 17:06 KS: When you say your life had completely changed, what do you mean by that? 17:09 LL: Nancy and I split up. And I went and bought my own house, and where I'm still living for the past- it’s been the past 31 years. And, you know, once I was like, no longer part of this couple, I wasn't really part of that whole social scene neither. So you know, it was kind of starting over from scratch. 17:41 KS: In starting over, how did you find new people? 17:47 LL: Same way I found before, going to the club. 17:49 KS: Back to the club? 17:51 LL: Yeah. 17:52 KS: And you were able to find more community? New people? 17:55 LL: Yeah. Yeah. And there were always new people, you know, people that had just moved here or had just come out. The first woman I dated after Nancy was in the process of divorcing her husband. And they were like best friends. You know, I'd be hanging out at her house. And when 7 �he got off work, he'd come over and sit and we'd- the three of us would be sitting there watching the news together and then he’d finally say, “well, I guess I'd better get home, I’ll see you later.” And he'd go home to his girlfriend, [laughs] you know, and she'd say, yeah, yeah... she said, “we were married for years, but really, he's just my best friend.” So that was Lydia. [pause] So yeah, but I never- it was never like it was before. Because after that, I didn't really get into another established couple. Not for… ten years. 19:19 KS: Were there any other organized groups that you were a part of in that time? 19:24 LL: Let me think… no… no, not really. 19:39 KS: And kind of in- in those decades, 80s, 90s, do you feel like your community circle included, like gay men? Or were you fairly set with a group of lesbians the whole time? 19:57 LL: Mostly lesbians. I have had a few gay male friends here and there that, you know, never anything real close or- I recently, I had a gay male friend, recently this past few years, because we worked together, but he just passed away last year, so I don't have him anymore. 20:32 KS: In your perception, how do you feel like the gay man and lesbian communities in Roanoke interacted over the years? 20:42 LL: I don't know. I mean, I think it kind of depends on- on the people, but you know, I've always seen that there seems to be, there seemed to be, you know, a lot of interaction between– at least friendliness between– gay men and lesbians. 21:09 KS: And then, in the last 20 or so years, what's it been like dating, finding community, being gay in Roanoke? 21:22 LL: I don't know because I'm not a real social person, myself. I aged out of the club. I mean, I stopped going when I was… before I was forty. And like, I'm sixty-six now. I'm trying to remember… I think, my ex wife and I, when we got married, we went to The Park once. And 8 �from what I understand The Park isn't what it used to be. It's not… honestly don't understand how lesbians socialize now, like where do y'all meet? How do you meet up? 22:07 KS: What has your community, like– where have you been finding people in the last couple years? 22:18 LL: I haven’t. There are the people that I've been in my life forever. I mean, I've got Theresa that I've known for close to fifty years now. I’ve got Anna that I've known for 35 years. I've known Donna for 25 years. And then Teresa's wife, Allison's been on the scene for 30 years. And… there's my ex wife, who I've known for… I guess, ten years… and that's it. It's just… but I used to have a lot more friends but you know, they die. Nancy died last year. Big Anne’s long gone. Lydia died. And then, you know, there's been a few that I've just kind of lost touch with. I used to have a whole lot more friends. 23:34 KS: What do you think the future of gay community looks like in Roanoke? Whether for you or for the younger generation? 23:42 LL: I have no idea. [laughter] I don't really understand how it's done now. I mean, everything is online. It's like I'm dating online now. And I've done that before, I met two of my girlfriends online. But that was like twenty years ago. And there's good things about that and there's bad things. The good thing is that you have privacy, because, like, Big Anne couldn't have claimed me [laughs] if I had met her on a dating site. You know, she wouldn't be able to interact with the other people and run the other women off. Like dating sites, you have private conversations with people. When you met people at The Park, it was like you were in a fishbowl. No privacy, and everybody's talking and everybody knows what everybody is doing. [laughs] So you know, it's not all bad, it's like there's good and there's bad in that. But I don't really understand how it works now, like how younger lesbians, how they connect, how they– or do they even need to? I mean? 25:05 KS: We can talk about that later. [laughs] And are there any things that you feel like I haven't asked you about that you're interested in talking about? 25:20 LL: Let me think… not really. You know, I feel like I ought to be able to contribute more to this but– I don't know, I can tell you about my marriage. 9 �25:41 KS: If you would like to. 25:43 LL: Judy and I were the first, the first same sex couple to get a marriage license in Roanoke. 25: 50 KS: Really! 25:51 LL: We were on the six o'clock news. And if you Google my name, you can find a video of us being interviewed. [laughter] 26:01 KS: Oh, famous? 26:03 LL: Yes, yes, that's what I've– and I was really shocked because every other- every other place. People were like, lined up at the courthouse, and they were celebrating and it was like this big deal. We got to the courthouse, and we just sat there in the car waiting for anybody else to arrive. We were the only ones. And I said, “well, I guess everybody got married in another state.” [laughter] Well, we were getting ready to get married in another state. I mean, we were making the travel arrangements and everything. And suddenly, it was announced that it was legal here and we’re like, oh, I don't have to go to Maryland. I can just go downtown! So that's what we did. 26:53 KS: And you were on the six o'clock news for it… first same sex marriage license in Roanoke. 