1 500 113 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4087/TurnerAnn.mp3 33fda4752bab401687318b133582acad https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4087/TurnerAnn.1.pdf 3f4e67f65de01b932c313589280aa45b PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Ann Turner Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Interviewee: Ann Turner Date: 6 April 2017 Location: Taylor’s private residence Duration: 45:26 Transcription prepared by: Kerri Taylor Index: 0:00= Childhood in in Redding Pennsylvania (1950-1968) 7:52= Working as a real estate appraiser (mid 80s?) 9:01= Life in Roanoke (1976-present) 11:32= Helping out her neighbor during a lightning storm 13:17= Working as an administrative assistant for Macado’s and renting their properties 14:36= Connection to community 15:33= Civil War re-enactment 16:11= Changes in Northwest Roanoke 17:46= Oaklands Plantation 18:13= Thoughts on slavery 20:15= Demographics of Ann’s neighborhood 22:14= the dwindling of ma and pa shops 25:32= Housing changes in Northwest Roanoke 26:41= Cultures of Northwest Roanoke 29:27= City management in Northwest Roanoke 29:57= Ann’s knowledge of the history of the surrounding neighborhood 33:06= involvement in organizations (American Business Women’s Association, Girl Scouts, United Daughters of the Confederacy or The Confederate Rose and juvenile Diabetes) 35:50= Research in the Virginia Room 37: 56= The culture of Northwest Roanoke in comparison to other parts of Roanoke 43:27= Ann’s sentiments of Roanoke 44:20=Transients 45:15= Closing remarks KT: Alright, today I am going to interview Ann Turner about her experiences in Northwest Roanoke and we are at her home and it is April 6, 2017. 0:13 KT: So I am going to start off by asking you to tell me about your childhood, can you tell me a little bit about that? 0:18 AT: Mmm yes. Well I’m originally from Pennsylvania. Grew up in Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia in a town called Redding, Pennsylvania. And I lived at a farm, but we were only 15 minutes from the city of Redding, so I was accustomed to a more rural type environment. We had animals and we raised our own food and so it was basically farm life you would say, but both of my parents worked out of the home, obviously my father, but my mother also did at certain times. My grandmother would come on the weekends and spend time with us, so I had the influence of her, both spiritual and also skills and so forth. She would sew for people and �during the week she lived with her daughter, my aunt, and so it was a very close knit family that we grew up with. 1:40 AT: Didn’t have a lot of friends because of the location of where we lived. We were encouraged to be very open minded and to speak, think, and read a lot. We, I, I was an avid reader and I enjoyed knowing everything about the families (laughter). I wasn’t exactly what you would say a gossipy person, but I just asked a lot of questions because I wanted to know. And I had a lot of very strong interests and a passion in learning about how things come to be and why they work the way they did and what was going on, not so much that I was nosey, but uh curious would be more the way to describe it. 2:44 AT: I was not afraid to reach out to people. I have never known a stranger. I enjoy talking to people and interacting with people even though as a very young child that was not in my area. I didn’t have that. I did go to church; I had a church life and although my parents were not involved, they would take me. I was pretty much, I just interacted with others in the church, so that was a big part of my life. I enjoyed that part. My grandmother was very avid at reading scriptures. 3:27 AT: My grandmother had a background, she was English and German and her parents were German. There was—and her in-laws were German, spoke German very, you know, fluently. So, that was a predominant. The old world culture would have been what I grew up with. This is what we expect, this is what we expect. And of course, the time period I grew up in was pretty strict as to what you would do and what was proper and that was most important to my parents and grandparents. 4:06 AT: There wasn’t a lot of liberal thinking in my family. They were pretty strict, but that was good because I got to enjoy nature. I got, we would do farm activities, plus hiking around the property. I was very imaginative as far as persons like I was this person or I was that, you know sort of like a little actress type of thing and my parents were very acceptable to that. They would kind of just play along. My grandmother being a seamstress, she would kind of make little costumes and things and I would play out little roles. I loved to do flower decorating. I mean I would go out in the fields and collect the flowers and make arrangements. I just enjoyed that. So pretty much, and I would go periodically to my grandparent’s 5:15 AT: My grandmother was English and she came this country when she was fourteen, so she had a lot of old world standards as well. My grandfather, he was a justice of the peace and he was also, he had his own nursery where he raised trees. In that point, we were, again, in nature and very open to the environment and the effects of the environment. Certain things you just would know do; you know? So I felt I had a better, I had a practical knowledge, but I was encouraged with him being a magistrate, I was encouraged to read, encouraged to advance my knowledge. Like If I had a question about something, it was, a common phrase would have been either from my parents or my grandparents, “well how ‘bout looking it up?” or “how ‘bout finding out why?” So that made me very much of an investigator so you might say. 6:25 AT: I didn’t always trust people around me as I was growing up around me other than my family because I didn’t know that they, I didn’t have a lot of interaction so they may not be as safe. That �was the period and that was where I lived and was what I understood. That’s pretty much, I had a very good childhood though. My grandparents would come and take me, probably like every other Sunday and we would do trips to their relatives, to my grandfather’s relatives down in Philadelphia, which was not that far away from us, but it was very good and I learned a lot of cultural things. They were Irish and German so, and they had parties and things like that along the cultural lines. They also were the same way, very, we would do different kind of dances and we would sing different kind of songs and that sort of thing, and I loved that. That was very interesting to me. 7:36 KT: So would you say that this curiosity that you said that you had has carried into your life now? 7:42 AT: Oh yes, definitely. 7:43 KT: Has that influenced any of your knowledge seeking in this area? 7:49 AT: Yes, most definitely. 7:51 KT: How so? 7:52 AT: Well, because I wanted to know about the area, I read extensively about the area. At one point in my life I was a real-estate appraiser, so I had the opportunity to go to different properties, and in doing so with that I had to collect data and information that the average person probably wouldn’t have done, and take pictures and note different things and that was very interesting to me, it was like I wasn’t really working. I was having a good time just experimenting and exploring and I know of a number of you know, properties, but more so if I had an interest, I’d be researching. [I am] very familiar with the libraries that were available in the area for me to find—extensive use of libraries, before computers were so avidly used 8: 55 KT: So how long have you lived in Roanoke and have you always lived in the Northwest part of Roanoke? 9:01 KT: I’ve lived in Roanoke since 1976. 41 years. I came and lived for six months near Towers (a shopping center in Roanoke) and then moved over to this area and I’ve been over here. I lived over on Plantation and then lived in this area. I’ve been in this area for 29 years. 9:35 KT: So what—[interruption] sorry. 9:35 AT: No that’s alright. 9:37 KT: So what brought you to Roanoke? 9:39 AT: Well, [laughing] I married. I divorced one husband and came to Roanoke and married another husband. Then divorced that husband and married again. So, I came to Roanoke because of the second husband’s job. 10:08 �KT: Okay. You said that you had lived at Plantation, near Towers and then you lived here. Is there a big difference in between those two areas? 10:16 AT: Oh yes. Did not like it over there. 10:20 KT: Can you describe to me why? 10:21 AT: Well because there’s too many people. It was more relaxing; it was more relaxed over here. And I found people to be more friendly over here. I also found people to be, actually, I found people over on the other side of town to be more transient. Here they were more established. They were more family, community. I mean we have a very, very community oriented street. Not that we know everything about everybody, but we’re very, very much a community. 11:00 KT: So with this sense of community, do you feel involved in your community? 11:07 AT: Hmm. Not as much as my husband is [laughter]. My husband is more interested and more involved. I’m just a high and by, but if something happens in my community I’m right there, whatever the need might be. 11:25 KT: Can you tell me about a time where you might have been at the community when the community needed you? 11:32 AT: Well yes, when my neighbor next door, not the present one, but when the neighbor next door, lighting hit her stove and it caught fire and it was smoking and I saw the smoke and called the fire department and of course was there because she was an older lady, so offered help there. Some of the other people moving in and out, sometimes they had—I’d walk up and down the street and maybe know a little bit about them and if they needed help or something to that effect. That would probably be the only thing. My neighbors across the street, both the gentleman across the street and the lady at the end of the street, they’ve been here for many years. I enjoyed hearing stories about the neighborhood and the area. 12:30 KT: What were some of the stories that they told you? 12:32 AT: Uh, just how the area had changed over the years and what was there at one time, and what was not here now and of course when my husband lived a little bit further down than where we are right now, and in his later life he spent quite a bit of time here and when he was younger too he talked about you know, this restaurant was here and this business was here. It was like this or it was like that. 13:05 KT: Did they ever mention any properties that were owned by some affluent families in the area? 13:11 AT: I don’t think they were that interested. No. 13:16 KT: So it was more recent for their memory. 13:17 �AT: It was more recent. I probably was the one that knew more about the properties that were older properties like the Petties and some of the other families that were down in this area and so forth. But no, I didn’t know a lot. There was an old home on— I can’t think of the name of this street at the moment, but anyway, when I worked, I worked for a while for the restaurant Macados as their administrative assistant and also I rented, I was a, I rented their properties as a rental agent and one of the Machers owned, bought a house down in this area. It was an older house and renovated. 14:08 KT: Um do you feel like you have a personal connection to where you live here and if so what is that connection? I know that you mentioned earlier that you really like nature and you like interacting with people but sometimes you’re more withdrawn [Ann says the word here too] So do you feel like there’s that connection there with either that the place that you’re living or the community around you? 14:33 AT: Yes. 14:34 KT: Can you describe it to me? 14:36 AT: It’s very comfortable, you can either interact with people or not and they’re still going to wave to you and they’re still going to be there. They’re just not as demanding. They’re just not as, I would not be the person with the coffee cup or tea cup going and sitting down and having a long conversation. That didn’t ever occur to me to do that. The main reason being, I enjoy talking to old people who have been in an area for a long time and know a lot historically and so I like to explore that. 15:23 KT: Would you say that’s from your curiosity as a child of wanting to know why things are the way they are and people encouraging you continuously look for the reasons? 15:33 AT: Yes. Yes. And history. I’m a Civil War reenactor, so I search it out, not just to know about it, but I search it out for the historical part of it. 15:51 KT: So this, the landscape around you, has it changed much since you’ve lived here? Since—you said 1974 right? 16:00 AT: Uh, 6 (1976) 16:00 KT: 6, 1976. Has it changed much? 16:04 AT: In some areas. Yes. In some areas it has. In some areas not as much. 16:10 KT: What areas? Has it changed? 16:11 AT: Um, I would say in the upper part between Hershberger and out towards Route 11. Up plantation, up Williamson Road, there’s been a lot of changes in houses and so forth that are built behind what was present because the original was you know like the 1940’s. Most of these except for some larger established plantations and so forth that were on the properties. I mean �one of the plantations, one of them was, it’s called the plantation of [Roan?]. it used to be Sunny Brook Inn over on Plantation. That has quite a vivid history and German history. It’s a restaurant. It’s been a restaurant for many years. That was very interesting to me. Also the cemetery, the Petty Cemetery where there’s a cartouche type of tomb there. Many things that are behind what you see on the surface. Markers, street markers for different, where there were different plantations in this area. There were a lot of plantations in this upper area. 17: 42 KT: Does the name Oaklands mean anything to you? Does it ring a bell? 17:46 AT: I just know about it, I just don’t know anything in particular. 17:53 KT: So you just know the name? 17:54 AT: I just know the name. 17:55 KT: Okay. So Oaklands was actually a slave plantation in the area and it’s not too far from here and it was, it encompassed a lot of Northwest. So does it make you feel any different knowing that you’re living in an area that used to have slaves in it? 18:13 AT: That was a culture of another time. They were here, I do not think a lot like Northerners where I’m from think (laughter). I think more like in the venue of Southerners in the fact that they were a necessary part of the family of a plantation. I go with the understanding that all people have value and that was a different culture and a different tie and a different responsibility. Women in general were not much different than slaves; they had their purpose and their responsibilities within family and the society was totally different. And no, it does not bother me. Slavery, I have a different thought on slavery than a lot of people do because not all people who were enslaved, who were slaves, were put under the duress that they were in other places. Virginia in particular, did not do that in a large percentage of time, they were very compassionate to slaves and in my opinion, no I wouldn’t want to have been in that situation, but on the other hand, Virginia offered a lot better circumstances, some parts of Virginia, allowed a lot better circumstances for those who were slaves and it was much like for women and for men who did not have some of the skills of the financials that was a means to survive. 20:25 KT: Would you say your upbringing on a farm, that that has anything to do with you thinking of slaves purpose on a farm? 20:34 AT: Yes. Would definitely. 20:35 KT: okay. 20:38 KT: Umm so this, the demographics of your neighborhood, can you tell me a little bit about the demographics? Like what kinds of people live here? What ethnicity are they? 20:50 AT: Well, you have a lot of a mixture. In this particular area, this area has become very much Hispanic. But there were a lot of transients at one time in this area. But then there were a lot of blue collar workers, families. Very established and there were a lot of services. Like for instance, �you had service stations, garages, auto garages and other type that are related to the different services. Which is sort of transitioning, you don’t have as much. You know like tires or glass, which you’ll see if you go up and down Williamson road, that’s still exists. And I think to a large extent that’s always been like that from what I understand. There were a lot of different type of services that were available. 21:59 KT: So it sounds like you're acknowledging that they are kind of going away, these services. They’re not as prevent. 22:07 AT: No they’re not. 22:08 KT: When did that start? Do you remember? 22:09 AT: About 15 years ago. 22:11 KT: 15 years ago, okay. 22:14 AT: The ma and pa situation went away. 22:20 KT: Do you know why that is? Do you have a sense of that? 22:21 AT: Yeah because, first of all, property values, the circumstances, ownership of properties. There were a lot of properties that had older, they were held by owners that were older, and then they were sold off and the children didn’t retain those businesses they went into either larger businesses or they were eliminated. 22:54 KT: And so, what happened to those businesses? Did they turn into residential areas or did they just become buildings that just sit there? 22:03 AT: They’re still there. Well it’s a little bit of both. It’s a little bit both. There’s not so much residential, but they’ve you might say, revitalized, but they’re not as—the small business in the Northwest section here is, really struggles. And you can see that from storefronts that are changing all the time. Within a year they can change two or three times. And within five years they can change even more than that. 23:46 KT: And who is it that owns these stores? What kind of people own them? 23:51 AT: Well might be, maybe young people that are breaking into retail of some sort, or they could be some skilled that maybe they’ve worked many years in a larger garage or something and decided to open a garage of their own. They could be, oh my, such a variety. We have a lot of retail shops like where they would sell antiques or they would sell mostly cars, there’s lots of a large part are cars that maybe they would have their own financing and that would be totally different than your larger car dealerships. There’s quite a number of them up and down this area. 24:56 KT: Is there anything that you liked about Roanoke that has changed that you are perhaps a little sad about or you feel like there’s a loss? �25:09 AT: Yes. We’ve lost a lot of ma and pa businesses in general, you know to franchises and other sorts of businesses now. You just don’t have the same relationship with the business owners now. KT: [interruption] And which…sorry. 25: 32 AT: Also the housing has changed too. 25:36 KT: Yeah? Can you expand on that? 25:37 AT: A lot of the larger older houses may have four or five apartments in them now which they didn’t have before. They’ve transitioned. There’s not as many single family as there is multifamily? 25:53: KT: Is there a sense of crowdedness in Northwest? With the moving in of people into these homes where there’s a lot of people? 26:02 AT: I don’t know. I think it’s the nature of the culture of the people who have moved. They’re typically like that, and so that’s why it’s developed. I wouldn’t say they were crowded. I don’t know of crowdedness in this area. Now they have built other behind established, they have built other in between, they have built other duplexes and that sort of thing, but I wouldn’t say it's overcrowded at this point. 26:36 KT: So you mention the culture of these people, which culture are you referring to? 26:41 AT: Latin American, Hispanic. Puerto Rican, there’s quite a number of Puerto Rican families. Uh and there’s like Bosnian and different other cultures in— Lebanese, there’s quite a number of Lebanese. Large community of Lebanese. Hmm. And a lot of people who at one time who were rural and another part of the state or states and have come and they like communal living. It's very conducive to communal living because they can walk to a lot of things. They don’t have to drive. 27:33 KT: When did you notice this cultural shift? Was it here when you got here or has it been an ongoing process? 27:39 AT: It’s both. It was here when I got here, but it’s more so now than it was before. 27:48 KT: And was it the same group of people when you first got here or? 27:50 AT: No. 27:51 KT: Okay, who was that first group of people? 27:53 AT: They were a lot of the younger people. And then they because they came out of colleges and they were living in this area because they were close to the colleges and then they transitioned �from there, the properties became more, well it’s the same situation as you lived, you know, like we have millennials that live at home and they, the parents are gone, and they are transitioning. There’s a lot of nursing homes that have become available and that population has definitely grown. So the older you know, retired situation there’s more of those than were. Also veterans, there’s a lot of veterans that live on this side of town even though the VA is on the other side of town, but there are a lot of veterans over here because of the cost of living of a family unit. 28:58 KT: Do you mean that it's cheaper on this side of town? 20:00 AT: Yes. 29:02 KT: Okay. Do you notice with the price of living here that sometimes the quality might be a little cheaper as well? Like for example the roads are torn up a lot? 29:16 AT: Yes. 29:17 KT: How does that make you feel? Do you feel like your side of town gets a lot of attention or that because it's old there’s just some work… 29:27 AT: Well it’s a combination thing because, see for instance my street, these last eight houses are in the county, the rest is in the city. The majority of this area right off of Williamson road or Williams road are right in the city. So it's influenced throughout the city. The city has a different system of maintenance than the county does. 29:57 KT: So do you know any of the history of the neighborhood you’re living in right now? Did you ever make it that far in your curiosity? 30:06 AT: Well I don’t if you know the large plantation La Maison was a restaurant at one time. Well see that was a large plantation at one time and a lot of this property actually out here, they were part of that. There was another one down farther that at one time, it was called the Barn Dinner Theatre and that was the large property as well, plantation and so forth and I mean eventually at some point the barn was gone and whatever, but there were a number of like of Florace the grain houses and that sort of thing and hay owned a lot of property and plantation and all that particular property was built up around it, across the street from where that is. There now lots of garden homes and homes in there and behind there are two large plantation homes too. Also, in the out farther, this is the same situation. Also down below, I can’t think of the name of it, but the pl— the large home, I can’t think of what its name was at one point, but anyways, it was a large, it was between plantation and Williamson road, was a large plantation as well. 31:52 KT: Do you notice any lasting elements of perhaps in that culture or some of that land still around? Do you notice just like it in the nature around you or is it kind of disguised? 32:07 AT: Well La Maison is a business and you see it there. Some of the other structures are still existing, but they’re just a small property now versus what it was at one time. 32:22 KT: So unless you knew the history, you probably wouldn’t know it existed? �32:24 AT: You wouldn’t know. It’s broken up quite a bit. It’s all subdivided. That’s what I want to say, it's subdivided. 32:32 KT: What do you feel you have contributed to the area that you live in? 32:38 AT: I don’t know. (laughter) I’ve just been, we’ve just been good property owners and maintained our property. I don’t know that I did much else. Tried to be a good neighbor. Tried to be a good citizen. 32: 53 KT: Have you made any meaningful connections here? 32:58 AT: Uh in Roanoke in general? 33:00 KT: Mmhmm. Since you’ve lived here? 33:06 AT: I think so. I’ve been involved in a number of organizations and volunteered a lot of it, volunteer organizations. 33:23 KT: Could you tell me a little bit more about the organizations that you were involved in? 33:26 AT: Well, American Business Women’s Association, Girl Scouting, other historical type of organizations to do with the confederacy: United Daughters of the Confederacy or the Confederate Rose. Some other organizations like Juvenile Diabetes, that was fundraising, of course with my children there were in a lot of things that I was a part of. Me, and of course in my church, a lot of the activities within my church. 34:15 KT: Can you tell me a little bit about your church? 34:17 AT: Well my church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And we are definitely a community based and family based and we sustain those who may not have funds to sustain themselves such as food and housing and so forth we help through our contributions as regular members to help to sustain them as well in whatever trials that they may be going through. So we’re somewhat what you’d call self-sustaining, to me that’s important, think the church should not be for itself and its hierarchy but for its people and its member and the needs that they have. 35:14 KT: So I know a little about the church that you go to and that they do a lot of genealogical work, has that influences any of your curiosity and history of this particular area? 35:50 AT: Oh yes. Yes. I started, my daughter went to dance down in Floyd ward off of Elm Avenue and while she was at dance I was the Virginia Room and found out quite a bit about my family and just learned to extensively about the area, you know read extensively. Libraries in this area are very well supplied with current information, with specific information. I found a great aid there to finding a lot to what, anything I wanted, it was there. 36:11 KT: What are some of the topics that you researched? �36:16 AT: Well, sewing obviously. Sewing and geological. I would also, the arts, cultures, of course my favorite, the Civil War. But any kind of history. I enjoy any type of history. I like fashion. Fashion history. I like liberal arts of many different—and I love the cultural things, like when you want to know something you go to the library and read about it. You know, that was important. I did I used to, I haven’t as much within the last year, but I used to take out a lot of tapes and resources you know that I could play while I was sewing or whatever to entertain me and learn a great thing, a great amount of knowledge. When I was young person, now this was true, my mother was very influential in getting a lot of materials for me from the library and I traveled around the world. And I still to this day, if I want to know something about a country or a culture, the library is my place. 37:46 KT: What is the culture around Roanoke and does it differ from this specific section of Roanoke, in Northwest? 37:56 AT: It’s different. The Northwest different from the Southwest, is different from the Southern part. Mainly it’s a level of income because that is what is the factor in these different areas and it's reflected in the people in these areas. It’s more struggle in some areas and I don’t think this is interesting to some areas to spend time interacting. They’re so busy just trying to maintain what they have to maintain, it’s a little hard to branch out and meet other people where I think in our area here, we’re fairly, we’re more communicative. It’s not that we care more about what’s happening, we care about our community. We care about who is here. Like if there is people here that don’t look too, or look questionable and don’t like they should be, we say something about it or make note about it. That’s one thing I like about this area. And there’s not as many people, like you kind of know the people that go up and down and who live in this area. Now of course we have banks at the end, so there’s people who come up and down, but you basically know your neighbors and that’s a little bit different than on the Southwest, Southeast sometimes you don’t necessarily do that. Now you do in Salem. You know that, because it’s a little bit smaller communities, but basically not it a larger one. I at one time lived in downtown, A short time, and that was very different. Of course I loved living down there because the architecture was fabulous. 40:04 KT: So what kind of people did you mean when you said people who don’t belong In the neighborhood? Are these people who are like causing trouble? 40:14 AT: Yes. We’ve had that happened. Its transitioned. It’s not happening, but it did happen at one time. 40:24: KT: And what caused that transition would you say? 40:30 AT: It was well, some elements came into the neighborhood, but the police took care of that. 40:42: KT: What’s an element? 40:44 AT: That’s someone who robs you. 40:46 �KT: okay. 40:48 AT: My neighbor across the street was robbed. Yes. 40:54 KT: So would you say this is a fairly safe area? 40:55 AT: Now. Yes, but there’s things we do. We have a neighborhood watch and there’s certain things that we do, leave lights on, if we noticed unusual people that don’t normally frequent the area, or for instance if they drive up to the dead end and they sit up there, that’s questionable. We in the neighborhood call the police sometimes. We don’t call to send them out, we just let them know that there’s an element going on and we take license plate numbers. 41:35 KT: Have you noticed any existing or forming ethnic communities, and I ask that in that they stick together and kind of branch off into their own little thing or are people pretty well integrated in the neighborhood? 41:52 AT: Not integrated. 41:54 KT: Not integrated. 41:55 AT: They keep to themselves. 41:57 KT: Do they stay to themselves in the way that you do or do they stay to themselves with people who are like them? 42:04 AT: Of their own culture. Yes. 42:06 KT: And would you, how often would say that happens? Is this a big group of people or is it a small group of people? 42:18 AT: I don’t know. That, it changes. I can’t say it’s always like that, but most of the time certain areas in this area, where they are more communal living, there’s more transients back and forth. We have a lot of people who live maybe four or five families in the houses, in large houses. They’re not necessarily apartment-sized, I don’t know if there’s a word for that. 43:01 KT: Is this something that is distinct to Northwest? Does this happen in the other areas? 43:05 AT: More so, yes. Because there’s more single family in other areas in Salem and in Southwest. Now in Southeast you have a lot of that. 43:20 KT: Is there anything you would like to add to your experience of living in Roanoke before we conclude with our interview? 43:27 AT: Just that I have been here 41 years and I have no desire to move. I love this area. My children have moved to Florida. I visit, and I love coming back to the mountains. 43:40 �KT: What is it about the area that you love? 43:42 AT: Well I like the mountains, I like the nature very close by and I like the people because they mind their own business. I don’t have a lot of, there’s not a lot of adverse neighbors and that makes a big difference and we don’t have a lot of transient type environments, we have apartments yes, but they don’t influence us, our home. 44:15 KT: Just briefly, can you elaborate on what you mean by transient? You’ve used the word a lot. 44:20 AT: Well because there are people that live for 3 months 6 months, maybe even a year and then they’re moving. 44:30 KT: So temporary people? 44:31 AT: Now okay, that’s a word. Well sometimes the transients are maybe someone has a home and they may be living in the home for 3, 6, 8, 12 months, but they’re not family members, they’re in the home. We have that on this street. But they’re not, they’re not, hmmm, a detriment to the neighborhood. 45:01 KT: Right. Do they feel like outsiders? 45:05 AT: I would say so. 35:07 KT: But that doesn’t affect your liking of Northwest? 35:12 AT: No. Not at all. 45:15: KT: Alrighty, so is there anything else with that? 45:17 AT: I don’t think so. 45:18 KT: Alrighty, well thank you so very much. It was nice talking to you. 45:21 AT: Thank you. 25:23-45:26: sound recording ends. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Ann Turner Subject The topic of the resource Oaklands Description An account of the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Ann Turner Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Date: 6 April 2017 Location: Ms. Taylor's residence Duration: 45:26 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kerri Taylor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6 April 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ann Turner; Kerri Taylor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TurnerAnn https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4086/ShowalterEnglish_[compressed].mp3 2b5b3ae165cf5bb7da0126c68b9ba148 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4086/ShowalterEnglish.pdf 57a64a348855e9edec09c45c54b21295 PDF Text Text Oaklands Neighborhood Oral Histories Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Interviewee: English Showalter Date: May 13, 2017 Location: Chevy Chase Maryland, English’s home. Transcribed by: Kerri Taylor Duration: 1:05:26 KT 0:00- Today is May 13th, 2017 and I am going to interview English Showalter. We are in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and I am at his home and first I am going to ask him about his childhood, so can you tell me about your childhood? ES: 0:15- Anything more specific than my childhood? KT 0:19- Uh, what it was like growing up. ES 0:20- Well I was born in Roanoke in 1935. May 14th actually, almost my birthday today. (phone rings- we pause the recorder) is it going again? Okay KT 0:38 – Sorry the phone rang. ES: 0:41- Um and my family lived in South Roanoke. I was the first child in my family. For the first two years approximately of my life, which I have no memory of at all, we lived in an apartment on Avenham Avenue, about a block away from where my father’s father lived and in between one of my father’s brother’s family lived, and then we moved when I was two years old—I think because my mother was expecting my brother—to a house, still only about 4 blocks away on what was then called Lafayette Avenue, which is now Longview Avenue., also in South Roanoke. We lived there, I lived there really all the time I spent in Roanoke. My parents moved around 1960 to another house about a half a block away higher up Longview Avenue. When I first lived there it was 525 Lafayette Avenue and by the time I left it was 2619 Longview Avenue, but it was the same house and the same place.. I went to a private kindergarten when I was four �called Mrs. Genheimer’s and it was over on the other side of South Roanoke and I have very few real memories about that. Most of what I remember from these years is when I did something and got scolded for it, so I remember a day when we were supposed to be talking about things in class and I couldn’t get my two bits in and so I screamed and said, “I want to talk!” and I got punished for that. And another time, I and a bunch of my friends were playing with the blocks there and we built an airplane and the teacher came over and said, “What is this?” and we said, “it’s an airplane!” and she said, ‘What are you going to do with it?” and we said we were going to “drop some bombs on Germany.” This would have been in 1939 or 1940, so early news of the war. She said, “No, no, no, no. These are going to be food bombs; you’re just going to drop food for people. You don’t want to blow things up.” And I was extremely annoyed about that. By this time, I had a little brother; he was born when I was 2.5 years old. My best friend in those years was a little girl who lived next door. Her name was Mary Ann Pickett. She was a year older than I was, but we played together all of the time and I guess the depression or something had stopped temporarily the development of residential area in Southwest Roanoke and so behind our house was a big patch of woods that had no houses on it or anything. It does now, but I think it had just been abandoned because people couldn’t afford new houses and things. So that was our playground and we climbed trees and made paths and chased little animals and caught snakes and box turtles. Got poison ivy, did all sorts of things like that. I went to Mrs. Genheimer's school for two years and then went to public school at Crystal Spring. I went in at six years old, but I went into the second grade and I went there through the seventh grade, so very large part of my childhood in Roanoke was spent in Crystal Spring School. I have a lot of memories of that, nothing very important it seems to me. Kind of every other year I liked my teacher and the alternate years I hated my teacher. After that for the 8th and 9th grade I went to Lee Jr. High School, which I think no longer exists. It was downtown, on Franklin Road, right near the Appalachian Power building corner and 2nd street I think. It was a big change from Crystal Spring where almost everybody lived within walking distance of it, well not quite everybody, there were some students that were bussed in., whereas at Lee Jr. they came from all over the city and I had to take a bus to and from school or street car, which were still running at the time. The circle of people that I came into contact with was considerably different from what it had been in Crystal Spring. The most vivid example of that is that in one year, in my home room class, I was sitting in an assigned desk near the back of the room and the student who had the desk next to mine was named Sammy, and he had an Eastern European last name—I forgot what exactly it was, but he looked a whole lot older than he really was and he really was at least one year older than anybody else in the class, and therefore two years older than me. He had actually run away and enlisted in the Marines when he was fifteen years old, lying about his age, and then they had found out that he was younger than he was supposed to be, so they threw him out of the marines and he had to go back to school. �Every-day he brought two beers for lunch, but he was afraid that the teacher would look in his desk, so he gave them to me and I kept them in my desk because she never looked at my desk. It was also, well, as you could guess from that, there were some fairly tough kids in the school And one of the ways that I avoided being bullied or picked on, because I was much smaller than most of the other kids, boys or girls, was in the first class in the day, which was a history class if I recall, it may be social studies, we would have homework assignments and there were about three people in the class who actually did the assignment, me being one of them. When we would get to class, the first thing to do would be to give it to the person next to us, who would copy it, and then they would hand the two copies to two other people, and within a fairly short time, everybody in the class has a copy of the homework to turn in. As long as I didn’t resist doing that, everybody was happy enough to leave me alone. We had Physical Education classes where we had to walk from there over to Elmwood park where the library was, still is I guess, but in those days it was just an old house, the original Elmwood was a house that belonged to one of the old Roanoke families, the Tayloes maybe. In the park around it, we were instructed to play games of various kinds, one of which was touch football, but there were a number of kids in the class who played very rough, and so I didn’t enjoy that. After a while, I and a friend of mine got in a habit of sneaking out of the class and going into the library. We would spend phys ed class in the library reading. I was very interested in tropical fish at the time. There was a beautiful book with illustrated pictures of tropical fish, so I would look at these pictures and daydream about owning those fish. At the end of 9th grade I was sent away to prep school, and I never lived in Roanoke for lengthy periods after that. I came back in the summers for vacations and shorter vacations like Christmas and Spring Break and things like that. I did spend one other year at home because I had been sick, and had to drop out of college for a year, but that’s really the end of my time in Roanoke, so I was fourteen, it was 1949 the last year that I was really a resident of Roanoke. KT 12:16- So How does where you live now differ from where you grew up? Or your memories of it. ES 12:25- Well it differs in so many ways that it is almost impossible to describe. I think of it every now and then. I suppose this were the year I was born, 1935, and I were somebody the age I am now, when would I have been born? The answer is 1853 and if you think about the changes that took place between 1853 and 1935, it is just about inconceivable. Everything electric did not exist in 1853. Of course slavery did still exist. There were lots and lots of other major inventions like the internal combustion engine and the steel and steel frame construction that enabled buildings to be built higher than five or six stories so that the whole landscape of the country really changed rapidly. Most of municipal systems, like sewers and running water, and obviously electrification, all that came in in that period. In some ways I think probably the change is as inconceivable to someone born now from what it was like when I was born. Although to me, having lived through it, it never seemed very dramatic. There was never a moment when I said, “oh, everything is different now!” �Some things that happened, which I remember a great deal about, like the second World War, were really earth shattering events, especially if you were in Europe where the war was going on, or in parts of Asia and the Pacific where it was going on, and there were very noticeable things that happened in Roanoke. There was rationing so that lots of things that people take for granted became scarce. You had to have ration coupons for gasoline, you had to have ration coupons for tires, so automobile travel was greatly reduced, except for people who were deemed necessary for the war effort. Various kinds of food were considered to be scarce and there was a shortage of things like sugar, and tropical fruits, oranges, this kind of thing. And candy and bubble gum, I don’t know if there was any real reason for them to be scarce or not, but as kids, they were very rare. One of my friends at Crystal Spring at some point got as a present a little box that had twenty five pieces of bubble gum in it and he was selling them to classmates—they cost a penny each, I think at the time—and he was selling them I think for a quarter. In anycase, the principal of the school found out about this, called him into her office and bawled him out and told him he was running a black market and this was profiteering. He was about eight or nine years old. Sort of at the end, when rationing ended, things began to come back. I got caught because it was Lent, I don’t know what church you were brought up in, but in the Episcopal Church we were told we had to give up something for the forty days of Lent, so I had been giving up candy, there wasn’t any difference, because there wasn’t any candy anyway. This year I gave up candy and all of a sudden there were Hershey bars everywhere. So I was very distressed and my mother finally agreed with my conscience that I would buy it, but I wouldn’t eat it until the end of Lent, so I had this big stash of candy bars and when Lent ended I ate it all and got sick and I’ve really never liked it much since. So it was a good thing in the long run. I like that. We also did things like air raid drills and my father was a warden, and I don’t know how often, but often enough so I remember It happening repeatedly, he would go out in the evening and we had heavy oil-cloth curtains that we would pull down that completely blocked out any light and we couldn’t even have any lights on. We had blue light bulbs that we could use and he would go out with other wardens and each one of them had a couple of blocks that they patrolled and checked to make sure all the lights were out and everybody was paying attention and they would sound a siren at the beginning and end. This was all in the event of an attack by air, which of course, I think was never remotely a possibility. What are some of the others? Well we had a victory garden, that was another thing, which I learned sometime after the war was totally unnecessary, but was meant to give people a sense of participating. So, there was also a big area at the lower part of Longview Avenue that was undeveloped, it’s got apartment buildings on it now, but it was just fields then. And so it had been taken over, and we had what the British would call an allotment, which is just a little patch of ground that doesn’t belong to you but you have the right to grow flowers or vegetables in it. So we had one of these and every day, or every couple of days at least, we would go down with tools, seeds, and plant and we grew, I don’t know, radishes, lettuce, and carrots, things like that. Considered part of that our contribution to winning the war. �We also had a thing called Junior Commandos, which meant that every Saturday I would go out with a little wagon and go around the neighborhood and pick up spare grease, which was presumably used for making munitions in some way. Most of the families in that neighborhood had maids. A few didn’t, but I knew all of the families’ maids, and I went by and picked up a bucket of grease in a container and we took it to school on Monday and it was presumably poured into a bigger container. I don’t know what the grease was coming from because they didn’t have bacon then. That was another war time scarcity. After the war, everybody had tons of bacon grease, but in those days, I’m not sure what it was. KT 21:03 KT 21:03- So in the Virginia Room, I’ve seen a few maps with your family’s name on it: Showalter, on big estates, I was wondering if your family still owns any property in Roanoke? ES 21:16- I think the answer to that is really no. The Showalters never did own huge amounts of land in Roanoke. My mother’s family, who were named Watts, did own a really really large plantation that covered most of what is now the northern part of Roanoke City and a big chunk on the Eastern side that I think included everything North of the Roanoke River in the Eastern part of Roanoke, but that was when there wasn’t any Roanoke, it was Big Lick and as Big Lick grew into something more like a city, and the family divided up, the owner, who was a single person at one point, divided it up among his four children and then the one who owned the largest part passed it on to direct descendants who didn’t have brothers and sisters to split it up, but that family still owns a decent part of it. My father liked to buy business properties, but they were never residential things. He owned a couple of buildings in Salem that were rented to stores, some pieces of undeveloped property on route 460, but it was in Salem and things like that. And in the very old days, if you’re looking at the Hildebrand maps, he had plotted onto a modern map the land holdings in 1850, or something like that, and there was a Showalter who owned not a very large, but a piece of land at that time, but I don’t know what kin he is to me. It was not a direct ancestor. KT 24:15- Okay. ES 24:16- Very likely an uncle. You know? A cousin of an uncle or something. KT 24:23- So when you were in Roanoke, were there any existing black or white communities at the time? ES �24:29- Umm yes. I mean there was a large black population who lived mainly in the area that was just North of the railroad tracks and running on to the West of the Southern edge of the Watts plantation. There’s a stream that runs along the end that was kind of the dividing line, and it ran on out to the city limit. Most of that area was predominantly, if not entirely, black. There were very, very large numbers of them who worked in other parts of the city, including South Roanoke. As I said before, most of the people that we picked up grease from on Saturdays had maids and those maids were, I think 100% black. They all took the streetcar, from South Roanoke to their area of town and they all knew each other from riding on the street car and things together and social life that they had in their churches and things like that. But they also knew each other in the neighborhood because they spent a lot of time outdoors and I guess they got to know each other back and forth and so I knew everybody else's maid as well as our own. It’s the maids who really, I mean in the tradition of the Southern mammy type thing, they really brought up the children. They were nannies as well as cooks and cleaners. There were also a lot of men who did thing like yard maintenance, yard work. in the early days, we had a coal burning furnace and there was a man who would come every morning before dawn, and put coal into the furnace so that it would heat up before the family got up and I think he had a string of houses that he did that for. All I know about it is that his name was Mose and I’m not sure I ever saw him, but I remember well my family talking about him. That gradually changed. I mean one of the things that I have seen changed was in my earliest years, it was a coal town. Railroad brought the coal and transshipped it to the Roanoke yards and things like that. Everybody had a coal furnace and the first big step towards progress was everybody got a stoker that only had to be filled once every three or four days and that put people like Mose out of business because they had a stoker and didn’t need to have someone come every-day. In those intermediate years when I guess I was in Crystal Spring, one of my jobs was to go down every two and three days and fill up my grandmother’s stoker and then eventually, everybody shifted to oil furnaces. I think I was gone from Roanoke by the time that happened. I grew up very much aware of the railroads because our house, it was high enough up on the hill so you could see across the valley. You could see to Round Hill, which was on the Watts plantation, but it was in hearing distance of the Virginian Railway Yards. The Norfolk & Western bought the Virginian Railway, but the big railroad yard that’s close to the river between Jefferson Street and Franklin Road, that was the Virginian Railroad all the time I was in Roanoke and it was a big yard where they unhitched the locomotives that brought it down from West Virginia and hitched it on to a different one and took it on down to Norfolk. We could hear the sounds, the ‘chuh fuh chuh fuh’ sound of the steam engines, which I still find very relaxing and soothing. I don’t hear it much anymore, but I quite like it and any railroad sound. It’s been awhile since I was in Roanoke, but I like to stay in the hotel Roanoke because it was close to the railroad and you could hear the trains going by and I like that. KT 30:37- Was there any neighborhood segregation or segregation at all during the time that you were lived in Roanoke? �ES 30:44 Oh, it was total. It was the law. KT 30:46 Can you describe some of that? ES 30:49 Well you know, I was hardly aware of it until I got to be a teenager, and around that time I wasn’t living in Roanoke anymore. I mean , for the most part, people accepted it and just didn’t pay much attention to it. There were things that black people were forbidden to do and there were things that white people were not supposed to do because it would interfere with the smooth operating of the system. As kids, I and my friends used to violate all the time, the rule that was posted in all public transport: “whites to front, colored to rear”, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen one of those signs or not, but all of the street cars and buses had a notice like that posted on it somewhere and we wanted to go sit in the back, so we did, although, if it got to be fairly crowded, we would occasionally be asked by one of the black riders to move up to our own part. The most obvious incident that I ever had any contact with, I don’t know what year this would have been, it must have been in the 1950’s and probably the year I was home because of being sick, which would have been ’53, ’54. One of the black churches got together with St. John’s Episcopal Church, which was my family’s church and they worked together on producing some kind of musical production, whether it was a choir recital or performance of a musical, something like that. I think all of the performers in it were from the black community and the white church provided financial support and helped pay for the sets and the costumes and lighting and this kind of thing. Anyway, most of the people that I knew disapproved of segregation, wished it did not exist, were happy to see it go when it did go. This was a way of— they thought—of avoiding it and doing something that showed inter-racial cooperation and so forth, but it was against the law to have the audience unsegregated and the plan had been that nobody was going to say anything about it and they were going to go in and sit together, and somebody reported it and so they were forced to drop that plan—it was a terrible crisis, I mean everybody was dismayed because it undid the whole spirit of the whole thing. I think what they finally did was agree to have an imaginary line down the middle so in fact there were going to be in every row whites and blacks sitting next to each other, but they would all be the same to either side and you know, my family was just distraught about it. This person had intervened and wrecked this plan. But other than that, I had been gone for several years before the Supreme court decision desegregating the schools came into effect, and the school I went to in this area, Episcopal High School in Alexandria was as segregated a school as you can imagine. Episcopal High School basically had white southerners in it, boys, all boys. �KT 35:43- Can you describe the difference between the segregation here and in Alexandria? ES 35:49- Now? KT 35:50- No. When you went to the high school—from what you had experienced from what you grew up in Roanoke. ES 35:56- Well when I was in the high school, I don’t think we ever saw a black person. There were certainly none in the student body, and there were none in the faculty. There may have been some who were working in things like grounds keeping or something, but I don’t remember if they were there. I certainly had no significant contact with them and of course the state of Virginia where it is, was under the law of segregation then, so any of the places that I would have gone would have been segregated as well. In the city of Washington, there was , I don’t know what the legal situation was, but the segregation was just about the same as it was in Virginia There was a black area of town, which I never set foot in, and then there was the downtown area. I mean I did go, but we couldn’t go in very much. In order to keep us from mingling with the townies, of course they weren’t black, it was just because they were townies, we had our day off on Monday, when the local kids were in school. So Mondays, if we had behaved ourselves, we could come into Washington. We’d take the bus in, and what I normally did, I and my friends would take the bus in, and we would go to movies. There was a movie theatre in the area of Dupont Circle that showed double features of the Marx brothers and we would do that and we would eat at the White Tower, which was a little hamburger joint and have five hamburgers and see two Marx brothers movies and that would be our day in Washington. Sometimes we did something else, nothing ever very educational. It wasn’t like we came in and went to the Museum of Natural History or anything, but the big theatres at that time, movie theatres, had live stage shows and so sometimes you could go to the movie and they had these big Wurlitzer organs and things like that. Every now and again there was a show that we wanted to see in one of those and I remember vividly going to hear a singer named Frankie Laine, you ever hear of Frankie Laine? KT 38:51- Maybe. ES 38:53- Well before you were born, in the late 1940’s, early 1950’s, he had two big hits kind of right in a row. One was called Lucky Old Sun “up in the mornin’, out on the job, work like the devil for my pay.” Play it on Youtube and you can hear it, and the other one was called Mule �Train, and he came and did a show in the movie in Washington, so we went to it, but those movie theatres were all segregated. Walking on the streets, there would've been some black people walking on the streets, but way below the proportion of the black population of the city. KT 39:49- So we are going to move a little away from that topic and we are going to move more towards this question: What does the word Oaklands mean to you? ES 39:59- Well, Oaklands was the name of the plantation that my, I think it is three great grandfather built on the, in the Northern part of the area that is now Roanoke County. The time he built it, which was around 1818, Roanoke County was still a part of Botetourt County and the only settlement immediately close to it was Big Lick, which was barely more than a crossroads with a couple of shacks by it. Salem was the main town in the area, it was an important stop on the road from the East through the Cumberland gap out into the Midwest, so there was heavy, heavy traffic of settlers who a lot of them came down the Shenandoah Valley and others came just from the East and across where route 460 is now from Lynchburg, and then they went on West through Salem and Christiansburg and all that where the interstate goes now. My personal memories of Oaklands are that I had a relative that lived there we called Aunt Dolly. I made you a list of the people who lived at Oaklands. Follow this, and if you come down KT 41:51- Thank you. Right now we are looking at the list. ES 41:53- Yeah, if you look down it number 321 William Watts, and he married Ellen Catogni and she was Aunt Dolly. The Catognis and I guess it’s an Italian name, I guess they were of Italian origin, and he was a grocer and they bought a piece of land that had been a part of Oaklands near Round Hill, and so I guess that’s how they happened to know each other and they ran off and got married because I think her father didn’t approve or something. In any case, they were happily married, although he died fairly young, he was only fifty and she lived on another forty years. So all the time I knew her, she was a widow and they had one son, William Watts, my mother’s first cousin. He was my mother’s age, so I didn’t know him very well, but I had some contact with him. We used to go out a lot to see Aunt Dolly and it was a place where I could play and it was a place between, well, the house that Michael lives in, that was aunt Dolly’s house and from there over to Round Hill, was all cornfields. and there was a little cemetery there that was moved to Fairview back in the 1970’s when they developed it. All the shopping malls on the other side of the interstate are built upon what was farmland in those days and a good deal of the development around 10th street and out towards the airport, most of the houses there were built after the war. At one point, almost all of that land had been part of Oaklands, but when I was alive and knew about it, it had been sharply reduced, but it was still quite a large farm and it was a working �farm. They had dairy cows in the barn behind down what was close to the creek and a vegetable garden that was down in the yard on the East side of the house and towards the rear, there was a huge vegetable and flower garden that Aunt Dolly kept. She had a black live in maid whose name is, we called her Rya but her name was Maria, and they lived there together for thirty years or something, just the two of them. KT 45:24- So on your aunt’s old house, where we live now, there is old, I want to say they are like old platforms, old foundations, have you seen those when you went down there? ES 45:40- I may have done, but I don’t remember it. KT 45:45- Okay. ES 45:49- The house that you’re in was built around 1917. There was a house before there that burned down around 1897, I think it was because number thirty-two on the list, John Allen Watts, decided— he was the owner of it—and decided to develop it in the 1890s, which was a boom period for Roanoke; it tripled in size every ten years over a couple of decades. He turned it over to a land development company and they sold off pieces of it and some of the houses along 10th street, what I knew as 10th street extension, were some of the original chunks taken out of Oaklands and sold to other people. Some of those people, the Hunt family, married into one of the families that is related to me. There’s another one whose name I forgot, one of the big houses that’s still there right at the end of Rockland across 10th street, there’s a big old house there, and it was built in this period. The Catognis were one of the people who moved into the area during this period. If you look at that book I gave you, it talks about this to get some idea. They laid out some streets and so forth, but the boom came to an end and it reverted to the Watts family so that Oakland development company went bankrupt, but the land came back into the Watts family and that is why my Aunt Dolly was living there. Her son, another William Watts, moved into the other little building, I think it used to be a barn when I was little, or a shed, they had farm vehicles in there, onions to dry, and things like that. KT 48:24- So it was a plantation, was it ever a slave owning plantation? ES 48:28- Oh yes. One of the largest slave owning plantations, maybe the largest in Roanoke County. Up here at the top of the list, Elizabeth Breckinridge, the Breckinridge family lived in Botetourt County, kind of just the other side of Tinker Mountain, and they owned another very �large Plantation up there, which I think was the largest, or one of the two or three largest in Botetourt County. So yes, they definitely were slave owners. KT 49:12- Do you have any idea what the numbers were? ES 49:16- I could look it up and tell you, I think, but I don’t know right off, I would say somewhere around one hundred, but I’m not certain about that. KT 49:32- So I know you’ve done research on some of this stuff, what was something that was appealing to you when you began your research? Or even as you went through it. ES 49:46- Well, appealing about them or appealing about me doing the research? Because they are two different things. I mean I love looking at old papers, deciphering old handwriting and things like that, so. KT 50:01- Appealing in the sense of the information you were gathering. ES 50:04- Well I liked very much, discovering the background of a lot of things that I had seen and known, and heard about when I was young and grew up surrounded by people I had known that I had no idea how they were connected to me, and found out about it through doing this. A lot of people that my parents had talked about, sort of names that I’d heard now and then, but until I was quite old, I never much paid attention to kinship systems. My mother used to go see somebody, whose name wasn’t a real name, but everybody called her Beauty, and her last name was Persinger. I had no idea who they were. There is a street in Roanoke named Persinger and they lived on the street and they owned a fairly big piece of land called Persinger and they are in some distant way kin to me and I was really pleased to find that out. I love maps and I really enjoy reading the documents about how Edward Watts put together the plantation, bought other pieces of land and in some cases traded one piece for another piece and sort of assembled this enormously large estate that is the plantation. And it was really interesting to me, I knew absolutely nothing about it, about what they grew on the plantation, what the crops were. In the early days it was possible to grow things and make a living there, but later, just economically wasn’t feasible. Things like wheat, one of the bg products was flour. They grew the wheat and they milled the flour and then they shipped the flour to Richmond, where there was big market, but the quantities that you can grow in the Roanoke area are just too small to make it viable product in this day and age. But it must have lasted a fairly long time �because there was, until fairly recently, there was the Roanoke City Mill, it's on Jefferson Street, near ... do you know where Victory Stadium was? Right there, there is probably still a stadium there. KT 53:12- No. ES 53:11- Well, you know where Jefferson Street is? KT 53:16- I’m really bad at directions. Apparently I suck at geography. ES 53:18- Well Jefferson Street is the main street in Roanoke and it runs from the middle of downtown, comes straight up. KT 53:26- By the Virginia Room? ES 53:27- Beside the Virginia Room, yeah. KT 53:30- I know, I know. ES 53:31- If you keep going down that, you come to a bridge that goes over the Virginian Railroad Tracks, the round arch bridge, and just on the other side of that, on the left side of Jefferson Avenue as you go South toward Southwest Roanoke, there was a flour mill that was called the Roanoke City Mills and it had I think four big, concrete, sort of silo-like towers that they stored the grain and the flour and stuff in, and they produced I think what it was called was Metropolitan and Light White Flour. It was one of those brands they sell. In any case, it was a functioning business through most of my childhood and at some point they had a fire there and they had to spray water all over the flour and those things and it rotted and produced the worst stench that you can ever imagine. It must have gone out of business quite some time ago, but I don’t know if it was ever demolished, I don’t know what they did with it. You should go look at it, if you’re interested in this kind of stuff. KT 54:55- Yeah, I’ll go drive down the street and I’ll let you know. ES �55:00- So anyway, I was very much interested in knowing the background of the past, and you know, I have a lot of admiration for the life that these people lived, and they were pioneers when they came to the area. There was nothing there, hacked it out of the woods. I don’t think there were any Native Americans left by that time in this area, at least not in numbers sufficient to be any sort of threat. One of the children, twenty second on the list, Mary Scott Watts, the Gamble family, who had been living in Richmond, moved to Florida and she went to stay with them and fell in love with her first cousin and they married and that was still Indian country. There were Indian raids on the settlers and she wrote back that Andrew Jackson put an end to that, but the hardships of life, I mean look at the ten children and the number of them that died very young, is quite striking and is very different from modern age. The chances of survival were limited and the son William Watts, who carried on the line, his wife Mary Jane Allen died when she was thirty. So, it is also very interesting to read about their engagements in the politics and things of their time. Edward Watts was a general, it was a title he got in the war of 1812 because he was in the Virginia Militia; he was a high ranking figure in the Virginia militia and up until after the Civil War, the United States didn’t have a standing army, the different states had militias. That’s why there is a second amendment, so that people could arm themselves to join the state militias. They never had any clue that it was going to be applied to some of the things that it is applied to now. But then William Watts, his son, was a colonel in the civil war, which meant that he raised a regiment in the area and went off and led it and they fought in Northern Virginia and in the Peninsula Campaigns. I don’t think William Watts, number 321, I’m not sure, I don’t think he fought in World War 1, but his son was in World War 2 and then did a station in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska. They talk in the materials that I’ve looked at, they do talk about issues in the day, there was a lot of anguish about the events leading up to the civil war and they were all in the party that did not want secede, they wanted to find a compromise, but they all still felt much more loyalty to the state then they did to the federal government, and so when the state seceded, they went along with that. KT 59:52- So I’ve interviewed a few people asking them what the word Oaklands means to them, and they don’t know what it is. Back when you were growing up, did anyone know what Oaklands was? Was that still an alive idea, or was it kind of people just didn’t know what it was unless someone told them? ES 1:00:12- I think outside of the family and maybe a few close friends, nobody knew. KT 1:00:17- So it's not surprising that nobody knows? ES 1:00:20- No. I don’t think, no, unless they were history buffs, they wouldn’t know because well beginning in 1890, even really beginning before that, it would be broken up, but it, I think in 1890 �is roughly when John Allen Watts, number 32 there, he was a lawyer and he’s the one that set up the development company, he moved into downtown , well it's not downtown quite, the place they lived is totally gone now, it's also right down Jefferson Street, in an area known as Orchard Hill, but I think the hill has been totally leveled now. The Community Hospital has taken over the whole thing. It started Community Hospital was down at one end of it, but there used to be a residential community behind it and I think that is all gone, and that’s where he lived. KT 1:01:29- So is there anything else you’d like to add before we close the interview? ES 1:01:32- I don’t think so. I mean there is almost nothing you could ask me about Roanoke that I wouldn't probably be able to babble on for a while about. I was going to ask you, have you read a book called Truevine? KT 1:01:53- No. ES 1:01: 44- You should do that. It’s about Roanoke. You might even be able to get in touch with the woman who wrote it, who I think maybe she must live somewhere close to it. Her name is Beth Macy. The basic story of it is about two albino black brothers who— Truevine is the name a little town , somewhere East of Roanoke—and they were according to the family story, they were kidnapped by a circus recruiter and displayed as freaks. This started back around 1900 I think, earlier than that maybe. In any case, their mother eventually went and found them and brought them home. It’s a complicated story and I’m not going to tell you much more about it than that, but in their later years, they lived in Roanoke. They lived just off 10th street on the Southern side of the railroad tracks in a little black area up there, but it’s a fascinating story and it talks a lot about the situation of blacks in Roanoke at the time. She says that Roanoke was one of the worst cities in the old south for segregation and mistreatment of blacks, which I think is an exaggeration and maybe worse than an exaggeration, maybe even just wrong, but there was in the 1890’s a really terrible lynching in Roanoke that if you’re interested in the history of Roanoke you can look up and read about. Somebody wrote a book about it and tried to figure out why this happened and said that J. Allen Watts, number 32, tried to be like Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird and went out to try to tell the crowd to go home. It didn’t work, but he made the effort anyway. In any case, it's an interesting read and if you’re doing a thing about the history of Roanoke you really ought to look at that, but other than that I won’t say any more. KT 1:05:05- Alrightie, well thank you so much for interviewing with me. ES 1:05:07- Hope you’ve enjoyed it. I hope you get—is this your thesis or something or your project? �KT 1:05:26- Just a project that I’m working on. ES 1:05:26- Just a project. Hope you get —top marks for your project. KT 1:05:25- Well thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with English Showalter Subject The topic of the resource Oaklands Description An account of the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with English Showalter Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Date: 13 May 2017 Location: Mr. Showalter's residence in Chevy Chase, Maryland Duration: 1:05:26 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kerri Taylor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13 May 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource English Showalter; Kerri Taylor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShowalterEnglish https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4085/NiamkeStephen.mp3 fb5c3a4265400902c2e8a2e557cde082 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4085/NiamkeStephen.1.pdf daf5d32c728071bad7a4f1f1ebf7170e PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Stephen Niamke Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Interviewee: Stephen Niamke Date: 19 April 2017 Location: Melrose-Rugby Center Duration: 54.18 Transcription prepared by: Kerri Taylor KT 0:00- My name is Kerri Taylor and I am interviewing Stephen Niamke today at the Melrose Rugby Center and we are going to ask him about his experiences in North West Roanoke. (the date is April 19, 2017) KT 0:09- Can you tell me about your childhood? SN 0:11: Uh, that’s kind of broad. Well I did grow up here in Roanoke, here in Northwest Roanoke. I live in the same house that my parents moved into in 1962. It’s about eight blocks north of here, so I have a lot of memories about this neighborhood. That building over there—that store there used to be an ice-cream shop. I used to ride my bike down here and get ice-cream. It was a very active neighborhood; we had a lot of children about the same age on my block, which is Franwell Avenue. So we would play football in the street in the summertime and we would play Monopoly in the basement and basketball in my backyard—we had a basketball court in the backyard. I played on the football team starting when I was nine; I practiced right up the street about two blocks up the street where the school that’s there now is, that’s called Roanoke Academy, which wasn’t there at the time. It was a school called Monroe Junior High School. There’s this huge field that’s still there and we’d practice there. So what I’m saying is that it was a very active neighborhood. I’ve ridden my bike all over Roanoke, particularly this neighborhood when I was a pretty small kid. KT 1:40- Is the neighborhood still active? SN: 1:42 It’s not even close to where it was. You know, it’s not just the neighborhood, this neighborhood. It’s the whole culture [that] has changed. Children aren’t outside playing in the street like they used to. So no, it’s not. This neighborhood is totally different than it was when I was a kid and even as a young adult. How would I describe the difference? Oh, there are so many things. Number one, you don’t see children outside playing in the street and if you do, my guess is that somebody might complain about the fact that they are making so much noise. I mean it's just a different culture. I don’t know the percentage, but I think it’s mostly renters here rather than homeowners. So that aspect has changed, which means that—and this is my bias, but I think it’s pretty accurate— is that I don’t think renters invest as much in their community; they don’t care as much. I think that is reflected in what you see in terms of upkeep of the houses. There’s clearly more criminal activity. At least I’m more aware of it, maybe there was more then, but I don’t think so. My mother was never, my mother and father, mostly my mother, was never worried. If we went bike riding, you know, she wasn’t worried we were going to disappear. I �mean we literally rode our bikes. I had a friend when I was 13 years old I had a friend named Ricky and we would literally, one summer we tried to play basketball at every court we could find in the city of Roanoke. It was just, “Mom, going bike riding.” That was it. And you just can’t do that now. Particularly if you are a younger child, I think I was 13 then, but I was bike riding when I was nine or ten years old and I was a little guy, so it’s just the whole sense of the environment is different. SN 4:00- The classic example that it is the fact that we don’t have a grocery store in this neighborhood. If you go over here to this CVS, which is about a block away, there used to be a Kroger and then there was a Super Rx Pharmacy. I don’t even think Super Rx exists anymore. But that’s where we did our grocery shopping. If we wanted to do grocery shopping, or I need to, if I want to go out and buy some eggs real quick, I can’t run down the street like I used to when I was a kid and my mother would say, “Go ride you bike down the street and go get me some eggs and a pack of cigarettes.” I can’t do that now; I have to drive all the way over to Valley View or Towers or something. So the entire flavor of the neighborhood has changed in terms of the interconnectedness and the activity and the family orientation. All of that has changed. KT 4:54 Do you have any children? And if so, can you describe some of the experiences they’ve had versus some of the experiences you had growing up? SN 5:01 I have one child; she’s probably about your age. She’s probably a little older than you are. She’s about to turn 27. In terms of her growing up, we, she was born in Ohio and we moved back down here when she was 6. At first we moved to Martinsville, and then we moved over to the Raleigh Court neighborhood near Patrick Henry, and that’s where she grew up. Yeah, I would say that her childhood was considerably different from mine. Partially because of who she is. She just has a whole different set of interests. She’s a musician. I’m not a musician. She was not into sports. I was very much into sports. I have a twin brother and two older brothers; we were all close together in age and we all played sports and she was an only child. So I think her experience was not, was more oriented towards the school, where mine was more oriented toward the neighborhood. I don’t know. I was pretty active in the school too. We went to a small private school: Roanoke Catholic, right over here by the Civic Center, so I kind of lived the divided life. There was a—the neighborhood was an African American World and the school was a European American world. And school was dominated by playing basketball and football and I got involved in some elected positions too like I was treasurer of the class. So her life was considerably different. Clearly, there was more diversity amongst her friends than there was about mine. I mean Roanoke is very segregated and my lifestyle as a child really showed that and it continues to be very segregated, but I think she had a broader spectrum in the relationships that she developed. But for the most part, I think those are the most obvious differences. KT 7:28- Can you explain the African American roles you were talking about when you were growing up? �SN 7:31- Well it’s a black neighborhood. I mean, it wasn’t that there weren’t any white families there, but there were very few. I mean I could, on a weekend, I could come home from school on Friday and if I stayed in the neighborhood all weekend, I wouldn’t see a white person unless I was watching TV. And on the other hand, if I was at school, I remember there was a time when we were going downtown, from the school, from Roanoke Catholic, we were going downtown to some kind of event in Downtown Roanoke and we had to walk through the Gainesboro neighborhood. We were going to walk from the school to downtown and I remember one of my classmates asking, they were afraid of walking through a black neighborhood, they asked if they could walk with me. Like first of all, I told them there’s nothing to be scared of, and number two, if there was, there’s nothing I can do for you. But it just shows the difference between how concentrated the neighborhoods were at that time. And you know, when I think about it now, you know the Melrose Rugby neighborhood Forum, this neighborhood group is an all-black organization. And there’s no white members right now. There’s some people that come by and I think we are about to have somebody join. That’s not an intentional thing on our part; it’s just the makeup of the neighborhood. So it may be a little more diverse than it was, you know forty-five years ago, but I don’t think it’s that different. KT 9:19- You mentioned that Roanoke is still segregated. Is it this part specifically or more areas that branch out? SN 9:26-Northwest is black and relatively poor. Southeast is white and relatively poor. Southwest is white and relatively rich, and Northeast is probably the smallest area and more industrial, but I think it’s probably predominantly working class white. I think if you ask any Roanoker who’s been here for any appreciable amount of time, they’d pretty much give you the same description. KT 9:56- So have you noticed any differences between your neighborhood and some of those other neighborhoods? And can you describe them? SN 10:04- Differences? Yeah, I mean what I just described. Number one, there are economic differences. There are racial differences. And Southeast and Northwest actually have a lot in common. I wish I had this; I met with a city council member yesterday and gave him a list of twelve concerns that I have for the neighborhood and there are things like there are problems with crimes, problems with drugs, there’s dilapidated housing, there’s transient populations. I don’t think we have the issue of homelessness here that they do in Southeast, but that’s because there’s a homeless shelter. There’s a program that feeds off of the homelessness for lack of a better description. There’s, this is a food desert, I believe that’s, no I don’t think Southeast is a food desert. [cell phone rings] sorry about that. KT It's okay. His phone was ringing. SN 11:21: I will turn that off. KT 11:24- You’re fine. SN 11:25- This is a food desert. Okay, that’s my client calling me, she’s going to have to wait. There is… �KT 11:39- You were talking about food deserts. SN 11:41 Yeah. There is a food desert and I am trying to remember those twelve things I listed for the city council member. Actually, I may have it in my car, but those are the major issues. I think there is some employment issues. There’s some transportation issues. And the biggest thing that concerns me about this area, and the same kind of thing exists in Southeast, and because it is a food desert, you have these little mini marts like these stores right here and there, the proportion of healthy foods that they provide compared to the amount of alcohol and tobacco that they sell is a concern. It’s a major concern. If you walk from the CVS right here, down to 11 street, there are six businesses and their primary product is alcohol. And even if you just go and I actually counted the steps one day and did a presentation in city council expressing my concern, if you just go from CVS to 17 street, which is a distance of four blocks, no it’s not even four blocks— let me think, CVS, it’s just two blocks—there are 4 establishments that primarily sell alcohol. So when I did that presentation, I think it was primarily to the board of zoning appeals actually, the question I asked was if they were proud of the fact that they were concentrating this area with alcohol sales and what were they trying to accomplish? th th You don’t see that anywhere else in Roanoke. Well you might see it in Southeast, but so to get back to your question about what the neighborhoods have in common, it seems to me like the poorer neighborhoods have issues with high alcohol sales and it’s just not healthy, you know? My angle with that presentation with Board of Zoning Appeals is you get, you know, if we really want to be proud of Roanoke, let’s be proud of all of it, you know? And I was sarcastic and I said something like, “welcome to the city of Roanoke, we poison people.” You know? Cause that’s the message that’s being put out. Literally less than a block from where we are sitting right now. SN 14:40- Then on the other hand you have some neighborhoods that are very wealthy. Greater Deyerle, I mean the houses there are incredible. Old southwest is not necessarily a, the housing stock is not the same as Greater Deyerle, but they see older houses that people have really fixed up and have taken pride in. Old Southwest has some issues too, you know, they have some drugs and some prostitution, and some of these little stores that sell high volumes of alcohol, but they also have people who are organized around those issues and are more aware of those types of issues. There was a neighborhood leader who you may have heard about who recently passed away, who she was very dynamic in starting Old Southwest as an organization back in the seventies and it continues to be strong. So then I think about Southwest, the part of Southwest that is near the hospital. There’s a lot of money in that area too. The point is if you look at the income levels of the people that live in the neighborhood, then you can see that there’s some differences in terms of how planning is taking place. You wouldn’t have a concentration of four businesses that serve so much alcohol within a two mile radius in the Southwest or Carillion area of Southwest. It just wouldn’t happen. KT 16:35- Can you explain to me what it is about the alcohol selling that really seems to bother you? Is it just the health thing or does it go beyond that? SN 16:45 �Well, it goes beyond that. What bothers me is, I don’t understand the rationale for that kind of planning. If you have that volume of alcohol in front of any group of people, there’s going to be a higher group of people who consume it. Plain and simple. And that to me is a problem. It suggests one of two things; it suggests either the planning is done without any forethought by people who just don’t care. If you want to sell alcohol, sure here’s your license, but here’s your store so and so. Or is done with some forethought, that somebody would like for it to be that way. I would hate to think that that would be true, but it raises that question. Why? Why is this deciding that way? That’s what bothers me. You know, I know some of the city planners. I’ve known them for years and I would consider some of them to be friends of mine and even though we can maintain friendships, every once in a while there’s a clash. Right now there’s this issue of it's called, there’s this rezoning that the city wants to do where they are dividing units of property into five thousand feet instead of seven thousand and it creates the opportunity to build more units and the city wants to move forward with that. Well the neighborhood’s not interested in that because then you’re going to have more congestion and most people know, I personally have four cars, so it's not uncommon for an adult or a family to have multiple cars for a single household. So you’re starting to put in new households and people are having the same amount of cars, where do you park all those cars? And so now, we have issues with—and you may noticed coming up and down the street people just park on their front yard and it just kills the grass, and it makes it muddy and it make property values drop and all that stuff and again the point is, what is the forethought in the thinking? On the one hand, I can see you have more properties; you have more taxes, that’s more money for the city. But what’s the quality of life in the neighborhood? You know? So it's that type of thinking that we kind of go back and forth on. Sometimes they just don’t seem to get it and they’re probably saying the same thing about us. KT 19:56- So, the city planning that you mentioned, I looked at a document that talked about Williamson Road, what are your thoughts on the city planning of Williamson Road? SN: 20:07: Hmm Williamson Road, the way I see it, is a business district. It’s a strip of businesses and then there’s neighborhoods outside of those businesses, that’s fine. Um, in fact I wouldn’t have an issue with Orange Avenue becoming more like that, where there is this business community. The one, the caveat for me is, I want, I’m trying to get the money to stay in the neighborhood. I don’t know how or if that can happen, but I’m trying to get the money to stay in the neighborhood because that will address things like dilapidated housing or vacant lots or just how people take care of their beautification and curb appeal of the area. So I’m fine with Williamson Road. I don’t spend a whole lot of time over there so, I mean I have some clients that live over there over that way. I actually have one client that lives on Williamson Road, so I don’t have a real strong opinion of it. I’ve had some bad experiences over there as a child. I remember, and this again illustrates how segregated Roanoke was, the same friend named Ricky that I played basketball with, we went bike riding and found ourselves over in that area. I guess we were about thirteen to fourteen years old and didn’t really know where we were and these two, this car full of guys called us the ‘n’ word (nigger) and started chasing us. KT 21:50- What year was this? �SN 21:52- This would have been, let’s see ’74 ’75. In fact, I posted a tribute to him. Ricky passed away when he was twenty two, and I posted a tribute to him a couple years back and I told that story about when we were riding bikes and these, I’m assuming these guys were in their twenties maybe, they were old enough to drive. They called us the ‘n’ word and we got out of there as fast as we could. You know, what I liked about it was, we went cutting through the alleys and all that, where they couldn’t drive their car, but what I liked about that story was Rick and I stayed together, you know, he didn’t go one way and I went another, we stayed together and basically got out of that neighborhood. When you mention Williamson Road, that memory comes to mind for me, automatically, but as far as how it's designed and the city planning, I don’t seem to have an issue, it seems like it’s a thriving. I mean there’s an organization Williamson Road Area Business Association, I believe is what it's Called WRAPPA, It’s been going strong. I mean it's got good leadership. Wendy Jones is the president and has been for years. They have good leadership, but it seems like they are very organized about how they promote and maintain their businesses and I would love to see something like that. In fact, my meeting with a city council member yesterday was about replicating the business incubator in Vinton that was started about two years ago. I want to, I am very good friends with the woman that runs that program and I want to bring that to Northwest Roanoke to just kind of stimulate the economy and bring some creativity and bring some organization to this area. So we’re looking at this property that this city council member just bought that’s on 11 street. 11 street used to be a thriving, kind of economic center for this neighborhood. And right now, it's not impressive at all. I have a client; I have two clients that live in an assisted living place, two blocks from 11 street. I’m over here all the time. I will be over there; I’m going to take one of my clients out there this evening. It’s nothing for me to get approached by a woman who is trying to make some money and it’s nothing. That happens. It happens right here, sometimes. That again kind of reflects what’s happening in the neighborhood. th th th KT 24:49- So the way Grandin is set up, it has businesses, it has a movie theatre, it has restaurants all in that area. Do you think that that’s a better model for a community or something like Williamson is? SN 24:55- Yeah, it’s beautiful SN 25:01- Clearly I like Grandin better. KT 25:05- Okay, so if you had the choice, you would pick something like Grandin? SN 25:09- Yeah, because Grandin— okay so I’m also chair of the Roanoke City Democratic Committee, so I’m involved in local politics and we just set up an office over in the Colab on Grandin Road and part of the reason we wanted to be over there, number one, we had a member who was generous enough to fund that office space for us, but we like that environment because you have the Grandin theater, which is family oriented, but also very progressive. You have Roanoke Natural Foods, that is health oriented, and I used to be on their board; health-oriented, family-oriented, progressive, and conscientious. There’s my other phone (ringing). It’s that sense of community where people are coming together and organizing themselves around their values. I clearly prefer that than a business that’s there just to make �money. The impression that I get, and again I’m a thousand times removed from Williamson Road, but they are businesses for the sake of business and those businesses you described over on Grandin are over there because of people and values and community, totally different concept. KT 26:39: What are some of the values in this area? Some of the people and concepts SN 26:45: You know, I don’t think, well here’s the thing, I mentioned that I’m chair of the Democratic Committee, here’s what people aren’t’ paying attention to, is Republicans and Democrats aren’t as different as everybody thinks. Young people and old people aren’t as different as everybody thinks. Black people and white people aren’t as different as everybody thinks. Yeah, there are cultural nuances, you know? I’m not real excited about St. Patrick's’ Day, it does nothing for me culturally, but when my family, when I’ve led Kwanzaa celebrations for the city, I see white people get excited, because they appreciate what Kwanzaa is about. So my point is, that the values we hold as human beings aren’t that different. So what’s valued on Williamson Road and what’s valued in on Grandin Road and what’s valued here are all the same stuff. People want their children to be healthy and happy. People want to be able to work jobs that they enjoy and also meet their needs. People want, this is going to sound political, but people want health care. You know? When you get to be, I’m fifty six, when you get to be my age, you begin to look at life a little bit differently. You look at retiring and you look at, you know, how long am I going to be here, until I’m eighty, ninety, one hundred? You know what is it? Everybody as they approach those years, they look at it the same way. They want health care. They want to be able to retire comfortably. It’s not that the values are different. It's about how we get there. This is what we disagree on. SN 28:28- I just had a conversation with my daughter and her fiancé about their relationship and they have hit a couple of bumps in the road and I basically explained to them that relationships are about agreeing on how. How will we, what are our values, and how will we express those? How do we live those out? How do we relate? What are the things that we’re doing to promote those values? So the values are the same, its people value spirituality, especially here in the South. You know, religion is a big deal. People take a different approach to it. People value their health. People value their family. People want security and safety; it's all the same stuff. It's just about how you move forward in making it happen. KT 29:20- What is currently under development in Northwest to change the area? SN 29:28-Okay. Wow, okay. Right now, this is a target area for community development block grants, what we call CDBG funds. The housing authority has applied for this multi-million dollar grant a couple of times and has been denied a couple of times. The idea is to address the condition of the housing and to promote health care. There are a number of organizations. There’s United Way, Healthy Roanoke Valley, neighborhood groups like this one, there’s an Invest Health initiative. They’re trying to bring a grocery store here, possibly a co-op. I’d like to see a co-op. So there are clearly some discussions and plans in their infancy I would say to address some of the issues that we have already discussed. The question once again is how, do you make that happen? How do you involve the people who already live here, which is, I was glad that the city council member was willing to meet with me. �One of the things he asked me was where do you live and I said I live right here in the neighborhood about six to eight blocks that way. And then he talked about two other leaders who I believe both of them live in this neighborhood; I’m not exactly sure where they live. But his angle was I want to involve the people in the neighborhood. SN 31:20- So I think there is clear recognition that there are things like the fact that it is a food desert and we need access to healthy food and reduction of alcohol and tobacco sales. I think people recognize that and there’s some work in place. In fact there have been a couple of surveys that have been put in place and that have been put out and there is one we are getting ready to put out as well to try and collect that data about how people feel about living here so that things can be addressed programmatically. But it just hasn’t gotten to the point where—I’ll give you another example real quick. 32:02-There’s a nightclub about five or six blocks this way that has had issues with opening and closing because people were in there doing illegal actives, you know, selling drugs or alcohol or whatever. Okay, well, Second Harvest Food Bank has taken over that building and they want to put a community kitchen in there where they teach people cooking skills, which I think is incredible. It’s just another example of something I think real concrete is happening on a broader institutional level to address the specific problem in this neighborhood. But what I was just about to say is this hasn’t gotten to the point where these programs are really in place and have started having an effect, it's just a lot of—there’s some plans and some talking, but we just haven’t gotten to that place and I think, what I’m curious to see is obviously there’s going to be some disagreement as ideas come forward. I’m curious to see how that gets negotiated and I want to be involved in those discussions. We’re helping to facilitate some of those or work some of those conflicts. KT 33:21- So you mentioned when you were growing up, this store right here was an ice-cream store? SN 33:30- Yeah, Hoss! KT 33:31- There was a Kroger and there was a pharmacy? What do you think was a reason that these businesses just seemed to be pushed out and…? SN 33:43- I can tell you why, at least I can tell you what I’ve heard about why Kroger left. What I heard was and I think I witnessed some of this too, is that there was, there were more disturbances around the store. I remember coming down here and just looking at the parking lot and just seeing that there was trash and broken glass and stuff like that. So there was and I can’t tell you what the source of it was, I was too young, and you know, I was caught, from age fourteen to—I left Roanoke when I was nineteen, I left to go to Virginia Western Community College for my first year of college, but from age fourteen to nineteen I wasn’t caught up in what was happening in the neighborhood. I was caught up in playing football and basketball, so I wasn’t paying attention to all those things, but what I heard was that there was so much disruption in the neighborhood that the store, I don’t know if they had some financial problems and felt like they needed to move or what. I don’t think it was the city planning thing, and I’m trying to remember if the store, I think it sat empty for a while, just a building was there and then they eventually came along and then I think just paved over the area, just crushed the building and it was just a vacant lot. Then CVS came, I can’t tell you what year. This may have happened when I was, I went off to college and then I went and worked in Ohio State for a while. Then when I came back, everything was �different. There was a CVS there and then they built the fire station. So I don’t know exactly why. SN 35:41- What concerns me again, it goes back to the planning, is someone should have been paying attention to talking about and addressing the fact that all of a sudden there was no grocery stores there anymore. KT 35: 57- How does the community feel about that? It must be very frustrating having to travel long distances to go the grocery store. SN 36:04- I can’t say that I’ve had concrete conversations with people about how they feel. I can talk about how I feel as a current member and as someone who grew up here. You know, its, my feelings, I have two things when I think about my feelings. Number one is: How healthy can we be under those circumstances, particularly if there are other related issues like, people don’t have cars or so they don’t really have, they are forced to have to grocery shop at this store right here and feed their family from this store right here. That’s the first thing is that that really bothers me. And the second thing goes back to what I said a minute ago, is you, I see the city of Roanoke. I love Roanoke and I love the people on city council and the administration, so I’m not talking bad about anybody, but I’m looking at things like, we rebuilt the library downtown. Raleigh Court got a new library. Williamson Road is in the midst of building a new library. They’re talking about rebuilding the library here in Melrose. Vinton got a brand new library. Wonderful. I mean I spend a lot of time in the library, I love it, you know? But, couldn’t that same energy be put into building, doing something to address housing or the fact that we don’t have a grocery store in an area. So the energy, my feeling goes back to where are we putting our energy? What are our priorities you know? I mean libraries are important, but I think food is more important. If I had the choice between a store and a library, a grocery store and a library, I would choose the grocery store. KT 38:23- what do you know about the history of the neighborhood you live in? And since you’re president of the neighborhood forum, also about the history of this area that we are in? SN 38:32: Okay. Well they are the same. Where I live and this area are the same neighborhood. I know that, okay the city council member I met with yesterday, his name is John Garland. John and I have a good relationship, we kind of laugh at each other because I am chair of the democratic committee, and he’d beat out one of our candidates out and he barely won. He also jokes about being republican, but we still have a good relationship. Yesterday he talked about the fact that he grew up in this neighborhood. He actually grew up in the Williamson Road area. So he knew this area very well; he wants to try and bring it back. But he described, John’s a little bit older than me, he described the neighborhood as being all white and he said it changed because, and this isn’t just him talking, I think it’s a pretty much well documented fact. It changed because what he described as white flight, which isn’t a term he coined, it’s a common description. So this neighborhood used to be all white, the house I live in was built in 1941. I assume that the people who built it and the first family that lived in it was white. And we bought it from another black family, so I assume that, I could probably go back through the records, somewhere in the 50’s the neighborhood began to change and I think the �story of my, the house where I live, is probably pretty typical to what’s happened throughout the neighborhood, because now clearly, it's not predominately white. 40:28- And then I understand that the city literally moved some black families from the area of the city where the Civic Center sits now. That whole area used to be predominately black or all black and now it’s the civic center and these other businesses, the post office and all that, and so those families were all relocated. Some of them came to this neighborhood, some of them went to other areas of the city so I know that kind of history. I don’t know, I haven’t done any reading or hard research, it's just something you just kind of know, you hear about it. I know some of the older African American people who are still here kind of still angry about that. So I know that kind of stuff. I know that Roanoke has a history of violent racism, where there were lynchings and things like that. KT 41:33- Are there elements of that racism still around? SN 41:38- Of that kind of bigotry and hatred? KT 41:42- Not as violent, because people can’t lynch anymore, some lasting elements. SN 41:49- I think racism is kind of like a chameleon, I mean it's still here, it's just changed form. Just recently I was driving; I went to a funeral in Southwest Roanoke and on my way out of Roanoke somebody drives by and sticks the confederate flag out of their window. So I mean racism isn’t gone, so when you say elements of racism, sure is. It’s just not as overt and when I think about, when I go back to the designs and the systems and the fact that we have four businesses that sale high alcohol sales in a neighborhood, this isn’t, that ain’t Williamson Road out there, it’s in a neighborhood. So, these four businesses are literally surrounded by people's houses, I mean there’s a couple churches there too, that to me is institutional racism and it's not that anybody sat down and said okay, how can I create alcoholism in the Northwest Roanoke, I don’t think anybody sat down and took out a pen and mapped out their strategy, It's just a lack of valuing people that leads to a lack of forethought, that leads to that type of planning. Or actually, it's probably more accurate to say it’s a lack of planning because the city planners that I know, if they really thought about it and looked at how the pieces of the puzzle were kind of falling into place, they would say, “Woah! Hold on a second, we’re not, we don’t want that in Northwest Roanoke!” But, when you have a prejudice or a bias, it comes out in everything you do. When you, because, you don’t have the ability to plan anything else. SN 44:07- Okay, I’ll go back to politics for a minute. Let’s talk about women’s rights and women’s reproductive rights and you talk about a government that is dominated by men, okay? Can they effectively plan health care for women? No. They can’t do it, you know? If, let’s go back to the questions that you are asking me today. If we want to fix this community, who are the best people to be at the table to plan that? It’s people that live in the community. You’re not going to go to Richmond and fix together a committee and say, “Hey, let’s fix Northwest Roanoke!” because they don’t have the perspective, so you gotta have the people who best know the issue or the problem to be involved in the solution. So when I talk about institutional racism, I’m not pointing fingers at somebody and saying, “What’s wrong with you?” I’m saying do you recognize what your prejudice and your bias is and have you taken steps to counteract that so that when you develop a plan, it doesn’t carry your bias, okay? So KT 45:35- What does the word Oaklands mean to you? SN �45:37- What is it? KT 45:39- The word Oaklands. SN 45:51- Oaklands? Like Oakland California Oakland? KT 45:45- It’s the right word, but not Oakland California. SN 45:47- Nothing at all; I don’t know that word, that term. KT 45:50- Okay, well Oaklands was a plantation that was slave owning and it was right near Rockland Avenue. It used to be owned by the Watt’s family. What kind of feelings do you get knowing that there was a slave owning plantation in the area? SN 25:05- Oh it gives me the creeps. I went to a, I’m a trainer— all this stuff here on the table is my team building stuff and I went to a training, I did a training in South Boston, which is close to, kind of like half way between, kind of closer to Danville. It was on a plantation and they talked about the fact that there were 300 enslaved Africans that lived there and I swear that night—that night I spent the night there. I swear that night I could hear voices. I don’t know if it was literal or not, but it really gave me the creeps. So my gut feeling is how creepy that is that people actually owned other people and regarded them as property. I mean that just blows my mind. I remember when I first heard about the KKK I was like that can’t be, that can’t really be an organization that just hates people because of their skin color. It just can’t be. And then when I found out it was real, it was the same kind of feeling. It was like, really? I mean—so my reaction to that again, it goes back to that question of how can, how did this kind of mentality come to be? And really just being amazed by the impact of that thinking that for centuries, entire generations of people never earned a wage, never owned property, were subject to any form of humiliation of violence that just blows my mind. So when you tell me Oaklands, what that does is tells me the history that kind of brings it closer to home, it makes it more concrete, but it's not a new concept you know? KT 48:34- And the last question I am going to ask you, well I have two more questions. What do you feel you have contributed to the area that you live in. You’re very active in this community. SN 48:45- Not as much as I would've liked. I mean, I put in a lot of time. I’m not sure that I’ve seen the impact that I would like to see, but what a few people have said to me recently is be patient, you know. You plant your seeds and you don’t see your results right away. Developing relationships with the right people who can hear the message that needs to be heard on behalf of so many people who either don’t realize that there's a problem, don’t care there's a problem or don’t believe the problem can be solved because the bulk of the people, not only in this neighborhood, but people in neighborhoods throughout the United States are so caught up in, okay, ‘I work my job and I take care of my family and I go to sleep’, and they don’t they get an inkling of what is happening on the political scene, more so now than in previous years, but they don’t even know what to do about that. People, I’m also an election official and the reason I’m an election official is I want to be sure the polling places are run well. And most people don’t know how to register to vote, or don’t know how to ensure that they’re properly registered and then if they do go to vote, they don’t know �much about the candidates. People have no idea that politics is always taking place. I didn’t know. I wasn’t involved with the democratic committee before. They approached me and said, “Hey I understand that you have some pretty good,” this is basically what they said; “you have some pretty good leadership skills. Will you come lead us?” That’s basically what they said. I said, “Well I’ve never been involved with politics before, but I’ll do it.” And I’ve clearly made some mistakes, because you do when you take on something new. But the point, I’m using myself as example, of somebody who was active in the community and thought I was doing the things that I needed to be doing and came to realize there is this whole other set of things I need to be doing that I wasn’t even aware of. So the average person is, I put it this way, there’s this expression that I heard and is a lesson I continue to use, there are those who don’t know and don’t know they don’t know, and there are those are those who don’t know and know they don’t know, and those who know, but don’t know that they know, and there’s those who know and know that they know. I mean, you transcribe it, you’ll appreciate it more, but there’s just this lack of awareness that the average citizen has. KT 52:28- And the last question I have for you is is what is something only an insider to this neighborhood would know, or if you want to interpret that a different way, what do you want outsiders to know that they don’t know? SN 52:41- I want people to know that it’s really not that bad of a place to live. It's not the prettiest neighborhood; it clearly has some issues, but it also has a lot of potential, and its home. I hear people talking about Northwest Roanoke like they are scared to come over here, like they might get shot or there might be a drug deal or something. I would go anywhere, any time of day with no concern. People talk about gangs, okay, well I ain’t seen a gang. I mean there are so people, there's a house up the street I know, right up the street from me that is involved in some drug dealing. I know because the police have told me and I think I have a pretty good relationship with police officers, but I don’t think it is gang related. I’m not afraid that my house is going to get shot up. There was a time about four or five months ago I’m laying in bed, I heard gunshots, but that’s not a daily thing, you know? So, what would I want, what would I want people to know? I just want people to know that it really is not a bad place to live. I think that is my last question. KT 54:10- Alright, well thank you so much for interviewing with me, and this is going to be the close of our interview. SN 54:15- Okay, great. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Stephen Niamke Subject The topic of the resource Oaklands Description An account of the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Stephen Niamke Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Date: 19 April 2017 Location: Melrose-Rugby Center Duration: 54:18 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kerri Taylor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 April 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Stephen Niamke; Kerri Taylor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NiamkeStephen https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/4084/Chubb-HaleMignon.MP3 a55d10f11734970179a32324cb00fd05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Virginia Mignon Chubb-Hale Subject The topic of the resource Oaklands Description An account of the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Virginia Mignon Chubb-Hale Interviewer: Kerri Taylor Date: 10 November 2017 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Duration: 8:43 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kerri Taylor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10 November 2017 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Virginia Mignon Chubb-Hale; Kerri Taylor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Chubb-HaleMignon https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2734/DickeyFola_[compressed].mp3 62cd81c87960eb0a237f77d3c31a077e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Fola McCray Dickey Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Fola McCray Dickey Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 17 July 2008 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:00:08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 July 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fola McCray Dickey; Carla Lewis Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DickeyFola https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2731/EasleyAlphonza_[compressed].mp3 d71068650651fd66e0e954bdf8e4d07b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Alphonza M. Easley Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Alphonza M. Easley Interviewer: Joey Klein Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 51:25 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alphonza McKinley Easley; Joey Klein Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EasleyAlphonza https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2730/BennettRuth_[compressed].mp3 13fdb5d5ffe46c6c665600d9e61aafc4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2730/Bennett_Ruth.pdf 640edb2a8b56cd848b6ca48ce7bb3b25 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Brent Weigel Interviewer: Ruth Bennett Transcriber: Chelsea Seddon Date: February 23, 2008 BW: Okay. My name is Brent Weigel. The date today is February 23, 2008, and I'm here with Ruth Bennett from Hurt Park Neighborhood and we're at the Jerusalem Baptist Church. We'll talk about some of Ms. Bennett's memories of the area. So, Ms. Bennett, where did you grow up here in the neighborhood? RB: My father bought a house up here, I was, I think, about sixteen or seventeen, something like that. And we lived on Salem Avenue, 1223 Salem Avenue Southwest, which...we tore the house down now, and I just sold the lot a couple weeks ago. I didn't get what I wanted for it, but I took what they give me because it just there, and I'm paying taxes year after year after year, and I needed the money. And my furnace went out when we had that storm... BW: Oh yeah. RB: And I had to have a new furnace put in my house and it took right much money so I just sold the land. Thank the Lord that I got enough to have the furnace put in. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And my children, my oldest child, she's fifty-five now; she started school at Loudon Avenue, on Loudon Avenue Northwest. This is before they finished Hurt Park. And Mrs. Esther Golding (?) was her first grade teacher at Loudon Avenue. Then she moved...they finished Hurt Park and she started in the second or third grade with Ms. Barbara Vann (?), she was her teacher at Hurt Park at that time. Then I got two more children, a daughter and a son that started at Hurt Park and went all the way from grade one to grade six, as far as Hurt Park used to go. Now I don't know what they go now, it's been a long time! But anyway, and then I had four more children and they started at West End, over here? BW: Mmhmm. RB: And they had some kind of line, they say if you live on this side of the street, you go this ways and then...and we had to send our children where they wanted us to send them because they could have started at Hurt Park, too, but they didn't. And when you see all of this (?)...anyway, that's what happened. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And they all finished Hurt Park. They finished high school and I've got three graduates from college. My oldest daughter graduated from Hollins College. She's working on her master’s degree now, she's a teacher. And her name's Robin Boyd (?), she's married. She has two daughters. My next daughter is Angela Bennett and she finished Northern State University in Maryland. She was a social worker. She took sick with a vertebra in her neck and she was paralyzed for two or three years and she had to stop �working, she's on disability now. She's not old enough to get social security. They like giving her five hundred and some dollars to live on and that's no money. BW: A month? RB: A month. Those apartments is three hundred, four hundred. She's having to get off Section Eight because she'd disabled, but at the time, they told us she would never walk again, she would never be able to do anything for herself, but that was a tale, because, now…when she first came home, we all pitched in and helped her...I have seven children, mother of seven children, and she's my second-oldest. And right now she lives in an apartment by herself. She cooks for herself, she keeps her apartment clean, and she's just...and she drives a car. They said she'd never drive, and she's driving 'cause she carries me to the grocery store! 'Cause I don't drive, you know? BW: Yeah. RB: And she's just a self-made person, to decide that she's gonna get better. Now she can't walk by herself, but she, she's in an electric wheelchair. She comes out, some of them grandchildren (?) help her get in the car, fold the wheelchair up and put it in the back. She goes anywhere she wanna go, do most anything she wanna do, so that's a blessing by itself. Now my husband is eighty, and he had a stroke ten years ago, and he can't walk, and the children help him, and I got some neighbors that come in and help us. But he'll never be able to walk 'cause it's been ten years now and he belonged to this church. He was chairman of the Trustee Board for a long time. BW: Mmhmm. Did you meet here in Roanoke? RB: My husband? BW: Yeah. RB: Yeah, uh-huh. And we been married over fifty years. But so far the Lord has kept us together. I look after him, he look after me. But we're doing fine. We own our own home . Then I got four more children under them! Way down the way. And one of them finished Moorestown...Tennessee, Moorestown, Tennessee. She's a nurse. And the others just finished high school, and they work, take care of their families. All of them are married but the one I told you that's in a wheelchair and my son, I have a son, he's never been married, he has two grown sons. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And the things that...mostly I can remember is when they had a housing place up here in Hurt Park that they just tore down? That was before that. And they looked like corn (?) huts. And a lot of people lived there, 'cause it was a low-income, you know, and I never lived there, but people lived there that I know of. But most of the older people that I can remember are just about dead and gone, you know what I mean? BW: Mmhmm. �RB: And that makes a difference. Sometimes we get to talking about different people that we knew and taught our Sunday school or went to Sunday school and you miss them old people! Because at that time, they were the old people and now we are the old people! You know what I mean? So if you're over seventy, you old! BW: Yeah. RB: So I remember a lot of history about things that went on up here. They try to tell me, you remember when this place was here and this place...and I say no, I can't remember all that. BW: Who were some of the people you remember that you respected, back then? RB: Let's see...Ms. Madge Wheaton, she's dead, she was a school teacher. And she went to this church. Ms. Grace Reynolds, she was an elder lady, she sung on the choir. Mr. Moles Younger, he lived on 12 ½ Street, he was an older man, he sung on the choir. Oh, just so many people, you know. I can't think about all of them, but those that were close, that lived closer to us...and Miss Davis...I can't think of Miss Davis' first name, all I know is "Miss Davis". She has a daughter out there and she also has a granddaughter out there that goes to this church. BW: Mmhmm. RB: All of my children went on to this church, all but one. And just people that I grew up with, just about...are dead! You know? They're all gone. BW: Mmhmm. RB: That went to this church and that I knew as friends and neighbors, you know. And that's just about all I can tell you about Hurt Park. And I was...I can't remember how old I was when we first moved to Southwest. We used to call it "The Old Southwest". But I don't know what they call it now, got different names now for this and different names for the other, you know. BW: Mmhmm. RB: But just about all of my children went to start out at Hurt Park School. And Ms. Buelah Caldwell at that time...I think Buelah was the first principal that we had at Hurt Park, then I can remember James Robinson. He used to sell...the city government (?) selling apple butter at that time, and he used to go around and sell apple butter for the city. He was a Republican. I've never been a Republican. But he was a friend of ours, you know. Oh that's just about all I can tell you. I don't know whether I helped, or not. BW: Oh no-RB: Anyway... BW: What was school like back then, when you went to school? RB: Well, schools were segregated. We used to have walk past schools to go to Harrison School over here on Harrison Avenue, where the Harrison Museum is? �BW: Mmhmm. RB: They didn't have buses like they have for kids now. We walked to Allison High School. They called it Lucy Addison High School at that time. BW: Were you walking farther than most kids had to walk? RB: No, some lived further than where we lived, you know. But that...it was segregation. We used to go downtown, to Kress's, we couldn't drink out the same water fountain that you drink out of. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And those kind of things, you know. We couldn't eat at the lunch counters where you all ate at. BW: Mmhmm. RB: Now the ...it was some difference. They could eat where they want to eat. But that's been over fifty years, you know what I mean? So that makes a difference. But I can remember when we used to get on the bus and we had to sit in the back of the bus. We couldn't just get on the bus and take a seat where we do...like we do now. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And that made a difference in people growing up. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And different in the Republicans and the Democrats. So you don't know anything about this...how old are you? BW: Twenty-seven. RB: Oh, you young, boy. (laughs) And things like that that I can remember...we used to have a streetcar! Up and down Harrison Avenue. And we used to love to ride the streetcar when I was a kid. BW: How much did it cost? RB: I don't think it was more than about five cent a person, five or ten cent! We had a black movie. We used to go to the movie, and we couldn't go to none of them white movies. We only went to Virginia Theatre, which is on Hill (?) Street, it's closed down now. But I can remember, as a kid, we used to go on Saturday to the movies and most of 'em was Westerns. I loved Westerns! (laughs) I still like 'em. And it was like ten cent to go to the movie. We used to go downtown to Cress's, you remember Cress's? By...(?) And they used to sell rock candy cake and we used to take five cent and go down and get us some, what you call, scrap cookies. And you get enough cookies to last all day! And at that time, a nickel or dime was a whole lot of money to us! BW: Mmhmm. �RB: 'Cause that's what old (?) people had to give you. I mean, wasn't no bundle of money like kids get now. I don't know what an allowance was at the time. BW: Did you have any jobs, or your friends have any jobs when you were kids? RB: Um, no, I never really had a job until I got grown. But, uh, we had to go to school, bring in the coal wood...at the time we had coal stoves, all these old houses up here didn't have no furnaces in 'em. House I live in, we put a furnace in our house. It's an old house. BW: Mmhmm. RB: But it carried us all through. I had seven children, myself and my husband. And we've made it this far. BW: Mmhmm. RB: Sometimes the going got tough, but we stayed right with it. And all of my children finished high school, every one of them. That was one thing I insisted on. Going to Sunday school on Sundays and finish high school. If you didn't go, night service...there used to be something called BYP, that was for the young people. Made 'em go back in the evening, long as they went to Sunday school at nine thirty on Sunday morning. That was something I insisted on my children doing and they did it. I used to give them all by hand, and march down Salem Avenue, come straight down Salem Avenue. BW: See to it, huh? RB: See to it that they got to Sunday school and I went with 'em. Now young people say...put 'em off on somebody else. I didn't put my children off on nobody. I was their mother and I took care of them until they got big enough to take care of theirselves. And that's about all I gotta say. (laughs) I don't know whether that's any help to you or not, but that's some of the things that I went through as an adult raising my children. BW: What were some of the jobs you had when you were older? RB: Well, I didn't have...I worked in domestic work, working for white people, housekeeping. I worked in motels. I worked at several daycares as a cook for the daycares we have now? I worked up until last year in October when my legs started to fail me. And I worked...the last job I had was over here at this new daycare across the bridge...gray building? You can see it from 10th Street, I can't think of the name of it. But I worked as a foster grandparent after I got older, helping with the children, taking them to the bathroom, teaching them how to eat, how to eat proper. Yeah, things like that. It didn't pay a lot of money but gave me a lot of experience helping somebody else's child. 'Cause you'd be surprised that children now, they don't know how to sit down and eat a meal. BW: Mmhmm. �RB: These younger parents, they take their children to McDonald’s, Burger King. We never took our children to places like that. I cooked, and I fed my children, we all sit down at the table, at a certain time, and ate dinner, breakfast, and lunch. BW: Mmhmm. RB: So it's a whole lot of difference, now, and then when I was raising my children. BW: Mmhmm. RB: So... BW: What were some of your favorite recipes when you were cooking at home? RB: Oh, I'm a sweet potato casserole person. I can make sweet potato pies. I can make poundcakes. I could cook some good turkeys. We always had turkey at Thanksgiving and Christmas, we didn't have anything else, we had a turkey. And we fed nine people. We sat down at a table that was almost as big as this one! And all nine of us sit down at the same time and ate as long as my children was at home. And now at Christmastime, they all come to my house. They call my house "The Big House" and they come to my house and on Christmas morning, we have what you call a "seafood buffet". All of the children, grandchildren...I got eleven grandchildren and seven great-grandchildren and they all come to my house and we don't serve anything but seafood all day. We don't cook our turkeys for our Christmas dinner, on Christmas, we wait until after Christmas where we go to one of the children’s house and that's where we have our Christmas dinner. And everybody will bring the gifts to my house. And we'll exchange gifts, now that we got a little money now, we got more now than we had, we stopped giving individual gifts 'cause they got so high, children and grandchildren started coming, so they, all the children, myself, my husband, we pull a name. And we make our gifts a hundred dollars. If my oldest daughter got my name, she would give me a hundred, she would ask me what I want, and we put down on paper what we want. Now I'm a person, I like money, 'cause nobody can please me, I'm very hard to please (laughs) and find things for, so...when they get my name, say "Mama, what you want? Whoever got your name, what do you want?" I say, "Give me money,” because I like to buy what I like. Everybody can't please me, I'm very hard to please, so they all give me money. And we do that all, stay together all day Christmas, and we go over things that has happened in the past when the children was growing up. They tell their tall tales. (laughs) And we just have a blessed day on Christmas. That's what we do at MY house every Christmas. BW: Do you know...do you have any stories or any knowledge of what your family was like before you, like your grandparents, where they were from and however they came to Roanoke? RB: Now my mother died when I was five. I can just barely remember my mother. And my grandmother, which was her mother, I can't remember her much. And my father died at an early age, you know. I mean, back then... My aunt raised me and my brother, there's two of us and he's deceased, he's been deceased over twenty-some years. But as far as remembering them way back, we were just children, you know. �BW: Mmhmm. RB: But we had a good life. I've had a good life all my life. So I'm thankful to still be in the land of the living. BW: Mmhmm. Did you have a garden at home? RB: Oh lord, yes. (laughs) Yeah, I had a garden. I used to raise some of the biggest sweet potatoes you ever seen! Right on Salem Avenue. I just sold that lot. We lived there and the house got burnt down. We went to fix it up and at that time the city come along and tore it down. We had just had a new roof...we didn't have a lot of money, we didn't have house...fire insurance, you know, on your homes like we do now. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And they tore the house down and I still kept the property. Me and my husband, we paid the tax on up until, always paid up 'til now. And they came along and somebody wanted to buy it. And at first I didn't want to sell it 'cause it was for so many reasons, and we had kept it so long, you know. And I talked to my husband, he said, yeah, go ahead and sell it, it ain't doing us no good. We done got too old to garden now. (laughs) But I still got, in my front yard the prettiest tomato plants you ever seen tomatoes, we still raise tomatoes. I used to have a nice garden there on Salem Avenue. BW: Did you have any chickens? RB: No, I never had chickens! BW: No? RB: No I never lived, like, in the country, you couldn't...'round here you couldn't have no chickens! Somehow or 'nother. There's a man way up on Salem Avenue where they built, where they built the BMW dealer now. He had a chicken farm, he used to have chickens. Okay, Mr. Williams was his name, I think it was. But that's been a many year ago, honey. (laughs) BW: Were there a lot of stores in the neighborhood that you'd go to to buy things that you needed? RB: No, there wasn't anything but grocery stores. Kroger's used to be up here, Mick-or-Mack was out on 13th Street Southwest, and now they got Laundromats out there, they got two or three stores out there. But I can't afford to go to those stores 'cause they too high. I have to go to Walmart, Kroger's...we only get a pension a month, me and my husband. And we have to live on that. Lights, water, gas, telephone bill, insurance, medicine. And you have to economize. You have to go where, I go where the sales are. If there's a sale, you'll see me. (laughs) Find me, okay? (laughs) BW: Mmhmm. RB: But it's been good. BW: Was the Kroger pretty small that was in your neighborhood? �RB: Yeah, it was sort of small, but they had most everything you wanted. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And they got a Thriftway out on Patterson Avenue, still got that. That's still out there, I shop out there sometimes. Wh-BW: Wha-- Oh I'm sorry, go ahead. RB: They got these, whatcha call these people, umm, I can't call their names, but they foreign people, they got a lot of stores around. BW: Oh okay. RB: And there are two right here. Right on 13th Street and Patterson. They're foreigners and they come in and open up anyplace that they can get. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And they make a living. Because a lot of people don't have cars to go to Kroger, some of them. Walmart, Walmart is a good ways from here. BW: Mmhmm. What did a lot of people do for jobs back then, in the neighborhood? RB: Well, now my husband was lucky to have a good job, he worked for Norfolk and Southern, and he worked there for forty-seven years. And he made a decent living, you know what I mean, I mean a good salary. And that's what took care of his seven children, me and him. But now a lot of people didn't have good jobs, the silk mill used to be a good place for black people to work at. I never had nobody work at the silk mill but I knew about it. And that was in Vinton. And my brother-in-law worked at GE. He's the one they took to the hospital this morning. His sugar went low. And that's where he retired. And my husband retired from Norfolk and Southern. And the pension that I get comes from when he worked, because I never worked, I stayed at home and took care of my children until they got old enough to, one look after the other, you know. Back then, people didn't work that had children. You had to stay at home and take care of your children. BW: Mmhmm. RB: I never had real good jobs, you know what I mean? BW: Right. RB: But I did what I could to help after my children began to go to college. BW: Mmhmm. What did your husband do at the railroad? What was his job? RB: He sorted mail, loaded mail from the...like another train come through, put it on another car. I can remember one time my husband worked at night and they had a dead body on the train. And they �unloaded him (?) out to put it on another train that came through, and they left the dead body out on the train platform. And the train had to come back and get the body. And we laugh about that thing there sometimes. (laughs) I mean, the man was late going to his own funeral. (laughs) But that's one of the things that had happened when he worked at it, he worked there for forty-seven years. BW: Wow. RB: And he retired from Norfolk, it was Norfolk and Southern...now N and W, that's Norfolk and Southern. BW: Right, right. RB: Mmhmm. I get them mixed up 'cause it's been so long, you know? BW: Yeah, it changes. RB: And uh, things change. BW: What do you miss most about the neighborhood, the way things used to be? RB: Well, we didn't have a lot of crime like we do now. We have young folks, that sells pot...I don't know about pot 'cause I never even seen it! When I was young, we didn't have no money to buy no pot. You lucky to get five cents for soda pop! (laughs) Crack and all that kind of stuff that the young people go through now. BW: Mmhmm. RB: And I miss a lot of the older people. And when my children was growing up, if an elderly person saw my child out doing something, they had our permission to correct them. You go out here now and try to correct somebody's child, you might have to fight. That's the way things get...different and things have changed. Older people would come and tell me, "I saw your child doing something," I said, "Well, you got my permission to whip 'em if they need it." You don't whip somebody's child now. Even if...the law run our children! They got to the place the mothers and fathers that you can't whip your child...that was one of the worst things that the law could ever have done. I spanked my children, every one of them. They did wrong, didn't do what I tell them to do, they got it. And it made good human beings out of them. None of mine ever been in jail for robbing, stealing, nothing like that, ‘cause I didn't put up with that kind of stuff. But now, kids do...kids are raising their mothers, that's just the way things are. And that's not only in the black section, that's in the white sections too. BW: Mmhmm. Does Roanoke still seem kind of segregated to you now, even though it's not officially that way? RB: In a way it is, but not like it used to be. We can feel free to go where we want to go, we used to couldn't go to Hotel Roanoke, or Patrick Henry Hotel, or none of those places like that. We wasn't allowed in them. Black people, now. So that has changed, because now we go where we want to go. People might not want us there but we go. (laughs) As long as you paying, they let you in, you know? �BW: Right. RB: So, uh, that's all I got to say, I'm getting out of here. (laughs) BW: Okay, okay. (laughs) Well, thank you. 27:34.7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ruth Bennett Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ruth Bennett Interviewer: Brent Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 27:35 Transcription prepared by: Chelsea Seddon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ruth E. Bennett; Brent Weigel, Chelsea Seddon Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BennettRuth https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2729/PrestonDanielleMarcus_[compressed].mp3 d90c571e183742925075bbdac8c1aca9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2729/PrestonMarcus.jpg e2070fb34ad039d3c9acc2731c528280 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2729/PrestonDanielle.jpg 9c9e7f2117dfbffc8a8a53d0e53f594f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Marcus and Danielle Preston Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Marcus and Danielle Preston Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 23 October 2007 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 37:31 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 October 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marcus Preston; Danielle Preston; Kellie Thomas Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PrestonMarcusDanielle https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2728/GarlandRay_[compressed].mp3 6f0f33dc521e2eeca0b599c606ba7d31 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ray L. Garland Subject The topic of the resource Southwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ray L. Garland Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 4 October 2007 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 47:27 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4 October 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ray Lucian Garland; Alicia Sell Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GarlandRay Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2727/ShawMalcolm_[compressed].mp3 ad40d6f4a7b56331aa9e296a179a1c2e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Malcolm Shaw Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Malcolm Shaw Interviewer: Michaele J. Johnson Date: 12 April 2010 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 42:57 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roaonoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12 April 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Malcolm A. Shaw; Micheale J. Moore Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShawMalcolm https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2726/JohnsonJohn_[compressed].mp3 0cff0ef8f1d1f21a3e81aae60455ad8e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with John and Mattie Johnson Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with John and Mattie Johnson Interviewer: Nathan Abernethy Date: 18 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 1:05:49 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource John H. Johnson, Mattie Johnson; Nathan Abernethy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JohnsonJohn https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2725/DoweGloria_[compressed].mp3 a9a9b3ad631569bf7998149aeb2fe1f8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2725/Dowe_Gloria.pdf dcc5fe2cc863d682cee1f6bda733a432 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Gloria Dowe Interviewer: Chris Fetterman Transcribers: Zach Hildreth and Chelsea Seddon Today is March 17, 2010. We are located in Lucy Addison Middle School. CF: My name is Chris Fetterman, I’ll be doing the interview. GD: OK. CF: Would you like to state your name, please? GD: My name is Gloria Dowe. CF: Thank you. All right, you were born in Roanoke, correct? GD: I was, yes. CF: Did you live here your entire life? GD: My entire life, yes. CF: So anything interesting happened while you lived here, that you want to think of? GD: In Roanoke? CF: I mean, any special people come by or famous people or anything like that? GD: Any people-you know what, I guess quite a lot happened, after all it was, it was a long time. And it’s been interesting to see the changes that have transpired in that time; I have met, done a lot of interesting things and I met a lot of interesting people. I don’t know who stands out as the most important person that I met but... Oh, I do know too, I did meet at one time Julie Nixon Eisenhower, who was...at that time was, President Nixon was still in office. So... CF: You said you met her: did you actually talk to her or did you just see her? GD: I beg your pardon? CF: When you said you met this person, did you actually meet them and talk to them or did they just come into town? GD: Actually, it was...they came to visit the Head Start program I was working at at the time and it was interesting because there were TV cameras and there were lots of people from NBC, I believe it was at �the time, and the types of clearances that you had to get to even speak to this person...so that was really interesting. CF: That's very interesting. Kind of backtracking a little bit: did you have any brothers or sisters? GD: I have, ooh, I have quite a large family. There are eleven of us and I’m the oldest. CF: You’re the oldest? GD: Yes. CF: That must have been interesting. GD: Yeah, well, even I’ve always said that my mom had three sets of children and there were the first four of us that were first oldest four, then there was a middle set, and then there was a latter set; and the latter set are the same age as my children, so, yeah. CF: That’s, that’s quite a big difference. GD: Yeah, a very big difference, yeah. CF: So you said you were the oldest, so did that mean you had lots of responsibilities, did you take care of your siblings? GD: I did care of my siblings…I got up for them and fed them, I also washed and ironed their clothing, and things like that, so, yeah. We walked everywhere we went at...back in that time so we had grocery responsibilities that we walked to the grocery store and did that, yeah. CF: Since you had a big family, I’m assuming your house, was it relatively large or was it a lot of people and small? GD: We started, actually we started out here with the four of us... I was born in Northeast on Gilman. CF: Ok. GD: I lived on Gilman Avenue when I was born and then we moved with my grandmother up here on Staunton. They...we had four children, there were four of us, four siblings when we moved out here on Hanover, which is from 715 Hanover, which is right down the street from this school, and it was a GI house at the time. It was probably one of the houses that they had built, like they use stimulus money now to do, and that type of thing, yeah. CF: You said that aside from taking care of your brothers and sisters and doing groceries or anything, what would you do in your free time...go outside to play? GD: We did, we spent a lot of time outdoors, as a matter of fact...I marveled at the fact that we did spend a lot of time outdoors and that the children nowadays don’t spend as much time out as we did outdoors. We sometimes...one of the things we used to do was, when it was almost time to go to bed, a �group of us would stand up under a telegram pole and just talk and... My cousin lived next door to me so I spent time walking back and forth, I’d walk her home and then she’d walk me back home and I walk her home, and we did that all night, so we did stuff like that. We played a lot of outdoor games; I am a game person even now. I love games. We played things like "No Bears Out Tonight" and that type of thing. We made mud pies...that's just the type of stuff we did. We were able to mingle in the neighborhood. My mom did not want me to learn how to ride a bike, so I went up on Staunton Avenue and I found somebody who taught me how to ride a bike. CF: Why didn’t she want you to ride a bike? Was she afraid you’d hurt yourself? GD: I think it was a safety thing, because there are lots of things I would have done and accomplished during that time. I’ve always wanted to swim and I’ve always wanted to skate. I don’t skate, but I did learn how to ride a bike and I tried to learn how to swim twice. CF: No such luck? GD: I can float. CF: That’s good. You also said your cousin lived near you guys? Did any other family members, extended family live close to you? GD: My grandmother lived on Staunton. Let me see...and my cousin lived next door so we had an extended family in pretty close proximity, and that time there was no safety issues as far as getting away from your neighborhood at that time, you could walk everywhere you went and there were not... As I got to be a young adult, I noticed that the safety issues were more problematic at that time, but when I was coming up it was not a problem. As a matter of fact, the most interesting thing that... when we lived on Hanover, we actually used to see gypsy caravans going down Orange Avenue, down 460 and I said...and at that time they would talk about gypsies taking away your children. So that was something that was really, really cool. CF: That sounds cool. You said that there was...as you got older there was more danger or security things...what kind? Violence? GD: No, not really violence...people were in cars and I remember walking from...at this time I was married, and my husband’s aunt lived over here on Hanover, ten hundred block, and I would walk her to her house any time. But one night, it had gotten dusk and I went down and there was some guy and he was sort of around and there was a big stone house on the corner and there were trees around the house, and I knew that he was trying to pick, or snatch me, or whatever; but I hid behind that tree. I noticed that he came by back, and that there were several trees...anyway, when he turned the corner, I flew home. You just notice those things as they became more and more prevalent as time goes on. CF: Did it get better later on or did it just stay, it never got back to...? �GD: It was pretty much steady, there were not a lot of safety issues when I was growing up, at least not, I guess my parents were probably more fearful of us getting injured because we would fall or something than from somebody else hurting us. CF: How about school, you went here? GD: I went here. CF: Back when it was a high school? GD: I went here at the high school, went to Booker T. Washington, and I went to all the elementary schools in Roanoke except Gregory and the one on Gainsboro, I can’t think of the name of it. But anyway, I went to Harrison and Gilmer, and, actually, when I went to Gilmer, I rode a bus down to Gilmer. I rode a city bus down to Gilmer. And I went to Harrison and I went to Loudon School, those were all of them. CF: Did you go to school after high school or did you just go to high school? GD: I’ve been studying all my life. CF: That’s good. GD: I went to Virginia Western and when I transferred to Radford, I transferred 198 hours to Radford. So because I didn't...I don’t think I really knew what I wanted to do or who I wanted to be at that time, I really probably still don’t know, but that’s ok. I’m still a product in becoming. And I graduated with a BSW from Radford University. CF: In what major…what field? GD: In social work. CF: In social work? GD: A bachelors in social work, yeah. CF: So then, I’m guessing you went into a career in social working? GD: I worked at a community hospital as a social worker and I have also worked in long term care as a social worker. I’ve done various and many sundry things. I directed day care centers, I have been a parent involvement coordinator, I’ve been a social services coordinator. I worked on teams with people in Region Three, to peer review programs. I’ve worked….I’ve also been a task expert, where you go into programs that are faltering and you help them, and my specialty was parent involvement and social services. CF: I’m assuming that since you wanted to do social work or got a degree in social work you actually wanted to help out other people? �GD: Absolutely, absolutely, you know, I think the more we can be connected with people, the more we can offer. It could be time, it could be money, it can be services, and that’s what we’re called up to be as christian people, even in this age. CF: I’m assuming that came from your parents, they were very helpful as well? GD: They were, my parents were…both my parents finished high school. They…I wouldn’t say they were upwardly mobile. My aunts and uncles were probably more in that frame than my parents were, so my aunts and my uncles would probably push us more than my parents did. CF: Did any of your brothers and sisters go to college as well? GD: I don’t think so….I don’t think so, we've all had careers. One of my sisters has been a truck driver, she’s a bus driver now. One of my sisters worked at the Pentagon and she did those types of things. I have a brother that’s a bus driver, I have two brothers, as a matter of fact, that are bus drivers. Trying to think. One of my brothers works at sheet metal; my sister works at a bank. I have one brother that’s autistic and one brother that had a disability and they were...one is at Lynchburg training and then one is in a home for boys. CF: Was that difficult on your family having brothers that were autistic and had disabilities? GD: Hmm? CF: Was that hard for your family because they were autistic? GD: You know, at the time we were not as advanced in medicine and everything as we are now, so, I guess my parents did not really know what was going on. The other thing was my dad worked on the railroad so he was gone quite a bit. So, when my brothers were diagnosed, we did not know what was going on and I was quite young at the time. Just know that it was difficult in that they had needs that, at the time, we weren't sure how to fill. CF: Was the medical people around here, were they helpful with that? GD: You know, I think there were lots of limitations then, I think there were lots of limitations as far as who to go to, what questions to ask and who would know the answers, as far as that respect. I think the area of autism is still one that’s not quite well-defined today and that people are still not getting the help they need. CF: I…I agree with that. You said your dad worked on railroads. Did he build them or did he work on trains? GD: Actually my dad was a cook on the railroads so he worked dining car for a long time and then he moved to the administrative office, and he cooked for the president of the railroad. CF: Which railroad company? GD: Norfolk and Western at the time. �CF: Did you have any other members of your family that were in the military, or anything like that, ‘cause you said you had a brother who worked at the Pentagon? GD: No, my sister. CF: Oh, your sister, sorry. GD: My sister, no, but I have a brother that’s in the service right now, and he’s in the Army. None of my other siblings were in…No, no I need to take that back because I have sister that was in the Air Force. CF: Is your brother an officer or is he enlisted, do you know? GD: I don’t know what his rank is, he was in reserves and he was a trainer in the reserves. I’m pretty sure he had some kind of office. He’s a bus driver with a couple of million miles types of things going on too, so yeah. CF: Kind of going back to regular family life stuff, in Roanoke, was there any specific stores or businesses your family went to a lot, like a family grocery store or a neighborhood grocery store? GD: There were, we used to shop at Johnson’s grocery store, there were Kroger stores here then too. We were able, my Dad was able to go and buy the groceries and charge them, and pay for them over time, that type of thing. There was no...hardly any interest or anything like that, you would just pay for the groceries. It was Johnson’s store and it was on Eleventh Street, if I recall, yeah. CF: Again, you mentioned earlier that when you were younger, it was a very, open community, you would go out and play with the kids all the time, so was the community… was that always like that or like you said...there were more things that were kind of bad, did people become less social? GD: You know what, people were very social, I thought. Everybody knew everybody else in the community. If one of your children did something here and this neighbor saw it, your parents knew it before you got home. CF: Yes Ma’am. GD: We had picnics and parties, we would have church activities. I remember the Catholic priest in our neighborhood, I’m not Catholic, I’m Baptist, but the Catholic priest, Father McDonald. He was community-oriented; I remember him or the church buying me a white dress for something that I needed. Now I don’t remember what it was but I do remember him coming across with this white dress. So yeah…. CF: Some people were helpful. GD: Very helpful, very helpful. CF: You said for special events and stuff or there were community events...were there any things like baseball games or concerts that happened that you remember? �GD: Not a whole lot of that, maybe later on like in high school, that type of thing in high school, mostly in high school...sock hops, basketball, football were big. CF: Isn’t, wasn’t there a local team, like a Triple A team for baseball here? GD: There was a, I think it was a Negro league here and I think that’s what it was called. CF: Did your families ever go to those games or...? GD: Yes we did...in later years...I know some of the people who played on that team so, a lot of them are dead now, but yeah I did know some of them. CF: Did you actually follow baseball, or not really? GD: Did I actually? CF: Like did you actually pay attention to it a lot, or no? Was it just something you kind of...? GD: I know what’s going on, I knew what was going on yeah, yes, I would cheer for whom I thought was, you know I was cheering for, yeah, yeah, I would do that. CF: ‘Cause I was going to ask, if since you mentioned the Negro leagues, how did your family or your community feel when the color barrier was broken in professional baseball? If you remember that. GD: I, I think there, I think there were a lot of...from one of the guys that I that I had...knew and talked to, I think there were a lots of regrets that they were not able to go advance further than they were, but they were very proud of what they had done. CF: That’s good. You mentioned people like the Catholic priest? GD: Uh huh. CF: Were there any other strong figures in your community? GD: The church was, was the place in the community that set the moral standards, that set the values and most...a lot of the activities surrounded the church...the Catholic church used to have bazaars...I actually was a girl scout at St. Andrews Catholic church. My church was First Baptist Church in Northeast and I remember the leadership of the older women just having a huge impact on who we were as Christians, that type of thing. CF: And you said you were a girl scout, did you stay with them for a long time, or just for a few years? GD: For a few years yes. Yes, Missus, missus Ina Shaw was our troop leader at the time, yes. CF: Was that very... did that have a good impact on your life? �GD: It did. You know what scouting...if you get into scouting and stay into scouting, if would have a huge impact on anybody’s life, because it it builds industry, it builds morals it in, like you learn how to work together as a group, it has, it can have an huge impact. CF: That’s how I felt when I was in the boy scouts. I just, I never really asked anybody if the girl scouts were like that. GD: Oh yeah, absolutely. CF: You mentioned the older women in your church were, I assume, role models, was there anybody else in your life that were role models? GD: My aunts, my uncles, my teachers. Even today when I see one of my teachers, especially the ones that I was really, really close to...and see the other thing is that we...our teachers lived among us. We knew them like Mrs. Wilfor—Anderson lived right next door to us, Coach Charles Price lived next door to us on the other part of Hanover so we had our neighbors...I had one particular neighbor who used to go to the Goodwill store every Wednesday and, at that time, we girls still wore petticoats and under slips and we would starch them up.... But anyway, she would go and she would she would find something that she would felt like we could use and she would bring them over in a little brown bag and say “Hey come over here and get this,” and you know that type of thing. CF: That’s that seems very nice. I know you, I’ve asked you...you’ve mentioned a couple of times how Roanoke has changed, and I figure since you’ve lived here your entire life, is there anything that you think has really changed since you...? GD: I...I do, and I don’t know where...our sense of history is not here. Instead of us preserving history in Roanoke, I really don’t think that we do a good job of it here. We'd rather tear it down than build it up, or...or make it what it needs to be, and I think that’s...that’s a detriment to this community. It’s hard for young people not to have a standard to, or a foundation to to look at. We’ve... we’ve destroyed more than we...and some of the things that we build...well you know that’s just my opinion. CF: Yeah I can, I can understand that. For when you grew up, how was the job, availability of jobs...was there like certain jobs that you couldn’t have as a woman, or anything like that? GD: Very true, very true. I guess we, I managed somehow, you know? But also when I started in the job market it was during the Lyndon Johnson’s great society. So I was able to get a job, even though it was a low, low paying job and I was able to work my way up through the ranks. But, but jobs like the telephone company at the rail road, GE, or any of those jobs they were not easy to come by. CF: I’m not trying to offend, if I do, I’m sorry when you say they were lower paying, was it because you were a woman or was it also because you’re black? GD: Well... CF: Or was there a lot or not as much racial issues in Roanoke as other places? �GD: Of course it was, of course it was. I’m pretty sure I’m a ligh-skinned black women, and I’m pretty sure that I could’ve walked and gone anywhere in the United States, took off my black face and did pretty well. So those opportunities were, were not here for black people. As a matter of fact, somebody was just telling me just the other day and I went to this gentleman’s funeral and I...I didn’t know he was a social worker. And for years and years and years he worked as an orderly, at, at one of the institutions here and they found out he had a four year degree. They didn’t want to do that, they just didn’t want to do that. I feel that when, when you...people have to want to see a change, people have to want to make, make a, make a difference. And if...and there are a lot more hard-hearted people in the world now then it was when I was coming up, even though there were those barriers. Our young people coming along now don’t know what they will have to face. CF: Going back to racial issues, were there any places in town that were more white-oriented, towards black-oriented or anything, any events like rallies that happened during your time here? GD: There were some that, not necessarily that I witnessed, you know but that I certainly heard about. When I was coming up we were able to...I remember when like the movie theatre was and everything was integrated and I remember having to go,going to the Roanoke theatre before that and have to go in the back door, up the steps and look at the picture, so I do remember those things. I don’t think Roanoke was necessarily...there were people who will say that, and there were people working in, in those types of areas. I remember Doctor Wilkinson was one of the people, and I think Doctor Harry Pin was in there and...but I , I don’t think that...I don’t know how I want to say that, you know we could sa— you know there, there were lots of things that were going on. They didn’t always come out, yeah, maybe that’s the best way to say that. There were lots of things that were going on...even when... I, I’ve read about them later. But it didn’t make me, didn’t know it was going on at the time. CF: Do you think because Roanoke was a more, a larger and more modern compared to the citi—the cities and towns around here that it wasn’t as bad? Or like say as in Bedford county, or other places? GD: I don’t know... Roanoke is so—sort of clannish, and I think they, Roanoke has a tendency to hide stuff under the bushel, so to speak, or sweep it up under the rug. Um I, it wasn’t like Prince Edward county, who closed their schools. I think there was some people who probably made a difference in the way our schools were, were integrated rather than...so it didn’t come into a full-blown war, that type of thing. But I’m pretty sure the feelings were still up under. CF: This is also kind of going back some...you mentioned earlier that you used to have to ride the public bus to school? GD: I did. CF: Was that also segregated when you went to school? GD: Hum? CF: Was the bus also segregated? Or could you just...or not? �GD: You know what? I, I didn’t even pay any attention to that because I was six seven years old when I was riding the bus... CF: Oh. GD: ...to school, so I’d put my whatever in, my token, I think we were using at the time, and I’d go to get to school. And sometimes I would, sometimes when I didn’t ride the bus, I would ride with Doctor E.D. Downing's wife, who was the principal at the school at that time. CF: All right, I really don’t have any more questions, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would like to talk about? GD: Anybody else have any questions? I don’t got, I don’t think I do. I really think that we’ve covered a lot of territory. CF: That’s fine it’s, it’s mainly whatever you felt like talking about so if— GD: Right, right, well basically I have, I had three children, and all of them are employed well and I’m...they're lucky. They did not go to school, they did not have a wish to go to school, obviously. But they’ve gotten in trades...they're mechanics, or my son, er, daughter works for an insurance company. So, so yeah. CF: Do you think it was better raising a family now or do you think it was—it would have been better to raise a family when, back when you were...the times when you were younger? GD: In some areas it’s better to raise a family now but in some other areas it was better to raise a family then. And I’m gonna tell you why because...we were...I feel like our, our people had a stronger moral base. And our moral base is eroding so very fast, that I don’t know in that regard. The other thing is that we could make it off of, we learned how to make it off of a little bit, and you don’t have to have a lot to, to, to make it, but you have to have commitment. And that, that has to be the connection...we had connections with our neighbors. We had connections with, with, with the people, with the teachers and... in that, in that respect it, that was a good thing. CF: Do you think people nowadays have less commitment to do things? GD: I do, I do. I definitely do. Like going...when you see somebody going through something, going through means being there. And that, that doesn’t mean that you got to talk about, it that means that you got to do something. And it...and being, you just don’t have that kind of commitment, we don’t have that kind of commitment in the churches, we don’t have that kind of commitment in the schools, you can see, look at all the cuts. And, and the schools is...I mean that’s the foundation. We don’t have, we don’t have the parent involvement that we need to bring this together. When I worked with parents, we talked about the real world and, and how to maybe make a change in that and that’s, that’s eroding. CF: Do you think that people are more interested in themselves now than helping other people? �GD: I, I think people are very selfish. I think our government has become so focused on... it’s so big that it's lost its focus. I don’t think, I don’t think that we have it together, because this country has a lot of problems. A lot of problems, and it's eroded over time because if you, if you’ve ever gone on a tour up like in New York, for instance, you hear about Henry Hudson and his age when he did all the things that he did...that’s our foundation, that was it, you know? You could build on that, you can—what we got is crumbling, and it's crumbling from the bottom up and from the top down, so yeah. CF: Do you think there's still people that are trying to fix it, though? GD: I think people are still trying to fix it. But we’ve fallen so far morally, that the decay is not going to, I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon. CF: Probably not but at least I think that some people are...people trying to do the right thing will eventually get what they want. GD: Right, but you have to get together in order to do that. We could hear you but you don’t get anything accomplished. You just...you're spinning your wheels...that’s the way I feel about it. CF: All right. Is there anything else— GD: Nope, nope, nope. I think that’s, this could be very, very deep. CF: All right. Thank you very much...I guess that’s it unless you have anything else to say. GD: No, no I’m fine, I’m fine. Okay...have I answered all of your questions though? CF: I think so. GD: Okay. Good, good. CF: Is there anything else we need to fill out? 35:52 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gloria A. Dowe Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gloria A. Dowe Interviewer: Chris Fetterman Date: 17 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 35:52 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gloria A. Dowe; Chris Fetterman Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoweGloria https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2724/Chubb-HaleVirginia_[compressed].mp3 ff6424d230f06e95d3366d0cb4cb71b1 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2724/VC_10_Outstanding_Blacks_.PDF 4dc34041fb15fc7a40ff18ec71d8d0e6 PDF Text Text Ttnnrswdi srbt ryBt Iw T>oopo|l owlpr{rlvtt Fan AA ynF. Tlolc ond snu Ol �utFtoylfuTlsckr Ir,;''&osy,ol+a ?ort'-pdfvls{wt' 'l.O o E cE .E.EcE:Q :Q . 9.1 AA W.floi{nsweObnF resfTrqsA a &osnok€rryt&o Fshoolr Q'E E-E f';oqnfr,{,Vrgtgtt �CONIENTS . t Pfeface . ' ' ' ' | ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' . ' ' ' ' ' ' . . . . r . ' 1 ' ' ' 2 ' " 3 . . L . ' ' ' ' . . . . . ' T h e A u th o r. tbout ' ' t . . ' . ' ' . . . . . . | tssacDavidBuffgll . . . . . lndfgWJaCkSOnOliVef r. . . Ll lucy Add'ison. . . . . . ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' t ' | ' ' ' ' 5 Dr. lylburn C. Downi:tg. . . . ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' | ' '. ' ' 7 I | | . C h r i s t o p h eC . W . i l l i a r n s . r . . . o .' fraWSOn. . Sadie E. tleming . . I T. Pgnn . . |''''''''11 ' | ' ' ' ' I t ' | ' ' ' ' ' 'Lz | t ' . . ' ' ' ' ' t ' t t ' ' ' ' ' '14 . . ' t ' ' ' ' ' I ' t ' ' ' ' ' 'L5 r ' . . . . . . r . . l l g X a n d eAx f "t h u r[ g I . f e I. I. . . lefry 9 ' ' Algxand'gr. Y. T,gg ' Vtrginia . t t ' ' ' t ' ' ' t ' ' ' ' t . l f g d f r a W S . O |n . , . L 6 t ludreylrongWhitloek. .. . . | ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' t ' ' 't7 . . . . . . . . ' . ' t ' ' ' ' ' ' '18 . r . . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . , ,t9 . . . . . . . ' ' ' | ' ' ' ' ' ' ' | '20 lll1ian B. RObgftSOn. | . r . r'. | . . . . . r . . . . ,2L Bichard Tr. Chubb. . . . . . . . . ' o ' ' t ' ' ' t ' ' '22 . . . . . . ' ' ' t ' ' t ' ' o | ' ' '21+ IendgllH. lOgl llfred BUtlef C. taylor' Hollandt . t �PREFACE this booklet has been written that Ie contributi-ons rlro lived and are living to relate some of the have been made by black in Roanoke, virginia. peo- How- due to , E Omea cco mp l i sh e d people wer e not mentioned i.nformation. of available In addition to recording some of the accomplishments in Roanoke, this booklet provi-des biographical of black men and women who proved that suceess regult from personal drive and honest efforts. are to give a factual aecount of the the intentions of these seventeen Black Americass, showing that in have been e the achievenents of these individuals ed. lhrough acti,ons these men and women ald have been honored by the com- their ear:red. the respect 3t. of the lhe author is grateful to the librarians o Braneh of lhe Roanoke c ity Public l,ibrary and for their help in gathering of the Downtown library fhe author also lnformation used, in this booklet. iates the serviees rendered by the staff of the d,epartment of the Roanoke Tirnes & world News. Mf . Ferguson deserves thasks for his advice and encourt as this booklet d'eveloPed'. Bspecial thasks and appreciation are offered to Scott in , who was in the author's cLass of wasena school page done title Lg?g-tg8,o term, for the beautifully cover of this booklet. -1- �ABOUT THE AUTHOR V. liiignon Chubb-Hal-e is a sixth grade teacher at She rerasena flementary School in Roanoke, Virgi-nia. ceived her Bachelor of Science Degree from Bluefield State College in t956. She recej.ved the degree of in Iaster of Education from the UniversS,ty of Virginia edueational, and t9?2. Well lcrown for her religious, black to serve on the civic work, she was the first Roanoke Catholic Schoo1 Board, and is president of thg She taught State College Alunnni Association. lluefiel{ gifted program, and holds membership tn the cityts first ln a number of state and national civic, educationaL, organizations. end religious Ms. Chubb-Hale has had an arti-cle pubt5.shed in the Ylreinia Education Association Jourrral, April L9?7. Forral recognit5.on includes "Top Teacher" by Senior Weeklv lrard, 0ctober 31, 1980. this award was presented by the Executive Board of the Virginia Colmci.l for the Social Studies. She was featured in an ed,ucational- artiand motivation i.n the Roano3e gimes cle on discipline end World News on October 3, 1980 which was picked up by fP and appeared in numerous newspapers across the counEJr. 0n several occasi.ons, the Roanoke Times and World fras featured her two arrnual school projeets ,'The !g Iorld|s Fair" and the Black History Progran. Gail Lambert Parent ''dasenaElementary School -2- �ISSAC DAVID BURRET,I PIfYSICIAN of Roanoke, was one t h e mo st a cco mp l i sh e d and successful physiciar ts in T h e l a te Issa c D a vi d Bur r ell, Dr. Burrell was a nati-ve of Chu1a, i.n Anelia Coun, rhere he was borrr just a few days before the close the Civil War. His father, Robert Burye11, was a grew up in Aroelia Cowrty and attendYorrng Brmell the loea1 public schools after the war. He was an uun3lous.youth and was the nost suceessful nember of his a where he went to Lincoln University, Issac Burell eondied his way through college because of flnaneial at home. He completed hi,s work at I'incoln in 1888, which he matri.culated at Leonard Medical College, He recej.ved his M.D. deShaw Uni.versity in Ralaigh. in t893 and the sane year lofton that institution in Roanoke, where he soon built up a large general tice which eontinued to grow to the day of his established in the practice death. of he was well found,ed. and cond.ucted the Burrell ine, Dr. BumeII black owned dnrg store in S.tore which was the first After t Virgin5-a. lhi,s important busj.ness was eonductfor several years after his death by Mrs. Burrell. lhe Brrrrell Menorial Hospital of Roanoke has been j.n honor of Dr. Burrell, whose life and work was a sing to people of Roanoke. Dr. Burrell' was an active member of the Presbyterian ch, of which he was an elder. Amongthe secret orders ras identified with ours, and, in addition al a sso e i a ti o n s, ea1 Society. the Masons , Pythians and Odd to his membershlp in the Virginia were, h e was Pr esident -3- of the M agic City �ANDREIil JACKSON OTIVER IAWYER Andrew Jackson Oliver was the first black to practiee Lar in West Virginia and Yirginia. He was born September !, L862, in Blacksbur€, Virginia. f,ls parents were Mr. and.Mrs. Andy Oli.ver. Andrew 0liver started his edueation at the Schafer InVi.rginia. Later he moved to in Christiansburg, rtitute Ohio, where he pursued his studj-es at lronton City High School, a3d from there attended the People's University Co10hio. He reeeived his degree in lege of f,aw in Cineinnati' 1885. In 1889, Mr. 0liver moved to Roanoke. He was adnitted to the Virginia Bar in 1890, and beeane one of the most successf,ul lawyers of his race in the south. Mr. Jackson was frequently associated with the leading He repreleryers i,n Roanoke and had nany white clients. rerrted. eapital cases but never lost a elient by execution. Andrew Jackson belonged to numerous civi-c organS.zations, atrrdwas a preacher at St. Paul Methodist Church in He was also a lay delegate to the General Conferloanoke, Gce of the Methodist EpiscopaL Church in t9t2. " Andrew Oli.ver possessed. a splended library ' the contents of which he mastered, in a large degree artd was welL lnformea on many subjects. larvyer 0liver was a leader in the Roanoke conmunity and had one child,. res married The Honorable A.J. Oliver died in L947, -4- �IUCY ADDISON mucAl0R Miss Addison earrred the d.istinction of being called 'd.lmarnic and a natural leader" by the members of the of Roanoke cornmr.nity. She exhibited the characteristics e, beloved., devoted, and dedicated. teacher to the black boys and girls in the City. Miss Add.ison was born i-n Fauquier County during the Civil War on'Deeember 8, 1851. Her parents were Charles and Elizabeth Addison. Her ed,ucation began in the loca1 rur.al schools of her nati.ve county and. was supplemented. Poor health and lack by study und.er private teachers. of fi.mds did not d.eter her desire for a higher ed.ucation. for black youth in After graduating fron the Institute PennEylvania, in t778, she attended Virginia Philadelphia, Book County Normal Normal School in Petersburg, Virginia, ' ln Chie&go, Illinois ' and, Howard.Univers5.ty. Miss Addisonrs teaching career began in the City of Roanoke at Gai.nsboro Elenentary School, where she taught years. In Lgt?, Miss Addison was na.med for thirty-one of the new Harrison School which offered one lnineipal year of high school. In L92l+, the high school was aceredof being the ited by the state and enjoyed. the distj:rction largest black school in the state with a female pr5.neipaI. of having taught in the Xi.ss Addison has the distinction Roanoke School Systen longer than any other teacher I €uldI as prS.ncipal of Ha:rison, organized, and developed the high school. was also called a "social worker" beeause Miss Ad.d.i-son of her concerrr and, efforts to help the needy. She organized citizens to provide food and clothj,ng for the poor. She taught night school and held the position of superi.ntendent of the Fifth Avenue Presbyteri-an Sund,aySehool. She was Vice President of the Bumell Memorial Hospital Assoc'i,ation and a member of the Board of Tnrstees. -5- �Because of her achi-evements in edueation areas, the ne';i high school, i n h o no r o f l {i ss A d d i son. completed Mi ss A d d i so n i n fl u enced the lives manner duri-ng her lif etime. favorable 1r'gton, D .C . , on November t3, L937 , -5- in and other t928 ' was named of m ost people in She died in Wash- �DR. IYABURNC, DOWNING P}IYSICIAN Dr. Downing was a leader of the medical community, one of the founders of Burrell Memorial Hospital, and its f irst super!-ntendent from L7L5-L94?. Dr. Dov,'rringr4 na.tive of Danvi11e, was born in Mareh' 1889. He was the son of Dr. I,il Downing, a mini-ster who founded the Fifth Avenue presbyterian church in Roanoke and served it for l|2 years. Dr. Downing moved to Roanoke when he was a youth and attended Roanoke Public Schools (Gainsboro School). He attended the Johnson c. Snith universj-ty and received his nedical d.egree from Howard unlversity. He did postgraduate study at Harvard University, Marquette University and numerous other uni.versities. Dr. Downing was one of five bLack d,octors who organi.zed Burrell Hospital because they could not treat their patients at other Roanoke hospitals. rhe institution opened its doors for the first tfune March 18, tgt5r orl First Street, N.W. Having no access to white hospitals, Dr. Downing and two other physici-ans performed their first operation j.:r a private home. He was a memberof the city school Board from Lg54 to L96L, a period when the school went through the diffieulties of racial segregation and a nuLti-niIlion dollar expansion. rn nid-L958, he was named to the seven-member vi-rginia Advisory connittee of the presi.dent's ci.vi1 Rights Commission, the only black named. Dr. Downing received nany honors in the nedical fie1d. He was a former president of both the Magic city and o1d Doninion Medical Societies and of the Association of ForBer rnterns and Residents at Freedma.n'sHospital in wash_ ington. He had served his internship there and in LgSz �received i ts Wa rfi e l d Awar d. to be named Dr. Downing was the f:.'st black physicias a m e m b e r o f th e A me r'i ca3 College of Hospital Administr ators a3d civic Dr. Downing belonged to maly professional o r g a n j - za ti o n s a n d d i e d in May, L955, -8- �FR,EDLAWSON EIDUCATOR F re d l a w so n sta rte d tir e fir st seholastic basketball a n d t h e fi rst o ffi ci a r football teams in Roanoke. Fred D. Lawsonr s, rr€rtive of Roanoke, was born in Lggs i n R o an o ke co u n ty. H e was one of eleven childr en of M r , a n d M r s . B e l fo rd V . L a wson. Fred f,awson attended the Gregory and Gainsboro E1enentary schools i-n Roanoke. rhere was no black high school in Roanoke at that tine; theref ore, he went to Harnpton High school, Harnpton, virginia, in L9tt. He rec.eived his diploma from Ha.npton High school and his college degree from Ha.mpton Instj-tute. While at Harnpton, Lawson ex_ eelled in both football and basketbarl. He played -balf back for the Hampton rnstitute tean for four years. He earr:ed, all c.r.A ., h o n o rs for thr ee ras a member of the Hanpton rnstitute National Basketball Chanpionsh5.p . consecutive tearn that year s. He won the lawson cane back to his home in the fall of Lgt? to teach Manual fraining and physical Edueation at the old Harrj-son High school. His coaehj-ng career began at Hamison High School, rn t92o, the first seholastic basketball gane to be played in Roanoke was between Har^rison High and Danville , virginS.a. People cEunefrou alr over the city, both white and black, to see this game. Fred trawson started the first official football tea.m in L923, 4t the o1d Harrison started coaching football in ras a problem. He traveled lianpton Institute, and rnany Also when he 4ign school-. Roanoke, football equipment to v.M.r., Duke university, other eoa:hes who gave him old football :o use. From D3a cntil schools, where he knew equipment for the teams L947, when T,awson retired -9- from active ' �coaching, he had won many football a n d N a t i on a l . chanpionships, both State H e a l so h ad ehanpionship:tr aek team s . and field F r e d D o u g l a s l a w so n ser ved. the Roanoke City School Sys tem'from L9t7-L950 and died on November 3, L965. -10- �C}IRISIOPHER CI{AMBERIIN WIII,IAIVIS MORTICIAN christopher williams supported every com;i:unity project directed toward the betterment of hls race' his town, and his state. Mr. Williams was born June 3, L882, in Hanpton, VirHe attendginia, to Dabney and lucy Chanberlin tf illia:ns. ed the public schools artd was gfaduated from Harnpton Institute. Mr . Willians moved,with hi-s fani.ly to Roanoke i-n L9LL, a3d joined the First Bapti-st Church. He served for many years as a memberof the Trustee Board. In L9tZ, h€ opened the C.C. Willia.ms Funeral Home at 126 Gilner Avenue, N.W., artd remained in business until his in its present location' death, thj.s funeral home is still and C.C. Wiltiarns Memorial Park is naned for him. Christopher Willia.ns yvas one who li.ved and worked for the benefit of his fellownen and sought always to heLp any one of them to clinb the ladder of suceess. Mr. Willi-aros, straightforward.' a businessman, was of the highest caliber, the qualitles were exemplified honest, and practical. He was partithroughout his dealings with the public. whose cularly understanding in cases involving individuals income d.id not enable them to meet the costly demands of providing adequate burial care for their loved ones. Christopher Willians for thirty years was president of the Magic City Building and f,oan Associ.ation; for twentyfive yea.rs he served the Willia.m Hunton Braneh Y.W.C.A., &s its presid,ent; and from its very organizatj-on in L94L until his passi.ng he was presid,ent of the Willians Hunton life Saving Crew. C h r i s t o p h e r W i l l i a m s d . i e d o n D e c e m b e r9 , L 9 5 2 . -11- �SADIE IAWSON EDUCATOR hard. working, d'ed'icaled Miss Lawson was a strict, in the and principal teacher, aJ:rassistant principal, Roanoke City Schools for tll years' jn the latMiss I,awson, a native of Roarroke.,waF borrr she county' ter part of the eighteen hund,red.sin Roanoke wasoneofe}evenchj.ldrenofMr.arrdMrs.Belfordv.],awson. in the Roanshe recej.ved. her grammar sehool edueation. at certificate oke city schools but received' her teaching i-n Petersburg' Normal and Industrj-al Institute the Virginia This school later becane virginia state college' virgini.a. train5sg for At that tine, the city offered no high school black students. Mi-ss l,awson returrred After receivisg her certificate, begart to Roanoke to begin her teachi-ng career but Eoon the uniworking for a Bachelor's Degree. she studied at coversity of Pittsburgh, the un5.vers5.ty of chic&$or and to receive credi.ts and then returned to Iunbia university the Teachers College for her degree from Western Reserve UniversitY in Cleveland, Ohio' ExMiss T,awson taught for three years in the Roanoke state Teachers college and tension Department of virginia of Add,ison durlng L945-L9t+5 served as acting principal state schoot term. she was also Dean of women at cheney proiects teachers College and serrred as director of speci-al at HanPton Institute ' Girl Scout troup leaders in Roartoke' one of the first Miss lawson has studied she serrred. Later as a trai.ner. problems of youth as a member of the city-wide youth comof mission and. as chairman of the Public Affairs Committee t h e Y . W . C . A . B o a r d ,o f D i r e c t o r s ' a Miss lawson never made more thas $5OO.OO month teaching. �Miss lawson has been a leader of ed,ucationn civic, and r e l i g S. o u s a e ti vi ti e s. sh e is a past pr esident of vir ginia T e a c h e r s A sso ci a ti -o n a n d of the Roanoke feaeher s Association. L g ? 8 , E rt Wi 1 l i a -m Flem ing High School, a voeational building was na.med.for sadie and Fred f,awson for their eontributions in educati-on. In Miss i,awson is reti.red and spend,s most of her tine in a b i g w h i te , fra n e fa n i J-y home on Hollins Road, Nor theast. -1 ?- �FIEIVIING E. AT-.,EGNDER PUBITS}TERIMINISTER Flemlng Alexander founded The Roanoke Tribune in L939, and was the founder of other newspapers in Martinsville' lynchburg, and West Virglnia. Charlottesville, He was a native of Christiansburg and was born on April L4, 1888. Mr. Alexander never knew his parents. later he was adopted by the Alexander fa.nily, who gave him a home. Alexander Fleming's faith led hj.n to become a Baptist His anbition led hi-n to be the founder of fhe minis.ter. Roanoke tri.br.rne, whi,ch for years was the only black newspaper in West Virginia. when he was a student at engaged in printing He first Virginia Seminary College in T-,ynchburg. He wor.ked for !@ before he returned Atlanta World and Thg louisville_Eeporter to teach printing ln lynchburg. 0rdai-ned into the ninistry, he would go on to hold pastorates in Rustburg, Christj-ans- . burg, and Buehanan, The Roanoke tribrrne has always considered itself a of its subscribers and cornmunity newspaper. the najority employees were and are black. The Tribune has traditionally ad.dressedissues of concern to all Roanoke citizens. Publisher and for:nder Alexander wrote the edj-torials, and he for his conservative frequently found hinself critieized spoke up for black representation on City views. &_EtEg Cor:ncil, and although Alexander never won his own campaigns, he lived to see a blaek nan elected, mayor of R.oanoke. He was active in the Boy Scouts, the Roanoke Merchants Association, the Masons, and the Roanoke Civie T,eague. Mr, Alexander served in the U. S . Arny during Worl_dlrlar f a n d d i e d o n D e e e m b e rt 3 , 1 9 8 0 . -L4- �MRS. VIRGINIA Y. i,EE IIBRBRIAN s e r v e d at the Gai-nsboro Brartch M r s . T . , e e ,a l i b r a r i a n , She deof t h e R o a no ke C i ty P u b l i c T,ibr ar y f o r 4 J $ y e a r s . to h e l p i n g o ther s ' v o t e d h e r l ife Virgi,nia' November 22, Mrs. Lee was born in MeComas, L906, to Robert a3d T,ula B. Young. She was educated in the public schools of Roanoke and graduated from the Roartoke Mrs. Public School Systen as Valedictorian of her class. and was Lee continued her ed,ucatj.on at Hampton Institute cLass that graduated fron the school of l,iin the first ' brary Science. Mrs. T,ee returned to Roanoke in t927 and, taught at the librarian of the old Gilner School. In t928, she beca.me where she served until L97t. Gainsboro Branch librilV, One of her mai.n coneerns and hobbies was to buiLd and of "Black History" books during her assemble a collection She trrrew the day would tenure of service at this liUrary. come when there would, be a great j-nterest in her "Black History Coll-ection. " 0n September 25, L982' a room in the Gainsboro Branch in Library was na"med her honor for her Afro-American Collection. -r)- �AIE]GIIDER ARTHUR TERREIL HUMANIfARIAN 0n Deeember7, L9+t, Alexander Terrell founded the Hunton life Saving and First Aid Crew. Alexander Terrell was born in Roanoke on August 20, 1905, To Mr. and Mrs. Glen Terrell. was an anbulartce dri-ver for the Norfolk and Ierrell Western Railway when he organized the crew as his wartine contribution Eerrell's wi-fe, Bessye' helped, organize the women's aux5.liary for thg crew. that di.fferent memhad a trailer lhe crew at first bers would hook'to the back of their personal cars when they went out on.€m€rgency calIs. was on the road, transporting a polio vj.cti-n to terrell Richmond, when his only chiLd was bortr'. Between his job with the Norfolk and Western and his work with the crew, Terrell- said he assisted in many rescues ' never worrying about whether the victim was blaek or white. Terrell spent nearly twenty-five years with the crew before stepping down, saying that he felt he had done all he could to help the erew. He resigned from the crew as captain in L959 bu! returned in t962. He remained with the crew unti-l the late 1960 's , duri.ng which perS.od a new crew hal1 was bui-It. died in Lewis-Gale Hospital on Alexander Arthur terrell July t9 , t982, . -L6- �DR. HARRYT. PENN rs[ DENr /polr,tcrAN In June, t948, Dr. Penn was the first black appointed to a school board in the south and the first black to run for city council in L942 and L944. Harry Penn, a native of l,ynchburg, graduated from Virginia SemS-nary. Later he continued his education ald received. his dental degree from Howard university. Dr. Penn was a former presid.ent and board chai-rmal of He had been president of the Burrell- Memorial Hospital. Dental Society, the 01d Dominion Dental Western District Society, and the National Dental Associ-ation. He was a former president of the Roanoke Civic leauge, the United Dencitizens council, and was active in city and district He was also a leader in the Boy Scout ocratic pol5-tics. movement. . of segr-egation, D1. Penn was active in l,ong a critic conmittee and was a member of €ul interracial raee relations Dr. which fi.rncti.oned.in 1950 to improve race relations. Penrr always disliked and despised segregation. In t959-60, h€ orgalized lemar Manufacturing Compasy, a d,ress martufacturing p1ant, to give employment to blacks . It was closed. because other prominent blacks did not help to suppo'rt this busi-ness venture. In t9?5, Penn Hal1, zrt Patriek Henry High School was naned, 5n nemory of this great and outspoken leader for his work in education and civic orgartizations. Dr. Harry t. Penn did nany things to help blacks in the Roanoke Va1ley, artd died in May, L963. a7t �MRS AI]DREYIONG WHITT,OCK. . MUSfCIAN,/AR[IST Audrey Whitlock is a womanof many faces! musician, playwrite, mother , housewi.f and grartdmother. e, artist, From early childhood to the present, she has shared her talents extensively. She expressed that her next endeavor is to explore the art of sculpturing because one's ' can be reflected i-n narty ways. artistic ability Mrs. Whitlock is a native of Christi.anburg artd was born in January, 1905, to Mr. and Mrs. Edgar long. Both art and musi.c reveal rea15-ty and they both are seen in shadows. A11 People have sone beauty in then that an artj-st can fj-nd., some features being more noticable than others. Mrs. Whitloek spends much of her tine teaching nusic jn her home. She studied musi,c in Philadelphia rrnder the late Carl Dighton, attended Knoxville College and Howard in nusic from and recelved her certificate University, Oxford Conservatory of Music in Chicago. She wrote an operetta called "She Devil is a Busy Manr" whieh she has copyrighted,. Mrs. Whitlock is married and has accomplished nany things to make the conmunity proud. -18- �WEI{DSII,H. BUBIER DETrtrsr /pot ttr:crAN black ever to was the first a dentist, Wendell Butler, serve as Chairman of the Roanoke City School Board. Dr. Butler was born in Carthage, Texas, in L924. He View College in Texas. In of t 9 ) & , h e ap p l i e d to th e d .e ntal school of the Univer slty The state T e x a s , w h ere b l a cks w e re n ot allowed to attend. transportatj-on and tuition of lexas instead paid Butler's majored in biology a t P ra i ri e to Howard University in Washj.ngton, D.C . , where he earned hi s d o c t o r ate i n d e n ti stry. He moved to Roanoke in L953 wlth his wif e. B u tl e r consented to ser ve in the Roar toke I n t h e si xti e s, That step into public Redevelopment and Housing Authority. ca reer on the school boar d and city I ife l e d t o a p o l i ti ca l council. g o a l - o n th e s chool boar d was clear ' He wanted fhat is, imbalance. the Roanoke Schools to be iree of racial for he wanted to assure that no school fought a reputation Seven years later he was chairmart' being "white or black". Bu t l e r's a n d t h e f i r st blaek e ve r to hold this position. In his 1980 carnpaign for city counci-l, Butler struck that directly a t th e R o a n o ke F o rwar d. businessm en' s ticket s w e p t a l l se ve n co u n ci l se ats in L976. He cr iticized "lavish spending" on downtown nal1s and parking garages and advocated instead strong higher pol5.ee and fire proteetion education program for juven5.les. budgets alternati.ve for and a to be A D e mo cra t, h e b e ca .methe seeond black in histor y el e e t e d t o R o a n o F e's Ci ty Cor :ncil . Noel Taylor ' s election to nayor paired two black nen in the top two positions in a predoninantly white city government for the first time .i-n Virginj.a's hi story . D r . B u t1 e r tinually b e l o n g s to num er ous or ganizations d.eseribed. as a "soft a n i m p a c t o n th e h i sto ry spoken" indilldual o f Roanoke. -L9- and is con- who has had �NOE],C. IAYIOR MTNTSTER/Potl[rCrAN In L9'i1, Noel Taylor was eleeted as the first bl_ack m e m b e ro f t h e R o a n o k ec i t y c o u n c i l . rn t9?4, he was elected as the first black vice mayor of the city of Roanoke and b e e a . n et h e f i f s t b l a c k m a y o r i n O c t o b e r , L 9 ? 5 . I.loel Taylor is a native of Bedford County, Virginia ahd was born July L5, Lg24. Mayor Taylor grad.uated Cun l,aud.efrom Bluefield state college in L949, reeeiving the Bachelor of Scj.ence Degree, and from Virginia Seninary and Co11ege, in June L955, with the Degree of Bachelor of Divinity. He earned the Master of Arts Degree in Religious Education at the New York university Graduate school in L963. rn May of L959, virginia seminary and corlege conf erred upon h5-n the Degree of Divinity. rn May L983, Bluefield state college conferred. an honorary degree of Doctor of f,aw, sinee becoming pastor of High street Baptist chureh in May, L96L, Dr . Taylor balanced his pastoral- responsibil-ities with nany ci.vic aetivities, serving as moderator of the va1ley Baptist State Conventi-on. He organS.zedthe Brotherbood Youth Retreat and women's T,eadership conference during his tenure as president of the virginia Baptist state convention. Dr. [aylor is now serving his third term as mayor of the city of Roanoke, During his tenure as mayor, he has recommended and the city has adopted a Fair Housing Plan which has been suecessfully implenented. He also recommendedEuj Affirnative Action Program. fhe city of Roanoke, under Mayor taylor's guid.ance and leadership, won the ALl-Anerica City Award in L979 and in t982. Noer c. laylor has won numerous awards and citations artd has served on many important Boards of Directors in Virginia. Mayor Taylor is married and has two daughters. -2A- �WIIIIAM B. ROBERISON EDucAron/por,rrrcrAN Wi-lliam B. Robertson was the first black to serve on the personal staff of a Virginia governor. Governor linwood Holton appointed hirn as Director of Minority and ' C o n s u m e rl f f a i r s . Wiliian Robertson was born on January 3, L933, and is the son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Irving Robertson. He was educated in the Roanoke City Schools. He graduated from Bluefield State College in B1uefield, West Virginia, and reeej,ved a master's degree from Radford University. When.he lived j-n Roanoke, Robertson was named outstanding young man by the Roanoke Jayeees. He was a teacher. at T,ee Junior High School and later becane Supervisor or Elementary Edueation for the city schools. Robertson becane the first black to seek public office i.n Roanoke i-n L969, when he ran for the General Assembly. Robertson headed.the first statewi.de sale of apple jelly for the Virginia Jaycees, which resulted in purchase of a summer eanp in Bedford County for retarded child,ren. In 1973-75, Robertson served as Director of Consumer Affairs for the District of Columbia. Willian B. Robertson was a Peace Corps director in Kenya from L976-79. He said the Roanoke-Kisuma si,ster eity prograJn is considered the best eunongexchange prograJns between cities in the united states and those in lhird world Nations. ' Willias Robertson's present position is the Assistant Director of the 0ffiee of rnstallations and Economi,cAd.: justnent for the Department of Defense in washington, D.c . Mr. Robertson i-s narried and has two ehild,ren. -2t- �RICHARD T,. CHTIBB EDUCAfOR principal Mr. Chubb has been at Hurt Park Elementary Schoolsincetg?L.Hecalnetothispositionaftera}ong flghttokeephisprincipalshipwhentheall-b}ackHarri.son Elenentaryschoolwasclosed'asaresultofd'esegrationof t h e s e h o o ls ' M r . C h u b b i s a n a t i v e o f R o a r r o k e a r t d w a s b o r r e oIVIrs' y nMa of Mr' and is one of three children 28, tg35, He r'eon irllti;"rb school svseducatedin the Roa'okecitv was tenarrdgraduatedfromBluefieldStateCollegeinLg60.He earnedlrisnaster'sdegreeatWesterrnKentuckyUniversity ' in Bowling Grsslrr KentuckY School in Cli-fton taught at ]efferson High Mr. Chubb to Roanoke and two yea'rs' He returned for Forge, Virgi'nia' taughtSciencearrdE:eglis|r-atBookerT'WashingtonJr.High School.arrdwasaguidarrcecounseloratMorrroeJrrnj.orHigh t"noo:;nee park, formerry a predominanthe has been at Hurt lyblacirschoolj.naneighborhoodnoted'forvandalism,Chubb hasbeenapplaudedbytheschooladninistration,theSchool Board,arrd*ni."arrdblackparentsforthejobhehasdone. oneofMr.Chubb'saccomplishmentshasbeentheestabtislrnentofaconmunitycenteratotheschool,whichisused of the neighborhood' day and evening by residents L977' efforts ' oh Febrr'rary L7 ' apprec j-ation of his In lturtParkgtementarySchooldeclaredaRichardChubbDay. Mr.Chubbhasreeeivednuu}erousawardsandeitations' t h e m o s t c o v e t e d ' b e i n g t h e . , H u m a n R e l a t i ofor s A w a work ewith v e d n . his r d ' ' r c e i given ' L9?9' This awarci was on March 30 parentsand'stud.entsatHurtParkElementarySchool,a}so forhisinterestini:lp}ementingthefederalbreakfastpfo= -22- �gran, policy his work with cornnunity education, and his open door toward the community. M r . Ch u b b h a s a stro n g to become aware of their u o u s l y s e e ks to ma ke l i fe Mr. Chubb i.s narried concer n and desir e potential, individual b etter for to help p e o p l e and he continthe people. all and has one daughter. �ss\- \Sr\xs lowed only srriking qettt -\-:=s-\--- t2 hits -S-s\\sS-'\-::\- and five <--=!:-s> :s eaxned runs in \:- ::- L3 Z/3 innings, out 14 anq walking Al f r e d H o l l a n d gosi-ti-orr- Ls. ..tt!t\ four. e n j o ys p l aying t\e. P\LL<{ejtrLr pltcher . -2+- basebaIl, and his Rt..r-LLLqs \s pr e- s. s.e.L:gt �AIFR,ED HO],],AI[D BASEtsAII PTTCHER Alfred Hol1and was born in Roanoke, Virgfoia, and. educated i_n the Roanoke City School System. He played basebarr for r,ucy Addison High schoor and later was a rerief pitcher with salem,s carolina r,eague entry. Holla'd' was 10-10 as a starter in class AAA in Lg?g. He cane to the Giants' orga*i,zation that year i.n the trade which sent Birl Madlock to the pittsburgh pirates. In 1980, Ilo1land, was in 54 Giants , gannes, with a 5_4 record and L.76 earned run average. He finished ?_5 a'd had a 2.4t ERA. rn L982, Holland finished his second season with the Glants, BS a fill-i:r for injured Vido_Blue. In his first gib league start, Holla'd allowed just five hits in eight in'ings a'd conbined with reliever Greg M5.:rton for a 3-0 shutout ou the SanDiego padres. In two more starts, Holland had no decision but allowed only tZ hits and five earned runs in L3 z/3 innings, striking out 14 and walking four. ALfred Ho].Land enjoys playing baseball, and his present positi-on is with the philadephia phillies as a reU.ef piteher. -24- � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2724/VC_11_Profile_Achievement.PDF a51d2befa6a89d71b284eca4bc8b0f14 PDF Text Text Virginia Mignonne Chubb Profile Achievement: of for Virginia Mignonr.,,. worked Ohub6'has As a teacher, good and in excellence education, she has developed with of thatshe hastaught. communication the parentg students for she of As a member this community, hasworked peace, justice, equality. and racial Virginia.Sheis the. was bornin Roanoke, Mignon Delaney Chubband the lateLeon of daughter Mrs.Perneller at of Degree Bluefield Chubb. Shetook her Bachelor Science of at and her Masterof Education the University StateCollege Virginia. CitySchools.Over Mignonretired fromthe Roanoke manyaccolades. Someof the more the years,she received of Teacher StateSocialStudies notable oneswerethe Virginia �Page2 the YearAward;the MaryHatwood Futrell Awardfor Distinguished Leadership Education; NAACP in the outstanding Educator Award;the National conference christians of and JewsAwardfor Exemplary and Contribution Building Life to Brotherhood the Community; the Martin in and Luther King,Jr. Awardfor Peace, Justice, and Equality. Mignonne was citedseveral timesin the Roanoke Times& WorldNewsfor the BlackHistory Project and thb World'sFair, two activities she provided her students that for eachyear. Whileteaching WasenaElementary at School, she tooka group of sixthgraders and parents France to and ltaly. The PTAof "for WasenaSchoolpresented plaque a withthe inscription outstanding service her students." to �Page3 pn Someof the boards whichMignonhas servedare Catholic thoseof the Roanoke Schools, Harrison the Museum American Culture, Roanoke the ValleyPreservation of African Foundation, American the Association University of Women,the NAACP, Kisimu the SisterCity,andthe SCLC(Southern Conference). Leadership Christian the e of Mignon, is the author a book,Finding Spark, selfwithtips on developing students' readers whichprovides she Services, of esteem. Furthermore, is the founder Creative : and Investors. by Baskets Mignonne, the Northwest , ., -{/. 1 �Page4 One of the highlights Migl1or.,,..',.'S was working of career withformer Senator Granger MacFarlane an intern 1988 as in and Delegate Clifton Woodrum, as a legislative lll assistant during 1989General the Assembly. Shealsoserved he on district committee the election the Honorable Douglas for of L. Wilder Governor Virginia. as of At present, Mignor:::'-,. member the Bluefield is a of State AlumniAssociation, Virginia the Retired Teachers Association, the Cathotic Daughters America, Kisufru of the SisterCity Group, Southern the Christian Leadership Conference, the (life), Virginia Conference Parents of and Teachers andthe National Association the Advancement Colored for of People (life). Moreover, is a member St. Gerard's she of Catholic Church. �Page5 of as is Mignonne serving Co-Chairperson the At present, whichwill for Committee the StateSCLCConvention, Roanoke on Hotelin Roanoke June21-23,2000. be hefdat theWyndam by wa$ Conference founded Leadership Christian The$duthern King,Jr. Luther the lateDr.Martin quotation takenfrorilDr. King: 'We is favorite Mignonne's that in mustusetimecreatively, the knowledge thetime'is 'ripe ahruays to do nlght.'" � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia Mignon Chubb-Hale Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia Mignon Chubb-Hale Interviewer: Chris Boucher Date: 16 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 35:24 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 16 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Virginia Mignon Chub-Hale; Chris Boucher Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Chubb-HaleVirginia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue_[compressed].mp3 76ec0225889649fa8dd2cb8aabc9e0e4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue1.pdf d50d42c98b655daa5df585a97f11c44a PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue2.jpg 76cb8fd85887939aa061c94110a55080 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue5.jpg b333b0443784218d33a6945561893a5f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue6.pdf b7f06fe122d53301a0bde8710f38a296 PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue8.jpg 181d17a8ea69dab028437a609777444e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue7.jpg 4e7c78703bc3c6a91da7624795ebf7a0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue16.pdf 0b35dcf5b1b2677a87e0ba33ae1ef114 PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/MasonPeggySue26.jpg ec0d38605a14c1add7d2b8824965107d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/PM_12_Curriculum_.pdf e8b9d64a633ed220332c2c149a34a904 PDF Text Text CURRICULUM VITAE for PEGGY SUE MASON Address: 1910 Rorer Avenue S.W. Roanoke. VA 24016 EDUCATIONAL Telephone: (703) 982-2154(Home) (703) e81-2994 (Work) BACKGROUNI) Dates fnsdtutions and Location I)egree 1952-t956 North Carolina College,Durham, North Carolina B.A. Major - Sociology Minor - Social Studies 1959 - Summer HamptonInstitute,Hampton,VA Certificate for ElementaryEd. 09/63- 0t/64 The Universityof Maryland Overseas Division,Tokyo, Japan M.A. Degree Requirement 09166 0I/67 Our Lady of the Lake College SanAntonio,TX M.A. Degree Requirement 0l/68 - 05/68 The Universityof Maryland Overseas sion,Frankfort, Divi Germany M.A. Degree Requirement 08169 The University of Virginia, Charlottesville,Virginia M.A. Degree Major - Mental Handicapped Children **Note - To date, I hsve completed over 50 semester hours beyond my M.A. degree. AREAS OF TEACHING Elementary Education Grades 1-7. - Middle SchoolandHigh School HistoryandSocialStudies MentalRetardation Elementary Middle SchoolandHigh School �EMPLOYMENT Martinwille Clty Public Schools Martinwille, Virginia American DependentsSchool Tokyo, Iapan Edgewood ElementaryPublic Schools SanAntonio, Texas American DependentsSchool Frankfurt, Germany (Return to the Statesafter the suddendeath of my husband). Present. Roanoke City, Public School,Roanoke, Virginia THIS TSMY 31ST YEAR TEACHING MENTALLY DISABLE CHILDREN. PROFES SIONAL DEVELOPMENT Membership in the Followine: National Education Association Virginia Education Association Roanoke Education Association Roanoke Valley ReadingAssociation National Council for Exceptional Children Past - Roanoke Valley Associationfor Children with Learning Disabilities. Charter Member- Roanoke Valley 4-H LeadershipAssociation Life Member in the Virginia Congress Parents- TeacherAssociation BOARD OF DIRECTORS OAST) Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance - Board ofDirectors TeacherCenter Planning- Board ofDirectors, Roanoke City Public Schools The Federal Credit Union - High StreetBaptist Church, Roanoke, Virginia - Board of Directors Virginia Extension 4-H Board of Directors, Roanoke, Virginia �COMMITTEES Servedon the Superintendent ofRoanoke City Public SchoolsPlacementCommittee for Special Education. Representative the Roanoke Education Association. for StaffDevelopment - Roanoke City Public Schools. Roanoke Valley 4-H Virginia Extension Services- Camp ScholarshipAssociation. OFFICES HELI) President- Chapter 134 National Council for Exceptional Children. President- ClassroomTeachersAssociation Vice-President- Southwest CommunityNeighborhood Alliance Recording Secretaryand Parliamentarian,Roanoke Alumnae Chapter of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. - A Public ServiceInternational Organzation. PTABoard ofDirectors CHURCH MEMBERSHIP Active menrberof the High StreetBaptist Church - 34 years SundaySchool Teacher- 30 years Past President- SeniorLeague - l0 years Member of the Wednesday Night Bible Study Class Past Secretary- WednesdayBible Study Class Past- Public RelationsOfficer for the SundaySchoolDepartment Past Superintendent the IntermediateDepartment SundaySchool for - Women'sDay SteeringCommittee Participant Member of the Courtesy Guild Anchor of Hope Committee JanuaryB irthmonth Or ganization VOLUNTEER SERVICE American Cancer Society-Neighb orhood Collector American Red Cross-StudentCoordinator Lincoln TerraceElementarySchool 4-H Roanoke, Valley YMCA Family Life Center Fund Raising Campaign Y-Teens (YWCA- Roanoke Valley) Parent/Teacher Association-Lincoln TerraceelementarySchool-Boardof Directors �AWARDS 1989 OutstandingSpecialOlympics Teacher Area 8 1993 25 Years Plaque As a volunteer for 4-H-Roanoke Valley Extension Services. EducationalLeadershipServiceAward in Observanceof the Martin Luther King, Jr. Celebration. Awarded at High StreetBaptist Churclq Anchor ofHope, Family and Community DevelopmentCenter. 1992 TeacherRecognition Award Selectedto representthe ProfessionalStafffor the CiE of Roanoke. L991, 1992, and 1993 American Red Cross- Certificate of Appreciation for Volunteer ServiceBevond the Call ofDutv. l99l JC Penny Golden Rule Award , Certificate of Appreciation which read as follows; JC Penny wishes to upress appreciationfor your community service and congratulatesyou onyour nominationfor the Golden Rule Awurd s' Mrs. Masonfirmly believes and strives to confirm that public service will always be a part of her character. SPECIAL AWARDS 1974 Mother of the Year - High StreetBaptist Church, Roanoke, Virginia. 1974 OutstandingElementaryTeacher (an award sharedby OutstandingElementaryTeachersthroughout the United States.) �r978 Life Membershipin the Virginia Congressof Parent-Teacher Association. Roanoke City Public Schools,Nominee Reward ofMerit. r979 National Teacherof the Year Award Program. The first participant to representthe Roanoke Clty Public School Systemin the National Teacherof the Year Program. 1980 Jennie Brewer Award - In recognition of an outstanding teacherof handicapped children presentedby the COUNCIL FOR EXCEPTIONAL CHILDREN - CHAPTER 134. 1985-1986 Certificate of Appreciation - Recognition of Outstanding Volunteers Servicewhich has improved the quality of educationin our schools. t987 Award for DistinguishedService- Virginia Congressof Parentsand Teachersin recognition and appreciationof outstandingleadershipand serviceto children and youth. Certificate of Appreciation for dedicatedservicesa Sunday School Teacher(over 30 years). High StreetBaptist Church, Roanoke, Virginia. February 19,1994. Elected for the Virginia StateFederation(CEC) Council for Exceptional Children -Governor-at-Large. MARITAL STATUS Widow, two daughters. Bettina S. Mason - Age29. Graduateof JamesMadison University Harrisonburg,VA At present- in the M.A. DegreeProgram, JamesMadison University. KellyM. Mason - Age26. Graduateof Yale University \, New Haven, CT. At present- in the Doctoral Program at the College ofwilliam and Mary, Williamsburg, VA � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/PM_28_Recomm._TofY.PDF 939fea07def3a1a74e8a644cb20e12ef PDF Text Text t9; Roanoke City PublicSchools Department of Pupil PersonnelServices P. O. Box 13145.Roanoke,Virginia 240-11 40 DouglasAvenue,hl.W. (703)98t-2744 .|3, September 1978 T0 Whom MayConcern: it Mrs. PeggyMason has requestedthat I write a letter of reconmendation concerningher nominationto be teacher of the year in virginia for 1979. I have \nownPeggyMason a teacher for the educablementaily as r e ta rd e d fo r a ro u n dse v ento eight year s. Her classr oom ovided. pr a ch e e rfu l o u tl o o k a n d wasm ost iltqllectually stimulating so that and help for I g i fte d ch i l d w o u l d b e able to find r esour ces l e arn i n g i n a w a y th a t was both inter esting and chailehging. She w as a l so co n ce rn e d b o ut the welfar e of her studentsand their a f a m i l i e s a s w e ] l . S h eh a d g o o dr e l a t i o n s h i p sw i t h h e r c h i l d r e n ' s parents. Shewas very wel'l respectedand a part of her local s c h o o.l M rs. P e g g y so n a s n o t only pr esident and pr esident elect of Ma w o ur co u n ci l fo r E xce p tionalchildr en but she has beenactive in l h i l g ryq n i za ti o ne ve nwhennot hotding office. Shewas pr esident in 1975-76. M r s. P e g g y so ns a cheer ful' andpositive per sonail the tim es Ma i I have knovn her. She has alwa.ys had a professional respect for h er fe l l o w te a ch e rs. I ammost pleased to recormend Mrs. Peggy lrtason be Teacherof to the Year for 1979 in the Cornnsnwealth Vr'rginia. of Si ncer ely, Eugene I'hyer H. Pr esident, Chapter134 Council for ExceptionalChildr en SchoolPsychologist EHM/th �ROANOKE NEIGHBORHOOD ALLIANCE, INC. P o. BoX 12354 . 824 CAMPBELL AVE.. S. W. . RoANoKE. vtRGtNrA 24Azs o pHoNE; (7o3) 9Bz-3st3 Sept 13, l97B T O I ^ I H O MI T MAY CONCERN: The Board of Directors for the Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance voted unanimously to pass a resolution in support of )Irs. peggy Sue I'Iason as a candidate f or the Teacher of the Year Award. Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance specifically wished to acknowledge the tremendous efforts that Mrs. Mason has exerted in our movement to improve the general lifestyle of the residents of our community. rn addition, we recognize the high proffessiona1 qualities that she has exhibited in her job as a teacher. It has been resolved by the board of directors for the Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance that Mrs. Peggy sue Mason be given comPlete supPort as a candidate for the Teacher of the Year Award. Respectfully yours, 'ald*l [.ItilJ&s"sl^l-, Abdul Mubdee Shakir Associate Director AMS/c1c �Roanoke City PublicSchools rSr l Division for Educational Programs P. O. Box 13145,Roanoke, Virginia 24031 DouglasAvenue,N.W, (703)981-2876 Septemberl, l Re: Teacher of the Year Recommendation Hrs. PeggySue Mason, Special Education Teacher Huff Lane School R o a n o k eC i t y P u b l i c S c h o o l s D e a r Si r s : I am very pleased to have the opportunity individual as teacher of the year. to recommend n outstanding a I h a v e k n o w n M r s . M a s o n a s a f e l l o w t e a c h e r , a m e m b e ro f t h e C o u n c i l for Exceptional Children, and for the last three years as a special education teacher under my supervision. Special education teachers, even more than teachers of the nonh a n d i c a p p e d ,m u s t b e v e r y s p e c i a l p e o p l e . T h e r e m u s t b e a n a b u n d a n c e o f p a t i e n c e a n d c o m p a s s i o n , a s w e l l a s t h e k n o w l e d g ea n d e x p e r i e n c e s required for effective classroom performance. In all of these areas, M r s . M a s o nh a s c o n t i n u o u s l y d e m o n s t r a t e d a l e v e l o f e x c e l l e n c e o b s e r v able in very few individuals. Personally, I feel that her nomination is a long overdue honor, and that her selection as teacher of the year would be recognition of her outs t a n d i n g s e r v i c e t o y o u n g h a n d i c a p p e dc h i l d r e n . Sincerely, '', t\'r'f-.2 (l d r4-4/' .t,l l-0 Robert B. sieff S u p e r vs o r , S p e c i a l E d u c a t i o n i R B Se p : 1978 �Blach EouthwestNeighborhoodAlliance P. O. Box 12354 €t28 CAMPBELLAvE., S. W. ROANOKE. VIRGINIA 24025 (703) 942-3s13 OFFICERS OTIS OGDEN PRESIDENT PEGGY VICE Sept. ll, MASON 1978 PRESIDENT MARTHA OGDEN RECOFDINGSECRETARY To wHoll rr MAy CoNCERN: ""..=I::f,i"Ti=*",^", I^Ie highly recommend i'Irs. G L o R TB R A r r o N A T R E A S u R E Rr e c i p i i e n t award. of the Virginia peggy State Mason as a Teacher of the Year Mrs. I'lason is an outstanding person in the community. She is involved in many civic and community activities. She has been elected by our Alliance for two years consecutive to the Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance Board of Directors and serves exceptiona1ly well on that board. She also serves as vice president of the Southwest Community. Neighborhood (previously, Alliance Black Southwest Neighborhood Alliance).Mrs. people is MasonIs concern and invoLvement especiall.y commenable. with young Not only has Mrs.. Mason contribu.ted of herself to the community, she has been generous in her corrtributions of f unds as we11. iately I,{hen ca11ed upon, Mrs. Mason responds imnedand with enthusiasm to lend the hand that is her involvemenr in many other v'orrhwhile :::i"i:;:::e I ^ I ef i n d M r s . M a s o n t s w o r k i n and her impeccable character make her a great example for our community.invaluable, and pleasing personality our young people.- Sincere 1y yours , O-h eP"* Ot is Ogdenv President � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/PM_30_TofY_1979.PDF 15c495004f42f98809e6ffb909656e35 PDF Text Text t -F I " I t . t ' ! i ? t REWARD OF M EHIT I . 1 9 7 9 NATIONALTEACHER of the PROGMM YEAR AWARD v Y v P E G G YS U E M A S O N , N o m i n e e ROANOKE ITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS C �L 1 (- IDENTIFICAIION A$IDPNETIMINAruINFORMATION \- t t_. �: r t SUPTS. M]JMO. NO. STATI U TtrACI]ER OT TIItr Y]TAII Basic v (include Subject Years of Present -Name and Address Name and A.rldress Sireet face photograpir) color) Age43 Flome Add-ress1910 Rorer Avenue, SW 24016 lluff School Lane Elementary, 44L2 Huff Lane, NW 24012 SpeciaL Tdu.cation - lntermediate a n d G r a d e Level in Data full (in Name,.Mrs, Pesev Sue Mason Name and Location 5.1, Position 9 of School Principal of School Superintendent Total lears of m{R Hxperr_ence 15 Miss Marcla Larson, Huff Lane Elementary 44L2Huff Lane, l{W@12 Mr. M. Don Pack, Roanoke City Schools ;aK-240L7 PREViOUS EXPERIEI{CE Dates Institutions ano. Location % Roanoke City Public Schools, L965-L967 - Edgewood Elementary School, 1963 - L965 - PACAF- Fifth Air Roanoke, SanAntonio, VA - Position Education Special Texas - Special Teaeher Education Teacher Force - Tokyo, Japan - Special Education Teacher L957 - L959 - Roanoke City Public Schools, Roanoke, Virginia - Ilomebound Teacher PROFESS IONAL PREP;'\R.ATIO}{ Dates fnstitutioTs and Location Degree L952-L956- The North Carolina College'- Durham,NC - B. A. Degree Completed 1969 - The Uni{rersity Summer L959 - Hampton Institude, September L966 - January, t v t of Virginia - M. A. Degree Hampton, VA - Certification L967 - Our Lady Of the Lake College, for Elementary Education San Antonio, Texas ,German �o J5 t SKETCTT BIOGRAPT{ICAL ! o �i -:. : L 1a ::: THE STORY OF MY LIFE 1: by PEGGY SIIE HARRIS I'IASON r'. :L :: In 1935 on the Virginia day of the wonderful to LZth family {.: I was to be the z girls ': last in child I was born January, of Elsie this and Kollye closely knit Roanoke, in Harris, family of Sr. Lhree and one boy. ! ::: a: The Lclrd blessed t, :. - proclaims, precious me to be born even 43 years later, in that a family her whose mother children sti1l are her most possessions. a i 1 can not six. personally remember my early childhood My mother keeps those memories refreshed reealling still over bring laughter My father the help working and over of at again stories about in her before age our minds by children that to our lips. died when I was six God, kept her family years of five of the Greyhound Bus Station. age, children She held My mother, together this job with by for 23 years. I shall education. never My first thing a first every sense of of this interesting is why I my first grade teacher, grade teacher the word, stil1 children direction they turn" steps into Mrs. should be. in every that Morris, She was our available today the world Mattie away from home" feel things where the , \// forget was every- "Mother", Her elassroom space. of in was full Who knows, maybe my elassroom must be a place can have an educational experience in every �i i ? 1 -2My first I .a i held children the where principal their was a school School, Gainsboro Elementary school, great in and teachers ai To the respect. they were the kind students, we wanted to grow up to be "just I like." individuals of that see the can still 1i J:U : made school teachers a place in we learned that James from the First the Bible Gainsboro in daily our of and chapters verses the The Reverend A. L. School. Street Jefferson Church on North Baptist Our each morning. school where God was included I remernber eertain devotions. Bible up to mareh into lining classes :a come each year would 1 ti-on to the then church a revival in as well On the in as well My teachers their positions getting together large this as possible. from in elementary the pot- an even school a sec'ure place to be The Leachers see that 1 will this be grateful who passed on to their in life that as I was being helped. and parents I wanted to students for of the importance goal would be reached forever qualified were well school They stressed as leaders. I knew early I t.o have great They gave the learning, individuals, : \ v has always, a church. members of school. where I joined is My family nature. Savior. as physically. an education. to personal as their Christ days, w€ were fortunate cold winter more wholesome atmosphere mentally this of as now, been active stoves bellied accept in.my memory because this things These are vivid the to students an invita- and extend revival to have a "mini" worked closely in these as many lives dedicated a "love to be a teacher for learning." to help others �t . + -3I am glad tr t i* the of :-. t i of a Queen. J :r was rendered school shaping our lives. student knew that if for he would get reported '1 to his My school he misbehaved career in While preparation for to Our lady together that in a and was punished school punishment when he was in Addison, college. send us to the Lucy Addison High School. have never were cemented that able room. "stately" knew each other. where everybody was a cormnunity school the years. : in dose of continued Friendships ;t that parent. 7 This this with They worked so closely a double like the alwaSrs stand when she entered would prineipal name was Miss Queen Williams. shared the responsibility it, where the and respect admiration the parents {:: a generation principal's My first The students : came up in I that I my mother w€ had the college, a course of followed Even though down through been broken faith in study was not financially lo know that if this a. , in course i; I was the : be made for life attend us to play, guilty feel Robinson. Early my major j for : v I saying my favorite that Robinson was my eleventh I had begun to develop activities. Mrs. by adding literature. I can still from "The'Vision hear her Of Sir it saying Larrnfal" a way would I Nevertheless, was Mrs. grade English for reading Ethel as one of ty to hear her recite from the poem, Jqne by James Russell do teacher. Robinson increased loved lines well " teacher a love time leisure reading poems. i Mrs. life in in and we did in High School I had many good teachers not us to follow, Hard work and study were the eollege. we had to personally parts for God desired Lowel1; love �-4'Tis 'Tis is sunmer; lavish on the set asking; the God may be had for only No price away' given is that heaven alone June may be had by the poorest comer. t, il the mailmen, were like i I to miss a day in I had to be ill t at ,1 1.. I E spell being a college a fact studied my paftner. this After I ) I , I l lv I l ) I I I i I in that 1 still and worked hard v possible graduating for and rninordd in I was to be away After me. with the of the business down to I worked my way through respect. years twenty-two who sacrificed was deal- to make a great be grateful forever I will later' My mother education. my college me. on a Carolina for suPPort. and financial M.uch to my regret, me to for being I got appreciate She was a partner to Roanoke expecting ) ) I every girl opportunity her moral Sociology in my 1ife, time of homesickness passed, first I in a member of my family from home without college, first For the Studies. Social I began my college Durham, North College, Here I majot"d work scholarship. CertificaLe Year. Carolina at The North eareer as now, I Attendance a Perfect from Addison High School, graduating After ilv a school end of the sehool. Then as well school. when T receive get a thri1l still snow, etcl or the weather," we attended of hle days. those in sleeL hail, rain, "through .regardlesS etc; " etc; 'l any reason for closed Schools were never from North to there seek emplo;zment in secure a job as a Social city" I got came back Studies My family was no vacancy. another I College, Carolina a job did in teacher. not wanL the Dietary �t: E -Fl iF -5- 4; : ir i: :* l ; - Department at Roanoke Memorial Hospital I worked there for three happy years. While working :: at Roanoke Memorial Hospital, secured a part- I I :: a time job City Sehools" as a Homebound and Substitute These jobs Teacher with were "sandwiched" the Roanoke in between my hours t:. :,.. at the hospital During " the summer of 1958, I left Roanoke Memorial Hospital :J a to work County Center t York. in as a counselor for a summer camp sponsored the Physically This was my first experience After returning to secure a regular to my job I returned worked until the in the teaching at Spring the of field of New Special experience. home from New York, I Rockland Handicapped in New York City, This was a rewarding Education. by the job with once again the Roanoke Public Roanoke Memorial 1959. I was not Hospital I Once again left able Sihools. where the hospital -t i. :. , to take a job Projects" Secretary This ' in Elementary to the Mentally My years end. the Lincoln leave. at Hampton Institute, In August, Virginia at job was to be for was on maternity suntrner school certified as a Secretary an interview Retarded. of waiting for two months, Following while this Public Housing the regular job, Hampton, Virginia I attended to become Education. L959, I received come for Terrace a telephone for a position I was successful a regular call teaching in from Martinsville as a teacher obtaining job finally this for position. came to an �# 11' ; :: r -6- t: 3 !: 1 t i {; : this During virginia. yeas in lr{artinsville, 2\ I worked for r v time I this teaching the MentallY In August Kelly As a result Antonio, Texas, teaching position in as travel as well Betti-na Germany, but and San Japan, Tokyo, and Suzetta' I was able to of my marriage, in From Force" Air States were born, Education Special Dewey M. Mason, Jr., sgt. to the United daughters two lovely and teach travel in person Michelle'. being interest of field 1969 when I Retarded. Lg62 I got married who was a career r:nion, goal was reached in my special degree with received this This of Virginia. the University at Degree in Education a Master's toward working starLed I extensively" secured a I was events, due to unexpected r:nable to keep it. After a tragj-c automobile I had to readjust loved one was killed, After out him. 1! years daughters, and completing I returned to teaching teacher at these nine the Huff accident of being and secured and rewarding a life a job I Special thank ax this with- to my my Master's as the School. years and father for the requirements my Germany in which to building a mother Lane Elementary successful in Degree, Education God for wonderful school. : To me, fly family, most important things fry church, in mY tife" andmy school are still the �t* PHILOSOHTY TEACIIINO OF �L },IY PHILOSOPHY OF EDUCATION bY PEGGY SUE HARRIS MASON by Marguerite Door In The Wall" it t: i paragraphs ingful that philosophy "None of us is perfect. is to be the key statement of Education It "The the most mean- One of DeAngeli. r:ndoubtly could summarize my personal book entitled, literature I once read a children's :. reads as follows: to have crooked legs better J- than a we have. - do withwhat : helping Thal, we have." my pupils in the measure of is all, after I Special to Education What we success: I have sueceeded in hope that sincerely what we can with do the best We can only spirit. a crooked "Succeed by doing with what thev had." of more than just a group of problems nor develop human people A Teacher journey basis and of for learning, a day, of parenthood, Tgrching i" help get special but pupils. in personal their shorrld not hulnan prglqqsion as a guide As their my knowledge of be and 1 must, guide, the road for the l""tfrrg on the (subject trip. I on the matter) in and my keen interest responsibility Any involved" I must aet (my pupils), assume major a verJ is days a week, five some feeling cannot travelers hours six school and arithmetic. writing become involved of my experience, the to As A Guide: these reading, Teaching and not children a classroom. in allowed very of who can spend five teacher with a matter As a teacher many things. I must be many persons. Education, Special is Teaching Tnvolvement: Personal set their the : \-/ goals, establish the limits of the trip in terms of the students' �I t '2-// :.1 and enrich .' aspect every I must know well The better the journey of be able f will better of everything impossible, but the fruits joys, its As' A Teacher I its and how these pupils As a learner my knowledge witl learns he realizes which I learners in the class that learning can coillmunicate books, As the and the new information become more keenly I will subject the research" is easy for aware of to others, to can about my subject to reference class- In order conrnunicating. and relate other include and original teachers, J with the DI pupils field, react its uses, to my own particulal new contributions matter, pupil I am engaged in I must know as much as I communicate, its the posL school room to the preschool f$a* workshop, sheltered as one who knows, As I work in Be A Leainer: _l i g s t is that limits. VNvn" room, on any level for of knowing and learning: responsibilities, be an should I must know; I know. The teacher, I must know much. exemplifies j v I completely noL anything course, the Lhem. one who knows and knows that authority: guide. levels, , matUrity One Who-lhows : As a teacher, An Authority: not guide to am to and interests, gg5gggths- and weaknesses , special_ talents .: whom I for backEror:nds , abilities I know their { progress. and evaluate (pupils) travelers the enL;Ken the way to be taken , determine needs and abilities, matter. the teaeher however, gains and 1 will find learn the new insights some and difficult the need to of other textbooks, teacher, sources for the paths that the as others. along paths �I *t 3 1r s -3- a;_ I ? t 'l iL 4. differ to learn, some be degrees o f desire and be hungry Some will each individual. with -- will and there learn, not want to will i- * ? two extremes. between these ability a :: i: a. realities. : : at .l will the I must face and stages levels different people that fact in process and theit have to accept my pupils I must face many As a teacher, I Must Be A Facer Of Reality: x : ; are what they are I toward maturity. and weaknesses strengths r a. l : ! and place adequacy to himself 3av ;!, A Teacher ts the I will efforts, directly the pupils in of at the students, the I Through my information directly and community. to b.ear. with who have knowledge of administration I will environment their and in some important discover with terms are brought pressures need to know that with look In making evaluations, An Evaluator: the home situations in their.places either must . need to understand i. and this a more accurate takes individual as the be preserved and that on it, and to build it to cling I must perspective. the proper must have some sense of worth individual every that reaLLze in attributes their as I talk the parents, or back- the pupils' grounds " A Parent. Too? : if I am to be neither teachers, by being suceeed. I know that 1 know that. my most perceptive the parents but the learners allowed to psychiatrist, etc; of the children themselves. I etc. critics will teach nor my fellow I rrill serve as second rrarent, etc; a teacher I must be more than first soon be rewarded advisor, big sister, �I t I I I I ! ! I i F -4. - ! E In Marguerite to menfion like I would suurnary, i v ' I t story book, beautiful i ; ! to help This "The Door In The Wall." young people a marvelous somewhere there that understand is DeAngeli's are i ! I they will people who care if accept them for their be open-minded i I i , : is one which try to plan I worth" I attempL to feel enor-lgh to my outlook that about my wants forget see and on life but and desires i : v to mankind" other my life that and be able to adjust av , ; f I make a worthwhil-e goal, I work with changing mores and ideals. t: I will this In achieving young people potential so that to I will feel that reach a world that contribution my pupils their and highest has eonstant �I PNOFESSIONAL DSYNIOPMM{T L L t_ �SPBCIAL AWARDS MOTHEROF THE YEAR - L974 - High Street Church, Baptist OUTSTANDING ELEMENTARY TEACHER - 1974 (An Award Teachers throughout the Unlted States) LrFE shared Roanoke, Virginia by outstanding Elementary MEMBERSHIP rN TI1E VTRGTNIA CoNGRESS OF PARENT-TEACHER ASSOCIATION, 1978 PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT Membership in the Following: Association Education National , - Roanoke Education Edueation Association Virginia Reading Associat j-on lnternationalChildren Council for Exceptional The National NAACP Association Hospital Burrell Association BOARD OF DIRECTORS - Board Of Directors Alliance Roanoke Neighborhood - Board Of Di-rectors Planning TeachelCenter Church - Board Of Directors Baptist Past, Credit Union of lligh'Street COMMT?TEES Served on the Superintendent Special Education of Roanoke City Schools Pl-acement Comrnittee OFFICE IIE],D Council Presi-dent - Local Chapter of the National - Classroom Teachers Association Vice President For Exceptional AT PRESENT Vice President - Southwest Cormnunity Neighborhood Alliance d:ildren for �L {- L EDUC.ITIONAI, AND CTVIC SBVICES { �L Hrcs Stnrer Blprrst Csuncs 2302 Florida Avenue, N. T[. .Rolrorn, VIacnn 24017 TELEPHoNE 563-0T23 L NOEL CHAIRMAN ULAA g2oa OF N. JOINT C. TAYLOR. D. D.. PASToR BOARDE CHURCH BROADY LYNNHOPE CLERK WILLIAM DR., N. W. 47OO a62-lila D. COLEMAN GRANpIN RO, ar4-allae September 15, 1978 To Whom It L L L L L May Conern, I am pleased to give my highest reeommendation for the consideration of Mrs. Peggy Sue Mason as the "Virginia State Teacher Of The Year." She has demonstrated outstanding capabilities in serving the City of Roanoke in a teaching capacity for a number of years. Mrs. Mason is a woman of learning and skiL1. Her profound knowledge and experienee have r,aonfor her wide-spread recognition in her profession. She has performed her offlcial duties in the highest possible manner. Her sincerity and integrity have earned for her the respect and admiration of her fe11ow co-workers and the people of the community. In spite of Mrs. Masonts accomplishments, she has remained unaffected and unassuming. Through her intellectual force and the warmth of her understanding she has done much to aide students with learning problems. She is a woman of great charact,er and wonderful- temperment who enjoys a splendid reputation for honesty, loyality, and concern for others. In addition to her tremendous suecess as an educator, she is also a great worker at the High Street Baptist Church where she has demonstrated her warm-hearted hr:manity and deep concern for the welfare of others. She is a creative teacher who is throughly f arniliar with teaching procedures and policies . lulrs. Mason is highly respected throughout Roanoke and is a delightful person. I am pleased to reconunendher without any hesitation or reservation for the "Virginia State Teacher Of The Yeart' award. Sincerely I yours, YurL& Noel- C. Taylor Minister, High Street Baptist Mayor, City 0f Roanoke NCT/urje Church EXt-, s . w �! HUFF LANE 4412 rJ t PU BLI C CITY ROANOKE ELEMENTARY HUFF ROANOKE. LANE, VIRCINIA SCH()OLS SCHOOL N.W. 24OI2 18, 19?B Septe,nber To l&romIt Hay Concernl It is my prlvilege to recsmrend Mrs. Peggl Sue llason for the rrTeaeher of the Yearn award. She is an outstanding teacher of mentally retarded ehild:ren. Mrs. llasonrs first concem Ls for ttre nel:fare of her students, provir{ing many opporiwrities for ttrem to Learn and become fully functioning nerabers of soeiety. and lovely &tanner ller cmsistent of leadershlp and elassroom managetnentcreates a sonderful atmosphere for learrring and respecting one anottrer. The rapport betreen teacher and students is exemplary. There is a purpoee in everytlring Hrs. Hason provides for students. The elassroom is a living exarple of a learni^ag eenter. It is firll of exciting extrpriments, extriblts, proJects and aacourpllsh* ments. Eaeh student is encouraged to suceeed and to become aecountable for bis behavior. sre pr''orrides tlne rrhen students nay partioipate ln activities nittr students ln the ruegular class* room. Mrs. Mason is highly respected and loved by parents ntro have not hesitated to exprress to me ttrelr appreciatisr for her and errertthj.ng she does for their children. I appreciate the opporhmity to recorunead Mrs. Magon for this honor, for she possesses ar1 t'lre fine qualities of an outstandirc teacher. Slncerely yours, ete;""T'{*-J Mi.ss Mareia L. tarson Principal; Huff Lane $ehooI J ; v t r r ? t �Huff L,ane School Septeurber L9, 1978 v To Whom ft May Concern: ! We commendfor yoer eonsideration our eolleague, Illrs. Pegry Sue S{ason. J of the Edueable F{entally Retarded, Hrs, $lason part of the Huff Lane professional educahas been an integral She has esmbined a high degree eommunity for mar6r years. tional with a compassionate concern for the ability of professional as "Teacher of the Year" As a teacher in her care, and in so doing has set a remarkable example for all of us. children J &Irs, Mason has involved the eonmunity in her instrtrction. senisr eitizens As an example of this teehnique she ha"s'utilized as tutors and resouree persons in her elass with good sueeess, by eatShe has also involved her students with senior citizens ing lunch with them and sharing holiday aetivitj.es. a highJ-y professional attitude in She her dealings with students, fellow teaehers, and parents, of our PfA and eontinr.r.es to be very has served as an offieer She has served. as a aetj.ve as both a teaeher and parent. representative for her professior.ral assoeiation and faeulty Srs. a &lason has exhibited v coRtinues r As co-workers we recognize in Mrs, Blason the most desirable qual-ities of an educator. Stre remains to all of us an example of a caring, eoncerned professional, as an active member. Sincerely yours, tJ"tz* A- ,/4,A. l- it r t w)L/,,-_Zr1/,2i- �L. ;;. ': .' s flffiH In sl3 e0Hssss lJ I beve hae th€ bomr tbe rrgb SFeet &ptlst ?6dLIF{viLe€B €he'c& for ef rortr:ng Hith Hrs! Fegry fue Hasoa i.g Bore than ten yeare" L I:r our fudsgr $erbool srbe Ls s teseAer of c&tl*r@ Detrnstamtr ln t'hc la*m€&tatc ffrs. gasoa takee 1nd"dei.a prresaat{tl€t her Leesotrs te hear cllase Bhtob shory Eeridsnee / asd gtu'tlyi.ngo of BaSr hsws of plaming 56e segYs6 as pblieity Yaeatlon Sble L Sehoel, a spoasor for the laeplic BlbLe Stady 0laser and. peddent gholrt teaeker for the Settxeaitey gveaisg of, tb€ Seni.or Eegee of, enr chrreh. ltrsr SBsa le deFeada.ble anil & ?erT efftcLsnt U en{ toa,chef fof chatmaa fer our SmAqy $ebeo3.r lrlsefpa.] ttersoa fu tbe ares of Relfui€us Echrcation. ft is aB hsnor to reemend her fen eardl.ilasy for ffi$SLSSISi mffffi Sg8,EIRGIHIA L SETEIg t ; ; OF SGT6tsER, lEE IEAR ATASD IYI}. (giss) A, Lorrraiae Jo$son U-'-(*"*'19'1*) $ryer{nteud*nt, $tndlay'Se$ool srgh $t:l6@t B&ptist 6eccb L finnresarten Teacher, Eoanoke C*tty eblie LJ I Sctuble �L A L.- N, RoanokeCity Public Sphools Division for EducationalPrograms P. O. Box 13145, Virginia 24031 Roanoke, 40 DpuglasAvenue,N.W, (703)981-2876 Septemberl, l L ll Re: Teacher of the Year Recommendation M r s . P e g g yS u e H a s o n , S p e c i a l E d u c a t i o nT e a c h e r Huff Lane School R o a n o k e i t y P u b li c S c h o o l s C D e a r Si r s : L d I a m v e r y p l e a s e d t o h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o r e c o m m e na n o u t s t a n d i n g individual as teacher of the year. r I h a v e k n o w nM r s . M a s o na s a f e l l o w t e a c h e r , a m e m b e o f t h e C o u n c i l f o r E x c e p t i o n a lC h i l d r e n , a n d f o r t h e l a s t t h r e e y e a r s a s a s p e c i a l e d u c a t i o nt e a c h e r u n d e rm y s u p e r v i s i o n . L- t-, Special education teachers, even more than teachers of the nonh a n d i c a p p e d ,m u s t b e v e r y s p e c i a l p e o p l e . T h e r e m u s t b e a n a b u n d a n c e a , o f p a t i e n c e a n d c o m p a s s i o na s w e l l a s t h e k n o w l e d g e n d e x p e r i e n c e s r e q u i r e d f o r e f f e c t i v e c l a s s r o o mp e r f o r m a n c e . l n a l l o f t h e s e a r e a s , a M r s . M a s o nh a s c o n t i n u o u s l y d e m o n s t r a t e d l e v e l o f e x c e l l e n c e o b s e r v able in very few individuals. P e r s o n a l l y , I f e e l t h a t h e r n o m i n a t i o n i s a l o n g o v e r d u eh o n o r , a n d t h a t her selection as teacherof the year would be recognition of her outc s t a n d i n g s e r v i c e t o y o u n gh a n d i c a p p e d h i l d r e n . L, Sincerely, F-*""8,e"4 RobertB. Sieff Supervisor,Special Education L v I R B Se p : l97B �I (W) \l L -/ RoanokeCity Public Schools Departmentof Pupil Personnel Services P. O. Box 13145, Roanoke,Virginia 24031 40 f5ouglasAvenue,N.W. (703)981=2744 .|3 , Septem ber 1978 I T0 Whom MayConcern: it v L L L Mrs. PeggyMason has requestedthat I write a letter of recommendation co n ce rn i n g e r n o mfnation be teacherof the year in Vir ginia for h to 1979. I have known as PeggyMason a teacher for the educablementally retarded for aroundsevento eight years. Her classrosmprovided a c h e e r f u l o u t l o o k a n d w a sm o s t i n t e l l e c t u a l l y s t i m u l a t i n g s o t h a t a g i fte d ch i l d u ro u l d able to find r esour ces be and help for l e a r n i n g i n a w a y t h a t w a sb o t h i n t e r e s t i n g a n d c h a l l e n g i n g . S h e w a s a l so co n ce rn e d bout the welfar e of her studentsand their a f a m i l i e s a s w e l l . S h eh a d g o o dr e ' l a t i o n s h i p s i t h h e r c h i l d r e n ' s w p a re n ts. S h ew a s ve r y wel' l r espected and a par t of her local sch o o . l Mrs. P e g g y so n a s not only pr esident and pr esident elect of Ma w o u r C o u n cr'l r E xceptionalChildr en but she has beenactive in fo th i s o rg a n i za tfo ne venwhennot holding office. Shewas pr esr ' d ent in 1975*76. Mrs. F e g g y so ns a cheer ful and positive per sonall the times i Ma I have known her. She has always had a professional respect for her fel'low teachers . I ammost pleasedto recommend Mrs. Peggy Mason be Teacherof to th e Y e a r fo r 1 9 7 9i n the Comm onwealthVir ginia. of S in c e r e l y , L Eugene Meyer H. P r e s i d e n t ,C h a p t e r 3 4 1 Council for ExceptionalChildr en SchoolPsychologist I EHM/th lJ t �L N Allisnce Black Eouthu)est eighborhood P. O. Box 12954 828 CAMPBELL AvE.. S. W. ROANOKE. VIRGINIA 24025 (703) 942-3513 | --./ OFFICERS OTIS OGDEN PRESIDENT t . Sept. ll, PEGGY MASON VICE PRESIDENT 1978 MARTHA OGDEN RECORDINGSECRETARY To wHoM rr MAy coNCERN: ""..,I::f,1"*Ji1.,n", We highly recommend V cLoRlA BRATToN ,r"^",rir*' recipient of the Virginia Mrs." Peggy Ma.son as a State Teaeher of the Year award . L L, Mrs. Mason is an outstanding per€on in t*re community. She is involved in many civic and community activities. She has been elected by.our Alliance for two consecutive years to the Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance Board of Directors and serves exception* a1ly well on that board. She also serves as vice president o f t h e S o u t h w e s t C o m m u n i t y .N e i g h b o r h o o d (previously, Alliance Black Southwest Neighborhood Alliance),Mrs. people is 1. It L Masonrs concern and involvement especially commenable. with Not onLy has Mrs,- Mason contributed of herself to the community, she has been generous in her contr-ibutions of f unds as we11. When called upon, Mrs..Mason responds immediarely and with enthusiasm to lend the hand that is need despite her involvement in many other wor_thwhile activities. We.find Mrs. Masonrs work in and her impeccable character make her a great example f or our community*invaluab1e, and pleasing personality our y.oung people.- Sincere 1y yours , C-h e!,* t, I young Ot is Ogdenv Pres ident �L ROAI{OKE NEIGHBORHOOD ALLIANCE, INC. P. O. BOX 12354 . 824 CAMPBELL AVE.. L W. . ROANOKE. VIRGINIA 240.25 o PHONE: (7OB) 9a2-g5tg L* L S e p t 13 , 1 9 7B a, T O W H O MI T L 1-' MAY CONCERN: The Board of Directors for the Roanoke Neighborhood AlLiance voted unanimously to pass a resolution in support of Mrs. Peggy Sue Mason as a candidate for the Teacher of the Year Award.. Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance specifically wished to acknowledge the tremendous efforts that Mrs. Mason has exerted in our movement to improve the general lifestyle of the residents of our community. In addition, we recognize the high proffessiona1 qualities that she has exhibited in her job as a teacher" It has been resolved by the board of directors for the Roanoke Neighborhood Alliance that Mrs.- Peggy Sue Mason be given complete support as a candidate for the Teacher of the Year Awar'd. t, Respectfully yours, 'CItJ"lUtilAtusfi^/d, AbduL Mubdee Shakir Assoeiate Director L L L L AMS/c1c �L C o a ce rss, To Whom t I , The n-ominatioa of, reg6y $ue I4ason for L- Year displays privilege For two years I harre h*d the exceller,rt Jud"gemetat. and pleasure sf, working vith P ro fe ssi o n a l L eription F4rs. ivlasonas an aide. e xper tioe pr evj.d"es a simpllf,ied o f h e r te a ch i n g a bilities. subjecte ar e taught with Frsn the plan - and on any $.eeesse.rylevel excitementn clarity des - to the cla,ss €x - $he offer s a n d g B i danee. All e n p l a r y l ea d e rsh i p L Teacher of the she spends s&ay, ning book to the appes.raace o$ the classroon n a n y h o u rs. Ia the cless, L attituile fsr happy child each ehild.. fhe disinterestedl, will fruetrated loving or u& - a reaely emlle anil a cha"nee be eonfronted vith t o g r o v , to b e l o n g , to a tta in L a earing, exhibits Mrs. fflasCIn specisic individual educational s,eeds. a 4 - fi club, Starting introdueinS the students to the Jualor Red" Cross, the Studeat Sovernment, I{uej-e arail eqmmuaity L relations a re j u st a fra e ti on of the r esults ehe hae achievedl. F o r se ve ra l ye a rs F{ r s. M ason has been an effeetive, d e d i c a t e d te a e h e r i n th e fi eld L of $peeiaL Educatior q. the !sr d, bestowed her with many talents and she utillses for her studente, conimtlnity aud ehureh. Any ehlld, L s h e h a s a si n ce re , eoworker, parent or ecquaintanee will g e n u i u e , car ing attitud.e for T o , te a ch i s to i nstr uct all. and alt it concer ns is to 1eartr. Everyone leaving her class goes trith hope, a fee)-ing of aecornpliehment ared a lsok to the future, L fiad or shov other g. To witness her I o v e a n d d e vo ti o u fo r h e r pr ofession L them gem.ereusly �L askeil, I could nane no one ffiore deservias If of thls honor than Peggy $. Ivlsson. L- $rs. F {a so ncu }ti va te e unelerstand.ing. She l"ife and poeoesees the quality L giving of herself are traits eervl'ce. emanatee unselfish she lives a caring wlth listening The wllli.ngraess te help others, of belng ear sJId' &re adnj.red by many. she hae that ffatching her in the c}&ssr@@ngeiag about her ilutles Lete you eone face to faee with ttre purpose for which we ere all L e r e a t e d , to b e o f se rvi ce to other s. Child.r en sense and know she eare$. fhey know she is concerlred. if problems or if L to f,eel that to contribute their they have persoreal problem is aeademlc. Sach student they are sonebody, ffid that is made they have eomething to the world. no rnatter hsr* sma}}. the manr,rerin which she teaches and the care she givest L were not morely obtained by attending eollege and earning a eare cofies from the I{EA'RS. degree. fhe techreiques a,nd. this L w@rld would be a better Seggy Flasen ln all of us. Hy life pl*ee if and that there was a bit of ny fa;tl}y @f has beea touched en& srade rj.eher by sueh e $egnanlnous person. If L Teacher of the Year this na:rned. will be an honor not that Just given to her, beeause she has wel3. earrned. T h e r e f o r e tt i s to th e cre d it of all hon@r. concer ned that ve r ec@n$end Peggy $. F{&son. L $incerelyr. $arah $ilpitl d;l&;r t,MAl 'SSAA Aide '-, r t /ezrz.&(- L /< -X'-u4u {4ean Pence $pecial Education Ai d.e L �r , r I >r E F i F I t r\v 25L7 Maycrest Street Roanoke, Virginia il. J a September 15, L978 ! g F ! I \, a t: 7, To Whom It * F + May Concern: to learn The Lluff Lane School PTA was delighted that M.rs. Peggy Mason has been nominated for the Mrs. Mason Vi_rginia StaE6-Teacher of the Year Award. member of the Huff Lane PTA, has-been an outstanding Gn our serving as Program Chairman and Historian and active Board, and being a faithful Executive PTA member. I ilF * + E r t. F E For several years now, Mrs. Mason has accompanied skating our Huff Lane students to monthly roller p a r t i ed e d ' Ms p.o n s o r e d b y t h e P T A . L q s t M a y o u r P T A s, 'awar ri membership to-the Mason an honorary life congress of PTA's for her dedicated service virginia in PTA work. and interest g F B E E g E ! F a t. - our PTA is proud of Mrs. Mason and all her endeavors. Sincerely yours, F F /'1 iA.,.J"'+L Y -* +--Tfol*; E J u d i t h T . Kuelling President Huff Lane PTA Huff Lane S c h o o l Roanoke, Virginia ; : I i i I I lI I I i \r*1.' :_ | i ' v j : F �;T- L'* L L M K! $ rv Chov nc't L Janres A.. Ford Vtce Choirnan Wiiliarn R. Reid S€ciefor!' H. James Hebert Treasurer L Mrs. Jane Hough September 22, L978 To Whom It l4ay Coneern f am the Program Manager of a residential facility for children and have knor,un Mrs. Mason for the past L\ yeats. She has been the for one of the children teacher in my program since his entrance into the School. |"f-f-Lane l In the tirne that I have been acquainted with Mrs. Mason, she has been most hel-pful to both me and my child. She has instilled in John a desire to learn that has made his school experience most rewarding. Mrs. Mason has made a special effort to see that his class has been mainstreamed into all the activities and functions of the school. Mrs. Masonrs patience to me and I feel privileged and work with her. and eagerness have been an inspiration to have had the opportunity to know her E ecLriue Direcior Sincerely, Jr. Dr. FreciP. Roessel, Stephanie Philips Program Manager 3003 Read Road L SP:mf L L MENTAL HEALTH SERVICESOF THE ROANOKE VALLEY Executive Offices - Suite 512,92O S. Jefferson Street, Roanoke, Virginia 24016 - (703) 345-9841 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2723/PM_31_SCLC_2010.PDF d3b987be0938573c7d4619cb21d0ed56 PDF Text Text The Roanoke Chapter of the ChristianLeadership Southern Conference The Fifteenth Annual Dr.Martin Luther King, Jr. Holiday Banquet "Moving Forward Difficult In Times" "lnjustice isa anywhere threat justice to everywhere." Holiday Valley Inn View Friday, January 2010 15, �-1 /' I\ Jrl.el r elln Os' ^vv lr5\) The RoanokeChapterof the SouthernChristian Leadership Conference welcomesyou to our 15th annualDr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Awards Banquet.Our themethis year is "Moving Forward in Difficult Times.,, As our chaptercontinuesto celebrate movementof the Civil Rights,we acknowledgethat the world has changedsincethe Southern Christian LeadershipConferencewas founded in lg57 by Dr. Martin Luther Krg, Jr. The formation of the SCLC has inspiredmany leadersto believethat nonviolentdirect action andprotestsmight succeed in battlesagainst segregation. thank you for being We ryith us tonight to honor all of the truly deservingaward recipients. When we departfrom one anotherthis evening,pleaseremember that what we do is always about you, you and you, and if we can hetp somebodyas we passthis way, then our living shall not be in vain. Sincerely, %64a/r, Z. %/, ?fbrlz4 President, The RoanokeChapterSCLC � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Peggy Sue Mason Subject The topic of the resource Southwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Peggy Sue Mason Interviewer: Mary Blitz Date: 16 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 41:56 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 16 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peggy Sue Mason; Mary Blitz Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MasonPeggySue https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene_[compressed].mp3 a69bd8e049345f55d9393ccebafd6d82 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene2.jpg 799273a573c5921a35dc4960cb88efd7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene3.jpg 9e3a9e2d71eebbb021cab5d55579d67e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene4.pdf 790cb30f497dcc20b4e1258b81f5f7d3 PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene5.pdf 72839b5ad06bcdbd318b8b823938ea9f PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene7.jpg 8ebfe1c6a518ee0e3372a145fbae544d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene11.pdf 891f0e74dea4f2051a5acda77dc3f072 PDF Text Text Gainsboro Branch Library manager retires Carla M. Lewis, who has been branch manager of the Gainsboro Branch Library for 36 lh years, will officially retire on June 25. She thanks God, her family, directors and a very involved community for their combined support in the many accomplishments during her tenure as branch manager which includes: Oral History Initiative, a $1.3 million · renovation, story hours/· puppet shows and seeing the Gl:linsboro Library registered as a Virginia Historic Landmark and placed LEWIS on the National Register of Historic Places by the United States Department of the Interior. Mrs. Lewis' historic adventure began with the advice of a former librarian ofVrrginia Union University who encouraged her to apply for a position at the Gainsboro Branch Library in 1973. "I was told right away that I had the position," states Mrs. Lewis. "I was driven to meet with Mrs. Louise Bowling, the only staff member at the branch at that time, and to find out the availability ofhousing in the area. "We have a large house and you can come live (See Lewis, Page-5) �Lewis (Continued from Page 1) with us," Mrs. Bowling said. "Well, that was one of the best decisions of my life," Mrs. Lewis continues, "because I was nurtured and loved just like a family member and ate scrumptious meals every day. Mr. Bowling prepared most of the meals during the week and Mrs. Bowling would prepare the Sunday family feast. I lived with the Bowlings for six months (and 10 pounds heavier) before moving to an apartment in the Claytor's old home place, across the street from the library." Directors with whom Carla worked, during her tenure with the Roanoke Public Library System include: Ms. Himes, Ms. Keyser, Mr. Whitelock, Ms. James, Mr. Zarasky and Mrs. Umberger. Numerous accomplishments she was able to complete during her 36 ~ years of service began in 1973, with story hours for pre-school age children that included First Baptist Church, Rugby, Lincoln Terrace and the primary students at Roanoke Catholic Elementary, Programs were planned and implemented for after school youth, especially during the holidays when schools were closed for several days. She honored Mrs. Virginia Y. Lee, who was most instrumental in the construction and success of the library, by naming the collection the "VIrginia Y. Lee African American History Collection" in 1982. The collection consists of autographed pictures, rare and first edition books ' and a taped interview of Mrs. Lee. Many volumes have been added to keep this collection updated for schools, casual readers and those who will continue to do research. The branch also worked closely with a VIrginia Cooperative Extension Agent to assist new mothers with fast and easy ways to prepare Qutritious and healthy snacks for their family. Programs were also initiated through that partnership to inform patrons of nutritious facts and how to read can labels. Through a Bill and Melinda Gates grant, the library was able to get new computers donated where the economic status of the homes were in the mid to low income bracket. Initiated in 2006 was the Roanoke Public Library's Oral History Project that collects and preserVes stories of long-ago by interviewing neighborhood patrons. They shared stories which made it possible for children, researchers and family members (as far backasthe 1920s& 1930s) to listen and compile data for future generations. This project is used ·by most of the libraries in the City of Roanoke today and VIrginia Tech School of Public and International Affairs in the College ofArchitecture and Urban Studies. Also initiated were the Thursday Night Gatherings to discuss current events, music, child care, nutritious snacks, girl talk, guy talk, marriages, buying a house, reading to children, best books, job openings, buying ~ car and many other topics that become our famous "Caf'e Night." This idea was expanded upon by adding light jazz, poetry slams, story telling, name that tune and yes, refreshments. In 2008 a major renovation was made to this library, which was built in 1942. The size ofthe building has almost doubled, adding a spacious meeting room (125 capacity), a teen center, study rooin and lots of other improvements. One outstanding Oddball Outreach project included participation in a Christmas parade. A tractor trailer was borrowed from a local business, WS Connelly & 1 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene12.pdf 954b8be8ecda960fe5863cc074bdd0a4 PDF Text Text FREE DECEMBER/JANUARY 2006 �cover story Lewises Give New .M.eaning to 'Extended Family' By DENISE ALLEN MEMBRENO Carla and Peter Lewis have a simple recipe for success: respect, love and friendship mixed with a lot of hard work. This recipe has created a happy marriage, productive careers and fulfilling lives. They say their recipe can help achieve just about any goal you set, and they pass it along to the thousands of children they call their own. Carla works with children through her job as the librarian at Gainsboro Library in Roanoke. Peter is a retired educator who reaches children through Apple Ridge Farm, an educational and fun retreat for inner city kids. It takes a village ... The African proverb "It takes a whole village to raise a child" has become fashionable to say but it was a reality for Carla and Peter Lewis. Carla grew up in Lisbon, a rural North Carolina town. Washington, D.C., was home for Peter. Despite the differences in their origins, both felt the love of their communities. "The whole community had expectations for you whether your parents were professionals or post office workers, day laborers, whatever," says Peter of his childhood in the Adams Morgan section of D.C. "Everybody had the same dreams for their kids." Carla was one of eight children; all of whom went to college. Change ... understand the challenges of change. So when it's time to sell your home and make that move to a more suitable location, you will need someone with decades of experience ... Someone that sincerely cares about you and will help to make that move as easy as possible. I I'd love to help you with your m ove and make a new friend. For Professional Service with a Personal Touch call.... Jeannine Hanson, GRI, CRS 24 Hour Voice Mail: 540-966-7297 Office: 540-772-9227 Home: 540-77 4-6730 Boone & Company ai'J LONG & W FQ~J.~,~ 2002 Roanoke Valley's Number One Realtor 16 Primeliving December / January 2006 Carla and Peter like to go antiquing for recreation and to find items for their ShOpS Photos by Dmise Allen Membreno Her father was a farmer, and her mother a missionary. At one time, they had three kids in college. When Carla was a student assistant at Virginia Union University's library, Marion Penn men to red her. "Miss Penn would order lunch and tell me if I would go get it that she would treat me, too," remembers Carla. "She must have known that I hadn't eaten since breakfast but that was her way of looking after me." Carla says she was determined to help pay for her tuition and worked all through school to ease the burden on her parents. When she graduated from college and moved to Roanoke, Carla found other mentors. "When I came to Roanoke to visit the Gainsboro Library where I would be working, I was accompanied by Emily Keyser, the assistant director of library services," recalls Carla. "At the library, Ms. Keyser asked if I had found a place to live. Immediately, Mrs. Louise Bowling, the assistant librarian, offered her home to me." The Bowling family is still a part of Carla's extended family. Both of Peter's parents were educators, but an aunt and uncle also had a great impact on his life. For 10 years, he spent summers and many holidays at their Fauquier County dairy farm. This experience would shape his life in ways he never expected, he says. On a Mission Peter started his career as a teacher in D.C., following in his parents footsteps . "I was working with kids some of who were very troubled . I www. prim el ivi n g. net �cove r sto ry Carla Lewis has been librarian at Gainsboro for nearly 33 years started taking them to the country to my aunt's farm, and I saw street thugs just melt when they were on the farm." He says his aunt's southern hospitality and the fresh air transformed these teenage tough guys into wood nymphs. "I thought if that can reduce these kids who wouldn't show respect to a police man, to kids who were just wide eyed, this country experience that I'd been taking for granted all these years is something special, and I need to bottle it." Peter had found the path he needed to walk. He and his first wife started looking for farms in Virginia and, in 1975, they fell in love with Apple Ridge Farm in Floyd County. They moved to Copper Hill, and Peter went to work for Roanoke City Schools. In 1986, he helped found an alternative education program that is now known as the Noel C. Taylor Academy. But Apple Ridge is his passion, and now that he's retired from the school system, it's his fulltime job. The first group of students came to nonprofit academic camp and retreat in 1976. Last summer, 400 youngsters attended an academic camp at Apple Ridge. Throughout the year, some 2,000 students visit its Environmental Education Center, which includes the new James A. Meador Natural Science Building. Apple Ridge also runs a school year reading program in Roanoke. Apple Ridge Farm's mission is to provide enriching educational and outdoor opportunities to less fortunate children. "We're not just a destination; we're a medium, a magic carpet that seeks to show kids a slice of the world through our educa- See why over 6,000,000 women have already attended a performance since the show's opening five years ago! 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Available <1t Jefferson Center's Shaftman Performance Hall Box Office 540.345.2550, Toll Free 866.345.2550, or on line at www.jeffcenter.org SPONSORED BY C\IuLION Health y ·rem PHYSIC~:O ~ C F&/~ .NC -Please see COVER STORY page 24 www.orimeliving.net December/January 2006 Primeliving 11 �cover story COVER STORY- continued from page 17 tiona! programs," Peter says. Carla studied to be a teacher and put those skills to use at the Gainsboro Library where she has worked for nearly 33 years. She is one of only three librarians to work at the historic library in its 63year history. The library is the hub of one of Roanoke's oldest communities. It's a busy spot offering story time for preschool children, homework help to students and adult programs as well. A popular program is the monthly Blues Night when local musicians perform. But Carla's mission is helping the children. Since coming to Roanoke in 1973 she has nurtured thousands of children both from the neighborhood and Roanoke Catholic Schools. "I like to see a child grow. I like to take them where they are and show them they can go anywhere through reading." "You can be what you want to be but there are conditions. And some of the conditions are you have to be disciplined. You have to read. You have to be mannerly. You have to respect people." A Spark Develops Apple Ridge Farm in Floyd County was founded by Peter Lewis as an activities and educational center for innercity children Carla and Peter have known each other for more than 30 years. Both place a high priority on community service. Both put children Learn From Yesterday. Live For Today. Hope For Tomorrow. Every day of life should be filled with compassion, dignity and choice. Good Samaritan Hospice offers the personal care you and your loved one deserve through in-home nursing care, counseling and family support services. At the end of life's amazing JOUrney, Good Sam is dedicated to helping our patients remain in contro l of their lives. It would be our privilege to serve you. GOOD SAMARITAN HOSPICE Roanoke Valley: 776·0198 New River Valley: 381-3171 Smith Mountain Lake: 721-6292 goodsamhospice.org first, their own and the many they "adopt" through their work. They met in the late 1970s while volunteering for an organization that sponsored African American History Month celebrations. Both were married to others at the time. Then in the fall of 1996, a spark developed. Carla had been divorced for 10 years, and Peter had been single for a year. "I came calling on Miss Carla and was very tentative because I'd known her for so long and had a great deal of respect for her so I was shy about approaching her," recalls Peter. "Our first date was up at Peaks of Otter, and our second date was here and I cooked for her and told her to sit in front of the fireplace." They married five months later and have been going strong for nearly nine years. "He listens to me," says Carla. "He's home at night. It's such a love and respect relationship we have for each other and if I want to do something he makes sure I get it done." Sometimes they stay at the house in Roanoke; sometimes they Dr. Kane P. Reczek Chiropractor Grandin Healing Arts Center 1701 Grandin Road, SW Roanoke, VA 24015 540-344-1701 Optimizing Health ... "Naturally" Primeliving December/January 2006 www. p rimel ivi ng. net �cover story stay at the farm, often negotiating who will make the drive to be with the other, Carla says. The give-and-take of their relationship extends to how they share their churches and even their business cards. They attend Bible study at Carla's church, Sweet Union Baptist, and alternate Sunday services at Sweet Union and Peter's church, Loudon Avenue Christian. The couple also shares a love of antiques and can spend seven hours driving from Roanoke to Richmond stopping at yard sales along the way. Jaunts to Bedford, Buchanan and Christiansburg also are popular and travel is always off the interstate on routes such as U.S. 11 and 460. Each operates an antique shop at Apple Ridge Farm, although Peter says his Trading Post Collectibles is more like a museum than a shop because he doesn't care if he sells anything or not. Carla runs Auntie's Attic, an antiques boutique that includes clothing. Until they retire, the shops are open by appointment "or chance," Peter says. They also just enjoy riding in Peter's white 1988 Mustang convertible, which he bought after dreaming about a sports car he had as a youth. "Carla said buy a car if you want it; you deserve it," Peter says. He's also a member ofThe Mustang Car Club. Passing it On Carla, 56, and Peter, 62, have three sons from their previous mar- riages and are grandparents to five grandsons. They try to spend at least one day a week with the grandchildren, playing, reading and passing along family and African American history. It's something they've done for decades for others and in the process have acquired an enormous extended family. "Sometimes we're out to dinner, and a young person or adult will come up, and I'll say 'That's one of my babies,' and Peter will say, 'No, that's one of my babies,' and we'll go back and forth, and the child is just beaming," says Carla. "And the child may be 30 years old," adds Peter. "What we're trying to do in our own small way is to get kids to really take a look at who they are, where they want to go and that there are concrete steps they can take to get there." Peter says the work they do is to honor the friends, family, teachers and mentors that helped them throughout their lives. "People took time with us to have high expectations and to nurture us and they did that for children not their own and so what our deal is, is to think that we can provide that same nurturing experience for children not our own as well as our own." "We also feel we're standing on the shoulders of others so we have to give back," says Carla. "If someone didn't help me when I was in college, if someone didn't help me when I graduated from college and I was away from horne I don't know where I'd be. I have to give back because it was given to me. I have to pass it along." Continued from BOTETOURT TRAVEL page 73 May 14- 2006: "Girls Night Out" weekend in America's Little Switzerland in Jim Thorpe, PA (the gateway to Ti [ the Pocono Mtns.)- includes transportation , 2 nights stay at the Inn at Jim Thorpe, 1 hour body massage, hot towel face massage, special discounts at various shops, some meals & a special comedy show just for the ladies!- from $499 ppdo. June 9-10, 2006: "Are We There Yet?" a light hearted musical/comedy about family at the Wayside Theatreincludes transportation , show ticket & overnight stay at the Hotel Strasburg & full hot breakfast. $149 pp June 16-20, 2006: Niagara Falls, Toronto & Niagara on the Lake Includes roundtrip transportation , 4 nights lodging at the Holiday Inn by the Falls, a short tour of the Niagara, time at Niagara on the Lake & 1 day exploring Toronto.- from $499 ppdo. June 28, 2006: "West Side Story" at the Wohlfahrt Haus Dinner Theatre- includes transportation, lunch & show ticket-$65 pp. July 6-9, 2006: Yankees Baseball at Yankee Stadium Includes roundtrip transportation , 3 nights lodging at the Holiday Inn Harmon Meadows, & choice of how many ball games you wish to attend- from $459 ppdo August 12-13, 2006: "The Smell of the Kill" comedy at the Wayside Theatre-includes transportation , show ticket & overnight stay at the Hotel Strasburg & full hot breakfast. $149 pp. October 4, 2006: "Oklahoma!" at the Wohlfahrt Haus Dinner Theatre- includes transportation , lunch & show ticket-$65 pp. October 12-15, 2006: Niagara Falls, Canada Includes transportation, a short tour of the Niagara area, part of a day at Niagara on the Lake & 3 nights lodging at the beautiful Embassy Suites with rooms overlooking the Falls.- from $499 ppdo. BOTETOURT & r a..¥-:oeurs u Cruises for 2005-2006 March 11-18, 2006: Western Caribbean cruise from Charleston, SC - Grand Cayman , Cozumel & Key Westfrom $769 ppdo inside April15-22, 2006: Spring Break cruise going to the Western Caribbean from Charleston, SC- Grand Cayman, Cozumel & Key West- from $829 ppdo inside May 12-21, 2006: Hawaiian cruise & stay on the Pride of Aloha Includes cruise, 2 nights pre cruise lodging in Honolulu, transfers & all meals on board ship.-from $1859 ppdo inside with airfare from Roanoke, VA June 10 -12, 2006: 2 day cruise to "nowhere" from Norfolk on the Carnival Victory- from $370 ppdo inside- call for availability June 13-21, 2006: Alaskan cruise on the Carnival Spirit with optional post cruise land/rail package- includes cruise, 1 nights lodging Vancouver & all meals on board ship- from $1899 ppdo inside with roundtrip air from Roanoke, VA. June 24-July 6, 2006: Grand Mediterranean cruise on the Carnival Liberty from Rome Visiting Naples Italy, Venice Italy, Dubrovnik Croatia, Messina Sicily Italy, Barcelona Spain, Cannes France & Livorno ltaly.-from $1639 ppdo inside August 27- September 3, 2006: Alaskan cruise on the Norwegian Star Juneau, Skagway, Ketchikan & Victoria- from $1598 ppdo inside with airfare from Roanoke , VA- $274 3rd & 4th person inside rate! October 7-17, 2006: Fall Foliage Cruise on the Holland America ms Maasdam- departing from Montreal Quebec stopping in Quebec City Quebec, Charlottetown Prince Edwar, Sydney Nova Scotia , Halifax Nova Scotia , Bar Harbor Maine, Boston Massachusetts, Oak Bluffs Martha's Vineyard & arriving in Norfolk, VA- from $1679 ppdo inside. October 14-16, 2006: 2 day cruise to "nowhere" from Norfolk, VA on the Carnival Victory- from $699 ppdo inside- call for availability October 17-22, 2006: Bahamas cruise from Charleston, SC on the Carnival Victory- visiting Freeport & Nassau- from $625 ppdo inside- $349 3rd & 4th person inside rate! *Above rates are per person based on double occupancy and include cruise, port charges and government fees/ taxes. • Now accepting VISA, MasterCard, American Express & Discover *For more information call (540)966-4449 or email donnie@botetourttravel.com<mailto:donnie@botetourttravel.com> Visit our website at www.botetourttravel.com Revised 77 7 05 12 / www. prim el iving. net December/January 2006 Primaliving 25 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene8.pdf 22adc5dd8e94cf66a337db3b8735f294 PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene13.pdf ea1069acf64691cdd3392d23401eebcd PDF Text Text September 25, 2009 Reception 7:00P.M. Dinner/Awards Program 8:00P.M. Hotel Roanoke and Conference Center 110 Shenandoah Avenue Roanoke, VA 24013 �Biography of Carla M. Lewis Work History of Carla M. Lewis, Gainsboro Library Branch Manager: I visited Roanoke on advice from Verdelle Bradley, former librarian of Virginia Union University, to interview for a position at the Gainsboro Branch Library in 1973. I was told right away that I had the position. Ms. Emily Keyser drove me to meet with Mrs. Louise Bowling, the only staff member at the branch at that time, and to find out the availabiFty of housing in the area. Mrs. Bowling said, "We have a large house and you can come live with us." Well that was one of the best decisions of my life because was nurtured and loved just like a family member and ate scrumptious meal everyday. Mr. Bowling prepared most of the meals during the week and Mrs. Bowling would prepare the Sunday family feast. I lived with the Bowling's for 6 months "10 pounds heavier" before moving to an apartment in the Claytor's old home place. During her 36~ years of working for the Roanoke Public Library System, Carla worked with the following directors: Ms. Himes, Ms. Keyser, Mr. Whitelock, Ms. James, Mr. Zarasky and Mrs. Umberger and her community. Carla M. Lewis was instrumental in getting the following accomplishments organized and completed during her 36~ years of service. In 1973 she started story hours for preschool aged children, including First Baptist Church, Rugby, Lincoln Terrace and the primary students at Roanoke Catholic Elementary. Planned and implemented programs for after school youth, especially during the holidays, when schools were closed for several days. Had a fascination for puppetry and parlayed that interested into getting more children ready for a lifelong interest in reading. The puppets were made and purchased most by Carla. Puppet shows for all aged children were preformed, including a version "of the Three Little Pigs," for Virginia's 1st Lady, Linda Robb on one of her visits to Roanoke. Honored Mrs. Virginia Y. Lee, who was so instrumental in the construction and success of the library, by naming the collection the "Virginia Y. Lee African American History Collection" in 1982. this collection consists of autographed pictures, rare and first edition books and a taped interview of Mrs. Lee. Many volumes have been added to keep this collection updated for schools, casual readers and those who will continue to do research. �Worked closely with a Virginia Cooperative Extension Agent to assist new mothers with fast and easy ways to prepare nutritious and healthy snacks for their family. We also had programs to inform patrons of nutritious facts and how to read labels. Worked on a Bill and Melinda Gates grant to get new computers donated to the library where the economic status of the homes were in the mid to low income bracket. In 2006, initiated the Roanoke Public Library's Oral History Project that collects and preserves stories of long-ago by interviewing neighborhood patrons. They shared these stories with us, making it possible for children, researchers and family members (as far back as the 1920s and 1930s) to listen and compile data for the future generations. This project is used by most of the libraries in the City of Roanoke today and Virginia Tech School of Public and International Affairs in the College of Architecture and Urban Studies. Proud to work with community leaders who were instrumental in getting this library listed on the Virginia Landmarks Register and the National Register of Historic Places in 1996. Attended a Virginia Library Association (VLA) Conference in Hot Springs, Virginia in 2007 to share my inspiration behind the Oral History project and the logistics of how to make it happen. The Thursday Night Gathering to discuss current events, music, child care, nutritious snacks, girl talk, guy talk, marriages, buying a house, reading to children, best books, job openings, buying a car and many other topics became our famous "Cafe' Night". We expanded on this by adding light jazz, poetry slams, story telling, name that tune and yes refreshments. Was nominated by Beta Chi Omega Chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. to receive the Unsung Hero Award for outstanding service to the community. A puppet show was preformed at the 2007 opening of the Library Kiosk at Valley View Mall. Nominated to participate in "Women of a New Tribe", a photographic exhibit at the Harrison Museum of African American Culture. This program named 29 African American women who have made significant community contributions in the greater Roanoke community. A tribute honoring Clara Lewis for outstanding service at the Gainsboro Library and unveiling her portrait was held on March 12, 2009. the friends of the Library and the Library Foundation sponsored this program. Four things I am most proud of and stand out in my memory are community service outreach, including the historic designation of the library, story hours/puppet shows, dedication of the Virginia Y. Lee Collection and the oral history initiative. Oddball Outreach: Gainsboro Library staff volunteered to participate in a Christmas parade, borrowing a tractor trailer from a local business, W. S. Connelly & Son on Madison Avenue. Our mascot was a tiger made by using a saw horse as the base. The float was made by neighborhood children and faithful parents. The children was so excited that they wanted to have a contest to name the tiger. After many days of voting, the name was selected, Tempermoneous K. Purcat. Our children were proud of one of .the loveliest floats in the parade. Past and present m.ember of the following organizations: Sweet Union Baptist Church- (Teaches Sunday School and assists with holiday dramas). Big Brothers/Big Sisters- (As a Board Member she matched big brothers and big sisters with little brothers and little sisters, participated in outings and fundraising). Initiated and compiled local and national African American questions. These questions were used throughout the library system and shared with local colleges and universities for our African American History Month Contest. Jefferson Cup- (This committee honors a distinguished biography, historical fiction or American history book for young people. Their goal is to promote reading about America's past: to encourage the quality writing of United States history, biography and historical fiction for young people and to recognize authors in these disciplines). Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) awarded the Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. service award to the Gainsboro Branch Library for promoting the dream of Peace, Unity and Justice. Apple Ridge Farm Board- (This organization provides academic and outdoor activities for low-income children from inner city Roanoke). In 2008 oversaw a major renovation to this library which was built in 1942. the size of the building has almost doubled, adding a spacious meeting room, (capacity of 125) teen center, study room and lots of improvements. Blue Ridge Public Television Community Advisory Board- (This board discusses the upcoming programs for the season and publicity measures). Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority - (This sorority is the oldest with a mission to be "service to all mankind"). �Harrison Museum of African American Culture Steering Committee - (Volunteers to work each year with their fundraiser, Henry Street Festival). Carla's Heroes: My family, especially my mom is my hero. She was a local missionary who went from church to church speaking God's goodness and love. People would travel from miles away to hear her message. Her favorite saying was "If I can help someone along the way, then my living would not be in vain". My father worked as farmer to support his family of eight children. It was instilled in us to give back to our community and get together as a family as often as possible to share stories and enjoy each other. Personal: Married to Peter A. Lewis and between them they have three sons, Cedric Pullen, PeterS. and John R. Lewis, six grandchildren, Derric, Andre' , Markus, Miles, Langston and Leah. I would like to express THANKS to my family and my community because without them, I could not have completed the number of projects that we shared. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene14.pdf 04915fe28f6aa297eff996b5fdf26487 PDF Text Text Total Action Against Poverty's African-American History Celebration " " From Slavery to the White House 2010 Honorees Golden Chorale Singers Mrs. Estelle McCadden Mrs. Cleo Sims Mrs. Carla Lewis Mr. VVilliam Penn Vice-Mayor Sherman Lea Dr. Theodore (Ted) Edlich Ill Dumas Center for Artistic Development Tuesday, February 23, 20 I 0 I O:OOAM �Mrs. Cleo Sims is a native of Roanoke, married to Joseph Sims, mother of two daughters (Nicole Sims Terry (Kenny) andJeanene Sims) and elated grandmother of Alexis Nicole and Erin Renee Terry. She is a life long member of St. Gerard's Catholic Church where she serves on the Finance Committee, Liturgy Committee, Gospel Choir and Coordinator for Ministries of Communion. Mrs. Sims joined TAP in May 1966 as a bookkeeper and was promoted to many other positions before becoming Head Start Director in June 1981. During her tenure as Director, the Head Start program consistently received high marks in federal reviews and for supporting and inspiring parents to reach their goals and establish a brighter future for their children; and she ensured that the program continued to grow to serve more children, expanding to un-served areas of Franklin County, Fairfield, VA and the Alleghany Highlands. She also initiated and managed several key programs that received national accreditation. Mrs. Sims was noted for her strong commitment to Head Start children and their parents. As Director, she maintained an "open door" policy and had exceptional listening and conflict resolution skills with parents, staff and community partners. Mrs. Sims is the recipient of numerous awards and commendations which include the only Head Start Director for Virginia to represent the Commonwealth at the 25th Anniversary Celebration of Head Start at the White House Rose Garden; 1996 Key to the City for Outstanding Leadership to the Community and Church; 2003 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Drum Major for Justice Award; and the first ever Mary Steinhardt Champion of Children Advocacy Award. Mrs. Carla Lewis is a native of Bladen County, N.C. She graduated from Virginia Union University in Richmond with an education degree and has additional studies at Hollins University. Mrs. Lewis is married to Peter Lewis, founder and CEO of Apple Ridge Farms. As branch manager of the Historic Gainsboro Library for 36 Vz years, Mrs. Lewis oversaw a tripling of the collection and a near-doubling of the libraries space. She documented the oral histories of aging black leaders, made the library a magnet for people from all quadrants of the city and mentored untold numbers of young people including Salena Sullivan, a student at Harvard University. Mrs. Lewis launched a monthly salon on topics as diverse as buying your first home, nutrition, great books and love. Mrs. Lewis' leadership at the Gainsboro library was inspired by its first librarian, Virginia Lee. In 1971, at the retirement of Mrs. Lee, Mrs. Lewis inherited a collection of 3,500 books for the library's black history collection. She maintained black literature and history by Langston Hughes and Paul Laurence Dunbar, who sent signed, firstedition copies of their books. Mrs. Lewis understood even more clearly the importance of the collection because she knew that the white-run city council of the 1940's had advised Ms. Lee to get rid of the collection which was hidden in Ms. Lee's basement to dispatch items upon request. Mrs. Lewis has added to the collection and is known for her service to mankind. She has hand delivered books to the elderly and encouraged young people to stay in school. Mrs. Lewis has received numerous awards and commendations; however, the greatest of these was the successful $1.3 million expansion of the Gainsboro Library and the contributions she made to enhance the lives of others while preserving Black History. (Excerpts taken from June 22, 2009 Roanoke Times article.) � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/LewisCaralene15.pdf fe81c1a7fd4efe2e821d9094725e816e PDF Text Text Gainsboro librarian leaves a lasting legacy Photos by JARED SOARES I The Roanoke T1mes Gainsboro librarian Carla lewis (right) helps Samantha Barnett, a library substitute, find a DVD. In the 36 years lewis has held · her post, she has overseen a tripling of the library's collection and a near-doubling of its space. Carla Lewis will retire this week from her post at the Gainsboro library, which under her watch has become a magnet for people from all quadrants of the city. By Beth Macy beth.macy@roanoke.com 981-3435 . fter decades of nurturing the vision of Gainsboro's first librarian, Carla Lewis is leaving her post with her career goal accomplished: The legacy of library matriarch Virginia Y. Lee is fully intact. But quietly and humbly and with an elegance that has come to define the Gainsboro branch of the Roanoke Public Libraries - a shining star of the system and black Roanoke's intellectual hub - Lewis, 60, has arguably made an even deeper imprint than her predecessor. She's overseen a tripling of the collection and a near-doubling of the space. A She's documented the oral histories of aging black leaders, made the library a magnet for people from all quadrants of the city and mentored untold numbers of young people - including Salena Sullivan, whose admission to Harvard University last year she personally helped steer. She's launched a monthly salon on topics as diverse as buying your first house, nutrition, great books and love. When she retires on Thursday, tears will be shed. Regular patrons will line up to offer testimonials. Teenage boys will take one more look at the lady who can shush them with a mere turn of her gorgeous head of hair- and fall in love all over again. See LEGACY, 14 11 Cafe Night to Wish a Fond Farewell to Carla Lewis on her Retirement" When: 6 to 8 p.m. Thursday Where: Gainsboro Branch library, 15 Patton Ave. N.W. For more information: Call 853-1057 �14 j THE ROANOKE TIMES LEGAcv: FROM PAGEl Monday, June 22, 2009 Library patrons will bid Lewis farewell ' n Thursday o money, give some advice, give some love. A lot of kids out there, they just need you to tell them they can do anything they want. "It's no big deal. You just do it." FROM! The library's mom is turning in the keys to her beloved Gainsboro building. But her spiJ;it will long linger amid its stacks. tJI Mrs. Lee's legacy She's going home to the country, though it's not the rural North Carolina farmland of her youth. Lewis plans to retreat to the 90-acre Floyd County farm she shares with her husband, Peter Lewis, the founder, groundskeeper and director of Apple Ridge Farm, the nonprofit camp for at-risk kids. There she'll read stories to little kids and perform puppet shows and assist her overworked husband in whatever way she can. In a way, it's a return to the duties she had when she moved to Roanoke fresh out of Virginia Union University in 1973. She had wanted to be a schoolteacher, earning a degree in elementary education, but the former school library aide could not shake the Dewey Decimal's lure. She was hired as a librarian at the city's Gainsboro branch and, within months, she was running the place. She sought out Virginia Lee, the woman who birthed the library, directing it for 43 years. In getting to know Lee, she learned the history of her new home: In 1940, the Gainsboro Library was . housed in the flood-prone basement of the old Hunton YMCA, the only place where Roanoke blacks could check out books. City officials wouldn't pay for both the land and a new library building, so Lee mustered the nerve to walk up the hill to St. Andrew's Catholic Church, where she asked the priest to donate the land. Not only did the priest comply; in an official request to Rome, he also persuaded Pope Pius XII to give his permission as well. Whereas Lewis exudes warmth, Lee's presence was formidable. Children were made to wash their hands before they handled a book, and plea- f Legacy in action I JARED SOARES I The Roanoke Times Carla Lewis has reached out to young people during her 36 years at the Gainsboro library. After she retires, she will continue to mentor youngsters at Apple Ridge Farm, a nonprofit camp founded by her husband for at-risk children. "I believe we were put here to give back." Carla Lewis sure reading wasn't allowed - until Lee checked to make sure their homework was finished. She started a small black literature and history collection by writing to the likes of Langston Hughes and Paul Laurence Dunbar, who sent signed, first-edition copies of their books. When the white-run city council of the 1940s advised her to get riel. of the collection, Lee hid it in the basement, quietly dispatching items upon request. I Gainsboro librarian By the time she retired in 1971, she'd collected 3,500 books for the library's black history collection that now bears her name. When she met Lewis two years later, Lee told her, "I'm giving it to you." . It may have technically belonged to the community, but in many ways it was Lee's to give. Lewis looked upon the collection not just as a responsibility but also as a calling. "Carla has nurtured and savored Mrs. Lee's legacy, but very quietly and humbly she has also established her own," her husband says. Lewis did things such as handdeliver books to patrons who were elderly and infirm. She worked with young parents and teen moms, encouraging them to stay in school. And when one of her favorite charges left for college, she didn't think twice about sticking a $10 bill in the mail. "I believe we were put here to give back," she says. "And if you can't give On a recent day at the library, Lewis' legacy was in full stride: There was 92-year-old Alphonzo Holland, reading the newspaper at his favorite table, as he does every day, the tiger lilies he clipped as a gift for Lewis nearby. There was 53-year-old Denise Wimbush filling out an online job application. When Goody's closed earlier this year and she lost her job, she came to the library first for help. ("I didn't even know how to turn a computer on.") There was the toddler working his puzzle while a group of teens nearby surfed the Web in the new teen center, part of the branch's recent $1.3 million expansion. · "It's really what I love the most," Lewis says. "You've got teenagers, toddlers and Mr. Holland - all in the same place, all respecting each other." That's why people will drive out of their way - past another library, even - to frequent the Gainsboro stacks. It's why grandmothers will drop off their visiting grandchildren with instructions for Lewis: "She's here for the summer, and I want her to volunteer a couple hours." It's why Sullivan, the 19-year-ola Harvard wunderkind, worked the front desk every day during the first month of her summer vacation - even though city funds were tight, and she wasn't getting paid. (Update: A downtown administrator called last week; somebody somewhere found her some part-time funds.) It's what makes the Gainsboro library arguably the most diverse, the most alive public place in town- and why the librarian with the relentless smile will be missed more than anyone in this corner of Roanoke can say. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2722/Lewis_Caralene_Mathis_Oral_Histories.pdf 21f434b4a7716f2142b4a6cfb67e7e48 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Caralene Mathis Lewis Interviewer: Nick Potts Transcriber: Dorian Meekins [brief unintelligible discussion] NP: Did you start yet? Oh man. Well, my name is Nick Potts and I’m a student at Virginia Tech and today is the 15th and we are here to interview Ms. Carla Lewis, Mrs. Carla Lewis and let us start with– Could you tell us a little bit about where and when you were born? CL: Okay. I was born in Bladen County, North Carolina on February 2nd, 1949 and I was born one of eight children to Henry and Otina Mathis. NP: How long did you– When did you move to Roanoke, I guess? I mean, the first question– CL: I moved to Roanoke in 1973 after graduating from Virginia Union University. This was my first job after college. NP: What streets or neighborhoods did you live in here in Roanoke? CL: When I first came here, I lived in Northwest section on Staunton Ave and the lady that I lived with was the assistant librarian to the Gainsboro Branch, the one that I was manager of for 36 years. And then I moved to Jefferson Street, right across the street from the library which was Dr. Claytor’s house. They had converted it to apartments and I had an apartment there. And then later I moved to Roland Hill and still live [in] Northwest Roanoke. NP: So did you grow up here in Roanoke with your family and all? Did you have family that lived here in the area or anything? CL: I didn’t have any family here in Roanoke. I grew up in North Carolina and Washington DC and later moved here because the Virginia Union University’s librarian recommended that I come her to get the experience. NP: So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your first job and what type of stuff you did there? CL: Well I worked at the library at Virginia Union University while I was attending Virginia Union and when I graduated, I came here to Roanoke to work at the Gainsboro Branch as the manager and I worked there for 36 and a half years, retiring in June of 2009. NP: Long time. So why don’t you tell us about your education before college and all that? Do you have any stories about that or anything you’d like to share? CL: I graduated from Booker T. Washington High School in North Carolina and then I went from there to Washington DC to Federal City College. It’s now the University of the District of Columbia and I transferred from there to Virginia Union in 1969 and graduated from there. NP: How many other people in your family attended college or were you the first one or how did college education work in your family? CL: No, I was not the first one. I have eight siblings so all of us went to college. It was expected of us. My father and mother did not have the opportunity to go to college so when we came along, I mean, that was expected of us. I mean, we had to make good grades, we had to go to school, we had to go to college and at one time there were three of us at the same college. So it �was pretty hard on my parents to keep us all in school, but we did it. Everyone went to school, went to college. NP: So it sounds like it’s a lot like it is today. I mean, your parents pushing it on you. CL: Yes. NP: What was your home life like? I mean you had a huge family, what was that like? Eight brothers and sisters, I can’t imagine that. CL: Well we had a large house and in the summertime we had to do chores. We had a garden and my father had a farm, but we had to do chores. We didn’t just play. We had to pick cucumbers, tomatoes and shell beans and can food and do all kinds of good things. So everybody participated in my family and all of the children from Washington DC, my mother’s sister’s children would come down so we had a huge family. [We] had 23 people sometimes in the house and we had a great time. I mean we had to work, but we had a great time also. We had a lot of games and church and all kinds of things that we participated in. NP: Where there any family stories or anything of importance that, y’know, you’d like to speak about? Family history or anything like that? CL: My mother would tell us stories and my father would tell stories about how they used to ride a horse and buggy places when they were coming up. That kind of stories and we had recipes that we passed down from generations that we still use; macaroni and cheese and fried chicken and stuff like that. As far as the other stories, my father was one of the oldest in his family and he had to drop out of school to provide for his younger siblings. So education became one of his key points of telling us that we had to do; we had to go to school, we had to make sure. He was gonna make sure that we didn’t have to drop out to help the other children in the family, but he was going to make sure that he provided for us so that we could. So it was a key point in our family, to go to school, to go to college. NP: So did you meet your husband when you came here to Roanoke? Or how did you start your own family? I guess the question is. CL: I married when I was in college and had one son, Cedric, and then I came here and married Peter Lewis who is the founder of Apple Ridge Farm. It’s a camp and conference center in Copper Hill, Virginia. So we’ve been married quite a few years and we’re still married. NP: Did any of your– Did your spouse, siblings, or children ever serve in the military? CL: Okay my son Cedric served in the Navy for two years and was discharged honorably. My brother was in the Army. So we did have a military background. NP: Were there any businesses or shops here in Roanoke that you and your family would frequently visit? Anything that stands out? CL: Well when I came in 1973, we could pretty much go to any business or shop that was here, but my– I remember going to Henry Street because they had restaurants and newspapers and stuff right there. So I remember walking because I didn’t have a car when I first came and we had neighborhood grocery stores so we walked a lot. NP: What was the fondest memories of your childhood growing up? �CL: I think sharing with my sisters, six sisters. I had five sisters, six of us, and two brothers. And the fondest memory I think came when my baby brother was born. There was so many girls, when we saw a boy we were just happy to see a boy in the family because the oldest was a boy and the baby is a boy and the girls are in between. So we kinda fused over my brother. I mean, he was like a jewel to us. We had a boy! NP: Did you have any holiday stories or did your family go on any vacation to any spot in particular frequently or–? CL: We would go to Washington DC quite often because my mother had sisters there and we would ride the train. In the early years we would ride the train everywhere. I mean, if we were to go to Ohio or New York or any place, we would ride the train. In later years we started traveling by car, but [the] train was just important. I mean, it was the transportation of the way and we enjoyed it and we could take the whole family pretty reasonably. NP: Could you tell us a little bit about your career once you got here in Roanoke? CL: Once I got here in Roanoke I had one job and that was the branch manager of the Gainsboro Branch. They didn’t have storyhours then and so we had a lot of community daycares and schools right around so I started having storyhours and bringing the kids into the library to share the experience of books and reading and puppet shows and all that good stuff. So that was one thing that I remember doing. Another thing is this oral history project, this is one of my latest projects. I had a student to come to me and ask for a biographical sketch of a person right here in our community that I didn’t have information for. So I got the information for the child, but it game me the idea of why not have people come in and tell their stories so we could have information that not only could we give to the students to do reports, but we could share to the community as well and with others and Virginia Tech. You’re here so we could share with you as well. NP: So you worked there for a long time so you must have seen a lot of development within the public library system, yeah? CL: Oh I did. We had a lot of growth. When I first came there, there was one lady working; Louise Bolden was the assistant librarian and I was the branch manager. Two of us worked for many many years with just two people in the branch, which was quite a bit of work for two people, but we got it done. In later years we were able to hire other people and more people to come in and help and volunteers and that kind of thing. So with the growth came more people. NP: Could you describe some culture events that’s happened here in Roanoke in the time you’ve been here? Like entertainers who have come to perform or fairs, sports games, going to movies. Anything cultural like that. CL: Okay, oh boy, there have been quite a few. The Harrison Museum has a festival every year and we participate in that. I’ve seen entertainers come, speakers, authors, children’s authors, adult authors. The Jefferson Center has hosted a lot of different programs that we’ve attended. It’s just been such a tremendous amount of people coming and going. Not only entertainers, but like I said authors and puppet shows, programs for– nutritious programs. We hosted a lot of nutritious programs to teach people how to read the labels on the can, from canning, if you �wanted to freeze food, the proper way of washing and handling that. If you had any kind of ailment or disease, we shared information about that. We shared information about financial growth. Oh boy, it’s been so many many programs. NP: Who was some of the strong community leaders here in Roanoke in your time here? CL: Oh boy, strong community leaders, we’ve had a few. I have seen Mrs. Bethel. I’ll say Evelyn Bethel has been a strong community leader. She was instrumental in getting the Historic Gainsboro designation for the library and that was a great deal for us because she worked really hard on that project. So that was that. The renovation project was another project that I’m kind of proud of because we were able to get that done under my leadership. And we have a teen center. We have a community meeting room that the capacity is 125. We have the African American Virginia Y. Lee Room which houses African American materials, community materials, and worldwide. And the teen center I’m proud of too because we had so many teenagers, it was kinda– One day a person came in and said “Y’know what, I walked into this library and I see a toddler doing a puzzle, a senior citizen reading his newspaper, and a teen at the computer; and they were all there together.” And they said “Y’know we don’t see this quite often.” I mean, y’know, from the toddler to the senior citizen and they were all in unison getting along. I mean he was reading his paper, the teenager was on the computer, and the toddler playing with the puzzle and it was a sight and they said “Oh my gracious! Look at this, y’know, you have all age groups here.” NP: How has the community here in Roanoke and Roanoke itself– How has it been– How has it changed over the years and what challenges has it faced? CL: Oh boy. I would say the community has changed to welcome all races of people. I have seen a diverse group of people since I’ve been here. When I first started out, it was basically African Americans. Now you walk into the library, you see four or five different races. Such a diverse library system. I mean it’s all over now. So it’s– When we started out, I think the first Gainsboro Library was 1928, the Gainsboro Branch was for African Americans and the Main Library was for everybody else. So it started out segregated and now it’s– NP: What jobs were available for men or women in Roanoke in the time you’ve been here and in employment? CL: When I first came, a lot of people worked at Hotel Roanoke, the railroad, the school system. A lot of people worked [at] churches, daycare centers. Unknown: [unintelligible] Oh I was just asking to ask a question after that. CL: Okay. Daycare centers– I mean there were [a] wide variety of jobs here and people seemed to be making it very well. I mean they educated their children. We had one man to tell me that he had never lived in a rented house, but he didn’t have a car. When I first came here, he said “My father said he would not rent a house.” He would have to buy a house and they walked and biked and did a lot of that kind of stuff to get around. He said they rode the buses and stuff like that, but he would not live in a rented house. I lot of people owned their homes and they sent their kids to college on the salaries and the jobs that they had and a lot of the jobs that I just mentioned provided enough income for them to do that. �Unknown: Oh, well my question was, building off of that, how did race affect what jobs you were able to get and how your life was when you’ve been here in Roanoke? CL: I think race played an important part in certain jobs. Like I said, the railroad had a lot of different jobs and I’m not sure. [By] not growing up here, I’m not sure how it affected a lot of the people, but a lot of the people were able to make a great living working and a lot of teachers– I mean, then they had the Harrison School, Addison was a high school so you had teachers, principals, and the works. The Hotel Roanoke had such a variety of jobs that blacks, African Americans, could work there. So I think, right around in our community, those were some of the major jobs that they had in the community. Didn’t have to go out of the community to raise their family, that kind of thing. NP: When you first got here in Roanoke, what was the situation between the races like? Was there a large divide or was it better than other experiences you had? CL: When I first got here, it was divided quite a bit. The library was very open, I mean it was very open, but Henry Street was up and running and so they had coffee shops, well I’ll say sandwich shops, they had a newspaper, they had restaurants, they had a barber shop, they had– it was either a pharmacy slash grocery store right there. So it was a lot of different neighborhood kind of businesses. So you didn’t have to go that far to get anything you wanted. I mean it was in walking distance and the community thrived on those particular– I mean you would go out Downtown, you could go Downtown and go to Sidneys and– I’m trying to think of all the other shops they had down there. Woolworths was there and that kind of shops, stores were there. But I can’t remember– I lived with a lady that lived in Northwest and we didn’t branch out that much. I mean we could go to the grocery stores and I’m trying to think– Was it Food Lion or Kroger or I’m not sure exactly which ones were there then, but we could go to grocery stores and that kind of stuff, but that was– I guess that was about it. It wasn’t that segregated. NP: So, from what you’ve seen, how had the urban renewal here in Roanoke affected the community? CL: Okay, I think when that’s, for instance, the Civics Center– I was told that a lot of the people had to move out of the community to make space for the Civics Center and when they moved, that the amount of money that they got was not enough to buy a house elsewhere wherein their homes were paid for when they were living in Northeast there. So I’ve seen it grow, I’ve seen the city grow. I think for the better, I mean sometimes I think it was for the better because people were able to get jobs elsewhere in grocery stores and teaching in public schools, the hospitals. So I can see the good and the bad on both sides there. NP: Another question is; how has the tension between races– how has the tensions kind of lessened over the years? Or was never that bad to begin with? CL: I didn’t see it as being that bad in the beginning. Like I said, when I came here, it was in 1973. Integration was already in progress and the schools– I heard a lot of stories, but the schools were integrated. Some of the students that came to the library went to Jefferson, Patric Henry; so it was already there. I don’t know quite [how] to explain how the tension was there. They didn’t seem to have a lot of the tension that some of the other cities had because I think, when �integration started, I think Roanoke kind of jumped in and said we’re gonna go ahead and start integrating, we’re not gonna wait for all the sit-ins and all that kind of stuff. I know Rev. Wilkinson and Margie Jumper were some of the people who rode– I mean Margie Jumper said was not gonna ride in the back of a bus and she didn’t ride in the back of a bus. She made sure that we was gonna sit where she wanted to sit and she told that story to me a while back. So I didn’t see a lot of it. I think I was right in the middle of the transition, y’know, going back and forth and– Because we had teachers and they integrated, the hospitals integrated, the schools integrated gradually. So I didn’t see a lot of the tension that some of the other people saw. NP: I guess another question would be– Is, from what you’ve seen working at the library and stuff– I guess it would be a little bit before you got here, but were there any prominent civil rights leaders here in the community in Roanoke? CL: I would say there were. I would say– I just mentioned Mrs. Margie Jumper and Rev. Wilkinson, Rev. Carl Tinsley, Rev. Burton, Noel C. Taylor; were some of the prominent people. So, like I said, I don’t think they encountered some of the racial hatred that some of the other cities had encountered. NP: So Roanoke itself was maybe a little bit smoother of a transition than other cities maybe further south or? CL: Yeah I think so. I think they saw what was happening and decided that they didn’t want that kind of tension here. And not that they didn’t have any, they did have some, but with the leaders that we had, I think it was clearly stated that we were going to integrate. NP: Well, we’re running out of questions, but is there anything else that I haven’t covered that you would like to speak on? CL: I would just like to say that I came up in a time where– When I got here, my director Ms. Nancy Hines met me and brought me around and I was introduced to the library system. [I] worked at the Gainsboro Branch which, when it first started out, had an African American– one, two, three librarians and the lady that worked before me worked 43 and a half years. So she had been there for quite a while. Then there was another lady that came in for a few months and then I came in and– So we worked with all races of people, but, y’know, we didn’t have– I didn’t have a lot with [them] and I was glad of that. And I mean, I’ve seen transitions and people coming and going, but I was just fortunate I guess and I think a lot of it is the way you look at it; as we’re all human beings and I feel that I’m just as important as the next person and I’m going to treat you with respect and I’m looking for respect in return. So I think it was that kind of way with me from the beginning. I had a very wholesome upbringing and we traveled a lot and we never encountered a lot of racial tension that some of the other people did and my father just didn’t tolerate his children having less than anybody else. And so I think I think as much of myself as I do anybody else. I was kind of raised to be that way. So, that was it. Any other questions? Unknown: I don’t have any, no. CL: Do you have any questions? No? Okay. I love my job. I worked for 36 and a half years and the time just went woosh! I couldn’t believe I had worked that long, y’know, but I had a great time. We had a lot of programs that I was glad we had and the community– The thing that I �would like to talk about [at] the very end is the community. I had a great, supportive community and the things that I wanted to do– I mean, all I had to do was pass it by a few people and they went “Oh that’s a great idea,” or “No I don’t think that will work,” or “Have you tried this?” or “Can we try this program?” or “Can we try this?” And we ended up having a Cafe Night where we had poetry, older people, seniors, young people would come together and we did all kinds of things. We had poetry slams, we had people telling about the stories when they came; integrated stories, segregated stories, how they felt at certain activities and some of the things they had encountered. We would sing, we would have– we would eat food, we would discuss movies, current events, all kinds of things. So it became more of a community center than just a library. It became the hub of the community and every age group was important and they knew they were important and they had a piece of that library. So that part I did feel good about because we welcomed everybody and they felt like they had a part of that library regardless of their race. We had a very diverse group of people come in to share with us and it was a great experience, that was. And I tell young people to continue to be encouraged, not only by living in Roanoke, but surroundings and be the kind of person that you would want to be and don’t let anybody tell you couldn’t be this or you can’t be that because of your race or anything like that and I mean that goes for all people. So I’m pretty proud of that. NP: So you’d say Roanoke has been a pretty close-knit, supportive community? CL: For me, it’s been that way since the beginning. NP: Alright well, I’d like to thank you. CL: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Caralene Mathis Lewis Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Caralene Mathis Lewis Interviewer: Nick Potts Date: 15 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 29:19 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Caralene Lewis; Nick Potts Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LewisCaralene https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2721/BroadyDelois_[compressed].mp3 df16cbccd237ba0332dec1f43ba41d82 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2721/broadydelois.pdf f6b65d5739ccd730591863062d63cec2 PDF Text Text Interviewer: Robert Dulin Interviewee: Delois Broady Date: March 15, 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School TranscribeRD: Chelsea Seddon RD: All right, this is Robbie Dulin. It is March 15, 2010 and I am interviewing Ms. Delois Broady at Lucy Addison Middle School. All right, Ms. Broady, thank you for being with us. My first question is, where and when were you born? DB: I was born in Roanoke, July 20, 1931. RD: And approximately how long have you lived in Roanoke? DB: All my life. RD: Wow. You've probably seen a lot of history here. DB: (Laughs) Yes. RD: What streets and neighborhoods did you live in? DB: I lived in the area, it was called the Gainsboro area. I lived on McDowell Avenue, Northwest. RD: Was that near Henry Street at all? DB: Henry Street was about...Gainsboro area is near Henry Street. I guess about four or five blocks, and we would run into Henry Street. RD: All right. Tell me about your parents and brothers and sisters. Did they have extended family members living nearby? DB: I lived with my mother and father, and I had one sister, and I had a brother who lived in West Virginia until his senior year in high school and then he came to Roanoke and went to Lucy Addison High School. RD: Oh okay. Did you go to Lucy Addison High School? DB: I did. I certainly did. RD: Can you please describe your house for us, for instance, was it brick, or did you have a garden? DB: My house was four rooms, just a frame, a little frame house, not a lot of fancy furniture or anything like that. We didn't even have sidewalks, the cement sidewalks? RD: Mmhmm. �DB: But there was love in the house and my mother loved flowers. We had lots...her favorite flowers were pansies and nasturtiums and she planted those flowers every spring, and we just looked forward to those pretty little pansies popping up out of the ground. No lawn to cut, trim, or anything like that. RD: Nice. (laughs) What kind of activities did you participate in, around the house, around the neighborhood? DB: Around the house we had our assigned chores to do, like washing the dishes, making the beds, dusting and cleaning, the usual things for housekeeping. We didn't do much cooking. We didn't do much washing and ironing. We just...as we got older we did the ironing. Mama took care of the washing and the ironing and the cooking. As far as activities outside of the school activities, we went to the YWCA, I went to the YWCA. There was a girls' club, I don't remember the exact name of the girls' club but we did a little community work and we did crafts and things of that sort. Not much...I didn't do much...we went to church. And the church that I attended was a Methodist church and we had a youth group there and we did mostly learning about the Bible and the Ten Commandments and those kinds of things. I think my first major activity outside of school, home and church was the junior prom that I attended. And we decorated the gym at the school ourselves, we had a theme, please don't ask me to name the theme. RD: (laughs) Okay. DB: (laughs) But we had a theme and we did our own decorating. We had to cut the paper strips, you know how you buy them now? We cut them with a paper cutter and I did remember one incident about that particular prom. We were...schools exchanged choirs in competition and a choir from the Tidewater was coming up for competition at that time and as we were cutting the paper, somebody said, "They are here." And I think I got so excited when I heard, "They are here" that I caught my finger under the paper cutter. Now that was...that kind of put a little damper on things but they took care of it in the nurse's station and we went right on with the activity of decorating. RD: What kind of work did your family do? DB: My dad worked for Norfolk and Western. He was a car cleaner. They didn't provide...the AfricanAmerican's at that time did the menial jobs, the labor jobs, and he cleaned the cars. That was his job. My mom did not work outside of the house until I was in high school. And she substituted in the school cafeterias, cooking. RD: Did you ever have an afterschool job or anything like that growing up? DB: Not during my high school days, I didn't. My job was to hit the books and make good grades and plan on doing something with my life. (laughs) RD: Okay. We're going to talk a little bit about your school life. You said you attended Lucy Addison? DB: Yes. RD: Did you walk to school or did you take the bus? �DB: Walked. Walked to school. Rain, snow, sleet or shine, we went to school. RD: No snow days back then? DB: No snow days. No "too hot" days, nothing like that. We went to school every day. RD: So I guess you never wanted to stay home from school just... DB: Only if we had severe illnesses, not a little cough, but if we had...childhood diseases that I remember: I had measles. I didn't have mumps until I was an adult. When my daughter had mumps, then I had mumps. We had measles, we had chicken pox and... Maybe if we had a really, really bad cold, but I don't even remember being, missing school a lot because of illnesses. RD: Okay. How much schooling did you complete, obviously you went through... DB: Finished college and did studies beyond, but I have only one degree. RD: What college did you go to? DB: I went to Virginia State College in Petersburg. RD: Did a lot of African-Americans go to college then? Or... DB: Most of my friends did. Most of my friends went to school. In fact, during senior year, several girls formed a club, and we called ourselves "The Orange Blossom Soarers", and we used to go down to...Addison was the old school where the administration building is now. And we used to go down...during lunch time we'd go down to the playground and it was lined with orange blossoms and that's where we got the idea, name of "Orange Blossom". And we stayed together that senior year. When we graduated from high school, we disbanded and most of, all of us went to college, went away to college. Maybe one or two stayed and got jobs in the city. And after we finished college, we came back in Roanoke and started this club again, and we now exist as Omnia Bona Club Inc. So that club grew out of the high school gathering and we're kind of proud of that. (laughs) RD: Did anyone else in your family attend college? DB: My sister attended one yea, and she became ill and had to come out of school, and she didn't go back. RD: Okay. Can you please describe your home life for us? For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening, or maybe the first time you got a refrigerator or a telephone. DB: (laughs) I do remember having an ice box to keep our foods refrigerated that sat on our back porch. And I don't know if you all know anything about an ice box or not, but the ice man would come through the neighborhood and sell blocks of ice and you could get twenty-five pounds or fifty pounds, that kind of thing. And I don't remember the year, the exact date or anything, but I do remember when we got our first refrigerator. That was a major, major thing for us. We had radio. That was our at-home entertainment. I vaguely remember when we got our first black-and-white TV. I guess I...I'm almost sure �I was in college when we got our first TV. We didn't have telephone. We used...if we needed emergency calls, people needed to call us at a neighbor's house across the street. When I first started major dating after I graduated from college, my today's husband used to call me at the neighbor's house across the street. And then the everyday chores of keeping a house and those kinds of things we did on a routine basis. RD: Okay. Did you ever sit on the porch in the evening? DB: Sat on the porch a lot. Yes, we did. We certainly did. And earlier you asked me about having a job in high school. I didn't have a job but we were like neighborhood errand people. People...I remember we lived on a hill, like. And the store, there was a grocery store at the foot of the hill. And I would go up and down that hill for family or neighbors or anybody, you know, anybody in the neighborhood. And the...in the earlier days, four was like five cents a pound, sugar ran something like ten cents a pound, and we bought things by the pound. We could also keep our count at the grocery store and my dad got paid once a month and we would pay that bill off before we started another one. but we could keep, get like a loaf of bread or the things that we called staple foods at the grocery store. And when you'd go to the store, the neighbors would say thank you sometimes and then sometimes they would say, you can keep the penny change or the nickel change and that was like really a great reward. So that's was probably as much work that we did, I did. RD: Okay. Did you, a spouse, or children ever serve in the military? DB: My husband was in the military. He was in the army, and he spent...all this happened before I married him. He spent a good time in the European theater. He was in World War II. He spent a good time in the European theater. When he went over, they were close to ending the war and just had to secure the place and see that it was kept secure. RD: So he was just, like, military police then? DB: Well, technically his job was in the...he cooked. He cooked. RD: Okay. Were there any businesses or shops that your family frequented a lot? I know you said the grocery store. DB: Yes, the grocery store. And there were the stores on Henry Street. And we could walk to Henry Street, I guess, four, let's see, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three...so I guess it was about seven blocks to Henry Street, seven blocks to Henry Street. And on Henry Street, there were places like...there was a drug store...my dentist was off Henry Street, but I could walk to that. We had bus transportation but we didn't use it, because we were strong enough and healthy enough to walk. And across, we would walk across Henry Street, cross a bridge and we would be in the downtown area of Roanoke, and the downtown area of Roanoke at that time had department stores like Heironimus and N.W. Pugh and those places and Woolworth's Five and Ten. The fountains were segregated, the bathrooms were segregated, and my mom instilled in us, take care of your private business before you go to town. Do not drink from the segregated fountain. Do not use the segregated bathroom. Go down there and do �what you go to town for and come back home. And that's what we did. When we needed a dress for a special occasion, she would go with us, and we just went to the store, made the purchase, and came back to our side of town. RD: Okay. Do you recall any instances where, like, somebody used the wrong drinking fountain or anything? DB: I don't, I don't recall anything like that. I think we were kind of sheltered, like, from it, because she just made a point, be sure you do not attempt to drink, you know, from the fountain. Do not go to the bathroom. And we never had emergencies, because that was ingrained in us, you know. We went to town...I'm sure there were incidents that occurred, but...when the integration process started, I guess I was in, ready to go to college then, and they...I don't remember the incidents that occurred to bring us through that. RD: What was it like after the integration, when there were no segregated stalls or anything? Was it surreal or..? DB: Actually, I...the first time that I went to the American Theatre--that was a segregated situation--I was just so disappointed because when I walked in there, in the part that I could really get into, that they had kept us out of, I was just shocked that...why couldn’t I go in there, because it was not that grandiose or anything like that. I do remember going to the movies downtown and sitting in the balcony and they were not well-kept and there were little visitors there, little mice that ran around. And because of that situation, we just didn't go there that often; we just stayed away from those things. RD: Okay. What was your fondest childhood memory? Like a favorite family vacation or a gift or..? DB: I guess my fondest memory...because my dad worked for the N&W, he could get free passes that allowed us to ride the train from Norfolk, Virginia, to Cincinnati, Ohio, and in the summertime that was like a, almost like routine thing, we would get on the train and you could ride down to Norfolk, get out and spend the day down there. Or we would ride up to Cincinnati and get out and spend the day there, go to the zoo. Those are memorable occasions to us. My grandparents lived in Bluefield, West Virginia, and that, we could ride the train to Bluefield. In the summertime, we would go there and spend some time there with my grandparents. And those were fun days. RD: Now you said you went to Cincinnati...that was desegregated. Was it a change to go from segregation to desegregations and then back to segregation? DB: Well, the things that we did...we just, we would concentrate on staying in, mostly around the train station. Have lunch, there was a zoo in Cincinnati, we always went to that zoo, and we didn't encounter any situations there, it was just fun. That I remember. RD: Okay. What kind of work have you done throughout your life? DB: Well, I was a teacher for thirty years. I retired in 1990. Since then, my husband is in the ministry now. He was not always in the ministry; he was not in the ministry when I married him. And we do �visitations. Sick people, we visit sick people. I did, I belonged to Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. That was the sorority that I joined when I was in college. And we have community projects that I participate in. The group Omnia Bona Inc. is somewhat like a sorority. It's a sisterhood and we do community projects and I spend time doing that. What, one of the after-retirement projects that we did...we had a reading academy through the sorority and we'd go after school and help second- and third-graders with their reading problems. That's about it. Volunteer work. And I read a lot. I don't read as much now as I used to, because I have had one cataract removed and I need to have the other one removed and I haven't had that done yet. So I don't read quite as much as I used to. RD: Did you ever use the public library for reading? DB: Yes, yes I did. (laughs) When we were growing up, we used the Gainsboro Library. And it was always a treat to go to the Gainsboro Library. The...Virginia Y. Lee, the lady who was responsible for getting the Gainsboro Library started was the librarian. She was very kind to us when we would come in. And I on occasion do use the library downtown. I have two grandchildren that excite me. And their activities now are sort of like, anything that they're in, I try to be involved in that. The boy is twenty, in fact, he was twenty yesterday, he goes to school at North Carolina Central. He plays baseball for them; they're not doing too well right now. The granddaughter is sixteen and she's a junior in high school, and she'd passionate about dance. She dances competitively and whenever I can, I go to North Carolina to become involved in either her recitals or the boy's activities and school. RD: Okay. Do you remember who some of the strong community leaders were and what role they played in the Civil Rights movement or just anytime in Roanoke? DB: Well, I know Reverend Wilkerson was instrumental in...He was very much involved in the integration role. Reverend Taylor, he was mayor of Roanoke. He was involved in community activities and my husband is a member of his church and I became involved in a lot of activities that were going on at High Street. My husband also has his church in Fincastle, Virginia. And he goes, pastors there on two Sundays, and then we minister to the congregation by visiting them. There was a lawyer in Roanoke, Reuben Lawson; he was instrumental in the integration process. I always looked up to my teachers; my teachers were sort of like my role models. They were good, they were caring, they taught character-building as well as education, and that impressed me a lot. My teachers impressed me a lot. RD: Did you try carry on that when you became a teacher? DB: I think I did. I think I did. I tried to show concern for my students and I was a pretty strong disciplinarian. And I think I picked all of that up from the teachers that I had had before me. And then several of the female teachers that I had were members of Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority and that influenced my going into that sorority, as well as my sister, she, the year that she was in school, she was in the pledge club. And she had pledged the Ivy League club, which was the...it's different today; you stayed in the pledge club before you could go into the sorority at that time. So those were my influences in going into the sorority. �RD: Okay. Can you describe any cultural events that happened in Roanoke, like for entertainers that came, big names or..? DB: Mahalia Jackson came to Roanoke, Cab Calloway came to Roanoke. Can't think of the man's name, he sang "Lordy, Lordy, Miss Claudy," and I know you all don't know anything about that song, but...and he played a guitar, I can just see him running across that stage. I could not go to places to see things like that until after I went to college, but I do remember we had Mahalia Jackson in the Valley View Mall. She performed there. The other people that come to mind, I saw those people after I graduated college in Greensboro, North Carolina. Thinking about Roanoke, I can’t think of anybody else right now. RD: What were some of the biggest changes you’ve seen in the City of Roanoke over the years? DB: I think the major change in Roanoke has been the redeveloping area. The part of Gainsboro that I grew up in is no longer there. The hill that I lived on, they leveled that and today, in that general area, there are some industries, there’s a hotel, motel, the Orange Avenue Family Center was there, it is where it is now, so it’s still there, the section before you get to the catholic church and that area all has been leveled and there are some new, small homes there, because when they leveled the street that I lived on, we… my dad was able to get a grant and he rebuilt on another street in that same area, so I think the redeveloping areas were the major things that changed Roanoke. The Downtown area is nothing like it was when I was growing up. The malls came in and all of the businesses moved out to the malls, stores moved out to the malls. The way Downtown is now is much different than it was when I was growing up. RD: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills, at all? DB: Vaguely, very vaguely. RD: You said most of the jobs available for men and women in Roanoke were service oriented before integration. DB: Yes, before integration. The Norfolk and Western was the main employment for people of color and the Veterans Hospital in Salem. RD: Is there anything else that we didn’t cover that you would like to share with us today? DB: I can’t think of anything else. I think that about covers it. RD: Well, thank you so much for your time. DB: You’re welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Delois C. Broady Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Delois C. Broady Interviewer: Robert Dulin Date: 15 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 30:24 Transcription prepared by: Chelsea Seddon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Delois C. Broady; Robert Dulin, Chelsea Seddon Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BroadyDelois https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2720/HuffMae_[compressed].mp3 5f759404cad0168c046bc8c7b3096136 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mae Huff Subject The topic of the resource Southwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mae Huff Interviewer: unknown Date: 15 March 2010 Location: unknown Total Duration: 1:00:15 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mae Huff Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HuffMae https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/AndersonCharles_[compressed].mp3 9c9a229089ced5b4211333ec52e038e7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/AndersonCharles.pdf d5245bb698abc56a61d1500acad36e54 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Charles Anderson Interviewer(s): Alijah Webb, Elijah Williams, and Peter Townsend Transcriber: Dyron Knick Date: March 10, 2010 AW: So, how long have you lived in Roanoke? What streets and neighborhoods did you live in? CA: I've lived in Roanoke, I'm 89 now, I think we moved here when I was about 4 years old, 85 years. I have lived on Madison Avenue Northwest, Loudon Avenue Northwest, and presently, now, on Rugby Boulevard Northwest. AW: Let's talk about your school life, for instance, where did you attend school? CA: I attended school in Roanoke and at the time I attended school, [inaudible] I lived in Southwest on 12 1/2 Street, I guess, about 67 years probably and at that time, there was a Harrison Annex School right at the end of 10th Street and Norfolk Avenue and it was a three grade school; first, second and third grades. I went to Harrison Annex for those three grades and then upon finishing that school, I proceeded on to the regular Harrison School on Harrison Avenue. Did you ask about how I got to school? AW: How did you get to school? CA: Back in those days, we walked. It wasn't bad when we went to Harrison Annex because that was about four or five blocks, but when I came to Harrison School, Middle School, I guess it was about a 2 or 3 mile trek to school one way and we had to walk across 10th Street Bridge and of course, no buses back then too. And, so we... the hardest thing was when we had deep snows, see there was no street cleaning or anything. We had to walk with snow up to your knees almost and there were railings and if you slipped you could fall through the railings right onto the railroad back in those days. It was hazardous, but incidentally no one happened to succumb to those accidents. Of course, at that time we were... found it fun, we didn't wait on the snow days, we were happy to get out and walk all the way to Harrison School on snow days and back. It was an adventure there through middle school. PT: What year did you say you were born in? CA: 1921 AW: What school activities and sports did you do? CA: My main hobby was photography. I always had a little candid camera and I considered myself to be sort of a sports...I mean I took pictures of sports, but I never participated in any sports, but I took pictures and did so called interviews about athletes, I was a reporter back in those young days. PT: What kind of camera did you have? �CA: Back then I had a little Kodak something, you know, the box job and so, I had some descent, faily good...I never left home without it and still [inaudible] my heart now is photography and raising roses and gardening. AW: So, how is Addison different than when you went here? CA: When I was at Addison, it was an institution. It was almost, to us, it was almost like college, because when you go from middle school to Addison it was a great difference in the atmosphere and we really felt it. We had really moved up; a lot of steps when you left the middle school to go to high school, because [inaudible]. PT: You said that you did interviews with the sports people? Did you like.... CA: Just the kids. We had a little individual who...sport newspapers and that kind of stuff within the student body. PT: You wrote articles and stuff about the sporting events? CA: Just only the ones, like we had a game a particular night and we would do an article the star that night or something like that, who made a touchdown and blah, blah, blah. We were being professional back then. AW: Did you ever meet Miss Lucy Addison. CA: No, I did not have the opportunity to meet her, because she was at Harrison in '29 and I don't think I was that early, I mean, I wasn't at Harrison at that time and then, when she was at Harrison, well she was still young, so I didn't have any particular awareness of her status back then. AW: Let's move on to life at home. What were the family stories that were passed down from one generation to another; for instance, did your family have stories about memories during the Civil War or about slavery? CA: Well, not war per se, but my parents were...I don't know whether they lived on a plantation or what the living conditions were, 'cause my mother reached 105 years old before she passed and I do know that she was a great horse lady back then and she would ride from plantation to plantation to carry messages and borrow stuff and everything. She was very athletic. I do remember her playing baseball and those type things. PT: Did she play in a woman's league or did she... CA: Neighborhood type...even in her elderly years, she was still 103, she was out at Friendship Manor and she would still get out and run, but nobody could catch her. [inaudible] in there and we can't catch her. I guess I had the blood, but she was an athlete [inaudible]. I did have a brother who played semipro baseball. PT: Tell me about your family. What was it like? �CA: As I say, we were from West Virginia. My father passed away at an early age and we came, when we moved to Roanoke, well I had two brothers and my brother and my mother worked and I got an early education in housekeeping. 8, 9, 10 years old I was able to shop, pay bills, and housekeep, learned to wash and iron at a very early age. All those things in preparation for later days of life, so I became pretty proficient in the housekeeping situation because I was the one that had to do it. I was 13, my brothers were older than I, so I would wash the shirts and pants and press them; probably get 25 cents a day to go out or something like that. It was neat. We had a very good life considering the time. AW: What is you fondest childhood memory; for example, a favorite holiday event, favorite vacation spot, a favorite gift that you received? CA: I guess as child, my favorite holiday was Christmas and my brother...I had my middle brother who was my closest friend and he would always do Christmas shopping. He admired buying stuf. The amazing thing about it, they...see those times, they would put the Christmas tree up on Christmas Eve night, it wasn't no early decorations or nothing like that, go to bed early and wake up in the morning, Christmas tree is decorated, everything is just like magic; presents under the tree and I realized at a kinda early age there wasn't a Santa Claus, because my brother would write on the little tag to Charles from Santa Claus and I recognized his handwriting, so it was a joke. He would call me, "Get up, go downstairs. See what Santa Clause"...I would go and look and I went on for years, I didn't reveal that I know who it was until much later. [inaudible] PT: What happened when you did tell him; when he finally revealed...? CA: It was just a mean joke and he laughed. He was basically my father figure anyway. He helped mom buy my clothes, schooling and everything like that. I lived highly, I would consider, because... PT: What was his name? CA: His name was Reginald. AW: What church did your family attend growing up? CA: When we lived in Southwest, we went to Jerusalem Baptist Church. Then when we moved to Northwest, my mother attended Loudon Avenue Christian Church. I went with her where ever she went. Then, I don't want to get to far ahead of you...a long way from the question, because I may go ahead of some of the questions you might ask. PT: You don't need to worry about it. CA: When we did move to Northwest and she was going to Loudon, at that time, we moved to Northwest and I began high school at Addison. That was a true adventure once you got into high school. I had a bike and living on Madison Avenue, of course, we had a lot of neighbors at that time, beautiful neighbors. I would ride my bike to church, I mean to school, but I had two girl neighbors who...they would be early class, but they would come by my house and wait and I would double them to school. We would go...At that time, all I had to do was go over 8th Street and down to Orange Avenue, which �was Lynchburg Turnpike at the time and run them down to Patterson and across the playground. We would almost be running late, even at that time. They'd get off the bus and run across the playground and go into the school. It was fun, even under those circumstances. That's when I got mostly involved in my photography and doing so-called school interviews and stuff like that. I graduated in 1939. As a little side job, I used to work for a drugstore; in the afternoon after school I would, at that time, we had delivered prescriptions, delivered on bike. I guess I had hit every street in town, because when people had delivery I had to take 'em out and that was my exercise. Sometimes you wonder, I didn't play football, track or nothing like that, but I think I put on at least 25-30 miles on that bike everyday going all over town. So I was a physical being. I've been very blessed heath wise and everything up into my mid80s. I haven't really been in major ailments or anything. I have to look back on my condition back then, unaware. Then come '43, that's when I went into the service, World War II. AW: Could you describe your work with the St. Gerard's Catholic Church and its foundation? CA: [inaudible] I went into the service and I went to Loudon Avenue Christian Church with my mother in '43 and when I came back, and due to the relationships with priests in the service, then I came back in '46 and 1946 is when St. Gerard's was founded. As of now, I'm the only living founding member of St. Gerard's. That has been a really wonderful religious journey for me. I have worked with all the priests in this period of time, from '46 up until today. I think we have had 30 more priests who have served St. Gerard's during this period of time. I have worked and served and thought of them. My founding priest, Father McDonald, we had worked very closely together. We had 3 locations. At one time, they met in a home on McDowell Avenue. That was a very brief time. Then from McDowell, during our time, Superintendent McQuilkin was a superintendent in the school and we were able to contact superintendent McQuilkin to secure Harrison School. We had mass at Harrison School for a very short period of time, also. We were in negotiations with buying a house for the service, we bought it on Moorman Road. That was probably '47, I believe. I don't know. But anyway, then we bought the property on Orange Avenue and started construction on the corner of 8th Street and Orange Avenue. PT: You said that you moved it onto; you started construction on Orange Avenue? CA: Yeah, I figure, I'm thinking 1951. As I stated, I don't know I was [inaudible] building the community at that time. It was the community; it was very, very close. All over the catholic church we had, on our board, a Jewish fellow, Dr. Downing, we were very multicultured at the time. Then, [inaudible] Our Lady of Nazareth was over on Campbell Avenue at the time and they supported us 100% because of the sisters that came and helped us, services. Of course our high school was very, very cooperative because we were of real strong community. We had all types of activities supported by the school. We had plays and at that time, we had the Academy of Music on Salem Avenue, almost like a opera hall. Our teachers from Addison would help to produce plays and we'd have plays over at the Academy of Music. Miss Alta May Thomas was first teacher at Addison. She was a member of St. Gerard's and she taught music there and we had musical concerts in each one of the study groups. As time progressed the church grew very rapidly. It was originally built to be for the black residents of Roanoke, but we became very integrated and really became the kind of church that's supposed to be universal anyway. We were actually the most universal church in the city because we had, always had many cultures in the beginning and up to �this date. We had about 7 or 8 cultures at St. Gerard's as of this date. I have held almost every office in the church, pastoral counseling, Eucharistic minister is almost like a deacon, I have done that, serving the sick in the community of church and home of many years. I have attempted writing a history of the church, that's where my photography came in, because I had a great photographic history of the events that went on with the church back in the day. We have progressed to such a great extent; we've been recognized throughout out diocese as one of the most universal churches. As Catholics we have a great choir, the Catholic St. Gerard's Gospel Choir, sings throughout the city during the holidays. We are just proud of our history and Knights of Columbus Council with over 80 members. It's very active and supportive of the church and the neighborhood or where ever the needs comply to. In and about what the church, in the '90s, Of course during all this time, as a hobby, roses have been in my heart. I mean I have many roses and never get tired. I have over 200 roses now. I took a course out at the VPI extension course on Brambleton Avenue; I'm a master gardener. That happened in...I've been a master gardener now for between 12 and 15 years. I'm on the board of the Roanoke Rose Society of Virginia, also. I've been involved with the Society for about 4 or 5 years, but I have been growing roses for 40 years or more. In connection with the Master Gardeners, we had to do a project. We worked with Hurt Park School. We had a garden project up there for about 8 or 9 years. We had some beautiful crops, even in the real hot seasons. We had beautiful stuff, dig those heads. (shows picture) PT: Is this with the garden society that these were taken? CA: Yes, it was with the Master Gardeners, yes. PT: You took all of these pictures yourself? CA: Yes. This is, he was a teacher at Hurt Park at the time. The guy behind him, Phillip Fulcher, he's a retired vice president of a bank called Wachovia. He and I worked together on the project about 8 or 9 years until it wasn't anymore. Then, that was one of my really prized...we really enjoyed doing this. This is just a...I have a bunch of these because this went on for about 7 or years, we were into this little deal. That's really a great community project and everything. We have another civic organization that we did was Faith Works. Faith Works came to Roanoke, it was a garden-based civic organization based in California. We worked...they were recruiting neighborhood activists to work on different projects. One of the guys recruiting came into St. Gerard's and asked our Priest who he would recommend to get into this project. I was selected. That was in '99. We went to San Francisco and Los Altos, it's about 34 miles from San Francisco. It was a beautiful retreat center where we went for training. It was almost like a paradise, it was so landscaped, it was just a beautiful city. We were there for a week. We came back to put into practice what we had learned at the workshop. Even in the workshop, they taught us the approach to City Council members, if you wanted to go do...a case to prepare for the council, we had a step procedure to get to the council appointments. We would go to them or they would be invited to our organization. We would carry our please to them. Our first project was, we had the council meet at St. Gerard's and we offered some suggestions and projects for that particular year. The overgrowth was, the sidewalk was just covered from Orange Avenue, 8th Street all the way down past, from 8th Street up there to Hurt Park. At that time, the school traffic light would not work; it hadn't worked, I guess, for 20 years. At that time, we had our meeting here with the City Manager, Chief of Police and everyone. �Within a week, those problems were corrected. They sent a crew up here and backhoed and cleaned up all that stuff on the sidewalk; the light was blinking, it's been blinking ever since. That's been 12 years ago, so when you look around and see some of the things that we had accomplished through Faith Works and, of course, you may have heard of Southeast by Design...Well, our leader was instrumental in...because we had three organizations in Southeast that was...they just couldn't see eye to eye whatsoever. So, this guy Ray Higgins was the organizer for Faith Works and he was able to get those three organizations together and working like clockwork and so, they really got this Southeast by Design program that was another big success for Faith Works. The amazing thing was we had a meeting on Southeast in St. Gerard's every Month and Southeast would come down and meet and numbers count. Another good thing in the meeting process is to get sort of a, not necessarily a real large court, so you can pack people in...you pack 10 people in it looks like you have 200 in there. It works. If we have a meeting in here, about 10 people in here, it would be packed. If you look around, you have a real good attendance. Even with the help in Southeast, they really have...Congressman Goodlatte has been at our meetings and all of those things and during the process...I never figured it out, did it ever get to the White House with Faith Works is a nationwide organization and when we have any kind of big issues, on the floor, at the White House, for our community, we just go up there and meet the Senators, meet the Congressmen, whatever, see. We went up there to lobby for, back then healthcare has been an issue for years, not only is it a hot issue now, but kids healthcare. This last year after all of these years they were able to get the healthcare complete for all the children. I never thought I'd get to do any kind of lobbying or meeting Congressmen and all of that kind of stuff and be interviewed, but it's been a wonderful organization. We have sort of figured out now, because normally with organizations like that, when you accomplish your mission, well, you gotta dig around and try to find new issues, and quite often, you don't have a lot of new issues. Faith Works, in the area, sort of dwindled down, but now I am a co-chair with the Melrose-Rugby Neighborhood Forum. It was chaired by Ms. Estelle McCadden. That's the greatest...we have about close to 40 neighborhood organizations in the city. We pride ourselves as being number one. We meet every fourth Tuesday and we do have 25-30 people and cops come in and get a report and they report on the activities throughout the area and they say they really like to come there because these other meetings get 4 or 5 people. They enjoy the group and participation and things. It's sort of a capsule of community activities are concerned, because as of now we are working on a deal with the Knights of Columbus, we are bringing the bishop here, see this is the year of the priest and the bishop will be here on the 27th of this month. We are proud of Father [inaudible] he will be getting an award and the bishop will be getting an award. This will be a really wonderful thing. At our church, we have just working on almost completing the church documented yearbook. I've done a lot of photography to contribute to the book. Because, when you leave...I still think about a whole lot of other stuff... PT: We're getting to the point where we need to start wrapping up as well. AW: Is there anything else? PT: I have dozens more questions, but... CA: Well, some of the...well a couple of... �PT: For one last one, one thing that I was wondering is, you mentioned when you went into the service how the priest in the service helped compel you to come back and start founding St. Gerard's... CA: Not founding, but I became interested in the church. They were inspirational in me coming back and joining the church. That was the thing, because the priest just came down here, Father McDonald(?) come down from Boston to establish the church and he had a little...even on Henry Street at that time...he had an information center on Henry Street, so people would come in and learn about the church and everything. I was an information dealer and that's how I got involved with the church. We were of service to the LOC, but I guess if it hadn't been for the information, I may not have gotten involved, but since it was there I went into.. PT: Well, the priest, while you were in the service, were you in the Army or...? CA: Yes, I was in the Pacific Theater. Went in New Guinea, in new Guinea about 3 or 4 months and from New Guinea to Manila and we went into Manila, were packed up for the invasion of Japan. We were on Manila from July until, Japan attacked, bombed...because that was the greatest miracle that ever happened when they bombed Japan, because if we had invaded at that time before they bombed them out, it would have been millions of people...normally we wouldn't be able to touch the loss that we had there. Be we did occupy. We occupied Tokyo. I was in Tokyo and Yokohama before I was discharged in 1946. PT: That poses another 10 questions, but did you have a question? AW: Yes, I have one last question...Did you go to college and where? CA: No, I only went to trade school, Booker T. Washington trade School. That was after high school when I...it was beyond high school. It was a postwar situation. We had Booker T., it was affiliated with Booker T. Memorial. We had teachers come up from Tuskegee and open up this Booker T. Washington trade school. I took a couple of courses in brick laying, which I've done a little brick laying. I was able to repair my own home. The training I took I was able to utilize it myself and didn't do it in a professional way, but I was able to improve my own living conditions through training, I guess. AW: Thank you for participating. CA: Well, very glad, very glad to. About how will this be documented, how will you do it? Will you edit it up and everything? � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/CA_1_Hurt_Park_Garden.TIF e91d05ad38263426fd94272e9c3eca5a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/CA_2_Hurt_Park_Garden.TIF b1f0134040a4c299b882f38b52f8c35a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/CA_3_Hurt_Park_Garden.TIF b9b2b7157afaa16af30eed98c60d2301 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/CA_4_Hurt_Park_Garden.TIF 05316368bc6f39400697b938ffda9dbe https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/CA_5_Hurt_Park_Garden.TIF 5f8a89080eb28f74526da8adf0081817 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2719/CA_6_Hurt_Park_Garden.TIF c9a8d3761de6c3578b6323e8e6c0693c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Charles Anderson Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Charles Anderson Interviewers: Peter Townsend; Alijah Webb; Elijah Williams Date: 10 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 43:08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Charles Anderson; Peter Townsend; Alijah Webb; Elijah Williams Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AndersonCharles https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2718/PennWilliam_[compressed].mp3 4c9646180b7f125bd9aa56c9071ff203 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with William Penn Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with William Penn Interviewer: Drew Mines Date: 4 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 21:13 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PennWilliam https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2717/OllieArleen_[compressed].mp3 085b5e5a42c44225926da564109ddd3b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Arleen Ollie Subject The topic of the resource Northeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Arleen Ollie Interviewers: Ashley Lewis; DeAsia Calloway; Chantel Wilson Date: 4 March 2010 Location: Lucy Addison Middle School Total Duration: 37:12 Transcription prepared by: Ashley Lewis Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4 March 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Arleen Ollie; Ashley Lewis; DeAsia Calloway; Chantel Wilson Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OllieArleen https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2716/McFarlandRoy_[compressed].mp3 bfb485cca22bfb4db12570d32391543c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Roy Nelson McFarland, Jr. Subject The topic of the resource Williamson Road Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Roy Nelson McFarland, Jr. Interviewer: Michaele J. Moore Date: 18 February 2010 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 47:57 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 February 2010 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roy Nelson McFarland, Jr.; Michaele J. Moore Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McFarlandRoy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2715/BeaneAntinette_[compressed].mp3 adde4818bf023a3390484ef2da4de3f6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2715/BeaneAntinette.pdf 75a8fe9a723d149f1088bd54f94d13b7 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Antinette Beane Interviewer: C.L. Bohannon Transcriber: Andrew Sterling CB: Where and when were you born? AB: I was born in Minnick, North Dakota, on August 24, 1965. My dad was in the Army – I mean the Air Force and, of course, I was an Air Force brat. CB: Did you have anyone else in your family in the military? AB: No, not that I know of, just my dad. CB: Did he fight in any wars? AB: He didn't. He didn't fight in any wars, he mainly played basketball (laughing). He played basketball and we traveled. We traveled to Europe and lived there for about 2 years. Um, we went to England then we came back to the states and back to Roanoke, which was his hometown and my mom's hometown. CB: How long have you lived in Roanoke? AB: Since I was about 2 and never moved away – Been here all, well, most of my life. CB: What streets and neighborhoods did you live in? AB: OK. We started off in Roanoke City right on Cove Road but then my mom and my dad split up and we moved to the County and we were on 419 and I went to Green Valley Elementary and then we moved back to Roanoke City as I got older for middle school and high school. William Murphy (??) Middle School and then I went to William Fleming to graduate. CB: Tell me about your parents and brothers and sisters. AB: Well, OK, I will start with my dad first. My dad was John W. Brown and again he was an Air Force man and he was a tall man with a gentle spirit. When he got out of the Air Force, he worked for Norfolk Southern as (pause) I guess he was a trains men that would couple up – there was not any black engineers at that time so what he did I guess he was a brakes man or something like that. They would have to couple up the trains and so forth or whatever they did. And then after he left the railroad, he had a lot of businesses. My daddy like (laughing) he liked to, uh, he was the entrepreneur. I would put it that way. He worked for Church's Chicken, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Chickasee. I'm not sure if you have heard of that. But anyway, he ended up owning his own place and it was called Omirs (??) Restaurant and Lounge, so CB: Where was that located? AB: That was on Melrose, a very hot spot and he would take care of pretty much everybody in there. They could go in and would not have to worry about problems even though it was in kind of a rough area. CB: How long did he own that? AB: (laughing) He owned it until he could not do it anymore. His health would not allow him to be around smoke and stuff. So its only been about 5 years since he has given it up. Oh yeah, my dad (laughing) he, uh, he's a good spirit. Now my mom – My mom (pause) is a trooper. My mother, um, wow, my mom after well, hmm (pauses and starts tearing up) Anyway – (pauses again) CB: Take as much time as you need. AB: (Pause continues) My mom, um, she took care of us. She had 3 girls, myself being the middle child, my sister being the oldest and then another little girl and when my mom and my dad separated or got a divorce, she held the fort down. She could only see out of one eye and, um, she made, she made it. She got a job at Norfolk Southern as a clerk and typist and she stayed there for 20 something years until she retired. Yeah and uh, she had been through a lot. Quite a bit, but she was a strong, strong soldier. And let's see (laughing) anyway – What was the other question about my siblings? CB: Brothers or sisters or extended family nearby? 1 �AB: Well, yeah, I have some people that are dear to me that helped raise me – Um, when my mom and dad split. Um, my Aunt Louise Bolling, which was a lady over at Gainsboro Library, yep, she was the assistant librarian there for years. I think she retired in like '85. CB: What was her name again? AB: Louise Bolling and, um, they helped raise us. Whatever my mom could not do, they filled in the spots. 'Cause she was my great-aunt, but she was more like my second mother. Um, her name was Louise Bolling. Her husband worked for the railroad. His name was W. A. Bolling and he was a porter, hmm, and uh, they lived at 1201 Staunton Avenue, and it was a big family there, five families there. We did not live there but it was like 5 brothers and sisters that lived there. CB: Were they from Roanoke originally or - ? AB: They were from Welch, West Virginia, and, um, then they moved here and that was their family home. My granddaddy lived there too and he had a hog business and worked for the railroad. So we come from a railroad family. Um, I remember them killing hogs about this time and they would have sausage, ham, all the good stuff (laughing) everything was pretty much homemade, you know. We had the finest of foods. We did not have a lot of money but we had pretty much everything we needed, everything we needed. Um, that was the 1201 Stauton, and, like I said, she was the library assistant at Gainsboro Library. A lot of people don't mention her because she was the head, but she was there for many years. That's the only library I used to go to. The only library we were allowed to go to was Gainsboro. She was there for many years and, uh, so, that's that on that, but like I said, they filled in when my mom couldn't or my dad couldn't. CB: Describe your house. AB: (laughing) My current house now? CB: Growing up, houses that you remember spending time in. AB: Um, well, then my mom kept a clean house, very clean. Um, like I said, we did not have a lot but she made sure it was very clean. Now, um, a lot of times, I remember my aunt's house, my Aunt Louise's houses and to me that was a little bit more stable as far as – I'm not sure if it was because there were so many people there or what but I got some of my fondest memories from my Aunt Louise's house. CB: Is the house still there? AB: Its still there – 1201 Staunton Avenue and, um, she was like the glue that held all the family together. CB: Did they have a garden or anything? AB: Oh yeah! They had a garden. They had grape vines. We had homemade jelly, applesauce, everything. Right here on Staunton. CB: What type of vegetables did they grow? AB: Cucumbers, green beans, collards, pretty much everything. Even sage that I have learned we used in our sausages and, um, in our turkey dressing and stuff like that. They would even make apple butter, mmmm. Homemade rolls pretty much everything. Chow Chow everything so we had good eating. (laughing) CB: What kind of activities did you participate in as a child through your adult age in Roanoke? AB: Well, what I would do, uh, I started off working a little bit. I started at about 12 cleaning houses and stuff with my aunts and stuff like that. But then, once I got to high school, I was a little bit more active in school so I ran track. I was a flag girl. Oh, I was in pageants. I would do little pageants and stuff. I was in charm school, uh, Charles W. Day's wife ran a charm school. And what she did was, she would try to get us together and she wanted us to know how to carry yourself when you would go places, how to walk, talk, and stuff like that and she would do a fashion show and sometimes she would do a pageant. CB: Where was the charm school located? 2 �AB: Actually, it started out at the Y out there on, uh, down by Gainsboro. Yep, that particular Y. Mm mmm. I can't think of her first name but she started that. Then I did some modeling for Jasmine's Models and that was done by Harry Alexander. Mm mm. Located right here in Roanoke. CB: You talked a little bit about this but, could you tell me more about the work that your family did? AB: Well, we had a lot of people with the railroad. It was Northern Western at first. The, it changed to Northern Southern and, uh, we had porters. We had train men – I think that was all we had back then. Then we had some entrepreneurs like my dad and umm the library work and that's pretty much it from what I know. And also my husband works at Norfolk Southern and he is an engineer and he is from Roanoke. CB: Where was he born? AB: Right here in Roanoke and uh, yeah, now his family is from out there in Cave Springs – Beane Electric. They have been in business for a very long time. He comes from a family of electricians and, umm, even though he does not have his license, he does work. He can pretty much do whatever. CB: Talk a bit more about your school life. AB: Uh, as far as, well CB: You talked some about where you attended school AB: I went to school in my early years at Green Valley which is out in the County, Roanoke County. And it was majority white and it was like two people, me and this other little boy, Benny Beane, and I married a Beane, that's weird (lauging). It was me and him all the way out until I moved and, uh, the people were really – I did not have any bad experiences and the schools were nice and, um, but I do remember it being all white pretty much except for us two. So, then we moved to the city and it was a little different for me. It was different. CB: Which school was that again? AB: Well, I went to elementary then we moved and went to Fairview and I just was not used to it. I had a a different transition. It was different but, uh, I did OK. I wanted to go back (laughing) and, uh, you could tell the difference in the schooling. In the County, we had longer days. We had longer days. We had more periods. I mean it looked more structured. When I got over to the city school, it was just totally different and, um, so by the time I got to junior high, middle school, I did pretty well but you could tell. If I had stayed in the County, I think I would have done a little better when I went to college. CB: Did you walk to school? How did you get there? AB: Yeah, we walked – we walked (laughing). Well, in the County, we did not walk because it was too far. But in the city, my mom had to be at work at a certain time, so we walked to school and back from school. There was all kinds of stuff going on (chuckles). We walked to school in the mornings. Someone would get in a fight or – Oh gosh, I remember this time we were walking home from school and this guy let his Doberman Pinscher out on us. Yep, I will never forget it. We ran. I, you know, this could not have been too long ago. He let his dog out on us to chase us. It was awful. CB: Where in the city did this take place? AB: This was in Northwest. It was a white guy. It was a group of them in a car. They let the dog out of the car to chase us. We were no bigger than that high I mean. Over near Shenandoah, they let that Doberman Pinscher out to chase us down. Yep, I will never forget it. But anyway CB: When did this happen? AB: It would have to have been 1970, yep, 1970. I will never forget that. Other than that – that was enough. We just walked to school and back from school. But, other than playing amongst ourselves, someone might get into an argument or CB: Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? AB: Umm mmm (laughing) No indeed. You would have to be so sick in order for that. But I like going to school. I didn't not want to not go to school. We were pretty healthy. So, umm mmm. 3 �CB: How much schooling did you complete? AB: I completed all the way up to 12th grade and 2 years at Virginia Western. I did not finish my last years. I did not get a degree should I say and, um, I went to Anthem and I stayed there for 15 years thinking that was going to be my last job (laughing). But anyway, we mature and grow, but umm, yeah, I was at Anthem for 15 years. CB: Did anyone in your family attend college? AB: Yes. My mom attended business school and she came out with a degree. CB: Where did she get her degree? AB: Uh, mm, OIC something that used to be here a long time ago Business College. I know she went to OIC but I don't know if it was a different business college. I don't know but she does have a degree. My dad does not have a degree. Um, my aunt, she did not have a degree. She had tuberculosis. She had to be in one of those iron lung things. Nope, not too many people that have a degree in my family. Now, on my husband's side, they have a lot of educators and people who have their degrees, umm mmm, the Beanes. CB: Can you describe your home life? AB: In the past of present? CB: Do you remember AB: (laughing) CB: What events do you remember or experiences that you remember when your family was together? AB: Mmm. For the most part, I remember me and my sister watching the Silvers on TV. I don't know if you remember them. They were a band group with these big afros. I remember getting _____. We lived in Northwest City then. I remember (pause) – Wow, for the most part I remember being happy. We were poor though. I look back now. We were really poor but I guess it did not take much. I remember when we got an Atari game and it would beep and beep – Pong! I remember us having that and we thought it was the best thing ever. Oh, we played that game. We had the little walking and talking dolls that were really tall like 5 feet tall and they used to sing all the songs from around the world, yep. Um, so we lived a pretty good childhood. CB: Do you remember any community gatherings or anything that stood out? AB: I do. I remember May Pole event when they would wrap the ribbon. Oh, it was beautiful. That was right down here at the Y. CB: Can you talk a bit more about the May Pole? AB: All I remember was the ribbons and how beautiful everybody was. It was like a social event and my mom took us down there for that. CB: Was this an annual event? AB: It must have been. It must have been. My sister was in it. Her name was Anita Powell and she got to walk up stage. They had made her this pretty satin gown and it was a big deal. I was not old enough but I do remember it quite vividly. It was beautiful. CB: What other community gatherings or events do you remember besides the May event? AB: Um, not too many. I remember – I don't know if this was my aunt taking us to Joe Muncies (???. This was a family owned grocery market and it would be right down the hill from Hill Street and we would go up there just about every other Saturday or whatever. To get our groceries and she would talk to you and they would find out all of the news (laughing) about everybody in the grocery store and, yeah, they would call her Mrs. Bee and, um, she would find out most of the information right there. I know I was not supposed to be listening but, uh, she would find out a lot of stuff there. I really don't remember too many main events. We did not go a lot of places. My mom did not drive for one thing. My dad did. My mom did not drive until after she – She had actually bought her a car and had her job but did not know how to drive. She was determined that she was going to drive 'cause we used to walk a lot of places. 4 �CB: Tell me about – Did you guys go to the hair dresser or - ? AB: No. Oh no. I wish we did. (laughing) They would get us in there on Saturday. We go 2 weeks and you would be in the kitchen with the hot comb. I've got my grandma's to this day. They would wash it and grease it and stuff. There was no such thing as a blow dryer 'cause they would do each little piece and they would straighten your hair and that was an all day job 'cause my momma had 3 girls. CB: And you all had 2 week cycles? AB: Yep. Every 2 weeks so we did not go to the hairdresser. That's when we got to high school, we may have went in middle school. I think that's when the perm came out. Hallelujah. (laughing) Be glad you are a guy. (laughing) CB: What about community stores? AB: Munsons is the one I remember. CB: Where was that located again? AB: It was like over near Hill Street, umm, I know they changed. Its a lot different now. It was near the Gainsboro area and I remember that store being very important because on Saturday you would make the market and people would go in there and get their groceries and you would just see everybody there. You know and I remember them wrapping our meat up in this butcher paper and, um, I just remember it being old timey, very old timey and, uh, with a good feeling. Its closed down now. I don't know if there are any other stores. CB: What chores did you have to do around the house? AB: Well, um, she split the chores between me and my oldest sister because my little sister was not old enough. So, she would take a week of kitchen and I would take a week of bathroom and vacuuming. Whoever got the kitchen, they mainly stuck to the kitchen. The other person would do the vacuuming and the bathrooms and you best have them done before she got home from work. This was every day, every day. So the house was spotless and then as we got older, we would have to make sure dinner was fixed. So, she would let us know what we needed to do as far as having dinner, you know, what was expected. What would be like – she would have the meat laid out or whatever. So we knew how to cook at an early age and I'm glad for that. Sometimes, I meet people and they don't know how to cook. (laughing) I can cook. I come from a long family of cooks. My daddy can cook. My mom can cook and both of her parents could cook very well. CB: Do you have dishes or recipes that have been passed down? AB: Well I say, umm, I make very good green beans, macaroni and cheese, stuffed celery, a nice ham. I do pretty good. I do pretty good but I'm not going to give my recipes away. (laughing) CB: Are there things that your mom or your grandmother cooked that have been passed down or things that you still cook today? AB: Um, (pause) yes, my mom makes a roast with Lipton Onion Soup Mix with and she would put that on there with some cream of mushroom and its different. Its really good and its one of the ones I still use. Now my dad is a really good chicken fryer and he tells me the best, well not, but I do it too, but the best way to do chicken is to make sure you clean it. The cleaning process is what makes the chicken taste better and seasoning before you flour it and making sure your grease is hot and all that wonderful stuff. Nothing really serious but just the basic stuff, so CB: What were the family stories that were passed down from one generation to another? AB: Well, I don't know of any from the war. My dad did not go to war and he was the only one who went into the service. It was him and another brother, but the brother died of a heart attack. He ______ his name was Charles Jr. So, he was the only one who went into the service but did not go to war. As far as stories being passed down, well, I don't really know. There probably are some, I just cant think of it. Um, just know that my aunt from West Virginia, Elizabeth Wells (??), her and her husband Harrison were married and they were originally from here but they – We have land out in Starkey to 5 �this day, 60 acres. She used to have her own shop and used to cook. It was like a (pause) a place where you had beer, a bar, like my dad but she was a 6 packing Annie. She would shoot you. (laughing) She was short. She was so short that when the ATM came out, she could not see over to get her money out. Really short. They called her shorty. She had a fuse about yay short. She would shoot you more than talk to you. Her and Harrison, her husband Harrison – He loved her and um, she never remarried after he died. He is buried out there on Starkey and Starkey is right now here on Cave Springs and um, like I said, he is buried out there but, um - Now she used to make a mean macaroni and cheese, and cobbler. So, that's some stuff that was passed down. CB: What is your fondest childhood memory? AB: My fondest childhood memory. Wow. I think one of my my favorite holidays is when I got a bike. CB: When was that? AB: Oh, um, probably in the '70s. It was purple and it had a white basket and the little things. I rode it in the house and knocked the Christmas tree over but I was so happy. That was one of my fondest memories was having a bicycle. CB: Did you guys ride around the neighborhood? AB: Yeah. Oh, you did not ride too far away. So our parents were like I am today and a lot of other people need to be. “We are responsible for you. I need to see you and be in calling distance.”, so, you know. My mom was kind of strict but I can see why now. That probably saved us and her a lot of heartache. CB: Did you guys have a lot of friends over? AB: No. (laughing) No, they could come over if she was there and she would ask them, “Who are you?” and “What are your parents' names?”. She felt out who came over and when they left, she would either say they could come back or they can't, so CB: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? AB: I started at Anthem in the mail room actually. Then I got a license to sell. Then I was in telemarketing and I would sell individual coverage for person under a group plan. Then, I moved up to underwriting and we, uh, look at the applications, review it and the, um, the medical part of it, underwrite it up front so we could get information from doctors to determine whether or not you would be approved for insurance. And, uh, no I am here, um. I left because my mom got kind of ill. Well, she is still ill but I could not do all of that. When you are underwriting, you got to be on it because the rules and regulations and so forth. And yes, they have the law where you can take the FMLA or whatever but my husband said I could come home but I went back to work. I missed working. And I like having my own money. (chuckles) I like to have my own money. I'm just used to that. CB: Describe cultural events that happened in Roanoke. AB: Wow. Who was it that that came? P-Funk George Clinton. Yes!! I went to see him, well, the group went to see MC Hammer. I went to see, oh gosh, what's the guys name? Lionel Richie. Wow. Doug E. Fresh, Prince, well that is before he (laughing) and that is about it. We had a ball. CB: What about movies or dances? AB: I tell my first dance. I was a late bloomer. I was in high school and I was a junior. That's when I first went on my first date. (laughing) Junior year – Scared to death but, yep, that was my first date as a junior. It was at William Fleming and I think – But, uh, yeah, that's when I started being a social butterfly. CB: Who were some of your strong community leaders? AB: Wow. That I remember and not that I knew so much about them, but I just admired then from a distance. Noel C. Taylor. I admired them from a distance. I would see them as representing us in the community. Uh, Reverend Burton. CB: Where did he serve as reverend? 6 �AB: Sweet Union which is my home church. I belonged there first. Let me see. (pause) I knew the Claytors a little bit for one because they were my doctors and they went way, way back. CB: In Roanoke? AB: Yep, in Roanoke, right here in Gainsboro. Everything was right here. Noel C. Taylor was a mayor. Oh, wow. They named a school after him. I guess he lived in the '90s until he passed. He did have a church. That's about it. CB: Who were your role models? AB: Of course my mom and my dad, my Aunt Louise Bolling and I have another Aunt Norma Jean Houston who was the daughter of Louise Bolling and she did get a degree from Howard University. I think that was her first and only job. She retired from there at Howard. That was her only child too. I kind of looked up to her and I also looked up to a lady, Carla Lewis. She just retired from Gainsboro and, of course, my mom and grandmother on my mom's side. Even though she did not have a lot of education, she was a hard worker and she taught us a lot of things to do and to not to do. She used to clean up for the people over here off in Old Southwest. She used to do day work and even though she did not have a high school education, whatever, she could make something out of nothing. I mean she could wash stuff and iron stuff. She made her own starch – Argo starch out of the box and she used to mix it up or whatever. She could cook fish. She was just a a grandma. She could, um – they don't make 'em like that anymore. She would clean up after these people and they loved her. They treated her more, the kids would treat her more like, they would come to her, my grandma, before they would to their own parents. Dr. Hefner is the doctor she worked for in Southwest Roanoke and she would clean their house everyday and they loved my grandma and she would keep those clothes clean, keep those kids clean and it was just amazing. She said that when she was, I don't know, she birth or something like that. It was a bit much but she did some wonderful things. CB: How has Roanoke changed over the years? AB: Well, its changing but its a slow change. Like I remember we could not go to any of the libraries except Gainsboro so that changed. As far as in the County, there are more of us living in the County. So I think, and so just like they are building this hospital, Carillion Clinic, that's a big change. We needed that. A lot of people don't want to come back here and I can't blame her. See the world, yeah, yeah. CB: This concludes our interview. I think you for your time. AB: Your welcome. (laughing) 7 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2715/BeaneAntinette.1.jpg cadee76deae1ef17139c2b9d7b52ee9c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2715/BeaneAntinette2.1.jpg 0e4ade311d7decd54188a51d663c3433 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2715/BeaneAntinette3.jpg f6d3b0db179e96cd425897d45a0a7500 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Antinette Beane Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Antinette Beane Interviewer: C.L. Bohannon Date: 5 November 2009 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 38:42 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5 November 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Antinette Beane; C.L. Bohannon; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BeaneAntinette https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownCecil_[compressed].mp3 c8f6334baf00838f0d926812e0f64f30 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownInterview.pdf 742922e82aaf8774aadbbdc3644add1f PDF Text Text Interviewee: Cecil Brown Interviewer: Alicia Sill Transcriber: Krissy Price AS: When and where were you born? CB: Right here in Roanoke. AS: And what is your birthday? CB: March 7, 1948. AS: Ok. And how long have you lived in Roanoke? CB: 61 years AS: And just briefly what neighborhoods have you lived in? CB: I was born in northeast Roanoke and my mother lived in southwest and northeast but I stayed mostly with my grandmother, a matter of fact, she raised me and I was in the northeast most of my life. AS: Ok. Do you have brothers and sisters? CB: Yes. AS: Tell me about your parents and brothers and sisters? CB: You want to know the truth? AS: Sure CB: Never knew much about my dad. I was 22 when I found him. My mother had 6 kids by another man. It wasn't a pleasant experience for me. You know it was pretty rough. You know growing up with them you know and my mother and his children. Well he had 6 kids by her, and how extensive would you like this? AS: As extensive as you like it to be. CB: Well it was kind of rough. Well, the dad wreaked havoc on me. Drank every day. You know you come to a time when you need to speak to kids about stuff like that he wasn't one to stand. What’s it like being in a family like that? And the fighting and fussing every day. Every time no food. Trying to go to school. I went to school anyway half the time I was half asleep. I would go somewhere and get to be able to lay down somewhere and go to sleep, ‘cause I never slept at home. I didn't know whether or not he was going to kill mother, so I was up all night listening to them fussing and fighting. So by the time morning rolled around I was too tired and weak to even go to school. And you know high school and I would curl up in an open field somewhere or a wooded spot and lay down and go to sleep. �AS: Were you close to your other brother and sisters? Or no? CB: I was close to them. But my mother sent me on errands a lot. You know to pay the bills or take the bills here and there. I was gone a lot. And they saw me, but as far as having a close relationship with them I guess I had about as close as any brother would. But by being the oldest boy, you know, I did a lot of errands for my mother. Back then parents didn't tell you stuff like parents do now. You knew very little about the family matters and very little secrets. AS: So you say you were the oldest boy. Did you have older siblings or were you the oldest child of the family? CB: I have an older sister. That was, you know, they had a different father too. My mother parent us two together from babies on up. The two of us was inseparable you didn't see one without seeing the other. AS: What was your older sister's name? CB: Florine Brown and my others the six are Johnsons, and she and I are Browns. Things we did so bad on a weekend my mother would always send and my sister down to our grandmother's in northeast to protect us. Because we wasn't her husband’s and when he got groggy start to drinking it wasn't a very pleasant. So she would send us every weekend I don't care how deep the snow was we would to go on to our grandmother's we would walk. The bus was seven miles. I don't care how much rain we would go to our grandmother's we would say "mama send us. We don't care. We just want out of there." AS: What was your mother's name and did she work or did she stay at home with the children? CB: Well stayed at home with the children. She had stayed at home with the kids, but he had worked. When he didn't drink it up when he got home because he did mostly day work. Laboring. I never knew too many regular jobs he had. He put a lot of fear in me. I still have dreams. AS: Do you want to share their names? CB: What my sisters and brothers? AS: Well your mother and your father. Well, and your step-dad. CB: My dad, his name was Ray. Beautiful man when I found him. I loved him. I don't understand how parents can say our kids can say when their kids meet their parents they haven't seen in years. "you know it doesn't have anything to do with me" I don't see how they can say that. When I met Bob he tried to explain to us "you know me you don't need any explanation. I'm a grown man now you know that things don't always work out." He tried explaining how much he liked mama and so forth and so forth. Well this is a long story, but I told him you don't owe me no explanation. I love you just the way you are. Just like you are. He was an alcoholic too. Leukemia of the blood. And my mother she was a beautiful lady. She didn't play didn't play. You hear me now I go to something to whop his. I can tell you. I'm going to say this, I'm going to be frank the laws and stuff they got now to protect the kids tried �it on my mother. Let the state try to tell her how to raise her kids. She would have been in jail a lot of times. But she didn't play. She loved us to death, and we knew it. She was a beautiful woman. AS: What was her name? CB: Lillian Brown Johnson AS: Lillian? CB: When I was 17, I had my first job at 15, excuse me 16. I was staying with my grandmother for a little while, and I had gotten off from work. Downtown you know caught a bus and got out at downtown you can walk to northeast. And I saw a man on the market that was a friend of the family’s he said, " Cecil or Duke. That’s what they call me. Your mother's sick she wants you. She's been asking for you all day. You better go on up there and see what she wants. She's got something really important to tell you." Well I didn't go I went on to my grandmother's. So when I got into my grandmother's, I saw my grandmother crying. I had never heard her cry before. I mean balling and crying. And she told me mama's dead. I said,” dead" then I got numb. So, yes somebody poisoned her killed her she laid across the bed and died in the house and I didn't get there, I should have went there. When he first told me, but I should have went. Whatever she had to tell me died with her. Terrible very terrible. AS: So after that you lived with your grandmother? CB: Yes me and my sister. My sisters and brother the other sisters went to a foster home, and separated. And, but they was separated before mama died. Things were so bad that the neighbors complained and the state came and took my mother's kids and put them in foster homes. Me and my sister went to my grandmother's. AS: So did your grandma just not take care of all the eight of them? CB: She already had eight in the house. I knew they locked them up, put them in jail. Mama's getting a check, a welfare check for me and my sister because we wasn't there. Maybe I'm getting too personal because we wasn't there we wasn't here. She was taking that little check from us and try to stretch it through the whole family. Which was $65 a month, and it had no welfare, well it had welfare, but you couldn't get food stamps and stuff like they do now. It's always a struggle. AS: Tell me about your grandma? What was her name? CB: I could have brought you some stuff on her. She made the paper after we left northeast we moved onto Shenandoah right beside Coca-Cola. It was two houses on each side and the Amtrak. My sister got all the articles in the paper about how she would feed the hobos when they got off the trains. Sometimes she let them sleep in the hall. Beautiful lady, cooked every day, that’s why I don't like the stuff about women “I worked all day I can't cook". Don't hand me that, ‘I can't cook, I work every day’. My grandmother worked every day, come home and worked, make a fire, she wouldn't let anyone make a fire in the kitchen stove, but her. Make bread every day, biscuits, and then cook. This was every day far as I can remember. On Sunday morning she would make her rolls. She would get up at 2 o'clock she �called me ‘old man’ and say, "I need you to go to the store and get my yeast to cook my bread." I said, "Yes ma'am". Would have to cut wood for the stove. She would get up at 2 in the morning fix it up so that it would rise. And people would come from miles just to get one of her rolls. That was one of the most beautiful women that God could have given a grandson. AS: What was her name? CB: Ethel Brown, little, short woman. AS: What did she do for a living? You said she worked. CB: She did day work. AS: Is that like going into people's houses? CB: Yeah she worked for Ms. Murray. Well he owned Murray Meats. It used to be here on 24th Street moved downtown into the market. She raised them, the white family, she worked for them for about 30-35 years. Beautiful lady. She died in 1986. She was born in 1898. I used to talk to her a lot always when I talk to kids it's now, when you can reason with them, always tell them, "well who was this lady?" "Oh Mr. Brown it's my grandmother” I said get to know her, beyond the title. Talk to her. Ask her questions, ask her what she was like as a child, ask her how was growing up the things she do. I mean we take our grandparents and parents for granted. They were children once. They're people. Get to know them. I used to do it to my grandmother. "What were you like as a child?" You know, just by herself, just me and her. She'd tell me stuff like that. AS: How did your family end up coming to Roanoke? Was your grandma from Roanoke? Was she born here? CB: No she was born in Bedford County a place called Goode, Virginia. Far as I know one day I'm going to go down there and investigate and check around and see if I have any kin people. Because I don't know any Browns I'm kin to around Roanoke. Then she moved to Southwest before I was born where she raised my mother and my aunts and she had one son. I never knew my granddaddy. He died when her last child was born in 1926. AS: So did they move here for... so they could have jobs? Is that probably why they moved here? CB: He was working on the streetcars. Something like that she was telling, I think. So you know they moved here, but as far as I know… AS: But you never went out to Bedford to visit family. She never, your grandmother, never mentioned stuff like that? CB: Well, see we didn't ask questions like that when we were small, because you don't think about it. �AS: Describe your grandmother's house for us since the Northeast is no longer...well it's where the civic center is right? So can you describe your house for us? For instance was it brick, did you have a garden out back, and did you have a front porch? CB: It was brick. On 10th Avenue it was a wooden house. No lights; she had a lamp. The water hiding, she called it the hiding, was out in the backyard. The faucet, we had to go out and the outhouse. It’s where I grew up and 3rd Street we left there and I guess I lived there, I remember, 5 years. I guess about 5 years old when I left. Moved to 3rd Street that didn't have any electric light. Left there when I was eighteen and moved onto 7th Avenue up until the time they moved us out. But on 7th Avenue the house was brick, had five or six rooms. When you come in and she always had a table statue of Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior on the table. Sometimes my uncle, he only drank on the weekends, a beautiful man never said two words to you in a weekday, but on the weekends he was ready to play because he had a few cluckers in him. I guess it's alright to say that, but I say this in a sense they were good people. He would come in and I remember I used to lay in the bed scared that that statue would break ‘cause he would stagger up against that table, and I would see the statue rock like it was going to fall. You know it was ceramic so it would break into a bunch of pieces, but it never would fall for years. Her bedroom was in the middle room; you would think she was asleep but she never slept. And sometimes I would get up and go across the hill with my boys 14 and 15. They said, "Duke, we never heard you curse man. You hang around with us but you don't curse, you don't drink, you don't smoke, you ain't a saint. You don't go to church. How you do it?." I never paid any attention to it that's why I tell the children you don't have to compromise to be recognized. Be yourself. You don't know who you can influence. I didn't know there was a ???. The best year of my life was then. Now that's how I started to get into music. But you want me to continue on about my grandmother or what? AS: You can...sure tell me how...well how did you get the nickname Duke? CB: I don't know, they started calling me Duke. AS: And how did you get involved in music? CB: I always wanted to sing, ever since I can remember, since I was about 8 or 9. I remember when I was about 8 or 9 and I would put a stick in the alley and pretend it was a microphone in, you know, my imagination. Something kids don't use anymore; their God given imagination. And act it out in my mind how I would act on stage. I had no musical knowledge didn't know music no… Back then you had to have showmanship when you hit the stage. You couldn't just sing. If you were black you had to have showmanship. By the time I was 13 or14 I was going up to the Star City on Henry Street. AS: The Star City Auditorium? CB: Yes AS: OK CB: The Star had up on Henry Street. That's where all the singers came. Everybody that was somebody was there. How they tore it down, I don't know. It was an icon. There is where I met some of the most �famous black singers of all time. That's where I met the great James Brown. I'll tell you how I met him. I used to go up to the...Jackie Wilson was my man. His vocal range was awesome and his showmanship was awesome. And I remember meeting him twice. I was standing in front of the Star City, ain’t no back door, and wait until they come, and my boys would say, “Duke I know you ain't going up to Jackie Wilson are you?” We never had money to get in there so, “you watch me”. I said, “Mr. Wilson I need to study you tonight. I got to find out how you do things. I've been studying you for”...he would be on the Ed Sullivan show. I said, “but now I get to meet you in personal. I don't have any money to get in.” He said, “You just grab my suits and put them on your back and you follow me. You don't need no money.” It's amazing I didn't have cameras, camcorders then to record and tape all of this. You couldn't, at a kid of 13 years old meeting somebody you have admired, who had recorded. I had his record. You I have recorded and had his records just treating you like a friend. It was awesome. AS: So he let you come into the Star City Auditorium and listen to him? CB: Yes AS: And he gave you his suits so you would be kind of working for him and that's how you got in? CB: Right. Well I could have walked in with him with nobody saying anything. But he wanted to kind of honor me in a way. He didn't want to make me feel bad. It was just his way of letting me help him to feel, you know, thought of. And I'm laughing at my boys, and they're shaking their heads. How does he do it? Because I had a desire. I hadn't met James Brown then. We used to have gangs on our street in the summertime. Summertime lasted forever. It wasn’t like the children today. We would never sit in the house. Our parents wouldn’t let us, they would run you out. Get on outside and play. So we would use our imagination and play games. I heard these girls talking about James Brown on the street. I said James Brown we were saying. We had a game who’s the best singer? I said “Jackie Wilson”. They said no Duke he might be the best singer, but James Brown got him in show business. I couldn't believe it. I said no you got to be wrong. Here I am ‘Mr. It’. I know more about music then anybody in this neighborhood. How come I haven't heard of a James Brown? Well a guy with my oldest cousin who came down from New York, and he had a live album of James Brown Live at the Apollo 1962. And he played it. This was the first time I heard James Brown. I heard the excitement on the album. But lo and behold a month later, he was coming to Roanoke. Back then they didn't have advertisements on TV like they do now. They put out posters in the black neighborhood of the singers coming. They'd tack them on trees and in the store windows or wherever. On the posters just had an upper torso of James Brown like this. No action shots. I told my boys I said man this guy couldn't be that tough. Let's go on by and see him. We got dressed and I was 14 years old now. We walked up behind Hotel Roanoke it was on the street behind Hotel Roanoke where the light going across 1st Street bridge, that’s where the Star City was at. When I got to the block where the church is over there I said I feel like someone is fighting up there. Look at all them people. Somebody must had a wreck or something. So we walked up it was a line coming down Wells Avenue, a line going up Wells Avenue, a line coming down Gilmore, coming up. And white people didn't come across Henry Street Bridge at night because of the racism. It was a lot of whites coming from Henry Street bridge. I shook my head as to who is this guy that I have not heard about and yet everybody else had? When I got up to the Star City they had two doors before the �box office one on this side one on that side. He had his bodyguards blocking the doors, Brown, but they had the doors open cause it was summertime. There was no air conditioning they just had the windows up and fans. I guess it would hold about 3,000 people it had balconies. I looked through the doors I liked to fainted. I hadn't seen, Brown hadn't come out yet. The band was playing, but I had never seen no orchestra. I had seen bands, but I never seen an orchestra. He had an 18 piece orchestra. Four piece horn section on this side and four piece horn section on that side and two drums. I said who is this guy? Still no money to get in. We always had ways to slip in. But this particular night, they had all our ways covered. We couldn’t get in. I said Charles I gotta find a way to get in. He said man you crazy you can't get in there. In the front was a wall about as wide as half of this table about 5 feet high, and they had a screen about that long, but they the windows open inside for the screen. I said boost me up. He said what you gonna do. I said never mind boost me up. I'm going to kick this screen in and I'm going in. He said man you gonna get caught. You crazy. I said just get me on the wall. He got me on the wall. James Brown had a lady with a table like this the wall is behind me. She selling pictures and albums of James Brown. But they had crates stacked up against the wall. I kicked the screen in and she never looked around. So much commotion, the band's playing, a lot of people in there on the floor dancing, on the balconies talking. I jumped down on the one set of crates, she never looked. I jumped down on the second layer, she never looked. I jumped down on the floor. Once you get in they won't chase you ‘cause they don't want you to leave. So I went around and mingled with the crowd. Told my boys, so long. I was in. They said, how’s this guy do it. He mentioned they got in too. But when the man said show time are you ready Mr. Dynamite. He would come out, the man that gives you “Please, please, please”, “I don't mind”, “I'll go crazy”, “Night Train”, ladies and gentlemen the star of the show James Brown Famous Flames. They had two dressing rooms one on each side of the stage. The flames came on one side and James Brown came on the other. When he came on he came on like he was riding on skates, on one leg. Bam and precision to the microphone. When he raised his hand stopped. They better not make a mistake, a mistake, $50 fine, the next, you fired. He was very strict. All his instrument players and band members had sharkskin suits and polished shoes. Your shoes weren't shine you was fired. The next time you were fired. Brown didn't play. He do a lot. I got a tape at home that took me 40 years to find that he did a show when in California he did the same show one month when he left the Star City. If you'd see this tape you would see what I'm talking about. But after he came out I went back. I shook my head I said they was right, Jackie Wilson cannot touch his showmanship. Then I took the moves of Jackie Wilson and the moves of James Brown and combined them. I kept practicing. I kept practicing. Day in and day out. Night in and night out. I would practice this thing on the streets anywhere. Till I became so good in my showmanship I would take shows up at the Star City and they would beg me do not, don't take, please singers would want to take me on the road with them to teach them showmanship between sets. Because I was that good. I was just as good as Brown if you ever see this tape. I would come back people would come from all over Virginia to challenge me. They had heard about me, was no use. I don’t want to embarrass you young man. So I never tried to show off. But they all wanted to try. Back then they had duels and dancing sort of like a contest and people are around watching you and judging to see who… But they weren't no use Miss. ‘Cause none of them could touch me. I stopped Brown on stage I was dancing one time at the Salem Civic Center. I got beside him and he stopped and put his hand on his hip. When I got into gospel, back then, the church didn't go for dancing. I didn't want to sing gospel for that reason. But God called me out, so I had to go. �That is something you have to do every day. Is practice your dancing, every day. But the church didn't allow dancing. My being so naive then, I was thinking it was a sin. I had to wrestle with God for years for not dancing. I couldn't understand why he wouldn't want me to dance. That was the old saying of the church that was pumping that stuff in my head. I still can do a lot at 61. But you should have seen me at 25, 24,20,15,19. I would be singing through the streets and they was man, shut that noise up at night. I said you going to hear from me. I would always tell them that. One day you're going to hear from me. I formed my first group, this was in 1971. My first gig was a talent show at the YWCA on Orange Avenue. Bands were like gangs in Roanoke. No band liked another band ‘cause they were rivals. There were a lot of bands here in Roanoke. We had a lot of black culture in 60s and 70s. A tremendous amount. All in the parks in the summer time you'd hear bands. This particular time was a band of some friends of mine was doing a social at the YWCA the band. I asked Joe, a friend of mine, Joe Pimp. I said, Joe I have a group me and him were starting a group at the same time. He got his before mine. I said How about playing three songs, and let me get some exposure. He said I don't know Duke. He said I'm with it, but you got to talk to the other musicians. They go for it I'm for it. So we had a little powwow. This one didn't like that one. I had one of the members from Calloway these two was from another band. The band that was playing down there that night. But me and Russ we started the group and well, they had fired these two. Well, he was still there Larry was still there. Larry didn't like Calloway, so Larry said man I ain't with it. I said why. He said because you got him in your group. I don't like him. I said well if you can't play for him you play for us ‘cause one for all and all for one, three musketeers. AS: How old were you in this picture? CB: 24 AS: And that was your first band? CB: Yes AS: So you were 24 when you started your first band? CB: Yeah. I was 24 and I didn't know music. I had danced and sung, but I had never been with a band. AS: So you never read music, like sheet music or anything like that? You just learned it. CB: Yeah. I just learned it by hear. AS: Did you take music lessons ever? CB: No AS: Or did you...were you in the band in school? CB: No AS: Did they have band in school? CB: Yeah �AS: They did? CB: They had bands. They had music in school, but I... AS: You didn't want to join that? CB: I didn't know. They didn't just have music. They had band over at Addison. But the way I was living I had so much time. The way I dressed back then, you know, people think it was funny. I didn't even get in nothing. I didn't even like school. I hated it. Simply because of the people more so then the lessons. If I could...If we had...If I could go to school like people go to school now I would have finished. Get up out of bed and gone to school. I couldn't do that. You had to have clothes and shoes. I didn't have that. Shame stayed with me a long time. I was ashamed of everything. Ashamed of myself, ashamed of the way I was living, ashamed of my mother and dad, ashamed of my brothers and sisters, ashamed. The only way I didn't feel ashamed was when I was with my grandmother. It was two different worlds. But getting back to the music… He said ok Duke they agreed to do three songs for us. I said oh boy then we can move on. But I had a girl in Vinton, Lucy Brown. All the shows at Star City showed me what a stage dress, how important it was. I had a girl in Vinton telling me all our clothes all our costumes, suits. That band didn't know this. They thought they could use us a warm up group. I did three songs, but it took me one month to do these three songs, to practice them in my head. Choreography every song. Something they didn't have. I learned from Brown, Wilson, and Temptations when they came up to Star City. When they called us to do the three songs and we came on in one of the rooms in the Y dressed costumes, polished. It blew their minds. When we did the three songs words got around that there was a new group in town. But I still had no band, remember. Still trying to get the exposure. A week later word got out that there was a band in Northwest that had just graduated together they had graduated together in music from college, but they had no singers. They wanted to collaborate, so we collaborated and got together. My second gig was the Civic Center. My third gig was the Star City Auditorium. Where I met all the singers. You talking about somebody elated. All the clubs in Roanoke, the word had gotten around so fast and then I started traveling all over Virginia. After 4 years the band decided they wanted to be a boogie band. They didn't want singers anymore. I said well Spike ain't nobody gonna come out and see no band playing. The women want to see men up front and the women are going to bring the men in. I saw him seven years later. He said Duke you were so far ahead of us. I didn't even know it. You was so far ahead of the time. You said you tried to tell me. I didn’t. I couldn't see your vision then. He said if we had stayed together look how popular we would have been. In the meantime well that's when i got into gospel to keep my vocals going. Until I got my band back together. But I never got them back. I was traveling and sometimes we would sing. Our vocal harmony was so tough we didn't need music. We'd take a show in a minute just walking up to clubs and tell the manager who you got coming in tonight? He said well I have some person, and I would say you're wasting your money ‘cause anything you bring in here will blow off the stage. You had to talk like that to promote yourself. Who do you think you is? We would take shows, gospel as well as soul. That's how tough our vocal structure was. This is the guy that got me into gospel. AS: What’s his name? �CB: Pete Brown. And this is my cousin. He owns a recording studio. AS: What’s his name? CB: Barry Grey. His mom and my dad is sister and brother. They rehearsed over there at night, in fact, I’m going over there tonight. This is Franky. He sung, so he was singing all of his life. This is Lawrence Harley he was born in Northeast too. He's a pastor. This is Franky he was the bass player. He's a pastor at his own church. This is Bam-Bam He plays drums. This is our dad right there. This is Sam, that's his brother. He plays bass. This is Blake and he plays keyboard. This is John. He died the next year; he plays lead guitar. And this is us standing in front of my mother’s church. AS: Do you know the name of the church? CB: Emanuel. I think its Emanuel Church, but I'm still affiliated with these guys. We sing all the time. I don't sing with the group anymore, but I get together like this Sunday I'm going to sing up here at Forest Park Baptist Church. I'll probably bring Lewis, myself, Pete, and Franky, and do something a capella singing with them. AS: What was the name of this first band? CB: The Love Men AS: The Love Men and who came up with that? CB: Calloway. And Larry he still sings and plays, he's a minister of his own church. Russell he's still around. Russ after the group broke up he became disillusioned. He never sung again. AS: What was it like playing at the Star City Auditorium? Was it the happiest minute of your life? CB: Yes. ‘Cause I saw the Star. I always wanted to play it before they tore it down. We played it, guys were running up and down Henry Street talking about this new group that's down in Star City. Man they thought we were the Chi-Lites. Chi-Lites! Now we wasn't the Chi-Lites. We just a local band. But I never saw I cared less about the money. I never got any of that. I just wanted to do it. I always tell children now get off the computer, get off your games. God gave you hidden talents and he wants you to discover them. You can't do that locked in something mechanical. Someone later, you ever heard of Frankenstein? He tried to create a monster. The monster took him over. That’s the same thing with these mechanical technological toys. They take over the kids after a while. The kids can't do nothing. It controls the children. I said, God can tell you where your talents his young man, but when you come downstairs on Christmas and look under the tree you have to discover what toys your mother bought you and you surprised when you find out what they got you. The same way with your talents. He wants you to discover them, so you can be surprised when you find them. How can you find them locked into something like that? And not only that you lose your social skills when you're locked into stuff like that. I worked in the after school program, I would tell them put the Gameboys up young man. Oh Mr. Brown! I said put it up! We gonna do something skillful. We gonna do something creative. We going to found out what you can do or what's in you. You may have some gift to give to the world and �don't know it. And their mothers would go who is this Mr. Brown who is such an influence on my child? And I would laugh. And they said when I get home all they talk about is Mr. Brown taught me... I love the children it's something you have to do to love. Our parents didn’t play with us. Now when I say this, I'm not saying it from a racist point of view because there is not a racist bone in my body. Integration came too soon for Roanoke. It was not ready for it. The white schools could not deal with the black kids. The black kids couldn't adjust. The black parents, the black neighborhoods raised them a certain way. They didn't reason with you. White kids like to reason. White people like to reason. And you start to reason one time, they tell you look I'm telling you don't do this anymore, you do it you'll pay the consequences. If they promised you a whopping you got it. There ain't no such thing as you can't reason your way out of it. That was the way we raised our children. Anybody in the neighborhood anybody's mother could whoop you in the neighborhood cause you doing wrong. But then when they start integrating schools here the black kids and the laws came out that's when they became wild. Because there was nobody to keep them in line. Even the teachers could be strict with you and hope to God they wouldn't tell your mama. Even teachers, they had their own way of dealing with the children and the children understood it. But now, you know, I look at the black kids and I love them you know I'm just saying, in the projects and stuff...like they're so wild and uncontrolled and unruly and their future is shot already. Their children can't have them future because they didn't have a head start. My mother...my last whooping when I was 15 years old. One day my mother said Happy, she called me Happy, come here. I said yes ma'am. She said you go to school today? I said yes ma'am. Ok She said truant officer had been by here. They used to look for you then. The teachers hadn't seen you. You said you went. But they said you haven't. She said I'm going to ask you one more time, did you go to school today? I said no ma’am... go on up there and break them. That's another reason I learned to dance so good. They didn't whip clothes, and you'd dance across the floor like James Brown. And they're going to tell you be still when I'm whooping you! Boy be still. I'm telling you. You're running from huh? No ma'am! They was just as tired as you were when they finished. But they got the point across and they loved us to death. It's in the scriptures. I was there reading Proverbs the other day where it says King Solomon said He that spare the rod on his child hates his child, does not love him. And then it goes on loves his child spare not the rod, because by doing so you keep the soul from hell. All this stuff about...there is a difference between a whooping and a beating. We got whoopings we didn't get beatings. After it was over, Mama sometimes was mean and I’d say, Lord, what that woman want now? Lord have mercy. Sometimes she would say was just calling you to look at your eyes. She got a lot of whooping from her stepdad because of me because he must have known she was still in love with my dad. It was...and now when rap and hip-hop came out killed everything. It killed the bands. That's the biggest that I tell them to their face too. That’s the biggest ... that's the biggest illusion of what music is supposed to be about. In the Black history of music all of it was commercial in two years’ time you can't remember one song they made. But I heard them all. The songs of Marvin Gaye, James Brown, Jackie Wilson, Al Greene, Percy Sledge. (interruption) I learned, Otis Redding pulled me in the dressing room on a rope, as a matter of fact. I knocked on his dressing room in the alley and got me a rope and a ladder from the boys. No money to get in. It didn’t cost but $2.50 to see this superstar. And he was drinking pint of red liquor, I’ll never forget it. I said, come on man come on give me a hand. We come walking into the dressing room. Everybody now where did they come from? I met some singers princess. I met some singers. �AS: Was there an age limit for the Star City Auditorium or if you could buy the ticket then you could go in? CB: Yeah. They had a box there like the movies do right in front. AS: Ok so you weren't like it wasn't like you were only nine years old so you weren't allowed to go? CB: Oh no. You can you hang up on the yard and get in. You can get in nobody care ‘cause see everybody look out after you. You see what I'm saying? Like now see AS: Was the Star City Auditorium was it mostly black entertainers or would white community come to it? CB: There was no integration it was just black. Sometimes a few whites would come out. AS: For like the James Brown show? CB: correct AS: But not typically? CB: Right. In 1963 they had this. They showed James Brown in film down at the Market Theater. There they had just start letting blacks come into the American Theater. White theater downtown. Took me 40 years to find this. The first time they see all the was called the Chitlin Circuit. AS: What does that mean? CB: That means they were doing one nighters. AS:Ok CB: You know they would leave there that night and go to Martinsville leave Martinsville, then they would hit all these little counties and places, you know, in a day's time and sometimes Brown would two shows, two places in one day it was call the Chitlin Circuit. They didn't fly from here to there or live in a hotel then plush like they do now. Man what I to see this generation with what they call entertainment. It's sickening. You hear me. It is absolutely sickening. But any way what I'm trying to say is when Brown was at the Auditorium to film this with the Rolling Stones. I got Mick Jagger, the first time he came. Whites were signing James Brown. If you see this tape you would know everything I'm telling you is on this tape. Whites had never seen Brown. When he hit that stage they went wild. Almost all white girls. ‘Cause when they sung at a white place where whites and blacks could go there they would have a rope where all the whites on this side and all the blacks on this side. They would draw the line. It was terrible. But anyway move on. What questions do you got now? AS: You mentioned, Henry Street. I've heard a lot of people talk about Kiser's Record Shop. CB: Oh yeah. AS: Would you go in there sometimes? �CB: I was in there all of the time. AS: Did you like...was it Napoleon and Louise is that their names? CB: Mr. Kiser was always had his little white bucks on, looked like Pat Boone. Tall man. Never raised his voice, but he wouldn't let you touch his records. Sometime I go you know he would have these little boxes that he would put his records in and like pigeon holes on both sides of the shop. I would go in and I can't have you touching my records now. Then he would straighten them up and let’s not touch the records now. Me not having the money to buy a record. I said Mr. Kiser I heard you got a new record by Otis Redding or something like James Brown. Can I hear just a little bit of it? I won't tell him I ain’t gonna buy it, ‘cause if he know you ain't going to buy it, he won’t play it. But all the singers when they came to the Star City first they would go over to Kiser's record to shop. So I'd tried to catch over there and talk to them. But yes Kiser's, you had The Room down on the corner and then you had Eric's Lounge that was another club. Eric's Lounge and The Room was run by brothers, the Cabblers. They was always businessmen in the city. Beautiful family. Their father raised them that way. They never worked for anybody else. They was always a close family, business family. Then you had all your restaurants on this street and your hotels and where they stayed, Dumas Hotel right there. Everything. It was, man I'm telling you. I never thought they would I don't see how those who went to school for political science and those who claim to be a politically inclined for, what you may call black history allowed that to be tore down. It is the icon the history of Roanoke, the black Roanoke. Everything there represents what black people was like. When you hit Henry Street that and the hot dog stand, Johnny, was a white guy served, older men. AS: Is this at the Roanoke Wiener Stand? Is that what you're talking about? CB: Yeah AS: Ok CB: We go in there, and charge him nothin’. I remember him young kid next. Used to work in the in one of the restaurants on Henry Street. At Nicks. I would go in there sometimes with older people, and Nicks is some restaurant??? We hung in Charlie's cause he was down to earth. Nick was sort of like a Greek, and the key is you know they had an ABC license. So you know they didn't like kids hanging around in there. But sometimes I go on in there and Charlie would be in there. You know cooking, frying pork chops giving out pig feet and stuff like that. Which I want to go back to. My friend...My friend remember him in Nick's. He charge him nothing. He would give me two, three hot dogs every time I go in there and. AS: That's nice CB: Yes it is, but it's...I could talk all day long. He got to come in, so. AS: I'm going to ask you just a couple of questions, a couple more questions and then we can finish up here. Besides signing, did you get paid to sing or did you have other jobs in addition? Did you have to work other jobs too? �CB: All of us had other jobs, but we got paid. AS: Ok and what other kind of work did you do? CB: I did janitorial work all my life. Worked in daycare I always worked where children were. Daycare, afterschool, Salem Prep School, Raleigh Court Presbyterian Church. I never had a birthday party in my life except at Raleigh Court Presbyterian Church Daycare. I was doing my work one day and one of the teachers said Mr. Brown would you come to room B. I went over there. All the kids said Happy Birthday Mr. Brown. I couldn't believe it. I never had a birthday party in my life, but they loved Mr. Brown, gave me gifts. AS: How old were you? Do you remember? CB: Yeah it was about 10 years ago. AS: Aw that's nice. CB: Everywhere I went worked at the YWCA. I worked with kids every day from Fort Lewis and Salem, G.W. Carver, South Salem, East Salem, West Salem, Brambleton, and none like Mr. Brown. I worked at the daycare at First Church of Nazarene Southwest, Southeast, worked down there in Vinton, and worked with the kids at after school programs. AS: So you helped with the after school programs? CB: Yes AS: Do you teach the kids signing? CB: I made a...I wrote a song for the children. Every day I would come in and Mr. Brown! Mr. Brown sing this song for us. Sing this song for us! And I would sing and in the song is...well let me sing a little bit for you. AS: Please do. CB: Children everywhere take a moment to share in this emergency alright that was my introduction. Some people can be cruel children don't be a fool it's reality Johnny used to play all alone everyday playing through some trees. But someone with a plan lead him home by the hand that's why Johnny's gone. Beat. Children don't go out with a stranger, there could be danger, lurking every step of the way with things like candy and money a stranger could lure you away, away the children they are still missing, still missing, still missing. This is where I would get the kids to join and help me. I would have the boys on this side and the girls on this side, and I would give them where oh where oh where. I would have the girls sing M-I-S-S-I-N-G and I'd have the boys say find a clue to set them free. Everybody would join in together. Every day would be Mr. Brown sing this song. So Lord lead me to put it on...I'm gonna put it on a CD. I miss singing....then there is another part. Never walk alone when you are too far from home walking through some trees �someone with a plan may lead you on by the hand And so on, and so on. And when I get to the girls that’s not too long ago when there's someone's daughter I know, failed to be aware. Now all that's left of her is a memory in time and ribbons from her hair. Children don't go looking for danger. There is a stranger just might turn your blue sky to grey. And so forth. I love the children. I always tell them don't think y'all can fool me. Don’t think you can trick me, ‘cause I know kids. Right then they go to laughing. But basically that's the song. I wrote quite a few songs. AS: Well that's probably a good place for us to close on, but thank you for sharing your voice with us, and thank you for sharing your story with us. CB: You're welcome princess AS: Alright CB: You're welcome anytime AS: Thank you � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownCecil1.jpg 5767a33963cc8d4cec8080debe9dddf5 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownCecil2.jpg 9eb94c563c8f9e21f43acb08494d2ea9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownCecil3.jpg 2c1daf8d64df2a6ee92c2ce2f962bf75 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownCecil4.tif b6778ee012805ecd23c20c7dd6274ffd https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2714/BrownCecil5.jpg 27073f2f1e39e8175abe3668961e68a2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Cecil "Duke" Brown Subject The topic of the resource Northeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Cecil "Duke" Brown Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 25 June 2009 Location: Melrose Branch Library Total Duration: 55:07 Transcription prepared by: Krissy Price Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 25 June 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cecil "Duke" Brown; Alicia Sell, Krissy Price Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownCecil https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller_[compressed].mp3 8edfeb74797182b4919a02bbc1ab82b4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller.jpg 27f0a3ccb3eb8b2ebc68d9a2a8c038aa https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller2.jpg b123a3348bfb22ab3c4b1e8b4091b50d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller3.jpg 4830d4799dc430b15ebcf33283a47ea5 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller4.jpg 5a864f80db69706724281524f0049d0b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller5.tif 2e2ad678417ccef932d3f23ee9e7b67b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller6.jpg 77776950b0a83b2b3a92ce90ff5bc013 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller7.jpg 9e89bd564fe4971f526f295abb361395 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller9.jpg c7c2c87d4e6d780db40ce137852a51cb https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller10.jpg dd876820c5ba7beea0823702036d8ce6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller11.jpg 853128e4a165686114821f1db1ba1467 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/SCLC_Youth_Day_Article.pdf 28029bc4ff2f82e9b5812da0392c69f1 PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-WilsonPerneller8.1.jpg 406128e408dda36f9b5bedcf781ee52a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2713/Chubb-Wilson_Perneller_Oral_Histories.pdf b2cc8fcbf26e8f8ee81b5c529f7d8cf5 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Perneller Chubb-Wilson Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Dorian Meekins CL: Goodmorning. My name is Carla Mathis Lewis and today I am interviewing Perneller Maurice Chubb-Wilson. We are interviewing at the Gainsboro Branch of the Roanoke Public Library System located 15 Patten Ave, Northwest. We’re getting started and good morning again. Mrs. Wilson, where were you born? PW: December 6, 1933 at Roanoke, Virginia at old Burrell Memorial Hospital. The old one which was an academy long years ago. CL: Okay. And how long have you lived in Roanoke, Virginia in the Gilmer Ave area, Gainsboro. PW: Well, I guess I moved out of this area– I used to live on Chestnut Ave, 519 Chestnut until I got married. My husband was in the military so I went away to Camp Pendleton for a while and after I seen a couple rattlesnakes and I had my baby in the Army, you go to the kitchen sink, there was one. I got back home– on the bus and hopped right back home. So I told my husband it wasn’t worth me staying down there ‘cause I was– I’m scared to death of a snake. I’ve been here ever since. Of course I travel to see my children; they live in Richmond and Georgia and my granddaughter was in Florida so I go to visit them quite often. CL: Can you tell me the names of our children? PW: Oh I have seven children. Dennis Wenbush. Denise Wenbush. Deborah Washington now and Diane Bestila (??), she lives in Dallas, Georgia. Diana Bonds, she works at the Veterans Administration. Robert Wilson Jr., he lives in Richmond, he’s a builder. Loved to put on decks and stuff like that. My baby girl is security at Delta Airlines and I forgot to tell [you], my son works for– I cannot– Well it’s government work. I guess it’s alright for me to say it; he’s with Homeland Security. Denise is out of work right now. She was a manager at Goody’s and she was the manager of ‘ol Hieronimus long years ago and then she went to Goody’s. And Deborah works in surgery at Carilion Hospital now. CL: And when you were in Roanoke– well you’re still in Roanoke, but when you grew up, did you grow up on Madison Ave? Any other street you lived on? PW: I lived on Chestnut Ave and that’s where I was. CL: Chestnut. PW: Oh, before then, I was born on 5th Ave right up the street here, next to the Hale family. [Of] course I don’t remember that. Then my parents moved to 842 7th Ave, that’s the deadend of Rutherford Ave, and from there we moved to 519 Chestnut Ave. And I got married and I used to live [at] 839 Gainsboro Rd. That was my first husband and lived there for about– Off and on because he was in the Marine Corps, my first husband was. And after we divorced, [it] took me about four or five years before I even thought about getting married again, didn’t want no more. I met the most wonderful husband anybody could have asked for was Robert Wilson. He took me and my four children and so I guess that’s why I haven’t married anyone since then because I �guess I’m comparing him with everybody else and he’s been dead 33 years. Will be next month, July the 22nd. But I moved there from 807 Star Ave, I used to live, to 1020– to 1120 10th Street from 1120– 1110 rather, 10th Street to 1206 Melrose. From Melrose to where I am now and been there ever since 1971 to 3045 Willow Road. CL: Tell me about your parents and also your siblings. PW: I had great parents, [but] very strict. I always said if child abuse was in order now, back there then my momma sure would be the first one in prison. My daddy never did believe in it, but momma was the disciplinary in my family. My daddy said he never wanted to whip any child because [of] the way his daddy used to whip him. Y’know, back in the day they used to tie them and beat them and he said if he ever had a child he would never ever whip a child of his. And one day Richard and I did something real bad, I done forgot what it is now, but he cried and I remember momma said “You ain’t nothin’ but old chicken shit now.” Because he didn’t want to whip us at all about anything. But she never broke our arm, she never broke our leg, but my tail was sure worn out with them switches. CL: And your sisters and brothers? Did you have sisters and–? PW: I had one sister and one brother and I’m the oldest. Richard graduated from Western Kentucky University with a masters degree with honors and that was during the time that him and his wife received that recognition. I went to Kentucky, my mother and I, and he was– they were the only two blacks there at that time. It was predominantly white and they [had] come up that close. I was very proud of both of them. And then my sister– both of them in demonstration during college years. Many of them [were] in Bluefield and they picketted and demonstrated up there and then she was– after she got her B.S. degree, she went to a very– where you see even more racism, at UVA. I don’t want to discuss her point of view of it, but it wasn’t easy for black people to go to predominantly white colleges at the time. And I have seven children and 19 grandchildren, I lost one. Nine grandsons and nine granddaughters, but I lost a granddaughter. And I have ten great grandchildren. CL: And do you have extended family? PW: Oh Lord yes, everybody calls me Mama P, Mama Wilson, whatever. It’s okay with me. I’m glad to know they love me that much, but I get on all of them see– Y’know, back in the day, everybody raised everybody’s children. When you speak to the child– Mrs. Burkes or Mrs. Paige or Mrs. Hayes spoke to me and if I got kinda pouty or turned my nose, it wasn’t nothing for them [to] tap you on that butt and tell your momma they did it. And my momma did the same thing, but I think James and Beverly Burkes, my mother would watch those two boys. We grew up more like brothers and sisters back in the day because they would stay down at my house and they would– we would go up there and stay when my momma was working. Back then the people helped each other quite a bit. When one was working, the other one working, we would go there and stay. And y’know, looked like [they] had plenty of food for everybody– I guess they had gardens, y’know, and everybody had their plum tree, cherry tree, peach tree, and all that back then. You don’t see people growing anything like that now. �CL: Describe the kind of house you grew up in. Was it a brick house, a wood house, had a garden? PW: No, it was a weatherboard house on Rutherford Ave which they call 7th Ave. It was a nice house, but it was a weatherboard house. And then I left there and we went to another weatherboard house that was on Chestnut. And when I was living in the house on 10th Street which we was renting at the time, my husband and I, it was brick. And then we went to Melrose and rent[ed] that house and it was weatherboarded. Where I am now, we bought that, and it’s brick, two story brick and I’m living in that old big house most of the time by myself because I had seven children and we needed that bigger house. So I’m still there. CL: You elaborated a little bit on the fruit trees and all kinds of– did you all make jelly from the fruit trees or jam? PW: Oh momma did, my mother did. CL: Or did you have a garden? PW: Yeah my daddy did and I used to steal everything I could get out of it. I loved tomatoes when I was a little girl and to make tomato sandwiches. [We] had a lot of it and lettuce and I would go down there and get my lil’ ‘ol red one and wipe it off on my dress and I would get a whippin’ because the dress was dirty ‘cause momma knew I was doing something I didn’t have no business [doing]. And I would go down there– I was eating those tomatoes when they were ripe, y’know, I had my little salt and pepper things. Y’know how you steal things when you were a child. [I’d] go down there and slice it and eat my tomatoes and lettuce. [I] just like it like that, still do right today. I do, I love homegrown tomatoes. My daddy always said “Well these rabbits sure are–” I said “Daddy, those rabbits are really eating up your tomatoes, you’re gonna have to do something about it.” And one day he came home a little earlier and he caught me down there. He said “Now I know who the rabbits are”, he said “Now you know I don’t like to whip you, but you[‘re] gon be on punishment. You will not get in the ice cream this Sunday after church.” ‘Cause then we had the Roanoke Dairy and oh it was the best ice cream for six cents a cone. So I didn’t get none for two weeks because I was still in the tomatoes out the garden for momma to can. He said “Now I don’t mind you having some, but you[‘re] just sitting down there eating every one of them as soon as they get ripe.” CL: What kind of activities did you participate in? PW: Oh my mother made me take music lessons because she was a pianist herself and this past year she was honored by Bella Magazine because she could really play the piano [and] direct a choir. Which used to be a church right down here on Gilmer Ave when it was the Mt. Zion AME and they turned it into a Y[MCA]. I also remember back then we used to walk from 842 7th Ave all the way down here. Wasn’t nothing then walking back in the day. And I always remember, when I just come close to this, I always think about that man when I was a little girl that was hung right at that church there where that road go[es] through because he was looking at a white girl and they just strung them up back in the day like that. They had a lot of hanging right there where Mrs. Penn lived on the corner of 5th Street and Harrison Ave. That corner house there was a church where– that a black man was hung and old folks always say don’t never go by there at �night because you might see something you don’t want or you might feel something you don’t want to feel. That was back in the say, y’know how old people say. There’s a lot of history on Gilmer Ave, my foot prints are in there from three years old on up to about seven or eight. My mother was a pianist and she always said that I could– looked like to me– to her rather, that when she would play something [that] I had a gift to go right behind her and do it. And so she made me take music lessons from Mrs. Mabel Robinson on 3rd Ave right where the First Baptist Church is now. There were houses all down there and the Ebenezer Church was right there on the corner where First Baptist built theirs. Mrs. Mabel Robinson was my music teacher up until I got about 13 years of age and she used to be mad with me ‘cause I never– she didn’t ever know it, but I never had to really practice. I would look at it and go and do [it] the way I want[ed] to do it and she would say “A, A, A”, she didn’t know I had heard it one time and I could play it. CL: Well do you still enjoy playing today? PW: Yeah, I give concerts every now and then. I received a standing ovation several times in Georgia when I go to churches down there and, to my amazement, I received a standing ovation March the fourth at St. Paul United Methodist Church, at my church. We had [an] Admiral there from the military, from the United States Government Navy. I played the Battle Hymn and With America and I received a standing ovation. And I tell people everywhere I go, they always want that like I don’t know how to play nothing else, but the Battle Hymn. Which I do know how to play other songs, y’know, but everytime “play the Battle Hymn, play the–”. I said “Good grief, all y’all must think that’s the only thing I know how to play”. And then I got tough with– oh I guess back in 19 and– must’ve been 89, 88 or 89, I met Dino Castinati (??) through Congressman Jim Olin and he was at the Kennedy Center, [he] was going to something during the month of Christmas there at the Kennedy Center and he showed me how to do the slide down on the piano and the first time that I did it, I cut my thumb. It’s the way you look, it’s still there, I still know it. And he said– I was so nervous, I didn’t know what to do, on his white piano. Said oh my God. He said “don’t get upset” and I was upset on that beautiful white piano and he just said “Oh wait a minute, it’s nothing to worry about”. But he said “The next time you do it, you take your third finger and then you can go on up on the keyboard. All the way up and then slide your thumb all the way back down.” So for me to master that– I said “I’m gonna do this when I get home,” but I wouldn’t do it back on his piano for the fear of thinking I was gonna mess up his piano, but he just got alcohol and went down and got it off in a matter of a minute. But that’s where I got that from. I like his music arrangements for concert music and I buy all of his records when I can get them and then I listen to them and then I try to do it. CL: That’s wonderful. PW: And I was a girl scout under Mrs. V__(??) Brody who’s deceased now. I went to nursing school twice and had nine months ‘til I graduated, but my husband got sick and I wasn’t able to finish. I don’t regret it, but I am glad that I– I learned a lot by going, but I wouldn’t be a nurse now-a-days because they don’t– they’re not trained like we were trained. You go to the hospital now and they don’t know nothing about a back rub or washing you down or anything like that and we were taught [that] whenever the patient wet in the bed that you had to give them a full �bath, wipe the mattress down, and dry it and turn the patient over on the other side and then you put a complete linen change on them. And I feel, in today, that’s why [there’s] so many bed sores on people because they’re half doing their work. If you– most women, when they’re on the bed pad, they usually will spill something. I would go forward, but I notice now they’ll take a dry sheet and put it over moisture, wet, and that will break down a person in a minute. So I had [to] throw a fit one day, one of my friends who was a nurse with me at our local hospital and she said “You don’t look at my behind because I know you[‘re] gonna raise the roof.” And she had been in there, had a total hip [replacement] and I was out of town and so after they told me Bertha was back I went over to see her. She said “Don’t look ‘cause I know you[‘re] going out [to] that desk and [you’re] gonna raise holy hell.” And it wasn’t nothing but two of us and we did it, although we didn’t have time to go to the bathroom. [A] lot of the times we were wetting our own pants getting there when we did go. But [they] had six people when we only had two of us on the same floor and we got it done. We would come in early. I was supposed to be on duty at 11 o’clock and I always got– I was always at work between 10:30 and no later than 10:35 because we had to have a report [the] quarter of. So that gives you time to relax, to know what patient had wet the bed, what patient will need this, that, and the other. The sickest patient you always go to first, especially when there’s not a lot of help. I would go around first because I had to work as a nursing assistant and take everybody’s temperature [and] blood pressure and I would write it down who [was] on pain medicine and sleeping pills during the night. But just like, say for instance, the one night I knew– something told me, y’know how you have gut feelings about different things, told me to go to one patient’s room and I went in there and the lady had swallowed her tongue and had a sitter sitting there by the bed. She didn’t even have a tongue bleed, but I used my pencil to open up her mouth upward and then put it in there because she was having a seizure. So sometimes nursing is by just about your gut, y’know, you have a feeling about different things. I guess it’s when I was dealing with the Matter of Justice group of lawyers was fighting for justice in the courtroom– That’s another subject, I won’t get on that right now. CL: Yeah, you can continue with that in a little bit. PW: But nursing is nothing like what it used to be. I don’t– They don’t get to training, they use this book sense, but you gotta have common sense. And working a while on the military bases, looked like it taught me a lot about seaweeds; you can use it for IV emergency ways of doing things. And I had asked one nurse one day, I said “If a patient was to have a cardiac arrest and you were in the operating room, would you give the doctor the dirty scalpel or would you go to central supply to get a whole new tray?” “Oh my God, all that bacteria, you know good and well [that] you wouldn’t use nothing dirty.” I said “I hope to God, you[‘re] not in the operating room when I have a heart attack.” ‘Cause he can always use antibiotics with that dirty scalpel. The main thing is getting that heart beating again. So, some things is common sense, everything is not in the book, some things is just plain common sense. CL: Okay, you said that your mother played piano. Did you play for different churches as well? PW: Yeah she used to play– she used to be the director of the Ebenezer Church– Mt. Zion AME Church that was down here on Gilmer Ave and she [had] sung in the choir at St. Paul. �CL: And your father? PW: He was an artist. He could build anything and make anything and I had a good daddy. I was really, truly, a daddy’s girl. CL: Can you elaborate on that just a little bit? PW: Well I know whatever I did bad I could go to him and tell him momma gave me a whippin’ or I’d go to [him] crying and say she whipped me too hard and that meant the next day I’d get a double one, y’know, for running my mouth. She said “I don’t care what you tell your daddy, when you do wrong you’re gon’ get it anyway.” CL: Can you talk about the school- your schools? Starting with elementary school and going all the way through to college and your nursing days. Just give us maybe the names of some. PW: Well, I went to Harrison School and I elaborated a lot with; you can be what you want to be. Education is fine, but you have to have common sense with it. When I was in school– I was raped when I was five years old and my older cousin was the rapist. I was five and on up till I was about eight years old and I didn’t think nothing about it then, but I always had a fear of him coming around. He always had– he always told me “If you tell your daddy, y’know, he might go to jail because he might do something to hurt me” and I was always afraid [that] somebody might do something to my daddy. But when I started school, I didn’t know how it affected me because I always thought everybody else was better than I was. I would praise everybody else for their As and Bs and I was a D and F student. I think I didn’t try– I’ve been thinking about this for years and years. But once you are raped it do[es] something to you for the rest of your life. You never get over it. I haven’t, to this day, got over it because sometimes, look like to me, I can sense his smell and he’s been dead for years and he was a doctor. Anyrate. It took me– Oh I guess when I got in the ninth grade and Mrs. __ (??) told me, she said “Why are you always praising someone else and not yourself? If you would tackle down, you could do just what anybody else would do.” See when I didn’t get my lesson, I got a whipping when I got through the door because I would always tell my momma I didn’t have no homework. And back there then, the teachers gave you a whippin’, you had to– The strap went on your hand and ain’t no use in telling momma you didn’t have one because the lick would be there for her to know that you got them whippings from the teachers. But being raped put a damper on my life and Mrs. __(??) told me, she said “If you can play the piano and memorize the quarter notes, the eight notes; you can get your math and you can do anything you want to because music is a learning sense.” It still didn’t, y’know, phase me, but I noticed I always liked science. I liked the frogs and the fish, I always wanted to deal with that, go down to Washington Park and stuff like that. I would always make [a] B in that, but it was C, D, and F in everything else. I really didn’t think that I could graduate, y’know, I was in a general course, I didn’t take an academic. Back there then– That’s why I don’t approve of the SOLs today. We had a general course, a business course, and [an] academic. If you felt you were going to college, you had the academic. If you wanted to be in the business world, you took business. If you [were] general course, in case you did want to go, you, y’know, get the maximum grades, the basics. But, her later name, Mrs. Hart, took a chance on me after I graduated from high school. You had to make that C because they wouldn’t �let you out of there. So I buckled down and I got it and Mrs. Ella King was an algebra teacher, she said “Why come you haven’t been doing this all the time? Why you didn’t buckle down a long time ago?” But, it was just that, rape made me feel that I was just dirty and that everybody else was better than I was. I would praise my classmates all the time about how good they were and, me, I just felt that I– Just like everybody knew what I had been doing. As you grow older you’ll learn that that’s wrong. But anyrate, when I graduate[d] from high school I always liked nursing because I used to work at old Burrell and Dr. Downing’s office, that’s how Mrs. Lee had seen me going through, skipping on over to Dr. Downing’s office. I used to walk all the way from Chestnut Ave over to Henry Street. 