26:58 LL: Yes. And I felt funny about that. Because I felt like– I mean, we had been dating for a year. And here they were interviewing us and I'm thinking this shouldn't be us. This should be like one of these long-term couples, like a couple that's been together for forty years, and they're finally able to get that marriage license. 27:21 KS: How long had you two been together at that point? 27:24 10 �LL: We'd been in– for a year. I mean, we'd been dating for a year. And you know, we, we've been engaged. And I mean, she started asking me like two months in to marry her and I was like, no, I don't even know you. And then like, time would go by and she'd ask me again, and I’d go, no! I think finally she said, “when are you going to marry me?” And I said, okay, I'll marry you. So, yeah, but we had originally planned to go out of town and get married somewhere else where it was legal ‘cause it wasn’t legal here. We figured, well, eventually, the ball would roll in this direction and then we'd already be married and I think that's what a lot of women did. They just went somewhere else and got married. But to this day, I don't really understand why we were the only couple at the courthouse and then I thought, well, maybe the others will arrive later. I found out later that there were only like three other couples that day. 28:39 KS: The other same sex couples, or in general? 28:40 LL: Same sex. I mean, yeah, there were only like three other same sex couples that showed up that day. 28:59 KS: Well, I'll ask again. Is there anything else that I haven't asked about? 29:16 LL: No, I don't guess so. I lived here for forty-some years and I still feel like I'm not really from here. So I don't know anything about this place. [laughs]. But, you know, I came out in the ‘70s. And, wow, that was a time to be a lesbian. I was dating this woman who actually came out in the 1950s. And she was living in rural North Carolina in the 1970s. She was actually passing as a man. She had took her girlfriend and– supposedly she was going to be losing her children for being gay. So she took her girlfriend and all the kids and moved to rural South Carolina, where she passed as a man and everybody just thought they were family. And she got a job managing a gas station. She managed to meet other lesbians in rural North Carolina, because she subscribed to a newsletter. There were hundreds of them back then. And I asked her which one it was, and she couldn’t remember. And I’m thinking, well it might have been the Ladder or the Well or you know, one of those. I don’t know, ‘cause she couldn’t remember. But, she said that she got a visit from the FBI because she was on that mailing list [laughs]. 31:07 LL: But that’s what I’m saying about the 1970s, it was just all of the– it was– I think it was like this lesbian explosion. I’m sure it had been building up, you know, I’m sure this started right after World War II. But the ‘70s is when like, the whole club scene and the social networks were 11 �so strong and so explosive, I mean, like I said, as a teenager I could go anywhere and meet other lesbians instantly. I miss the ‘70s. [laughs] 31:51 KS: What do you think changed that? 31:57 LL: I don’t know. I think that, social acceptance, it’s like… I think that’s part of it, but I also just think that’s where the world was then. We had– a lot of things were exploding, you know, like civil rights and you know, people were getting– feminism– you know, people were becoming conscious about things and people were like, networking and we didn’t have the internet yet [laughs] so we were actually out there talking to each other, you know, instead of doing this [laughs]. 32:43 KS: Fair enough. 32:46 LL: Yeah, I mean, you know like every time you turned around there were like, gatherings for this, that, or the other. 32:57 KS: Yeah, the internet has definitely changed the way a lot of people communicate. 33:05 LL: I think there’s a whole lot less real-life socializing. You know, ‘cause like, when I went to Des Moines I found like, this instant lesbian community but I also found other things there, like a food co-op where people were, you know, meeting up and exploring vegetarian cooking and, you know, this kind of... It’s like, you know, I just don’t see a lot of… connection anymore. 33:53 KS: Yeah… I think you’re probably right. [laughs] Well, I’m basically out of questions so… 34:01 LL: Okay. 34:02 KS: It's been lovely interviewing you [laughs]... thank you so much for your time, and I’m going to turn this off now. 12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ History Collection Description An account of the resource The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (LGBTQ) History Project began in 2015 as collaboration between Roanoke College, Roanoke Diversity Center and Roanoke Public Libraries in an effort to collect and preserve information on the history of the LGBTQ community in the Roanoke Valley and Southwest Virginia. Members of the community were encouraged to donate items relevant to the scope of this collection. Additionally, a number of oral history interviews with community members were conducted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015 - Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project References A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource. http://lgbthistory.pages.roanoke.edu/ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Lisa Lamphier Description An account of the resource Interviewer: Katie Stueckle Interviewee: Lisa Lamphier Date: 17 July 2023 Duration: 34:09 Transcription prepared by: Katie Stueckle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Southwest Virginia LGBTQ+ History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 July 2023 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lisa Lamphier, Katie Stueckle Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LamphierLisa