31 Center Ave, I’ve never forgotten that address. He taught me well, he was excellent and he was a doctor, even back in the day. You could not make no mistakes around him and I said Lord have mercy I’m not smart at all, but when he got through with me I was smart. I can tell you right now, I know when IVs are wrong and I can tell you what somebody’s doing wrong and everything else. I didn’t graduate from nursing school, but Dr. Downing taught me well. And I worked in Old Burrell up until I graduated from high school, every day after school. Then after I graduated from high school, going back to when I graduated, I went to Community Hospital School of Practical Nursing and I thought I was going there and stay, but I didn’t. My mother– my daddy was a Catholic and he wanted me to go to St. Vincent Hospital in Bridgeport and that’s when I met my first husband which was a wrong thing. I don’t regret it, I had four beautiful children, but I wish– I thought going to the Catholic school at that time with the long dresses and cuffed uniforms and you could not let nothing get wet on them. Everything had to be starched stiff, everywhere you go the Catholic sisters were with you. I had enough of that at home, couldn’t go nowhere. If you go to town they were with you. If you to the bathroom one was standing there and the other one was watching and maybe in a way it was good, some of it probably was. But then I met Neon Winbush and he’s deceased now, I don’t want to talk about him too much, but we didn’t get along in our marriage and I come out of nursing school to marry him and that’s when I’d seen the rattlesnakes out on Camp Pendleton in the sink and they were so big you could step out [and] you might step on one and I’m– I just can’t. If someone tells me there’s [a] snake somewhere, I go off. I don’t even look at them on TV. I just have that fear of them because one dropped in my lap when I was nine years old at the family reunion out in Kingstown and I[‘m] just deathly afraid of a snake. That’s my fear. They say I shouldn’t be, but I am. After that, going to nursing school and coming back and going back again. [I] met my second husband and he told me I could go back. I took operating room technician when he got sick and then I stayed there for about six months. My teacher told me– she said I had play for a girl to sing and she didn’t know it, she said “You in the wrong field, you need to be teaching music lessons.” Anyway, accomplished goals– It looked like to me I was always a fighter for someone else’s wrongdoing. When I see somebody else being treated wrong I was always a fighter. I always liked Reverend Wilkinson and Reverend Kearns because to me, whatever people say about Rev. Wilkinson, we wouldn’t really truly be where we are today if it hadn’t been for him because he took the initiative to integrate all these hospitals here and I used to see him going across the bridge when I was working at Dr. Downing when I was a young girl. �Rev. Kearns, who was the pastor of 5th Ave Presbyterian Church, his daughter and my sister integrated the American Theater and my mother was mad because– She said “My daughter could have been killed! Don’t you ever take my daughter anywhere to be integrating anything!” Those two men put their life on the line and he also put his children’s life on the line to integrate Melrose school. So I feel that Rev. Wilkinson was truly the hero in my book because we had a lot of presidents, but none did what he did because he marched with Martin Luther King back in the day before he’d even come to Roanoke. I just feel that, regardless of his personal life or what he did, he put his life on the line to integrate. Roanoke Memorial was the only hospital [that] truly didn’t want us in it. Lewis Gale, Jefferson, Shenandoah Hospital was alright with it, but Carilion just couldn’t stand, which was Roanoke Memorial back in the day, for blacks to be there. I went there to work in December the 16th, 1966 right when they integrated and we had two other black nurses that had just graduated from Burrell, which Mrs. Smith and Mrs. Claytor taught, and they went through a living hell. They didn’t they had sense or nothing and they made top on their state board. And then there was another girl that graduated from Howard University, they wouldn’t let her give meds [or] anything. It’s like [if you] were black, you didn’t have sense, your school wasn’t as good as our school. [Of] course my big mouth, back then in the day, I said they[‘re] just as good as anybody else. But then I had– I worked there, but I always would eat to myself and I had three nurses– I worked the night shift [and] they would always ask me “Why [do] you always eat to yourself? Why don’t you come and eat with the rest of us?” Well, the way I’d seen some of the blacks were treated and some of the patients with the Bs and the Ws on it, this black female or this white female were on the charts. That let me know that discrimination was still going on in this hospital and that’s what Rev. Wilkinson fought for, the removal of the Bs and the Ws off the chart because they would [let] anybody at the desk to know that’s a black patient in that room and I’m so proud of Rev. Wilkinson and Rev. Kearns because they really did fight for our rights. I hear a whole lot of people saying this that and the other and I just look at them and I say, y’know, good and well you[‘re] lying because I’m 75 and I know you didn’t do it at all. Y’know what I mean? And so I don’t believe in lying about what I’m doing. You tell the truth, he was an extraordinary man. He had his personal doings, but who am I to judge him? Only God can judge him, but he sure did integrate this city and I’m very proud of him. And I know he did because I would be working at Dr. Downing’s office when Rev. Kearns would come down off the hill and they would meet and walk. There wasn’t no cars, it was walking time, back and forth. So I’m very proud of Rev. Wilkinson. He talked to me a long time, he joined SCLC before he passed and he told me that you got to stand up for what you believe in, regardless of what people think of you. [As] long as you know you right with God and you right within yourself, you don’t worry about what people say and that’s one thing I’ve carried through life and when I got down to Georgia, Coretta Scott King told me the same thing. You don’t have time, her and Rosa Parks, you don’t have time to worry about what people say about you, you got to keep going. I wonder sometimes, how did I get into civil rights? I guess it’s because my husband was a disabled veteran and I started doing veterans rights first and writing letters for the veterans when he was in the hospital and helping him to fight for his rights because he was a �disabled veteran. I had a lady named Mrs. Louis Brown [who] asked me to join the NAACP. Well, in high school back in the day, everybody belonged to the NAACP because Mrs. Eugenia Reed lived right up on the hill here and Mrs. Marilyn Curtis, they were home economics teachers and we would make fruit cakes and cookies and things to sell to pay our little $10 back there and then to belong to the NAACP. That was a must back in the day and that’s when I first joined. Later in life, the lady [who] lived a block over from me, Mrs. Louis Brown, she got me back in it in 1967, somewhere in there. I was under Carl Tinsley, was the president at the time, and I [had] become chairperson of Labor and Industry and I was there for 12 years. I’m a paid of life member. But I’d seen [there] was a need for another civil rights organization here. Sometimes, you join an organization, some people they do for, others they don’t and I’ve always been about the person that can’t do for themselves and don’t have the money. That’s the way I still am, that’s why I don’t have no money. I’m just black and poor and will never have nothing ‘cause my children said if I was to win the lottery I would give it all away. But the more I read about Dr. King and the more I was with him over in Danville when they pickett over there years ago, the more I wanted to be more like him; help the poor and the needy. And I have devoted my life to helping people with discrimination and racism and going to court with them and that is still my life. CL: So Drum Major for Justice also applied. PW: Well, I felt honor when Dr. King’s son gave me the presidential award of his daddy and that’s the highest recognition you can get in the SCLC. I have received a Drum Major of Justice Award from the state and an award for excellent. My children say “Where you gon’ put anymore or anything else if you got them in boxes?” Half the stuff is up and some is in the box[es]. I don’t worry about that. The only award I want is the one that when God gives me the award to go to the Kingdom of Heaven. I don’t worry about any of that and a lot of people come– “Why don’t you tell this? Why don’t you put this in the paper? Why don’t you do this?” I don’t have time for that. The Lord hates a proud look and somebody[‘s] always proud about themselves and I’m not about that. I’m about doing it and getting it done. I stepped down after 12 years of being the president after I brought the SCLC to Roanoke because we, as the people, do not have justice in the courtroom and I did not want to damage the reputation of Dr. Kings name [in] no way shape form or fashion so that is why I stepped down and the state didn’t like it because I said this time I’m going all the way through, even if I have to get put in jail. This justice system in Roanoke stinks. It’s a disgrace when you pick up the paper and see one person got one sentence and someone else get another one. And I’m fighting for my husband. I was fired at Roanoke Memorial– or I was accused of falsifying records on two children’s charts. Now I worked there eight long years just on pediatrics and the day I was called down to say I did not take the vital signs with only two people on the floor and that particular night it was three. But as soon, right after they found out who I was; NAACP. And of course I found out later, anybody with the NAACP, you were going out the door on the account of Rev. Wilkinson then herding them to the Justice Department all the time. So I say you got to be kidding me. I know good and well you’re not terminating me after working up [on] that floor by myself with a mental[ly] ill nurse for eight �years. But anyrate. They always tell you to sign, I said no I’m not signing anything. It took me a long battle to win that case. I won it at the employment office. Come to find out you learn a lot when you pursue things. I went in at the employment office, there was no missing vital signs, I had taken the vital signs, the girl came in at 7:15, received the same vital signs as I did. Only mine was 108 in blood pressure over 70 and hers was 110. There was no difference in the temperature, pulse, and respiration. And I took the case to the employment office, they denied me. But see people don’t realize they can go back for intercostal appeal. On the appeal level, I won it, there was no discrepancy. I let the case go to the EEOC, they have two big hospitals there. They went over [it], said there was no discrepancy. See they wanted me out of there because of who I was; chairperson of Labor and Industry for the NAACP. I won it there so he said “Well you have a right to sue to get you a lawyer, but lawyers in Roanoke will not take you blacks in no courtroom for no civil rights case.” Unknown: Sorry, um Amber called and said Cathy’s on her way. PW: Then I carried it to– I told them no. To make sure that you take it to litigation, to the legal department and at the reconciliation is when Mr. W__(??) told me he’d give me $3,000 and some of my benefits back. Now I don’t want it all the way through and the fact finding special– and believe it or not, at the time, Clarence Thomas was my fact finding specialist back there then. And I never throw away papers, I still got them. And she said “Mrs. Wilson, are you hard up for money?” I said yes I’ve been eating Oodles of Noodles [for] so long that I’ve done turned into a noddle. She said “Well, they wanted to give you $3,000 and some of your benefits back.” I said “After damaging my name? You want me of all people to receive $3,000?” I said, oh no I got them now. So afterwards, they said “What [do] you want to do?” I said, let my case go to the Justice Department. I received my right to go– to sue from the Justice Department. I wanted to go all the way through to let everybody know that it was a racist hospital, it still to this day is, and to let them know how they lied to get me out of the workforce. But, honey, you talkin’ about racism in the courtroom, you wouldn’t believe it. I won, all the way through all [of] the legal challenges. My day in the Western District Court of Virginia, they had people swarming all around there. I had asked for an open court hearing. That I did not get. On the hearing level, they asked my supervisor “Mrs. Gray, have you ever know anyone–” My lawyer did, who was Charles Magnum at the time. “Do you know of anyone who [has] falsified vital signs and records.” She said “Well now you have opened up a can of worms.” In other words, it’s crawling all over the place. A lot of times we were so short of help [that] we had pads [that] we would write the vital signs down [on] and you’d be so fast that you would take it home and call back and let them know what the vital signs were, but these were already charted, mine were. They just wanted me out of there because they knew who I was. My day in court was basement court justice. A lot of– Henry Craighead and his wife, Wendil Hipkins (??) and his wife, my brother, and all of us where in the courtroom and I told them, I said “Y’know what, I have already lost this case.” “Oh no, you ain’t lost no case, the case hasn’t started.” I said, “Didn’t you hear what they said?” “Well why’s that? We haven’t even started the case.” “I have already lost.” “Why’s that?” I said because the judge called the lawyer by his name and the lawyer called him by his. �They have already planned this little playhouse, I could have had it at home with my grandchildren. Sure enough. I just prayed, I said “Now Lord please let me keep my sanity. Please do not let me get out of control. And help me through it all.” And my Lord sure helped me through it all. I [sat] there and every nurse told the truth. Mrs. Gray, who was a supervisor, said “I had told them every time somebody [had] come here to work and was a member of the NAACP, somehow or another they got rid of them. So she’s not the only one.” And the judge did not like that. Jackson Keizer, we all know him. From Danville and everywhere else, he’s the most racist thing that is. But anyway, to show you how nice he was, he said “Mrs. Gray I can understand why you say you’re not prejudice.” All three nurses [that] came in[to] that courtroom for me were white. He made them look like they weren’t nothing because they told the truth about a black woman. Don’t tell me God don’t send the right people for you. When you are right, when you– that’s why I teach children when you go to work; do your job, on your job, know your job, know the policy of your job [and] you will always have somebody to come to court for you if you are right. But you’ve got [to] not lay off your job. I never laid off my job. When I had asthma, I still went to work. If I had those two days or three days I was off with asthma, I’d work the days they had already assigned me to be off. For nine years I never missed a day, out of 14 years I was there. So after the court was over, Mr. Craighead said “Well, Mrs. Wilson I thought you were gonna go off in here.” I said “But what did I tell you? I’ve already lost this case.” So that is why I took time off from the SCLC because I’m writing a book about it and the name of it’s called “Basement Court Justice”. We do not have justice here. Be it black or white women, you do not have justice. I look at some cases back where– The woman was raped up at McDonalds. This was a known convicted rapist, she was white. She never did get her say in court, they threw it out of [the] court. And knowing this mad had been a known convicted rapist. Knowing. If you [were] a woman going in there, forget it, you ain’t gon’ win nothing. So, to this day, I feel great. He never said that I lost my case. He just said “Mrs. Gray, I’m like you, I’m not prejudice, but a lot of people think I am. But I’m ruling in favor of Roanoke Memorial.” He never said I lost it, he just he’d rule in favor of Roanoke Memorial. Now when I went back for my deposition and my courtroom papers and all, they could never find them. “I lost them. I don’t know where they’re at.” But see what they didn’t realize, I had a person there taking down everything that went on in the courtroom. I told them, well that’s alright I had somebody taking it all down and to this day I still got it, the record. They wouldn’t give me the records. Y’know, usually you can pay your $300 for it, waver it, and get it. But no I never got any of my depositions, but thank God I had a good friend to come in there and take it all down. The second thing is, what I’m fighting for, is justice. Is that my husband received two months of cobalt treatment. Or close to it, I’ll say approximate is the word you’re supposed to use since I’ve been on Capitol Hill. He was a veteran that came down from the VA– the VA Hospital did not have cobalt treatment at the time so they would bus the veterans to Roanoke Memorial. And most of the time, when I would get off from work, I would be there to help my husband. And one of the nurses said to me, that was before I was terminated, “He sure is jaundiced quick. What is he doing so yellow so fast?” And so I went down and asked them, they said “Now you know your �job [is] on 11 west, don’t mess with us down here. We know what we’re doing.” Well in the end of December, he got so sick and he had two excellent doctors up there because when they operated on him they stated that they had gotten all of the cancer, they caught it in time and it was in a capsule. I said “Can I see it?” because I wanted to really see what cancer looked like. He said “You see, this is in a capsule Mrs. Wilson.” He said “It was capsulated so we was able to yank it out.” And he said “I want him to have just two doses of chemo because it will kill the cells around it. Okay?” [We] went down to Roanoke Memorial, they said “Oh no, it had spread all through his body.” My God, his doctor was mad as fire. After Christmas he was so sick. [He] never did lose no hair and I should have thought something then. He went back up there to that doctor and he said “Oh–” I won’t say what he said. He was furious. He said “I only wanted him to have two doses of that.” In other words, they fried my husband to death with [that] cobalt treatment. They fried him so you couldn’t even see his bladder or his prostate. And the autopsy report revealed no residue carcinoma noted in his body. But I got lawyers here. Do you think they ever got anything out of it? But what they thought, I was stupid and never would find out anything. But there is no statutory limit of time for a wrongful death. On May the fifth, 1995 on 2020, what happened at __ Hospital (??) in Boston and in Florida, it stated; anytime a hospital gives a patient a treatment that [costs] his or her life, it is homicide. In other words, my husband was murdered. Now, in the letter that I wrote all three presidents, which they probably didn’t get it because, y’know, their secretaries and all get that. And I’m writing one to Obama and this time I’m going on TV about it. Anytime a patient receives anything like that, it’s horrible. But my question was in my letter, if my husband received that amount of cobalt treatment and didn’t have cancer, how many more of those veterans on that received that treatment? Or how many people in Southwestern Virginia received that treatment? They wanted hush and they wanted quite, but the[‘re] gon’ have to pay me big bucks because my husband only wanted $275,000 and that was because he wanted to open up the doors for other veterans. And back there then he said “I want you to take $100,000 and invest into the childrens’ education. You take the $100,000 and put it in the bank for you in case you get sick or something. And take the other and buy a motorhome and carry the children across the country because I always wanted my children to see different cities and other places. It’s educational for them to learn about other places.” Do you think I have given up? No. He’d be dead 33 years next month, July the 22nd. Do you think I have given up? No. Do you think a lawyer– I had two lawyers that’d take it and one of them told me, he said “I’m gon’ try to settle out of court with you because no one wins a case in the Western District Court of Virginia.” I said, “But the judges have sworn on the Holy Bible to uphold the Constitution of the United States.” I [had] not known then [if] you[‘re] black, you[‘re] not going to get that kind of money in Roanoke. Anyrate, I– Y’know as old as it is now, it still is sort of painful to even talk about. And predominant[ly] on that bus was white veterans, there was only [one] other black man and Mr. Craighead always thought it was his brother because he had cancer during that time. One would say, was they didn’t care because at that time they were building a new cancer center and mind you the government was giving them top dollar for every veteran that came down there to get that treatment. How many more veterans received that �treatment that didn’t have it? And you on down the line, in 1987, February, I was told I had breast cancer. Knowing I didn’t have no money and that is a nonprofit hospital. I had some insurance, but not all. The biopsy stated that I had breast cancer. I said, “Are you sure about that?” Because a lump came on the side. So my doctor went back downstairs, he said “Well I’m gon’ give it one more try.” So he went back down again, they said “Yes, it is cancer and you better get it out.” So he– From February to July, I had to make up my mind. Y’know how you just “well I don’t think I have it” then some say “you don’t have it, don’t have the surgery” and, y’know, and I said– Oh I’m just trying to block it out of my mind and God was telling me all the time that I didn’t have it, but the doctors said I had it. Y’know you have these two feelings, everything come in your mind. So anyway, July the 28th, 1987, on my son’s birthday, my baby son, I had my right breast removed. And I asked the doctor, I said “Did you get it all?”. That’s what I said “Did you get all of it?” It took me almost seven years to find out I never had breast cancer. I went over to the hospital to get so my daughters would know what type of cancer I had, by having five daughters to see, to give to their doctors. Because the one in Georgia, being in the medical field and she do all this chemo and all this radiation stuff and x-ray. She wanted to know what type I had to give to her doctor so they could catch anything that was coming up. So I went over there, took one of my boys with me and he went with me over there and I got my medical files. The first thing the girl said “I know you glad you didn’t have cancer.” Girl, sweat rolled off of me. I said Lord, what in the world? I got on in the car, brought my papers and came on home and as I was reading them; “No residue carcinoma noted in the right breast.” I thought I was losing my mind. I called Mr. Craighead, I called all– I think every neighbor, every board member, everybody knew because I told them to come and look. I feel like I’m losing my mind in my own house. How could any doctor take your breast off and knowing you didn’t have cancer? How come he didn’t reconstruct my breast when he knew he made that medical error? Oh I tried to fight that too. The lawyer I had came up from Chesapeake and he was doing an excellent job fighting for my rights, but then all of a sudden, it was just like the other one. He said “I can’t practice law. I will never practice law in Roanoke again.” I’ve had two lawyers that tell me they will never come to Roanoke to practice law. Question is, how many more women’s breast was taken off with the wrong lab report? And see, right now, everybody in the city’s halfway mad with me because they know this is on this tape to Congress. And Dr. Phil gon have a copy, Oprah got a copy, everybody’s getting a copy of it. Now if they think I’m sitting here, as old as I am now, do I care? No. Everybody gon’ know what Roanoke Memorial Carilion Hospital did to me because God only knows how many more women are walking around here with their breasts off and don’t even know they didn’t have cancer to start with. Being poor and being black, you cannot fight– or poor whites, you cannot fight for your rights. The lawyers fees [are] tremendous. You cannot get out here and fight. So the only way I know to do it is to let everybody know what they did. And you ask me, why do I fight for justice? ‘Cause I know what I’ve been through and what I’ve been and what I know somebody else done been through and I will sit and help people as long as I know they are right, but don’t come to me and hold your head down and tell me that “I stayed off from work this week. I was sick. I’m sick every week.” �Because I was a severe asthmatic and I don’t take sickness as an excuse of being off from work. Now when you[‘re] right, I’m for you. I’ll put my foot in the street for you. And when you’re wrong, boy don’t let me catch you in a wrong line or turn because I’m through. I’ll leave you just like I grabbed you. So you ask me why I do what I do, that’s why. I’ve been there and to this day I never knew that I would shake hands with three presidents and have three president Point of Life awards for volunteerism. I have been nominated for the Congressional Medal of Honor by Dr. Gloria Breedlove (??) of Philadelphia. Just being nominated was alright for me. I received the Governor’s Award. I received the key to the City of Roanoke, the City Distinguished Service Medal Award. I’ve got too many of them to even talk about. But anyway, they on they walls, but a lot of them are not because I just– And they never would have never got up there if my grandson [hadn’t] said “What you got all these things in the box for? We don’t know what you’ve been doing.” I said I ain’t got time to hang them. So the ones up there, Ryan hung them up, my grandson, because they never would have gotten up on the wall. If it were [up] to me they’d still [be] in a nice little tote, y’know. I didn’t have time, still don’t have time, to hang the rest of them up. So I’m not worried about all of that. I’m just worried about doing what God tells me to do and when he tells me to move and do, I’m going to do it. It’s not so much that I want to bring the hospital down, it’s that I don’t want it to happen to no one else in the court of law and I want these doctors, that when they do do malpractice cases, that they be man enough to let people know they made a mistake. Because if you’re a Christian and somebody tells you “please forgive me, I made a mistake,” what type of person would you be to sue somebody? Because we all make mistakes, but no one, to this day, has apologized to me about the death of my husband. No one has apologized to me about my breast being taken off. I got a bill for $2,000 and it was on my credit report, I had to pay it to get my credit clean. For them, paying them, for taking my breast off. Every morning I take a shower, I notice it’s gone for no reason. How would you feel if you were in the same situation? No one has apologized. In this city, it is blatant racism when it comes to [the] courtroom. Our children get more time than anyone else. I have, in the seat and on three or four cases, where a young man had told them they were gonna kill his sister, for years they told them, and he was locked up because he beat this guy up. Finally, the boy killed his sister right there on the corner of Rugby Boulevard and I wrote the Parole Board, you need to let him out because he told you that’s what was gonna happen and no one believed him and no one paid attention to his sister and looked after her knowing this boy was a maniac, a jealous fool. I shouldn’t say fool; a person. So Roanoke is different when it comes to fighting and marching for justice. When you go to Georgia or Florida or other cities, like they marched up there by the baseball game, I was there at the time. Florida, when we marched to help the Mexican orange pickers, I called Mr. DuPrey out of the United States Department of Labor because they was cheating them out of their money when I was in Crescent City, Florida and he believed it. He came all the way from Philadelphia [to] down there and made them pay them people the money they rightfully due. It’s terrible, about justice. As I told one of Barack Obama’s friends, or one of his guys up there, you hear the candidates running; it’s about schools and healthcare. No one say about justice. And I know you read about the guy, the judge, the federal judge up there was �putting children just on the account of his brother to make money. It goes on. We had one judge, federal judge, taking bribes. You talkin’ about a file cabinet, I got one at home. You wouldn’t believe stuff. Now judges are not immune to lawsuits now and bias cases can be reheard. That’s why I’m fighting so hard right now because it was bias for any judge in Roanoke or in Virginia to hear my case. Y’know why? Because I had picketed the Federal Court downtown many time, the Circuit Court too. I picketed the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals for the removal of Judge Wilkinson who all– They never show you this, about what I saw. White lawyers where at the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals to the removal of Judge Wilkinson. There were only two blacks, me and another guy who was from Fairfax. They knew I was always fighting about justice so they invited me. The group was called The Matter of Justice and we banded because the Flanagans Association was in the Twin Towers, they were killed. So I do hope we get back on track again and I used to meet with them often. And then we’d picket the Supreme Court because Donna Diggs, a white lawyer, down in the Tidewater area was fined $300,000 because– and she was white, she’s white, because she told the lawyer, the judge rather, that he was a racist judge because her black clients– Every time she’d bring black people in there, he’d give them more time than anyone else. Now this is a white lawyer fighting for black people and we don’t support the lawyers, the white lawyers that do stand up for us an put theirself in the noose. And so he fined her $300,000 because she told him he was racist in order to remove himself from the bench. But we need to, as the people, stand up for the lawyers and picket and demonstrate to make sure we have equal rights and equal justice for all people and until we get that, America gon’ have– We have over– It used to be over 800, I heard the other day that we have over 900 hate groups in this country and it’s a disgrace. And we have it right here in Roanoke, racist judges sitting on the bench. This court oughta be investigated; how many civil rights have been won in the Western District Court of Virginia? How many cases have been won for blacks in the Western District Court of Virginia? None. Mr. Henry Craighead and I used to keep a record and I always say his wife got a library of Congress because would tape everything and he would bring, when I was out of town, he would make copies and bring it to me or if I’d seen something and we would talk sometimes ‘til 12 or 1 o’clock at night, I said Lord have mercy. People would think we were going together I guess, but Virgie (??) never did say anything, she just said “they on the phone”. Up sometimes to 12 o’clock and 1 o’clock at night, we would look at TV, late at night to hear CSPAN and FOX on what was going on in the court cases because, y’know, all night long they’d have what was going on all day long. No, it’s no justice here, none whatsoever. I was in court about a year ago; this black boy, they said it appeared that he had stole something at Sears because he went over and looked at a pair of earrings. They gave him a month in jail. There was a white girl in there [that] had shoplift[ed] from four different stores. She had remorsed and her minister was there and she walked. One time I was in the courtroom– See I’m older now, but when I was younger Mr. Craighead and I was in the courtroom and I went out and I asked Dawn Caldwell “Do we now have blatant racism in the courtroom? Why one would get one sentence and another one get another sentence?” Our people do get more sentencing and more time than anyone else. And they said “Well the way you run your mouth, how come you �haven’t been in jail?” And I’ll never forget, David Bower said “Perneller, y’know, if you are ever arrested down here, I’m gon’ be your friend and come down and visit you.” I said “David, I’m a child of the King”, I said “I don’t want out.” Because once you arrest me; what is the SCLC? A movement. You will have an all American city because I’m not gonna let nobody be on the out. I’m gonna be reading my Bible and singing “We Shall Overcome”. By being a life member of the NAACP, a life member of the DAV, and a life member of the SCLC. The state is right there. You will have an all American city and I will just be singing and praying right in jail. To let him know, I’m like Martin Luther King, I don’t care. At my age now, God has been so good to me Carla. When my children was small and my first husband and I split up, I said Lord just let me live to see my children grown enough to do for themselves. I’m so blessed, they can do anything they want to me now. I have seen seven children grown, and all are working ‘cause one was laid off. I have seen 19 grandchildren and they are doing well, college and so forth and I have seen ten great grandchildren. Now I’m blessed, God’s been good to me, whatever they do to me now I don’t care. But I don’t want what I went through for no one else to go through what Perneller Wilson had been through in this city. I’m 75 and I’m proud, but look what our forefathers did to get us where we are. Look how those people died coming over that bridge in Selma, Alabama to give us the right to vote and we got people that don’t even register to vote. I met Mrs. Carl before she died last year, how they had took a stick she said with a nail in it and beat her across her back. How one man took a rattle snake and they just chopped his finger off back in the day. People died with snake bites and everything else going, trying to get to Selma, Alabama to that bridge to give us the right to vote and we got people afraid to open their mouth, people who are afraid to vote, don’t want to vote. It bothers me. What is wrong with us? Vote can change, vote means freedom. And that’s why I’m glad I brought Juneteenth here, I’m very proud of it because in Galveston, Texas, it was the day we were freed from slavery. And I’m very proud of it because it’s not official, it’s been official. It’s been official, it’s in the books and I tell people to read about it. But I cannot vote for nobody that sit up and sustain a vote and knowing there’s a racist judge on the bench. I cannot vote for nobody that say we need to forget about slavery. How can you forget about it when the slaves built the White House? When I go to Washington, I look at the artwork. They must have been some brilliant uneducated men. When you go in the Capitol, all of that carving, that work that they did with just little tools, little hammers and saws. And a black man fell when he put the steeple up there. He built the Supreme Court. Our general down here was built by the slaves. How can you ask me to forget about slavery? No way. Well, this library, how do you think this was built? By slaves. People with no money. All up and down Gilmer Ave. we didn’t have cement sidewalks, we had bricks laid into the sidewalk. Our people was trying to make sure we didn’t walk in the mud. It bothers me when we have black people that we put in office and don’t stand up for the rights of the people. I stand up for white people just like I do black people. It was a group of men down at the Vinton Weaving Mill, the police officer knocked on my door. Do you think I was going to turn them away and say “You white, I ain’t gon’ wait on them.” That wasn’t Martin Luther King, he wanted us to help all races of people. We had Juneteenth Day, we had all races of people. Jeff __ (??), Bishop Mitchell is the new president, �but he know they better have somebody outside of the black folks down there on Juneteenth Day because there was white people to help us to get out of slavery. There was people to help Harriet Tubman to go underground. We have always had white people in the background to help us, just like I had those three white women come into court with me. So when you go to work, do your job, on your job, do your work; God’s gon’ always send someone in there to help you. I’m where I am today because I know the Lord, I don’t care what nobody say about me, but as long as God knows what I’m doing and my children know what I’m doing and I’m right within myself, I’m fine. If I’m wrong Carla, and you ever notice it where Perneller’s wrong, call me up and be a lady and say it; “I don’t like what you did. I don’t like what you say and I would appreciate it–” And that’s what I tell my board. They laugh at me. I always tell them “Now if you don’t like what I’m saying, if you disagree with me, let’s have it in here. Let’s have it in here.” And when I go to Washington when I was with the group of lawyers up there, they always said “You awfully quiet over there Perneller and when you quiet, I wonder about you. I wish you was running your mouth. You alright? But when you get quiet, it disturbs me.” I say, why[‘s] it disturb you? I’m just thinking, y’know. That’s what you have to do, I mean, you have to think sometimes before you speak. I’ve learned that since I’ve gotten older and then I look at a person’s expression. Just like now, Carla is wondering whether or not– how long I’m going to speak or have I overdid it or is my time out. Is that enough? CL: That’s more than enough, but I would like for you to continue. If you have anything else to say, I would love for you to tell us. I wanted to hear about the front porch stories because I have heard so much. PW: My porch has had everybody on my porch. I’ve had emergency board meetings, I’ve had Congressman Goodlatte to come and give me the book called– Oh lord, I can’t think of it now. “Speak the Truth to Power” because he heard me up there in Washington. We’re good friends. He knows I’m a Democrat and he’s a Republican and sometimes I puck his nerves and sometimes he pucks mine and I let him know what I disagree on, but he never gets mad with me. Senator John Edwards and I, we have had our battles. I wrote him up in the paper because he disrespect[ed] me, although he apologized, but we still are good friends. And once you[‘re] a politician, you need to know they’re gonna be people that’s gonna disagree with you without you getting mad and angry. And I had to prove to Senator Edwards that I’m a woman and I don’t let no man disrespect me. I didn’t let my husband do it, I’m not gon’ let no white man do it, and I’m not gon’ let no black man do it. So when you disrespect me, you gon’ be rolled up in the paper ‘cause I’m not gonna let nobody do that. I didn’t let my husband do it. So no one’s gon’ disrespect me because I’m gonna respect you and you’re gonna respect me. I demand it. And so my front porch [has] a lot of history to it. I’ve had Duck Wilder there when I was campaigning for his field rep. Congressman Olind has been to my house, he’s deceased now, because that’s when I was doing Rule 11 to get that civil rights bill to the Supreme Court. Dr. Carl Poindexter taught me paralegal, he used to be an instructor, he taught economics and government and law at UVA. He’s really the man to let me know that I had a lot of sense, that I was smarter than I was because I always had a damper on myself. Bur Dr. Carl Poindexter for, I guess up until he died in �2000 from 1985, would be at my house everyday, sometimes on certain Sundays training me to speak to Congress about Rule 11. So, he’s white, but I can say he brought me to where I am. It was a white man that taught a black woman. He’d seen more in me than I’d seen in myself because I said “I can’t go up there and good God no you gon’ do it, but you’ve got to help me. I cannot do it by myself.” It was a white man that brought me out [to] where I am today. He’d seen more in me than I did myself. Is there anything else Mrs. Carla? I think you’ll get the rest of it after you copy this. Have you copied it? CL: No, not yet. PW: Okay. CL: Let me keep this until Tuesday? PW: You gon’ give me all of my stuff back. CL: I will bring it by your house. What else do I have of yours? I gave it to Alicia and them to copy. Let me find out all the stuff I have of yours. PW: Oh I gave you the march, my picture, several things. CL: I know I have some SCLC booklets. PW: Oh I put you two new ones now. This is the one that went into the national magazine because Rev. Mitchel is the new president. Jeff had to step down due to his wife’s heart condition. And this is the city children– We didn’t use our banner, we have a banner. But it’s a write up about me starting the SCLC. So I gave you two because if somebody’s looking at one they could, y’know, you can have two to give out in the library. CL: And they do ask for these and I do sometimes have mine go missing. Someone has used it and kept going with it, but that’s okay. PW: Yeah, but that’s yours and this is for the library. I always try to send you some down here. CL: You do and I have a lot of them and like I said, sometimes they get– PW: Okay, did you want these pictures? CL: Yes. I will scan– Let me have all of this, let me scan all of this– PW: Oh I’ll let you do it and you don’t have to do it now. CL: And I will get it back to you and somebody can see you on Tuesday. PW: Alright, to the porch. CL: Perneller, I would like to thank you for this interview. I have learned– PW: Now you’ll be talkin’ about me real bad, won’t you? CL: No I will not. PW: Oh I have a lot of enemies now, don’t think I don’t. CL: Oh we all do if you’re trying to be something. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Perneller Chubb-Wilson Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Perneller Chubb-Wilson Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 18 June 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:22:12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 June 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Perneller Chubb-Wilson; Carla Lewis Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Chubb-WilsonPerneller https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2712/CookJimmy_[compressed].mp3 41d3c58fc41e04a3efb594d119d4e6d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Jimmy Cook Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Jimmy Cook Interviewer: Theresa Gillespie Date: 20 April 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 38:17 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 April 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James Cook; Theresa Gillespie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CookJimmy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2711/ParkerPeggy_[compressed].mp3 e7e1bfedea4091ac061cbc683d7cb49b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Peggy Parker Subject The topic of the resource Southwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Peggy Parker Interviewer: Meghan Shea-Keenan Date: 4 November 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 33:56 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4 November 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peggy Sutton Parker; Meghan Shea-Keenan Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ParkerPeggy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2710/McCaddenEstelle._[compressed].mp3 d23bf6afceec7dd13d64fead13996eaf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Estelle McCadden Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Estelle McCadden Interviewer: Wafa Al-Daily Date: 6 April 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:00:07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6 April 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Estelle McCadden; Wafa Al-Daily Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McCaddenEstelle https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2709/ChubbRichard2_[compressed].mp3 022411f99ff884456d6bc91bccc84b53 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Richard Chubb Subject The topic of the resource Experiences as a principal in area schools. Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Richard Chubb Interviewer: Sarah Swenson Date: 6 April 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 40:42 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6 April 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Richard L. Chubb; Sarah Swenson Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChubbRichard2 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2708/BennettLawrence_[compressed].mp3 dce4411985970af2bc45096233ad6417 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lawrence Bennett Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lawrence Bennett Interviewer: Sarah Swenson Date: 1 April 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 34:39 Transcription prepapred by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1 April 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lawrence Bennett; Sarah Swenson; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BennettLawrence https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra_[compressed].mp3 fe3e8265708b65b47c3e40d9120453fc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra1.1.jpg 304ab7663a211da61fb3acb23f86ceb8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra3.jpg 8086595bf804c90ba2509c1199f688b8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra4.jpg 2c15b00f7a460ce7468baae7b5e21069 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra5.jpg 54d94165dee096749583614e23d64a4c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra7.pdf c049103ae71ac861dc4ea6fa1ef1007b PDF Text Text � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra10.jpg d14bba8acafdc574faf9e04f5a039565 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra2.1.jpg 381b89cecd4b059aaee8700e37fdbd9e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra6.1.jpg 23f0956654648c56488dd9b5ab981d9a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/JordanSandra8.jpg f4cd7b26b56937791ff7b0a1ac0c3059 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2707/Jordan_Sandra_Smith_Oral_Histories.pdf d7c0e94572f486161f2a7d6b446bb775 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Sandra Smith Jordan Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Dorian Meekins CL: My name is Carla Mathis Lewis and I’m the branch manager at the Gainsboro Branch Library. Today is March 9th, 2009 and I am interviewing Sandra Smith Jordan. Good morning Sandra. SJ: Good morning Carla. CL: Can you tell me where you were born? SJ: I was actually born here in Roanoke, Virginia. At the Old Burrell Memorial Hospital. I was born December 7th, 1948 to Lula Virginia Cambell Smith, Campbell was her maiden name, and my dad’s name is James William Smith Sr. I say senior because I have a younger brother who is James William Smith Jr. CL: How long have you lived in Roanoke, Virginia? SJ: All of my 60 years. I turned 60 December of 2008 and I have actually loved and lived here all that long time. CL: And what street did you live on? SJ: I was actually born when they were living at 623 Loudon Ave. I now know that that was an area of town that very few blacks lived in, but that’s where they were at the time when I was born. My dad worked at the flour mill over at Shenandoah like two blocks away and I always thought he actually worked in the flour mill and found out later in years, he was the chauffeur of the man who owned the flour mill, so. I was wondering how he got to drive some of them pretty cars, but I just thought he had money, y’know. And my mom, she actually cleaned houses and, y’know, worked for people that way, but with the snazzy clothes she wore, I thought she had a lot of money too. Back then– I don’t know, Roanoke for me growing up was a magical place because I can remember, on Henry Street, Sunday that was showcase day. We would go and kinda line the street to watch the beautiful women in their hats and their beautiful dresses and the men tipping their hats to them and stuff and all I could think of was “Oh my goodness, I be glad when I’m old enough to do that.” And never would I have imagined life would change for me, but it did. Integration hit Roanoke and everything I thought to be true, I found out wasn’t, y’know. Segregation wasn’t a bad thing for me because everybody I saw was living well, doing well. From a child’s standpoint, I don’t what it actually was. And it was like– The black teachers I had, these women carried themselves with such dignity and stuff. I always thought I wanted to be one. I had no idea that the life that I perceived the blacks in Roanoke to have was what the rest of the country was trying to get to, y’know. We were like in this little balloon I guess or a little cocoon and it just– When I heard about– Carla I was 40 years old before I found out that Danville, Virginia, only 75 miles away from us, was one of the biggest hotspots during Civil Rights. And I considered myself to be an intelligent, y’know, educated black woman and I saw “Eye on the Prize” [on] PBS and it blew me away. You only know the information somebody allows you to get your hands on. And since I had lived my whole life here in Roanoke, I didn’t �know how sheltered they had made this little valley. Y’know, they only let in what Roanoke Times and Rural News wanted you to see and the same people who owned the newspaper owned the media. If they didn’t want it in here, you didn’t know about it unless somebody from somewhere else did. So yes, I love Roanoke. I’ve been here all my life. CL: Do you have any sisters or brothers? SJ: I actually– And we’re not talking about the siblings that came in my life after my father died, but my mother had six children. She had three by Percell Johns, her first husband and that would be Cody, Percell Jr., and Johnny Johns. Then she had one by her second husband, his name is Walton Lester Jr., but we call him “Booty” and then I came along. I was the fifth and my dad is James Smith, that was mom’s third husband and 19 months after me, my baby brother. So she actually had six kids. And after years later, I think I was about 13, she married her late husband William Bowers. She was Cambell-Johns-Lester-Smith-Bowers. CL: And your baby brother’s name? SJ: Is James William Smith Jr. He’s my daddy’s junior child. CL: Describe your house to us. Did you have a two story house? A brick house? Did it have a TV? A telephone? SJ: Well, the house we lived in, 623 Loudon, was a two story house. We had [a] nice backyard and frontyard. Yes we were one of the firsts to have a TV. My mom and dad because of the jobs they had, like when the white people they worked for were gonna get something new, they would either sell or give what they had to my parents. So we always had these nice things and, y’know like I said, I always just thought we had money, but it wasn’t y’know. In this world though, bartering is something that, back in segregation time, you didn’t really look at things from the money aspect of it. It’s like “Well Carla, you know how to do such and such and I know how to do this so I’ll do this for you and you do this for me” and nobody ever talked about the money part of it. At least, from a child’s standpoint, this is the way I perceived it. Where we lived at, like, Ford’s Gas Station was right in the backyard from us. So I could go from my back porch down to Ford’s and they had everything little kids wanted. That’s on one corner, then on the next corner, it was– I think it was Mr. Moses’ Store? I’m not sure, but all this I could look out my back door and it’s right there for you. Not like today, you didn’t have to go miles to get to the grocery store, you’d just come out your back door and there you are. Down on 5th Street it was a drug store on one corner and a little grocery store on another. When it came to clothes and stuff– I just don’t understand how our world got away from the neighborhoods because everything you wanted was in our neighborhood. Loudon Elementary School, right up the street two blocks. And it’s like overnight, all of a sudden, as soon as I started school, that was Loudon, that was my first grade. And, I mean, the teacher that I had and I can’t remember her name, but it was Coach Cannaday’s last wife and I wish I could remember her name because that was the lady that I emulated, okay. She’s still alive today, but she just– She had a way with kids that made you feel like you was special, even if you were a little bad thing. She had a calming effect to just “Now come on honey, you know that’s not really what you want to [be] doing.” “Oh my goodness! That’s what I wanna be, just like her.” And to this day she tells me “You were one of the best �students I ever had.” Because really, as far as I was concerned, she was perfect really. She was beautiful, she carried herself like she liked herself, y’know, and it was like– Well this is what black women are supposed to be like. Yeah. Everything in that neighborhood was wonderful for me, but my mom and dad and their lifestyle, they divorced each other when I was two years old and my baby brother and I go to West Virginia to my dad’s two brothers. I’m at one brother’s house and my baby brother’s at the other one up the street, up the road. And my sister, she ends up in Northeast with my mom’s mom. My two brothers, Johnny and Buddy, they end up in Bluefield, West Virginia and my other brother Booty, he ends up in Northeast with his grandmother. So we [were] all over the map. I don’t know what went on during the time we were away, but eventually my parents decide to get back together and I’m thinking “Oh everything’s right in the world again”. By the time I’m seven years old, 1956, a year that I thought would never end, so much crazy stuff happened. They get divorced a second time. I mean it’s bad enough to go through a divorce one time with your parents, but to have them do that to you twice. I just, y’know, young kids today, they can think of a time when they were a child. I honestly can’t and the reason why I say that is because it seems like, even before I was born, I was selected to watch over my mom. And I say it that way because when she was three months pregnant with me, they had to put her in the bed. She had to stay in the bed until I was born. After I was born, I can actually remember them putting me in the dresser draw as a– Because there was no bed for me, but I had to be in the same room where she was and I can remember that and people tell me “Nah, you couldn’t remember that. Kids don’t remember.” You need to be careful about what you say and do around young people. They can’t articulate it, but they know what’s going on. And I would tell momma and them years later about things that I remember going on in that room and it’s like “No, you were a baby. You don’t know that.” I said then why are you getting so upset if I don’t know that? I mean when my mom would get in trouble and she had a tendency of doing that because she wanted to be loved so badly, but she would always get mixed up with the wrong men. And I used to tell her “Y’know, I love you, I really do, but I need to tell you are a good example for me of what not to do because the men that you will lay on your life, and you have children, the men that you have in your life I wouldn’t even give the time of day. So I appreciate you showing me what not to do. And it’s not that I don’t love you, it’s just, I’m having to love you for you, y’know. I’m having to do your job for you.” And my sister and my brothers used to always argue with me, “Who do you think you are? You can’t talk to our momma that way. You can’t treat our momma that way.” I said, look, she’s my momma too and I’m sorry if you don’t like it, but sometimes she needs to hear the truth. She doesn’t need to be in no fabricated world that y’all people want her in. She needs to know when she’s messing up as well as when she’s doing something good. “Well, if you live to be 18.” I mean I heard that so many times from, especially mom’s little buddies because mom was– She would give you the shirt off her back if she considered you to be her friend and when she needed help, they were never around. And even at a young age I did not have a problem letting them understand; “You need to understand something. That’s my momma and if you won’t watch her back, I will. And bottom line, my future depends on how well I keep this lady stable because everything around �her is unstable. And y’all keep telling me I won’t live to be 18. If I let y’all run the show with her, I know I won’t make it to 18. So when I step in, don’t give me no flack because she needs me.” And up until when she died last year, it was always that way. My main purpose on this earth turns out from my going back over my life of being there for her. When things turned around and her health went down, the only person that was there to help her want to stay here was me. I actually– The night that she died, I actually had to give her permission to go because they had diagnosed her 11 years earlier with Alzheimer’s and I kept trying to tell them, I don’t think my mom has Alzheimers. She is taking medication, and I used to be a pharmacist helper up at Super X so, the type of medication they had her on was the type that if she didn’t take it she should have died. That’s how strong it was and there were time when I knew she didn’t take it right. And I’m saying, “Y’know, you’ve given her medication for a heart problem. There’s no way she could have that kind of a heart problem if the medication isn’t administered right. You’ve given her medications for cholesterol, you’ve given her–” It was seven medications they had her on that she didn’t need, but when you’re on the wrong medications, you do end up with dementia. Now she did have that, but Alzheimer’s kills you, dementia just makes you wish you were dead. And my mom had allowed my brother Johnny and his girlfriend to live in the house with her so she would have somebody there, but they were just living off of her. They weren’t helping her. And she called me one day and she said “Sandra, I know you got your own problems,” Because I was already on disability by this time. She said “But they’re calling me paranoid and I don’t think I am and nobody’s listening to me and I need you to talk for me.” And I’m saying to myself; she never asks me for anything unless she really needs it so I better check this out. And I go up there and she’s telling me “Somebody’s coming and going in my basement door. When I tell Johnny and them about it; ‘No it ain’t happening.’” And I went down to the basement door and it was unlocked and she said, she swore she had locked it. What it was; my brother and his girlfriend were using that door coming and going and wasn’t telling her. So this is, I guess the Lord’s way of getting me up there with her because I ended up staying there during the day until my health went down and she said “Y’know, I think you need to put me in an assisted living because I don’t want you to kill your brother and I don’t want to kill him either.” And mom loved guns. And when she went into assisted living, that’s the only way I got her doctor to understand they had her on the wrong medication because those people were crushing her medication to get her to swallow and this is time release medication. He took her off of that, come to find out the only thing she needed was blood pressure medication and they didn’t even have her on it. She got better, but not better enough that– Y’know if they gon’ label you with something, they gon’ keep you on that label and 11 years go by. But everyday, unless I was sick, everyday that woman saw me. In assisted living and in the nursing home. CL: The assisted living place was in Greensboro or Roanoke? SJ: No, the one up here on Williamson Road. CL: So it was here in Roanoke? SJ: Yes. It’s Roanoke Assisted Living now, but I wanna say Lakeview? Friendship Manor owned it, but it’s the one where they ended up having that flesh eating disease. It came in a day after she �had to go to the hospital for somebody hitting her in the head. I said, “Well thank you momma. You weren’t there the night that this stuff broke out because it wouldn’t have affected you, it would have gotten me,” y’know what I’m saying? But she went from the hospital into Friendship Manor, but the night she died when I got to the nursing home, they had just fed her and I knew she didn’t look right and she was so happy to see me and the girl grabbed the tray and went out. And I’m looking at her and I’m a little puzzled and I said “Momma do you need to go to the bathroom?” And she let me know, yes. Well as I’m taking her to the bathroom and I got ready to put her on the toilet she said “No!” Real loud, real strongly that no, don’t do that. And I said “Okay, okay. What’s wrong?” And she started regurgitating and I knew then it was food poisoning, but they tried to tell me “Oh no, no, no, no.” I said, “Look, I’ve had food poisoning, whatever you fed her,” and they had given her chicken that had set out too long. Well, this is at 6 o’clock, from 6 o’clock until almost 11:30 I was there administering to her. Couldn’t get no help from nobody. “Well she just gotta do what she gotta do.” A brother, baby brother Jimmy came in, he’s helping me, but both of us are so drained that by 11:30 I really had to go home. And he’s also on disability his self and he was feeling the effects and I told mom, I said “Y’know, everyday you wait until I can get to you and I love you for it, but I need you to understand something. If they wait until I leave tonight and they put you in the hospital, every time you’ve had to go to the hospital in the past two years, I’ve made it there somehow to be with you, but I won’t be able to make it tonight.” I said, “If you are tired– At the rate these people are treating you, and I see you every day, at the rate that it’s going, I might end up in the ground before you do.” I gave her permission to die. CL: It’s okay. SJ [crying]: I told her that if she was tired, she should go ahead and go to sleep, and she went to sleep. At 5 o’clock in the morning they called me to tell me she was gone and I know it was best for her and for me, but it still hurts because she went through all this stuff during her life and I know everybody has their own path to go, but it still– it hurts. And it’s really fascinating that I’m 60 years old and yet, in still, the majority of my life was revolved around taking care of her or my siblings or somebody else and I’m just now getting to a point where I’m taking care of me. Y’know, it’s– It’s fascinating. It’s– I wake up every morning and I look out my bathroom window and I see the Blue Ridge Mountains and the only thing I can think of is “Damn, you live in a wonderful place.” Because if I’m sad, the mountains say to me “But it’s gon’ be okay.” If I really get angry, pissed off, I go up to Mill Mountain Star and I yell my head off. Then I look down at the little teeny cars and trucks and it’s like, well, when you were down there it felt real bad didn’t it? And now your up here in God’s country and it’s like, okay, alright. You let it go so that’s the end of that part of it. CL: Let’s talk a little bit about your schooling. You started out talking about your elementary school? SJ: Yes, at Loudon Ave. and that was– I lived in 6– That was in 800, block of Loudon. Now I’m not sure if the reason I ended up at Harrison was because my mom and dad divorced and she had what was called primary custody and her address was Rutherford or– Because I was still living �on Loudon with my dad so I would walk from Loudon Ave over to Harrison. My mind says that the summer between first grade and second grade is when they tore down Loudon Ave. I mean, I can’t find any[thing] about it to justify the date for me. I do remember the summertime, they had painted the school and got it all ready for the next year, but there was never a next year. So I don’t know if that’s actually when integration stuff started rolling or what, but I do know I couldn’t go back to that school and I ended up at Harrison and I went to Harrison School from the second grade through the sixth grade. CL: Okay, and then you went too? SJ: Booker T. Washington Junior High School. Ah! And I say it that way because that was– Y’know I told you, I had all these wonderful anticipations about becoming of age. Y’know, being able to go to Henry Street’s nightclubs, The Ebony Club and all this other stuff. And once you got to Booker T., that was your introduction to becoming an adult, y’know. That’s when we had our socials and it was just a sign of, y’know, you’ve made it through this, now you come into this part of it. And there was teachers there that would actually talk to you like you were a person. Like Ms. Deskins for instance. I will always be grateful to this lady because my mom never talked to me about things like menstruation, how girls are supposed to mature. I was in a household full of men, y’know, brothers. All I was there for was taking care of everybody else, but Ms. Deskins talked to me as woman to woman. She talked to me like she knew I was gonna be somebody. So here’s another teacher in my life that made me feel like, maybe I should be a teacher, y’know, because my first grade teacher, she carried herself in a way that– Yeah I’d like to be like that. Then here’s Ms. Deskins, talking to me in a way that– not down to me, but the fact that she respected the fact [that] I had a brain, I had something to say, and she was willing to listen. And then I had to opportunity of being in the choir with Ms. Hunt and you talking about a woman that could make you feel like you were better than what you thought. That woman, she could listen to your voice, “Oh you should be a soprano. Oh your voice is changing, we’re gonna make you second soprano.” And I’m going like “Well you ain’t heard me sing yet.” “No honey, I’ve being doing this long enough where–” I mean, those [were] the kind of teachers I had at Booker T. Washington and I thought all was right in the world, but this is still segregation time, okay, for me. Come the summer after the 8th grade and I get this notification. Now we had moved from Rutherford Ave to 22nd Street in a predominantly all white neighborhood and I had never heard a person use the word “nigga” before, like white people use it until we moved up there. And this letter says that, due to your address, you will not be going to Lucy Addison, which– That’s where you went to in the 9th grade back then. You will be going to Monroe Jr. High School on 19th Street. Well, I didn’t know what hell was until that year. And the very first day of school, there is this table out front with people from the health department– No it’s the second day of school. And the first day of school they had allowed one little white girl in the school that had lice. The second day of the school they got the health department up there. Now, black kids don’t get lice, okay, but they got this long table and they had these little people on either side that tells you you[‘ve] got to go to this table and they got this man on the other side of the table with this long nozzle and he goes “Wshhh! Wshhh! Wshhh!” He’s shooting some kind �of powder in your hair, in your pubic area, under your arms. Any place there may be hair they are “de-lice-ing” you as he says. And I said “But excuse me, well how do you know that I got lice?” He said “Doesn’t matter. The school’s been infested.” I said “This is [the] second day of the school, what do you mean?” “What do you mean? Talking back to me, nigga.” And I’m going like; we ain’t in Kansas no more is we? They did not allow us to go home, we had to sit in that school for the school day with this powder on us. That was my first experience with being around white folks. And I had been around white folks, with the ones my mom and them worked for, but I hadn’t been around these kinda white folks. And, okay, I’m surviving that and get into the second week of school. Now Ms. Deskings had been my gym teacher and I didn’t know how good we had it at Booker T. because we had the stalls that, y’know, went all the way down to the floor. What you did in yours was private, put it that way. And she always told us to use our little flip flops and to take care of yourself and protect yourself. I get up there and they have the stalls that, y’know, the bottom part of it, what’s in one can go into the other. I got on all– everything I ever used at Booker T. and I get athletes feet from the girl in the other stall because the stuff off of her nasty feet pop onto my little clean feet in my flip flops and I get athletes feet. It’s the second week of school. It is so bad for me. I don’t have an immune system to combat white people’s germs because I have never been around them. They had to put my feet in what they call mini-casts to save my toes and I had to be educated at home for eight weeks. Athletes feet. I mean it blew my mind and I’m saying, well maybe they won’t make me go back to school. Well, [as] soon as the doctor releases me I’ve got to go back to school. Well, it’s like– What else? Be careful of what you ask, okay? Because when I said “what else can happen to me after this”, I had no idea what was coming down the pipe. I’d been– let’s see. I was in school for less than a month and they let this little kid come back to school with what they call the kissing disease, but what is mononucleosis. And for me, that diagnosis meant being in the hospital for close to a month, had to have two spinal taps to save my life, ended up paralyzed for two weeks because they nicked my spinal column with one of those needles, and to have the doctor tell my mother “Well, I’m sorry, but she will never be able to hold down a job. She will never be able to have children. You will be lucky if she makes it to be an adult.” And I’m going like what is this? Somebody’s joke? Y’know? Here I am in the 9th grade and just because I’m made to go to school around these people, I gotta be punished like this? I don’t think that’s fair. And I decided after that, I ain’t taking no more of this stuff. I had a very short time back in the school before the end of the year, but I had [an] English teacher. Now I loved English because of the teachers that I had had in the past. I had an English teacher to tell me “If you get anything out of this class, you’ll be lucky.” And she gave me her teacher’s manual, I still have it today. She said “If you learn anything, you better use this because this is the only way you’re gonna get it.” And she really did me a favor because I used it even when I went to college. I used her little book and I gave it to my sister when she went to college and I’d given it to other people for them to use. So, I’m glad she did give me her little book. But she and the other teachers definitely let me know; “We ain’t teaching you nothing.” She had the audacity to tell me “Hey, you niggas wanted what we got, now get it the best way you can.” And I told her “Hey, it’s nothing that you people have �that I want. The court system said I had to come here, I wanted to go to Addison. I was an honors student before I came up here. I was supposed to be having Algebra II. You tell me, you don’t get Algebra II until you get in high school. So you give me something called new math that you people didn’t even know what it was. Half the answers in the book were wrong.” “Well, see, y’all want what we got.” I said “No ma’am, I’m sorry. There’s not anything y’all have that I would ever want, but whatever. Y’all do the best you can.” Do you remember Judge Ballou? He was the head judge over all the judges Downtown. This is when the municipal building used to be the courthouse and the jail. My first interaction with him was that summer after the 9th grade. I told my mom, I said “Look, I’mma be perfectly honest with you. I know that by law I’m supposed to go to school, but I want you to honestly know I will leave your house every morning like I’m going to William Fleming and I will come back every evening like I went to that school, but honestly I’m going to be able to find me a job somewhere because I’m not going to that school.” And she said “So what do you want to do?” I said “The law says I gotta go, but I’m not going to.” She said “Well then the law’s gonna have to tell you where you can go.” I said “Well I wanna go to Addison.” She said “Well okay, fine.” So she got a lawyer, we went before Judge Ballou and he said “You need to explain to me why you’re in front of me.” And I said “I’m in front of you because the law says I have to be.” He looked at me and he said “Do you know who I am?” I said “No. Who are you?” He said “Can’t you read?” And I looked at his little sign in front of him and I said “You’re Judge Ballou. How do you do?” “Well, I do fine and who are you supposed to be?” I said “My name is Sandra Lee Smith, that’s who I am and I guess I’m in front of you because the law says I have to go to William Fleming High School and I say I will leave my momma’s house everyday like I’m going, I’ll come home every evening like I went, but I’m not going to William Fleming High School.” And I told him what I just told you about what I went through at Monroe and he just sat there and calmly looked at me and he said “You know what you want don’t you?” I said “No I know what I need and I don’t need to be around, excuse my French, anymore of you white people. I just– my body won’t survive the issue.” And he looked at me and he said “Well, you might be right because I’ve never heard of somebody going through as much medical trauma and you went through [in] not even a year.” He said “So, if I let you back in at Lucy Addison High School, what’re you gon’ do?” I said “What do you want me to do?” He said “I want you to be the best student you can be. Can you do that?” And inside I’m saying to myself “This man is gon’ let me go. This man is gon’ let me go back to Lucy Addison. Yes!” And evidently he could tell it from my body reaction and I said “For you, yes. I will be the best student I can be.” And he said “Okay, alright. Here you go.” He signed my little petition and gave me permission to go and I’m elated, but to show you how quickly things change; in less than three weeks after that first visit with him, my mom had to have an emergency hysterectomy. Well, she was married to a 100% disabled veteran and she was his legal guardian and anytime she could not be in charge somebody else had to be made his guardian. Well, here I go back before Judge Ballou because I presented such a strong case for myself before. At 15 I become my mom, my baby brother, and my step-father’s guardian and I had to be given a special driver's license. So Judge Ballou says “You know you’re gonna have to drive your mom’s car.” I said �“Well, to be honest with you, I’ve never had driving. I’m only 15, can’t have it.” He said “No, I make that determination.” He said “I’m going to send you to get the driver’s test. I’m going to allow you x number of days to study. If you pass the test I’m gonna give you your license.” And I’m saying to myself at 15, yeah right. Well, I took the test, I passed the test so at 15 I had a driver’s license and now my mom’s got in and my step-father’s got in and my baby brother’s got in. So I’m running everything. CL: Were you allowed to go to school? SJ: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And see, when I was at Booker T., I liked it so much I would summer school, m’kay. Well by the time I got to 10th grade I actually had enough credits to graduate, but nobody told me that you had to have 11th and 12th grade English, Government, and US History. If I had known that I would have taken those during summer school and I could have graduated in 10th grade, but since they didn’t tell me that, I had to go to school to take those courses. Well, because I really didn’t have but certain mandatory electorates that I had to take, the rest of the time was like taking typing and stuff like this and the other kids couldn’t understand “Well why is it [that] Sandra doesn’t have to take tests like we do?” Well Sandra’s been typing up your tests so she can’t take the same tests that you take. So the teachers would orally give me my tests. My 20th class reunion I found out what my nickname was with the other kids. They used to call me little old lady and now I understand why, y’know. “Well you used to drive to school, nobody else could drive to school. You used to this and you used to that.” Well, you do what you have to do, y’know what I’m saying? CL: Well when did you fit college into– Graduating– Well not graduating in the 10th grade, but completing 10th grade and maybe the 11th grade because people had to take– SJ: No, I finished high school. CL: You finished high school, okay. SJ: Yup, when I was– I got pregnant right before my senior year started and right toward the end of the year– Well, in March of the next year, I’m about ready to deliver my baby and Mr. Phillips and I had already set up everything for me to graduate, but Mr. Coleman, the assistant principal, decided to pick a fight with me. I did not like his attitude. “Didn’t nobody tell you to lay there and get pregnant.” And I told him, I said “Y’know, I’m not sure how you got your job, but you really don’t have the right personality for it and because of you, I would like for you to send my money for my gown, pictures, dues, whatever else I’ve given you money for, back to my mom’s house because I won’t be graduating from this school.” And he did not allow Mr. Phillips to know that we had had that argument until after graduation and Mr. Phillips did not know what had happened and he convinced me to go back to summer school to take my last two credits and I did and graduated from summer school. No, I wasn’t gon’ let that man keep me from graduating, it was just– No, you don’t talk to me that way, especially not when I’m getting ready to deliver a baby, no. Emotional, all over the place. CL: So and then after you had your son? Is it? SJ: Yes, that was James Clinton Smith, that was my first son. Well, to be honest with you, I did not decide to go to college until– I think I was 32 years old; 31, 32 years old. And this is after �losing a child, having another child, being married, and then divorced. And TAP, I have to credit for me going to college because they had this JOMP program and one of their directors used to be a regular customer of mine at Super X Drugs on 19th Street and she just kept telling me “I think you would really do good in college.” And I said “Well what am I gonna go to college for. I’m already a mother of two kids–” Blah blah. This, that, and the other. She said “But I really think you have something that you need to finish, don’t you?” Of course like, like what. She said “I don’t know. What did you think you wanted to do when you were in school?” And I said “Well, while I was in school I had been taking this stenotype course through the mail and I always thought I might want to be a stenotypist in the court system.” And she said “Did you finish it?” And I said “No, I got pregnant and didn’t get a chance to finish it.” And she said “Well, they have that course out at Virginia Western. Why don’t you finish that and then see what you might want to do after that?” And I’m going like, well y’know I do books for Super X and stuff and that takes up a lot of my time. She said “No seriously, just think about it.” Well I decided to take their little course to see if I was college material and I aced that and I’m going like “that wasn’t so hard” and she said “Well, that’s what I’m trying to get you to understand. It’s not as hard as people want you to think it is.” So we went out to Virginia Western and I enrolled out there under their Secretarial Sciences course, but the lady who was supposed to be teaching the course, [the] stenography course, left the area. So, instead of just dropping out, I went on and finished a year. Then I transferred to National Business College because they did have the course and that was a pretty good experience for me, but the manager that I had at Super X, because this little black girl was going to college, decided he was going to cut my hours and cut them all the way down to nine hours a week. And I told him “Look, I need you to understand something. I’m not trying to better myself to go after your job. If I wanted anybody’s job it would be your boss’ job, not your job.” I said “You need to understand something here; I’m raising two sons and I cannot do that off of nine hours a week.” “Well you need to drop out of school.” I said “And who are you to tell me what I’m supposed to do?” I said “Now the last election, you almost got your ass whooped my me.” Because this man waits until 6 o’clock, knowing that the polls closed at 7. He leaves the store and the only person there other than the pharmacist is me, so I couldn’t leave until he came back. He comes back five minutes after 7, knowing I could not go to the election polls, knowing how I felt about that. And at first I was going to lay his butt out, but I had people who– Customers who knew how I felt about me voting and they laid into this man where I didn’t have to say a thing, okay. But when he did that, the manager up at– Dan Hale, he was the manager up at Kentucky Fried Chicken, he offered me a job up there and he said he would work my hours around me going to school. So I quit Super X. I went up there. I ended up finishing my court stenography class and stuff. Well, it was legal secretary, what I ended up getting an associate degree as. But Judge Ballou again ended [up] being in my life because every day we had to go to his court, y’know, for practice. He pulled me to the side one day and he said “Sandra, let me ask you something. I’ve been in your life for a long time.” He said “I know you love the Roanoke Valley.” I said “Yeah, I do.” He said “Well you are aware that once you get your degree for this court stenography course, that you’re probably gonna have to relocate to �Richmond, DC, one of the larger areas. We’ve got two ladies here that have been doing this for the past 20 years and they’re not ready to retire and we don’t have openings for new people.” And I said “Really? Well why ain’t you tell me that a long time ago?” And he said “Hey, I didn’t think you were– Y’know, according to the doctors, you weren’t supposed to be able to have kids or anything so I didn’t think you were gonna stay in the valley.” And I said “Well, what do you suggest I do?” He said “Well, instead of court stenography, why don’t you transfer it to legal secretary. You can still use, y’know, that kind of shorthand. But there are plenty of jobs around here for legal secretaries.” So through his guidance again in my life, I was able to change, y’know, what I was doing. But, y’know, it shows you how you might have one bad white person and then you got a good white person and it depends on the person. Regardless of the color. So I ended up getting my degree as a legal secretary and I used the– what do you call it. I’ve used what I learn, but I’ve found out that just because you get a degree as one thing, that’s not necessarily what you’re supposed to do. Because I ended up being a district manager at the Roanoke Times Rural News. And growing up in Roanoke, you know the Roanoke Times and Rural News ain’t have nothing good to say about black folks, but here I am, a disgruntled parent– Now I had already passed the state board for [an] insurance agent, so I’m an insurance agent for North Carolina Mutual. [I] had no intentions of working at the newspaper, but my son gets a paper route; his district manager messes over him. They send a letter saying they’re taking my son and me to court. They’re gonna sue us for the money he supposedly owes. Well hey I’m a bookkeeper. Don’t you think I’m keeping my son’s records? So I take the records down to the office and I show this man why my son doesn’t owe this money and he says “Can you hold on just a minute?” And he goes [to] get his boss and they come back and “Are you looking for a job?” I said “Do I look like I’m looking for a job? I came down here to do you a favor. I want you to understand I don’t owe this money. You can take me to court if you want to, but Judge Ballou and I are very good friends. I’m trying to do you a favor.” “Yes ma’am and you’re doing a very good job because after reviewing your records and stuff we found out we owe you x number of dollars back because your son never got his discounts for paying on time” and blah blah blah and all this stuff. I said “Well thank you, I appreciate it. I can use the money for gas.” “No, seriously, would you like a job.” I said “No I wouldn’t, I already have a job.” “But this is a part time job, it will only take a few hours a day. It’s only– It’s such a small area” and blah blah blah and all this stuff and I said– Just trying to be nasty, okay? I said “Yeah right. Sure, I want your job.” I mean I wasn’t saying I want a job, I’m just saying; I’m a black person and you[‘re] offering me a job? This is Roanoke Times and Rural News, yeah sure. And the next day I get a call saying “We need you here by 4 o’clock to sign your papers.” And I’m going like “Sign my papers for what?” “You accepted our job yesterday.” So here I am. I’m an insurance agent, got too many things to do to begin with because, as an insurance agent, me and my big head, the so-called supervisor I had didn’t like the fact that I didn’t like to sell insurance and I had offered to quit a couple of times. I actually threatened to quit and the guy from Durham, North Carolina comes up here and says “Look, if we enlarge your collecting right, would you stay on as a collecting agent and you only sell if you want to sell?” I said okay because I didn’t realize that �they have what is called an __(??), which means people that stay behind on their insurance. They expect for it to be like 40 to 50%. Well, mine was like 9%. I had no idea that that was such a big thing, y’know, and he says “But because you’re gonna be a collecting agent, the 300 and some people that you have, your book will actually be 1,500 policyholders.” I said “How [do] you expect me to deal with 1,500 policyholders in a month?” He said “But you don’t have to sell. You just have to keep what you got.” Well, here I am with this great big collecting book, now I got this part time job at Roanoke Times and Rural News. That’s when I learned that prayer works because I told the Lord, I said “Y’know what? I have worked jobs making less that $5,000 a year and they took a lot of work and if you help me figure out a way to intertwine these things, I think I could do it.” Because they were in the same area, mostly where I grew up, Northwest Roanoke. Well, what I did was to use the Post Office, get a lot of rows of stamps and I went to each and every one of my customers that I knew didn’t necessarily need me to collect and I let them know they’d be doing their agent a wonderful favor if they would mail the money to her because they used checks and the ones who didn’t use checks, I did continue to see them, but out of 1,500 people, I only personally had to collect from 150 people. The rest of them did their agent, who they liked, a wonderful job of mailing the money to me. And since the newspaper paper routes were in the same area, when I needed a carrier for the paper route I just took my little butt out there delivering papers. “What is my insurance agent doing out here? My son needs a job, can you give him a job?” I said “Is he 12 years old?” “He’s 13.” “Is he willing to listen and take instruction?” “If he gets it from you, yes.” I said “Well yeah, I’ll give him a job. I’ll give him a try.” I mean, when you pray the Man always comes through, especially if your name’s Sandra. He’s always watching my back so what can I say? CL: Okay Sandra. When you were small, even when you were in high school, where did you buy your clothes? Were you able to go to the shops Downtown? SJ: To be honest with you, most of my stuff, my sister Cody, it was hand-me-down stuff. I don’t remember us actually, as you say, going shopping. She probably did, but for me, no. When I got pregnant with my first child, my mom was gonna buy me this maternity dress that she saw down at Heironimus. It was $85 for one dress and I looked at her and I said “No disrespect, but I’m not gon’ be pregnant forever, y’know? So I tell you what, you give me $85 and take me to the fabric place and I’ll use grandma’s sewing machine and I bet I can make me enough for the whole pregnancy.” And I got this one pattern, a Simplicity pattern that had the slacks with the stomach cut out, the skirt, the shorts, and the top. And then I got one pattern that looked like the dress she was gonna buy. And that one tent dress, I made it out of this real soft wool, I lined it because I’m allergic and it had a roll. Girl, you couldn’t tell me nothing, okay? I thought I was the prettiest pregnant person in the world when I put on that dress. And I had– I made three different colored tops, same top just different colors; the shorts, the long pants, and the skirt. And people thought I had all kinds of outfits just because I switched them up and it cost less than $80 for making all of that and I had no idea I could sew. I mean I used to make stuff for my little dolls, but I really didn’t know that I could sew. But like the lady at the fabric shop told me; if you can read �instructions, if you can follow instructions, you can sew. It’s just a test of your patience. I said, well hey I have plenty of patience so I guess I can sew. CL: Sandra, what is your fondest memory during childhood? SJ: When Henry Street was at its best time for me was when you could go to the movie theater and go across the street to the little store and get this five cent sucker that would last you for days, okay, and it only cost five cents. You could get your hot dogs in the movie theater. Venette’s, do you remember him? Little restaurant? That man made some of the best food. I know I had to be six maybe seven, because my brother Johnny got a paper route and his paper route was actually Gilmer, the street over from that, Loudon Ave adjacent to Henry Street, and Henry Street. That was his paper route. Now a lot of people would have thought “that’s too dangerous, you don’t want that.” Well, he carried Gilmer and the next street over, I carried Loudon Ave and Henry Street. And I know that the Lord is always watching over me because there were people who– Other people would cross the street, okay, they did not want to be around them because they considered them dangerous. They would walk me and make sure that I was safe. I had people with their lights on because they knew this was the time of morning that this little girl would be bringing that paper. And when we got through carrying the papers– Now Venette’s was Gilmer and Mormon Road, that little area, he has this little restaurant there. As soon as we passed there, they would have me breakfast waiting there every morning. CL: That is amazing. SJ: I mean that’s my favorite memory because that was showing me how people really cared about Sandra. CL: Your favorite gift? SJ: I’d have to say it was my first child and the reason why I say that– I had gotten to a point in my teenage years of being really disappointed in the world around me so I had gotten suicidal and I had a real frank conversation with the Lord up on Mill Mountain and I told him, I said “Y’know, if this is all it is, I really don’t want to be here. So if you want me here, you’re gon’ have to give me a reason to stay.” Because the stuff at home with my step-mother and my mother, it was just– I was sick and tired of being everybody else’s caregiver. Y’know how you get sick and tired of being sick and tired? Well, I was. And a friend of mine, Rony Gravely and I used to race cars together. I used to race cars. And he was having trouble with his girlfriend who had run off, I was having trouble with my boyfriend who went into the Air Force. We [were] kinda crying on each other’s shoulders and we went to the Lee High Drive In and Paul Newman and Harper was playing. And we [were] consoling each other and I had never let anybody touch me sexual[ly] and we did and I knew at that moment I was pregnant. And everybody [was] acting like “no you didn’t know,” I knew. I knew I was pregnant. Telling myself, no you couldn’t be because this is the only time you’ve done it so no you can’t be. I was. And with all the stuff I went through because it was an ectopic pregnancy, it was in my tubes, and I should have died according to the doctors, but with all that went down to get him into the right place because they were giving me birth control pills to push him out and three doses is what it takes. The first dosage it felt like somebody had their hand– and I’m going like I ain’t taking this no more. Well �the second dosage it was worse except in a different place and something told me, y’know [the] man upstairs, when they got ready to give me the third pill; I said I’m not taking that pill. “Yes you are, yes you are.” I said no, I’m not taking that pill. And by not taking that pill he ended up in my womb in the right place. And well, I knew I went into labor in March, the hospital said “No you’re not in labor. You’ve got this much more to go.” I said “I don’t care how much more I gotta go, my water broke, I’m in labor.” My son was born April 11 by an emergency c-section. I should have died, he should have died, because they let me fall out of the bed in the hospital and Dr. Law told my mom “She won’t make it and the baby’s probably already dead.” And my mom told him straight up “[If] either one of them die, I’mma sue you for everything you got.” So the Lord said no problem. As soon as that child hit, air they heard him all over the hospital and that was my best friend until he died at age 25. So my favorite memory is that young man coming into my life. Taught himself how to use the bathroom. Started talking at 8 months, walking at 8 months. He’d answer the phone telling people “Sandra’s not here, call back.” I believe that’s– Yeah that’s my favorite memory. CL: That’s beautiful. Tell me what you think about the public library, Mrs. Lee if you remember her, the library today. SJ: I remember the library from the time that I was probably 8, 9 years old because I was at Harrison and this is after I had been forced to move from Loudon to live on Rutherford with my mom and my grandmother lived in the 400th block of Rutherford. And my grandmother would take the bus from Downtown, she worked at the State and City building as an elevator operator. When she’d take the bus, she’d come by here. Lotta times she would stop, come by the library and my way of being able to spend time with her, more time with her, I would come from Harrison down here and Mrs. Lee would sit and talk with me and spend time with me and when grandma would get off the bus she’d come in. They’d talk, we’d talk, and then I’d leave with my grandmother. So Gainsboro Library really has been in my life for a long long time and Mrs. Lee– Well she was like a surrogate mom, but she was like that for anybody that needed it. But I liked her because, just like Ms. Deskins, she talked to me as a person. Not a little kid, not somebody that didn’t have an opinion, but somebody that she could exchange thoughts with. I mean, this library really– It’s not like the other libraries in Roanoke. This is a community space, this is a home place. That’s the reason why I was really pleased that when you expanded it, you tied it all into the main place, know what I mean? Because this was a little teeny little thing to begin with, but now it’s– Well, it’s just like your heart, y’know? Use it enough [that] it grows. That’s what I call it, yeah. The heart of the community. A place where, if you wanna get in touch with the community, this is the only library I’d tell you to come to. You can learn a whole lot here. CL: Who were some of the strong community leaders? SJ: Coach Cannaday. That was– Maybe it’s because he married my first grade teacher, I don’t know. But Coach Cannaday and I, up until the day he died. I don’t know if I ever had a class with him or not, I’m not exactly sure why he and I were always so close, but if I never needed a father figure to talk to, if– I don’t know, he was just always somebody watching over me. But in my lifetime, seriously, the black teachers that I had, whether they were actually a teacher of mine �or just in my life through school, I never really had a bad one. And maybe that’s just me because if you didn’t come across right to me, I didn’t have a problem letting you know “I’m sorry, you’re messing up.” I didn’t have a problem letting you know why and for whatever reason, because I was able to do that, I always had a good report with the teachers. Not so much with the kids because they got on my nerves, I’mma tell you. You know you ain’t supposed to be drinking, you know it makes you sick, but you gon’ do it anyway? I mean, just because I had my driver’s license early I was the designated driver for all the so-called hip kids. Like, y’know, y'all are so boring, you really are. “Well don’t you wanna smoke?” No. “Well don’t you wanna drink?” No. “Well what do you wanna do?” I said hey, get you out of my face really. Take you home and you go on and puke into the toilet and stuff. Not my cup of tea. I actually smoked a cigarette one time and it knocked me out for 15 minutes. A group of us decided that we were gonna buy a pack of cigarettes to see how it would do and I said “Well if we’re gonna spend our hard earned money, we’re gon’ get a real cigarette.” So we got a pack of those short Camels and it knocked me out for 15 minutes and I said “I tell y’all what, y’all do what you wanna do, but I ain’t burning my money up.” Especially for something that could knock me out? I don’t think so. CL: How has Roanoke changed in the years, the new years? SJ: Oh my God. I actually can remember picnics and family dinners at my grandmother’s house in Northeast. CL: Your grandmother’s name? SJ: Lula Turner Cambell. And I wanna say it was Gilmer School that was right across in front of her. I’m not sure which elementary school was there, but she had a school right across the street from her house and on the corner was the rec center and all of this is right in spitting distance of my grandmother’s front porch. And because of the blue law, on Sunday, that’s when everybody got together because there wasn’t no malls, there wasn’t no stores open. Everything was done Saturday night so that you could be together Sunday because that was your entertainment. And I mean, I could walk from my momma’s mother’s house around to Rutherford Ave where the post office is now, to my daddy’s mother’s house and nobody would mess with you and I mean, I had to be a real young person during this time. I can remember when they told those people “You gotta move.” It wasn’t no negotiation. It wasn’t no trying to give them a good price for their property. It was you gotta move. Bye. Get out. CL: Was that in North–? SJ: That was Northeast and I remember when my grandmother moved in the 400th block of Rutherford Ave, that was the transition. She had been in that house until I was in maybe the 7th or 8th grade and that’s when they came through again with this “You gotta move. We’re going to make improvements in Gainsboro. We’re gonna remove the hills of Gainsboro.” And that’s when they came in and destroyed Gainsboro. What you see today is what they did, okay? And my grandmother had to move from Rutherford [to] up off of Melrose on Palm and eventually that’s where she died, but she died on a mortgage on the house because she had just got through paying for the one in Northeast. They moved them out. She’d just got through paying for the one on Rutherford and they moved them out. So, y’know, Roanoke has gone through so many changes �in my lifetime, but I would say in the past five years, for the most part, they’ve been doing things that are not so bad. Like the Greenways, for instance. I live on a street where Lick Run, the Greenway for that is and I can remember 15, 20 years ago when they were starting to trying to get the connection between Valley View and over there done and I helped a little bit with that, but I see more– I see better things now than the stuff they used to do in the past. CL: Okay, jobs. What kind of jobs– When you were growing up, what kind of jobs were available to you? SJ: When I was pregnant in the 12th grade I had a part time job at JCPenney. After I had my child, I got a job at Halmode Sewing Apparel down here on Center and because of the dust I ended up with an eye infection so I had to leave there. And I went from Halmode to First National Exchange. They had a check processing division out on Plantation Road and I worked there, but you couldn’t leave until all the checks were processed and I was there one night from like 2 in the evening to 2 in the morning, and this is with a young son at home. And I said, no I can’t deal with this, because that night I was almost abducted by this man that was going along 581 killing women and luckily– Like I said the Lord’s always watching over for me, but luckily I had talked to a police officer earlier that day. They gave me a description of the car and said he’s passing himself off as a police officer and if he gets out of his car, you don’t get out of yours and you pull off until you get to an area where people are. And when I did that, the guy didn’t follow me and I knew that somebody was watching over me, okay. After I was at First National Exchange, I got a job at Super X for the first time and that’s when I was doing their books and cashier, but Allstate had asked me to work there. So I left Super X and went to Allstate and while I was there was when I had my last child. So after I had him, the doctor didn’t want me to work anymore so [for] about five years I was at home. And then they wanted me to come back to Super X to straighten their books back out. So I went back to them until I went to college and then I ended up with insurance and then at the newspaper. But I’mma tell you, when He wants you not to do something, he works things out because Roanoke Times had devised a plan to get rid of people 40 years old or older who had worked for them for 10 years or longer and– I had no idea how devious white people are, y’know, I had forgotten because I had worked down there and though I was friends with these people or whatever, but business is business as they say and they didn’t want me down there, so they worked a way out that– They ended up getting me losing my disability with social security plus I couldn’t get benefits with them because they didn’t give me enough hours and when they decided, “okay we done messed her up enough,” they fired me and told me “You were dumb enough to come back part time and as a part time employee, we don’t need a reason to fire you. If we say we don’t need you; bye. So bye!” CL: Okay Sandra, is there anything else we didn’t cover that you would like to say to us in this interview? SJ: Well to be honest with you, I probably need to do another interview with you because, y’know, it’s a lot of things I’d like to say that we really don’t have time for. And the reason why I put it that way; I got to take my son to work and I don’t know for sure what time it is right now, but I know it’s getting close to it. Yeah, that’s what I figured. �CL: Alrighty. Well I do thank you for interviewing with us today. SJ: Well I’ve had a wonderful day period. This has been a very nice day for me. CL: Thank you. And we will have you back. SJ: Okay. CL: Thank you again Sandra. SJ: You’re welcome. CL: I appreciate the interview, [I] appreciate talking to you. SJ: I appreciate you taking this interview too. CL: I appreciate your love and all that good stuff. SJ: You[‘re] welcome. CL: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Sandra Smith Jordan Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Sandra Smith Jordan Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 9 March 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:26:54 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9 March 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sandra Smith Jordan; Carla Lewis Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JordanSandra https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2706/GillFrancis_[compressed].mp3 77627d803d04b9dc6a17b6357af74203 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2706/GillFrancis.pdf 47ce1a43d19dcebeb06d816390177dd3 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Francis J. Gill Interviewer: Theresa Gill-Walker Transcriber: Andrew Sterling TG: My name is Theresa Gill-Walker and I am here today with my mother, Francis J. Gill to do some oral history that will go into the archives of Gainsboro Library in Roanoke, Virginia. Mom, just a couple of questions to get the formalities out of the way. When and where were you born? FG: I was born in Fairfield, Virginia, the 3rd of September, 1927. TG: Its hard to let that part go, huh? (both laughing) Fairfield, Virginia, which is approximately an hour from Roanoke, right? FG: Yes. TG: Where did you grow up? FG: I grew up in Covington, Virgnia. TG: Which is another hour a different way. FG: Yeah. Going a different way. TG: Did you have any brothers or sisters? FG: No. TG: Were your parents from Fairfield as well? FG: Both of them were from Fairfield, Virginia. TG: You grew up in a home? FG: Yes. TG: Did your family have gardens and all that? FG: My father had – yeah, we had gardens. TG: And apple trees. FG: Yeah. TG: Yeah, love the apple tree. When you were growing up, what type of activities did you participate in? FG: Not many because I was not, as you would say, a sociable child. (Interviewer laughing) But I did a lot of drama. I really did a lot of drama. TG: And theater which is probably where Craig gets it from. FG: Yeah, and did a lot of reading. TG: Weren't you a girl scout? FG: Yep, I was a girl scout. You know, the regular things but as far as sports and stuff was concerned, I didn't go out for that too much basically because of my health which was not really that good and also because I wasn't interested in it. TG: You were independent all the way back then? FG: Yeah, very. TG: Where did you go to school? FG: I went to school at Watson. Watson was straight through school, you know, from 1st grade to the 12th grade. I went to school in Watson in Covington, Virginia. TG: How old were you when you graduated? FG: I was 16. TG: Oh, so you graduated early. You were a brain, huh? FG: I wouldn't say so. TG: Well, you graduated 2 years early. FG: Yeah, well TG: That is a brainiac even by today's standards. Graduating 2 years early. And where did you go to college? FG: I went to college in Dixie Hospital's/Hampton Institute because we took our classes and what have �you at Hampton Institute and we're Hampton Institute Alumni. TG: But you prefer that we call it Dixie, huh? FG: Yes. TG: What did you go to school for? FG: Nursing. TG: Now I remember you telling me when you got out of nursing, you decided you wanted to join the military. FG: Mm mm. TG: How old were you when you got out? FG: I guess I must've been 19, no 20. TG: You were 20. FG: Mm mm. TG: And what year was that, '46? FG: I'm not good at years but I know I was 20. TG: So World War II was over. FG: Yeah. I graduated, I guess I graduated in '45 and I wasn't old enough to join the service. I had signed up for the service. I wasn't old enough to join it so I came to Roanoke and I worked at Burrell Memorial Hospital until I was 21 and I went into the service. TG: So you lived in Roanoke and worked at Burrell Memorial Hospital for a year? FG: I got out of school in March. We graduated in March and I went into the Army like the last of September because I was supposed to go in on the 3rd of September and I had an acute appendectomy and therefore I had to wait until I recovered from that. TG: They gave you a lot of recovery period, more than they do now? FG: Well, you know I was going into the service so I had to be ready for stuff. And while I was at Burrell, I worked with some doctors but the two that I really remember was Dr. Downing and Dr. Claytor. TG: Really! FG: Yes. TG: Dr. Downing and Dr. Claytor. FG: Mm mm. TG: Well, alright Ma! FG: Dr. Claytor was the one that did my appendectomy. I remember him talking to me when I was having a lot of pain and I remember him talking to me and then I stretched out and said, “You can go home now because my pain is gone”. And the next thing I knew, I was on the operating table. That was one of the first things I learned in nursing, after I got out of nursing, was that if the pain leaves, the appendix has burst. That was one of the first things from my – I learned a lot from my illness but that was the first thing that I learned from the illness throughout the year. TG: Wow. Very early. FG: Mm mm. TG: You were a brand new nurse. FG: Yeah. TG: So, what was Dr. Claytor like? Was he tough? FG: No, he wasn't. TG: Was he nice? FG: No, he wasn't. He was – He and Dr. Downing both, they were TG: There were perfectionists? FG: Yeah. They were one of the best doctors out as far as patient and nurse relationships, they were some of the best doctors I worked for. TG: Well, that's saying a lot 'cause you've been nursing over 60- �FG: Over 50-some years. Is it 60 years? TG: Yes, mom. You've been nursing for over 60 years. FG: Right. TG: 61 years to be exact. FG: Well, I stopped nursing TG: You never stop being a nurse and you still have your license. FG: Yep. TG: So you've been nursing for a long, long time. Now, question, you dealt with the hospital side of Gainsboro, but did you ever deal with the party side of Roanoke and Gainsboro? FG: Not really. TG: So you never tipped over to the “yard” as we call it or Henry Street? FG: My connection with Henry Street is when I was still living in Covington because the theater they had – I cannot remember the name of the theater – but it had a movie and a live concert stage and what have you and we would come from Covington and go to that. And then my parents and I and some of the friends from Covington would come over to the hotel and have our meal, which the food was delicious. TG: Really. FG: We had – I remember Henry Street as being very TG: Vibrant? FG: Right, that's the word I need because they had everything. They had music stores. They had hotels. They cleaning shops. They had barber shops. It was – Henry Street was really a thriving area. TG: A thriving community. FG: Right. And I must say, everything was neat. It wasn't TG: Run down. FG: It wasn't just put together. All the stores, all the things and what have you TG: People took pride FG: Were well TG: Well taken care of. They took care of their community. FG: Right. TG: So when you left the area and joined the military, were you nervous about being the only black around going into a field that had just approved for blacks to really come into the military and be given the proper respect after, I think it was, um, after Roosevelt – Who's after Roosevelt? FG: I don't know but I wasn't - Because I had never been taught to be nervous about being the only one. I ended up being the only nurse working at Allegheny Hospital, the only black nurse and I don't think there was ever another black nurse working there. And, I worked at C&O Hospital in Clifton Forge and I was the only black there and it just didn't – When I was in the service, a lot of areas that when I was in Kansas, I was the only black out in my platoon but when I was in Hawaii, there was a few blacks. One was a very good friend of mine and still a very good friend of mine but there was not a whole lot of people for me to associate with which didn't bother me because if I ran into people that were prejudiced, I felt like it was their problem, it wasn't mine. So, therefore, it didn't bother me. I addressed it. Professionally I addressed it but it didn't bother me. TG: Wow. Now that goes back to the conversation that you and I had when we were talking about how independent and strong the women were in our family and through me going back and just sitting around thinking and listening and talking. Something I found very pertinent was you telling me how great-grandma built y'all up that way even though great-granddad was there and he was a vibrant, strong part of the family. Great-grandma seemed determined to make sure that the women had – knew their self-worth. FG: Mm mm. TG: And were proud of it and were strong in it. �FG: Yeah. TG: And didn't because – She says she used to talk to y'all about that even when y'all were little. FG: Mm mm. TG: Sitting on the porch. But she told the men that too, didn't she? She told all y'all that didn't she? FG: Yes, she did. She would do her work and then come out and she would tell us an awful lot of things and some of the main things really stuck with me. How to live. Why you're living the way you're living. How to pick your friends. How to recognize who was friends and who wasn't. And how to solve your problems without violence or hard feelings or what have you. And she also was telling us, regardless of what a person looks like or feels like, you speak to them. You don't have to go down where they are but you can speak to them because you never know who you have to ask for a drink of water. Like she said, “Going up, you don't know who you're going to meet coming down”. 0.12.12.7 TG: Well see, that leads right into something else that I will never forget you taught me this when I was real young. You know, you have to carry your weight, carry yourself in a certain way because you never know who you're gonna see and what walk of life and probably reiterating what grandma taught you because there was nurse that you worked with in Kansas? FG: Oh. (chuckling) The situation. I had come home before being transferred to Kansas, Fort Riley in Kansas and here I am, new 21, I guess I was still 21. And the nurse - There was a person in the seat beside me. I had on my uniform because we had to travel in uniforms but she didn't have on a uniform or anything and we were talking and we talked about everything. And I was telling her how proud I was to be in the service and what have you. And from Covington, Virginia – I guess she got on around Richmond to Kansas. We talked about different things. TG: Are you serious? For that long? FG: Yeah. So, she – when I got to Kansas and got everything in line and we had this large meeting with the director – you know, the new nurses with the director. TG: Director of nurses? FG: Yeah. And so when I went in, the first thing I looked at – I was the only black there and the second TG: You were the only black, for real? FG: In that platoon. And the next thing I looked at was the lady that had traveled with me all that time was the Director of Nurses. TG: So that was like a 2 day ride. FG: And she – That's why I keep telling you all, I could've been on that train, I could've been acting crazy. I could've been doing this. I could've been doing that. And who was I riding with but my boss. TG: Your bosses boss. She was your bosses boss. FG: Yeah. TG: Wow, what an impression you made with her. FG: So you never know who you're gonna have to come in contact with. You never know. See, always carry yourself the way you want to be presented. TG: Exactly. And I have learned that from you. FG: Mm mm. TG: And I have tried to do that and it has come back to me and because I listened to what you said. Its something young people always need to - listen to your elders because they know what they're talking about. Were the first person in the family to go to college? FG: No, I had my uncle, my mother's oldest brother, he went to Hampton. He fell off a roof in Hampton. That was at the time when he went to school when Hampton was being built and part of the students would pay their tuition by working and he was repairing a roof and he fell off the roof. TG: So after great-Uncle Sam, you were the next person to go to college. FG: I guess so. �TG: You were. Out of that big family. That was a big family. And you were the next one to go to college. FG: Mm mm. TG: And that next generation FG: There's a lot. TG: All of us went. Whether the parents went to college or not, the kids went. That next generation. I can't help but think that, you know me, I can't help but think that the family seeing the impact of how your life was changed and bettered and how you were able to change and better the life of grandma and granddaddy through knowledge or whatever, and/or pride did have a strong reflection on our family making sure that our – that their kids follow in your footsteps. You were kinda like the leader for everybody. FG: Well, not really. TG: I don't mean leader as far as martyr FG: Because their parents had the same upbringing that my parents had. TG: Right, but see they saw what you accomplished. FG: Yeah. TG: They didn't go to college but when they saw what you accomplished 'cause you went to college, they made sure that their kids went to college. FG: Yeah, OK. TG: That's what I'm saying is where the difference was made. Because, I don't think from your generation of people who had kids. I think all of us went to college unless we didn't want to go. FG: Mm mm. TG: Unless we didn't want to go or went into the military. You're talking about lots of people now but I don't think any of us hasn't gone to college and its been insisted on. FG: Right. TG: And, so that's an important thing to point out. FG: Mm mm. OK. TG: That's a very important thing to point out to show what you have done has made a difference to an entire family, extended family. I wanted to talk to you about something my son is always questioning. He's heard you give him the history of when you were living in Washington and when Martin was killed. We looked at a documentary about what was going on then but its not as poignant as you hear from someone who was actually there. 0.18.23.6 FG: Well, I was on my way from Washington to Covington because I was working in Washington at the time. And the – I was halfway to Covington and I heard on the radio that Martin Luther King had been assassinated and it was strange because it looked like everything had definitely changed and by the time I got to Covington, everybody was talking about it. Everybody was closed in and what have you and the result – and I could see the change that it made, how people were feeling, sad, don't know where we're going from here, one of our leaders are gone. But what really hit me is when I went back to Washington to work. And going into Washington, I had to show identification in order to get into Washington and on my way to my apartment, 2 or 3 times I had to show identification. This was in the day time I had to show identification and then when I went home and I left for work that night, there were soldiers on just about every corner. There were jeeps around and from my house to the VA, I was stopped at least 4 times to show my identification. I was in uniform. It was a horrible feeling. And 14th Street which was a very prominent street in Washington and for blacks, because most of the things there were owned by blacks and stuff, it looked like a war torn TG: War zone. FG: Zone. And when I get to work, I'm looking, “What in the world” and we had to have – They had to give us identification which I wasn't there and I hadn't gotten it. But they had to give us badges to �wear for at least a week to wear when we were in the street. Not only when we were driving but when we were in the street. But it gives you an idea of what these people – a very, very small idea – about what some of these people are going through when their in a war because that's what it looked like. TG: It felt like a war. FG: That's just what it felt like and soldiers were everywhere. Everywhere. TG: Because people, they got so angry they destroyed their own community. FG: They destroyed their own community. TG: That took decades to build up. And we're still building it up. 0.21.22.9 TG: What do you think the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation has had, what kind of impact do you think its had on the community? Not the world, just the community. FG: I lived in a whole lot of communities, which one are you referring to? TG: I'm talking about Roanoke. 'Cause see you dealt with Roanoke before desegregation and after. FG: Before and then when I came back and worked there. I can't say too much about that because when I come to Roanoke with my children, I had to fight a lot of segregation that you could see and a lot that you couldn't see. A lot that was under politics, under this, under that. And you know I did a lot of fighting then because my children were in school and you know you really had to fight in order to do it. But there were just a - such a few people fighting for the rights of themselves and their children and what have you – and when I say people, I mean blacks – that it really hurt my feelings. Because there was an incident at Fleming and we were trying to get housing for some of the guys that had been involved in this incident TG: Are you talking about the riots? FG: And they – we could not get the parents of the children that was involved in the incident to come out and work with us. There were very few of us. We were called concerned citizens. And then the – finally, we got to a point where we were bringing people in from Washington and in order for us to get somebody to come in from Washington so these children could get schooling, we had to have one of – at least one of the parents name and what we got – what we were finally able to get was one parent. She let us use her name, she was a single parent. She let us use her name and that was – that really hurt. We were successful in what we were trying to do but all these people in Roanoke, AfricanAmerican, Negros, whatever you want to call 'em, and there were like 10 of us, at least 10 of us that they didn't – that would only work with us. So years later, we have my daughter is working to further the education of the children in school and what do we have? We still have 6 to 8 people working to get this done and other people are just not really caring. So I wanna say that it hasn't changed a lot, not in Roanoke. (sigh) 0.25.05.0 TG: What about the Gainsboro community? You know like OK, you felt like you were out there by yourself? FG: There were very few people. TG: And I more than understand that. FG: And now, we do have, we have – well we had it then but it was kinda hard to pull in these people like the Gainsboro to Melrose Library and what have you because they had their jobs and like I say, it became political. So it was hard for them to that. TG: You're talking the people in the Gainsboro and Melrose communities were afraid to come out. FG: Not community, no. I'm saying that the people that worked in the libraries and into things or what have you. I don't know why the people are not involved. TG: Well the people in the libraries were involved though. FG: I said, the people in the library, not the community. TG: Oh. FG: They are working at a lot of things that really work. They are. But where are your children? I'm �talking about children now. They're working at things that are working. They have improved a lot of things that have worked. The libraries, they have kids. They have all kinds of programs and they are helping the children and whatever. What I'm speaking of is when you're fighting for the schools. You're fighting that this don't happen in schools. I'm not talking about the community as a whole, I'm talking about who is fighting for our children. Maybe this is important to me. Its very important to me. But as Roanoke has changed drastically as far as the civil rights is concerned. It has changed and as I say, Henry Street was beautiful. We had everything. But once desegregation took over then we lost. We lost everything. So 0.27.27.8 TG: That boils down to one of my major arguments with desegregation because see we didn't want to be equal but separate but I think one of the arguments that I have that we as Africans in America have done is we have assimilated so much to other things that we didn't have access to that perhaps psychologically, we didn't have access to were better because we didn't have access to them so it was better. And we've lost a lot in our community as far as businesses go. And in losing those businesses, we've also lost FG: A lot of our identity. TG: Our identity and our voice. Because if you look back, if it wasn't for the libraries in the black community, those people who do do something for the community or want to do something for the community, they find each other. At least that's from my experience. We find each other at the library. Especially Gainsboro. We have found each other and branched out to do other thing and our kids are viewing that because they hang out at the library. This is their one safe haven in the community. And they hang out at the library and then they so they're able to see us forming community activism. But it is a small few. FG: But like I said, Roanoke has made strides, they've made great strides from the time I worked here because you went to, if you weren't admitted to most hospitals and if you were admitted, you went to the basement. So it has made an awful lot of – Burrell was the first and I guess the only black hospital that gave a lot of good care but they have branched out. They have – Roanoke has changed drastically. And going to stores and doing this, Roanoke has changed drastically. But I guess the school is the one that bothers me the most. TG: And you feel like the community needs to get more involved in what the school system is doing. FG: Right. TG: Alright, I'll give you that one because you know I know. That's an argument that we always agree on. Isn't that funny? Its actually something that we agree on. And the last thing I wanted to bring up with you I guess is something that I've always looked at is that you have promoted strength as a black woman, as an African-American woman. You have made great strides. We have always gone places and did things where we were the only black family there including going on summer vacations every year from 1966 on when everybody used to say, “Why y'all going on vacation”. And we used to be, “I don't know”. And now that we're grown, we appreciate it through putting 4 girls through college, purchasing your own home and you've done that and I applaud you because you have done that, building up the strength of your black daughters as women and not tearing down black men. As a lot of single women have done that I've seen. So I commend you for that because our black brothers are necessary and important. But I don't think you realize what a major milestone - when I was growing up in Roanoke, I was the only kid I knew in Roanoke or Covington that went on vacation every year. And I'm talking from North to South, from Canada to Florida. FG: Well, I'll tell you what. TG: And these kids came from double parent households. FG: I felt it – I've always felt it was important for children to know other than their community. So when we left in June for 2 weeks, we never went to the same place twice and we spent 2 weeks on the road. Like for instance, we went to Canada. We went on one side of Canada near New York and we �came out by Detroit, Michigan side. We ran around in Canada for all that length of time and we would go one way and come back the other way where we seen a lot. We went to museums. We went to this and that. I was trying my best to give you all a look at life so when you got out there, nothing would be strange to you. You would know how to handle it and what have you. And then it – This was good for us to be together for 2 weeks and not have to worry about nothing. TG: And you did. I remember one year, I had a lot of white friends growing up in Covington and hung out with them as much or more than my black friends who were in my neighborhood. And they started calling me Uncle Tom. Oh my God, they used to tease the heck out of me. And I just played it off. I was like, “And...”. But I'll never forget that year we went to Canada and you took us to Uncle Tom's cabin. And I brought back my little memorabilia or whatever and when I went to go see my friends and they would tease me about being Uncle Tom. Because you had taken me to Canada and taken me to the real Uncle Tom's cabin, I was 12 years old and - that was 36 years ago, good God – and I was able to come back to them and school them on who Uncle Tom really was. And 32 years later, I am still schooling people when they use Uncle Tom in a negative, derogatory manner. I am schooling them on who Uncle Tom was and how he worked with freeing the slaves and this and that. And what they are deriving as a negative regarding Uncle Tom is what Hollywood has displayed to them and again being manipulated by a small populous when it comes to that. So I want to thank you for that because that gave me a lot of strength because you know how much I got teased when I was a kid but that gave me some staying power because I was standing. And they laughed at first. But after a while, I didn't get called Uncle Tom anymore. Because they knew what the real meaning is. So you probably taught a lot of people that summer because I sure was saying it all summer long. Run into the house and getting my stuff that you showed us that we got back, so, you know, you've done some 0.34.27.5 FG: Along with that, I've tried to teach you all about relationship between races. I tried to teach you all to identify with the person, not with the race because that's completely wrong. It has been done to us because one does something they think all blacks do it. And it has been done to us and I've tried to teach you all get to know the people, the person and you don't judge one person by everybody else and I have tried to teach you all that you can relate and be friends with any race. TG: And last but not least, what was your reaction when Obama became president? How did you feel? What did you think about? FG: I had two reactions. I'm very proud, extremely proud. And then my next reaction was, “We have got to pray that this man makes it”. We have to pray to make him strong because they will fight a man when he's trying to do what this guy has got to do because we've had other presidents in the situation not as bad but in the same situation. And they have knocked them down to the ground before they saw success and he is a black man and how far are they going to knock him down before he is successful in what he's trying to do. So I was very proud, very, very proud. And I felt – Say a certain prayer for him and hoping that people throughout this country is praying that he is successful not as – What's his name? - Limbaugh says he's hoping that he will fail. TG: Which would ruin the country. FG: And that means that he hopes the country goes down the drain rather than to have a black man be successful. I have all those different things. And after thinking about it, the next morning I got up thinking how proud our children – I'm back to children again – how proud our children have to be to know that once upon a time – You'd say. “What do you want to be?” and they'd say president. And now they can say president and be proud of it. TG: Well, we're going to go out on a good note. I just want people to remember how important education is and because you were strong and not allowing the fact that you are an African-American to inhibit you rather it empowered you. I want people to realize that you got to do stuff that people all over the world never even dreamed about doing. Because you got an education and because you didn't let anything stop you. So, I want people to know that you were in Hawaii before it was even a state. �Tell me a little bit about that and we'll go out on that tip. (Ms. Gill laughing softly) Most people haven't made it to Hawaii now and you were living there before it became commercialized. FG: And its a completely different thing. When I was there, the Hawaiians ran their country. There was no segregation because at one instance, we had gone into a restaurant, my girlfriend and I, and these people here call the waiter because they did not want to sit beside me, they wanted us to be moved. And the waiter said very politely, “If you cannot sit where you're sitting because its beside them then you need to leave”. Now, you'll never hear that. You will never hear that now. It was beautiful because they had families in the parks. You would see families in the parks enjoying themselves. You'd go to concerts and people were not dressed up and what have you, they were dressed, period. And you could enjoy your concerts and what have you. I went back 3 or 4 years ago, it was completely different. I mean, it was asphalt city. The buildings were high. The parks, there were parks, but they were parks like our parks. There were no empty spaces. There were and you could tell like we can tell what it is, segregation. I mean, you have to see it. You have to feel it but its there. It has changed to such an extent that it was just TG: Heartbreaking. FG: Yes it was. I called my girlfriend that was in Hawaii with me. I called her when we came back, Andrea and I came back to the hotel and I called her and I was crying and she said, “What is wrong with you?”. And I said, “This is nothing like I dreamt about it. I wanted to come back”. She said, “I told you. When I came back through there, I told you how it was”. Its beautiful. Its still beautiful and what have you but the situations are completely different. TG: So you got to experience the real essence of the true, raw Hawaii. FG: Yeah. TG: Only because, and this is absolutely true, because you had an education and you went into the military and became an officer. Were you a lieutenant? FG: I was a 1st lieutenant and then I was a 2nd lieutenant and when I got out, I had been given papers for captain but I had got married and I got out. TG: And this is all in the early '50s, late '40s, early '50s, during the Korean War that this was going on. And you were a black woman from a small little country town born in another smaller country town, if you want to give it that much props. Did all of that because you got an education and because you had no fear and you had God in your heart. That's awesome. I don't' think you realize how phenomenal your accomplishments are. I don't think you grasp it. FG: I want to put one thing out here and that is, its the way you carry yourself. You don't have to be forceful in what I want and will not accept because I have been on wards where doctors are coming in and tell the little dirty jokes. And the nurses laughed. I don't. I might've heard one dirty joke from 'em and that's it. They never said anything else again. I mean, its how you accept things and how you do – You don't accept it, you let people know by your actions that you will not accept it. And that's what we need to do. We need to not laugh at something or accept something and then go later (recording ends) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Francis J. Gill Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Francis J. Gill Interviewer: Theresa Gill-Walker Date: 9 March 2009 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 42:54 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9 March 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Francis J. Gill; Theresa Gill-Walker; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GillFrancis https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2705/CreggerElizabeth_[compressed].mp3 4ffb6927912fa2fd2577c768c972963e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Elizabeth A. Cregger Subject The topic of the resource Williamson Road Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Elizabeth A. Cregger Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 17 November 2008 Location: Private residence of Ms. Cregger Total Duration: 1:21:41 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 November 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Elizabeth A. Cregger; Alicia Sell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CreggerElizabeth https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular_[compressed].mp3 941a720c8dc9e26e3b672a15e231f6fb https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular.pdf 8f49b56a46e7ac9f5327a06e9d4849dd PDF Text Text Interviewee: Lucky Lular Ree Interviewer: Ashley Maynor Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is June the 26th and my name is Ashley Maynor and I'm with Roanoke Public Libraries and I'm interviewing Mrs. Lular Ree Clark Lucky at her home on Norfolk Avenue in the Hurt Park neighborhood. We're going to talk today about her experiences living in this area and working with children. AM: Thank you so much for letting me interview you today. So you were telling me just a minute ago that you weren't actually born here. 0.00.35.0 LL: I was born in Singleville, South Carolina. AM: And how long did you live in South Carolina? LL: They brought me to Roanoke when I was 3 years old. AM: Do you mind telling me when your birthday was? LL: September 23, 1928. AM: And what brought your parents here to Roanoke when you were 3? LL: My grandmother, my grandparents, my granddaddy worked for Norfolk and Western and, um, they – My daddy's side of the family was from South Carolina. And my grandmother and them were from - my momma's side of the family was from North Carolina. And, um, I don't know what brought 'em here. All I know is that the Clark side comes and then the Moore side comes. That's the way they talk about it and they all moved – My grandmother is the one I'm named after. I got a picture of her somewhere. Its in my bedroom. They lived at 12 ½ Street and the one that raised me, he lived right here at 100 10th Street Southwest, right on this corner. And he worked for Norfolk and Western and all I know is my aunt told me last year, this is sad, that they came down to the reservation and brought me here when I was 3 years old and my mother got burnt up in the same house when I was about, going on 5. 0.02.34.3 AM: Which house was that? LL: 100 10th Street Southwest. AM: Now were you telling me that your grandfather was an Indian? 0.02.53.0 LL: Uh huh, John, his name was John Clark. That's my granddaddy. But my grandpa Moore, his name was Patrick Henry Moore and he's the one that raised me. Grandaddy stayed in South Carolina but grandma Clark moved to Roanoke 'cause she had a brother here and he moved her here from South Carolina. AM: So because your mom died, you were raised mostly by your granddad? 0.03.28.9 LL: Uh huh. Yeah, my granddaddy and grandmama raised me and my daddy got killed in a car wreck when I was about 15 years old, 15 or 16. 0.03.46.0 AM: Hmm. Did you have any cousins or anything - ? LL: Oh yeah. My granddaddy raised 6 grandchildren and we were all cousins and the ones that he raised, our parents had died all but one and my Aunt Minny and she was blind. 0.04.18.8 AM: Hmm. Do you have fond memories of growing up? 0.04.22.3 LL: Yeah, my grandmother, there used to be some, we called 'em dunkets when we was kids but �they're, what'cha call those people, they back up there on Bent Mountain. They came from Floyd County. They used to come and my grandmother made lye soap in the backyard and I would stand and watch her make lye soap and they would come and buy it and she would give it away to people. And, um, then she taught me to quilt. You know how you quilt? She made some quilt frames out of 4 pieces of wood and took the poker and got it hot and made holes in it and took rag strings and tied around and she would quilt quilts and that's how she taught me how to quilt quilts. I would walk around (laughing) the frame with her, help her tie it. I was a little bitty something. But she would show me how to stitch and base and put the frame, quilt the quilt in there, the inner lining on the frame so when she quilted, you'd put the needle through it, go all the way down and you'd put it together. Then, she got me – I was raised in this church right here. 0.05.57.6 AM: Jerusalem Baptist Church? LL: Uh huh. 'Cause as a kid, Ms. Golden, you've probably, its somewhere in history, her name will come up, her name was Estelle Golden. She would take us and, take me and just have me in everything in Jerusalem, her and Miss Wheaton, Madge Wheaton, Audrey Wheaton's mother-in-law. And I was in school with Audrey but Audrey never lived in Northwest. They didn't bother us. We had to go to, we walked from here to Harrison's School. We didn't have no buses. (laugh) And then we had to walk from here to Addison. When we got to Addison we had to walk. 0.06.43.5 AM: That's a long walk from here. 0.06.46.0 LL: Uh huh and, but um, Jerusalem, I was raised in Jerusalem but I joined Jerusalem under Reverend Hunter, that's Jeanette McCadney's (??) daddy and I started singing when I was about 11 or 12 and I went around with this preacher singing all over Roanoke and places and churches. It was myself and a boy named Edward Roberson. He played the piano and he had a - this man's name was Dr. Rollins. I knew that name had come up somewhere. Some way or another he followed Reverend Pinkutt? (??) ? You heard of Pinkutt? (??) 0.07.40.7 AM: I have. 0.07.42.0 LL: Dr. Pinkutt, We called him, grandmother and them talked about him. He had the first bank right up here on Salem Avenue and Dr. Pinkutt, he followed Dr. Pinkutt. (Laughs) And Dr. Rollins – I've always been around children all my life but I don't know – but my grandmother some kinda way got me tied with Doc Rollins and his wife and I started singing, just singing with 'em and following 'em. So what he did, Doc Rollins and his wife kinda helped keep me going, helped me with clothes, helped my grandmother and them. So that kinda kept me from getting, I guess from getting too far away. 0.08.39.6 AM: Do you remember what songs you would sing or what some of your favorite songs were? 0.08.44.4 LL: It was a song called, “Over There”. You don't hear it now 'cause when Doc Rollins taught it to me when he come to ______ (??) It wasn't no music with it. It's “Over there, there's a land of pure delight, over there, over there, where faith at last in sight, over there, over there. Wasn't no sorrows enter in, Wasn't no temptation and no sin, There'll be no one to put us out, over there.” That's the song. That's the chorus of it. I sung the verses of it. Sometimes, I look like I sit down, I can get the verses and sometimes I can't. 0.09.31.4 AM: Do you remember the tune of it? 0.09.33.4 LL: Mm mm (Singing) There's a land of pure delight, over there, over there, Where faith at last in �sight, over there, over there. Where no sorrows enter in, No temptation and no sin. There'll be no one to put us out over there. (Speaking again) That's it. And I still sing but I belong to the choir up here at Jerusalem and I had a choir with the Valley Baptist Association Youth Choir. I had that. The ministers didn't like the idea that I let any child sing. Hello. They had to be of Baptist faith and so I just give it up 'cause if I couldn't take all kids, I don't care where they come from. I would take 'em and they didn't like it. That's selfish of Roanoke. The parents thought there was money in it – What it was set up for was to raise – if they did sing and they got an offering of anything, it was supposed to go to a scholarship but the parents couldn't see that far. But I could see that far. And during that time, I worked with Reverend Suggs' son. He went to football. His daddy preached in Schaeffer Memorial in Christiansburg. But he lives in Roanoke. Lee Suggs, he went to, he's in professional football. Curtis Blair, I had a little part in his life. He's in North Carolina. He went to basketball. John Nech (??), he was raised up here in Hurt Park Projects and I had a little bit in his life. I could name a whole lot of them but them the ones that just stands out in my mind 'cause I think about 'em quite often. But I don't know - Southwest is not the same as it used to be. 0.12.17.6 AM: In what ways do you think its changed the most? 0.12.19.6 LL: Its changed a lot. It has changed a lot. The church people don't reach out like they used to. But I work in the church, I work out with the community and all. I work with all the children. Even 'til now, they come in. (Phone rings) “Mrs. Lucky, I'm hungry”, I feed 'em. If there's anything here to feed 'em, I feed 'em. (Phone conversation) She just want to talk about her problems that's all. 0.13.17.4 AM: Do a lot of people come to you for advice? 0.13.21.7 LL: Uh huh. Even now. 0.13.24.4 AM: Are you kinda, um, maybe one of the elders, you'd say, of the community people look to? 0.13.31.8 LL: Yeah, right now, yeah. 'Cause even the girls that have babies, some of them come in. They have bi-polar, lupus (sigh), other mental health problems. I sit and listen to 'em and the children, I do what I can for 'em 'cause back there that's Christian education stuff. Sometimes they come in, they want a book and they sit and keep 'em from idle hands. I give 'em something to do, work a puzzle or something. They're happy. They come in, “Mrs. Lucky, can I look at TV”, I say, “Yeah”. “I want to look at cartoons”. They know I like cartoons. So they sit down and we sit here and look at cartoons. 0.14.28.9 AM: Where do you think all that love comes from that you're giving to your community? 0.14.35.9 LL: Comes from God, 'cause, I just can't live by myself. I have to share something. I have to do something if it ain't nothing but a – I get upset if somebody even mistreat a dog and it just – I don't like for nobody to mistreat nobody. But I have to keep my mouth shut about a lot of things so I just keep it shut. But now I've been involved in the neighborhood and I'm still involved in – tomorrow, I go to Richmond tomorrow, to a meeting, a legal client – There are clients that don't understand what legal services are all about or understand any legal, any kind of legal (Footsteps as Mrs. Lucky moves across the room) (From the background..) Do you see this? This is whole bunch of stuff right here, missionary stuff, right here in this cabinet. 0.15.56.6 AM: Mm mm LL: (From across the room) I've got everything scattered. I got church stuff in here. This is from the Valley Baptist and the State Baptist Association. I sit on the committee/board for that. �0.16.17.7 (Mrs. Lucky's voice is too far away)... 0.22.34.0 LL: What'd I do with them cards. I don't know. This right here, this is the Baptist Children's – What else you need? 0.22.56.6 AM: Well let me get you to tell me a little bit about your schooling and your early career and your own family 'cause I want to make sure that you tell me about all of that. I know you went to Addison 0.23.14.1 LL: Addison High School. I've been to Virginia Tech. I took Early Childhood Education at Virginia Tech and Madison College. They sent me to Mississippi State and I was down there with some guys that belonged to - what was that saying with Rap Brown (??) in? Who was that? Black Panthers. Yeah. I was down there in college with a couple of 'em and I was scared to death. 0.23.51.3 AM: Was that as a student? 0.23.51.8 LL: As a student and they sent me down there for a 6 week course in Jackson, Mississippi. They had a little house in the middle of the field and I went in there and these women had their hair tied on and they was making pecan candy. I stood there and watched 'em. And the pecan trees was out there 'cause where the dormitory was all the pecan trees was right out from it and they had this little house there. That's the only interesting thing about it. 'Cause they told us, “Don't go out at night because of the Ku Klux Klan”. 0.24.48.5 AM: So around what time was this? What years were you in college? 0.24.53.5 LL: Oh, let's see. My son is 39 years old. (Knock at the door) (Yells) “Come on”. Herman's 39. He wasn't born then. It was in the '60s. That was in the '60s. (A little louder) (Door closes) My husband died in '63. That was about sixty, oh my God 0.25.31.2 AM: So when were you married? Were you married while you were quite young then? Before college? 0.25.37.6 LL: Yeah. I didn't go to college until after my husband died. 0.25.43.7 AM: So tell me what happened. Put it in order for me. So you graduated from Addison and then when did you get married? 0.25.51.6 LL: I got married in 1963. 'Cause the first marriage I got married, it didn't, it wasn't no marriage. I left Roanoke and went to Columbus, Ohio, and I come back and that's when I went back to college and I got married – Herman died in '63 – So, huh! That was in the '50s. I went back to college in the '60s. I got married in '58 or '59. Well, I got a marriage license somewhere. I think it was 50 – Wait a minute, I just saw it. I think 0.26.47.3 AM: I think that was in your blue, I saw a marriage license in here. 0.26.49.5 LL: In here? 0.26.49.7 AM: Mm mm, LL: Yeah, its in here also. Yep, 'cause this is the government papers in here. Yeah, here it is. Lord �have mercy – 56 (She exclaimed) (Interviewer laughing) 0.27.18.0 AM: Earlier than you thought. 0.27.18.9 LL: Wow! Mm mm mm. In '56 and he died in '63. OK. 0.27.36.3 AM: And his name was Herman? 0.27.37.2 LL: Uh huh 0.27.40.0 AM: What was his last name? 0.27.41.2 LL: Lucky. Herman Richard Lucky. 0.27.43.9 AM: Did you have any children? 0.27.46.1 LL: Um, I had my child, I couldn't birth no children. I could birth 'em but they had to take 'em from me but the son that I got, I adopted him. 0.28.02.8 AM: What's your son's name? 0.28.06.6 LL: Herman Richard Lucky. I named him after 0.28.09.6 AM: He's the genius? 0.28.10.0 LL: Uh huh. 0.28.12.6 AM: And when did you adopt your son? 0.28.14.6 LL: OK, I just saw the papers a few minutes ago. Um, here it is, this is it. (Papers rustling) An aunt of mine kept up with everything. Well, you know I'm blessed because see some kids don't have nobody to keep up with nothing. Let's see – when was that boy born? - This is dated – Where are my glasses? I saw 'em somewhere. 0.29.01.2 AM: You had some in your bedroom. Let me get 'em for you. 0.29.02.5 (Footsteps) (Papers shuffling) 0.29.19.2 LL: He was born in '69. I think he was born in '69 'cause when I got him, he wasn't no more than about - he wasn't even a month old. 'Cause the doctor called me and told, “Come get this baby”. I say, “Oh no”. He said, “Mrs. Lucky, you come and get this boy”. I said, “No, Dr. Glovesgo (??) Uh uh, I ain't got time.” He said, “You come get this boy”. And I went over to Community Hospital and saw that little devil and picked him up and he was just grinnin'. (Interviewer laughing) Let's see, what date is on this thing here? This has got 1970. He was born in 1969. That's when he was born. Yep! That's exactly when he was born. Mm mm. He was 6 months old, he was month old, uh huh. See right here. (papers shuffling) Well I'll be doggone. He was a month old. That was in '69. It had to be in '69. 0.31.02.3 AM: So you were single by the time you adopted your son. 0.31.05.9 �LL: Uh huh. 'Cause my husband had died. 0.31.08.7 AM: Your husband had died in '63. So you had gone to college and you had started your career and you were a single mom then. 0.31.15.6 LL: Yeah. That is the truth. 0.31.16.1 AM: So tell me about what made you want to go back to college and what you did after college. 0.31.27.2 LL: Now that's a strange thing because God just looked like – avenues just started opening for me and I started working with the city when they was coming through Henry Street and there was a – used to be a Black Business League in Roanoke and I was the youngest thing there with them old men. That was with Mr. Mac Barlow (??) He used to have the Dumas Hotel, him and a whole bunch of older men and they had me doing their legwork. 'Cause you younger than we are, sister, so you, they called me sister, you have to do it, that's how I got involved with the city. Dr. Claytor (??), old Dr. Claytor. Yeah. That's how. 0.32.42.2 AM: And was that, were you working with the city before you went back to school or afterwards? 0.32.45.5 LL: Afterwards. 'Cause after all of this, I don't know, I got hired under a program for the Social Service Department. 0.32.58.0 AM: Did you move into this house with your husband? 0.33.01.4 LL: No. I've been living here 20 some years. 0.33.04.9 AM: Where did you live with your husband when you got married? 0.33.07.4 LL: Up here in Southwest. Right up here on Salem Avenue. And he worked for the Roanoke City Sanitation Department. 0.33.26.7 AM: So your final degree, was that in Early Childhood Education? 0.33.29.7 LL: Mm mm 0.33.30.1 AM: And then you got working with the city and then 0.33.33.8 LL: And then I went back to school for Sociology 101 and 102. Then I started – Oh my Lord. 0.33.45.4 AM: And when did you start the day care, was that after that, after you went back to school? 0.33.47.6 LL: No, I started day care before I went back to school. 0.33.56.2 AM: Do you remember what year or about what year you started doing that? 0.34.01.2 LL: (Sigh) Girl, you racking my brain. (Interviewer laughing) Let's see, he was born in '69. This was in the '60s. So it had to have been about '68, '67 to '68. 0.34.19.5 AM: And what prompted you - �0.34.25.3 LL: 'Cause I was with day care when he was born. Yeah, it was in '67/'68. 0.34.29.4 AM: You were working here in Roanoke for a day care? 0.34.33.1 LL: Uh huh. I started day care over there on Grayson Avenue. That's when I started that day care. 0.34.41.3 AM: And why did you start that day care? 0.34.43.2 LL: Because I had been fooling around with TAP and they had – I was still living in Southwest and the house where they had had these people in is still up there 'cause Miss Nunan (??) and them bought this house because it used to be a nursing home. It used to be Carter's Nursing Home up there. So Miss Nunan (??) and them bought the house after - TAP had a club called Mother's Club and this Mothers Club, they would keep the children so these young girls could go to school or go back to school, get their GED and get what they had to get. And, if you tell me how I ended up over there with those little crying babies, I don't know. But I used to go over there every day – just go over there and one day I went over there and the milk was sour and it was just pitiful. And I went to TAP and was talking to them and they didn't seem like they cared so I don't know what happened. I got in touch with the Episcopalians and they got that church and that's how the day care started. 0.36.11.7 AM: The church on Grayson Avenue? They donated that to you? 0.36.13.8 LL: Yeah. 0.36.14.2 AM: And did you say that you wrote a grant? 0.36.15.5 LL: I wrote grants. I went to TAP and asked for help to write grants and they helped me to write grants. That's how that day care center got started. 0.36.31.2 AM: And you said it was funded by the United Way? 0.36.32.7 LL: Yeah, United Way was one of the funding sources and the strangest thing, the building and everything was put up over there and that's a Continental Home and at that time, they didn't want no Continental Home in Roanoke. But over there on Graysons, they said that they would accept it over there if it would look like a home so that's how Continental Homes put that place over there. (Softly) That's a long time ago. 0.37.10.8 AM: And how long were you at the day care? Did you run that until you went back to school? 0.37.15.2 LL: I run that until I set up a board of directors and, see, I didn't want to own it. I wanted the parents to own it. It seemed like it was a debate between the parents owning and me owning it. I didn't want to own it. I wanted it to be for the parents 'cause it was named King-Kennedy Parents Association. I didn't want it to – That's the way I wanted it but Ms. Gott, hello, Ms. Gott couldn't see it that way. With all the training I had most of the stuff, like, God gave me the ability to do it, to put me in the place where I could take what training I had of what was in my brain. I could take it and develop it as a learning tool. And I would, I made a whole lot of things that I was training like numbers and stuff like 'at. 'Cause I've always been artistic 'bout doing stuff. What happened, somebody, I'll never forget it, they planted this woman up there and she kept messing in my papers and stuff and I told her if she put her hand back in there again, I was gonna knock her hands off and she went and told whoever put her �in there. They pissed me off and when they pissed me off, I told 'em what I had to tell 'em. So they right away just told me that I no longer was needed. Hello? So I left. And I told 'em, I said, “What God put together, you cannot tear down”. And its still over there, the building's still there. 'Cause when they came to me and wanted to know what they should do. I said since TAP helped me get it up, let 'em take it. So that's how TAP got it. That's how TAP got it. I guess I wasn't the right person, you know, but you see if you come by stuff in a hard way, and you try to do stuff the way you know how to do it. People just don't – I don't know. People just, these people just don't – I don't know. I have doubts about people in Roanoke 'cause see they have not did me no great favors, hello? What they did, even people in church, they try to knock you, anything you try to do to help somebody, it looks like they don't want to help nobody. I'm serious. And anytime you try to do something, 'cause like some of them would say, “I wouldn't do this, I wouldn't do this.” I said, “Somebody got to help them kids”. And just like when the school problems, they come to me and I got news for ya, I get on the telephone and call the school. Yes I do. And see I took training in Richmond. I sat on a committee in Charlottesville and this committee, I had workshops here in Roanoke and do you know, they didn't even have to pay nothing for it. (Footsteps) And do you know, see, that's the committee. And had those books to give to the parents. You can count on one hand how many parents participated. But when something goes wrong, they come to me and I go get one of my books, like 'at. Get my book and go to work with it 'cause everything's in that book. Let me see if I've got another one here. If I do, I'll give it to you 'cause I got a blue one here somewhere. (Moves away from recorder) I take them books and take it to school with me and put it up there and the principals tell me, “Where did you get that book from?”. And I tell 'em, I want one. And so they told me, “If they want one, you tell to send get one. Don't you give 'em your book. I got more than one here honey but I, got more than one here but I'm trying to think where that one is – Well, you can take that one if you want it 'cause I got another here somewhere. I may got 2 or 3 of here somewhere. You can take that one 'cause see that's the one I use when I give workshops. I tell 'em, “Don't move it”. They can look at it but don't move it. 0.42.44.9 AM: After starting up the day care, what kind of work did you do here in Roanoke? Who did you work for? 0.42.55.8 LL: After day care? 0.42.56.6 AM: Mm mm 0.42.57.7 LL: Oh, I worked at Roanoke Memorial and I went to take up nursing and I'm not a nurse, I'm not nursing material 'cause I wear my feelings on my cuff and you can't be a nurse and get involved with patients. You know, you got to separate yourself and I couldn't separate myself. So they put me in the newborn nursery at Roanoke Memorial and that did it. That did it. When they put me in that newborn nursery, that did it. And then they took me and – There was a little boy born and the girl didn't want him and I took up with that little boy until I finally got her - convinced the mom to take her son. And when I saw them circumsize them babies, that did it. That did it. I'll never forget it. Old Dr. Ellis was circumsizing this little boy and he strapped that little boy's hand back, hands back and his legs back and – bit! - The blood shot up and the little boy was screaming and I flew. And he told me, “Go get her”. And they made me stand there and watch and that did it. It was nursing that did it. I'm serious, that did it. Mm mm. Not everybody can be a nurse. (Laughing) 0.44.48.7 AM: So what did you do after that? 0.44.52.0 LL: Well, after that they put me back on the floor and I got involved with 2 or 3 patients and every time I turn around they was calling me in something and then they say, “Now Mrs. Lucky, we can't �have that”. And so I said, “Well I'm through with it” and I quit. So I ain't nursed nobody since. Hello? I ain't nursed nobody since. I take care of a baby or something, you know, but as far as nursing, uh uh. 0.45.28.8 AM: What other places did you work for besides the hospital? 0.45.32.4 LL: I worked for Social Services and I helped take care, I didn't work, I just did it. Take care of some older people and I didn't get paid for it but I did it. But I always kept my regular job which was me cooking. What else? Day care, you know. I would be doing other work. 0.46.11.2 AM: Cooking at a restaurant? 0.46.12.1 LL: Uh huh. 0.46.15.5 AM: So you just had a lot of side jobs that sustained you? 0.46.17.0 LL: Uh huh. Yeah and I worked with pregnant teenagers. I worked in the pregnant teenage program. That, I liked, because I could help them and then I didn't have to get attached to them. I had to show them how to do and that I had good success with pregnant teens. Good success with 'em 'cause I helped 'em in education and then, Oh, I did jobs, job researching, job placements and I would call companies and ask them. Like, one job, I called GE when Jim Olen (??) was there and I called Jim and I asked him. I said him that if, uh, well I don't know if somebody I knew, knew who to contact or what and he said, “If you get me so many - “ I said, “You tell me what to do and I'll train 'em”. And I trained him 8 people. He hired the whole 8 up at GE. And most of them has, and they retired from up there. Two of 'em was in the layoffs and the others retired. And those girls lived in Lincoln Terrace. Some was pregnant teenagers. 0.47.44.9 AM: They made careers out of that job? 0.47.45.3 LL: Yeah, some of them driving the city bus. Some of 'em was driving the city bus. When I look at that, it just – and they'd see me and they'd say, “Mrs. Lucky, I ain't having no more babies. I ain't having no more”. It was one girl out of that whole class that I couldn't keep up with and she lived in Lincoln Terrace too. And she left Roanoke. She married Reverend Jeffreys (??). He used to be a Pilgrim Baptist Church. She married him and she left Roanoke with Reverend Jeffreys. I don't know where she is now. She had kids. It looked like she was one teenager was having babies one right behind the other. So she left Roanoke and most of the others, they got jobs, you know, and they stayed in touch with me for a long time. And some of them see me now, “Mrs. Lucky, you look the same”. I tell 'em, “Oh girl, you're just kidding.” “Yes you do Mrs Lucky”. And I say, “No, you kidding”. They see me and I tell 'em, Honey I'm alright. Anything they can do, I'm alright. I tell 'em, “You just take care of you and your family”, just like that. A lot of 'em in church, at church and different churches. I've had some success like in Richmond, going back and forth to Richmond on committees for children and whatever, Charlottesville. I've had some success in that. But everything I did, those committees and things like 'at, Roanoke people look like was never interested any. But I could work with people like in Charlottesville, Richmond, down towards Virginia Beach and that covers a lot of area. From Charlottesville, naw let's see, from Bedford to Virginia Beach and back up, what's that place, back up there where Bessie used to live at, back up around not Bassett but its back over this way. I can't recall the name of the place. 'Cause I went there and did a training and it was welfare clients and we was training them and the people had the State Police out all around the motel. It was up near Tazwell, Virginia, that's right. It was back over in there. 0.50.40.5 �AM: I want to take you back in time for a minute, 'cause I want to ask you some more questions about growing up. Do you know the names of the grandparents that raised you. What were their names? I didn't write those down. 0.50.51.0 LL: Yeah, um, Patrick Henry Moore and Mary Alice Moore. 0.51.00.5 AM: And do you remember what the house you grew up in was like? Was it brick or was it 0.51.09.7 LL: It was a little wood house and it had a basement. It was a corner house, right on the corner and it had a basement and come to think, it was almost built like this house. It was almost built like this house but it had a basement and the kitchen was in the basement. 0.51.38.0 AM: Did you have a garden? 0.51.38.7 LL: Grandmother had chickens in the backyard and garden, had a little garden. That's where she made lye soap and all in the back yard. Mm mm. 0.51.50.9 AM: What kinds of things did you grow up eating and doing with the family? 0.51.56.8 LL: The only thing my grandmother did mostly was have me in church. 0.51.57.5 AM: And quilting right? 0.51.52.03 LL: Yeah, and quilting. Everything she did, she always had me by her side and that's her picture in there on top of that TV. You see in there with that teddy bear, that's my grandmama. That's the one that raised me. 0.52.22.5 AM: Were there any kinds of family stories that your grandparents would tell you or share with you or passed down? 0.52.28.0 LL: No, my grandmother didn't. If she did, I don't remember none of 'em no more. Oh! She would take me – my papa was working for Norfolk Western. I'd ride the train! During that time, when you're riding the train, people be dipping snuff and tobacco or whatever and we would go down to that old railroad station there and we would ride from here to North Carolina, Reedsville and Leeksville (??), North Carolina. That's where her home was and we'd go down there, and especially in July, we'd go down to, whatcha call it, something like a family – church -, a homecoming. I remember that and (laughing) my grandmother, I remember going down there and I remember one time we went down there and my aunt baked this pretty cake and that day I was being mischievous I guess and I pinched that cake and grandmother whipped my butt. And I went out in the back yard and I don't know, and they had cows and things. I went down in the barn and the hornets got after me and ran me out from down there and I swoled up. My grandmother went out in the field and got some tobacco leaves and wrapped me in 'em. I remember that well. But other than that, I just, everything was just, it wasn't too much – now my aunt, I got an aunt that lives over on Glendale. Her name is Mary Moore. She's ninety-some years old. That's my momma's sister. Now, I was raised in the house with her. Now my daddy's sister is the one that give me all this stuff here. Her name is Mary Louise French. She's the only sister living on that side. She lives up on Lafayette Boulevard but now she's with her daughter in Maryland where she stays with her daughter, up to Alena's (??). Michael French, I don't know if you've heard of him, he used to be a Greyhound Bus driver but he's not driving now 'cause he got, whatcha call it, some kind of, something he got in the service, some kind of deteriorating something. Well, he �lives over on Lafayette Boulevard. Now they was raised in this area too and they had a house right down there. That house is gone too. So all those houses are tore down. 0.55.35.3 AM: Did you grandparents ever talk to you about the Civil War or slavery or anything like that? 0.55.37.1 LL: Uh uh. The only thing that I hear about slavery is what I learned relating to my grandaddy Clark. The one that you got a picture of, John Clark, right there. He would tell me when I was a kid, I used to ride in the back of the wagon and he would be, I guess working on the reservation, whatever he was doing, I'd get in the back of the wagon and he said I'd sit in the back of the wagon and ride with him all day as a kid. That had to be before momma died 'cause that was on the reservation. Now he was born, old grandaddy - He was back 'ere enslaved because he left the reservation when he was 8 years old and I knew about him, about my granddaddy Moore, the one that raised me, I don't know about him. Now that granddaddy Clark I know about him because it seems like that my daddy's family was more concerned with me finding out about my history than my momma's family was. My aunt carried me down there where I was born at and it was in the foothills, the Cherokee foothills (laughs). Then I met Bobby Clark then I met - one thing I found out from on my momma's side that there was two set of Moores, a white set of Moores and a black set of Moores and they were from Franklin County. Hello? Now that's what I found out. Then they were involved in some parts of them was Indian but its a place called Switchback – You know where that is? - OK, Switchback, West Virginia. Poppa had some people lived in Bluefield, West Virginia and my aunt, my granddaddy's sister's children tells me about the Indians, the Indian side of my granddaddy Moore's side. Hello? That's the only one I know. That's the only way I knew about that and the only way I knew about that, we had a family reunion in Delaware and I went. I think I was the only one from Roanoke that went. I was. And I'm the only one that they keep in touch with. I don't know what Indian it was, you know, what tribe it was but granddaddy was Cherokee. He was Cherokee and there was a song to come out when he went working on the railroad and he learned how to make cross ties. And he called it “Old John Clark”. That was the song they made up for my granddaddy. Now my aunt told me that, all of that. See that's all history 'cause see she tells me that, Mary Lou tells me a whole lot cause she about 10 to 12 years older than I. 'Cause when I was born – She calls me, she writes me letters and tells me I remember you when you was in your momma's womb. I have to sit and look. I said, what is her mind, trippin'? Cause she's eighty-some years old. So I just wonder, I say I wonder, I tell her, I asked her daughter, I say, “I wonder if her mind tripping”. She said, “I don't know Lular Ree”. She says, “Mamma's something else. She goes back and gets stuff”. She carried me down there where I was born. That's how I know where the place was. That was one of my birthday presents. 1.00.51.0 AM: Did you ever sit on the porch in the evening with your grandparents? 1.00.52.3 LL: Mm mm. I used to follow my grandmother everywhere she went. She wore long dresses. Dresses like you see there? And everywhere she went, they said, “Here comes mama Moore. Here come that girl.” And I'd be with her. She wouldn't leave me with nobody. Uh uh. No she wouldn't. 1.01.19.0 AM: Would you ever listen to the radio in the evening? 1.01.21.6 LL: Mm mm. She would listen to the radio and I listened to it with her. That's how we'd go to school. Dr. Pepper – Mr. Aaron Sharp (??) – He would be on the radio and he said and they would give the time and he said, “Dr. Pepper time, 10, 2 and 4”. (Laughing) That's how we would go to school in the morning. And then Arty Levins (??), you heard of him? Well, he knew me when I was a small kid. My first little babysitting job, I went and babysat his kids and they lived out there in that apartment, it was the Franklin Apartment now, I don't know what they call it now, but it was out there on, you go up �the hill, you go out on Memorial Avenue and you go up that hill back over there and the apartments sits right on the corner. Kate, that's what his wife's name was, Kate. She was a red head. 1.02.43.5 AM: Do you remember when your house got your first refrigerator or telephone or anything like that? Did you have any of those things growing up? 1.02.51.0 LL: We had a telephone and we had a refrigerator. We had an ice box. The ice man would come around and grandmother would get 25 pounds of ice. Then we got a refrigerator, I don't know what year we got the refrigerator but I know we got a refrigerator. And the ice man still came around. Grandmother would get the ice and put it in the tub on the back porch 'cause she used to, she made, some kinda way, she had a tub that was made out of a barrel and it would sit there and catch rain water. Mm. That's going back some. 1.03.44.6 AM: Do you remember any of the businesses or shops that you would go to with your grandparents? 1.03.49.6 LL: No, cause we didn't go nowhere. But this building right here, that was a store. 1.03.53.1 AM: On the corner here? 1.03.53.4 LL: Right here. That was a store and there was another store on this corner and grandmother would send us to the store to get a pound of bologna and a loaf of bread everyday up here at this store. But this store right here, that was a store Miss McCadney (??) had. This was built in 1800. She lived upstairs and the store was downstairs. Then she turned it into a day care center and something happened and she died and they turned it into apartments. Somebody bought it and turned it into apartments and its vacant 'cause I've been talking to, calling down to the city, I said find out who owned it and if he'd give me the tax write-off, I'd turn it into a day care center, a youth center for the community. If you turn it into a youth center, you can still use it as a community center for the parents. 'Cause by rights, they don't have nowhere to go but the Westend Center is up there but most of the kids around here, I don't know, they, I don't know. 1.05.11.3 AM: What kinds of things would y'all do for entertainment? Were there dances? Obviously, you did a lot of things at church. Were there any dances? 1.05.19.0 LL: They had dances and things at the church, bible school 'cause I taught bible school. I teach Sunday school and I do missionary training, bible study, and I put on plays 'cause I just got one out of the bible called “Seven Lamps”. I researched that in the bible and I'm gonna get it together and do a play with that for the kids and let the kids play the angels 'cause its seven angels that have to be played so the kids will play the angels 'cause its seven lamps is the seven churches, so that way they can learn what different churches are about. Corrupt church or, you know. That would play a part in their life. That's the way I've been training kids. Give them something structured to do that will make an example in their life for 'em. To tell you the truth, that's about the only thing you can do with 'em now. 1.06.29.0 AM: What are some of your fondest childhood memories? 1.06.36.7 LL: My grandmother, I was in a play up here at the church and my grandmother took a pair of curtains and made me a white dress out of. A pair of curtains had ruffles on it and she made me this little dress and it had little ruffles, made a little pinafore-like thing to tie across the front. I'll never forget that and I was the flower girl walking down the aisle behind that man right there, Paul Scott and Jimmy Cooks' mama. Mm mm. That I long remember because Miss Golden, they kept me into something up there. �So grandmother had to kinda like do the best she could with what she had. 1.07.38.9 AM: Do you think that the church raised you as much as your grandmother? 1.07.42.5 LL: Yes, yes. Since I've been sick, that church has been very good to me and I tell 'em, I say, “You know what? This is my home.” And I said, “This little house that I'm in, God must've got me here 'cause I've been twenty-some years. 'Cause when I moved in this house, Herman, my son, - Now my grandson is 21 and I was here before he was born. That's a long time. 1.08.30.3 AM: Who do you think were your role models growing up? 1.08.40.2 LL: Who was my role models when I was growing up? Miss Madge Wheaton was one of 'em. Miss Golden. 1.08.59.7 AM: And what did those women do in the community? 1.09.02.5 LL: Miss Madge Wheaton, she was a teacher but she was something at the church and Miss Golden was a teacher, a Sunday school teacher, teaching everything else. 1.09.13.1 AM: What did you admire about them? 1.09.14.9 LL: I don't know. Its just the time they gave me. Especially Miss Golden. They took up so much time with me. Just like now, I belong to the missionary and some of those women in the missionary knew me when I was small and they called me and one of them, Miss Mary Fanason (??) - I've always loved her. She's a little bitty something. We used to see her with this big man and we used to tell my grandmother, “What that old man doing with that little girl?” And that was his wife. And I told her about it. (Laughing) She said, “Lular!”. I said, “Yes ma'am, I said it.” And another lady, Sarah Bratan (??), she's small too and she's always, her and Miss Jenny Mao (??), they stand out in my life because they always had something good to say to me - always some kinda way to encourage me. Its not in what you do, its how you do it. Its just – I don't know, its like now, up there at Jerusalem, I went back to church Sunday, the first time since I've been sick and it was just - to see some of those older women that knew me when I was small – It was just, it was beautiful. I'm 78 years old and if I'm 78 years old and they knew me when I was small, they up in age. I'm serious, they up in age. Its just wonderful. But to see – I don't know. 1.11.22.1 AM: What keeps you going everyday? It sounds like to me you spend a lot of your time doing what you can for others and taking care of young women and giving them advice like, what keeps you going? 1.11.35.6 LL: Its living and being able to even sit and like talking to you. That's enough - That keeps me going. Its just so much. To know that somebody care for you and I always – what keeps me going, I don't never, this is going to sound crazy, but I don't never feel alone. I may get lonely but I don't feel alone. I don't. Most of the time, I'm here by myself and my son has boys and I'm just here and the kids come in and they're my comfort. Them kids, they are my comfort. And its one little baby here, she's turned 4 weeks old, 6 weeks old, yesterday or today and I didn't know that her momma was pregnant. And I saw her walking up and down the street, I said, “You alright Kiki?”. “Yes ma'am Miss Lucky, I'm alright”. And the next thing I know, the next day the girl had a baby. And that little baby, she brings that baby over here, that little baby is just something else. I talk to her and she goes (making baby sounds), watching. She wasn't even 3 weeks old and she was watching everything. It looks like she's �watching TV. People keep me going. That's the only thing I can say. God and people, that's what keeps me going. 1.13.41.8 AM: If you could share one thing with your great-great grandchildren who will listen to this interview at the library years from now, what would you want them to know about you and your life? 1.13.55.3 LL: That I love 'em and just don't worry about small things. If you're going to worry about anything, the things that are better you not small things, little material things. I don't know, just know, show love. Love is not boss, hello? Real love is for real and you'll know if a person loves you by the way that they talk to you, they come to you, they treat you. Everybody don't treat you with love. That's it. They don't. Even your people don't treat you with love, your relatives, they don't. They really don't. I got sister-in-laws (sigh) and I call them, they don't call me. One of 'em call me, but I call them, they don't call me. One get sick, I try to get in touch with 'em and see if they alright but they don't bother me. It don't bother me 'cause I tell 'em right quick, I'm about God's business. If God's business is me loving everybody, then that's what I'm about. And that's it. I tell it, I'm serious. And if I can't do you good, I ain't gonna do you no harm. I'm gonna get out your way. (Long pause) 1.16.08.4 AM: Is there something in the community that gives you hope about the future, because you said that some things have changed for the worse and some things aren't going good? Is there something going right? 1.16.20.2 LL: I hope in the future that the churches would take a more vital interest in the community with whomever lives in the community around their church 'cause they need help. You hear me? They need help. You got young people living all with young babies and all, they don't know everything. They gonna need some help. And the church should be the one to help 'em. I'm serious. And I like I tell 'em, I said, - let's see, Jerusalem has a new minister and I tell him, I said, you know what? The church is a part of the community whether we like it or not, its there. I said, some people, some churches don't even know that they're part of the community. They think they're on a corner and, well, they're on the corner and they're doing what they want to do. That's not the way the church is supposed to be. Its not. The neighborhood, the alliance is a good thing that happened but then, you see, the neighborhood, neighborhoods don't work with everybody in the neighborhood. They set themselves aside. That's not the way to do, set yourself aside. Its not the way to do. I learned that. 1.17.49.9 AM: Do you think the neighborhood alliance is trying to do good things for Hurt Park to bring people back together? 1.17.56.1 LL: It depends on what you're talking about. OK? If you're talking about, you say Hurt Park, all of this is Hurt Park, well that part up there don't include this as Hurt Park down here. Hello? And this, according to the map, Hurt Park runs from here to Park Street. But in the peoples' mind, Hurt Park don't run from here to Park Street. Hurt Park runs from Shaver's Crossing up to about 13th Street or 12th Street. 1.18.36.9 AM: And this would be West End? What would people call this? 1.18.42.6 LL: That park they got down there, they say is Prairie Park. But that's wrong. If its Hurt Park, why ain't the park named Hurt Park down here instead of Prairie Park. You don't do things like that. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. 1.19.02.6 AM: What neighborhood do you identify with yourself, if you were to tell someone what �neighborhood you're from? 1.19.09.2 LL: I'm just here. I'm just here. (laughing) I'm just here. That's all. I just say I'm from this here. I live on Norfolk Avenue and I'm just here. Coming up, this was always just Southwest and all these little names have come up here lately but if you're gonna be one name, you got to be everything and see Southwest and there was West End. Everything up here was West End. Now, West End since back one place, whatever, whatever, I don't know. I don't even try to get into it. But maybe someday, somebody will get it together. I don't know. It won't be in my time, it will be in somebody's time. 1.20.03.4 AM: Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you want to tell me about your community? 1.20.05.3 LL: Naw. I don't think. I just learned so much about Indian stuff about Roanoke, I just don't know. I don't know. I don't think so. 1.20.34.8 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular.1.jpg 41445db31c931ac2c19e37eccadab3b7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular2.jpg 0035660c156cbf831318dd9f17281bb8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular3.jpg f0ed71d8a5991f6855c759d22ad77dbe https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular4.jpg 3f1bb3163456834ad21f705d1a233a92 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular5.jpg 4f2b2ed7213e24d4a3b0110d0e5c49e6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular6.jpg f49d2ff000f3b6f28881bac1616d9a6d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular7.jpg c55a9edb21db6630e42dcbd3649b3d5b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular8.jpg 21087b8ea1f5e4ca9d7bbcf9f8d66491 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular9.jpg c8e281fbe89ce85a6397ccf535645dff https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular10.jpg ebcddef622ffd201bee87a97fdd7a03a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2704/LuckyLular11.jpg d676f23b1dd57530fd5d0855bf00b626 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lular Ree Clark Lucky Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lular Ree Clark Lucky Interviewer: Ashley Maynor Date: 26 June 2008 Location: Private residence of Ms. Lucky Total Duration: 1:20:36 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26 June 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lular Ree Clark Lucky; Ashley Maynor; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LuckyLular https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn.pdf 60856c4f6919261a1c3b9d04496e6aba PDF Text Text Interviewee: Carolyn Jones Interviewer: Sarah Lavender Transcriber: Andrew Sterling My name is Sarah Lavender and I am interviewing Carolyn Jones for the Oral History Project, Hurt Park neighborhood. SL: Ms. Jones could you please state your full name for the record. 0.00.10.9 CJ: My name is Carolyn Anne Johnson Jones 0.00.15.6 SL: Alright, I have a few questions for you Ms. Jones. When and where were you born? 0.00.21.9 CJ: I was born in Roanoke, VA, September 8, 1949. 0.00.28.2 SL: How long have you lived in Roanoke and on what streets and neighborhoods have you lived? 0.00.34.2 CJ: I have lived in Roanoke my entire life. I've never moved away, um, to live in another city or town or state. Um, I lived, I grew up the first 6 ½ years of my life on Salem Avenue in Southwest. Um, At the age of between 6 ½/sevenish, we, my grandmother remarried and we moved to 13th Street Southwest. I lived there until I married in 1970 and moved to Northwest city in Roanoke. 0.01.13.4 SL: Tell me you about your parents, your brothers and sisters. Did you have extended family living nearby? 0.01.20.1 CJ: I grew up with, uh, my adopted grandmother. Uh, she raised me, took me in at the age of around 60. Uh, she raised me. She took my sister in, uh, four years later and we lived together there until my sister was 9 and I was 14. My mother then married and, uh, someone in the service and my sister then went to live with my mother and leaving just me and my grandmother. Um, my sister, um, traveled with my, um, mother and my new stepfather. They later had 2 other children, my sister Angela, um, and my brother Mark. 0.02.09.3 SL: Describe your house for us, uh, what was it like, was it brick, did it have a garden? Yes, the house where you grew up. 0.02.21.1 CJ: The first house I grew up in was on Salem Avenue in Southwest and it was really just a 3 room house. Uh, the first room you got into when you walked in the door was the living room. And the next room we had was, um, considered the bedroom and the last room was considered the kitchen. And on the back porch, we had a bathroom and you could go in that little room on the back there on the porch and you, uh, snapped a little door and was outside on the back porch. And, uh, I remember the seat to the, the seat to the uh toilet flushed itself and you had to hold it down and I was tiny. I always had difficulty holding it down to get on it and then I felt like it was going to flop me right off, you know, before I could get off. And then, uh, in the living room we also had a bed for when extra people come, would come to visit, other family members from out of town would come to visit and, um, the bedroom, we had lots of beds 'cause there was my sister, me, and I think we had another little, small tiny bed in there. And in the kitchen we had one of those old-fashioned wood cook stoves. The smoke went up the chimney and outside. And my grandmother's a really, really good cook and she cooked a lot in there. It was always warm. On Saturdays, we'd bathe a lot in the tin tub and she'd warm up water on the cook stove and then pour it into the tub, tin tub, and we'd get in and take a Saturday night bath �and between there we'd just kinda washed up and pails and pans, you know like those long tub pans. And, uh, we also had a pot belly stove in the living room to keep our house warm. We had coal and wood stoves to warm with. 0.04.12.0 SL: Very nice. 0.04.13.5 CJ: No air conditioning, (interviewer snickers) just fans occasionally in the summertime. 0.04.13.6 SL: Wow. The house lived in next on, I think what you said was 13th Street. What kind of house was that like? 0.04.23.9 CJ: Well, it was so much better because the house on Salem was right there on the, right there on the Salem Avenue highway, like, lots of traffic, uh, We had, the house next door to me had, uh, a filling station we called it back then right next door to it. There were lots of cars coming in to be repaired. Cars coming in and out to get gasoline. And next door to me was an empty lot on the other side and, uh, and a big house next door to it and right next door to that was a big hotel. Uh, it wasn't a, it was a hotel that was known for lots of people going in and out, different hours of the night and my grandmother kept us inside a lot, she wouldn't let us out much to play because she was worried about, you know, people moving to and fro, the gasoline people coming in to get gas, the traffic, it was dangerous really. So we had a little small fence around our house and we weren't allow too much out. Um, we moved to 13th Street, it was a lot different. We had a big fenced in back yard. It was nice. It was a small house. Also, we lived on a hill. We could ride our bikes and we had to be careful not to ride too fast because it was a steep hill (interviewer laughs), steep slope. Um, I remember my sister got a tricycle into a wreck soon after we got there. She wrecked going down the hill riding her trike too fast. But, uh, our living room there, we had a front yard with some shade trees and we had a big front porch at that house too. We loved sitting on the front porch, especially in the summertime. And then we had the living room and we had, uh, two bedrooms which was nice. My sister and I shared a bedroom with a big brass bed and she had a dresser and I had a dresser. And then my mother, my grandmother, had a bedroom of her own and then we had a nice little kitchen on the back and a little small closed in back porch that we'd sit out there too also sometimes and eat, a little small back porch and underneath that back porch, we used to have our playhouse. It was really like a crawl space, a tall crawl space and we'd play doctor, teacher and nurse under there. Even in the winter, we'd sneak out there and make and play house and we'd make mudpies in the summertime under there and serve the neighborhood children. And we'd play school, church and we played teacher and we loved all those things. And we had a huge back yard with blackberries growing and raspberries growing in it. 0.06.56.5 SL: Wow. 0.06.56.6 CJ: And a big, my grandmother threw some peaches out there, peach, she threw some peach seeds out there and we prayed they'd grow and they grew into two beautiful peach trees. And we ate peaches and plums. We had damsons and plums and my grandmother canned and we had lots of pickles and canned fruits from those trees and lots of food and things 'cause she was from the country and they would bring in things from the country from her family at both those houses and we'd always have canned goods. I wrote stories about these things. 0.07.30.6 SL: It sounds like you had a great time with all, you had a whole fruit thing going on in the back yard. 0.07.36.6 CJ: It was very nice. 0.07.36.7 �SL: So, you mentioned some of the activities that you participated in, um, what are any, um, let's just say structured activities with your church or with your neighborhood that you participated in? 0.07.48.2 CJ: Oh yes. Um, can I name the names? 0.07.52.1 SL: Yes 0.07.52.2 CJ: I, uh, went to, we went to several churches. We went to Jerusalem Baptist Church when I lived on 10th Street, near 10th Street and Salem Avenue. When I lived on Salem Avenue, I went to, I think it was Norfolk Avenue I believe it was, we went to Jerusalem Baptist Church from the time I was a wee little thing and my grandmother would take us food in her basket and hide 'em in there. We'd sneak and eat 'em between, uh, services and things. We had church services and she kept us fed troops so we wouldn't cry. And later my sister, you know, was born 4 years later. She would take us to church, always in church. Um, then we moved to, um, 13th Street and she joined a different church, um, I'm trying to remember, we visited lots of churches on 12 ½ Street, that was a Holiness Church I remember. And we visited, also we visited several, also we visited several, Rose of Sharon. I remember going to that church. It was a Holiness Church. Uh, Jerusalem was a Baptist Church.. And eventually, we went to, um, um, on Roy (??) Avenue to Morninstar Baptist Church where I joined that church and made it my church home and I became quickly friends with the secretary of Sunday School and I was her helper and shortly after that I became the Sunday School teacher and I began really young, teaching, like, 4 year-olds, 3, 4 year-olds Sunday School every Sunday morning when I was about 13, 12 or 13 when I was doing that. And I was baptized there at the age of 12, uh, we didn't have a pool at that church. It was an underground church when I first went there. It was all underground and then we slowly build upstairs as it is known today. Its a, right now the church goes through the block. Its so much bigger now and um, the church didn't have a pool when I joined the church and there were about 7 of us to join that day and we were baptized by Noah C. Taylor (??) at the First Baptist, uh, at the High Street Baptist Church on High Street over where right now is where the Marin Luther King statue is on the bridge. The Church was the High Street Baptist Church over there at the time. Now its in Northwest Roanoke. Um, that's where we were baptized. They were our sister church. They had a pool and we didn't and they baptized all of our members. 0.10.26.7 SL: Very nice. What kind of work did your family do? 0.10.30.9 CJ: Um, the lady that raised me, um, well, she had several names. First her name was, her maiden name was Edna Dixon. Her father was Irish and Black. This is what she told me and her mother was some Native-American and Black. She come from a farming area. Her first husband was a miner. She had lived in West Virginia. But the kind of work she did was she had always been used to cleaning houses. As they do it now, they call it cleaning houses, back in those days we would call it other names. It was sort of like a maid. She had, she also worked as a nurse-maid. She also babysit other people's children over on Patterson Avenue on Ferdinand in Southwest. 0.11.24.1 SL: And she'd get paid for the babysitting. 0.11.24.2 CJ: And she'd get paid. I would go with her sometimes and we'd go over there and we'd clean houses, babysit, get the children to school, to the bus while the parent worked. Um, we also took in laundry. She was very good at ironing and washing and taught me really young to wash and sew and iron and embroider. And, um, we would take laundry into our house and wash it there on an old wringer washing machine and hang it out on the line. (Interviewer giggles) Then we'd iron what needed ironing and we'd return it to the family. Usually the families were in Old Southwest, Ferdinand, �Patterson. And we'd return them their laundry and they'd pay us and sometimes if we needed things really bad, if we were a little low on food, they would be really, always right there to help us out to give us a little extra loose to make it to the next pay period. This was our only living. My grandmother didn't work a job in an office or a factory. I think in her past, she worked in a canning factory years ago, but the only work she ever did that I knew of was to help other people, and then later on in life, as they grew older together, they were friends and they remained friends to the death. Uh, they came to her funeral and she went to their's. This was the people she worked for and the people that she worked for, they were always white but they treated us with respect and if we needed coal for heating for our house, we had a coal and wood furnace. If we needed coal for our house and was low on money, they would help us out with our bills, sometimes, things like that. We became great friends. 0.13.05.5 SL: That's wonderful. 0.13.05.6 CJ: Mm mm 0.13.05.7 SL: Uh, if you could talk to me about your school life. For instance, where did you attend school? Did you walk to school? Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? (Interviewer laughing) 0.13.17.6 CJ: I didn't want to. Um, the first school that I attended was Loudon Elementary School in Northwest Roanoke because that's where we could go to school. Back in those days, we couldn't go to school near my house, um, 'cause there was segregation and I went to Loudon Elementary School on Laodon Avenue in Northwest. It is now a park, Laoden Avenue Park. Um, I was not allowed to walk to school, it was too far away from my house. But, um, I think one time I sneaked with my friends and walked. Only once. (Laughing) And then, um, I went from 1st grade through 5th grade there and my 1st and 2nd grade teacher was -. My grandmother remarried again, uh, when we moved in that house, and it was my grandfather's cousin. I didn't learn this until I was graduating to 3rd grade, but I had found out then that, when she found out who I was related to and it was by marriage. She was wonderful, I just loved her. I loved all my teachers, I enjoyed being in school. I got good grades and I liked getting away from home 'cause I was on the other side of town which I hardly ever got to go to. We had one friend over there we used to visit on weekends sometimes, walking. We always walked, we didn't have a car. I never got like a ride to school in a car. We rode the bus everywhere we went or we walked. My grandmother didn't drive. My grandmother couldn't read or write. I taught her how to write her name and sign documents, that way, but she never learned to read or write. She grew up in farming country in the Farmville, Virginia area and she had to work in the fields. They took her out of school in the 2nd grade. 0.15.09.0 SL: So when she went to school, you did a lot of the reading 0.15.09.6 CJ: I did a lot of the reading and writing for her. Uh, helped her write checks and she would sign them and I taught her how to write her signature. She didn't know how. I read letters. I wrote letters to my mother and read letters from my mother and from her relatives because she couldn't read at all. I read documents and mail she got in the mail at a very young age. I started doing this at 8 years of age at least and I caught the bus at the foot of the hill where I lived and my cat followed me down there everyday and met me when I came back. And, uh, I then went to at 6th grade, I graduated to Harrison, where the Harrison Museum is. I loved it there. My teachers were wonderful. Um, from there I went to Booker T. 0.16.02.4 SL: The high school? 0.16.02.6 �CJ: Booker T. Junior, uh, Middle School. 0.16.02.7 SL: OK 0.16.02.9 CJ: Back then, we called it Junior High and I had to ride the bus to all these places. Then, at that school, I was able to ride the city bus. They allowed us to ride the city bus for 15 cents and, uh, 'cause back then - I had a great time, good school, great friends. Uh, I didn't have a lot of friends. I wasn't most popular. I was quiet they say. But I'm not now, I was quiet then (Interviewer laughing) and shy. My life was a lot not known to - it was a quiet life with an elderly parent, grandparent so I didn't mix in with the others who had like young parents who went to parties, things like that. So, I stayed home a lot. I went to church, home, school and I visited friends that I was told that I could visit that she knew their families only. 0.17.01.1 SL: How much schooling did you complete? 0.17.03.7 CJ: I completed high school and I was number 39 in my class. I got to go, I went to, I completed at Lucy Addison High School, um four years after my husband. He graduated the year that I began going to high school so I never met him in school and then he went on to the military so I never met him until he got out of the military. Um, when, um, I was sick during the school year in high school. I enjoyed cosmetology. I wanted to get into hair. I liked playing with my dolls hair as I was growing up and I enjoyed playing doctor/nurse with my dolls and I enjoyed playing church and, um, was being a mom. So those were the things I got interested in. Um, I, um, was good at Biology. I got sent away to a Biology Regional. I didn't do the greatest because I didn't have a lot of Chemistry experience but I did great in the Biology Department. I made straight A's in Biology. I loved it. In Cosmetology, I learned a lot. I did hair for people at school and after on evenings and weekends I did hair from my home for friends and family. 0.18.11.9 SL: Did you get paid for that? 0.18.14.2 CJ: I got paid 2 or 3 dollars because it was illegal for me to do it without a license. So, it was just family and friends and they would give me tips, 2 or 3 dollars, 5 dollars tops and I do hair and back then I was only allowed, we weren't allowed to cut, I just did like, we didn't have perms until, they just were beginning. Back in those days, I did, uh, hot combs. I did washes, hot combs, um, it wasn't a big thing to roll and set unless you had a certain kind of hair. My hair could be rolled and set but most of my friends couldn't be. And I did a lot of elderly. I grew up with elderly people so I had a lot of elderly friends more than I did young and I did a lot of elderly people, uh, ladies' hair who were friends of my grandmother. And, um, then I, at school, I also was, uh, interested, I became interested in art when I was 8 years-old. When I moved to the new neighborhood, I met a really good friend and we became best friends. We were in 3rd grade together. She was large and I was small and friends, our not good friends at school called her “fatty” and they called me “bony”, “skinny”. So we became friends 'cause no one, you know, we were kind to each other and we still remain best friends today. Um, she drew a little bit and I watched her and I thought it was wonderful. She came from a huge family and I stayed at her house a lot. Her big sisters were my big sisters. Her dad was my dad. And, um, her mom just made herself my mom and I enjoyed their house. I spent the night only probably once at their house. I wasn't allowed to spend the night at others' homes. 0.19.49.2 SL: How old were you during this time? 0.19.52.4 CJ: During this time, I was like pre-teen and teenage. We did each others hair and they sneaked and let �me wear their clothes. During so also at this time, you asked me about walking to school, I was never allowed to walk to school, it was too far away. My grandmother was a really over-protective grandmother. And, they would help me, I had other friends in the Hurt Park area that we would meet up with and occasionally they, people would come by the bus stop where I caught the bus and they would say, (whispered) “Let's walk”. And, said, “No one's looking”, and I'd say at least six times I walked to school. Once, I walked to school in the snow and slid down the hill behind Burrel Memorial Hospital, and we slid down the hill to the road and walked across. It was so much fun because I didn't, I was raised by elderly people. I wasn't allowed much out so when I could get to be with young friends, it was a lot a fun and at church. So that's why I always grew up in church and love going to school and not missing. I got perfect attendance most of the time because it was nice to get out around young people because I was raised by the elderly. 0.20.57.7 SL: Did either you or any of your family members ever attend college? 0.21.01.7 CJ: Uh, I was the only -, when I finished high school, uh, like I said I was 39th and they wanted to give me a scholarship but my grandmother was real skeptical of things and she was really eery (sic) of her money as she had very little most of the time. So what she did was she told them that she was sorry, she refused to sign any documents saying that I could go to college on a scholarship or anything like that because they told me that I qualified for a scholarship and I had several teachers try and help me get one. Um, during the time, uh, my 12th grade year, some of the conditions that I had lived in were not the greatest and it was discovered somewhat by accident when they called my grandmother in to talk to her about me going to college and when they, uh, when she, uh, explained to them her belief, fell on her beliefs, they were perturbed because they felt like, you know, this child deserves this and she's earned this and they felt like, and she told them, spoke her mind as to what she believed and didn't believe and then they realized how much I had been not allowed to participate in and the environment of my home and they said, um, that I, um, they felt bad and they tried their best to try to talk her into please signing and letting me go to college and she told them that she, they made her angry enough to just literally bless them out. So then they realized just how she felt about things and how her temperament could be and they felt bad for me but there was nothing they could do. I was graduating from high school, but they did have a program that I could go to call OIC and, uh, they told all of the students that a couple of days before graduation and when I graduated from high school, she had wanted me to earn money and bring money home to pay back her for raising me and I didn't want to work at just a convenience store or a burger joint, I wanted to do like they said I could do. They said I could do great things with my education that I, with my grades. So I went to OIC and, uh, she had to sign me in but she refused and someone helped me sign in. I went there and took some classes and they discussed some jobs I could go into, some classes. I ended up going to the Burrel Memorial Licensed Medical School of Nursing, free, and they paid all my, everything I needed down to the watch and the clothes and the books. And I went there and I was one of 13 graduates that made it through. 44 students signed up. I was one of the 13 who made it. 0.23.49.5 SL: So you got your nursing degree... 0.23.51.3 CJ: I got my nursing degree and from there I was able to earn money and not live low income and about the time I graduated, uh, I met my husband. He had just returned from the Vietnam tour of the Navy in Vietnam. 0.24.07.5 SL: Well, you've described a little bit of your home life with the way that your grandmother was and having to stay at home and the back door bathrooms and things like that. 0.24.21.1 �CJ: We had a bathroom at that second house that had feet on it. We had a bathroom with feet, you know, a big tub. 0.24.28.1 SL: The tub with the claw feet? CJ: With the little claw feet. 0.24.30.4 SL: Oh my goodness. What did you do usually when you were at home? Did you gather around the radio in the evenings? Did you have like, talk on the telephone, uh, read stories? 0.24.41.3 CJ: My grandmother was a great storyteller. She was a very religious woman. My grandmother believed in church and home and friends. She didn't believe in partying, or, well, she believed in, uh, having partying but only for the adults not for any teenagers or children. She had her own form of partying with her friends. I could party with her with her friends but not with mine that much. What we did, allowed to do mostly was we were allowed to sit around the radio. Eventually, we got a TV. I was allowed to watch TV when I was told I could. I had a curfew on the TV. I was allowed to talk on the telephone only when I was allowed to and that was very little. I wasn't allowed to have telephone friends, only on special occasions was I allowed on the phone. I was allowed to work in the kitchen whenever she would let me in and she didn't like you under her feet in the kitchen cooking. She was a great cook but she didn't want to teach me to cook. She said it bothered her to have you when she was cooking. But she did teach me to embroider and sew by hand. We were allowed to listen to Christian music only. She let Elvis in because he did some Christian music so we could listen to Elvis. (Interviewer laughing) And so we got some Rock in there. But I wasn't allowed to listen to traditional Black Rhythm and Blues, Rock n Roll. I was not allowed to listen to any of that type of music except when I got out of the house and got around friends occasionally I could hear that. She didn't believe in it. She believed it was, um, would lead to sin. (Interviewer laughing) So, um, I was allowed to, uh, draw and I loved to draw and I got a sewing machine of my own when I was in nursing training. I earned it with my student stipend and I paid my little payments to Barr Brothers Jewelers and got me a little sewing machine and then I began to sew. Eventually, I made my wedding gown. 0.26.43.6 SL: You made your own wedding gown? 0.26.45.6 CJ: Mm mm 0.26.45.9 SL: Well, wonderful. You said that you liked to sit out on the porch in the evening. Would you talk to other people while you were out there, just sit and talk the people. 0.26.56.1 CJ: We talked to the children in the neighborhood. They were allowed to sit close by. Once I had a tea party with the little boy down the street from a foster home. We had a house down the street, down the hill from me, a mother who had grown children and a husband. They were raising 4 foster boys and one of them was very quiet and shy and, um, for some reason he came up and my grandmother said, they began to tease us and said that he was my boyfriend and so they went in to make tea and brought tea and cookies out. This is a one occasion, one time occasion, and they said that we were having tea and cookies together and everyone was shocked because I was shy and he was shy. So they thought that we should, I should have some fun and do that and we did it on the porch. We had also, my grandmother remarried again. She was widowed three times. The third marriage was a wonderful man. He was a Christian man. I loved him dearly. Her second husband that when we first moved to that house... 0.28.04.2 SL: This is the house on 13th Street? �0.28.04.9 CJ: The house on 13th Street. He only lived for about 8 months. He was very ill. Shortly after we moved into that house, we found out that he was mentally ill and that, the truth is that he was very abusive and so, soon after he was confined to a mental institution and they were only married about 8 months before he died and so she married again in about 5 years later, between 4 and 5 years later, a very sweet man from Blacksburg, VA. He was just a wonderful male figure for me and he had a cousin that lived two doors down and we didn't know it at the time until they married, and I think he was visiting his cousin when they met and the cousin down the street had an orchestra like, he had a little band and during the summers, once a year during the summers, they would have like a little set-up in the neighborhood, right out in the middle of the street and on the sidewalks and they'd, of course, close off the street and entertain the whole neighborhood there and play gospel music. And it was just wonderful, I remember. 0.29.10.5 SL: Would you sit on the front porch and watch? 0.29.12.1 CJ: We sat on the porch. I could actually go down and sit on their porch and I could actually, people would bring chairs out and sit in chairs and listen. 0.29.19.4 SL: Very nice. 0.29.20.9 CJ: The whole neighborhood... 0.29.21.1 SL: Did you have any particular chores that you had to do around the house on a regular basis? 0.29.26.8 CJ: Very young, I had to do chores. When we had family and relatives and things in, I would have to clean up behind relatives that would come in and visit. So I learned very early to clean and plus I told you we cleaned houses together, so, I learned very early how to clean and then, um, I was always the person who did like the bathroom cleaning and the dusting, I was the dusting person and washed dishes a lot. I love washing dishes. She said if I grew up, she says, “You'll grow out of that and you won't want to do it after a while”. (Both laughing) But, um, it took me a long time to not enjoy cleaning, cooking, 'cause it was something that she liked. I especially liked washing clothes and hanging them on the line. Something that a lot of kids didn't like. By me being raised by an elderly parent, I learned joys in doing things that a lot of young people didn't enjoy today or back then and things like laundry and, to the day, I still enjoy doing laundry. Occasionally, I hang laundry on the line. But, um, I grew up really, really young, enjoying watching, seeing a nice clean home because it gave me that feeling that I enjoy a job well done. I learned that from her. On my job, the jobs that I've done, I've gotten lots of compliments being a really good worker and getting my job done thoroughly. 0.30.46.1 SL: Let's see, um, do you have any particular family stories that were passed down from one generation to another? Did your grandmother have, you know, like special family recipes or a special family story that she would always tell? 0.31.02.1 CJ: We always did all the canning together. I wrote a story called, “A Country Morning In The City” and its the story of how my, I added to it a little bit. Basically, it happened. This is back when we lived on Salem but some of this continued where they would bring meats from the country. You know, fresh meat, chilled meats and they would, we would, he would bring apples and fruits from the country, uh, I would call it the country that they lived in because she was raised in the Farmville/Prospect area. What her relatives would do, they would come up to visit us and she had relatives that lived here in town, just one and we'd go to her house, wonderful there, wonderful cook. And we'd go over there to dinner �sometimes and this was in Northwest on Mormon Road, a big beautiful house. Her cousin, her first cousin who never had any children and her husband and we'd go over there for special dinners and she'd teach me to cook over there because she loved having children around and teaching them things. We also had neighbors in the neighborhood who loved to cook and would show me things but she didn't and didn't have children. But, uh... 0.32.08.2 SL: Was there a special recipe or secret recipe? 0.32.09.7 CJ: There was pickling and canning fruits and vegetables. Um, but, um, my grandmother, she cooked so well everything....pound cakes, sweet potato pies. I love them now. I'm trying to think of some specialty things, um, cabbages, cooked special ways. 0.32.33.2 SL: Did they have a special family story that they would pass down such as -? 0.32.39.7 CJ: Well we had sad stories and good stories. My grandmother was always fearful of fire because her twin brother died in a fire. Her mother was a midwife and her mother was delivering one of her first cousins when her brother played in their fireplace back when she was growing up in down in the counties of Farmville area, Prospect, in and around there, Pampling City, down in that area. They lived out in the wilderness-like and they had, they used to cook ash cakes in the fireplace back in the those days. They had a lot of Native-American traits. Her father had a lot of Irish traditions that he kept up 'cause he was Irish and Black and then her mother was Native-American and Black and they, um, cooked a lot of ash cakes in the fireplace. But when her mother was out delivering, she watched her brother play in the fireplace pretending to cook ash cakes and a twig had caught on fire and his clothes caught on fire and she couldn't help him. They were twins together at 5 years of age. She had to protect herself. That was a sad story and happy stories were when they would ride horses. I rode a horse once and I wrote a poem about it down there in Farmville. They would do like, its sorta little like “Little House On The Prairie”. They described it like that. The would have like little get-togethers and make apples, make different kinds of wines. My grandmother was really good at making wine. That's another thing we used to do is make wines and ciders. She taught us that really young, watching her do that. Like I said, every kind of preserves and my story that I wrote is about, is called, it says, “Everything Apples” in the story because the lady with her cousin from the country would bring up cousin Mandy, what we called her, her name was Amanda, Amanda Vaughn and she'd bring up apples in her big truck and we would make all kinds of apple things. I would wake up in the morning and smell apples and come out there and watch them do these things and we'd watch them make apples. My grandmother's specialty, come to think of it, was watermelon rind preserves. We'd have watermelons and save them from the summer and take the green part inside lining and the skin and make watermelon rind preserves. She taught me that well. 0.35.02.1 SL: That sounds really great. What did you usually just put it on? Like bread? 0.35.07.6 CJ: Yes, mostly on breads, toast, it was very good. 0.35.11.6 SL: It sounds very good. 0.35.12.5 CJ: It is. (interviewer laughing) 0.35.12.9 SL: You said that, uh, your husband served in the military, um, in the Vietnam War. Did he bring any stories back from that? 0.35.22.6 �CJ: One kind of sad story, his ship took a direct hit and he has a Bronze Star on his license tag on his car because they took a direct hit. Only one soldier was injured. He was not injured, just frightened a lot. And witnessed the other soldier injured, um, they took a direct hit. They lost their ship. They later recovered it. It had a large burn hole in it. They were hit by a torpedo. 0.35.54.3 SL: Wow. 0.35.55.7 CJ: Mm mm. 0.35.56.5 SL: Was that his worst story? 0.35.57.8 CJ: I think that was one of his worst stories. His other stories were like good places he went. He travelled a lot of places, Italy, Spain, uh, Japan. My mother and my stepfamily, they lived in Okinawa, Japan for 3 years and they sent me lots of souveniers from there. When I married, they couldn't be there because they were stationed in Okinawa and they couldn't come. My husband brought home slides. He had lots of slides of places that he, some Vietnamese pictures he brought some of them home too. 0.36.38.0 SL: So he took slides of...? 0.36.40.0 CJ: He took slides and photographs of all his trips. 0.36.42.4 SL: Wonderful. 0.36.42.9 CJ: And he had been in the Navy. He also is retired from the Naval, he's retired from the US Navy and he's also retired from the -. How he did that, he came back and joined the reserves. And in the reserves, they were sent on many missions and some of the missions they were sent on were in the reserves. He took pictures in Honduras and places like that that he had to go on missions. 0.37.05.6 SL: So he's been a world traveler. He's a well-traveled man there. (Chuckle) You said that there was a little shop, and like a little gas station. 0.37.15.0 CJ: Mm mm. 0.37.15.5 SL: Is there a particular store of business that you guys would go to all the time when you were growing up? 0.37.18.5 CJ: Yes. When I was growing up, we lived right down the street from the Garst Brothers Dairy and my neighbor, the dad worked there, well, we called him the dad. He was really her uncle. Her aunt and uncle raised her. She was my best friend on Salem Avenue. And her, her name was Billie. Her uncle worked at the Garst Brothers Dairy and the neighborhood where I live in now, I live on Garst Lane Drive. Its the family home of the Garst people who owned that dairy. 0.37.52.6 SL: So you lived in their neighborhood? 0.37.54.1 CJ: So I live in now, the home area. I live in their, the children's home. What happened in that neighborhood where I lived, there's a big house at the top of the hill where I live and its the old Garst home. Its a big white house with a summer house in back and a big yard and a pool. And, all the children came around and lived in that area. This is in Northwest and a man, a cousin of the family �who has since passed, told me the history when I moved in the neighborhood years, about some 30 some years ago. And he told me that the streets were named after the areas and also were named after the marriages of the children. One of the children married a Lancaster, so there's a Lancaster Avenue. One of the children married a man named Michael. I don't know if that was his first or last name, but the street behind me is called Michael Street because of it. They also had horses. They had cows. It was a dairy farm mostly so what they did was they had several kinds of cows and they named the streets after the cows where they were. They had an apple orchard and its called Appleton Avenue. It heads toward Peters Creek Road and its called Appleton Avenue. That's where the apple grove was and I live on Garst Land leading up to the family home but the street perpendicular to me is called Guernsey Lane and that's where they kept the Guernsey cows and the street that it goes into is called Angus Road, that's where they kept the Angus cows and like all the names have different family names or animal names or orchard names. 0.39.38.8 SL: Nice. 0.39.39.4 CJ: They told me that the man who sat me down when I moved in the neighborhood and told me the story of the neighborhood. And the Garst Brothers Dairy in Southwest on Salem Avenue is where we all, we'd gather together on hot summer days and meet Mister Paul, her uncle and he would come out and give us the leftovers of the popsicles and we'd eat Brown Bears, you know what I'm talkin' about. They're like popsicles. They have another name now I'm sure they call them now. Ice cream, vanilla popsicles covered in chocolate dipped. 0.40.11.6 SL: Oh Yeah. 0.40.12.1 CJ: And he would bring out the leftovers that they were just going to discard and throw away and they would give it to Mr. Paul for him to give to the neighborhood kids and we would all sit around the back door of the dairy and we'd eat the popsicles and I remember that. 0.40.26.5 SL: That's kinda the ones that didn't come out right or -? 0.40.28.8 CJ: The ones that were left over that we were getting, I guess, getting outdated. 0.40.32.4 SL: OK 0.40.33.8 CJ: They would have like an ice cream truck that would go around and deliver ice cream and milk. They had milk trucks, you know, and then they had -. We got our milk through to. They would deliver milk to our houses, the milk man and then later on there was Pet, and we'd have like, it was competition between the Garst's and Pet. And we lived right there on the Garst, on the street with the Garst Brothers Dairy and, um, Mr. Paul would bring us home some leftovers sometimes too. 0.41.01.3 SL: Very nice. You said there was a Pet, I've seen that in some of -. 0.41.06.1 CJ: The Pet dairy 0.41.06.2 SL: Yeah, I've seen the cans of Pet milk and sometimes in the convenient stores around here. 0.41.11.6 CJ: But there was a Pet dairy also. 0.41.13.1 SL: Did they buy out the Garst Brothers? �0.41.15.2 CJ: I think later on it was, and they changed it to Pet. Its something else now. Its a factory or corporation now. I watched a lot of those buildings go up that are there now. Greybar is one of the factories that -. Its like a wholesale, I think its wholesale machinery or something that they made there. I watched them build that. There was also a Lance. They had bakeries, dry cleaners, places like that at the time right across the street from my house. They've since long gone, but, like I said, there was a hotel. But see when I moved up to 13th Street, it was really a residential area. We had neighborhood groceries. I worked in one of the neighborhood groceries off Salem Avenue and 13th Street. The Wiggins Grocery is now a church. I worked in that store and then sometimes in the, I think it was called Monseur (??). They were their cousins. There were all these people, they were Lebanese and when they would have Lebanese, uh, parties and weddings, I took care of the children to the Wiggins family who were Lebanese and helped raise their 5 daughters and went to their weddings when they grew up. That's where I first saw my father was at the Wiggins Store. But, um, there's a store called Libby's. Its still real popular today on Salem Avenue, really famous. 0.42.42.5 SL: I've seen that. 0.42.42.7 CJ: They were cousins also. All these people were cousins and I would go to their family reunions and help with the food serving and I also learned a lot of Lebanese food and they helped teach me a little bit how to do it and taste it and learn about it. They taught me some of their family history and learned the music. 0.42.59.9 SL: Great. Can you tell me what your fondest childhood memory is? For example, did you have a favorite holiday event, favorite family vacation, a special gift that you received? I know its hard to pick a favorite. (Both laughing) 0.43.14.9 CJ: Well my favorite place was playing in my playhouse in the crawlspace underneath the back porch where we could play church and doctor and school. I always enjoyed that the most because the playhouse doctor's story I wrote is about my neighbors. I had neighbors who come as far as 12th Street and, uh, 12 1/2th/12th Street, sometimes 11th Street, people would come all the way up and we'd play church and we'd baptize and we'd have a like a Holy Spirit to come in like at church and we'd pray. But we'd also have, we played school and I enjoyed being the teacher and I work as a teacher now and I enjoyed playing doctor and nurse and I was always the surgeon and a doctor and I'm a nurse now. And, uh, we would gather up things, go into the house and gather up cotton balls and pour red Kool-Aid over 'em and we'd, I found forceps in my house. The lady who lived there, one of my grandfather's former wives, was very ill and had a visiting home doctor that would come in back in those days to your home and she died, I think of a heart attack. But she also had some other ailments and back then you could call the doctor and he would come to your home and some of his utensils got left there. And I had forceps and I had tweezers and I had some things of his. So, I took a big-old silver bowl and I poured Kool-Aid and cotton balls in there and we'd pretend like they were tonsils that we were removing from the children. (Interviewer laughs) We just made it like real-life. We'd make mud pies and act like we were cooking dinner and put grass in it and like vegetables. We played school. We go out and get paperwork and be the teacher and I had a family up the street from me, the Mayo (??) Family. The mom was a single mom. The children were raised by grandmother and mom and she had 10 children, two sets of twins and they were allowed to come to my house because we had the big fenced-in back yard and they had a big 2 story house but their backyard was open with no fence and she'd allow them to come down with special permission. I went up and asked special permission. And we would teach them, they were all younger then me, and we would teach them, have church with them and we would have, um, cook with them and we would have sometimes, my grandmother would give us real food and �it was like, that was my fond memories. That's why I wrote that story “The Playhouse Doctors”. 0.45.50.4 SL: The playing under the house thing. 0.45.52.9 CJ: And we also went to the country like I told you in the summers, we would go to Statesville, North Carolina, to visit a friend she met, the Gaither family. And then we had another, we'd go visit her relatives also in Farmville. That's cousin Mandy's and they were sharecroppers and they had a big farm but they were paid to keep the farm but they didn't own the farm and they were allowed some of the food and vegetables and therefore we'd, they'd give us a share and bring to us in Roanoke from Farmsville. 0.46.25.7 SL: And you'd make the preserves.... 0.46.26.8 CJ: That's when we would ride, I rode a horse for the first time and I wrote a poem about it. 0.46.31.1 SL: How old were you when you rode the horse? 0.46.33.5 CJ: I believe the night I was just about engaged, I didn't ride the horse until I was about 19 and I had just finished nursing school and went to, took my husband down there to meet them and he was still asleep in the uncle's room and I had slept with an aunt and one of the cousins. And one of the cousins came by riding his horse and I was awake and my husband was still sleeping. He had done all the driving and my grandmother was there and her cousin, this was her cousin, my adoptive grandmother's cousin, and his name was Emanuel. He was 6'3” or 4”, he was really tall. He had a tall horse and her name was Annie. He gave Annie an apple and he said I want you to ride ______ (??) around. And, well, he told, I didn't know this, I didn't hear him, and he came up behind me, he was a jokester and he teased me and he picked me up and put me on Annie and I didn't, no saddle, this was bareback and he didn't, he thought that Annie was gentle to him and obeyed him. But, for some reason, she didn't like me and she 0.47.40.5 SL: Oh my goodness. 0.47.40.7 CJ: She took off with me and I held to the mane and she rode me around the farm. 0.47.45.6 SL: Oh my. 0.47.45.9 CJ: Between the bushes, the hedges and the trees with me screaming and in shock. (Interviewer laughs) I mean I didn't scream a lot. I was in shock mostly and I wrote a poem about it and, um, it was my first experience riding a horse. After that, I rode a pony once at a kiddie, uh, thing we did to raise money through my job, when I was in college. I did my internship at Grandin Road Reach, and they did like a pony show and that was the second time I had ever been on a horse. But this was a fullgrown horse I was riding and he whistled and blew and made noises and finally she calmed down and brought me back to him and he slapped his thigh and she bend down and let me off and I was still in shock. (Interviewer laughs). But I never fell off. If was just this scary, giddy-scary experience and I wrote a poem about it. I like to write poetry. 0.48.45.6 SL: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? Has it mostly been nursing, you mentioned about teaching? 0.48.51.8 CJ: I've done many many jobs. Um, I started out at 9 years of age. I always loved children. I always �loved children. When I was 7 years old we would go to the country in North Carolina, Statesville. A lady there we met was the daughter of the people that my grandmother knew. She had married the Gaither family. She had 9 children. Every year, she had a new baby. We'd go down there. The first time I did it, it scared 'em. I was 7. They couldn't find the baby. I had the baby. Well, after that, every year I would go down there and they'd hand me the baby because I loved babies so much and I would -. They would say, “Where's Carolyn?”. “Oh, she's somewhere with the baby. She's not out playing, she's with the baby”. (Interviewer laughs) And I just love babies. And so then, um, I also used to enjoy, I enjoy interior decoration. I've always enjoyed that. I used to go to friend's homes in the neighborhood, just enjoy decorating their homes. I always enjoyed cleaning and not so much sewing right at first but when I really really young, I mean 8 years of age, I would love going in and reorganizing their furniture and moving it around and some light sewing, you know. But then, um, I also enjoyed going with them to ball games. Some of these people took me to ball games, something I had never done before. 0.50.28.0 SL: Where did you go to the ball games? In Salem? 0.50.30.5 CJ: There was a park, I think, you know back then I think it was Ma Field (??)and that's the same thing as, um, hmm, I can't think of it, right over here, what is it? 0.50.41.1 SL: Highland Park? 0.50.41.4 CJ: No, its the same thing where Victory Stadium is now. 0.50.45.3 SL: Oh, OK. 0.50.45.6 CJ: Back then, we used to go there and it was like the ball field and you could go and watch the ball games. People just played baseball. 0.50.52.1 SL: Did you just sit on the grass? 0.50.54.2 CJ: Um, we walked around a lot. I'm thinking we did sit on the grass. We'd take blankets. Mr. Paul used to take me, the same man that worked at the Pet Dairy. 0.51.04.1 SL: OK Um, so as far as jobs that you've had -. 0.51.08.4 CJ: Oh yeah, um, I'm sorry. 0.51.09.6 SL: That's OK. 0.51.10.6 CJ: I started out really young when I started doing that and then I moved up to working for the people that were Lebanese and I cleaned and did most of the cleaning and babysitting. I worked my way up. They didn't trust me with the babies right at first as I was just 9 years of age. But I did have that history where I had started at 7. I mostly at first did, like, cleaning and laundry and as the babies began to come, because it was a newlywed, the daughter was a newlywed couple and lived with the mom, helped her run the store. The mom was up in age and the daddy just passed. The granddaddy had just passed to the children. And, I began to babysit the children. The children took a liking to me real young and as she had 5 girls, I babysat those girls and went to school and when I was 17, it was just too much doing schoolwork and doing babysitting and cleaning so I did it in the summers some and then until I was 17. And, uh, I, like I said, I went to OIC and went to school a little bit there and anything I �was low in, math was not a high point for me so they helped bring my math up to the point I was able to get into nursing school and they, like I said, paid my way and put me through that. And I graduated -. 0.52.30.3 SL: What was the name of the school? 0.52.30.3 CJ: It was Lucy Addison Burrel Memorial Hospital School of Nursing. Mrs. Smith was my teacher and Mrs Stuart. They helped me through a lot and some of my classmates also ended up there. I could've taken it in high school but I didn't know about it. Back then, you could go to high school in your senior year and take Nursing. I wasn't allowed to do anything like that thought as my grandmother wouldn't allow me to go too many places so it wouldn't have worked for me but I went through OIC and they paid for all my equipment and everything. I started at 17. I turned 18 a month after I started. My birthday was in September, I started late August. I finished the class, 18 months later around May or June and I took a little bit of some extra classes afterwards in the summer and started my first job working as a nurse, LPN, at Community Hospital. I worked there and then for about, I had just met my husband. I worked there for about 2 years. Uh, after I had worked there about 2 years and was married, the shifts were just really hard on me, working evening shifts and being young and married, working. I didn't get to see my husband a lot because of the shifts he worked and so then I eventually stopped doing the nursing. I wasn't feeling well. I just got to where I wasn't feeling well. I had been told as a teenager that I would never have any children. Um, I took a job working... I went back to OIC and took some classes to try to get into business, you know, like an office job and I took it only for a short time, uh, we needed some money and I wanted, we wanted to get a house of ours. I went to school for a short time at OIC and took some business classes and learned kinda quickly really. I took some shorthand, bookkeeping, typing. Before I could finish any of that, I was offered a job. So I took a job for an insurance company called Traveler's Medicare and I worked there for about 2 months and the company decided to move to Richmond. And then, during that time, I started feeling really ill and I, when the company moved, they said that if you can go, move to Richmond you can go. My husband didn't want me to and I didn't really want to move. So, a friend there was a nurse also and she got a job and she put in several offers for jobs and 3 people called her for jobs. She told one of them about me and they hired me and it was Blue Cross, Blue Shield Medicaid. 0.55.14.5 SL: Oh, OK. 0.55.14.9 CJ: Uh, shortly after I worked there, I got really ill and I began going to the doctor. They did several tests on me. They didn't know what was wrong with me. It took them 2 months to find out that I was a month pregnant. (Both laughing.) 0.55.29.5 SL: And they had said you weren't supposed to be able to have kids. 0.55.35.8 CJ: Right, so I worked there for about 7 or 8 months and then I left there. They gave someone else my job and so I went back, after having the baby, I went back to doing private duty nursing every now and then. So I went back to that. But, meanwhile, I did some nursing, I did private duty. As my child grew, I wanted to be home with her some. I stayed home some with her but then I found a job working as, I wanted to go back to work when she was about 3. I did some nursing home work a little bit parttime. And, it was midnights and that wasn't good. I didn't sleep well during the day so I eventually took a job at a place called Equifax Services working as a file clerk because that's what I had done at this insurance company. I was a file clerk and some hours a claims adjuster and so I went to Equifax Services that did, what they did is they did investigations for insurance companies to find out if the �records that you gave them were legitimate. They really investigated you because it was a house insurance, fire insurance, car insurance and some of the policies were million-dollar policies so they investigated the people. I worked there for 4 years and then I moved from there and went to Liberty Mutual Insurance Company for a short time. I was putting my daughter through private school. She was having some difficulty learning in public and I put her in private for 3 years and then I moved her back to public and she did well. But I went to a place called Allstate Finance and worked a while and it was just very tedious. All different kinds of jobs. 0.57.15.5 SL: So a medical office kind of thing? 0.57.15.5 CJ: Mm mm. I did a lot of medical office and I had always wanted to be a teacher too, and, um, so what happened was I ended up back doing a lot of private part-time nursing mostly because full-time nursing was kind of hard for me. But eventually, my daughter when she was 9 or 10, I ended up taking in some children to raise in the family. I took some children in that were, their mother was not fit to raise them and she was single. But I took them in. I ended up still getting a nursing job at the VA Medical Center. I went to work there and worked there for 5 and ½ years. While I was there, I became ill. It was just too much for me. I felt I had a heart condition I had had since young childhood and didn't realize it, a heart murmur and a mitral valve problem so I got out of nursing then, slowly, I needed the money. I got out of nursing slowly by going to Virginia Western to try to see if I could go to college. I did very well in college and eventually earned a scholarship and I was going to get into architecture. I always liked arts. But, after taking in these children I took in, some of them had physical difficulties, emotional difficulties and it was going to put me away from home a lot from them so I gave up on the architecture and ended getting into early-childhood education. I got my Associate's Degree in that with the scholarship and worked part-time at Friendship Manor Nursing Home on weekends. 0.58.47.9 SL: I think I know where that is. Its down Williamson, a little further than Herschberger? 0.58.52.4 CJ: Mm mm. I worked there weekends only and I only worked every other weekend so I could spend time with my family still. And then I finished my, when I finished and got my degree, I put in 18 different applications. Honeytree Early Learning Center in Salem was the first to call me and so I went there to work and I worked there, I went to work there.... 0.59.13.0 SL: That's the one next to Lewis Gayle, right? 0.59.13.4 CJ: Its the one, no, next to the VA Medical Center. 0.59.16.9 SL: Oh, OK. 0.59.17.0 CJ: I worked there for 8 ½ years then I decided to venture back into some nursing to see how they're doing nursing. I went back to nursing but it was just too much. I did it for 4 months at the Berkshire in Vinton. And they asked my daughter to please talk me into not leaving. I got attached to the elderly. I've always been attached to the elderly and the very young. And I think its because as a young child, I was raised by adoptive parents, grandparent. And I always felt for children, I've always had a feel for children who were adopted, foster homes, just not wanted and when I was a young child, my desire was, I didn't understand the Catholic faith and I thought to be a nun, all you had to do was to be a nun and I said I want to be a nun and then you could take in children, homeless children so I said I want to be a nun when I grow up. (Interviewer laughing) I found out that wasn't true so then I, in between being in nursing, I always tried to help children who were sick. I enjoyed working with sick children. �I did eventually, like I said, take in children to raise. I helped a lot of people raise their children throughout my life. If they were having problems, I would take their child in for 3 or 4 days and give them back to 'em. I've done that a lot. 1.00.32.0 SL: So you've been essentially a foster mother in certain respects. 1.00.36.1 CJ: Mm mm. And I've taken in children in my husband's family and raised them and they are 3 of my children that I listed. 1.00.42.7 SL: Frank, Latonya and Douglas? 1.00.44.2 CJ: Mm mm. And I raised them from 1 ½, 2 ½ and 4½. 1.00.51.3 SL: So you were pretty much their mother during a lot of the time. 1.00.54.9 CJ: They call me mom. I've been their mom since I've had 'em. Um, I work now. When I left the Berkshire, my daughter was taking exercise classes. She's also in childcare and she worked in childcare right out of high school. She took it in high school and my daughter is a middle school special education teacher's aide, teaching assistant. She is very good with children also. When I took in those children to raise, she was very good at helping me. She bonded with them right away. They're real close. She's my only child. I had many miscarriages. I had always wanted a big family. I had many miscarriages. I lost twins and several single births. 1.01.42.7 SL: But you did have your one daughter? 1.01.44.4 CJ: I had my one daughter. She's the one I had when I worked at the insurance company. 1.01.48.3 SL: Oh, OK. I have a few other questions about the Roanoke area. Did you ever use the public library. 1.01.56.2 CJ: Oh Gosh, yes. (Interviewer laughing) Growing up with parents who couldn't read or write, I often had to get help. I did have neighbors who helped me a lot in the 13th Street area. A lady, Miss Eva Perry (??) who was recently buried. I went to her funeral. She helped me a great deal, not having learned parents. She helped me with my homework a lot. She had a typewriter which we didn't have. I also forgot to tell you I work at First Baptist Church Child Development Center now. I've been there 11 years. I left Honeytree in the Berkshire and there. I just couldn't get away from the kids. And I work with 1 and 2 year-olds. Working with 1 year-olds turning 2, I love it. I'm going to try to retire next year but I'll probably volunteer, go back and volunteer. 1.02.42.2 SL: Have you ever thought of volunteering with the library? 1.02.44.3 CJ: I love it. I thought about it. I've met someone here when I come here. I've brought many teenage, my teenage children and stepchildren. I've brought them here and helped them with their homework. I am a tutor to everybody's child. (Laughing) I should work as a tutor. I have tutored my children, my adoptive children, my children, other people's children. I've tutored my -. When I was in college, I worked as a tutor as a matter of fact. I earned money that way to see me through college and with raising my family. I made $80 a month as a -. I worked in the work center, I think its called the work center, oh, the learning center at, uh, when I went to community college. 1.03.31.8 �SL: OK 1.03.31.9 CJ: I worked there, I called it my work stay (??) and I worked under a professor. Her name was Susan Trent and she told me, she says, uh, you should've been an English teacher. (Interviewer laughing) Because I worked with students mostly with their English because I was really good at writing, reading and just things to do with English, grammar. 1.03.56.2 SL: What particular library branches have you used the most would you say? 1.04.01.6 CJ: Um, I've come here a lot. 1.04.04.3 SL: To the main library? 1.04.04.9 CJ: To the main library 'cause a lot of times when the other libraries... I've gone to the Williamson Road a lot. I live in Northwest Roanoke. I've gone to the Landsdale occasionally. I've gotten the school that I work at, the First Baptist Church, I've gotten books there because I'm a teacher there and for my group times and when I do lesson plans, I often go to the library and get books concerning my lesson plans. My favorite lesson plan is around Thanksgiving. I do “The Relatives Came”. And I always come to get, um, we have it now at the church library. I also use our church library a lot and we have it now there. Its called “The Relatives Came”. Its by, I think her name is Carolyn Bryant and she's from West Virginia. 1.04.49.5 SL: Hmm 1.04.49.5 CJ: Its a story about a family who goes from Virginia to West Virginia to visit families, sleep, and its like out in the country and they sleep together in this small house on the floor, on the chairs and they love each other and they hug each other, they kiss each other and then they come home to the grapes in Virginia when they're ripe and they make grapes, they make grape everything. Like I talked about the apples in my family. And I always get, when it wasn't available at my job, I would always come to the library here, because we're right near my job. And I'd come here and get “The Relatives Came” and, but lots of times I come and get other books and take them back and I don't allow the children to touch them because they're 1 and 2 but I allow them to look at the big pictures as I tell the stories during group time during my lesson, whatever theory I'm on at the time. 1.05.37.6 SL: Very nice. Would you describe some culture events that have happened in Roanoke over time? I know you said there was like the little jazz band in the street. 1.05.45.8 CJ: Right, I remember that. 1.05.45.8 SL: You also had mentioned that you went to the ball games and things like this. Were there any other ones you would like to mention? 1.05.54.5 CJ: My grandmother always took us to the circus. 1.05.56.4 SL: The circus?! 1.05.56.4 CJ: And the circus we had, well she called it the fairgrounds. 1.06.01.4 SL: OK �1.06.01.4 CJ: And back then, it wasn't Victory Stadium or, it was really near the Civic Center. There was a place there, I don't know if it was the Kazim Temple then, 'cause I remember seeing the Kazim clowns but where we went was near Hotel Roanoke. Its right there on the spot near the Civic Center where the fountain, across from Hotel Roanoke, where the fountain flows. 1.06.28.4 SL: I think I know where you're talking about. 1.06.30.4 CJ: You know, it springs up and looks like a geyser. 1.06.32.9 SL: Yeah, I haven't been there much. 1.06.35.8 CJ: In the old days, there was a brick structure there and my grandmother called it the fairgrounds because they would have like an inside circus and an outside fair and it was like they do at the Civic Center in Salem in the summers. You know, they have like a, the animals, the cows and the horses. 1.06.54.5 SL: Were there lions and tigers? 1.06.56.1 CJ: Yeah, and they would do it there and she called it the circus 'cause she just called the whole thing the circus at the fairgrounds and we would go on the back of Mr. Paul's truck, 'cause he had a truck. And we'd go there at night and they'd have the rides, the Ferris wheel, the old-fashioned rides and we'd ride and they'd have the ponies and we'd go there at night and that was always the ritual that we would do that. 1.07.21.1 SL: Would it be like every summer? 1.07.22.7 CJ: Uh, yeah. They'd be every summer and it'd always be so hot. (Interviewer laughing) And we'd do it during the summer. 1.07.29.1 SL: Can you think of any strong community leaders that you had contact with and what roll did they play in your life? 1.07.37.3 CJ: My pastor, he was like my dad. He told me, uh, I was always grieving that I didn't get to live with my mom or dad, but especially my dad. I got to know my mom. I didn't get to know my dad at all and I went through a horrible time. My dad passed away without me knowing him and I thought he had passed away when I was a newborn. But, I found out that this was the theory and it was not true and it was to protect me, supposedly. But I found out that he had died right after he died and I couldn't be with him or anything. They took him away to bury him so I couldn't be with him. So, um, my father, I wasn't, I didn't feel comfortable talking a lot of times at home because I wasn't allowed to discuss these things so I talked to my pastor at Morningside Baptist Church where I, like I said, joined the church and they were just like my family. My pastor and his wife and some of the other church members there that I was close to and he said, “God is your father”. He said, “Whenever you feel alone, God is your father. Don't feel like you don't have a father.” And my mother had remarried, my stepfather, but they lived in Japan and they lived in Nevada and they lived in Colorado and far away places and I was never there. So, this pastor became like a father to me. Also, I used to babysit for Noel C. Taylor (??) who lived in the neighborhood of the mayor, who lived in the neighborhood of my church back in those days. The Henderson family was a Sunday School teacher there, she and her husband. I babysat for them. They were really mentors for me. Other mentors I had that I thought highly of were my teachers. They were just so wonderful to me, my teachers. They made me want to be a teacher. �(Interviewer giggles softly) And I had nurse friends that I knew across the street from my house that I looked up to them. They were nurses. 1.09.46.1 SL: Very nice. So I take it, the next question I have here was who were your role models but obviously they were your role models. 1.09.55.3 CJ: Yes, they were. Some of the families, also, when I was growing up, I was allowed to watch certain TV. Its old-fashioned I know and in my day, this is what was on TV and I think in a lot of ways it saved me, that and TV, that and church. I was allowed to watch TV and I was allowed to watch things like Father Knows Best, Lassie, Leave It To Beaver-type shows. I was allowed to watch National Velvet. Shows where there was always a mother, always a father, were church-going. You know what I mean? It was always a lot of values, lot of morals and even though in my lifetime growing up in my household, I saw a lot of things that were not very moral, not very good morals. I decided very young in age, some people might not agree with me, but, I looked up to Father Knows Best and I looked up to Lassie's dad, Lassie's, the little boy's dad. I looked up to the mom. I had neighbors in my neighborhood that were elderly retired school teachers and the husbands, some of them didn't have children, railroad retirement workers and their wives. They were my role models and I watched them and, like I said, we had some single family people in my neighborhood but there were very few. Most of the neighbors I lived around were retired married couples, widowed ladies who had been married and raised their families, just some really, those were my good role models. And at church, I had mostly married families. Occasionally, I ran into people who were not married and had children but it was very seldom. I had so many more that weren't, you know, I just had so many, most of the families were not single home families and my role models were also the people up the street that I told you about that, the girl that drew and she just kinda grew away from drawing and I was just so fascinated with her drawing that I began to copy everything she did. I liked her so much. I wanted to write like her, do everything she did. We were the exact same age and her older sisters, I looked up to them, they were good role models. They made A's and B's in school. Back then, it was E's and B's. (Interviewer laughing) I don't think it was B's. It was like E's and G's back in those days. E's and G's were A's and B's back in those days. And I wanted to be like them. 1.12.38.3 SL: I'm gonna pause this for a short bathroom break. 1.12.42.4 CJ: OK. 1.12.43.7 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn1.jpg 2852985069c9ac6d715d8fd4f660f780 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn2.jpg 4585cbfb95dc9efec206ae2ec8259714 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn3.jpg 52fa3734578e50c38deb5820b27b0c6e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn4.jpg e0869190ff5b1a410e4d1b53f955738f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn5.jpg 70021af58444914d31ae78e1d670eba9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn6.jpg 3c7ab0df5a469de3db3b064530f06006 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn7.jpg 191e53180398756da1494131d9f954c0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn8.jpg 4f43268eea634bb5dfce042a762ab68a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn9.jpg 7234214aa1278808af3ae084972c5571 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn10.jpg a93a199cd4bd4bd401b3e3652768ccfc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn11.jpg d6ecbe2c0b486212277ea67fa178b849 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn13.jpg 129d70fcdf6b4adc98537df2f33df181 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesBooklet.pdf 72194e7be99a755c4acfb98efd1e5700 PDF Text Text ��I I I ��- a ��0 _, 5 J i1j ~~~Jl-1 J . +~.a ,.s· 1,.~ ~~ 4 ~· u~1.i: 0" \!J .".:zr .... J c a a: '* ,. :t ~ �- ��I I II - J= a iiiiiiii..-: . �. "'!s " ~ . }· o,::! ~1i .t 4 ' ,. -! .--. -fi 4. l ·c.., -! ~. -1 .!t :0: -~Q. ~ l' Yt -a:l j ! .'" : . • 3 ~ '"'Bc1 ~ .. s0 ~ "'< G\ &. 0 ~ "i!· ~ i It ., 4. 3€ -! 1. • .4 8 -C: .s .!:~Gf1= ;a ~ §, d_ a! J.{ fl • ~ ~ ·~ -o .I • t-- \:. a +- c=t-d1 :1. :..: i t..! a.,• 4 a.~ E: ~~4coil·~ 11-t ~ � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2701/JonesCarolyn_[compressed].mp3 89d59bb7277a0607bc21b4355edb1386 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Carolyn Ann Johnson Jones Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Carolyn Ann Johnson Jones Interviewer: Sarah Lavender Date: 11 June 2008 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 1:37:02 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11 June 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carolyn Ann Johnson Jones; Sarah Lavender; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JonesCarolyn https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2700/FranklinMichael_[compressed].mp3 e3d46b7a0222e07936284d868bd3daf1 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2700/FranklinMichael.pdf 73d08e283bf3c4641a5a3853b8e3a988 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Franklin, Michael Interviewer: Brian Clark Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is April 14, 2008. My name is Brian Clark. I am interviewing Michael A. Franklin whose current address is 2301 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest in Roanoke. He grew up in the neighborhood of Southwest and West End. This is for the Roanoke Public Library's Neighborhood Oral History Initiative. BC: Mr. Franklin, you were just telling me you are 55 years old, lived in Roanoke all your life except for – Where'd you go to school. MF: That's correct. I went to school here in the city of Roanoke. I started at Loudon Elementary School which no longer exists on Loudon Avenue in Northwest Roanoke City. Its Loudon Park right now. Our other elementary school was – in the 3rd grade, I went 2 years to Loudon, and in the 3rd grade, I went to Lincoln Terrace which was a new school at the time. I went there for 1 year. That was the first year the Hurt Park Elementary School was built. There were too many students and not enough class space, that's why I bussed to Lincoln Terrace and in the 4th grade and 5th grade, I came back to Hurt Park for 2 years and then I went to Harrison Elementary School for 1 year in the 6th grade and that was my segregated education. The schools were segregated during that time. That was the first 6 years of my public school education. BC: That was up until '54. Is that correct? MF: '64 or '65. BC: So you were in segregated schooling until '64 or '65? MF: And in 19..., in the 7th grade, we went to integrated schools, Robert E. Lee Junior High School. That's where the Poff Federal building is right now and to give you some kind of indication and there were no school buses. We walked to school from this area, this neighborhood here down to Lee Junior. BC: That's probably about a mile and a half? MF: A mile and a half, give or take. BC: Wow. Did you attend high school? MF: Yes, I attended high school at Jefferson Senior down – Its the Jefferson Center now. And when I was in the 9th grade at Robert E. Lee Junior High School, I was fortunate enough to play basketball for the Junior Varsity and Varsity team in 1968/69. BC: What position did you play? MF: I played center. BC: Did ya? MF: Yes. BC: I was trying to guess. I get those questions too. You're rather tall. MF: It was an experience going from a segregated school to an integrated school and the challenges of the day, you know. It was a balance. Just to understand about the transition and the change and just dealing with it and by being a part of a successful basketball program helped us really achieve. I guess my mother really played a major role in shaping my life plus my siblings. I guess I'll speak for my siblings 'cause a lot of them were not as popular as I was as far as playing basketball. I gained a lot of notoriety and it opened a lot of doors for different opportunities. And being successful and humble with it. BC: With that basketball team, when you played, was that an integrated team? MF: In the 6th grade, the Salvation Army had the first integrated basketball, satellite basketball team here in the Roanoke Valley. We had 5 black players and 5 white players and we played at the Salvation Army on Salem Avenue and that was the first team, to my knowledge, that had actual teams here in the City of Roanoke and we played the games at Woodrow Wilson. This was, golly, 196-, I was 12 at the �time, 12/13 at the time. BC: And you were on that team? MF: Yeah, I was on that team. BC: What was that experience like? Was that your first experience with segregation, I mean, desegregation? MF: Integration – The Salvation Army opened up the – It was called the Boy's Club and boys and girls went and they opened the doors up to the kids in the community and we just went in and started playing and participating and I guess the rest is history. You notice it, but once you take a part, once you are being a part of it, you just accept and move forward right on with it. BC: What was the most, maybe, noticeable, or the most prominent memory that stands out in your mind that first day going into school and it was integrated? MF: Oh God. (Laughing) I guess to look back, I can't really remember the first day but I guess what you remember are occasions and situations where you are apart and then people notice the change – if you are the only black person, people notice you being the only black person. Or if you're the only white person with the blacks, then people notice and then it kinda stood out and then kinda embraced it. We're all part of the team. It was fun, a lot of fun. It was a challenge as you look back at it. A lot of fond memories. BC: Like what? Any that stand out right now? MF: Oh God. (Both Laughing) BC: Just a couple. (Laughing) MF: I guess the – going places like being with Halifax with the Confederate flags and dealing with Confederate flag issues of the time. And guys wanted to go in the stands and take the flag. It would be like the whole stands would be all white students and there was a Confederate flag in the middle of 'em and a couple of guys on the team wanted to go up in the stands and take the flag. (Both laughing) We said, “Naw, man, we gotta play a game. We can't take no flag”. (Both Laughing) - and keeping people under control and sticking with the mission at hand versus being distracted. There were a lot of distractions and sticking to the task and achieving your goals. Those are fond memories as I look back at it. To look past distractions and reap the benefits of, hey, the prize is not there, the prize is here. And its keeping your eye on the prize and being successful and kinda like laughing all the way to the bank in the process. You know, if you say, and then we'd think, easy money. (Laughing) As I look back, the only jewelry that I wear is jewelry that's been given to me for playing basketball and I got it at every level. From high school to college to playing international basketball. I've been fortunate to be one person's trash and another person's treasure. And I say that right there. In 1971, when I graduated from high school, I was the best basketball player in the state of Virginia. 0.08.17.4 BC: No kidding. MF: And one of the best basketball players in the country. And to not be good enough for certain schools until 2 years later and my mother said, “If you weren't good enough in '71 you're not good enough in '73. So the University of Cincinnati gave you an opportunity to get an education and we are a family of our word. Just because you have a basketball ability, you want to transfer it back to Blacksburg – Naw, you're staying in Cincinnati 'cause they gave you a chance to get an education. Then that's where you're going to stay and you have no say-so in the matter.” (Interviewer laughing) And that's pretty much how it went. BC: I was going to ask how'd you feel about that. MF: Well, I wanted to transfer back but yet when it was brought to my attention about how things was and how things are and someone gives you a chance to get an education and it don't come cheap and today – I didn't pay anything and to be in an out-of-state University of Cincinnati in 1975, from '71 to '75 would've cost about $60,000 being an out-of-state student. That same education today would cost about $140,000 for 4 years and to put a value on that – so anytime today when I have to pay money for �something, I say deduct it from that $135,000 education that you got on your basketball ability. And to always put a value on the money you didn't pay. You still deduct it and that way, the education didn't come cheap. You're still putting a value on it, the knowledge you have, for a better life. And to try and get kids to understand about the standards of learning, 'cause I have a lot of ability, a lot of stories to share with kids for opportunities and to pick kids who want a better life, you can tell 'em how to get it. Kids who don't want a better life, you tell 'em, “If you want a better life, you can go over here and get it right here. You ain't got to mess this person's life up in the process. You can walk right over there and get – If you want a terrible life, you can go right over there and get it. You ain't got to take 10 people with ya.” “What you mean by that?” I say, “What you're doing is you're influencing this person who is easily influenced.” And its coaching – They asked me to coach basketball at Patrick Henry High School for one season in 1984/85. It lasted for 16 years. (Interviewer laughing) Two state championships. We were the first team, Coach Dean took 2 teams to Hawaii and I was the assistant coach. But he had – One thing people say is how you handle people. No, you don't handle people, you deal with people. 'Cause you handle animals, Red Auerbach with the Boston Celtics, he put it in perspective. He is one of the coaches that talked about handling people and dealing with people. You handle animals and you deal with people. If I am incarcerated, I'm being handled. If I'm in jail, I'm being handled. But right now, we are dealing with each other and you have a choice in the state of Virginia and I took the state flag, dealing with kids, and we're trying to work on the Standards of Learning. We start with the flag. What do it mean? Nobody really knows. The simple solution I came up with was just stay and write and blue or wrong and red on the ground (??) And you got a choice. We fly this flag over our state and a lot of people that I work with with the Department of Juvenile Justice call me stupid for saying it and trying to put it into practice. This is a challenge that I see 'cause if I sit down with a kid one-on-one and I ask, “How you wanna live? Just think about it. Show me that emblem.” I say, “How you want it? Right standing or wrong on the ground. We fly this flag over our state”. And everybody looked at it and have no idea what it means. Its just something blue hanging in the air, versus, really, everything dealing with the state have that emblem on it. And so as we teach our kids to really look at it and take it seriously during the educational process, we send a stronger message – When you do wrong, there are consequences associated with it. When you do right, there's reward associated with it. Sometimes, the reward is not as great as you might expect but it takes time. Its the reward. And to just share the ups and downs, the positive and negative experiences. Sometimes the negative experiences, are some of the greatest experiences you'll ever have because, hey, it can't get no worse than this. It can only get better. And I always know what the worst is that could happen to me and move forward than to not know – I'd rather lose first – that first season in the integrated team, we beat the first game and lost all the rest of 'em. (Both laughing) 0.13.26.5 BC: Definitely likes to get switched don't it? (??) (Both laughing) MF: I guess, to look back at it, it was a humbling experience because we thought we were world beaters – I think we scored like 12 points and the team that we played against, they scored like 6 and the other team just beat our brains out. They were so much more – We were like 12 years old and teams have been playing for like 3 or 4 years against first year players. No matter how big you are, if you don't have the skills, you're not going to excel and... 0.14.06.3 BC: That's funny. (Both Laughing) MF: Its heart-warming. I got so many heart-warming experiences with that basketball. And I had an experience once during segregation. It was challenging because it was a guy that I went to Junior High School with that was in another neighborhood and I was like an 8th grader playing on the 9th grade team in one of the counties. And the county had a reputation for being kind of not racially friendly to black people. And so, it was two black guys on the team and we went to this county to play this game and some of the things that were said wasn't really from the people from the county. The one white guy �that was saying all the stuff, I recognized him from my Junior High School and what I did, I was just looking. I just turned and looked at him. Make eye contact. Look him square in the eye. Just look at ya. You just stare people down. And the next thing you know, they were changed. And then after it was over with, I would see him and I would walk up to him face-to-face and I said, “Now, could you repeat that?”. And to this day, nobody ever has. To say it one way versus saying it another. Sometimes, I call it false courage to live and deal with situations – If you put God first in everything you do, its a reward for you to be fearing only of God then you live a better life. I'm a pretty big guy, you know. I ain't never been injured, no broken bones. I played basketball at the University of Cincinnati and to be fortunate enough to – I had football equipment at home but I had never played in an organized football game in my life. (Interviewer laughing) And when I finished playing basketball in 1975, it was 4 pro football teams that wanted me to seriously consider playing football and the Dallas Cowboys was one of them and Gil Grant wrote me, he typed me a letter and hand-wrote me a letter and wanted me to seriously consider playing professional football – (Laughing) – by the way I played basketball. I never really was a big Dallas fan and at the time, I always thought I could play professional basketball. (Phone ringing) BC: Mr. Franklin, this has, I am really excited to hear this perspective that you've acquired over the years and I'd like to step back a little bit and look at MF: (on phone) BC: I'd like to just take a step back and just kinda go through some of your childhood experiences and what helped create that mentality and philosophy that you have by now. MF: I think mainly my family – To grow up in a neighborhood where we grew up in, we were poor, I was poor and never really knew or realized I was poor until I look back on it. Yet, we utilize being poor to not be wasteful. I guess by being conscious of (Phone ringing) (Talking on phone) BC: Are you referring to the neighborhood in Southwest? MF: Excuse me? Oh yeah, right where Prairie Park is, that's where... BC: What was the address, do you remember? Or what road it was? MF: My grandmother lived at 24 12th Street and I lived at 34 12th Street Southwest, right now where Prairie Park, where the basketball court is – They put the basketball court when they designed the park where I used to live at. BC: Oh, you're kidding. OK. MF: That's why the court is in that part. That's where I grew up at. BC: OK MF: In Prairie Park. BC: And when were you born? MF: 1952. I was born on 11th Street. The house was on 11th Street but I was born in Old Burrel Hospital. BC: OK. And you mentioned your mother. Was it just your mother? MF: My father died when I was 12 and my mother raised 6 kids, Miss Lorraine Franklin. She put all of us through college except for 1. My older brother did not want to go. After Jefferson, he said he was tired of wrecking his brain. (Both laughing) He always has worked but all my other siblings went to college and graduated. BC: And your mom's name was? MF: Lorraine. BC: What was your dad's name? MF: Nathaniel C. Franklin BC: And you're one of six, huh? MF: I was born right in the middle. I grew taller than everyone else. (Interviewer Laughing) BC: I bet they loved that. MF: Oh, yeah. Right down here at Graybar, I don't know if you know where Graybar is. Do you �know where Libby is on the corner? BC: Mm mm. Yeah, 12th and Salem. MF: Graybar is right across the street from Libby. And right down behind Graybar is where I'm talking about. We used to play football in the back of Graybar because they had a lot more room in the back of the building and – We called it Graybar Stadium. (Laughing) BC: That was the neighborhood? MF: That's what the name of the building was. BC: What were you playing with...? MF: Just neighborhood kids. BC: OK. Were there a lot of kids out back then? MF: Oh yeah, the whole neighborhood. I mean, it was like different streets and all the kids get together and each person played a position. 0.20.31.5 BC: What was your house like? MF: It was small. My 3 brothers, we all three guys were in the same room. My sister stayed with my grandmother. So we had pretty much the upstairs and then like 3 beds in a room and all the guys in the same room. Your parents had their room. The living room was downstairs. It was compact but you had a chance to grow and really appreciate – In order to appreciate I guess the lives we have today, we had to go through the hard times of yesterday to appreciate the opportunities. Mainly, the opportunities were very limited as far as plentiful on one hand but as you look at the big picture, limited as far as getting - things that we throw away today, yesterday we used to where there wasn't nothing left. You used it because that's the way it was and the way - If you wanted something, you looked at it from a different perspective versus throwing it in the trashcan, “Naw, we can get some use out of that.” BC: Can you give me a couple of examples of this? MF: Well, a pair of shoes with holes in 'em. You know, like, you'd put some cardboard in it or you put something in it until your parents could get some, could make it around to it or they might get an older shoe and take it and cut it and work with it and then put it inside the shoe to where you got next to your feet. Instead of putting in cardboard, you might have gotten a piece of leather which served better, I mean, and then the shoe wearing out versus put your feet on the ground, where some people are walking around barefooted. We had one pair of shoes in the neighborhood – You really didn't notice it because people walking around barefoot all the time in the summertime. Some of 'em probably didn't have shoes. We were always fortunate enough to have shoes. Always fortunate enough to have clothes. I can never recall going hungry. It was always food. BC: Even with 6 of you. MF: There were 6 of us. There was always food and my sister was telling me yesterday how mom would get a 50 pound bag of potatoes, 25 pounds of flour and so many pounds of sugar and the different ingredients and made food from scratch. Used to make bread. There was a bakery at 5th Street, the Kroger Bakery and Merita Bakery and my mom's bread – people would come through the neighborhood, “Miss Franklin, I want some of that bread”, just 'cause she cooked it all the time, I guess she got good at it and I know, this was back, I'm talking back in the '50s and '60s. So I asked her to make some bread in the '80s and '90s and she tried to make some, must've forgot the recipe. (Both laughing) But times change when you really look back at the food, how the food was prepared, how much healthier – I mean as far as being sick, if you has asthma, you gotta go out there and take something this time of year right here with your nose running and allergies and it was stay in the house or put up with it or deal with it. Get a rag or something and blow his nose with it and keep on going. And see the kids being adventurous, we used to always just want to go out. We'd go out and play in the river. 0.24.18.2 BC: How far did you roam in that? You said you lived here locally at 12th Street but how far were you �able to roam? MF: On bicycles, we went to North Campup (??) in Salem out to Carvins Cove. BC: That's a long way. MF: That's a long way on bicycles. I can recall going to Carvins Cove on a bicycle, up Williamson Road, up there at Brookside there, up on a bicycle going all the way up to Hollins, up Reservoir Road going to the Cove. Got a flat tire and rode it right back on a flat tire 'cause there was a thumb tack in my tire and I said I just got to ride it 'cause I'm not going to walk. (Laughing) It was just so many experiences. I guess being adventurous and I guess not getting seriously injured, not getting seriously being safe, always thinking safety enough to where – there was always a level of safety in everything – I guess by being – parents working for the railroad played an important part on safety, sports safety, just thinking safety first. And getting people around you to think the same way. How safe is it? As a basketball official now, if players get rough, stop it. 'Cause if the play got too rough versus stopping – cause and call an inadvertent whistle and then give the ball to somebody and then warn the players about, “Hey, the play is getting too rough”. That way, you maintain a level of safety and control versus “Let 'em play”, Naw, the kids are learning – I apply the same home training that I got to how I deal with people's kids – Like you and I right now, how we're dealing with each other. There's a level of respect and appreciation versus whatever. 0.26.24.9 BC: You mentioned that safety aspect probably came from your folks working for the railroad. Were they both working for the railroad most of their lives? MF: My father retired – My grandfather retired from the railroad. My uncle retired from the railroad and my father retired from the railroad and... BC: Wow. Did your mom work for the railroad? MF: My mom worked as a lady that cleans up houses and then she got on as a nurse's assistant at the Veterans Hospital in Salem and she retired from there after I think 29 years. They call her “Momma Franklin”. (Interviewer Laughing) She worked with all the patients who really respected her opinion and they called her Momma Franklin. She is a good lady. BC: I bet. MF: She had a reputation that supersedes mine. (Both laughing) BC: Well you mentioned the food too in relation to your mom. Did you guys have a garden or anything? MF: We had a garden. We had several gardens, I guess right over here on Norfolk Southern's property. Right now the tracks have expanded to where the garden used to be. We had a garden on the right-ofway and we went up there one summer and planted food. We came back the next summer and they had cut everything away. (Laughing) It was just part of the land for putting the new tracks in and expand it wider. It was progress. That's just the way it was. We were just using the dirt. BC: Did you have a garden after that anywhere? MF: Oh yeah, my mother had one. She always had a garden around the house and even today, I still grow tomatoes. BC: I was going to ask if you had to help out with that. MF: Oh yeah. Even right now I enjoy just gardening and some of the vocational classes I'm learning in school like sheet metal, wood-working – some of the objects, furniture I made in high school, I still have myself. BC: Wow. Good quality stuff. MF: Knowing what type wood that was good wood and valuable and then just making it right, having to put a project together to make a grade. You know, just pick something you like and then just make it, pass the time and learn something in the process. BC: You mentioned that you were going to colleges. What did you end up majoring in. MF: Urban Affairs and Child Psychology. �BC: So coming out of building furniture to Urban Affairs and Child Psychology. How did that transition occur? MF: Its just something I felt, well, I've always thought about John Kennedy's words. You know what those words are don't ya? BC: Uh uh. MF: “Ask not what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country” or your community. I feel that I can best serve my community by reaching back and doing what I done and look at it and say, “Hey, man, you did your best” - It was great, feeling good about it. Just moving on BC: That's excellent. MF: That's pretty much – people helped me – even right now, 55 years old, from kindergarten, and Jerusalem Baptist Church and the first year of school, I had to wait out of school a whole year 'cause my birthday coming in November so I had to wait until I was 7 to start the 1st grade so that first year, they put in kindergarten and some of the same guys I went to kindergarten with I still know today. We went all the way through school together. (Interviewer laughing) BC: If I say “Roanoke, Southwest”, the neighborhood you grew up in, what are the couple of images or thoughts that first come to mind? Anything in particular? MF: People. BC: How so? MF: The people made the, just made it. Each character - as I do – each person had their own individual character and the characters were just, some you can't describe. Its something that its difficult to describe on one hand but on another hand, living it, you think about people and if you lived it – we'd say like, “Do you remember this person or that person?” and they say, “Yeah, I remember that person.” and you describe 'em and they be talking about different characteristics about the person versus the person in the room who has no idea who you're talking about. They can't imagine and you try to paint a picture for the person and – some people were alcoholics and we never knew alcoholics. It was people that were homosexuals, like, everybody just dealt with 'em, they were just who they were – And this person this way and you gave 'em names and whatever, every kind of character in the neighborhood that exist today where people just dealt with 'em different and say. “That's the way they are”. Everybody pretty much just did their thing and left people alone unless people sometimes overstep boundaries. But for the most part, everybody left each alone and did their thing. It was kinda confined on one hand because you couldn't go to movie theaters. At one time, you couldn't go and the next time you could go to any one you want to. It just seemed like overnight, like a Burger King on Melrose Avenue. There was a Kenny's across the street. You couldn't go buy a hamburger and then one day you couldn't buy a hamburger and the next day, they were glad to have your business. (Laughing) It just seemed like during the transition overnight and – kids embracing other kids as we grew closer together. Some of the same people that I've met, black and white, I still have today as friends. And to me, its fun. Its a very enjoyable – Its a humbling experience to me, very humbling because I could've very easily been incarcerated if not for people saying the right thing, “If you do this” or “If you do that”. “If you do the wrong thing you're going to jail. If you do the right thing, you're going to college”. Sometimes, you'd be right on the verge of doing the wrong thing (both laughing). And you think just for a second, you say, “Hey, this is gonna lead me here. This is gonna lead me there.” In making that choice and bail him out versus staying and even today, I say, “Oh man, I've got too many people depending on me”. And realizing who put food on the table and where the food come from on the table and not realize it. And some of the kids whose parents gave 'em everything as a kid growing up. I look at 'em today and the old saying comes into play, “Give me a fish and I'll feed you for a day, Teach me to fish, I'll feed you for a lifetime”. And I feel like I've been taught to fish for a lifetime and I try to teach people around me, people that I want to associate with to feed yourself for a lifetime instead of just reaching out for your next meal, not knowing where its coming from. And to me, that's something that has been instilled in me just by having the best of both worlds. I had the best �of the segregated world and I'm living the best of the integrated world. (Laughing) 0.35.03.6 BC: Its an amazing perspective. MF: I live a good life. I'm a NASCAR fan. I learned about NASCAR growing up. Did you ever hear of Wardell Scott? (??) Not really knowing who he was – I remember Fireball Roberts – He got killed at Daytona. I don't know if you know anything about that. This guy – I mean what happened, the guy wrecked and that always burned my interest in that sport. 0.35.42.7 BC: What other types of interests did you have, like, as you were growing up with your family? 'cause it seems like you have the sports and NASCAR but were there other things that you were interested in when you were growing up? MF: Oh yeah, everything we ever wanted, our parents made a way for us to get it. Each kid – If you wanted – I don't know how they done it. (Both laughing) IF it was within reason, no dream was impossible but to set realistic goals, each kid set realistic goals and to have realistic goals and to have a support base to help you achieve the goals versus – Education – My family always put a strong emphasis on education. Constantly educate yourself and you don't need no big degree hanging on the wall. Educate yourself and use your education to make the world better. I guess my parents – Its been instilled in my siblings and myself to have an opportunity to change the world for the better is an opportunity that a lot of people don't have. An opportunity that a lot of people do have but don't realize it. And to have that opportunity and realize it, its a power. Its a power that shouldn't be taken for granted. And a lot of times, people take my power, I have that power, but I won't show that power and they'll take that power I have for granted and when that power is applied, I tell them how and why I applied that power the way I applied it just to see how abusive they were gonna be, thinkin' that they had more power. If I'm in total control and I know I'm in total control, I'm gonna give you all the rope you need. If you want to hang yourself then that's just the way – to me that's the way success operates and I think that's something that I reach back, I look back on my family have instilled in me to be a quality person. The quality of the character and just every situation was always a learning situation whether it was fun. I'll tell you another little example. My father, my brothers and I were kids, right, and I got rewarded for being wrong. My father told my two brothers and I – We was in a car – Some white kids were playing a game, they were playing games and my father was visiting this white gentleman, I have no idea who the gentleman was, or even who the kids was. But it was Orange Avenue in Northwest, that's when the whole Northwest area was all white, an all white neighborhood. And this was like in the '60s. I'd say '64/'65, it might've been '63 and we had the windows rolled down. The kids came to the car and tried us to get us out the car to play with 'em. We wouldn't get out of the car. We stayed in the car. We said, “Naw, we can't get out the car”. They wanted to know why. We said, “No, we can't get out the car”. My dad told us not to get out of the car. So they went and played some more and came back again, begged us to get out the car and play. We wouldn't get out of the car. So the third time they came back, I got out the car and started playing with 'em. They played a game with some colors. They had some crayons. They played a game with some crayons. We sat on the porch and played. I must've played with 'em for a minute. I went back to my other brothers and they still wouldn't get out of the car. (Interviewer laughing) And so I played with 'em, just having a good time playing the game and so my father came back and he chastised my brothers for not getting out of the car and playing. He originally told us, “Don't get out the car”. And so by getting out of the car and playing, I heard him telling my mother that I got out of the car. I wasn't in the room but he told her that Bobby and Ned (??) wouldn't get out the car. He was mad with them for not getting out of the car but happy with me. See on one hand, I was kinda rewarded for doing wrong. That was an example of a situation of many situations that occurred – just sit and think about 'em – and by taking that step, I have gone places and been places in my life. “I can't believe you done that”. I say, “Well, I did.” (Interviewer laughing) I've been to the Daytona 500 just 'cause I wanted to do it. To have a chance to �go up in there and sit and know exactly what's going on and for – people ask you questions and you answer questions and, say, you ask me a question, I answer your question and you've asked a question and I've given you my answer and see how much you know about what you asking me. I caught a player in basketball going from offense to defense and that's how that game is played. The quicker you can play offense and defense, the transition, the more successful you are. And the quicker you understand how to get into it, you can apply the same thing to how you live and you gonna always be sharp and on the edge of what's going on. To me, that just what – I chose to live in the Roanoke Valley. The Roanoke Valley really didn't choose me. But I ain't realize the potential 'cause I've lived here all my life, with the exception of going to the University of Cincinnati, playing basketball in Europe and South America and places like that. Roanoke has always been my home. BC: What has made you stay? MF: I made a pledge I would never live anywhere – after living in Cincinnati for 4 years, I made one pledge, I would never live nowhere north of Roanoke. That's a pledge I made to myself. BC: What was the difference? MF: The weather. BC: Oh, OK. 0.42.19.8 MF: The weather. I had friends and the weather is just so brutal on a person's body and have four seasons. We get all four seasons in the mountains. We get all four seasons. To really appreciate what we have in Roanoke, you have to see the rest of the world and I done been a lot of places in the world outside of the United States. I've been to South America. I done been to Europe, Scandinavia. I done been to the South Pacific all dealing with basketball. Basketball gave me all those opportunities. To take those opportunities to appreciate where you come from and what you have, to me, to be able to maintain it and help shape it to where its always a positive even in a negative situation. Even with law enforcement being what it is to be critical of law enforcement that no doubt exists. I say, “Naw, I got to try to help law enforcement better understand as a citizen, right is right. You got to be able to step back sometimes and hear all the stories to put all the facts into a report versus being a judge. “I'm not going to put this in there”, and a person is lying to you and law enforcement gets lied to a lot in the AfroAmerican community. 'Cause sometimes a woman can be deceitful if she's intelligent. If she can use the law to where the law put other women in danger. I guess I say that because it doesn't really affect you until it happens to you. And see like, I'm a single black man, 55 years old. I retired from the City of Roanoke after 26 years of service in the Juvenile Incarceration Prevention. But if I'm dealing with a crazy lady that say, “He the man, I'm going for him. I don't know what it takes to get him.” She can make herself a victim and if she do things the right way then – I could even fall prey to her, always being downtown in the system or I can say, “Hey, use your education. Trust in the spirit and let the chips fall where they may”. I understand about the justice system the way I do and being patient the way I do. I was faced with a situation like that and – understanding the jurisdictions like Roanoke, Salem – Some of the stuff people get away with in Roanoke, they don't get away with in Salem or Roanoke County 'cause the law is dealt with different. Sometimes, people don't realize who break the law are a little wrong, what jurisdictions means. And they cross them jurisdictions and get picked up and then its a whole different ball game. Its a whole different case. And to know that and to learn that, my parents always told me about the law. As kids growing up, they told me, “If you get in trouble with the same friends you get in trouble with, don't call me, you call them. Don't even pick up – Don't waste your money or time or other people's time calling me”. And knowing that right there, and knowing that, uh uh. Some are a right of passage, uh uh. Naw, that's a curse. 0.46.02.3 BC: Was this philosophy that your parents raised you with, was that common in the neighborhood or was that unusual? MF: I think it was common with us. I can't speak for – It might've been unusual – for the most part it �was common with most families because if someone saw me doing something wrong 3 or 4 blocks away or streets away, parent would call and they'd something to me and they'd call. They'd say, “Boy, I talked to you mom. You go home right now.” (Interviewer laughing) They'd know who I was. They used to call me one of those bad-ass Franklin boys. (Both laughing) I look at the pictures, I'm talking I couldn't been more than 8 or 9 years old. But shirt-tails be out – I just looked at myself – I looked like I was getting ready to get it. We was less than 10 years old just looking for something to get into. People used to have fruit trees and stuff like that. We'd be in the fruit trees, the apple trees – get hungry – cherries in season, apricots in season – whatever was in season. You always went in people's fruit trees. (Both laughing) In the day, there were fruit trees all over the neighborhood. A lot of times, people would say, “Take the fruit but leave the tree”. (Both laughing) As you look back it, I think about the “Little Rascals”, some of the same stuff, getting like a skate you roll with and then make a scooter out of it, had it where you could turn it. Lean one way and whichever way you lean on it, that's the way it would go. Putting a bicycle together from scrap parts, you know, piecing one together. Walking through the neighborhood finding this or finding that. 0.48.00.3 BC: What'd you guys do in the evening? You know, after school. MF: During the World Series would come on in the afternoon and we used to always, somebody would take – bring a radio to school and we had shop class in the Fall and they would listen – the World Series came on like 2 o'clock and they used to let us put it on the radio in the shop class. And then at night, once the sun went down, you could pick up a clear channel stations from up and down the East Coast. It was KMOX – I still do that today. I listen to radio stations from different – like Detroit, Cleveland. That's how they listened to me here in Roanoke when I played basketball in Cincinnati. BC: Your folks here? They could listen to you on the radio? MF: At night on WCKY. BC: No kidding. MF: A clear channel station at 50,000 watt. The games came on at night, the could hear me. People used to always say they could hear the games. BC: Now did a lot of people gather around for that or was it more individualized per family? Not necessarily for your games but just in general. MF: I can recall when Muhammad Ali knocked out Sonny Liston and everybody said that guy, he had a big mouth and all and he knocked out Sonny Liston to say “I'm the greatest”. We used to listen to different station - called Randy, it used to come out of Tennessee and he used to play like all the latest music out of Memphis. You could pick up all the different stations all over, up and down the East Coast at night. Just scan the channels. Baseball was plentiful, different state teams. And radio was entertainment at night. If it came on at night, you could pick it up. The radio was kinda like the big time entertainment because you used your imagination. And what I do even today, I go to baseball games and take the radio with me and listen to the announcer. Any sporting event, if I get a chance – even racing, I'll take MRN and PRN. The MRN do a better job of describing the game, the race to a blind person and you pick up on it. People who watch it for the first time with me they say, “The guys still talking but the TV's gone to a commercial”. I'm listening to the radio and they're giving me a more detailed look – I can see what's going on here but with the radio, they're giving me more details as far as describing to a blind person. That right there has, to me, enhanced my entertainment – just be more entertaining – knowing what's going on – then helping kids that I work with better understand – this is why I do it this way 'cause I get double or triple the information. They say, “How you know that? How you know this?” (Both laughing) I got a guy telling me in one ear what just happened. A lot of times, and this is getting ready to happen now, “How'd you know that was getting ready to happen?” “A guy just told me.” “Who told you?” I tell you something else I'll never try to do, something that was never done to me as a kid. Every time I was critical or punished, I was given a reason for it. I would never punish – sometimes I felt like I was punished for no reason. People will call, they weren't �sure who done it. They say, “Michael did it.” They said, “Did you do it?”. I said, “No I didn't do it.”. “This was something like you would've done. You're going to get the consequences for it anyway.” As a kid growing up, I never did get a whipping. Know what I got? Killings. My parents would kill me and bring me back to life just so they could kill me again and never put a scratch on me. I got some killings as a kid growing up. You know something? As kids growing up, I deserved every one of them. I look back it and I think I'm a better person today by some of those so-called killings. My parents used to tell me, “I brought you in this world and I will take you out.”. You know something? They meant it. I remember a couple of times, I heard my father talk about his mamma gave him a whipping one time and he played dead. So you know what I did? I did the same thing. (Both laughing) 0.53.01.8 BC: Did it work? MF: It worked. If you hear something that somebody done that was successful – It worked for them, it might for me. That's the way its been the whole time, winning State Championships, the players – growing up – that's something that brought our community together in 1969 and 1970, the blacks and the whites together. 'Cause we played – Jefferson had – the majority of the team was African American. But it was white players on the team, everybody's rallying around the team. We won the State Championship by one point. BC: Wow. MF: There was one second to go in the game, the other team had two free throws and the score was tied, 59-59. Jefferson, the team I was playing for, won the game without going into overtime by one point. And the guy on the other team missed both free throws. The second free throw hit the front of the rim and bounced straight back to him. My teammate took the shooter and the shooter fouled my teammate and he went down and had a 1 and 1 and sunk the front end of a 1 and 1 and we were ahead 60 to 59. That's the only time in the whole ballgame we was ahead. BC: That's the one that matters. MF: That's the one that mattered. Just to be a part of that right there and the year before we lost in the State Championship and after the game, the writer asked me what was I thinking. I said, “We're gonna come back next year and win. By coming back next year and winning the way we won... It made for a fantastic story and people say, “Oh, that didn't happen.”. I say I lived it so I know and for that to be one part of, one part of many stories as far as going to PH for one year and then staying there 16 years and help them win their two basketball championships and then talking to the kids through it and then just talking to them about their mindset and having been there before. I think you've heard of Alonzo Morning? BC: Mm mm. MF: Well his team with PH, kids from the neighborhood, coaching them and then telling them how to go about playing against them. Its a level of toughness, just neighborhood toughness, Southwest, the West End have always had a level of guys tough and fight, toughness to fight. Somebody say something or look at you wrong, they start fighting. As their reputation changed, as times changed and to be tough, because people would run rush out on you. Them guys from the West End and the guys from Northwest, only a few guys could come to Southwest 'cause Southwest had all the good-looking girls. And the guys from Northwest would always want to come up here and they would chase 'em back across 10th Street bridge. (Laughing) BC: This is when you were growing up? MF: This is when I was growing up. I was young but see, you had one high school. All the black students went to one high school so that meant you would have little rivals from Northeast, Northwest and Southwest. BC: From all over the city? MF: Yeah, from all over the city. Southwest was like a little small pocket. We might've had just 200 or 300 kids and then you figure Northwest might've had a thousand and then you figure Northeast �might've had another 500. So you figure Addison might've had like 12, 14, 1500 students. That means everybody had their own little groups and all. Looking back and stuff at the pictures. Everybody was real sharp and that's just the way it was. A guy said, “That girl from Southwest, naw, you can't bother her, man. She's from Southwest.” (Both laughing) That's just the way it was. But now, like the guys from PH and Cave Springs, they date girls and don't think nothing about it. At one time, “You can't date girls from Cave Springs”. As you look back on it, it was always fun. Fun learning and just fun everything. 0.57.44.5 BC: Did you have any businesses or shops in the few blocks around your house when you were growing up, prominent in your memory? MF: They were called corner stores. Wiggins Store, Libby's Store... BC: Is this the same as the restaurants that are there now? MF: No, there's a different owner. The lady's name was Miss Libby. She was like a Syrian (??) but she was as much a part of the neighborhood of Southwest. She helped people. If you didn't have food, you wouldn't go hungry. She would extend credit. There were a lot of people in the neighborhood that would extend credit. People knew who they could turn to. Sometimes people needed somebody, instead of going to a bail/bondsman you went to some of the neighborhood people, neighborhood merchants who had a cash flow or generated a service and they would help people out. I mean, they would work with 'em. Work reasonably with people, when people would come to you for a loan. Instead of going to a commercial bank, there were people in the neighborhood that people to for banking services or legal services. People were educated but people just didn't have resources. Segregation, what it did, I feel, was made more people more centrally, people need to depend more on people for services. Once integration opened up, people went, you could go more places. So the people who would usually individual services, they were no longer needed because the bigger services were more glamorous and more converse (??) and people would say, “This is how I establish my credit and I can get more, achieve more”. And, believe me, the change was good on one part but on another part – progress helps one person and hurts somebody else. And that's just the nature of – Look at how the automobile put the horse out of business. BC: Except in rare cases. (Both laughing) MF: Its what it is. Like the communication system, like the tapes and the DVDs and then the cassettes and the IPODs, they just keep getting more and more... As a society, changes come. How much better we can service. I say, look forward to tomorrow but still hold onto a little bit of yesterday to appreciate – don't keep looking forward, take a second and look back. I guess its kinda like what the city is doing now because, several people told me I need to kinda share this information because to be fortunate enough to have experienced – very few people can say about Roanoke what I say 'cause Roanoke has been good to me. Roanoke has been great to me as far as... My mother and my father gave me life. Roanoke gave me an opportunity and to have life and opportunity and to have a true trust in God and to kinda walk behind the Lord Jesus Christ and then just – let everything else fall where it may. “Gotta choose somebody, thanks for choosing me”. (Both laughing) And be humble and grateful. To be humble and grateful because I always say, “The good Lord could've gave it a whole lot of other people and He gave it to you”. (Laughing) That's something that I'll never forget. At night, as I grow older, I guess I'm more appreciative. I feel like I got mine and about 5 other peoples. Opportunities to just – the first time I saw the Eiffel Tower in Paris. You know something? I said, “Let's go over and check it out. How much time we got?” We had a few hours. We checked it out. And to have that opportunity versus some people only see stuff like that in pictures. And to go places – I had some kids from around here and we went down to Daytona, right, with PH basketball. We rode past the Daytona Motor Speedway 5 days in a row and the guys were saying, they were saying things. I listened to 'em. I would play devil's advocate. I said, “There go the speedway over there. Y'all want to check it out?” They'd say, “Naw, that place nothing but rednecks in there and they ain't doing nothing in there but �driving around in circles.” Everyday we rode by there going different places, I listened to 'em and I said, “Whoa, wait a minute.” “Where we going?” The last day we were down there. So I took 'em in there, right, and cars were testing and – its education and everything. Its only gonna cost you a few minutes of your time to see this facility. We've been riding past it everyday and I said educate 'em, knowing. I said, “I'd be doing you all an injustice and a disservice not to take you in to show it to you.” BC: And you had already been to the race at this point, right? MF: I had been inside the track. We went inside and got – they were just amazed at how huge the facility was inside. They said, “Aww, we don't want to go in there. We don't want to go in there.” They squawked. We went in and Goody Dash (??) service cars were testing, about 155 miles per hour. They ain't never seen cars going that fast in their life. They came by and they were just in awe, just cars testing. And cars coming around the track as fast as they were coming and we stayed about a half hour. They didn't want to leave when it came time to leave. When it came time to leave, they didn't want to leave. Then we talked about it and then we took them to Bethune-Cookman College and walked around on campus and then I said, “Y'all keep your mouths closed, let me do your talking for you”. The coach wanted to give all 3 guys I had with me a scholarship and one guy that wasn't there. He would give 4 scholarships and the kids say, “Coach, how'd you do that?”. I said, “Just talking to people.” And what the coach said was, “If those guys are good enough to come down here, y'all are good enough to bring 'em down here, we figure they must be pretty good athletes”. And that's what they were considering. They seriously considered giving all 4 kids scholarships just – opportunities going places and seeing things and just being available. I guess that's what integration has done, giving kids more of an opportunity to be available and market yourself and your skills. Not that segregation didn't do it, but it was so limited because - the CIAA, I don't know if you know what that is, the Central Intercollegiate Athletic Association of the ACC. The same players that are playing in the ACC, once played in the CIAA. That was an all black conference. They got the cream of the crop of all the top, like Michael Jordans would've played in the CIAA. All the top notch players – and with Charlie Scott played for North Carolina, he was the first black player to play for North Carolina. He was a big thing. Everybody looking, you know? It was just the way he played and how he dealt with situations and how North Carolina embraced him. What he had to deal with in the ACC and as time slowly changed and evolved for the betterment of everybody. To me, it turned a negative into a positive which is always good. And some people say, “It was like this yesterday”. I say, “Well, what about tomorrow? What about right now? What can we do right now to make tomorrow more respectable and more understanding?” We might see something different. “Don't get mad with me. Put your differences on the table. It might not be such a big difference if you put it on the table.” I ain't saying nothing. How you expect someone to meet you halfway if you're not going to come and meet the person. I say, “I tell you what, I'm holding all the cards. I'm holding all the opportunities. If you refuse to meet me anyway, then, I'll give this opportunity to somebody else that I feel is deserving of it and then if I give an opportunity away, I'll tell you. This opportunity was yours but I'm giving it to somebody else because they're more appreciative.” That's the same way I got opportunities. People gave me opportunities because I was more appreciative along the way and somebody else's trash was my treasure and I reaped the benefits of being able to look at the opportunities and situations and move forward. Its what it is. 1.07.26.1 BC: I'm thinking back at some of those opportunities. You've mentioned so much here, its wonderful. From your experience, integration has played a huge role in your life here in Roanoke. That seems to have been a big change. Were there other change, you know, thinking back to maybe when you were 10 or so to now that you really noticed in the Roanoke area or in Southwest, specifically, that you've noticed? MF: As far as structures, as far as buildings go, I mean, the neighborhood is more – you don't see as much slum, as much – you might see spotty houses where the landowners not really taking care of. �But, for the most part, the slum, housing is a lot better. When you had the facilities on the back porch or kinda outside pretty much and then time has come and changed when you've got indoor plumbing. We didn't have hot water. You had to heat your hot water on the stove. From the time we moved out of Southwest in like '64 or '65, if you wanted hot water you put it on the stove. Coal or wood – you built a fire inside a stove. It's just the way it was. You banked (??) the stove. You kept the fire going and you had a little hole in the ceiling for heat to go upstairs. The house we lived in had 6 rooms and the house next door had 5 – it was like a duplex. Its amazing just to think about 'em. You had 6 on one side and 6 on another in the duplex. It was the kitchen in the bottom and the next two was 4 units down to the alley. First you would have 6, it was two 6-rooms, then two 5-rooms and then two bitters (??) with 4 on each side. It was 8 units and the last two buildings were 4 rooms. Then the other houses down the street, Boswell, a guy named Boswell was the real estate agent and I think the rent was, where I saw the receipt for the rent, it was like $34 a month. (Both laughing) To be able to go back through it and look at old receipts. What I was fortunate enough to do was to laminate a lot of the clippings and make copies of 'em just to laminate 'em. The Roanoke Times gave me a whole lot of ink when I was coming along playing basketball. When I say a whole lot of ink, I mean I got a lot of articles, but a lot of 'em I don't have, but a lot of 'em I do and believe me, I got a ton myself. And just to – I guess integration has played a role of opportunity and I guess, to realize opportunities and then the role of being a trailblazer, more or less, to be a first to do things and doing it for the betterment of everybody versus – I hadn't given it a lot of thought until I really thought about being on the first satellite basketball team. And the opportunity given by the Salvation Army and that's why I always support the kettle because of that reason. 1.11.40.9 BC: That makes sense. MF: Dropping a dollar in a kettle is a small price to pay for a bright future, ain't it? BC: You're not kidding. MF: Drop a dollar in a kettle at Christmas is a small price to pay for a bright future. I wish I could give more than I do. I never walk past a kettle and not put something in it and to still reap the benefits that I guess that a little giving is a whole lot better than not giving. BC: Yeah, it is. MF: To just be so fortunate. I think some of the older people that were - that used to sit around talking, just make comments and think about – these were older people when I was a kid. (Interviewer laughing) You ask people questions and people made like home brew and people made little remedies. Everybody had a remedy for something. They'd say, “Give him some of this. Give him some of that. Do this for him.” I used to suck my thumb as a kid, right, and they tried everything and this lady came by one day and they said, “That's the lady right there.” “Take and rub his thumb here and he'll never suck it again.” And she took my thumb and she just took her hands and just rubbed it. She said, “He'll never suck it again”. And I sucked my thumb and got real, real sick and started regurgitating and after that, broke me from that habit. (Interviewer laughing) Broke me from it. I must've been about 6 or 7 years old and I can remember the first time I tied my shoes, it seemed like one day I couldn't tie 'em and the next day – I was in kindergarten – I was tying my shoes and my mamma say, potty trained, tying your shoes and putting your underwear on right side. A whole lot of stuff versus as a kid growing up just rushing, just put the clothes on, put your shirts on backward, wrong side - couldn't wait to get out the house. As a kid growing up, especially in the summertime. To be a kid growing up in the Southwest, we were some blessed children to never – for kids around us to get cuts and broken bones and for us to never get seriously cut. I can't recall none of my siblings ever getting any broken bones. You know what I attribute that to? Drinking milk. I mean drinking milk. We always had plenty of milk. That's something that I guess with the dairy being over, the Garst Brothers Dairy. We always had plenty of milk. Even right now, I drink plenty of milk. 1.14.43.7 �BC: Its good for ya. (Both laughing) Very good for you. MF: Yes, indeed. BC: Mr. Franklin, how do you describe Southwest to people when you're talking to 'em? Just out of curiosity. MF: My home. I live in Northwest but Southwest is my home. BC: You still have that affinity too? MF: Yeah, 'cause its a whole thing about Southwest where people say, “You mess with one person in Southwest, you mess with everybody.” (Both laughing) BC: Was it like that? MF: That's pretty much how it was. BC: Is it still like that? MF: I think it's kinda died off now. But at one time, at one time – I guess by having that reputation. “Leave that guy alone, he's from Southwest.” So people would say if you jump on a guy from Southwest and they got wind of it, people in Southwest would get a bunch of people to go looking for whoever jumped on somebody from Southwest. So to describe it, I know those guys from Southwest not like that now. When they built Hurt Park Projects, a lot of people from Northeast moved to Hurt Park and then you had Hurt Park and then you had Southwest. So Hurt Park wasn't really considered Southwest. BC: That's interesting because they're so close. MF: They're so close but see they put Hurt Park Project in Southwest when they built the Civic Center and all that stuff in the Northeast. That's how Hurt Park – They took a few people out of Southwest and put 'em in Hurt Park but the majority of people came from Northeast. And so that was like, there were people up here living in poverty and would refuse to move into Hurt Park Projects because of the people that was over there from Northeast and they were so close to people in Southwest. “Uh uh, I'd rather live in poverty than live in Hurt Park”. Say I live in Hurt Park versus living in Southwest. That's just how close-knit the people, you talk about close, I mean, you get up there and mess with one person – Its kinda crazy on one hand but on another hand, that's the way it was and see I kinda got in on the tail end of it versus – by me going through integration, I went to the white schools. That's what they call 'em, the “white schools”. If I had been at Addison, it would've been more challenges more – the girls weren't as plentiful being a big time athlete versus being around every black lady in the city versus half a handful at Jefferson. It was a whole different thing and it was a lot easier to deal with as I look back at it versus you got girls competing and then doing this or doing that and then just getting caught up in it and staying focused on basketball. 1.17.52.4 BC: You were a little more isolated from the social scene. MF: Oh yeah. BC: OK MF: I wasn't – and see by not driving and not having a car and then walking to Wasena Park. We used to walk to Wasena Park and play basketball. That's the only hard court we had in the neighborhood back in the day. We spent most of the time always playing sports, baseball, whatever sport was in season, we played it. Back at Graybar, that's the only big field, local field, plus they had a great big light on the back of the building that shined out so we could go out there at night. We'd be playing out there at night. I think it would cut off at 11 o'clock at night so we had light. That's what we call Graybar Stadium. (Both laughing) BC: That was your stadium. MF: They had a church. They remodeled the church. They took the benches out of the church so we took the benches and set them along the sidelines for people, spectators for our performance. BC: Did you ever have a crowd? (Both laughing) MF: That was some fun days I'm here to tell you. �BC: Well, Mr. Franklin, we're approaching the end of our time. I just wanted to thank you very much for your time today. MF: You're very welcome. BC: I really enjoyed talking with you and, to give you an opportunity, are there any last closing thoughts that you want to offer that this may've prompted? MF: All I know is, its a lot that we have covered. I'm sure I'll probably think of just of much BC: A dozen more interviews certainly. (Laughing) MF: Its just the main thing, I don't know how things are going to turn, but I'm in the process of doing some work for like putting my life together in like a movie. They told me to write it up so I'm in the process now putting it together. If its meant to be, its meant to be. If its not meant to be, its not meant to be. And I always say one thing, “God's will is God's deal”. I'm just glad to be a part of that plan. Its been good. Like I said earlier, I feel like I've had my opportunities and maybe opportunities that were intended for somebody else but I guess if God gave it to me, they were intended for me. Be humble and grateful. I thank you very much and I'm gonna shake your hand. (Both laughing) BC: Yes sir. MF: I hope I've been of some help to you. BC: I think you have. MF: OK BC: I appreciate your time. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2700/FranklinMichael.1.JPG 3cd8ec1ab12493bfa25afc7826f81263 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Michael Franklin Subject The topic of the resource Northeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Michael Franklin Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 14 April 2008 Location: Mountain View Recreation Center Total Duration: 34:05 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 14 April 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael A. Franklin; Brian Clark; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FranklinMichael https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2699/HairstonFred_[compressed].mp3 af9ea16a83269b01cc7f9f2dc43ba23d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2699/HairstonFred.pdf c21784dbd6afe25a98f475eaca51c0cf PDF Text Text Interviewee: Fred Hairston, Jr. Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Good morning. My name is Carla Lewis and I am the Gainsboro Branch Manager. Today is April 5th, a Saturday, 2008. I am here to interview Fred Douglas Hairston, Jr. We will start our interview right now. CL: Good morning Mr. Hairston. FH: Good morning. CL: How are you? FH: I am good. CL: Good. Can you tell me where and when you were born? FH: I was born in Eden, NC. At the time, the name of the town was Wrightboro (??). The year I was born was and the month was August 6, 1923. CL: OK. And how long have you lived here in Roanoke? FH: I came to Roanoke in 1949 and, of course, you can figure that out. (Laughing) CL: Where in Northwest did you live? Neighborhood? FH: When I came to Roanoke, I lived on Gilam Avenue. CL: Gilam Avenue. Do you know the address on Gilam Avenue? FH: It was 801 Gilam. CL: 801 Gilam. Very good. Tell me about your parents, brothers, sisters. FH: OK. My father's name is the same as mine, Senior. My mother's name was Rosa Lee Hairston and what else do you want to know? CL: I wanted to know did you have any sisters or brothers or do you have sisters and brothers still living. FH: Oh yes. Six sisters and four brothers and all of them have passed except for 2 sisters that are younger than I. CL: OK, your 2 sisters that are younger than you, are they still here in Roanoke? FH: No, they're in North Carolina. CL: In North Carolina. OK. Well great. Describe your home life for us. For instance, did you live in a brick house? Did you have a garden or landscaping around your house that you had to take care of? FH: Uh huh. My father worked in cotton mills down in Eden and, in fact, I say Eden now but at that time it was Wrightboro, you know. He worked in the cotton mill and, of course, my mother she took in washings and stayed home and looked after us. We all had chores and we would get the wood in and the coal and water and whatever needed to be done. Working in the garden and all of that. At that time, times were very hard for most especially for the black people and all of us had to share in the working and providing for ourselves and we picked berries and (laughing) worked in the garden and in the orchards or whatever that we could do to help the family to survive. CL: OK. FH: But there was a lot of love in that home though, you know. We worked together and, in fact, we didn't even know we were poor but we was poorer than poor. (Laughing) CL: Did you have a brick house or did you have a large house? FH: No CL: Did you have a lot of rooms in it? FH: No, not too many rooms. We had 4 rooms. The living room was a living room and a bedroom and at that time, they had these big old couches that you can let out for beds, you know, and the main entrance, of course we had my father and mother. They stayed in the girls room. There were 6 girls that stayed in that one room. And the boys, there were 4 of us, and we stayed in the living room. �(Laughing) CL: OK. FH: We slept in the living room rather. CL: What type of activities did you participate in? When you all went to play, what did you play, what kind of games? FH: We played baseball. CL: Baseball. FH: Yeah. And we done some fishing and stuff like that. Wasn't too many activities that you could belong to at that time. Of course basketball, we didn't know anything about basketball until we went to high school, you know. CL: Alright. Lets talk about your school life. For instance, did you attend school here in Roanoke? FH: Well, yes. I got my GED at Jefferson High School. My daughter at that time, she was a Junior in College at Virginia Tech. Mm mm. CL: Now did you have to walk there or did you have a car. FH: You mean to school? CL: Mm mm. Jefferson. To get your GED. FH: Oh no, I had a car. CL: You had a car at that time. FH: And of course I was professional plasterer at that time because when I came out of the Army, I went to trade school and after coming to Roanoke and I worked for Johnny Tamsent's (??) operation and we worked commercial buildings and we worked 5 states. One weekend, I came home and was tied up working on the road and they was building the Civic Center and I went down and applied for a maintenance job at the Civic Center and they hired me as a maintenance person. When I retired from the city, I was the executive housekeeper for the City of Roanoke. 0.06.03.2 CL: Alright. Did you go on to complete any college courses? FH: Yes, I took some courses at Roanoke College and I took some, I went through executive housekeeping school and I – a lot of different certificates that I have that's where I kinda advanced my knowledge in different areas. CL: Mm mm . OK. You said your daughter attended Virginia Tech. FH: Mm mm. CL: Did she complete her education there? FH: Yes she did, not at Virginia Tech. She went to – She left Virginia Tech as a Junior and went to Minnesota, University of Minnesota and she got her degree in Minnesota and then she got her doctorate at the University of Oregon. And she was teaching at one of the colleges in Syracuse, NY. CL: And what is her name? 0:07:13:8 FH: Her name is Freddie. She don't like to be called Fred anymore. Its ______ (??) Laverne Hairston. And, of course, now she's in Michigan. 0.07.26.0 CL: OK, very good. OK. Describe your home life. For instance, did you all have radio and television, telephone or any of those? FH: Since we're talking about my daughter, can I tell you about my son next. OK. My son, he was born a month before I went in the Army. I went in the Army in March in '43. CL: And what was his name? FH: His name was Esseck (??) Hairston. And he's working at the trade in which I was trained in and so he's doing very well for himself, you know. He's an independent contractor. CL: An independent contractor. FH: Mm mm. �08.15.5 CL: OK. Very good. Thank you. Now we'll go to your home life and if you would describe whether you had a telephone or a television or a refrigerator or did you have to have the ice come in through the ice truck and put in the box? FH: Yes. What you know about that? (Both laughing) CL: I've heard a lot about that. FH: We had a wood stove in the kitchen with a tank on the side of it and that's where we had our hot water and we bathed in tubs. You know, we didn't have bathrooms and this type thing. We had an outhouse and – What else you wanna know? (Both laughing) CL: Did you have a telephone? FH: No, no telephone. (Laughing) CL: How did you keep your food cold? FH: In that refrigerator. But with 10 children, we didn't have too much to keep cold. CL: OK, OK. (Both laughing) And did you have a telephone? FH: No, no telephone. CL: No telephone. How did you get your messages, through letter writing? FH: By mail, yeah. CL: Mail and that kind of thing. OK. Very good. OK. Did you all sit on the front porch in the afternoon to listen to stories? FH: Yes, we had a swing on the front porch, you know. In fact, we had a front porch and we had a back porch at that time and so we used to sit on the front porch and the porch wasn't large enough to hold of us and we'd sit down on the porch with our feet hanging over the end of the porch. You don't know anything about what I'm saying, you know. (Both laughing) CL: Did you all have to shell beans and -? FH: Yes, yes. We had to shell beans and everything pertaining to gardening, we done it. CL: OK. Because a lot of people did theirs right on the front porch and I wanted to know if that was part of your heritage also. FH: Yes. CL: OK. What kind of chores did you have to do around the house? FH: Well, cutting wood and bringing it in. Bring the coal in and feed the hogs and the chickens and all that kind of stuff. Work in the garden, you know, so we just done it all. And carry water. CL: Where would you carry the water – inside your house? FH: Yes. We had a pump on the corner, you know, and we had to pump the water and bring it in and I used to – that's the reason why my arms are so long. My mother used to take in washing, you know and I had to carry the water up for her to wash. 0.10.56.4 CL: Alrighty. When you were sitting around on the porch and listening to stories, were there any stories that you remember maybe about the Civil War or slavery or your family telling you something to watch out for as you grew older? FH: Yeah, yeah. My father, he came off a plantation. His father came off a plantation up in Stokes County, NC, up near Winston-Salem. My mother, she came off a plantation down at Berryhill (??) VA out of Danville and both of them were Hairstons because the white Hairstons at that time owned 9 plantations. They had plantations in North Carolina, Virginia and Mississippi. So I'm a double Hairston. (Laughing) CL: Did they ever tell you to watch out for certain things or to behave in a certain way or to do certain things in life? FH: Yeah. My daddy was very strict and he would leave orders when he would go to work in the morning and he would leave orders for what he wanted us to do that day and, above all, “Do what your mamma say. If you don't, you're going to be in big trouble”. �CL: (Light laughter) OK, thank you. Were you married? Did you get married later in life? FH: Yeah, I got married in 1942 in May. Of course, before I got married, my dad got disabled to work and I dropped out of high school after 2 years in high school I dropped out because he gave me his job in the mill to help support the family. CL: And which mill was that? FH: That was Marshall Field and Company. It was a blanket mill. You can find that information in this book here. 0.13.29.6 CL: OK. So later you married. Now when you married, did you have children right at that point or did you have children later in life. FH: I had one child before I went in the service. I was married in '42 and Esseck was born in February of '43. CL: OK. You had mentioned in the service. Were you in the service? FH: Yes, yes. I went in the service a month after Esseck was born. CL: Which branch did you - ? FH: I went in the Air Force and I didn't like the Air Force because they had a lot of lieutenants, you know, pilots, and kept me saluting all the time and I never liked that so I started goal braking (??) and my sergeant told me that he was going to have me shipped out and another after it. (??) And so he did and so I left Kernen, Nebraska (??) and went to Boise, Idaho – Wendover Field, Idaho, rather, and still in the Air Force. So they said they didn't need any more service people and so they shipped me out of Idaho, out of Boise to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, in the combat, not combat but in the field artillery. So they liquidated that outfit and I wound up in Columbia, South Carolina at Fort Jackson in the combat engineers. I went overseas with the combat engineers and that's where I got my experience as far as being a combat soldier. CL: Which war was this? FH: This was World War II. 0.15.06.0 CL: World War II. OK. When you were in Roanoke, where were you able to shop? Could you go to the grocery stores, five and dime and - ? FH: Yes. CL: OK. What is your fondest childhood memory? What's the best time you had? FH: I guess the fondest memory I had as a child is having a loving mother. CL: And a really loving family. FH: Yeah, yeah. My mother definitely was out of sight. My daddy was a discipline and she would tell him when she thought it was enough, she said, “That's enough”. (Laughing) CL: I can understand. And when you went on a family vacation, where did you go? Were you able to take a family vacation? Were you able to go see your grandparents or your aunts and uncles? FH: My aunt, one of my aunts. She just died a couple of years ago. She was 104. CL: Where did she live when you visited her? FH: She lived in Eden, NC. CL: So was that a nice time to go and visit her? Was that a pleasant memory? 0.16.23.1 FH: Yes, yes it was, you know. And on my mother's side, of course, they were more close to the white Hairston because white Hairston fathered some of them and my aunt was real fair, you know and I visited her I guess about 6 or 8 months before she died and I was teasing her. I said, “You are getting so white I didn't hardly know you”. (Laughing) I was teasing her about that. But I really enjoyed her and she loved me too, you know, and she didn't have but one child and whenever I wanted something extra, more so than what regular things that my mother had for the whole family, I would always go to her house. (Laughing) �CL: Did that include food or money? FH: Food, not money but food. They made ice cream and stuff like that, you know. Nothing that I didn't get a home too often. CL: I have heard a lot of stories about the snow, making ice cream from snow. Did your family ever do that? FH: Mm mm. CL: How did they make it? FH: My mother would go out and she would always scrape the top of the snow off, you know, and get some that didn't have any settling in it. She would take the snow and milk and flavoring and all that and mix it together and then she'd put it in the churn, in the ice cream churn, you know, and make it that way. 0.18.07.8 CL: OK Very good. You talked a lot about what you had done through the years in terms of working. Would you like to tell us anything else about your work experience? FH: Well, I've been blessed. The only thing I can say about my work experience because it afforded me all the things that I desired when I was young and growing up. I wanted a brick home and I wanted nice cars and I wanted my children educated and all this and this is what its done for me. And I look at my kids now and they're self-supporting and they're doing good in educating their children and it makes me feel so good, you know. So good, and I feel like out of this I've accomplished so much. CL: OK. Did you ever use the public library when you were coming up? FH: We didn't have a public library when I was coming up. CL: When you moved to Roanoke, did you? FH: Yes. CL: Were you able to come to the Gainsboro branch? FH: Yeah, occasionally. I worked so much and usually I read the papers and magazines and whatever classes that I would take. That was about the biggest time and of course I did a lot of praying and a lot of reading the bible and all that so I think that this is my life-thing now that I feel that I've gotten to the place now that I know that most important thing about living is the foundation, you know. Of course you can have all the learning in the world and if it doesn't have any common sense, it doesn't mean anything, you know. And I've seen people that are educated, I said educated fools because they didn't know what to do with it after they had it. Maybe you didn't ask for all of that. (Laughing) CL: When you say you pray a lot, do you come to church here? In Roanoke? FH: Yes, always. I've been a – I've been a deacon for at least 60 years, you know. CL: 60 years. Has it been in one church or have you been to different churches? FH: Different churches. The church I left in North Carolina. Of course I was a trial deacon when I was a young fella, 26 years old and I came to Roanoke. I've belonged to Sweet Union. When I came in 1979, I moved my membership to High Street, so that's where I've been. And so that's – Christianity is the foundation of my life and I just love it. CL: OK. Describe some of your cultural events. What do you do for entertainment? Or what did you do then for entertainment? Could you go to the activities that they had then or did you have to attend the Dumas? Where did you go for entertainment? FH: I went to movies. CL: Movies? FH: Yeah. CL: Were they downtown Roanoke? FH: Yeah, you had to go up in the attic, you know. (Laughing) CL: OK so you had to go upstairs in the movie theater. FH: Yeah. Of course they had the Virginia Theater on N Street, you know. So we went there and they used to have dances at – I done forgot the name of the place that they had over there. �CL: That was downtown Roanoke? FH: Yes. 0.22.15.9 CL: Who were some of the strong leaders during that time? FH: I would say Harry Penn, Dr. Penn, and CT Green and about all of the ministers at that time. They didn't only preach but they taught, you know. It seems like to me, we as a race used to be more serious about our religion than we are now and so CL: OK. Can you name one role model? I'm sure you had more than one but can you name maybe one or two role models that you had? FH: Well, I would say that my first role model was my older brother named Charlie. He came up and he was 12 years older than I and he was working in the mill. He opened up the first black grocery store in my community and he had a grocery store and he owned a barber shop and he had a restaurant and, you know. And he owned a lot of property. Out of this, I wanted to be like my brother, you know. He did very well for himself. CL: Was that here in Roanoke? FH: No. CL: That was in Eden? FH: Mm mm. CL: And his name was Charles Hairston? 0.24.08.0 FH: Yes, Charles. Of course, when he passed, he left a scholarship there at St. Pauls for children that was eligible to go to school. I haven't quite got there yet. CL: How has Roanoke changed through the years? What kind of changes have you seen? FH: When I came to Roanoke, Roanoke was a hick town. We had the bathrooms on the back porch, you know. And they had chickens and cows and pigs and (Laughing) in the community. CL: In the back yard? FH: Yes. Yes in the community. They had all these things and they had wagons and vendors with wagons hauling coal and wood and all that kind of stuff, fish and whatever that they had to offer. They do it by wagons, you know. CL: They would bring the fish in on the wagon? FH: Mm mm. CL: With the ice to cool it? FH: Mm mm. CL: OK, that's a big change from now isn't it? FH: Yeah and even the vendors when we were shopping clothes. They would come into the neighborhood to sell clothes and I think the first suit my father bought for me that I can remember was from a vendor and they had nickel pants, you know. You know what nickels are don't ya? CL: Mm mm. FH: And my long legs (Both laughing) I can laugh about it now, it wasn't funny then. (Both laughing) 0.25.55.2 CL: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills? FH: Mm mm. CL: Did any of your people work in the silk mills? FH: No. That was in Roanoke. CL: So that didn't affect your family at all did it? FH: No, it didn't affect. Because when I came to Roanoke, of course I was a professional plasterer and went to trade school after I got out of the Army and so that's how I started making a decent living for myself and for my family. CL: What kind of jobs were available when you came here? Do you know any of the other type of �jobs that were available to - ? FH: The railroads were the main jobs for black folks. CL: What was that? Railroad? FH: Yes, railroad. I would say that 80% of the trades was blacks. Blacks was plumbers, they were plumber helpers. They were bricklayers, carpenters and also plasterers. So we were very much in demand in the trade field. Mm mm. CL: This is going to end our interview for today but I want you to tell me anything that you would like to tell me about yourself right now. FH: (Chuckling) Well, one thing I'd like to say that I just been so blessed. I'm 84 years old and I can still run. I still have joy - not plagued with a whole lot of sickness and this type thing. And I'm just so appreciative, (quietly) so appreciative. CL: I know you are. FH: And I know that too. I've seen so many people that felt that they were better and had more and all that and they're somewhere now in a grave, you know, and for some reason I'm still here. But I've lived long enough to know now that whatever comes, I'm not afraid. (Pause) CL: Thank you so much for participating in the Gainsboro Branch Oral History Project. This will be housed in the Virginia Y. Lee Collection. And I'm hoping to get some more interviews but I do appreciate yours and if there is anything else you would like to say, I would love to hear it. FH: The only thing that I can say is that you should've got me much earlier when I was much sharper. CL: I think you did a great job. (Both laughing) And thank you again Fred. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2699/HairstonFred.1.jpg 04324a03f50c21af03826b13828165e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Frederick Douglas Hairston, Jr. Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Frederick Douglas Hairston Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 4 May 2008 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 28:53 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4 May 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Frederick Douglas Hairston, Jr.; Carla Lewis; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HairstonFred https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2698/WoodyVivian_[compressed].mp3 faa7e71b71963d2c755b264b1f3ce9b8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2698/WoodyVivian.pdf 96948b78fb04d9a75d5dcd9828844e0e PDF Text Text Interviewee: Woody, Vivian Interviewer: Arlene Ollie Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is February 23, 2008. I am about to interview Vivian Marie Poindexter Woody. We are located at Jerusalem Baptist Church. AO: We'll start off by my asking you – We don't have to go to this script. Anything you want to talk about is fine. They just have some suggestions for background questions which is: When and where were you born? Uh, how you grew up, that kind of thing. I know that you were born in Charleston, West Virginia. WV: Yes, I was. AO: And, what's your birthdate? WV: August 22, 1926. AO: How long have you lived in Roanoke? WV: We came to Roanoke approximately in 1947. AO: And, um, I know that you settled in Northwest. Do you want to give a brief rundown of the streets and neighborhoods that you lived in prior to...? 0.01.45.3 WV: When we first came to Roanoke, we lived on 14th Street for a short time. We had one child at that time when we came to Roanoke. And then we moved to Loudon Avenue. We stayed a short time. Another child was born and we went back to Rocky Mount and stayed maybe 6 or 8 months. Then, we came back to Roanoke and we lived on Wells Avenue. We stayed on Wells Avenue and then we moved to Fairfax Avenue. We had a small house and then another house became available and we went to Harrison Avenue and we lived there for maybe a year or two. And then we were able to buy a home and we moved to Rorer Avenue and that's where we raised 4 children and we are still on Rorer Avenue. The only people in our block who, now the only people who, that, - everyone else is gone. A lot of the neighbors have died and we are the only ones left. AO: Of the original people? WV: Mm mm AO: Wow. So when did you move on Rorer? WV: 1954. AO: 1954. WV: Yes. AO: That's a good little while. WV: Mm mm AO: Tell me about your parents, brothers, sisters? Did you have any? WV: My parents – It was my mother and my father and a brother. My father died when I was about 18 or 19 years old. My mother died in 1977. She was over here with us by that time. AO: Is your brother still living? WV: No, he's not. AO: OK. Do you have any extended family members living nearby? Aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, nephews? WV: I have a cousin. AO: Here in Roanoke? WV: Yes. AO: That's great. Would you describe your house that you, well, your house in Roanoke is on Rorer? WV: Mm mm AO: Is it a brick house? �WV: No, its a frame house. AO: Do you have a garden? WV: I used to have a flower garden but I'm not able to keep that up anymore. AO: What kind of activities did you participate in? WV: Church. Morningstar was a big part of my life and all through the years. The church was there when we moved up there and the minister came and he was looking for members. He invited us to the church and I was glad to have a church that I could walk to because it was right down the street. I found a lot of activities and love participating and loved working with the children in the community. There were lots of children in the community. AO: How about now? WV: Not as many as there used to be. You know its AO: Yeah. What kind of work did your family do? WV: My mother was a domestic. She did domestic housework and what-not. She came over here and found work after my father died. My dad was a clothes presser. He worked in a dry-cleaning establishment. AO: Did he work here? WV: He would come over here and find work in dry cleaners over here. He would stay a while and he would come back. When work got slack in Rocky Mount and what-not. He did come over here at one time. But, it was work over there to do and he worked in it. He was a good presser and he was also a barber. AO: Great. WV: Mm mm. 0.07.54.4 AO: Tell me about your school life? For instance, where did you attend school? Did you walk? Were you ever allowed to stay home from school. WV: No. (Laughing) No. School was a wonderful experience. You went to school everyday and you looked forward to going to school. I graduated from Franklin County Training School and had the opportunity to go to West Virginia State. AO: Did you attend? WV: Uh huh. AO: Great. Did you graduate? WV: For a while, no, no. When I found out that I had to take public speaking for the next semester, I said no and they told me how that teacher was and what-not. (Laughing) And I was a shy person and I did not go back. AO: So how long did you stay? WV: That semester. AO: Just one semester? WV: Mm mm. But I was able to find a job as a substitute teacher in the school system over in Franklin County. And I taught school at a 2 room school for one year and then I got married. AO: Did you work during the time you were married? WV: Not very much. I stayed at home until the last children – I think Andrea had finished school, Miranda was getting ready to finish and I found a job as a teacher's aide over at Hurt Park and I worked over there. AO: Really? WV: Mm mm. AO: That's great. OK, during you growing up years – So, you grew up in Rocky Mount? WV: Mm mm. AO: Would you describe your homelife? For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening? WV: Yes �AO: Do you remember when you got a phone/refrigerator, that kind of thing? WV: I don't think we had a – we had an ice box and the man would come and bring the ice with the tongs and what-not. And, I don't think we got a refrigerator until I had left home. But the radio, I remember listening to the prize fights, Joe Lewis, and listening to the ball games and I was always a Yankee fan. I always have been and always will be, no matter what comes. (Interviewer Laughing) AO: Did you sit on the porch in the evening? WV: Yes, we did. During the summertime, we would have watermelon and we'd put the watermelon out in the grass on a rainy day or something and it would cool, a cool day, you know? And in the evening, we would cut the watermelon and have watermelon. AO: Alright. What chores did you have to do around the house? WV: Washing dishes and helping to iron. My mother worked and sometimes when she would come home, she took in washings. Sometimes I would have things that I could do. I would have that iron and press and such as filling the wood box. I would go out and cut/split kindling wood and what-not and have the wood box filled so she wouldn't have do that in the evening. And I helped her to wash and hang up clothes. We had a garden and we would have to pull weeds. We would pick beans and all things like that. It was a good life. AO: Sounds like it. WV: Mm mm. And school, like I said, I loved school. AO: Was it far from your home? WV: No, I was right at school. I could walk up the path to school. The children that came on the bus, they all liked to come home with me to lunch and I met a boy, a young man, not too long ago over to the funeral home, and he remembered coming down to my house because we had a big pear tree and he said he had never tasted pears as good as those pears. (Both laughing) And I said, “I thought you kids were coming home with me because they liked me”. (Both laughing) AO: That's cute. WV: They always came home with me to lunch. (Laughing) AO: That's fantastic. Did your parents pass down any family stories, you know, about their growing up, their parents, their childhood? WV: Uh, my mother grew up on a farm and I was able to go back to her home and spend the summers on that farm and what-not. AO: Was that in Franklin County also? WV: That's in Botetourt County. AO: OK. Where in Botetourt? WV: Uh AO: Fincastle, Eagle Rock WV: They called it Buchanan where we were. The Barnetts from Botetourt County. AO: Ed Barnett? WV: Ed Barnett is my granddaddy. AO: OK WV: My grandmother's name was Iantha, Ianthia. 0.15.22.5 AO: OK. Did your husband or sons serve in the military. WV: Yes, he did. AO: In which wars? WV: WWII. He has great stories to tell about that because he was in the area where the Aborigines were and he liked to talk about them. AO: That sounds interesting. WV: Their customs and what-not and he was telling me the other day how they fished, how they found some substance in the water and they would get it out, I guess it was some kind of wood. And he said �that they could get it out. It was soft when they got it out. They trimmed it and shaped it and laid it out to get dry. They could stand in the water and watch the fish and spear the fish and that substance got just as hard as anything. AO: That is interesting. Did he come down with you today? WV: No, he's not able to come. AO: Would he be willing to be interviewed by someone if they came down? WV: I don't know. (Laughing) AO: We'll have to call him and ask him. 'Cause it would be great to get his stories about being in Australia. That would be fantastic. OK. What businesses and shops did you and your husband frequent? I'm curious. I would say this briefly, with the research that I've been doing, it seems as if Salem Avenue was almost like Henry Street to Northwest. It seemed to be a lot of businesses on Salem Avenue. Were they there when you came to Roanoke. 'Cause the years that I've noticed this is back like in 1915. Right out in here 'cause Dr. Pinkert (??)had a hotel. WV: You know I didn't know anything about that. AO: OK, so that was all gone by the time you got here? WV: Mm mm. AO: So, where'd you shop? You know, grocery shop? WV: Where did I grocery shop? Hmm There was a – When we moved up here, there was a store – I'm thinking it was a Kroger Store. AO: Really? WV: You know where Save 'n Shop is, Claude's store now? AO: Uh huh. WV: Long years ago, that was a grocery store and I think it was a Kroger Store, now I'm not sure. I'm really not sure. AO: What's the name of that street? Patterson? WV: Patterson Avenue. AO: I'll have to check into that. Did you go down on the market? WV: Some. I can't really remember where we got most of our groceries at that time. AO: What if you just wanted to, say, go out as a family, where would you go? WV: Go out as a family – I can't remember. I don't think – I can't remember or recall it right off. I remember going to that store that I was telling you, like the grocery store, for 4th of July and I bought some things and he bought some things and he had bought practically the same thing that I bought. (Interviewer laughing) AO: Did you ever go to Henry Street for anything? WV: The most thing – Now we were talking about that a couple of days ago and I saw the little article about the Brooks in the Tribune. AO: Albert Brooks? WV: Mm mm. And I told him, I said, “Maybe that was Dr. Brooks' people”. It wasn't? AO: No. He came out of Wirtz in Franklin County, Albert Brooks did. Um, I said I was going to do the genealogy to see if there is any connection at all but he was John M. Brooks that owned Brooks Pharmacy. That was what you were talking about. WV: Uh huh. We used to go there sometimes and get a sandwich and I told him, good liver cheese sandwiches. AO: Really? WV: And it was a nice place to go in. Quiet. And that's the only place that I really remember going on Henry Street. Otherwise, I don't remember anything else. And he told me that there was a club up over there, 308 Club or something like that, over the drug store. AO: Mm mm, yeah. I don't know when it started though. Yeah, it was. I know it was there when we moved back to Virginia in 1962. �0.22.04.9 WV: OK. And went to Virginia Theatre and otherwise, it wasn't a whole lot of going out for me. Now, he may have known places to go and what-not, but I didn't. AO: Mm mm, OK. What is your fondest childhood memory? For example, was it a holiday event or a family vacation or a gift that you received? Just a memory that brings you pleasure like you talked about the kids coming home with you for lunch from school. Anything that sticks out in your mind about your childhood. WV: I don't remember anything. Christmas was always a nice memories and getting a box from my grandmother at Christmastime. We looked forward to that. AO: Do you use the public library? WV: Yes. I talked about the library on my way down here. AO: Really? WV: I miss the library when I moved to Southwest because I used to walk to the library from Harrison Avenue. AO: Down to Gainsboro? WV: To get books. Uh huh. And I miss the library. AO: So you didn't got to any of the dances and..? WV: No. AO: Who were some of the strong community leaders during that time? Did you have any role models? WV: I remember Miss Lee being a figure. Virginia Lee? AO: Mm mm. Anybody else come to mind? WV: I remember some ladies that used to go up to the VA and entertain the patients, Miss Mary Claytor. I met her when I came to Roanoke, when we lived on Fairfax. She and her daughter Mary Claytor, they kinda took us as their children, she and Mr. Claytor and they took my children, the two older children to First Baptist and they were nice people to know and what-not. When you're young and living, you know, and I really appreciated them. They were like family to us. AO: How has Roanoke changed over the years? WV: How has Roanoke changed over the years? AO: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills. Did they have any effect on you and your family? WV: Not really. Not really. 'Cause I didn't, I never worked at that. My husband never worked at that. He went to the VA. Well he worked for Kroger and he went to the VA. He worked for Rainbow Bakery. He worked for Kroger Bakery and finally he went to the VA. AO: Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you'd like to share with us? WV: I can't think of anything else. AO: OK, well I thank you so much for coming down this morning and sharing your story with us and I will make sure that someone gets in touch with you about the pictures that you had that you wanted us to see. And about seeing if we can get someone to interview your husband if he'd like to be interviewed. So, again... WV: What kind of pictures would you be interested in? When I think about the neighborhood and what-not, I think about the children that have grown up... AO: In that neighborhood. And perhaps even if you have say pictures of just your general surroundings, your house, what the neighborhood looked like. WV: Mm mm. AO: You know, before now, today. Any kind of visible change that can be discerned through the photographs. WV: Oh, I was talking to a child that came to see me. She used to live on Rorer and I was showing her some pictures and her husband was with her and he was talking about the trees and what-not and wanted to know if those trees were there and I said, “Yes, there was a tree-lined street when we moved �up there but they kept trimming the trees off of the line and what-not and finally the trees just got old and disappeared and what-not. It was was a beautiful tree-lined street, Rorer was. AO: On both sides or one side? WV: On both sides. AO: Times have truly changed. WV: Mm mm. AO: Truly changed. And again I want to thank you for coming in. WV: It was a good neighborhood and I was telling somebody, the kids used to play football in the street because there were so many kids and what-not. And they would send the police out. (Both laughing) Everybody would scatter. AO: Everybody was running then, right? WV: Right, uh huh. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Vivian Woody Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Vivian Woody Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 29:16 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Vivian Woody; Arleen Ollie; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WoodyVivian https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2697/WilsonGloria.pdf ed478371df8085f61500b866afb36510 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Gloria Wilson Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is February 23, 2008. My name is Alicia Sell and I am with Roanoke Public Libraries and I am interviewing Ms. Gloria Jean Wilson and we are at Jerusalem Baptist Church today for the Hurt Park Neighborhood Collection. AS: That you for being with us Ms. Wilson. GW: Alright. AS: I'm gonna start with just some background questions about yourself. When and where were you born? GW: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, June 29th, '43. AS: OK. And have you lived in Roanoke your whole life? GW: No I haven't. I've lived in several places during my time. AS: Can you tell me what streets and neighborhoods you have lived on here in Roanoke. GW: Oh, OK, I first was on Patton Avenue Northwest in the 500 block and then I have lived on 5th Street Northwest, um, Fairhope Road. That's Northwest also and uh, Florida Avenue. AS: OK. Let's see. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents? What were their names and where did they come from. GW: OK. My parents names, my mother's name was Lillian Nemo Wingfield and my father's name was Earnest Wingfield. And they were both from Vinton, Virginia. I think my father he came from Truevine which is a little outskirts of Vinton. So, but anyway, both of them they were raised in Vinton, Virginia. AS: Why did they move from Vinton to Roanoke? GW: Well, my father, he passed, he was killed in a car accident. I was only a year old at that time. And my mom, well we were living in Vinton with my aunt and my grandmother. I really don't remember the year but I was in the 4th grade when we moved to Roanoke. And they were just selling out in Vinton so that's basically why we moved to Roanoke. AS: And, um, let's see, did your mother remarry after your father died or did you - ? GW: No, she didn't. She didn't remarry. AS: Let's see. What kind of work did your father do? GW: That, uh, I really don't know what he did because like I said I was a year old when he passed and so I never talked with my mother about it. AS: Did your mother work? GW: Yes she did. She did domestic work. AS: And you say that you lived with your aunt in Vinton? GW: Yes, uh huh. AS: Did you have extended family living in Roanoke as well? Aunts or uncles or grandparents? GW: Uh, yes. I had an uncle living in Roanoke and, yeah, my uncle and my aunt was living in Roanoke. AS: And were you very close to your extended family? GW: Yes. AS: Did they play an important role in your life? GW: Yes, they did. Mm mm. AS: Did you have any brothers or sisters? GW: I had one brother. AS: And is he older? GW: He's older, yes. �AS: When you moved to Roanoke in 4th grade, can you describe your house for us? Was it brick or did you have a garden, those kinds of things? GW: It was wood frame and we did have a little garden out in the back. Just a little small one like tomatoes and green beans, something like that. But, uh, it was on Patton Avenue. That's where we first moved. AS: What kind of activities did you participate in as a child in growing up here in Roanoke? GW: Well, we played ball a lot. I played softball and I didn't cheer but I was very active with the Y teams. Skating, that type of thing. AS: Where did you attend school growing up, Elementary, Middle and High School? GW: OK, um, like I say, when I first started in school, I went to Craig Avenue School in Vinton. That was the elementary. When we moved to Roanoke, I went to Harrison Elementary School. After that, I think they only went to the 6th grade. We went to Booker T. Washington Junior high and then, of course, to Addison and I graduated from Addison. 0.05.25.3 AS: Did you walk to school or did you take the bus? GW: We walked in Vinton in and Roanoke. (Laughing) We walked. AS: Did your brother walk with you or did you have friends who you would walk with? GW: Well, my brother walked with me, yeah, when we were in Vinton and then – 'Cause my mom, she, sometimes she'd walk with us and then when we were in Roanoke, yeah, we walked together my brother and I. AS: Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? GW: No, not unless I was really sick and then I had to be real sick for to stay at home. AS: Was school important to your mother? GW: Yes, it was. Mm mm. Because at that time, when she was growing up, I think she only went to the 10th grade, uh, and she was very adamant about us going to school. AS: So how much schooling did you complete? GW: Well, I finished the 12th grade. I went to business school for a year and then I did, went to nursing school. I finished nursing school as an LPN. AS: What schools were those, what business schools? GW: National Business School and then it was Burrel Roanoke City Nursing School. AS: Do you know Sarah Scruggs? GW: Sara Scruggs? I believe so. She was a Barry. Yeah, I think I know her when I see her. AS: Yeah, she works at the library now but she went to Burrel Nursing School. GW: Yes, I think I know her. (Laughing) AS: Did your brother attend college or did either of your parents attend college? GW: No and my brother didn't either. He went into the Marines and he spent 4 years there. AS: Describe your home life for us. For instance, did you have a radio that you'd listen to in the evening? Do you remember when you got a telephone or a refrigerator? GW: I don't remember but, I can't even remember being without a refrigerator. As far as I remember, we've always had a refrigerator. As far as the telephone, I don't remember being without that either. AS: Were you allowed to talk on the telephone a lot? GW: Well, not a whole lot until after I had homework. If I finished my homework, I could talk on the telephone for a while but then - I don't remember, but it was a certain time we could not receive calls. AS: Did your house have a porch on it and if it did, do you remember if you sat on the porch in the evening and did you know your neighbors and talk to them a lot? GW: Yes, yes. We had a porch, yes, and I knew my neighbors and we would talk and fellowship. It was really nice. AS: Were your neighbors important? Did they watch out for you as well? GW: Yes, yes. Because at that time, we had neighbors on both sides and they looked out, well, at that �time, we'd look out for each other and they would look out for our family and, of course, we would look out for theirs. AS: Did you have chores around the house or around the neighborhood? GW: Well, I had some chores at home. Mom wasn't real strict about the chores but we had to keep our rooms clean and then we had certain times to wash dishes. There was just me and my brother so we did do them. So it wasn't bad. 0.09.42.8 AS: Did you get along with your brother? GW: Yes, very much so. The only thing that (laughing) I would say, he did a lot of things and he could go places and I would say, “Well, why can't I go?”. Because Russell would go. So my mom would tell me that he's a boy and I can't do everything that he do. So, but we got along real well. Yeah. AS: Did your mom, did he have to do a lot of chores? GW: Well, no, he didn't have a lot to do. He would do, what did Russel do? Not a lot. To tell the truth, I don't remember what he actually did. But, uh, he, 'cause when he was old enough, he did have a paper route and so that's about it. AS: What paper did he deliver? Was it the Tribune? GW: No, no. He did the, it wasn't called the Roanoke Times at that time. It was World News, I believe it was and he would deliver that. AS: Did you have any family stories that were passed down from generation to generation? For instance, recipes or stories about the Civil War or slavery? GW: Mmm. Not that I can remember, no. AS: And you said your brother served in the Marines. Did he ever serve during active war time? GW: Um, no, because, let me see. He was, he went in in '60 and I think he was out in '64 or '65. So I don't think he was in any active problem. AS: Did your husband or children ever serve in the war? GW: Yes, my husband, let's see, Jack, that's my second husband, he was in the Korean War. And my son, he was in the war in Saudi Arabia. What was that? Desert Storm? I believe it was and because he, at that time, he was in Kansas and so my second husband and I, we drove to Kansas City to see him before he left going to Saudi Arabia. 0.12.28.8 AS: Going back a little bit, what businesses and shops did your mom and you shop at? Like, for instance, where did you go grocery shopping? Where would you go to get your clothes or a record store or anything like that? GW: At the time, there was a grocery store downtown. It was called A&P and we went down there a lot. At that time, we were riding the bus so we went there a lot to do grocery shopping. And for clothes-wise, there was a store called Kanns and we shopped there a lot because, I'll never forget. I was in the debutante ball and we went there and got my Mouton coat, which I still have. (Laughing) I wore it in the debutante ball and my daughter, she wore it also when she was a debutante. AS: That is so neat. When were you in the debutante ball? GW: I was in the debutante ball in '60 or '61. I guess '61, Christmas, 'cause usually you're in Christmas – Well it was Christmas of '60 because its usually there at Christmas and you're a senior and graduating in '61, yeah. AS: Did you have to get picked to be part of the ball or how do you get into it? GW: Uh, yeah, um, at that time, they were picking girls and – I think they was, I mean, I really don't know because at the time, oh, you just signed up to be in the debutante ball. And, of course, they go around and, you know, ask questions and things to see if you qualify to really be one. So, I was one, yeah, and my daughter was to. AS: Did you love your dress? GW: Yes, I did. At that time, you know, you could pick your own dress out and, as long as it was �white and then you had your white gloves and it was real nice. AS: That's wonderful. GW: (Laughing) AS: Was it a special treat – Did you shop in the downtown market and was it like a big deal to go downtown for your family? GW: Well, yes, because I liked to go with mom downtown to shop and I would help her and pick out a few things but as we got older, you know, I went with her, but my mom, when she got older, she still had to go downtown. Of course, there wasn't an A&P there anymore. But, uh, on the market. People would bring in fresh products and vegetables and everything, and she loved to go. She had to go to the market every Saturday whether we needed anything or not. That was just her task, to go to the market every Saturday morning. 0.15.44.4 AS: What would you do for entertainment? GW: Well, for entertainment, we had, like I say, I was involved with the Y teams a lot and we would, uh, we would have socials, as you called a little dancing and you'd have a disc jockey and all. Or either we'd have stay-in parties and at home, we had television and basically. that was most of our entertainment. AS: Did you ever shop at the stores on Henry Street? GW: Well, yes, I had - We used to go to the movie on Henry Street which was Virginia Theatre and then we had the Dumas Hotel. We'd go there to get milkshakes and ice cream, things like that. And, of course, I did go several times, they had a Brooks Pharmacy there so I had been there a couple of times and, yeah, I have – and as I got older, that was our entertainment center, going up Henry Street. They had the clubs there and... AS: Did you go to the Ebony Club? GW: Yes I have. (Laughing) It was, at that time it was nice. Yeah. AS: Did you see good entertainment? Were there dances? GW: Yeah, I remember, well, was this at the Ebony? - I believe it was a recording star called the – what is it? - He do, I forget his name - “Do The Dog”. But anyway, whatever his name was, I saw him there. And, of course, it was the Star City on the, it was right on Wells Avenue off from Henry Street. So I went there quite a bit to see some of the recording stars – Of course, James Brown was there, I saw him. Little Richard and I also saw Otis Redding there, Jackie Wilson – So it was really nice at that time, mm mm. AS: That's wonderful. Do you have a favorite childhood memory? For instance, a favorite holiday, vacation or gift that you ever received? GW: Uh, well, Christmas was really a favorite holiday because, see, like I say, my dad died when I was a year old and my mom seemed like she just tried to, you know, just give us all she could. Well, between she and my aunt and my grandmother, they made a very good Christmas for us and it was just so exciting for my brother and I to tip-toe down the stairs. We would try to wait 'til – first thing in the morning, I'd say maybe 5 or 6, go see what Santa Claus had brought us. It was very exciting to go and see the different gifts and things that Santa Claus had brought us. It was just a joy. AS: Would you have a family gathering on Christmas? Would you get together with your grandma and your aunt and family? GW: Yes, at that time, yeah. And then, even it continued as we got older, you know, we would get together on Christmas - well after I got grown and we all had children, we would, of course, be at our own homes at that time, but later in the day or the next day, we would still have a family gathering. Now, basically, my aunt that lived in Southwest, she, uh, as we moved on, she was the one that always fixed the dinners and had all the families together. AS: Would you get together regularly at her house. GW: Yes. Pretty much so. Mm mm. �0.20.10.8 AS: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? GW: Well, I have, um, first I started off after I finished high school, I worked at a hospital in the dietary. At that time, I think I was going to business school, National Business School. After that, I have worked in, um, a factory. It was Kriss (??) Uniform factory in the shipping department. I worked there for several years and I worked, uh, - I went to Youngstown. I worked in, um, not a, it was a cleaning, pressing shirts and then when I did come back, I went to nursing school. I think that was in the '70s and I've been in nursing since then. AS: Which hospital did you work at? Did you work at hospitals here in Roanoke? GW: Yes, I've worked, it was old Camelot at first, now its Salem Rehab. Then I worked at Burrel, Old Burrel Nursing Home and then I've worked at, let me see, Roanoke Memorial briefly and then I retired from the VA. AS: Who were some of the strong community leaders in this area and what roles did they play? Like for instance, ministers or bankers or a few people have even mentioned Dr. Penn. GW: Let me see. Dr. Butler - He was a dentist. OK, and ….. (??) for being – and let me see, who else? Community leaders? Uh, I'm trying to think. Now my pastor, he is very good in the community, of course. He is not really very active but when he, Reverend Ivory Morton. He's, you know, a good person. AS: Who were your role models growing up? GW: Well, basically, my mom. I really tried to be a lot like her. She was a good Christian woman and she was for the right thing and in a lot of ways, she was just settled in her ways and, you know, I never will forget – see mom – like I say, my dad died when I was a year old. And she never remarried and sometimes, I regret this. She never remarried because I, you know, I don't know whether she felt because of me and my brother or what, but she had a friend and they were – I would see they would go to formals and things and they looked so good together. I often wonder but she said she would never remarry while we were young, while we growing up. And she didn't. They were a pair up until the end. Now when I, my brother was in the service, I was getting ready to graduate. I graduated from high school and I think she might have gotten married then but her friend died. And you know, I think about that often, just like - now I divorced my children's dad when they were, let's see, I guess JC was about 7. Tanya was 3 and I said that I would never remarry while they were young. And I don't know whether I got that from mom or what, but I just had that feeling like – I said, “As long as they had a good relationship with their father, I didn't want to jeopardize that”. And so I didn't. I did not get married again until my daughter, she was getting ready to graduate from college and then I remarried. And then, by that time, OK, my second husband, we had been dating for about 10 years and so after they graduated, you know, they were grown, we got married and we didn't have a good 5 years together and then he passed. So but we did have a good 5 years together as man and wife. AS: That's wonderful 0.26.06.2 AS: How has Roanoke changed over the years? GW: Well, it has changed – crime has really been increased. It has really changed because at one time you could walk the streets by yourself, leave your doors open. I mean, you wouldn't dream of anyone saying anything to you or bothering you and now you are afraid to even go to the corner by yourself. I don't know what it is, but the children, they just don't have any respect for their parents or anyone else. And you can't say this all the time is the parents fault. Its just the child, himself. And, uh, now that they have the law of child abuse, a lot of children, if your parents, if the parents speak out to the child, the first thing they say, they'll get you for child abuse and all that. At that time, when we were growing up, you didn't have that. But, uh, its just a big change and, like I say, a lot of these children, they don't want to be corrected and see, even then, at one time, parents, this couple over here or across the street or behind you or whatever could correct you. (Knock at door) �0.28.01.7 (Beginning of second recording) AS: OK, its going again. GW: They could correct your child and now, some of the parents, if you correct their child, they are ready to lay you out or whatever. So, you just can't do like you used to. AS: So there's not the neighborhood bonding like there used to be? GW: Right, that's correct. (Softly) Its not. AS: Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you'd like to share with us? GW: No. I've just enjoyed working with the West End neighborhood really. Because, now, even thought I'm in Northwest, my friend, Christine, works diligently with the West End and I enjoy that and its just been a joy to work with them. AS: Well, great, wonderful. Thank you for allowing us to interview you today. GW: Thank you. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2697/WilsonGloria_[compressed].mp3 d3f7f92aeb20fced59823b62e1558ada Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gloria Jean Wilson Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gloria Jean Wilson Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 29:05 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gloria Jean Wilson; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilsonGloria https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2696/ToliverLaura_[compressed].mp3 8ddc09dfb1f5a26390ce64e37f86acf1 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2696/ToliverLaura.pdf 834d9a9fdec9cbe37a1d66eb20e5dd81 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Laura Toliver Interviewer: Alica Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling My name is Alica Sell and I'm with the Roanoke Public Libraries and today is February 23, 2008, and we are at Jerusalem Baptist Church. I am interviewing Ms. Laura Marguarite Toliver. Also sitting in with us today is Anita Louse Ollie. AS: Thank you for being with us today. I'm going to start the interview by asking you some background questions about yourself. Can you tell me – this is a slight repeat of what I asked you to fill out on the form - Can you tell me again when and where were you born? LT: I was born August 25, 1917 in Botetourt County, Virginia, Buchanan, Virginia. AS: And when did you come to Roanoke? LT: To live, I came to Roanoke in 1954. AS: And why did you come to Roanoke? LT: My husband and I moved here from Forest, Virginia, and we came here to get a job to work. And we got a job. AS: What job did you do? LT: I worked for Shenandoah Life Insurance Company for 24 ½ years. AS: And what did your husband do for a living? LT: My husband was a chauffeur for Dr. E.G. Gill. AS: Dr. Gill? LT: Yeah. AS: So he drove him around town? LT: Yes. AS: Let's see. When you moved to Roanoke, what streets and neighborhoods did you live on? LT: When I moved to Roanoke, I lived in Rorer Avenue, SW. AS: Do you still live in the same house? LT: Still live in the same house. AS: Did you and your husband build that house? LT: No. AS: Or was it already built? LT: It was already built. That was built in 1927. That house was built in 1927. AS: Can you describe your house for us? For instance, is it brick, does it have a garden, does it have a front porch? LT: Its a square built house with a big, pretty front porch, front yard with the hedges near the porch and in the back, its a big back yard, with boxwoods down the walk. AS: Did you have a garden in it ever? LT: No. Never had a garden, just had flowers. AS: We'll talk a little bit about your early childhood even though its not in Roanoke. LT: OK. AS: Can you tell me your parents names and what did they do for a living? LT: My parents names were John Barnett and Mary Barnett and he was a sharecropper for a long time but he bought his home and he worked hard sharecropping and also worked for the Highway Department of Virginia. AS: Did your mother work? LT: No. AS: Did you have brothers and sisters? LT: Yes, I had 2 sisters, Dorothy Barnett Cowan and Blanche Barnett Ferguson and they both have �passed. AS: Where did you fall in the order of girls? LT: I was the second girl. 0.03.30.4 AS: Did you have extended family members living by you growing up? Like your grandparents or aunts and uncles? LT: No, I don't remember any grandparents. I had an aunt and an uncle that lived about ¼ of a mile from us and the aunt was a Mrs. Waldron and she had 2 girls and they have both passed. AS: Did you play with your cousins a lot? LT: Yes, and we went to school together. AS: Where did you go to school in Buchanan? LT: Lily of the Valley School. Its about 6 miles, uh, 6 miles south of Buchanan. AS: So how did you get to school? LT: We walked to school. We walked 3 miles to school every day. AS: What kind – you said your dad was a sharecropper, correct? LT: Yes. AS: Did you have chores growing up around your house? LT: Yes. We always had to work in the garden. We always had – I had to milk the cow. Things like that. Work in the garden and help with the farm. AS: Did you enjoy it? LT: I guess I did. At that time, we didn't know any better. (Laughing) Yes. AS: Were you aware of Roanoke when you were growing up? Had you heard of it? LT: Oh, yes. AS: Did you ever come into Roanoke? LT: Yes. We had relatives here. AS: Did you like - What was it like when you came to visit Roanoke growing up. LT: Very seldom I came to visit Roanoke. When I did come, I come to go to the store or something like that and we thought going to the 5 and 10 cents store was something grand. (Chuckling) That's where we went. Very seldom we'd come to Roanoke to visit. 0.05.30.8 AS: Did you have a car growing up or what kind of transportation did you have available? LT: We would ride the Greyhound Bus to Roanoke. AS: Let's see. So you said you went to Lily of the Valley for education. Did that go into high school too? LT: No. AS: What high school did you go to? LT: I did not go to high school. AS: Oh, OK. How many years of schooling did you complete? LT: Seven. AS: Did you or anyone in your family attend college? LT: My younger sister attended Bluefield State and she had a degree, Bachelors of Science Degree, I believe that's what it was. And she taught school. AS: Wonderful. LT: Mm mm. AS: So you said that you and your husband moved to Roanoke for jobs. LT: Yes. AS: And you moved to Rorer Avenue. What was your home life like? Was the community – Were you actively involved in your neighborhood? Did you know your neighbors? LT: I knew my neighbors but they were – well, we lived about a half a mile from different ones. �Wasn't nobody close up together but I knew them all. AS: Do you remember sitting on the porch in the evening? LT: Sure. AS: Would you talk to your neighbors then? LT: Well, if they would come by but we were - I knew them all. AS: Did you or a spouse or children ever serve in the military? LT: My husband did. AS: Did he serve - Which war did he serve in? LT: Two, World War II. AS: This I'll ask you is when you – after you moved to Roanoke. What businesses and shops did your family go to? LT: What business? AS: Mm mm. Like for instance, where did you go to buy clothes or groceries? Did you go to the market building downtown to go grocery shopping? LT: Most time, we raised the garden in the country down at my home in Botetourt County. We raised a garden down there so we didn't have to go downtown and hunt vegetables and things 'cause we had a garden down there. 0.07.54.0 AS: But when you moved to Roanoke, did you go to the city market. LT: Sometimes, not often. AS: Where would you go shopping for clothes or just things you needed around the house? LT: We would go downtown and shop at – I had an account at Sidney's, Lazarus, Heironimus. AS: So tell me, you say you had an account. What was that like? You would charge - Is it - ? LT: If I wanted to charge I would. AS: OK. How did you get downtown? Did you have a car or did you take the city's transportation? LT: Take the city transportation downtown. AS: Was it a big deal to come downtown? LT: No. AS: No. OK. Do you have a favorite childhood memory, holiday event or vacation? LT: Hmmm. I used to visit my aunt that lived in Bland Country and I would go there maybe in the Summertime and stay 2 weeks and then I'd come back home. AS: And you enjoyed doing that? LT: Yeah, I enjoyed doing that. AS: How would you get down to Bland County? LT: My aunt would come down. They had a car and they'd come and I'd go back like, that's how I'd go. AS: Was it a special treat for you? LT: Yeah. AS: Did your sisters go with you too or did you go by yourself? LT: I went by myself and when they went, they went by themselves. AS: Did your aunt have children? LT: She had one son. AS: That's fun. LT: (Chuckle) AS: So you said you worked for the Shenandoah Life Company? LT: Mm mm. Shenandoah Life Insurance. AS: And what kind of work did you do for them? LT: I was the cook in the cafeteria. AS: This has to do with Hurt Park in the Roanoke area. Who were some of the strong community �leaders here in Roanoke when you moved here, just living here throughout the years? LT: Hmmm. I can't remember that. AS: Like ministers or doctors or some people have even mentioned like the undertaker was important to them, to their community. You don't remember? LT: I don't remember. 0.10.26.6 AS: What would you do for entertainment in Roanoke? For instance, did you ever go to the Ebony Club or to see entertainers perform or to Kaiser's Record Shop or anything like that? LT: Kaiser's Record Shop. We would buy records at Kaiser's Record Shop. AS: Did you ever go to the movies or anything? LT: Yes. AS: Where would you go to the movies when you - ? LT: On Henry Street. AS: Do you remember the name of the theater? LT: Virginia Theater. AS: How has Roanoke changed over the years? LT: It has changed quite a bit. Hmmm. Like the movies, the movies have changed. Like the schools have changed, school has changed and everything from downtown. My daughter went to – Where did Lavin (??) go to high school? AO: She went to Jefferson? LT: Jefferson. No, she didn't go to Jefferson, she went to Addison. She went to Booker T. and then she went to Addison. She graduated from Addison in '60. AS: Did your children go to school during the – when they were integrating the schools? LT: No. AS: No. That was after they went to school. LT: Mm mm. AS: Do you remember when integration happened and how did it - ? LT: Oh yes, I remember but my daughter was out of school by that – Was she out of school? AO: Mm mm. LT: Yeah. AS: Was it a big deal in Roanoke when that happened? LT: I don't think so. AS: They didn't make a big deal about it? LT: No. AS: It went pretty smoothly? LT: Mm mm. AS: Was it easy for people to find jobs in Roanoke? LT: Yes. Its more people out of work now in Roanoke than it had been. Most time, people had jobs. AS: When you and your husband moved here, was it very easy for you to find work. LT: Yes. Oh yes. Mm mm. AS: Well, those are really the questions that I have here. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to share with us? LT: No. OK. AS: OK. Thank you for allowing us to interview you Ms. Toliver. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Laura Toliver Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Laura Toliver Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 12:52 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Laura Marguerite Toliver; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ToliverLaura https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2695/Showalter.Sarah.2008.pdf a60b9507bc67857b1888f56711cf2499 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Sarah Showalter Interviewer: Pam Young Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today's date is February 23, 2008. Today we are interviewing Mrs. Sarah Hodd Showalter. We are at the Jerusalem Baptist Church in Roanoke, VA. PY: Ms. Showalter, when and where were you born? SS: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, July 16, 1936. In fact, I was born on Salem Avenue, right behind this church. PY: How long – so you've been here all your life? Have you always lived in this neighborhood? SS: I don't live in this neighborhood now but I grew up here. I lived here, up here, for 30 years. PY: Can you tell me about your brothers and sisters and extended family you have in the area? SS: I didn't have any brothers or sisters. I was a foster child and I grew up in this neighborhood and I was everybody's child. They nicknamed me “Babe”. PY: What kind of activities did you participate in Roanoke? SS: When I was small, my foster mother owned a grocery store. We had the only black grocery store, just about, in this neighborhood. So, I got a chance to meet a lot of people. The lady who raised me had infantile paralysis during that time, and now its called Polio. Therefore, she was crippled. She took me when I was 3 years old and I grew up working. I worked most of the time. I used to like to roller skate but I had very little time for that because by her being crippled or paralyzed, I stayed there and I was sort-of her right hand. Her name was Ms. Irene _______ (??). She's my mentor because she taught me that you can do anything that you want to do in spite of adversity. PY: Lets see, what about education? SS: You mean where I went to school? PY: Yes. SS: During those years, it was segregated so we had to be bussed over to Harrison in the Northwest area. We didn't have a school up here at the time. And I went from Harrison, then they opened up Loudon, which was on Loudon Avenue. I went back to Loudon for my 6th and 7th grade then I went back to Harrison for my 8th grade. Then I went to Addison for the 9th grade and then they built the new one which is now on Orange Avenue. I went over there and graduated and I also went to MCV for 2 years in Richmond, Virginia. PY: Do you have good memories? SS: Very fond memories. During that time, we had a lot of elderly people, 'cause I'm elderly now myself. (Both laughing) Some people consider me elderly but I don't. During that time, the lady that raised me, she did not have – she had a car but it wasn't used to transport grocery so within a radius from 15th to 16th Street down to Norfolk Avenue and 9th Street, I hand delivered most of the stuff when I was a girl. So, I met a lot of people and a lot of people that I carried and delivered groceries to were elderly. So, I grew up really liking and having a real love in my heart for the elderly and I enjoy talking to them and I learned a lot about life. PY: I bet they had a lot of good stories to tell. SS: They did. A lot of good stories. A lot of good stories. Some of them, during that time, I guess I was 10, 11, or 12, some were 80, 90 years old and they still had all their factors. Therefore, I learned a lot about what happened a long time ago. 'Cause I grew up in some of that myself. (Chuckle) PY: Um, describe your home life. You sort of did a bit but - . SS: My home life was based on business, a grocery store. Um, everything centered around the store because during that time, I don't think the Blue Law was in effect but it was for a while where you weren't allowed to sell groceries on Sunday. However, if someone needed a loaf of bread, we would sneak them a loaf a bread. However, I grew up in the back of the grocery store – did not have a living �room. I wanted a living room so bad when I was kid so my company, my friends, could come there and sit. However, we sat in the grocery store. She was open from 6 am in the morning to 11:30 at night. Um, I had a little small bedroom to the left and her bedroom was right there, right in the back of the store. She had a big old chair. She sat there and a big old potbellied stove. We had a kitchen and a bathroom. I mostly, when I got up in the morning, I went to school. When I came back at 3 o'clock, the girl who worked in the store, she got off. And then, when – I'm getting ahead of myself – when I was real small, I used to give a penny, they had an apple or orange or whatever and I had a – she had a big old stool there and I would stand up to get the food off the shelves and I would carry her the money. She would make the change and I would bring it back to the people. As I became older, I just about took the grocery store over when I was out of school. And, in the evening, when I came home, I would change my clothes, 'cause everybody wanted to make sure you had brown and white saddle-locks with (??). We kept our shoes shined in those days. (Laughing) And I would get my books, sit behind the counter and study my lesson and wait on the customers as they came in until about 11 o'clock and then we closed up. And you didn't have to lock – we didn't even lock the grocery store up although she had plenty of money there. Half the time, we left the grocery store doors open and nobody never broke in or tried to harm anyone. And then, we had one of those slide latches on the side door – we used to put an ice pick in it (laughing). I have very fond memories. Miss Irene, the lady who raised me, Ms. Irene Houb (??). she was not a hero. No one never knew her but she was my hero. 0.06.24.3 PY: Did she grow up here also? SS: Um, no. She migrated – she came here from Farmville, Virginia, at a very young age apparently around 30 she got infantile paralysis, the same thing that Franklin – she always said that she and Franklin Roosevelt had the same type of illness. And I was 3 years old. In fact, her son used to date my mother and that's how I got to know her and I went to stay one night and ended up staying the rest of my life there, my young life there. (Laughing) PY: Very interesting. Um, so people would come and visit in the store? SS: Yes. And on Sunday, on Sunday was a very special day because most of the people leave the church, come by and get a Coca-Cola and (laughing) a 5 cents cake or something. Everybody congregated there even during that time, you know, with segregation but a lot of the salesmen who were white and all of us congregated in the store. Mama might call them a name and they may call her a name but it was all in love and joking and we got along real well. And I don't know too much about prejudice because I always grew up around a lot of whites and a lot of blacks living in an environment of business, the grocery store. And all the insurance agents and the mailmen would come by and stay for lunch and she was an excellent cook, didn't use any recipes. They would come back and say, “Alright Miss Irene, or Irene, what you got cooked today?” and she would have maybe some beans and cornbread or sometimes she'd do something special, string beans and a beef roast and hot rolls which she made and they would rise about 5 or 6 inches high. She was known for her cooking and sweet potato pies and pound cakes that she would bake – she would make with a wooden spoon and a bowl and I don't know how she did it. (Laughing) She would take and sit there in the chair – You know when people lose their lower extremities, the upper extremities become twice as strong so she could sit there and she was happy. She did not see her handicap as – She didn't let it handicap her. She was a very active, motivated person. 0.08.42.5 PY: You talked about delivering groceries around, and, um, do you remember any of the stories the older people told you about? SS: During that time, they talked a lot about how – yes, I do remember some – how that on Christmastime that they didn't have money for gifts. If they got an orange and a candy stick, that was nice, that was Christmas. And how they walked miles to church and they would take their shoes off because of the red dirt and put them on when they got to church. And, um, they talked a lot about how �they raising hogs and killing hogs and cows and milking the cows and how they would store the milk down in the spring and they talked a lot about – You know what? In spite of the times, there still was a lot of love and a lot of laughter. They weren't bitter. They weren't bitter like people are, a lot of people are now, weren't angry and there was a lot of humility. They talked a lot about their spirituality, about God and they focused on education. “You need to get an education”. We called them illiterate but they were very smart people, they had a lot of mother wit (??). And, uh, I miss the – right now I live in Northwest area but I miss – I often snicker thinking about how neighborly they were, like a family. If one was sick, everybody was sick. And how certain families would come in and help you when somebody was sick with no charge. I often think about – I always go back to Miss Irene Houb (??) how she had a grocery store and sometimes, people laid off from work, couldn't get work and she would fix them a grocery box and just give 'em. And how blessed she was and she could've been real rich but she was such a giving person and, uh, make me cry. (Laughing) (A little emotional) I often think how she raised me. During that time, we didn't even have the dasher-type washing machine, how she would get in there and soak my clothes and then wash 'em. They would be snow white and iron 'em on up on just - She could afford and ironing board, she just never bought one - on an old like bench and how I've seen her get in a wheelchair and - the store was real long. It wasn't very wide, real long and I've seen her take that lye soap that sometimes people in the neighborhood made and gave her and scrubbed the floors until they were white in a wheelchair! And how she would cook and make all these rolls and I would get up on the shelf and get her yeast and get her milk or whatever she needed and I myself am a pretty good cook too and I think it all came back. Because she didn't measure. People said, “Well how do fix your sweet potato pie Sarah?” They want the recipe. There is no recipe. You just do it by – I try to sort of fake a recipe but I didn't need one because I just watched her. You washed your hands real clean and scrub 'em with a brush. Nobody wore nail polish too much during that time and you put a little here and put it in there. I had a real good childhood. Although, my mother, my biological mother was living. She left me and went to Boston but I was in the best place for me. That was God because I was in a good place for me. Now, I didn't meet my father until – This is not about me, its about Southwest (Laughing) – I didn't meet my dad until I was 50 years old. 0.12.45.3 PY: Had he been in Roanoke? SS: I didn't know him. I didn't know who he was until I was 50 years old. I wasn't raised with much family but I have 7 children of my own and I'm a widow twice and I have manged to survive and give my kids a good life. And, uh, through what Miss Irene instilled in me and the older people in the neighborhood where I grew up. PY: Very good. Do you have any other stories you'd like to - ? SS: Oh, let me see. PY: Did you keep the grocery store? How long did you - ? SS: Being so immature in my life, I let it go when I should've hung on to it. I made some bad choices with relationships myself. I was looking for love in all the wrong places. But, I'm OK. (Laughing) Um, what other stories can I tell you? (Pause) (1st dictation ends) SS: As the old proverb go, “It takes a neighborhood to raise a child”. This church was here. This was the largest church. It still is in Southwest. And school, because my school was across the bridge and everybody – a child in a neighborhood was everybody's concern. I remember I used to, when I, you couldn't date until you was at least 16, 17, and the lady that raised me was very strict and during that time, I don't think I had but maybe 2 friends in school that got pregnant in all my 12 years. Because your greatest fear was having a child because that was really a disgrace (Laughing) during those days. And, um, I used to like to hold hands or I used to like to neck on the corners (Laughing). But, I remember one time, this man who was a friend of the lady who raised me came in everyday for a CocaCola, he saw me kiss this little boy and I was so afraid that he was going to tell it but he didn't but he �talked to me about it which I thought was real good. And everybody's concern – You could correct somebody else's child and it was OK. We were there for each other and I just thank God for the type of neighborhood and the relationship we had. I think it really helped me to be a better person. We didn't have very many professional people. Miss Golden was the only school teacher up here and that was considered, “Oh, she was just so smart” (Laughing) because most everybody was just laborers, common working people. You had some people on Social Services but everybody worked hard. A lot of the mothers would stay at home and those that stayed at home sort of looked after the kids. And I was blessed because during that time, Miss Irene, she couldn't walk, and we was in the grocery store, somebody was always home with me. I didn't go home to an empty house. And, uh, almost all my girlfriends, their mothers were at home. No one was out. The only night that you could stay out until after dark was Halloween and we all looked forward to Halloween. You could stay out a little bit that night. And I remember the playground, I can't think of its name. Anyway, there was a playground over here on 10th and Salem Avenue and we would go over there and have the sac races on Halloween and, I don't know what you call it when you have apples in tubs and you take your mouth and try to get them out 0.02.42.6 (Part 2) PY: Bobbing for apples. SS: Yeah. (Laughing heartily) And we had a lot of games and stuff going over there for the kids in our neighborhood and everybody looked forward to Halloween because other than that, the girls mostly had to stay at home. Um, also, Garst Brothers Dairy was right over here on Salem Avenue between 10th and 11th Street and that was a treat to go over there and get you some ice cream. Another thing we did on Sunday, the trolley, streetcar we called it, it ran on Patterson Avenue and we'd get in it and ride all the way around to Raleigh Court and ride all the way back. Going downtown, window shopping was something we did on Sunday evening just to look in the windows because during that time, there wasn't all this thievery so everybody could go down and just enjoy yourself looking in the windows, the simple things in life. And, of course, at this church, we had the Y teams. We had the Girl Scouts, the Brownies and Bible School lasted, like most churches have it for a week now for 2 or 3 hours, it was 2 weeks from 9 to 3 and some of the ladies here could sew and they taught us how to make skirts and do a lot of things and then we had BPYU on Sunday afternoon which was for Christian youth and we'd go out there and meet and have bible study and have activities. So, it really did take a community to raise a child and all of us grew up happy, no fights, no nothing. Everybody lived peacefully. (Chuckling) (End of Part 2, beginning of Part 3) PY: What's your fondest childhood memory? SS: (Pause) My fondest childhood memory really is......being with the lady that raised me, helping her cook, working in the grocery store and greeting people as they came in. PY: What's your most favorite gift you've received? (Long Pause) SS: As a child? PY: Yeah. SS: A birthstone ring. (Laughing) When I was about 8. It was a ruby. I was born in July. (Laughing) PY: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? SS: I've been a nurse all my life. I worked at Burrell Hospital for about 10 years. I worked at TAP for about 5 with the children. I've been with Blueridge Baby Healthcare for 35 years. I'm still working part-time. I work with substance abuse and mentally ill in dual-diagnosed people. PY: Who were your – you've talked about your role models – How has Roanoke changed over the years? SS: Mmm! (Long pause) Well, from my perspective, its gotten colder. Or maybe I've gotten so busy, I really haven't taken the time. I think its gotten colder. Um, with integration, we are supposed to submerge and be one, that's what its all about. But I think we've lost a lot of our culture and the things �that we've believed in as black people. I don't necessarily blame anyone for that. We've gotten so materialistic and the fathers are out of the home. We have lowered our moral – we haven't been good mentors for our children. We have – Our children in our neighborhood has not been a priority for us. I don't blame it on integration, I just blame it on the times and I know – I go back to the prom, when I was a senior. Oh, I looked forward to the prom. I had such a good time. And now, you almost have to beat kids to get 'em to go. I think they do too much, too soon. I think my mother still, Miss Irene (Laughing) had me to come home at 12 and that was late for me. And, uh, you know, I felt like she loved me and she didn't have to raise me. I didn't come off her income taxes. I didn't come off anything. But, she loved me and I felt like she took me because she loved me. She didn't have to keep me. She did. And as a kid, I was always very obedient. I never got a whipping as a kid. Never got a spanking because I knew she was in a wheelchair and I feel like – I was going to do everything I could to make her happy. When I was 12 years old, and she had a big old Packard car and she would go downtown to the market and get all these eggs and stuff and bring 'em back to the store, I would clean up and try to do things to make her happy. Kids don't do that anymore and I don't blame the kids, its just the way they're raised. As parents, we have to screen our kids playmates at a very young age and don't you think because “Mary's running around with Jane but Jane is having sex and smoking but my child's not” - Birds of a feather definitely flock together. And then you need to go back to the neighborhood whereas if you see my kid doing something, you can correct him. You can call me and you won't get cursed out. We just changed our values and everybody's so angry and the fathers are out of the home. Fathers back then were doing some of the same things that they're doing now I guess (Laughing) but if they did, they did it discreetly. It wasn't blatant and out and nobody knew anything about it. And then I think girls being able to go the Health Department and get birth control. I guess they're going to do it anyway but we've got to start when they're young, teaching 'em right from wrong. And don't be so desperate for the attention that you're willing to just go ahead on and let it all go. We've got to start somewhere and if one child's in trouble, regardless of race, color or creed, all kids are in trouble. Its not a white issue or a black issue or a Mexican issue, its a human issue. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2695/ShowalterSarah_[compressed].mp3 91a176022480fe33f9fb4f327e6e285a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Sarah Showalter Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Sarah Showalter Interviewer: Pam Young Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 23:14 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sarah Hodge Showalter; Pam Young; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShowalterSarah https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2694/PhanelsonBRay_[compressed].mp3 748204fc6c325279956ae6796f17fa29 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2694/phanelson.B.Ray.2008.pdf 2424bd70fd8924e55add4653aa9895ff PDF Text Text Interviewee: B. Ray Phanelson Interviewer: Pam Young Transcriber: Andrew Sterling This is Pam Young. Today is February 23, 2008. I am interviewing Baby Ray Phanelson here at Jerusalem Baptist Church. PY: When were you born? BP: July 27, 1945. PY: And you were born in Roanoke? BP: Roanoke. Berrill Memorial Hospital. PY: And how long have you lived in Roanoke? All your life? BP: Except for a few years in San Francisco. All my life, yeah. PY: And what neighborhoods have you lived in? BP: When I was born, I was living at 12 ½ Street. I moved to my paternal grandmother's house on 14th Street, across the street from my maternal grandmother and father where I live now. And from there, after my mother remarried, we moved to Grayson Avenue NW. PY: Tell me about your parents and brothers and sisters. BP: My father, Baby Ray Senior, my mother, Annie Laura Davis Phanelson Enoch. I had a set of twin brothers. One was accidentally killed by his best friend on 11th Street NW. The other died of Agent Orange complications. So I am the only child left. I have 4 step-sisters, 4 girls. My, let's see, like I say, I lived on 14th Street. It was like a family affair. My uncle, my mother's brother, lived next door, Othur Davis. That's him up there. And my uncle and aunt lived next door. My mother's mother and father lived across the street. Her sister was still at A&T so I guess she essentially lived there also and was the first secretary at Hurt Park. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, was also the first president of the - What is it? What's the club that supports the school? - Parent Teachers Association. And my paternal grandmother with whom I was living then was Elder Ester Phanelson who was probably one of – She was the only female on the Minister's Association in the city and she was secretary of it. She was Minister of Mount Sinai Presbyterian Church which was right at the end of 10th Street Bridge. Its now at Salem Avenue and 14th Street and pastored by her daughter. On that side of the family, there were several ministers, one in Norfolk. They were my grandmother's daughters – And the one in Washington – Well, I guess there were two (laughing). When I lived at 12 ½ Street, my Uncle Cecil lived, we lived in a duplex. My father's brother lived next door with his family. My grandfather just died in 2000 at 97. His wife, Elizabeth Favors died – I'm not for sure but it was at least 10 years or more before, maybe 15 years before. Let's see PY: Do you have any happy memories growing up? Any BP: I have nothing but happy memories. I was PY: Where did you go to school? BP: I went to Loudon Elementary, Harrison and Addison. If I'm not mistaken, I was the last segregated class to graduate from Addison. I don't remember any bad times. I am a musician. PY: Do you have any favorite teachers that you remember? BP: Oh yeah. I think my 1st grade teacher, Miss Morris, was – I felt like she cared too much for us. (laughing) So that reinforced my being spoiled I guess. I had a sister that was born before me so I see how – and she died of SIDS. So when I was born, as I look back on it now, I sort of see how I was probably spoiled a little bit even after the twins _______ (??) did a very good job. But Miss Morris was a very sweet lady. I remember her as being – I would be excited about going to school because all we did was play as I remember. (laughing) She also sent me to Addison, the high school, to sing a solo I remember. I was singing, I guess, before then. I remember that because my babysitter who also lived on the same street at 12 ½ Street, was in high school and she had to assure me that these people weren't �going to eat me. Loudon Avenue – I've always had a great affection for women of that, I don't know what it is – My grandmother was a tall slender full-figured woman and a perfectionist at keeping house and cooking. I mean she was, without getting a hair out of place, get it all done. And that's how I remember Miss Wheaton who later remarried and became Mrs. Buryl (??) and I was so upset about that that she lived down the street on Grayson and I was in high school but I came by her house. She was sitting on the porch one day and there were tears in my eyes and I said, “I just can't call you Mrs. Buryl”. (laughing heartily) So she said OK. I really cared for her. She had taught my father also and she was a member of Jerusalem before she transferred to First Baptist, no, High Street, I'm sorry. I guess, I can't think right off, so I guess they really didn't – That's 1st grade. I'd known Miss Wheaton all my life. There were other teachers that I admired but I was not close with. I PY: OK. How about, describe the house you grew up in. BP: Well, 12 ½ Street where I was living when I was born. I remember being bathed in the sink. Some people question that but I can just see myself now laying, looking out the window, just enjoying being rubbed and playing in warm water. That was a duplex. I lived next door to my Uncle Cecil who even at his funeral people were – His father was – I can't think of it, Indian blood – Its a Florida tribe 0.09.48.2 PY: Like Iroquois or BP: No. Anyway, even at his funeral, people were saying that was one handsome man. And at his son's funeral which was about 5 years ago, they were saying the same thing. He lived next door and when my parents – Was it before? - Oh, my mother and father and my brothers and I moved to 14th Street to live with his mother and she was Pentecostal. So, once a week, there was a great noise in her parlor. We eventually – My mother and father divorced and – First, my grandmother moved and we had the whole house and then my mother and father divorced. And my aunt divided the house into a duplex and we lived there. My mother remarried a widower with 4 daughters and up until that time, as I was saying, my grandmother and grandfather were living across the street. I remember my uncle lived next door. He did move to Danville in the later time that we was there. Then we moved to Grayson and that was a – Let's see, I think we had 1, 2, 3 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, a kitchen and a living room and 7 kids and yet, I still, to this day, that's why I was dumbfounded when someone at work once said, “You left the toilet seat up”. I said, “What did you do, back in with your eyes closed?” I've never understood it. I've never understood it. Like, I was always told to lift the seat and you'd think I would be doing a service (laughing heartily). I never understood and refuse to because it makes no sense to me. Now it seems as though the fewer people there, the bigger the house gets. We have a full living area and kitchen downstairs, extra bathroom. My younger sister lives there now with her daughter. Her son just went to college and her daughter's two kids. I guess they have a little bit more space. PY: What did your family do for a living? BP: My father worked for Norfolk and Western. He was being trained as one of – to be an engineer, to drive but he died of complications from alcohol. My mother was a domestic. She worked for the Schwartz family for several years. She eventually – When she remarried, she went to Veterans. I remember her, she started in the kitchen washing pots and pans on a split shift. She retired as manager in the dietetics. So that shows you how industrious that side, my mother's side, of the family and my father's side, not as consistently. My step-father worked at Valley Cadillac and Oldsmobile all his life. He was known as “Mr. Cadillac”. People would come into town from - usually on business trips or whatever, once a year, twice a year. They would always call him for extra work. When he died, I think there must've been 7 or 8 Cadillacs donated to the family for use. My grandfather never stopped working. I think he fell off his garage roof at 87 after – because he wanted to fix the roof. But he didn't hurt himself. He was a strong man. My grandmother worked for the Koefer (??) family. Her grandfather worked for Koefer Industries. I think they eventually changed the name or merged or sold the business or whatever. But that was about his 3rd job. He also worked at the mill. He retired from there. He retired from Koefer. �PY: Viscos? (??) BP: Yeah, uh huh. PY: Do you remember that at all when he worked there or was that - ? BP: Yes. I wasn't aware of where he was working but he had a friend who had a farm out near 419, in that area when it was still residential. We used to get whole milk from – I remember making butter and hating when the cows got in the clover. So he was working there then and would give us whole milk. And even today, I love milk but pasteurized milk is just a side of water to me. For a domestic, I have to say that because of my grandmother's insisting everything being done exactly right, of being a perfectionist, and my grandfather's steady, constant working. He only bought 2 new cars, '72 or '71 Chrysler New Yorkers are the only cars he ever bought. Up to that point, he always bought Chrysler New Yorkers that were 2 years or 3 years older. He always paid cash and didn't understand when I bought my brand new, the only new car I've ever had, '72 Volkswagon convertible. He came out on the porch and said, “Where is it?” He said, “That's not a car, that's a lawnmower.” (laughing) And he asked me how much it cost and I told him and - “If you can't afford to pay cash for it, you can't afford it”. My grandmother, even though she was a domestic, once showed me a closet full of dresses. She said, “Every one of them dresses cost $500”. They were industrious, you know, like I say, she'd bake pies. I mean she'd get up Saturday morning and she would have – I can't say how many sweet potato, coconut cakes. She was a member of Jerusalem also. Poppa was an usher. I called 'em Poppa and Momma. It's really strange that even when my mother and she were in the same room, I don't know how they could tell, inflections or what, but I could say “Momma” and the right woman would answer each time. Same with my brothers. My mother's sister also was – She worked as – She graduated from A&T in North Carolina, Greensboro, and she worked there for several years as a secretary. She was the first secretary at Hurt Park School and died at I think in her early 40s from complications from Sickle Cell. My uncle, who lived next door, was not quite as industrious but he worked for an insurance company here in Roanoke and then he continued that and worked for a factory in the Danville area. PY: Let's see. What, um, were there any family stories that were passed down from generation to generation that you remember? BP: Probably but I don't if I can remember them now. I can say that I did meet my grandfather's mother. I remember her who was I think had been a slave or her parents were slaves. I know her parents were slaves. But she was about 100 then and in that same area, that's the Lumberton/St. Paul area of North Carolina. I once met a lady that my grandfather, who didn't show a lot of emotion all his life. He missed his wife. He and I lived alone at the house on 14th Street for a while and frequently I would pass him and he would have a tear or two on his cheek and once he told me. He said, “You've never been married, you'd never understand.” She'd been dead for at least 10 years by then at that time. I met his mother. And once we were in North Carolina, he said he wanted to go by to see this lady. He was probably in his early 80s. The lady was - 116 keeps coming to mind but I'm not sure. Her daughter was 72. She had sent her daughter to the store. Her daughter came back and as I watched them exchange money and whatever, _______ was like a child. And shortly afterwards – or she also didn't know that my grandmother had died then. She also didn't know that my grandmother had died. She said, “Now Walter, I'm sorry to hear about Elizabeth”. And shortly after, she said, “I'm sorry but y'all have to go. Its time for me to go to bed.” It was like 7:30/8:00. But she was an old woman but she was still kicking. Well, PY: And you said you were in the military too? BP: I was in the Air Force, yes. I was stationed at Missouri and went to Vietnam - in Saigon. 0.22.32.4 PY: Were you drafted? BP: No, I volunteered for the Air Force. I volunteered to go to Vietnam. Not out of any patriotism. It was just the thing that everybody did at my base. It was investigated several times because everybody wanted to get out, even if it meant going to Vietnam because of being in the Air Force and having being �in SAC, Strategic Air Command. It was a dual commitment. One had to be aware that if an investigation or an inspection came, of who was giving the inspection because the answers could be totally different. The response could be totally different. We had Minute Man Missiles. In fact, I was never around airplanes until I got to Vietnam. I was in Saigon in Vietnam. I enjoyed that too. In fact, basically, I enjoy most of what I do. And I enjoy doing nothing. (laughing) PY: What do you do now? BP: Nothing. (laughing heartily) I'm on Social Security Disability and I haven't been driving for the last year so I'd like to get back to my singing. I used to sing with the symphony choir. I've sung here. I've always sung. But one needs transportation to get to rehearsals and things. I sang consistently at Second Presbyterian for a while. That was one of my favorites. I also sang at St. Andrew. In fact, I was a member of the First Processing Choir at St. Andrew. My roommate was the choir director. I'm a member of Christ Episcopal. I used to sing there. The organist and I don't have a clear view of what really is music – The same view of what music is. So I don't. And that's hard for me because I joined the Episcopal Church when I was in San Francisco and 90% of why I joined was – That particular denomination was because of their respect for music. Although its not a guitar type thing with him its French. And although I'm not anywhere near an authority on music, I really – I love organ music, pipe organ music. And he loves French pipe organ and like I say, I'm the first to tell you I know very little. I just know what I like to hear and which means his French and his improvisations – I mean I'm learning the whole time I'm listening so don't improvise on me and call it music. (laughing) I knew well enough when he was throwing in improvisations and I don't need to hear that. 0.26.47.3 PY: Let's see. Do you have any fond memories of childhood or favorite holiday event or any thing like -? BP: Well, every traditional family holiday – Like I say, my grandmother was a perfectionist so we have to this day family meals on Sunday at my sister's house every Sunday. Its like a holiday as far as meals go. Christmas, Thanksgiving, as much as in the teens to 20 people, mostly family I guess you could say and neighbors, on 14th Street. It bordered on being common except for visually it was so spectacular and tasty. I even remember a disappointing thing when at some point my grandmother or someone suggested that we spread out the one Thanksgiving at one – Christmas at my grandmother's house, Thanksgiving at her sister's house in Northwest and I think once or twice my Uncle Othur and his wife who was way down on the cooking scale but everybody contributed but – That was sort of like a disappointment. But holidays, yes, I remember them as being big family affairs. PY: Since you're into music, do you remember any entertainers that came to perform and seeing them? BP: Well, as my brothers used to say, they ran the streets and I ran the alleys. As far as Henry Street goes, I know very little about it. I was not – My music was not – My music was my life and there was very little of interest to me on Henry Street. So as far as entertainers coming, Mahalia Jackson came and although I didn't get to see her. Little Richard came. I didn't want to see him. So, any traditional – I can't think of anyone else – BB King came and I took my aunt, my grandmother's sister to see him because she was into blues and she was a pretty good sized woman and was very nice. I had that '72 Volkswagon convertible and we would run all around town. (laughing) I took her to see BB King. Oh! At Roanoke College, I saw this A Capella male group – Can't come up with the name now but that was really, really – I really enjoyed that. I think I saw them twice, I'm not sure. Jeff Sanborg is head of Music at Roanoke College. He's also the Director of Choir, Second Pres. His wife is the organist. They were a great influence on me as far as it was a period of being relaxed and I'm constantly learning. I told him – I was taking voice lessons from him for a while and I stopped. I said, “I get enough in rehearsals”. (laughing) I can't think of the name of that group. It was really, really, - I think it was about 6 guys and the harmony was so close and it was beautiful. 0.31.37.8 PY: How do you see that Roanoke has changed over the years? �BP: Just recently, it seems that it might be coming out of a coma as far as growing. It wasn't a part of me to think so much about segregation and whatever but I think to spite itself, it just set around and did nothing when it could've grown if it had – even after integration if it had just truly from the heart did it. Violence is much worse. I remember when we lived on Grayson. Frequently – Well it was - What we did was we'd leave church here in Northwest and walk across the 10th Street bridge after service if we wanted to or we waited and caught a ride with her parents. But the door was always open, at least unlocked. And if it was accidentally locked, that was a very disturbing thing. The lack of – To me it sound like an old person 'cause I heard it when I was young – the lack of basic respect even within my own family now 'cause some of the kids - its just unbelievable. I have – One of my step-sisters, well, her daughter. She only has one but she has 3 daughters. They all live with my step-sister. She lost her house recently. Just common decency of “Good Morning”. In fact, in the last month, I have stopped saying “Good Morning” first and only one of them, infrequently, will say “hi” when we first come in contact with each other and that just bugs me. But, this apple never separated from the tree 'cause the momma is barely much better and she's always lived with her mother so I guess that's one box of apples that will probably be like that all along but I find that even other people's kids, depending on if they've had any raisin'. In general, I find kids and young adults to be rude and parents indulgent and I think it has contributed a lot to the violence and the – In general, I've recently been riding the bus to get from Veterans as usually my sister takes me and just the people on the street – on the buses. I used to love to ride the bus in San Francisco because usually people either ignored you or something interesting was happening. Here, its just boring because its usually something dis-interesting that was being forced on you because they were talking so loud or cell phones or whatever. PY: Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you'd like to talk about? BP: Probably. (laughing) Probably. I guess I could say that when I was in high school, I was part of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee in cahoots with some kids from Hollins and, at the time of the organization forming, I was the only black so they made me president. (laughing) I'll never forget. We went downtown across from Patrick Henry. You know that little restaurant that they closed on the corner. And we didn't expect to get served. So we sat down and we ordered hot dogs 'cause we didn't have any money. They went to serve us and one of the girls had to go to the bank and get some money. But, that was, I think that was my senior year or junior year. PY: Do you remember the name of the restaurant? BP: Mm mm. I think it was the Downtowner. You know where the motel - ? PY: Yeah. BP: I remember sitting right up front. We made the paper a few times. Glad they didn't put in that we didn't have any money. (laughing) I remember asking my mother, “Why do they call these people white?”. I don't remember the answer being satisfactory but I said, “That's not white to me.” That was my perception. This is white and that's not white. I wasn't into much of anything but music. And I really can't – Other than the fact that my – the musician here, Miss Woodson, Evelyn Woodson, who used to live across the street, was a traditional musician. She played music. No improvisation. Jimmy Cook took Music from her. I did. I took piano but I'm a perfect example of no talent at the keyboard. However, I absorb music well and they say I can sing. But I never had a conscious awareness of – Like I said, I graduated from high school, I had already been singing all my life - of being with white musicians or non-white musicians or entering into a group like that. Yet, after high school and college, the little bit that I was there, the music that I enjoy has been generally and traditionally white churches. I haven't had any problem except for St. Andrew. I did have a priest meet me as we were going, I was going – coming around the building. He approached us from the front of the church and I ran into him coming around the building and he said, “Why do you come here?” I'm in my choir robe so even though he wasn't the head priest and he was, I think, Filipino or something like that. “Why do you come here? St Gerard's is right down the street.” I said, “I'm not Catholic, I'm Baptist.” He said, “Why do you come here?” I said, “To sing in the choir”. And it took me a while after that �conversation to realize that was racist. At first, I was thinking – Well I sort of thought of it as racist but I didn't have a great platform. Because, when I was in high school at Addison, we were the best at everything. Most of the teaching staff had Master's, more than any other school in the city. The football team was undefeated 5 years. The choir was notoriously the best in the city and one of the best in the state. I was nominated and won 2nd, of course, it was in the black groupings, best supporting actor for my – in my senior year in drama. So, I guess I assumed we were doing the best we could and that was really good. (laughing) I may have stretched myself with the symphony choir but I got some solo action out of it. Sanborg was director of that at the time and yet, he accepted me in his church choir which is a smaller, more compact group, I guess so he can keep more control over me. Also, I did a musical with - I can't think of it - “HMS Pinafore” with the Showtimers. And yet, so, racially, I really don't care because if I can't perform or be my best worrying about what you gonna think about me – so I let you worry about me and I'll just go ahead and do what I gotta do. I had, at Christ's Church, there was a bass who I knew was racist. In fact, I had seen him on the street – My mother had taken her car to Valley Cadillac for whatever reason, and in a small waiting room, he wouldn't speak. And actually the hurt was not my feelings, I felt sorry for him. He died later and that's what I always felt would happen to racists anyway but they keep breeding. (laughing) Another reason that its not on one side or in one race, people generally, even within their own races have low opinions of people. In fact, my grandmother, although I found it amusing and nothing anybody could do about it, was – there were few things she tolerated and if they couldn't help it, it was their business. I always heard her on the telephone. She was a great gossip. There was my grandmother, Grace Reynolds, who also sang in the choir here with her and lived on our street, and a lady named Miss Vice(??), I can't think of her first name on my street. We, as kids, knew that if one of them didn't know about it, it didn't happen. But I heard my grandmother say on the phone once, “Well, if she didn't want it talked about, she shouldn't have done it”. And she meant it. And she'd have told the woman that. As long as she was right, it didn't matter where she told it. (laughing) And actually, as I think about it now, she was very pleasant but to say that she was “kind” – I wouldn't put “kind”, I wouldn't put a word like that. She was very pleasant and very social. My grandfather once asked me, my roommate was white, “I don't understand”. Yet, he never mentioned racist things. He said, “I don't understand where you get this love for white folks”. But it really didn't matter to me. My grandmother never mentioned it because, “If I got $500 dresses, I don't need you anyway”. (laughing) But she was beautiful. I can't describe her. She was tall. You remember the days when the women had these big fur and then there was just a straight coat. The first time I saw her in that, I thought it was just – because she was so tall and she didn't look like a bear walking down the street or something like that. She was, um, gentle, none of that comes. I don't know. (laughing) I don't know what I can say but she was a great woman in the city. According to my grandfather, she had our street, 14th Street, she was the first one to request pavement. It was one of the first streets as I understand, off-streets, side-streets in Southwest that was paved and my grandfather had, since we were talking about the race thing a little bit, I was saying that he brought his Chryslers usually 2 years old. Well, it took me – my stepfather took me to college in his '56 Chrysler and some I've known all my life – Oh course, we used to go to Peaks of Otter for picnics and things, 4th of July and something like that, again, a great family affair. We had family that would come from New York to go with us to Peaks of Otter. But we all knew that we had to tiptoe through Bedford and, sure enough, we were pulled over. Said the steering was loose and my stepfather said – that we were weaving – but my stepfather said he did check it when we came back and there was some looseness in the steering. We never assumed that's what it was. My grandfather, he said he used to be stopped all the time because, like I say, he always had a semi-new car and a big one at that and he smoked cigars. He was as dark as they came. So I guess he was the traditional nigger driving a big car on a side street. He said that he would frequently get stopped. In fact, he paid a fine for me when I came from California. I was very good at a California roll at a corner. I rarely slowed up. I slowed up but I rarely stopped. After about the 3rd or 4th ticket and I had beat 'em all. My grandfather said, “Naw, �boy, they're gonna get your name down there and they're gonna be all over you”. So he made me promise to slow up. But I don't know where I was – I just roamed there for a moment. I think the ego kicked in and I realized I hadn't talked about myself enough. (laughing) But I think that's about it and I understand if we get more information, we could come down. [Recording ends] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with B. Ray Phanelson Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with B. Ray Phanelson Interviewer: Pam Young Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 49:09 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource B. Ray Phanelson; Pam Young; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PhanelsonBRay https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2693/PerryShirley_[compressed].mp3 a2669fcf7e3b624ec4c434f8f4709f9b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Shirley Perry Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Shirley Perry Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 24:51 Transcription prepared by: Catherine Jessee Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shirley Bennett Perry; Alicia Sell; Catherine Jessee Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PerryShirley https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2692/PerryGilmore_[compressed].mp3 55240dc8147e5d4cd6e5457f29705d53 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2692/perry.Gilmore.2008.pdf b876b4d0dc335fd6b3f278764b6eed8d PDF Text Text Interviewee: Gilmore Perry & Lawrence Mitchell Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is February 23, 2008. I am interviewing Gilmore Perry, Jr. And also I am interviewing Lawrence William Mitchell. We are at Jerusalem Baptist Church. CR: I guess I'd like to ask first where and when were you born? GP: I was born September 7, 1940, on Norfolk Avenue, 916. CR: And you sir? LM: July 1, 1939. CR: And how long have you both lived in Roanoke? And possibly what streets and neighborhoods did you live in? GP: I lived in Roanoke from 1940 to 1958 after which I went off to college and returned about 3 years ago. CR: And you Mr. Williams? GP: I lived ________ (??) during that particular time after college. CR: And Mr. Mitchell, how long have you lived in Roanoke? LM: I was born where there used to be apartment buildings ____________. I was born right there, I lived there I guess about 15 years. Then we bought a house across the street over here. I lived there about another 3 years until I finished high school. I graduated I think it June 8, 1950. One of those days, __________________. I finished school. Do you want to know where I worked at __________________________? CR: Sure. LM: When I was in the 12th grade, I was working at Sears and Roebuck putting on tires and seat covers and batteries from 5 to 9, 5 days a week and on Saturday all day which I guess is about 28 hours a week I guess, working part-time. I worked there until about, for about 3-4 months. When I left there, I went to the Catawba Sanatorium. You've heard of Catawba Hospital up there on the mountain. CR: Yes sir. LM: I worked up there for about 6 months 'til the day I went into the Army. CR: OK. LM: I went into the Army Wednesday, March 31, 1959. That's when I went into the service. I was in there for 2 years, came back here and stayed 45 days – Left here and went to Philadelphia. My sister hooked me up with a job up there in a factory, pressing brand new suits. I didn't like that. Stayed there about 2 weeks and left there and went to _____ (??), New Jersey. I have relatives over there, cousins and then I was doing construction work. I worked there I guess about 2 years. Then I left construction and went to a pharmaceutical place where they made cosmetics and pharmaceutical products. I worked there for 8 ½ years. Then I went to a dye factory. I left the other job after 8 ½ years. I like to supervise so I went to this dye place and I worked there about 2 years. Then they laid the whole third shift off and then I just came on back home. And my brother had a club called Buck's Playboy Club. He called me up. CR: Where was that? LM: 1113 Center Avenue. Its still standing. Its a daycare center now. He got a daycare center now. And then for a while, I got a job on the railroad. That job kept laying off so much. So I left there. Of course, I had several jobs after there but that's the only two – the City of Roanoke after that. I started working for the City of Roanoke. I was there for 22 years and 10 months until I was 62. I was about 38 or 40 days from being 62. So I stayed there until I retired and I've been here ever since. But I was in Jersey though for 13 ½ years before I came back here. Army 2 years. CR: So do you have family still living here? �GP: Yes, I still have nieces and nephews and uncles and aunts that still reside in Roanoke. CR: In this area? GP In this area. Well, not in the West-end section but in Northwest primarily, North County. CR: Can y'all tell me a little bit about your education or your school life here in Roanoke? LM: I didn't go to college but while I was in high school, I took 2 years of carpentry in 9th and 10th grade. 2 years of mechanics in 11th and 12th . I learned ______ since I've been back here and I did plumbing, brick laying – I had brick laying in junior high school. You remember that? GP: Yes. LM: _______ teaching me. _________ CR: What school did you go to? LM: Booker T. Washington. First I went to Harrison. I went to Harrison for about 4 years and Loudon was all white and then you had your black. So I went there from 4th to 6th grade. Then they opened up old Addison. They named it Booker T. Washington. We were the first blacks to go in there as a junior high school. You remember that don't you? GP: Yes. LM: So when they opened the new Addison, then the old Addison was made into a junior high which is an administration building now. CR: Same for you? GP: Well what I can remember during that time, we didn't have school buses for one thing. And we didn't have a school in Southwest for us. We grew up during the time of segregation in the '40s and '50s. We had to catch the city bus to go to school and – The closest school to us during that time was Loudon as Lawrence mentioned earlier, Harrison LM: Harrison first. GP: Those were the two closest schools to us so we had to be bused to those particular schools by way of city buses. CR: Harrison? GP: That was on Harrison Avenue. You know where the old Harrison Museum is? CR: Mm mm. GP: Now that was the first black high school that they had. This is where Miss Addison started. And at that particular point as he stated earlier we went to Booker T. Again, we were still bused. We still didn't have buses. We had to either walk LM: Wait a minute. After we got out of elementary, you was on your own. You had to get to school GP: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We still had to ride the city buses. LM: Not _____ Booker T. right? GP: We still had to ride the city buses when we went to Booker T. But during that particular time, even though this particular area was primarily depressed, we didn't know. We didn't – We had no idea we were poor. We wasn't widespread as West-End or Southwest is today. We went – black folk – went from 5th Street to 15th Street, from Jackson Avenue to Salem Avenue. We did not live on Rorer Avenue until the middle '50s and then it spreaded out to Campbell and so forth and so forth and it was sort of a class thing even back then. LM: You ________ GP: That made _______ because we were so close. We knew everyone and this was the way we were raised. Everyone knew everyone and if you did something wrong then everyone was right on your case. And during that time, and I can only speak for the first 18 years of my life before coming back to Roanoke – After I left Roanoke, I went to college. CR: Where did you go to college? GP: I went to 3 different colleges. I went to – I graduated and I went to Virginia State and I graduated from Bluefield State and I graduated from Temple University and I graduated from California State University. My law degree came from California State University. But I – we went back to �Philadelphia because that's who sent me to to get my law degree. After which I retired and I came back to Roanoke to live. CR: When did you come back to Roanoke? GP: I came back to Roanoke in 04. CR: Do you have family here? Is that why you came back? GP: I came back – I still have nieces and nephews. I have a son that lives in Richmond. I wanted to be closer to my grandchildren and so forth and so I moved back to Roanoke after retiring. Well, I've been retired for 10 years so I stayed around for my nephew for a while – my own office and so forth. But getting back to Roanoke itself, when I returned, so many changes had taken place because we – All of old Southwest was just about demolished and torn down as I knew Southwest. You see even where they are building, if you recall, its where they're building houses now – Even Hurt Park – I know when we left Roanoke, there was no Hurt Park school. That was our football field or sports field. LM: Yeah. CR: The whole area? GP: Hurt Park. LM: Which is where practice was. CR: Even where the Hurt Park. GP: That whole – you know where Hurt Park school is? CR: Right but the whole part where the projects were was that there or -? GP: See, the projects weren't there. You see, you have to go back to 1951 when they built Lincoln Terrace, there was a projects where Hurt Park is, school is, was. That was a project. You remember the old barracks? The old Barracks? LM: Those were the OTI homes. GP: Yeah, OTI homes but it was the projects. LM: Right. GP: You see they tore those down and made a football field for us. LM: Crackerbox houses. GP: Right, and when they opened up Lincoln Terrace. CR: When was that, in the '50s? That was in the '50s? GP: That was in the '50s, yeah, early '50s. LM: I think before that. GP: Early '50s. LM: About '55 or '53 GP: No, it was before that. It was around '51. They opened up Lincoln Terrace and when they opened up Lincoln Terrace, they tore those down and made the field up there for us. But that was the only thing up there. But you have to understand that even at that particular point, we couldn't go beyond there. We couldn't go beyond because we didn't live in that area then, you see. We stopped around 16th Street. LM: Right. I remember – that's where we used to go swimming, right? GP: Right. ______ LM: There was a little white boy who had big dogs. I think he's still living in that house. GP: (chuckling) LM: I had a dog, Tip, you remember the dog I had? GP: Yeah. LM: A brown dog. You had to across Patterson and 11th Street and every time we'd go across there, he had rocks and throw 'em and call us all kinds of ____. My dog caught him in the butt one time. (all laughing) We learned to swim right out here. I almost got drowned when I was 5 and you almost got drowned. My brother saved both of y'all. GP: Even those were the days. But in terms of progress, I imagine you would - Lawrence may have �been around then but like I say, I left after that time and with the changes being made and everything. In fact, this 10th Street bridge wasn't even here when I left Roanoke. We still had a little small, little bridge we had to cross – almost a one-laner when I left Roanoke. But I do remember this was my church and I was a member of this church. Your church too, right? Its been a church for over 50 years. LM: I used to go to Boy Scouts here. He did too. Mr. _____ Younger, _____ Franklin, Joyce Betty, Scott – Paul Scott. They were our Scout Masters. GP: But now this is, you know, this has changed completely. You can live wherever you want to in Southwest but during my time, we could not, you know like I said, we did come up during the years of segregation where we had to go in the back of the Commodore Inn. CR: The Commodore Inn, where's that? Or where was that? GP: Over on 13th Street. LM: That's still standing. GP: Yes. 13th Street. I was born on 13th Street - 12th Street, I was born on 12th Street. LM: You were raised up down there GP: Yeah, but I was raised up down there. I spent 5 years on 13th Street. But that was a LM: A nice little house down there GP: A family cluster. My grandmother, grandfather, uncles, aunts and all of 'em lived in the 900 block. LM: My uncle lived next door. GP: Yeah, in the 900 block. So I grew up in a cluster of family. But it was great. Even though we still experienced those hardships and everything, and seeming we're still experience some hardships – progress I guess. CR: Are there any stories or something that stands out, something memorable that you remember from when you were here or during that time? LM: There wasn't no work here at all – dishwashing, you can't even hardly get a dishwashing job. If you had an education, you couldn't get nothing here. So you didn't have any, so everybody had to migrate North, DC on up, see , to get a decent job back in the day. That's why I left. __________ I was working for Charlie Sanders doing dishwashing jobs, that's it. Couldn't find no work. You remember? CR: How old were you when you left? LM: When I left Roanoke, I was 19. I went in the Army when I was 19. I got out when I was 21 around February 28th, 1961, stayed here 45 days and went to Philly. GP: I came back after college to seek employment and I was just married and I was offered a contract with the Roanoke City Schools at that particular time. The year that I graduated from college, the starting salary for teachers was like $2,900 which I felt was (laughing) was a bit low. So I sought my fortune somewhere else. But I went with the Boy Scouts of America and became a District ______ Executive serving the southern part of Virginia which transferred me to Philadelphia at that particular time. But salaries and job availability was at LM: Chaos GP: It was at an all-time low for blacks and this is when they were just opening up General Electric. I think they started hiring people at General Electric and places like that. LM: ______ I didn't do it myself. _____ GP: (laughing) I don't know whether _______ LM: I went for a plastering jobs and they weren't hiring no brothers. Now Neil Bennett, he retired but he's out there now. He know more about it than I do. He said the only way we got on was when there was a strike up there one time. Whites went on strike and they hired brothers. They got that “right-towork” law in Virginia. Yeah, so, _______ they started hiring after they settled the strike and they kept some of the brothers. That's what he told me. He's out there now. He's about 76, 77. GP: But through it all, I think growing up in Roanoke and especially Southwest because its all I can speak on in terms of people and how people responded to us, was very good. I, like I say, we didn't �know – we were so happy with what we were doing until we didn't know how poor we really were. ________ LM: _____________ west ____ GP: West-end (laughing) during that particular time and this is not a negative thing I'm saying but y'all call it West-end, we just purely called it Southwest. As a result of that, people sold a whole lot of liquor in Southwest. LM: We sold it ourselves. GP: This is not a negative thing I'm saying, this is a survival during that particular time and bonded and un-bonded. LM: Right. GP: And this is how a whole lot of people in Southwest made it. Now that's not a negative thing I'm saying, I'm talking in terms of survival. LM: I'll tell ya. You talking about whiskey? That's the only time I ever had anything. My daddy's working _____ and my mother was selling whiskey in that little house over there. And we sold over there. That's the only time I ever had any money. She was making more money than he was then. GP: You know its not a negative thing and it was open. It wasn't a closed issue. You met in church every Sunday. LM: Mm mm GP: The same people that – people that were selling and after which you went and you made them happy. But I thought it was good, now that I can reflect back on it. LM: Now he came up in a family of two, two people, I had five. His daddy worked two jobs. He worked ________ and he worked in that club, back of the Rorer Theater at night. It was Mr. Perry. And I remember one time he said, I want a job over there _____. You talk about some hard work. I lasted about 2 weeks. Pulling the clothes out of tub. You worked it one time too didn't you? GP: I worked there every summer when I was in college. LM: Man, that was some hard work. CR: What was that, doing what? GP: The Roanoke Linen Service. They had these tubs where they washed the clothes and you had to pull clothes out of the tub, you know, with your hands, with your bare hands – It would swell up, you know because so much water would feed into your fingers. LM: I had about 8 sandwiches, a quart of milk. I was so tired, I lasted about 2 weeks. I said, “Mr. Perry, I can't take no more”. GP: Those were the days. CR: Did y'all ever go to Gainsboro and the Dumas and all that stuff? GP: Well, we had to, I mean, because that's where all the happenings was around the Gainsboro area such as – This is where the Y was located. The Young Mens Christian Association. Henry Street – This is where all the activity was - the movies. It was the only movie that we had was the one that was up there – unless you wanted to go downtown and go upstairs to the balcony. But this is where all our activities were generated from that particular area, the Gainsboro area. This is why we were so close throughout the city because we all grew up together. We all had to go to the same schools so therefore, we met up at a certain time and that was our life. There is hardly anyone that's my age that lives in Roanoke that I don't know and that's Northwest, Northeast before they tore Northeast down to – The city realized that they needed to expand and they tore Northeast down and the people from Northeast moved to Southwest. This is when Rorer Avenue opened up. Rorer Avenue and Patterson opened up. Those particular streets housed the people that were displaced from upper Northeast. That interesting LM: You had the projects back then. There wasn't no drugs in it back then like it is now. 'Cause I used to ride about two tanks of gas out looking for women, me and John Lewis. You know John Lewis? I got some pictures here of the house I was born in. I showed my daddy. I ain't showed my mother's picture. �CR: I think we would like to get copies of those if you like. What was your home life like aside from – or any stories passed down from generations or your parents grew up here or - ? GP: My parents grew up here too. My parents grew up, like I said, my grandmother and grandfather – Well my father was from North Carolina but my mother grew up a half a block from where I grew up because her parents grew up there. Parents from back grew up there. So I go all the way back to about 1885, Southwest. LM: Were your parents born here? GP: Huh? LM: Your daddy born in Roanoke? GP: No, my father was born in North Carolina but my mother and her mother was all down around 9th Street. LM: All the way down to 5th Street, those apartments GP: Right, but my grandmother actually – and this was sort of a class type system – my grandmother was real fair. Her skin was real fair and she grew up over on Patterson Avenue because her father was white. She was on the lower part of Patterson – Was it Patterson Avenue or - ? LM: Campbell. GP: Campbell. LM: Campbell past this street. GP: And she grew up in that pocket right there and so they've been up here LM: Was she real white? GP: Yeah. LM: When they're light, they treat them better. Let me tell you something. My mother had some clips of it from the paper _______. They had – If they needed somebody to do domestic work around the house, they had – they wanted a light-skinned colored person to work. You remember seeing that in the paper. GP: Yeah. LM: A light complexion. Now my driver's license had your complexion on there. Mine was light brown and there was dark brown and I guess some of 'em so light, they don't know to say so whatever. You remember seeing that on your license? When I was about 15. GP: Yeah, I remember that. Now my grandfather was from Lynchburg. My mother's father was from Lynchburg and they owned a lot of property in Lynchburg, houses and stuff like that. So when they built a house down here, they built a big house. You remember that big house on the corner with the pillars and all that. LM: Mm mm. GP: My grandfather CR: Where was that? GP: This was a block down. CR: Is it still there? GP: Oh no, its since been demolished because they passed an ordinance or something that you can't – that its only commercial from Norfolk Avenue – Norfolk Avenue, right? - All the way down so no one can live beyond 10th Street. And they tore all those houses down. LM: There are two houses somebody living in down there, I think. GP: My uncle's house is still there. LM: I think there's two people ______ GP: I go back on – My family go back around 1885 in this area. CR: Did they pass any stories down to you or you pass down to your children? GP: They were not historians in terms of – I think I know more about my father's ______ than actually what they would pass down as it relate to Roanoke, Big Lick at the time. But they do go all the way past the Big Lick era. Same thing – Because I think I can recognize myself in terms in what they were �able to do just from listening to them – quite naturally during that particular time – I don't think that they experienced much in terms of the Depression because they had a few things going for 'em. So I don't think that they experienced a whole lot during that particular time. In fact this particular area I don't think even experienced a _____ Depression. LM: My daddy always had a job but he worked as a cook in the Virginia railroad. He left there and went to work ________. He worked there until he retired. When he retired, he came and lived with me and died with me in Jersey. CR: Did you have any or did they have any recollection of slavery or anybody associated with that? LM: My mother's mother – my grandfather and them – them people were slaves. I guess my niece _____ She ____ her history. She done looked it up in the library. GP: If you know anything about slavery and how it affected this particular area, it just didn't affect this particular area too much because it was, what would you call it, what would be the term? It was nonessential. If you go beyond Rocky Mount, Franklin County or somewhere like that. What was this area good for? CR: Really? GP: The railroad back then, Norfolk & Western did not exist. When the Army would not trample in this particular area simply because of the hilly terrain and everything. It was very, very minimal. I mean plantations, no plantations. Anyone would say, “Let's go and see this plantation”. They didn't have any plantations in this area. Where we gonna put a plantation at? What were they going to grow? Is that something to think about? I guess - But, no, I know mine didn't and I know my grandfather was or should – I think my grandfather was born in I think it was 79 so he was a bit beyond slavery. His father I know and like I say in Lynchburg and to this day I don't know how he was able to accumulate all the land and houses and things that he had. My grandfather used to go down to the ________. But I know that he – probably its possible but there wasn't too much of that here in the Valley as they would call it, slavery and so forth. They'd hang ya. CR: And why would they do that? For what reasons would you – I know GP: If I looked at you in the wrong way, I mean, they would find a reason to do that. Are you from this area? CR: I am. GP: You are? OK. 'Cause they would hang you, no problem. They'd probably hang you. CR: Was that common? GP: During the '40s and '50s, they had no problem hanging you. CR: If you crossed the tracks I guess. GP: If you crossed the line, the line that had been established in any Southern state. This is a Southern state and they had no problem doing that. See, but there's one thing I think we knew what our boundaries were. LM: Oh yeah, and it ain't over. GP: Because we were having so much fun within those boundaries so that didn't bother us. It didn't bother us at all. But, yes, they would do that. They could find a reason to do that. CR: I guess white people come over to this side often for like your whiskeys or the women, entertainment. GP: Yeah, all of that. I mean – All of that and we have those type of clientele coming into this area but we couldn't go into that area and do that but they could come here and you know, that applied to law enforcement or whatever. LM: Let me tell you about this. My brother's wife, Elsie, she died. She had a kidney transfer operation and she looked like she was white. Do you remember her? GP: Yeah. LM: She couldn't get married in Roanoke because she was white. They had to go to Tennessee or somewhere. Somewhere, he said _______. One guy said well why don't y'all marry with a black �preacher. _______ got married. He thinks she white. I tell ya, Robert and her was together one time and he had two _______. She was chasing him in his car. He had momma's car. They was going out to _______. They got married around about the same time. She was chasing him in the Chevrolet. A white cop riding behind them on a motorcycle, stopped 'em, gave both of 'em a ticket and he said, “Wait a minute. What you doing chasing that nigger around”. She said, “That's my husband”. GP: I experienced similar things in West Virginia with my wife. She was fair, very, very fair and I got stopped several times. But like I say again, during that time we knew our boundaries and it didn't bother us because we had nice young ladies. LM: What state was that? GP: It was – It didn't bother us. CR: Did y'all have anyone here in Roanoke to look up to, any leaders or anybody active, activists or that type? GP: I know during the time that I was coming along, there were families and some individuals such as the Claytors down in Hamlet, I know he sort of influenced me. He was a frat brother of mine. Dr. Cumming who just died. I go way back with him. In fact, he was my first dentist. He was also a frat brother. But LM: Dr. Pinkett. GP: We had a whole lot of – and teachers. Many teachers were influential in terms of molding a whole of people. LM: Especially Miss Lawson, Mr. Poindexter. GP: That was all we had to turn to really. LM: Remember Miss Lawson and Miss Poindexter? They were the best English teachers. ________ Miss ______ was good. Do you remember her ______? GP: Probably so. LM: She say, you say “get” 500 times a day and he said the next day he would go up to 1000. _____ get, get, get. GP: But right here in Southwest, George Franklin – I grew up on 12th Street with him. He was about 5 or 6 years older than we were but he was – I know he was my mentor. I love the man. CR: I remember him. I knew him. GP: Him and Melvin LM: Best football players that ever came out of Southwest. GP: Yeah, but beyond that, beyond that he was – he had so much that if you listened to him and many times when we were growing up, I would listen – he picked me up and took me to college. LM: He's a good mentor. GP: And stayed right with me. LM: ________________ 0.33.54.4 GP: Yeah but he first of all and there are other men right here in this West End side that were good mentors. My minister, Reverend Hunter LM: Ben, his son graduated with us, Ben Hunter GP: A lot of men, a lot of men. Men that many children looked up to and that you respected. I thought that was good. LM: I don't remember Dr. Pinkett. They had he had a ______ years ago. Had a _____ too and then he moved out to Pinkett's Court. He's in this book right here. GP: I remember Dr. Pinkett, Dr. Rawlings. LM: ___________ GP &LM: [Both talking at the same time and over each other] LM: You guys used to go down there wrestling. GP: Yeah. �LM: Man, that wrestling was fake, nobody won. You'd get so sore. I said, I'm tired. Just give it up. GP: But they were never – but those type people were never my inspiration at all. And just the people in general. If you'd do something wrong, your mother and father knew about it before you got home. LM: Tear your butt up. GP: And, hey, you walked a very, very narrow line. LM: ______________ CR: Well, I hate to cut this short. We had a half an hour increments and we'd love to get these pictures. GP: These are the men _______ men that should be – 'cause they perceived it – they were before us. LM: This is where the, uh, what's that, the Tuskeegee fighters? CR: Airmen? LM: They came back to Roanoke and we was over there at the First Baptist Church ________. __________. That's a good picture there. GP: People look like Popeye. CR: Well, is there anything else that you all would like to say before we have to switch off. LM: I can tell you where my people came from. My mother, she came from Farmville, Virginia. CR: My mother's from Farmville. LM: My daddy came from Lynchburg. I got a picture of my daddy when he was 15. Wanna see it? CR: Sure. (rustling papers) I'm gonna stop the recorder and thank you all for participating. GP: I guess this is all about the library - [recording stops] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gilmore Perry, Jr. with Lawrence Mitchell Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gilmore Perry, Jr. with Lawrence Mitchell Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 36:35 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gilmore Perry, Jr.; Lawrence Mitchell; Cheryl Ramsey; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PerryGilmore https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2691/PeeksRegina_[compressed].mp3 c86a58774acdf4dcbe99d3f86e602519 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2691/peeks.Regina.Holmes.2008.pdf 5ba2f2eeda5f04a87dc97ede50458b85 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Regina Holmes Peeks Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today's date is February 23, 2008. I am going to be interviewing Ms. Regina Holmes Peeks. We are at Jerusalem Baptist Church. CR: Do you have a nickname that you would want to tell us? If you don't want to RP: Most people in Southwest just call me Sweet Sue ever since I was a baby. CR: Where did that come from? RP: My father. Well, really my uncle named me Sweet Sue. They raised me, the Holmes raised me. And, um, he named me Sweet Sue after an old song. You know there used to be an old song, “In the heart of mine, you will always find Sweet Sue”. So I've been Sweet Sue over the years. People that knew me, they called me Sweet Sue. It doesn't bother me. I found that it bothers one of our men in here. I called him by his nickname. I didn't know his name. He told me, “My name is Alfonzo”. CR: And what is your date of birth? RP: December 13, 1930. CR: And your place of birth? RP: 825 Norfolk Avenue on the other side of the bridge. CR: And the name of spouse or spouses, children? RP: Well, I'm divorced. My daughters, one was Mary Anderson and Vonda Wright and Eugene Peeks, Jr. CR: And their birthdays if you - ? RP: Oh, I couldn't tell you. (Both laughing) But I have, what, I have 3 grandchildren, 2 grand-nieces that I raised and my daughter Asha Zarick (??) - wait a minute, getting mixed up. I can't think of her name but she died at 14 and she was interviewed by the paper too. And there was a big write-up in the paper about her. She died of cancer at 14 and – I can't think of the child's name – Cynthia, Cynthia Peeks. Her name was Cynthia Peeks and the guy came out and interviewed her and that was one of my daughters. And I have 2 grand-nieces I raised and I have 3 grandchildren and I raised all of their children. So, its a big family but they've all died down. My mother died at 94, two years ago and she belonged to Jerusalem and I've always belonged to Jerusalem. That's it. CR: OK. And where else have you lived other than - ? RP: I lived in that big yellow house that used to be right there at 10th Street. It used to be old Dr. Pinkett's house. After he moved out, we moved in there. That's where I spent my, what do you call it, my younger days growing up, right there. We moved off of Norfolk Avenue into that house right there and they called it Book (??) Washington's house but we lived there before Book (??) did. And when Book (??) moved, they tore it down. And the Hankins lived across the street in the big house, right across the street. Mine was – This house was at 1001 Salem Avenue. CR: The big yellow house? RP: The big yellow house, uh huh. It was Dr. Pinkett, old Dr. Pinkett's house. CR: So, you've lived in Roanoke your whole life? RP: Mm mm. CR: And so, do you have any other family members that still live in Roanoke? RP: My daughters are here and their children. My son lives in York, Pennsylvania, and that's it. Very little, few of us left now. Its all grand and great-grand and I'm the oldest now. And I have a brother, Willie Hicks, Jr. He lives here. He lives with my daughter. That's it, I'm the last of the family. CR: Did you – What do you remember about your childhood home? RP: Well, I (giggle) lived right there on the corner and I come up during the Depression. My Uncle John did not work on the railroad. My Uncle John hustled. That's getting money any way you can get �it and most of it was from selling corn whiskey. And he made it in West Virginia and brought it here on the hobo and he sold it. But he didn't sell it in our house. He had a house on 10th Street that he sold whiskey. I had the first bicycle (giggle) I had the first bicycle and some of the guys used to tease me that I grew up with used to tease me said I used to charge 'em 10 cents to ride the bicycle (laughing). Five cents, a nickel, to get a ride on my bicycle and well I had all the privileges that a better class black child had because daddy hustled. Its really funny because that's the way we ate and I ate good. You see, some of the daddies was on the railroad and the silk mill. Daddy didn't work there, my Uncle John. My mother's sister raised me so, I laugh. I said one girl, she told me, she said, “I thought you was rich”. (Laughing) I wasn't rich, I was just little and didn't grow. And I had a lot of clothes 'cause from one year to another, everything fit. But its really funny because you have all these people, their daddy was this and their mother was this – My mother worked in domestic. My daddy sold liquor. I went to school. I had a very good upbringing. We moved. My Aunt Cora bought a house on Center Avenue. That's where I grew up. That was the last house. During 1945, I think, during the second World War, my people had to go to Newport News to work 'cause there wasn't no jobs here. So they went to Newport News to work and I finished school in Newport News. 0.08.06.3 CR: Where was that? RP: In Hampton, in the front door and out the back door. One year. CR: About when was that? RP: Huh? CR: When was that when you were in Norfolk? RP: Newport News. CR: Or Newport News? RP: 1945 during the second World War. I think it was about either '45, between '45 and '46 or something like that. 'Cause I finished ahead to be - I finished in 1950, finished school in '50 so it had to be around that time. They had to go to Newport – people had to leave here to get jobs, black people, had to leave here to get jobs. It wasn't any jobs in Roanoke. If you were established on the railroad or silk mill, you know. So I come up in prejudice time, believe me. And, um, we went down there. I went down there. I went to old Addison. CR: What elementary school, what were all the schools you went to in Roanoke? 0.09.14.8 RP: Harrison. We walked across the old bridge from here. There was an old iron bridge. CR: Where 10th Street is? RP: Yes. That's not where it was. It was further down. CR: OK: RP: And it was like on 7th Street and we walked from here across that bridge and over to Harrison Avenue to Harrison Elementary School. And then we – when we went to Addison, you walked on past there to Addison School. You walked going and coming. They didn't have no buses. Yeah, all up here. This building right in front of it, on Salem Avenue, was the old Wright Hotel. When I was coming up, it was a hotel. Miss Wright had it and then it become a pool hall. Then it was a restaurant. And its been a church. And this building, the back of its right here, it used to be on Salem Avenue a stucco apartment house, 3 stories, stucco. They tore that down. And then 3 little row houses right in there and then a field and then Salem Avenue right down 10th Street. And all the best been done over – They just tore all that down because you come – You go down – the houses right there at the alley – I mean on – by the bridge. They were houses and across the street was houses just like it, right across the street. 'Cause see they tore all that down and went straight. You go down this way and down that way and then across the bridge, that's the way it was. 0.11.00.8 CR: That was Salem, I mean the 7th Street bridge that you were talking about? �RP: Yeah. Mm mm. You had to go down 10th Street right here and then you go down where those houses are right there. (Phone call) You go right there at 10th Street and those houses that you see right on this side, there used to be houses like that on the other side. That was the street you go down and then you had to go around the corner, Norfolk Avenue, and then back one block and then back and go across the old bridge. You'll see a white filling station on the other side of the bridge over there and that's where you went – that's the way it was. But see, when they revitalized, when they put all of that, put the bridge straight across now. CR: OK. So what was your childhood like here as far as any - ? RP: Happy. We got along, all of us got along. I mean, fights and all that, you know, but I had a happy childhood. I didn't know I was poor until someone told me. I mean I really didn't. Segregation, I knew about segregation, places we couldn't go and we couldn't do. CR: Mm mm. RP: Things we couldn't do but right up in here was the city right up in here. And then the kids we went to school with – boyfriend lived over in Northeast and if he come and get caught up here, the boys up here would beat him or whatever across the bridge. I went through all of that. It was all a good childhood as far as I know, you know. We – on the next street it was white. When I was growing up, the street over there, going down Salem Avenue was white. Then later on they sold it to black people and all on up the street there. That was black. All of that was black. It didn't bother me. We'd walk over, we used to walk over to Wasena Bridge and throw rocks at white children and (laughing) they'd throw rocks at us and that was our Sunday outing (laughing). Or we'd go to the Virginia Theater, you know we didn't have but one. We'd walk to the Virginia Theater. We walked everywhere. We did. Wasn't no riding. It was a street car that came up Patterson, I think it came up Patterson or Campbell one, I think Campbell streetcar. And you caught that streetcar from downtown and you'd come up and then you walked to Salem Avenue. Didn't anybody tell you – I guess it is on the other – But there was a streetcar, old streetcar, and you rode and that's the closest you got to riding anything unless your parents had cars. See, I come way back, during the Depression and everything. 0.14.18.8 CR: How much – Were you ever allowed to come home from school, after school. Did you come home just you and your siblings or anything or did you go somewhere after school? RP: No. We just came home. CR: Just came straight home? RP: Mm mm. We came home. CR: Because it took you a while to get home anyway from walking. RP: Well, you had – Me, I had a certain time I had better be here. Mamma would give me so much time to get across that bridge and get home and then I came home, change clothes. When I come up, you had school clothes, school shoes and then you had play clothes and you changed clothes, hung 'em up and then you could go play after you do your chores. But, no, we didn't have any – Most of the mothers stayed home anyway but mine didn't. All of my people worked. No, I hadn't had no babysitter. My children didn't have babysitters. My kids were latch-key kids, Cynthia, Adonna, Fuzzy, Fleece, Candy, (??) and, who else? They all had – They were latch-key kids and I live on Andrews Road now. You know where Dr. Butter (??) live on Andrews Road? Across from the newspaper. I live over there. They came home from school and they knew they could not take anybody in the house. That they'd play in the yard and that bunch that lived all around there, they would walk up to Leon and, that's where the bus would let 'em off and then they'd come down in my yard. Then, they'd walk back up and when they'd get tired, everybody would go home. So, I mean, no, I never had a babysitter at all. Because I worked. I leave home, I would leave home at 6:30 every morning. Then my mother would walk down to 19th Street and catch – and over to catch the bus until the people she worked for called and said she needed to catch a bus there 'cause she had to walk over 2 blocks to catch the bus to go to work and walk 2 blocks coming back. If I didn't pick her up. Most of the time I would pick her up �'cause I always drove. The people she worked for told me that she needed a bus to come down by the house. Now, it comes down by the house. Did the same thing with my children, catching the bus. They'd catch the bus right in front of the house, the yellow ones, but they had to go up on the hill – the older ones would go up on Leon to catch the bus. I didn't have a babysitter. I never paid nobody to keep my kids. I tell 'em, “When you come in this house, you lock that door. You look at TV or get your homework. Don't answer the door. Anybody that comes in that door got a key”. That's it. Now I had one break in. This guy worked for Carolyn Patterson's husband and he had cased the house out. Came in, kicked my window in, tore my piano up getting through the window and took my mother's new TV. We caught him though. We knew who it was. That's the only break-in I've had. 0.17.49.9 CR: On Andrews Road? RP: On Andrews Road. A better neighborhood, you know. CR: How much schooling were you able to complete or did you go to college? RP: I went to – Actually, Hampton doesn't even count because I didn't do nothing but play. I majored in boys and a good time. Daddy said CR: This was in high school? RP: This was Hampton Institute. CR: I went to Hampton. RP: Uh huh. CR: You went there for a year? RP: Uh huh. CR: OK. RP: Daddy got the grades. He said, “Get a job. You're wasting my time”. But later, I went to University of Maryland by being a soldier's wife. I lived in Fredrick, Maryland. I was a teacher's aide and working with Special Education children and they sent me to school but I left him with – I think I had about 10 or 12 credits to make up and I left before I got my certificate, so, that don't count either but I did go for 3 years in Special Education for children. CR: What school was that? RP: University of Maryland. CR: OK. Did anyone else in your family or immediate family go to college or any of your children? RP: No. CR: OK. RP: Wanda went but that didn't count either. (Laughing) CR: Do you remember when you all first got a telephone or a refrigerator and TV? RP: Well, that was on Center Avenue when we got – 'cause when we was up here, you didn't have telephones and things like that. Maybe somebody else did, you know, one telephone somewhere but we got the first telephone on Center Avenue. I think I was a teenager. And there wasn't no TV and I had left home by the time TV come out and all that. But we had telephone. We got a telephone, a tall black one over on Center Avenue. Always had a record player _____ (??) or anything, always had music going. Always radio, record player and all that but no TV. I didn't come up during the TV days. TV days, well, you just got 'em. CR: Did you go to the like the concerts and see the entertainers here? RP: Yes, the American Legion Auditorium - everything that ever come to Roanoke, I was there. 0.20.27.6 CR: Who were some of your favorite entertainers? RP: Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, all of the old ones. CR: Cab Calloway? RP: Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, all of the old ones, all of the old ones. And we had – Did anybody ever tell you about Henry Street? �CR: Oh yeah. RP: Uh huh, OK. And I come up during the Henry Street days and the (laughing) and CR: The part (??) RP: All of that. CR: Dances and stuff. RP: The American Legion Auditorium burned down. We used to go CR: Where exactly was that? Was it where the Civic RP: Across in front of you know where the Civic Center is? CR: Mm mm. RP: It was in there somewhere. No, no, no. The train station. Across from the train station and the Hotel Roanoke, over there. It was a great big old building. And it had all of Cab Calloway, Louis Armstrong and just everybody. I didn't see Marvin Gaye though. I didn't see him but I saw all of the old ones. I went to every one of 'em. And walked from 1st Street to Center Avenue. Like I said, we didn't have a car. And if you had a boyfriend that had a car, you'd better not get in it. You best walk. You weren't allowed in cars and things, you know. A lot of 'em got in 'em but I – My Aunt Cora didn't play. What she said. You know its funny but I just might be revelling (??) but when we sit down – These kids doing things – And my Aunt Cora told me something, I believed her. “Girl, if you bring in a baby, I'll kill you”. I believed her. I guess that was dumb whatever momma say was it. And yes, I got whippings. I got whippings. We had a tree on the side of the house, a peach tree. We didn't know it was a peach tree 'til I went to school. If I didn't do what mamma said do, “When I come in you better be at the peach tree” was around my legs. That switch was around my legs and she said, “A switch ain't never killed nobody”. And I raised my girls the same way. But no, there ain't no boys in the family. That one boy and that's my son. I raised my girls the same way. I got a big old tree right in front of my yard called Miss Lucy. And when I get there, I mean business. I got a half bathroom in my room. You can't get out but one way and that's by me. Pull this thing back, that shower curtain back and turn his legs red. You can cover up, anything you want to but I'm gonna get you somewhere else. I mean I didn't have to do it but once or twice and then they knew I meant business. That's the way I was raised up here in Southwest. Right here. If momma looked out and saw me talking, that was the end of it. You pay attention. You're supposed to pay attention. You play when you get out of church. That's the way I was raised. 0.23.59.8 CR: What's businesses or shops did you and your family go to a lot in the area? RP: Up here – Actually, they had a cleaners in this building that's standing right here. CR: Where Tuck's used to be? RP: Right here. CR: OK RP: And they had a business there and across the street was, it was, like I said, Miss Wright's Hotel is what they called it. That's the big building on Salem Avenue. Its been a restaurant. Its been a club. Its been everything and I think its a church now. But I wasn't allowed there. Then they had a store, a big white store here, it was Syrians. Alright we had a big white store, we went in there. And then they had a store right here. Let me see. Let me get myself straight now. Right here. On this corner, 11th Street, Miss Irene with one of the girls in there was, it was her grandmother's store. Miss Irene's store and she carried everything you needed in there in a little old store and that's it up here. CR: Is there anything that you miss even not necessarily in this neighborhood but going over to the old Northeast like when they tore down, were you sad to see it go or things like that? 0.25.44.9 RP: Well, its sad to see how the houses and things are gone because these were very fine houses growing up. Like going up Salem Avenue on this side, very nice houses. The two right here on the corner, beautiful houses. Look at 'em now. You know, its going down. That used be the Garst Brothers �Dairy over there. You could go in there and get ice cream. CR: One of the houses on the corner? RP: No. The big white building across the street. CR: OK RP: Garst Brothers Dairy. And we used to go in there and get ice cream because we just skated all up and down the street, you know. And then you got a store there and maybe a restaurant or something like that. Its just the neighborhood's just going down. That's all. We didn't have that much other than mom and pop stores. That's about all they had up here. Some restaurants. CR: Do you remember a lot of racial tension? RP: Uh uh. Not here. Not up here. CR: OK RP: I wasn't home during the integrating and stuff. I was in Missouri I think when all the integrating and stuff come along. But like I said, it didn't really bother me coming up, racial didn't bother me at all. We played with the Syrian children. They grew up with us and CR: They were white children? RP: Yeah. CR: OK RP: They grew up – Their momma owned the store and they grew up with us. Although we didn't go to the same schools but we was just it. And we used to have – let me see – Salem Avenue – on 8th Street was a lady, an old white lady there that had 2 parrots and we would come up 8th Street and he would call us niggers. “See them niggers going”. (Chuckling) CR: The parrots would say that? RP: Uh huh. They would be on a screened in porch and they'd call us little niggers (Laughing). It was a whole lot of it going around, you know. CR: So what is your fondest childhood memory? RP: Growing up here. Right here in like in the church here. Everybody knows me. Everybody knows me. I mean up here, around here. Growing up here, if I did anything like I would go to Henry Street and you let one of those drunks over there see me, “Sweet Sue, Miss Cora know you over here?”. They knew I wasn't supposed to be over there. Before I got home, momma knew it. I mean that's the way things were. Everybody took care of everybody. Don't care who you were. __________ (??) If somebody saw me over on Henry Street or saw me somewhere I wasn't supposed to be, you can bet your bottom dollar, when I got home, momma knew it. But we took care of everybody. Everybody takes care of everybody. Then, not now, then. All of us took care of it. I used to sneak to the 308. 0.29.09.1 CR: Where was that? RP: Huh? CR: Where was that? RP: That was one of the clubs on Henry Street. CR: OK. RP: And I wasn't supposed to be up there. When I'd get home, momma would know it. Anywhere I went, momma would know it because they took care of me. Drunks now are not like drunks used to be. (laughing) Drunks used to be very protective. If you'd be standing somewhere and they see something going on, they'd tell it. They'd tell your parents and you'd get it. But now, you know, nobody wants to get involved. I grew up in a happy time, I really did. Very happy. Like I said, I didn't know I was poor until they told me. (laughing) We had – I had plenty to eat. It might not've been what I wanted but I plenty of it. Where I work, they were talking about chitlins and rabbit and -people didn't eat this and they didn't eat that. I ain't had nothing to say 'cause if daddy brought it home, momma cooked it. If I didn't eat the meat, I ate the juice 'cause momma made gravy from everything. I come up during the time when one chicken would make a pan of gravy like that. (laughing). �0.30.28.3 CR: Speaking of work, what kind of work have you done throughout your -? RP: Me? CR: Mm mm. RP: A little bit of everything. I worked in the Corning Factory, you know, making these Corning dishes. I've worked in a factory making night goggles in Fredrick when my husband was overseas. That was before I got to be a teacher's aide. Then, I graduated from aide to the second teacher. Not the teacher but the second teacher. Because I worked in the ghetto school and you had to have 3 teachers in a classroom. You had the main teacher, and you had a medium teacher then you had an aide that would help do anything. If you had a white teacher, you had to have a black aide because black children lying on the white teacher and the white children lied on the black teacher. So they had to have this one out, this one out, you know. I worked – I came home. I left my husband in '72. I came home and was qualified for teaching children to read. They couldn't. But they wouldn't hire me. The head (??) high school – I worked the elementary and it was like high school children 'cause they sassy. So they wouldn't hire me. So I went to Double Envelope and I worked out there making envelopes and things. I went out there in reception but they didn't pay anything so I was hired in the plant and I worked out there for 24 years. That's where I retired from, Double Envelope out on Plantation Road. CR: I've heard of that. What kind of – I know you said it but – the cultural events that were happening in Roanoke and sports or did you attend any fairs or sporting events? RP: We used to have fairs. We had more fairs at Woodrum Field. They used to have – not near where the stadium was, on the other side of it, they used to have fairs out there all the time. And I used to go when I was little but I don't even like 'em now. They're not like that, you know. They used to have those. They used to have dances. They used to have the Black and White ball every year. I'd come home every year. Thanksgiving and Christmas, they'd have a Black and White ball. Then you would have another ball they have here. They had it at the Star City. They had an auditorium called the Star City Auditorium right off Walker, not Walker– You know where First Baptist Church is? CR: Mm mm. RP: The black First Baptist Church. Alright, right up that street. I can't think of the name. CR: Henry Street? RP: Right off Henry Street was a building they had called the Star City. They had dances there and they'd have big dances and they had a group called the Aristocrats that played – a band. They played for the Black and White ball and we used to come home for Christmas Ball, a Black and White Ball. Several dances – One of them was Thanksgiving and the other was Christmas. You definitely – If you was from Roanoke, you came home for that. CR: For both of those? RP: Mm mm. And that's it. We had – that's it. Church and one theater. Then we could go up in the Buzzard _____ (??) downtown. CR: That's the one with all the steps? RP: Yeah, and going all the way up on the third floor and that was one. That was it. And there were a lot of juke joints around, you know, like black people have. And that was it. That was our recreation. Church and that was it. CR: Did y'all have any community leaders or activists in the city that you remember? RP: Yes we did. There was Miss Wheating here, Madge Wheating. We had Miss Golden. They were city sleeters ((??) and back during my days, they didn't do much of anything towards – Roanoke is prejudiced. Always have been and its just a little bit better now than it always have been. I know I seem like a downer but its the truth. And I had a girlfriend, grew up right here with me, Audrey Paige and her daughter went to – I wonder where Paula went – Anyway, she was doing good in North Carolina. She went to college in North Carolina and she wanted to stay. And I told her mother, “Paula's doing good down there. You don't want her to come back here. If she can't be a teacher, she's �going to be a glorified secretary”. Roanoke - If you don't know somebody with good connections, you ain't going nowhere in Roanoke. Roanoke is prejudiced. I'm sorry but it is. It is prejudiced. We 2 steps above what we used to be. I'm sorry, that sounds ugly but its the truth and God knows its the truth. I love it here. I came home to die. (laughing) Somebody said, “If its so prejudiced, why'd you come back home?” I came home. I'm old and I came here until I die. I'm not going anywhere else. So, that's it. CR: Did you have any role models? RP: Huh? 0.36.50.2 CR: Did you have any role models coming up? Personally? RP: Not really, not really. 'Cause I didn't stay around here long enough. Other than my mother. My mother was a hard worker. My mother worked. She went to work. She caught the bus and went to work and I've known my mother to work from sunup to sundown. She worked all her life. She was 97 when she died. She came to church that morning and went home and cooked dinner, laid down and died. And my mother was a lover of fur. She was a very dressy lady, very fine lady and she loved it. She raised 2 families of white people that if she – It was hers. That was it. She'd raise that family and they'd love her. CR: What did she do? RP: She was a housekeeper, cook. CR: Two families in Roanoke? RP: Yeah. She raised 2 families, white families and Hancock is a stockbroker at A.E. Edwards and Chan Bolling is Mastin, Kirkland and Bolling. Raised his children and raised Hancock's children and they were all right here when she died. We all stood there and cried together. She raised all of 'em. They loved her. And all she had to do was “Yes ma'am”, “No ma'am”, that's the way they grew up. And she raised them like she raised us. Worked all of her life. Loved fur, had boas, a big fox fur boa, a white one and a black one. The white had to match. _____ (??) She worked everyday and got what she wanted. And she left me a good little piece of change that I done spent. (laughing) But, she was a lovable person. She taught me to cook. CR: That's always good. What, and this is probably one of the last two questions but, what other jobs did you know of that were available for men and women back then? I realize the railroads and -. RP: And the silk mill. CR: That was another one. Do you remember the closing of the silk mill? RP: They had the flour mill over there and the silk mill – Now I can't quite get the two of them apart. Then they had a lot of dress making, hal mode (??) and all that. That come along later, hal mode (??) and all that, that come along later. But now, back in my days, they didn't hire too many blacks to work along side the white people you know. That was during the time that I was growing up and when you worked on the railroad, you either worked on the railroad or you worked the dining car. And that was it. Of course you could do hotel work – Hotel Roanoke and Crystal – what was that name? It wasn't Crystal – Ponce de Leon Hotel, Patrick Henry Hotel and of course the Roanoke Hotel. Now they worked there and if you worked in any of the stores, you were a maid and that's all I can think of. That's all I can think of growing up, you know. The railroad was the biggest thing and I don't know whether blacks worked in the steel mill or not. They got a steel mill at Shavers Crossing. And I don't know if blacks worked there or not. Mostly railroad. They'd have to tell you that. But it was prejudiced. And work was limited. 0.41.11.6 CR: Was your family from here too? Did they work - ? RP: Lord, no. My mother was from South Carolina. From Columbia, South Carolina. She came here with her sister, Cora. It was Cora and John Holmes. They raised me, like I said. I was born out of wedlock and they raised me. That was it. �CR: Did your mother or anybody pass down any stories from -? RP: She could tell you some stories. (laughing) She could tell you like this lady in this house over here, this big gray house over here on the corner, big gray house on Norfolk Avenue. They used to have kind of a sporting house. When the railroad would get off then, they'd come through there. If the wives didn't catch them before they got there, they'd spend all their money there. (laughing) Big time. Its some many rooms in that house over there. They rent rooms. They fed you. You could get anything you wanted to drink and dance and meet your woman over there. This was the Jones house right there. Miss Ferrell lives there now. But that big gray house right there on the corner. That's about it. CR: Was there anything else you wanted to tell me or anything? RP: (laughing) I'm talking too much now. CR: No, I've enjoyed it. Anything we haven't covered or - ? RP: No. Not that I know of. CR: Well if you think of anything, I want to thank you for your time and I'm gonna stop this. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Regina Holmes Peeks Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Regina Holmes Peeks Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 43:02 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Regina Holmes Peeks; Cheryl Ramsey; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PeeksRegina https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2690/OllieAnita_[compressed].mp3 a6d1a5d584741918954987ee49ea4d5d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Anita Louise Ollie Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Anita Louise Ollie Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 26:21 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anita Louise Ollie; Alicia Sell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context OllieAnita https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2689/MorrisonVirginia_[compressed].mp3 d53bf0c13ba3461a140303270d85951f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia C. Morrison Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia C. Morrison Interviewer: Tanya Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 25:37 (in two parts) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Virginia Elizabeth Cooper Morrison; Tanya Weigel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MorrisonVirginia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/MitchellLawrence_[compressed].mp3 beea7e783b3ce0c00999f75cbc4646d7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/perry.Gilmore.2008.pdf b876b4d0dc335fd6b3f278764b6eed8d PDF Text Text Interviewee: Gilmore Perry & Lawrence Mitchell Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is February 23, 2008. I am interviewing Gilmore Perry, Jr. And also I am interviewing Lawrence William Mitchell. We are at Jerusalem Baptist Church. CR: I guess I'd like to ask first where and when were you born? GP: I was born September 7, 1940, on Norfolk Avenue, 916. CR: And you sir? LM: July 1, 1939. CR: And how long have you both lived in Roanoke? And possibly what streets and neighborhoods did you live in? GP: I lived in Roanoke from 1940 to 1958 after which I went off to college and returned about 3 years ago. CR: And you Mr. Williams? GP: I lived ________ (??) during that particular time after college. CR: And Mr. Mitchell, how long have you lived in Roanoke? LM: I was born where there used to be apartment buildings ____________. I was born right there, I lived there I guess about 15 years. Then we bought a house across the street over here. I lived there about another 3 years until I finished high school. I graduated I think it June 8, 1950. One of those days, __________________. I finished school. Do you want to know where I worked at __________________________? CR: Sure. LM: When I was in the 12th grade, I was working at Sears and Roebuck putting on tires and seat covers and batteries from 5 to 9, 5 days a week and on Saturday all day which I guess is about 28 hours a week I guess, working part-time. I worked there until about, for about 3-4 months. When I left there, I went to the Catawba Sanatorium. You've heard of Catawba Hospital up there on the mountain. CR: Yes sir. LM: I worked up there for about 6 months 'til the day I went into the Army. CR: OK. LM: I went into the Army Wednesday, March 31, 1959. That's when I went into the service. I was in there for 2 years, came back here and stayed 45 days – Left here and went to Philadelphia. My sister hooked me up with a job up there in a factory, pressing brand new suits. I didn't like that. Stayed there about 2 weeks and left there and went to _____ (??), New Jersey. I have relatives over there, cousins and then I was doing construction work. I worked there I guess about 2 years. Then I left construction and went to a pharmaceutical place where they made cosmetics and pharmaceutical products. I worked there for 8 ½ years. Then I went to a dye factory. I left the other job after 8 ½ years. I like to supervise so I went to this dye place and I worked there about 2 years. Then they laid the whole third shift off and then I just came on back home. And my brother had a club called Buck's Playboy Club. He called me up. CR: Where was that? LM: 1113 Center Avenue. Its still standing. Its a daycare center now. He got a daycare center now. And then for a while, I got a job on the railroad. That job kept laying off so much. So I left there. Of course, I had several jobs after there but that's the only two – the City of Roanoke after that. I started working for the City of Roanoke. I was there for 22 years and 10 months until I was 62. I was about 38 or 40 days from being 62. So I stayed there until I retired and I've been here ever since. But I was in Jersey though for 13 ½ years before I came back here. Army 2 years. CR: So do you have family still living here? �GP: Yes, I still have nieces and nephews and uncles and aunts that still reside in Roanoke. CR: In this area? GP In this area. Well, not in the West-end section but in Northwest primarily, North County. CR: Can y'all tell me a little bit about your education or your school life here in Roanoke? LM: I didn't go to college but while I was in high school, I took 2 years of carpentry in 9th and 10th grade. 2 years of mechanics in 11th and 12th . I learned ______ since I've been back here and I did plumbing, brick laying – I had brick laying in junior high school. You remember that? GP: Yes. LM: _______ teaching me. _________ CR: What school did you go to? LM: Booker T. Washington. First I went to Harrison. I went to Harrison for about 4 years and Loudon was all white and then you had your black. So I went there from 4th to 6th grade. Then they opened up old Addison. They named it Booker T. Washington. We were the first blacks to go in there as a junior high school. You remember that don't you? GP: Yes. LM: So when they opened the new Addison, then the old Addison was made into a junior high which is an administration building now. CR: Same for you? GP: Well what I can remember during that time, we didn't have school buses for one thing. And we didn't have a school in Southwest for us. We grew up during the time of segregation in the '40s and '50s. We had to catch the city bus to go to school and – The closest school to us during that time was Loudon as Lawrence mentioned earlier, Harrison LM: Harrison first. GP: Those were the two closest schools to us so we had to be bused to those particular schools by way of city buses. CR: Harrison? GP: That was on Harrison Avenue. You know where the old Harrison Museum is? CR: Mm mm. GP: Now that was the first black high school that they had. This is where Miss Addison started. And at that particular point as he stated earlier we went to Booker T. Again, we were still bused. We still didn't have buses. We had to either walk LM: Wait a minute. After we got out of elementary, you was on your own. You had to get to school GP: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We still had to ride the city buses. LM: Not _____ Booker T. right? GP: We still had to ride the city buses when we went to Booker T. But during that particular time, even though this particular area was primarily depressed, we didn't know. We didn't – We had no idea we were poor. We wasn't widespread as West-End or Southwest is today. We went – black folk – went from 5th Street to 15th Street, from Jackson Avenue to Salem Avenue. We did not live on Rorer Avenue until the middle '50s and then it spreaded out to Campbell and so forth and so forth and it was sort of a class thing even back then. LM: You ________ GP: That made _______ because we were so close. We knew everyone and this was the way we were raised. Everyone knew everyone and if you did something wrong then everyone was right on your case. And during that time, and I can only speak for the first 18 years of my life before coming back to Roanoke – After I left Roanoke, I went to college. CR: Where did you go to college? GP: I went to 3 different colleges. I went to – I graduated and I went to Virginia State and I graduated from Bluefield State and I graduated from Temple University and I graduated from California State University. My law degree came from California State University. But I – we went back to �Philadelphia because that's who sent me to to get my law degree. After which I retired and I came back to Roanoke to live. CR: When did you come back to Roanoke? GP: I came back to Roanoke in 04. CR: Do you have family here? Is that why you came back? GP: I came back – I still have nieces and nephews. I have a son that lives in Richmond. I wanted to be closer to my grandchildren and so forth and so I moved back to Roanoke after retiring. Well, I've been retired for 10 years so I stayed around for my nephew for a while – my own office and so forth. But getting back to Roanoke itself, when I returned, so many changes had taken place because we – All of old Southwest was just about demolished and torn down as I knew Southwest. You see even where they are building, if you recall, its where they're building houses now – Even Hurt Park – I know when we left Roanoke, there was no Hurt Park school. That was our football field or sports field. LM: Yeah. CR: The whole area? GP: Hurt Park. LM: Which is where practice was. CR: Even where the Hurt Park. GP: That whole – you know where Hurt Park school is? CR: Right but the whole part where the projects were was that there or -? GP: See, the projects weren't there. You see, you have to go back to 1951 when they built Lincoln Terrace, there was a projects where Hurt Park is, school is, was. That was a project. You remember the old barracks? The old Barracks? LM: Those were the OTI homes. GP: Yeah, OTI homes but it was the projects. LM: Right. GP: You see they tore those down and made a football field for us. LM: Crackerbox houses. GP: Right, and when they opened up Lincoln Terrace. CR: When was that, in the '50s? That was in the '50s? GP: That was in the '50s, yeah, early '50s. LM: I think before that. GP: Early '50s. LM: About '55 or '53 GP: No, it was before that. It was around '51. They opened up Lincoln Terrace and when they opened up Lincoln Terrace, they tore those down and made the field up there for us. But that was the only thing up there. But you have to understand that even at that particular point, we couldn't go beyond there. We couldn't go beyond because we didn't live in that area then, you see. We stopped around 16th Street. LM: Right. I remember – that's where we used to go swimming, right? GP: Right. ______ LM: There was a little white boy who had big dogs. I think he's still living in that house. GP: (chuckling) LM: I had a dog, Tip, you remember the dog I had? GP: Yeah. LM: A brown dog. You had to across Patterson and 11th Street and every time we'd go across there, he had rocks and throw 'em and call us all kinds of ____. My dog caught him in the butt one time. (all laughing) We learned to swim right out here. I almost got drowned when I was 5 and you almost got drowned. My brother saved both of y'all. GP: Even those were the days. But in terms of progress, I imagine you would - Lawrence may have �been around then but like I say, I left after that time and with the changes being made and everything. In fact, this 10th Street bridge wasn't even here when I left Roanoke. We still had a little small, little bridge we had to cross – almost a one-laner when I left Roanoke. But I do remember this was my church and I was a member of this church. Your church too, right? Its been a church for over 50 years. LM: I used to go to Boy Scouts here. He did too. Mr. _____ Younger, _____ Franklin, Joyce Betty, Scott – Paul Scott. They were our Scout Masters. GP: But now this is, you know, this has changed completely. You can live wherever you want to in Southwest but during my time, we could not, you know like I said, we did come up during the years of segregation where we had to go in the back of the Commodore Inn. CR: The Commodore Inn, where's that? Or where was that? GP: Over on 13th Street. LM: That's still standing. GP: Yes. 13th Street. I was born on 13th Street - 12th Street, I was born on 12th Street. LM: You were raised up down there GP: Yeah, but I was raised up down there. I spent 5 years on 13th Street. But that was a LM: A nice little house down there GP: A family cluster. My grandmother, grandfather, uncles, aunts and all of 'em lived in the 900 block. LM: My uncle lived next door. GP: Yeah, in the 900 block. So I grew up in a cluster of family. But it was great. Even though we still experienced those hardships and everything, and seeming we're still experience some hardships – progress I guess. CR: Are there any stories or something that stands out, something memorable that you remember from when you were here or during that time? LM: There wasn't no work here at all – dishwashing, you can't even hardly get a dishwashing job. If you had an education, you couldn't get nothing here. So you didn't have any, so everybody had to migrate North, DC on up, see , to get a decent job back in the day. That's why I left. __________ I was working for Charlie Sanders doing dishwashing jobs, that's it. Couldn't find no work. You remember? CR: How old were you when you left? LM: When I left Roanoke, I was 19. I went in the Army when I was 19. I got out when I was 21 around February 28th, 1961, stayed here 45 days and went to Philly. GP: I came back after college to seek employment and I was just married and I was offered a contract with the Roanoke City Schools at that particular time. The year that I graduated from college, the starting salary for teachers was like $2,900 which I felt was (laughing) was a bit low. So I sought my fortune somewhere else. But I went with the Boy Scouts of America and became a District ______ Executive serving the southern part of Virginia which transferred me to Philadelphia at that particular time. But salaries and job availability was at LM: Chaos GP: It was at an all-time low for blacks and this is when they were just opening up General Electric. I think they started hiring people at General Electric and places like that. LM: ______ I didn't do it myself. _____ GP: (laughing) I don't know whether _______ LM: I went for a plastering jobs and they weren't hiring no brothers. Now Neil Bennett, he retired but he's out there now. He know more about it than I do. He said the only way we got on was when there was a strike up there one time. Whites went on strike and they hired brothers. They got that “right-towork” law in Virginia. Yeah, so, _______ they started hiring after they settled the strike and they kept some of the brothers. That's what he told me. He's out there now. He's about 76, 77. GP: But through it all, I think growing up in Roanoke and especially Southwest because its all I can speak on in terms of people and how people responded to us, was very good. I, like I say, we didn't �know – we were so happy with what we were doing until we didn't know how poor we really were. ________ LM: _____________ west ____ GP: West-end (laughing) during that particular time and this is not a negative thing I'm saying but y'all call it West-end, we just purely called it Southwest. As a result of that, people sold a whole lot of liquor in Southwest. LM: We sold it ourselves. GP: This is not a negative thing I'm saying, this is a survival during that particular time and bonded and un-bonded. LM: Right. GP: And this is how a whole lot of people in Southwest made it. Now that's not a negative thing I'm saying, I'm talking in terms of survival. LM: I'll tell ya. You talking about whiskey? That's the only time I ever had anything. My daddy's working _____ and my mother was selling whiskey in that little house over there. And we sold over there. That's the only time I ever had any money. She was making more money than he was then. GP: You know its not a negative thing and it was open. It wasn't a closed issue. You met in church every Sunday. LM: Mm mm GP: The same people that – people that were selling and after which you went and you made them happy. But I thought it was good, now that I can reflect back on it. LM: Now he came up in a family of two, two people, I had five. His daddy worked two jobs. He worked ________ and he worked in that club, back of the Rorer Theater at night. It was Mr. Perry. And I remember one time he said, I want a job over there _____. You talk about some hard work. I lasted about 2 weeks. Pulling the clothes out of tub. You worked it one time too didn't you? GP: I worked there every summer when I was in college. LM: Man, that was some hard work. CR: What was that, doing what? GP: The Roanoke Linen Service. They had these tubs where they washed the clothes and you had to pull clothes out of the tub, you know, with your hands, with your bare hands – It would swell up, you know because so much water would feed into your fingers. LM: I had about 8 sandwiches, a quart of milk. I was so tired, I lasted about 2 weeks. I said, “Mr. Perry, I can't take no more”. GP: Those were the days. CR: Did y'all ever go to Gainsboro and the Dumas and all that stuff? GP: Well, we had to, I mean, because that's where all the happenings was around the Gainsboro area such as – This is where the Y was located. The Young Mens Christian Association. Henry Street – This is where all the activity was - the movies. It was the only movie that we had was the one that was up there – unless you wanted to go downtown and go upstairs to the balcony. But this is where all our activities were generated from that particular area, the Gainsboro area. This is why we were so close throughout the city because we all grew up together. We all had to go to the same schools so therefore, we met up at a certain time and that was our life. There is hardly anyone that's my age that lives in Roanoke that I don't know and that's Northwest, Northeast before they tore Northeast down to – The city realized that they needed to expand and they tore Northeast down and the people from Northeast moved to Southwest. This is when Rorer Avenue opened up. Rorer Avenue and Patterson opened up. Those particular streets housed the people that were displaced from upper Northeast. That interesting LM: You had the projects back then. There wasn't no drugs in it back then like it is now. 'Cause I used to ride about two tanks of gas out looking for women, me and John Lewis. You know John Lewis? I got some pictures here of the house I was born in. I showed my daddy. I ain't showed my mother's picture. �CR: I think we would like to get copies of those if you like. What was your home life like aside from – or any stories passed down from generations or your parents grew up here or - ? GP: My parents grew up here too. My parents grew up, like I said, my grandmother and grandfather – Well my father was from North Carolina but my mother grew up a half a block from where I grew up because her parents grew up there. Parents from back grew up there. So I go all the way back to about 1885, Southwest. LM: Were your parents born here? GP: Huh? LM: Your daddy born in Roanoke? GP: No, my father was born in North Carolina but my mother and her mother was all down around 9th Street. LM: All the way down to 5th Street, those apartments GP: Right, but my grandmother actually – and this was sort of a class type system – my grandmother was real fair. Her skin was real fair and she grew up over on Patterson Avenue because her father was white. She was on the lower part of Patterson – Was it Patterson Avenue or - ? LM: Campbell. GP: Campbell. LM: Campbell past this street. GP: And she grew up in that pocket right there and so they've been up here LM: Was she real white? GP: Yeah. LM: When they're light, they treat them better. Let me tell you something. My mother had some clips of it from the paper _______. They had – If they needed somebody to do domestic work around the house, they had – they wanted a light-skinned colored person to work. You remember seeing that in the paper. GP: Yeah. LM: A light complexion. Now my driver's license had your complexion on there. Mine was light brown and there was dark brown and I guess some of 'em so light, they don't know to say so whatever. You remember seeing that on your license? When I was about 15. GP: Yeah, I remember that. Now my grandfather was from Lynchburg. My mother's father was from Lynchburg and they owned a lot of property in Lynchburg, houses and stuff like that. So when they built a house down here, they built a big house. You remember that big house on the corner with the pillars and all that. LM: Mm mm. GP: My grandfather CR: Where was that? GP: This was a block down. CR: Is it still there? GP: Oh no, its since been demolished because they passed an ordinance or something that you can't – that its only commercial from Norfolk Avenue – Norfolk Avenue, right? - All the way down so no one can live beyond 10th Street. And they tore all those houses down. LM: There are two houses somebody living in down there, I think. GP: My uncle's house is still there. LM: I think there's two people ______ GP: I go back on – My family go back around 1885 in this area. CR: Did they pass any stories down to you or you pass down to your children? GP: They were not historians in terms of – I think I know more about my father's ______ than actually what they would pass down as it relate to Roanoke, Big Lick at the time. But they do go all the way past the Big Lick era. Same thing – Because I think I can recognize myself in terms in what they were �able to do just from listening to them – quite naturally during that particular time – I don't think that they experienced much in terms of the Depression because they had a few things going for 'em. So I don't think that they experienced a whole lot during that particular time. In fact this particular area I don't think even experienced a _____ Depression. LM: My daddy always had a job but he worked as a cook in the Virginia railroad. He left there and went to work ________. He worked there until he retired. When he retired, he came and lived with me and died with me in Jersey. CR: Did you have any or did they have any recollection of slavery or anybody associated with that? LM: My mother's mother – my grandfather and them – them people were slaves. I guess my niece _____ She ____ her history. She done looked it up in the library. GP: If you know anything about slavery and how it affected this particular area, it just didn't affect this particular area too much because it was, what would you call it, what would be the term? It was nonessential. If you go beyond Rocky Mount, Franklin County or somewhere like that. What was this area good for? CR: Really? GP: The railroad back then, Norfolk & Western did not exist. When the Army would not trample in this particular area simply because of the hilly terrain and everything. It was very, very minimal. I mean plantations, no plantations. Anyone would say, “Let's go and see this plantation”. They didn't have any plantations in this area. Where we gonna put a plantation at? What were they going to grow? Is that something to think about? I guess - But, no, I know mine didn't and I know my grandfather was or should – I think my grandfather was born in I think it was 79 so he was a bit beyond slavery. His father I know and like I say in Lynchburg and to this day I don't know how he was able to accumulate all the land and houses and things that he had. My grandfather used to go down to the ________. But I know that he – probably its possible but there wasn't too much of that here in the Valley as they would call it, slavery and so forth. They'd hang ya. CR: And why would they do that? For what reasons would you – I know GP: If I looked at you in the wrong way, I mean, they would find a reason to do that. Are you from this area? CR: I am. GP: You are? OK. 'Cause they would hang you, no problem. They'd probably hang you. CR: Was that common? GP: During the '40s and '50s, they had no problem hanging you. CR: If you crossed the tracks I guess. GP: If you crossed the line, the line that had been established in any Southern state. This is a Southern state and they had no problem doing that. See, but there's one thing I think we knew what our boundaries were. LM: Oh yeah, and it ain't over. GP: Because we were having so much fun within those boundaries so that didn't bother us. It didn't bother us at all. But, yes, they would do that. They could find a reason to do that. CR: I guess white people come over to this side often for like your whiskeys or the women, entertainment. GP: Yeah, all of that. I mean – All of that and we have those type of clientele coming into this area but we couldn't go into that area and do that but they could come here and you know, that applied to law enforcement or whatever. LM: Let me tell you about this. My brother's wife, Elsie, she died. She had a kidney transfer operation and she looked like she was white. Do you remember her? GP: Yeah. LM: She couldn't get married in Roanoke because she was white. They had to go to Tennessee or somewhere. Somewhere, he said _______. One guy said well why don't y'all marry with a black �preacher. _______ got married. He thinks she white. I tell ya, Robert and her was together one time and he had two _______. She was chasing him in his car. He had momma's car. They was going out to _______. They got married around about the same time. She was chasing him in the Chevrolet. A white cop riding behind them on a motorcycle, stopped 'em, gave both of 'em a ticket and he said, “Wait a minute. What you doing chasing that nigger around”. She said, “That's my husband”. GP: I experienced similar things in West Virginia with my wife. She was fair, very, very fair and I got stopped several times. But like I say again, during that time we knew our boundaries and it didn't bother us because we had nice young ladies. LM: What state was that? GP: It was – It didn't bother us. CR: Did y'all have anyone here in Roanoke to look up to, any leaders or anybody active, activists or that type? GP: I know during the time that I was coming along, there were families and some individuals such as the Claytors down in Hamlet, I know he sort of influenced me. He was a frat brother of mine. Dr. Cumming who just died. I go way back with him. In fact, he was my first dentist. He was also a frat brother. But LM: Dr. Pinkett. GP: We had a whole lot of – and teachers. Many teachers were influential in terms of molding a whole of people. LM: Especially Miss Lawson, Mr. Poindexter. GP: That was all we had to turn to really. LM: Remember Miss Lawson and Miss Poindexter? They were the best English teachers. ________ Miss ______ was good. Do you remember her ______? GP: Probably so. LM: She say, you say “get” 500 times a day and he said the next day he would go up to 1000. _____ get, get, get. GP: But right here in Southwest, George Franklin – I grew up on 12th Street with him. He was about 5 or 6 years older than we were but he was – I know he was my mentor. I love the man. CR: I remember him. I knew him. GP: Him and Melvin LM: Best football players that ever came out of Southwest. GP: Yeah, but beyond that, beyond that he was – he had so much that if you listened to him and many times when we were growing up, I would listen – he picked me up and took me to college. LM: He's a good mentor. GP: And stayed right with me. LM: ________________ 0.33.54.4 GP: Yeah but he first of all and there are other men right here in this West End side that were good mentors. My minister, Reverend Hunter LM: Ben, his son graduated with us, Ben Hunter GP: A lot of men, a lot of men. Men that many children looked up to and that you respected. I thought that was good. LM: I don't remember Dr. Pinkett. They had he had a ______ years ago. Had a _____ too and then he moved out to Pinkett's Court. He's in this book right here. GP: I remember Dr. Pinkett, Dr. Rawlings. LM: ___________ GP &LM: [Both talking at the same time and over each other] LM: You guys used to go down there wrestling. GP: Yeah. �LM: Man, that wrestling was fake, nobody won. You'd get so sore. I said, I'm tired. Just give it up. GP: But they were never – but those type people were never my inspiration at all. And just the people in general. If you'd do something wrong, your mother and father knew about it before you got home. LM: Tear your butt up. GP: And, hey, you walked a very, very narrow line. LM: ______________ CR: Well, I hate to cut this short. We had a half an hour increments and we'd love to get these pictures. GP: These are the men _______ men that should be – 'cause they perceived it – they were before us. LM: This is where the, uh, what's that, the Tuskeegee fighters? CR: Airmen? LM: They came back to Roanoke and we was over there at the First Baptist Church ________. __________. That's a good picture there. GP: People look like Popeye. CR: Well, is there anything else that you all would like to say before we have to switch off. LM: I can tell you where my people came from. My mother, she came from Farmville, Virginia. CR: My mother's from Farmville. LM: My daddy came from Lynchburg. I got a picture of my daddy when he was 15. Wanna see it? CR: Sure. (rustling papers) I'm gonna stop the recorder and thank you all for participating. GP: I guess this is all about the library - [recording stops] � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Michell_Photo3.jpg 1a76ac81f2f12eea0f18b30a472eb152 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Michell_Photo5.jpg 0db125c1ad67d2fdd32a02c11dd00e55 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Mitchell_Photo1.jpg 86bf6a5d17fe8483a577fa62613c1414 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Mitchell_Photo2.jpg 4cf459461e7e06d27efb4837633582eb https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Mitchell_Photo6.jpg 1e35d23272f4f95267068bd92437afe1 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Mitchell_Photo7.jpg 11c4c1702747239998518a91103ca09b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2688/Mitchell_Photo8.jpg 5fd60cc43c42a7241975dd9a8e646032 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lawrence Mitchell Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lawrence Mitchell with Gilmore Perry Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 36:42 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lawrence Mitchell; Gilmore Perry; Cheryl Ramsey; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MitchellLawrence https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2687/LawrenceWilliam_[compressed].mp3 a36d34f5b321bfe8d46fb06f96c1c82b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with William Lawrence Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with William Lawrence Interviewer: Brent Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 16:22 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource William Lawrence; Brent Weigel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LawrenceWilliam https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2686/JohnsonLillie_[compressed].mp3 69ab723c91d00b14ffe2dba67ac7388a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lillie Johnson Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lillie Johnson Interviewer: Brent Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 25:12 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lille Johnson; Brent Weigel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JohnsonLillie https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/JohnsonAlice_[compressed].mp3 35b693de5c7c4bf313710fe80c55aebe https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo1.jpg 7e4dc306a74743e923f06acbda84b75f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo2.jpg 6c5f82842de35947260fc39e7bd245c4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo3-5.jpg 4793d7bf849735b982e0e81a32740bca https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo6.jpg 5293513c077992d4b05aadc60b2c9746 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo7.jpg 1ab7a930879d41ecdea6bfafa62f6f84 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo8.jpg df26ddade622164a0a3c7a9aca02a597 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo9.jpg 3ebe7bfa040efa4fbbf1fa24b8066803 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo11.jpg 03e16f5e1cb7c90fa0f61ba614ca7529 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2685/Johnson_Alice_Photo12.jpg 927c4e0a74e29b8f1ed4a5ba65a00ba8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Alice Johnson Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Alice Johnson Interviewer: Tanya Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 27:16 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alice Johnson; Tanya Weigel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JohnsonAlice https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2684/IngramWillieMae_[compressed].mp3 0266e93ae795e74ca30ae013a77bec73 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dr. Willie Mae Ingram Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Willie Mae Ingram Interviewer: Ashley Maynor Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 32:25 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Willie Mae Ingram; Ashley Maynor Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context IngramWillieMae https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2683/HinesMary_[compressed].mp3 9da8328fba6db5a68f8849157cc97937 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mary Hines with Geneva Ogden Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mary Hines with Geneva Ogden Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 49:04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mary Hines; Geneva Ogden; Arleen Ollie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HinesMary https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2682/FairfaxMildred_[compressed].mp3 1063742526195c3527dde0af7f15beb0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mildred Fairfax Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mildred Fairfax Interviewer: Ellie Conlin Date: 23 February 2008 Location: unknown Total Duration: 27:03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mildred Fairfax; Ellie Conlin Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FairfaxMildred https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2681/EnochAnnie_[compressed].mp3 8cc5c9f22f5883c4f854a9a79f1910e2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Annie Enoch Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Annie Enoch Interviewer: Brent Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Total Duration: 29:41 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Annie Davis Enoch; Brent Weigel Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EnochAnnie https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2680/DanielsMadeleine_[compressed].mp3 63424e49f6b276d7bd39193ef37bd8a6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2680/Daniels_Madeline.pdf 4a8e65c06b197135047e481c6c3966b5 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Madeline E. Daniels Interviewer: Brenda Finley Transcriber: Sarah Lavender Date of Interview: February 23rd, 2008 0:00:00.0 (static and papers rustling) 0:00:09.0 BF: I am Brenda Finley and today is the 23rd of February, 2008. I am interviewing Madeline E. Daniels. Ms. Daniels, when and where were you born? MD: I was born in Roanoke Virginia on Salem Avenue July the 4th 1926, I know I was. And then we moved from Salem Avenue to Norfolk Avenue when I was three years old. And we’ve been there ever since, my family. (laughs) 0:00:51.3 BF: Tell me a little about your parents and your brothers and sisters. MD: Well I had two brothers; Leroy and James. Leroy was two years older than me and I’m three years older than James. (coughs) BF: (talks while MD coughs) Describe your house. MD: We had a little wooden house. About four or five rooms at the most. And it was normal to us because that’s all we knew. (both laugh) And (pauses) And then later on when I, I remember building some more on to the house but I was (pauses then whispers) I don’t know. (pauses) And where there’s – BF: (starts to speak over her) What kind of activities did you participate in when you were living in Roanoke? MD: Well not too much because there wasn’t too much to do at that time, when I was 11 and 26, 27, 28. (speaks in a lower voice) is it, is it doing anything? 0:01:58.2 (unintelligible) 0:00:00.0 [Next track] BF: What kind of work did your family do? MD: Well my father was a railroad man. He worked on the railroad all his life until he retired, many years ago. 0:00:23.1 BF: Ok, how about your school life? Where did you go to school? MD: First it was a little wooden, a little wooden church when I first got to school on Arthur Avenue. I went there and from there to Harrison. And I went to the seventh grade. And then I was loosing sight in my eyes, but they didn’t completely go, thank God! They, and then I left school and I started to work in Roanoke, put to work, was not too much work (pauses) and so I left and went to New York in ’47. And I was there until ’92. And then – 0:01:00.3 BF: Ok, did, did anybody in your family ever go to college? MD: Not that, none of my immediate family, my – BF: What did you do at home at night, did you ever listen to the radio? Or? MD: That was all we listened to was the radio. Yes, we listened to the radio and uh �BF: (speaking over her) Did you remember when you got your telephone or your refrigerator? Do you remember things like that? (MD says yes in assent several times during this sentence) MD: Yes I do. We had, first we had lamp light, I remember when we first got our electricity. And then refrigerator, and a washing machine, and that was the happiest day of my mother’s life. (laughs) And uh BF: What kind of chores did you have to do? MD: My main thing was washing dishes and to help, to help keep the house clean. And my brother, they used to take out the garbage and whatever else they had to do. BF: Were there any stories or recipes or anything like that that were passed down through your family? 0:02:08.7 MD: Not really, really, because back then, then they cooked by a little pinch of this and a little pinch of that. And so I’m still doing that little pinch today. (coughs/laughs) 0:02:20.3 BF: Alright MD: So – BF: Did, um, your spouse or any of your children or your siblings ever serve in the military? MD: Hum, no where I, I - I was married in ’47. In New York and I (clears throat) And I was married thirty one years before my husband died in ’89. And um – then I lost my father also in ’89. And then I moved to Roanoke, back to Roanoke in ninety, in ’92 (pauses) to look after my mother. And then she passed in ’96. And I’ve been here ever since. BF: What are the, what’s, what are your fondest childhood memories? MD: Leaving Roanoke (laughs) BF: uh huh MD: None that I can, I think, yeah, leaving Roanoke. BF: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? MD: Well, let’s see, I worked when I went to New York. I worked for a pharmaceutical. And the people that owned the pharmaceutical I worked for them for forty, forty-three years, until I moved back home. 0:03:48.5 BF: Did you ever use the public library when you were in school? MD: Yes I did. Which was normal, I did a little while I was here. BF: What kind of cultural things, activities, happened around Roanoke while you were here? Did any musical events or bands or that kind of thing come in? MD: Yes they did. BF: While you were living here? MD: Yes they had bands and things that come in whilst I was living here but I was rather young so I didn’t participate in that too much. 0:04:23.7 BF: How has Roanoke changed over the years? MD: Oh it’s changed an awful lot because back there then (pauses) hum, we had the street cars, we had the dairy, we had the (pauses) back then we had lamp light. (speaks in �a low tone) Already said that didn’t we? (in a louder voice) It changed a lot! And awful lot! 0:04:48.1 BF: What kind of jobs were available? MD: It was not too many jobs available, that’s why I left, going to New York to find (pauses) well work. And which I did. Ah um – BF: Was there anything else that you’d like to share that maybe we didn’t cover? MD: Well, the churches! That was my biggest things in Roanoke when I was coming up. We went to Sunday School every Sunday morning. We had to be in Sunday School, we had to go back to church at twelve o’clock, and then in the afternoon we had to go back to church to BTU and then we also had a night service. And after the night service we had two little churches right down the street from where I lived and we went from one to the other. Mrs. Fanison’s church, we would go there until they turned out. And then we would go to Reverend Cole’s church and it would last maybe another hour, half and hour longer, we went there until it turned out, and then we came home! And so that was about it. But our biggest thing Sunday was church day, won’t no missing no churches. 0:06:05.2 BF: Well we thank you very much for participating in our oral history event here. MD: Why thank you, thank you. (in a low tone) Oh it was so much – [end of track] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Madeleine Daniels Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Madeleine Daniels Interviewer: Brenda Finley Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 8:22 (in two parts) Transcription prepared by: Sarah Lavender Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine E. Daniels; Brenda Finley; Sarah Lavender Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DanielsMadeleine https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/ClementsEvelyn_Charlotte_[compressed].mp3 de75c963b35de3cc8f7fa42df96264fd https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_docu1.jpg 17b6852f5407b8859a947c080e0377ba https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_docu2.jpg b0f73174f6a23ed71a2e245fe29ee402 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_docu3.jpg ca17b8e335ff36fc7664816efa53c58c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_photo1.jpg 27661d7501f1cced4b42a9c4fb90ae78 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_photo2.jpg 8d19888b78c4e8bfc32da013218e673d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_photo4.jpg cadfa15f8737e9908c8e47373ab8eda8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2679/Clements_photo5.jpg ba992063cdbcefa8873ff202f11bb20b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Charlotte and Evelyn Clements Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Charlotte and Evelyn Clements Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 36:38 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evelyn L. Clements; Charlotte Clements; Cheryl Ramsey Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ClementsCharlotte&Evelyn https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2678/BucknerGladys_[compressed].mp3 11c44c9338d92acbdfced5ca3f302f4e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2678/BucknerInterview.pdf fe1735631a7d87afadf0717b518b00ca PDF Text Text Interviewee: Gladys Hilton Buckner Interviewer: Tanya Weigel Transcriber: Krissy Price Note: Interviewer had issues with the microphone at the beginning of the interview, causing feedback. TW: My name is Tanya Weigel and I’m interviewing Gladys Hilton Buckner at Jerusalem Baptist Church in Roanoke, Virginia. It’s February 23, 2008. TW: Where and when were you born? GB: I was born in Prince Edward County Virginia December 17th 1936. TW: How long have you lived in Roanoke? GB: I've been in Roanoke...I've been in Roanoke since I was about 18 months old. And I've been here ever since, and after I graduated from high school I went to New York for about a year, and then I returned back to Roanoke, and I've been here ever since. TW: Tell me about your parents, and brothers, and sisters. GB: Ok. I have one brother, he's younger, and my mom's downstairs, and well I just had a good life. I've had a good life and I'm still having a good life. Well, I went to school and graduated from Lucy Addison High School in 1955. After graduation, that winter I was a debutante, and I worked. I worked at Burrell Hospital, and then, well I got married. I had three children. I worked at GE for 29 years. I'm retired and just enjoying life. TW: What was your family life...home life like growing up in Roanoke? GB: Oh...It was good. I enjoyed my childhood. TW: What kind of activities did you do? GB: Well...church, Sunday school, vacation bible school, and well, then growing up, before I started school, I would come out here to the church. Mrs. Hunter who was the pastor's wife, she had, well we called it play school. And I would come out to the play school, and that's other than you know being in the neighborhood with the other children in the neighborhood, come out here to Miss Hunters' play school, and just enjoyed myself. We rode our bicycles, we skated, and we played. Then when I did grow on up, I would say the children now they really don't know what playing is. Because we could take a stick or a leaf and we would really have a good time. We would have tea parties, and we got along very well. Then you know winter was winter then. And it was snow. Then, snow did not keep us from going to school. We went to school and teachers when they had their meetings we were over in the classroom doing assignments and they had their meeting and things have changed. And you know when my children grew up they, you know, teachers had a meeting they were out of school. We went to school snow, rain, sleet, whatever. We went to school, and when there was snow when I was a child on �14th Street we would sleigh ride because that was a hill and we would sleigh ride and we just had a lot of fun. And I really enjoyed...I enjoyed growing up. TW: What was your house like? Did you have a yard or...? GB: Oh yes we had a yard. We had a front yard. We had a back yard. We had a swing in the porch, and well I enjoyed that swing. TW: Did your family sit there together? GB: Yeah. And we ate meals together and that's something families very rarely do nowadays, but when my children were growing up we sat down at the table. We said our blessing and we ate together, and then, they grew up, finished school, went their separate ways, but when they, you know, when they do come we all...we eat together, and I always have Thanksgiving dinner, and then my mother at one time you know, she would always have Christmas dinner and we always went to mom’s for Christmas dinner, and it's just like a family reunion. We just have a good time. TW: Did you have extended family living nearby growing up? GB: Oh yeah. My grandparents. Well I was...well I was around my grandparents a lot because my mom worked and I was with them. Her youngest siblings, before they grew up and got married and moved out. You know I basically grew up around them, and just had a lot of fun. TW: What type of work did your family do? GB: Well, my grandmother didn't work. My grandfather worked for the railroad, and basically mama was a hairdresser. So that's basically what she did. TW: Did anyone in your family attend college? GB: Yeah, my cousins and my husband. He went to school for a while, but he didn't finish. He went to college about a year. After he got out of the service. TW: What type of work did you and your husband do? GB: Well he started out working at the veterans and then he went to GE to work. And that's where I worked. I worked out in the factory. Well we both did. I was a wiremen, assembled the wire, and he was a wiremen also. TW: Then he was in the service? GB: Yeah, my husband he did. Yeah he was in the navy for four years. TW: Anyone else in your family in the military? GB: My grandson and then cousins, and my brother was in the service. My uncle, my father was in World War II. �TW: What is your fondest childhood memory? GB: Oh gracious I have a lot of those. TW: Well that's fine. GB: Yeah I do. Ok. I enjoyed...ok...my mother's youngest brother he was like three years older than me. And he would shoot marbles, and I liked to shoot marbles. He taught me how to shoot marbles. Well as a matter of fact he taught me how to do a lot of things. But I did enjoyed shooting marbles. And there was a game called Jack rocks. I liked playing Jack rocks. And I liked skating also, but I had a lot of fun. TW: What type of cultural events were happening when you were growing up around here? GB: Alright...We would go...every year there was a May Day program, and there was an auditorium, we would go to the auditorium to see plays. And then we used to go Maher Field, Victory Stadium was called Maher Field then. We would go there for different things. Alright like there was always...oh what do you call it. It’s been so long I can't remember exactly everything. Oh it was like May Day and it was...they had a pole and they had the streamers, and different color streamers, and we would wrap the May Pole. Then there was different things. There were ball games. We did that. TW: Who were the main community leaders at that time growing up? GB: Let's see there was a man. Ok. The scout leader… There was Paul Scott and then there was a lady named Juanita Jones. She was this Girl Scout leader, and wait a minute there was somebody else. Paul Scott, Juanita, and it was somebody else too. And of course Reverend Hunter. He was the pastor here then, and there was a pastor here before Reverend Hunter, but I am really not too familiar with him. I've heard...I saw him, but I wasn't that familiar with him. But Reverend Hunter was the pastor that I was most familiar with, and I basically looked at him as the leader of Southwest because he did...he really did you know. He made the community aware of things that was going on in the city, and well I will always remember Reverend Hunter. I say Reverend Hunter was the father of the Southwest. TW: Did you have any other role models in your life? GB: Reverend Hunter other than Reverend Hunter. Ok. My mother's oldest sister. She died when I was young, but I always visualized her because, I guess, because during the summer she would come and get me and take me to Baltimore. But she dies when I was about nine or ten years old. But I remember her, and then my mother's two younger sisters, see I was around them a lot. They were more or less, I guess, sisters because they carried me around with them a lot. And the youngest one was very mischievous. Yeah. TW: What types of stores and businesses did you family go to around here? �GB: Oh. Grocery store at that time it was like Heironimus, N.W. Pugh’s, and let's see there was Phelps and Armstead, and I can't think if there was another. And then they would go down to the market, but yeah. TW: What types of jobs were available for people at that time? GB: Well mostly...it was, well for the women it was mostly domestic work. Well, it’s still domestic. They worked in homes, and like cleaning in the hospitals, cleaning. I still say domestic work. And the men they mostly...most of the men worked for the railroad, and then there was another plant here all I know is that they called it the silk mill. But I can't tell you what they you know what they produced or anything like that. But that was mostly what was available then. TW: What do you think are the biggest changes you've seen in Roanoke since your childhood? GB: The biggest changes? Well integration was one big change. And then I guess, well there has been a lot of changes like, you know, the malls came and alright. When I was growing up there was transportation. Streetcars. I used to like to ride streetcars, changes like that. Streetcars and then the buses came, so the buses are still here but you know that...See, when I'm sitting at home by myself I can think of a lot of things, but when you need to you can't remember. Basically... TW: Is there anything else you'd like to mention about what you think about Roanoke or your neighborhood here? GB: Well, the neighborhood... I don't know, it seems like this was a vibrant neighborhood, but it seems like in the past few years, even now, it sorta pushed this neighborhood aside. See a lot of things that's going on in the other neighborhoods, it seems like the city has just more or less said forget Southwest. But basically it's a good place to live. TW: Any other memories? GB: Oh I have lots of memories. Oh yeah I have a lot of memories. TW: Any you'd like to share? GB: Yeah, I still have friends that live up here. But you know basically it all...everybody has basically moved out of Roanoke, and some… they leave but they come back. I guess because of the housing that is why a lot of them are not in Southwest. They in Northwest, Northeast. The majority they come...when they do come back they basically go to the county. And see Roanoke...I don't know...well, the majority they come...when they do come back they basically go to the county. And see Roanoke...I don't know. There is something...well I feel my friends that live in the county they say Roanoke is not...they say Roanoke is really basically you paying, paying, paying taxes. Your taxes constantly go up, but they're not getting what they're paying for, so… I wouldn't know what they pay in the county because I don't live in the county. Now this is...ok I have a friend that lives in northern Virginia, and she tells me Roanoke is money hungry, but what are they doing with the money? Said look at Salem, said Salem has moved on and Roanoke is doing nothing. I told her I said they're doing something. She said �no what are they doing? She said seems like there is in fighting. I told her, maybe so I don’t know. But she says well I'm trying to think. No she still has relatives here, but her parents...I think her parents are deceased. She says, I retired, but I am in Virginia but I'm not coming back to Roanoke. She said I'll stay in northern Virginia. She worked in D.C. I think she worked in D.C. and New York, and she says Virginia...she says Roanoke, Virginia...she says Roanoke really should be on the map. And I said we are on the map. She says but...she says, my friends consider Roanoke is country. I said Roanoke is not country. She said, yes it is. She says Roanoke. She says Roanoke is just not moving. She says Roanoke is at a standstill. She says Roanoke hasn't improved too much since I left. She’s I've been gone thirty some years. I said well yes you're right. She says I left from high school. I said well that's more than thirty years you know. She says yeah but she says, no…Roanoke is not it's not growing. And she says Roanoke is just at a standstill. She says what does Roanoke have to offer? I said well there's a lot to do if you want to do something. I said there’s the symphony and there are plays and everything. TW: Do you think there is a time when that changed? That you remember? GB: Now I'm going to say this. Revitalization, I think has a lot to do with Roanoke not expanding. And now like the Civic Center, Magic City Ford and all those. See, that was a neighborhood. People lived down there and now you see what there the Civic Center, Magic City Ford. And I think that drove a lot of the residents of Roanoke out of Roanoke. I don't know. I guess because I grew up here and while I tried New York, but New York is cold. The people in Roanoke are friendly, and when you're just out of high school and you go to a place like New York. That's a ... that's a drastic change. And see I couldn't adjust to it. I'm the type of person if I see you, I say hello. I say hello to you and you know what are you speaking to me for, you know. That type of attitude, and you live next door to each other and you don't even you know nothing. You don't even speak. I just couldn't adjust. So, I said I'll try it. I tried it and I said no, this is not the place for me, so I came back. I've been here ever since, and it just so happened that my husband...well see we met in high school, and he went into the service he came back. Now he lived away for a while, but he came back. So that's it, and the majority of us, well the majority of my friends, we stayed, some left and came, some didn't and but the ones that I was more closer to, they, you know, they stayed here. A couple said no I'm not going anywhere else. They stayed right here you know. The majority of us are family oriented, so we don't go too far from family. Family and friends, and you go to a place like New York you don't find that. TW: Anything else? GB: No TW: Thank you � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gladys Hilton Buckner Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gladys Hilton Buckner Interviewer: Tanya Weigel Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 28:48 Transcription prepared by: Krissy Price Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gladys Hilton Buckner; Tanya Weigel, Krissy Price Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BucknerGladys https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2677/BrownBarbara_[compressed].mp3 6a9a4ae3b25869c2ff25450cd3b4d58d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Barbara Earley Brown Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Barbara Earley Brown Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 23 February 2008 Location: unknown Total Duration: 42:06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Barbara Brown; Arleen Ollie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownBarbara https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2676/AndersonSheila_[compressed].mp3 c4aab824fc65e45222c48f64ac8d49e4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2676/AndersonSheilaMae.pdf 638f63eabbed8a6cf59362345b999eed PDF Text Text Interviewee: Sheila Mae Anderson Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Transcriber/Editor: Amy Burns CR: SA: Okay my name is Cheryl Ramsey and the date is February 23, 2008. I’m gonna be interviewing Sheila Mae Anderson and we’re at Jerusalem Baptist Church. And I guess my first question for you ma’am is where and when were you born? I was born April 15, 1947 at Number 4, Ninth Street Southwest. CR: SA: And are there any other streets or neighborhoods you’ve ever lived in? Yes, I lived at 1008 Jackson Avenue Southwest and from there to Number 38 Fourteenth Street Southwest and from there to Hurt Park at 121 Seventeenth Street Apartment 1 Southwest. CR: SA: All in Southwest? All in Southwest, until I got married and moved away. CR: SA: And I’m sorry wait what was your birth date? April 15, 1947. CR: SA: Okay and do you what’s your husband’s name or your spouse’s name? James Rosco Anderson. CR: SA: And children? I have four children: William, Troy, Shannon, and Tamika. CR: SA: And do you remember or what are their birthdays? Oh yes. William’s birthday is 8/31/63. Troy’s birthday is 3/12/68. Shannon’s is 4/8/70. Tamika’s is 6/12/74. CR: SA: I think I went to school with Tamika. You did? (laughs) CR: SA: Okay. She graduated at Clemson. CR: SA: Clemson ’92. Yeah. CR: SA: Yeah, I went to school with her. Okay so tell me a little bit about your parents and or brothers and sisters. Well there was only five girls. CR: Okay 1 �SA: I’m the oldest of the five girls. I have a sister called her name is Rosemary but her nickname is Dusty. I have a sister named Doris Ann her nickname was Feefee. I have another sister named Annette her nickname was Moody. And my baby sister name is Louis we call her BooBau(??). 0:02:48.8 CR: And you didn’t have a nickname? SA: And I’m the only one that don’t have a nickname. CR: SA: And do you have any other extended family members that live near by in the area? Well all of us are here except for my sister Rosemary. She lives in Brooklyn, New York. CR: SA: Okay. My mother’s still livin’ my father’s passed. CR: SA: What was your mother’s name? Myrtle Lyn Bolden Fatherfen (??) CR: Okay, and describe just like your house and where you grew up and just how your childhood was like here. Well at the time my mother was single parent raising five girls. From what I could remember we lived in like a three-bedroom well I mean a two-bedroom house. She did, it was sorta rough coming up cause like I said my mother was a single parent trying to raise five girls. She took in days working ironing and stuff like that to support us and my family, my grandmother also helping my aunts and all them helped with our yeah. So I mean we didn’t have a bad thing, I’ve never been hungry, and I know she loves us with all her heart. So, to me that’s everything. SA: CR: SA: What was your child like your childhood like around here or your school? Oh Yes I went to Loudon Avenue Elementary School, Harrison and Booker T. and Addison. It was beautiful you know we all played games and we didn’t have television or stuff like that but we all gathered ‘round on Sundays and after coming from Sunday School and Church which we all had to go. And everything, we all went to Bible School we all went to Sunday School we all participated in the programs and things that we had at the church. To me it was better coming up then than it is now because now there’s television and all that electronics and as a family we were very close. We’d visit our mother and she took us to visit all her friends stuff like that and Sunday we’d go have dinner with different family members and vice versa. CR: SA: Did you all have a car or did you have to walk? No we walked, walked everywhere or went on the bus. 2 �CR: SA: Okay, and is that how you got to school, on the bus? Yes, yes Roanoke City Bus at that time. We also we used to have movie nights she would take us to the movies and stuff like that. CR: SA: At the game theater(??) At the Virginia Theater. We would have family nights she would take us the Virginia Theater. On Saturdays we did our chores and everything. Our chores changed from week to week. One week I had dishes and all the next week I might have to wash or iron old clothes, whatever we all had chores. CR: SA: And did you, where did you work coming up? Roanoke Memorial Hospital. CR: Okay and were you allowed to stay home after school or did you have anywhere to go after school? Not really, most of the time she made us we had to study, had to study, all the stuff like that. There really wasn’t anywhere to go, well I didn’t think there was. She didn’t allow us to spend the night with other family members you know other people. It was like she kept us all together. SA: CR: SA. And what how far schooling did you were you able to complete? I completed up till ninth grade. CR: SA: Okay, and did anybody in your family attend college, or go past? Oh yes, my youngest sister, well two of my sisters. My oldest sister Rosa graduated from college and my sister Lois. CR: SA: What school did they go to? Well, my sister Rosa graduated from Addison and she went to Virginia Western completed an education, and also Lois she graduated from PH and she did hers through Virginia Western. 0:06:58.1 CR: Okay, did you have any stories that are passed down from your mother down to you that you might have passed down to your children. SA: Well I had some, I was telling them about me well like I stayed with my grandmother and how I’ve always been in this church all my life, and we used to go from on Wednesday night we went to a prayer meeting and it used to be up at the Recco House(??). We used to have our meetings and things there. I guess I remember all the older members and they all know me because of my grandmother and I was in this church all my life and there was a store on the corner of (??) and we all used to go there summertime we went to Bible School that would last from like 9 to 5 (laughs) where we all went and we had Christmas plays with Ms. Gertrude Childers was the superintendent of this church and I have fond memories of her because I thought she was the greatest lady cause every child in the church everybody in the church had a part no one was left out. 3 �However small or large we all that participated. I was baptized here by Reverend Hunter(??) and I’ve been leaving and coming back, I’ve always been back you know in this church when we moved away when I got married and moved to Delaware and I came back it was still my home. CR: SA: When did you come back to Roanoke? Um in 60, uh 75, no I’m sorry in 77. I came back and I’ve been back ever since. CR: SA: Why did you come back? I missed home. (laughs) I’m a spoiled mamma’s child. CR: SA: And where’s your or did you have any children or your husband in the military? My husband’s been in the military. CR: SA: Okay, did he fight any wars, okay just in ? No, my youngest son’s been in the military for and he lives in Kansas now. My youngest daughter, my only daughter was born in Delaware the rest of my childrens were born here in Virginia. 0:09:24.8 CR: And did your do you remember any businesses or shops that you all frequented here in Roanoke or that you? SA: There was the pet stores and Ms. Libby’s. This used to be the Commodore Inn the Shopwell and Mose Assick(??) those are the stores and all they knew us from children. CR: SA: Are all those buildings still here I know the Commodore is? The Mose Assick(??) is still there. The Commodore I think is still there Mose Essa(??) Store has moved from it’s a church now. It used to be on Salem Avenue. It’s now a church but they moved the shop way out on Patterson’s so it’s still there. There’s Chuck’s Seafood used to be a laundrymat and I don’t know going to the laundrymat throwing away the redfire(??) going there to wash and dry my clothes. The Williamson Drug Store was on 13th Street. Everyone used that drug store. Let’s see, there used to be a gas station it is what they call a fillin’ station was right there on 11th Street and Sidmore(??) Avenue was owned by Turner’s. There was this restaurant, can’t remember its name, was right here on Salem Avenue. Can’t remember the name right now. It was a black restaurant on right there on Salem Avenue and I guess it’s what is on the ten hundred block. CR: SA: Did you go to the I guess Gainsboro area to go out for a nightlife? Oh we used to go to the “Y”, to the “Y”, we used to go the “Y” Orange Avenue skatin’ is terrible(??). Little dances at the other Y the (boy’s Y) in the evenings we went there. CR: Was there ever a time when you recall not going on a certain side of town or you are not allowed to, do remember any? 4 �SA : (Can’t understand) I really wasn’t caught up in that at the time but I do remember my cousins talking about that like Carvin(??) and Addison, I knew they didn’t get along at the time. I remember that and the southwest boys weren’t allowed to talk to the northwest girls and the southwest girls weren’t allowed to talk to the northwest boys. CR: SA: Do you have any child memories that stand out that are either good or bad ? I had a fairly, a pretty good life growin’ up. Well, like I said, I wasn’t rich or anything like that but I think I got good memories of it. I made a lot of friends I knew a lot of people. I guess from me being as old as I am people say I know people from all over but I’m just a person that well I never meet strangers. I think that’s the good part, a good thing. CR: SA: And what kind of work have you done throughout your life. Nursing assistant work. 0:13:00.1 CR: Okay, do you still do that? SA: I still do that. CR: SA: And you’re still at Carilion? Oh no I’m at the VVC, the Virginia Veteran’s Care Center. CR: SA: And do you use the public library? Yes. CR: SA: Which one do you use? The Gainsboro one. CR: SA: And what do you do? I get books and stuff and when I have my grandchildren in the summer time so we, it’s an outing for us. Because my daughter is a teacher and when she leaves instructions for us, we have to go by. (chuckles) In the summer time my children from Kansas come in you know we go to the library, we go to the park, we got to the theaters we just a lot of family things together. CR: SA: Do you remember any cultural events during your childhood or teenage years? Oh yes one time we was not allowed to go to the Roanoke theater to me this was awful I only went four or five times I didn’t like it because you had to walk up a lot of steps. And by the time you got to the top the movie was over it seemed like. I remember going downtown you couldn’t drink out of certain fountains, couldn’t use certain bathrooms, couldn’t try on clothes stuff like that. I can remember my mother had to measure our foot with a string and that’s how they’d size our shoes up. You couldn’t just go in the store and try on shoes like we can now. 5 �CR: SA: Did you have to do that often is it something that you knew what you could and could not do? Yeah, because your parents would tell you what you could do. CR: SA: Did you ever ask or wonder why? Oh yeah ‘cause he said we was black and they were white and they has signs up “Colored” and “White” and I guess I was young and didn’t understand but there was one A&P Store we used to be a (??) and I think practically every child would have to sit in it so you knew not to move from that area until your parents come back. CR: SA: Where was that? At the A&P Grocery Store. They made their groceries well there was five of us she couldn’t I guess carry five girls around in the store. She just let us sit there and the cashiers knew us so we knew not to act up (chuckles). CR: SA: Where was that? At the A&P. It was downtown Salem Avenue. It is now where the new bank it now. So we knew all the stores downtown and all the proprietors they knew us because, like I say, your parents, well my mother took us downtown every Saturday wif her so when we went around, we knew where to buy the eggs, where to buy this that because she taught us how to what you buy out of which area. 0:16:04.9 CR: There are areas of the store that you could only go in? SA: Yeah, was certain areas that we bought eggs from one area. This one particular place you just bought all eggs. You went on the other side and bought your fish you bought that from the fish market. They had something called the hallow market you bought certain meats you could buy bags of meats would last about $10-15 to last for a month. So you could buy that supplies. I can remember I miss that because you could go downtown and to me it was beautiful to go downtown and just walk around CR: SA: It wasn’t as many buildings. Yeah. But it was just beautiful, it was. And I mean the people knew you. You went into Cress’s or Krogers or McClellans(??) those people there everybody knew everybody even though they was black and white but even the white people knew you they knew you as a child and they you didn’t know the difference in the color. It didn’t feature the difference. CR: Okay. Did you have experience with you knew that you were different or somebody made it known that you were different, other than the signs? No, I never had that thank God (laughs). Did you have any community leaders or role models? Oh, yes, I think Alice Johnson, I think Alice Cooper Johnson, she was my ideal person. SA: CR: SA: 6 �CR: SA: What does she do? She’s retired from Housing Authority now. CR: SA: Okay. Ms. Virginia Hunter. She was a teacher. I thought the world of her. Like I said Gertrude Childress was my, quite a few. CR: SA: You mean they were your role models. Yes. CR: Were there any community leaders that, activists or things in Roanoke at the time that people were fightin’ for I guess your Martin Luther Kings and things like that in Roanoke? No, not that I remember. Okay. SA: CR: 0:18:13.0 CR: Do you remember if any entertainers came to Roanoke? If so, who are some of the people who came? SA: Let me see, James Brown, Little Richard, oh, I seen all them. CR: SA: Where did they perform? At the Star City. CR: Okay and that was before the Civic Center was there, what was there at the Civic Center before they put the Civic Center up? It was houses, it was part of northeast and Star City was on Wells Avenue. It was considered part of Henry Street. SA: CR: SA: How do you think Roanoke has changed over the years or some of the more bigger things that have changed either socially with people or things that have popped up businesses? Businesses have popped up, like the Dunk’s Hotel (??). I was chaperoned(??) as a teenager I remember going to those and getting hot dogs, to me, they had the greatest hot dogs. When they took the Virginia Theater away, that was sad for me because we didn’t have nowhere to go. CR: SA: Where did you go after that or what did you do after that? They had, I think they had opened up the American Theater, we could go there but it wasn’t like the Virginia Theater. CR: SA: Were there other landmarks there that you hated to see go? At the time, when the Virginia Theater was there they had High Street Baptist Church was across the street from it and all the doctors, Dr. Ryan, Dr. Lauden(??), was all, no Dr. Lauden(??) was on Gainsboro, but the doctors were 7 �there the Virginia Sanitary Barber Shop the Brooks Pharmacy(??) all of those were there. CR: SA: Did you remember Dr. Pinkard, I think was his name, he was a doctor. I have heard of Dr. Penn(??) was there I remember him and the Clays(??) but they were on Gainsboro. The Claytor Brothers(??), they were on Gainsboro. CR: I guess one of the questions here is: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills? Yes, my uncle worked there. SA: CR: SA: Do you remember how that affected the community? Pretty bad, ‘cause I remember my uncle worked there and you know he was a person that had saved so it didn’t really affect him as bad and everything but I remember people talking about it ‘cause they didn’t have jobs and that was. CR: SA: What did they do after that as far as jobs? I guess they picked up whatever they could at the time. CR: Okay, and do you remember the types of jobs that were available for men and women in Roanoke? It wadn’t that many. Not that I can remember not that many. SA: CR: SA: The railroad was that employment? Yeah, the railroad was here but it was they was always laying the black men off seemed like, they were you know work for maybe four or five months and they’d get laid off or something like that. CR: What do you have anything else that we might not have covered that you want to share or any stories? Only thing I say I tell everybody that they in high school to stay there and get an education it’s the most important thing in the world. I regret that I didn’t finish school but I know that I still can go but I keep putting it on the back burner but I’m gonna pick it up and I’m going to finish and get my GED. And I tell them that is the most important thing and go as far as they can go. SA: CR: SA: Why do you think that? Because education is the key and it opens up doors and I’ve learned that from my daughter graduating from high school. Well all of my children graduated, every one of ‘em and I’ve had two graduated from college and I’m very, very proud of them and I’ve seen how hard it is to not have an education is to get a job and nowadays you need an education just to wash dishes so that’s telling these young children they in school stay there, get that piece of paper you know even if they have to go to night school please get that paper. 8 �CR: Well, I really appreciate you talking to me, Ms. Anderson and if you have anything else that you wanna let us know, you can contact the library. [End of interview.] 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Sheila Anderson Subject The topic of the resource Hurt Park-West End Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Sheila Anderson Interviewer: Cheryl Ramsey Date: 23 February 2008 Location: Jerusalem Baptist Church Total Duration: 23:17 Transcription prepapred by: Amy Burns Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sheila Anderson; Cheryl Ramsey; Amy Burns Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AndersonSheila https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2675/BullingtonJames1_[compressed].mp3 c262fce7e90ebd016c037ee9efbc331b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2675/BullingtonJames2_[compressed].mp3 4d0f417e618c9391e59748eb17739807 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2675/Bullington_James.jpg cca09b31c996b27da31a7ff973fedb32 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with James Bullington Subject The topic of the resource South Roanoke-Downtown Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with James Bullington Interviewer: Ashley Maynor and Pam Young Date: 5 February 2008 Location: Private residence of James Bullington Total Duration: 59:75 (in two parts) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5 February 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James Bullington; Ashley Maynor; Pam Young Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BullingtonJames https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2674/WolfeVirginia.1.mp3 9f5b7202365bbee874a5cc75acb9cfc6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2674/WolfeVirginia.jpg 2556f6ed2067de5c885109bd8fcdde37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia Wolfe Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia Wolfe Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 29 August 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:02:18 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 29 August 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Virginia Wolfe; Kellie Thomas Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WolfeVirginia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2673/SmithAByron.1.mp3 448cc5f79b5235bd3c807b95883bf397 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2673/SmithAByron.jpg 9f119522c8d6efe2e5c42ac7460a0198 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2673/Smith_Byron_A._Oral_Histories.pdf 95416d018883c4b0c146ec410aaa88ac PDF Text Text Interviewee: Mr. A. Byron Smith Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Transcriber: Caylin Wigger I: Ok, it is August 29, 2007. I’m here with Mr. A. Byron Smith. Birth date February 10th, 1919. Ok, Mr. Byron, where were you born? ABS: I was born in Danville, Virginia. I: Ok. Now were you born in a hospital, or were you born somewhere else? ABS: I was born in the home. Yes. No, I was born at home. I: Was that your parents’ home? ABS: Yes, it was, yes. I: Ok. ABS: My grandmother and my grandfather actually reared me. My grandmother’s name, and I’m known as Mrs. Sally Lowman(?)’s grandson. You have to say all of that: Mrs. Sally Lowman’s grandson. And, Sally’s spelled S-A-L-L-Y. I: Ok. ABS: But everybody did that… But everybody called her Mrs. Sally Lowman. I: Ok ABS: And she was a wonderful person. Because of my grandmother, I can remember when I was two years old. I: Well, why don’t you share that memory? ABS: Well, I tell you what, I have a picture of it when I was standin’ up in the baby carriage like that, and my grandmother showed it to me when I was three. It was taken when I was two, and she showed and she kept me alive with that at all times. I: Mmhm. ABS: In fact, my grandmother writ me and she writ me so that everybody called me Mrs. Sally Lowman’s grandson. Not Sally Lowman, but Mrs. Sally Lowman. And everybody referred to her as Mrs. Sally Lowman. I: And what was your grandfather’s name? ABS: My grandfather’s name was… is… he was a reverend, but he was a slave boy. I: Mmhm. ABS: Reverend King Solomon Lowman. King S… (laughs) I: That’s a strong name. ABS: I… when they… and he told me that when they were comin’ out of slavery I: Mmhm. ABS: His mother says, “Come on, show ‘em. Let’s get all ready. I said don’t know where we goin’, but (sings) come on, show ‘em. Let’s go.” And she stopped and told my grandfather, said, “I named you King Solomon because I want you to be a wise man, do you understand?” I: Mmhm. ABS: And he never saw his father, because… but he was about fifteen when that happened. But somehow or another he came and got enough education, and he went to Hampton Institute. I: Ok. ABS: And that’s… and he graduated. And he came back, and he was a minister. And, uh, he had quite a reputation as a minister (whispers) quite a reputation. �I: Yeah, and what church did he preach at? ABS: Well, that, one permanently was Camp Grove Baptist Church in Danville. Camp Grove Baptist. I: Ok. Now, um, did he ever tell you any stories about growing up, um, in the times that he grew upABS: Every day! (Chuckles) Yea. I: Can you share some of those with us? ABS: Yes, um, the first thing… my grandfather, he preached at Camp Grove for s… well, not seventy years, but uh, pretty close to something like f… forty-two years? He was seventy-two when he retired. I: Mmhm. ABS: And, uh… as a results… every day that… (mumbles)... I either sat ‘n listened to his stories or listened to my grandmother. My grandmother monitored my life. I mean monitored. And… this… I still remembers she says, “Come, I wanna tell you something.” She always sat on this side, and she always took this hand, and she says, “I have something I wanna tell you, and when I tell it to you - don’t forget it.” I: Mmhm. ABS: That’s right. Oh, I can remember…one… I was buttonin’ up my jacket, ya know, and I button it up, and it was crooked like that up. She says, “Come. Let me tell you something, and when I do – don’t forget it.” She says, “This is the way you must button up your shirt. Say… you start at the bottom, put both ends together, and then reach the first button hole, and then you on track. And you hold it like that and you go up, and you always come out right. ‘Cause, if you start off right…” And she says, “I want you to do this in your lifetime, too. If you start off right, you end up right. Don’t forget it.” My grandma was really a wonderful woman. (mumbles) You want a grandmother story? I: Sure, absolutely. ABS: Ok. (clears throat) Because I have about three thousand of ‘em. I: (laughs) ABS: A-And, really, uh, my wife told me, “Don’t talk about your grandmother. Just stop it.” See, because, I talk too much, but when my grandmother… after she told me about buttonin’ up this, and keepin’ it straight on line, I: Mmhm. ABS: And the things that followed, her… her talkin’ with me, and she would always sit down, and my grandma never raised her voice at me, but she… when I had done something wrong, she whipped me. We had a willow tree in our backyardI: Mmhm. ABS: And when she, when she was ready to whip me, and she know I act mad, and yell atcha and all that. She just went out there and start pullin’ on those switches, and pullin’ ‘em down, and when she get enough of ‘em, she put ‘em in her hand, and pull it through that like that. I: Mmhm. ABS: I could tell when you… when she pulled the switches through then leave them off and they’re platted (?). And she come after me, and she really maul (?) me. And she would always say… And I would just…and… (muttering)... she whip me hard, I would cry. I: Mmhm. �ABS: And… uh… And I settle down from cryin’, she says now, “Don’t do that any more.” Same tone of voice. Same tone of… I says, “Yes, Grandma.” And I tried to keep her word, but if I didn’t, I got one of those spankin’s. But… uh… when she got ready to tell me something, she always sat on this side of me, and took this hand, and… let me, I’ll look, go up a little higher, um until a new story’s, um… at another stage of my life. I: Mmhm. ABS: Um, (clears throat) You know what happened to boys and girls when they get right at… thirteen, twelve, thirteen years old, on up to fourteen. Now, human nature’s the same thing, they start lookin’ at little boys different, and little girls, I: (laughs) ABS: The boys start lookin’ at them different. I: Mmhm. ABS: Ok. Now before I start doin’ that, and it real is about two days before, my grandmother came, and she sat on this side. She says, “I wanna tell you something, and when I tell you – don’t forget it.” She says, “Don’t ever go out with a dumb girl. Don’t forget it. Or a dumb woman. Don’t forget it.” Listen to this, she says, “I tell you this because a dumb girl or a dumb woman can get a smart man, don’t forget it, but a dumb man will never get a smart woman.” Yep. I: Oh, yeah. ABS: (laughs) You - do you agree with that? I: I do. ABS: A dumb woman can get… she says so, “I want you to be a smart man, don’t forget it.” And watch this… she, she told me that… two days later, two boys, my classroom…they came during the down, said, “Man,” say, “come on,” say, “we gonna get some girls, you gonna (mutter), we went out last night, he got three girls, and I got two girls. We goin’ out and get some more girls tonight.” Says, “come on,” and I step back (chuckles), he says, “C’mon man, go, you wanna go?” and I says, “No, I don’t wanna go with you.” Forgot all about what my grandmother had told me, I: Mmhm ABS: But they just frightened me with the way they… they were acting to get them girls. I: Mmhm ABS: And then they said, “Such and such a girl got the bad disease and such and such a girl gon’ have a baby.” And I said, “No, I don’t want to hear that.” But they went on, and… it… I realized my grandmother just told me about this thing of getting girls and going out with girls, so that… that’s stuck with me, I don’t know how much… because… them boys and the way they were talking about the girls that they had and how many they were gonna get… so I just stayed away from them. I wasn’t interested (laughs) in any girls. I: (laughs) ABS: But that was… that was one of the stories she told me. But she t… told all about me when… when she knew that there was going to be a change in my life, or when something was going to come around. And that’s why I was known as Mrs. Sally Lowman’s grandson. When I started to school, I: Mmhm. ABS: My grandmother, um, she took me to a commercial photographer. Commercial photographer, and you have no idea what they look like then, but at that time, the commercial �photographer set you on the bench, make the room dark, pull something up over his head, and tell you to look such and such thing, and he had the light that would flash. I: Mmhm. ABS But I, my grandmother said me to they (?)… that the professional photographer to get my picture at age six because I was startin’ school on Monday. I have that picture. And I… I just love my grandmother so much. Even today, there’s some nights that I dream that I was with my grandmother or I saw her… I: Mmhm ABS:And it’s just as fresh in my mind now, as it was then, but she would always says, “I’m gonna tell you something, and when I tell you – don’t forget it.” I: And you never did. ABS: I’m telling you, now if we got a whole lot of other things, I: (laughs) ABS: (muttering) What time I’m supposed to be at the library? I and BS: (laugh) ABS: But, um, my grandmother was just so, (mutters) so when I started the school… I: Mmhm ABS: All the school teachers didn’t teach it, the principal said, “That’s Mrs. Sally Lowman’s grandson.” I: Mmhm. ABS: Then went to the next teacher, “That’s Mrs. Sally Lowman’s grandson.” And they told, the kids said, “That’s Mrs. Sally Lowman’s grandson.” And that was the way I was known all along. I: Well, now, let me ask you, um… so you say you were born in your parent’s house? ABS: Yeah. I: Now where, where were your parents? Or what did they do for a living? ABS: Well, (laughs), that’s… question… My mother was very strict on me, but she, she and my daddy… my daddy loved to travel, he was, I: Mmhm ABS: He was a good man for working I: Mmhm ABS: And a good man to be my daddy, at… he… at one time he took me away from home (clears throat). But my fa- (coughs) excuse me, my father was hard-tempered. I: Mmhm ABS: So, (clears throat) he and my mom (clears throat) they went a lot of places. So, so I was stationary (coughs) and stayed at home with my grandmother because, um… I didn’t wanna be… running different place. But one time they came and got me and they said, my mama told my grandmother that my daddy wanted to take a hold to me because I was his son, and he wanted… and, um, my mother came home to talk to my grandmother ‘bout it, my grandmother was walked on, and she was quiet, I never heard her say his name, so they talked to my grandfather, and she just went back in the corner, and I know she cried. I: Mmhm. ABS: So, and they were in Richmond at that time, but (cough), my grand- my father, he could get a job wherever he went to, and so I lived with them, I don’t know, maybe about six months. �And, uh, but he was nice to me. Nice… he, um, told me, well he, everywhere he go, he got a, the job that I remember, he had, was for a meat-packing company. I: Mmhm. ABS: And, uh, he drove the back (?), and he carried me over there to the meat-packing. You know, they had the cows out. Kingdom… was the name of the meat-packing (coughs). From there was the most famous, then. I: Hm. ABS: And, um, (mutters), having my father explain it to me all what it did, and, uh, I appreciated that. And one day, uh, he says, “C’mon son, we’re going to a baseball game.” You know, I’d never been to a baseball - and this is Richmond. I: Mmhm ABS: And, um, like I read (cough) to go to the baseball game, and, uh, in Richmond… Richmond being the capital city (mutters), but damn, it was a little country town. You… you didn’t pay to go see no baseball game. But the great baseball players there, they just starred, and they became great-great, and at that time, of course, they didn’t have any team that had a black person on it. I: Mmhm ABS: But, uh, there was some boys that became famous because of the way they could throw a curveball. Um, all the other things. But, uh, I remember my (clears throat) father says, uh, one, I don’t know, about the second or third ballgame, he says, uh, he says, “Come on, let’s get our shoes shined.” (laughs) Getting your shoes shined? I didn’t know nothin’ about shinin’ no shoes. And they had, at that time, in Richmond, the capital city, climb up on there and gotta shine your shoes (sound effects), and (laughs), I say, “I never seen something like that.” So my daddy knew it, and he, he got me around for things, and, uh, we got out and he paid the man full for the shoes. I: Mmhm ABS: Um, I guess about the second time that we went to a ballgame, I mean, he said, “Let’s get our shoes shined,” I got up on this stand, and um, got my shoes, and when I got down, somebody had been there and had left some money for the guy shining shoes’ tip for him. I: Mmhm ABS: And I said, “Dad look at this, look what I found.” He said, “You didn’t find this, (mutters), that belongs to the shoe shiner man,” said, “Put it back up there.” I said, I said, “No, what, nobody’s gettin’ this.” I says, “I found this.” He said, “You didn’t find this, they placed it up there for ‘im.” (laughs) And you know, money, two dimes and a nickel, look like a whole lot of money. I said, “Dad, that should be my money.” He said, “It is not your money. Put it back.” (laughs) We went into the game, but, and of course, when (?), I tell you another incident that I have of my father. And we were home, I s- I said, “Dad, I’d like to have a dog. A pup, I’d like to have a dog.” He said, “Son, you don’t want one.” I said, “Oh yes, I do. I want, I want bad.” And he went to work and came back, I said, “Dad,” I said, “Dad, you gonna get me that?” He says, “I don’t think you want it.” I said, “Yes, I do.” Ok, he brought this puppy home to me, and he gave it to me, and I said, um, I said, “Oh,” I said, “I’m gonna name him Jack. Come ‘ere Jack.” Don’t know why, just playin’ with him. And, um… he poop, poop right in the house, right on the floor. My daddy said, “Gather it up.” Said, “You wanted him, so this is what you gotta do. Clean up behind him.” I said, “I have to clean up?” I said, he said, “You gotta train the dog.” (laughs) He says, “this is what �you have to do to train your dog. You wanted him, so train him.” And said, “Get that stuff up.” I said, “(muttered),” (laughs) He says, “Get it up.” I said, “get it up?” He said, “You asked for the dog, and this is your doggie. His name is Jack. You wanted him. I told you didn’t want him. You told me you did. Said, “Get it up.” I said, “Dad, take Jack back.” (Both laugh) And ever since then, I admire animals, but I don’t like to see people mistreat them. And that was the lesson I learned. He learned me a great lesson. I: Mmhm ABS: He took ‘im on back. But… my father (mumbles) and my mother traveled a lot, and, uh, as I’ve said, he was hot-tempered. Good man, everybody, nice farm, I: Mmhm ABS: But if you ever crossed him, you were in bad luck. I: Mmhm ABS: Um, so we went to New York, and up in New York and where everybody New York, but, uh, if you were unfamiliar if you were in the right place and I’m over you and all that (?), but nobody was going to be over my dad. Some guy said somethin’, he said, “you sayin’ somethin’ to me?” He slapped him, he slapped him back, knocked him out, and says, uh, “Yeah, I’m here, and I’m here to stay. Now the (mumbles), he fought real good. Strong. And, uh, one night while he was sleep, one of those guys came in and blew his brains out. While they were sleep. I: Were you there with them at that time? ABS: (interrupts) No, no, no. I: Ok. ABS: No, no. Oh, I tell you what, hah, before that, I, before that had I wrote back home and told my grandpa to come and get me. (Laughs) I: (laughs) ABS: (still laughing) I told him come get me (laughs) and my grandfather came down and got me, and, uh, the thing we rode back on the train. See, comin’ down I had rode with my daddy. We rode the bus. I: Mmhm ABS: The train was such a nice sweet ride; I’d never been on a train. My grandfather when he got back home, he says, “Sally!” say, “Here he is! Here he is!” and she was so glad to see me. She stopped talking, ya know, when, because she didn’t try to interfere with my mother and my father at all. I: Mmhm. ABS: And when she just went out the room (claps) just went right out. And grandpa says, “Here she- here he is, Sally.” And we came back (mumbles), and I never went wi- any place anywhere else with anybody. I just stayed there with my grandma, and I knew, I knew I had a good grandmother. I: Mmhm ABS: Oh, and, uh, everybody else knew that Mrs. Lowman, how kind she was. And nobody ever call her Sally. Only one person. That was King Solomon. (Laughs) I: (laughs) ABS: He said Sally, but nobody else. And, uh, we, at that, at this time, course, I, I grew back up, I kept growin’, and uh… once I went with my mother, after my father died, she was in Richmond, �and I went to Richmond. Oh, I tell you, when (mumbles), I’m talkin’ too much, you tell me, because this is what they tell me. When I get into that mode, I just talk, talk, talk. I: (laughs) ABS: But I’m, I was, uh, (mumbles) I was in Richmond, and I hadn’t been there long, and, uh, some of the boys around me, they would go downtown and sell papers. See, Richmond is whole lots different from any other city in the state. I: Mmhm. ABS: The capitol, the capitol… they got big tall buildin’s, government (?) buildin’s… I: Mmhm ABS: So you go down and sell newspapers, well I was courrier papers then, but I hadn’t been to Richmond, um, and this is where, (mumbles) you sell the paper for three cents, you had to pay two cents for it, and sell it for three cents. Now, sometimes, somebody would give you a nickel. Boy, that’s… a- a nickel for a paper! I: (Laughs) ABS: (laughs) But when you go around the capitol, see, all those people, gettin’ out of the capitol buildin’, they don’t want no change. They don’t got… they give you a nickel, maybe a dime! Um, so some boys came by and told my mother, um, “Let us take him down.” And they carried me down to show me how to sell papers on the street. And newspaper, new… when you get all the people comin’ up, they were ridin’ around, they would come by you, and right quickly you hand ‘em the paper and they’d give you a nickel, dime sometimes, you know? I: Mmhm ABS: Hm, paper? Two cents for the paper? You know, and they go home. Well, I, I caught onto that real quick. I had no problem catchin’ the guys that came. I think about the third day I was gettin’ along too smooth for ‘em… um… they came, my mother was (mumbles) and I guess she’d gotten about four, five blocks from home – she had to go downtown – and they start to rough me up a little bit, and, because I was enjoyin’ it…(mumbling) I had never been in Richmond, outside of little old Danville, um nothing, you know? I: (laughs) ABS: And I was really enjoyin’ it. And they felt like I was enjoyin’ it too much. He said, “Look at you,” say, “You don’t even know who were you goin’.” (mumbles) Say, “Look at you” say, “if it wasn’t for us, you wouldn’t even know how to get downtown.” Then they started makin’ me feel small, I said, “Yes I do too.” He says, “You don’t know how to go downtown. You know you don’t.” I said, “Don’t you tell me.” I say, I spoke up as bad as they were. Said, “I do know.” Said, “Alright, you go head on, let me see.” Said, “We goin’ another way, you go on down there by yourself.” I said, “goodness gracious, like,” (huffs, laughing) So I had spoke up, but I did know how to get back, when I come back I would have a problem maybe. So I went on downtown and bought my papers, and I get on the street and sell them, and havin’ a good time by myself. Just sellin’ papers to people. And I was really, was the same thing all those people come out of those big buildin’s down there, and, uh, I hear the car (Car sound effects) I: Mmhm ABS: I say “What he blowin’ his horn for?” And I’m sellin’ these papers you know. And then (Car sound effect) say, “What in the world they doin’ all that?” And I saw somebody in the car almost hit somebody (mumbles) Somebody tryin’ to say… (mumbles) cross the street without gettin’ hit. That was my mother. �I: Oh no. ABS: The boys went back and told her, say, “he went off and left us, we don’t know where he is.” And she was comin’ to get me. And, um, when I saw her, I said, I said, “Mom, what are you doin’ now,” say, “Come on.” She says, “I been lookin’ for you because they said they didn’t…” They have a thing out in Richmond, and this is true, two things, student doctors. Student doctors, really, at that time, if they saw a body, some, you know, somebody sick and get passed out or something, they take ‘em out over to the medical school, and experiment with ‘em. Um, they, student doctors did that and they would take up, if somebody they would say he was dead if he’s just sittin’ there and starvin’, you see. This country had the biggest depression you ever had on about that time. I: Mmhm ABS: I don’t know. I: Mmhm ABS: People were jumpin’ out of tall buildin’s all the way around committin’ suicide. That was a big depression area. But, I, um, had no problem with it, and I told my momma, and she says, “Son,” says, “I don’t want you out here,” says, “They.. they said you couldn’t get back home, you was probably in here lost.” I said, “I’m not lost.” And, uh, tried to convince her, and she just cried. Said, mom said, “You come on and go home with me.” I said, “Mom, I guarantee ya, I’ll be alright, just let me sell my paper.” And she, she didn’t know that I knew how to get down there and that’s why I see where (mumbles) I: Mmhm ABS: And, uh, she cried. I patted her a little bit, and, uh, then she quieted down. Let me go on and sell my papers. She went back home, and I found my way back home. And then, after that, I went. But that was hard, but after a while, I wanted to go home because I went that. This was another time and the boys at school, because I was a new student, you know guys just take advantage of you, and (mumbles) I: Mmhm ABS: I ain’t have nobody take advantage of me. And, uh, well I didn’t fight. One day, one morning I went into school and they grabbed me, and one, well, I always got that one time. Sometime I’d wait until the other starts the morning (mumbles), confrontation with ‘em. But one boy took off my shoe, and threw it way down on the other side of the schoolyard, and boy took the other one and threw it like that and I had to go and collect my shoes. And I told my mom about it, and she went in and talked to the principal. You know what the principal told her? Says, “Ma’am,” says, “I know your boy’s (?),” he says, “But I don’t have time to (?) paper (?) take care of your son.” Says, “He’ll have to come in until and make as best as he can ‘til he get in school.” And she tried talkin’ to him and said, “Well I can’t do…” So she left and she told me this, she says, “The principal didn’t respect me at all. (mumbles)” And says, “I’m glad I went,” said, “But if your daddy…” See my daddy was hot-tempered, was a good dad. Said, “If your dad woulda thrown his head out the window.” (laughs) I: (laughs) ABS: Yeah, so she didn’t want to send my daddy down there to do it. I: Yep ABS: Because of that, but I, um, I, I, and she said, “You’ll have to protect yourself.” Well, I’d never fought any boys, um, so one day I, some boy jumped over me, and when he jumped on �me, he jumped us right because I hit (laughs) knocked up my fist, oh, you always hit a boy in his stomach and draw him over like this and hit up like that and I started to fight. And he started runnin’ and I started chasin’ him. And when I was chasin’ him some boy said, say “He, he, he, he lives right by close to the school,” say, “Leave him alone let him go home.” So I chased him, he ran because I was fightin’ him. I could, I knew I could fight I: Mmhm ABS: But I didn’t. So he ran and got home and he ran up on his porch, he had some people on his porch, I ran right up behind him, he ran through the house, I ran right straight on through the house, I: (laughs) ABS: And told him I would beat him up. I: In his own house? ABS: (splutters) Oh yeah, I’d say because we ran straight through the house. I: (laughs) ABS: Out in the yard, (laughs) I beat him up. (laughs) I remember that boy jumpin’ on me, and say, “I can fight.” And then I wouldn’t have to send my mother to the principal and she wouldn’t have to send my daddy because my daddy would, woulda beat the principal up. He didn’t mind, he would just tore up the office with ‘im. (laughs) And momma said I had to (mumble), oh go ahead. I: Oh I was gonna say, well let me ask you one thing: um, did you have any brothers and sisters? ABS: No brothers. No s-, I had a little sister, she passed right after she was born. But I, No brothers, no sisters. I: Um, now when you lived with your grandparents, ‘cause that’s where you lived most of the time? ABS: Yes, I did. I: Did you have other family members that lived near by ya? ABS: Oh yes, um, you see, with my grandfather being a minister, I: Mmhm ABS: We had a lot of relatives around, and, um, they were, the whole community accepted as well, in Danville, so, oh, we were well, uh, good. I (mumbles) grandfather retired from the ministry, he just sit out on the porch and everybody come by and everybody knew him, say, “Hi Reverend!” “Oh, hey, doll baby, hey,” and, and he just like that. I: Mmhm ABS: And, then, after they go home, he say, “Son, I don’t remember,” say, “I have so many people go ‘Reverend Lowman, my momma said hey’ say ‘Yeah’ said you ‘You married my momma, Reverend Lowman.’ ‘Yeah, give her my regards.’” He told me, he says,”I don’t, I don’t, uh, I don’t know who these people are.” And he said that all day long. Said, “Yes, yes I remember, I baptized, yeah I baptized…” I: (laughs) ABS: And do you know what? I: Hm? ABS: I’m in the bombin’ business, in the real estate business and in the oil business, I: Mmhm �ABS: And I been in that since fifty-four, before that I was in life insurance. I: Mmhm ABS: And I see people, “Hey, how ya doin?” (laughs) I: (laughs) Ya learned from a, from a master, it sounds like! (Both laughing) ABS: I don’t know who they are, I really don’t. (Both still laughing) I: Now, describe the house that you grew up in. Was it brick? Was it wood? Did it have a garden? Was it in the city? Country? ABS: Oh, it was in the city. I: Ok. ABS: And, uh, it was a, it was built fancy. It, it was something fancy. It, it was a nice neighborhood but it was a new house. And, uh, my grandfather and my grandmother… it was really, really something nice. But, um, now I must tell you… depression hit hard (?) and people would go around and say, “Give me a piece of bread.” I can think of them now, “Gimme a piece of bread.” And they needed a piece, just a piece of bread. Now if you put a little jelly on that bread, whew, they just can’t stand it. I: Mmhm ABS: Well I was courrier newspapers, and I tell you what my grandmother did – people thought we were rich, we were poor like everybody else. My grandmother, and I learned how to raise a garden from her, she started about, a, what, latter part of February, first part of March, garden. I: Mmhm ABS: Garden. And she just (?) garden. And, um, when, and something would come in, whatever she plant, along about April, some came in, and she says, when she takes up, (Mumbles), picks a beet or something, whatever, she say, “When you take something up, you put something back.” and then she did that. My grandmother, we, we had, people thought we were rich. She said, “When you take something up, you put something in.” We do this, and then she raised chickens, and, uh, we, and I, when I grew up a little bit, I got a, I got a paper route – courrier papers, and, uh, I would fish, fresh fish. I: Mmhm ABS: It was so fine. Nickel a pound. Six pounds for a quarter. I: Mm ABS: (laughs) I would, I would go by, and (mumbles) when I go across town to get my papers I’d pass fish market. I would get fish for us to (?) home, ya know, and this is such good eatin’. But my grandmother raised, in the garden, I helped her with the garden, too and then she made preserves. I: Mmhm ABS: And watch, then she dried fruit. Fix it up so the sun covered it up and looked like piece of cloth so it (?) good, and dried fruit. I: Mmhm ABS: And we had, we just had plenty to eat all the time, and people just thought we’s rich, and I was right by my grandmother’s side, and I swear on my heart I’d raise a garden, and I got a garden now (laughs). I: Do ya? �ABS: Yes, yes indeed I: Well, what ABS: Yes I have. I: What kinds of things are you growing in your garden now? BS: Um, string beans, watermelon, cantaloupe, uh, okra, uhh, sweet potatoes. I: Mm. ABS: Oh, we- I got big sweet potatoes I: Now is that similar to what your grandmother would grow? Or what are some of the things your grandmother grew? ABS: Grow? I: Mmhm ABS: She growed vegetables. All of them. Fruit, and all of them. Um, we just had plenty to eat. And, uh, and, uh, and I’ll tell you something else my grandmother too. She was an agent for that Madame C. J. Walker’s, um, beauty supply. You know who C. J. Walker? I: Mmhm. I’ve head of that ABS: And we had a part of our house… She was a hairdresser, and she sold C. J. Walker’s products. And, uh, I would keep her record for her. (laughs) Inventory, and uh… See because I stayed there, of all the time, and, I, my grandmother just felt like, she made me feel like I was just something she couldn’t get along without. But I tell you what, (mumbles) you had men, then who had dairy’s and cows and they would come by sellin’ milk, and uh, I love buttermilk in my (?), I love buttermilk. I: Mmhm. ABS: But… everybody had the baked bread all of them, so you would have to have milk and butter from this man, and, uh, you (mutters) before you’d come by we would park and always buy my buttermilk separate from because grandma’s buttermilk she make up the biscuits, and I (laughs), I: Yeah. ABS: I drank mine (both laugh) ABS: And sometimes she’d run out, um, (mutters) she’d ask me if she could use mine and I said, “Sure,” for the family. And, uh, one day, uh, my grandmother stopped the man, and (mutters) uh she bought (mutters) and went in the house, and I thought whatever and I was short of money, and I told them what I want and I said I’ll pay for this Friday. He says, “Alright.” And grandmama says you, you (mutters) sell that boy (mutters) said, “Yes ma’am.” Said I been doin’ all alone and you just left here! (Both laugh) ABS: He says “If all the adults pay me like this boy, I would be alright.” Say, “He comes up and pays his bill right on time.” Says, “(mutters) I never say anything to you, but sometimes he doesn’t have the money and I let him have it.” Oh, I tell you, but she says, “Well, I don’t, I don’t know,” but, but, when, when I, I know that, um, my mother was back with us sometime, oh and family, milk runs short. Says, “Can we use your milk?” Simply because I love buttermilk, so, I, I had to buy mine. Because I drank plenty of it. I: Laughs. Keep telling, I’m gonna pause you right here. End. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with A. Byron Smith Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with A. Byron Smith Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 29 August 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 42:41 Transcription prepared by: unknown Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 29 August 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource A. Byron Smith; Kellie Thomas Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2672/Wilson-Corbin.1.mp3 0267a7369693cf2fda433599ea0f2d03 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2672/CW_2.0_Wilson_as_child_with_toy_car-1.jpg c9523af0bea6307f62ca1471ed69eca0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2672/CW_5.0_Roanoke_Fire_Fighters_11_June_1957.jpg fba0960ca51d64b7bbb0c8fb619527eb https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2672/CW_6.0_Wilson_in_Fire_uniform_n.d.-1.jpg 32078900b4fb73f2f337a6bae3698902 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2672/CW_7.0_Wilson_circa_2000.-1.jpg a638db5326719a20aacf2c73a946f6fe https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2672/CW_8.0_Wilson_in_naval_uniform-1.jpg d0bacdfc1d186aba23e5a389d5b56ced Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Corbin Wilson Subject The topic of the resource Southeast-Northeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Corbin Wilson Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 17 December 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:03:15 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 December 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Corbin Wilson; Brian Clark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilsonCorbin https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2671/Lamb_Emerson.1.mp3 be6b6e6602614b2946e1bade2cdb6cc6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2671/Lamb.Emerson.pdf 9db241e3dcc6a95541715f90474f671e PDF Text Text Interviewee: Emerson Lamb Interviewer: Brian Clark Transcriber: Andrew Sterling BC: This is an interview with Emerson Lamb for the Neighborhood Oral History Initiative. My name is Brian Clark. I am the interviewer. Today is November 26, 2007 and this is in Emerson's apartment at Our Lady of the Valley. Emerson, thank you again very much for agreeing to help out and do another interview with us. EL: Yes sir. BC: Let's start with the basics. When and where were you born? EL: June 15, 1924. BC: And where was that? EL: Newcastle. BC: Newcastle, Virginia? Any particular location there? Was it a hospital? EL: A hotel. BC: A hotel, really? Is there a story behind that? EL: I was born in a hotel. The old Wick Hotel. Its still there. BC: And how long did you live in Newcastle? EL: 13 years I think it was. BC: After you lived in Newcastle, did you move straight to Roanoke? Where did you live in Roanoke? EL: On Dale Avenue, Southeast. BC: How long did you live there? EL: 7 or 8 years. I bought a house over on Tazwell and after that, I got married and moved out. BC: When you moved on to the Dale Avenue house, was that with your family? What was your family like as far as your parents or any siblings? EL: Just me. BC: So an only child? What about your parents, what type of work did they do? EL: My mother worked at Viscos. Do you know what I mean by Viscos? BC: The rayon plant? EL: Yes. BC: And what was her name? EL: Reba. BC: Was it Lamb? Reba Lamb? What about your father? EL: No information. BC: No information. So you were raised by a single mother? EL: Actually, most of it was by my grandparents. BC: What were there names? EL: Wood and Lizzy Lamb. BC: And did they live in Fincastle? EL: Newcastle. BC: Newcastle, I'm sorry. What brought your mom to Roanoke? EL: Work. She was working over here. And then after my grandparents died, I had to go somewhere so she ended up with me. That's pretty much it. BC: So you didn't move into Roanoke until after your grandparents died? EL: Right. I lived with them. I didn't know the difference – I thought they were my parents. BC: So your mom and you lived both lived with your grandparents? EL: No, just me. She lived in Roanoke. 1 �BC: So when your grandparents died, you moved in with your mom? EL: With her. BC: Oh, OK. What was it like growing up in Newcastle? EL: Well, it was pretty quiet generally speaking. We had some unusual things that I did. I followed the construction when they were building the road and I'd go and watch the machinery work, you know, mostly I had chores to do of course. It was – We played baseball, things like that. That was about the extent of it. There wasn't a whole lot of activity over there. BC: What type of house did you grow up in there with your grandparents? EL: It was an old house. It had 2 stories. Certainly wasn't the best but it was comfortable. We heated with wood primarily. Part of my job was getting the wood in and so forth. 0.05.10.3 BC: I was going to ask if that was one of your chores. (EL laughing) EL: I didn't have too much real responsibility. I used to like to go fishing. There are two creeks there, you know, in Newcastle. Craig's Creek and John's Creek come together less than half a mile from where I lived. I used to like to go fishing down there. Even as a boy. (knock at the door) Unknown: Hi. How are you. EL: Hello. Unknown: Are you busy. I'll come back in just a little bit. EL: He's doing an interview. I remember one time I was fishing and I was just a kid. I threw out my line way across the creek. When I caught the fish, it was an eel. First one I had ever seen. It was about that long. BC: About 2 ½ foot 3 foot long? EL: Yeah. I was pretty well shook up with that. I didn't even take it off the hook. I wrapped my raincoat around it and took off home. (laughing) But that's part of what I did. I did a little fishing, a little swimming, things like that in the summertime. In general, it was pretty quiet. I did have to go after cows everyday. That was about a mile, a mile and a half. They'd wander off up the road. I'd have to go get them and bring 'em in. BC: Was it a farm that your grandparents had? EL: Just a plain old country place. They had 3 cows and they had hogs. For a while, they had horses but – my granddaddy was crippled so he couldn't get around very well. A horse kicked him when he was working and broke his legs so he never was any good after that. Arthritis set in. He was in a wheel chair all the time. BC: Did your grandparents or you have a garden of any sort? EL: Oh, they had a garden, yes. BC: So more than just cows? EL: Yes. They had a regular garden. My granddaddy would get out there – He couldn't walk without canes or crutches or something like that. He had a push plow. You know what I mean by a push plow? BC: Is this on a horse? EL: No. BC: Or just one person pushing? EL: Yes. It had a wheel on it, you know. He would get that push plow and he'd stay out there in the sun until the sweat would run down in his shoes and make mud. He stuck with it. That's immaterial to anything but BC: That's all part of it. EL: OK. BC: Did you do any home canning or anything like that? EL: Yeah, they did. They did home canning. Of course they made butter, cottage cheese, things like that. We had our meat which we butchered each year. It was just basically just living off the land 2 �because we didn't have any money. They didn't have any. BC: Did they have an income? EL: No, no. BC: Oh really. EL: No income. BC: Does make a difference in how you live doesn't it? EL: I'll tell you. I think my aunt maybe paid the rent. She was a nurse in DC and I think she paid the rent for us. 0.10.01.05 BC: Was that an old family farm? EL: No. It was just a place that we got to rent after we left the hotel. BC: Do you didn't actually own it then? EL: No. BC: You were renting. EL: Not until later on when my aunt bought it for the family. We didn't own it at that time. BC: Do you remember what road it was on? EL: Walnut Street. BC: Right in Newcastle? EL: Mm mm. BC: Did you go to school in Craig County, Newcastle? EL: Yeah. BC: What was that like? EL: I did pretty well for the first 7 or 8 years. The last year I didn't do any good and that was one of the reasons why I think people decided that I'd better go to Roanoke to live. So I finished over here. I went one year to Jackson Junior and 2 years at Jefferson. BC: That was in high school? EL: Mm mm. BC: What was the difference in the first 7 or 8 and then that last year? EL: Well, we didn't have but one classroom. Each class was just one group, 20-40 in a class and that was it. When I came to Roanoke, it was hundreds in a class. (laughing) I don't know how many. It was a tremendous amount. Jefferson was a good school. I won't say nothing against it. In fact, I've got my annual here from 1941-42. BC: You're kidding. EL: Yeah. BC: What was that first day like coming into Roanoke from Newcastle schools? EL: I was lost. I didn't know where I was, didn't know a soul, didn't know anything. I went in on my own, nobody to go with me. I just had it all alone. It was tough I thought. BC: Did you have to come in mid-year or - ? EL: No I started at the beginning of the year - at the beginning of the 1939 semester. BC: How did you get to school? EL: (laughing) Good question. Walk. Well, if you didn't walk, you could ride a streetcar, but walk. If you rode the streetcar it cost money. If you walked, it didn't cost anything. BC: How far was that walk? EL: Oh, about a mile. BC: Not too bad. EL: No, it wasn't too bad. BC: A little bit of a walk then. EL: Back then, fresh out of the country, everything was walk there you know. After I came to 3 �Roanoke, I learned the city by taking a – getting a weekly pass on a bus and I just rode it everywhere just to see how the city was laid out. Tried to educate myself a little bit. It was a little difficult, some of it was. BC: What were some of the hard parts? EL: Well, you didn't know anybody, you didn't know where to go. You didn't know what you were going to do. After I got to school of course, they led me around there but after you get out of school, you're on your own. You don't even know the children. Didn't have any friends or anything. So it made it a little bit more difficult than normal. BC: How long did it take you to feel comfortable? 0.14.47.4 EL: Uhhh... Probably a year or more. Of course I began to make friends. Of course in junior high, I was on the baseball team and I did get some, make some friends there so that made a difference. Believe it or not, I have a clipping here that mentions about the school and the letters that were given out. BC: For being on the team? EL: Yeah. I've got a letter from track team and baseball. BC: What position did you play in baseball? EL: Whatever they needed except catcher. I didn't want to be the catcher. I pitched and I played a lot of 3rd base and a lot of outfield. Didn't do too much on 1st but I did some of the other positions pretty well. BC: What about track? EL: You know its strange. I don't remember a whole lot about that. We had 10 events we had to qualify in to get your decathlon. That was the discus and the shot-put, javelin I think. I can't – That's talking about a number of years ago. That was in '39 and '40. BC: That is a number of years ago. (chuckle) How much schooling did you complete? EL: I completed Jefferson and I took a few college courses but I never went to college. I had a few college courses. I took what I liked. I went to the University of Virginia extension and went to Virginia Western some. Just enough to get some credit. Nothing else. BC: Nothing wrong with that. EL: Of course I picked up a number of credits if you want to call them credits from the postmaster's meetings that you'd go to. They'd have seminars and you go and get some credit, I don't remember how much but they would give you credit for it. BC: You mentioned some of the things you did as a child growing up in Newcastle, were there any sort of activities that you did here in Roanoke once you moved here. EL: Well, yeah. I started working part time around the theaters. BC: This was during high school? EL: Yeah. And I worked maybe nights, most anything to get to see the movies for free. (both chuckling) That was one thing. We walked a lot. I had a couple of buddies and we didn't think anything about walking to the top of Mill Mountain. BC: That's a good little walk. EL: Yeah. We were up to it. So, that was one aspect of it. BC: Now, if I say Roanoke, you know, was it Dale Avenue? EL: Mm mm. BC: Kinda growing up here in Roanoke, what are the first memory or two that come to your mind as far as – not maybe the first in order but what immediately pops in your head when I say Roanoke, Dale Avenue, that sort of thing. EL: We lived in an apartment house there. It wasn't a whole lot going on. After the second year or so, I had a couple of friends in the high school and we'd get together and make music. That fellow there. 4 �0.20.02.4 BC: This is Bill Atkins? EL: Yeah. He played the violin for the Roanoke Symphony Orchestra and then he'd come up to our place and we'd beat out the old country music you know. He was a fiddler then. BC: What did you play? EL: Oh, I played a little guitar and the other boy played the banjo so we made a lot of fuss. BC: Did you have a big audience in Roanoke for that sort of music? EL: No, we were in our apartment by ourselves. (chuckling) We didn't have any audience really other than maybe some of the other residents there maybe heard it. That's about all. I don't know if that's of any interest or not but BC: Its all of a little bit of interest. (chuckle) EL: You'll know what to do with it then. BC: Certainly. EL: But as far as the things around Roanoke, there wasn't a whole lot. I liked the railroads tremendously, you know. I'd go over and watch the trains. Then, when I got out of the service, I went to work on the railroad. I worked there for 10 ½ years as a brakeman and a conductor. Then, I got a job as postmaster. I worked there for 30 years. Then, I worked for Oakey's. BC: The funeral home? EL: Mm mm. 16 years. BC: That's a lot of workin'. EL: I retired at 80. BC: Put in a few extra years then huh? EL: Yeah. (both laughing) BC: That's wonderful. EL: You'll have to ask me some questions – I don't know where to lead. BC: I have a whole list of 'em. We'll get to 'em if we get to 'em. If we don't, that's OK too. EL: We want to get to as many as we can. BC: We will, we'll try. That apartment you had on Dale Avenue, did you have a front porch or anything there or could you tell me a little bit about what that apartment was like? EL: It was on the 2nd floor. We had 3 rooms. We had a bedroom, maybe a sort of living room like and a kitchen. That's all we had. So, it was sort of small, cramped situation if you wan to call it that. But, if you don't know the difference its all the same. BC: What neighborhood did you identify with, or did you? EL: Southeast. BC: Southeast. Wasn't exactly sure where Dale Avenue was. EL: Its a block off of Tazwell then it runs parallel to Tazwell. BC: Did you have any chores to do here in Roanoke as far as at home? EL: Not a whole lot, no. I was able to go out and work in theaters and all. When I worked as an usher, they paid me 10 cents an hour. BC: Was that big money? EL: Well, it was better than none. Of course, you could take your whole week's pay and blow it on a meal. But, yeah, we worked – I had an unusual job also with the theaters there. It didn't pay me anything but I got to see the movies for free. I carried the film. I'd go down on Tuesday and Saturday nights and after they'd get through running the film for the movies, they had a metal case they put 'em in and I'd carry those cases down to the American Theater which had a pick up there for the express and they picked 'em up and shipped 'em. 0.25.00.6 BC: Is this when they'd stop running the film. 5 �EL: Mm mm. See they changed on Tuesday and Saturday. BC: And which theater did you work at? EL: I worked at the Park and the American. And then after I got out of school, I guess I worked a little before over at the Roanoke. I had a regular job there for a while. BC: The restaurant? EL: No, the Roanoke Theater. BC: OK, I'm sorry. EL: The Roanoke Theater. It was there as part of the old bank building that they added on. The old First National Bank. They took in the theater and the American too I think. BC: They may have. I'm not sure. I know they're not there now. EL: No. BC: From growing up in Newcastle with your grandparents and with your mom, were there any family stories that were passed down or recipes or were there any things that you picked up from living with your grandparents or your mom that you do now that's sort of a tradition in the family? EL: I don't know of anything. That's a good question but I don't know of anything. BC: Some people do and some don't. EL: Yeah. BC: You served in the military? EL: Right. BC: It was the army, correct? EL: Mm mm. BC: For World War II. EL: Right. BC: You mentioned that you had a wife. Did she serve at all? EL: Oh no. I didn't marry until after I got out of the service. BC: Did you have any children? EL: Three. BC: Three. What was your wife's name? EL: Blake, B-l-a-k-e. BC: What about your children? EL: Jean, Sandra and Charles. BC: Jean, was that a girl? EL: That's a girl. BC: So 2 daughters and a son huh? EL: Uh huh. BC: When did you have them? EL: Well, the first came along about 1948 and the last one in 1956. BC: OK. Did any of them serve in the service? EL: No. My son was on the borderline. He didn't even have to register. Because the registration stopped just when he became eligible to go to sign up. All the children did pretty good. One's a doctor. One was a pharmacist and the other girl was going to teach – I better not tell this. BC: (laughing) Didn't end up teaching huh? EL: No. There was a only 2 people that were eligible for the job. She graduated from Virginia Commonwealth University with very high honors and she tried to get a job in Chesterfield County. But I guess the race got into it. BC: Chesterfield is pretty tough. EL: Yeah. She was ready to go. She never did teach. She worked as a manager of a Piece Goods Store and things like that but she never worked much at all. She kept house really. The other two were 6 �career people. Now Jean just retired from the VA. She's put her time in and retired. My son, he's way up in Salem. BC: Still putting time in huh? 0.29.49.4 EL: Yeah. I don't know how he does it. He just has so much going for him all the time. But that's his life. I don't try to interfere with it you know. BC: You might say the same thing about you working 'til you were 80. (both laughing) When you just moved to Roanoke, were there any special businesses or shops that you went to often in your neighborhood in Southeast? EL: Yeah. There was Sam's on the market and there was on the market, there was a number of stalls that we bought food from and then there was a little store up at the, just a half a block away from where I lived, Solebi (??) Grocery. BC: Solebi? EL: Uh huh. I still see one of the boys now and then. The rest of the family is dead I think but the one boy is still living. BC: Now when you say the market, you're talking about the farmer's market downtown? EL: Yeah. BC: How far away was that from home for you? EL: About 6 blocks I guess. Something like that, 7. BC: Pretty close then? EL: Yeah. BC: Were there any places in Roanoke that were real important to you where you would hang out of a place to go to be alone or just places that you always went to? EL: I never was – I was a loner but I wasn't a loner, you know? I didn't hang out by myself much. Of course, I aught to take that back and change it because I did have to because I didn't have any choice. Anyway, it was not as much as some places where you'd feel like a person had seclusion. I didn't have that. I guess my seclusion would've been down on the railroad watching the trains. BC: Favorite pass time then? EL: Yeah. I remember one time I was standing down there on Randolph Street Bridge and one of these mallies (??) was coming up the track and there I was looking right over it, down into the stack. The engineer down there shaking his head, exhaust blow up there in my face, like to took me away. (chuckling) BC: Is this where they had all the ash and everything coming out from the coal fire? EL: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I worked 10 ½ years there and I never worked a day on the diesels. All of 'em were steam. BC: When did the diesels come in? EL: '56. BC: So then right after you were finishing up there? EL: Uh huh. Well, they actually had gotten some but they weren't using them in Roanoke. They sent 'em down on the _______ line or someplace like that. BC: After you lived here for a few years here in Roanoke, was there anything you missed about Newcastle or that you were glad to have left behind? EL: I went back a lot. BC: Did you? EL: Uh huh. They had bus service over there you know at that time. Catch the bus over there and it only cost a dollar to go so you could afford that. I still have a lot of friends over there in Newcastle. A few girlfriends and things like that. I never was much of on girlfriends but had some I'd go to see. But I don't know of anything in particular that was more outstanding than anything else. 7 �BC: Have you ever, since you've lived here for quite a while, have you ever participated in any community groups or community projects, that sort of thing? 0.35.02.2 EL: Early on, I was on the American Legion Baseball Team. As far as community groups, I don't know of any that I participated in. Not a good citizen I guess. BC: Were there any things in your neighborhood that you got involved with at all or - ? EL: No. No. There was work and family and that was about it. BC: That's a lot. EL: It is. I worked pretty regular on the railroad and then of course my wife and I'd go out on the riverbank lots of times and sit down and just maybe take something to eat or something and just enjoy the time. We used to go up to Salem there. It was pretty interesting. BC: That's where you went to the river was off of Salem Avenue? EL: It was up in Salem itself. BC: Oh, oh. EL: It was in Salem. We had that Riverside Drive or whatever it is through there that went along side the river. We used to go up there. BC: Were there any, when you were growing up or even once you were married and working and everything, do you remember any cultural events that you went to in your neighborhood or in Roanoke that really stands out like a concert or shows, performances? EL: No. Actually, I wasn't in Roanoke that much longer before I moved to Blue Ridge. BC: That's where you were postmaster, right? EL: Right. I moved down there in 1951 so time span is __________________. I enjoyed those things but I didn't take part in 'em much because my wife just didn't care for 'em. So, I stayed home. BC: Did you ever go back through Southeast? EL: Oh yeah. BC: How did that change or did it change? EL: Yeah, its changing. The last I remember, the old apartment house was torn down. BC: The one that you lived in? EL: Uh huh. In fact, the house that I bought over on Tazwell has been torn down. So, they're trying to get rid of me. BC: Why were they torn down? Were they building something else or just - ? EL: Just torn down. The tax problems I expect. BC: How else has the neighborhood changed? EL: Not a whole lot. Its the same as it was 50 years ago. BC: Did you live near the big house Buena Vista? EL: No, no. BC: Was that over in that area though? EL: That was where Jackson Junior High School was. BC: Oh, OK. EL: It was right next door so to speak. I'm familiar with it from there but no, I lived about a mile in towards town. We had streetcar service right on up to the school if you wanted to take it. It came right by, right in front of the apartment. BC: And if you could afford to? EL: Yeah. BC: You were living in Roanoke up until '51? 0.39.57.4 EL: Yes. BC: So you had already moved out by then. What I was wondering is if you had any memories of 8 �desegregation in Roanoke or the surrounding area. Anything that might stand out. EL: No, not in Roanoke. BC: Anywhere else? EL: I had some knowledge of it in Blue Ridge. We had a black community there. It was a little bit sort of touch and go there for a while. They were pretty unhappy. Then after things began to settle down, the community got along pretty well. BC: That's good. Southeast was one of the areas that was targeted here recently for urban renewal and went in and did a lot of renovations. Are you at all familiar with that? EL: No. BC: Or have you seen what it looks like now compared to before? EL: No. I haven't seen anything about that. BC: I'm just curious, having lived there. EL: Yeah, well, certainly. But that was – My living there was a long time ago. Much of my memory is kind of blotted out anyway. I don't know what's going on. I just can't remember very well. BC: Memory is a funny thing. EL: It really is. BC: You mentioned that your mom worked for Viscos. How long did she work there? EL: I would say about 27 years. BC: Did she work there up to the point when it closed down or did she stop working there before that? EL: I'm not sure. I would say that she worked until it closed. BC: Do you remember what kind of impact that had on your community? EL: Well, I wasn't living up there then. It made a difference. In fact, she was still living there in the house and my – I just don't remember what took place. BC: Were there any other major closings or economic impacts while you were living in Roanoke that you remember? EL: Yeah. One was American Bridge or Virginia Bridge whichever one you want to call it. BC: What was that like? EL: It was a steel erecting plant. They built bridges and things like that. They were right on the corner of – You know where the transfer plant is for the garbage? That's where it was. BC: How do you remember it impacting the community? EL: Well, about a thousand people didn't have any jobs after that thing quit. BC: That's huge. EL: Yeah, it is. The railroad suffered a whole lot during these times. They had cut offs too. Of course when I worked on the railroad, I was only cut off once for 15 days. BC: That's not very long. EL: I thought that was pretty good. BC: As you were coming back after your service in the war, were there any types of work that you felt weren't available to you for whatever reason? EL: Oh, I'd do anything. BC: So, you felt it was pretty wide open. 0.44.49.9 EL: Yeah. In fact, after - the railroad was the first job I applied for. I got the job and then I had to get off for a tonsil operation and while I was off, I worked for 7-up. So, I'd do anything. I worked for the 7-up bottling company. BC: What'd you do for 7-up? EL: Well, I worked in general for about a week. The next week, they put me in charge of mixing the syrup for the drinks 'cause I was already familiar with not only the machinery but how the drink mix went in. I worked there 4 weeks I guess. My tonsils cleared up and I went back on the railroad. 9 �BC: Did anybody in Southeast that you were familiar with own their own business? Any neighbors or friends? EL: One of my neighbors had his own business. It was a little store there beside of us. I don't remember his name. Not sure I can come up with it. BC: Was it a convenience store?\ EL: Uh huh. Just a very small one. BC: What about Newcastle? Did you know anybody there that owned their own business in Roanoke? EL: Yes. I knew several people that did. Mr. Elmore, he had a grocery store there where I went to visit quite a bit. Then there were others in town that had – one had the drug store and one had kind of a convenience store. One had a little just sort of a whole in the wall store, you know, not much. And I remember his name, Jim McPherson. But anyway, its hard to remember those names and all. BC: I have a hard time and I'm not hitting 80 yet so. EL: Laughing. BC: Suppose, since you lived here for a good portion of your life or the surrounding area, if you were asked to tell someone who is coming in from out of town who had never been to Roanoke before about Roanoke, what would you tell 'em? How would you describe Roanoke to somebody who had never been here? EL: You make it hard. I'm not used to that kind of question. It would be similar to everything else. Could tell 'em about the economy and the people and the activities in the community and things like that. Its not being very specific but it is – that's about what I would do. BC: Are there any specific things that you would mention just out of your experience here? EL: I don't believe I can answer that one very well. BC: OK. Fair enough. We'll go on to the next question. EL: Good. BC: When you were growing up here, was there a favorite walk or drive that you liked to do that really stands out in your mind? EL: Yeah. BC: What was that? 0.49.46.9 EL: I used to like to walk – everything was walk – I used to like to walk downtown to just look around. You had all the dime stores and things like down there then. You could stay down there and your eyes BC: Just twitching. EL: Yeah. That was one of the things I liked to do. Then I liked to go to the ball games and things like that. BC: Where was that at? EL: Out at Woodrow Stadium. Was that it? BC: It may be. I'm not sure. EL: The stadium where they tore it down. BC: Victory Stadium? EL: Victory Stadium. BC: OK, yeah. Did you see a lot of games out there? EL: High school games. I saw a number of 'em. I had an annual pass to the – just bought the whole thing. Went every chance I got. It was pretty nice. That was one of the other things I liked. Of course, I always liked to go to the theaters in the winter to see what was going on. BC: Was that a big hang out spot for kids growing up? EL: No, you didn't hang out there. You could go to the show and go in and sit down, but there wasn't any hanging out unless you were an employee like ______. Otherwise, they'd ask you what you were 10 �doing and why. I enjoyed that. It was pretty interesting. Then you walk sometimes, take a walk and go to Lakeside. That was interesting. BC: This was the amusement park, right? EL: Yeah. That's right. I keep on forgetting that you might not be up to stuff on these things. BC: I'm a little younger but I actually do remember Lakeside. EL: It was nice. We had a swimming pool up there, you know, and all these rides and everything. Had the mountain speedway thriller. BC: That was one of the rides? EL: Yeah. That was one of the interesting things we did. Usually, I had to do most of this by myself because my other friends they were obligated somewhere else you know. Didn't have many friends to tell you the truth. I came along. I got there. BC: It sounds like it. You had mentioned one of the walks that you liked to do earlier and that was to go to the top of Mill Mountain. EL: Yeah. BC: I'm curious having been up there when you were relatively young looking out over here recently, what do you really notice that's different about that view? EL: A whole lot different. You didn't have the big bank buildings and things like that down there. But you had the Mill Mountain Park up there. There was a building up there. I know I went up there one time, once or twice to dances at the Mill Mountain. BC: Was that the old lodge? EL: Yeah. BC: I couldn't remember the name of it. EL: I couldn't think what it was. Yeah, that's right. Used to go up there to dances and all. It was an interesting place to go even before the zoo. They did pretty well. They had fairly good things going on there. Sometimes they'd have a play or something going on. This was just a place that you could go instead of like the old Academy of Music that they had. You don't remember that one of course. It was down on Salem Avenue, places of entertainment. This is one of the places we used to go for entertainment. Wrestling, boxing, things like that. That was the old auditorium. 0.55.33.8 BC: Where was that at? EL: It was over there close to the N&W station. But it burned down. It was owned by the railroad and they used to have wrestling matches and things like that that you could go to. So you get to thinking back, you can think of a lot of things of interest. I don't know if that was of any interest. It certainly was very refreshing to be able to have something different to do. BC: Did you feel like there wasn't a whole lot to do? You've told me about a lot but I imagine on an everyday basis EL: That's right. You didn't know what you were going to do next. Just couldn't figure it out. BC: Some things don't change. (both laughing) It sounds like you were here when the star was built on Mill Mountain. Do you remember that? EL: Yeah, before the star was built. BC: Do you remember that while it was being built? EL: Yeah, but I don't remember a whole lot about it. I just remember we could see it going up. BC: What did you think of it that first time you saw it lit up? EL: I was very impressed. Star city of the South. I actually thought it was pretty nice. Then they built some radio towers and all up there. In fact, we've got a repeater up there. BC: For radio? EL: Uh huh. BC: For the CB? 11 �EL: HAM. BC: HAM. That's right. I forgot about that from last time. EL: You say, “Well, what's the difference?”. The difference is that you have to have a license to be a HAM operator. You have to be licensed by the FCC. BC: That's why everybody has those call signals, call signs. EL: Yeah, right. BC: Call signs, that's right. How long have you had a license. EL: Since 1980. I got mine – I didn't much want to try for it because that code, you know, you had to do Morse code. When I was in the service, when I first went in, that was one of the first things they did is give me a test for Morse code and I was tired and wore out. Shoot, I just flunked that good. So, I didn't figure I could pass it. I refused to even try for it for a long time. My son, he got his and he said he kept insisting that he got to Richmond and he was at MCV and we couldn't communicate without radio or telephone and telephones was pretty expensive. So, I went ahead and tried for it and got it and I moved up and got my next step which gave me voice and so, it was pretty interesting. BC: What's an MCV? EL: Medical College of Virginia. BC: Oh, OK. EL: I'm sorry, I wasn't BC: That's why I'm asking. I just wasn't familiar. EL: All three of my children graduated from MCV. Or actually, the new name is VCU. BC: That I am familiar with. 0.59.58.8 EL: My daughter graduated from Pharmacy. My son graduated from Medicine. And my other daughter graduated from the Teaching section. BC: Did pretty well. EL: Yeah, they did. They've done well. I certainly am proud of 'em for their – they never did give me any trouble. BC: That's good. Well Emerson, I'm pretty much out of questions but is there anything EL: C'mon. BC: I know, we made it through. EL: Oh, no. BC: Is there anything that I've kinda sparked that you just want to tell about or another one of these vague questions for you? EL: I do remember the streetcars. BC: What were the streetcars like? 'Cause I know now they're talking about potentially bringing back one. What was that like? EL: They were just like a railroad car almost. They were on rails and they were powered by electricity by the wire. They'd haul 40 or 50 people on one car. And I've seen 'em loaded. BC: I bet. And you said they went all over town? EL: Yeah. And down at Campbell Avenue and Jefferson Street, they had one of the few diamond crossovers that there were in the world. BC: What is a diamond crossover? EL: It means that you could come down – You've got 2 tracks coming in from both directions and you can go any direction off of 'em. BC: Oh wow. That would be helpful. EL: Yeah. And that's one of the things that many people don't know about it. They pulled 'em all out. BC: How much did it cost? Do you remember? EL: To ride the streetcar? 12 �BC: Mm mm. EL: Probably a dime. I think it was a dime and you'd get 3 tokens and you got 3 tokens for a quarter. BC: Once you paid your money, would you stay on it until you got off of it or did you have specific stops that you had to get off at? EL: Well, you rode it to where you wanted to get off. For instance, if you were going to Northwest, I guess its Northwest, went up West-end, they had a track that ran all the way up to 18th Street West-end. If you were going to someplace in-between there and you'd get there, all you did was pull the cord and they'd stop at the next stop and then you'd get off. They had a door at the back. They had one going in at the front and one at the back. You'd go in at the front and out at the back. That's what they did. That would pretty well cover that because it depended on where you were going, you'd get on the streetcar and you'd ride to where you wanted to go and then you'd get off. Or, you could ride on to the end of the line. But not advantage to that if you wanted to get off. BC: That is true. EL: Well BC: Any other last thoughts. EL: There should be. BC: Of course. Emerson, I'd like to thank you again for doing a second interview and I appreciate your time. EL: I hope its been something that you could use. BC: It is. It is. There's a lot of stuff that's floating around in your head right now that most people living in Roanoke have never experienced and that's what we're trying to do, get it down and preserve it. I really appreciate your time. EL: There used to be a streetcar line that ran from Vinton all the way to Salem. BC: How long did that take? EL: I don't know. I never did ride it. It went all the way from Vinton to Salem. And down across Tinker Creek, one time they had a streetcar wreck there. BC: Were you on one of the streetcars? 1.04.49.1 EL: No. But I just happened to read about it. That was before I came to Roanoke. The streetcars were noisy but they were certainly very helpful as far as transporting you from here to yonder. BC: During the time of the streetcars, did they have a small bus service available as well. EL: Yeah, that came after they first got 'em. Streetcars were first. They started way back. The buses – I remember some of those old buses. They were scrongy looking things. I didn't like 'em. Then, they got a newer model and then I'd ride them all the time. BC: Wouldn't ride the old ones though, huh? EL: No. I didn't care anything about them. I used to use the buses and streetcars to find my way around town. They used to run – the bus didn't come up my street, it was one block over. I used to go over to catch it and ride along and talk to the driver for an hour or two. That was my entertainment. BC: His too, right? EL: Yeah, I guess. Oh me. BC: You can learn your way around the city pretty quick talking to the bus drivers and the streetcar drivers. EL: Yes. BC: Emerson, thank you. I appreciate it. EL: You're welcome. I'm sorry that I didn't have much to add. BC: You had quite a bit more to add. 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Emerson Lamb Subject The topic of the resource Southeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Emerson Lamb Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 26 November 2007 Location: Our Lady of the Valley Total Duration: 1:07:04 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26 November 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Emerson Lamb; Brian Clark; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LambEmerson https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2670/HighfillWilliam.1.mp3 038ee40a468f40c04374ea24f80bb774 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2670/HighfillWilliam..pdf 10d7a140c15f256d28553902ae7189b3 PDF Text Text Interviewee: William (Hank) Highfill, III Interviewer: Brian Clark Transcriber: Andrew Sterling BC: This interview is with Hilliam H. Highfill, Hank, at his residence at 4334 Kirkwood Drive, Southwest, on November 19, 2007. I am Brian Clark the interviewer. Again, thank you for agreeing to this today. I know you've lived in this area for most of your life now, so, where and when were you born? WH: I was born at the old Jefferson Hospital in downtown Roanoke on May 9, 1947. BC: What neighborhood did you grow up in? WH: I grew up in BelAir Circle which is Southwest, it was Southwest County of Roanoke and now its in the city of Roanoke off of Lee Highway across from – used to be an Arlen's (??) there. Now, there's a steakhouse and a McDonald's, across Cakey Road from Lewis Gayle Hospital. Lewis Gayle Hospital was a corn field when I grew up. That's where I grew up in that neighborhood. BC: How long did you live there? WH: I lived there from birth until I graduated from college and went into the military. So, 21-22 years. BC: Did you live there when it was annexed by the city? WH: No, it was annexed by the city after I left and went in the military. Its been part of Roanoke probably since some point in the '70s. BC: Talk to me just a little bit about your family, your parents, siblings. WH: My mom was 1 of 11 children born to Dr. and Mrs. G.M. Maxwell. My grandfather was an MD and Eye, Ear, Nose and Throat Specialist practicing out of the old Medical Arts Building in downtown Roanoke. Its now the Professional Arts Building next to the Appalachian Power Company. She was 1 of 11 children. My dad BC: What was your mom's name? WH: Caroline, Maxwell was her middle name, Highfill. She was as I said 1 of the 11 Maxwell children who all were born and raised there in BelAir Circle. My dad was born and raised in the city of Roanoke. His dad worked for the old railroad express agency in Roanoke and he grew up in old Southeast and then his parents moved to the Southwest part of the city. Both my parents went to high school. My mother went to the old Salem High School which became Andrew Lewis. My dad went to Jefferson High School. They both went to Roanoke College where they met. They were married and took up residence in Roanoke and raised 8 children there and my mom died 10 years ago. My dad still lives in the home on BelAir Circle. BC: What was your dad's name? WH: William H. Highfill, Jr. I'm the 3rd. BC: I didn't catch the 3rd when I announced that. You are right. WH: I'm the first son of 8 children. I have 2 older sisters. BC: So it was all 8 of you plus your parents living in one house. WH: And my grandparents lived next door. They gave my parents land when they married and my parents built a home next to my grandparents' home so I grew up with my grandparents and 2 maiden aunts living next door and then my family of 8 children and my mom and dad. So, we had a large family right there in BelAir Circle. It was a great place to grow up. BC: I bet. Now you mentioned you lived where Lewis Gayle was a cornfield, did you guys have a family garden? WH: We had – My dad had a garden but he and his brother, my Uncle Gordon who grew up in Roanoke also, at one point, tried to raise pheasants there in the back yard. It was rural at that point you gotta remember. My dad and my uncle, when I was probably in grade school, had a huge pen down in 1 �the backyard and they raised pheasants and sold 'em to the Hotel Roanoke where they served pheasant for a number of years and then they gave it up 'cause it was too much trouble. Its hard to raise 8 children and not spook the pheasants. (laughing) BC: I bet. WH: We used to spook 'em regularly. My dad worked for the Federal Government. 0.05.00.6 BC: What did he do? WH: He worked for what is now the Department of Veteran's Affairs. It was then the old VA, Veteran's Administration, and he worked there for just about 40 years. He worked his way up from a clerk all the way to the manager, the top position in the regional office for the last 10 or 12 years of his career. So he was a federal employee and retired as such, as I did. BC: Now where did you work? WH: I started out while I was Roanoke College working for the post office as a 20 hour a week, parttime college student. From there, I went into the United States Air Force where I flew heavy jets for almost – Well, I was in for almost 6 years. I was a pilot. I left there and went with the Department of Labor, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration in Roanoke and then, I went with the VA but I couldn't work in Roanoke because my dad was there. So, I worked in Winston-Salem, North Carolina for 3 years. And when my dad retired, I was able to transfer back to Roanoke and I worked the last 22 years of my career at the regional office in downtown as an Administrative Officer. I ran all of the inhouse administrative functions for the VA. BC: Did your mom work as well or did she stay home? WH: My mom raised 8 kids and then, when we all reached school age and started going to college, she went to work as a teacher. And she worked as a teacher in Special-Ed, special needs kids, during the whole time that she and my dad were putting 8 of us through college. Then, she retired. So she had 2 careers. She raised 8 children then she went to work as a teacher and then she retired. BC: What kind of activities did you participate in as a child growing up? WH: (chuckling) We had 8 children in the house and we had a huge extended family because my grandparents had 11 children. So we had cousins just – So, we never lacked for playmates. And it was a rural area – Like I said, Lewis Gayle didn't exist. It was a cornfield. We just played in that neighborhood and invented our own games and had a ball. But it was a terrific way to grow up. But it wasn't anything like it – We would walk to – You know where the River Jack is, 419 and Lee Highway? BC: Mm mm. WH: That's about 2 or 3 miles from our home and we would walk to there and buy a drink and then get in an inter-tube in the Roanoke River and then float home. (laughing) I mean it was that – It was – Our parents didn't worry about us because it was just a different world and we just ran loose and had a ball. It was a terrific way to grow up. BC: When did you start going to school and where did you start? WH: My education took place in a 5 block area in downtown Salem. I went to the old Academy Street Elementary School for 1-3. I moved a block over to Broad Street Elementary School, which is the original Salem High School before Andrew Lewis was built, for grades 4, 5, and 6. Then, I moved 4 block or so down College Avenue to the Andrew Lewis Annex for the 7th grade. Across the street to the Andrew Lewis High School for 8-12 and 2 blocks up the street to Roanoke College for my college education. So, my entire education, grade school through college, took place in an area that you could walk in. Its really pretty amazing. BC: That is pretty amazing. (laughing) WH: Most of my brothers and sisters did that, 6 of us. 8 of us – we all got college degrees, 6 from Roanoke and 2 from King College in Bristol. BC: So what was school growing up like for you at elementary? 2 �WH: It was a totally different world than it is today that it was – I mean, I don't really know how to describe it except that it was very comfortable. More laid back than it is now. The teachers – I mean, I got a good education but there was a great deal more discipline than there is today. There weren't nearly the distractions and the problems that kids face today. It was a very easy time to grow up. We didn't have – I mean, there wasn't any such thing as a cell phone or an i-pod or – I didn't even know what marijuana was until I was almost a senior in high school. It was just a much more laid back, easy going and the discipline was much more strict if that's what you'd want to call it. It was a “No ma'am”, “Yes, sir” type education. You did what you were told or you got popped in those days. 0.10.39.6 BC: Did you ever have an occasion to get popped? WH: Never. Although, I had a 6th grade teacher who didn't like me. She gave me a pop one day when I was in the 6th grade 'cause I was – we were at the Roanoke – we were at the annex and the annex was across the street, 4th street from Manfred Lewis and she's teaching Health class and a truck, a big old 18 wheeler pulled up to the stop light and I was conversing with the driver (laughing) and I got – but no, I was not a bad kid. But it was really a good basic education with a lot of, what I would call, pretty strong discipline. BC: Did you go on to any school after Roanoke College? WH: I graduated from Roanoke in June of 1969, and on July 3rd of that year, I was sworn into the Air Force. I went to Officer Candidate School for 12 weeks and became a 2nd Lieutenant and then I went for 1 year of pilot training. And I would say that was the toughest year of education I've had. I think it would probably rival in intensity and just plain, old-fashioned hard work of any post-graduate degree. It was good, hard BC: What was your major at Roanoke? WH: Business Administration. I always wanted to fly my entire life but I didn't have any interest in mathematics and engineering which – and if it hadn't been for the fact that there was the Vietnam War going on and there was a need for pilots, I would've probably never gotten accepted. But, I scored very high on the test that they give for pilot training candidates. My physical was perfect and I got put on the waiting list. They said, “You meet all the qualifications but we don't have a spot for you but we'll put you on our stand-by list”. I called my recruiter and said, “I'm gonna go join the navy.”. He said, “Wait a minute.”. A week later, I was in pilot training. Well, I was in the class to go to officer training school and I got to fly. BC: Did you actually do any service in the war? WH: Yeah. I flew heavy jets, C141, 4 engine jet transports and Jamie and I were married after I finished officer training school and before I went to pilot training. So she went to pilot training with me, one of the reasons I made it through I think, having that stability and someone there with me. We graduated pilot training and you're able to select the aircraft you're gonna fly based on your rating in the class. I was able to get the airplane I wanted so I could fly worldwide airlift. And then we were stationed at Dover, Delaware and we flew support missions in and out of Vietnam and Thailand. I was never stationed there. I would fly materials in and load whatever they had coming out which, in a lot of cases, involved hospital ship flights. We'd bring back wounded and fly them back out. I flew in support of the war. I didn't actually participate in the war. It was good. A good experience. BC: I bet. WH: I went in to – I used to go into Utapao, Thailand, and Saigon. The big base at Tan Son Nhut, you've probably heard of it – We'd go into there and go in just before light so we could get on the ground and it would still be dark. They'd load us and we'd take off just at sunrise just to get out of there before things got hectic if they were going to get hectic. It was – I had a great, great experience. 0.15.18.8 BC: I know you were in support but you were still there. 3 �WH: I flew some interesting missions. BC: What was your interest in flying? WH: I had 2 uncles that flew. I had an uncle who flew off of destroyer. He was catapulted off of a destroyer and then he would land – It was a sea plane – He would land on the water and they'd hoist him back up on. And then I had another uncle who flew off of carriers but he died in a training mission just before the war started. And then on my dad's side, my uncle Gordon flew military transport during the war. I always had a love for airplanes. I always wanted to fly one. BC: And then you did. WH: And I did. Once I got over being air sick. (laughing) It was awful. It was awful. But I was terribly air sick for the first 6 months but once I got over it, it was wonderful. BC: Bringing it back towards Roanoke, if I say BelAir, Roanoke, from your childhood, what's the first memory that comes to mind that sticks out? WH: Just – We lived up on that hill above – and the VA hospital was across the way and we could sit up on the hill and watch the trains, the old locomotives, the steam-driven locomotives, going in and out of Roanoke and they still had the Powhatan and the Pocahontas which were passenger. They were two of the last passenger trains that ran in and out of Roanoke and I can remember from being very young sitting up on my grandparents' front yard. You could look down and watch those steam locomotives come in and out of – that's one of my earliest memories. The Lee High Drive In Theater was just across the river and we could sit up there at night and watch movies. (laughing) BC: Right from your house. WH: From my grandparents' front yard. It was just a terrific place to grow up. It really was. I was lucky. But that's some of my earliest memories. And just being able to – My mother never – We got up in the morning, she'd fix us breakfast – This was before I started school and all. We just ran loose all day long. It was – There wasn't any real trouble to get into. And we just played in the neighborhood. That's how I grew up. BC: Did you all – your family or yourself – was there a focal point like a radio or TV or anything like that? WH: We got a TV. I'll always remember when we got a TV because I was relatively young, probably in the mid '50s and we got an old black and white console television and my dad set it up with the antenna up on the roof. And the first program I ever watched was Walt Disney's – Whatever that show they had. It wasn't Disney World at the time. Wonderful World – It might've been called the Wonderful – I think it was just called Disney Land. And then, Davy Crockett, Paladin. You don't remember any of these. You're too young. Gunsmoke. Every – We all hated Sundays because that was the Sunda night – but on Sunday night, Liberace came on at like 6 o'clock and then at 6:30 or 7:00 was what became the Wonderful World of Disney. It was Disney Land. And then there was the Ponderosa and Have Gun Will Travel and Gunsmoke. I grew up every Sunday night watching those shows and dreading going to bed and going to school the next day. Our vacation one year – Our family vacation one year when my dad was still working his way up through the organization and they were just struggling to make ends meet was we went to the S&W Cafeteria down in Roanoke with 8 kids. We went to the old American Theater and saw How the West Was Won. That would've been in the '60s sometime. Everything revolved around the family because there wasn't money to do stuff with 8 children so it was all just family. And every weekend there were cousins on the hill visiting my grandparents and we'd just – It was all – My whole growing up experience was just that nuclear family. My family and the cousins and my grandparents and my parents. 0.20.47.5 BC: Did you guys have a porch on your house at all? WH: We had a small front porch where we played – Did you ever grow up playing Kick the Can? BC: No. 4 �WH: (laughing) It was kinda a hide and seek game but there was – We'd put a soup can out on the – and the front porch was “safe” and whoever was “it” had to go out – The can would sit out on the sidewalk in front of the porch and if you'd go out and find somebody then you had to race back and if you could – If the person who was “it” could run back and put his foot on the can and say the person's name, they were captured but if that person could beat you there and kick the can, then, they got to run and hide until the person found the can and reset it. (laughing) We'd play that for hours on that front porch in front of my house. And you'd be racing back and the person who was “it” was trying to put their foot on the can and you were trying – and it was called Kick the Can. We grew up playing that game. There would be 8 of myself and the siblings and then 10 or 12 cousins and you'd have kids all over the neighborhood. BC: You guys practically had your own school. WH: We had our own football games and baseball games. We played softball in the yard for years and throwback football? BC: Hmm. WH: You don't have teams and you'd have one goal line and everybody stands out in the football field. You'd kick the ball and whoever catches it tries to run to that one goal line. Everybody else tries to tackle 'em. And when they're tackled, they have to stop, pick the ball up, and throw it back over their head, whoever catches it – So its a slow advance down the field until somebody finally scores. We played that for hours. Throwback. BC: Besides the games and everything, did your family or siblings have any chores or anything around the house? WH: My sisters had to work in the house doing the dishes and stuff and I, being the oldest boy, had to mow the yard. And things like taking the garbage out and that kind of stuff. But my job, because I was the oldest boy, the only one they'd allow to use a mower, I'd spend just hours and hours because we had a huge yard and I mowed all summer long. The yard was so big Brian, that if it was really rainy, I could mow the whole yard and just about have to start over. And I mowed – I still love to mow. BC: Its a good thing. WH: Yeah, that was my job. I mowed all summer long. During the winter, no. I mean, there were 8 children so somebody had to take the trash out but it wasn't like there were 8 jobs to be BC: Yeah. WH: We got a quarter allowance for it and that's what I got for doing all the mowing too. I mean, there wasn't any – a quarter a week. That was pretty good money. BC: Are there any stories that are passed down in your family or things that – recipes or styles of cooking or things that have come down from your parents? 0.24.28.7 WH: My mother was a really an outstanding cook but the thing that was most amazing about my mom and the cooking was that there were 8 of us and every single meal, she, except for breakfast, but every dinner, she would cook 5 pounds of potatoes and serve mashed potatoes. 5 pounds worth of mashed potatoes or an equal amount of rice at every meal simply because she had 4 growing boys and 4 girls and she cooked all the time. So, our meals were a big deal because we had – we didn't have a formal dining room. We had a great big kitchen and the older ones got to sit at the kitchen table with my parents and the younger ones had to sit at the counter adjoining and meals were quite a production until we all got old enough to start doing stuff. We all started playing sports and all. And then, meals only became a big deal on weekends because it was just – there was so much going on that with 8 of us in school and the boys playing sports and the girls doing this, the only time once we got older that we ever ate together was on weekends because my mother was just feeding kind of a production line type thing. And we'd go over to my grand – Like I said, my cousins were in every weekend because we had cousins in town. We had cousins in Blacksburg. My uncle was a professor at Virginia Tech and there 5 �was always a huge family meal on Sundays at my grandmother's. There could be 30 people there. BC: Boy. Puts a new thought on Thanksgiving. WH: So it was a big deal. Yeah, we kinda grew up around meals because there was such a huge number of people. Meals were such a big deal. And when we were younger, the whole family would go camping at Catawba on the 4th of July and Labor Day and that was a humongous deal. There'd be 30 of 40 of us camping on the creek at Catawba. Those are unbelievable memories. That huge crowd out there. The women spent the whole time cooking and feeding all those people. So, yeah, when you're that big a family, everything kinda revolves around feeding 'em all. Most of my memories of the group revolve around either sporting events where we all were or meals where we all were. And then, as we got older and older – There were 4 of us at college at one time and the other 4 were in grade school and high school so, it would seem like to me sometimes I could go a day or two and not see the whole family. It just became such a big – It was the initial growing up phase. Everything was all about – It was great. It really was. BC: Were there any shops or businesses in BelAir that you guys particularly hung out at? WH: When we were young, the closest place was Charlie's Market which I told you was at the River Jack and we would all find a way to get a dime and – this was just the boys – We'd hike up there and we'd call it “going to Charlie's”. They'd say, “What do you want to do?” and we'd all say, “Let's go to Charlie's.”. We'd all scrounge up a dime and we'd hike all the way up to Charlie's and we get a soda and a Moon Pie or something and we'd either float back in the river or we'd walk back home. But that was the closest business until the BelAir Lawn and Garden Center opened which is down at the intersection of Keagy Road and Lee Highway. Its now a McDonald's but that's where the BelAir Lawn and Garden Center was. That was the first business that was – I mean you could hit it from up on top of the hill and we did on occasion with a walnut or an apple. (laughing) We used to stand up on top of the hill. The whole side of the hill was an apple orchard and at night, as young boys, we'd sit up on top of the hill and try to hit cars going down on Keagy Road with an apple. (laughing) I mean, they weren't big apples. They were those old yellow apples. But every once in a while, we'd hit one. (laughing) BC: Did they stop? WH: Yeah they'd stop. (laughing) But we were clean up on the hill and we were invisible. But that was the only kind of mischief that we ever got into was hitting cars with apples. That business opened and then they built that shopping center across the road. One year, before that – That was an airport by the way. When my mother was young, they lived up on top of that hill above – BelAir was up on top of the hill up above Lee Highway and across the road was a field where there's now an Appalachian Power substation and a shopping center with some medical offices and a Chinese or Japanese restaurant. 0.30.12.0 BC: Sakura. WH: Yeah. That was all an open field and at one time, it was an airport. On Sundays, the bi-planes would fly and there would be parachute jumping into that field and my mom watched a guy whose chute didn't open. She's always talked about that as one of her vivid childhood memories was a guy that jumped off the wing of a bi-plane and the chute didn't open. But there was an airport down there. Then they built the substation and an Arlen's. Do you remember Arlen's? BC: No. WH: Arlen's was a precurser to Kmart and that kind of stuff. It was kind of a discount department store. When I was in the 7th grade, the circus came to town and set up in that field. That would've been 1959 maybe. So that was the last time that that field was a field. And we went down at 5 o'clock in the morning and got jobs putting up the big top and working the circus all day for free admission. After that, they built that shopping center there which would've been 1960, 1961. There have been 6 �businesses there ever since. But before that, I was 12 or 13 years old before any type of business other than Charlie's Market which was 3 miles away. So that's how rural it was. And the only reason we got to go to Salem schools was we were in the county and Salem had county schools at that point. It wasn't a corporated city, it was a town. And the kids on either side of us – My grandparent's house faced Lee Highway up on top of the hill. My dad built next to 'em facing Lee Highway. Everybody else in the neighborhood who built over the years, built facing the other direction which is basically south. They were all Cave Spring people but we lived on Lee Highway technically because we faced it. So, the kids next door and behind us went to Cave Spring High School. My family went to Andrew Lewis High School because we lived on Lee Highway and they lived on BelAir Circle. BC: Was there any contention because of that? WH: Well, yeah. When I was growing up, there were like 5 houses in BelAir. Its now a huge development. There were like 5 houses and 4 of those houses had kids growing up who were basically my age and they all grew up going to Cave Spring schools and my family – There might have been 8 or 9 of them and there were 8 of us. It was a pretty fair fight. But we were good friends as youngsters but as we grew up, they grew up in Cave Spring and we grew up in Salem. So, we kinda drifted apart that way. I always considered myself more of a Salem person than a Roanoke person because I was educated there. BC: All the way through? WH: All the way through. BC: That's interesting. WH: Yeah it is. BC: What – I don't know if there's anything additional to what you've already added, what type of things were important to you in the actual physical area where you lived? WH: You know until I was high school age, my whole world revolved around my family because there was me and my brothers and sisters and my cousins. We didn't really have outside friends. It was all that – because it was such a big thing that it was all family. We didn't play much with other kids because we didn't need to. If we got involved with other people it was because they came to us and it took until I was in high school before I started developing friends and all outside of that very tight family-type group. So, until I was 12 or 13 years old, my whole world revolved around BelAir Circle and the “Maxwell Clan” as we were called because my grandparents were Maxwells and my mom, of course, was a Maxwell, so, I kinda grew up a Maxwell rather than a Highfill. It took 'til high school for me to start seeing the world outside of my own family because it was such a huge thing. There wasn't any need for - other kids grew up running around with the neighborhood kids. I grew up with my family. 0.35.01.4 BC: What was it like – You were away for the military, Air Force and you were away in North Carolina – Was it Winston-Salem? WH: Winston Salem. BC: Did you experience anything different when you returned to Roanoke after those times away? WH: Yeah, Roanoke became a totally different place for me after I grew up as opposed to those first formative years. Roanoke was my grandfather's medical practice at the Medical Arts Building and the rare occasion when I went downtown to my dad's office – because he worked in downtown Roanoke – and an occasional trip to the S&W Cafeteria which was a big deal in those days and the Roanoke Christmas Parade. That was – It was a place where we went but it wasn't really a part of our lives as much as Salem was in our family. But after I grew up and came back home, particularly from the military, I mean that's where I worked. Roanoke became more of a focus than Salem really did. BC: Did you notice any differences in your perspective coming back? WH: Yeah. I mean the world changed in the 60s drastically at least from my perspective. It was really 7 �– I grew up in what I would call kinda an innocent age. I mean I really didn't think much about anything other than just that little world I was growing up in. But the 60s changed everything. I think '63 when John F. Kennedy got assassinated changed me dramatically and in '68 my whole world kinda changed in '68 because when – That year Martin Luther King was killed, Bobby Kennedy was killed, the Vietnam War was extremely divisive thing and it was the first election I voted in. The whole world kinda – and I became, and the people I grew up with, those late 60s changed us from the innocent kinda world we grew up in to a pretty cynical. I became pretty cynical about things from '63 is when it started with that first assassination but '68 really – I think it was a watermark at least in my life and the way I viewed the world because those 2 assassinations and the War and the Richard Nixon and Hubert Humphrey election and subsequent Watergate. I served during the Vietnam War. I saw all that divisiveness. Roanoke was all part of that. I mean, you know, my view of things – Roanoke was an idyllic place when I grew up and during the 60s when I really did grow up, everything, my perspectives on everything changed. BC: Was it any different at that point or do you think you just noticed it? 0.38.28.6 WH: I think I just – Well, I think the world changed during the 60s. I really do. I think the way we looked at the world – I'm just talking about we the people who I grew up with – The way we viewed the world in the 50s was drastically different than the way we viewed it by the late 60s and it wasn't just because we grew up. Its because of what we grew up seeing and experiencing. The political situation, the assassinations and the Vietnam War and then serving in it. I didn't serve in the war but I was there. I went in – I would go in, fly into Tan Son Nhut like I said and just outside Tan Son Nhut was a huge mountain. There was an outpost on that mountain and they would put troops up there at night and we'd land in the morning and those troops would be coming down and I would walk into the Mess in my nice clean flight suit and my shiny boots and my Captain's bars and I'd walk in and those soldiers who had been up on that mountain all night long with the Viet – We'd walk in and they would look at me and I could tell the way, it wasn't just that I was an officer. I was the guy who was bringing the shit and taking the shit out and I didn't have to stay there. It was different. I will remember sitting in those Mess tents and eating with those guys and I could just feel 'em looking at me like, “(whispered) He's coming in and he gets to leave”. The hollow look in their eyes. It changes – And I was taking out – I had one whole airplane full of burn victims and the airplane smelled like it. And we picked 'em up in Japan and they were stacked like cord wood. I didn't think you could have this many guys who were that badly burned but they would stack the litters up in the cargo hold of the airplane, the nurses all around 'em. And they'd stack 'em in there and we'd take off and we'd fly 12 hours, 12.3 hours, land in San Francisco. They'd unload 'em all. We'd go get 8 hours of rest and then load those poor sons of bitches, sons of guns back on there and I'd fly most of 'em to the burn center at San Antonio and then a few others would go to Illinois. And I also brought home an entire plane-load of drug addicts, kids who had gone over there and gotten hooked on heroin and they would be so sedated that, you know, that changed you. So, yeah, Roanoke was a different place after like I said the mid to late 60s everything – Roanoke changed just like everywhere. I think a lot of it was my view of the world but, yeah, Roanoke was a different place. BC: What was your first memory coming back after the war? Stepping back into home or Salem or Roanoke? WH: Well, Janie and I were at Dover and then at Charleston, Dover, Delaware and Charleston, South Carolina and then I came back to Roanoke after I got out of the military and it took 8 months to get a job. So, we were on unemployment. I had unemployment benefits built up and we were on unemployment and I spent 8 months trying to find a job in Roanoke. My first memory was there – I just didn't think I was ever going to get one. Then, I really got lucky. A guy that worked at the VA was, where my dad was the head honcho so I couldn't work for the VA, was playing poker with a guy who 8 �had just been transferred to Roanoke with the Department of Labor and he was establishing an OSHA office and he told him he had to hire 6 or 8 new guys and train 'em to be Safety and Health Specialists. This guy says, “Hey, I know this guy who just got out the -” - He was a retired Army Colonel. He said, “I know a guy who just got out of the Air Force and he's looking for a job.”. He said, “Send him to see me.”. I walked in the door and we hit it off right away because we both were military. I had just – He hired me and that's how I got into the, got to stay with the Federal Government 'cause I had been an employee of the Post Office for 2 ½ years, 6 years in the military and then I just got to pick right on up with the Department of Labor and I put in a total of 35 years. By the time I was 55 years old, I had 35 years in the Federal Government. BC: That's incredible. WH: From age 20 to age 55. BC: Wow. WH: And most of it was in Roanoke. The 3 years in Winston-Salem and the 6 years in the Air Force. The rest of it was in the old Carlton Terrace Building where I was drafted. I was drafted after my freshman year at Roanoke College because Roanoke College, bless their hearts, didn't send my status, you were deferred. They didn't send my grades and my deferment in and I was drafted. I called the draft board and they said, “I'm sorry, you've been drafted.”. I said, “I'm deferred. I'm a student.”. They said – So I had to go take my draft physical at the Carlton Terrace Building at downtown Roanoke which is just up from Kirk Hospital, community hospital. And I took my draft physical there and was processed and then my deferment came through so I didn't have to go. I came back from the Air Force, landed a job with the Department of Labor in the Carlton Terrace Building 1 floor below where I took my draft physical. That was my first job after – That was – I came back to the place that I had taken my draft physical 8 years earlier. But I worked in downtown Roanoke from that point until I retired. 0.45.20.5 BC: Wow. I know that you've done a lot of work in the community at least with Roanoke College and Habitat WH: Since I retired. BC: What other types of organizations or civic groups or community projects have you been involved in? WH: I was never – My dad is a big civic type guy. He belonged to the Kiwanis Club and he's always trying to get me to join and I was never a joiner. I did – Janie and I since we were married have always had a foster child with Save the Children and we've always adopted at least one family or more at Christmas and tried to make sure that they got same Christmas that we gave our kids. But, until I retired, I didn't get a whole lot of involvement 'cause I, I don't know. I'll be honest with ya. I was just working and I didn't get very involved. BC: There's no harm in that. WH: No. But once, except for that one thing that we've always done which is great because our girls grew up doing it with us and now they do it. And my sister is a social worker with the Roanoke City and she's always giving us families that really needed something so we always felt like we were really doing something good for – But that was it. I wasn't much of a joiner. BC: Do you remember growing up in your neighborhood or Roanoke, you had mentioned the parade, were there other cultural type events that you attended as a child? It doesn't sound like there was much in your neighborhood but WH: There wasn't much in our neighborhood. The annual Christmas parade was always a big deal and there was one in Roanoke and one in Salem and I remember there was a – I think they called it the American Legion Auditorium or maybe the Roanoke. It was the major auditorium and it burned down. It was a big deal when it burned. But I remember my dad taking us there to see Gene Autry. But, like I 9 �said, my parents had their hands absolutely full raising and educating 8 children so we didn't do much outside the family until we got older. BC: It sounds like your family was a cultural event. WH: We couldn't afford anything else. So those things that stood out were those things that we did get to do, going to the parades and stuff that didn't cost my mom and dad any money. BC: You worked in Roanoke for a good portion of your employment. WH: I liked working in downtown Roanoke. BC: I know there were a few things that impacted the community like the silk mills when they closed. WH: My dad worked there. BC: No kidding? WH: Rayon. You're talking about – What was it? - What was the name of that huge plant in downtown Roanoke that made Rayon? BC: I can't remember. WH: But anyway, that was his first job before he finally – before he got in with the Federal Government. I remember when that – that was really an economic disaster at the time for Roanoke because it was a huge plant and it was probably the largest producer of Rayon in the country if not the world. And then Rayon lost its favor in the market. Better synthetic materials came along. Rayon was a big deal and Roanoke had a huge plant. That plant is still – Its in old Southeast right on the Roanoke River and when that plant closed, I remember the – it didn't affect me but I remember that it was really a big deal with the impact it had on Roanoke. BC: Were there other similar types of economic events that you remember? 0.49.32.6 WH: Roanoke was a railroad town. My grandfather was with the Railroad Express Agency and when my dad grew up and when I was young, everything revolved around the railroad. And the N&W shops just dominated downtown. That changed and I remember it happening. It seemed like to me when the GE plant came to Salem, that was a huge thing. But Roanoke changed from a railroad town to a banking town. I've watched that happen. I mean as I remember Roanoke growing up, there was basically one bank and that was the First National Exchange Bank which was down on Jefferson Street and Campbell. That was – There was a Colonial American across the street but FNEB and what it became was it. Roanoke has just become – well, its the banking center for this part of the state. BC: Sure. WH: And that's what I – I watched it change from a railroad town to what I would consider a - banking has got to be one of the major – I don't know that for a fact but it seems like to me I watched Roanoke change from a railroad town to a banking center and then the VA hospital and GE plant. BC: Big difference. WH: Huge difference. BC: Did anybody, any of your friends, neighbors or anybody, not that you had a whole lot of neighbors but did anybody own their own businesses? WH: The guy next door was an architect and he had his office down at the foot of the hill and tried to make a go of it as an architect and finally had to give it up and went to work for my dad at the VA and the Loan Guarantee and the neighbors down the street, the Cook family, ran the BelAir Lawn and Garden Center which was a privately owned business. And one of my neighbors ran the Buya (??) Hardware Store. The other neighbors were professional people, several doctors in the neighborhood and a guy that sold drugs, not illegal drugs. BC: I was getting ready to ask, a pharmacy? (both laughing) WH: He sold pharmaceuticals. But I mean, the only people that I grew up around or knew that had their own businesses were the Cooks who had the BelAir Lawn and Garden and Dick Grant who, I don't know if you'd call it a business but he had his architect shop down there on Lee Highway. And 10 �the hardware store. But, no, nobody else that I knew that ran their own businesses. BC: Suppose if you were to maybe take a step back 5 years to today and maybe take a step outside of Roanoke, and if somebody came up to you that was maybe from Montreal or London or Atlanta, how would you describe Roanoke to 'em? WH: Well, I've always kinda felt like Roanoke and Salem both were a little bit of a closed society to – You were a Roanoker or a Salemite and that made you part of the “in” crowd and then if you weren't, you weren't. I've always kinda felt like when I was growing up and it still is a whole lot that way in Salem I think. I think you're a Salemite or you're not and I always felt like Roanoke was the same way but that has changed as I've gotten older. I think the population of Roanoke has changed drastically. When I was growing up, everybody kinda felt like they were Roanokers or Salem people. And now, I don't think its nearly – Yeah, I felt like we were a little bit in the other places I've lived, the societies I thought were more open and receptive than Roanoke and Salem were if you weren't part of the “in” crowd, at least my feeling was when I was growing up, you were either one of us or you weren't. You were part of the Roanoke-Salem community or you were an outsider. I don't think that's the way it is today but that's the way it was then. BC: If you were to imagine back all these long years (laughing) and or even today actually, if you were to imagine a walk, a favorite walk or a favorite drive in the Roanoke-Salem area, what might that be as a child or as an adult? 0.54.39.9 WH: The walk I spent twenty-some years taking a walk around downtown Roanoke everyday at lunch. I mean that's what my boss and I did is we walked and I've always kind of enjoyed just – you walk from the Federal Building down Franklin, through Elmwood, the City Market, across the bridge over to the Hotel Roanoke – I always thought that was a terrific place just to walk. As far as driving, Mill Mountain and the Parkway. If I was going to drive, my two favorite drives would be to go up Mill Mountain and look out at the valley from the star and then go up the Parkway to Peaks of Otter or go over 311 to Catawba, get the old Blacksburg Road and ride all the way back up through the valley, Ellett Valley and all that all the way into Blacksburg and then down 460 back to Roanoke. I think those are terrific drives particularly in the fall. BC: They are. What are the biggest changes that you have – that really stand out in your mind if you were to think of this area as a child to now? You've mentioned a few I know but is there anything else that really stands out? WH: Well, its – Yeah, its, - Roanoke, and I shouldn't – has more of, to me, has more of a congestive big city feel than it did when I was young. I mean, there's just more people and Roanoke is land-locked and I – back then, I felt like there was all kinds of room and it didn't take you any time to get out of civilization and into the country. And now, I feel like Roanoke is just basically a land-locked community that is growing up the mountains. Its become uglier than it was in those days because the mountains were gorgeous and now the mountains are becoming developments. Roanoke has just gotten a whole lot bigger, a whole lot more crowded and its not nearly – its still a beautiful place but its not nearly as pretty as it used to be. Because now, particularly if you're going this way BC: Going towards Bent Mountain or? WH: Yeah, Bent Mountain. They're building everywhere 'cause there's no place to go. And if you – My brother's the football coach at William Byrd and he's been the head football coach there since 1981 and we've been playing in the same stadium every Friday night during the fall and I go out and we sit on the back row at the top and the view that you see from the back row at the top of that stadium now compared to 1980, you wouldn't know you were in the same place. BC: What's different? WH: Its – you now look over the visitor's stand back up towards the mountains and you see nothing but houses and you can now see traffic on the Parkway. And just 30 years ago, it was just mountains. 11 �You couldn't see the Parkway. Roanoke – I love Roanoke but Roanoke is, like I said, its locked in. There isn't but so much room in Roanoke and we've now reached a point where its a bowl and we're building right up the sides of the bowl to the rim 'cause there's no place else to go. That's my biggest disappointment in Roanoke. That and the fact that 419 – I mean I used to be able to walk that route. That's how we went to Charlie's Market and now I wouldn't. Its a different world. But I wouldn't even think about allowing my kids to do that when they were growing up. My parents didn't think a thing about it. BC: Have there been any positive changes to this area that - ? WH: Well, yeah, there's a whole lot more to do. Its a great place to live. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I mean I've said a lot of negative things about – But that's just a fact of 2008 versus 1947. BC: Big difference. WH: Totally different world. Roanoke's a great place and there's a whole more to do but its just a different place, a whole lot more people. Although, if you do the census I don't guess it – When I first started remembering – I remember when Roanoke broke 100,000. It was a big deal. Well, now, they're still struggling to, you know 1.00.07.1 BC: Still right there at it. WH: And it won't ever get – Because they've annexed everything they can annex. Its everything else that's getting bigger. Salem was 10,000 people. I remember that Roanoke was 60-70-80,000 people in the whole metropolitan area and Salem was 10 and it stayed that way. And now, Salem's probably 30, Roanoke's 100 and 4, 5, 6 or whatever. But the county's – I really can't – Unless you've been here – When we stood up there on that hill up – 'cause I grew up on a hill and you could look all the way over to Fort Lewis Mountain across the VA hospital and out to Salem and you didn't see anything. And now, you just see nothing, nothing but civilization. BC: And that's a lot of the reason why we're doing this is to help preserve some of that process. WH: Its phenomenal. And, I, you know, we'd sit up there and watch that train go. It was neat 'cause those were neat old trains, those steam engines. You'd wait for traffic to go down Lee Highway. You know a car would come and you'd wait a while and you'd see another car. Now, you can't cross Lee Highway. Different world. But I love it. I'm not knocking it. Its just a fact of life. We used to sleigh ride down my grandparent's front driveway all the way down the hill and come out at the bottom of the hill at Keagy Road at Lee Highway and my sister and several other people on a number of occasions would go on across the highway. (laughing) BC: Oh my gosh. WH: I mean they couldn't stop and I mean, there wasn't any traffic. You just shoot right across Lee Highway and into the field. Now, you know. BC: Won't do it now. WH: That's the environment I grew up in as opposed to – except for my Aunt Emma Hunter. Don't you tell her I said that. (laughing) She would drive us to school 'cause she was a teacher and we'd get – She got this from my grandfather. She'd stop at the foot of the hill and if there was traffic, you know, GE had opened and there was a lot more traffic. She'd wait what she figured was her allotted time. She'd say, “I've waited long enough” and she'd pull on out (laughing). BC: Even if somebody was coming? WH: (laughing) And I've heard my grandfather was the same way. My turn. (laughing) If you interview her, don't you even dare. That's another memory Brian. I can remember my parents – there were 8 of us and there were no seatbelts in cars and I grew up standing in the front seat between the driver and whoever the passenger – and every time we'd go down the road to the stop light, whoever was driving, the arm would come out to hold the child who was standing in the middle. And I 12 �remember. I would be standing. And I remember every time we came to a stop, my Aunt Emma Hunter or my mom or dad, whoever it was, would reach over and BC: Swing that right arm out. WH: Swing that arm out. You know, I grew up and finally realized what an absolute futile effort/attempt to do anything that was. I mean if – But there were 10 of us in that car, my parents and 8 kids and there wasn't a seatbelt in the thing. And we were stacked like cord wood 'cause we had a station wagon. There were 3 people in the front seat, 4 people in the second seat and that left at least 3, sometimes more, who were in the back of the station wagon. (laughing) Can you imagine what would've happened if they had hit a tree. (laughing) BC: That would've been bad. WH: And if they had had the requirement for child safety seats that they do now, my parents wouldn't have been able to take us anywhere but we just – They just stacked us back there, take a pillow and drive to Myrtle Beach with 10 people in that station wagon. 1.05.03.4 BC: That's incredible. WH: The first time I ever saw the beach, this wasn't a station wagon, 10 of us drove to Myrtle Beach in a Ford Fairlane and I mean there were kids all over the place. (both laughing) And back then, that was almost a 10 hour drive. Those are memories buddy. BC: Oh, I bet they are. It sounds like it. Well, speaking of that, I'm at the end of my questions Hank. Is there any other things like that that you, I've prompted or anything else come to mind? WH: Oh, I'll tell you one thing. I rode the last streetcar that ever ran in the city of Roanoke. My grandfather worked for the Railroad Express Company. He called my dad and said, “The last streetcar is going to run whenever and I'm coming out to get a friend” who could get him on the last streetcar run who worked for the city somehow. He said, “I'm gonna take him on the last run of the streetcar”. I was too young to remember it all. I've just been told this. He came out and got me, took me downtown, and my grandfather and I rode the last streetcar that ever ran in Roanoke. And I don't know what the date was, I don't know anything about it. But if you ever went back and found out when the last streetcar ran in Roanoke, I was on the sucker. (laughing) BC: I'll know where you were. That's great. WH: I guess. I don't even know where it ran. I know it ran down Campbell Avenue and up Jefferson Street. BC: Maybe they'll bring 'em back. We'll see. Well, Hank, thank you very much. WH: I don't know if it did any good. BC: It was great. WH: It was a hoot. BC: That was very good. Thank you very much. WH: You need to talk to – (recording ends) 13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with William Highfill, III Subject The topic of the resource Belle Aire Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with William Highfill, III Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 19 November 2007 Location: Private residence of William Highfill Total Duration: 1:07:05 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 November 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource William "Hank" Highfill, III; Brian Clark; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HighfillWilliam https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2669/TapscottDian.2.mp3 9fd0426c58be013cad531677f238bbf0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2669/TapscottDian.1.pdf 68dcc23fce5868823d1922dcc0ca84dd PDF Text Text Interview Transcription Interviewee: Dian Tapscott Interviewer: Brian Clark October 3, 2007 General Location: Dian’s current home at 1019 Sherwood Ave., previously the home of her grandparents. Editor’s Note: Most of the repeated words, ums, you knows, and false starts have been omitted from this version of the transcription to allow for ease of reading. I ask the reader to treat this transcript as a ‘summary’ of sorts of the interview. For any specific questions or interests, refer back to the audio recording for a more accurate portrayal of the interview. Time stamps are given periodically in the transcript to refer back to the recording. BC The interview took place at a small table in the kitchen, towards the back of the house. Dian’s husband Tom wandered through a couple of times, as did their dog. Interview Intro: 0:00:00.0 BC: This is an interview with Dian Tapscott, at her home on Sherwood Ave., Roanoke, VA on October 3rd, 2007 for the Neighborhood Oral History Initiative with Roanoke Public Library, interviewed by Brian Clark. 0:00:17.8 Interview start 0:00:00.0 BC: Ok. Well, I know you had some stories that you wanted to tell, DianDT: Um hmm. BC: You mentioned the car wash and Main Street and stuff,DT: Yeah. BC: So I’d be curious to start with that and see what you think. DT: Ok, alright, I was just going to tell you that the reason I ended up in this neighborhood is my grandparents, they used to live in Old Southwest in the 1920s and they adopted a child and so they decided to move- This was the suburbs. The road [Main St.] ended right here at the intersection [at Sherwood Ave. or Brandon Ave.]. That’s where the paved roadBC: And that’s Main Street, that you’re talking about? DT: Yeah, yeah, it- Main Street ended right at the intersection [with what is now Brandon Ave.], and that was all just a dirt road from there on out, so this was the farthest out- This was like moving out to Roanoke County back in those days. And so my grandfather bought this whole block and then he sold off all the lots over the years to all these neighbors, but umBC: That’s fromDT: From this wholeBC: From Main StreetDT: This whole, this whole block. This whole, this whole, …all…Windsor, up there. This, just, just this little block right here. [referencing the block between Main St., Sherwood Ave., Windsor Ave., and Brighton Ave.] So that’s when they first moved, they built this house and then they moved here with my mother who was just a few months old. Or she wadn’t very old at all. And then they �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 [Roanoke City or County] eventually, a few years later, built Wasena [Elementary] School. I think that was- This house was built in nineteen twenty-four, I believe, or five. And then Wasena School was built in 1928 and my mom was supposed to go to Virginia Heights but then when they built that school, my mom got to go to Wasena, and instead of having a cafeteria, they all just, all- It was just neighborhood kids, they all came home for lunch, like they’d just let ‘em out and they’d come home. So that’s how we ended up in this neighborhood. And then my grandfather saved that lot right up behind this house [on Windsor] and they gave it to my mother for a wedding gift in the 1950s and she built the house that I grew up in. And now, they’re all dead and I’m back in my grandmother’s house. This is my grandmother’s house, so anyway, I’ve kind of, you know- We’ve had two families, you know, my grandparents and my mother both living in the neighborhood for a long time. I’m trying to think of things to tell you about itBC: Do you have any other family still living around in the area? DT: Just my sister who lives with us, yeah. BC: Ok, so you don’t have any attachment to that house back there? [referencing the one she grew up in which is visible out the back window from where we sit]. DT: No, I don’t have- No, no. It’s sold many times since then. 0:01:58.3 BC: What’s it like living in your grandparent’s house looking out your back door at your, the house you grew up in? DT: Well, because my parents got divorced when I was a little kid, this was as much my house as that. I was one of the original latchkey kids, I guess, but not true latchkey cause I just came home to my grandmother’s house everyday. So, I mean, you know, my mom was a single mother, so I was always back and forth. They’re both, they’re- I consider both my houses, but it is weird, looking at my own, old bedroom window sometimes, but it just- Because they’re all gone, it’s really nice to, to remem- to have the memories, you know, cause I mean I can just think of so many things I did in both houses with ‘em, soBC: When you were a kid, you were in this house with your grandparents a lot. What are some of those memories that youDT: Well, I was- I had the memory of when Kennedy was killed, you know, when he was shot. We were at Wasena School and they just closed school down and of course my mother worked, so we had to walk home and I remember just sitting in the living room and watching that all day long on television, black and white TV. We just had two channels, 7 and 10, and 13 could come in- That was Lynchburg. 13 was ABC, would come in if you used, you know, you had really good equipment like what, antennas and everything to put on top your television set. BC: And now we have cable. DT: Yeah, so that’s really a really strong memory of being in this house. And then my mother was in this house, had come home from church in the 1940s and was upstairs listening to the radio when Pearl Harbor was bombed, so she always talked about that, how she’d just come home from church and no one could believe and they turned on their radios, you know, cause that’s all they had, and they all just stayed by it all day long listening to that. SoBC: Is your family the only one that’s ever lived in this house, your grandparents, parentsDT: No one has ever, ever lived in here but our family, and actually, next door neighbors, Breslin’s, that’s almost the same thing, um- They’re four generations next door, now they’re moving so we’re really sad. YeahBC: Connie had said that they were moving across town. DT: Yeah, they’re doing- They’re not going to be far away but it is weird cause they’re, rightThere’s never been a time that I can remember there wasn’t a Breslin in that house, so that’s going to be kind of sad. 2 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 BC: Now, now James [Settle] gave me, made copies of all of the old literature that he has collected, or someone has collected from the Wasena Neighborhood Forum, over the years, and I coincidentally ran across the old newsletter where you had written a short piece about Wasena ElementaryDT: AwhhhBC: And so I was really glad that I ran into that before thisDT: Yeah, it was a great school. BC: But, it sounded like you really had a lot of good memories associated with that. What were some of those? 0:4:19.3 DT: Well, see like I remember when I, when I, you know, I have the memory of my son going there, that’s what I wrote the article about, but when I was a little kid and we went there, what was the funniest thing is the… The first memory I have of it is, I lived right there [pointing to the house on Windsor that she grew up in] and, when I went away to school I’d just been with my mother up until that point because my parents weren’t divorced yet then and she stayed home with me, so when they let me out for recess, I came on home. I just left. [laughing] I was real shy back then and I just thought that- I remember that cause I was embarrassing when she had to take me back up there and tell the principal that I had left the, the playground, and I remember that, and I also remember that we had a real dangerous jungle gym when I was there. They don’t have those anymore, those things you climb on, and this boy fell off the very top and I was underneath and he flattened me and knocked the air out of my lungs but the teachers always said I saved his life and I always remember that. [chuckle in her voice] But it was just a good school. We had to line up in the mornings outside, it didn’t matter if it was six o’- You know, like six degrees, we had to stay outside. They didn’t let you in the school before they rang this hand bell. They, they’d ring it and then you could all go in single file line. And all the teachers had um, teased hair, you know, bouffant hairdos, with gla- They always wore glasses and uh- I just remember that- They weren’t, they weren’t like Mr. Sayers (laughing) [referencing a mutual friend, Andy Sayers, who teaches at Breckinridge Middle School in Roanoke City] BC: He’s a little different. (laughing) DT: Yeah, that, and then we had such good cafeteria meals. I always remember that, those really fresh made buns with, smothered in butter, and really good like, country style steak and mashed potatoes with gravy, I mean the school lunches were fabulous back then. So I remember that. You’d buy a lunch ticket if you were going to get your lunch for the whole week and they’d use a little hole puncher and punch out that you, you know, had gotten your meal. But then when my son went there, well that’s, that’s pretty recent, but it’s just still a really good school I think. BC: That’s what it sounded like in the article. DT: Yeah. Yeah, we really loved it. BC: That’s great. It is a beautiful school, inside and out. DT: Yeah it is. They did a good job remodeling it, so- But that’s, that’s my memory of Wasena [School], just good teachers- We always, you know, we were proud to go to school there. 0:06:16.1 BC: What were the summers like, growin’ up? DT: Um, the summers when I was growin’ up here were just about the best you can imagine. Believe it or not, this neighborhood was- I mean it still is hopefully safe, but it was very safe then. See, we never locked our house, the whole time- I lived there eighteen years and I went away to college. We never had a key to that house. We’d go away on vacation for two weeks, leave it open. (chuckling) Right? It was- And it was a lot of back door neighbor, friends, then. People, like, this, you know- Connie’s husband’s grandmother would come over here to my grandmother’s back door and go, ‘You hoo?’ And they, that’s the way they always greet each other. And then in our backyard, there was a chicken house. This apartment complex wasn’t here, so that was my grandmother’s 3 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 orchard, her gardens- She had everything, everything. She didn’t hardly go to the grocery store, I mean, she canned everything down in our basementBC: So they were very much, kind of growing their own, storing itDT: It was still kind of suburban here, even though by the time I was growing up in the fifties, I mean, most families did have a car and everything in the neighborhood. A lot of people still used the bus. The bus- Even a lot of executives in the neighborhood would even catch the bus to go work at N&W, Norfolk and Western- But usually the mothers kept the car because they needed it during the day and the fathers took the bus to work still back then. And that’s why these streets are so crowded with cars right now because back then, of course, they- Everybody just had- No one dreamed we’d own all these cars. But the summers were great cause there was kids, you know, it was the fifties and sixties and it was the population explosion. All the baby boomers were born, I mean, every house was loaded with kids. And we had summer camp at Lakewood Park [off Brandon Ave. at Brambleton intersection], we0:07:52.7 BC: Was that right down here? DT: Um hmm. BC: Ok. Right across the street? [across Brandon Ave.] DT: Yeah, we- We had all sorts- We’d do lanterns and basket weaving in the creek, I mean, you know, you never, were ever alone, I mean, sometimes you wanted to be alone, but there were just so many kids that would come by and sit outside, drink Kool-Aid on the porches, I mean you know, mostI was the only kid in this neighborhood that I know of, ‘cept maybe way down the street on Windsor, I mean most of the mothers were home back then. And most everyone was still married. I mean, it was, you know, not- Hardly any- I always felt weird because my parents were divorced cause nobody else’s were. I remember that. But yeah, the summers were great (chuckling). I mean, we owned the neighborhood. And there was a few crabby neighbors and we’d have, we’d camp out at night in our tents and stuff and we’d do stuff to their houses at night. (laughter in her voice) We were bad. BC: Like what? Like pranks and stuff? 0:08:40.1 DT: Well, there was this guy right up here, that we called him Jip out James (??). He was a big- He was a millionaire, but he was really, he was eccentric and everything and he, he was just- He lived like a pauper, but he would always put signs up, or glass in his yard, and he’d put glass- ‘No kids in the yard.’ And of course that just made us want to go in the yard, so sometimes we’d take his tomatoes (laughing) out of his garden. We’d- We rolled his car once, but don’t put that in there- (both laughing) We used to do stuff, I mean you know, we were good kids, but we were pranksters too. I mean, we- I think most all the kids around here were good. We didn’t have any crime. We didn’t have like the kids now are- You hear about all these incidents at the Neighborhood Forum of kids in the summer, there’s more crime in the neighborhood. It wasn’t like that back then. BC: When I was reading over some of these older articles from the paper, and I’m talking back when the neighborhood was built, early 1900s when they sold the Wasena Farm, or not the Wasena Farm, but that’s what it ended up being. They were talking about the bridges down there where the boys would walk across the steel beams when they would actually- They didn’t have a bridge platform, so everybody was just roaming all over the place. Were you- Did you experience any, any of that when you were growing up? DT: No, cause uh- By the time I was growing up, all the bridges were done and everything. The only thing that really is even that different- Like when I was first born, of course, Towers wasn’t there. It came in the early sixties and I remember that was such a big deal, like I mean, the mothers were all excited and my mom still was home with us and they weren’t divorced yet, my parents. And she would take my sister and I over there a lot. Like I would- She’d put me in my stroller, I was like three 4 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 or four and my sister would walk, my older sister, and we’d go over there and they had a Woolworth’s and a Peeple’s Drugstore, the old fashioned soda fountains over there, where you know, it was reallyAnd they had the Roanoker Restaurant, that’s where it moved to. I think it started downtown, then it moved to Towers, then it moved to- SoBC: And now it’s up on Colonial. DT: Um hmm. BC: Ok. DT: So the Roanoker and all that was a big thing when Towers went in, cause that was the first big, you know, suburban mall I think… BC: Do you remember what was at the Towers location before Towers Mall went in? DT: No, cause I was too little to remember. Unh unh. BC: One of the things in that article was that Towers was the first automobile mall in the valleyDT: Yeah, yeah. I mean it really was. BC: Did you kind of notice that? 0:10:46.4 DT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I re- It was a big deal when it went in. Everyone was really glad it went in our neighborhood and stuff. So- But then the other thing I was going to tell you about is, right at the corner, like when you walk down Windsor Ave. where Mrs. Padgett’s Grooming School and all that stuff is, that used to be the little, you know, where you, you see where you can pull in underneath? That was a gas station. It was called Mr. Dyerly’s (??) Gas Station, and so you could pull in and be protected while you were pumping your gas, and then inside it was a kid’s paradise cause he had this old glass candy counter with all the jar, penny candies you can imagine. And then he had the old fashioned drink boxes with the glass bottles of Dr. Pepper and Coke, I mean it, it was like a dime for a drink back then, I think. And then the penny candy, and we just went ballistic with- You get these little brown paper bags and fill ‘em up and he’d tell you how- I mean that was always where the kids were. And then where the car wash is, the reason the kids were always around his- That was an old foot- Like a- It was, looked like a football field and every night the boys would be out there playing football and the girls would be sittin’ on the sidelines just talking and everything and then you could always go over to Mr. Dyerly’s (??) for a drink, and stuff. So that was really neat. BC: That’s quite a bit different now. DT: Oh yeah. And I mean- And see, I wish I knew more about the little Main Street Village that’s right down near the Wasena Bridge, cause that I remember had a beauty parlor and it had like a corner um, like bar, actually, like a little pub. And it had some businesses back then, but I- The only two I can remember for sure are the beauty shop and the little, like, you know- Like you’d see, um, what’s the- Community Inn, sort of like a Community Inn [current business in Grandin Village] was down there. 0:12:17.7 BC: When were you born, Dian? DT: Fifty-seven. BC: Fifty-seven? DT: Yeah, so I saw- I saw a lot over the years, but it’s- I’m just trying to think of anything that reallyBC: And, you were born here, inDT: I was born in Roanoke Memorial HospitalBC: Yep. DT: and then I moved- I moved- They already had the house built, soBC: Now in that article, it mentioned that you lived around the StatesDT: Yeah, I lived all over, yeah. I was a gypsy (smiling). 5 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 BC: A gypsy? (laughin) What uh, what made you come back here? DT: Well, it uh, I had to come back because my mom passed away when I was forty, ten years ago, and see my sister’s mentally challenged. You’ve probably seen her before. She had- She has some physical problems too, but she was supposed- My mom- We knew my mother was dying. She had cancer, and my sister was always supposed to move to Florida and Tom and I had this little mother-inlaw house in our back yard that we were going to fix into an apartment for her. So after my mother died, she came down there and she hated Florida. She cried, cause see she’s always lived right in this neighborhood. And we knew, she just was adamant she would not live down there. So she came back up here and she really couldn’t take care of this house, I mean it was just, it was a nightmare. And so we knew we had to do something and my son was almost five, and we were going to have to send him to private school in Florida anyway. The schools are real bad in Florida because it’s mostly older people, you know, it’s retired people in Florida, so they don’t vote a lot for education. So we knew we had to send him to private school, and we thought, I thought, ‘Well the schools are always so good in Roanoke when I was growing up there, and she wanted, she [sister] didn’t want to move to Florida so we just decided to come up here and try it. And we, you know- He worked for his dad’s business, we always knew we could back if it didn’t work out. So we’ve loved it, we’ve loved being- But that’s- I really ended up back here because of my sister. 0:13:54.1 BC: Ok DT: Yeah. BC: What, what did it feel like coming back? DT: Well, I was ha- I had mixed feelings about it, because he rea- He really wanted to move here, my husband believe it or not. Everybody thinks it’s the other way around, but I felt like I was going backwards and stuff. Cause I- I really loved growing up here, but when I left after I got out of Roanoke College, I was really ready to leave cause I- This was all I had ever known, and I really wanted to travel. And I just, I thought it was like going backwards, to me, but once I got back home I just, you know, I’ve just been- I’ve, I’ve loved it here. There’s, you know- Once I actually made the move, and said, ‘We’re gonna do it.’ But it was a little weird at first. Cause, um, it’s not- One, one thing about Roanoke is it doesn’t have very god jobs, you know how it is. And it- We were living in a very affluent area in south Florida, so that it was really hard to get used to the poverty. And you know, I work with poverty kids all day long, I mean it’s just sad to see. You know, cause there’s, there’s just a lot more affluent places in the world and Roanoke, you know, drags a little behind on the income level and standard of living and all that sort of thing. Southwest Virginia overall. But then there’s the beauty, and the nice people. I mean, I- It always is outweighed by all the positives, but- That’s something you really notice if you’re not here all the time, and you’ve just gone away, when you come back, you really notice it. BC: I was going to ask you what specifics were that you would of, that you noticed, but that? DT: Yeah, that’s it. Even when I just went away this summer to New England for awhile and came back I noticed it again. You know, you don’t notice it when you’re here, but you do when you travel some, to other places. You just don’t see it as much, of the poverty. BC: What’s made you stay? DT: Here? BC: Um hmm. DT: Well, you know, I just really um, you know, because of my sister I mean, she’s- I, I’m- I’m gonna stay because of my sister, but I just like it, I love it anyway. It’s beautiful, um, the, the neighborhood would make me stay. This neighborhood, I can move somewhere else. I like it because it’s close to everything. And I like my neighbors a whole lot. You’re, you’re one of ‘em. And um, I like it that I’m near Fresh Market, Ukrops, Kroger- I mean, I’m really close to everything. I mean, 6 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 people laugh at me in Florida because they can’t believe how little mileage I put on a car, but you know, everything I need is like- I could even be walking more places than I walk, I mean, you know. The movies are right out at the Grandin Theater. I’ve got the- I mean, there’s so many good things about this neighborhood, you know. You can walk through the cemetery and that’s, even though it’s a cemetery, its still tranquil and pretty. You can walk through it and be at all those different places, the health foods store, Norberto’s which I love, all the restaurants out there. I mean, it’s just, it’s an ideal neighborhood for, for anybody that just doesn’t want to be going to the gas tanks, you know going to the gas stations all the time. 0:16:26.7 BC: Now, was um, I know it’s not in Wasena, but what was Grandin Village like when you were growing up? DT: It’s exactly the same, I mean, it’s just got more stuff now, I mean more neat, like cooler stuff, but back then, where Surf n’ Turf is, that was Garland’s Drugstore, and Mr. Garland was a long time, kind of famous person here. Maybe he was on City Council, I don’t know what his, why he- You, you heard his name a lot. I don’t know if he was politically active or if he was a city councilman, but he ran Peeple’s, I mean, Garland’s Drugstore and that was another soda fountain out there you could go to. The movies were always there, um, I’m trying to think what else was out there. They’re not as- It wasn’t as cool as it is now, but it was just nice. It was the 1950s version of what it is now. BC: Was Wasena park here at that time? DT: Oh yeah, it’s a really old park, and back then it was a really nice park, but already then it was having a few little problems, like it still does sometimes, you know, they’re always having, saying that there’s a lot of cruising going on down there, and back then, there were some unsavory people that would hang out at Wasena Park and the kid- The mother’s would always- Sometimes like when Wasena School was gonna do a field trip, they would always urge them to use Lakewood Park instead of Wasena Park, but I think actually Wasena Park is better now than it was back then. Cause it just, I don’t know if it- Being a little kid you don’t, they didn’t tell you exactly what it was, but it might have just been homeless people. I don’ know, but our parents sometimes would- Didn’t want us to go to Wasena Park, I remember that. They’d say, ‘Why don’t you just go down to Lakewood and play basketball, or go to the tennis courts at Fishburne Park, don’t go-’ They didn’t want us down there that much, and the skate park wasn’t there, and there’s just- It wasn’t patrolled as well by the police I don’t think, and it was so- You know how it’s kinda off to itself and it has the river as one of- Its, its border is the river and that I think there were homeless, more homeless people living by the river back then. I think that’s what it was, they just were scared to, for us, cause we, there wasn’t the police going- Now I think they go in there all the time, the police, they’re really on that park. BC: There’s a lot more people living around there too, it seems like. DT: Yeah, that’s probably what it is. BC: Yeah. DT: Yeah. 0:18:32.4 BC: What um- If- If you can think back to when you were, say 10 or so, living around hereDT: Um hmm. In 1967. BC: Was there a specific walk that you really enjoyed, or a specific place or spot that you really liked to go to? DT: Well, we, you know, my best friend, and she’s still my, one of my closest friends, I mean, she lived right across the street from me. We usually did a lot of stuff at each other’s houses, but when we- We had a bike trail that we used to do, but it went up into Raleigh Court. Again, sometimes our parents back then didn’t want us going that way as much as that way. BC: Down towards the park [Wasena Park], but you could go to Raleigh Court. Ok 7 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 DT: Yeah, again, they wanted us to go, you know, and that’s, that’s kind of sad because that is truly Wasena down that way. But um, they always tried to steer us up this way and we had a little bike path that we did up to Grandin Road and back. And then we used to walk- See, we, we used to walk all the time through the cemetery to go to Garland’s, cause we’d get Cokes and French fries there. See you could do anything back then. Nobody worried that much, like about- You know, now you have to worry about these kids and these streets are real busy. It was just a real pedestrian neighborhood back then because you didn’t have all the cars. And then we would walk to Towers constantly as kids, and then, there was a big ol’ tree, it’s gone out of Wasena School now, but it was just this huge old tree and they had built a wooden platform around the bottom of it for people to sit on, and we always used to like to go and congregate there sometimes in the evenings, the kids. There were more kids out then. I mean this was a, just kids everywhere. It was- It’s really different now, in that regard. So0:20:05.2 BC: I see a bunch of ‘em around, but not, apparently, like it used to be. DT: Yeah, they’re not- Yeah, yeah. And, you know, these kids are all so electronic, you know. They don’t get outside like they used to. And see, remember, we didn’t have air conditioning back then, so in the summer, you didn’t want to be in the house. You wanted to be outside because it was actually probably cooler outside than it was in your house. SoBC: That’s true. (chuckles) DT: Yeah, I mean it was hot, and then- And like I say, the mothers were all home. They didn’t want all the noise in the house- All the mothers would say, “Y’all get outside. You’re not allowed to play inside. Get outside.’ So we were much more athletic and outdoorsy than the kids are now. This is what- You know, you see the obesity in the schools. They’re just- We were outside. You probably were like that too, your, your generation was out more. BC: Yeah, definitely. My, my people that I hung out with were definitely outside more. DT: Yeah, well you know they’re not anymore. (laughing ruefully) BC: And you would know, because you are working in the school system. DT: Yeah. Oh yeah. They don’t- They were all- And my son’s the same way. He loves his computer, all his games. So- But he’s running track, cross country tonight, so he’s outside running. BC: Do you, do you feel that that’s a loss—the kids kinda moving inside as opposed to being outside like they were when you were growing up? 0:21:09.4 DT: Well you know it’s hard to say because um, they say all these, you know, all this next generation, you know, like- You know how technology’s going to take off in the next hundred years, I mean, they’re gonna be pioneers and all that and I won’t know how to do any of it, but yeah, I think they’re losing a lot by not being with Nature. Cause you know, those, those little people they’re playing with on computer can never take the place of real relationships and stuff, so yeah, I think it’s kinda sad. BC: Have you, have you seen that impact the neighborhood in any way? Just in general? DT: Because there’s not really that many kids in our neighborhood anymore, you know, no. Our neighborhood now, it’s just- It’s a lot of young, newly married people like yourself, and like Brooke, and Kim and Jeff. You know, there’s not, there’s not a lot of kids in this neighborhood anymore when you really think about it, so, but most of the kids today are, if they’re, even when they are not on the computer, they’re very scheduled anyway, so I don’t know that I’ve really seen how, what effect, or maybe put it in the- You just don’t see kids out playing, like- You can go by that school a million times and never see people playing basketball there, whereas when we were kids, there- That school at night was loaded with activities, you know. We used to go off, and, or at least- It was modeled differently years ago. We would hit our tennis balls against the school cause it just had this one wall of brick and we could just practice our tennis like crazy up there, and you just always saw kids, you 8 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 know, everywhere and I just think it’s not so much that they’re all on computers, its just there really is not that many kids right around here. Or like there used to be. I could be wrong about that. Maybe they’re all hidden. BC: (Chuckles) I wanted to ask you too- I made an interesting discovery of sorts, I figured out where the, is it Wasena Hills? The house where Welton and Floyd come in, the big old house up there? DT: Yeah, that’s- That’s really neat. 0:22:56.5 BC: What was that like when you were growing up? Was there any difference? DT: That was- No. You know what that was, when I was growing up, and it still might be, is um, oh it’s a Catholic organization, the Knights of Col- the Knights of Columbus. It was where the Knights of Columbus met, but it was very scary. Like when we- I had a friend who lived a few doors down, you know, it’s kind of- If you, have you ever really been up there and looked at itBC: Just walking by. DT: It’s um- When we were little kids, you know, it was like a big old haunted place cause there was never- You know they were only there at certain times and then it was just this big vacated area, so we always thought, were like- Told ghost stories about it and things like that. But yeah, it is pretty wild to find that up there. BC: I was surprised. DT: Um hmmm. Yeah. BC: I was very surprised. 0:23:34.8 DT: Yeah, and one other memory I was going to tell you about this neighborhood is see, Tech used to play all their home games at Victory Stadium, and that was always neat when we were little cause we could, you could hear over the loud speakers, you could hear in this neighborhood the games and you’d see all the people come in their cars with the Tech flags and the ladies always wore corsages, you know, everyone dressed up for the football games, so you’d see all these dressed up people coming to town. Yeah, they, they really went all out to get ready for those games. BC: I just can’t imagine Tech coming from Blacksburg to here for a game. DT: They did. They didn’t have their stadium then. And the biggest game was always every year when VMI and Tech played. They used to play back then and that was a big rivalry. Yeah, that’s a strong memory, is the Tech games being over there at Victory Stadium. BC: Did you ever attend one? DT: No. No, I don’t think I ever did. You know, I attended all the football games in high school. The- It was great having Victory Stadium. I mean I understand why they needed to get rid of it, I guess, but it was a fun stadium. Like I was a cheerleader in high school and it was a great stadium to cheer at and stuff, soBC: Well, is there anything else that, uh, I haven’t asked you about that youDT: I think that’s good, Brian. I, I wish I could tell you more. I mean it’s justBC: I- This has been amazing, I mean, you haveDT: Well. Well, and I don’t reallyBC: a huge grasp of the history of the neighborhood here. 0:24:48.8 DT: Well not really, not really, but I wish I could remember more. My best memory, though, of being a kid is that- This back porch [on the house she is living in currently, her grandparents’ house], see, we’ve got it enclosed now. But that was a screened back porch and my grandmother, she was a Victorian. She was born in the 1800’s and everything. She had an old featherbed out there and it was a real quiet neighborhood back then cause like I told you, it was just, you didn’t hear all this noise at 9 �Dian Tapscott Neighborhood Oral History Interview 10/3/07 night like you do now. And we- Every night in the summer she and I slept out on that featherbed. That is my best memory of being a kid. BC: No kidding. DT: And when I moved back here it as still a screen porch, and I said, ‘Tom, we’ve gotta get a bed and put out there. It’s so much fun.’ We didn’t even make it through the first night. Cause we gotWe put the bed out there- There was so much noise, cause see that apartment complex wasn’t over there. That was an orchard. So the first thing that happened is this lady that rented this apartment was up all night having a party or something, and in- People in and out the driveway, and I was like, ‘Well, we’re not getting much sleep. We might as well go upstairs.’ And then we just, we realized it could never be like that again. It’s just too many cars and- Cause every time a siren, you know, every time a ambulance comes to this intersection they have to sound their siren so- (laughing) BC: It gets noisy. DT: They didn’t used to do that back in the old days, so- I don’t even think they did the sirens at night back then, so- I don’t remember them. BC: Well, I wanted to thank you a lotDT: Oh, you’re welcome, Brian. BC: Cause this has been, this has been wonderful. DT: I wish I could have told you more, I really do, I just- I can’t- You know, if I think of anything else, I will let you know. BC: Well, I do appreciate it and I thank you very much. DT: You’re welcome, Brian. Thanks for taping[End of interview] 10 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dian Tapscott Subject The topic of the resource Wasena-Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dian Tapscott Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 3 October 2007 Location: Private residence of Dian Topscott Total Duration: 26:17 Transcription prepared by: Brian Clark Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3 October 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dian Tapscott; Brian Clark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TapscottDian https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2668/AkersClaudia.2.mp3 c820144ef955fb7c7de9815f49c83296 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2668/AkersClaudia.1.pdf 8e7012d270e2ffd00afdec32c063b4b1 PDF Text Text Interview Transcription Interviewee: Claudia Akers Interviewer: Brian Clark September 17, 2007 General Location: Our Lady of the Valley, 650 N. Jefferson St., Roanoke, VA 24016 Editor’s Note: Most of the repeated words, ums, you knows, and false starts have been omitted from this version of the transcription to allow for ease of reading. I ask the reader to treat this transcript as a ‘summary’ of sorts of the interview. For any specific questions or interests, refer back to the audio recording for a more accurate portrayal of the interview. Time stamps are given periodically in the transcript to refer back to the recording. BC The interview was conducted in Claudia Akers’ personal room in the assisted living facility. There were a couple of interruptions. Interview Start [Claudia did not hear many of my questions the first time. If the transcript shows her continuing on after a question, she did not hear it.] 0:00:00.0 CA: That sound right, right? (chuckles) BC: So you were born, April 25th, 1912? CA: Yeah, nineteen- Uh huh. BC: That’s a long time ago. CA: Yeah. Hanging in there aren’t I? BC: Yeah, you are. CA: And I’ve had two husbands to pass away on me, and, well I reckon, let’s see- I got one, two sons I reckon, they- One of ‘ems a Johnson and one of ‘ems Akers, Bill Akers. I don’t know, you might’ve heard of him. BC: I haven’t. CA: He works at- Where’s he work at? GE. He works at GE. He comes by here every day, same time. He, he don’t go home without seeing me. BC: That’s great. CA: Yeah it is. He’s a- Well, he’s been my base, you know, to talk and tell him anything I want to and he comes all the time, everyday. He don’t miss a day. If he does, he calls me. So that’s the way that goes. BC: So Bill is your son? CA: Huh? BC: Bill is your son? CA: Well, my oldest son is- He’s retired. He’s at home. Yeah, he comes once and a while. He’s a Johnson. Robert Johnson, I reckon everybody- I call him Bobby. BC: NowCA: He lives on- Now let’s see, I don’t know the, what road he lives on now. I don’t write or don’t go there—haven’t for a long time. It’s not in my memory. Or Bill either, for that matter. (laughing) BC: That’s ok. (chuckling) CA: They come, but I don’t know- I’ve just lost out on their addresses. BC: Now you mentioned your address. �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: huh? BC: You mentioned your address. CA: He did? BC: Was it 4308 Longwood Ave? CA: Yeah. Yeah, that’s the one where I lived before I came here, or wherever I was- They put me somewhere, it wadn’t nice like this. It wadn’t- I was treated awful. And whatever they gave me to eat, I never could eat it and I lost- I was always real fleshy. And I just went away to nothin’. And when I, I didn’t even know my own self because I lost the weight so, and I didn’t look like myself (chuckling), and I had red hair then, and, oh me. I don’t know. It’s just all been a pipe dream. You might say. It come and went. But, I try to think of a little of it, and I try to forget a whole lot of it. So that’s the way that goes. 0:02:37.9 BC: What are some things that you like to remember? CA: Huh? BC: What are some things that you like to remember? CA: Oh, gee. Wish I could think of some. I’ve got plenty of memories. I should haveBC: [interrupting-Claudia did not hear] Just putting them all together? CA: I’ve had two husbands. Yeah, both of them were nice fellas, nice men. And, they died younger than I am. Uh, now, I’m ninety- what, four? What’d I say? (laughing) I forget how old I- I mean what year I was born. I was born nine- Must have been 1912, wadn’t it? BC: That’s what you told me [Claudia started telling stories before I could get the recorder started]. CA: Yeah, well that’s what’s right, I guess. That’sBC: If you want to change it later, we can. CA: Huh? BC: If you want to change it later, we can. CA: Oh well. I think I’m right, but? BC: How long did you live at Longwood Ave.? CA: Oh gee. Long time. I don’t know that- Long time I lived there. Well, I lived there till they took me to put me in some nursing home. My sister died and left me alone and I fell and injured myself and I- They had to put me somewhere and they put me down in some nursing home but I- I couldn’t- To save your life I couldn’t tell you where it was at. It was down the valley here somewhere. And they must’ve just- I just fell away till I wadn’t a nothing but skin and bones. I probably wouldn’t eat their food, you know, sometimes people just stick any old food in front of you and think you’ll eat it. And I didn’t. I was- To fall away like I did, I was just so skinny and, and I didn’t know my own self hardly. Course I never had nothing to look in. (laughing) Didn’t know my own self. But anyways, Bill’s always been- But I think, you know, he had more on him than he could take, I know he did. He couldn’t just- But he did the best he could, bless his heart. He’s my, I reckon he’s my- I have two sons and one daughter. She- I don’t know, did I tell you one daughter? Or, cause IBC: No, you didn’t. 0:04:59.6 CA: (chuckles) And she works at Hecht’s. And she’s in the beautician stuff, she buys and sells make-up, you know, all that stuff. She works there. And uh, she comes when she can, but keepin’ house and cookin’ and goin’ to work, I know what that is, soBC: It’s busy. CA: (chuckles) Everybody does, don’t they? I know I did. Had a lot of that. But, anyways, I’m here and I like it. Everybody’s- Course, I don’t go out there and sit where the rest of ‘em- It’s too cold, I cain’t- Less I can put on my overcoat. (chuckles) I can’t stay where it’s cold. I- Bill’ll come in here, he’ll cut it back, he’ll say, ‘Oh Mommy, it’s hot in here.’ I say, ‘Well, cut it back. I’ll put on 2 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 my overcoat.’ I kid him a lot. He say, ‘Awh, it ain’t that cold.’ But, he comes everyday. He don’t miss a day, got to see, going to see if Mama’s doing alright. (chuckles) So that’s good of him. I don’t know what I’d- Course he put me down here. I reckon he feels like he oughta look after me. BC: I’d hope so. (both chuckle) 0:06:10.2 CA: Yeah. He does. He looks after me. He comes right straight on from work and oh, stays tillSometimes his wife calls him, sometimes she don’t. I say, ‘Hon, don’t, don’t neglect your home life.’ ‘Oh Momma, I ain’t neglecting nobody. If I do anything, I neglect you.’ And I say, ‘No, you don’t. No, you don’t.’ We have little arguments. I say, ‘You go home cause Momma don’t no want a, you know, messin’ up your married life.’ I said, ‘Awh-’ She’s real sweet. She wouldn’t- She don’t care, I know, but, I, I just know she’s- She had a daughter, got married last, about two months ago now. Her picture’s over there, she- She’s, she’s real sweet girl. BC: [At same time] Does that make you a grandma? CA: [At same time] She comes around and sees me every once in a while. BC: Does that make you a grandma? CA: Yeah, no- I’m not. Yeah I reckon I am grandmom, but (chuckles)- Yeah that makes me a grandma don’t it? Yeah. I guess I’m grandpa [used wrong word], grandma several places. BC: Um hmm. 0:07:17.7 CA: And I’ve got one, uh, I reckon, uh, one grandson named his baby after me. Claudia. BC: Oh wow. CA: Yeah. He come and said, ‘Nan. I want to ask you something.’ And I said Ok, hon, well- He said, ‘Would you mind if we named our baby Claudia?’ I said, ‘Oh Lord, I’d be tickled to death!’ (chuckling) So he gave me a picture of her. She’s over there on the dresser. She’s real- She’s just growin’ like a little weed. BC: Is this the, the young one over here? [went over to dresser to look at pictures in room] CA: Uh huh, yeah. She’s about, she’s probably about four months old maybe. More than that old. I can’t keep up with ‘em, but, she’s comin’ on. Course I don’t see her like I’d like to, but- (laughs) BC: Try and spoil her? [Claudia didn’t hear my question] CA: That’s her name. I said, ‘Lord no. Name her after me. That’s fine.’ So I ask Claudia everyday how she feels. (laughing) Bill said, ‘Mama, somebody’s gonna think you’re crazy.’ I said, ‘Oh no. I talk to her, ask her how she feels.’ And he just laughs. Tells me I’m- I said, ‘Awhh, just somebody to talk to.’ (laughing) Even if she don’t know she got a grandmom, yet. Oh me. Well, that’s just about my life here, it’s pretty nice. 0:08:39.4 BC: Now, have you lived in Roanoke all your life. CA: No. My first hus- I lived in Huntington, West Virginia for a long time. BC: Oh really. CA: My first husband passed away, and I come back home. BC: And were you born in West Virginia? CA: No, I was born here in Roanoke. BC: Here in Roanoke. Ok. CA: Um hmm. Yeah. Born here in Roanoke, Virginia. And I married and went to Huntington, West Virginia. I lived there till my husband died and then I married- Let’s see. I can’t keep up with my husbands. I said- Well, I had two I guess. My first husband was a Johnson, I think. You know, stuff like that disappears- I’m glad it does kinda- But it comes and goes, you know, your mind does on things. And uh, I think I went by Claudia Johnson for a long time. Then I married a- Who did I marry then? Bobby. Oh me. What I’d tell you any before that? (laughing) BC: You, you told me Bobby Johnson. 3 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: Bobby Johnson. That’s his name. BC: [at same time as CA] And then there was a Wilson, wasn’t there? CA: Well that’s who- That was my first, that was my first husband was Bobby. Bobby wadn’tNo. That was my first child. Bobby was. And uh, Billy’s by my last husband. The one that comes all the time, stays with me pretty close, knows what I- Well he, in fact, he put me on here- I didn’t know a thing about it till I walked in here. (chuckles) So, he looks after me. He comes andEveryday. He don’t miss a day. If he don’t stay long, that’s ok. If he does, I’m glad he comes and checks on his mom. ‘Yeah, I’m gonna check on you mom.’ (chuckles) I said, ‘Yeah, I know you are. But don’t neglect your family for me now.’ ‘Oh, I’m not, I’m not neglectin’ nobody.’ (laughing) But, I’m sure- He sits down here, relaxes and almost goes to sleep sometimes. But, that’s the way it is, anyways. And this is a nice place. You have good food. The food’s really- You couldn’t find it no better. Course, I…I was always told I could, was a good cook. But, I’m glad I don’t cook. (laughing) 0:11:16.6 BC: What did you like to cook? CA: Oh, everything, I just cooked everything. Green beans, potato salad- I uh, worked in Hollins College for a long time and then I had- That’s where I went from, when I went to work, I worked at Hollins College a long time till I had to retire. BC: What did you do at Hollins? CA: Cook- Uh- Fixed, made salads. Took after the girls, looked after the girls and made, to see if they made ‘em right. I was kinda the overseer of the dining room, you know, just uh, what went on, what- How many tables to set up, and- Sometimes you set up all of ‘em, sometimes you just some of ‘em, but they have to be told and then I had- I always helped ‘em, jumped in and went along with ‘em, everything. But it was fun, I hated that I had to- Mr. Woodson, did you know him? BC: Unh unh. No. CA: Well, he had a big restaurant downtown, then he took over- When I, well I didn’t know this till after I’d worked at Hollins for awhile. He, he took over the Hollins, uh, like territory- On eating andLike kinda like- It’s kinda what’s reminded all this downstairs, you know, when, I had to see everything was ok and ready to eat and what was havin’ and what to cook and all that mess and(chuckles) I worked there till they retired me, so- I went then to- I went to the silk mill, worked till they finally retired me there, from there. And- I had aBC: Now what was the last one? [didn’t catch ‘silk mill’ during the interview and CA didn’t hear my question] 0:13:00.7 CA: I had a son to bring up, you know, and I worked- I liked to work. Well, I liked to work in food and- Course I didn’t have much to do with the cookin’ or anything of it, but I had to see that everything went right in the dining room, and- It kinda puts me in mind of all this [kitchen at Our Lady of the Valley], puts me in mind of me overlooking, you know, and everything. But it’s- Bill said, ‘Mom, it’s kinda what you did when you was working.’ I said, ‘Yeah, it is.’ Kinda like(laughs) BC: Very similar. Yeah. CA: (laughs) Oh me. ButBC: Were you able to, or did you take any classes or anything at Hollins when you worked there? [CA didn’t quite understand my question, based on her following answer] CA: I don’t know. I haven’t decided(??)- Mr. Woodson, I think’s passed away. He was the one that run it. He was a mighty nice man to work under. No, they probably wouldn’t take me now. Nothin- (laughs) They think I’m too old now, and I don’t, I don’t think I’ll try to work anymore. But, I did enjoy it. I enjoy doing the same thing that’s goin’ on here now, but I, you know, I don’t say nothin’. I think everything’s all right. BC: Good. 4 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: But it puts me in mind of Hollins. BC: Good memories. CA: Although there wadn’t quite as many as there are here now. But, there was a right good crowd, Hollins. Went to Hollins College, yeah, there was. Big bunch of ‘em. My daddy one time know how many tables we set. We puts ‘em in mind and- We just had to set the tables up just, just like, you know, they ate everyday, three times a day. Breakfast, dinner and I reckon supper. Whatever. I call it supper. (laughs) And- Awh, it was fun. I hate I had to go, but when you get a certain age you have to go, soBC: Understand. 0:14:55.1 CA: I went on home, stayed with my mom, wherever I’d been staying of course. I think at the time, I was married, maybe. I had a- My sister is passed away last month and uh- I- Oh- She’s- I’m the baby of the family and she passed away last, last month and we come down off on- She was goin’ with a fella and I had a Ford, one of these one-seated Ford cars, you know. We went up on a mountain to see some people and as we come back, the lights blinded the guy that was goin’ with my sister then, blinded him and we had a wreck and I went over in Back Creek. BC: Oh no. CA: And when I woke up, I was, all I seen was…a bottom of a car, you know, layin’ on top, well it wadn’t- But I had, I had a right- I think it hurt my side here. It hurt this side, that’s why I probably- I have problems with it now. I can’t- I have a lot of pain with it and I been, these, runnin’ these girls here crazy about pain. Well, and they gave it to me though. I said I don’t ask for it unless I need it. I don’t want to be no- (short laugh) I said, ‘But if I need- If I ask you for it, I wish you’d give it to me, cause I don’t ask for it unless I need it.’ And sometimes I’m in pain and I need it, but otherwise- But anyway, when I woke up, I was laying in Back Creek with that Ford- I- It was my car, a Model T Ford on top of it. I was looking up at that- It was- I- It knocked- It must’ve knocked me out for awhile, but when I come to, well, they could get to me, get that car off of me. (laughing) I was, I was working on- The whole inside of it, I could see it. I said, ‘Oh’ I’d like to not made that trip. I had- It was a long time getting’ over it. I don’t reckon I ever did, really. BC: I bet. How old were you then? Do you remember? CA: No. (laughing) 0:17:12.3 BC: It was a while ago for a Model T. CA: No, I was probably- I was probably in my early thirties, maybe, bout along in there. I wadn’t very old. I was just young when I married, the first time. My husband died, then I married again. I was a Wilson. I married a Johnson. Then I married Akers. I married, I had three men, they- All of ‘em- I had three good husbands and every one of ‘em the good Lord took. BC: It’s good that you had three good ones. CA: Yeah. That was something else, you know, thank for Him (??). I- Here I am, all of ‘em was good men. And uh, I don’t know, it just- But I really never reckoned, never- Kind of been on the swirl ever since. I’d go home, stay with mom, my mother till she passed away. And uh, my sister she passed away too, so- I was there in the process of selling, going to sell my house I reckon. Well, I guess I don’t [need the house anymore], unless I marry again, I don’t reckon- (laughs) I don’t know about that. But anyway, it’s a nice home. But, Bill said- Billy, that’s my son, he takes care of things, he said, ‘Mom, you can’t go back home to live now. You got- The doctor says, positively, you can’t live by yourself.’ And I said, ‘Well, I can marry again,’ I told him. Well, he could’ve said, I’m all done with you. Oh, I kid- I was just kiddin’ him. I said, ‘Well, I’ll get married again.’ ‘Get married again?!’ [Billy said.] …I carry on with him. BC: What uh, what neighborhood is your house in? CA: Huh? 5 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 BC: What neighborhood is your house in? CA: That I lived in? BC: Yeah, the LongwoodCA: You know where the City poor farm is? BC: No I don’t. CA: Well, it’s like goin through Roanoke, you go to Cave Spring- [Claudia is actually starting to describe the house she grew up in, if I’m not mistaken—not the Longwood Ave. house.] BC: Ok. 0:19:25.7 [Interruption by Gail, explaining that another resident was ready for an interview.] 0:19:33.3 CA: Uh, what you got somebody else you-? (chuckles) BC: We have a couple today, so- But no rush, we have time. CA: What- What was I saying? BC: Tell me where your house was. You go through RoanokeCA: You know where uh, well you know where the City poor farm, if you don’t know, it’s on that road, goin’, like goin’ to Cave Spring. You turn off and- I wanted to tell picture, uh Bill, to give me a picture of it here. A real good picture of it, the other day, showed it to me, but I didn’t ask him for it and I’m going to tell him I want a picture of it. Uh, it was a nice home. But, it’s just doctor’s orders, so they going- Mama can’t stay by herself. Yeah, might fall and break my neck next time. (chuckling) But, they look after me here. Well, I mean, he does, but they come in, check on me, sorta like she poke her head up, see if I’m Ok, you know. Sometimes, and sometimes they don’t. And as I say, I’d go out there and sit in that place [the front lobby common area] but they all, it’s just too cold for me. If I could sit on the porch, I’d go on the porch and sit, but that cold, I can’t stand it. Bill comes in here and fusses, sits down there, ‘Momma, you (laughing), you freezing me to death.’ I said, ‘Well, turn it on, fix it for how it suits you.’ I said, ‘I just can’t get, be cold.’ And I’m not cold. It’s plenty warm in here. BC: Feels good. CA: Now, now I guess it’s pretty warm. BC: It feels good. CA: Now, I put on this, I thought, ‘Well, if I go down there to that dining room it’s cold sometimes,’ and I put on something heavy. (chuckles) But I think it’s too heavy for me to sit in here. But, anywaysBC: Now, Sherri was telling me that you had an interesting story about how to get to school. CA: Do what? BC: Sherri was telling me that you had an interesting story about how you got to school. CA: How I went to school? (laughing) BC: She said something about riding trains? CA: Oh, yeah. (laughs) BC: What was that all about? 0:21.30.4 CA: Well, train just went like- You go down from our house, bout…like you’d go from here to yonder. And uh, they’d go right along our house, by our house, you know. They’d always flirt with my older sister. They’d blow that horn. When they’d- That passenger train, all them men, they’d blow that- But uh, when we’d be goin’ to school, that’s all I’d hear. I’d get on till the man in the caboose come out and get me. ‘Get off there, girl!’ Scare the fire out of me, and I’d jump off. ‘Don’t you know better than to settin’ on-’ I’d be settin’ on the step riding to school. Yeah, I rode it. And they’d fuss, and- I won’t- But she never did tell momma, but Lord now, I said, ‘Don’t tell her. You know what a fit she’d have!’ Cause I was the baby of the family, I reckon. But I liked to ride on the6 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 I’d sit down on the steps ridin’ on, you know. They went real slow. You’d just get on, get off. And, (laughs)- Cause there’s- It wadn’t no fast train. Now I wouldn’t try to jump them passenger trains. Oh boy, they went fast. But them freight train, them guys would come out there, ‘What are you doing girl?!’ Scare the shoot out of me. (laughing) I’d jump off- If I’d have heard ‘em, course I’d have jumped off, you know, but I didn’t. I- You couldn’t here everything. 0:22:50.3 BC: How far was it to school? Or, how long did it take to ride? CA: Well, it was a mile, a little more. It was a long ways. Yeah it was. We- But I never did that, after that. I never did try it no more. (laughs) I thought that was- Got me for that, I know, if I’d jump on it again, they’d probably get me. Well it was just like you’d walk along, you could sit down on it, it was goin’ so slow, you know. But, now, passenger trains that go up through there, man they’d blow their little horns and my older sister would get out there and raise a lamp you know. She flirted with them all the time. And uh, I guess I picked up some of her goin’s. And, she did, she got married and left home, but- They’d holler, they’d blow their horn, blow, blow, blow that horn, all them trains. She’d get the lamp, and it’d get to winter and it’d be dark, and she’d wave it. (laughing) Now that’s how she flirted with the railroad men. I used to- They’d come and work on railroads, you know, tires, and everything. Goin’ to school, we liked to, always liked to ride the, liked to walk the railroad cause it wadn’t a lot of dirt- Well, there wadn’t a lot of dirt. Wadn’t like walking through the, uh- You had to walk through a mountain to go to school, to Ogden School out there. 0:24:14.6 BC: Is that were you went? CA: [at the same time] I don’t know whether it’s still sittin’ there or not. It was the last time I was around that way, and uh, one of these girls that my son went with some, has built a house right out from our driveway there at home, and, up in the woods like that. They build their houses in woods. She built a house- I don’t know whether she knew that or not, but he, he did go with her, I think, a little bit. And uh, and he married some girl. I guess they do all right. BC: We hope, right? CA: Yeah, she, she uh, he- Course you know, like he is, you know, he gonna come, do as he pleases, with according to me. (laughing) But I told him not to- I said, ‘Don’t do nothin’ [to] neglect your family, honey,’ cause I don’t- I’m all right. If I’m not I’ll let you know. ‘Awh Mom you wouldn’t let me know nothin’!’ I said, ‘ Oh, yes I will too.’ Oh well, I don’t have to let him know. He’s gonna come, just- I- So I just leave him alone. He, uh, he’s gotta be satisfied, he’s been so good to me, look after me, and all of ‘em. I just go on with it. Well, he was trying to sell the house, he’s not having very good luck, I don’t think. They worked on it all summer, you know, redoing it on the inside. It’s got upstairs, two bedrooms upstairs and, uh, a closet where you hang your clothes. And it’s got, well, dining room, living room, kitchen on lower floor. It’s a nice home. I’d like to go back there myself. BC: It sounds like it. CA: But I can’t. I mentioned it, but I didn’t get no where. 0:26:07.3 BC: What did you like about living there? CA: Huh? BC: What did you like about living in your house? In that area? CA: Well- Ohh, I loved work, living out there. It’s nice. Course now, the transportation was what was, if you had to go to town, or anywhere, you had to go all the way to south Roanoke County to catch the street car. So, if you didn’t drive, which I later- I went to work, bought me a car, so I drove then. I had a car, and I drove. Till, I reckon, I don’t know what happened. Some of that I don’t remember. (laughs) I don’t remember whether I- It was when, after I had that wreck, course, tore my car up. Probably that. Wadn’t workin’, didn’t have any money to, to have it fixed. Maybe I just sold 7 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 it like it was and somebody- Well it was a nice little car. Somebody fixed it up and went on with it. But that’s what they did with that, I think. And I didn’t- I guess I married again, probably…I went to Huntington, WV and lived for a long time with my husband till he passed away. All my husbands is passed away, and I didn’t kill ‘em. (laughs) BC: I wasn’t thinkin’ that. (laughing) CA: I don’t know. I said, somebody said, ‘Well sounds to me like you might’ve given somethingsomething,’ you know, just kiddin’ me. I said, ‘Well, no.’ But they all was young men, they wadn’t really old. I don’t know what. Just had different things that went around. Uh, we had- Let’s see what- He- It kinda slips my mind what they worked at. One of my husbands was a, was a, work on cars. And boy was he, if there was anything wrong with your car, he could really work on that. He could put it back just like it was, almost. BC: That’s a good person to have in the family. CA: Huh? BC: That’s a good person to have in the family. CA: Yeah. Yeah, he uh, he kept the cars on the road for me, go to work. He didn’t live long. 0:28:16.3 [interruption by Alicia Sell dropping off a recording kit, and a few questions that CA asked BC] 0:30:50.0 CA: I had- Let’s see, I had two boys, and a girl, when I was raising a family. And I was thinking I lost one of them. I cain’t remember. My memory’s not as good, like it once was. I don’t remember things. But I don’t remember a whole lot. I think sometimes well I cain’t remember it. BC: What was your daughter’s name? CA: [Did not hear my question] Yeah. So that’s the way it is. BC: What was your daughter’s name? CA: She works at Hecht’s, my old, my daughter. I’ve got one daughter and two sons. 0:31:27.9 CA: She works at Hecht’s. She works in the beauty parlor. And she’s- She’s nice, you’d enjoy her, I mean she’s of course married. She married a Goodykoontz (??), I don’t know whether you run up with any or not, but her husband, he’s a mess and he’s cute though, I like him. I like Georgie. Georgie and I have a, fussin’ at one another, but a- Let’s see, Bill works at uhBC: You said GE? CA: Well, what’s that, what’s that-? BC: You said GE? CA: GE. Yeah. Bill works at GE. Bob he’s retired of course. He’s- And Caroline she’s working at Hecht’s in the beautician part. (chuckles) So that’s the way about my, that’s about the part of my life, and me, I’m sittin’ here doin’ nothin’. (chuckles) But I guess I’ve had a lot to do in my life. I always managed to work and have what I wanted myself. 0:32:44.2 BC: Claudia, what was it like growin’ up in Roanoke? CA: Do what? BC: What was it like growing up in Roanoke? It sounds like the roads were kinda tough andCA: Yeah, they were. Yeah, they- I really think that sometimes if your husband dies, you know, you sorta left out in the left field and sometimes it’s a sudden thing and you don’t know right from wrong. I don’t know. Course I, I stayed at home. I always had to come back home. And just jump in, help out, go to work. I worked, as I say, I worked at the drugstore for a long while- My older sister, she run, uh, McKesson/McKess n’ Robin (??). She…mixed, made their medicine, you know, and all theShe was noted for that, you know. She’d go in and fill- And I’d have to pour, I’d have to- I worked with her and I filled Castor Oil bottles, all this stuff, you know that you see in stores. And that’s what I 8 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 did when I worked there, just helped her out. I didn’t get a lot of money, but I got a little bit. (chuckles) I don’t know…..BC: Now where was that? Was that in Roanoke? CA: Huh? BC: Was that in Roanoke? CA: Uh huh. BC: McKess and Robins? CA: It’s on Salem Ave. BC: Oh, no kiddin’? CA: Uh huh. It was on Salem Ave. then. And I haven’t been, I haven’t really been back thereCourse I left, married, and then went away. I didn’t get home too often. When you had children, your husband works, you don’t know that much, so that’s the way it is. But, I kinda, I don’t much want to sell my home. But, maybe I’d better listen (laughs). BC: Do you have any really good memories living there? CA: Huh? BC: Do you have any good memories of living in your home? CA: Oh sure. … It was- Oh, I don’t know, I have good memories but I can’t think of a whole lot of them. BC: Were there any holidays, or did you do the big holiday dinners? CA: Oh yeah, we had all that. Sure. BC: You said you were interested in cookin’ CA: Had big Christmas trees- Go up there in them woods and cut down the prettiest one we could find and, and bring it down to the house and set ‘er up to the window and- She pretty as- I’ve gotta lotta pictures, but I don’t know where they’re at. Not here I don’t think. Probably somebody, some of the chi- kids probably got ‘em. And uh, what- I’ll always up and at ‘em. I worked at the Hollins College for a long time and then from there I went, I went to uh, silk mill. I worked there for a long time. I worked there I think before I went to, to uh- And then when I went back I went back to work at the silk mill. I worked there till they closed it down. So, whole lotta all this stuff [motions around the furniture in the room], I bought myself. (laughing) So that’s the way it was. BC: That’s a good feeling. CA: Well, I guess it’s been alright. Been kinda bad in some ways. I guess we all have that. Good and bad. But, just have to make the best of it and go on. Try to do the best you can, that’s been my fix of it. (chuckles) Oh me. But that’s the way life is sometimes. I wish I could live it over. It was a lot of fun. (laughing) 0:36:44.9 BC: What’s a, what’s a really fun thing that you remember? CA: Huh? BC: What’s a really fun thing that you remember? CA: Oh, gosh. BC: Anything in particular? CA: Go up in the woods, and hang a rope up on them trees and swing out over- (laughing) BC: Was this as a kid? CA: yeah! BC: When you were young? CA: Yeah, and then when I got big too. We’d go out there and get in that swing and swing up as high- I think that’s about where that new house went up there. They probably gonna build houses all up in there. It’s a big- It used to belong to Garrett’s, was the, old Garrett Farm. Now we first went there it was horse and cattle, mules. It was just like an old- I guess my mom and dad, I don’t know if my dad was living then or not. I guess he was. Seem like that’s all- Mom, I kind of know when she 9 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 passed away, but I can’t remember my dad much. I was the baby of the family, so I reckon I wadn’t very old. But uh- Walked up the railroad track to Ogden School anyway and rode the railroad (laughing). That was0:37:53.8 BC: What was school like? CA: It was, it um- What was what? BC: What was school like? Ogden School? CA: Oh, it was nice. We had- I believe, I don’t know- I can’t remember now whether it was a one room just starting from the first, second and third and seventh grade, I believe. It went far as the seventh. And uh, I think I remember startin’ just when I was real small, just an ol’ … How old was you when you, when you started school? BC: About five, I think. Six? CA: Well I think I might have been four or five, somewhere in there when I started. And we’d, we had a- Well, it was right hard to go to school because we had to go through the pines and it rained, or snowed, it just- We had to uh, we’d have to go the railroad track. Momma, she’d worry, so we wouldn’t do it. She’s afraid we’d get up- (chuckles) My sister said, ‘Now see, I’m gonna tell Momma if you get on that .’ That’s the way that goes, you know. She said, ‘I’m gonna tell Momma, tell Momma on you for gettin’ on that seat.’ And I’d ride a good ways before they’d caught me. ‘What are you doin’?!’ Scare the fire out of me and I’d jump off. I’d tell her, I said ‘You watch for me. When you see him coming through the cab, holler and I’ll jump off.’ ‘I’m not gonna do it,’ she said. So that’s the way we used to have a lot of fun, that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whole lotta fun. I had- I hadn’t talked and thought about all that for a long, long time. It was fun. Yeah, it was fun. We, they had them big old banks, red clay banks at the, where the train went through, you know? (laughs) I’m known to ride through them things. Where they cut through the rail line, old red clay. I would jump off before I got to school cause I’s afraid they’d pile (??) ‘em and get on the- I’d tell ‘em I rode the train, though. Say, ‘Where a train? What train?’ And I’d say, ‘Well watch me and I’ll jump off sometime when I’m going through that-’ Now, idn’t that kid stuff? But I did. I’d ride through there, show ‘em I was ridin’ on the- If the men didn’t get me, they’d get me sometime and I wouldn’t get to ride. They’d watch me, or they got wise to my jumpin’ on it and jumpin’ off. Well, mercy, if momma know’d I did that she’d had a fit, I reckon. But, they wouldn’t tell on me. (laughing) My sister wouldn’t tell on me. BC: I think most momma’s would have fits. [at same time, Claudia did not hear] CA: ‘If you do it today I’m going to tell her!’ she said. They didn’t though. (laughing) I’d ride a little ways, but I wouldn’t ride very far. But it was fun jumpin’ on the seat of the cab of a railroad, where they will, the men sit, you know, to watch how everything is goin’. That’s why they kept trackin’ me, I guess. Oh shoot. But anyway, it was fun. 0:41:09.6 BC: What kinds of things did you do during the summer? CA: Huh? BC: What kinds of things did you do during the summer? Like when school was out? CA: Oh me. Well I tell ya. I went to- My sister run a drug company here, well drug store as I’ll have to say. You had to keep Castor Oil, turpentine, all that mess, you had to put up in bottles, and so I’d go to work with her and I’d fill turpentine, so many to a box you know, and turpentine and uh, Castor Oil. All them minor things, you know, that doctors’d give you to take that you could buy over the counter, you know. Course my sister- I’d have to fill ‘em up, wipe ‘em off, put the label on ‘em, put ‘em in boxes, and then we’d send them out to the drugstores. And it, see this was a wholesale house. So I went there and filled turpentine, Castor Oil, well, all that stuff that they, that you had by bottles, you know. And then you’d stack ‘em- I put ‘em in boxes and then send them to the drug stores that, if they had a order on ‘em you’d have to do that, so. But I kept ‘em pretty well organized 10 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 and with Castor Oil, turpentine, oh just so many different things, but I don’t remember them too. (chuckles) BC: So you worked a lot during the summer. CA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I worked in the summers with her. Course I had to go to school in the winter, but all the summers I worked with her. She’s more like a momma to me than my mother. My mother was always sick a lot, and she [the sister] was the oldest girl, and I had two sisters and a brother. And I’d go to work with my oldest sister, and we had to walk down the railroad track for a long time to go to work. It was…it was hard coming up then, we didn’t have things like, like they’ve got ‘em now. And we would have ta hurry and finally I did buy me a car. (chuckles) Bought me a Model T Ford, don’t I wish I had that now! (laughter) BC: Yeah. A lot of people would. CA: Boy I’d get in that old Model T and go to town, go anywhere I wanted to. 0:43:38.3 BC: What did you do in town when you drove in? CA: Huh? BC: What did you do in town when you drove in? CA: Oh, go to the, one of these drug stores where they sold sodas and then you’d go in where you’d buy clothes, look around, see what’s in style, then we’d go to, as you’ll say to the drug stores and order up your drink and get you something to eat if you wanted it. That’s kinda what it was, you’d sit around these, uh, tables, you seen these- I don’t know whether you’ve seen ‘em or not, but there was, there’s tables just everywhere. Not the round tables, you know, and so many’s at the- And, we’d go in the drugstores and order us up something to eat and drink and sat there and laugh and holler and- It was fun then, yeah it was. You know, I wonder sometimes if children have fun like they used to. I don’t believe they do, really. BC: How come? CA: They might though. I- Course I don’t- Difference, difference in aBC: How come you don’t think they might have, or why do you think they might not have fun? CA: Well I know they have fun at some things, but it, you know, like goin’ in a drugstore and sittin’ down and ordering up your stuff. I reckon you could do it, I mean I just, oh I did for a long time, I guess you could, it’d be fun. …wasn’t like I go out with anybody now. (??) We go sometimes toDid. Before, before I come out of the cap all round, but I always had a car though. I’d go and get a bunch and we’d travel somewhere. Not far off, but we’d- Them Model T Fords, they could be fixed, most anybody come along if someone break down and they could fix it. 0:45:23.8 BC: How many people did you fit in one? CA: Huh? BC: How many people did you fit in your Model T? CA: Well, you could uh- Not many. (laughing) Probably three could get in there if they squeezed a little bit, in that front seat, you know. BC: Was it just a front bench seat? CA: Yeah. BC: Ok CA: Yeah, just had a front seat. And then, that was about it. (laughing) But, it took you there and brought you back, that’s about all you were looking for then. Sometimes we’d go pick up somebody if there wadn’t nobody around and, and go pick ‘em up or call ‘em up. We always had a telephone, from when they first come in. I’d call ‘em up and tell ‘em, ‘Be ready. I’ll be right over.’… We’d go to town, or go somewhere and sit. You used to go up on Bent Mountain and that’s where I come off onThat’s where I come off and was layin’ with the car on top of me. BC: That’s steep around there. 11 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: Yeah, it was. It was goin’ round that corner and that- I wadn’t driving though, I wish I had a been, but- My sister’s- One of my sister’s friends, Bose (??<pronounced Bows>), was driving my car around this, and he was goin’ round these sharp curves, you know, such sharp curves. I haven’t been up there for years. I’d love to go. BC: It’s still steep. (chuckles) CA: Huh? BC: It’s still steep. CA: Is it? BC: Yeah. CA: I would know that bend, if they hadn’t cut it down, just as well if I’d- It was a, it was a sharp bend in the road. And it- And I cain’t, I cain’t remember who was driving us now, less it was this fella that my sister was goin’ with. I was on the outside of the, you know, I was just one, one seat Ford, Model T Ford and it had- Just three could set good, and that wadn’t good. And I’s settin’ on the outside I guess that’s why it put me in the hospital. Oh well, I got over it. I didn’t- I wadn’t too bad, I don’t, I reckon maybe I- (chuckles) But, I don’t know, I got married after that and had ch-, babies so I reckon I was ok. BC: Sounds like it. CA: Yeah, I got two boys and one girl so I guess I made it ok. BC: You did. CA: Yeah, but it was, it was fun. All- I had a lot of fun growin’ up. I wish kids had a lot of fun like they used to, but they don’t I don’t believe. They seem like they want…(??)- They like to go to movies, and like to do things like that, but, you know, I used to love to get out on the road with the old Model T and have a ball. (chuckles) My momma’d be fussin’ all the time, ‘Don’t you go up on that mountain! Don’t you go up on that mountain!’ While Harriet’d (??) drive straight for that mountain…(??)(laughing) That the way you did when you was growing up? (chuckling) BC: I think we all have a little bit of that in us. I did a little bit of that too. CA: Yeah, that’s right. You do, and I tell you, it’s fun to think about it and talk about it. But I don’t think children have as much fun as we did, growin’ up, you know, as I did. I had a lot of fun growin’ up. Finally decided to get married (chuckled). And he didn’t live very long. He died. He, he worked in the- If you go to Huntington, West Virginia, he worked in the hotel, um, I can’t think, I can’t- Now I- That won’t come to me, what the name, hotel, what the name of that hotel was to save my life. He uh- Pritchard. Hotel Pritchard. Jimmy was head of the, all the work they went on there, you know, like uh, fire, like the- Keepin’ it warm, you know, keepin’ the whole building- …Let’s see, what was that name of that hospital, that hotel, that they stayed, oh, they worked in- Oh me, can’t think of it now, but anyways they worked in it and my, my boyfriend then had a Model T Ford. Oh, I had one and I’d take him (chuckles). Yeah I take him places. I’d go pick him up. And then I married him, and he died too. And that’s my life, all my husbands has died, left me, but, my last, last husband he made good money. I’m not poor. He, he supplied for me so, uh, that was good. Yeah, he- Yeah, I get good sized check from him every month. And that, sure feels, sounds good to me. Course I ain’t seen it, but- (chuckles) It sounds good. Keeps me here. BC: It’s nice bein’ comfortable. CA: Yeah. Yeah, he’s- He lookin’ out after me so I, I reckon, I guess I’m better off than a lot of ‘em. Cause, he wanted me to have everything. BC: Did you deserve it? [not sure if she heard my question] CA: And I guess I did. 0:51:07.7 BC: Did you deserve it? To have everything? (chuckling) CA: Yeah, I reckon. (chuckling) Yeah, I had- No, I didn’t have everything but I had, just a good life. And uh, and I, course married again. He was a- Hadn’t talked about my husbands. He, he, he 12 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 was a- I married a Johnson, I believe the last time. I hadn’t thought about talkin’ about gettin’ married and havin’ husbands. Well I had, let’s see- One, at least three, and two of ‘em passed away. No, I don’t guess I had but two, I don’t know. (chuckles) I cain’t keep up with ‘em. I hadn’t thought about ‘em in a long time. But uh, they were both good men, if I had two husbands, I think. I won’t put that third on cause I cain’t place him. (chuckling) But anyways, we- They was there, one time or another and uh, I have one…one son by him. He’s retired. He comes in, he comes in and fix the menus for me to eat, most every week. ‘This would be good, Mom.’ He’s, he’s married, got a son, two girls, and a wife. He lives out like goin’ to- Well, goin’ to Bent Mountain, up that way, it’s a road that goes out that way. Well, that’s the one I lived on till I, until I married and left Roanoke. Seem like, my life’s a whole lot of mystery. (chuckles) It’s done faded away. I’ve told you a whole lot of it. But I don’tIt’s probably more to it then I’m thinkin’ of0:53:10.1 BC: It’s hard to keep it all in mind. CA: [at same time] I’ve, I forgot most of it. Yeah, you do. I think of it, a whole lot of it sometimes. But uh, just seem like I married and done like I wanted to do. Well, I worked in Viscose [rayon plant in Roanoke] when I was married. That was- Made pretty good money there. And, when I was younger I worked with my sister, as I say, puttin’ up Castor Oil. She gave me money, you know, along. They did, but- That kep’ her from doin’ it, she had prescriptions to fill for drug stores and I’d do the Castor Oil and the turpentine and all that mess, puttin’ it in gallon jugs, or pints, quarts, whatever they wanted. So many pints, so many quarts. It’s a wonder I can remember that. But, I am, I’ve got into it now, it’s got in my brain. And uh, they’d pick it up, drugstores’d pick it up. (small laugh) Oh me, it was fun, I liked it. I don’t know whether girls have fun anymore, like we- Wadn’t a whole lot to have fun with, but then you could go and do and have fun. I loved to dance and boy, I’d go to- uh, I was trying to think of that place where I danced so much. It’s going out the other road. Oh gosh. I had, it just come to me now, but I can’t think of what the name of it- Probably will, once, sometime when you ain’t sittin’ there to talk to and I say, ‘Dang, why couldn’t I have thought of it.’ It was a popular place. You could go in there and dance, drink beer, you know and all that stuff. But I never drank anything. I may tasted just ta let on like I was drinkin’, (chuckles) but I didn’t. I’d be afraid to go home if I was. 0:55:11.8 BC: What kind of dancing did you do? CA: Oh, well, two steps- I used to do the Charleston…you know, I’d dance up at, I could do that great. And then, two-step, one-step- I could dance most anything. I was, danced up a storm. (laughs) BC: Was that every week? CA: Huh? BC: Was that every week, that you went dancing? CA: Huh? BC: Did you go dancing every week? CA: Oh yeah, every Friday and Saturday night. On the dance floor we were- Somebody come along, ‘Let’s go dancin’, and that’s the way I- Momma said, and I was afraid Momma’d worry about me, and I, I tried to keep that from her. I’d say we were goin’ to the movie, goin’ to a movie. Didn’t go to a movie no more than nothin’. We went dancin’. BC: [at same time] Were there a lot of people? CA: Well she liked to dance, too, so she, she’d known it. I told her, sometimes I’d tell her, but not all the times we’d tell her we was goin’ dancin’. But nobody didn’t like to dance like I did. Now I had two sisters, they wouldn’t (??) dance, but sure I’d dance any of it. (laughing) I, I was the baby and I could just get out there and do anything, dance any of that stuff. Two-step, one-step, Charleston, I’d do that Charleston and all that stuff, you know. Oh, it was fun. BC: Which one was your favorite? 13 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: [didn’t hear question. At same time] I haven’t thought about that stuff and you sittin’ here listening to me. I hadn’t thought about that stuff in a time. That’s my life’s past history, but it was fun. I’ll have to say, I enjoyed it. BC: That’s good. CA: Yeah. BC: Now, I, I- What made you, what made you interested in talking with me? I mean, I’m a stranger. (laughs) CA: Oh, I know, Oh, I know. Well, I don’t know! (laughs) BC: I was just curious. (chuckling) CA: You just sat down there like you was, might be interested. (laughs) I don’t know, not in what I had to say, I just, went ahead and jabbered away. BC: Well, thank you. CA: [didn’t hear] Well, I have, don’t have anybody to talk to, you know, it’s kinda good to, you come in, I was goin’ to talk to you as all my past, present, and future. (laughs) But, I say don’t think girls have as much fun as they used to. They might, I don’t know. I really haven’t been on a dance floor since I’ve gotten married the last time, and uh, always- I never did stay out too late and worry my mother. I’d always try to get in before it got too late, if I could. 0:57:47.6 BC: What time did you have to be home? CA: Well, before two or three o’clock anyway. (laughing) Yeah, I better try to make it before two or three o’clock. Sometimes she’d be asleep…and then I’d get married, and that’s the way it is. I was married twice. I married a Johnson the first time and he passed away on me, then I married aBC: Wilson? CA: (laughs) [didn’t hear me] My last husband, I can’t think of his name. BC: Was it Akers? CA: Huh? BC: Akers? CA: Akers. Oh me, I just said it not long ago. Slips my mind. Yeah, I married an Akers. Oh me, wellBC: Claudia, I’ve taken up a lot of your time today. Thank you. CA: (laughs) Well, I ain’t doin’ nothin’. You, you might have a lot of things you want to do and I’ve talked my head off at you. BC: That’s ok. CA: Well, I don’t have nobody to talk to. Bill come in, watch the news, watch the, looks at the paper. ‘Momma, is there anything you want?’ and then, time almost to go eat. That’s the way we go. But he comes in everyday, sees everything is alright, and- I told him, I said, ‘You don’t want to make Judy mad.’ I said, ‘She might not like you comin’ everyday.’ ‘Nah, Judy ain’t got nothin’ to do.’ (laughs) That’s the way that goes, you know. Are you married? BC: I am. I am. Been married for about four and half years now. CA: Well, that’s nice. BC: Gettin’ started. (shared laughter) CA: Well, if you’re happy, I’m glad for you and wish you all the happiBC: I am. CA: Have you got any children? BC: No, no. CA: Don’t have any children. BC: No, just dog and a cat. CA: WellBC: Not yet. 14 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: Well, I’ve always liked children, but still, I guess I- Had ‘em anyway. (laughs) Yep, I had ‘em anyway. BC: Well Claudia, is there any last closing thoughts that you want toCA: Do what hon? BC: Are there any last closing thoughts that you wanted to offer, or-? Cause I’m gonna have to wind down here and go, go pick another victim. (laughing) CA: Somebody that lives here, you mean? BC: Yeah, I’m actually scheduled to talk with another person. CA: Honey, I don’t know anybody here yet. I ain’t been here- And I don’t get out, plug around like I used to. I probably would though, do a little better than that, but I just- If they come in and talk to me, I’d jabber away at ‘em I reckon, but I don’t, I’m not much on- Well, if they’d come in, we could talk…sometimes- I have two girlfriends that come see my quite often, course they’re married and they come. One of ‘ems, I think one of ‘ems got a baby, or child. The other one, probably has. I don’t know. Some comes more often than the other one then I forget ‘em. Whoo, I put this thing [house coat] on this morning cause it was cold in here and now it’s gotten hot. (laughs) That’s, I’ve been running my jibber jabber, I’m burning up. I’ll have to hunt me up something to put on that’s cool. Oh me. BC: Well Claudia, I want to thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it. CA: Oh honey, I’m real glad to see you and jabber at you. I hadn’t talked about none of that for so long that I guess, I’d…remember, but I, I haven’t. I remembered. 1:01:43.9 BC: Oh you remembered just fine. CA: Yeah, it was, it was fun. I had fun growin’ up. BC: It sounds like it. CA: I really did. And I had fun married too. Then my husbands all left me, but (laughs) in a good way. SoBC: Well I’m gonna go ahead and turn this off CA: [at same time] The good Lord left me here, and took- Let’s see, I’ve been married what, twice, three times? Which is it? (laughs) BC: Well you told me both. (laughing) I think, it sounded like three though. CA: Huh? BC: It sounded like three. CA: Yes, I believe it is. I’ve been married three times. And all my husbands passed away on me. Well, I reckon it was time for the good Lord to take ‘em. I guess I was good to ‘em all. BC: Sounds like it. CA: Oh, I think we did have fun. My last husband was kinda old fashioned. His mother lived with us. She was real sweet, but- You know, it uh, he’s kinda old-timish like. He wadn’t crazy like I was. (laughing) BC: He didn’t stay out til two or three in the morning? CA: No. He didn’t- He might- He did drink, but not out of proportion, but he did like his- Well, sometimes I drank with him. But, uh, anyways, I guess I did when I was goin’ with him. Probably after I got married, I didn’t drink. Oh, I never drank that much. [Claudia rattling a candy wrapper in the back ground] If I’d’ve come home drunk my mother’d shot me. (laughing together) No, I might take it to please ‘em a little bit, may drink a little bit. Oh well, a little bit of whiskey ain’t gonna hurt you, but I don’t want to- (laughs) BC: A little bit won’t. A lot might. (laughs) CA: But it do, it’ll make you happy once in a while. (laughing) BC: It will. It definitely will. 15 �Claudia Akers Neighborhood Oral History Initiative 9/17/07 CA: Yeah, I’ve had some big times, I’ll tell you, in my life. I hope the good Lord’ll forgive me if I’ve done anything that wadn’t right, butBC: We can all hope, right? CA: Yeah. BC: Well thank you Claudia, we’ll have toEnd of interview 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Claudia Akers Subject The topic of the resource Washington Heights Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Claudia Akers Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 17 September 2007 Location: Our Lady of the Valley Total Duration: 1:04:07 Transcription prepared by: Brian Clark Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 September 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Claudia Akers; Brian Clark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AkersClaudia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2667/WarrenWilma_[compressed].mp3 2a1c68d31369b94aab9d7b039cf872b9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2667/WarrenWilma.pdf a9ab500e271eb158acec863eeb00ec89 PDF Text Text Interview Transcription Interviewee: Wilma Warren Interviewer and Editor: Brian Clark 9/17/07 General Location: Our Lady of the Valley, 650 N. Jefferson St., Roanoke, VA 24016 Editor’s Note: Most of the repeated words, ums, you knows, and false starts have been omitted from this version of the transcription to allow for ease of reading. I ask the reader to treat this transcript as a ‘summary’ of sorts of the interview. For any specific questions or interests, refer back to the audio recording for a more accurate portrayal of the interview. Time stamps are given periodically in the transcript to refer back to the recording. BC The interview took place in the common lounge immediately adjacent to Wilma Warren’s room in the Assisted Living facility. Interview start 0:00:21.8 BC: This is Wilma Warren on September 17 (2007) interviewed by Brian Clark. Formalities out of the way. WW: Ok. BC: Ok. So tell me a little bit more about TAP (Total Action Against Poverty). Why were you interested? WW: Well, I didn’t know what I was doing when I was hired by Bristow Hardin because there had never been a- The community action agencies were just forming in the United States as a result of war on poverty legislation that President Johnson got the Congress to pass, but it really had come from the Kennedy people. It was part of the Kennedy and the Johnson new assault on poverty and those issues. And so they hired Bristow Hardin who was- He had worked for the public schools and with the public radio for at least fifteen years before that here in Roanoke, and he was well suited for the job because he was an actor. He had an MFA in drama. And he wanted to be in the big time and he went up there for a while and began to get some work and realized he really didn’t want to do that. He wanted to come back to- Some place. He grew up in Virginia Beach but he wanted to come back to a community where he could raise his family and live a life that he thought was worth- And he could make a contribution and he certainly did. So anyway, when Cabell Brand, you know who he isBC: I do actually. WW: All right. When Cabell Brand- He’s the person that just- He read about this legislation. And he says, ‘That’s for Roanoke,’ and so he got, he took I think a- I forgot how much—I think it was a year, but maybe it wadn’t that long, leave of absence from his company, and he organized the community action agency at TAP. And, he was instrumental in hiring Bristow as the first director. And, as they say, that really was the beginning of TAP, and it was just a wonderful new way of looking at community life. Now it seems- You know, we’re used to it, but when we first started TAP, one of the ideas that we had to say we would introduce was that the Board of Directors and all other boards and other governing groups that were organized by TAP had to have one third membership from the low income community. Well, people said, ‘That won’t work at all.’ Said, ‘They’d never done it-’ Said, ‘What do the poor people know about running an organization?’ Well, to begin with, that was one of the best experiences I ever hadBC: I bet. �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: -and which I had some doubts, but I had worked with low income people enough to know that they were certainly smarter than the average bear thinks they are. And so, that was- Let me see. Cabell and Bristow went all over the Roanoke Valley, all going (??) to- Ended up with TAP having seven counties and covering Roanoke City, Roanoke County, and six other counties geographically adjacent. And then they had representatives, and they had the- I’ve forgotten what they called ‘em, but they were like mini, you know, Boards of Directors from different, these different agencies- In other words, we tried to diffuse power rather than cenBC: Centralize? WW: Centralize. And that really was interesting too because a lot of people- And you know, the people who were opposed that, didn’t really, they didn’t oppose it, I don’t know…just because they didn’t want to lose power, they opposed it because they weren’t familiar with it. It was just an unheard of sort of idea. And as it turned out, I just want to quickly say that the low income people became the strongest members of our Boards, over the years. They had the most to contribute, and they could contribute, and they did contribute, and it was really wonderful. BC: A huge vested interest. WW: Pardon? BC: A huge vested interest. 0:04:36.3 WW: Oh, yes! But see, before- For instance, when the first day care center was open, we had trouble filling the slots. We had, I think we had 90 slots. It was the one in the old building that burned later. It was a large day care center. It was a building, TAP building, it was on Shenandoah Ave. It was a building- Flour mill, the Lindsey Flour Mill, and it burned on Christmas Eve Eve in nineteen ninetyninety-eight, ninety-nine. One of those years. It was a terrible thing. It was the biggest fire I ever saw in my life. It was cold, cold, cold. But anyway, uh, what was I saying, about theBC: Talking about the kids. WW: Uh huh, oh yes. BC: And that you couldn’t fill the slotsWW: Yeah, we thought, I mean, we thought people would be knocking the doors down. We thought we’d have to do- We thought our big, our first big really public relations problem would be that we wouldn’t have enough room for these kids. We found out that not only were the kids not coming, the reason their parents didn’t wanna put ‘em in there was because one, they thought it was too good to be true. They thought there was a catch. And the other was, that they thought they’d have to disclose how much money income they had, and that somehow or another that would be used against them no matter what their income was, see. And so, they just, were so used to being untrustworthy, noUntrusted, not untrustworthy, that they uh- And so, when we found that out then Bristow had a lot of us just go out and knock on doors in the neighborhoods and talk to the people. And so we soon got enough kids to open that day care and it was a huge success. BC: I bet. 0:06:12.0 WW: One of the happiest, one of the best memories I have about that day care- It was in the old TAP Building. So it meant that the workers, all of us who worked in that building, and the kids and the day care center was in the building that Lindsey, uh, the Lindsey Mills people had built for their office, general office there. It was attached to the old mill part. And we all shared restrooms, so whenever you’d go to the restrooms there’s be these little girls standing there talking and they were so cute and I remember one thing, I just remember so well- We had put a full length mirror up on the wall, on the wall, and this little girl, she was pudgy little, pudgy black girl with the prettiest hair- She was, she was a pretty little thing. She just- She had wrapped her arms around herself and was kissing herself in the mirror and said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘Oh, you’re so beautiful. You’re so beautiful.’ And I said to myself, 2 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 that’s our job you know, is to make sure she never forgets how beautiful she is. And she didn’t. She did very well we understand. BC: That’s amazing. WW: Idn’t that a great story? 0:07:13.1 BC: And what was your role there? WW: I was- Well first I had been Bristow Hardin’s secretary at Wesleyan School, so I was…(??)…a bookkeeper/secretary. Now you realize, this is a- It became a multi-million dollar outfit very quickly when we got our first big funding. I had no experience in that kind of bookkeeping, but it was so simple, you know, and a local CPA, Mr. Bowman, I believe it was, set it up for us. Showed me how to do it, but it was so simple, and then we have a- That first grant was for, I think, $90,000. That was mostly staff people to get, give us a start with. So, that’s what I did, but then I quickly became also a program writer, an idea person, because you know, we had our own, I think, eight of us on the, eight or nine people on the grant. And so we put together with Cabell’s help and a lot of volunteers, the getting information cause the Office of Community Services which was the organization in Washington that funded us. They had done an excellent job of telling us what they needed to know, which also, we needed to know too to develop programs. They helped us learn what it was we needed. I don’t think they’ve ever gotten- You talk about the bureaucracy so much, and I agree there’s a lot of it that’s bad, but that was really done well. And it taught me, it taught all of us so much about what it is, and how to account for what we did, you know, and to develop numbers of people helped, and how they were helped rather than just talking about it. And we were among the first of the government agencies to really do that because they were so afraid that if anybody- If we didn’t do a good job like that then we would quickly be de-funded and that’d be the end of us. And we had some, we had some bad apples, now, not in Roanoke thank god, but, you know, in the United States. There were some people who really, didn’t obey the laws and they got un-funded, and that was badBC: That’s tough. 0:09:27.5 WW: Yeah! But boy, we- We always felt, and Bristow just pounded into our heads, he said, ‘We have two equally important jobs to do. One is to-’ He was talking to the staff rather, but really he meant the Board too, he said, ‘One is to develop a …(?) program and keep to it and deliver. And the other is to be sure that we kept our money stuff straight and we-’ He was so open with the press, you know- No secrets were hid. There were no- Nothing was hidden with Bristow. And that was important too, to learn. And so I always taught my staff that too, you know- It’s not enough to have a good heart and all that, even to deliver programs withall (??) without being responsible to the money. BC: That’s true. WW: Responsible for the money. So anyway, I don’t know how I got onto that, but that’s- Thinking about the early days of that program was just wonderful. TAP was also the first program of any size that I’m aware of that had an integrated, racially integrated staff. Where, whereBC: Now that was- [interrupting] WW: Except there was one other, I found out later, and that was the YWCA. Before us, they had racially integrated staff where- Well to me, it was the first time that I know of in Roanoke where blacks and whites worked together as peers. That was the important thing. And, it was a wonderful experience, andBC: I bet. WW: Because that’s what I felt so much when, you know, when our- Since 1954, you know, when they started desegregating the schools. The thing I felt was that the schools would never really be desegregated in the way I thought would be fair until whites and blacks had peer relationships. Friendships, you know. And that’s what happened here. And, I know when we first started, we’d go 3 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 to restaurants- They, they realized they had to seat us, you know, mixed company, mixed group. But there was some that didn’t like it all and I had friends who I thought were my friends who wouldn’t speak to me when they’d see me at lunch with some of the black employees. But, it just, you know, it was hard for everybody. It was hard for everybody. But it was harder for the blacks than it was for the whites and that’s the thing I think, we’ll work on. BC: Oh, I bet. That’s one of those thingsWW: It was exciting [at the same time]. BC: It’s been- A lot of that has transitioned into other issues nowWW: Oh yeah, oh yeah. BC: From my generation growing up, so to hear you just, to go out to eat with your coworkers to a restaurant, and that- Yeah, that’s the things you don’t think about. 0:12:07.9 WW: Alright. Well, for instance. I remember once…(??)…All of these are early, early, early stories. We had this big meeting one day, one Saturday I remember, and there were a lot of local people who worked in other non-profits and like. I remember one, this young man, who was an assistant minister of a local church. And he was from out of town. And we were talking about how, uh- You know, people were discriminated [jumbled pronunciation], discriminated against in getting jobs. And he was so innocent, and he sat there and I never forget it, he said, ‘I don’t understand what you are talking about.’ He said, ‘What do you mean that blacks are discriminated? How do you prove it?’ I said, “Ok.” I said, ‘I’ll give you a phone book and I’ll mark places in there, businesses to go to and you go and tell me how many blacks you see working in anything but menial jobs—cleaning, or serving food, or serving the whites.’ Well, he didn’t say anything and he still wadn’t satisfied and I said, ‘I don’t know of a single business in this town. The only-’ No, I really don’t because I remember the only one that I do remember was- It was a menial job, the man who Bristow hired as one of his assistant directors, he was a college graduate. He never had a job though, where he could really work, do what he’d taken in college. He was an orderly for Lewis Gale Hospital and he carried my children in, you know, after they had their shots to get their tonsils out. I remember him as well as anything and the next time I met him, see, he would- And he became the Director of the Community Action Agency in Warrenton, one of the best in the country. And you know, it was just that kind of thing. But anyway, that’s how- I think we were just blinded to the fact at how we took so bad, took for granted the way that people lived. And the way we treated other people. BC: It’s hard looking past what’s socially acceptedWW: Oh yeah. BC: And when everybody’s looking at it, you know, you might have a few, such as yourself, where, that notice that distinction but, you know, if the larger culture isn’t reallyWW: [interrupting] And the reason that I noticed it, it was two mainly. My mother and father, especially my father, he was- I grew up in Bridgewater, it was aboutBC: Up near, uh, Harrisonburg? WW: Yeah. BC: Oh, Ok. WW: And in the early thirties, up through, uh, I graduated from high school in ’45. I started school in thirty- thirty- thirty-two/thirty-three. And I- Anyway my dad was on the School Board there for a number of years, in Bridgewater. It was a small town, as you know, and the thing I can remember him so well saying- Every time- In Bridgewater, if there was a fire, they had a volunteer fire department so the siren went off downtown. Everybody knew there was a fire, and I know my Dad always stopped and he said his heart just kinda stopped, because he said the school that the black children went to there was so poorly- Well, they heated it with a big ole pot bellied stove that got red, burnin’ red hot, and then they had to cool it off. It was terrible. And he said he felt so afraid that they’d have a 4 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 fire before the School Board could really do anything about that. And it- Just hearing him talk that, and he was very unusual. (??)…for that time and place. BC: Sounds like it. 0:15:31.7 WW: But Bridgewater was, because Bridgewater College, see, the Brethren church were always very racially and- Well they just were always very socially aware of things, and I know they were the first school I knew of that the girls basketball team in nineteen, I’d say fifty-one or two, it was before the ’54 decision, they forfeited the State Championship to Hollins College because the championship game was going to be played at Hollins and they could not provide a room for their two black basketball players on the Bridgewater team, where they could sleep the same place the others did, so they said, ‘Thank you just the same, we’ll forfeit that game.’ You know, when you have those things happen in your life and you know, it’s people that you know, then you feel, you feel- It becomes personal to you, so anyway. That’s why- It’s not good of me, it’s just that- I had a lot of good influences. BC: Sounds like it. WW: I did. I did. And anyway, let’s see. I was talking about TAP. TAP, it was so wonderful because Bristow was totally unorthodox. And he would not be- Cabell and I, a lot of people, tried to help him become more orthodox but he just wouldn’t do it. And I’m glad he wouldn’t. BC: Sounds like it was a good thing, in the long run. WW: Oh, it was. It was. His father was a music, famous music teacher down in Virginia Beach area, but how he got the way he got, though, something I just don’t understand. Now I think some people just born with a sensitivity to other people’s pain. I think Bristow was one of those people. He just, I mean, he just was so flat out, out and out, he was loud and raucous, but he made you realize, I mean just- You’d think you knew what was right, you know, what was right thing to do or something and he’d say something, you just knew immediately, he just turned you upside down and all. And it was a great, great experience for us all. 0:17:43.6 BC: You mentioned the, the different ways TAP was brought into the community and how the community had to look at itself differently, um, what other types of things were that? I’m curious by thatWW: Well one of the things was that we had to pay the minimum wage to people, at least the minimum wage. And there were some businesses and big businesses in town who resented that because they felt that TAP was hiring up the good workers because we could pay more than they paid to say their, their garbage people and that. Now they- I’m not talking about the city, at all, ok? That was one way. Another way was people, a lot of people of- Middle class white people, friends of mine, and others, they were not at all sure that they could trust us, they weren’t sure of what- Well, none of us really had lived in a desegregated world. You know? I wasn’t sure either, but I knew it was right. And so that’s, that’s the first step. So there was that, then there was just the, the mystery of TAP too, you know, because we were not- We were- Well, oh, another thing I remember we did, we had a march once on the newspaper because some women who were black tried to get their pictures up, you know, when they were going to get married, or their pictures after they were married, or whatever, put in the, on the same page as the whites and boy the paper refused. And I remember we did that march and we marched to the blood bank and gave a pint of blood, rather than you know, spilling blood. And that was a big thing that I, I uh- It wasn’t until we did it that we realized how strongly some people felt about desegregation. So it was that, to me I was sorta innocent and naïve. I thought once we had to do it, people would be so glad to do it, and a lot of people were, but a lot people weren’t either. It’s just, a lot of it I think came from, you know, we remember our father’s and mother’s tapes. I took a lot of father’s tapes, especially father’s, but it’s a lot of mother’s, were still in the heads of people, and it’s just hard to give it up. 5 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 0:20:00.1 And uh, let me see. Well, the churches were, the churches were the best platforms, white and black, the white churches and the black churches, mostly white churches gave us room for our Head Start centers. We had I think nine to start with. We could never have found a place that was suitable that the Health Department would approve of that could be used except in churches. And a lot of churches were very generous. Cause it was, it was a disruption to their use of the building, but they’ve done it and still do. I don’t know where all those are now, but I know that they did, and- And let me see. The big thing for me, just personally, was that I soon made a lot of friends, fast friends, that were friends for life of people who were black, and whose homes I visited and they’ve came, you know, …have been friends for years, and I tell you, it was a wonderful experience for me and I think for them too. And then there was another group of women that organized. I didn’t join it cause of- By this time I was traveling out of the city a lot, but a lot of the women, I think there were about, hmmm, 30 women at least to start with, over the years, and they’re still meeting and I’ve forgotten what they called themselves, but they’re black and white. And they talk about all kinds of things that has to do with race. And it’s just been a great- And that’s formed a core of women in this city that has just been invaluable. Tenya Hardin (??-Teen-ya) was one of them. Even if you look at the obituaries from somebody that dies, you know, uh, it’s- That, that was another thing. Let me see. Other ways. I think the most important thing in this is the fact that, that it was done without violence in this city. AndBC: Done without violence? 0:21:55.3 WW: Yeah, without violence. And that was partly because of Bristow and Cabell and the … (??). And then we also had, TAP had, we had some great, some of the best leaders in the city on our first Board of Directors. I wrote the first legal aid grant application. It was funded, and it was passed by the, it had to be passed by the local Bar Association before they’d put the money in the community. And it was, and so the leaders of the law community- There were a lot of people who didn’t think it was going to be a good idea, a good thing, but they passed it and that was good. You know we’ve always managed- Well, I think- I said we didn’t do it. It’s because there are in any community I believe, a number, a large number of people who believe that they should do what’s right. A lot of people do what’s right no matter what, and a lot of people just sort of, you know, they’re scared to. And in Roanoke in this valley, Bristow was determined that we would not gonna resort to, ‘or else’s,’ you know. We really tried not to blame anybody, but what was, we were just, involved in what is now and what we can change. And I think that helped us from getting so self righteous too, because, you know you didn’t have to look very far till you could see that you had been just as involved in this subtle racism as anybody else, so- And a lot of blacks were too, you know, so there you go. It’s just, nobody is free of it, and soBC: And we’re still working through it. WW: Oh, I know. BC: Luckily for different reasons now, but stillWW: Oh, but I think it’s always the basic reasons. It’s to allow as much freedom of choice as people want. Not as is possible, but freedom as people want. And I think that a lot of our problems now, you know, it’s not because the barriers are there, it’s because people just haven’t really wakened to the fact that they need to want that too, to make it go. It’s a- Well, it’s just, you know, there’s so many facets to it. BC: So, it’s huge. WW: It is. It is. 0:24:10.4 BC: Now, did you live in a desegregated neighborhood? WW: Uh, yes I did, but not at first. 6 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 BC: And where was that? WW: It was in, up in Grandin Court, near the Grandin Court school. I didn’t know it, I wasn’t aware of itBC: Was that the Virginia Heights? WW: No, no. It’s aBC: Grandin Court Elementary? WW: Yeah, Grandin Court, that area—Coffee Pot and all are in there. Uh, yes. Our neighbors sold their house to a black couple who were friends of mine. He worked at TAP. And he didn’t have any intention of trying to break into a neighborhood, he was looking for a house that he could afford, at a price he could afford, and with people…(??) So he bought the house next door to us, and our neighbor that had lived there before, let me see, no, I don’t know. Let me see, I’m trying to- Oh, that’s right, the neighbor of the house that they’d bought, he lived in between us, and I understood, he didn’t tell us but he said that he told some of the people in the neighborhood that if those people moved into his neighborhood he’s going to take his gun out and shoot ‘em. Now you can imagine I was terrified, when I heard that because I couldn’t imagine him doing it, but you never know. And so what we did, was I called Bristow and I said, ‘What can we do?’ because I didn’t want Billy to know but I thought it’d be terrible for him to know that somebody- You know, cause I thought the man was not going to do anything, but I wadn’t sure. But anyways, so we just had people, all friends of ours at TAP, everywhere we knew bring him food and come help him move in and everything. Do you know that within a year and half, that man and his wife gave their key to Billy, not to me, to keep for them and to watch over their house while they were gone on their vacation. Now, how’s that for a story? BC: That’s a story. WW: And thenBC: That’s pretty remarkable. WW: It is, and you know why he did it? It’s because Billy loved his car. He got out their every Saturday and washed his car. I mean, it’s just, just things like that that make people do such weird things, but idn’t that a wonderful story? But it’s true, and they were wonderful. They weren’t goodiegoodie goodie or anything, they really- They just learned by the fact that they knew them that they were good people, and that they’d rather have them watch their house than me. (chuckling) BC: Um hmm. Hey, they’re the neighbor, right? (chuckling) WW: I loved it. 0:26:36.6 BC: That’s great! Now, have you lived in Roanoke all your life? WW: No, I was uh, let me see, I think I was twenty six years old when I, no I wadn’t, I was older than that. I was twenty seven. Twenty seven I think. Twenty nine, I don’t know. I was just under thirty years old when we moved here. I lived in Bridgewater til I was nineteen, then we lived in Staunton for two years, then we lived in Richmond for seven years. BC: So you’ve been around the state a little bit. WW: A little bit. BC: A little bit. WW: They say, those- You know, you feel like you have different lives. I’ve changed so much, but I love Rich- Roanoke is the best, I think. I love it here. BC: That’s good, cause that’s where you are! (chuckling) WW: That’s right. It’s been great for my children and I know, you know, you want to talk about our neighborhoodsBC: Children are part of neighborhoods. WW: That’s right, and also not just my personal memories of neighborhoods, but also TAP. That’s really what we were about, was helping the, helping the low income people improving their 7 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 neighborhoods. Cause we had the, our motto was ‘hands up, instead of a- A hand up instead of a hand out.’ BC: We use that at Habitat too. WW: Yeah I know. BC: Yep. It’s a very good one. 0:27:46.6 WW: It’s true. It is. It is. Cabell, I don’t know if he made it up, but it came to us from Cabell. I was thinking about that this morning, I thought, well in some neighborhoods there- You just wouldn’t have known ‘em, really, but there’s still others that need a lot of help. And uhBC: Have you seen some that have improved? WW: Oh, yes. BC: Like which ones in particular? WW: Well, I think some of those in southeast now are really improved. And uhBC: Like as you’re going towards Vinton, andWW: Yeah. Right, right, right. Oh yeah. Well, I think that, hmm- I can’t even remember how it was, a lot of them, because they’ve changed so much. Well the (??), the Grandin Road area, down in there, I think around- Some of the places that seemed to be intractable, I don’t know why, unless, like Mrs.- Was it- Who was the lady that did the housing here in northwest? BC: I’m not sure. WW: Was it Mrs. Thompson? Anyway, she started this wonderful housing group here. She was a member, a elderly woman who started this program of helping people get loans for their houses and also got rehab loans- This whole area, of course Gainsboro, that’s one thing, but even beyond here, you know, where the housing is really improved a great deal- There is some, some deseg- [ cuts off], some integration of neighborhoods, but not- You know, it seemed interesting to me that there hasn’t been as much as I thought it would be, and I think that’s ok as long as it’s what people want. And we still have a problem in our schools, you know. And I think that it is- A lot of it is- I don’t know what a lot of it is, but I think that if you look at where the schools have had problems meeting the state standards, I think part of that is the fact that there are so many children in those schools who, who really come from families that they are of so little income, that they don’t have books, they don’t have many enrichment things, and I think that’s important. I think it’s important that parents participate in the schools and they’re not doing that in a lot of those schools to the degree that they need to do it. Why they’re not, that’s a whole different thing. I think- I’ve said for years that if you look through the school system and you were made to feel less worthy (??), you one of the outs people (??), and then when you got- When you just quit school and you got a job you ain’t goin’ to go back to that building for any reason, and I think that’s part of it. But I think that uh- I know that from a lot of my black friends who went to school when I was going to school, or you know, who were my contemporaries, and they succeeded because they said there was a grandmother or mother. There was a father. There was somebody, a mother and father, who said, ‘Now listen here, you are going to go to school and you are going to do well and you are going to go to college, if we can, you know, figure out a way.’ I think there’s not enough, of that. But there are also some wonderful clubs, that, help in you know, like uh, the program that helps kids go to college. What is it called? BC: There’s probably more than one out there now. There’s a lot. 0:31:24.0 WW: Anyway, there were just a lot of things- When I was at TAP all those years, and then I became the Director of the Virginia Water Project, which is a program that helps families in rural areas obtain safe water and indoor plumbing. That project was a little runner (??). It’s all over the country. In fact it’s just a lot of places now. But, I think that, uh, can you stop it a minute? I’m tired. BC: That’s ok. We can take our time. 8 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: I had a thought, important thought about, wait a minute. BC: No rush at all. WW: Wait a minute. BC: I’ll get some too. [water break] Where did I put mine? [pause] Would you like these closed? Or is this too bright? [referring to the blinds behind us] WW: I think so. BC: Ok. WW: I’m …(??). I’ve never had to wear sunglasses. BC: Reach over you here. [closes blinds] Sittin’ here beside you I realized how bright it was comin’ in that window. WW: Much better. Much better BC: Ok. WW: Thank you. BC: That was worth stopping for. WW: It was. I didn’t realize it. BC: Yeah, me neither. (chuckles) WW: Anyway, what was I talking about, something I said about, before I got intoBC: You were talking about the water project, and working with theWW: Right before that. BC: We wereWW: It was something important about TAP and the neighborhoods. BC: We might have to come back to that. WW: Yeah, I think so. I’ve just about shot what I know (??) about TAP, I think. What is missing? Should I talk more about what- I know what’s going on now, but not like I …(??). BC: Well, I’m curious about a couple of things too, one, what was it like coming to Roanoke for the first time? I mean obviously you became very invested here and moved on to these great things – WW: Let me tell you. [at same time] 0:33:56.9 BC: What, what was it like coming in, at you know, not quite thirty to the Roanoke Valley and living here? WW: It was terrible! BC: (laughing) WW: Because, from Richmond see- Now, in Bridgewater in Harrisonburg- Well Harrisonburg had some nice places to shop and we’d go to Richmond to shop. Didn’t ever come to Roanoke to shop then. So when I came here, I was used to Miller and Rhoads and Thalhimers, you know, and beer (??) grocery stores and- When we came to Roanoke, after a couple of weeks I said to my husband, I said, ‘You know, I really need to go downtown and buy a few things,’ I said. We had two children then, and I said- No, we had three I guess. No, we had two. Anyway, anyway, I said, ‘I need to just go down to Heironimus.’ We went in the car. He sat outside with the kids parked somewhere. Well I went in, and shopped for a few things. I came back to the car just bawling. I got in the car and I bawled. He said, ‘What happened?’ Said, ‘Did somebody upset you?’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘It’s awful.’ I said, ‘There’s no place to shop in Roanoke. It’s awful.’ Cause Heironimus was the biggest store. As I recall, I’d not swear to it, but in my mind the floors had those oily black floors. It was right down town, it was just really no place good to shop. There was only two restaurants. I remember one was that wonderful seafood place out on Williamson Road and then the other one was The New Yorker. BC: Which is still here. 9 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: Yes. And I tell you, there was really no place else you wanted to go out to at night, for a nice dinner. And let me see, it was just terrible. They had good movies. They had a great theater, American Theater. BC: Is that the one you went to? WW: Yeah. And it was torn down. Oh, it was a great theater. But let me see. Course, we didn’t have the Civic Center. It was just really- And the town see- Oh, railroad. The dust. Every morning I had to wipe the window sills out because they black, the dust from the coal. BC: Now where- Did you live close? Not just theWW: Yeah. Well, I lived out there- I lived at Virginia Heights. Course that road does go by there. Let me see. No, I lived in southwest Roanoke, but it wasn’t till they got diesel that that stopped. BC: And that’s because it was the old coal, steam? WW: Yeah, yeah. And so it was just- I mean that’s the way it was. To me Roanoke was- I didn’t want to leave because in Richmond I had missed the mountains so much that I swore I’d never live again where they didn’t have the mountains. BC: I had that experience in Richmond too. WW: Did you? BC: I lived there for about a year and half, and when I came back, I thought, ‘How did I, how did I not realize this? WW: I know. Oh I did. I used to lie- I used to get in, I used to stand at my kitchen window mornings after my husband would go to work, and I’d cry because I couldn’t see the mountains. It was just terrible. I thought. But, now I go to Richmond and I don’t miss the mountains because I’m used to them, you know, I know they’re here. But, uh, let me see. 0:36:50.7 What else was Roanoke like? Roanoke, oh, Roanoke. Oh my gosh, the City Hall- If you would just look back at the newspapers in those days, there were two factions I don’t even remember their names. I do but I won’t remember. They fought all the time, sometimes those meetings’d go past midnight and- Yeah, it’s amazing to me that- And my sister lived here, so she lived here quite long time, ten years I guess before I came here. So she knew the territory and she was involved with Association of University Women, AAUW. Anyway, they really looked at the legislation that was needed in this city and they did a good job over the years, they really did, and the city sort of took into modern- Well, the- I’ve forgotten. When the City of Roanoke got the form of government we have, there’s a City Manager, and that was a big improvement. I think itBC: Ok. Cause before it was just a council? WW: Yeah, and the mayor had a lot moreBC: Ok, there was more than one person directing as opposed toWW: Well, yeah. And also, see, the mayor- That was a full time- It became a full time job, it just was much better the way it is. And I think it may have changed before, right before we came here or right after. I know they had put the Mill Mountain Star up, oh, the Mill Mountain Star, I love it so now, but at first I thought it was the hokiest thing I ever saw. And at one time, they were gonna get rid of it. That’s when those of us who had made fun of it decided we wanted to keep it, soBC: Kinda liked it that way. WW: Um hmm. 0:38:24.6 BC: Now that was here when you got here? WW: Yes, it just was. BC: So, when did you come in? Sometime in the late 50’s, early 60’s? WW: Fifty- No, let me see. No, let me see. It was fifty-four. BC: So that was really- You came right as the star was being built. 10 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: Yeah. Right, right, right. Uh huh. Oh yeah. It was wonderful. But Roanoke was really a sort of one horse railroad town, you know. And I’m not knocking the fact that it was a railroad town. I think the railroad’s been very good for the city in a lot of ways, and I think that uh, as the health professionals are good for the city now, but- It was a pretty hokey town compared to Richmond. Now, I love it better by far than Richmond because for instance- Well, in the neighborhood, we lived in a good neighborhood in Richmond, and we had a lot of friends because there were a lot of young people there in those days. Our children were the boom, baby boomers. There was something about Roanoke that I think is just essential to raising children, and I’m not sure what it is, but for me it was. It’s large enough so that you can have things, good libraries, good schools, that sort of thing, but also, it’s small enough so that you can know all of your city people, all the elected officials. You can know your preachers, you are known and you know a lot of the people that are important in the city to making change and to decidin’ who does what. So I think that’s important to put, you know, what the city has become. 0:40:09.4 I think it’s just miraculous. I think it’s miraculous that here I am 81 years old and when I came here, I used to sit at St. John’s at a certain place in the church, I still do. But I sat there, I was a young mother with these little children. Now I’m one of the oldest members and I’m still sittin’ in the same area of the church, and I’ve watched this whole group of people age, and die, and new leaders come up- Little kids, that were little kids are now the movers and shakers. And it’s nice, it’s a nice feeling to have experienced that. AndBC: And played quite a part yourself. WW: That’s right. That’s right. And I was glad I could. Well, you see, I didn’t want to go to work at all because I just, I thought being at, being at home with the kids- My mother had been a great mother, you know. She provided a lot of happiness in our family because she was home, she couldWe had a lot of company for dinner, and had a lot of parties, and that sort of thing. You know, and our mothers, in bourgeois (??) were the ones that made the world go round for us. They took us swimming, in the summer time, you knowBC: And they were mostly, mostly stay at home, work with the family? WW: Yeah, oh yeah. And so when I was- Let me see, I was- I just had my youngest child was three years old when I went to work, but, it just become clear to us that, you know, we’re gonna have to have two wage earners in the family, so that’s why I went to work, and I didn’t even know Bristow needed anybody. They were friends of ours, and- So I was looking for jobs and somebody told him, and he called up, he said, ‘Why didn’t you tell me you were going to go to work?’ So I went to there, to work. But I never thought of having a career, you know. It just sort of grew into it. The water project really became my signature I guess, and uh, I[Interruption—someone stopping in to check on us in the common area] 0:42:29.4 WW: But, talking about neighborhoods- I think that Roanoke still has a ways to go with neighborhoods. I’m not sure- I think Grandin Road is just a super neighborhood. If every neighborhood could be like Grandin Road, I think we’d have the prettiest town in America, in the world, because it’s just got everything that you need, and uhBC: Are you talking like where the theater is, and the little Grandin Village? WW: Yeah, I’m thinking going into- And all the people live around us [at same time as BC], you know, are drawn to that. See, we lived there right after we sold our house. We lived at the apartments right there, on Grandin Road, across the road from the Post Office. BC: Um hum. I know exactly where you are talking about. 11 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: And my bedroom just stares, faces right onto Grandin Road. And early in the mornings, I’d watch the mothers and the fathers go out with the little babies- There was one woman that had twins and two dogs, on leashes, and how she did it I don’t know. Those were big dogs too. BC: (laughing) That’s quite an accomplishment! WW: Yeah it was. It was great. I think that good neighborhoods, good solid neighborhoods where people- I think people need to accept each other more easily. Even as I say that, I say, ‘You dummy, you can’t make people do anything,’ and you can’t, but that I think makes- More tolerant attitudes certain does bring more uh, an easier place to live for people. Expecting the best instead of expecting the worst, I think, is really important, and uh, 0:44:15.2 being and feeling safe. See I always felt safe in Roanoke. Until, I didn’t feel so safe. We went through a period here, where people were having break-ins in their houses, and I tell you, I- We got this beautiful silver service from my husband’s family when we got married. I was so proud of it, I would hide it in the garbage can under the garbage, wrap it up and everything, I’d put it under the garbage when I’d go out of town because I’d just afraid somebody would break in there, cause we had it in our neighborhood, we had a number of break-ins like that. Cars would come at night, you know, after dark, and they’d just have a good entrance to the back of a house and they’d just go ahead into the house. BC: Oh my gosh. WW: It was terrible. And that really- It’s, it’s scary. Cause I- And I didn’t like feeling that way. In Bridgewater we had one policeman over the years. BC: (chuckling) That’s a little different experience. WW: Well, and we used to, as teenagers, you know, we would, on Sunday afternoons, when after where we could ride in cars, we’d ride, we’d ride down to see Mr.- Can’t remember his name. We’d see the policeman and then we’d take off and then we’d go faster and he would try to, he would chase us. I think he probably had as much fun as we did. BC: (laughs) WW: So that was my idea of a police, you know. So, I didn’t like living where I felt that you needed a policeman. But of course you do. When I moved to Roanoke, my sister and her husband were very good friends of MacDash/MacNash (??) and his wife and he was one of the policemen on the force then. So, that helped me with the policemen. BC: You get to know ‘em, a little personal faceWW: Um hmm. I think neighborhoods, good neighborhoods, though, are the key to sanity in the world. I really do. 0:46:12.3 BC: What were the best parts about yours? WW: Oh my. BC: I meanWW: After you’ve grown up, my- Well, I’ve written about a hundred pages of my memories. BC: Oh wow. WW: Because I just think that my children, my grand children, need to know- It’s like Camelot, it really is. BC: Now you mean, kind of then and now? Is that what you mean ‘It’s like Camelot’? WW: Well, yeah. I mean- Camelot was supposed to be perfect, the ideal place and I swear to you, where it only rained at midnight, you know, and that sort of stuff. I think that Bridgewater was that way and when I, when I’d written [clears throat] I deliberately left out [clears throat] the fact that I could, you know, when some of the fathers were alcoholics. I didn’t put that in because this- I wrote it from the standpoint of a child, whatever age I was, whatever I knew. Now, when I finish it, I will 12 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 know those things, see, but that’s later on, but- The best parts to me were my friends, the families, my neighborhood, and Bridgewater was a wonderful town because, the- You know, during the Depression there were a lot of people who had, didn’t have work. My daddy was a US Forest Service. He was a ranger. And he was a wonderful man. And he and my mother were very good influences in the town but they were one of about, I’d say, at least 20 families that I can think of who were- You know, some of those families that had a really hard time financially, see at least my daddy got a paycheck every week, or every month or whatever it was. [clears throat] And he wasn’t afraid of being fired, losin’ his job. That made a big difference, but uh, mother and daddy, and I’d say at least eight women. My mother and about eight other women- Now I’m not sure who they all were, during those years, like I had two friends from families that, well the one family had six children and the father was a college graduate and he made $12 a week in the, as a parts manager of the local car dealership. [clears throat] So my mother sewed, she’d go to Harrisonburg to get material for me for a skirt or dress or whatever. She’d get similar material, but never the same, for one of my friends in that family and she’d make us both- I remember, I think, we had these pleated skirts. And mother would make ‘em, and then we, what we did was, we’d share ‘em, you know- Some days, some nights, Francis would- She’d have some and I’d have the others. So they did that. They just made sure that- And it was always very quiet, see, and I wouldn’t, I didn’t even, wadn’t even aware of it until after I was grown, you know, what they were doing. [coughs] 0:49:12.3 WW: One of the women, Mrs. Allen (??), whose husband was from a wealthy Boston family, she’d take the kids up there- Well her children would go up there in the summer and they’d go to camp and things like that. Then she’d go up the last two weeks of August, and she would go shopping. She’d shop for their winter clothes, and I didn’t know it until one time I just happened to be at the people’s house, you know, the man I was telling you about. She gave us all these boxes from Filene’s in Boston. She’d bought winter coats for all of us kids. She bought one nice dress, you know. BC: Wow, so just everybody taking care of their neighbors and friends. WW: Um hum, um hum. It really- And that- She- I never- She never said that. Mother may have known, I don’t know if she ever did. I didn’t tell anybody. I just- I wasn’t told not to, I just thought, you know, I knew I shouldn’t, and- I mean it really- I tell you, people made fun of Hilary Clinton’s, you know, ‘it takes a village,’ but it’s the truth. That’s what it took. Oh, like- Mrs.- oh. She was the darlingest little woman. Mrs.- Mrs. Mattie Loudon (??) She lived on Main Street of Bridgewater and she did these little pen and inks. She did calling cards and wedding invitations and that sort of thing. And she also did some trays for wedding presents and she’d sit there and do it and we would go call on her. I was a little girl, you know, there in Bridgewater- And in a lot of small town America- They [the women] might work like dogs in the morning, but in the afternoons they’d take a bath and they’d get changed and they’d go put their hats and gloves on, and they’d go calling. And so mother would take me because I was the youngest and that she couldn’t leave me at home by myself. And she’d put this, this colored, big, big, big ribbon in my hair right here. And do it like this. Uh, I hated that, but I loved to go calling, though, cause I could just sit quietly and just listen. It was wonderful. I know when she took me to Mrs. Mattie’s, Mrs. Mattie was the sweetest woman and she really was, I mean she was so sweet and quiet, God you can’t imagine woman being like that anymore. And- Anyway, there were a number of people who lived on Main St in Bridgewater. Well anytime any of us did anything that happened on Main Street where most of our interaction did, our mothers got a phone call from one of these women. They’d say, ‘Mrs. Casey (??), I just saw Wilma Jean do something I never thought I’d see her do,’ you know. That’s- See, they were always nice about it. 0:51:35.6 BC: That’s a big family watching over you. [chuckling] 13 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: It was! It was. I played hooky one day in my whole life, cause I just- I liked school so much, and then finally my friend said you’ve gotta play hooky. So we decided we would stay out one day and we’d go stay at this girl’s house who lived on Main Street. Now wadn’t that a dumb thing for us to do? We couldn’tBC: [interrupting] It was smart at the time, right? (laughing) WW: It was dumb! We couldn’t get out! We had to stay in that house cause somebody’d see us, till 3 ‘o clock in the afternoon. It was the dumbest thing I ever did. And then my sister who taught in school, she taught in the high school, she said to me, she said, ‘Wilma Jean,’ said, ‘Where were you today?’ at dinner. We were all at the table. I said, ‘I was at school.’ She said, ‘No you weren’t.’ That was it, see, so I got caught. I thought I had not gotten caught, but I got caught. BC: (chuckles) WW: I think feeling that- I don’t know how other people feel, all I know is my own experience . Now in Bridgewater, we used to say if you didn’t grow up in Bridgewater, you didn’t grow up, that’s what we’d tell other people. But I think that there was a protection and a pride- See all these people, they were proud, proud of all us, too, and it wasn’t just their child, you know, they didn’t pit us against each other like I see a lot of parents do. BC: I was gonna ask if you had, if you felt a competition, sort of, um, which is what I’ve experienced some in a lot of ways. WW: [at same time] uh uh, uh uh. No. Nuh uh. And I don’t think my mother and daddy were any different. I think the Brethren Church had a influence. All the churches that- We used to say that there more churches than people in Bridgewater. And there were. I think the churches had a big influence, but I also think- See, during the war years, there, we had conscientious objectors at the college. We had just a little bit of everything, and one of the guys that was a conscientious [stumbles on word] objector, he was one of the greatest guys- He was the most popular kid ever to grow up in Bridgewater, and when he was in college, you know, he just- I remember, he really worried about it. He sweat over it. He just felt his conscious- He had to do it, but he had people who just really refused to wait on him in stores and things like that. BC: And this was in World War II, right? 0:53:52.7 WW: Yeah, um hum. And my daddy was so mad when he heard that, he said, ‘What do these people think they’re fighting a war for?’ and you know, he says, ‘To stop that kind of stuff.’ He said, “If Myron (??)-’, you know, he said- We knew him well enough to know. He would of, he would much prefer not to have been a conscientious objector, but he was. And he was, and he was. And so, those are the things I think about Bridgewater being so good for me. Experiences that I had, that lot of my contemporaries really didn’t have. SoBC: Now is this a lot of the, the memories that you’ve written down about? WW: Oh yeah, oh yeah. BC: How- What’s um- What’s your, your motivation? I’m just curious. You mentioned something about you think it’s important for yourWW: Yeah, I think my- WellBC: -your children. WW: I just- My daddy was a great storyteller. He was from Arkansas. So I remember as a child hearing him tell all the stories about his growing up in the Ozarks. Funny, you know, also wonderful stories and, and wonderful people. And cause the pictures of there looked awful, you know, they were- Well, they looked like pioneers and that’s what they were, but- And other people like some of my friends in Bridgewater, you know, had very patrician looking families. Well mine weren’t like that, they were Irish and they were good pioneers. But, uh, anyway, I think that uh, [pause] What was I talking about? See, I’m14 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 055:29.0 BC: I’d asked you why you feel it’s important to kind of preserve these memories. WW: It is. Because like- I was not in it. My daddy and his brother wrote a family history over the years. And I thought it was kind of cute you know, nice, and I read it as a progressive- It wasn’t till I was about 30 I guess before I really appreciated it, and I think that my children are that way, and see my grandchildren, they are coming along. I think the day’ll come when they’ll sit with us- But I’ve written- Every one of them won’t, probably, but some of ‘em will. And they’ll be preserved and they’ll say, ‘Listen, I remember-’ You know, like- Every time a airplane went over Bridgewater, everybody in town looked but us, had to see the airplane. BC: Really? WW: Oh yeah. BC: Because it was so infrequent? WW: Yeah. AndBC: Huh. And now it’s everyday. WW: Yeah. And see my dad, he- God, and then-(??) They had barnstormers that came around, and I remember once I was 5 years old and Daddy- It was after church, after we’d eaten lunch on Sunday, and Daddy said, ‘Wilma Jean, how would you like to go see the barnstormers?’ I didn’t know what they were, but I said, ‘I’d like to go,’ so he and Mother and I went out to the country, outside- It’s right outside of Bridgewater, till we were on a farm, a farmer’s big field, and there were lots of cars around and there was a airplane, one airplane. And the man was dressed just like Charles Lindberg’s pictures. I thought it was Lindberg, I really did. And so we went out there and he- The plane came down about the time we got out of the car, and he got out- I don’t remember what he looked like, but I thought he was handsome, you know…you know, in the chopper (??) pants and the leather and the leather cap. And so we watched him two or three times, they came and went, and came and went and Daddy looked down at me once and he put his hat on my head and he said, ‘Wilma Jean,’ he said, ‘How would you like to ride in that airplane?’ I said- I had never dreamed- $5 was a lot of money. Was then. And so I said, ‘I’d like it.’ I thought I would, of course I was scared to death, but I did it. (laughing) I didn’t ride in an airplane again for a long time! BC: But you did there, huh? WW: Oh, I did there. And I loved- I just thought it was the most exciting thing in the world because Charles Lindberg was taking me up in the airplane (shared laughter). I went to school the next day and told my friend, you know, I was in kindergarten, and I told- I said, ‘I went riding in an airplane with Charles Lindberg.’ I don’t know if they believed me or not. I never even thought to ask them after I realized what I’d done. But anyway, you know, that was the kind of thing that just, that’s- It’s hard for kids now, and for you, to probably imagine a world like that. BC: It is. 057:56.2 WW: And yet, it was so interesting, like we had a, we had a Victrola. We danced to a Victrola. Oh God it was terrible, but you know (imitates the sound of the Victrola)… BC: Was that the one with the big, um- [referring to a horn] WW: No, ours didn’t. It was just one generation ahead of thatBC: Ok. WW: -after that. Yeah, it was, but it was square, oak, ugly- We thought it looked beautiful and you know, we thought it was. And people would- Yeah, my brothers and sisters, they’d holler around to people’s houses, see, cause we had dances in our home. BC: Oh, ok. WW: Yeah. And that was fun. When we’d have a dance, I could invite my friends to come and we’d dance and then the older boys would dance with the girls and we’d wear little evening dresses, so15 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 See, see that’s the kind of thing our mothers did, they made life wonderful for us, in this little town. Oh, they thought when we started dancing we needed a teacher. Well they didn’t know that we could already do the dances, you know. And so they hired this man from Harrisonburg, I’ll never forget him, he was a- Nobody wanted to go to his dancing lessons and that didn’t last long. I was happy for that. But I took art lessons from a woman whose, who uh, later taught, she was the art professor at Madison College. Her husband was the Postmaster in Bridgewater and she- You know, just things like that that I had, I had so many advantages that you just can’t imagine a kid in a little town like Bridgewater having all the advantage. Oh, at Bridgewater, at Bridgewater College, see, they had Cole Hall and they had all kinds of wonderful programs there. For instance, did you ever hear of, the uh, wait a minute, the Fitz- (trying to remember by trying different pronunciations) The Black school in Tennessee, they had these wonderful, they had singers, what is it? What is it called? Anyway, well they were famous, all over the world. They became this wonderful Black chorus that sang 0:59:53 all over the world and to raise money for their college. And they got too uppity apparently, because some of the locals, at one time, they burned down their, one of their building. Terrible. But anyway, I remember going to that, my mother was President of the Woman’s Club. See they had a Woman’s Club and the Woman’s Club, they just did everything. And that’s the way they raised money for the cafeteria at our school. And uh, …, Julie- FitzJulie/Fitztruly (??) Singers. You can look ‘em up in theBC: FitzJulie (??) Singers. WW: Um, yeah. They’re on theBC: Are they still around? WW: No, no. Yeah, but they’re on, they’re on the internet. I’ve had- Oh- The CCC! See, my daddy was with the Forest Service which was in charge of the CCC camps in our area. It was CCCSome areas the Forest Service was in charge of it, and some areas the State Forest Service was, and other people, but in the George Washington [National Forest] my daddy was in charge of all the CCC camps, and that was a wonderful experience, because- I mean for me, for a kid- Well the man who was in charge of it in the summer time was Mr. Hopper (??) who was my Dad’s Assistant Ranger. And he, they had some nights where they invited me up there for two weeks to stay, well you know, that’s a really- Because those men were wonderful, they just couldn’t find work. And they were so nice to us, and, and let- They pitched horseshoes at night, I remember, it was just wonderful. But I would never have appreciated it. I think one of the reasons I really remember the Depression so well was because of that, and the other thing was that the men there would call Daddy on Friday nights and Saturdays and Sundays they’d get so homesick. And they’d call Daddy and they’d cry on the phone, you know, they’d say, ‘Oh Mr. Casey (??) I’m so, so homesick.’ And Daddy never once, I never heard him say, ‘I wish they’d leave me alone.’ And he’d sit for hours and talk to ‘em on the phone. And they built, though. They built Home Quarry (??), they built Skyline Drive, they built all, theyBC: Blue Ridge Parkway WW: Did you- Yeah. Did you, uh, ever go to the one that, to that huge snow thing in Washington State? It’s a snow, you know, it’s a big snow lodge. BC: Ok. 1:02:18.7 WW: It’s four stories and I was there once, I was an adult then, but it’s on that loop, you know, that goes around, uhBC: Is it Mt. Rainier? WW: Oregon. Oregon. Mt., Mt. Rainier is Oregon- Seattle- It’s Mt. Hood. BC: Oh, oh. Ok. 16 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: Mt. Hood. Mt. Hood. Anyway, the CCC built that. And, so in my writing I had to do research. Well, for instance, I remember for sure that my Daddy- I knew Daddy was at the dedication, see, Camp Shenandoah which was the one up near Shenandoah Virginia. That was the, number one, the first CCC camp to be opened. And Franklin Roosevelt came and he made the speech and Daddy was there. Well, when I started writing it, I thought, you know, I don’t want to write this without making sure it really happened. So I got in touch with the librarian at the Library of Congress and I told ‘em, I emailed, I told ‘em what I was looking for, she emailed me the nicest email back, she gave me all kinds of websites, and she said, ‘Indeed you, you’re right. And your Daddy was there, probably no doubt because-’ But she gave me some of the stuff that he said that day, according, including, he said to the men, he always said that, ‘The CCC was the best program he ever started.’ She said that day, when he spoke to them, he speaks, says he starts out by saying, ‘My boys.’ …So anyway, that was wonderful. So I researched a lot of this stuff, because I didn’t want- I thought, ‘God, I’d-’ You know, in the first place you can’t trust your memory. BC: It does funny things. (chuckles) WW: I swear. Don’t tell me, I know, I wasBC: (chuckling) I’m learning. WW: I said, ‘I swear I remember so and so.’ I might remember but it wadn’t that the way it was, but most of these stories I was able to track back, and have- The other thing I’ve got in here, though, like for instance, the- Well, we had an- Our gang, in our neighborhood, on our street, Broad Street Gang. And every other kid in town wanted to be a part of that gang, and so they’d gradually let some of them in, you know, but- The boys were pretty much the ring leaders and my brother Harry, he was wonderful. Harry was five years older than I. He was the youngest, next-youngest though, to me. And he was such a popular kid. He was so popular. Because he just liked everybody, you know, he didn’t- I don’t know what his secret was, but I can remember that I’d follow along Harry and his gang, and sometimes that, you know, I’d get up close to them, and one of his friends would say, ‘Harry, send Cas- Send Angel home.’ That’s what they called me. And he said, ‘Send Angel home,’ because I was such a little devil. And Harry said, ‘She stays.’ And I stayed, you know. So there were those kind of things that I remember that I’ve written about, and uh1:05:07.9 WW: Anyway, every year they had a great apple battle, and it was right in the lot between our house and the village, like three lots, it was a big field and uh- For months, not months, but weeks ahead of time- They’d have it about the first of, oh, second weekend in August. Then the apples’d begin to be on the ground and, cause this was formally an apple orchard, so there was still a lot of trees there. It wadn’t an orchard, but there was a lot of apple trees, so they’d choose sides by, you know, with a baseball bat, and you know how they used to, and who’s on who’s team, and so then they’d spend weeks collecting apples off the ground and makin’ sling shots out of branches and limbs out of a rubber, inner rubber tubes. That’s what they’d do, and then the day of the great battle was wonderful. BC: (chuckles) WW: I tell you, when you read about battles of war, you know, that’s- I always think about it. Cause that’s the way it was, and we were so little they wouldn’t let us play, but- We’d have one of the, one of the outhouses in our yard, we could see- We could go in there and look out the window and watch the teams. And of course we’d always be for the team, whoever it was that was on our side of the house, and uh- Anyway, it was so wonderful. Nobody ever got hurt, nobody ever got hit with an apple that I remember, and yet, I mean, it was an all day ordeal. Hot. It’d be hot, I remember that. And do you know, I said, and the one thing I wrote at the end of that, I said, ‘You know, wouldn’t it be wonderful if humans could settle their differences with apple battles rather than bombs.’ I swear. It just seems so simple to me, and have a lot more fun. BC: Oh, much. 17 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: It was wonderful. BC: Much. (chuckles) 1:06:53.6 WW: But, see, there was so much of that kind of stuff goin’. It was a very creative kind of a community, and the one reason I know, I mean I know it was but, I’ve been amazed at how well some of the kids have done, you know, like one of them was a- Well, one was the president of a phone company up in New England, one of them was the Dean of the School of Architecture at University of Virginia. Um, one was a, oh, a lot of doctors, a lot of teachers, a lot of- I’m just trying to think ofYou wouldn’t think a little town like that would produce this many leader, leaders. There were a lot of leaders. And uh, I…I just know it was really a special environment. Maybe it wasn’t. Maybe a lot of people could write the same storiesBC: But it was for you. WW: For me it was. BC: And that’s important. WW: It really was. BC: What kind of um- Did you write about anything from your time here in Roanoke, or was it mostly about your childhood? WW: I haven’t gotten to that, see, I- Actually I planned a …(??) to quit these stories at the end of World War II, the night the war was over, I remember that so well. Oh lord. Everybody I knew went to Harrisonburg and we all rode in cars round and around and around. Tootin’, hootin’. It was really something. Umm. Umm. I also remember VE day. It was terrible. BC: VE day? 1:08:22.4 WW: It’s the, VJ day, V- V- No. VE was the invasion of Europe. BC: Ok. WW: That was, that was VE day. Yeah. Oh yeah, that morning see, we didn’t know it when we left the house, but by the time we got to Harrisonburg that morning, it was out that, you know, that we had invaded Europe. France. And all the churches in town had, you know, had their uh, bells ringing. It was very somber, it was terrible. BC: Do you mean for the big amphibious invasion? WW: Yeah. BC: D Day? WW: Oh yeah, D day. D day. Um hmm. V day, VE day was the day the war was over, that’s it. BC: Ok. WW: In Europe. D day. And see those guys in Harrisonburg were in the same big unit that those Bedford guys were. BC: Oh wow. WW: Yeah, but it was- I always forget it. BC: I don’t remember which one, but it was something unbelievable. Twenty-some folks died from Bedford. WW: That was just from Bedford BC: Yeah. That was- Yeah. WW: Harrisonburg had some, but nothing like- I mean everybody knew that Bedford had the worst, and uh, I never did understand why. I’m sure there’s a reason why so many of them were concentrated. Although those boys were the main, I mean, with those from that group of ‘em from Harrisonburg, New Market, up that way, not to Richmond- This side of the mountain I bet, east of the, west of the Blue Ridge. That’s where it was. The big division. That was a hard time. But you know, the war itself was not really that- That sounds so trite, but it’s true. It wasn’t really that hard on us at 18 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 home because I realize now we were really shielded. We were shielded by where the battles were but we were shielded by- Like when the guys came back, I don’t remember any of them telling us about it. They would- Now, we’d go to parties or they’d get together and if I say they didn’t (??), they’d get sort of in a little group and they’d tell each other war stories. They never did tell us. And I didn’t even think to ask ‘em, you know, I just thought- I thought about it, but I thought, well, you know, if they want to tell it, they will. It was really, uh, but there’s some really brave guys out from there. Leon Garver (??) was a, he was a captain in the Marines and he was a detonator. In the Pacific. He got a silver- No, what’s the one bigger than a Silver Star? The next level? BC: Was it the Medal of Honor? WW: No, no, he didn’t get that, but the one right below that. BC: I don’t know what the levels are on that. WW: I don’t either, but I- Anyway, he was- Now there were a right many of ‘em- I knew a guy here in Roanoke who got a Silver Star. He, he was dropped behind the lines in Germany. He got caught- He and just about five other guys, they were in a barn for I don’t know how many days before they could get away and get back to their unit, but- It wadn’t any Sunday School picnic, but you see, we didn’t see it on the television. BC: Not every day. 1:11:27.3 WW: But I tell you what we did do, though, we used to sit at night and listen to the radio. I can remember so well, Daddy and Mother had, you know one of these stand up ones, but I don’t know why, I think it didn’t have as good a reception as one of the later little, littler radio, because I can remember that little radio in that living room. We’d all sit around sometimes in the dark listening to the news. I can remember my Daddy just- Sometimes he’d be just- Oh, during the Battle of the Bulge, just grave. And one of the boys in my book died in the Battle of the Bulge. He was- He had all kinds of promise. He was one of the most promising kids that ever grew up there. BC: Oh man. WW: He, he went into a building filled with armaments and blew it up and blew himself up too. Saved God knows how many others’ lives, but, you just can’t think about somebody you knew so well. He was my brother’s best friend. I remember when his letter came back. Things like that, you know, that- It’s not bragging, you just remember and you just realize, that’s a world so foreign to what my children knew, and what, what my grandchildren know. We didn’t have any of the electronic stuff. We had radio, of course. BC: Speaking of electronics, like the recorder and… WW: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But oh lord, but they had these awful- What was it? Tape, it wasn’t tapes. What was it? What was the first recorder? BC: Was it like an 8 track? WW: Uh? BC: 8 track? OrWW: No, I’m just thinking about what was the first thing that was used to- Uh, it was film, wadn’t it? It was like on film, used to record people’s voices. BC: I think it was a- Was it a small little cassette recorder? WW: I guess it was, yeah. BC: maybe. WW: I don’t know. It was terrible. (laughs) You would never get it to work. BC: Yeah. 1:13:24.6 WW: I don’t know if I’ve told you a single (??) thing that you really needed, but I don’t know, but it’s fun. 19 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 BC: It is fun. (laughs) And you have told me a lot. And who knows, we might have to do it again sometime? WW: I’d like it. BC: Yeah. Cause we’re probably at about that wrap up timeWW: yeah, I think so. BC: -I mean I don’t want to get you to the point that you’re so tired you don’t want to talk to us anymore. (laughs) WW: No, not that. It’s just uh, I think it’s just sort of, you know, I talked out. BC: Uh huh. I understand. Well I thank you very much for your time today WilmaWW: Oh I really love itBC: This has been great. WW: But you know, anybody likes to talk about their childhood. BC: It’s fun too, listening to you, because, growing up in Bridgewater, and living in Richmond, and then living here, I mean you really got the rural, the urban, and the kind of in between, and now it’s more of the urban, but then, from what you’re saying it was more the rural. WW: Oh, but Roanoke? BC: Yeah. WW: Roanoke is like a big town, it’s just, out grown, you know, not outgrown, but just grew and grew and grew. Roanoke has never had the feel of a city, to me. Even Richmond, even Richmond wasn’t really a city like, like Washington and New York, but still and all, but- See Richmond just went bad. Well, it just allowed the downtown to just become all Black, and all, and stayed sort of like, ‘Just get there behind that line, kids, and shut up.’ And of course they didn’t, they just acted out all the time. And so. Roanoke- The policemen here were different. I can remember Mac Nash (??), and this was a white friend of ours, who was, he just had a terrible drinking problem. It used to just kind of, I don’t know if he was spoiled or what, but he was a real cute kid, you know. He was always into trouble. And I remember Mac (??), uh- I’ve forgotten where they were, cause this kid was, let me see, he was- He was younger than my husband, but he was you know, of that generation, and he was someplace and Mac, someplace in this area, and Mac told him, ‘You go home.’ And the kid said, ‘I can’t walk.’ And so Mac put him in his car, police car, took him home, took him in to his mother and told her, you know, he was drunk and said he’s afraid he’d get hurt. Instead of just ‘clap’, putting him in the slammer, you know. That kid, though, that kid, he died anyway. And he was- He went into the Navy and he- I mean, this- You just can’t imagine what he- This was the kind of kid he was, he was on one of the boats, you know, one of the boats that you get on to get into a big boat and his boat was leaving. He was going to miss his boat, you know, he had went AWOL. And so he was in such a rush that he tried to jump from one boat to the other and he didn’t, and he missed it, and he went down, and the boats….[crushed him??] BC: Oh man. 1:16:21.6 WW: Yeah, I mean, he just- I hate to laugh, but you know you could’ve just seen his future. Like Leonard Keaton (??), there’s just some people, some kids you know are just never going to do it. It’s, it’s so hard. BC: But, as your life demonstrates, you keep trying, andWW: That’s right. BC: -hopefully there’s a lot of ‘emWW: That’s all there is to doBC: that still make it. WW: Nothing else to do. You can either do it or turn your back, andBC: That’s a lot harder. 20 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 WW: It’s awful. I just can’t. I don’t know, I try not to judge anything or anybody, cause you know, you can’t compare lives, but I just cain’t imagine living a life here if I wasn’t engaged. You know, I just think it’s- That’s what life is to me, is to be engaged. BC: And that, um, very adequately describes why you’re so interested in neighborhoods. (chuckles) WW: Uh huh. I am, I am, I am. I’m interested in, I’m really interested in Roanoke. I really hope and pray that Roanoke’s school systems will end up, the parents and everybody, I really feel that that’s where the big undone work is still to be done, and I don’t know how to, you know, it’s just such a big job because I know from experience the only way change brings, comes about, is from person to person. I don’t know of anybody in this world whose overcome anything that didn’t, couldn’t say it was because of Mr. So-and-o and Mrs. So-and-so, and my Daddy or my Mother. You know, and I just think1:18:04.8 [interruption by someone coming into room asking for her cigarettes] 1:18:20.0 WW: You know what I’m talking about? I’m just- And sometimes I get into trouble at TAP with the Blacks, you know, because I’d say that. I’d say, ‘Look. Look. The system can only do so much and-’ I used to say, ‘You’ve got to-’ I said, ‘Not just Blacks’, but I said ‘All poor people have got to learn they’ve got it within themselves to really, if they get together, to just, to get what they needed.’ I mean I really think that’s true. BC: And then they gave you a hard time for that every once in a while? WW: Oh, yeah, sometimes, yeah. They’d say, ‘You don’t know what it’s like.’ And I’d say, ‘No I don’t, but I also know, I know what it takes.’ I know what, I know what my parents meant to me and I can’t imagine you know, being anything, feeling like I could do anything if it hadn’t been for them. See that’s the other thing is, people just, all you need to do is just know that you are as important as anybody else. And you just have to speak up and you have to say what you think is right. I don’t know. Anyway. BC: All those life, life lessons, right. (chuckles) WW: Right, right. BC: Well, Wilma, thank you very much. WW: You’re welcome. I’m very, so glad to get to know you. BC: It’s been a pleasure. WW: And you are a- What year are- You’re doing graduate work, you said. BC: I am. I’m, it’sWW: Where’d you grow up? BC: I grew up in Bedford. WW: Did ya? Oh Bedford’s a good place. BC: And lived there, I was born in Baltimore, but then pretty quick after that moved to Bedford, my folks did, and then I lived there through high school, then left for a year, came back and went to Roanoke College for, so I lived in SalemWW: It’s a good school. BC: Um hmm, very good school. And then I lived in Covington for a year with a jobWW: Did you? BC: and then I moved to Richmond for about a year and a half, andWW: What’d you do in Covington? BC: I worked for the Health Department. WW: Cause my, brother, my brother Harry that I loved so much, he died when he was 27 (??), he lived in Covington. He had four children, had a one time only heart attack, and died when he was 37 21 �Wilma Warren Neighborhood Oral History Interview 9/17/07 (??), but he, now, he really made a mark though. The ball- The athletic field in Covington is named after him, Casey Field. BC: Oh yeah. WW: Um hmm. Now I remember that, when we went over there for that dedication, and- yeah, we could not understand how Harry could live in Covington and like it after he’d lived in Bridgewater, but he did, he loved it, he loved the people. BC: It’s good people out there. Well it’s, same as anywhere, my wife complains about the way the paper mill smells, Mead Westvaco, and then I said, ‘But there’s good people.’ (chuckles) WW: I know, that’s right. There is. Otherwise, it would have died years ago. I sometimes I used to tell Bobby, his wife, I’d say, ‘The reason they’re good people is the only way you can keep people here is by being good to people because nobody else would stay.’ BC: (chuckles) Might be some truth to that. WW: People who live there say they don’t smell it though usually unless the wind’s blowing the wrong way. BC: Yeah, and unless it’s a real bad day. I grew to not really notice it that much, as well. Well let me turn this…. [end of interview] 22 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2667/WarrenWilma.1.jpg 11a7b1097cc0b15057a606fc2d84d065 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Wilma Warren Subject The topic of the resource Grandin Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Wilma Warren Interviewer: Brian Clark Date: 17 September 2007 Location: Our Lady of the Valley Total Duration: 1:21:30 Transcription prepared by: Brian Clark Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 17 September 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilma Casey Warren; Brian Clark Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WarrenWilma https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/McGeorge_Marie.1.mp3 5b6db6e13bd5d4567ebd815374986976 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/McGeorgeMarie.jpg 3bfe9d34e8f9bf2d1c46cca1bb49dff8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_1.1_Program_of_events_BV.JPG 940e858a37657d251f7dfc1732ea37d7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_1.2_Program_of_events_BV.JPG f5b4b22dce5e7a07ac44ffe5f3da206d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_2.0_Akers.JPG 88562e688431aa4af51b0f7f017ec203 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_3.0_Akers_honor_party.JPG 9820af038754900cbff7d7c09531092d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_4.0_Ms._Roanoke_party_n.d..JPG 0c2ee9b5a8a86fb280df44bb18458a3f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_5.0_Ms._Roanoke_and_court.JPG 035ead70b6e90e2ad8aa1051df2da1f6 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_6.0_P_R_employees_n.d..JPG 1b25150067410a4f2cf2ac31622a617f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_7.0_-_7.3_Valentines_dance.JPG 52ffe37ee40786ab8f3486dd2fddabc0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_8.0_Interior_shot_of_BV.JPG b77dd1c5b5a66f107ef28f01f20b9cec https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_9.0_P_R_bus_trip_to_WV.JPG 12352256e2eb319cdcba4eb6d59b2e10 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_10.0_Buena_Vista_front.JPG 0b2229549127a9aa044c5311fb7e0ee8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_11.0_Drawing_of_BV.JPG d0b44b254dd829e57e1bbcda135f6780 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_12.0_porch_on_BV.JPG 3840225c5648b281f510008c04f06576 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_13.0_McGeorge_at_BV.JPG 8db1c8213a697c78445129e28d092aac https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_14.0_Banquet_hall_addition.JPG ba8f30699bf511090b6c1dba388b8ca7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_15.0_McGeorge_in_front_of_BV.JPG a751bf8c05c8821f05a6e88bac73671f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_16.0_adult_programs_at_BV.JPG 3f0c4ce4825d89bf405cdbe22893e30d https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2666/MM_17.0_McGeorge_quilting.JPG 67ffa8a4592bf50f6fc36e542311d784 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Marie McGeorge Subject The topic of the resource Southeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Marie McGeorge Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 21 August 2007 Location: Jackson Park Branch Library Total Duration: 25:20 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 21 August 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marie Amos McGeorge; Kellie Thomas Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McGeorgeMarie https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2665/RogersWestley_[compressed].mp3 2586e6d435de1127fcb42c824537bca9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2665/Rogers_Westley_Oral_Histories.pdf 60f545258d905d2037e56eab5ff54a50 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Westley Rogers Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Transcriber: Dorian Meekins AO: My name is Arleen Ollie. Today is July 2nd, 2007 and I’m going to interview Westley Rogers and the interview is taking place in the Parrott Room of the Main Library, Downtown. WR: Good morning Ms. Ollie, how are you? AO: Just fine. When and where were you born? WR: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia; December 6th, 1944 at Burrell Memorial Hospital. AO: Okay and what streets have you lived on? WR: Oh, good question. I’ve lived on Loudon Ave., also known as High Street. I lived on Patton Ave, Northeast. I lived on Carver Ave, Northeast. And I presently– oh I also lived on McDowell Ave, Northwest and I presently live on Biltmore Drive, Northwest. AO: Tell me about your parents and siblings and if you had any extended family members living nearby? WR: During that time or now? AO: During that time. WR: Well my father was employed by Northwestern Railway, he was a waiter on the train. He was normally gone three to four days a week. His run was usually from Roanoke to Cincinnati and back. My mom was pretty much a housewife, but when she worked she worked with my grandmother who, during that time, ran the Northeast Nursery School, formerly known as I understand as Gilmer School– Well, I’m sorry, Gregory School. AO: Okay. WR: And I have three sisters. Two of whom attended Gilmer Elementary School with me. The other is 15 years younger than me so she came along a little later during different kind of times. I had a few uncles who lived near me. I think, with the exception of one on my mother and father’s side, I only had one aunt that lived in Roanoke at the time; Evelyn Rogers. And on my father’s side also, my uncle George Rogers lived here in Roanoke and that was it. His brother, who was my father Harry, eventually moved to Washington DC. His brother Richard moved to New York and his brother Charlie was in the service for some time, as a matter of fact he retired from the service. His sister Ruth also lived in and moved to Washington DC. On my mother’s side, the only person in Roanoke was my mother Jean Dupree Rogers and her brother James Dupree; her other brothers Willie Dupree, Albert Dupree, both of whom went to Howard University and eventually settled in Washington. And another brother John Dupree who attended Johnson C. Smith University and settled in Washington. Another brother, Thomas Dupree who went to Washington for many years, left Washington, moved to Connetticut, and is now back in Roanoke. And her only sister Ruth Dupree who left A&T University along with my mother and went to Washington and resided there until she became deceased about six, seven, eight years ago. AO: Okay, now which one of the Duprees was the internationally renowned singer? �WR: That was my uncle Willie Dupree. Actually that wasn’t his given name, his given name was Hezekiah Dupree named after his father’s father, but he did not like that name. So eventually he had it changed to William or Willie Dupree. William Cowell (??) Dupree is his name– was his name. AO: But he was born Hezekiah? WR: Yes, born Hezekiah. Raised in Roanoke, educated in the Roanoke school system, graduated from Addison– Booker T. at that time, Addison now. Went to Howard University and became known as one of the Singing Sergeants. For those of you who can remember, the Singing Sergeants, back in the days in the 50s and 60s, where the gentlemen that closed off the TV at night. When the television was going off they would sing the Lord’s prayer and the Singing Sergeants would sing that. AO: I also understand he acquired that fame by singing with the Air Force. WR: Yes, he stayed in the Air Force for a great number of years. As a matter of fact, he would go all over the country, all over the globe singing for different people in high positions. As a matter of fact, if I’m not mistaken, he had just come back from, I wanna say; Greece, Bulgaria, one of those places. He had gone there to sing for the king and queen and on the way back, he died in the airport. He had a heart attack in the airport. AO: What year was that? WR: Oh. See I need to do research on that. I can tell you it was around– Had to be in the 70s, around the mid 70s. Yes, it had to be in the mid 70s because at that time my grandmother, his mother, had not moved to Washington and they had the memorial at Howard University, the Howard University Chapel. So I know it was around that time. AO: Can place it in a frame. WR: Yes. I know it wasn’t in the 80s and I know it wasn’t in the 60s so it had to be– It was around the mid 70s. AO: Okay, that wouldn’t be hard to locate. WR: No, no. I know the– I was at the funeral, I know the graveyard where he was buried so, y’know, it would be easy to look up. AO: Okay, describe your house for us. Did you have a garden? WR: Yeah, my grandmother saw to it that we– We had a flower garden, not a garden. AO: Not a vegetable garden. WR: Not a vegetable garden. We had what I considered a flower garden and I guess with so many kids frumping in and out [of] our yard, it wouldn’t have been the best thing to have. AO: No. WR: But my grandmother had two great big flower gardens on each side of the steps leading up to our house that she worked on almost every day. AO: Did you help? WR: No I did not. Actually, to be honest, being the oldest grandchild and having four, and then later on when my youngest sister was born, five women in the house I really didn’t have to do anything. �AO: Shame on you. WR: Well I’m just calling it like it is. And of course I had siblings who resented that, but– AO: I’m sure. WR: That’s the way it was. Especially when they had make up my bed. AO: What? WR: Oh yeah. They had to clean my room, make up my bed. AO: It’s lucky you got this far in life. It truly is. WR: Lucky that that’s all we do is don’t speak. AO: Right. What kinds of activities did you participate in? Not house cleaning. WR: Now when are we talking? Are we talking early on? Are we talking junior high school? Are we talking high school? How far back are we going because there are different phases. AO: From the beginning time. WR: From the time– Well to be honest, early on, I ran with a group of gentlemen who– We all lived on the same street in a two block radius. Robert Lee Dickerson better known as “Cap”, Rufus Jackson, Luther Wilson, John Perkins better known as “Dough”, and there was one other; George Boyd who lived right next door to me. George Boyd lived on the left of me facing my house, Rufus Jackson lived on the right of me facing my house, and Bryon Morris lived three doors up the street from me facing my house. But we did everything that little kids would do at the time. We shot marbles, we played tag in the alleys, we did it all, we ran around between all of the buildings. Being on High Street, there was a lot of different scenarios going on up there and we, kind of like, was around all of it. But as time grew on, they began to become more interested in cars. As a matter of fact, I’ll never forget the morning they were in the alley messing with this old car, it might have been Rufus Jackson’s car if I remember correctly, and that’s when Cap as we know him today and back then had two of his fingers cut off from the fan in the car. AO: Oh God. WR: Sticking his hand down– AO: Down in the fan belt. WR: Yes, down in the fan belt, exactly. And, as I said, they began to have a great interest in cars and Rufus Jackson was always good with woodwork. He became a contractor, but even during those times he was always good with woodwork. He would go to Booker T. and come back home [with] things that looked like they were made in a store someplace. And at that time I became more interested in sports and in doing so I kind of branched off from them. Now, by the same token, during that time there was only one place for us to really gather and play games that the whole neighborhood would play and that’s at the YMCA, the Hunting (??) Branch YMCA. During that time I became a great ping pong player. Ping pong and pool where the main two games that you could play in there and everybody who came there was either good at one or the other. I, right now, consider myself the second best that ever came out of there. AO: Alright. �WR: Others around me, some say I was the best, but I happen to know within myself that Ted Calloway was the best ping pong player that ever came out of there. As a matter of fact, I ran into Ted a couple times since I’ve been back in town and he still plays today. AO: Wow. Do you? WR: No, I haven’t played in a while, but whenever I do play, my game is there when I have played. But when I was in college, I won a lot of money playing. AO: Really? WR: Yes because there were a lot of exchange students. A lot of them from Thailand, Africa; and they would come back to school with money wanting to play me because they knew I was the best. So I won a lot of money during that time and I won several tournaments. When I was in– Well I was in high school when I left here in the 9th grade, but when I went to Washington, the 9th grade was in junior high. So when I got to Washington there were a couple of playgrounds within walking distance from me where I always went to play basketball which, by then, was my game so to speak, but I never lost my love for ping pong. And, long story short, I won a district tournament just by walking in. I didn’t even know they were having a tournament and I asked the guy could I play. He said “Well this is a tournament, are you sure you wanna play?” I said yeah, I wanna play. I got in the tournament and I won for that playground. Then went into the next level which was several playgrounds and I won that. And then I went to went to almost what was considered the DC-wide tournament and I won that. So ping pong had been a big part of my life back then. AO: When you said sports I automatically thought basketball. Ping pong was probably the last thing I would have thought of. WR: Well, like I said, when you went to the Y– I mean everybody went to the Y everyday. When we left school we didn’t go home; we went to the Y and stayed ‘till the Y closed. Then we went home. Y’know, and when you go to the– AO: Who ran it? WR: Back during that time Mr. Keeling was the first one I can remember running it. Then after Mr. Keeling was Sammy Davis and then after Sammy Davis– I get them mixed up, either was Buster Keen and then Sammy Davis or it was Sammy Davis and then Buster Keen, but those were the three gentlemen who ran it during the time I was going to there. AO: That’s interesting. WR: And it’s ironic that– Not ironic, but it was great because these guys took an interest in us that– By us not spending that much time at home and a lot of us, our fathers had come and gone, they took a great deal of interest in us. I remember every year they had the father and son banquet every year and I never got to go with my father, but every year I was there. It was the thing to do back then. It was a joy to be a part of the Y back then because it was just so– They kept us going, they kept us doing something. Y’know, I played football for the Y, I played basketball on the Y’s basketball team, I played– They also had what was known back then as– What did they call it? I can’t remember the name of it now, but what would happen was the Ys �from each city in Virginia and North Carolina would meet up and have a sports festival in all of the different sports. And I never got to play in basketball, I always went for ping pong. AO: That’s really interesting. So when you were at the Y, where were your sisters? WR: I have no idea. They were probably at home. AO: Cleaning up your room. WR: Yeah, cleaning up– I’m sure they were home because they didn’t have the latitude that I had. AO: (hums sarcastically) WR: Y’know and even today to be honest, they are– Especially one of them, they– She never lets me forget the fact that I was the favorite. But there’s a lot of things she don’t know. AO: Well. WR: Well she don’t know how she got her prom dress, she don’t know how she got her class ring. See, but my grandmother and my mother know that I was a big part of that and that’s probably a lot of the reason why I was the favorite because after my grandfather died in 1960, I was the man in the house. AO: Right. And I think, too, as a sibling who is often accused of having been the favorite, what I think gets lost in the translation is that; you nor I nor any other child that’s the favorite had anything to do with that. WR: Exactly, exactly. AO: Y’know, if you’re gonna blame somebody– I don’t know who you’re supposed to blame, but no the individual that it happens to because there’s nothing that I could have done to change the situation in my family and I’m sure there’s nothing you could have done. WR: Nothing, nothing at all. I had that happen at a job one time. I was promoted to manager six months after getting the job and there had been a number of people there [that] had been there for years. When I got the job, I couldn’t control these guys and they confronted me one day, almost to the point where they wanted to fight and I had to tell them “Look, I didn’t appoint myself.” AO: Right. WR: And today, those same guys, we’re very good friends. AO: Well good. So at least they understood it. WR: Yes. AO: Families can be tough. WR: Families are tough. AO: Excuse me. Talk about your school life. For instance, where did you attend school? Did you walk to school? Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? WR: Oh, good question. The first school I attended was what I call Nursing School on Gregory Ave. What basically was a kindergarten for me. My grandmother ran it, my mother worked there, one of my friends Sherwood Kasey’s mother worked there, Mrs. Rudd worked there, Mrs. Patterson worked there, and Mrs. Henderson worked there. Those are the ones that I can remember off the top– As well as my aunt, Aunt __ (??) worked there. Again I had the run of the �mill because a lot of the kids would get angry with me because I didn’t have to take a nap when it was time to take a nap. AO: So your power extended from home to kindergarten. WR: All the time. AO: Okay. I’m curious, I’ve got to break in and as you; were you tall as a child? Or did this happen [as a] preteen years growth spurt? WR: It started happening when I was around 8th grade. I remember when I was in the 8th grade– Going into 8th grade I was about 5’8, 5’9. When I came out of the 9th grade I was 6’3. When I came out of the 10th grade I was 6’6 which is the height I am now. AO: Because I’m always curious when I see tall people because I stopped growing in 6th grade. Well, that’s not really true. I grew from probably 5 feet even to 5’4 and three quarter inches in the 6th grade and then three years ago I grew another inch. I’m not sure what that’s all about because growth should be over by then. WR: Well it’s odd because I guess I was never considered tall during that time because when we got to Booker T. there were about five guys in my class that were taller than me. AO: Really? WR: Oh yeah. George Lynch was one of them, Ray Young was one of them, Stick Daniels was one, Donald Tinsley was another, and there was one more I can’t think of. I couldn’t even make our class basketball team. AO: Wow. Stick Daniel? What was his first name? WR: Frank Daniels. Now I have not heard from him. When I moved to Washington in the 9th grade and came back to Roanoke in the 11th grade, Stick Daniels was nowhere around. I don’t know what happened to him. He lived in the projects. I think somebody told me he went in the service, but I have not seen him since then. AO: That’s interesting. I’ve never heard the name before. WR: Yeah, he was in our class. Stick Daniels, and we called him that because he was so tall and so skinny. AO: I didn’t think anybody in Roanoke was taller than you. WR: Oh yeah. AO: That’s interesting. How much schooling did you complete? Oh, excuse me. Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? WR: Never. I had to get out of the house, y’know, I had to get out of the house. As a matter of fact, if I’m not mistaken, I know I did, I think my sisters also did; when we moved to Washington we got certificates for not missing a day in school. AO: That’s great. WR: But back in those days it was fun to go to school. I never did complete the other question about all the schools I went to, I got as far as Gilmer I think. Then I went to Harrison, Booker T., Booker T– Addison. Also in Washington I went to MacFarland Junior High and Roosevelt High. But the only time I ever missed school was basically when I was really sick, not putting on. Because, normally speaking, you don’t go to school because number one; you can’t do the �lesson, that’s number one. I could do the lesson. Number two; you don’t go because you want to hang out with your friends, but all my friends were in school so there was no reason for me not to go to school. I like school, I always liked school. AO: That’s always a plus. WR: Yeah, it is. With anything. AO: It is. WR: A job, anything. AO: Did you walk to school? WR: I walked to school everyday. I walked from High Street– talking about high school. I walked from High Street to Addison everyday, over all of those hills, going up and down those hills on 5th Street everyday. And that was– It turned out to be a negative because my senior year I failed. I failed government from Mr. Honesty and the reason I failed was because he said when he saw me coming to school everyday because he took the same route I took, he never saw any books in my hands. And I didn’t tell him at the time and didn’t feel the need to explain to him; I was always considered to have a photographic mind and it wasn’t that I failed his tests. He told the class, he told the class, told me in front of the class, the reason he was failing me was because I was too smart to be graded on the curve like everybody else. So he kept me from graduating, [I] had to go to summer school. AO: Are you serious? WR: As witnessed by Ressy Clark, he reminds me of this all the time. AO: So much for– That’s one of the things I try to impress upon young parents as well as administration whenever I had the opportunity. Just because someone has a degree and is considered a teacher, doesn’t make them a good human being or a fair human being. I’ve been to too many schools in too many states to ever forget that and that’s a perfect example because I would have been outraged. That’s probably why I never had him, I never had him. And see I used to teach kids for his class because I had civics in Connecticut in junior high school which was the same thing that he was teaching. WR: Well I had civics in junior high school in Washington and I did very well with it, very well. Mr– His name started with a M. Mr. Monistat? I can’t think of his name, but he was my teacher. AO: Well that’s very interesting. How much schooling did you complete? WR: I went to– Well, let’s put it this way; in order for me to graduate from college, I needed 30 hours of practice teaching. AO: And you didn’t do it? WR: No, I didn’t go back. I had my second child during that time and I dropped out of school to take care of that child and I never went back. I take that back, I went back– I transferred. I had my transcript transferred to the University of the District of Columbia about two or three years later and tore the cartilage in my knee playing basketball, league basketball, and had to drop out from there and I never went back. AO: Do you ever plan to? �WR: At this point, I don’t see where it would do me any good. The only way it would do me good now is because it would be self serving more so than anything else. Y’know when I go to my college homecoming every year, it’s kind of tough sitting listening to the guys who got degrees saying that they graduated and I didn’t and I got almost as much time in as they did. But when I thought about it, when I first left college, the teachers in Washington, if I’m not mistaken, were making something like $5,000 a year. The job I had was making more than that so I didn’t feel a need to go back and get it at that time. Now I kinda feel it a little bit, but other than that it doesn’t bother me. I wish I had done for my mother and grandmother, but other than that it doesn’t bother me. AO: That’s good. Okay, the next one says “Describe your life at home.” Well we know you didn’t do anything. Did you gather around the radio in the evenings? WR: In the evenings and in the morning. My grandmother was an early riser. I lived in a house, like I said, with four women and my grandfather until my grandfather died and we had this radio, it was a floor standing radio and you could get stations from overseas and everywhere and my grandmother would have that on when I woke up in the morning and we would gather around it sometimes and listen to the news while we were back and forth getting breakfast and putting on our clothes, whatever. And that’s basically when we would have our family meetings, was during the mornings and on Saturday because in the late evenings I didn’t come home. Y’know, I very seldom– AO: You was at the Y. WR: Yeah I was at the Y or other places. We got in a lot of trouble during that time. We got in a lot– And I have to give it to people like Paul Adams and Mr. Fields and Mr. Taylor the truancy officer. They kept us out of jail. AO: Really? WR: Yeah, they kept us out. I remember one year, I was in the 6th grade and what we would do on Tuesdays nights after we left the Y, we would go down to the American Legion Auditorium where they had the wrestling matches. They used to have them every Tuesday night. AO: Where was that down at? WR: Right behind– At the end of Wells Ave, right behind Hotel Roanoke. AO: Okay. WR: As soon as you pass Hotel Roanoke going down Well, the end of the street on the next corner was American Legion Auditorium and the back of it faced the Viaduct was [what] we called it back then. What is it? It’s Williamson Road now I guess, or Commonwealth. AO: It’s not Commonwealth now. WR: Okay. Well the back of it– Remember when we was coming up, they built that street, we called it the Viaduct back then. AO: Yeah, it goes across Downtown. WR: Right, exactly. Well the back of the American Legion Auditorium faced that because there were years when they had the circus there and they’d have the elephants out back and we’d be �throwing rocks at the elephants and the guys would be saying “Don’t be throwing rocks at the elephants because the elephants can remember from one year to the next.” AO: Yes, yes. It would get you. WR: But anyway, we would go down to the American Legion Auditorium and climb up the wall and sneak into the wrestling matches. And then we got to the point where we would leave there and go to the Clover Creamery Downtown. It was right next to Elmwood Park and we would stand in each other’s hands and lift each other over the wall and this is dead winter. Dead winter and we’re stealing ice cream. AO: Because you had to have it. WR: Had to have it. It was too hot not to have it. But anyway, we got in a lot of trouble for that. We had to go to court for that. As a matter of fact, there was about ten of us and I think seven of us got put on probation. All of the people that I mentioned earlier; Donald Waller, Joe Boyd, and somebody else; they actually got time. They went to the Boy’s Reformatory and had it not been for Mr. Taylor and Mr. Adams– AO: Was it Luval or Duval? WR: Luval, some kind of– It started with an L. AO: Oh, Luvelle? WR: Something like that, yes. Him and Paul Adams and Mr. Fields. I would have been in that group, as well as– My grandfather who, to my estimation, now I don’t know, to my estimation or to my recollection, was the only African American during that time who had his own business Downtown, if I’m not mistaken. He was a barber, but yeah, he had his own business. AO: Okay, out of curiosity, did he inherit it from–? WR: Yes, Watts Barber Shop. AO: Okay. WR: Yes, exactly. AO: Where was it located? WR: Right behind the ‘ol Heironimus, right next door– On Kirk Ave, right next door to Fox Hunt and Loyd. AO: I don’t remember that name. WR: Well, it used to be a men’s clothes store, right on the corner of Kirk Ave and First Street called Fox Hunt and Loyd. It was there for years. If you go down Kird, there was a cab stand right there and then in front of the cab stand was the Watts Barber Shop. If you went in Heironimus– Well, you probably came to know it as Miller and Rhoads and Belk because that’s what the name changed to. AO: Oh, Heironimus, that’s right. It used to be– WR: On Jefferson Street. AO: Jefferson, yeah. WR: Not Jefferson, Campbell Ave. AO: Yeah, Campbell. It’s on Jefferson now. WR: It used to be on Campbell Ave. �AO: It had the back and side doors. WR: Exactly. You could come out the back door– when you come out the back door, Watts Barber Shop was straight in front of you, as well as– There was a cab stand right there. AO: Now I don’t remember the cab stand. WR: Yeah, it was a cab stand. You could go there and catch a cab. It’s gon’ be a cab parked there any time of the day. Just the cab’s parked there, wasn’t no building there or nothing. AO: Right, they just stood there for business purposes. WR: Yeah, but my grandfather, the point I was alluding to earlier, cut Judge Beverly Fitzpatrick’s hair. And, y’know, my grandmother put a bug in my grandfather’s ear and my grandfather put a bug in Judge Fitzpatrick’s ear and that’s probably what kept me from, as we called it at the time, going down the road. AO: Where was it? Was it still down 460 like it is today, the Reformatory? WR: Oh no, this was further away. This was called Hanover. AO: Hanover County. WR: Hanover County. AO: Oh, okay. WR: That was a boys reformatory back then, it was in Hanover. As a matter of fact, I have a picture at home of my grandfather cutting Beverly Fitzpatrick today’s hair, when he was a kid and his father standing next to him and it’s inscribed on the picture that my grandfather is cutting the third generation of hair of Fitzpatricks. AO: That’s fantastic. WR: Now he probably, he may not even– Mr. Fitzpatrick probably doesn’t even know that, doesn’t even know about this picture. AO: You may have to let me have a shot of that for my book. Because I’m real curious about your grandparents because I’m truly fascinated by your great grandparents. Lucinda Jay Curle because she was a barber, as was her husband. WR: Okay. See, you know more about them than I do and that’s one of the things that I really regret; that I didn’t get as much information about them as I could have and should have because my mother could tell you everything and it would only come out if something came up. If we would say “so and so and so and so” she would say “oh yeah well so and so and so and so did that”, but it was never a sit down, this is what happened, y’know. AO: Right. WR: And I regret that because now everybody’s gone. The one person that could probably tell me anything doesn’t know. He can’t tell me anything because he doesn’t seem to have the knowledge that my mother had. AO: Who is that? WR: My uncle Tommy, my mother’s youngest brother. AO: I think I knew him, I think. WR: You probably knew [him]. He has throat cancer and he has a little– he talks through a little box. �AO: Like I used to do. WR: Oh I didn’t know. Okay, yeah. AO: Well, I didn’t know that. No, that’s not why I think I know him. I think I know him from Northeast. WR: I doubt it because by the time you was coming up, he was gone. He stayed gone many years. He was in Washington first and then he went to– he moved to Connecticut. AO: What part? WR: Newhaven. One of my best friends lives in Newhaven and I went there two, three times– AO: Marcelis? WR: No, he knows Marcelis. Actually he knows their sisters. AO: Sharon and Carolyn. WR: Because they’re all in the school system. Matter of a fact, Carolyn, one night I walked in the club– first time I went up there. I walked in the club and somebody said “That’s old Westley Rogers!” AO: You thought “I can’t get away.” WR: Exactly and it was– I didn’t even know her name then, but it was– Was it Carolyn? It was Carolyn and we talked for a long time. AO: That’s interesting because Linda Daniel and I– That’s why I was curious about Stick Daniel because, see– WR: I don’t know if they’re related. AO: Daniels are my relatives and I’m not familiar with a Frank, but I’ll find out who he is. But we were talking about Sharon and neither one of us could think of her name. WR: Sharon Edwards? Okay, yeah. AO: But we finally– I finally figured it out because I was determined. But it is sad how we lose our history. I don’t think our parents thought of it as being important. WR: No. AO: I think probably, you mentioned your grandchildren, you probably don’t tell them a lot about yourself. WR: No, I don’t, I have now, as well as my kids. My kids don’t know a lot about me, y’know. They know basics, but they don’t know my history, so to speak. And it’s funny that you mention that because in recent years I have been saying, I need to put this on paper and just let them know who and what I am and where I came from and how they evolved, y’know, so. AO: Well I’m glad you’re thinking about it because that’s one of the things that we really need to do because for me trying to reconstruct the black past in this town is almost impossible. I had run into a lot of roadblocks, some of them worse than others, but I feel like it’s important. Especially today. When we came up, even though we weren’t taught our own history, we were aware of our position in this country and why it was what it was. Kids coming up today don’t know anything except Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks– WR: Some of them don’t know that. �AO: Right. They don’t understand what racism was, is, and I think we owe them. We owe them that knowledge because when you have information, you know who you are, you know where you came from. So when you get into a situation that’s knew, while you may feel ill at ease, you’re comfortable within yourself and I think we robbed our children of that because we were so eager to believe that the Civil Rights Acts ended all of the stress and everything was gonna be fine. WR: Merely started. Might have started it. AO: Yes. Who was I talking to? What was that girl’s name? She told me yesterday morning about 9 o’clock, she didn’t go to church, she said– I don’t know how we got to integration. She said “That’s what caused black people’s problems. We didn’t do all these crazy things until we got integrated and then we learned how to be a fool.” And it does seem that way and it’s unfortunate so– WR: Because we saw how other people were getting away with it. AO: And we thought we could. WR: Yeah, we thought we could do it too. AO: And much to our chagrin, it doesn’t work out like that. So I think we have an obligation for the future to share as much as we can and your family is really, really interesting and like I said, I kind of stumbled on it. Like in a recent interview I found out– And I’m curious because you were in DC for a couple of years. WR: Yes. AO: Did you know your grandmother built a kindergarten facing Addison? WR: I was at Addison when they built it. AO: Did you know it blew up? WR: It did– yeah. Yeah I knew it blew up, I was there when it blew up. AO: Oh excuse me. WR: Sitting next to the window watching the fumes come out of the ground. They put it on top of the dumb and, y’know, they would burn the dump. Well, up under all of that debris, stuff was still burning. AO: The gas. WR: Gasses was still burning. Exactly. I was at Addison when they put it there. AO: Y’know I never heard that. WR: Oh yeah. AO: I never knew that until a couple weeks ago. WR: Oh yeah. You were there. AO: I had no idea. WR: You were there. Because it happened my junior, senior year and you came back during that time. AO: How could I not know about it. Well I was probably home because I didn’t go to school much. WR: Plus it was on the other side of the school. You left and went the other way. �AO: Right. That’s true, that’s true. But I did not spend a lot of time at Addison, I stayed at home a lot. Whenever I ask people this question “Were you ever allowed to stay home from school?”, the first time– The first couple of times that people said no, I was like “wow” because I told my daddy I didn’t want to go to school he said okay. WR: Well my grandfather was like that. My grandfather made my father Harry Rogers Sr. and my uncle George Rogers who lives in Roanoke now, he made them drop out of school in the 6th grade and go to work for him laying bricks. My father’s a great bricklayer. Although he worked for the railroad most of his life, he was a– Matter of fact, my grandfather on my fathers side and my father and maybe my uncle George too, they built the– What do you call it, the Parish Hall to the First Baptist Church that burned down. That was our church, that was their church. My grandmother on my mother’s side, her parents were sort of like charter members in building or help building 5th Ave Presbyterian Church. But my father’s people belonged to First Baptist Church and my grandfather and my father built the Parish Hall that still stands there today. AO: That’s amazing. See what I mean about little things we don’t think about and it’s really significant. I think, like I told you, I really want to write about Lucinda Curle because it’s just fascinating to think– Well, first of all, she was not a slave. She and her husband came from affluent families in Lynchburg, freed blacks, and came here and established this barber shop. WR: Watts Barber Shop. AO: And she was a barber and then she became a school teacher. In fact, I’ve got a letter in my pocketbook that I was looking at yesterday from Roanoke City Schools. The annual report for 1934 and 5, and if I remember correctly she was teaching at Harrison. WR: Probably, I know my grandmother taught over there for a minute. AO: Really? WR: Matter of fact, the land right behind Harrison where they had– and they may still keep a lot of the Harrison Museum documents. AO: Where they got that little out building? WR: Right. My grandmother donated that land to them. AO: Really? WR: That was our land. Yes. AO: Wow. I wish they’d let some of the stuff out of the building, but be that as it may. Let’s see. Oh. Did you have any family stories that were passed down from one generation to another? WR: I’m sure there were, but I can’t remember them. My mother used to tell me stories all the time about our family, but I can’t– to be honest I can’t remember any of them. AO: I’m gonna try to jog your memory. Okay. Did you go– Were you in the military? WR: No. AO: Okay. What businesses and shops did your family frequent? WR: Oh I can tell you now the two that I remember most was Heironimus and Bush Flora Shoes. We always got our shoes from Bush Flora. As a matter of fact, I had the opportunity to go to Bush Flora recently and get some shoes for the first time since then. AO: Wow. �WR: I remember we used to– I can’t remember what that machine was for, but you would stand up on the machine and stick your feet in there and I don’t know if that told you– I don’t know what that machine did. AO: Y’know, I never thought about that, but I kind of remember that machine. WR: Yeah, stand up on that machine and you look down in there and you could see your feet. AO: It’s kind of like a– almost like a x-ray machine. WR: Yeah, exactly. It seemed like it was some kind of– Maybe it was to see whether your toes was up, supposed to be– Both: Up against your shoes or not. WR: But I can’t remember what it was for, but I remember I used to always like to go and get shoes because I was gonna look down in that machine. I don’t know why that was such a big deal, but those were the stores that we– And Pews (??), we visited– We shopped in Pews quite a bit. Bush Flora, Heironimus, and of course Kress’ and Woolworths. Those are the ones that I can remember as a family we shopped in. A little later on it was Bernard’s clothing store where all the African American young men shopped. Hanover Shoes on the corner right there where Corned Beef and Company is located now. Oak Hall which was right across the street on Jefferson Street where Milan Brothers is now. Well next door to– It’s a parking lot now, but Milan Brothers would have been next to it. Oak Hall. What else? There was Leggett’s of course. Leggett’s was a store that we would go steal from because it was so easy to do. They had shoes in the wall next to the door that you could– You could go in Leggett’s both ways off of Campbell Ave and off of First Street. They had the shoes in the wall going all the way up and down the wall right next to the door on the First Street side. All you had to do was open the door, reach in, grab the shoes, and walk down the street. So we took advantage of that. AO: I see. WR: As kids, young kids. AO: Your mind tells you terrible things as a kid. And I think that’s the link that we missed with this generation is owning up to the fact that I remember when I was crazy too. WR: Well, I tell you what, that used to be one of my– The group that I ran around with, that was our forte, we would steal real good and the thing that broke me from it– I’ll never forget this in my life. I would go down [to] Jennings and Shepherd. Remember Jennings and Shepherd? It was a sporting goods store. That’s where we would go get our– AO: Was it on Franklin? WR: No. It was on– Right next to where AEP is now. Right in there. On that street right there, right in there. Jennings and Shepherd Sporting Goods, they had every kind of– Anything you could need. AO: Appalachian? WR: Yeah. AO: That’s Franklin. WR: Is that Franklin? AO: Yeah. �WR: Okay. I see, don’t ask me. AO: Don’t confuse me. WR: Well don’t confuse me. I don’t know no streets. AO: Got me thinking “AEP… AEP”. WR: Well, we would go in there and get everything we wanted to get. One time I went in there– Now I have come home with watches, rings, shoes, ping pong balls, boxes of ping pong balls, ping pong paddles, baseball gloves, professional type gloves. Everything you could name. Skates, anything I needed, my group could get it. I got caught stealing a skate key and they called the detectives on me. Took me in this back room. I forget who I was with, it was just me and one guy this time, normally it’s about five or six or us. I forget who I was with, might have been Rufus Jackson. They took me in the back room and called the detectives. The detectives came down, started asking me all these questions “oh what skate key?”, and finally they asked me who was my parents so I knew to tell them C.C. Dupree was my grandfather because I knew he knew everybody on that side of town. So this one detective said “You mean to tell me C.C. Dupree is your grandfather?” I said “Yes, sir.” He said “Well I’m gon’ tell you what. I’m gon’ give you a choice. You want me to call him or you want me to lock you up for a couple days?” I said lock me up. He said “If I ever catch you back Downtown again, I’m taking you straight to your grandfather. He cuts my hair.” I said you ain’t got to worry about me coming down here no more. AO: So that ended that huh? Well that’s good. WR: But he told him anyway. AO: Did he? WR: Yes. He told him. I got the worst beating of my life and then I started liking sports. AO: Found something else to occupy your time. WR: And another thing– Another incident that happened to me when I was young that, as I think back on it, I must have been crazy. If you go down my street, Loudon Ave, towards the end as you get towards Henry Street on the right hand side was a big fence with barbed wire all around the top. If you go over the fence and look down, at the bottom of this big steep cliff was Automobile Exchange. You remember Automobile Exchange? AO: Yeah, yeah. That big building. WR: You remember in the back it had that big ‘ol tall hill or cliff in the back of it. Well at the top was High Street. You couldn’t get up there unless you go all the way around the Dumas and come down High Street. And me, Andrew Webb, might have been John __(??) Appleseed. Yeah John __(??) Appleseed. I know you know him. You know him. AO: I know better (??). WR: We was throwing rocks down on the cars. They got scared and left, I kept throwing them. I must have broke out every car window down there. AO: Oh you were doing damage? WR: Oh damage? Damage wasn’t the word. I was throwing big ‘ol rocks, just throwing them, just for meanness, not, y’know, not for no reason. And they couldn’t get us because they couldn’t �come up that hill. Every time they started around, I would run. Then when they’d seen me run they’d come back. Well when they’d come back, I’d come back. But anyway, long story short; I got home, just knew I had it made. They found out somehow or another that it was me and my father, y’know, at the time worked on– I was real young then. My father worked on the railroad and he had been out for three or four days and when he came back in, somebody told him the story. I got the worst beating of my– I think he must have beat me for about a week. I think he took of from work to beat me. AO: A week. WR: I mean, every time I saw him coming I started trembling from that point. Not long after that I think him and my mother broke up. I was glad. I was glad. AO: Ain’t gotta worry about him no more. WR: Yeah, thank God. He almost killed– Well because he had to pay for all that, he had to pay a lot of money. AO: I bet he did. WR: My grandfather helped and they didn’t even like each other and he had him helping pay the money. AO: Because you decided to break car windows. WR: For no reason, just walking down the street and said “I think I’m gonna throw some rocks down there.” AO: Now I was a great rock thrower. I still like to do it now. I like to throw it in the river or across the river, whichever one happens. WR: Right. Now I used to like to make them skip across the river. AO: I never did that. WR: Yeah. AO: But I never– I guess because Steve Ollie would– Well I was his girl. Had I got in trouble for things that you’ve mentioned, I can’t even imagine that we would be having this conversation today because he would have killed me. WR: Well, some things that I can’t mention that were worse than that. AO: Wow. WR: Yeah. AO: Y’know, it just seems so– Y’know I’m not being judgemental, it’s just interesting to me when we talk about being children, the kinds of things that we did. Now I got in trouble for– Y’know, I had a boundary, y’know, I was supposed to stay within and I mean that was like waving a flag, the boundary. I had to go to the other side. And Mr. Dan, Mrs. Johnny Cooper, your grandmother’s sister’s– I don’t know who he was. I always thought he worked for them, but I really don’t know and I have yet to find anybody who knew that man’s name. I’m not giving up. WR: Ask– I bet Ms. whats-you-called-them knows. AO: Who? WR: Mrs. Cooper. �AO: Okay, I was thinking Liz Hale should know too because they live next door. WR: I bet you Mrs. Cooper knows. AO: I’m determined to find out because he told everything I did. I mean, when I tore up my bike and sneaked it home, put it beside daddy’s car because I was gonna lie and say somebody must have stolen it. WR: You need to talk to George Elick. AO: I remember him too. He lived up the street. WR: Right. AO: But my knees were bloody– WR: Billy Elick, I mean to say. That was his son. AO: I didn’t know the son. WR: Yeah Billy Elick– AO: But I knew the daddy. WR: George Elick, with that old car. AO: Yeah, bunch of old cars. WR: Bunch of old cars. AO: But, y’know, I was pretty much safe, I thought. Until Mr. Dan came out and said “Mr. Ollie, Arleen brought that bike over here all banged up.” The one time I hid from momma. She was gonna beat me right? And I ran, the only time I ever did that. It’s because of him. I ran and see I could run so fast. It’s not like her, she can’t catch me. So I sat down behind the flower bush and she’s just running around the house “Arleen Francis! Arleen Francis!” And I’m sitting behind the bush just dying laughing. So when she got next to the bush on I think it was the third or fourth time she’d been around the house while I was sitting, Mr. Dan said “Mrs. Ollie, she’s sitting right there.” See that’s why I wanna know who he was. He was like my guardian angel, but I wasn’t loving him because every wrong thing I did, somehow he knew and he did not mind telling and thinking back on it, all kids needed a Mr. Dan and they do now more than ever. Because I know I get angry with kids nowadays– WR: That’s true. More now than ever. QO: And I don’t tell on them. I don’t care, go in the house and shut the door because they act so ugly. Okay. Did you shop any– I don’t wanna skew this. Let’s say this: where’d you grocery shop? WR: Oh, two places that I can recall; at the corner store which every neighborhood had one at the time, but mainly at A&P on Saturday mornings and across the street at the– I guess you called that the marketplace? AO: The meat market. WR: The meat market, the meat market, that’s what it was called. We would get– Sometimes we would get vegetables from the farmers who backed their carts up to the edge of the sidewalk and then we’d go inside and get whatever meats we’d need. AO: And then go across to A&P and get the canned goods. WR: That’s right. �AO: What is your fondest childhood memory? WR: Fondest? Well I remember there were times when– Y’know I’m speaking early on now. My father used to take us out on Williamson Road and they had pony rides out there and we used to go out there and ride the ponies and I used to love to do that. Aside from that, as I said before, I enjoyed going to school, especially after I got to Harrison School because when I went to Harrison, I got a whole new group of friends because now you not only know the kids that you went to school with at Gilmer, you know all the kids that went to all the schools because in the 6th grade, that’s where they ended up going. See, back during that time, none of the schools except for Harrison had the 6th grade. AO: I did not know that. WR: Oh yeah. None of the schools at that time had 6th grade, so when you got ready to go to the 6th grade, everybody had to go to Harrison. Well, lo and behold, the same year that it was time for me to go to the 6th grade or for Gilmer to go to the 6th grade, they put a 6th grade in Gilmer which meant the kids at Gilmer stayed there. But they didn’t tell me, so I transferred to– They wanted me to go to Harrison. My mother was kind of burnt up behind that, but they said burnt up she must be. Because it was easy for me to go from Gilmer to Gregory School to eat lunch every day and then catch a ride with my grandmother home in the evening if that’s what I wanted to do, but normally I would walk with Willie Albert and George Boyd. Willie Albert half way and George Body all the way because George Boyd and neither one of us were supposed to go to Gilmer. AO: Okay. WR: We were out of that district. AO: Oh. WR: But because my grandmother had some influence on the school system, I was able to go there. And then George Boyd’s mother had some influence on the system, he was able to go there and she wanted him to go there because she worked for Dr. Downing and we would walk from Gilmer School up to the yard on Henry Street and he would meet his mother there and then I would go on to High Street if I’m going home. But no, the 6th grade was only at Harrison so you got to meet people from Gainsboro, Harrison– AO: Gilmer. What about Loudon? WR: Loudon, those were the other three. What you call them? Lincoln Terrace wasn’t around at the time. AO: Right. WR: But you got to meet all the kids at that time. AO: And they tricked you. WR: Big time. I went on– Well see, first of all, my birthday is in December and they had let me in Gilmer when– If your birthday comes after October you gotta– Both: Wait ‘till the next year. WR: Well, they let me in and Mrs– Well I won’t call any names, but one of my neighbors [her] son tried to do the same thing. His birthday was the 3rd of December, mine was the 6th. They �wouldn’t let her do it and she told on me “Well if you let him do it, why can’t my son do it?” So they made me come out of Gilmer and wait until the next year. AO: There’s a lot of that going on. Did you know Anne Finney? I’m sure she won’t mind me telling you, but her mother changed her birth certificate. Anne is– her birthday is January the 1st. WR: Anne is Jemis’ (??) wife? Okay. Ex-wife? AO: Mine is January 20th of another year. WR: Yeah that’s right, y’all live on the same street. AO: And she was school with us because her momma changed her birth certificate. I’m technically a year behind because of that October thing. She’s a whole year ahead because– WR: For the same reason. AO: Right, but it never bothered me one way or another. WR: Me either, it didn’t bother me. Actually I’m kinda glad because the guys that I learned– got to be friends with, y’know, I wouldn’t have it any other way. AO: Right. WR: Y’know, some of the guys I made friends with during that time, like Willie Albert. I’ve been knowing Willie Albert Edmonds since I was in the first grade. Sherwood Kasey since I was in nursery school. I mean I could go on and on with people that I met during that time that I know that I’m still friends with. Pat Wallow was down there, Brad Bethel was down there, William Laprade was down there, Francis Brown. I could go on and on y’know. AO: It really makes a difference and I’m learning more and more, I might even do an interview myself, how different my life was from people my age and it’s kinda interesting and it’s kinda sad, but– I guess I really am glad it happened that way because I don’t know who else I would have turned out to be. I learned to be a lot more independent and I’m constantly told, [more] than perhaps I should be, living in the South. But things happen. WR: Things do happen. Things do happen and not only that, if it turns out right, then it’s good that it happened anyway. AO: Right, that’s the way to look at it because you can’t change it anyway. So you make the best of a bad situation. Okay. Did you have a favorite family vacation or a favorite gift that you received? WR: I enjoyed, as a vacation, there were times when my family went to Washington to visit my relatives and I enjoyed that. That was my vacation. I think one summer, when I was a kid, I spent the whole summer with my aunt Ruth, my mom’s only sister, and I really enjoyed that. Although the kids up there was beating me up for some reason, I don’t know, I can’t remember what I was doing to make them beat me up every day. They was beating me up everyday. AO: You were new. WR: Well I was new and, y’know, [had] a runny mouth too at the time. AO: I’m sure. WR: I don’t know. Vacation and what was the other thing you said? AO: Did you have a favorite gift. �WR: Gift. Um, yeah. My favorite gift, probably, well I might have had two of them. My favorite gift probably was my bicycle because it allowed me to not have any boundaries as you so alluded to earlier. AO: Get in more trouble. WR: Yes, more trouble. Well I could go– Y’know, we used to play basketball in Rufus Jackson’s backyard, I put up a goal there. Well, as I said, later on my friends branched off into other things. Cars and girls and this and that. My love and passion at the time was basketball. So now I don’t have anybody to play with. So I could go to Eureka Park, I could go to Gilmer Schoolyard, they even had a basket in Gregory Schoolyard that was very popular where a lot of the good players could play. [I] used to go to that little small park down on 460 right before you get to Campbell Ave, y’know, right there. It only had one basket, wasn’t even a park, it just had a basket sitting there and the rest of it was this big cliff. AO: On 460. WR: Yeah, right after you pass Williamson Road and it was a corner store right there. It was a junkyard, it was this little park. There was a junkyard, there was a corner store, the corner store was right on the corner of Kimbell. AO: Okay, I kinda vaguely got that. That was down there where Carolyn’s son was– WR: Right, that was a popular little park. Well with my bicycle, I could go to all these places, y’know, with no problem and it didn’t take a whole lot of time. And my other prised possession during that time was– My father– No my father wasn’t here then, he sent the money for me to get a movie camera when I was in the 6th grade. And I got the camera, the projector, and the screen. AO: Alright. WR: And I had fun with that and that’s probably why I like cameras today. I still take a lot of pictures today. But I had some great pictures back then. I don’t know what happened– Not pictures, but movie clips. I don’t know what happened to them. I used to take it to school every day. I got it when I was at Harrison and I had pictures of me, Reggie Clark, Davison Harrison, Harold Hunt, Big Dog Thornhill, Stick Daniels. All of us were in the same homeroom; Ronald Law, Earl Pullens. Five of us, might have been six; Earl, Harold Hunt, Regie, Ronald Law, myself, and David; we all played drums and we were all in the same homeroom and we all went from Harrison through Addison in the band together. AO: That’s great. WR: Now some of them, David– When we got to Addison, David switched over to horn because they had enough drummers. Dickie Locket was another guy who, coming through school, he played drums, but when he got to Addison he had to play bass tuba because we had enough drummers, y’know. AO: Right. WR: And there were a lot of guys who had to do that. AO: Change instruments. WR: Yeah they had to because we just had to have a drum and bugle corps. AO: Not just drums. �WR: Right. AO: Okay, did you go to Gainsboro Library? WR: No, no. Not on a regular basis. I’ve been in there and have done a few things in there, but not to say I went on a regular basis, no. AO: Okay. WR: I played, now– That property of Gainsboro Library was also used for the practice football field of the Y. Y’know we played in that field everyday. Everyday. AO: Wow okay. Describe cultural events that happened in Gainsboro. For example, do you remember entertainers that came to the Dumas? Do you remember performances, how many people attended, what time of year it was, or where they were held? If there were entertainers where did they stay? WR: Of course, I can tell you that very easily because I lived two blocks from Henry Street which is where they stayed at the time. I saw them all. I played pool with the Issac Brothers, I played pool with some of James Brown’s members. I’ve talked to Solomon Burke, I’ve talked to– Who else? I think Wilson Pickett. I’ve talked to everybody that I– Oh what’s the girl’s name? “At last–” AO: Etta James. WR: Etta James, I’ve talked to her. By me living two blocks from Henry Street, I basically lived on Henry Street. There wasn’t a rock that I didn’t know where it was, or a hole. AO: Do you know the pie man’s name? WR: I don’t know his name. All I know is he’s the pie man. Mr– What did my grandmother call him? I called him Mr. Pie Man, but my grandmother called him by his name whenever he would walk by the house. You see, a lot of people don’t know, before he got that shop on Henry Street, he would walk up and down the streets selling pies. He didn’t have that shop on Henry Street all the time. AO: Right because didn’t he have a wagon? WR: No, he had a basket that he put over his back and he had– “Mr. Pie Man, you got any pies?” “Yes sir, here’s a pie.” Put that basket on the back, keep walking on down the street. AO: Someone said they thought he was Native American. WR: If I had to guess, I would guess that because he had all the features. He had all the features. Yeah. AO: Did he have a family? WR: I never saw a family. I never ever saw him with a family. AO: You know where he lived? WR: I never knew where he lived. I only saw him when he came around. AO: Came to sell those pies. WR: And then later on he opened up the shop right next to Brooks Pharmacy and I would go in there and buy pies, but y’know now that you mentioned it, yeah he was a mystery man because I never saw a family, I don’t know his name. He was very sociable, but he wasn’t– he was kinda like to himself. �AO: Very private. WR: Yeah, very private. So he only– AO: That’s so interesting. WR: Would give you information when you asked him for it. He didn’t normally volunteer it and he would never ever give you the recipe to those pies. AO: What about Jerry the popsicle man? WR: Jerry the– I don’t know his name. I forgot about Jerry the popsicle man until you mentioned it. I forgot all about Jerry until you mentioned it. Whoa. No, I don’t know his name. But yes, I knew all of the– I came in contact with most of the entertainers that came to the Star City Auditorium. AO: Right because they stayed at the Dumas. WR: All of them stayed at the Dumas, all of them. AO: Okay did you have any role models? WR: Back during that time, probably when I got to the point where I wanted to look at somebody as a role model, probably were my coaches. Y’know, early on maybe, like I said, Mr. Keeling, Sam Davis, Buster Keen. Those people, but by the time I got to Addison it was my coaches; Coach Brown, Coach Cannaday, and then I have to include Coach Mormon in there even though he was never my coach. He was a person probably instrumental in me being what I am today without having any contact with me at all and I say that because he got me my scholarship to West Virginia State. AO: Really? WR: Oh yeah, he was working at West Virginia State. He had attended Bluefield State and Coach Cannaday attended West Virginia State. Coach Brown attended Bluefield State. They were all in school at the same time. I just found this out [the] year before last at homecoming. Coach Cannaday, the coach that I last played for at West Virginia State, Coach Enty, and the coach that recruited me to West Virginia State. Coach Enty and Coach Cannaday played for Coach Caldwell who recruited me. Coach Enty and Coach Cannaday were roommates. AO: Wow. WR: And they played on the team that won three straight CIAA championships, which has never been done since then. AO: That’s fantastic. WR: And I didn’t know this until I saw Coach Enty a couple years ago, we were talking and he said yeah and he told me a lot of other things, but getting back to the story I was telling you about: Coach Mormon was either going to West Virginia State or working at West Virginia State that summer that I came out of high school and when he came home he was asking around if there was anybody who wanted a scholarship and somebody evidently gave him my name and he– I don’t know if we ran across each other, he looked me up, or what happened. And he said “They need a big man up there at West Virginia State if you wanna go.” Well I had two other scholarships that I had [that] basically I hadn’t even acknowledged and one was to Kittrell College and one was too– And my folks on my father’s side, my grandmother and grandfather on �my father’s side are from Kittrell, North Carolina. I don’t think that school is in existence anymore. But I think I had another scholarship to Bluefield, but I never even wrote them back. But at the same time, the war in Vietnam was getting bad and they were drafting everybody. I remember Sherwood Kasey went down to take his physical because you’re supposed to go and take it within five days after you’re 18, but we were playing basketball during– AO: You didn’t go. WR: During December. I didn’t go. So I didn’t go until after the season so they assumed I was trying to duck. So even though I had gotten into college, I was the only son and my grades were good, were great as a matter of fact at that time, and they called for me to come anyway. But anyrate, I failed because of my knees. But Coach Mormon told me about this opening and I called the coach, the coach said okay he would call Coach Cannaday and get a reference from Coach Cannaday and it’s a crazy story because both of them told me thing about the coach that recruited me and Coach Cannaday. When he called Coach Cannaday, he was looking for somebody who could rebound, a person who could leap real good and grab rebounds and he asked Coach Cannaday “Well can he jump?” Coach Cannaday said “He can shoot.” He said asked Coach Cannaday again, the conversation went on, he asked him again “Well, y’know, how well can he jump?” And Coach Cannaday’d say “Well he’s a great shooter.” So he said he asked him three times and he kept saying that you could shoot. So he said “I went on and recruited you anyway.” He says “Now I know what he meant. You’re not a great jumper, but you can shoot.” AO: That’s really sad. WR: Yeah. So when I went to West Virginia State, I think that turned my whole life in a different direction because at that time I was ready to hang out on the yard and hang with some of my buddies back during that time; George P__(??), James Clabert, Simon Calbert. I was ready to just hang out back during that time and I don’t know what I might be doing. AO: Be in trouble, sounds like. WR: If I hadn’t gone to West Virginia– AO: Simon and James did okay, George didn’t fare too well. WR: No, George didn’t do well. I understand George is a little sick now. AO: Really? WR: Yeah, __(??) was telling me when they went to Simon’s funeral; they came back and they stopped at Sheetz gas station and George just, his legs just collapsed from under him. He’s not doing well health wise and he don’t remember nothing. AO: Not good health. WR: No, that’s what I’m saying. AO: That’s scary. WR: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. But yeah, Coach Mormon is my story. Whenever I see him, I tell him “Whatever it is [that] I am, it’s because of you.” AO: I don’t really know him. I met him– I remember talking to him at Walmart, but I never knew him during school. I don’t know– �WR: Well he didn’t– Because he didn’t teach at Addison. I think he taught at Booker T. for a minute, but he taught at Lylburn Downing in Lexington and he taught someplace else. He didn’t teach there, he just came over to help the coaches out with the football team. AO: Oh, okay. WR: He didn’t teach over there. AO: Okay, that’s a good reason for me not to know him. WR: Yeah, no, you wouldn’t know him from Addison. He would only come over there when he got off from wherever he was teaching. I can’t remember where he was teaching. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t in town, it was close around here, but it wasn’t here. He would come over and you would see him on the sidelines at all the football games, you would see him at every football practice, but he didn’t teach at Addison. AO: That struck a nerve, but I don’t remember. Yeah, I do remember he taught somewhere in this vicinity, but not here. But I don’t remember the school. Okay. How has Gainsboro changed over the years and was your life– How was your life affected by segregation and the Civil Rights Movement? WR: Well let me answer the first question first. Comparing Gainsboro today [to] back then, there’s really no comparison because it’s lifeless, today it’s lifeless. Back then it was full of as the old adage goes; vim, vigor, and vitality. AO: Yeah. WR: You would see people– It’s almost like it was a metropolitan city; see people on the streets and on the sidewalks all the time. Just hustling and bustling, going about working or at play or whatever, but now when you go to that neighborhood, it’s almost like a ghost town. Y’know it kinda brings tears to my eyes because that was home for me, right in the middle of Gainsboro was home for me. I could just walk out the house knowing something was gonna be going on, y’know. Every now and then now, I’ll drive down through there just to re-acquaint myself. I remember about a month ago, I remember Ted Calloway whose house faced Patton Ave, probably the 300th block of Patten Ave and in his backyard he had a garage that had been torn down, but the foundation was still there and that thing couldn’t be no more than 10, 12 feet wide and maybe 10, 12 feet long, maybe 15 feet long. And we had a basketball basket right there where we– I don’t know how. When I went up there and looked at it, I was trying for my doggonest to figure out how did we have four and five man teams playing in that circumference. Y’know and the walls came up this high because, y’know, the garage had a wooden thing on top and they tore that part down. The walls came up to about here on me and we never got hurt. I mean you’d run into the wall, you’d be playing ball, you’d run it and it ain’t but this wide and that deep. How did we do that? Y’know, I just– I went up there and I just parked my car. Was so much bush a debris in the alley, I couldn’t hardly get up in there and those kind of things kinda brought tears to my eyes because I could remember when. AO: Yeah, it’s one of the things I think about when my parents used to tell me about what they remembered, oh Lord. WR: Yeah. �AO: But those days started for me when I was probably 30 when I began to realize what we were losing and what we had lost. WR: Well see, for a long time– From the time I got out of West Virginia State in 1967 to about probably the early 80s. I think for about 10 years, close to about 10 years, I didn’t come back to Roanoke. So when I did come back, I could see the change. AO: A big shot. WR: Yeah, I could see the change coming then, y’know, and it wasn’t a pleasant sight to see and to see it evolve into what it is today, it’s really not a pleasant sight to see. Sometimes I wish I had not come back to Roanoke because what I see now is not what I’m used to seeing. Y’know, and I know– I don’t care what you do or where you go, there’s always gonna be change, but even if there’s gotta be change, it doesn’t gotta be so drastic. AO: Are you talking about just the physical or the physical and the spiritual, mental? WR: Well, physical, yeah. Mental, to me, Roanoke’s overall mentality hasn’t changed. For all ethnic groups that are involved. My ethnic group seems to have the same mentality and when I say that, I say it seems to be one of content. Y’know that’s the first thing that I said to myself when I came back here, we are content, y’know. Because if we were not content, a lot of these things wouldn’t be happening. AO: True. WR: And then I said, the other mentality seems to be the same because it seems like they love to suppress and we are content being suppressed so everybody’s happy. AO: There’s a couple of us. WR: Well, I mean as a whole. As a whole. AO: Yeah, as a whole, I understand exactly. WR: Y’know I understand, I understand– Yeah, well, a couple of us. Like the other day, I just read in the paper the other day when the NAACP had the meeting over there, there were 25 people there. When they had the neighborhood meeting. AO: Did you know about the meeting? WR: I didn’t know about it. AO: Me neither. WR: I had not heard about it. AO: Until I saw it on TV. WR: I didn’t know about it. I didn’t even see it on TV. I missed that. I just saw it when I picked the paper up. So, I don’t know. AO: I think you kinda said that– You said suppressed. I think of it as we’re oppressed. Both ethnicities, major ethnicities, and I don’t think we’re aware of it. WR: Well, you’re probably right because it is my observation that it’s been that way so long [that] a lot of us are at the point where we think that’s the way it should be. So if you think that’s the way it should be, how would you know that it’s supposed to be something else? AO: My point exactly. WR: Yeah, I agree with you. �AO: Yes. WR: How much further we got to go? Oh! AO: We’re almost there. I can’t believe you talked this long. Talk about your memories of urban renewal and what kind of effect did it have on your life. WR: Well– You mean urban renewal right here in Roanoke? AO: Mhmm. WR: Well when they started urban renewal, I really wasn’t here. AO: In your neighborhood. You were here when it started because that’s when we left in ‘56. WR: Uh, I didn’t see no renewal. If you say– I lived on High Street remember? AO: Right. WR: The only renewal they had up there was when they tore it down. AO: That it. When you talk about urban renewal in Roanoke, that’s kinda what it means; when they tear down your neighborhood. What do you think about it? WR: Well, see, I wasn’t here. AO: Right, that’s right. WR: I was– That was in the late 70s, early 80s when that happened. I was living in Washington at the time. As a matter of fact, I was getting ready to get married and I brought my wife home, my then wife home, to meet my family and by this time my family had moved from High Street to McDowell Ave and when I went by the old house on High Street, I was just flabbergasted because it was a freeway for people to come in and out, y’know. My grandmother and mother were scared to go over there. AO: Really? WR: Because the street had gotten so bad. AO: Wow. WR: And, matter of fact, to this day I really get disturbed every time I think about it. We had antiques in there that, y’know, there wasn’t no storage places at the time and if there were, they couldn’t afford to put them in there. My grandmother had an over 100 year old bed that was taken out of there. She had a piano that was basically almost 100 years old, the kind with the petals, you could put the paper on it and it would play it so you could see the keys working. We had one of those. We had the radio I was telling you about. We had a lot of antiques in that house that went out of there and you could see where people had been coming in taking the spokes from the banisters and taking it out for firewood. Y’know, that kind of stuff. So by the time I came back and saw what was going on before I left and where I was brought up, I didn’t really want to see no more. I really didn’t want to see no more, but that’s right around the time they were talking about getting rid of High Street and by the time I came back again, High Street was gone. AO: Can barely tell where it was. WR: Say it again? AO: Can barely tell where it was. �WR: No, no, you’re right, you can’t. When I have company and I try to show them where I used to live, they say “You used to live over there at the Coca Cola?” I said no. It’s hard telling. AO: Well see I lived in– I can’t figure out whether it’s the Civics Center parking lot or the ramp to the interstate, but in that vicinity. WR: You were– Oh good question. You– Good question. AO: See Raley (??) was such a long street. WR: Yeah, it was. AO: And we were– WR: That’s a good question. I would put you in the Civics Center parking lot. AO: That’s what I’ve always said, but in my mind’s eye I keep saying nah we were up a little further than that. But see they changed the land, the whole makeup. WR: Yeah, oh yeah. The whole landscape. AO: So that you really– WR: Yeah, it’s hard to tell. AO: Yeah it’s– And sometimes I wonder if was done deliberately. WR: Because you go by– You couldn’t tell nobody Diamond Hill used to be there. AO: Right. I tried to describe that to the kids at Addison. I guess it’s been about six weeks ago and the teacher was just amazed. She said “Did you hear that?” She said “Where the Civics Center parking lot [is], there was this gigantic hill!” And I thought, y’know, I had a wonderful– The first eight years of my life I lived in Northeast and I have nothing negative to say about it, nothing. WR: No, it was good times. I remember Diamond Hill well. Matter of a fact, I saw Jack Thomson three weeks ago when I was in Washington. AO: I haven’t seen him in years. Y’know our backyards met. WR: Right, right. AO: I haven’t seen him– WR: No. AO: I don’t think I’ve seen him since the 70s maybe. WR: I saw him at a funeral. AO: I saw him at a dance. It was either in DC at the Roanoker’s Ball or here for something. WR: Anything that’s gotta do with Roanoke that’s a dance, he gon’ be there. AO: That’s probably so. Because before his mother died, I know he came down in this really ritzy Cadillac. WR: That’s him. Well one time he had a Rolls-Royce. AO: Get out. WR: Yeah. I used to play ball with him up in DC. There’s a playground called Candy Cane that’s in Rock Creek Park and that cat rolled up in that Rolls-Royce and I heard somebody say “Hey JJ!” The dude said he ain’t– I didn’t see it myself. Dude said he ain’t seen no– Somebody evidently told this guy that JJ had a Rolls-Royce parked right on the parking lot. Guy said “JJ”, �dude said he ain’t seen no Rolls-Royce out there. Jack said “Well there ain’t but one thing I can tell him; either he’s blind like Stevie Wonder or he don’t know what one look like!” AO: Can’t recognize it when you see it. In other words, it’s in the parking lot– WR: Yeah, it’s over there. AO: If you want to see it. WR: Yeah, if you wanna familiarize yourself. And then at one point he had a big wreath on the front of it. AO: Yeah I think he had one on the Cadillac the last time I saw him. WR: That’s him, JJ, he’s– AO: I was trying to think, what’s that about, how old is he? If I”m 60. WR: He gotta be about ten years older than us at least. AO: At least because– WR: He come out of Addison about ‘55, ‘56. Somewhere in there. AO: Because I remember Margaret– Margaret Thomson, Brenda Manns– WR: Brenda Manns. AO: Laverne Hale. I’m leaving out somebody. WR: Did Laverne Hale live up on that Hill? AO: Oh, Barbara Jean Edmonds. WR: Living up on that hill? AO: They were the big girls. No. Barbara Jean, Brenda, Laverne– WR: Where is Brenda Manns? AO: She’s dead. WR: Now was that Spencer’s sister? AO: No. Henry and Donalds Manns because, believe it or not, Sunny is what everybody calls Henry, he’s the only one living of the three. WR: I can’t remember them two. I remember Brenda, Brenda must’ve been the baby. AO: Yeah, she was the only girl. WR: Yeah and she’s the only I remember. But didn’t she live on Raley? AO: Yeah, right across the street. WR: Yeah. Pretty girl. AO: The Coopers lived directly across from me. At the end of their property, Laverne Hale lived there. WR: Right, where is she? AO: Maryland. WR: Okay, I ain’t seen her in a million years. AO: And then there was Barbara Jean Edmonds, she just died. WR: Now what she was to Normand? AO: Sister, she was the baby girl. In fact, the only sister they have left is Marie out of all of them, I think it was like ten or more. WR: I only remembered Normand. Maybe it was because he played basketball. �AO: Wow. WR: I only remember Normand. AO: Well. WR: I know he was with Howard’s cousin. AO: Like I said, there was about 10 to 13 of them. WR: Jesus. AO: And Marie’s the only one left and she oughta be– It’s so bizarre when you think about it, Marie’s probably in her 90s. WR: That’s probably why then because they’re so much older. AO: Who? WR: The Edmonds. AO: Well they ranged from– WR: Because Normand had to be one of the youngest. AO: Normand was older than my brother and he’s four years older than me so he was probably six years older than me which would make him about 66 and Barbara Jean– Well I can say this; Barbara Jean was 70 when she died last month. WR: Okay. AO: And I can’t remember whether she was older than Normand– They were the two youngest. Whether she was older than Normand or Normand was older than her. Because he’s been dead for– good Lord. WR: Yeah he’s been dead for a long time. Well if she was 70, Normand– The way you putting it now, Normand was six years older than you, Normand would have been four years older than me. Which makes it about right. He was in– Him and James and Jerry __(??)’s brothers used to hang around together. Y’know that would have made me about 66, 67, somewhere in there. AO: And he’s been dead a good 30 years. WR: A long time. What was it? A motorcycle accident? That was Buck. AO: Yeah that was Buck. A truck ran a stop sign and had a pipe on it, a copper pipe, and it didn’t have any kind of– No, didn’t run a stop sign, stopped at a stop sign, didn’t have any kind of thing of thing on it for you to see this little pipe and it went through his throat. WR: Where was that? AO: DC. WR: I thought it was in DC. AO: Yep. But those were the big girls. I used to run, I could be, y’know, swinging from one of the trees, y’know, playing cowboys and Indians. When it was time for them to get out of Addison and I’d run because our yard was up and I’d run and sit down like I was the sweetest thing in the universe just so I could see the big girls. Come home from school and I used to say “I’m gonna have some skirts.” I’d never forget, they had those poodle skirts, y’know, with the dog and the chain on it. I can remember that and the bobby socks. Man I wanted one of those skirts and the kremlin slips, they were just gorgeous, I thought they were the prettiest things in the universe. WR: Oh man. �AO: My how times change. WR: Yes indeed. AO: Well, is there anything that we didn’t cover that you’d like to share with us. WR: I can’t think of anything that you didn’t cover. AO: Believe it or not, I missed a bunch of questions. WR: You covered some stuff that I had forgotten about. Oh let me see. No, I just– I think the one thing that I do miss more than anything is Henry Street. Just the comradery, y’know just the comradery. AO: We don’t have a meeting place anymore. WR: No and you took the words right out of my mouth, I was just getting ready to say that. I can remember when I would come home from college or I can remember when I was in high school and the guys who had gone on to college, the first thing they would do was they’d come by Henry Street when they came home because you knew you were gonna see the rest of the guys up there and they would, y’know, exchange stories and, y’know, just so much that I got from just being around there. I miss that, y’know. If nothing else, you got to meet people. If somebody was new in town, that’s the first play they gon’ come. If somebody’s new in town now, you have no idea. Y’know, I have met people and I have said “Well are you from Roanoke?” “No.” “How long you been here?” “I’ve been here and such and such since then.” I said “You been here a long time.” “Yeah with no place to go.” “Well who you work for?” “I work for such and such and company.” Y’know these things are important to know. So, that is the only thing that we didn’t– I don’t think we touched too much on Henry Street other than Dumas, but that is the one thing that I miss from this town and it’s probably the reason why I’m on the committee now not to have the social security building put on Henry Street. I’d like to see it close to what it was before, if not– Y’know it’ll never be what it was, but at least have some thriving businesses there. Something that we, as a race, can relate to. AO: And be proud of. WR: And proud of, exactly. And I think the way it’s headed now, it’s not going in that direction. AO: Really? WR: I don’t think so. Although they shot it, shot that down, y’know. AO: Yeah. WR: But they’ll find a way to come back I’m sure. AO: They always do. WR: They always do, that’s my words exactly. Is that it? AO: That’s a sad way to end it, but thank you for your time and your participation. I truly appreciate it. WR: Oh anytime. Anytime. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Westley Rogers Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Westley Rogers Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 2 July 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:49:29 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2 July 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Westley Rogers. Jr.; Arleen Ollie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RogersWestley https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/PullensKatherine_[compressed].mp3 de5d0f42891870876602f78f88df0250 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Katherine_Pullens_03-24-08_no2.jpg 85e0d15a4ed1c2eef540c13ae2e19091 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Bertha_Pullens.jpg 3509f9c37d1d7afa930ddc5bcac02b15 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Katherine_Pullens_Friends--LorrainePleasants_LouiseDickerson.jpg 0744c5692c69b7f277adbff11efbda5e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Bertha_and_Moses_Pullens_circa1960s.jpg 17049c5de3d8e8b7c185f86a79776101 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Katherine_Pullens_circa1982.jpg bc06155b47ed41f5c93ffa24bc0757f5 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Katherine_Pullens_03-24-08_no3.jpg 79174652200ed71a10f8ecaff69065dc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2664/Pullens_Katherine_Oral_Histories.pdf 28a45c30bca606765329da447fcaef4a PDF Text Text Interviewee: Katherine Pullens Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Grace Meyer CL: Good morning, my name is Carla Lewis and I’m the Gainsboro Branch manager. The date is March the 24th and I am in the home of Ms. Katherine Elaine Pullens. The person that I’m interviewing is Katherine. We’re located on 551 McDowell Avenue, in Roanoke, Virginia. Ms Pullens, good morning. KP: Good morning. CL: Can you give me some background information and first I would like to know where and when were you born. KP: Well a woman doesn’t tell her age but I was born August the 14th, 1925 in the old borough hospital. CL: Ok, how long have you lived in the Gainsboro area? KP: Take away fifteen years and the rest of the time was spent in the Gainsboro area. CL: Can you tell me the streets you lived on? KP: Yes, first Rutherford Avenue northwest, then McDowell Avenue northwest in the five hundred block, then Harrison Avenue in the six hundred block, then back to Chestnut Avenue in the four hundred block, and now I’m back in the five hundred block of McDowell. CL: Very good, tell me about your parents and your brothers and your sisters. KP: Unfortunately, I had no siblings. But my mother was Bertha Wright Pullens, my Daddy was Moses Benjamin Harrison Pullens. My mother often teased him about his name. My mother was the daughter of slaves and she was the youngest of fifteen children. Her father, of course as a slave, never learned to read and write, but his memory was outstanding. Her mother, of course, never learned to read and write, but she could measure for cooking in the palm of her hand. CL: Now did you have any extended family members living nearby? KP: Well, my mother had brothers and sisters here in Roanoke and my daddy had one sister who lived here and then in later years, after his niece returned from Washington, she lived here because he only had one niece on his side. CL: Ok can you remember any of the names of your aunts and uncles? KP: Of course. CL: All right! KP: The girls, aunt Kate was the oldest girl, she was number three in the line of fifteen. Aunt Henrieta was next to my mother and I don’t know what her number was but she was passed ten because I think she probably was twelve or thirteen. And my mama. Now they had five other sisters who died in infancy or early childhood, so I don’t know their names. Her brothers, James Wright was Lily Mitchel’s father. John Wright lived near the Gainsboro Branch library, down on the second house on the other side of the street passed Jefferson Avenue, a big white house. She had another brother named Thomas Wright and he lived next door to us on Rutherford Avenue an 516. Her youngest brother, Edmund Wright, lived on Fairfax and he was the father of Ed Wright �who used to be with aristocrats. She had a brother named Willy, he lived in Pennsylvania and I don't know where he was on the list. She had another brother named Greene and I think that's all I can, yes that’s seven brothers and five girls. CL: Thank you, describe your home life for us, your house was it brick, or did you have a garden? KP: My daddy had a garden in the country where he owned a little plot of land near his parents. I was an only child, my mother was thirty when I was born and my daddy was thirty five. So I was kept like this, I dare not go off the porch if she said stay on the porch. And I think I got a whipping every day and I told her once that I was gon tell my daddy. When my daddy came I looked like a lil zebra because she had really whipped me then she told me “tell your daddy”. I didn’t have anything to tell him. CL: I understand. What kind of activities did you participate in in the neighborhood? KP: What are you talking about? Mrs. Dorinda Charleton tried to teach us to play cards, I was very dumb so I didn’t learn very much. Even after I started teaching, she tried again and I still didn’t learn to play. She was trying to teach us to play Bridge and that was too far above us. We did learn to play bid whist and pinochle a little bit, but that was it. We visited only the people who lived near us, Janince Hilton and her family lived across the street but they were too young. So it was Louise Logan, Constance Johnson, Eunice Hamlar, Minnie Harper, and her brother Buster, me and Dorothy and Ina Charleton. We didn’t go across the Fifth Street, oh no, you had to stay within your own block. We had parties with crackers and peanut butter or jelly. We didn’t know about the parties that kids have today. CL: Ok, what kind of work did your father do and what kind of work did your mom do? KP: Well mama was a stay at home mother but the four years I was in college she worked at Mr Hale’s cleaning and pressing shop on Henry Street. When I finished college, of course she came back home. My dad was the chauffeur for American Viscose Corporation. I was very proud of him because he only finished third grade but he could work my math while I was in school. He could do a lot of things that, and you wouldn't believe it but his daddy was a teacher but his mother was sickly as they called it then and so he always was the one “papa let me stay with mama and take care of her”. CL: Ok, let’s talk about your education now, tell us where you went to elementary school, for instance, did you have to walk to school, was the school nearby, were the teachers nearby and where was your school in conjunction with your house? KP: I lived on Rutherford Avenue, I crossed the alley and I was at Harrison elementary school. I came home for lunch because there was no cafeteria and there was no point in carrying a lunch across the alley, so I came home for lunch. And sometimes some of my friends would come with me and of course we didn’t have a whole lot but if we had a bologna sandwich that was pretty good. CL: Did you ever stay home when it snowed? KP: What are you talking about? Our teacher, my sixth grade teacher, Mrs. Sally Lawson would tell us when we went home for lunch “ tell your mama to send me a can of condensed milk” or �"tell your mama to send me a can or cup of sugar or whatever” and then when we got back she would make snow cream. All she had to do was raise the window and cup down and get the snow and of course we all had our little bowls, you wouldn’t think they were plastic cups or anything they were just our bowls. CL: And you talked about college, did you attend four years of college during that time? KP: Well I went to high school first, I went to Addison. I finished Addison in forty two and I was very proud of my class because we gave Addison the official seal, anything that you see that has the Addison seal was a gift of the class of nineteen forty two. I finished in February and my mother paid a whole five dollars for me to go back to school from February until June and that’s when I took the second part of typing. And that stood me well when I got to college because believe it or not I was secretary to the dean of women and I used my typing because she did not want someone who took shorthand. She wanted her letters done in long hand and then typed. So I was able to do that. I made the enormous salary of ten dollars a month and then the last two years I got a raise. I went to the library, Carla, and I was working with accessioning books and I got fifteen dollars a month. That was really something. And of course when I graduated Virginia Union University owed me thirty seven dollars. CL: So your experience at Virginia Union University served you well? KP: Yes. CL: Ok. KP: And then I went to Howard for graduate work. Well I got a scholarship when I graduated from union to go to Howard but my daddy said “Baby, I can’t do another year” because it only took one year to get the masters at that time. So I came home, I got a job, I worked and I went back in the summers. And in the summer of fifty five I completed my work and the degree itself was conferred in fifty six. CL: When you say you completed your work, did you teach? KP: Well, oh yes, I taught relay religious education for three years in all of the black elementary schools. And then when reverend James R. Johnson Jr. was leaving Addison he recommended me to continue teaching bible there. And I taught bible there for several years as an elective, but in time it waned and because when I stopped teaching weekday religious education Madalyn O'hair was at the height of her, whatever she was doing. And then kids began to sort of lose interest and so I started teaching English and history because my major both in college and in graduate school was in English. And I could teach history also. CL: Ok, and you were able to go back to Howard and complete your masters degree? KP: The summers of forty nine, fifty, fifty one, fifty two, fifty three, fifty four, and I finished it in fifty five. But fifty five was a terrible summer because the transportation, I left Roanoke on a Sunday afternoon and I arrived in Washington about eight o’clock that night. And the transportation system of Washington D.C. went on strike on midnight that night and I had to use taxis for the whole six weeks that I was there. But I had a girlfriend whose husband worked at one of the auto dealers in the summer, he taught auto mechanics in the regular school year. And I had a cousin, so between the two of them I was able to cash my checks and stay because the �college would not cash my checks. They would accept them for my bill but they would not cash any of the checks. CL: Let’s go back to your home life again and let’s see, did you have radio, television, telephone, refrigerator? Did you have any of those things or did you use other means? KP: Well we had an ice box and you had a card that you’d stick out on the front that said twenty five fifty, I don’t think it went beyond fifty pounds because most of the boxes would not hold more than fifty pounds at a time. And then of course you had a little pan underneath to catch the water when the ice melts. Television, how many years had I been teaching before we got television? Radio, yes we had one little radio for the whole family and everybody sat around it and listened. And my mother loved her stories, Ma Perkins, I can’t think of the names of the others but I definitely remember Ma Perkins, because she even gave recipes from Spry, which is similar to Crisco. CL: Ok, so you didn’t have telephone? KP: Oh yes, but you see we had party lines and with the party line, once my mother was talking to someone and they had talked about someone who was dead, and the person on the other, one of the other persons one the line said “Who did you say was dead?”. They kept up with whatever and you could not get them off and nobody could afford a private line so everybody had party lines. CL: Alrighty, I understand that, now did you all sit on the front porch in the afternoons and talk to your neighbors? KP: I didn’t like to sit on the porch but my mama sat on the porch and that’s how they visited. They did not go in and out of eachothers homes and they weren't angry, you know Ben Franklin said “Fences make good neighbors” and so they talked across the porches. CL: Very good, what chores did you have to do around the house? You said that you were an only child but did you have chores to do around the house? KP: Are you kidding? Before I was tall enough to wash dishes my daddy got a box, and I had to stand on the box and wash dishes. Because I was little, I had to dust everything that was low and I didn’t know that there was such things as mops when you went ot scrub, because you got your scrub rag, not a sponge, a rag and your bucket and your Chipso or whatever and you scrubbed on your knees. And you didn’t avoid the corners either, you had to do the whole thing. CL: Ok, did you all have stories that were passed down from one generation to the next generation. Or recipes that were passed down, you know how when families would gather around during Christmas and different times and tell stories or Sunday afternoons, did you all have stories that you told from generation to generation. KP: I remember just one story that my mother told of her dad. One of her brothers, I think the one that lived near Gainsboro Library, had a grandson and he wasn’t doing well in school so his father carried him over to the country to live with the grandparents. That was fine and everyday when he came home from school grandpa would ask him the question “June, what did you learn today?” and the first day he said “The turkey says gobble gobble gobble”. The second day grandpa asked him and the answer was the same. The third day the answer was the same and �grandpa said “I swear on god if you don’t come to me with something different than the turkey said gobble gobble gobble I’m gonna whip you”. And my mother often said that there were just the three of them at home together, the other kids were old. And each Sunday they would have to read three chapters of the bible to grandpa. He couldn’t read and so they knew that they had him and they would sometimes skip over. He didn’t know what it was but he knew it wasn’t what they were saying. So they would have to go back and correct. He never, his memory was just outstanding, he brought produce to the market on Friday and people called him uncle Friday. He never forgot anything that anybody asked him to bring back. CL: He didn’t have to write it down, he remembered it. KP: He couldn’t write it down. And from his house to Roanoke was eleven country miles. Now for him to remember what each person told him to bring back, and I just admired that and when we, the grandchildren, learned to recite bible verses, oh that just delighted him so. But I have to tell you one little thing about grandpa. CL: Please do, and what was his name? KP: Wesley Wright, grandma was sick and so the three girls were taking a week over at a time to take care of their mother. So they lived where there was red mud, and I was with mama that time, and grandpa had a big bed and you don’t know anything about counter pains but that was their name for spreads. And they were made of different, of heavier material. And I had been playing outside in all of this red mud and grandpa put me in the middle of his bed and I walked all other that counter pain. My mama was so angry with me and grandpa told her, you ain’t got nothing to do but wash it. And you know I walked, then, all over but ask me what happened when I got home, just ask me what happened when I got home. I didn’t try that anymore. CL: Oh no, I’m sure you didn’t. What businesses did you shop, were there businesses that you could go to to shop? KP: My mama would take me down to Montgomery Ward or Sears or Philip Levi on the market, that was just a nice little store that you could get shoes. And when I graduated from Addison my white shoes came from Philip Levi, Levy, whatever you wanted to call it. But they weren’t expensive, but my uncle Tommy and his wife gave me a pair of shoes from Bush Flora, that’s what they gave all of the nieces when they graduated, a pair of shoes from Bush Flora because you know we hadn’t had any shoes from Bush Flora before. CL: So that was a real treat, wasn’t it. KP: Right, right. CL: Ms Pullens what kind of businesses did the African Americans have? KP: Oh that is really something that bothers me. If you’ll allow me, I’m just going to read you some of them. CL: That’s fine. KP: We had three pharmacies, Dr John Brooks, Dr Efrum Robertson, and Dr B.A. Adams; and they were in different areas of the city. Dr Brooks was on Henry Street. Dr Robertson was at the corner of what we called Claytor’s drug store. And Dr Adams was in north east, now he did come over to the community drug store that is just before you go across the Henry Street bridge, �but originally he was in north east so you had those pharmacies there. Physicians, Dr J. H. Roberts, Doctor W. C. Yancey, L. C. Downing, G. H. Moore, junior and senior, Maynard Law, J. B. Claytor senior and junior, F. W. Claytor, I. D. Burrell, and S. F. Williman. For plumbers you had Maxy Rayford and Walter Wheaton. We didn’t know anything about kindergarten than school. There were private kindergartens, Ms Andy Means, Ms Louise Wright, Ms Lucy __(?), Mrs Gertrude Jones, Mrs Debbie Anne Hunter, Mrs Thelma Johnson, and Mrs Paige. Private Kindergartens, and I didn’t hear anybody complaining about what the children learned back then. We had a nursery school, but that was at Gregory and that had Mrs Mayword Dupry and Mrs Chauny Cooper, they were sisters. And then finally they built a nursery across from the new Addison, but there was an explosion at the dump and that building just lost its life, it was gone. For the grocers and there is not a black grocery store in the neighborhoods anywhere, B. H. Hale, A. S. Williams, Roberta Basket, W. O. Hitman, Roscoe Banks, Elly Sidnaw, Moses Lipscim, E. P. Neighbors, and H. Thomas and H. Spencer. Scattered all through the neighborhood, I say that we lost a lot of things when we got integrated because we forgot about the people who had been our lifeline when we couldn’t go anywhere else. We had our own bands and the aristocrats lasted longer than anybody else. But Johnny Lockwell had a band and so did Gene Jones. Dentists, Dr W. A. Fears, Dr E. R. Dudley, H. T. Penn, L. E. Paxton, Theodore Banks, John Cundiff, Wendell Butler, Walter Claytor, E. D. Downing, and G. P. Downing. They’re all gone, and that’s just a part of the group. Attorneys, you don't have a single attorney in private practice, Jacob Reed, Wilmer Dillard, Reuben Lawson, George Lawrence, Oliver Arnold, David Woodlock, and Clarence Newson. And David Woodlock and Clarence Newson were younger lawyers, they were in college with me, but to think we don’t even have anybody from that era in business. Taxi companies, you didn’t have to call yellow cab, called Hunt or B. P. W.. Restaurants: Gills on Norfolk Avenue, then Gill and Finny’s on Henry Street, then Staples, then Dell’s, then Chili Beans. And Chili Beans was good for the Addison students because they would assume certain responsibilities and just walk on over to Chili Beans for hot dogs. Tourist homes, Calvin’s, Moore Reynolds, Pine Oak Inn. Recreation facilities, where your family, (unintelligible), was Dreamland and on top of the hill opposite the school was Royal Gardens, and that’s where the pool was. Tailors, Paige Crighton, Zach Taylor, (?), (?), and Pendleton. Who can you get to make you a suit now? Contractors, James Williams, Jess Brown, Grant Willson. We even had a photo studio, Mr Herman Clark right there at the end of Gainsboro on Gilmer Avenue. Watch repairing, William Widington. Who repairs your watches now? Music school, Troy P. Gorum. Shoe repair shops, Ernest Greene, Man’s, Ragsdale, and Poke. And I forgot to put Dunaville there because Dunaville’s little repair shop was on Rutherford Avenue and my mama would even let me walk up there to carry my shoes. Service stations, Claytor’s, Ford’s, Williamson. The YMCA and the YWCA, William A. Hunt (unintelligible). I haven’t finished yet, I’m still going strong. CL: Please continue, this is so fascinating. KP: For entertainment promoters, Chris Mars and Arthur Rothca. Beauty supply, Norwood Coals, you hear about Sally’s now but what about Norwood Coals. Kaiser music shop. There were two theaters, the Virginia Theater and the Lincoln. Now these two really are interesting. �Jerry the popsicle man and the pie man. I don’t remember what his name was but he would go with his little basket with pies and that man could really make a pie, I’m here to tell you. First Baptist Church had a Sunday school orchestra, the two Charletons, Ina and Dorothy’s daddy and his brother Elmon Crocker and Mrs Lucy Stratton directed their Sunday school orchestra. There was a program on radio station WDBJ it was called the back home devotional hour and there were three ministers reverend A. L. James was from First Baptist church, reverend James R. Johnson was from Ebenezer Amity church, and then I don’t remember the name of the presbyterian minister. But they were on every Wednesday night. The two major employers in the city always had noon day religious services for their workers Norfolk and Western and American Viscose. You might have needed some money but we didn’t have paydays at that time. But J. L. Reed and H. E. Johnson had Magic City Building and Loan right there on Gilmer Avenue. Jones’ Candy Kitchen. Mr Dan Jones could make the best peanut brittle you’d want to put in your mouth and it was right there where Chili Beans took over that little spot. We had Prunter and Prunter Cleaners and I think we had maybe nine. Funeral homes, C. C. Williams, W. F. Hughes, Citizens Undertaking Establishment, and Jordan’s Funeral Home. Four and now you barely have two. Herman Paxton Drum and Bugle Corp, you never heard of that one. Elinor Acres was the youth majorette and Alfansa Edwards was the youth Major. Then Mrs Addy Lipscim was the adult majorette and Mr Dan Jones was the adult major. And then we had parades in the black neighborhood for elks and whatever, moses, but they all used Herman Paxton Drum and Bugle Corp. We had a laundry and Christine Paine’s mama was one of the co-owners, it was called Swan White Hand Laundry, Mrs Annebelle Tielen and Mrs Maude Davis, it was over on Park Street just before you got to Loudon. We had a beauty school, Mrs Anne Rosemund at the beauty school and that was in north east, where Commonwealth and Fourth Street sort of came together. And then of course you know we had beauticians and that was just, these are just some of the things that I thought of that Roanoke has lost. Now surely there are more. CL: My, my, my. Wow, do you remember any of the entertainment that came into the Dumas? KP: Oh no, I didn’t go to anything like that. You didn’t know my mama. No, but I do remember going to the Roanoke Theater and having to go to the back and climb all those steps but I could buy my ticket at the front. That was as far as I got, the Leal Home was down on Harrison Avenue, has anyone told you about the Leal Home? That was where the folks went to dance and they had a good time. On Harrison Avenue before you get to Gainsboro, do you remember where those houses were on the right hand side going west? CL: Mm hm, I sure do. KP: Well that’s where the Leal Home was, it was, there was, I know you saw a vacant lot in between some of those, that’s where the old Leal Home was and you better not go there but you sure could kinda listen and see what was. And oh, the African Americans had a real big social club called The Bings, they were only men and you weren’t anybody if you didn’t get an invitation from The Bings and sometimes their dances were right there at Leal Home. CL: The Bings. KP: B-I-N-G-S �CL: Wow, well this is really fascinating, who are some of the strong community leaders? I know you said you were really proud of your father and the ministers.. KP: Well he wasn’t a community leader. CL: Were the ministers the leaders at that time? KP: Yeah, I can think of one of our former pastors, Reverend P. S. Mosely, he was tall, he was just as straight as an arrow and he always had his big ol’ cigar in his mouth and he walked through Henry Street and Gainsboro, our church was still on Gainsboro at the time, and he was friendly with those people, if there were the (unintelligible) so what? He talked to them and when it was time for him to go to conference they were giving him their conference money. They didn’t belong to our church but they knew that he needed conference money and they helped him. And he was of a gracious person. Rev. P. M. Cauldwell, people didn’t know in a sense what church he belonged to because anybody that needed his help, he was ready to help them. And when I talked with his daughter after they went to Virginia Beach, some people wanted to know if he was an employee of the hospital because they always saw him in the hospital. But he said if anybody needs my help, I’ll go. I guess lawyer Lawson was very active so far as the community was concerned. And I don’t think they were as much in the community, ya know the programs and concerns but they were very concerned in the medical world, so I don’t think they (unintelligible) themselves that much, but now you see what Walter has done since. He spread himself out beyond the field of dentistry. CL: How did the Gainsboro Branch library play a part in the community? Virginia Y. Lee was a librarian for a while there, was she a librarian while you were there? KP: Yeah but there was another one before her, Ms Preston, I don’t remember what her first name was because we didn’t have her first name, we would just, Ms Preston. And it was over in the basement where or on the first floor rather, that building right on the corner of Patton and Gainsboro. There was just one big room but it was a library and Ms, M. I. Protor’s sister, Bowdon, was the librarian. CL: So were you available or were you around when Mrs Lee was there also? KP: Oh yes, she even did a lot of speaking through the various churches and so forth. She spoke at ours and that was the one place I could go, I could go to the library CL: And you still can come to the library. KP: Yes but the problem now is I’m not driving. But I was even a member of the Jessie Faucet reading club when I first came back. CL: Very good, I remember reading about that. KP: You did? CL: How was your life affected by segregation and the civil rights movement? KP: It was funny because white people entrusted their most precious possessions to black people, and that was their children. And to me that was just pure funny because the people could’ve done anything to those children that they wanted, and yet the children realize those were their real mothers. I’m not gon say that all black people loved them to the extent that they just loved and loved them but they knew how to, even punish them and yet the parent’s wouldn’t know. If you �remove a child’s shoes and beat the bottom of his feet, then put his socks and shoes back on, you have no welts, you have nothing. American Viscose had a dormitory for women who came here to work in the plant. It was on ninth street just above where the bridge is now. And there were black women who worked in the dormitory, housekeepers, and of course they had the cafeteria there too because that was their home while they were working. But then if you hear some of them talk about what they did, if the girls were not very kind to them, suppose you were sick and I have to bring your food, I could put something in it. And I have been told by some who actually worked there that they would spit in it, so you really don’t know. I mean that was just pure funny that you entrust the most precious thing that you have to these people that you don’t like. Of course the water fountains in the stores one said black and one said white and of course the blacks would spit in the white and keep going. You couldn’t go to the counter and buy candy, if anybody else was there, you had to wait until everybody had been served, if there were white people there, and then you got your candy. You couldn’t sit down and eat, if you got it you better get out of there with it, if you wanna eat. While I was in Virginia Union one of my very good friends and I decided to dress up one Saturday and we went downtown and we did our own little something. And she was studying Spanish and I was studying French, and I didn't know what she was saying and she didn’t know what I was saying, and we went and stood by a water fountain and we were just speaking in our foreign languages. And so finally one of the clerks came over and of course we could not speak good English, so she says “White? Black? You turn the thing on the bottom and the water come out the same, what the difference?” Her face turned as red as a beat, she couldn’t answer us. Well what is the difference, there was no difference, it was just water. I had experiences though at Tri-C when I was sent to Mississippi to interview another person for a position at the college. Of course she was black and they wanted her but they said they couldn’t, she said she didn’t have money to come for an interview and they said they could not give her money because they hadn’t given anybody else money to come for an interview. But they said we can send you and they did. And oh of course I knew I was looking good that morning, I was going on, I had to change in Atlanta and then when I got to Jackson, Mississippi, oh I um in my best voice nd I went to the person who was selling tickets and I told him “I’m representing Cuyahoga Community College and I’ve come for an interview for a young person and I’d like a conference room please”. And he said “Well we don’t have any conference rooms, how long do you think you’ll be”, “Probably an hour”, so he said “well the vice president isn’t here right now and they’re going to have lunch at”, well he gave the time, and so he said “Well I’ll let you go in his office and have your interview as long as you be out within an hour”. Oh yes, we were sitting in there laughing. Of course I had questions to ask and they had told me “If you think she will work well with the faculty and so forth in the English department you give her the” oh they didn’t call it contract, they called it the word is on the tip of my tongue and it won’t come out. “So if you don’t think so, don’t give it to her, bring it back”. Proffer. I was very much pleased with the young lady, I gave her the proffer, she signed it. Now nine thousand dollars doesn’t sound like much today, but trust me to take a nine thousand dollar proffer. So after we had finished we really did do the interview first, but then when we were finished she said �“Kathy, let’s walk all through and let them see us coming out”, that’s what we did. But I had a terrible experience going back to Cleveland. Hurricane Audrey was having her say and when we got to Atlanta and got ready to board the plane, it was raining so hard when we got there that morning there was a man standing at the bottom of the steps, they didn't have covered walkways at that time, so he was standing at the bottom of the steps with umbrellas. But when I got ready to come back that wind was so high that the umbrella would do you no good. So he would open the door and let two or three people out and by the time you got to the tops of the steps, he’d open the door and let somebody else out until all got on and that was a bumpy ride. But that young lady stayed with the college until this past december when she retired. I went when she was, when she was fifty she had her, she gave herself a birthday party she said “I’m not married, I don’t see him, Im gon have myself a party”. So I went for her fiftieth birthday party. Then last year, in ‘06 she got married and I went for her wedding and it was just marvelous to see how she had had two sabbaticals while she was there. She was working on her doctorate but she said “I’m not gonna” but there's still extra information and so forth and I don’t know, I know she was an associate professor, I don’t know if she made full professor or not. But one year I was supposed to teach black literature and unfortunately that was the quarter that my hands got so I couldn’t write on the board. So I had to take the quarter off but some of the other people in the department had said “Johnny do you think Kathy can teach black literature?” and she said, she just (unintelligible) she said “Kathy’s forgotten more black literature than some of us know”. But anyway she taught black literature some and she taught the higher composition courses and I mean she is just an excellent teacher. CL: And where did she retire from? KP: She retired from Cuyahoga Community College. She’d been there thirty, she came in ‘72. CL: Wow, very interesting. Ok now I’m gonna go down to businesses and ask do you remember when the Silk Mill closed? KP: Yes, very well. I can’t tell you the year but my daddy worked at American Viscose and many of his cousins worked at American Viscose. And that was a very devastating situation because it was almost impossible for them to get jobs because most of the black men, I don’t know about the whites, but most of the blacks were beyond thirty five and the policy was not to hire anyone beyond thirty five. So some of them worked at double envelope and some worked at the city hall doing lawn care, things of that sort. You know what that was like, a real come down from what they had been, but that’s the only kind of jobs that they could get. CL: At that time. Mrs Pullens I would like to thank you for this interview and I would like to just say, to ask if there is anything else you would like to tell me? Anything that you can think of that we have not talked about that you would just like to say “Carla I just need to leave this information”. Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you would like to say to us before we close this interview? KP: I think we have to, as black people, look at what we have lost, so often we think we gained everything with integration but I’m not so sure that we gained everything. I look at our students now, it bothers me, we don’t have truant officers now but doctor L. E. Paxton’s mother rode a �motorcycle as a truant officer and people were just as afraid of her as if they were, as if she were a real officer. You know these kids fear nobody and nothing, but if Ms Paxton were after you, you try to kinda get out of her way. And I’m not so sure that teachers today, certainly not all of them, aren’t enamored with the idea of go day, come day, god’s day, payday. If you, I had worked twenty five years and that was the last year that I worked in Roanoke. That was the first year that I made ten thousand dollars. But there was a love teaching and a love of children, and you were so concerned about their hearafters. You might look at a child and you never thought that that child was beyond help. But I’m not so sure that that’s the same attitude and the parents were backups. Look at your parent teacher associations, they don’t participate, Christine Paine’s mama was a member of the Addison PTA and she didn’t have chick nor child then, but she was interested in the children. There were other people who were interested and they still worked with PTA. Even though now they call it PSTA, but that still doesn’t make anybody else work. I think I have said enough. CL: Well I certainly do thank you and once again we will have this at the Roanoke Public Library, Virginia Room, and also the Gainsboro Virginia Y. Lee section. So I do thank you for all your help and information and I look forward to hearing this again. Thank you Ms. Pullens. KP: Thank you, Carla. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Katherine Pullens Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Katherine Pullens Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 24 March 2008 Location: Private residence of Katherine Pullens Total Duration: 57:40 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 24 March 2008 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Katherine Pullens; Carla Lewis Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PullensKatherine https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2663/HudginsShirley_18_June_2007.mp3 04a64eb0627a16bb72ba81d4fd251274 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2663/hudginsshirley.pdf 4557220ed820057c95bd8e43c53b2a22 PDF Text Text MEMORIESOF ROANOKE By Shirley Hudgins I will start with an event I don't actually remember, but was reminded of it a lot. Mama a nd Daddy took me to Elmwood Park. The year was 1936 an.d I was only 4 years old. I disobeyed and was running down the hill and I fell and broke my collar bone. I had to wear a brace a, a board across my chest and another across my back. My sister said when I would cry she had to rock me, so she would never forget it. $0 much for Elmwood Park although I can't imagine Roanoke without it. Oh yes, I remember downtown Roanoke. I took piano lessons from a Ms. utt who lived in Grandin Court. I would catch the bus on "Old Hollins Road" and walk about a mile because we didn't have bus service at my home place. I would pay 5!t to go downtown and get a ~ transfer for the bus to Grandin Court. Upon returning I would do the same thing -5!t bus fare and free transfers. I can still remember standing at the city market building waiting for the bus and the smell of the hot dogs at the Roanoke Weiner Stand across the street and it was almost too much to stand. At that time the hot dogs were 10!t and I rarely had the money to buy one. In downtown Roanoke there was a Harris cleaners on the corner. My mother worked there for a while. She would give me fifteen cents and I would go to the downstairs lunch counter at Kress 5 & dime for a sundae. We had a lot of "5 & dimes" (That's what they were called at the time) Woolworth's, Grant's and McClellan's. Also, there was a Standard Drug Store on Campbell Ave. Daddy would buy us candy and I will never forget the green & white box it came in. There was a Pugh's Department Store downtown. It had a "Toyland" department. Toyland was never opened until the day after Thanksgiving to ring in the Santa Claus season. One of my favorite places was the S & W cafeteria. Whenever my aunt & uncle from Kentucky came to visit, they would take us there and then take us to !'Guy's" for a Frosted Malt. There were several movie theaters -Rialto (western movies), American & Jefferson Theaters. When my husband and I were dating, we would go to the American Theater on Sunday afternoons. Up on Jefferson Street was the Patrick Henry Hotel. I spent the first night of our honeymoon there. Of course, I'll never forget that! �Oh yes, the corner of Jefferson & Campbell Ave. was the Colonial American Bank. A Mr. Jonas was the manager and was very nice. I went in there many times with my mother. At the time, the big, beautiful clock outside would chime. Then, there's the Old American Legion Auditorium. It's long gone but the memories are still very much alive as my husband and I went to many dances there. Even saw Fat's Domino perform. I'll always remember the Thanksgiving Day parades and the VMI & VPI football games. We didn't miss any of the Christmas Parades downtown. It would be cold and maybe snowing but we would bundle up and go. Victory Stadium, although it's gone, memories remain air over the Roanoke Valley. I remember hearing about the Dedication Service. Movie star, Greer Garson, attended and that was quite an honor for the City of Roanoke. Another Victory Stadium memory was 1973 and I forget who they were playing, but, if was William Flemings homecoming and our daughter, Dee-Dee, was Homecoming Queen. Can you imagine the pride her father and I felt as she came riding into the stadium atop a convertible -Unreal!! Of course, the Norfolk & Western Railroad was a big part of our lives. My Dad worked there for 52 years and we could ride the train for free. We took many trips! My husband, Bo Hudgins, worked there also for 42 years. He was Foreman of the Machine Shop -East End Shops. His hometown was Crewe, on the main line to Norfolk so riding free, the kids and I took a lot of trips. I would take the kids down to meet Bo when he got off work. At 3:30 the whistle would blow and in a few minutes he would come across the bridge. Nothing sounded any better than the N & W whistle at3:30. A lot of memories of Mr. Peanut on Jefferson Street. I have fond memories of the Texas Tavern on Church Ave. There's a sign in there -"We seat 1,000 customers, 10 at a time" -How unique! I have been so blessed to have been born and raised to be a member of the Hollins Road Church of the Brethren. It's a great church and I'm so proud to be a lifetime member. I could go on and on about this wonderful city and it has been and continues to be the greatest place to live in the world. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2663/HudginsShirley.1.jpg a87a37b6e9e2f54e30315b66ffba7199 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Shirley Hudgins Subject The topic of the resource Hollins Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Shirley Hudgins Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 18 June 2007 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 23:41 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 June 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shirley Hudgins; Alicia Sell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HudginsShirley https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2662/GarlandRobert_[compressed].mp3 158756f6a6a43aa07dbeb06021451bf9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2662/GarlandRobert.pdf c4e81ee97962dedc88fe28bdf40dec64 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Robert Allen Garland Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: My name is Alicia Sell and today is June 12, 2007, and I am interviewing Mr. Robert Allen Garland at his home on Lakewood Drive. Thank you for joining us today Mr. Garland. RG: A pleasure to be here with you. AS: I'm going to start out by asking you some background questions about yourself, just some biographical information. RG: OK. AS: Can you tell us when and where were you born? RG: I was born on February 3, 1923, at 373 Walnut Avenue Southwest in Roanoke, Virginia. AS: So you were born on Walnut Avenue, at home? RG: Correct. At home. AS: What were your parents' names? RG: My father was Walter Berman Garland and my mother was Minnie Allen Garland. AS: Did you have brothers and sisters? RG: I had an older brother, he was a junior, Walter B. Garland, Jr. He was 4 years older than me. He was born in 1919 and my younger brother, Ray Lucian Garland was born on May 20, 1934. AS: So just the three boys? RG: Correct. AS: Did you have any extended family living nearby to you here in Roanoke? RG: My uncle and his – He had one child. Yes, several of my father's siblings lived here. He was the youngest of that family which I think was about 8. But I know he had several brothers that lived here from time to time and 2 or 3, I believe 3 of his sisters. So, his family grew up in Buchanan and they kinda migrated to Roanoke and some of 'em lived here from the time they arrived here probably in the early 1900s until they died. AS: So your father was born in Buchanan, Virginia? RG: Yes, yes. AS: Where was your mother from? RG: My mother was born in Goochland County, which is out in the country, approximately 50 miles I guess from Richmond at that time. AS: What did your mother and father do for a living? RG: My father, after they were married, when they were married on October 25, 1915, and they moved to Roanoke. My father went to work for a drug store which was then on the corner of Campbell Avenue and Randolph Street. Randolph Street is now Williamson Road. He went to work there behind the soda fountain and then finally bought half interest in the store from a Mr. Clore. The store was originally known as Clore's Pharmacy and then Clore and Garland. And then my father bought out Mr. Clore, I believe in the early 20's and then he owned that store until it was closed in 1950 or early 1950s. AS: Did your father have any trouble with business during the depression? RG: Oh yes. That story that I gave you about the market area tells much about the Depression Era and yes, it was very difficult and it was a little drug store compared to the ones today. During the Depression, he was able to make it but it was difficult and I can remember going down there as a child, a young child and later as a teenager, and it wasn't downtown Roanoke at that time. It was not very brisk. There was not much business downtown but most of the business that people did in those days was done downtown. The marketing and the purchasing because there was no shopping centers. The Grandin Road area was about the only shop – and the Crystal Spring area – they were small business areas at that time. But no massive business like shopping malls that you have today. 1 �0.05.26.6 AS: Can you describe your house that you grew up in on Walnut Avenue? For instance, was it one story or two? Was it brick? RG: Of course, I only lived there for 2 years, my first 2 years. I think it must've been a duplex because my father's brother and his wife and they had one child, they lived there along with my older brother and my mother and father. So, I think it was a 2 story house. It has since been torn down so I can't really tell you much about it because I, of course, was only 2 when we moved from there. AS: What street did you grow up on most of your childhood? RG: Bellville Road. AS: What was your house like on Bellville? RG: Bellville Road was a very nice – It was a new house when we moved in. I lived there from 1925 until I went to school. I went to Fork Union Military Academy in 1939. I lived there during that period which would've been 14 years. It was a very pleasant neighborhood and still is. In fact, that home is still in the Garland family. My older brother, Dickey, who became a physician and his wife and 3 children lived there and the widow, Eloise, still lives there. So the house has been in the Garland family from 1925 until the present. AS: And is that a 2 story house? RG: Its a 2 story house. It had only one bathroom. It had 3 bedrooms on the second floor and a sleeping porch. In those days, and my mother and father were great believers in sleeping porches even in the wintertime and cold time. We slept out there because they had the feeling that fresh air and cold was a healthy environment. AS: Would you and your brothers all sleep out there on the sleeping porch? RG: Oh yeah. I can remember sleeping there and the temperature in the dead of winter would be probably in the 20s or even below sometimes. We would always sleep out there and my mother would fix a hot water bottle for our feet. It would get cold during the night of course but we slept there, I imagine we had the stacks, as I remember, stacks of blankets on us in the cold weather. AS: Did you enjoy it? RG: Oh yeah. We slept there, as I remember, all during my childhood. There of course was no air conditioning. We slept out there. There was no heat on the sleeping porch. But that was the way people lived. I would imagine that most homes built during that period probably all had sleeping porches on them. This house doesn't but I think those houses built from 1900 to the 30's, probably most of 'em had sleeping porches. AS: Was that on the first floor? RG: No. The sleeping porch was on the second floor and on the back of the house. Your hallway and then a bathroom, then the 3 bedrooms came off the hallway and the sleeping porch was in the rear of the house. There was a door from the hallway to the sleeping porch. During the wintertime, of course, they would shut the doors so the cold air wouldn't come into the rest of the house. And the house was originally heated as I remember by coal and then, in the early 30s when oil furnaces first came out, my father had an oil furnace installed. That was really an innovation at that time because when you had coal, somebody had to shovel coal into the furnace and you had to order coal from the coal company and you had to have a big bin to keep the coal in in the basement. So the oil furnace was a very convenient utility for that period, during that period. Most of the homes in Roanoke up until the '30s, I would imagine most of 'em had coal. 0.11.03.6 AS: What kind of chores did you have around your house? RG: Well, I can't say that I had any regulated number of chores but my mother – We had a colored maid that – live in maid – that stayed there and so she helped my mother with the – her name was Katie. She came to work for us when she was only 12 years old. In those days, Roanoke City would 2 �assign these orphans to homes like ours and they got a small salary but they lived there, room and board and all. So Katie was there. She was kind of a nanny for me from the late 20s up until my brother came, my younger brother. Then, she was kind of a nanny for him. That's what they would call 'em now. I don't remember us calling her because she was just like a member of the family at that time. She took care of my younger brother until she left us which was probably around 1937. She would take him down to Grandin Road in the baby carriage. That's when all the maids where the families had babies, they would gather there on Grandin Road, approximately where my drug store was later. They would, I guess, compare babies and talk and all right there on the corner. Sometimes, I can remember, there would 8 or 10 baby carriages lined up there on the corner and Katie would take Petie – his nickname was Petie – and they would all gather there particularly on summer afternoons when the weather was good. AS: OK. RG: She lived there with us from the late, sometime in the 20s. I can barely remember her coming there and she left there in about '37 or '38, right along in that period. So she lived there all during that time. She had her own room and I know what my father paid her was very small because there wasn't a lot of money then in those days. But, she lived well there with us because we furnished all her clothing and room and board, everything. AS: Did she keep in contact with your family after she had left or? RG: No. She died. She died shortly after she left us. She had some relatives out in West Virginia and she wanted to go out there. I think she was pregnant was the reason she left us. Because she would've been probably in her early 20s at that time. I believe she was pregnant and she went out there to have the baby and she died during childbirth. Yeah, that's the way it happened. Am I going into too much detail? 0.15.20.2 AS: No, you're fine. Let's talk about your education a little bit. Where did you go to Elementary school and high school? RG: The first 2 years, and it was changed shortly thereafter, Woodrow Wilson had just opened. So the first 2 years, the 1st and 2nd grade, I went to Woodrow Wilson. That was a junior high school. Now I can't explain why because the other students were all junior high school and why they would mix – evidently it had something to do with the crowded conditions at Virginia Heights. But anyway, the first 2 years was at Woodrow Wilson, the 1st and 2nd grades. And then, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th grade was at Virginia Heights Elementary School. And then, we went back to Woodrow for the 7th. In those years, and I think it must have something to do with the Depression or trying to get kids out so they could work, they eliminated the 8th grade. They didn't have an 8th grade. So, Woodrow Wilson, I spent the 7th, skipped to the 8th, then the 9th and the 10th was at Woodrow and then to Jefferson High School for the 11th grade. Then I went to Fork Union Military Academy for a year and a half and graduated there in 1940. AS: During 8th grade, what did you do since you were not in school? RG: We were in school, we just went from the 7th to the 9th grade. They just eliminated it. Just like it wasn't there. We weren't out of school. I didn't mean that. In other words, instead of going 12 years, we only went 11. So actually, that meant like today, you'd be getting out of school a year sooner in those days as opposed to now. In other words, you would graduate at 17 rather than 18 like it is today. AS: And you said you went to Jefferson and then to - ? RG: I went to Jefferson for probably a year or so and then I went to Fork Union Military Academy. I was there for about a year and a half. AS: Where is that located? RG: Its near or towards Richmond. Its about 60-some miles from Richmond. Its in Fluvanna County. It was like a prep school. I graduated there in 1940. 3 �AS: Did you go to college after that? RG: I went to college, medical college school of pharmacy in September, 1940 and was there from September of '40 until I went in the Army in March, 1943. Then I returned and I was in the Army from March of '43 'til March of 1946, then went back to the medical college in September of 1946 and then graduated in June of 1949. AS: And what was your degree in? RG: Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy. AS: Did both your brothers go to college as well. 0.19.17.0 RG: Oh yes. My older brother, he went to VMI from 1936 to 1940 when he graduated. He went to the University of Virginia Medical School for a year and then he dropped out I believe and taught at Staunton Military Academy. He got married after he went to college and he taught at Staunon Military Academy for a year and then he was called into the Army and served in the Army Air Corps. He was a meteorologist and then went on the flight school and he was in the Army I think until 1946 and then he returned to the University of Virginia Medical School in '46 and graduated in 1950 from the medical school, University of Virginia Medical School. And then he came back here and he interned over here at what was then Roanoke Memorial and Crippled Children's Hospital is what they called it in those days because that's where all the polio patients came. In fact, his year of internship, they had a polio epidemic. They called it “infantile paralysis” at that time. He was an intern over there during that period and they wouldn't let him go home or anything so he was there on duty, tending to – what they did was they shipped from all Southwestern Virginia and they had an epidemic up in I think Wytheville and up in that area. They transferred all of those patients to the Roanoke Memorial and Crippled Children's Hospital. That's what it was know as at that time. That was because of the fact that all the cases of polio were transferred there and in those days, they put them in what they call an iron lung. That's how they could continue breathing. So he interned there and then later opened a practice in Southeast and he practiced there for maybe 10 years and then it was just too much for him and he finally had to give it up. AS: Was education important to your family? Was it expected that you would go to school? RG: Oh yeah. All of us, all three of us – I got one degree on me but my brother, the older brother, he got a degree from VMI and then a medical degree. Then, while he was in the service, he got a degree in meteorology and he became a pilot. He was a very smart boy. After he came back and was practicing and then he gave up his practice – I think he got a Master's degree – but he had about 3 or 4 degrees. Then, my younger brother, he went to Roanoke College and University of Virginia. I believe he has 2 degrees. So I'm the one with only 1 degree. (chuckling) But we were all expected to go to college. AS: Let's see. What was your home life like? For instance, what did you do in the evenings? Did you listen to the radio a lot? RG: We did. Of course there was no television. But, we were very active there on Bellville Road. It was a lovely neighborhood. The neighbors were all nice and a lot of children were in that neighborhood. It was the type of neighborhood that you wouldn't lock your doors or anything like that. In the summers, we would play baseball, softball, either there in the street there on Bellville Road or in the backyard of our house. We had a ping-pong table in our basement. We'd have ping-pong tournaments. I remember during probably '35 approximately, that was when the game Monopoly came out. One of the neighbors got the game and we would spend literally all hours, all day – we would go down there early in the morning, play Monopoly all day long. We'd go home for lunch and go home for supper and we would play it until, oh, late at night. You see, you got to remember that was during the Depression and you were handling this toy money so it made 'em feel like powerful because nobody had any money to speak of. 4 �0.25.16.1 AS: Would adults play it also? RG: No. It was the children. We would have 4 or 5 children playing all day long practically. And that summer, there's no telling how many hours we spent just playing Monopoly. At night, I remember, summer nights we would play a game called “Capture the Flag”. That was the name of it. The idea of the game – I can't remember exactly – The idea of the game was, at the end of each block a person was supposed to be guarding the flag. You would choose up sides. The object was to try to capture the flag from the other teams. And then we played that many nights 'cause you could hide in the bushes and so forth. Then, there was a game called “Kick the Can”. I can't remember exactly how that was played but it had something to do with you would run and try to kick the can from the others and keep them from getting it and that sort of thing. We played a lot of softball and we usually ended up playing in the street 'cause there wasn't much traffic. The trees that lined Bellville there, they were kinda the bases and then you'd have something there for second base and home plate. But we'd play a lot of baseball. Also in our backyard, we played baseball. Then we had on our garage, we had a basketball hoop and we played basketball there. We'd choose up sides and teams and we'd play basketball. We had very active summers. We had a cousin on my mother's side, my first cousin, her sister's boy, would come up here every summer and spend the summer with us from Richmond and live there with us during the summer. He would play the games with us. It was a very nice neighborhood to grow up in. When it snowed, I remember – Of course, in those days, the streets, particularly the side streets would not be cleared. If you had a big snow, we would have sleds and we kept at the far end, the upper end of Bellville Road and we could sleigh ride all the way down to approximately our house. It was a nice neighborhood to grow up in. The neighbor's children were all well-behaved children. I can't remember any problems. Drugs would've been unheard of in those days. AS: What kind of businesses did your family shop at? 0.29.02.8 RG: I mentioned some of that in one of those articles that I got, one on the market. But, all the meat, mostly – see you didn't have these supermarkets – and the city market building, there were butchers lined up on both sides. What you have today is those retail lunch outlets in there. Well, in those days, there were butchers lined up on both sides. I would say, oh, probably 12 or 15 butchers. My mother would go in there and buy whatever meat we needed for the week I believe. Then the produce, the produce was purchased there on the market. The vendors were on each side of the market on the sidewalk. And the vendors were all lined up on both sides. I think there was one that had seafood, sold seafood, Kelly's I believe it was or Parker's maybe too. My mother would buy her fresh vegetables and fruits from those vendors on the outside of the market. They were covered but they were on the walkway where you could just walk down and buy your – see all your vegetables and fruits and all. She would buy the fruits and vegetables from them. Then there was a little mom and pop store, that's what it would be considered today, down in that block where my father had his drug store and that's where she bought her staples like coffee and sugar and stuff like that. AS: Were there clothing retailers downtown or did you go to those? RG: Oh yeah. At one time, I would say downtown Roanoke had 10 or 12 men's stores, sold nothing but men's clothing and more than that sold women's clothing. They had these shops, Lerner's had shops but I can remember like Davidson's which was down there then. There was John Norman and all. I counted them one day. It seemed like to me it was about 12. That's all they sold was men's clothes. They had one men's shop that sold nothing but hats but Lerner's and some of the other – Oh, they had Spiegel's, Foreman's and of course, Heironimus, there were 2 department stores, Heironimus and another one an independent – Well, Heironimus was independent then – N.W. Pugh. They were on the corner of – you know where the old Grand Piano building was? AS: Yes. 5 �RG: N.W. Pugh was in that building. That was a department store that was locally owned. And the Heironimus originally was on the other corner and then Heironimus later moved from there up to the corner of Church and Jefferson, you know where that still has the Heironimus AS: Still has the title on it. RG: During the 30s and I think on up into the 40s and maybe into the 50s, their store was on the corner of Campbell Avenue and Henry Street or 1st Street. That was Heironimus. And across the street was N. W. Pugh and they were very well-run department stores. And they were both locally owned. The Pugh family, they owned that. And they operated that up until probably into the 60s and they closed that. And when Heironimus moved, then – Were you here when Miller & Rhodes was here? AS: Mm mm. RG: OK. When Heironimus moved to Jefferson Street, then Miller & Rhodes, that's the department store that had headquarters in Richmond, they, uh, it seemed like they tore that building down and built a new building right there on the corner of Campbell and Henry Street. That was Miller & Rhodes and when the shopping centers opened, both Heironimus and Miller & Rhodes would have stores like on Melrose Avenue, Towers, Crossroads, they'd have stores in those shopping centers. AS: So it kinda put Pugh's out of business. 0.34.50.9 RG: Yeah. It was just – But Pugh's, during the time I was growing up, they did a very good business. My mother shopped there a lot I know. And at Christmastime, they would have a Santa Claus and, what they called “Pugh's Toyland”. It seems like it was on the 2nd or 3rd floor and they had a big toy department during Christmas. But when Christmas was over, they took that space for something else. I mean, in those days, toys weren't like they are today, kinda a year-round business. In those days, most toys were bought in December for Christmas and Santa Claus. I know when we were growing up, we would go to Pugh's Toyland and look at all the toys. AS: How did you travel about in Roanoke? How did you get to the stores? Did your family have a car? RG: Oh yeah. We had one car. Like on Bellville Road, I don't think anybody had over one car but some of those families had no cars in those days. Roanoke had, was very fortunate to have a very good streetcar system and then after that buses. They integrated the streetcars first and then buses and streetcars. The streetcars were discontinued and then they had nothing but buses. When I was growing up, I used the streetcar a lot if I went down to my father's drug store or went to a movie. See, the Grandin Theater was the only theater that was outside of the business district. All the other – There were 4 or – Let's see, there was Riralto, the American, the Park, the Roanoke and the Jefferson. There were 5 that I can remember and I'm sure before that, there were probably more. There were 5 movie theaters all during the 30s and 40s. Then, they started closing 'em in the 50s and now, there are none. The last one, I remember I attended the last movie show, I took my parents, the American. They were there – I don't guess you would've been here then. - The American Theater, you know where the First National Exchange Bank is, right on the corner? AS: Mm mm. RG: The American Theater they tore that down and they built that 12 story building where the American Theater was. The American Theater, and the Rialto which showed basically nothing but Western movies, that's where we went, as a child we went to a lot of the Western movies. Then there was the Park Theater. Jefferson was up on Jefferson, Park and Jefferson. Then there was the Roanoke Theater. At one time, there were 5 that I can remember in downtown Roanoke. AS: Did they just show movies or did they do plays too? RG: During my time, I don't think – No, the Roanoke Theater did show some. They did have some Vaudeville acts and magicians would come to Roanoke and they would appear on the stage. But Roanoke had the Academy of Music. Have you heard of that? 6 �AS: Mm mm. RG: That was located there on Salem Avenue about 4th Street, below 5th Street. It was on the – It was a shame the City Council allowed that to be torn down because it was built in the 1890s and that's where the Vaudeville, the operas, the plays and those sort of things. AS: Would your parents go out in the evening to those kinds of shows? 0.39.55.5 RG: They would on occasion. I can remember attending the – It was torn down in '53. I don't know why the preservationists and the historians allowed it to happen but the City Council claimed that the building was unsafe. So, the City Council voted and they tore it down. They say it had one of the best acoustics of any of those theaters that were built during that period. I can remember going there. My brother was at VMI during '36 and '40 and they came out with a play about VMI. It was written by a former student of VMI. It was called “Brother Rat”. It was a play originally. I remember going to the Academy of Music. They had a performance there at the Academy of Music. That was later converted to a movie and Ronald Reagan was in that movie. AS: Oh, OK. RG: Ronald Reagan was in that movie. In fact, my brother was at VMI when they were filming there. So, it was in '38 or '39. In fact, that's where Reagan met his first wife during that movie. They did a lot of the filming there at VMI and Reagan was of course a young actor at that time. But he – Eddie Albert was in it. Rackin (??) was in it. I remember it was a very popular movie of course around here because of VMI. It was a shame. That would've been a real landmark if they had kept it because it had those box seats. It reminded you of like the Ford's Theater up in Washington where Lincoln – That's what it reminded you of, kinda built like that. AS: Let's talk a little bit about once you came back from college. What kind of work you did throughout your life? RG: OK. I graduated in June, 1949. At that time, my father had I think about 10 small drug stores throughout the city. Two of the stores were downtown. One on Campbell which is in this article that you've got. There was another one on the corner of Jefferson Street and Salem. Then the others were scattered throughout the city and the residential areas. One was on Grandin Road there in that business area. So, when I got out of college, I went to the store on Grandin Road and opened up a prescription department. At that time, it was just a kinda patent medicine store. So, at that time, when I came back we opened a prescription department in that store. That would've been in September of '49. I operated at that location until '52. Then we built – we purchased the land across the street. There was a home on it. We had to tear down the home and we built the store what is now Independent Pharmacy. Are you familiar with Grandin Road? AS: Yeah. 0.44.35.3 RG: It was across the street from the old store, that building where the bank is. Originally there was a bank and then the drug store. That's where we were and then there was a flower shop on the corner. We moved there from across the street in 1952. In fact, Valentine's Day. We opened on Valentine's Day in 1953, excuse me, yeah, Valentine's Day in 1953. I operated that store. We enlarged it several times, extended it back. Built a restaurant upstairs and operated that store until March 1, 1969, when I sold that store to a drug chain. And then I went to work for – Well, I worked some at People's Drug Store but I finally settled I think it was in 1970 or '71, I went to Friendship Manor and became the Director of Pharmacy out there and remained there until I retired in 1989 I guess. And since then, I've just helped out at various places. I worked some at the Health Department. Some at Wonder Drug in Southeast and Free Clinic I've worked since then. AS: Did you just run the one store on Grandin? RG: Yes. 7 �AS: You didn't ever run the rest of your father's stores? RG: No. As these big chains started coming in, he just closed 'em one by one. Two of the stores, one there on Jefferson Street, the viaduct came in so they had to tear that building down. That was one of the stores. And then another one was there on Jefferson and Walnut and the expressway came in. That building had to be torn down. So, one by one, they closed. So we had no drug store – I think the last one was closed in the 70s sometime. AS: Through the whole time you ran your drug store on Grandin, was it just a pharmacy? You had mentioned that it was a restaurant and soda fountain. RG: Oh yeah. It was a restaurant. We had a soda fountain downstairs. From the beginning, it was a soda fountain downstairs. Then, we enlarged that. We took in the area that was occupied by the flower shop. That was all converted into a restaurant and soda fountain. And then upstairs, we took in that space, all of that space and converted that into a restaurant. It was called the Gaslight. It was more of an upscale type. Where the soda fountain was all sit down booths and tables and the kitchen was at one end of it. AS: So did you have someone run the restaurant for you? RG: Oh yes. We had a manager upstairs and downstairs. AS: So you did good business? RG: Oh yeah. At one time, we probably served at least 1,000 people a day there because we served, we opened at 6:00 and we started serving breakfast. We would serve – That was downstairs. - We would serve about 300 breakfasts every day. AS: Wow. RG: And then we had 3 meals. We had cooks. We made our own pastry bread. Southern women made all that stuff. Today - even then, we were doing about $1,000 a day in food business but today, that wouldn't be probably about 8 or 10,000 more. You know with today's prices? AS: Mm mm. 0.49.54.2 RG: We had a real good reputation of serving very good food. You've got to remember too, this was before McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's and all of those. We served hamburgers and hot dogs and sandwiches. Then we had full meals, blue-plate specials. Breakfast, we'd serve, in other words, you could come in there and get eggs cooked any way that you wanted, sausage, bacon, ham and so forth. It was a gathering place for that area. But you had no 7-11 stores and all that sort of thing like you do today. We probably wouldn't be able to do that much business today. You could come in there and get a Coca-Cola if that's all you wanted or an ice cream cone or a hamburger or a hot dog or a full plate or salad plate. We employed in the restaurant, we probably had about 50 people, dishwashers, busboys, cooks. AS: That's a big business. RG: Oh yeah. Waitresses. We could seat, altogether, upstairs and downstairs, around 225 people. But the advantage of that, in other words, like if we were filled up upstairs, a lot of times during the dinner hours, we would have people waiting to get in. If they had some vacancies downstairs, we could send people downstairs or vice versa, we could send them up and down. We had an elevator up there in the store where they could go up and down. But it was quite an experience. But it was taking, I probably averaged about 100 hours a week working. AS: Wow. RG: But I managed. I never had any illness to speak of other than maybe a cold or something like that. So I managed very well. AS: You were also very active in the community. Would you tell us a little bit about the boards you served on and stuff like that? RG: The one evening I think it was, the chairman of the Republican Committee happened to come into 8 �the drug store and he was drinking coffee up there at the restaurant and I walked in. I knew him and I sat down. He said, “You know you ought to” - This was probably about 1961. - He said, “You ought to run for City Council.”. Of course I had never been in politics. I didn't know anything about it because I had spent all of my time working. I said, “Well, I don't know anything about City Government.”. And he kept on. He came back I think once or twice and finally, I said, “Well, I'll run.”. The Republican Party nominated me and I did win. Mayor Stoller, he ran and Jimmy Jones. They were in it. But I was the only Republican that won. So I took a seat on City Council and would've been September of 1962. I had a 4 year term. And when the 4 years were up, I was just so busy at the drug store and all, I had all I could do plus City Council at that time. I decided I would not run in '66. So, then I sold the store in '69. So after I sold the store, then I ran again in 1970. Then, I stayed there from 1970 until 1990. So I was on City Council for a total of 24 years. 0.55.00.1 AS: Wow. RG: It was a good experience for me. I learned a lot about city government and, of course, went to a lot of banquets and political meetings and all this sort of thing during this period. AS: And you also served on the Library Advisory Board, is that correct? RG: When we built the – this would've been in my first term, in fact, I have some pictures here somewhere and the program – Raleigh Court did not have many people and petitioned the City Council to build a library in Raleigh Court. So they presented that petition to City Council and I was appointed since I was living here, at that time I was here. I was living in this area as was most of the Council. In those days, practically all of the Council members lived in Southwest. In fact, I think all 7 of us lived in Southwest at that time. Anyway, I was appointed chairman of the committee to study about the Raleigh Court location library. And so, I have forgotten exactly the details but anyway, we decided on the location that is the present location of the library. Julian Hurst was the City Manager at that time. He was on the committee and I think Mayor Stoller, about 4 people on the committee and I was chairman of the committee. So, of course we got the land. The land belonged to the city at that time, all that. That was before – I can't remember whether Patrick Henry was built at that time or not. Anyway, if it was built, it was very new. Maybe it was built already. Anyway, the city owned the land so we didn't have to worry about the land. We put the bid out for the library. Plans were drawn by an architect and so forth and we accepted the bid and built the library. Gosh, we were able to do all of that - you wouldn't be able to do it now in such a short period of time. I think the whole process took less than a year from the beginning to the time it was finished. AS: Wow. RG: We only had one stumbling block. The matter of the floor. I wanted carpet on the floor and the reason I wanted carpet is because I thought it would reduce the sound of people walking. The City Manager, he said, “Oh, its going to be too hard to clean and people will be spilling stuff and walking through there and mud and so forth.”. He wanted tile. So we had a big to-do over that. I was voted down. He won that argument which I always regretted. So they had tile. What is it now? Is it tile now? AS: I think its still tile. RG: Is it still tile? But I was in favor of the carpet but I couldn't – It seemed like I had one other person but he had 2 others as I recall that were in favor of going with his logic that it was much easier to clean the tile than would be the carpet. That's how I was involved in that. But I always regretted that we didn't get the carpet. (chuckle) AS: I think they'll get the carpet when they redo it. 0.59.51.6 RG: When they redo it. I expect they will in those days. Of course in those days, they didn't have carpet like they have now like outdoor carpet and all kinds of carpet now and I guess Julian Hurst he 9 �was thinking they were going to be spending too much time cleaning that carpet which may've been the case. But I was thinking of the serenity and the quietness of the library. That's the reason I wanted the carpet. AS: I think I would've voted with you. Your house here on Lakewood, did you build this house or did you have it built. RG: No. Actually, we are the 3rd owners. AS: When was it built? RG: It was built in 1930, approximately during that period. It was built by Dr. - Its in that thing that I gave you. It was built by Dr. Harry B. Stone, Sr. They had 6 children but they were all – the youngest was probably 7 or 8. Most of 'em were teenagers. I think maybe 2 of them were in college at the time. And they lived here from 1930 until I believe 1951. It was bought then by a business man, Gretin Lyndsey and his wife and they lived here and they had one child. And they lived here until we bought it in April – We moved in here April 1, 1961 with our 4 children. The oldest at that time would've been 16, Bobby would've been 16. And Teresa would've been 6. AS: And you have a special name for the house. Can you explain why you gave it the name you did? RG: It was taken from the name of the 4th and the 3rd child. T-e-r-Teresa and A-n-i-t-a Anita, Teranita. They lived here the longest not that we thought any less of the 2 older children. But, as I said, Teresa would've been 6 and Anita would've been 8. 1961, she would've been 8. But I named it after them. It sounded good, Teranita. AS: I like it. RG: Of course, Terra, T-e-r-r-a that's Latin for land isn't it. Isn't that Latin for land? AS: I think so. RG: Her name is T-e-r, then Ter-Anita, so it went together well. AS: Those are basically the questions I have to ask you. Do you have more that you would like to share with us. RG: I was going over some of the things that I – I was just thinking of things as I was going – Here's some trivia. I remember in that block of Campbell Avenue from Jefferson Street to 1st Street or Henry Street, in the 30s, there were five 5 and 10 cents stores in that one block. It was Woolworth's, S.H. Kress, McClellans, W.T. Grant, and another one called Shulty United. I remember things, things that come to you. I don't know whether – You wouldn't remember – I'm sure you had a yo-yo. Well this was when they first came out, it was really a fad. I can remember S.H. Kress had this Filipino demonstrating a yo-yo down in the basement of S.H. Kress. There was a mob of people. This was really a fad during that period. It would've been sometime probably about '33 or '34. I was just a small child but I remember going there and I could hardly see because there were so many people. This guy was there demonstrating, throwing the yo-yo around. That sort of thing just came into my mind. 1.05.10.6 AS: Did you get a yo-yo? RG: Oh yeah, I got a yo-yo for 10 cents. AS: Were you good at it? RG: No, I don't think I would be considered good at it. But this guy, he could – I can remember him throwing that thing around, throwing it in all kinds of directions and there must've been 100 people there in the basement. See, they had 2 floors. They had the basement and I think they had a few toys down there and they had a lunch counter upstairs. And that was something that came to my mind. Another thing that came to my mind was the Woolworth's Store which was across the street. In fact, you may've been here when it finally closed. It closed about 10 years ago. Were you here then? AS: No. My husband was here though. RG: It was on the south side of Campbell Avenue. It was approximately in the middle of the block. It was up from the bank there, 5 or 6 stores up from the bank. I remember in the summer, it must've been 10 �'34 or '35, they were the first store to have air conditioning. I walked in that store in the hot summer, it was like going into a refrigerator. I mean it was the first time I had been in an air conditioned building. Here you went from 90 degrees outside to inside and it felt like you were in heaven almost. The Woolworth's Store. That was the first air conditioning I can remember. AS: So was it popular because it had air conditioning? RG: Oh yeah. They had a lunch counter in there. And each counter – In those days, each counter had a sales clerk, each counter. Then they had this big lunch counter. I think it occupied the entire side of it. They had a lot of business there. But each counter, they had a whole big display of this loose candy. You could go in there and buy a nickels-worth of candy. They'd dip it out of the display case. So that – I remember that because it was was something that you couldn't believe almost. You're used to going – like all my father's drug stores, all they had were these ceiling fans. (chuckling) You'd go in and it'd be 85 or 90 degrees in the summertime. I remember, and you may've had this come up, President Roosevelt – have you had it to come up? AS: Uh uh. No. RG: He took office in March of '33. They had built the Veterans Administration Hospital up here and he came. I believe it was in the fall, I'm not sure, of '34. But anyway, he was going to dedicate the building up there, the new hospital. So they even let the schools out. His schedule called for him to come up Grandin Road but we lived just one block over on Bellville. So, when he came in, he had this open car and they drove right up Grandin Road and we were out on the corner of Grandin and Shirley, right there. We waved at him. That was the first President I had ever seen in my life. AS: Was it a big procession? 1.09.14.1 RG: As I remember, it was a group of cars and he was going up to the Veteran's. But then, my parents took us and I think my older brother up to the Veteran's Administration where he gave the speech and dedication. Oh, it was thousands of people up there. And we were below where he was speaking and he was speaking from a platform. All the crowd was out below there. And we went there and saw him speak. But that was the first President I had ever seen. I was – In my lifetime, I was counting them last night, there have been 15 presidents since I was born. He was – I've only seen, let's see, Roosevelt and I saw Nixon, I saw Carter, Reagan but I think that's all I've ever seen of the presidents. But I know Kennedy came here but I didn't get to see him and Eisenhower came here. Both of them. And Reagan came to the Civic Center. I saw him there. He spoke. I saw Carter in Norfolk. Oh, I've seen George Bush, the father. In fact, I was on Council at the time he was Vice-President. And I presented the key to the city to – He was Vice-President then. He may've been running for Vice-President with Reagan. He wasn't President. Have you talked to anybody about the Thanksgiving celebrations here in Roanoke? AS: No. RG: You haven't. In those days, Thanksgiving was the outstanding holiday in Roanoke. I would say more-so even than Christmas and the reason for that was VMI and VPI met here for a football game on Thanksgiving Day. You weren't aware of this? AS: I actually had read an article about that, only by doing other research. RG: Every year up until VPI got so they were – VMI could not be competitive with them. I think up until about '71 or '72, every year, when my brother was at VMI those 4 years, that's when we really got interested in it. But anyway, the cadets – In other words, they got no Thanksgiving holiday because of that. Because of what they called the Thanksgiving Day Classic. Victory Stadium was not there. They had wooden stands. They called it the “Splinter Bowl”. The cadets would arrive here on Thanksgiving in the morning. AS: Would they take the train down from Rockbridge? RG: The cadets from VPI came on the train and I think the VMI cadets either came by bus or train, I've 11 �forgotten now. But I'm sure that the VPI cadets came by – and they assembled there at what is now the Link Museum. It was an old railroad station in those days. They would assemble there and in formation and at that time, VMI probably had less than a thousand cadets and VPI, they were much bigger. I would estimate they had between 2 and 3 thousand cadets. Of course, this was before VPI, that was called Virginia Polytechnic Institute and it was basically an agricultural school. Nothing like it is today. In fact, of course no female cadets and I don't think it had any female students at that time. It may've been just the cadets. Anyway, they would assemble there at the station. Then, they would march up Jefferson Street. They would usually start around noon and march straight up Jefferson Street, all the way across the Jefferson Street Bridge on out to where the Victory Stadium is. That's where the game was played in those days. And of course they had their band and then the VMI cadets or vice versa, they would march up Jefferson Street. Of course, the streets were lined up with people and they had their bands playing all during that period. Oh, it was quite a – On every corner, these vendors were selling VPI/VMI colors where people put the team that they were – on their coat. 1.15.37.5 AS: So you voted, you were rooting for VMI? RG: VMI, yeah right. My brother - then the game was 2 or 2:30 and VPI usually won. After the game, because my brother was a student, he would usually invite 3 or 4 of his best friends and their girlfriends after the game to come to our house where my mother would serve 'em a turkey dinner. We would have the whole house full of cadets and their girlfriends for Thanksgiving dinner. AS: Did you go to the games? RG: Oh yeah. I always went to the games. AS: I've seen pictures where the women would get dressed in their fur coats and gloves. So it was a fancy event. You got dressed up in your best clothes. RG: It was a tremendous event. I would say they had to put up special bleachers. In other words, that was before Victory Stadium. See the Victory Stadium didn't come in until after '41 as I remember. Oh, it was a tremendous event. I remember we would gather there at the Patrick Henry Hotel under that marquis 'cause it was a little warmer there. I can remember one Thanksgiving, it snowed and they played in the snow out there. That was tremendous. Then that night, they would have dances at the cotillion - the German club would have dances at the Hotel Roanoke or the Hotel Patrick Henry. Oh, it was a tremendous event. A lot of out of town people would come to Roanoke during that period. That holiday, that was, I think in those days it was considered more of a holiday than Christmas was. AS: Was that your favorite holiday then? RG: Well, I guess it probably was but we always had a good Christmas. Christmas in those days – Fireworks was one of the main things during Christmas. They had skyrockets and Roman candles. I can remember sleeping there on the sleeping porch on Christmas Eve nights and oh, you'd hear fireworks going off all night long throughout. You could hear 'em. Of course you were anxious to get up and go downstairs for Christmas. That was – Thanksgiving was a very big holiday for Roanoke. It was because of the game and so many of the alumni of VPI and VMI both lived in Roanoke. (long pause) Am I boring you too much? AS: No, I am enjoying it. I hope you're doing OK. 1.19.38.3 RG: Oh yeah. We were talking about streetcars. I remember the last streetcar in Roanoke. As I told you our store was on the corner of – one of the downtown stores – was on the corner of Jefferson and Salem Avenue. The last streetcar in Roanoke that night around 11 o'clock, our store stayed open late. The last streetcar – it was during the summer 'cause I was home from college - left there right – the end of the streetcar line was right where the railroad tracks are now. Right there at Jefferson Street, right beyond Salem Avenue. So all of the city officials, being the last streetcars in Roanoke – This would've been I think in '48, the summer of '48. So we were open at the drug store and I remember going out 12 �there on the curbside and they had all the city officials, the Mayor, City Manager, so they all left and went out to Jefferson Street to the car barn which was under the Walnut Street Bridge at that time. I can remember that because we were there and watched it, the last streetcar in Roanoke. AS: Was it disappointing when the streetcar system stopped? RG: I think it had a lot of nostalgia. But, the problem with streetcars is that they weren't as flexible as a bus. A bus can go like a car. AS: So really the bus system replaced the streetcar system? RG: Yeah. Gosh, we had an excellent streetcar and transportation system. It went all out thought south Roanoke, all out Grandin Road. The end of the line was there at Patrick Henry High School. Came on down Grandin Road, Memorial Avenue, Patterson Avenue, and to downtown. They had all down Southeast up to Northeast there where my father's drug store was. The streetcar turned there, went up that hill, oh, into where the Civic Center is now. That was – and they ran until midnight. They really had excellent service. You gotta remember that most of the transportation in those days was done on the streetcars because so few people had cars. If you were a person with no car that's the only way they could travel. If you wanted to go to a movie downtown or anything like that or shopping, you'd have to catch the streetcar. AS: I've heard people talk about maybe bringing it back. Do you think it would do well or do you think it would be more of a - ? RG: I just don't think it would be practical. I can remember when we had 'em, we would go down Campbell Avenue and there were cars parked on both sides. So if you got behind a streetcar, you just had to follow it until it turned or you turned. You would just have to follow it because you couldn't pass 'cause the streets are that narrow. In that period, they allowed parking on both sides of Campbell Avenue. So you had double streetcar tracks and parking on both sides, so you couldn't go around. AS: It would hold up traffic? RG: Yeah, if you got behind a streetcar, you just had to go with them. They did provide real good service like on Grandin Road, all out to, seem like it went to Avenham, all out through South Roanoke, Southeast, it went up Dale Avenue and – You live in Vinton don't you? AS: I actually live on Reed Mountain. At the very tip of the city. RG: Didn't you live in Vinton? AS: My husband's from Vinton. 1.24.27.7 RG: Maybe that's what I was thinking. Oh yeah, I know exactly where Reed Mountain is. The streetcars were a life saver in those days because so few people had cars, particularly in the beginning when they first came here in Roanoke which I think was about 1912 along in there. So, the automobile didn't become popular until really the 30s and the 40s. When I had the drug store and we opened the Gaslight Restaurant which was on the second floor, we did, I think I was the first one that ever did this on TV. I did my own TV ad and this was the Gaslight Restaurant so the core was of that period. It had red velvet and it was a beautiful restaurant. So when we first opened it, we of course wanted to advertise, make it known. I got my – Anita played the piano and Teresa, the younger girl, she played the bass fiddle which is in the dining room there now. So I got a red - pink and white sport coat and one of those sailor's straw hats, flat. I think you call 'em sailor hats. So I wanted to do an ad to attract people to the Gaslight Restaurant. We, I think it opened in the summer is the way it happened. They played the piano and the bass fiddle and I sang (singing) “In the Good Old Summertime, In the good old summertime, Garland's is the place to dine in the good old summertime”. (laughing) The kids, of course they were just small, and they were on TV and all their playmates, they were so proud of that. But as far as I can remember, I think it was the first TV that was ever done by nonprofessionals. AS: Did it help? RG: Oh yeah. We had all the business we could take care of. They would line up. The Gaslight 13 �would seat about 65 people but we would have to turn people away a lot of the meals. We couldn't – They would wait and the lines would be too long and they would go elsewhere. I can remember that. I wish I had gotten a tape of that but I didn't. I don't want to keep you too long here. AS: No, you're fine. I'm fine as long as you're fine. RG: Oh, I was telling you about the Rialto Theater. That was – You know where the Center In The Square is now? AS: Mm mm. RG: OK. The Rialto Theater, in fact that's in that article that you'll read about – The Rialto Theater seemed like it was a little further up toward Jefferson Street. Anyway, that was a Western movie. Of course, as a young boy in those days, those cowboy movie stars were very popular. They were our heroes you might say. We would go there, my brother or my friends would go there just about every Saturday and see the cowboy movie and then after we saw the movie, my mother would give us enough money to see the movie, gave us 2 tokens for the streetcar ride. Then, after the movie was over, we would go down to the Roanoke Weiner Stand which was 5 or 6 stores down from where the Rialto was. AS: Where it still is now? RG: Yeah, where it is now. And we would go in there and get a hot dog and Coca Cola and boy that was 1.30.05.1 AS: A day out on the town. RG: 10 cents for a Coca Cola and a hot dog. And, man, it was really good. Then, we would – Sometimes, we would go down to my father's drug store and maybe hang around down there some or we would ride on the streetcar and go back home. But that was almost every Saturday afternoon. We would see a cowboy movie and then go to the Roanoke Wiener Stand and we thought that was really something. Now, what does a hot dog cost down there? AS: Oh gosh, for a hot dog, soda and I think fries. RG: What is it? Two dollars? AS: Now, I think its $5.25. RG: You're kidding. (laughing) 10 cents in the 30s. AS: And $5.25 is actually pretty good for that nowadays. RG: Well, I think I've – In those days, any rain of one inch or more would almost always flood the downtown area. My father's drug store would invariably get flooded. As I pointed out in this picture of me in the Roanoke paper of us trying to keep the water out of the drug store with mops and all. But that was practically every summer. I remember one summer, the water had gotten up to where the windows of the streetcars were. The streetcars would be in the middle of Campbell Avenue and the water would get up to that point which would be at least 4 or 5 feet. But see, the sewage, the drainage system, they just didn't have any in those days to speak of. Any rain of several inches would flood the complete downtown area. My father took us – This wasn't in Roanoke. - Took us to the first all-star baseball game which was in Chicago. AS: Oh. RG: That was in 1933. That was – Babe Ruth hit a home run. I would've been 10 years old at the time and the American League won 4 to 2. My father was a great baseball fan and at the same time – that was in July of 1933 – the World's Fair was there at that time in Chicago. So we got to see the all star game, the first all star game, and then we went to the Chicago World's Fair several days after that. We also saw some baseball games at Wrigley Field. But that game was at Kaminski Park. AS: Was Babe Ruth a big hero? RG: Oh yeah. And he hit a home run in that game. AS: Did you watch the local baseball team? Was there a local baseball team? RG: There was a local baseball team and I went to some of the games. 14 �AS: Where was that? RG: It was at the – They called it the fair grounds then which is where Victory Stadium was. The baseball field, as I remember, was at this end of the Franklin Road area beyond that on Reserve Avenue but it was called the Roanoke Red Sox. That was the name of the team. Roanoke has never been, except for that Thanksgiving Day game, they've never been one to support sports very much. They've had failures of football teams, hockey, basketball teams. I don't know what it is. And the same thing happened to that. It just – It was part of the Piedmont League like Norfolk and Roanoke and I think Lynchburg was in it, Durham, North Carolina. It was the Piedmont League and they were in that particular league. 1.35.13.0 AS: Was it an integrated league? RG: It was a minor league. It would be similar to what Salem has now. I would say it would be on the same par as the Avalanche. I think it would be on the same. And they had that – I know after the war, for I don't know how many years, 4 or 5 years I would think – the attendance was such that they just couldn't support it. It didn't have enough fans to support it. AS: That's too bad. RG: Let me take you down to the basement while you're here. I have some things that you might be interested in. AS: OK. RG: I think I covered all of this. I hope I haven't gone too long here. AS: No, not at all. Thank you Mr. Garland for letting us interview you. SECOND SEPARATE PART AS: OK Mr. Garland, go ahead and tell me about when you met your wife. RG: It was in the summer of 1942 and I was in Pharmacist School at the Medical College of Virginia and my wife was working as a secretary for the Colgate-Palmolive Peet Company. This was during World War II and the housing situation in Richmond was very acute because of the war and I moved to a boarding house on Monument Avenue in one of the old mansions that 2 old-maid sisters operated. And I lived on the 3rd floor with some students and the 3rd floor had a large room, the complete width of the house which I think the former owners probably used it as a playroom or a gymnasium or something like that. Anyway, they rented that to 6 girls. This was after I had moved in. I had been there for several weeks. She had just opened the house. She just rented it. It would accommodate approximately 40 people altogether. It was a tremendous home. Anyway, she rented it to 6 working girls. And the afternoon that they moved in, I heard this tap on the door and it was the land lady and she asked me, she said, “The girls are having trouble to get the water to drain out of the tub.”. We had to share the bathroom, which was between our room and this room that went across the front of the house. So we had to share the bathroom with 6 girls. Can you imagine that? She said, “They're having trouble getting the water to stay in the tub”, I've forgotten exactly. There was something wrong with the drain. But she said, “Do you know how it works?”. I said, “Yeah”. And she said, “Would you come in and explain to them how to work this tub?”. So, I did. And they had 3 or 4 of the girls in there. My wife happened to be one of them. She introduced me to all of 'em. So I showed 'em whatever it was. I can't remember. It had something to do with the drain. It wouldn't go down or the water wouldn't go out or it wouldn't stay in. I've forgotten exactly. Anyway, I explained it to 'em. I met her for the first time when they moved in that day. And, of course, we had 2 meals there at the boarding house. She furnished us with breakfast and dinner. And it was a very – She was very strict at running the house. When you came to dinner, you had to be dressed. Men had to have coat and tie and women either had to have a dress – I don't think there were any slacks or anything in those days. 15 �Anyway, we ate there and one thing led to another and we – They had a parlor there after we ate. We'd go in and all of us would gather there in the parlor, go to a movie or something. Didn't have a car or anything. That was the summer of 1942 and we kept going pretty steadily until I went into the Army. She took me to her home and I brought her to Roanoke to meet my parents. Then, I went in the Army. Then, I would go on furlough and come to see her when I could. But then, we decided we would get married and so we married on October 2, 1943. That would've been approximately one year, a little over a year since we had met. We went to New York City on our honeymoon. My parents and my 9 year old brother and my older brother who, he and his wife and 1 year old daughter, he was stationed there in the Air Force there in Massachusetts and this was in October so my father being a baseball fan, he got tickets to the World Series. New York Yankees and the St. Louis Cardinals played in the World Series that year. We went to the World Series. My wife and I stayed at the Waldorf Astoria which in those days was probably the premiere hotel in New York and my parents and my brother and all of them stayed at the hotel across the street. So we were there for a week. Frank Sinatra was singing at the supper club at the Waldorf during that period but I was unable to get tickets to see him. That's how we met and that's our honeymoon. I couldn't find a place – Atlanta was like Richmond, you just couldn't find a place to stay. And Atlanta had many servicemen. A lot of Army bases and all were close by. She had to come back to Richmond, continuing her work and I went back to Atlanta. But in 6 weeks approximately, I was able to get a single room in a private home out in the country close to where I was stationed and so we stayed in Atlanta the entire war. That's where I AS: So she moved down to be with you? RG: She moved down approximately 6 weeks after we were married. I was able to get this single room. And then, later, we were able to get an apartment and we had to move. I think we had 2 apartments and, as I said, our first child was born there at Fort McPherson Hospital there in Atlanta. East Point, Georgia, is where that was located. So that's how we met and so forth. AS: Thank you for sharing that with us. RG: Let me take you downstairs and let you look at that while you're here. 16 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2662/Garland_Robert_and_Mrs._Garland.jpg 0ec74c63cb3101ad736be89d3cd55ced https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2662/garland_robert.pdf ad3840fc993ee770ffb9cbfdcaa72275 PDF Text Text Christmas Day Brunch at Teranita By Robert Allen Garland Unquestionably, the most memorable and delicious meal of the year served at Teranita is the Christmas Day Brunch preparedand presentedby Frances in her usual efficient and meticulous manner. Our guests gatheraround the antique oak table adorned with place settings of our china, crystal and silverware patterns from our marriage. Adding to the holiday festivities is a beautiful floral display in the center of the round table. The meal is served usually around 1:30 p.m. Christmas afternoon. This samescenario with all the family and friends assembledin the dining room is played out by millions throughout the world. Since our marriage on Oct. 2, 1943, we have experienced numerousChristmas meals at various locations but it was not until much later that we settled on this menu and fare. The first recording of this special meal in our guestbooks was on Dec. 25, 1979. It has been precise\y replicated every Christmas since. The Brunch Casserolerecipe was taken from Mrs. J6;imDalton's pamphlet entitled Our Favorite Recipeswhich of course included the favorite recipes of the Dalton family. Her husband, John Dalton was campaigning for governor in 1977, an election which he easily won. As she campaigned throughout the Commonwealth, Mrs. Dalton used this pamphlet to hand out to the voters which contained 60 recipes, one of which was Brunch Casserole. In the 25 years Franceshas served this extraordinary meal to at least 300 guests composed of family membersand close friends. My parentsattended as long as they were able (the last time being 1984). Frances's mother, Mrs. Sarah C. Vaughan had been our guest at Christmastime almost every year since the early 1950' s, the last visit being Christmas I 992. Menu Fresh Fruit Cup Brunch Casserole Smithfield Ham CheeseBiscuits Orange Mannalade, Grape Jelly, Apple Butter Coffee Ingredients: lIb. sausage(cooked, but not dry) 1/2 lb. grated sharp cheese 8 slices (crusts trimmed) white bread 3 or 4 eggs (depending on egg size) 2 cups milk 1/2 teaspoonsalt I teaspoondry mustard dashof pepper �r Preparationof Brunch Casserole: Use a greased9" x 13" pyrex dish. Place bread as a liner in bottom of dish, then cheese,then sausage. Sprinkle these evenly over the bread. Mix together eggs, milk, salt, mustard and pepper. Pour egg mixture over the bread, sausageand cheese. CHILL OVERNIGHT; then bake at 350 degreesfor 30 to 35 minutes. Goldenrod Eggs During the depressionyears, it was customary that the female children take courses in Home Economics. Living in the country in Nottoway County, it was almost mandated and expected of all the girls becausein those days most of them would marry and become homemakers. Franceswas no exception. Moreover, I am sure she was anxious to do so knowing that she would excel in the course given the knowledge and experience that her mother, Mrs. Holmes A. Vaughan had passedon to her and to her 2 sisters, Betsy and Lucy Holmes. As I pen these thoughts, I am reminded of the quote attributed to the famous pediatrician, Benjamin Spock when he said, "Everything I know, I learned from my mother". In my researchas to how Franceslearned of this delicious breakfast, I found the textbook that she had used in her Home Economics class which would have been 1939-1941. The book was quite tom and tattered coming apart in places from long time use. It is titled The American Woman's Cookbook and there on page 371 was the recipe for Eggs A 'La Goldenrod. I do not rememberthe fIrst time she prepared this dish for me. Most likely it was while we were in the service stationed in Atlanta, Georgia 1943-1946. After the war and I returned to college and later to Roanoke, she would prepare the dish only occasionally. However, in recent years we have it often and the explanation will follow. Our daughter, RebeccaJane,and her friend JosephH. (Jody) Fleming IV who reside in Charlotte, NC visit us often on weekendsand leave after breakfast on Monday. On one of those weekend visits (Inauguration Day, Jan. 20,1997, William J. Clinton's 2nd term) Frances served her Goldenrod Eggs. When the plate was placed before Jody he had this very surprised and pleasedlook. It brought back fond memories for him since that was his favorite breakfasthis mother would prepare for him. That was the fIrst time that he had tl11ose eggs since her passing. When he and Becky visit us now, most always on Monday I1lorning before they leave Francesservesthem Goldenrod Eggs along with Armour's link sausage. Jody agreeswith me that it's the best of all egg dishes and the plates are swept clean. Eggs A' La Goldenrod 4 hard-cooked eggs 2 cups of thin white sauce 8 Holland Rusk toast Salt and pepper �(?) Preparation: Boil and peel eggs. Separatethe yolks from the whites of the eggs; chop the whites very fine, and add to the white sauce,with salt and pepper. Arrange 2 slices of Holland Rusf on eachplate and pour the white saucemixture over them. Grate yolks on top of white sauceand Holland Rusk and serve with Armour's link sausage. Frances' Brownies Although it is difficult for me to selectthe best of all the desserts,pies, cookies, etc. that Franceshas prepared through the years as my favorite, I would have to give the nod and opt for her brownies. To those of you who have eatenone of these would remember it and I believe would agree with me. Preparation: use one box of Duncan Hines Triple Fudge Brownie mix. Cook according to directions on box and cool. Ice with the following and then chill: 4 tablespoonssoft butter 2 cups Confectioners lOX sugar 2 tablespoonsHalf and Half 2 teaspoonspure vanilla extract For Glaze: Melt 2 squaresof Hershey's unsweetenedchocolate and 2 tablespoonsbutter, pour over filling, tilting pan until glaze covers all. Refrigerate 15 minutes to harden. (the mixed chocolate melts just right in warm oven after you have turned it oft). Green Bean Casserole taken from Mrs. Dalton's recipes This is a dish that Francesprepares frequently for family dinners. It is a favorite of mine and for many others who have had it servedto them at Teranita. Ingredients and Preparation: 2 packagesfrozen french style greenbeans 2 tablespoonsflour 2 tablespoonsbutter (melted) I teaspoonsalt 2 teaspoonssugar 3 or 4 teaspoonsfinely grated onion I pint sour cream 1 (8 oz.) pkg. grated Swiss cheese Com flakes (crushed) Cook greenbeans as usual, drain and set aside. Make a pasteof the flour and butter adding the sugar, salt, and onion. Add the sour cream and Swiss cheese. Gently fold in the green be~s and spoon into a casserolecovering with crushed com flakes. Bake at 350 degreesfor about 25 minutes. �/ tt Frances' Egg Nog Frances usually waits until Christmas Eve to preparethis holiday drink. It is served after the brunch and throughout the afternoon and evening as our guestsarrive. Eloise, her children and grandchildren usually arrive in the late afternoon or early evening. The Egg Nog sprinkled with nutmeg is servedalong with sugar cookies, Petie and Janie's fruitcake, rum cake (prepared by a neighbor, Mrs. Joyce Rice), See's candy and other toothsome trrats. This delicious drink is served throughout the holiday season. Ingredients: 12 eggs 2 cups sugar 4 cups milk 2 cups whipping cream 1/2 cup brandy 1/4 cup bourbon 1/4 cup light rum Preparation: Separateeggs, beat yolks until light. Beat in sugar until mixture is thick. Stir in milk, brandy, bourbon and rum. Beat egg whites until stiff and fold into mixture. Whip the cream and add to the mixture. Place in refrigerator. When serving sprinkle with nutmeg. My Favorite Breakfast While Growing up on Belleville Road in the 1930's By RobertAllen Garland Although this meal did not require any fancy menu or recipe that one might see in Southern Living, it is one that will be forever etched in my childhood memories and for the enjoyment it gave me. It was not complicated, neither did it require a long time to prepare. You needed only 4 ingredients that included one egg, one slice of bread, a sausagepatty or 2 strips of bacon and a touch of vinegar. The actual cost for this meal in that depressionera of the 1930's was no more than 10 to 15 cents. After dressipg for school and Mama would see that her boys were immaculately dressed, I would arrive in the kitchen and she would have already started the process of cooking my breakfast. I can see her now at the stove as she would pour the whole egg into a pot of boiling water where she had previously put a touch of vinegar. Frances thinks the purpose of this step was to keep the white of the egg together. She would boil the egg until the yolk was completely solidified as I did not like the yellow to be runny (unlike my daughter Anita, who prefers her eggs that way). In a separatefrying pan Mama would place about 1/3 inch slab of butter, melt it and then place the slice of bread into the pan. Fry it, turning it over several times to soak up the butter. In another frying pan she would place a sausagepatty or 2 strips of bacon and cook it until done. She would then place the poached egg on top of the fried bread and then add the sausageor bacon on the side of the plate. She would then serve it to me in our small breakfastroom. This was a �& Hord'oeuvres: delicious breakfast and a wonderful way to start the day at Virginia Heights Elementary School and Woodrow Wilson Junior High School. Now on Sundaynights around 8PM Francespreparesand servesme two poachedeggs (cooked hard) on two pieces of bread that have been fried in the pan with either 3 strips of bacon or Annour's link sausageon the side of the dish just like Mama used to make my breakfast 70 to 75 years ago. The Day-After Christmas Brunch at The Cedars My brother Petie and his wife Janie would invite all of the family to his home, The Cedars at Cifax in the afternoon the day after Christmas. The serving of oyster stew was a family custom that my mother followed on Christmas day. Assorted Cheeseand Mixed Nuts Bloody Mary OysterStew SmithfieldHam on BrownBread Egg Custard over Vanilla Ice Cream Garland Fruitcake Red and White Wine Coffee Teranita's Most FamousGuest It was on a cloudy fall day when the telephone rang around lOAM and it was my brother Petie. He asked Frances, "How would you like to have Elizabeth Taylor for lunch?" Frances first thought he was kidding. But no, he was serious. John W. Warner who had been Assistant Secretaryof Navy under PresidentNixon and more recently had beenchairman of American Bicentennial Commission in 1976 and a friend of Petie was scheduledto make a speechthat afternoon at VMI. He had called my brother to go over the speechand seek his help with the speechthat he was to make later in the day. The courtship with Ms. Taylor had just recently begun and she was to be with him along with an aide. They were scheduledto arrive in Roanoke around 1 PM. This gave Frances approximately 3 hours to prepare lunch for the worlds most recognizable woman. Becauseof the shortnessof time Frances sought help from a longtime friend of the family, Mamie Vest. Betweenthe two they settled on SeafoodCurry which Mamie would prepare and bring with her to the lunch. Frances' selectionswere Peanut Soup and Chocolate Silk pie. Petie brought Jack Daniels bourbon and also a bottle of champagne. Petie picked them up at the airport and brought them to Teranita and arrived around 1 PM. As you would expect, the lunch was outstanding. Francesand Mamie received praises from our three distinguished guests. Becausewe did not want any publicity of �this visit, no press was called but Francesdid call our next door neighbor Mrs. Mary Ellen Strickler and told her to be working out in her yard if she wanted to see Elizabeth Taylor which she did. I had asked Mr. Warner if he thought Ms. Taylor would object if I took pictures, for I knew I would never have this opportunity ever again. At the time, our miniature Dachshund "Fig" was 4 years old and Ms. Taylor was seatedin a chair in the library. She snuggled and kissed "Fig" lightly and I snappedthe picture. "Fig" became the only dog in Roanoke to be kissed by Elizabeth Taylor. We took several other pictures which we treasure. Around 3PM a uniformed driver picked up our three guestsand they were on their way to Lexington. Ms. Taylor was extremely nice, quiet spoken and complementary of the meal. John W. Warner would become Virginia's Junior Senator in November of 1978. He is now the Senior Senatorfrom Virginia. F.V.G.'s HomemadeChili Con Carne Ingredients: 1 pound Angus ground beef llarge onion (chopped) 1/2 medium size green pepper (chopped) 1 teaspoonsalt 2 tablespoons chili powder 1/2 teaspoonblack pepper 2 teaspoonscumin 1/4 teaspoonallspice 1 #2 can diced tomatoes 1 #2 can red kidney beans 1 1/2 tablespoonsugar 1/2 ounce Hershey's semi-sweetchocolate 1 bay leaf 1 #2 can tomato sauce 1/2 can beef broth Preparation: Saute beef, green pepperand onion in skillet. Add salt, chili powder, black pepper, cumin and allspice. Bring to boil and reduce heat. Simmer for several hours. May serve with Oysterettes,Cheez-it (white cheddarof original) or over cooked rice. On bridge ~ghts with Petie and Jane Ingram, Frances frequently servesthis chili as the entree. Petie'complains that she does not put enough cumin. Having eatenhis chili at "The Cedars" the taste of cumin is quite prominent and very good also. Although this is an ideal fare to serve on a cold snowy day when you are sequestered FVG servesthis delicious dish the year around. I was [lISt introduced to Chili Con Carne in the 1930's at Roanoke's landmark Texas Tavern. I can still remembersome of the framed signs behind the counter. Since there were only ten stools, one sign read "We can seata thousand customers ten at a time". �Another sign reads "We don't cash checks or play with bumble bees". Another reads, "Please pay when served". In that depressionridden era in the 1930's you could order a bowl of chili, which included a bag of cheesecrackers,a hamburger or hot-dog and a Coca-Cola or a mug of cold buttermilk (pumped out) all for 20 cents. There was no sales tax and no tip was expected. After SundaySchool, my older brother Dickie and I would leave Greene Memorial Church and go to the Texas Tavern and order one or more of the items listed above. The owner was a Mr. Bullington who would most always be there on Sundaymornings checking up etc. I believe that businessremains in the Bullington family. A si~e window on Church A venue provided take out service but was mainly used for black customersto place an order as they could not be seatedbecauserestaurantswere segregated. It remained open all night and was the gathering place for high school proms and sporting events. There has beenno change in the building. The menu remains essentially the sameas in the 1930's featuring Western and Denver sandwiches. Former residents of Roanoke who come back to visit will invariably return to their old haunting place to visit and get a bowl of chili. F.V.G.'s Cream Cheese and Olive Spread Ingredients: -4 ounce Philadelphia cream cheese 5 ounce Spanisholives 3/4 cup mayonnaise 3 shakesTabascosauce 1 tablespoonWorcestershiresauce Preparation: Soften the cream cheeseto room temperature. Place olives in small food processoruntil chopped. Whip in the mayonnaiseand add the Tabascoand Worcestershire sauce. F.V.G.'s HorseradishSauce Ingredients 4 ouncesmayonnaise 4 ounces sour cream 2 teaspoonslemonjuice 1 tablespoon horseradish 2 teaspoonshoney 2 tablespoons Dijon mustard Preparation �~ ---- Mix the lemon juice, honey, horseradishand Dijon mustard. Gradually add the mayonnaise and sour cream until thoroughly mixed. Frances serves this at dinnerbetween bridgegameswith cornedbeef,cabbage, carrots andonions. This is an excellentsauce overthe cornedbeef. Our guests usuallymy are brotherPetieandgoodfriend JaneIngram. Mama's Sandwiches Made for the Drugstore in the 1930's As most all of you know Daddy had his first drugstore at 132 Campbell Avenue S.E. which was then the comer of Campbell A venue and Randolph Street. The latter is now Williamson Road. As was the custom in those days, most drugstoreshad soda fountains where various drinks, ice-cream and milkshakes were served. In the early days few stores served any food or sandwiches. As time went on these serviceswere added. Across the street from Dfiddy's drugstore was a building which housedthe Appalachian Electric Power Company which had approximately 100 employees. My brother Dickie who worked in the drugstore met his future wife Eloise who was an employee of Appalachian. My parents decided that Mama would make various sandwiches at home in the morning to be sold at the drugstore at lunchtime. During that depressionperiod we had a maid named Katie who helped my mother around the house with the cleaning and cooking. They would start preparing the sandwiches shortly after my brother and I left for school. They prepared Pimento Cheese,egg salad, cream cheeseand olive and ham salad sandwiches on white bread to sell to the customers at lunchtime. Once completed, the sandwicheswere wrapped in wax paper and a small white slip placed on top to identify what kind it was. This was done in my Mama's own handwriting. They made approximately 30 sandwichesand placed them in a large broiler pan. Katie would walk down to the comer of Grandin Road and Sherwood and stop the streetcarand give the pan to the conductor with a token for the fare. An employee of the drugstore would meet the streetcar and pick up the pan of sandwiches which would be servedto our lunch customers. ihe sandwichessold for between .15 and .25 cents. ( c::L ",,~~"D"-yt--' ~ ) � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2662/garland_robert2.pdf 63ae8875e1d31b20bb48da5b4dc8fab2 PDF Text Text �� https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2662/history_of_market.pdf b53ade2654afcbe85ee5ab600140af04 PDF Text Text DOWN ON THE MARKET Memoriesof the Market Area in Roanoke ROBERTALLEN GARLA}ID ROANOKE o L992 - ? ^ b d t t ' �l> FOREWORD Back in the summer Daddy wrote this essay on the Market area and gave it to me to edit and type for submission to the Roanoke newspaper for a story they were doing on that special part of downtown Roanoke. Soon afber, I decided that Daddy's remembrances would be my Christmas present to the family in this book form. Although the Market area has had less impact on my generation than it had on the previous one, its recent renewal has provided many special times to me and our family in the last decade. One of my favorite places on the market has been "Gallery Three"-begun, built, but recently sold by a cousin, Andy Williams. I have spent many hours browsing among the art work there-always looking to enhance my personal collection, a passion of mine. Or of visiting the ScienceMuseum, the History Museum, of seeing "South Pacific" at the "MiIl Mountain Theatre" with Mama and Daddy, and sitting in those seats with not near-enoughroom for long legs. Of shopping in the dozensof stores-clothes, antiques, novelty; of visiting some of the older stores-Agnew Feed and Milan Brothers. Of eating in the restaurants! What fun we've had at Cornbeef & Company, or the quickly-out-of-business"Blue Muse," and now over coffeeor espressoat "Mill Mountain Coffee." Too, it is always fun to take our guests to the market area. I believe they get a real senseof what makes the city so special. I now feel that any of my visits to Roanokeare incomplete if I don't get to go on the Market. I love being there; I love walking around with Mama and Daddy whom everyoneseemsto know and wants to greet. Maybe it is becausea part of me really is there-a part of all the Garlands is there. That is where we began, where we grew up; it was our home-because of the man who eighty years ago had a dream. It was a Drug Store. Down on the Market. And so, dear Family, I hope you enjoy this. Merry Christmas! -A.H.G. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS Forever Richard! Once again my dear friend Richard C. Mc0lintock has helped me in the physical preparation of my Christmas grft. He laid out the design on his computer and gave me pointers on the cover production among other things. Thanks, too, to Mama who helped me look for the photograph of Big Walter in the drug store; we knew it existed but it had been temporarily misplaced, only to appear in the album where we thought it was all along. Mama also took the photograph to the Art-Fac folks to have it reproduced for me. �DEDICATION For my family, and in appreciation of Daddy's memories. Copyright @ 1992 by Anita H. Garland All rights reserved First printing, 1992 Th'elve copiesof the first prnting were bound by hand. Printed in the United States of America Hampden-Sydney,Virginia �DOWN ON THE MARKET Robert Allen Garland From 1915 until the middle 1950s, my father, Walter B. Garland, owned and operated a small drug store at the corner of what was then Campbell Avenue Southeast and Randolph Street (now Williamson Road). He had first worked for Mr. Philip Clore, a "druggist" (not referred to then as "pharmacist"), who was the original owner of the store. His first job was behind the soda fountain as a "soda jerk," a term derived from the hand motion used to dispensecarbonatedwater into a soda. My father was a hard worker and anxious to get ahead to support his new bride, Minnie Everette Allen, whom he had married on October 25, 1915. He bought half interest in the little store, and it became Clore and Garland. Somewherearound 1920,he bought out Mr. Clore, and the store became Garland's Drug Store located at I32 East Campbell Avenue. I can still remember the telephone number, which in those days was a three-digit number-l27. To place a call, you would lift the receiver and a female oper- ator would answer and say, "Number please." That store on Campbell Avenue was the first of ten stores that my father and uncles (J. L. Pitts and M.C. Allen) would establish. With the exception of the Campbell Avenue store and one other at the corner of Salem and Jefferson,all were locatedin neighborhoods scattered throughout the city. Each store had a soda fountain which were the socialhubs of those neighborhoods. The drug store of that era was the meeting place where people could gather at little expense,exchangegossip, carry on a courtship, or simply watch the world go by. It is probably the closest this country ever came to �the European Caf6 or Coffee House. For 5l one could buy a "coke" made from scratch with one ounce of s;rrup, a scoop of ice, and carbonated water directly from a soda arm. You could get a freshly-made limeade for 109, and a milk-shake for the same, unless you wanted Horlick's Malted Milk added, which was 5@more. Other popular drinks in those days were the Cherry Smash and Hire's Root Beer. There was another that I thought was good, "Green River," but it never caught on. AII these drinks were prepared on request while the customer waited-there drinks as you have today-and were no machines or premixed on hot summer days, with no air condi- tioning in any of the offices and stores, business was ofbenvery brisk. Like my father before me, my first job in the drug store was behind the soda fountain. In my opinion, "the fountain" is an institution which the present day culture has sadly missed and by which it would be improved if it were available today. I have many fond and nostalgic memories of those days. My most vivid recollectionsof the Market area start in the early 1930s and extend into the wartime years. I do have some hazy and vague memories of the late 1920s. One such incident which stands out in my mind would have occurred, I believe, somewhere in the t928-1929 period, although I am not really sure of that date. It was not until years later that I was to learn of the signifrcance of this event. I remember being at my father's drug store one evening and standing on the curbside in front. There were other spectatorslined up on the sidewalks. I remember that I was terrified by what was occurring. There was a march of what I would estimate to be several hundred people, clothed in white uniforms with cone-shapedhats, and face coverings with slits for the eyes, nose, and mouth. They were caryring a torch or a light of some sort. I believe they were chanting. They marched down Campbell Avenue and turned left onto Randolph Street and went up over the bridge. During that �period, there was a business area along that strip where the Civic Center is now located, for what we then called "colored people." The Kimball area on the other side was where many of Roanoke's black families lived. It was like a small settlement. Rarely would those residents wander outside those areas except to work, to shop, or to go to Henry Street for their entertainment. Ironically, fifty years lateE that same organization, the Ku Klux KIan, would march down Jefferson Street and, to Roanoke's credit, attract very few spectators or participants. The market area in the 1930s was a bustling mecca of activity. Practically all grocery shopping, particularly for meat and produce, was done there. The market building itself housed, I would estimate, 10 or 15 independent butchers who had stalls on each side of the building. (A. R. Minton, a future Roanoke mayor, had his butcher shop at the northeast corner of the first block of Campbell Avenue Southeast and Wall Street.) On the outside, there were numerous stalls where vendors would sell mostly fresh vegeAlso, many farmtables and fruits, homemadehoney,and other delicacies. ers lined up their trucks, with the backside facing the curb, and sold their goods from there. Since most of the shopping was done on Fridays and Saturdays, a number of these farmers would sleep in the back or the cab of their trucks to be ready for the early morning business. My parents bought most of their produce from Mr. Ellis, a very aristocratic-looking gentleman, whose family still resideshere. His stall was on the east side of the market building. On the third floor of the market building, there was a basketball court with spectator seats. This court was used for the various city leagues as well as for the Gold Medal Tournament. I witnessed many exciting games there. The L00 block of East Campbell was a very interesting block of busi- �nesses. The owners of these establishments were, for the most part, very fine and ethical gentlemen, and many were regular customers of my father's store. We reciprocated their business any time we could. With the help of others, I have been able to remember most of these. On the north side of that block, on the corner, was another drug store, Humphries and Webber. They, too, had a soda fountain, but the store specializedin all kinds of garden and flower seeds.They stored these in a beautiful wooden fixture, each drawer labeled with its contents. They also stocked a complete line of patent medicines and trusses (a support used in the case of a hernia, for example). If one were to ask for a "truss" in a modern pharmacy, I doubt if the clerk, or even the pharmacist, would know what one wanted. Next door was the Army and Navy store operated first by Mr. Halpern and later by his son "Poachie" and his sister. They sold clothing, overalls, boots, shoes,etc. Next door to them was Oscar Graves General Store. Today,that store would be an antique lover's dream. I remember the fixtures were all of wood. There were barrels of merchandise on the floor. "Penny Candy" (it really sold for Ll) was displayed in a glass case, and you were waited on from behind it. Mr. Graves stocked all kinds of groceries, gloves, barrels of pickle, fat back, and anything a farmer might need. He had an especially large selection of chewing tobacco,which came in slabs packed in woodenboxes. He had a tobaccocutter to slice the tobaccoas he sold it. (We had the same instrument at my father's drug store.) Farther down the block was Sam's At*y Store, run by the Shapiro family, who left that location in 1932 to move to Nelson Street. About in the middle of that block was another grocer,L. I. Booth. He and his wife operated this typical "Mom and Pop" store and did it very well. My parents were regular customers of Mr. Booth's store, buyrng most of their staples from him. I remember going to that store with my parents, and my �IA ra-/ mother having a list of all her needs. She handed it to Mr. Booth, and he went throughout the store getting each item off the shelf, and then completed the transaction by charging it to our account and bagging it. Imagine that kind of service today! In those days, the 100 block of East Campbell would be considered the Furniture Mart of the city. It included some of Roanoke's most prominent business names. There was Wrights, John Parrish, Wickhams, Killingers, Witten-Martin, Waynicks, Stephenson and Aldridge, and probably more that I can't remember. One of those gentlemen I remember quite well. Mr. O. B. Wickham would come to the drug store several times a day, and he would always order a "coke." He was really a nice man, but there were many others too. I have only the faintest recollection of the street car waiting room, which was directly across the street from my father's store. This building was last occupiedby Grand Piano. I am not sure when the street car company relocated, but I would estimate that it was in the late 1920s. When they were there, my father became great friends with all the street car motormen. I can remember the names of E. H. Hammersley and W.R. Harbour. Daddy would cash their checks and run charge accounts for them. After they left, the Appalachian Electric Power Company moved in and occupiedall floors of that building. This helped my father's business, for even in those days, they had a large number of employees,and most of them were customers of the drug store several times a day.Also, people paid their light bill at that location, which brought a lot of foot traffic to that area. I remember, with fondness,many of the men and women who worked for the Appalachian and who were customers and friends-names like Jimmy White, Davis Elliott, J.G. Harvey, Jimmy Crouch, Joy lr{ash, Doss Ayers, Frank Wells, Clarence Mills, Alex Pullen, Irene Kendrick, Mr. Whitfield, �Alfred Hendricks, Bob Phillips, Mary Mills, and many others. My brother "Dickie" met his wife Eloise Thrnbull when she was working there. In those bygone days, there were no drink machines or coffeemakers in office buildings-those came much later. Often, particularly during inclement weather, the employeeswould telephone their orders to us for various drinks, candy, and Nabs, and we would deliver those things directly to their offices. In the summer, I was the one doing most of the delivering. In the 1930s my father installed a slot machine in the front part of the drug store. It took nickels and paid offjust as the ones do now in Atlantic City or Las Vegas.It was very popular, and customers would gather around, waiting in line to play it. Occasionally,the three bars would appear, and the cheers would go up as the jackpot was hit. Although this would not happen very ofben,the folks from Appalachian were still frequent players. Even though these machines were illegal, they were allowed to operate. I have been told that a member of City Council had these slot machines in his business,and consequentlythe police were reluctant to enforcethe law, thus enabling the other merchants to also operate. However, on occasion,I suppose to let everyone know that "the law" still existed, the police would raid those businesses and fine the owners for possession the machines. of While also illegal like the slot machine, another thing used to bring customersinto the drug stores was the sale of baseball tickets. If anything, baseball was more popular in the 1930s than it is today, despite the television broadcasts. During that period, many of the confectioneries,cigar stores, smoke shops, and luncheonettes posted the major league baseball scores,as well as the World Series. The inning by inning scores,names of players pitching and hitting home runs, and delays in the game were transmitted by way of the Western Union ticker. All this was posted either on a huge blackboard or on the window inside the store. �Baseball tickets ("chances"on the games) were sold for 109 each, which gave you the opportunity to win (as I remember, $6.00) if your ticket had the teams with the two highest or the two lowest scores on that particular day. My father installed the Western Union ticker in the store, and during the summer months, my older brother "Dickie" and I had the job of posting the scoresas the returns came in on the ticker. Another long-time business in that block of Campbell Avenue was "The Big Four Barber Shop." It was located on the south side of the street up from Appalachian. I can still remember the names of those four very talented barbers-Mr. Wright, Mr. Moore, Mr. Jones, and Mr. Craft. Since all of them were customers of the drug store, my hair was cut by themusually by Mr. Jones-until I went offto college.During an infantile paraly- sis (now called polio) epidemic in the mid-thirties, my parents forbade us from mingling in crowds, or going to the drug store, or even playing with other children becauseof the fear of this disease.On at least one occasion. I can remember one of the barbers traveling to our home in Raleigh Court and cutting my hair in the bathroom. The barber shop stayed open until 11 p.m. on Saturday nights and would do a brisk business up until that hour. The price was 25A for a haircut, and no tip was given or expected.In addition, they had a shoe-shinestand, and you could receive an expert shine for only 100. When the bootblack was finished with the shine, he would take a whisk broom and brush your clothesas an extra service. There were many other unique businessesin that area in the 1930s.On Randolph Street going north was one with which I was quite familiar. On the west side was Belmont Shoe Hospital, which was there until recently, when it was destroyed by fire. Mr. Richard Smith owned and operated this well-run establishment. This expert cobbler did quality work, and even �during the depression did not lack for business. In those years it was common practice to have your shoes redone afber wearing out the soles or heels. This is where I first met Mr. Allen Pullen, who was in his late teens then. It is a friendship that I treasure and have retained to this very day. Alex operated the shoe shine stand in that shop. I don't think I have ever met a more likable, friendly, and courteous man in my entire life. He had numerous customers and friends throughout that business community. He was loved by all of us who knew him. Many of his customers were Appalachian employees; as a result, he became an employee of that great company and worked for them from 1944 until 1976 when he retired. Alex's influence in this community will be felt long after he is gone. On the east side of Randolph Street going up the hill was a building owned by Mr. Jacob Brenner, who operated the Roanoke Scrap Iron and Metal Company. He was a fine gentleman in every respect, and very aristocratic looking. He had a rather wide moustache, as I recall, and in the winter months wore a Homburg hat which gave him a very distinguished look. The Brenner family is well known in Roanoke for its civic and philanthropic activities. On the northeast of Randolph Street was first the Virginia Electric Company owned and operated by the Johnson Brothers, Dewey and Earl. Dewey, the older brother, was a hard-nosedbusinessmanand more-or-less ran the business. I never saw him without a hat on his head or a cigar in the corner of his mouth. I believe next to that business-going up Randolph Street-was John Hansbrough's shop were he made horse harnesses,bridles, collars, saddles, and other equipment for farm animals. Farther up was Eaton's Watch Repair and another shoe repair shop owned by a Mr. Doss. At one time, there was a pool room (Lockards). Fleishman Yeast Co. had a wholesale �outlet there. a) The last shop on the right just before crossing the Randolph Street Bridge was Dulaney's Bicycle Shop. I was more familiar with this shop than the others because my brother and I both owned bicycles, and we would frequent that shop often for repairs. The room was always in a state of disarray. It appeared that they rarely cleaned the floor or straightened the shop. There were bicycle parts lyrng and hanging everywhere around that very small room. Nonetheless, they did an excellent job in repairing our bikes. There were other businessesin that area worthy of mentioning, namely Economy's Barber Shop, Katz Tailoring and Pressing Cleaners, and Tom's Restaurant. Tonik's also had a tailor and pressing shop. Others have my escaped memory. "Fats" Summers owned and operated a barber shop that faced Campbell Avenue next to Virginia Electric Company.As his nickname indicated, he was quite overweight. Unfortunately, too, he would go on frequent drinking binges where he would really get down and out, until he was picked up by the police and taken to jail to dry out. There were no detoxification centers or halfway houseshere during that era. Diagonally acrossthe street from the drug store was the N & W Salvage Warehouse (Firestone Co. present location). The Third Street railroad tracks were perhaps several hundred feet to the east of that building. During the depressionyears, the hoboesand derelicts would gather there behind the warehouse. They would come to the drug store, buy rubbing alcohol for l9A a pint, and then go back and share it among themselves. Frequently, the police would appear with the "Black Maria" (Paddy Wagon) and haul them away. Cigarette smoking was a national craze in the 1930s,promoted by the �tobacco companies as glamourous, fashionable, and even healthy. The brands used catchy advertising slogans to attract smokers: Camels-"I'd walk a mile for a Camel," Lucky Strike-"It's satisfy," and Old Gold-"Not toasted," Chesterfields-"They a cough in a car load," were the leading brands that used mostly radio and magazines to sell their product. At my father's drug store, we sold two packs for 25Q.Believe it! In the 1930s the market area had its share of alcoholics and drug addicts. If there were homosexuals or transvestites on the market then, either I was not aware of it or I did not understand their role. I have no recollection of either. In those days, these poor, unfortunate addicts were referred to in less sophisticated terms. They were called drunks and dope fiends. Becauseof what we sold, these street people were frequent customers at my father's drug store. Paregoric could be purchased without a prescription, becauseit did have some legitimate uses. Legally, one could purchase two ouncesfor 25A by signing a register with one's name and address, although this regulation was not always followed by the drug stores. Neither would it prohibit someone from going store to store; and at that time there must have been L2 to 15 drug stores in the downtown area. There were a number of these addicts who were well known throughout the market area, and they would make their rounds to all the drug stores until their money ran out. Several of these lost souls stand out in my memory. One of the most pitiful and pathetic human specimensthat I have ever encountered was a woman then whom I knew only as "Aunt Maria" (pronounced Ma-rye-ah). That was not her real name, but it derived from the fact that she chewed tobacco, the brand name being "Black Maria." In addition to the chewing tobacco,she also used "T\rbe Rose" snuff. Aunt Maria must have been in her late 70s or early 80s. She was very stooped,one of her eyes was completelygone and & �(r+ shut, and she was toothless. She was nothing but skin and bones, weighilg not more than 75 pounds. She was addicted to Paregoric, and would go up on the market and beg or sell pencils until she got enough to buy her Paregoric. often someone on the market would give her cornbread, and when she came to get her Paregoric, my father would give her a cup of buttermilk to go with it. In the winter, he would allow her to sit in the back of the store to keep warrn. I never knew where she lived. There was also Bessie Lambert and John Parrish, both of whom were dope fiends and also addicted to Paregoric. They were always seen together. Bessie, too, was a small pitiable figure, and John was a humpback always in need of a bath. They pushed an old two-wheeled cart around town, collecting various junk, then taking it to Jake Brenner's junk yard to get enough money for food and Paregoric. Another was John Young, whom I understand was a World War I veteran. He had a wooden leg and was addicted to Terpin Hydrate and Codeine Elixir. He would consume four ounces of that alcoholic @\Vd and codeine mixture without taking the bottle from his lips. There were many others like those hapless, woebegone,and forlorn people, and even as a child my heart went out to them. The story of the market would not be complete without some mention of the hotels in that area, although to some people, hotel might be a misnomer. The two that immediately come to my mind are the Shenandoah (later the Earle) and the Randolph Hotel. The Shenandoahfaced Salem Avenue, just as the Earle now does, and extended through to Campbell Avenue over my father's drug store. Originally, the Shenandoah was a businessman's hotel and was consideredrespectable. However, as time went on, it attracted many prostitutes and their clients, and became known more-or-less as a whorehouse.The Randolph was a much smaller hotel with several floors, �located on the left after you pass Salem Avenue and before you cross the bridge. Although I can recall many legitimate guests, it was known essentially as a house of ill repute. Many of the women were good customers of the drug store, and they would buy many of their needs from us, especially the products known today as feminine hygiene, which consisted of douche bags, disinfectants, and douche powders. I remember one of these ladies of the night in particular. She was very pretty but was deaf and dumb. I have often wondered whatever happened to that girl. In the evening, bell-hops (mostly black) from the hotels would make a purchase from the drug store, which a clerk would get from one certain drawer in the back of the store. Until I became of age, this one drawer was "forbidden" and off limits to me, though I did not really know the reason until much later. I remember male customers (never female) coming into the store and, in whispered tones, sayrng something to the clerk or to my father. The clerk would then go to that drawer, take something out, place it in the palm of the hand of the customer, then ring up the sale on the cash register. I am sure at some point when no one was looking and my curiosity had gotten the best of me, I peeked in that drawer. In today's drug store, the items in that drawer, prophylactics, are openly displayed on self-service shelves. This would have been unthinkable, as well as consideredunethical, even up into the 1970s Although universally known as condoms now, the term was never used in the 1930s to my recollection. Customers usually referred to them as "rubbers." Other names that were frequently used were cunions, safetys, raincoats, or pro's. I remember one particular brand that my father stocked was "The Three Little Pigs," a rather appropriate name as 3 sold for 25Q. Although sexually transmitted diseaseswere prevalent then, there was little said or written about them. Syphilis and gonorrhea were the most �feared. Of course there was no AIDS, and I don't ever remember the term herpes being used until much later. There was one produet that we sold called "Dough Boy, " a mercurial (mercurous chloride) type of ointment also sold from the forbidden drawer. This was applied by the male before and after an encounter, supposedlyto protect him from those diseases. Floods in the market area were quite common, particularly in the summer months. Like now, perhaps even worse, during heavy rains, the downtown streets would becomeflooded. The waters would back up into all the businessesalong Campbell Avenue, and Daddy's store was no exception. Much damage was done then, just as now. I can remember one such summer flood, mainly becausea picture was taken by a newspaper photographer, showing me along with other members of my family with mops and brooms in front of the drug store. I am almost sure that that was the first time my picture ever appeared in the newspaper. I found that clipping in a photograph album after my parents had passed away. During the summer months, "Dickie," my older brother, some of our friends, and I would play softball in the middle of Campbell Avenue (streetcar tracks and all) under the lights which lit the streets reasonably well. Our play would be frequently interrupted by a street car, a passing motorist, or a policeman. However, the traffic at night during those depression years was very sparse. It is a miracle that we did not break any store windows during those games. I guess some of my fondest memories of the market area are of the Rialto Theatre (Shooting Gallery). In those days, you didn't go to a movie, but you went to a "picture show" Practically every week we would go to see our favorite cowboy stars-Buck Jones, Ken Maynard, "Hoot" Gibson, fim McCoy, Bob Steele, and other notables. Usually there would be a serial going. I remember one, in particular, starring "Red" Grange, a football star, �in "The Galloping Ghost." I saw all fifteen segments, one each week. Afterwards, we would walk down past "Diamonds," which was a confectionery with a soda fountain, a pool room and a duck pin bowling alley in the back, past Nelson Hardware and Bob's Shoe Store to get to the Roanoke Weiner Stand. There we would order a hot dog with everything on it and a bottle of "Coke" for 10d. We thought that was really living. As I think of that little corner drug store of ours, Christmas time was the most memorable. The gifts my father offered were simple and inexpensive, most below five dollars. People seemedto appreciate those small gifts then, more so than the elaborate items they have today. I remember the store and the window decorations to entice the passersby to come in. I remember, too, with nostalgia the farmers as they displayed their Christmas wares from the back of their trucks or from the sidewalk stalls: the beautiful wreaths, the mistletoe, holly, and the red poinsettias, all at unbelievably low prices. Many came to sell Christmas trees. One of these farmers I remember distinctly-he was a real character. His name was Mr. Lane. He would bring a truck load of Christmas trees from Buchanan and set them up behind the Appalachian building. In between customers, he would warrn his hands over an open fire, usually a huge oil drum. At night, he would bring his daily receipts to the drug store, and Daddy would put them in the safe. I never saw him without a large wad of chewing tobacco with the juice running down each side of his mouth. One can re-live much of Roanoke'shistory, indeed, America's history, in knowing and understanding the activities of the Market Area. As I reminisce about those times and recall my treasured memories of that unique area,I am reminded of a passageattributed to Ivanna Chamberlain: Oh mentory,turn back the leauesof your book; �On the pages of childhood permit us to look. U COLOPHON Tlrc text was written during June of 1992, for a Market Retrospectivesection in the Roanoke newspaper. The book was made during the month of December1992. The photograph of Big Walter in his first drug store (on the center spread) was reproduced by Art Fac in Sal.em,Virginia. photographs were taken by Anita Garland. The other Prints were hand-tinted by Anita Garland and copied on a Canon color copier at the Design Group in Lynchburg. The type was set in New Century Schoolbook on a Macintosh IIsi computer and laid out in ReadySetGo5. The entire book was printed on a Canon copier on Hammermill offset paper. AII of this was accomplished at Hampden-Sydney College in H ampden-Sy dney, Virginia, in the eleuenth hour before Christmas. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Robert Garland Subject The topic of the resource Southwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Robert Garland Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 12 June 2007 Location: Private residence of Robert Garland Total Duration: 1:36:18 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12 June 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Allen Garland; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GarlandRobert https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2661/WakimRodolph.2.mp3 e210c3617d08758978aad68a8c4b261b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2661/WakimRodolph.1.pdf cb029be2b9e21c85f51341418c1b5637 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Rodolph Wakim Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: My name is Alicia Sell. I am at Saint Elias Catholic Church on Cove Road. Today is June 8, 2007. I am here with Father Rodolph. Thank you for meeting with us. We're just going to do a basic, start out with a basic background about yourself. Where and when were you born? RW: First, thank you for meeting with me. I'd be happy to be of any assistance in this project of sharing information through the library. I am very supportive of the library work. Is my voice too low? AS: No, you're perfect. I can make sure that its working. RW: I was born in Lebanon in 1964. I came to the States for good in 1987. I was 23 years old. I have been living in the States for the last 20 years. AS: Why did you come to the United States? RW: My father lived in the States and he – For two reasons, first to be with him because he was having open heart surgery. (phone ringing) The other thing is to continue my education in physical therapy. AS: OK. So, you started out with an education in Physical Therapy over here. What made you decide to go into the priesthood? RW: What made me decide to go into the priesthood? AS: Mm mm. RW: Its a long story. (chuckle) I don't want to get off the subject. I'll make it brief. Why I decided to become a priest – Its not a decision, you find yourself at home when you're at church. I found myself at home. I found I enjoyed giving my time to God, not only part time but full time. AS: About how old were you then when you became a priest? RW: I became a priest when I was 33. AS: When did you move to Roanoke? RW: In November, 1997. AS: And you came here to be here at Saint Elias Church? RW: Correct. AS: Tell me a little bit about what was Saint Elias like when you first came here. What kind of size was it? Is it strictly for the Lebanese community or what kind of membership do you have here? RW: When I first came here, the church was mixed of Lebanese and non-Lebanese descendent. When you say Lebanese, actually its not correct statement because 90% of Lebanese, they're all American of Lebanese descent. AS: OK. RW: We have very few new immigrants which you could call Lebanese, direct descendent, but that counts a small minority. The majority of those who are of Lebanese descent do not speak Lebanese. They have been here 2 or 3 generations. This church here began its first location on Salem Avenue back in 1914 or 1917. The reason we have those two dates is there was a priest here. His name was Father Peter Rabel. He was visiting North Carolina and the people invited him over to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in Arabic for those immigrants. The Lebanese immigrant came to this part of American, United States because it resembled Lebanon, the country, the mountains. The mountains and the nature was very similar. AS: Is the climate very similar as well? 0.04.49.5 RW: The climate is very similar as well. The only difference is you have Lebanese along the coast, the Mediterranean. So, that's the only part missing. (chuckle) In general, most of the immigrants came to this part because of the trains. The first immigrants worked as peddlers. They were hard working 1 �people, very resilient, very determined and very – How do you say it? - Proud, they never would solicit or beg for money. They earned their living and they refused to be dependent on anyone. So, they worked very hard like most immigrants. The story of the Lebanese immigrant resembles almost every nation that migrated to this country. AS: So, in 1914/1917, there was already an established community here? RW: Yeah. There were people, immigrants, of Lebanese descent living here already, and when they heard of a priest that is visiting North Carolina, they invited him to baptize their children or celebrate or pray. They used Saint Andrews Church for a while until they were able to save up some money. So by 1917, they purchased a church on Salem Avenue. I think 525. I don't remember the exact address. We could look it up. I believe it was purchased with cash, debt free. And that's where they were and Father Peter Rabel was here for almost 50 years until his death in '64 I believe. He was succeeded by several priests. Well, after that, there were going to close this church because there were no Lebanese priests. There were no priests who served this community. But the people here they go together and went to the Catholic Bishop in Richmond and appeared to him to find them a priest. They refused to close their church and they were really determined after 50 years. So he finally found them a priest, I mean a Latin, until they were able to get another priest. So, they had a priest was Monsignor Asar Awad (??). He was here for 2 or 3 years and left – He left for I believe Ohio for 3 years. During his absence, a few priests came over and then he was back in 1970 for up 'til 1996/97. Altogether, almost 27 years, almost 30 years. AS: And then you were the priest after he -? RW: And between him and I there was a priest here for transition of 3 months, around 3 months between July and November. Its important to note that during the time of Monsignor Asar Awad, the church experienced a growth, physical growth in number and improvement in the facility. He was able to purchase this land that we are here on 4730 Cove Road. He purchased the land and he first built a social hall, a banquet hall, in 1977. The banquet hall was used as a center for bingo. That was the major fundraiser. Saint Elias, Knights of Columbus, Saint Andrews Church, they all used the hall every week for bingo for fundraising. So it almost became like a bingo center. (chuckle) With the proceeds, from that – That helped build the church in 1984. The church that is existing here now. 0.10.00.7 AS: Is the church on Salem Avenue, did they sell that or they still use it? RW: It was sold. Now it is a studio, photography studio. AS: Oh, I think I know exactly which one it is. RW: I think the address is 525. AS: Let me ask you a question about the early church and the early community from the church. What kind of jobs did the people in the community have? RW: That's a very good question Alicia. The early, as I started telling you, early Christians or early immigrants, they were peddlers. They traveled from one – They got on the train and they went from one city to another and when they got to Roanoke, they loved the scenery. It reminded them of home. So, they got off and stayed in the area and they opened their own little stores. They were peddlers here but eventually, they saved up some money. Around in the 20s and 30s, there were many grocery stores owned by Lebanese. So those early immigrants basically worked in trade, businesses, sales and you still have some produce – What is it? Najim (??) Fruit and Produce. There are a few businesses existing still. So those early immigrants worked very hard at what they knew best, trade. AS: Were they welcomed into the community? RW: Not really. That's another question. Let me finish the first thought. AS: OK. RW: They worked very hard, saved up money but they made sure their children are educated. Education was, what you would call sacred. All of their children were all well-educated, higher 2 �education. Had degrees in different fields, many fields. One of them – Some of them became politicians like, God rest his soul, Vic Thomas of the House of Delegates. He was proud of his Lebanese – As a matter of fact, his parents owned a grocery store. (chuckling) AS: Here in Roanoke? RW: Yeah, yeah. On Orange Avenue. He even inherited the grocery store. They still have it as a matter of fact. Its still – 2 or 3 generations. Many of them like lawyers and like that Ray Ferris. He's a prominent lawyer in the city. AS: Once their children were educated, did they stay here in Roanoke or did they go out to other communities? RW: Most of them stayed here. Some might have left. The second question that you AS: Were they accepted into the community? RW: Actually, no. They had to earn their acceptance. Unfortunately, there were treated – public places – treated the Middle East, the Lebanese, like they treated the black people today. Call them black or African-American AS: African-American. RW: I don't know the polically correct statement – but back then, they were treated equally, the same way, prejudiced against both. For instance, public swimming pools, they were not welcomed/allowed there. And I hear a lot of stories from people of – older people, they tell me – not long ago, I mean, talking about maybe 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 30, 40, 50 years ago. That when they went to the swimming pool, the cousins, the one who was blondish, light-skinned would get in. They couldn't tell – The one who had the Middle Eastern features – dark skin, black hair, they wouldn't let her in. So that was – Purchasing property. On the deed, they would say, “Not allowed to sell to Syrian or Lebanese” or whatever. In other words, they did have to earn their respect. And they did work very hard and the Lebanese community in Roanoke is prominent, I mean, respected. Things change. Today, Roanoke is a cosmopolitan town/city. They have all these different nationalities here. When we celebrate the Local Colors, you see all these different people. (Knock at the door) Can we pause for a second? 0.15.19.5 AS: Yeah, sure. AS: OK, we're recording again. RW: So the Lebanese community, they earned their respect, the respect of the city and, as you know today. There was a nationwide change in the mentality on how to treat foreigners, you know. AS: And in many ways, they weren't necessarily foreigners anymore 'cause they had been here for more than a generation. RW: Correct. Same like blacks. (chuckle) African-American descent. I would say that not all of them are from African descendents. Anyway, that's true. And, as a matter of fact, during the second World War, many people of Lebanese descent who were already born here served in the Army and Marines and Air Force, soldiers, intelligence. As a matter of fact, my secretary and _______, they both were in intelligence. AS: Oh. RW: Yeah. But I'm saying that they did serve their country and one of the most decorated soldiers in Virginia is Lebanese. AS: Really? RW: Yeah. Joe Moses. I believe his name is Joe Moses. AS: I had just never heard of him. RW: His last name was Moses. I think Joseph. I'd rather double check. His last name – He is Lebanese. Just one of the highly decorated soldiers. So they did really serve and contribute to the country and to the valley, the Roanoke Valley. Today, where are they today? They're – Today, they are everywhere. They inter-married. They mingled with the society in a way that there are so many inter3 �marriages. AS: Is it still a very strong, tight-knit community today? RW: Yes, yes. Even thought they are 3rd generation of – 2 or 3 generations – They still hold their traditions. They still hold it up and family ties are very strong. They – All you have to do is put on some Lebanese music, you'll see them all gather around. They come from the woods, everywhere. Lebanese food. (chuckling) A few weeks ago, we had our Lebanese Festival. AS: How long has that been going on, the Lebanese Festival? RW: This year was our 9th year. It started in 1998. Let me see, I'm sorry, '99. AS: So that started around when you came here? RW: '98 will make it – '99 – yes. A year after I was here, we started this festival. Not to say that they did not have festivals before, they did. They had major functions and events but it was not annually. They had many functions. This was an event that was meant to stay, to be annual. AS: Its very successful isn't it. RW: Thank God, its been very successful and it reunited the people, build that strong bond that we are the pride of who they are. And, as a matter of fact, people who have any – what do you call it? - roots. If they have some roots of the Lebanese and they would bring it up now. I mean, if somebody is 1/10 Lebanese, they'd say, “I have 1/10 Lebanese in me”. AS: (laughing) 0.19.57.1 RW: Its like that makes them, like people are coming out. And that was the main purpose of it to bring this pride. Not to boast but to – not to hide it. You have a lot to offer. Lebanon is – These are the descendents of the Phoenicians, the great Phoenician Civilization who were adventurous, courageous. The Phoenicians were the ones who invented the alphabet. They were – They built the greatest boats and traveled the world. As a matter of fact, we were talking the other day, in South America, thousands of years ago, the Phoenicians landed there before Christopher Columbus. They got lost and they landed there and ended up – I don't know if they were killed or died a natural death, they made it to this part of the world by accident like Christopher Columbus got here by accident. As you know. Lebanese, they have that in their blood, adventurous, courageous. They trade doing business. One of the biggest quality you find in them, their devotion to God, loyalty to the Faith. And number two, of course, that goes hand in hand with family, God, the family. And the other beautiful quality is their love of hospitality. Its very common to see, to go to Lebanon, if you go to Lebanon today, people will fight over who's going to welcome you better. Who's going to treat you better. Its funny, its really, it sounds funny that they do want to honor the guests and they get – Who's going to host you? They compete over hospitality. That's because I guess Lebanon lives because of its beautiful nature and geographical, strategic location on the Mediterranean – Always hosted many civilizations as they've been through that country and it has beautiful mountains and green trees. No deserts really. Rich in water. Its the richest country in the Middle East in water. It might sound – water, who cares about water but when you are surrounded by deserts, water is more valuable than gold. Other countries are rich in oil, Lebanon is richest in water which I see as a beautiful gift from God. So, that's why tourism is the main source of income for the country. There are what you call ruins of many civilizations. For lack of words I said ruins but you find temples or castles, fortresses built by many civilizations. They are remarkable. The art and the engineering of all different civilizations. They left their mark in that country because its on the coast so back then, when they traveled, they traveled along the coast. So they came through the land. Lebanon has a lot of beautiful sights, places to see and natural beauty. I guess that made them more hospitable, to welcome the guests. People been through their country. AS: I won't take too much longer of your time but is there anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to mention? RW: I forgot to cover – The rice and beans, I forgot to cover them in the kitchen. Should I go back. 4 �(both laughing) AS: Thank you very much for meeting with me. RW: You're welcome. Well actually as a conclusion, I think I look into the future. Usually we look – what do you hope for? What do you wish? My view, unfortunately, I'm being transferred in the next few days, I'm moving. The people – My hopes and my view what tomorrow is going to bring, you will, people might not stand out as Lebanese as they are already American first. They don't speak Lebanese. But its in their blood. Those of Lebanese descent will continue to enrich this valley and inspire them with their loyalty. First to God and then to family. In any country, anywhere in the world, when you see those 2 great values held, you can predict a great future. When you always God number 1 and family, protect and defend and hold it close. That's, I guess, what we need to work on and actually that may help our country who needs help in the department of family. 'Cause family is a little in danger now. Its threatened. I mean when you say family, you think about children. Children when they have no home or broken families, you see the future is broken. I hope and pray that the Lebanese continue to inspire our country – Americans of Lebanese descent, continue to inspire our nation and love of God and family. AS: Thank you very much. RW: You're welcome Alicia. 5 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Rodolph Wakim Subject The topic of the resource Northwest Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Rodolph Wakim Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 8 June 2007 Location: St. Elias Church Total Duration: 26:43 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8 June 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rodolph Wakim; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WakinRodolph https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2660/Hale_Janice_8_June_2007.1.mp3 7ef2d8e480d9a620026ed3977baa24d0 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2660/HaleJanice.pdf bc0d4b93bd6122e4967655068fa708e7 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Janice Hale Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: Today is June 8, 2007, and my name is Alicia Sell. I am with Roanoke Public Libraries and I am here interviewing Ms. Janice Hilton Hale at the Gainsboro Branch Library. Thank you for coming out today Ms. Hale. We're going to start with some background questions about. Can you tell me when and where you were born? JH: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, June 11, 1928. AS: Were you born at a hospital or at your home? JH: Burrell Memorial Hospital. AS: How long have you lived in Gainsboro? JH: I lived on Rutheford Avenue Northwest which is I would consider very close to Gainsboro. AS: Is that considered Northwest? JH: Northwest. AS: OK. JH: And I lived there until I was married except for the 4 years I was in college. AS: And when you were married, where did you live? JH: After marriage? AS: Mm mm. JH: I lived on Patton Avenue which is still in the Gainsboro area. I stayed there about 4 years and then I moved back to Rutheford Avenue Northwest and stayed there about 3 years and then from there to Carroll Avenue Northwest which is in the Rugby Section. AS: Tell me about your parents. When did they come to Roanoke? JH: My father and mother came to Roanoke as children or late childhood. My father's family moved to Roanoke upon the death of his father. They lived out in the rural area, Blackstone. My mother came too as a child when her mother died. She came to live with an aunt. She was early adolescent when that happened. AS: What kind of work did your parents do here in Roanoke? JH: My father worked for Norfolk Western Railroad and my mother worked partially as a domestic, not full time. AS: Did you have brothers and sisters? JH: I have 2 brothers. One is a minister and lives in St. Louis, Missouri and the other is a lawyer who lives in Detroit, Michigan. AS: What are their names? JH: Samuel Wilburt Hilton Jr. is the minister and Kenneth _____ Hilton is the lawyer. AS: And where do you fall, are you the oldest? JH: I'm in the middle. AS: Did you have extended family members living close by to you growing up, like a grandmother or aunts and uncles? JH: Yes. AS: Who lived close by to you? JH: I had an aunt and her family who lived just up the street from us on the same or almost the same block. And then an uncle who lived on Patton, Northwest, with an large extended family. Both of them had large families. AS: Did you do a lot of things with your extended family? JH: Yes. AS: Can you describe your house for us? You said it was on Rutheford, correct? 1 �JH: Right, right. AS: What was it like? For instance, was it brick, was it one story or two? Did it have a front porch? JH: It was a, what do you call it, bungalow. It had 3 bedrooms and my father had the house built. Three floors with the basement with a front porch and a back porch and a fenced in yard. AS: Did you have a garden growing up? JH: Not really. We maybe had a tomato plant or two but not a real garden. AS: What did your father do at the Norfolk and Western? JH: He was a freight handler. After retiring from Norfolk Western, he worked for a senior citizens program there at the Melrose Towers and he was there about 10 years after having retired from Norfolk Western. And also, he was a minister. 0.05.14.7 AS: What church did he preach at? JH: He pastored a little church in Floyd, Mount Zion Christian Church in Floyd, Virginia. AS: Did he do that after you were, still after you were born? Would you go out to Floyd to that church? JH: He didn't do that until after his retirement from Norfolk Southern, Norfolk Western now and then. I was an adult then. I was married by that time. During the time that we were growing up, he was a sort-of like a lay minister at Loudon Avenue. At that time, it was 9th Avenue Christian Church down in Northeast. AS: What kind of activities did you do growing up? Did you sing, for instance, in the choir or sports or anything like that? JH: I was very active in youth activities at the YWCA and of course the youth program that were carried on at the church, Girl Scouts. I guess that's it. AS: Let's talk about your education a little bit. Where did you go to school here, elementary and - ? JH: I went to Harrison School Elementary and then to Lucy Addison High School. AS: Did you have to walk to school or did you take a bus? JH: Yes, walked. AS: Was it very far for you? JH: Well to Addison, it was a pretty good distance but all of us walked. (chuckle) AS: Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? JH: Not unless I was sick. I don't remember losing any days. AS: How much schooling did you complete? JH: I got a BA degree from Talladega College and then I was certified in Special-Ed after I became employed with Roanoke City Schools. AS: So you have a BA, what is it in? JH: Its in Sociology and my certification is in Special Education. AS: And you said you went to Talladega College in Talladega, Alabama. Did anyone else in your family ever attend college? JH: Yes, both brothers. My older brother has a Doctorate of Ministry. He finished Morehouse College and then went to seminary in Indianapolis. My younger brother, he finished Talladega and then went to Boston U where he earned his law degree. AS: Wow. Did your parents attend college or was education a priority in your family? JH: They didn't attend college. AS: Did they push you and your brothers to go to school? JH: Oh, yeah. That was understood from the moment I can remember, that was our goal in life. (chuckle) AS: Let's talk a little bit about your life at home growing up. Did you have – What kind of activities would you and your family do together? For instance, did you have a radio that you would gather 2 �around in the evening? Would you get together with, you know, on Sundays with family and have a big lunch kind of a thing? JH: Yes. Radio I guess was our main media entertainment. Of course, our life was based around the church. Every activity at the church we attended. AS: What church did you attend? JH: That was 9th Avenue Christian Church. While I was in college, the church relocated from Northeast to Northwest and then now, Loudon Avenue Christian Church. AS: What kind of radio shows did you listen to? Do you remember any of them? JH: Well, of course all the church services that were aired at that time. And I can remember some talk shows. 0.10.12.9 AS: Did you look forward to listening to the shows with your brothers and mom and dad? JH: There were a couple of comedies like Amos and Andy. (chuckle) AS: Oh, OK. Did you sit on the porch in the evenings? JH: Yes. AS: Would you talk to your neighbors and socialize that way. JH: Yeah. I tell you one thing I remember now. My mother would go shopping and she could leave us under the guardianship of another neighbor who lived just across the street. AS: And she'd watch over you? JH: Yes. (chuckle) She was, at that point in her life, she was a widow and she stayed home a lot. I mean, she was always home. And she took care of the neighborhood. (chuckle) AS: And did you like her? JH: Well, yes. (chuckling) AS: Do you remember when you got a telephone or a refrigerator? JH: I think, as I recall, I think I was in college – I'm pretty sure I was near college age when we got a telephone. Now the refrigerator, I can't say exactly when that was. I can't. AS: Were they nice to have in your house? JH: What? AS: Was your mom happy to have the refrigerator? JH: Oh, yes, yes. The only way I can date was when I remember – My mother used to make ice cream and she made it somehow using the refrigerator ice trays and all that. My mother was a good cook and loved to cook. AS: What chores did you have around the house or around the neighborhood? JH: Well, I did the cleaning at home. My mother basically did all the cookin' and I took care of the cleaning. AS: Did your brothers have to help out with chores. JH: Yes. Of course keeping the yard And at that time, the furnace was coal and there was a coal house and they had to bring in the coal. AS: Did you have any family stories that were passed down from one generation to another? For instance, did your family talk about the Civil War or slavery or did you have like a favorite family recipe that was passed down from generation to generation? JH: Maybe recipes. My mother, as I said, like to cook and she received and passed on recipes. But I don't remember any – My father didn't go in the service. His brother did and I can remember my uncle telling stories about the service but not my dad. AS: Did you or a spouse or sibling or any of your children serve in the military at all? JH: No. Oh! My husband did. Yes, he served. AS: What war did her serve in? JH: I don't think there was a war. (pause) I can't remember if there was a war but I know that he was 3 �in the military service prior to my dating him, knowing him. AS: What businesses or shops did your family frequent or go to? Did you go to the city market? JH: Yes. There was a Saturday thing with my mother and shopping. AS: So would you go weekly to the city market kind of a thing? JH: Weekly, maybe even biweekly for vegetables. AS: What other businesses did you shop at? Did you shop on Henry Street? 0.14.52.4 JH: No, downtown. Now the earliest I can – There used to be a Shoops (??) downtown and a Montgomery Ward. And of course after I was an adult, I remember Pugh's and Heironimus. AS: Did you enjoy going shopping downtown? JH: Yes. AS: Were there grocery stores and stores over here in Gainsboro Northwest that you would go to? JH: There was a grocery store up on Patton Avenue and my husband's uncle and father had run that grocery store. We shopped there until they closed. In later years, when A&P came into business. AS: Do you have a favorite childhood memory? For instance, like a favorite holiday event or a favorite gift that you ever received? JH: You know the 4th of July, my father used to – He worked at Norfolk Western, so he got passes on the train and we had little excursions on the 4th of July. We always went to Washington DC to visit his brother and we'd just go up I think the night before, getting into Washington early morning on the 4th and then that night, we came back. AS: Would you see fireworks while you were there? JH: Yeah. They took us out to parks and so forth. And also, working for Norfolk Western, they had an annual picnic and the families were invited to go to these picnics. That was another. AS: Was it fun? JH: Yeah. And of course, the church had a church picnic. AS: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? You said your degree was in Sociology. JH: After leaving college, I worked for the YWCA as an office secretary. And when I left there, I worked for Roanoke Redevelopment and Housing Authority and that job was office management. And then I started working for Roanoke City Public Schools and I was a trainable Mentally Handicapped Teacher. I did that for 24 years. AS: Did you enjoy it? JH: Yes. Very rewarding. AS: What schools did you work at? JH: I worked at Tinkle Creek West End and Fishburn Park Elementary and then I retired from Addison Middle School. AS: Did you use the Gainsboro Library here? Do you remember Virginia Y. Lee? JH: Yes, very well. Mrs. Lee – See, we grew up on Rutheford and Mrs. Lee lived there on Harrison and her husband was the manger/Executive Director of the YMCA and my father was very active on the YMCA board. My brothers attended all those activities there at the YMCA. And of course, I came to the library here quite frequently. I knew Mrs. Lee very well. AS: And did you like her? Was she nice? JH: Lovely person. Mr. Lee was outstanding too. AS: Describe some of the cultural events that happened in Gainsboro? Do you ever remember entertainers coming to the Dumas or like any other major events like that that would happen? Like going to the theater? JH: I went to the theater but I did not go to the activities at the Dumas 'cause I was young. I guess I would have finished college before I frequented the Dumas that much for any activities. AS: Did your parents go to the Dumas or no? 4 �0.19.58.5 JH: My parents, most of their activities were church related. Or YMCA, as I mentioned about my daddy, he was on the board there. He went to Y for everything too, all activities but the other activities, no, we didn't get to go. AS: Who were some of the strong community leaders? JH: Of course, I mentioned the Lee's. The YWCA, there were several directors there that were strong. There was a Mrs. Lemay (??), Mrs. Christine Williams who was the director of the Y, Elizabeth Jordan and Mary Gates. All these are people who worked at the Y. The principals in the schools. Mrs. Fanny Estella Watson. She was a principal at Gainsboro school and a neighbor, so I knew her very, very well. AS: Did the community work together to encourage you to succeed? JH: You know, life was based around the school, the Y and the church. That's how people knew each other from church affiliation, the Y activities. AS: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? JH: Well, its no longer residential. This area is not residential now like it was 'cause people moved out in the suburban area, extended way out. And Roanoke has grown. At one time, if you went out to an activity, you knew the people who were there but that's not – Many more people here now and living farther away and other avenues of service and so forth, its different. AS: How was your life affected by the Civil Rights Movement and segregation? How did it change Roanoke? JH: Opportunities opened up for jobs. At one time, the only thing a college graduate could get would be a teaching position but that's not true now. There are many, many other opportunities for job placement. AS: When you went to school, it was segregated but when you were teaching, - Were you teaching during segregation or were the schools desegregated by then? JH: They were desegregated. AS: What kind of jobs were available for African-Americans when you were growing up? You said teachers but what kind of jobs could men get for instance? JH: Factories, postal service. That came into being – Or places like – I remember when it opened up so that black men could be employed at ABC stores and the post office and some factory positions. Of course, railroad – certain jobs on the railroad were available. AS: Was that a good job to have in this area? JH: Yes and according to the pay issued. My husband, when I married him, was a water on a dining car and all of the people who were over him were called stewards in charge and they didn't have a black one. But that finally worked up to where a black man could be a steward on a dining car. And then, when – he was promoted from being – I think they cut off a lot like waiters and such on the dining car and he got a job at Norfolk Southern's general office as a – I don't know what they would call that position - But anyway, he worked there as a clerk. 0.25.26.5 AS: So that must've been a good job. JH: That was a better job and with advantages like hospital insurance that came with that. Better hospitalization program than he had before. AS: Did people in the Gainsboro community, did they own their own businesses? JH: There were some, yes. There was one – There was a pharmacy. You know where the old Y was? AS: Yes. JH: OK, right across from there on that corner, there was a pharmacy owned. That little section there, there were several black businesses. There was a realty. Johnson-Reed (??) Realty. AS: What was the building right across here from the library? Is it the cleaners? JH: Claytor Clinic? 5 �AS: Is that what it - ? JH: That's the old building. That house, let me see, there were 2 doctors and a dentist. They were brothers. That's where I went. He was my physician. He delivered my children. There was a dentist office too but that was over at Henry Street. You know where Henry Street was? AS: Yeah. JH: There were a couple of dentists over there. There was a shoe shop there on Henry Street. A theater. AS: And you went to that theater? JH: Yes. 'Cause see it was segregated. We couldn't go downtown except there was a movie downtown called the Roanoker and it had a back entrance with stairs that you would go up and sit in a balcony like. AS: But you would just usually go to the one over here. JH: Yes. The Virginia Theater. AS: I've gone through all the questions that I had written out here to ask you but is there anything that we didn't cover that you would like to mention or share with us? JH: No, I don't think so. I think the opening up of the colleges, Hollins and Roanoke College meant a whole lot. My daughter went to Hollins and was one of the first black women to go to Hollins. AS: Really? JH: Hollins honors here in wonderful way now. She's on the board of directors there and they have done several tributes to her. AS: So it was a segregated college? Or was it just not JH: At first, black people didn't have – I don't know whether they would've taken them or not. But they were sought after after integration set in. The way she got interested, she met Chutlin Beardsly (??). When she was there as a student, he started working with her as far as theology. She's a minister. He encouraged her to go into the ministry. She was a music major. She worked at Hollins a year before she decided to go into the ministry. She went to Duke. AS: Duke Theology School? JH: Mm mm. Yes to the seminary there and when she finished her term there, she was ordained and worked as a chaplain in the prison system for 3 years and after that, she was commissioned to start a church by our denomination. So she has a church, Ray of Hope Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia, 3,000 members. 0.30.05.3 AS: Which daughter is this? JH: This is my oldest daughter, Cynthia. So that was one of the advantages that grew out of – And my second, no third daughter, received a scholarship to UVA through Norfolk Southern. AS: Wow. JH: In fact, she went to Norcross. She was selected by Norfolk Southern to go to Norcross and she finished high school and then she got the scholarship to UVA. So a whole lot of good things came out of the Norfolk Southern context. AS: That's wonderful. Did they do that for a lot of people? Did they give out scholarships a lot like that. JH: I don't know how it turned out to be. There were at one point, but I don't know what's going on now. AS: That is impressive that she got the scholarship. OK, I guess we're done with our recording. Thank you for participating. JH: OK. 6 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2660/HaleJanice.1.jpg ad8e775cfb040cd90d630448ce1df28c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Janice Hale Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Janice Hale Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 8 June 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 31:14 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8 June 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Janice Idena Hale; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HaleJanice https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2659/BowmanHarold_[compressed].mp3 b8851a3b69bfd71ee03896d49eb076e8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2659/BowmanHarold.pdf 53b5031cc89640b390c835597cce9d5d PDF Text Text Interviewee: Harold Bowman Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: This is a continuation of the interview with Mr. Harold Bowman. HB: I remember I got to tell you about the Depression. I remember that. I was born in '28. The Depression hit the next year. And of course, the South hadn't even got over the Civil War yet and now the Depression comes along. My daddy worked at the Norfolk & Western and sometimes he didn't work but 3 or 4 days a week. And of course he was laid off completely sometimes. He got a job at the Continental Can Company. And another time, he worked at Walker Foundry in Norwich. I remember we had come back from the country, get off the train, go into the Roanoke Wienie Stand and he'd get a bag full of hot dogs. I think they were 5 or 6 cents each then. AS: Wow. HB: And we'd catch the Belmont bus, Belmont Hill bus on Church Avenue and go home and have hot dogs. Sometimes, momma would fix cornbread and milk and onion for supper. And I didn't know what was going on at the time. I do know now. She let everybody else eat before she would put a bite in her mouth. As she cleaned up the table, she would eat what was left. That's how close it was. We would have salt-fish for breakfast. Salt-fish was 10 cents a pound. Its $1.70 a pound now. We'd have pancakes for breakfast and she couldn't make 'em fast enough. We'd have gravy and biscuits and sausage for breakfast sometimes. And there again, she didn't eat until everybody else ate. And I remember the Virginian Railway was run along the Roanoke River and that was about 1,000 yards away and I would play on the railroad and the river. I wasn't supposed to be there but that's where I'd go to play. I'd stand up on the bank above the railway and watch people climb up the coal cars and ride 'em down, throwing off coal as the train went down towards the Viscos. Then, they would get off there, take out a burlap sack out of their pocket and pick up the coal they had thrown out and filled up that sack to have coal to burn. AS: Wow. Did you ever – You were obviously very young when the Depression was but did you ever realize that your family had struggled at all or -? HB: I only realized in retrospect. I could look back and see what was happening. AS: So you never felt hungry or deprived? HB: Never. Never felt deprived. They took care of me. My father and mother were the best possible people. Didn't drink or smoke and saw to it that we went to church every Sunday and on Wednesday too to prayer meeting, 9th Street Church. In those days, I've got to tell you this, we dressed up to go to town and we'd go out the front door and walk to town which wasn't far off and leave the door open. AS: Just leave it open or leave it unlocked? HB: Leave it unlocked. We'd leave the screen door closed but the rest of the door open. AS: Wow. HB: I mean anybody could walk in at anytime. AS: I meant to ask you this, after your mother had you, did she continue working at American Viscos or did she stay at home. HB: No. She stayed at home. As a matter of fact, she only worked there before she got married. AS: Oh, OK. 0.04.32.7 HB: It was just the – Life was so beautiful and I was in the Army and Navy and traveled the world, crossed both oceans, crossed the Atlantic 4 times, crossed the Pacific twice, saw 6 different countries. Any my uncle, evidently, he had been in the Navy too and I was in the Navy pure chance but I was following him. He was an electrician. I was an electronic technician. And as a kid, I used to look at his books and study his books. So, I understood streetcars and when I rode the streetcars in Roanoke, I 1 �understood what was going on in the electrical end of it. And the power house was over there on Walnut Street. They made the power to run the streetcars, DC power. It was just – life was a beautiful thing and fascinated me. I had to know everything – how everything worked. I used to tear everything apart to see how it worked. But that's all I can think of at the moment. AS: OK. HB: Oh, I will tell you, there's another. There were lots of hobos when I was a kid. AS: Really? HB: When I played on the river, I'd find these hobo jungles. Sometimes they were in 'em. They weren't bad people, they were just down on their luck because of the Depression. And they would filter out into – Of course, a lot of 'em were drinkers but hobos would filter out into the neighborhood and people would give them something to eat. They'd do odd jobs. They didn't want a handout. They'd do odd jobs. They'd mow or paint or anything they could do to get the work in those days. I gotta tell you this. Have you ever heard of the Lance Furniture andirons, doorstops, carving sets, that was made at the Norfolk & Western? AS: No. HB: During the Depression. Well, there weren't a whole lot of jobs. They'd had a skeleton crew down there but there wasn't a whole lot of work for them. These people made home items, knives, lamps, salt shakers, pepper shakers, door stops. My father made a walnut desk for me down there which I still have. A carving set, candlestick holders, brass candlestick holders, lamps, salt and pepper shakers. My daughter has these things now. AS: Did the Norfolk & Western sell them for a profit or did the employees get to sell them? HB: No. The employees made them. Every employee down there made 'em, took 'em home with 'em. It was just – The Norfolk & Western didn't make 'em, the employees made 'em and carried 'em out. It was an underground – It was accepted but it was an underground thing going on. Everybody made this stuff and took it home with 'em. AS: Wow. HB: And the museum in Roanoke is trying to get a collection of those items now. My father made a set of andirons for us and a set of andirons for my grandfather. I got both sets now. AS: Wow. No, I had never heard of that. That's very interesting. HB: If you talk to the people in the museum, they know about the 1930s manufacturing that was going on at the Norfolk & Western. They machined and cast all kinds of home items. AS: Were they marked in any way so that you would know that's what it is? HB: Well, they weren't – Some people may have marked 'em but I remember stuff that was unmarked. But you can tell what it was by looking at it. It was manufactured down there. Castings and machine worked. Beautiful. AS: Wow. Is there anything else you'd like to tell us? HB: Well, it comes slowly. (chuckle) I guess that's all I can think of at the moment. AS: OK. Let's go back a little bit to when you were growing up in Roanoke. Can you describe your home life for me? For instance, did you have a radio that you would all listen to in the evening? 0.09.52.2 HB: Yes. And that was the most fascinating thing to me for somebody to be talking to me and music out of that box and I'd walk over and look in the back of it and see the tubes lit up and try to figure out what was going on in there. And that's why I made a life in electronics. Started out, I was building and repairing radios and at age 16 – Well first, at age 14, I was a bagger at Kroger's and then I went to Buybee (??) Supermarket at 15. And then at 16, I went to the Old Dominion Candy Company which was on Jefferson Street and I was a gopher. Do whatever they wanted, clean the machines or whatever. But, Sears Roebuck was right around the corner on Church Avenue right across from the Number 1 firehouse. I wanted a job there in the repair shop and I wanted to work on radios. They hired me and 2 �they told me that as soon as I got all the washing machines repaired, I could work on radios. They didn't think I could do it. I got all the washing machines repaired so I could work on radios. And then, at – Incidentally, in high school, at age 17, I built a, my friend and I built radio transmitters so we could talk to each other 2 blocks away. We were so far advanced in our electrical class that the teacher, W.I. Brinkley, Wade Irving Brinkley, used me and Bill as teachers assistants because we came in there already a whole semester ahead of everybody else that was there. Anyway, it was a fascinating job and school and Brinkley was not just a teacher, he was a personal friend of Bill and me. We loved him. We used to go visit him at his home. AS: That's wonderful. Do you remember the first time you got a telephone or a refrigerator? HB: Oh, that's right, we did have an ice box on our back porch. There was a hole drilled through the floor so that the water could drip out of the ice box into the ground under the back porch. In those days, you put a card out on a nail on the front porch with a number telling the ice man how many pounds of ice you wanted. Incidentally, when I got out of the Army, I couldn't find a job anywhere and I delivered ice. I got $26 a week and all the ice I could eat. AS: I'd do it for the ice but you could eat it. That sounds like fun. Did you have air or anything at your house? HB: No. No air conditioning. We eventually got a refrigerator and I gotta tell you about the washing machine though. It was a Maytag, square-tubbed wringer washing machine. And since my daddy worked at the Norfolk & Western, he made parts for it when it broke down. Kept that machine going for 39 years. AS: Wow. HB: And my mother got it from her uncle who was a washing machine, a Maytag Washing Machine salesman and Regina vacuum cleaner salesman. He had been in the Navy and was an electrician in the Navy. When he got out, he went to go to Ingleby (??) Electric, get a machine, put it in his pickup truck and go through the winding roads of Floyd County getting orders for machines. AS: What chores did you have around the house or did you have chores in your neighborhood too? HB: I didn't have chores in the neighborhood but I had to pull weeds in the yard, mow the yard, wash dishes, dry dishes, mostly dry dishes. My mother would wash 'em and I would dry them and that was a wonderful time of communication, talking to my mother. I remember one time, I gotta throw this in, I got mad at momma for something, for disciplining me probably. I said, “I hate you”. And she was at the sink washing dishes and I remember she immediately dried her hands, came over and sat down in a chair and pulled me up close to her and looked me right in the face and says, “But, I love you”. 0.15.22.7 AS: So she was a good mother? HB: Oh, the best and I have never ever seen her mad except maybe one time. She was out in the yard sweeping the walk and I was out there too. A car parked in front of the house. Two men got out and told her that she was delinquent in her Poll Tax. You know about Poll Tax? AS: Yes, for voting? HB: Yes. And if she didn't pay it, they would have to prosecute her for it. And she says, “I'd just like to see you try”. They didn't say another word. They got out. They walked away, got in the car and left. And I remember, I never paid any Poll Tax either. When my taxes were due and I got the tax, I went down to Salem Courthouse with the exact amount of money that I owed them, minus the Poll Tax, and paid 'em. And they told me, “We'll just have to add it to the delinquent tax.”. And I said, “Go right ahead.”. And eventually, the Poll Tax was declared illegal and we hadn't paid any Poll Tax and it went away and I started voting. AS: That's amazing. When did the Poll Tax go away? Do you remember? Was it in the 60s? HB: I don't remember. I guess it was in the 60s but it was probably in the late 60s because it was the 60s that I was paying taxes and not paying my Poll Tax. Oh, I gotta tell ya, at that house on 6th Street, it 3 �didn't have curb and gutter when I was a kid and it was a rough gravel road. And when they paved it and built the curbing and gutter, I can remember the steam, it was a coal-fired steam roller which was old at that time. But that's what rolled the street down flat and my brother and I were kids out there when the work was going on. We threw a tack out in the street in front of the stream roller and for some reason the operator lost control of his steam roller and ran over against the curb and we thought we had caused it and we ran and hid. (chuckling) AS: Did you have to take care of your younger brothers? Were you responsible for that or not as - ? HB: I somewhat assumed responsibility. And my brothers – and my greatest fun was to put him in a red wagon and I'd push him around and around the house as fast as I could and he would just scream. AS: Was that your youngest brother or your middle brother? HB: My middle brother. Oh, I gotta tell ya, the Clover Creamery at that time delivered milk to the house in a horse drawn cart. And one winter, after they paved the street, there was ice on the street and the horse came up the hill part of the way, slipped and fell. Feet went out from under him and the wagon and the horse all slid back to the foot of the hill. AS: Oh my goodness! HB: And I remember working at Clover Creamery one summer. I must've been 14, 13 or 14. Yeah, I worked at the Clover Creamery. I worked at the ice plant and Buybee Supermarket. I remember going to the market shopping with my mother. And of course in those days, they sold live chickens on the market. AS: This is down on Campbell? HB: No, the market was on – No, the market is right where it is now. AS: Right. HB: But there was an arcade market down there too which is no longer there. People backed up to this wooden structure with their trucks and loaded it into bins and you could walk through the middle and shop both sides where the vehicles were backed up. Very interesting place. 0.20.02.8 AS: So would you go to the market often? Is that where your mom shopped for her groceries? HB: Yeah. Farmers Market, always went to the Farmers Market for everything 'cause they were fresher. AS: What other businesses did your family use in Roanoke? HB: Well, I remember going shopping at Pugh's and Heironimus with my mother. I remember wooden floors that creaked when you walked. And I remember being kinda testy not wanting to be there and fussing and she would squat down beside me and tell me in a very soft voice, “Now if you don't behave, you're going to get a spanking when you get home.”. And I knew that was the truth. She never made a scene and she never screamed at me in my whole life. When her voice got soft, I knew to pay attention because she was delivering the real goods that I knew was going to happen. AS: I was going to ask you a question about – Did you use the streetcar system? You said you had an automobile. HB: We didn't have an automobile until some time in the '40s. We caught the bus. The bus passed right by our house. My daddy had an annual pass to ride the railroad and we'd take the train to Cambria, Virginia. You know where Cambria is? AS: No. HB: Cambria is right outside of Christainsburg. AS: OK. HB: That's where the railroad station was and we'd go up there and my grandfather would come over from Floyd to Cambria, meet us at the railroad station, take us back to the farm and we worked on the farm. We hoed, picked bugs off of the beans, picked fruit, fed chickens, slopped hogs. I helped put up hay, wheat, pulled corn, beans, everything that they did. And I appreciate what the farmers went 4 �through more than anything. There is nobody better than a farmer because they have to make their own time. Their scheduling, nobody makes them punch a clock and go to work. They have to be selfdriven, motivated. AS: That's so true. What did you do? You said you sold the ice when you came back from the Army. And then what were you able to do after that? Were you able to get a job in electronics. HB: I eventually got back on at Sears. See, when I came out of the Army, they didn't owe me a job because I had quit. If I had been drafted, they'd have been obligated to hold the job for me. But, they didn't have a job for me when I came back so I delivered ice right after that, the next summer, I got a job at Porterfield Distributing Company, Schlitz Beer Distributor. And when I went out there and spoke to Bittle and Bob Porterfield, I asked them if they happened to know Annabelle Porterfield that taught school at Morningside. They said, “She's our mother.”. And I said, “She's my favorite school teacher.”. And they said, “You're hired.”. (laughing) AS: That was the perfect job interview. HB: So I was a warehouse person, to keep the warehouse clean and load the trucks. They said – They showed us a little closet where there was a refrigerator and a couch to sit and they said, “This is the break room.” and “There's beer in the refrigerator and you can have all you want but if you're ever drunk, you're fired immediately.”. So I learned something. AS: They wouldn't do that nowadays. HB: But they were good people to work for. Oh, and then, the next year, I was hired by Sears Roebuck. AS: Was that down here in town? 0.24.48.7 HB: Yeah, on Church Avenue. And I worked in the shop where I had been before repairing radios. The next time I quit, I went in the Navy. Oh, when I got out of the Army, I joined the Air Corps Reserve. I was in that a few weeks and they moved the unit to Langley Field and I'd a have to have gone down there to maintain an active connection with the military so I joined the Navy Reserve instead. The Navy Reserve, I got 2 years of electronic training in the Navy Reserve and a man that I had been dealing with at HC Baker selling me radio parts when I was working at Sears and also as a kid – Oh, when I was 17, I went to HC Baker and bought a short wave radio and a meter, a test meter for pretty close to $200. Warren Davis, the proprietor, gave me credit at age 17 when you're not accountable for a debt. AS: Wow. HB: And when I joined the Navy Reserve, Warren Davis was an ensign there and my electronic instructor. AS: Had you paid him back the debt? HB: Sure I had. But I want to point out that here's another man who was my mentor and helped me through life. I met some of the nicest people in this town that helped me and were my friends and mentors that helped me be a success in life and Warren Davis was one of them. So he taught me electronics and then I was drafted in 1950 and sent to Korea on the Battleship New Jersey. And so I looked up Warren when I retired from General Electric, well when I came back from the Navy, I'm getting ahead of myself. When I came back from the Navy after 2 years in Korea, I went back to work at Sears and they sent me to TV school. And I stayed with 'em 3 more years as a TV repairman. And I didn't mention the man that hired me at Sears. Jay Madison Nace. Another mentor. A wonderful man and a practicing Christian who was not only interested in my welfare as a repairman and an employee, but also my spiritual health. A good man. Anyway, when I left Sears and went to GE and spent 33 years with them, I went back and looked up Warren and Madison Nace and thanked them both for helping me along in life. And I spent an hour and 45 minutes in Mr. Nace's home and he was retired too. And I found him and told him how much I loved him and what he meant to me. And I told Warren 5 �Davis the same thing and Warren Davis invited me, he and I found out we both had February as a birthday and we had our drink together in his apartment every year until he died after I retired from GE. And of course I met with Madison Nace in his home and told him what he meant to me and 3 months later he died of cancer. Merle MacNutt, I looked him up after I retired from GE. He was the shop foreman at Sears Roebuck, told him what he meant to me and he died of cancer a few months later. So I was lucky to get back to those people who were my friends and mentors in life. AS: Absolutely. HB: And I loved 'em. AS: Its nice they know how much a role model they were for you. 0.29.54.4 HB: I feel so blessed to have found them and told them what they meant to me and we all hugged. AS: That's wonderful. Do you have a favorite memory, a favorite childhood memory or just memory of growing up here in Roanoke? HB: The whole thing is so beautiful for me I can barely stand it. I went to the library which was an old house like this in Elmwood Park. AS: Oh, the Terry Building. HB: The Terry Building. And I remember walking up the spiral staircase to the little room at the top of that place and looking at arrowheads there and the steps would creak as I'd walk up. I remember – I used to look out into the park and enjoy the view. Incidentally, did you know there is a tree in Elmwood Park right now that blooms that was brought back from Japan by Commodore Matthew Perry. AS: Actually, I do know that and the only reason is because I just had to do research on that tree for someone who was looking for information about it, a Japanese Magnolia. HB: That Japanese Magnolia. That's one of my favorite trees. And when I was in Japan in 1950, I found a monument on the beach to Commodore Perry. AS: Really? HB: Who had been there just 100 years before and it meant something to me simply because Ms. Penn at Jefferson High School told me about Matthew Perry going to Japan to initiate an open door policy with Japan. And then I got to see it 100 years before and remembered her teaching me that. And that's just the connection. AS: That's wonderful. That is one of my favorite trees because of where I work in the Virginia Room, I get to look out and see it. It is wonderful. HB: And for all that stuff to come together for me, in my trip to Japan, it just – It means so much to me. I didn't really think that what she was teaching was sticking until I got over there. (Clap and chuckle) I didn't like history but things stick whether you want 'em to or not sometimes. AS: Did you have a drug store or anything that you would go to? HB: Yes, there was a drug store a block away, Saunders Drug Store. And on Sunday, when I got a nickel, I could go out there and get ice cream or a soda and I remember one time – See my daddy started a bank account for me, a savings account. One of his brothers gave me a silver dollar and that started my bank account. So, when I'd get a nickel or a quarter, I remember one time getting a quarter and I was going to the store to spend it and daddy says, “Now you're going to spend that quarter or put it in the bank so you'll have some money to buy a house with someday.”. I didn't go buy the ice cream, I saved it. AS: Oh my goodness. Not most kids would do that. HB: So, when I built my house, I had $5,000 to start my house with that I'm living in now. AS: Wow. HB: I saved a lot of money because I never got an allowance but occasionally I got money. And sometimes I would spend it and sometimes, I'd put it in my savings account. 6 �AS: That's wonderful. HB: So I've been saving all my life. AS: Its a good habit to have. I've gotten through the questions that we have designated to ask. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with me that we haven't talked about? HB: Well, about Roanoke? I remember going to the Academy of Music to see a show. I don't remember what the show was but I sure remember the building. Gas lamps on the walls and creaking boards as I walked down the aisle and a musty smell from a carpet and all that's good stuff. I have some gas lamps at home right now that came out of houses on Patterson Avenue as they were torn down. AS: So you salvaged them? HB: I salvaged gas lights. AS: Do you use them still? HB: I don't use them. I had plans for putting them in a room but I never even finished the room. But I made a living in electronics my whole life and I used to run the alleys looking for junk. And as a kid, if I found an iron or a toaster or a fan that didn't work in the alley, take it home and repair it and sell it and that's how I got money. AS: Thank you Mr. Bowman for meeting with us today and allowing us to do this interview with you. HB: I appreciate it. 7 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2659/BowmanHarold.1.jpg c7e001bd78dba1aa1e71f9131bae2bb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Harold Bowman Subject The topic of the resource Southeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Harold Bowman Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 8 June 2007 Location: Mountain View Recreation Center Total Duration: 36:21 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8 June 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Harold Edwin Bowman; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BowmanHarold https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2657/KefferAnn_[compressed].mp3 192e5f19682fd6f36af3194135a016b4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2657/KefferAnn.pdf 88f6105d3076eadd500c655292de888a PDF Text Text Interviewee: Ann Keffer Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AK: The Virginia Heights Elementary School had only one building at the time I was there and our fire escape was like a sliding board and it was enclosed. It looked like a silo-type thing. You could only get to it through one room in the building and everybody would come there and we'd have practices once a month. We'd have to get in there and slide around and you'd go around and around and around and come out the back bottom. I don't care how many times I'd get on it, I'd start out get on it with my feet front and when I'd finish I'd come out backwards. Somehow or another, I would get turned around. We never knew how. KT: But you just couldn't get out. AK: I couldn't go down straight to save my life. (laughing) KT: Do you remember did they do air raid or bomb drills when you were in school? AK: We had a couple of air raids and I don't remember when exactly. I was out of elementary school 'cause that was in the 40s and it would be at night. They would have a big blast, you know just practicing with them and that would be it. I know that we used to save all our grease and stuff and turn it in. You had to get stamps to get gasoline during the second World War and we had that. KT: Now did that affect your life? AK: No. We just had the one car and daddy drove it to work and then, like I say, if we went to the farm in Troutville, I did all the driving there. We didn't go a lot just down there. KT: So that didn't really hinder you? AK: No, because at the time my brother was in the service and we were trying to do everything we could for the servicemen. KT: ?? AK: At the age of 24. My mother was 2 and her brother was 4 and her sister was 6 weeks old. ______ and the 3 children were raised by different aunts so they weren't raised together. And her brother, when he, I don't know what age he got to but he moved to California and lived in California until his death. Her sister lived in Richmond until her death. And of course, mother here. KT: Now you mentioned that your mother worked. Was that unusual at that time for women to work? AK: I don't think so. She just preferred to work with the public rather than to keep house and raise a family. It was easier on her. KT: So who kept you during the day? AK: My aunt and my grandmother. KT: Were you very close with them? AK: Very close. Our whole family is close knit. KT: Can you describe the house of your childhood for us? AK: Well, the first house we lived in was on Grandin Road and I don't know how long we were there 'cause I was pre-school and then we moved to the 2100 block of Maiden Lane and it was a big 2 story house with 4 bedrooms and one bath and a wrap-a-round porch and its still there on the corner. And we moved up a block, 15 years later or something like that, the house we moved in on the next block was almost the duplicate of it. It just didn't have the wrap-a-round porch on it. KT: Do you remember sitting on the porch as a kid? AK: Oh yes. My father raised dogs. We had a farm in Troutville and we used to raise dogs and we'd bring some of 'em home on weekends and I would sit out on the porch and play with the dogs and take care of them. KT: Did your family have a garden at this house? AK: No, we had the garden at the farm. 1 �KT: What kind of activities did you participate in as a child either through school or just in the neighborhood? AK: In the neighborhood, I was the only girl. There were 5 boys on the block. So, I learned to play football, basketball, baseball, kick the can. All the games that the guys played. KT: Can you describe kick the can again? AK: (laughing) You'd get an old tin can that was empty and you'd set it out in the middle of the street and somebody would be “it” and they would run up and kick the can and as soon as they kicked the can, everybody would spread around and go hide and whoever was “it” had to go find 'em. And the last person they found became “it”. KT: What kind of work did your family do? I know you kinda made mention... AK: My father – Let me backtrack. My grandfather on my father's side was from North Carolina and he was in the Civil War. When he mustered out of the Civil War, he went to Rocky Mount, Virginia, because his sister's husband was killed in the war and she had a farm there. He went to help her close out her farm and he was engaged to a lady in North Carolina at the time. When he got to Rocky Mount, he met my grandmother who was 16 at the time. They fell in love and he waited until she grew up and when she turned 26, they married. They had 4 children. Three survived, my father and his 2 sisters. And when the last child was born, my grandfather was 73 years old. He was 37 years older than my grandmother. And after he died, my father used to drive traveling salesmen across Grassy Hill which was the mountain between Rocky Mount and Roanoke 'cause they were scared to drive it. He'd bring 'em to Roanoke to do their business and then take them back to Rocky Mount. After a few months after he turned 16, they sold the farm and moved to Roanoke, his mother and 2 sisters and himself. He lied about his age and got a job at the American Viscos. After he became a supervisor, he had his age changed back so he could retire at the proper age. But, unfortunately, he died at 54 at American Viscos. So he was employed at American Viscos all his life. 0.05.56.4 KT: Now, for me, I'm not familiar with it. What was American Viscos? AK: American Viscos made rayon and during the second World War, they started making parachutes for the government and because of that, the government came in and put tunnels underneath the ground over there so if we had any air raids, the people who worked there could go under the ground and be safe. And when I got out of high school, I went to work for 'em. And I worked in what they called the “back engineers office” for several months, maybe a year. Then I was moved up to the front office and in the payroll department in the IBM department and started doing all the payroll. And when they closed the American Viscos in '58 I think it was, it was a guard and I were the only ones left for 2 weeks after it was closed up. We did the inventory and I was doing payroll at the time. So, it was just the 2 of us there and we closed it up. KT: Did you ever have to use the underground tunnels? AK: No. KT: Let's talk a little bit about your school life. Where did you attend school? AK: I went to Virginia Heights Elementary School and then Woodrow Wilson Junior High School and Jefferson High School. KT: Did you walk to school or did a bus come? AK: Walked. KT: And how far was it? AK: Virginia Heights is right down at the end of Grandin Road. It wasn't far and then when we lived on Maiden Lane, I walked to Woodrow Wilson and that wasn't far. And then I walked to Jefferson which is downtown now. Once in a while, I'd ride a bus. But we didn't have a regular school bus so you just rode the regular city bus. KT: Did you ever have to stay home from school for anything? 2 �AK: When I was probably 8 years old, I wanted to take swimming lessons. And my father said the only way I could do that was to have a physical. So my aunt took me down to the doctor for my physical which he gave to me and after he finished, he asked my aunt, “How did you get downtown?”. She said, “We rode the streetcar down.” He said, “Well, I want you to get a cab and take her home and put her to bed and if she lives 6 weeks we'll be lucky.”. I had a heart condition. I was in bed, flat on my back for 6 months. They wouldn't let me put my feet on the floor and I was out of school for 2 years. So I was 2 years behind graduating with my class. During that time that I was in bed, my teacher from Virginia Heights came a couple of times a week and I think we did more listening to the radio than we did class studying or anything. KT: Do you remember what the condition was called? AK: I had heart murmur. I originally had Rheumatic Fever when I was younger and that went into the heart murmur. KT: When did you graduate from high school? AK: I graduated in 1956. KT: What did you do after high school? AK: I went to work at American Viscos. KT: Did you ever do any college or any schooling after that? AK: I wanted to be a veterinarian and my mother said, “Ladies aren't veterinarians.”, so I decided not to go to college. So I just went to work at American Viscos and after they closed I went to work for Allstate Insurance and worked there until after I was married and became pregnant with my first child and at that time, I quit work. KT: Now this is kinda going back to the childhood and the life at home. What was kind of a typical day in your life like as a child? AK: Oh gosh. I would play outside and then when my dad would come home from work, I'd go wherever he went. He taught me to drive a car at 9 years old 'cause he had a heart condition. Whenever we went anywhere, I drove all the time. And to back track a little bit, my mother's father used to drive the streetcar up and down Mill Mountain. And he dropped dead in front of the courthouse in Roanoke in 1933. That was before I was born. 0.10.03.5 KT: Oh gosh. Now did you guys have a radio or a television? AK: Had radios and didn't get television until 1953 or something like that when they got the first television studio here and then we got a TV. KT: Do you remember any particular technology that was really kind of a big deal like telephones, refrigerators? AK: No, we had all that. KT: Did ya? AK: Yeah. KT: OK. Do you remember your first television? AK: Yeah, when we got it – I want to say it was '53. It was before my father died and he died in '54. It was just a standard square TV, black and white. KT: Did you have a favorite program? AK: I don't remember having one. KT: I know we talked about this a little bit but did your family actually sit on the porch in the evenings after work was through? AK: Yeah. My grandmother didn't because her bedroom was upstairs and she couldn't get up and down the steps. She had diabetes and wasn't well at all. And she lived to be 94. And didn't died until – but she had an incident with her diabetes in the middle of the night one night and the only doctor we could get was a neighbor who was a surgeon, Dr. Barn. And he came and sat with her all night and he 3 �said, “I doubt if she'll live through the night.”. That was back in the early 50s, late 40s-early 50s. And as I said, she didn't die until 1965 and she was 94 at the time of her death. KT: She made it through. AK: Mm mm. KT: What kind of chores were you expected to do around the house? AK: Oh, dust, sweep, not a whole lot. KT: Nothing too taxing? AK: No. KT: Were you treated any different because of your heart condition? AK: No. KT: I know we discussed the Civil War story, were there any other stories that have been passed down from generations? AK: No just the Civil War and my mother's father dying and her mother dying in the early age with pneumonia. One of my father's cousins, I believe, a Webb, was also the police chief in Roanoke for a number of years but I don't exactly when. KT: Is there any particular family recipe that made it down through the generations? AK: I have my grandmother's recipe for homemade bread, but unfortunately, it makes like 12 loaves and I couldn't cut it down so I never made it. When she lived in Rocky Mount, she did a lot of baking and stuff and she also was a seamstress and she used to make wedding dresses for the ladies in Rocky Mount. And she made her own clothes and she used to make jackets with wide arms and my father and I did a lot of hunting and one time, we were out hunting and the dog came back with a quail in his mouth that wasn't hurt. He had a bad wing and that was all. So, we brought him home and my grandmother made a pet out of it. It would fly up in her arm and go up her sleeves and sleep. And then at night, she would put him in a cage and when the phone would ring, he would whistle at the top of the steps until somebody would answer it. He lived about 7 or 8 years which was long for a quail. KT: Never heard of one as a pet though. AK: I know and nobody else has either. KT: Did any of your family serve in the military? AK: My brother was in the second World War. My father was too young for the first World War and too old for the second World War. But my brother served in the Navy. KT: And you said your, was it grandfather or great-grandfather that was in the Civil War? AK: My grandfather was in the war. My father's father. KT: In the local area, what businesses and shops did you frequent? AK: Oh, I went to the Grandin Theater all the time 'cause you could go for a quarter and on Saturdays, they had the serial shows. You'd see those and stay for the regular movie. Pugh's, it used to be Pugh's downtown on the corner of Campbell Avenue and 1st Street. Across from them was Heironimus before they moved and across on the other corner was Leggett's. My mother worked for Leggett's. I went to all of 'em. And John Payne was born in Roanoke, the movie star. KT: Mm mm. AK: And grew up in Salem and when he would come to town with one of his wives which was Gloria de Haven, they would go in the shop where my mother worked at that time, a dress shop, and buy clothes from her. And where the Patrick Henry High School is now, that was called Shriner's Field. When we were growing up, my dad used to go up there and shoot skeet on the top of the hill. 0.15.07.3 KT: What would you say is your most fond childhood memory? Do you have any that stick out in your mind? AK: No. We used to go to the Roanoke Red Sox baseball game. They were a farm team of the Boston Red Sox and my dad and I would go to a lot of the baseball games. Anything I did with my dad was a 4 �fond memory. I was very close to him. KT: Were there any stories about raising dogs? AK: Yes. When he died, I had 100 dogs to find homes for. We had all kinds, hunting dogs, pet dogs, whatever you want. He found a dog in a magazine that was for sale out of California that was a Setter and he decided he'd like to get it for stud purposes so he bought it. It was very expensive when he bought it. He had it shipped to Roanoke. We picked it up and took it down to the farm. There were about 4 boys that lived at different sections down in Troutville and he more or less kinda help raise them. Made sure they stayed in school, taught 'em how to drive a car. He just was there for 'em. And this particular day we were taking the dog down. We took it down and left it at the farm and was driving back down the road and we passed these boys at one of the boy's houses and they were playing. And all of a sudden, one of their dogs jumped the fence and hit the back of that car and broke its neck. And of course we stopped and the boys were crying and everything and daddy said, “Get in the car. We'll go up to the farm and find you another dog.”. So we went back to the farm and we got out and they looked at all the dogs and ended up taking the one that he'd just got. He put it in the car and took it back to 'em and said, “Y'all have a good time.”. Never saw a child he didn't like or a dog he didn't like. KT: Do you remember a favorite holiday event in your house? AK: Christmas was always a big deal at our house. KT: Was it? AK: Mm mm. Not so much a lot of presents because we didn't have a lot of money but just Christmas. And when my brother got out of the service, he moved to Reidsville, North Carolina and worked for the American Tobacco Company, he and his wife. My dad would not let us start trimming the Christmas tree until they got to town because my sister-in-law loved to trim the tree. So we couldn't do anything until she got there. KT: When would you put your tree up? AK: Christmas Eve. KT: So not before? AK: Not before. And we'd take it down New Year's Day. KT: What was Christmas morning like? AK: Fun. Couldn't go down until everybody was up and we'd go down and open our packages and have breakfast. KT: Did you have a big dinner? AK: Not real big, no. KT: Do you have a family vacation that sticks out in your mind? AK: We didn't take vacations. Daddy always worked and if he took any time off, he would go hunting for the day or something like that. So, it wasn't until 1945 that my mother and her sister and myself went to California to meet and see her brother. That's the only time I ever met him. We rode the train out and while we were on the train, war was declared over and there was a group of troops on there and they just partied the whole time. We just had a ball. We went to California and spent about 2 weeks in California and then came home. KT: OK. Any other vacations that you might have taken or ? AK: Well, my mother and I used to go what they call the Billy Sunday Bible Study Class in Winona Lake, Indiana. We'd go there maybe once a month, once a week – one week out of the summer with the bible study group. KT: Any travels abroad? AK: Went to Egypt. My mother's brother at that time – Her half brother. Her father remarried and had another child. Her half brother was with the Misirayon (??) which was like the American Viscos here only they operated outside the United States. Their main office was in New York but they had all their 5 �plants outside of the United States because the American Viscos. He was in Egypt at the time that my father died and he came for the funeral and everything and convinced my mother and I to go back with he and his wife. So we went to Egypt in January or '55 and stayed until the end of May. And on the way over, we went to Rome, Italy, Madrid, Spain and then coming back we went to Athens, Greece and Paris, France. But the most of our time was spent in Cathay el Dawar (??), Egypt which is right outside of Alexandria, Egypt, like Roanoke and Salem. We spent a week in Jerusalem. One of his men that worked for him took us to Jerusalem for a week and then he took us to Cairo and showed us his Cairo and things like that. 0.20.27.5 KT: Did you see the pyramids? AK: Saw the pyramids. Saw the Sphinx. Rode a camel. And they had just dug up a boat and we road the camel up next to where the big hole was where the boat was and the camel is going sideways the whole time I'm sitting there. And I can see myself going over in this hole. KT: Was that a pretty neat experience? AK: Yes it was. KT: Do have a favorite gift that comes to mind that you've ever received? AK: I can't think of one off the top of my head. KT: OK. If you think of it, just shout it out. What are some of your memories about the community of Grandin itself? AK: It was a close-knit community. Like I said, we used to walk down Grandin Road and go to the ice cream parlor and go to the movies and Gone With The Wind was playing at the Grandin and I remember there was a line all the way around the block. The firehouse was down there and it still is. Just a lot of fond memories growing up there. KT: Was your life effected by segregation or the Civil Rights Movement in any way? AK: No. When I was growing up of course we were segregated but it wasn't effected because my father had quite a few colored gentlemen and women that worked under him at American Viscos and they were all his friends. One gentleman would come to the house and do work around the yard for us and his name was Charlie and I always referred to him as Charlie. He would sometimes bring his little children with him and I'd play with the children. Segregation never bothered us per se because I was used to being around the blacks and the ones I was around were very, very friendly and nice. KT: Do you remember if it had a different effect on the community or do you remember? AK: I don't remember. I just remember when they started lettin' 'em – there used to be fountains that said Whites and Blacks and restrooms that said Whites and Blacks and then they started use all of them together. And I can't remember any problems here in Roanoke. The big problems were in Danville. They marched in Danville and everything. KT: I know you brought some notes. Would you like to go over some of them? AK: Yeah. I was just going to tell you about Wasena Bridge. This is a story that my brother told me. When they were building the rails on the side of it, people used to go by and put coins in the wet cement so the sides of Wasena Bridge are full of money. There's a cavern that runs – The caverns or tunnels under the old American Viscos as I told you earlier where the government put them in in case of an air raids because of them making the parachutes. There's a fault that runs from Shawsville to below Hollins College under the ground. I went to work for a friend after I was divorced and he built a building right outside of Shawsville and I told him when he started building, I said, “Now you be careful 'cause there are faults under there.”. And he hit one of 'em and he had to fill the ground up with dirt before he could put his building there. And there's a creek that runs – Or there used to be a creek that runs under the old Ponce de Leon Hotel on Campbell Avenue. It ran all the way down below the N&W shops and you used to could go down to the Ponce de Leon in their basement floor. They had a beauty shop and things like that down there. And they had the creek open so that you could sit down 6 �there and drink tea and watch the creek go by. Over the years, they have since closed that up. KT: Did you mention something earlier about going to the Ponce de Leon when you were a kid? AK: That was the one where I went down to the Patrick Henry Hotel which is across the street. That's the one I meant. In around '42, '43, '44, somewhere along in there, maybe a little bit later, I was very young. It might have been in the late 40s. Wes Moreland who was a Hollywood make-up artist had come to the hotel to give demonstrations. They had a ladies beauty shop and barber shop down in their basement. __________ (??) And my aunt that lived with us, Aunt Blanche, took me down there because she wanted to go down and see his demonstration and he ended up showing me how to put make-up on myself. So that was very interesting. 0.25.20.5 KT: And how old were you when you did that? AK: I was probably about 7 or 8, somewhere along in there. KT: OK. AK: The first DMV office was down on 8th Street Southeast and they moved it to 8th Street off of Campbell Avenue in Southwest a number of years later. That's where I got my permit back in '57 I think it was. I wouldn't get it any earlier than I should have. Then it was moved to Peters Creek Road and now its at Crossroads. We had several hospitals in Roanoke. We had the Jefferson Hospital at the far end of Jefferson Street which is where the Hayes, Seay, Mattern and Mattern Building is now. And going back towards town, we had the – that was the Jefferson Hospital – Downtown we had the Shenandoah Hospital which was between 7th and 8th Streets Southwest off of Campbell Avenue. That's where I was born. And it was open until around 1966 when they tore it down. Then we had lots of movie theaters downtown. We had the Park Theater which was right up the street from the Patrick Henry Hotel and then we had the Jefferson Theater down one more street. Then we had the American Theater down one more street where the bank is now. Then around the corner on Campbell Avenue, we had the Roanoke Theater which had a big stage and we'd have a lot of stage acts there. And the movie start that I remember was Lash Larue a Western movie star came one time and performed there. And then we had the Rialto Theater which was down Campbell Avenue where the parking garage is now. They were mostly Westerns and my friends and I used to go to the Rialto and see the Westerns and then we'd go over to the Hotel Roanoke and have lunch. And of course, there was the Grandin Theater on Grandin Road and there was the Lee Theater on Williamson Road. And Salem had a Salem Theater and we had lots of drive-in theaters. We had the Lee-hi Drive-In on Apperson where the bowling alley is now. We had the Shenandoah Drive-In on Shenandoah Avenue. There was another drive-in next door to it but I don't remember what it was called. Then we had the Trail Drive-In which was on 460. KT: Did you go to the drive-ins often? AK: Mm mm. When I was a teenager in high school, we would go to the drive-in on weekends. KT: Did you ever sneak anybody in? AK: Oh no. KT: Never did. AK: No, no, no, no. KT: OK. AK: (papers rustling) My grandfather, my mother's father, drove the streetcar up and down Mill Mountain – and Shriner's Hill - and the Roanoke Dairy used to be on Franklin Road at the lower part of Franklin Road and then they moved it over off of Melrose. Its no longer in business but they used to have ice cream and they'd fix their ice cream cones and they would dip their ice cream out with a spatula and it would be an ice cream cone sideways. It wasn't round, it was sideways. I remember things like that that impressed me. KT: Was it good ice cream? AK: Very good ice cream. And then the Elk's Club used to be downtown on Jefferson Street where the 7 �Blue Cross Building is now. And I told you about John Payne. The Greyhound Bus Station used to be on Church Avenue where the K&W was. They tore it down and put the K&W in there and then put – after them I think there's a gym there or something down there now and they moved the Greyhound down the road on Franklin Road and then they moved it up on Salem Avenue. I think that's where it is now. And I told you there was Pugh's Department Store on Campbell Avenue that had wooden floors. I used to go in there with high heels on and walk around. Heironimus was across the street and then when they built their new building, Miller & Rhodes came in there. Across from them, on the other side, was Leggett's. Those are the only big department stores I remember. We had Woolworth's dime store. That was a nice store. That's about it. 0.30.15.0 KT: I know you mentioned a lot of theaters. Do you remember any of the musical venues or places to see and hear music? AK: We had the music hall. It was called something else. It was on Salem Avenue. They would have programs and things like that. I think that was in the paper the other day. (papers rustling) Roanoke Academy of Music is what it was called and they would have shows there. And after they stopped using it, they started using the place over where the Roanoke Civic Center is now. There was a building there before that was like the music hall and we would go there for different things. Elvis Presley performed there but it was before he was known as Elvis Presley. He was playing the drums for a Country and Western group. KT: Did you see it. AK: Mm mm. I'm a very big Elvis Presley fan. I have all his records and I went to see all of his shows when he was in Roanoke. KT: Do you remember one that sticks out in your mind? AK: They all stick out. KT: Do they? AK: And when my little girl was about 3 or 4, I guess 4 years old, I took her and he gave her one of his scarves. KT: Do you still have that? AK: Mm mm. KT: Framed? AK: No. Just had it put up. Now my daughter has met Mohammad Ali. She met him on the airplane and got his autograph since he's been sick. She met the big basketball team out of California. I can't remember what it was but Magic Johnson played for 'em. She met him and shook his hand and everything. She's a big sports nut. KT: Do you remember any other musical shows that you went to? AK: No. I went to see – He just died recently. I can't think of his name now – Johnny Cash. He was here and he was at the Victory Stadium. That was before he and the lady he married but she was with him though. He was there. Gene Autry came one time. That's about all I can remember. KT: You made mention of your daughter. How many children do you have? AK: I had 2. My daughter is with Bell South which is now AT&T I think. She's older. I don't want to give out her age. And then I have a son who is the golf pro and general manager at Botetourt Country Club. Their father was a big golfer in the state of Virginia up until his death. He was well known in the state of Virginia and Roanoke. KT: Do you have any grandchildren? AK: I have one little granddaughter. She's 4 years old and she's named after her grandfather. Her name is Dani Cassel Keffer. Very spoiled. KT: Is she? AK: Speaks Spanish some and eats with chopsticks. 8 �KT: At 4? AK: Mm mm. KT: Good for her. I still can't do those things. (laughing) AK: I can't either and her doctor, when she was in for one of her examinations, she was 7 weeks early. He asked her father, “How is she with her silverware?”. He said, “Just fine. She manages a fork and spoon. She eats with chopsticks.”. The doctor said, “She does what?”. He said, “She eats with chopsticks.”. He said, “Well, I can't do that.”. And Charlie said, “I can't either.”. KT: It sounds like she's doing alright. You made mention that your brother was 15 years older than you. Do you have any memories of maybe visiting him? How was your relationship? AK: The very biggest memory that I have that sticks in my mind like crazy – Of course, when I came along, he was in high school and then he went into the service. I can remember the day he left for the service. Then when he got out of the service, he went to the University of North Carolina to get his college education. Then, he was married and lived in North Carolina and I would go down to visit them. Then, he went with the FBI and they transferred him to several different locations over the years and he ended up in Elkins, West Virginia, his last location. And he has 2 daughters. One is married to a neurosurgeon and they live in Iowa City, Iowa, and the youngest one is a school teacher outside of Washington. 0.35.10.1 KT: Do you still see him? AK: Oh yes. And as I said, he's 15 years older than I am. He will be 86 at the end of April. In fact I talked to him last night. KT: Is he is Elkins still? AK: Still in Elkins. They decided just to stay there when he retired because they had so many friends there at the time. He had a quadruple bypass a number of years ago and has a pacemaker. In fact, he just had a new pacemaker put in around Christmastime and he's doing great. Knock on wood. KT: Did you ever go to visit him when you were little? AK: I went to visit him after he was married and when he lived in Reidsville, North Carolina. I went and spent a week with him. Then, when they moved to different places – when my father died, I went and lived with him about 6 months. And that was in Chillicothe, Ohio. KT: Where is that? AK: Chillicothe, Ohio. I stayed there about 6 months. I can tell you a funny story. He had to take the bureau car in to have some work done on it and when it got ready, they called and told him that it was ready. He asked me if I would like to go with him to pick it up. He said, “We've got to walk about 16 blocks or 18 blocks. I said, “Sure, I'd love to go.”. And I wasn't familiar with the city 'cause I hadn't lived there that long. We walked the 16 or 18 blocks to pick up the car and when we got there, they had it ready. He was getting in. I went over to the door and opened the door and started to get in. He said, “What are you doing?”. I said, “I'm getting in the car.”. He said, “I'm sorry. You can't get in.”. I said, “Why?”. He said, “Its the bureau car, you can't ride in it.”. I had to walk back the 16 blocks by myself and when I got home, of course he was there. He was standing on the back porch just dying laughing because I had to walk it back by myself. KT: So he got you? AK: He got me quite often. I'd come in while I was living there 'cause I finished out the school year there and I'd come in some days and he'd be home and he'd drop bags of water on my head as I came up the steps. He was a big tease. KT: Was he? You said you had some schooling while you were there? AK: Yes. This is right after my father died. I went to live with them. Daddy died in April and I finished out that school year there with them and then moved back to Roanoke 'cause I missed all my friends. That's when my mother and I got an apartment together. I went to visit him in Elkins before I 9 �was married and I got to Covington. At that time, I went up through Hot Springs and around that way and it was 5 mountains to cross. Since then, I have found a better route. I got to Covington, and it started snowing on me and I didn't have enough sense to stop and get chains put on my car and I kept on going. I got to the point where I started to cross the mountains and it was just one lane. Snow was built up on both sides of me and I had to maintain a certain speed and if I got too slow then I'd start spinning. If I got too fast, I'd start sliding. So it took me a while to get there and I finally got there and I got into his driveway and got stuck. I had to wait 2 weeks for it melt enough that we could dig me out. When I went to the door and he opened the door, he said, “What in the world are you doing here?”. I said, “I told you I was coming.”. He said, “Yeah, but the roads have been closed.”. I said, “Nobody called and told me this.”. He said, “The roads have been closed for a couple of days.”. KT: But you made it there? AK: Yeah. And then another story – I went up to stay with his oldest daughter when his wife had their second child and I had a tendency to drive a little fast. I started up there and when I got to the West Virginia line, a county sheriff pulled in behind me, or a state policeman. I can't remember which it was. He followed me 'til we got to the next county line and he pulled off and another one pulled in behind me and so I had to take my time driving. I had a policeman behind me all the way to his house. So when I got there, I told 'em, “I'd have been here at least an hour or an hour and a half sooner but I had cops behind me the whole way.”. He started laughing. He said, “That's my fault.”. I said, “What do you mean that's your fault?”. He said, “I happened to mention to the captain when I was down there that my baby sister was coming in and keep an eye out for her.”. KT: So they really kept an eye out for you. AK: They really kept an eye out. And he always referred to me as his baby sister. And I was up there one time. He and I went out to dinner and my sister-in-law had a meeting somewhere and she didn't go with us and one of her friends saw us. And the next day, she called my sister-in-law to tell her that she had seen him out with another woman. And she said, “Well, that's his sister.”. She said, “No. His sister's a baby.”. She said, “No, that his sister.”. (laughing) 0.39.53.5 KT: Small town. AK: Small town. KT: Well, is there anything else that you can think of to share? AK: No. Like I said, Roanoke was a wonderful place to grow up in. We could walk most anywhere we wanted to. We used to leave our front doors unlocked. We'd even walk to Victory Stadium to the football games some Friday nights, high school games. The gentleman I married, Dan Keffer, we went to high school together but didn't know each other. And when I went to work at American Viscos, he was co-oping. He was going to Tech at the time and co-oping over there and we met there and started dating and that's when we got married. At the time, he had flunked out of school 3 times. He majored in Bridge one time, Pool one time and Golf one time. And when we got back off our honeymoon, his mother was sitting on the sofa with a letter from the dean and he had become on a first name basis with T. Marshall Hahn (??) that he'd flunked out again. I said, “Danny, if you would please go back, I'll work and put you through college.”. So, of course, I was working at the time at Allstate and continued working and put him through college and he made the Dean's List. He had 2 ½ years left and he made the Dean's List every year. Very smart man. He just didn't use his brain. He ended up as a mechanical engineer and went to work for Hayes, Seay, Mattern and Mattern and then went to work for __________ (??) (??) and became a partner with them and then opened his own business later on, Charleston Keffer and then after 23 years, we were divorced. We remained friends until the day he died. In fact, he sent me cards every holiday, birthday, everything. KT: So you still had a good relationship? AK: We had a very good relationship because we had 2 children together and we did everything where 10 �the children were concerned. We'd go to all their school function and athletic functions, whatever, together. And we were always there for the children at all times. KT: Did you play golf together? AK: Several time we did. He remarried but we still played golf together several times. And we'd win our tournaments and everything. KT: Is there anything else you'd like to share? AK: I can't think of anything. I probably get out of here and start thinking all kind of things. Like I said, I don't know how much of this stuff would be interesting because its just stuff that I did. KT: Oh, its all very interesting. So I'm going to stop the recording right now and we can always come back if there is anything else. We're just going to add some information about Ms. Keffer's trip to Egypt. AK: My uncle lived in Cathe el Dawar (??) which is outside of Alexandria and he lived on what they called the Canal Road and you drove up and down the Canal Road to get back and forth. And at night, the cars would drive with their lights off until they met somebody and then they'd turn 'em on. You'd go to a movie downtown in Cathe el Dawar, I mean in Alexandria, or anywhere, and when the movies let out, the people would walk out in the street and the cars would have to drive on the sidewalk to get around them. The men back in the 50's when I was there, were the long dress-like tops and they'd be walking along the Canal Road and if they had to go to the bathroom, they'd just raise up their clothes and go. At my aunt and uncle's home, they had servants and they were men. And they had a man that worked for them that did all the cooking. At night, he would run our bath for us every night and turn the beds down for us and put our clothes out for us to put on. It was just a treat. Very, very friendly. The women had to kinda take a back seat to everything and you didn't – And if somebody came to your house, especially a man, if you were there alone, you didn't invite him in because that was a sign to them, “Hey, she's ready and willing.”. And while we were there, one of the gentlemen that worked for my uncle got married and he made arrangements for us to come to the wedding. I even have an invitation all in Arabic and the ladies had to stay in one room and the men in the other room during all these weddings. But we were allowed to go in where the men were, my mother and I, because we were guests of theirs and we got to see the wedding itself. They served what I called rose water. It was a little cup with the strongest red water you ever tasted and it was rose colored, rose tasting. You had to drink it or it was an affront to them. But it was horrible. Like I say, the gentleman took us around, showed us his Cairo and we went a lot of places that normal tourists wouldn't have gone. 0.45.02.7 KT: How were you treated when you were there? AK: Marvelous. Just really, really nice. KT: The people were friendly? AK: Yes, very friendly. In fact, my uncle had asked my mother to let me stay and go to school over there. He'd put me through school and she wouldn't – didn't tell me until we were on the plane coming back home because she knew I would've stayed. I loved it and I would love to go back. We had sandstorms a couple of times and the sand would even come in under the door at the apartment and we weren't close to the sand at that time but it just blew so hard. KT: Was that scary? AK: Yes. I rode the camel and saw the Sphinx and the pyramids and went down the River Nile on a sailboat with 4 Greeks who couldn't speak English and I couldn't speak Greek. I couldn't swim. (laughing) They were friends of my uncles and they took me down the River Nile. I spent my 18th birthday on the River Jordan. Brought back water from the Jordan River to baptize my children with when I had 'em. KT: And you did that? AK: Mm mm. 11 �KT: Well that's very special. OK, we're going to stop again and we can always restart. 12 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2657/Keffer_Ann_29_March_2007.JPG a6716a4c0af19b1ef5032c3e20e55bf8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ann C. Keffer Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ann C. Keffer Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 29 March 2007 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 46:29 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 29 March 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ann Connolly Keffer; Kellie Thomas; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KefferAnn https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2656/AusitinRebecca.pdf 269ddeca41f470ee757bd4130a40c22a PDF Text Text Interviewee: Rebecca H. Raper Austin Interviewer: Arlene Ollie Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AO: Today is March 23, 2007, my name is Arlene Ollie and I am about to interview Rebecca H. Raper Austin. Could you tell me when and where you were born? RA: I was born in Lexington, North Carolina, on December 16, 1928. I weighed the great sum of 2 pounds and I was very fortunate to have good care but there were no facilities for newborns in hospitals in 1928. We lived in the country with my grandparents and we had family friend and retainer who looked after me when I was so small and she kept me on warm pillows for about the first year of my life. My mother, when I was born, dislocated her shoulder and her eyesight was affected so she didn't see me really well until I was about a year old. But by 2, I was normal size and going strong. Aunt Sally Hayden kept me on pillows at 80 degrees for day and night for the first year of my life. But I was normal by the time I was 2 and I was OK since. AO: I'm kinda curious. How did she warm the pillows? RA: I don't know. I was a little too young to remember but I guess by the stove. It was a large old home out in the country and with no doubt a wood stove. There was heat in the house, fireplaces or whatever. I judged that she kept 'em warm somewhere around the stove and it was sort of remarkable that I survived but I did. AO: That's so interesting. Tell me about your parents, brothers and sisters and if you had any extended family living nearby. RA: I have extended family all over North Carolina but (laughing) many cousins and so forth. My father and mother – Mother was a school teacher and she met daddy when she came to the small community of Lynnwood, North Carolina to teach. Daddy had finished college. Well, he had been in World War I and came back and finished college and then taught in Murphy, North Carolina for a short while but his mother died in 1924 and he came back to help his father out. He had 4 brothers and 2 sisters younger than he. One sister was older but the rest were younger and he came back and lived with his parents and married my mother in 1924 not long after my grandmother died. It was an extended family living in that big house when I was born and weighed 2 pounds. Of course during the Depression, my grandfather lost his shirt. He had speculated in the stock market. He had raised many heads of hogs for market and they died of Cholera. His country store burned and it was just one misfortune after the other. So, we sold the big house and moved to a small house where he died. And then in 1936, my parents, we moved to High Point, North Carolina, to be near my mother's family. Mother was 1 of 12 children and she had 6 brothers and 5 sisters. Her brothers were all in the furniture business. So we moved to High Point and daddy went into the furniture business not with his brothersin-law but with another furniture company there. I had 1 sister 3 years older than I, Carol. Mother tells me this tale. I don't remember it but mother would get furious with my sister because when she was 3, she would hold the doors open in that big house to let in her imaginary playmates. Mildred Opal May and – No, it was Jack Opal May and Mildred. They were her imaginary playmates and my sister would hold the doors open and cool off the house when they were trying to keep me on warm pillows. I forgave her. (laughing) We lived in High Point. That's where I went to elementary school. Then, daddy was given a store of his own in Ashboro, North Carolina, in 1941 and we moved there. 0.05.16.9 AO: Ashboro is RA: Ashboro is 25 miles south of Greensboro on 220. Its right at the breaking point of Piedmont, North Carolina, and the sand hills. The north side of town is rolling hills, the south side is sand. But its in the geographical center of North Carolina. Great big zoo there now. Everybody knows about the zoo. 1 �AO: High Point is RA: High Point is in Gilford County close to Greensboro. You can't tell where one starts and the other begins, stops. That High Point/Greensboro triad area is heavily populated now. AO: Describe your home life. For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening? Do you remember when you got a telephone? RA: Oh yes. I remember listening to President Roosevelt's Fireside Chats with my grandfather. He listened to the radio faithfully and I did too of course as a child. In the little house, we lived in the little house. My grandfather also had a cotton gin too and of course the bottom dropped out of the cotton market. One interesting thing my mother did that I remember well when I was 5 or so. Mother having taught school was a certified teacher and so many young men in the neighborhood had to quit school to go home and help parents with crops or work or whatever. The cotton gin office was out beside our house and it had a blackboard and my mother scrounged around and got desks and equipped a classroom in the cotton gin office and taught high school boys who had had to quit school in the evening after working hours. So, mother, was an accredited teacher so the boys got their diplomas and so forth. But mother did that for 2 or 3 years when I was 4 or 5 or in that age and I remember sitting on the steps of the cotton gin office listening to my mother teach. She was remarkable to have done that because she AO: __________ (??) RA: Yeah and she was an excellent teacher. She went back to college after my sister and I finished college and got her degree and re-certified her teaching credentials and taught from the time she was about 48 until she was 60. AO: What college? RA: Woman's College of the University of North Carolina, WCUNC in Greensboro. AO: Is that the same school that you and your sister attended? RA: My sister went to WCUNC and I went to Greensboro College which is a private Methodistaffiliated girls school there in Greensboro also. I had been accepted to both colleges but when it came time to go, they didn't have room for me at WC. Of course Greensboro College was more expensive and we were concerned about that. If I remember, I never did know, but I think I got a little financial help to go to Greensboro College. I wanted to go there because 4 generations of my father's family, women, had graduated from Greensboro College. My father's great-uncle had given 'em the money to build a dormitory there which was named for him. Fitzgerald Hall was the senior dormitory and my father was Joe Fitzgerald Raper. He was named for his uncle who the family respected highly. So Greensboro College is really where I wanted to go and I was very fortunate to get to go there. AO: That's wonderful. What career did you choose after graduating? 0.09.53.0 RA: Well, I majored in Religious Education and my first job out of college was as a director of Religious Education at a Methodist Church in North Wilksboro, North Carolina. And I worked there for a couple of years but my sister had finished WC in Business and was in Washington and doing extremely well. She was with a large real estate firm, secretary to the president. She ended up a partner in it eventually. She knew I was unhappy in North Wilksboro. For one, I wasn't making enough money to live on and we had a minister at that time – Of course, Methodist churches trade ministers every 4 years and the man that hired me, I was very happy with but the fellow that followed him, created a lot of problems not just with me but with the church and the county because he came into Wilkes County which was sort of the bootleg capital of North Carolina as is Franklin County, Virginia. And he came in and his goal and ambition was to de-alcohol Wilkes County and he stepped on many toes. So I was unhappy. My sister called and said her office needed a cashier person, general office person and she knew I could do the work, would I like to come live with her and work with her which I did and thoroughly enjoyed working in Washington. It was a great time in the early 50s to live 2 �and work in Washington. I met a lot of interesting people. AO: I'm sure. RA: Most interesting, the company we worked for managed property for out of town owners of large apartments complexes and this sort of thing. One of the – There were various multi-millionaire people whose property we managed and they were in and out of our office from time to time. One of 'em was Colonel Henry Toolman and he was from Ohio, Dayton, Ohio. He was an attorney in Dayton. We managed his property and of course everybody deferred to Colonel Toolman because he was quite a distinguished gentleman way up in his early 80s at that time and this was in the early 50s. Recently, I read a biography of the Wright Brothers and was amazed to learn that their patent attorney from the time they were young men was Colonel Henry Toolman. AO: Wow. RA: So, I mean, all of this hit me. Well, I knew the Wright Brothers patent attorney. I met a lot of – Also, one of the partners in the firm, Miles Montgomery was a graduate of the University of Florida and their law school. He was a fraternity brother of John Ringling North who owned Ringling Brothers Circus. So when the circus came to town, Mr. North came to see us and gave us all circus tickets. So, I also was very active in a Methodist church there and sang in their choir and sang with a group that performed in various official functions in Washington. Things like the dedication of the Carter Barron Amphitheater. President Truman was the speaker. Our group sang at that dedication. I met a lot of interesting people and loved living in Washington. AO: How long did you live in Washington? RA: I was there about 2 ½ years until I met my husband. AO: What kind of activities did you participate in as a child? Did you participate in any particular activities, things that you enjoyed? RA: The thing I did most was sing. From the time I was in elementary, not elementary school, but junior high level. I was active in a children's choir and then I studied voice with our choir director and the thing I did most that I enjoyed was studying music and singing. I took some piano from my aunt who taught piano but I was never – I wasn't happy doing the scales. (laughing) I wanted to play songs. I didn't want to do scales. But the thing I enjoyed most was the music and singing. 0.15.11.2 AO: Did you and your family sit on the porch in the evenings? RA: Yes, in a way. We didn't really have a porch on all of our houses but my grandparents, my mother's family, had a large front porch and we would sit on that porch on weekends and Sunday afternoons and make ice cream and eat watermelons and cantaloupes and various family members would come by and did a lot of that. AO: Because of the genealogist in me, what was your mother's family name? RA: Holton. My mother was Esther Ruth Holton. Her father was James Edgar Holton. Incidentally, I've been into the genealogy thing too. My husband was from Botetourt County and he and I put together a genealogy or history of 45 Botetourt County families which has been published in 1977 and is now in its 2nd printing. We also researched several other Botetourt County and area families which are available from me. Yes, I've been – My husband was a genealogy buff and he grew up in Botetourt County. His father was the County Treasurer and his grandfather was County Treasurer and his Uncle was County Treasurer. AO: A family of County Treasurers. RA: He grew up in the courthouse in Botetourt and of course knew everybody down there and was keenly interested in people and their histories and he did a lot of the research and I did most of the grunt work, typed it and put it together. AO: Right. That is truly wonderful. RA: Oh, incidentally, you asked about my mother's family. My grandfather's aunt was the first woman 3 �lawyer in the South, Tobiatha Holton and she's been fairly heavily documented. AO: That's wonderful. RA: She lived in Jamestown and rode horseback to Greensboro to study Law in the 1960s. AO: That's fantastic. What family stories were passed down from one generation to another? For instance, did your family have stories or memories about the Civil War? Did they have a family recipe that's been passed down through the generations? RA: Yep. Some of both. AO: Great. RA: My father's family recipe that's been passed down from generation to generation is for persimmon pudding. I don't know the recipe by heart but its a mixture of persimmon pudding and sugar and butter and eggs and various spices and my mother made it at every family reunion and everybody expected that. And I think she learned it from the Raper family. On my father's side of the family, my greatgrandfather – Both of my great-grandfathers were in the Civil War. My father's grandfather, Elisha Raper fought in the Civil War and was a prisoner at a Northern prison camp near Norfolk and he was released and walked from Norfolk back to North Carolina to his home between Winston-Salem and Lexington carrying his rifle and carrying a little chest with his – He had been secretary of his college society before he went in the war and he came back carrying his little chest and his rifle. His rifle I have now. My father being the oldest son, it had passed from one oldest son to the other and daddy had no sons so he gave it to me for my oldest son. So, I have it. And then my grandmother's father on my father's side was Captain John Miller who fought, who was the commander of the 22nd North Carolina infantry. I guess it was foot soldiers and he surrendered with Lee at Appomattox. Yeah, I've got all that documented. I understand – I was told that my grandfather Raper was treated fairly well in the Northern Prison in Norfolk because one of the guards there had been a drummer that had sold things to his father at their store. So he knew him. 0.20.48.3 AO: OK. RA: He had some history with this particular guard in the Confederate prison so he seemed to fair better than many of 'em. AO: It always pays to know somebody. RA: It always helps to know somebody. Absolutely. AO: What is your fondest childhood memory? For example, a favorite holiday event, a favorite family vacation or a favorite gift that you received? RA: Hmmm. I don't know. AO: Whatever pops in your head about having a really great time that you enjoyed. RA: I don't know. We used to hike over to High Point City Lake and go swimming with 10 or 15 buddies and we lived about 2 miles from the lake and we'd hike over to the swimming pool. This is when I was in the 7th, 8th grades, 6th, and swim all afternoon. Then come home. For a while, we lived in a log house that my uncles had built as a hunting lodge on my grandfather's property and it overlooked Deep River in Gilford County. This was after we moved from Lynnwood. Deep River was at the bottom of our hill so there was a swimming hole right near there and so we would play in the swimming hole. I remember – climb trees. I was a tomboy. AO: I understand that. RA: Played a lot of Monopoly. Rode a lot of bicycles. Fell off a few ponies. (laughing) You know. AO: What chores did you have to do around the house or the neighborhood? RA: My sister and I ended up doing a little bit of everything. Mother began working when I was in the 4th or 5th grade. My sister of course being older – We frequently came home from school and fixed the evening meal, learned to cook doing it. Did X amount of housework. We just grew up. Mother taught us to do those things. When we lived in Ashboro, we lived near the peach orchards and daddy would 4 �take his furniture company truck down to the peach orchards and bring back a truck full of bushels of peaches which was for us and the neighbors. We didn't use 'em all of course. Peeled many peaches to get ready to can peaches. I remember peeling and peeling peaches. Had a close friend that lived next door, Peggy Mitchell, who is still a good friend by the way some 60 years later. She was exactly my age. When we moved there, I was really fortunate to have such a nice friend right next door and we did all kinds of things from sneaking cigarettes to (laughing) you name it. AO: Growing up things. Now you've told me you've had several houses and moved to several different places. Did you ever have a garden? RA: Oh yeah. We had a garden. I lived in Lynnwood first and then High Point area and we had gardens at both places. That's where I lived with my family and then after that, after I went to college, I lived in Washington and then here. So as we were growing up, we always had gardens, daddy had gardens. 0.24.58.6 AO: We've already talked about your school life and that you completed college. And your mother and father were both college graduates. Your mother taught school. Your father worked for a furniture company. RA: My father worked for Rose Furniture Company which was a large retail chain similar to Grand Piano here. It was Rose Furniture Company out of High Point. It was owned by men, brothers, the Kester brothers and it was Kester Brothers Corporation acting as Rose Furniture Company. When daddy had been with 'em a couple of years, they opened a store. Their home base was High Point and they opened a store in Ashboro and just turned it over to daddy to run which he operated – did his own buying, did everything. So daddy was in the retail furniture business but my mother had 5 brothers who also had 5 furniture stores between 'em and another of my mother's brothers had a carpet and flooring company and they installed carpet and flooring. I sort of grew up in and around the retail furniture trade. AO: So when you married, what year was that? RA: I married in 1953. AO: Did you marry in Washington or in North Carolina? RA: Neither place. (laughing) That's an interesting story. (laughing) I lived with my sister in Washington and we had a cousin who taught school in Charlottesville and she invited us to Charlottesville for a football game. So, we drove down to Charlottesville and she got us dates with her friends and we all went to the football game and had a good time and went back home. But, my cousin was dating a fellow named Bill Austin and I was dating a fellow named Al Baxter. My sister dated a fellow named Charlie Fox Graham from Wytheville. We went back to Washington and that was the end of that. We had had a good time. Al Baxter who I dated, finished UVA and came to Washington, went into the Army and was stationed at the Pentagon. I lived not far from the Pentagon. From time to time, he'd call and we'd go out to dinner or do something but we were just friends. Then in 195? - That was '51 and then a year or so later, I got a call from Bill Austin. He was in Washington. He had brought his mother up there. She had cancer and was coming up for some cancer treatment and he was staying with Al and asked Al what had happened to me. Al said, “Well, she's still here. I see her from time to time.”. Bill called me and wanted my sister and me to come over to Georgetown to a party some of them were having and of course, you went to parties if you were invited. So we went and a day or so – the next day, I presumed I was with Al and then the next day Bill called and said, no, he wanted to go with me, date me. So he came over and had dinner with us or something and I saw him a couple of times on weekends while he was in Washington with his mother. And then he went on back to Natural Bridge. His mother owned a motor court at Natural Bridge which he wasn't able to operate it and he was operating it for her during the summers, you know, spring and summer. It was a seasonal thing. It wasn't open in the winter. So, he was going to school in the winter and operating that for his mother in 5 �the summer. So, he asked us down to – He kept calling and writing and we kept in touch and then he asked my sister and me when we went on vacation to come back to Natural Bridge and visit. Well, I had never been through this area so we wanted to come so we did. And spent 4 days with him and his mother and his sister at the motor court and that was in August and then in – He kept writing and calling and then in September, he called. My sister and I had been to the beach visiting friends and came back late on Sunday night and he called me at 1:00 in the morning and wanted me immediately to come to Charlottesville. He had to see me. And I said, “No, I can't. I've got to go to work in the morning” and so forth. So anyway, I told him I would come down in 2 weeks. I'd come the weekend of the 12th of October and I'd just come to take the bus down to Natural Bridge. The motel was on old 11 and the bus went right by it which I did. And we got to Natural Bridge and there were no lights on at the Motor Court. The bus driver didn't know whether to let me off or not and I was hesitant. But he tooted his horn and finally Bill came out and Bill's car was there. So, I got off the bus. I said, “Bill, what's happened to the lights?”. Well I found out then he was mortally afeared of electricity and he said, “I think we've blown a fuse. I'm gonna have to call an electrician.”. And I said, “Well do you have a fuse?”. He said, “Well, I think I've got some fuses here.”. I said, “Well, give me a fuse.”. He held the flashlight and I changed the fuse and lights came on and he asked me to marry him that night. (both laughing heartily) That was on Friday night and I told him I would because I realized in August when my sister and I were there that he was more than a passing fancy. I hadn't told her. Anyway, that was Friday night. Saturday we discussed – Saturday, I've forgotten what we did but we stayed up 2 nights in a row talking, getting acquainted, you know, finally. And then on Sunday, I said, Bill said, “Well, I'll take you back to Charlottesville and you can just catch the train from Charlottesville back to Washington and save you some time and give us a little more time together.”. So we had discussed when we would get married and we had probably settled on Thanksgiving or Christmas or something like that. A small wedding somewhere because his mother was terminally ill by that time. So, anyway, on Sunday, he took me back to Charlottesville and took me to see his landlady, Miss Everett Rinker who was a good friend and we told her we were planning to get married. “Oh, well you can get married in Charlottesville tomorrow.”. She got on the phone and she called the judge and she called the minister and she made arrangements for us to get blood tests at the hospital and we got married the next day in Charlottesville. 0.32.52.5 AO: That was quick. RA: And I called and invited my parents and my sister who hit the ceiling, swore I had lost my mind. Anyway, my mother, I had – She knew. I had told mother that he was just a passing fancy. Anyway, my parents came and we called various friends in Charlottesville, Bill's uncle and aunt in Springfield and we had a nice small church wedding in Charlottesville that Monday afternoon. AO: That's wonderful. RA: But the worst thing was after our wedding, everybody said, “Well we're going over to the Thomas Jefferson Inn for dinner.”. We thought, how nice, they're going to dinner together. So we got in the car and left and they had arranged this lovely cake and the whole thing for us to surprise us. AO: And you didn't show up. RA: And we didn't know it. So they had the after-party, after-wedding reception with no bride and groom. And I'm still embarrassed about that but they should've told us. AO: That's what happens when you have a surprise. RA: Absolutely. It worked out well. We were married 37 ½ years. AO: That was wonderful. That was absolutely wonderful. So, how did you get from Washington with him in Buena Vista to Botetourt? RA: Well, his mother had sold their home in Botetourt County and moved and bought a home on Grandin Road in Roanoke to be near her doctors when she was so ill. Bill had a sister who was 14 at 6 �that time, a younger sister, and she was here with her mother living in Roanoke. After we were married, we came back to Natural Bridge and closed up the motor court that fall and came to Roanoke and lived with her and looked after her until she died the following February. At that point, we were in Roanoke, and had not much choice but to stay in Roanoke. First, Bill really wanted to go live in Charlottesville but it was not practical at that point because his sister lived with us and we were her responsible parties and that sort of thing. 0.35.34.0 AO: So you lived on Grandin Court. RA: Well, we lived on Grandin Road. We lived in a house that they tore down to make the parking lot for Christ Lutheran Church. We lived right next to the Greenstone Church on Grandin Road and the church bought that house. We sold it to someone else to settle Bill's mother's estate and then whoever bought it from us sold it to the church and they made a parking lot out of it. AO: So where did you move to from Grandin Road? RA: We bought a home on Yellow Mountain Road just – Actually its the first house that faces Yellow Mountain Road after you turned left off of Jefferson Street. Its just up the hill from Jefferson Street and we lived there 33 years until my husband's health began to go bad and our children were grown and educated and we no longer needed 9 rooms and 3 lots on the side of Mill Mountain so we sold it and bought a condominium where I live now. AO: That sounds like a very interesting life. RA: It has been. AO: And very fulfilling, that's the word I'm looking for. RA: Mm mm. I'd like to talk a little bit about our business. AO: Sure. RA: Is that a question? AO: No. RA: OK. (laughing) AO: But that's OK. RA: When we came to Roanoke after Bill's mother died, we began looking for work and, of course, Bill had enough hours for a Master's but no degree and my degree was in Religion which is sort of nebulous but we were both very people-oriented people and we began looking for work. In 1952 or 3, I had been making far more in Washington than anybody was paying a woman in Roanoke and I was told that there was no point in applying for the Norfolk Western because they don't hire married women at that point and did not. It was several years before they got over that. My husband – I went to work for what was the Mountain Trust Bank and discovered 3 weeks after I went there that I was pregnant and didn't know it. At that point, pregnant women weren't kept in the job work market anyway. But I kept that hidden until September. We had such a difficult, had a hard time finding work that we were satisfied with. So, we had thought about the possibility of opening a private employment agency to help people find jobs, to act as a go-between. There was one employment agency here then, a one-man operation and he did very well but he didn't tell you any – Bill was working through him to get a job and he would say, “Well, go and see John Doe at such and such a company. He's looking for a salesman.”. That's all he would tell him. He knew nothing about the company. He knew nothing about what was required. This mad just didn't take time to tell you anything. He'd just send you in some direction, helter skelter. So that was something that we had thought we could do. So, I signed a teaching contract in Roanoke County to begin teaching because the county was in dire need of teachers right after – during the early 50s. I signed the contract in May and in June, Bill went – Another fellow had opened up an employment agency and Bill decided he would go see him. Well he went to see him and talk to him and found his name was George Strump (??) and he had a child who was deaf and needed to go to a school for the deaf. His wife's uncle was Richard Poff, you know? 7 �0.40.09.8 AO: Mm mm. RA: And Poff was trying to get him hooked up with Colonial Williamsburg somewhere because there was a school for the deaf there. So we bought his agency and took it over in that summer. But, I had already signed a contract to teach. So, I went to Dr. Horn, who was superintendent of the county schools and told him that we had bought a business that I was interested in but that I didn't know whether I would need to teach to survive or what. But I would begin the school year or not, up to him, but I wanted to warn him that if the business developed more than I needed teaching, then I might resign in the middle of the year and I didn't want to – I wanted to warn him of that possibility, which I did. He said, “Well, start the year.”. Thank heavens we had had that conversation because I had 42 7th graders all day, every subject in one of the county schools and it was the most horrific experience. I realized I can deal with children 1 or 2 at a time but en mass – and all of these children had gone to school together for 6 years and each knew what made the other giggle. They constantly – It was a constant gang war, not war literally, you know, but it was very, very difficult. I think I had AO: 42 students, that's a lot. RA: See all these kids were war babies. When the first half of the year ended, I resigned and went into our business full time which was very interesting which we thoroughly enjoyed. It was sort of Russian Roulette every day. We managed to survive for 33 years and ended up – We made a lot of contacts, placed a lot of people in jobs. Some succeeded very well and it was always gratifying to see them succeed and do well. AO: What was the name of your business? RA: It was Services Unlimited Employment Agency. AO: Where were you located? RA: We were located over Paul's Restaurant on Franklin Road. If you know where Paul's is. AO: Yes. RA: We were upstairs, directly over Paul's. Right across from the National Business College. Of course, we were in that business through the years when the American Viscos closed there were a lot of people looking for work. We ended up getting a lot of people that were laid off from the American Viscos jobs, doing whatever. That was a difficult. AO: It was a loss. RA: That's right and a lot of those people had no skills that were adaptable to anything else. Of course we were also in that business during the integration period and it was very gratifying to us to work with black applicants who had improved/gotten skills that they needed and wanted to use. It was very gratifying to help them get into good jobs and we did a lot of that. AO: Right. RA: And so we thoroughly enjoyed it and did well with it for a number of years but it was – By the time we had been in it 33 years, my husband's health was not good and I was pretty much operating it by myself and he was doing the genealogical research he did. And then so many agencies went into temporary placements which was not interesting to us. We just did not want the liability that you get into with a temporary agency because a temporary agency has to handle the payroll for these people they place in jobs to be reimbursed later. They have to carry heavy liability insurance and that sort of thing. At that point, our children were educated. The house was paid for. Bill was not well and I figured I could find something else to do. So we closed it up in 1989. But it was a very interesting career and it was very rewarding in a lot of ways. 0.45.19.1 AO: I'm sure it was. The number of people with various educational levels, skill levels. That would've been very rewarding. RA: It was very interesting. I think about a lot of the people and I sort of followed their careers. The 8 �president of a local bank down the road a ways. We got into banking when he first got out of college. This sort of thing and that's very gratifying. AO: That's great. I never thought about anything like that. You brought up the – After Civil Rights and the effect it had on your business. Do you feel that it had any effect on your personal life? RA: The Civil Rights thing? AO: Mm mm. RA: Um, no, because my family – Now Aunt Sally Hayden that kept me alive when I was so young, we've always had black friends and good friends and I had people that kept my children that I'm very close to even yet. So I've always had a lot of black friends. The Civil Rights thing, I think they were due everything plus. You know? AO: Mm mm. RA: I never had any – My husband was a little bit – My family was very broad-minded along those lines. My husband wasn't until he got to know me and I fixed him. (laughing) I changed his attitudes fast because we were dealing with – He was old Harry Byrd Virginia politics kind of people originally but I got him out of that. I was a little more broad minded from North Carolina. AO: Alright. There was a difference. You made a difference. Did your husband serve in the military? RA: No. He was called up to service during World War II but didn't pass the physical every time. He did not pass the physical. He had a congenital heart defect that could not be corrected and he lived a perfectly normal life until he developed heart problems when he was about 60 and he lived 5 years after that. AO: Is there anything else that we did not cover that you would like to share with us? RA: I think I pretty much covered it all. (laughing) I can't think of anything. Oh, interestingly, after we closed our business, I worked for a temporary agency, just part-time some because I really needed to work. About the time my husband died, my mother had moved here and I was looking after her. She was in Friendship Manor. She lived in Roanoke for 17 years and was in Friendship Manor for 8 of those. So I had her and my husband ill at the same time. Anyway, I did some temporary assignments for various companies and ended up with Carilion working in their physicians billing division doing insurance research. I worked for them 12 years from the time I was 60 until I was 72 or 73. I thoroughly enjoyed working for Carilion and it was a most interesting job. It wasn't all interesting but what I did was interesting to me because, for instance, if a patient was transported by Lifeguard 10 from an auto accident to Roanoke Memorial, I would get the charge and would have to figure out and research who should be billed. Find out who the patient was, trace 'em down, get insurance coverage and this sort of thing. I did that type of insurance research for the physicians billing division for Carilion and thoroughly enjoyed it. They were very good to me. I was very thankful to have the job because I needed the money. 0.50.33.3 AO: Oh yeah. RA: It was a very interesting job. I worked for them until I was 72. My sister died in 2002 and she had a considerable estate and she had never married and had no children or anything and I was her sole beneficiary. I could afford to quit finally at 72, I can afford to quit working. (laughing) AO: Anytime you have that kind of gift, that's perfect. RA: But then she had developed an early senile dementia and I had looked after her for 5 years so I felt like I had earned it. I had to move her from her beach place in Delaware to a condo in Greensboro and she wanted to be there and near others in our family. I had taken over her care and responsibility for her for 5 years. And, of course, she would've had to have paid through the nose for nursing homes and so forth. So there wasn't all that much left. AO: Any is a blessing. RA: But it did enable me to retire and not be 9 �AO: Have more freedom. RA: Have more freedom. Mm mm. AO: That's a wonderful life story. That really is. And you did a lot of nursing. RA: Yeah, I did a lot of care-taking of people. A lot of care-taking. AO: Its interesting that you never drifted toward that career. RA: (laughing) Ha! That's a funny tale. I was a rather rambunctious teenager kind of child and my mother and father when I was getting ready to finish high school. They said, “Well, what do you think Becky should do?”. Mother said, “Well she could be a nurse.”. And daddy said, “Oh no!! She couldn't be a nurse. She'd jerk those patients. She'd kill 'em before it's over with.”. (laughing heartily) AO: You proved 'em wrong. RA: Well, I didn't actually have the nursing to do, I had the looking after their affairs to do AO: Oh OK. You didn't do hands on. You were the administrator. RA: I was the administrator. I wasn't the hands on nurse. I am not a good hands on nurse. (both laughing) My children managed to survive me but mostly because they were strong boys. (laughing) AO: That's wonderful. Are they here? RA: Well, one of my sons is here, the youngest. He's married and has 2 little children and he's in human resource development for Carilion. He's in the corporate offices of Carilion as a human resources person. My middle son is currently, his family is living in Florida but he has been the – Both of those boys went to VPI and got their Master's at Tech. My middle son has been the primary city planner for the toll road system for the state of Florida but he has left them and has taken a job with a large engineering firm out of New Haven Connecticut as their senior project manager for toll road systems. But he works out of Fairfax but he covers the Eastern Seaboard. He's in the process of moving from Florida to Fairfax but he's got to sell the house in Florida first. AO: He'll be closer to you. RA: My oldest son is in Winston-Salem. His wife teaches school and he is a commercial sales rep for Atlas Van Lines. He sells large, commercial moves. He went to William and Mary and VCU. But my other 2 boys went to Tech. AO: That's wonderful. RA: We got 'em educated. AO: Mm mm. I'm jealous. I have 2 daughters and I've got them both in college but I couldn't get either one of them to graduate. But I have not given up. RA: Oh dear. Don't give up. Don't give up. Its never too late. AO: That's right. I didn't graduate until I was 48 so we're just late bloomers I've decided. RA: Well that's good. Maybe they took after their mother. AO: I hope so. RA: I hope so. AO: I want to thank you so much for participating. RA: Well, I was glad to. AO: And it was a wonderful life story that you've given us. It will be great on the shelves for the children and whoever chooses to listen. RA: Well, how will this be used? AO: It will be – I'm gonna turn this off now. Thank you again for participating. RA: I enjoyed it. 10 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2656/Austin_Rebecca_27_March_2007.JPG 614759a30dc8a4fe98553780c448bd09 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2656/AustinRebecca_[compressed].mp3 dfb9513e824c4ba7f89ea734ccfcd905 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Rebecca Raper Austin Subject The topic of the resource South Roanoke Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Rebecca Raper Austin Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 23 March 2007 Location: Main Library Total Duration: 55:47 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23 March 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rebecca R. Austin; Arleen Ollie; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AustinRebecca https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2655/TinsleyCarl_[compressed].mp3 2b08cc198318700eeac9e185f8488108 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2655/TinsleyCarl.pdf 6eec9771bf2d03080355ef5139dd136f PDF Text Text Interviewee: Carl Tinsley Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Transcriber: Andrew Sterling KT: This is Reverend Carl Tinsley. It is March 22, 2007. We are at his home at 2647 Springhill Drive in the kitchen and we're going to begin the interview now. Would you introduce yourself? CT: I am Reverend Carl T. Tinsley, 2647 Springhill Drive, Roanoke, Virginia, the place where I've lived for 50 years almost – forty-some years. KT: First, we're going to start with some background questions. What's your date of birth? CT: I was born 6-11-33. Times was hard then. (chuckling) KT: And where were you born? CT: I was actually born in Franklin County in a place called Sontag, Virginia. A little community. KT: Sontag? S-u-n CT: t-a-g Sontag. KT: Did you live there for your childhood? CT: No. I was 6 months old when my father moved to West Virginia and he was a coal miner and went to work in the coal mines. So, we lived in West Virginia for 7 years. My mother died when I was 7 years old. So, I – Actually, my father came back to his parent's house. It was 3 in my family, my sister, my brother and myself. My grandmother on my daddy's side and grandfather took us in and my father stayed in West Virginia and worked in the coal mine. So, we left West Virginia where we had electric lights, wonderful schools, theaters, company stores, all you could ever ask for and even more than. And then when we came to Virginia, we lived in a log cabin house with a kitchen built off to one side and you couldn't hear nothing but the whippoorwills and the frogs and all that stuff in the evening. They didn't have electric lights neither. Everything was lamp – use lamps. And you couldn't tell whether if there was a light on until you got in the room from the outside. (chuckling) KT: Indoor plumbing? CT: No! My Lord. (laughing) We had more than that. We had an outhouse with two seats. (laughing) Two people could go sit down. KT: So 2 bathrooms in your house. CT: Yes. (chuckling) KT: Where was that in Virginia? CT: That was in Snow Creek. When you leave Rocky Mount going down 220, turn off on 619. It goes all the way around and comes back into Montvale. But some little communities were down the road like Sontag which is on the far side of Chester Creek and after you cross over the creek, you're into what is called the Snow Creek section. So, my father's people lived in Snow Creek. My mother's father and mother lived in Sontag. I was born in a log cabin identical to Booker T. Washington's only it had a wooden floor. (chuckling) KT: Really? Are any of those log cabins still standing? CT: No. That was on my mother's father's side. He was a blacksmith. I'll never forget. The cabin was when I was 3 or 4 years old, we used to go to Virginia to visit. We used to go down there to look at it and daddy told me they had to hang me from the rafters when I was a baby to keeps the rats and snakes from getting in. KT: So you lived there as a child. Which school did you go to? CT: We had an elementary school called Brown School. It was in the Sontag area and right after you cross Chester Creek, it was probably about another ¼ to ½ mile up on the side of a hill. We had a bus, one bus that used to run, come all the way over to right above our house and turn around. And see, we lived down in the hollow so we walked up the mountain to try to catch the bus. Sometimes, we'd miss it and we had to walk to school – about 3 miles. You better not go back home. (chuckling) 1 �KT: Its better just to keep on walking. CT: Keep on walking and walk to school. And a lot of times in the evening, we'd have to wait for the bus to come down from Rocky Mount 'cause it dropped off the children that were going to high school, Franklin County Training School. They would be dropped off and then they'd pick us up. A lot of times, we'd just walk home. Especially in pretty weather rather than wait on the bus. It was quite a life. At Brown School, we had one teacher when I was going. It was Miss Chappie Goode (??) bless her heart. She taught from 1st to 7th grade. She taught all of us and I wonder sometimes how she did that. But when I left West Virginia, I was in the 2nd grade I think - 2nd or 3rd grade - 2nd grade I believe. I just couldn't get math. Math was just a “blaugh”. She was a pretty large person but she squeezed in beside my seat and says, “Hun, let me show you how to do this.”. And you know, from that day on, I went to the head of the class when it came to math, doing math. It was like somebody opened a window for me. 0.05.45.9 KT: She helped you. CT: Yeah, she helped me and I always gave her credit for that. She was a wonderful person. Taught all of her life, a dedicated teacher. One that we should hold in high esteem. She did so much for the community. KT: You said that was to 7th grade that you had her? CT: Yeah, she taught to the 7th grade. See, we left – I think I was in the 4th grade maybe – 2 years 6th grade when my father decided to housekeep again, so he came and got us and we went back to West Virginia. KT: And where in West Virginia? 0.06.27.2 CT: The other side of Beckley, a place called Winding Gulf. It was a coal camp and my father had a house. We lived there until 1947, I believe – '46 or '47. Then we moved back to Virginia, back with my grandparents and I went to high school in Franklin County. At that time, Franklin County only had 11 grades and I was, from going from one school to another, I had gotten 1 or 2 grades behind so I was smart but being poor, not having much – When I was with my grandfather, we had to work. We had to work on the farm. My brother and I, if we never cut another stick of wood or hoe another stalk of corn or tobacco – we've done our share as youngsters. I was 13 years old when I went and got my first job. I worked for the saw mill. He was very good to me, to all of the younguns – young black kids in that area. My cousin and myself, we went to work for him. We walked 3 or 4 miles to work, work all day and walk back in the evening, sometimes we'd catch a ride on a truck. It was just one of those things. I was, at 12 years old, I was 6'2”. I was so skinny. (laughing) I wasn't nothing but arms and legs. But I was strong from working on the farm and cutting trees and doing all that work. I was a strong little fella. When I turned, let me see, I think I was in school, I turned 16, yeah, at the end of the year I turned 16 and came to Roanoke with my step-uncles. At that time, my father had married again and my step-uncles, we were like brothers. It wasn't too much difference between our age. Two of 'em were brick masons. They used to work during the winter, laying brick, I mean the summer. But when the winters were bad, they worked at Lewis-Gayle Hospital. They knew people. I came over when I was 16 and got a job. I used to wax and polish those brass doors on Luck Avenue, on 2nd Street actually. And the post office was right across the street. So, I'd pick up the mail for the hospital. And what happened, I had planned to go back to school but when you start working and making a little money and I thought, “Well, I can catch up. I'll wait a month or two.”. Kinda just kept putting things off. In 1949, it was. And then in 1950, I was still working there. And the Korean War broke out. Well my step-uncle joined the Navy. Of course, they would've drafted him anyhow. So, I wanted to go when I was 16. They had a recruiting station at the post office. So, the guys used to say, “Hey” by me being 6'2”, “Come on. Why don't you join the Navy?”. And I said, “I don't know. I think I'm too young I 2 �think.”. He said, “Oh”. I said, “I'm just 16.”. He said, “When will you be 17?”. I said, “June.”. He said, “I'll tell you what. If you pass the test, we'll sign you up and when you turn 17 and you get permission from your father, you can go to training.”. So, I did. I took the test and I passed it. And he said, “My God! Some of the college kids didn't pass this test. And you passed it.”. (laughing) Anyhow, we set a date for August. That was after I turned 17 in June and I would leave in August. That's how it happened. I left Roanoke and went to train. I went to Richmond where I was sworn in, 9 white guys and 1 black and that was me. This was still during segregation time. Training was still segregated. But when we were sworn in, the guy gave the papers to another guy that says, “Wherever he go, you all go.”. (chuckling) He got your meal ticket and everything. So, I'm on the train. I was so afraid, waiting for the man to come and say, “You can't eat here. You can't - “. But they allowed us to sit together to eat. And when I got to Chicago, I went to Great Lakes, Illinois. When I got to Chicago, I was still thinking we were in the South and then it dawned on me, “Hey, I'm in the North now.”. (laughing) 0.11.26.9 KT: Was it a little different? CT: Yeah. It really was. I had never seen such wide streets in my life. You know, being a country boy and never been to a big city other than Roanoke and Beckley. Man oh man, that was a thrill. But in Great Lakes, Illinois, there were 3 blacks in my outfit. Out of 265 men there were only 3 blacks. And the fact that they hadn't been long integrated the Navy, where we could train with everybody else and do stripe for what we wanted to. So I had a 16 week training. 16 weeks, yeah. During that time, my grandmother died and my daddy didn't tell me 'cause they didn't want to break my training. I was so sorry when I found out. I cried like a baby all night. I had to cover my head up so the guys in the barracks couldn't see me crying. But I made it through training. One of the black guys didn't make it. It just – He didn't have the stamina to tell you the truth. And another guy from New York named ______. He and I. And after training, we went to Quonset Point, Rhode Island, Naval Air Station. During that time, you could pick whatever field you wanted to. So, I picked aviation. I wanted to be a pilot. I was attached to anti-submarine squadron 31 and we had about 22 planes, single-engine planes. And all we had to do was patrol the Atlantic coast and keep submarines away and this kind of thing. We had sophisticated gear that we used, SONAR. The receivers were dropped in the water and if we picked up a sub – We had those planes with RADAR. You can pick up a target 500 miles away. This big plane, the one with a big belly that you see, they call that the “Mother Hen”. Then once they picked up a signal, they would vector us. In other words, they'd send us to check it out. We were lighter and we could fly faster. And submarines had RADAR too and about 50 miles maybe they could pick us up. So they'll dive and we'd plot the time it takes us to get to the place of the dive and we'd start dropping SONAR balls (??) in the water in a whole circle. And its amazing. You can get a cruise on (??) a submarine “whoosh, whoosh”. You could even hear people talking. KT: Really? CT: Mm mm. KT: Its kinda like a cat and mouse game. CT: See, they had silence (??). Once they know we're onto them, the silence (??). If someone happened to drop a wrench or something else, “Cling, cling”, you could hear it. KT: Really? CT: We never ran into any enemy subs, we had our own subs training. And for 4 years, I was in this outfit. Three years straight - We went to Cuba and spent 3 months in Cuba. And we operated off the carrier and the base. The base was our home base at Quonset Point. I served on about 5 different aircraft carriers. KT: Now when you say the base, was that Guantanamo? CT: Quonset Point, Rhode Island. Quonset – Q-u-n, I forgot how to spell it. (chuckling) But it was a 3 �Naval Air Station. KT: OK. CT: And they had a lot of planes. That's when I found out – I thought that the Air Force had all the planes but the Navy has as many planes or more as the Air Force. 0.15.08.2 KT: Really? CT: Mm mm. Yes indeed. KT: So, how long were you in the service? CT: Almost 4 years. I went in in '50 and I came out in '54. I got out a few months early because my outfit was going on a Mediterranean cruise and my time would've been up in the middle of that cruise so they let me out early. KT: Now you had said something earlier about segregation and that it wasn't segregated when you went in. Did you ever encounter any hostility or any negativity while in the Navy? CT: Really not that much so in the Navy. We all went through training together and you had some guys in there who were real racist but they didn't bother me or others because I was the only one – There was one other black but I was the only one. So, we were good friends, especially all the white guys from the South. We stuck together. They used to follow me around. (chuckling) KT: How about in the community at large? CT: Now the community at large – Rhode Island is a small state. In town, some places you might go, you didn't really find that much because they wanted the money. But Boston was one of the worst racist states that ever walked on the face. KT: Really? CT: Yes, Lord. There were communities in Boston you didn't dare be caught in. You wouldn't make it out. People disappear up there. As a matter of fact, years later, after I had been out of the service and working with the NAACP, we had a state convention up there, a national. And people – The man got up there and said, “You all are welcome. You can go anywhere you want to.” And the people up there got up and told him, “No you can't. It is still just as racist now as it was back in the '30s and '20s.” KT: Really? CT: Yeah, because you've got the Italians, you've got different nationalities living there. And those people are very, very, very prejudiced. KT: Really? CT: Mm mm. I found that out the hard way. KT: Did you go into the wrong neighborhood at one time? CT: No. When you went in town and you went to where the bars were, where the girls were. (laughing) It was quite an experience to see people. And sometimes even in Rhode Island – Providence, that's where we were, Providence. - You'd go in there and you go into a small place and you could tell people didn't want to wait on you. They didn't have signs on the door saying “No Coloreds here, No black here”, but they showed it. I told my father when I came home on my first leave. I said, “Daddy, the people in the South will rise up and we'll live together and we'll be able to live in harmony among ourselves but it will never happen in the North.”. KT: Really? CT: Mm mm. Maryland was one of the most segregated states I ever came through. KT: Really? CT: Its not that way now. But during the time I was in the service, it was. KT: How about Roanoke? Sorry, I'm not giving you a chance to drink your coffee. CT: When I came to Roanoke, like I said, from the country, my first time coming to a city this size and being with people that you know and looked up, you knew it would help you make it. 'Cause one of the guys worked in the hospital, he and I roomed at the same house, Pete. We'd eat at the hospital so, 4 �we'd go across Henry Street, me and my friend, a guy my age named Quincy, Quinton and we'd shoot pool. Do different things. Go to the drug store and buy a Coke, old Brooks' store. At that time, I was a little younger, I didn't go to all of the KT: The other places? 0.19.30.9 CT: Clubs or bars. I did that after I came out the service – I did it before I went in the service. Now I felt good. When I used to leave downtown, once I got across Henry Street Bridge, I was home. I wasn't worried about anybody doing anything to me, people saying things to you or doing anything to you. I was in my own community where we had our restaurants and stores, pool halls, and shoe shine shops, you know, everything. And restaurants. It was always a relief when I got across that bridge. (chuckling) 'Cause downtown, I could go into Kress's and Woolworth's and buy a hot dog and I had to go outside to eat it. They would let you stand outside in the little cafes they had on the streets. You'd go in and they'd sell you something but you had to go outside. You couldn't eat inside or sit down. When I left Roanoke, it was still that way. When I got back, after the service, I went to Rocky Mount and I lived with my father and my stepmother for about a year and a half. I worked at Bassett. I got me a job making furniture. Hardest job in town. (laughing) The first job I had. This is the way it was believe me. On Monday morning, and every morning at the factory, there would be men waiting to be hired. You needed a job, you would just go and wait. If somebody didn't show up, they'd hire you and put you in their place. Now, you couldn't miss a day. You couldn't miss a day. Your supervisor really working with you on that. So when I went there on a Monday and the guy looked at me and he looked at my long arms and he says, “I've got a job.”. I said, “What is it?”. He said, “Rubbing Filler”. I said, “No, I don't think I want that.”. 'Cause everybody had warned me, “Don't take the filler of a job. That's the hardest job in the factory. Don't let 'em give you that job.”. So I had to go back home when I didn't get hired. So I came back Tuesday. The same guy was standing there saying, “Got the same job.”. So I looked at him and I said, “Anybody else doing that job?”. He said, “Yeah, Green ______ (??) been doing 16 years.”. I said, “Well, if he can do it, I can do it.”. So I went on to work. And what I did, rubbing filler - Down in the furniture factory – When you first start out in the lower end, its just rough lumber. They cut it and put it together. By the time it got upstairs where I worked, its a piece of furniture. And the guys are spraying filler on it – You fill the cracks and it dries and you have to rub it to get a smooth surface so they can put a varnish on it. Everything moves on a chain. In the morning, the guy pushes the button to start from the low end downstairs, about a block down and when it got up to where I am, _____. And the only break we got was when the chain broke or something happened and it'd stop. (laughing) And it would be so dusty in there, all you could see was just the round light. That filler dust. And I thought about this as just like working in a coal mine. I was doing that all day long. The next day, I got up to go to work, I was trying to – Daddy done fixed breakfast for us 'cause he worked in another place and I got my coffee and I had to do this. I couldn't even raise my arm. (laughing) KT: Major sore. CT: I told daddy, “I'm gonna have to quit. I can't even get my arms up to there.”. (laughing) But you know the funny thing, psychological, when they punch that button and that chain starts, we had to take this cloth and start _____ worked on that line and boy, I tell ya, at the end of a year, I looked deformed. My arms through here were so big. You know how Popeye's arms used to look? KT: Uh huh. CT: That's how my arms looked. I had a small body (laughing) great big arms. KT: So you managed to stay there a year and a half? CT: Yeah. I worked there. I quit there and went to American Furniture Factory in Montvale. I worked over there for a while. Then I came back and worked at the veneering plant. That's where I was working when I got married. Veneer is when they shave logs, you know, different logs to put over 5 �Poplar and Pine. You think you're getting Oak but you're getting really a veneered, real thin slice. And I worked in that veneering plant for right at a year. In fact, that's the only place they held my job for 6 weeks. KT: Really? CT: I told the guy, “I'm getting married this weekend and I'll be back next week.”. (laughing) KT: And they're still waiting on you huh? (laughing) 0.24.44.5 CT: The guy I worked with, Tommy Webb, told me, “Tinsley, you're the only man I know that the man held a job and wouldn't hire nobody for 6 weeks, hoping you'd come back.”. After we got married, we got married right on Rugby Boulevard, 1308 Rugby Boulevard. It was at my sister-in-law's house. We had a weekend honeymoon. The only hotel that was available for blacks was the Pine Oaks Inn up in Salem. And they had 6 rooms, one bathroom. (chuckling) So we spent the night there Saturday night and Sunday, we came back and went up to her mother's house. Her mother and father – Her father was a coal miner too but he quit mining for a while and he was living here. They lived up off of Wildwood Road. They had a big house up there so we lived with them for maybe 3 months. I got a job working at Shoney's Big Boy on Lee Highway. I was hired as a porter, a janitor, or porter, whatever you want to call it. They paid me $22 a week, 6 days a week and 9 hours a day. KT: Wow. CT: Wow, that's right. (laughing) And then I worked part-time at the hospital – Roanoke Memorial Hospital when they only had the one building. Then I got a job at the City as a cleaner or janitor and I worked there almost a year. In 1957, I got a job on the extra board at N&W. So I quit the City and I was working, making twice the money when I went to work for the railroad. Oh, that was good. Lord, we were in heaven then. (chuckling) Cost of living was cheap and everything and I was making twice the money at the railroad than I was making at the City. My salary at the City was $235 a month at that time. When I was working at the railroad, I was making over $400. KT: Wow. CT: Wow is right. And everything was going wonderful for 3 months and then we got cut off. KT: Oh. 0.27.00.6 CT: Laid off. They merged with the Virginia Railway and you gotta eliminate some jobs so, last hired – In fact I was working as an extra man anyhow but I got kicked to the street. So, I went back to Shoney's and worked for Shoney's Big Boy. I worked out in the community and did floors, washed floors and did windows for people. Any way I could make a dollar. And I got called back to Norfolk Southern, I was still on the extra board, so you might work one day a week or maybe one day and a half, depending if anybody didn't get laid off, you didn't get to work. So I went to work for Bluefield Hardware 'cause I was working at Norfolk Southern at night whenever they needed me and it used to be right beside H&C Coffee downtown. I drove the truck, delivered furniture and appliances on over, drove to West Virginia to Bluefield Hardware out there, bring stuff back and taking it out. And I'd work when I could at night at the railroad. It wasn't until about '59 I really began to dread the work. I quit Bluefields because it was too much on me really. I finally got a regular job at the railroad. I worked as a janitor and then I went in the mail room. The mail room was the only job, decent job, there for blacks at that time. You could wear a tie and a shirt. And we handled all the incoming mail and all the outgoing mail which was company mail and US mail. I worked as – there actually was somebody off from that work and finally when 2 of the guys retired so I got a job there. I finally ended up running the mail room and liked it 'cause I was selling real estate on the side. I had gotten my license to sell real estate at a real estate agency and I was selling real estate on the side. And the reason I did that was because I was trying to buy a house and I couldn't. The bank wouldn't lend you no money and you just couldn't get – and even thought I was making pretty good money and my wife was working, they said 6 �they couldn't depend on her. She was of child-bearing age so they wouldn't consider her salary at all. That went on for a while and one day, in the mail room, there were boxes all around where we had put the mail up for everybody, every department. So, I liked it because when I got my work caught up, I could go out and show a house and come on back when a train came in to be there to get the other mail. I made sure my work was done. One of the messengers one day come down – they would hire maybe a kid out of high school to be a messenger and come to find out, he was making $200 more a month than I was and I'm running the mail room. So, I met Mr. Dunlap. He's the vice-president at that time. I met him in the hall 'cause he'd come by and pick up his mail all the time. I said, “Mr. Dunlap, its a shame that the messengers make more money than we do in the mail room where our responsibility is so much greater.”. He said, “Well, I'm gonna tell Turner to go over there and get you fellas a raise.”. Turner was the building manager. So he went over there and talked with personnel and came back and met me in the hall. This was before I started preaching, OK? And he said, “I got you boys a raise.”. I said, “How much?”. “3 cent on the hour.”. So I told him where to stick it. I was angry. I really was. I was angry. KT: I would imagine. 0.30.54.4 CT: And I told him where to put it and I kept on walking and I went upstairs to the freight traffic department and they had a job on the board for a file clerk. So Mr. Maynor, he was an administrator and I told him, “I want that job. I got seniority and I can get it.”. “I don't know if Mr. Turner is gonna let you go.”. I said, “If you don't, I'm gonna be the richest black man in town. I'm gonna sue this company.” So, anyhow, I got the job and started making $200 more a month. And I moved around. I moved from file clerk to rate clerk. And I had to qualify. You had 90 days to qualify for these jobs. Filing is simple, anybody can do that. Working rates and doing rates is a tremendous job because you have to go through books back to the year 1942 and bring it all the way up and put increases on it. I worked trans-con which was the West Coast line. Nobody would help me except for one white guy named Bobby West. He worked with me and helped me a lot. The guy that was the chief clerk in there, he tried his best to get me disqualified but I made it. Then I went from there to tear (??) bureau to piggyback. We called the piggy intermodal and I worked at intermodal for about 5-6 years back to freight traffic and I worked as a chief clerk until the merger with Southern and then they moved our – they moved all our titles back and we didn't – try to put everything together so everybody just became a clerk. Before they had different positions you could bid on, Chief Clerk, Assistant Chief Clerk and different things. Then they made all of 'em just clerks. So I worked there – Well, I worked at Norfolk & Western for – including time off and on for 38 years. In 1971, I was called into ministry. I was working piggyback at that time. As a matter of fact, they did a story on me in the N&W magazine that - I have it around here somewhere but I don't know where. (chuckling) And the title was, “The Best of Two Worlds” 'cause I was able to pastor a small church in Catawba and also worked. They really couldn't afford a pastor. My pastor made me feel like I was on top of the world. When they called me to that church, he says, “Brother Tinsley, if I had had a church like this when I first went into ministry, I would've been sittin' on the world.”. I got up there, the people couldn't sing, wouldn't sing. I had to do all the singing until I got – (laughing) KT: And it worked, huh? CT: Yeah. I finally got the church ____ and baptized my first people. In fact, there was a funeral for one of the girls yesterday – not yesterday, day before yesterday who was one of the young ladies that I first baptized. She was 54 years old when she died. But I stayed up there for 7 years but I had other churches too. At one time, I was pastoring 3 churches and working. KT: Wow. CT: What happened, I would have 2 on the first Sunday and 1 on the second Sunday. And then when I went to a full-time church, I had a full-time church in Natural Bridge, Virginia. I pastored at Indian 7 �Rock at 2:00 and then I'd go at 7:00 to Catawba. KT: So you did a lot of driving. 0.34.50.2 CT: Oh, God, yes. But it was a joy for me to do that and then I didn't stay at Natural Bridge but 1 year and then I got called to First Baptist Church in ______ and I pastored there for right at 15 years. I took a sabbatical and had brain surgery and went to Buena Vista to help them out and they called me to be the pastor. So I went there going on, would be 15 years this actual July. KT: When you said you had brain surgery, what was - ? CT: I had a pituitary gland tumor. I was blind in my left eye and the tumor had killed the main gland that gives your body what it needs. So when they found out, they gave me medicine to supplement what my gland wasn't doing but I still had to have the surgery because I was blind. So they went up through my nose and into the middle of my head took the tumor out. The first operation was in '92. I had to have it again in '99. So, since then, I've been doing pretty good. KT: Did you get your sight back? CT: Oh, yeah. My sight came back after the first operation. What happened, the doctor said the tumor was like a clothesline, the optic nerve rather. The tumor had propped up the optical nerve like you would prop up a clothesline so once they removed the tumor and let it down. But there was some swag in there so he took some fat out of my side and put it in the hold that the tumor came out of. When I woke up, he said, “Can you see?”. “Yeah, doctor, I can see.”. (both laughing) That was a great thing really. KT: To get your sight back? CT: Yes, Lord have mercy, yeah. And you know the fact that being blind, I didn't know I was blind. I knew something was wrong 'cause for the past 3 or 4 months, I didn't have no energy and my joints was aching. I felt like a 90 year-old man and I told my wife, “I don't know how a 90 year-old man is supposed to feel but that's what it feels like.”. (laughing) We laughed about that though. And when I found out that I had the tumor, I went to work one day and normally I take my glasses off to work. I just set 'em on the shelf. I was trying to read some small text and I couldn't read it and I took my glasses and put 'em on and it didn't help it. Taking 'em off. And I said my eyes are changing. I need to call my eye doctor. So I called him and told him I needed to see him that week. So he said, “Alright Carl, come on in on Wednesday.”. “OK Doc.”. So I go see him and he covered up this eye and said, “Read the chart”. “OK Doc”. Closed that eye, nothing was there, black spot. I said, “Doc, I'm blind in my left eye.”. Well, Dr. Shordrees (??) and I were pretty good friends and he said, “Carl, this can't happen this quick. What happened? Have you seen anybody since you've seen me?”. I said, “Yeah. I broke my glasses when I was downtown. I went to an optometrist and he fixed the glasses and he also checked my eye.”. So he called him and he ran every test he could think of. He finally called a neurosurgeon and made an appointment for me to see him that day. When I went to see him, he ran some tests and told me I had to have an MRI to be sure what was wrong. But I just knew I had a brain tumor. I was just, Oh God. KT: You had the feeling? CT: That night, I didn't sleep a wink. KT: So '99 was your last surgery? CT: '99 at UVA. The first surgery was here in Roanoke. It was a miracle. When I went to see the neurosurgeon, he told me, “Reverend Tinsley, I'll tell you what. There's a man named Duncan. He's done 8 operations like yours, 8 or 9. And he is the best I've ever seen. I want you to go see him.”. So I did. Me and my wife went to see him. He talked with us and he told us all of what he was going to do and he did it. He done something – Starting that Friday, I had to have surgery on Monday, so he put me on steroids. He said, “I'm gonna give you steroids every 4 hours and that's to make the membrane in your head tough so when I press down, it won't tear it will just be like jello. I'll press down in there 8 �and it'll come back.”. That's when I found out why people use steroids. Now you talk about making you feel good and giving you energy. Lord, have mercy. KT: It gave you energy and - ? 0.39.57.4 CT: Yeah, after I had surgery and I'm laying in the bed the day after and everybody says, “You had surgery?”. I said, “Yeah”. (laughing) All I had was a little drip patch across my nose and I came home after 5 days. I looked out there in the yard and it was spring, about this time. The grass was growing and I wanted to get out there and rake the yard so bad. KT: Five days after surgery. CT: Yeah, but what he did the day after surgery, he began to take me off the steroids gradually, gradually. My legs ached me like a tooth ache. I couldn't understand why my legs were hurting so bad until much later. It was withdrawal. I know what people go through when they have these withdrawals. Some of 'em, their whole body hurting 'em and they go through different things. But my legs. KT: That's what bothered you? CT: Oh, God, they ached like a tooth ache. After I got through that and I was home, I felt like I could run a mile. Stuff got out my system. (chuckling) KT: Different story. CT: Yeah. I was back to normal. KT: Let me back up to, you had mentioned that the year that you had got married to your wife, how did you meet her? And where did she live? CT: My wife was born in West Virginia but she lived in - Her father was a coal miner like my dad but she had an aunt that had a lot of land in Franklin County. Her aunt gave her mother a farm over in Franklin County about 3 or 4 miles from where we lived. Her brother, she had 5 brothers and 4 sisters. 2 of the older sisters were married. That's where we got married was at the older sister's house. We used to go across the mountain as kids and play with her brothers and sisters. And she was going to Brown School. When she started her first year, she was a little unique. She didn't walk with – We'd all be walking, playing and she'd be ahead of everybody, swinging that lunch bucket. My brother used to pick at her and she'd take bucket and beat him up. She was a mean little thing. When we'd go across the mountain to play with 'em, they'd peep around the house and see us and take off. Anyhow, I had thought nothing more about that. We went back to West Virginia and they went back to West Virginia finally. They stayed out there. She went to school at Conley High School which was an integrated school. Right out of Mullins a place called Valwood. She graduated and she moved to – Came to live with her sister in Roanoke, her older sister on Rugby Boulevard. I met her brother one day downtown and I said, “Where's Yvonne?”. Let me regress. I didn't see anyone until I was 18. Her grandfather died so they were down from West Virginia – She was still in school. - for his funeral. I was home on leave. So, me and my step-brothers – We were all about the same age – we went up to see 'em. Her sister and I were in the same grade when I was going to school. I said, “I'm going to see Delores” but I wound up sitting on the couch beside her. And she had bloomed and blossomed. Man, I tell ya. (laughing) So we got in the car and rode around town, you know, like young people do. And we started talking so I took her address and she took mine and we started writing each other off and on for about 3 ½ years. And I didn't see her but that one time. She sent me a picture and I sent her a picture. I wouldn't show the guys her picture when I was in the service 'cause I thought they'd accuse me of robbing the cradle. She looked so young. (laughing) But I kept her picture and when I got out of the service, I kinda just broke away from that part. I was working at Bassett and living at home. And when I met Lawrence, they'd tell me, “She's over here in Roanoke over on Rugby Boulevard.”. Man, I took off. I went up there and asked her out on a date. We went - I used to take her to dances with me. I was going to take her to the movies one day. I got to the movie parking over at the old Virginia 9 �Theater and I needed a nickel for the parking meter. I didn't have no change. I said, “Honey, Yvonne, you got a nickel?”. “I'm not giving you no money.”. I said, “Well, I don't have no change.”. “Well, I'm not gonna give you anything.” I said, “Well, we're going back home.”. (laughing) I took her back home. 0.45.21.5 KT: Oh, did you? CT: I don't think this could happen to no one but me. (laughing) We dated. I had made up my mind that I was tired of just running around on Saturday doing this. I wanted to settle down. I wanted a family. So I started coming to see her regular. I was working at Bassett and I would leave there and come home, dress, and ride to Roanoke. My daddy was – he'd be sittin' in one chair asleep and I'd be sitting in the other one. (laughing) KT: How much younger was she than you? Was she younger or older? CT: Yeah, she was younger. She was 2 ½ years younger. We got married in '56. Our first son was born in '57. KT: How many children do you have? CT: Well, I told you we had – or did I tell you? KT: I think you might've written it but we didn't talk about it. CT: Well, my brother, Eugene Tinsley, he was – his wife or the girl he was living with, they had 3 children. She just had – in fact, Faye had just had – He was born about a week before I got married and I picked him up at the hospital. I picked her and him up and carried 'em home. 3 weeks later she died. So Yvonne and I took the baby. We had our honeymoon and we took the baby that Monday and we kept him close to 2 years. He was at 19 months old I think. My brother had moved to D.C. He called my father about a month before his death and said, “Daddy, if anything happens to me, would you take my children and raise 'em.”. And daddy promised him that he would. So when my brother was killed in Washington _______. He and a friend – actually, his friend, they got to fighting and my brother always fought with fists but this guy was a knife man. He stabbed him. He died. He died really because they didn't treat him. They could've saved his life at the hospital, but back then, they wouldn't do any operating unless they got permission. By the time they contacted daddy, it was 4 or 5 hours later. He bled internally. He had told the police that it was an accident so they didn't charge the guy. We had a baby then. Terry was born. So, we decided since daddy didn't let us be separated, we'd try to get all the kids together. It was 2 boys and 1 girl. Of course, her mother came and got the girl and went back to Buffalo, New York, and we tried to get her but decided it wasn't working. It was too much trouble to go through to try to get her. But anyhow, we took Dino (??) to be with his brother. That's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. We had to leave him. Oh, Lord. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't do it. I reckon it worked out best 'cause he and his brothers grew up together and I used to call Faye's mother and tell her to let Eve come down so she could meet her brothers and they could spend some time together. So, she used to come down during the summer sometimes when she got a certain age and she stayed with us and I'd take her over and let her get with her brothers. So they had a relationship and a fellowship. Right now, the oldest son, my oldest nephew, he's dead and Dino (??), the one we kept he lived here in Roanoke and worked for the VA. Eve, she's in New York. Bless her heart. Debating whether she wants to live down in this part again 'cause her grandmother who had raised her is dead and she don't have – she's got one son, a son and a daughter and a granddaughter. So, she was talking about coming, moving back here. I told her she needed to come and be closer to her brother. I hope she'll do that. KT: Did you have one child or did you have - ? 0.49.54.5 CT: Two. 2 sons. Michael was born in '58 and we almost lost him to pneumonia twice. When he was 17, he wanted to quit school. You know how these youngsters go through this stage. So, he and these 10 �kids were going to work together. They wanted to live in an apartment. I said, “OK. Maybe you can make it. Everybody don't need an education. Maybe you can make it.”. He and his 2 or 3 friends, they had a little house over here on Norfolk Avenue. They had a coal stove in there. (laughing) He worked at Community Hospital. So all of 'em got laid off but him. He was carrying the load. He said there were rats in there so big, they'd pick up and ____________. (laughing) But I told him, I said, “Tell you what, you've got to give up your house key.”. He didn't want to do that. I said, “You can't live in two places.”. My house. I told you we were trying to teach him a lesson which we did. After about 3 or 4 months, he called me, “Daddy, can I come home and visit?”. I said, “Yeah.”. I went and picked him up. He was in the car riding with me and he said, “Daddy, I'm coming back home.”. I said, “I don't think so.”. I drove on. I said, “If I remember correctly, you asked me if you could leave so you'll have to ask me if you can come back.”. He slumped down in his seat. “Daddy, can I come home?”. I said, “Yeah. My rules stand. Your momma's rules stand. You get your butt back in school and you do what you're supposed to do.”. So he came back and right after, he wanted to join the Army. So his momma says, she came in one day, he was laying in the bed asleep. She went out to work. She says, “When I get back here, you better have a job or you're not going to be laying in my bed.”. (laughing) So he went and joined the Army. He had his training in New Jersey and then he went to Fort Benning, Georgia. We had really gotten close during that time and we would write and I called him all the time. I got a call one Monday from – No, I didn't get no call. My next door neighbor, she was home and I was at work and his momma was at work and Terry was married. He was a Marine at Camp Lejeune. Anyhow, she said, “Reverend Tinsley, some service men over here to see you.”. I said, “Oh, God. Tell 'em I'll be there in a few minutes.”. They said, “Naw, you stay where you are. They're coming to where you are.”. I knew something was wrong. But I thought this was my oldest son and the reason I thought it was him – That particular Sunday I had preached down in Montvale, a homecoming. I preached on the family. When I got home, Terry had left me a note – We called him Terry because his momma said we can't have two Carls. He left me a note and it said, “Daddy, I took the battery out of your other car 'cause my battery was bad.” And I told Yvonne, “Oh God, that battery is bad too.”. And I was worried about him because there was a terrible storm coming up and they had to go through that storm. All night long, I was worried and waiting the next day for a certain time so I could call and find out if he had made it OK. When she told me those service men were there, I just said, “Oh God, I hope he didn't have a wreck.” 'cause Sheila was pregnant with our first grandchild and I was just tore up. But they said they're from the Army then I knew something had happened to Mike. And they told me that an MP had killed him that night, Sunday night. I said, “What happened?”. They said, “We don't know. We just don't know.”. So I called his commander. So I got on the phone and I called him and I said, “I want to know what happened.”. He said, “Reverend Tinsley, an MP broke the door down to the barracks and shot him.”. I said, “Why?”. He said, “I don't know but we're investigating it now.”. So, I came home and went and got Yvonne, had to tell her that her son was dead. That's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. How do you tell a mother that her baby is dead? So she was working at ITT at that time and I went out there and got her. I went by and got her sister first 'cause I told her, “I can't handle it by myself.”. Her and her sister, Delores, had grew up like they were twins almost. So anyhow, we got her and we came on home. I got on the phone and I started making some phone calls. So I told the man, I said, “I don't want y'all to do nothing to him until he get here.”. They said, “We've got to embalm him.”. I said, “I want to know what happened.”. The guy said, “Well, he had barricaded himself in his room and he wouldn't open the door and the duty officer couldn't get him to open the door so he calls for the MP.”. The MP came and it was 2 what they call MID men, special service men. They're big guys. He was angry when they got there. He jumps out of his jeep 'cause he couldn't find the place for a long time. He rode up there, “Where's he at?”. “He's in his room.”. He didn't talk to the duty officer and didn't ask nobody no questions. Breaks the door down! ___________. When he knocked the door in, he said, “Freeze or else I'll blow you away.”. Bam! All in 3 minutes from the 11 �time he got out of the jeep. So he was charged with murder which was the right charge and I didn't expect them to convict him of murder. I thought maybe they'd convict him of manslaughter. I was really angry when I found out he was the top MP on the base. Anyhow, they were going to have a trial in November. So I went down, me and a friend, a lawyer friend of mine for a 4 ½ day trial. On the 5th day which was on a Friday, this judge which, as far as I'm concerned, wasn't a judge, was just somebody sittin' up there. Said, “Well, the defense is closed and we're going to give it to the jury.”. He said, “Well, its 12 o'clock. We're going to lunch and then we're coming back.”. So we got up and we went out because we wanted to get lunch and get back. Before we could get to our cars, the jury which was made up of 5 enlisted men and 1 Sargent Major who had 35 years service. They had said, “We don't need no time.”. Don't you know they didn't find him guilty of nothing. He broke every rule, every regulation that the Army had but they couldn't find him guilty because if they had, the commander on the base, his career would've been shot. So he had hand picked the jury so that they would not find him guilty. So in order to hang somebody, he went after Mike's duty officer and Mike's commanding officer and he broke those two. Killed their career. I'm gonna tell you something and its true. When I went there, I had a 32 pistol in my back pocket, about that small. I had made up my mind if they didn't find him guilty, I was going to kill him in the courtroom. And I would have but the Lord moved me out of there. I know if he hadn't – If we had stayed there for the verdict, I planned to shoot him. There was no doubt in my mind I was going to kill him. I was hurting, honey, I was hurting. God knows I was hurting. When I got back, I was so depressed I couldn't find nobody. We got back, the place was closed. I mean it was dark, wasn't a light on in the place. And I finally found a Lieutenant and he said, “Reverend Tinsley, if it had been my son, I would've killed that SOB.”. I said, “Well, I would have if I had been there.”. I just – He tried to give me all the support he could. He kept saying, “I don't know how you can take it.”. I came back home. I tell you, I was in a deep depression. I didn't think I was ever going to preach again to tell you the truth. I was just so out of it. All I could think about was trying to find him then I could kill him. I had to wrestle with that for about a year before I could really forgive him like I'm supposed to. Like a Christian's supposed to. But, we're human. I had to deal with that and Yvonne had to deal with it. But, somehow, we made it thought. I think one of the things that really helped us, my oldest son's wife was pregnant. Sheila was pregnant with her first child. 7 months later, my grandson was born. Me and Yvonne drove down to Camp Lejeune with her mother and Terry went on and picked the baby up and brought him over and put him in his mother's arms. And I saw that look on her face. (pause) I think that's when the healing started. We had gotten her an apartment right across the street. He had to go to Okinawa for a year. So when they moved from Lejeune, we found an apartment over here. Everyday I would get him. Me and Yvonne we took him really for the first 5 years of his life. He was our balm. He was our balm I tell you the truth. The Lord taketh away but the Lord also giveth. And he gave us, we call him trouble and then Carl III came on board and he and I were just like that. 1.01.14.5 KT: Grandpa's boy, huh. CT: He would be with me. If I was in a meeting, he would be there. When somebody would come in to interview me on television, he'd would just sit there, he wouldn't move. He was with me and he always called me Carl. He never called me nothing else but Carl. KT: Really? CT: Both of my grandsons, that's all they ever called me. Yvonne would say, “That's your granddaddy.”. “That's Carl.”. That's the first name they could say. Yvonne said, “They thing you're their playmate.”. KT: How old are they now? CT: My oldest grandson is 29. My youngest will be 24 in June. KT: They still call you Carl? 12 �CT: Still call me Carl. Now my great-grandson, Davante (??), which is Deanthony's (??) son, he calls me Papa. See I tried to get the rest of 'em to call me Papa but they wouldn't. KT: Wouldn't do it. CT: Tried to pay 'em. (chuckling) KT: Now let me kinda back up just a little bit. CT: My involvement in the community, we need to talk about that. KT: Well, involvement in the community, absolutely, and specifically, kinda backing up a little bit with Gainsboro. 'Cause you lived there for a while. CT: I worked in Gainsboro the whole time. That was our community really. I was the third person that moved in this neighborhood, on this street, Lakeview and Springhill. Lower Northwest Roanoke was where we hung out, YMCA. But I got involved in Scouting when I was working 2 jobs. One of the guys - one that used to be the life insurance company right there on Gainsboro, right beside Claytor's Clinic. KT: OK: CT: And upstairs. He talked to me one day. He said, “You ought to get involved in Scouting.”. 'Cause my brother-in-law, he was involved. He worked with the Housing Authority, I mean at the Lincoln Terrace. They had just built that. I'd help him some. He said, “You should get involved.”. I said, “I don't have time.”. He said, “Tinsley, let me tell you, all these people around here, none of them have time. I don't have time.”. So I got involved in Scouting. When I joined Pilgrim Baptist Church, I got a Scout troop together. I worked in Scouting for about 12 years. I also worked in Sandlot Football, baseball. Because when we moved up to this area, I wanted my kids to get involved. So I had to get involved to get them involved. I was serving on the board at Southwest Community Development Fund that just started when urban renewal started. This is before they started tearing down anything. I served on the Southwest Board. Tom Morris was our first director and Sam Hale, he's the director now and still there. Done a lot. It was 3 agencies, BIA, CIE and CORD. We were CORD in this community. And our job was to try to create and rebuild jobs, businesses and this kind of thing. But in the meantime, they're tearing down all these houses. What really upset me was the fact they tore out the best houses first. KT: Really? 1.04.57.4 CT: I mean houses that would still be standing and be modern because the people wanted – They got _______ OK, we're gonna take this property. We're gonna tear all this out and we're gonna rebuild and you can move back if you want to. That was the story they told. Well, the people who had the best houses and the best connections, they sold theirs and they took their houses first. When the program changed after Johnson, then the program changed – Nixon I think it was. It took a turn so they quit. And we had a lot of people out there still living in shacks and, believe it or not, a lot of 'em still have outhouses out on the other end of where the Coca Cola plant is now. I was trying to sell some real estate then and a lot of people wanted to buy. “They're gonna take my house.”. I said, “No, you better wait 'til you get the money before you really make – because you won't have enough money unless the Housing Authority does take your house.” It was 7 years later that they took this guy's house. He wanted to buy a house. He went and bought one but I wouldn't sell it to him because I knew that the Housing Authority was changing. They were doing different things and I didn't think – In fact, they had no – Not the idea really to rebuild back in the community. That's when we called that business, across from Gainsboro Road all the way over up to 5th Street. That was the city plan. But we got behind them and started pushing that they start building and they started building over right off of Madison Avenue back in that area. Now, I got involved in Gainsboro Neighborhood Development Corporation. Percy Keeling was our president and George Heller was the director. You need to talk to George Heller and you'll get a lot of history. We started rehabbing houses. We got money from the 13 �city. The City Block Grant Fund and we were doing a great job really. But, during that time, it was also drugs, there were a lot of drugs out there. Hooper was the police chief. They didn't care if the drugs stayed in the black community. Fairfax used to be an open drive. People would drive through there, stop their car, you know. And we had rehabbed two houses up there. We went in there thinking it was going to cost $20,000 and we wound up spending about $60,000. Had to tear it all the way down to the frame. And we couldn't sell 'em. Nobody would buy. Nobody wanted to buy where you have drugs – drugs were rampaging during that time. So the Housing Authority took those houses. When Percy got sick, I became president. Over on Madison Avenue, there are townhouses. KT: Mm mm. CT: That was the project we wanted to do and I wanted to see it through. When we started that project, I had got a commitment from the bank for the money and then the bank went under. Which one was that? Sovereign. Remember when Sovereign went under? KT: Mm mm. 1.08.12.7 CT: So I had to go to another bank. I went to Nations Bank. They agreed to let me have the money but to piece-meal it. So it took us a good while to build that. And it cost us probably $800,000 more. I finally sold the last house in '9-. The end of '90s when I sold the last house. But it was a beautiful community. That's the one thing that I'm proud of. We built those townhouses. I almost did it singlehanded because I had – Margaret Tecker (??) was the director. I had several people serve on the board but they were afraid. They were older people and they didn't want to get sued. I can understand. And they finally started dropping off and really, me and Margaret were running the whole game. I kept people advised and I got to meet a lot of people and learn a lot about that. When we finished, I said, “Well, I want the community to get involved. The people that bought those houses, you should be involved now with what else goes on over here.”. In the meantime, we had rehabbed about 60, close to 70-some houses up through that area. I feel we did a wonderful job. But the Housing Authority sat on a lot of that land when they could've/should've been money provided to the Block Grant to redevelop it like it was supposed to be. But the city has different plans. We just found out later – we found out years ago that the city had plans that didn't include that. They had what they called that 20 year plan all the way up to 5th Street. It didn't include – In fact, their plan was to get rid of all the property between there and 5th Street. I started working with another group when Ms. Davis and her sister, Betha (??) when First Baptist Church got built. We were working, trying to make sure we maintained that area. And certainly the church was taken care of. That was one of the promises that was made. We, Percy, when we were with Gainsboro Development, Percy Keeling and Reverend Wright was involved at that time, we had to do a study. The city gave us $105,000 to do a feasibility study about Henry Street to come up with a plan for it. We got a group out of Atlanta, Georgia, to come here and to do a study and to make plans. We presented the plans to the city and they set it aside 'cause they didn't need for it to be developed like we wanted it. It was business and restaurants. It was going to be restored really, pretty much like it was. But they didn't mean for that to happen. So they put it on the side and they said, at that time, Taylor had become Mayor, “We're gonna give this to Mayor Taylor. That's going to be his project.”. Well, that killed it right there 'cause there was nothing ever done and now we're still fighting about the Social Security Building and the Higher Education Building. I don't think it bothers as much as taking the other land and using it. We wanted to maintain some identity to Henry Street rather than just say, “You've got a bridge that represents Henry Street by the Dumas Hotel.”. I've seen a lot of change here and, you know what, it would've been nice if it would've been all for the good rather than sometimes for selfish reasons. KT: You just mentioned the Dumas? CT: The Dumas Hotel. KT: Do you remember any of the entertainers who came to the Dumas? 14 �1.12.18.3 CT: Oh God, yes. We used to have, before they tore down – did the Dry Dock, the old auditorium on Wells Avenue, that's where they used to have all the dances. James Brown, Count Basie, _____, all the big bands. The only place they could stay was at the Dumas. That was a classy place. Its the only place blacks had to stay. Of course, going to the dance down on Wells Avenue, it was always, when I walked in there, 'cause when I was in the service, I hitchhiked from Norfolk. We had _____ up some planes and I was in Norfolk. So I get up here and go to the dances and concerts. And we danced. There wasn't no concert, we danced. At those dances, our folks was dressed up and it looked like a flower garden. And all of the white folks was up in the balcony. They had the police over there trying to keep them from coming down. So they'd come down and get mixed in with that. (laughing) You couldn't stay still with that music. It was beautiful. And then Joe ____ built a place up on Wells Avenue and that's where they started having it. But all of the performers that come in here, the only place they had to stay was the Dumas. Count Basie and – I got to see a lot of 'em. Silas Green's show used to come here. That was something else. It was wonderful. They used to have that at the Virginia Theater and sometimes out in tents but that was beautiful. KT: Did you see James Brown? CT: Oh God, yes. KT: Did ya? CT: Let me tell ya. As far as I'm concerned, James Brown and I are the same age. He had the best band of any singing group in the land. When you walked in with the James Brown band was going, your feet would automatically start moving. (laughing) KT: Couldn't sit still. CT: Couldn't stand still. Those feet would start moving. (laughing) When he first started out – The first time I think he came to Roanoke, I was here. James Brown. And he was a showman. I agree, he was the hardest working man in show business. He put on a show that wouldn't wait. Yes indeed. Lionel Hampton. It was good to see him too. Those guys were young. B.B. King and Fats Domino. All those guys used to come through here. KT: I had no idea. CT: Oh yes. Roanoke was a famous place for entertainment especially on our side. Fats Domino. We went to see Fats and he had his feet up and there was a hole in the bottom of his shoe. (laughing) That's the entertainment part. Yes. My wife and I, when I was dating her, I took her to some of the events down on Wells Avenue. 1.15.33.7 KT: You said your community service, community work CT: Well, I've been involved in the NAACP, Southwest Community Development Fund, CORD, which is our oldest community organization - How many others? - A couple of 'em I can't remember now. And the Y. I always supported the YMCA. I was hoping and it has been my dream and Percy's dream and a lot of people's dream here in Roanoke that we were going to build a Y for the black people. We had the land and we had a lot of money. Just never got off the ground. When Taylor started, they started talking about putting the Ys together. So they took our money and our land and we got nothing from it. That thing broke Percy's heart. So Percy Keeling was one of the most outstanding guys in the community because he ran the Y. The old Y used to be this big building right on Gainsboro. Upstairs, I got a picture of me hanging out the window doing an interview with one of the guys from Roanoke Times. But those are the organizations, Southwest, CORD, NAACP, SCOC, all of the civil rights organizations plus I was a Mason and trying to preach and pastor churches and work. I had a handful. KT: Busy guy. CT: Yes, Lord. Well, I had more energy then. I don't have that energy today, I'll tell you. 15 �KT: I guess now we'll close the interview but is there anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to share? That you can think of? 1.17.29.5 CT: When I first came to Roanoke and I got married, I served on a biracial committee when they started integrating the schools. One of the things – white people from across the community – I can't remember everybody's name now, myself, Taylor, Avine Smith (??) and Dr. Law (??) and a few others who served on those committees. We met downtown at the cafeteria then. I believe it was S&W and worked on the plan and keep things at a stable place. In 1965, I got a call from – Well I actually got a – Brewer (??) called me, a guy I worked with – the Kiwanis Club wanted some black to speak with 'em about this integration. He wouldn't do it so he asked me if I would do it. I said, “Yeah, I'll do it.”. Anyhow, they invited me out to the Oasis which was a segregated restaurant at that time. We went in the back room and there were about 45 white gentlemen and they fed me steak and potatoes and tea. So after I ate, I got up and they were eager to hear what I had to say. I got up and I looked at 'em and I said, “OK. I want y'all to turn black.”. (laughing) They looked at me funny. I said, “I want you to turn black 'cause you're not going to know what I'm talking about unless you walk in my shoes. I want you to look from my point of view. And I know why you're upset. I know what's upsetting you now. You don't want the school desegregated because your forefathers and your grandfathers have taken advantage of our women down through the years.”. I said, “Look at me. I should be black, nappy hair, maybe big lips, African descent. I'm not. I could be one of y'alls brothers. Who knows? But you're afraid that your little white daughters and the little black boys want to get together. I've got news for you. What goes around comes around. That's gonna happen.”. KT: How did they take to your speech? 1.19.41.6 CT: You know what? You could hear a pin fall for 45 minutes. I actually laid it out on the line. I said, “Now, if you had to lie to your children and many of 'em have found out that you lied and they look down on you for that because you told them that black people were inferior. They were lazy. They were this and that. Now, they've found out going to school with 'em, that's not so. They're humans just like they are. And you can't stop people from getting together when they start liking each other. They're gonna be alright. Its us I'm worried about. We were not exposed to this. We didn't expect this but its coming. So, we have to make sure that we can work together. Make sure that everybody has an equal opportunity. We can't stop what's going on now. Its gonna happen.”. Well, they must've enjoyed it because they got the women and I had to speak to the women's group. They didn't appreciate it as much I don't think as much as the men. KT: I was going to say, did you tone it down for the women at all? CT: I did. I did tone it down. I really did. I really did. I didn't speak to them on the same level as I did the men. Because you know how mommas are about their daughters. KT: OK, well, I guess we're gonna close for now. CT: If you thought we could put everything in that tape that I've been through and been involved in this community, you'd have to have about a dozen, maybe a hundred tapes. KT: We got an overview. CT: Yeah, this is just an overview of what my life has been like. But I have been a staunch person for justice. I really have. During the time when Hooper was Chief of Police, a lot of things happened under his watch that was wrong. It was totally wrong. And one incident happened when the Kroger's used to be over here on 19th Street. There was a black man that stole a bottle of wine. He was running. The police – An off-duty policeman shot him in the back and they didn't want to do anything about it. So I had the Justice Department come in here and work with the police department. And they ended up firing the guy because he really had no business doing what he did. Chief Hooper hated me with all his power. I feel sorry for him really 'cause he wanted to run the police department like the Nazis were 16 �running the gestapo. Take no prisoners. When you shoot, you shoot to kill. Nobody can talk. A lot of policemen told me and not all policemen are bad. I want to make that plain. There are some good policemen on that force but you can't be a good police and be there with a couple of bad apples in the bucket because there's a code. You don't talk about each others profession, especially people that are working with you. But a lot of 'em off the record told me that he was something else. They couldn't even talk to him. They couldn't get to him. He needed to go. He finally – He had cancer and died. I wanted once to go to his funeral and I said, “No. He might get up.”. (laughing) KT: Wouldn't want that. (laughing) CT: I've cultivated some good relationships downtown now. One of my greatest achievements I think is the fact that I was a Jesse Jackson Delegate in 1984 and 1988. When Jesse decided to run for president, I was serving on – I didn't tell you what political party – I served on the Democratic Party and I served as chairman during the year that Douglas was elected but I was vice-chairman for a number of years. Chip Woodrow and Vick Thomas and all those, we were all Democrats working together. So, at that time we were having a mass meeting. And whoever had the most people out for the candidate, we'd get the delegates. So Chip had asked me, “Carl, how many you think you can get out of there?”. I said, “Chip, you know I'm ____ full cuff (??). If I get 10 I'll be lucky.”. I got on the phone. I had people get on the phone and I was calling people everywhere. That Saturday, about 125 showed up. KT: Oh, wow. CT: We took the majority of the delegates. I went to Richmond to the State Convention and was elected delegate from here to the National. Myself, John Edwards and – I don't know whether Chip went or not. Anyhow, it was quite an experience. Oh, my God, was it an experience. 1.24.54.2 KT: And what year was that? CT: 1984. 1984, good year. KT: Well, you certainly CT: I was there when he made that speech that Friday. I'm gonna tell you honey, if I never go to another or see another one, there will never be another one like that. I've never seen such jubilant – It was almost like it was a church service. When he got up and spoke. He had a text – I've got a copy of it somewhere now and that's why he just moved to the side. I was in the back. It looked like a shadow moving across the stage and just got in him. And when he got through, everybody was jumping up and down. People were crying, white and black. I mean, you wouldn't believe. It was something else. If they had had an election that night, he'd have got elected. (laughing) KT: I think that one thing is for certain, you have had a very industrious life and definitely worked for what you believe in. I think that definitely comes through. CT: In 1988, I got a chance to go to Atlanta when they had the convention there and that was another place that – Oh, nothing like it. If you ever have a chance to go to a national, Democrat – I don't know how the Republicans conventions but I know how Democrats are. (laughing) KT: We'll just guess about the Republicans. CT: Its really something to behold. The people you meet. When I went to California, I was in San Francisco in '84, I got off the plane with my wife. I had never been to California before. I didn't know nobody. Somebody says, “Carl.” (laughing) It was this guy, Joe Calloway, I believe his name is. He used to live here in Roanoke but he's been out there for several years. KT: Oh, wow. CT: He picked me and my wife up and showed us around. The next day we had time and I got a chance to meet Willie Brown. He was the state chair – What was his position? - He was in charge of Senate in the State House. They had a party out there that was 3 blocks long. And there were so many people there, it was just like a sea of people. You were moving like this. And they had food and music 17 �from every nationality. It was on the docks. You just walked from one place to the other. Food, all kinds. When we first got there, we didn't buy nothing, food for the first 3 days 'cause everywhere we went they had these nick-nacks, you know, you're eating all the time so you weren't hungry. So I told my wife, I said, “Listen. I want some steak and eggs.” That's when I found out the San Francisco is cold. We got out there that day. It was hot, God, it was hot. They were having a heat wave really. The man said, “We ain't had this kind of weather in I don't know when.”. We checked into this hotel, no air conditioning. I'm raising hell. “You mean you have no air conditioning!”. KT: And it was hot. CT: Yeah. But that night, Oh God, they had a shaft in the bathroom. If you opened the door, that air coming through there that night, we liked to froze. That room got cold. The next morning I'm looking out the window and downstairs, people got on their fur coats and leather jackets. This was in July, whenever the National Convention was. Summer months. And the lady had told me before I left here, she said, “Reverend, carry winter clothes. Don't carry no summer clothes. You won't need 'em.”. And we went across the bridge, the Golden Gate Bridge, Joe took us across there. We went up in the mountains. It was raining. We come out of the rain, through the clouds and on up the mountain and the sun was shining as beautiful as you've ever seen. That's quite a treat. You're driving down here and all at once, you go through the clouds, the rain stops and the sun is shining. KT: If you don't like the weather, just drive up the mountain. CT: Drive up to the mountain. KT: Well, I'm going to stop this for now and thank you very much. 18 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2655/Carl_Tinsley_1.0_23_March_2007.JPG 80c53ae74331ea89dbccf71c8abf18a8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Rev. Carl Tinsley Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Rev. Carl Tinsley Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 22 March 2007 Location: Private residence of Carl Tinsley Total Duration: 1:29:25 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 22 March 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rev. Carl T. Tinsley; Kellie Thomas; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TinsleyCarl https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2654/Bryant_Walter_M..mp3 436470074518389a5da775d332501e55 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2654/BryantWalter.pdf 7f4705f7fbc3b2be7ead07a9fd0578dd PDF Text Text Interviewee: Walter Bryant Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Transcriber: Andrew Sterling KT: Mr: Bryant is going to share some of his recollections with us today. He is from the Grandin Court area. Mr. Bryant. WB: I am Walter Melvin Bryant at 2702 Brambleton Avenue. This is a little story about my activities over my lifetime. I was born November 1, 1911, in Martinsville, Virginia. My family moved to Roanoke when I was 8 months old. My father laid track for streetcars for a while. He then worked as a carpenter on railroad boxcars for the N&W at Shaefer's Crossing. We lived close to the railroad in the area around 15th Street Northwest. We had a cow in the pasture. We had a long chain so he could tie it out during the day and bring it in in the evening then to milk it and so forth. One evening, I was watching my mother milk and picked up the iron stob they used for tying the cow and was staking it and stomping it in the ground. I missed the ground and hit my foot. It went through. KT: Ooooh. WB: About 1915 or '16, we moved to a home on Ogden Road where the Floyd Bank is now located. We lived there until after the war of 1918 and '19. My father had to walk to South Roanoke to catch a streetcar, ride to town, transfer to a west-end streetcar. It went to 18th Street, Patterson Avenue. He then walked to the west-end shops at 24th Street. My mother's brother-in-law owned all of what is now Tanglewood Mall. KT: That's a lot of land. WB: His house was on the east side of Franklin Road. I remember my father's brother coming, walking up the hill in the field. He was just getting out of the Army. We were living there during the flu epidemic which we all had. I started school at the 2-room school which was just across the railroad bridge. The 2 teachers _____ was most of the children had to walk a long way to get there. Some from even on Colonial Avenue. While living there, my mother hitched up our horse to the buggy and drove to my grandmother's house which was on the hill overlooking Horton Field - That is just on 24th Street Northwest. - where the first airplane was going to land on the field and we saw it land and take off. They roped off the area and had police out on guard there. We moved to 14th Street and Melrose Avenue about 1919. Carter Brothers had a grocery store at the corner of 14th Street and Melrose. They had a horse and wagon to deliver groceries. The man who drove the horse later was the custodian at my church. While living there, I went to Monrose School at about 17th Street and Melrose Avenue. About 1921, my father bought a farm house with about 7 acres land. It was at the intersection of what is now Weaver Road and Brambleton Avenue. It was just open land at that time. There was a section called Weaver Heights. It included Tillet Road on the North, Weaver Road and Barham connected the two roads. Access was by a narrow dirt road from Grandin Road up the hill up to Tillet and later, a 40 acre tract was bought by Mr. Weaver. It was from Grandin Road including Livingston. It was called Grandin Court. Later the area to the South, about 120 acres, was bought. It was called Grandin Court Annex and the area for the park to be called Weaver Park was laid out. Later the area was named Grandin Court. Mr. Fishburn gave land to extend the park to the creek and the name of it was changed to Fishburn Park. Finally, a dirt road was made somewhat where Brambleton Avenue is now. It started at the end of Woodlawn and went to Garst Mill Road. It would get muddy in the winter. I remember a Mr. Jiles Parker who operated at the Firsburn Fish Market at the downtown market was dating his later wife who was living with the family named Yost. He would get stuck in the muddy road. We had a horse so he would get us to pull him out. We all had to walk to ride a streetcar to town. It came to just in front of Patrick Henry High School. I walked to the Virginia Heights School. It was about 2 miles. Starting in the 6th grade, I walked to the streetcar and ____ Road and road it to town. The cost was 5 cents or 6 tokens for a quarter. The junior school was crowded that year so they put us in the old high 1 �school that year. They decided to separate the boys and girls classes that year. One of the things that happened in the early days was a snow fence along the road. They would put them up in order to prevent snow drifts. KT: Can I ask you something real quick? About school? WB: Uh huh. KT: When you went to school, it was still segregated? Is that correct? WB: When the what? KT: When you went to school, was it still segregated? WB: No, no, no. There wasn't any blacks around. I don't know – it wasn't – but I guess it was. Oh yeah, it was a long time after that before they actually – see it hadn't been too many years – What year did they stop separation? KT: I believe it was in the '60s. WB: Yeah, somewhere in there – the '60s I think. I was out of school. I wasn't in school then. (chuckling) KT: You were done with it. WB: Yeah. KT: Do you remember when segregation - ? WB: Well, yeah, I just know that it happened. I wasn't involved in anything. I'm not sure. I guess maybe there was some integration as far as the children going to school there but no problem really. KT: Alrighty, continue. 0.09.22.0 WB: I remember trains running out of steam along the grade under the Ogden Bridge. That's over where we lived when we lived on Starkey. They had to wait for steam to build up before they could go on. See the train goes right behind the Tanglewood Mall. KT: Yep. WB: I remember baby chicks being ordered. They were shipped by parcel post and delivered with the mail. KT: Now did you guys get baby chicks ordered? WB: Yeah, people would buy baby chicks and they'd ship 'em by mail. Had little holes in the box that they was in so they'd get air. It was delivered pretty fast. I remember the first Advance Auto Store located on Jefferson Street. Can you imagine how many stores they have today? KT: They've got a few more than that, huh? WB: It was along about just above Franklin Road. I remember having an appendicitis operation. This is what I was telling you about – about 1933. The total cost was $150 and where I met my wife. I remember when Luck Avenue from 2nd Street to 6th Street, it was all homes. I remember when Roanoke Hardware was on Salem Avenue. Nelson Hardware was on Campbell Avenue and Graves Humphrey Hardware was on Church Avenue. I remember Ford Motor Company being on Salem Avenue. Chevrolet Motor was on Campbell Avenue. I remember Jefferson Hospital being on Jefferson Street. I remember several meat-packing houses being on the lower part of Campbell Avenue. I remember Garst Brothers Dairy being on Westover Avenue. The school would send 2 children for milk for the children for lunch. KT: Fresh milk, that's nice. WB: I remember streetcars going to Vinton and Salem. I remember the Viscose having a building on 9th Street to house women workers. I remember the boys having soap box races on Crystal Avenue. I remember going to Rock Ledge Inn – that's the building up on the mountain – the old Center in the Square Building. KT: Now, is that Mill Mountain? WB: Up on Mill Mountain. 2 �KT: OK. WB: In 1936, my wife and I built our home and we only hired a brick mason and a plasterer. I remember that H&C Coffee Company was born on Elberber (??) Avenue. That's an interesting story by itself. Do you want me to fill it in now or what? KT: Sure, let's fill it in. WB: Harold Woods and his brother Clarence were working for a coffee company in Richmond. And Harold's home here on Lofton Avenue on Alberta Avenue and he decided he was going to sell coffee. So, he worked, and go busy and got some raw coffee and heated it on his stove at the house and ground it. At that time, we had a little grocery store down here on the corner and he brought that pound of coffee over there and we sold it. And it went from there. And H&C Coffee sign that they've been dealing now come out of that operation on Alberta. KT: So you got a pound of their coffee and people liked it so much WB: Yeah. See, way back there, you have to remember that things like that – like people bought lard. We had a big 50-gallon maybe can of lard. You dipped out a pound and weighed it up and they got it. For breakfast bacon, you had a slab of bacon and we had a slicer that it sliced off however much they wanted and the same thing for coffee or anything else. That was the way it was handled. KT: So no prepackaged? WB: Well there was a little bit but not very much. KT: What was the name of the grocery store? WB: Grandin Court Grocery. KT: And you said you owned it? WB: My dad owned it and the building is still there. Clay Cottage was the last use but I noticed the other day, its been vacant for a long time, but I noticed that they're working on it now so evidently, somebody else is coming in there. 0.15.00.2 KT: How long did your family own that? WB: About 15 years or so. KT: What other stuff can you remember them selling? WB: I remember watching a log house being built up on Weaver Road, that's the – I know you've seen that haven't you? KT: Is it a really big one? WB: Yeah. The big log house right here on top of the hill. That was built by Mr. Weaver, the developer of the land. It was – the thing that was unusual was it was vertical logs instead of them putting them around the thing. I remember ice wagons going up and down the street. KT: Oh, my goodness. WB: And you had a card that you hung on your front porch that said whether you wanted 25 pounds, 50 pounds or what you wanted and he'd have a protection over his shoulder and he'd hang that ice over his shoulder and walk on in and put it in your refrigerator. KT: Wow. WB: I remember seeing a lime kiln on the corner of Ogden and Franklin Road. A lime kiln is a rock that they put in the streets and they came up on that hill there – If you notice there's a filling station there as Ogden goes into Franklin Road – Its a high hill on the back of it. They built up on top of it but they had this kiln built down on the ground. They come up there to dump the rock on the side of the thing and it would fall down into the thing they had built. They built a fire under that and heat that rock and then when it gets cold and they put water on it, it'll slack and that's where the – lime, that makes lime. KT: OK. I've never seen one of those. WB: At school we did that. You'd take one of the stones and put it on there and get it red hot and let it 3 �get cold and it'll slack into lime, white lime. I remember the old gas pumps where gas was pumped into a glass container up at the top and, if you wanted 5 gallons, you pumped up 5 gallons in that tank and then you let it out into your car. KT: Do you remember how much gas used to cost? WB: I have no idea but it wasn't probably 15 or 20 cents a gallon. I remember seeing the old steam engine that pumped water to homes over – Its still there. They redid it. They don't use it but the steam engine is in the old thing here at the, uh, coming down the mountain there. I remember seeing the construction of Mill Mountain Star. I worked at Hotel Roanoke, which I mention later on in here. Kensey's Sign Company was right at my back door at the hotel. So, I could walk over there and watch 'em making the frames and so forth there and get it ready to put it up. I remember all the old movie houses, American, Roanoke, Jefferson Park and Rialto. Also the Academy of Music and I played – I was in a play one time when I was going to the school up there in the old Academy of Music. KT: What'd you play? WB: Some of the parts. I don't remember what it was but it was just a play that the schools would come in there and put it on. You could go to the movie for 10 or 15 cents. Rialto was down on Campbell Avenue and the American was on the corner there where the bank used to be. I don't think its a bank there even anymore. But the corner of Jefferson and Campbell. The old auditorium first owned by the N&W and later they gave it to the American Legion. I remember seeing that, of course, being involved with the railroad. See, the hotel was owned by the N&W at that time. From the hotel, we had to do some maintenance on the auditorium and that was the case there. I watched the auditorium burn. They called me at 2:00 in the morning and it was on fire and so I went over and watched it burn. Disappointing. KT: Yeah. 0.20.13.9 WB: I remember the park that was in front of it. They used to have a park in front of the station at the back of this auditorium and it was live animals in cages over there. I remember the old freight station which is now a museum. They brought all of their damaged freight and stuff. They unloaded the good freight and they also had a room at the damaged stuff – They brought it in and sold it for the best price they could get for it. I saw the old hand pump carts used by the N&W for track maintenance. I don't know whether you ever saw one or not. But, you had a handle up and down on either side and a person would get on either side of that and pump it and the cart would run down the railroad track to go to where they wanted to work on the track. KT: OK. I've seen that in movies. WB: I saw freight engines being built. In fact, I worked for the N&W a while and we built engines there. I saw old steam shovels moving dirt. Way back when they developed Grandin Court, they didn't have bulldozers like they have today. You had a steam engine with a big dipper out on the end of it and they fired that thing up and steam and it would run the hand up and down. I saw horse wagons that had hinged bottoms so they dumped the dirt, then would wind the bottoms back up. They'd load this dirt into a wagon and they had a hinged gate underneath it. It parted in the middle and they'd get to where they wanted to do it and they'd throw the latch and that would loosen it up and dump the dirt down. They had a crank that they wound the chain back up and went and got another load of dirt. KT: So, like a dump truck with horses? WB: Yeah. I saw the old-style Victrola. One of the first ones, it had a great big horn is where the sound came out. Instead of having a disc like they have now, it was a spool. It looked like cardboard probably that slid over the thing that turned and it played up and down that thing there. But it was an antique. It really was. I saw and used a horse drag pan. Used to doing and I dug a foundation with one. They had a pan, scoop-like that had two handles on it. The horse had it. It was on a – handle out on the front that was hinged to the pan and you'd go along and hold the handle up a little bit and the 4 �horse would pull it through and scoop up dirt and you got to where you wanted it. To leave the dirt, you just lifted the handle up and it'd catch and dump it over and then you'd go back and get some more. KT: What was that used for? WB: Well, it was moving dirt. Like I say, I drug my foundation out with it. KT: So it wasn't farming, it was more like for building a home. 0.23.57.0 WB: Dragging – That's the way they got the dirt out of the foundations or building roads. When I had – I helped drag that dirt out to build Brambleton Avenue. And Brambleton Avenue was not there when we built here even. It was finally a little dirt road that I mentioned a while ago was finally got that in and went on out to Garst Mill Road. If you wanted to move some dirt, you – like I say, you couldn't get a tractor with the blade on the front of it. You had to do it with a scoop and so forth. I saw railway express cars. They used to haul express with a special car that attached to a passenger train. It would handle freight. They'd come to the station over there and unload it on 4 wheel carts to take it down. A lot of times they had to change it from one train to another or you picked it up over there. I saw railway mail cars. They had a car that hauled mail around in. They didn't have airplanes to haul it around. I remember a small water pump called the “ram”. That was down at the park down there. If you've ever been down there, you go down over the hill back on the back and there was a drinking fountain down there and a spring. And they closed that up. But there had a thing they called a “ram” which would pump water from the water source itself, where the water was running down would operate a pump and they had it – pumped it all the way up the hill and they had a spring house they called it, up on – right there at the far end of the house that's there now. See, that's the way you had to keep your – anything you wanted cool, your milk and so forth, was the spring house and it kept the cold water running through it so it didn't get hot and spoil. KT: So it kept it cool? WB: I saw Halloween fill downtown. You can't believe what an event Halloween was in those days. The streets were just full of people walking. You go down the park on your sides but you couldn't hardly drive through the streets. They were just full of people down there ripping around and carrying on. They pulled the trolley. The trolleys were operated electrically with a live wire overhead. And they had a trolley wire that reached up and would roll on it. Guys would get out there and pull that thing off the track. Stop a train at the track. KT: Did people dress up? WB: Yeah. There is a solid tire truck on display in the Transportation Museum over there now and it was owned by D.V. Ferguson out there. There was a rock quarry where the road, Garst Mill Road and Brambleton come together. So, he had – His truck is on display over there. Its a solid tire, rubber tire. Not a pumped up tire but just solid rubber. For chicken feed, we would put a bag of corn on a horse and take it to a local mill for grinding. I saw sand gotten from the creek out here that they used for pouring your foundation or doing your plastering, laying your brick and so forth. I had a hand-held walkie-talkie when I was at the hotel in those days. I retired in '76, so that was prior to that. They had an antenna up on the roof of the hotel and they could call me all the way from there here and, in other words, they used it to keep up with what we were doing, where we were and when they wanted something done. I was at South Roanoke Park several times. There used to be a park up on the side of Mill Mountain there where South Roanoke is now. They tore it down. The old thriller that was at – You didn't know about that ever being at Lakeside – I guess they had torn that down. Anyway, they had a roller coaster, thriller, at Lakeside and that came from the park up there in South Roanoke. KT: Did you ride it? 0.29.31.1 WB: No, I never did ride it. I saw the incline car go up Mill Mountain. I know you've heard about it. I saw it go up. I never did ride it but they had it on a cable and two cars and it went up and around the 5 �pulley on the top of the mountain and one went up and the other one came down, back and forth. You can see it if you know where you're looking. You can see the difference in the trees. They never have really filled in completely. But you can see where the track was and so forth. KT: OK. I've heard about that. WB: I saw tall gates across the road at Franklin Road. That was down there where you come into – out of Franklin Road and the interstate across where they tore the whole mountainside of there down there. That was a grocery store there that operated that one – particular one. And he had a peg leg. His name was Lockett and they always just called him Mr. Peg Leg Lockett. (chuckling) And there was one at over here as you go out Brandon where you turn off Brandon going out to Woodrow Wilson School. There was one there and there was another one on Boxley Hill down. Do you know where Boxley Hill is? Its the hill that kinda comes – You know there's kinda a little ball thing down there – golf thing down there at the foot of that hill. And that's Boxley Hill coming up that steep grade there. I saw a streetcar that had running boards on the sides. It was an open streetcar that they ran around in the summertime up to this park up on Mill Mountain and so forth there. You could sit there and you wasn't fenced in. It was just open and see what was going on. I saw VMI and VPI fill this city. See they used to play games here. The city just turned over to that crowd that came here. KT: Now let's – VPI and WB: VMI KT: and VMI. WB: They played together at the stadium. KT: Virginia Tech, Virginia Polytechnic Institute. WB: Yeah. And we took all the furniture out of the lobby at the hotel to have room for them to gather around in there. They sold lunch boxes there for people going to the ball game and the players. Well, not only the players but they had a music team, you know, with the schools that came and they'd march from town out to the park, out to the Victory Stadium Park. I spent 40 years at Hotel Roanoke and saw all of it built but one little east wing. I was in charge of maintenance at the building and I had about 15 people working for me. KT: And you said 40 years? WB: And I spent 40 years there. KT: Wow. WB: I saw a cattle show with judging done at Hotel Roanoke Ballroom and we cleaned it out that day. That happened at noon the thing and I got the tarpaulin from out at the stadium and covered the ballroom floor. I got shavings and put on top of that and then we cleaned that out and got the ballroom set back up for dinner that night. So you can imagine what went on at the Hotel in those days. They don't do it today. KT: That's a lot of work. WB: I saw the farmers come to the market to sell their vegetables and things. I mean they'd come in – they'd drive a horse and wagon down this evening and sleep on the wagon and be there ready for purveyors buying on the next morning. And grocery stores then, you see, there wasn't no big grocery stores like we have today. They were all little ones like the one we had down there. And they went to the market every morning and bought fresh vegetables to sell during the day in the stores. KT: Would you say the market was bigger back then? More people? 0.34.35.2 WB: Well, it wasn't no larger area but it was a lot more going on. They'd bring trucks of watermelons and cantaloupes and you buy these great big long watermelons, $1 apiece. And so forth went on. We had a haystack. You didn't have the rolled hay like you have today. You put a pole up and put your hay on it and let it slope over and the cattle then could come in and eat the hay off around the pole and thing. You've heard about the “Little boy blue, come blow your horn. Sheeps in the meadow and the 6 �cows in the corn. Where's the little boy, he's under the haystack fast asleep.” We had a haystack in our field right here where there used to be a stable right where my house is and we had a haystack in that thing with a pole and the hay sloped down like that you see and the water would run off. It wouldn't soak into the hay. I've had an interesting life. KT: Sounds like it. And let me ask you a couple of questions, a couple more questions, about your family. You said your father worked for the railroad? WB: Yes, right. KT: Did your mother work? WB: No, she didn't work anywhere. She was a houselady. KT: Did you have brothers and sisters? WB: Yeah. KT: How many did you have? WB: Actually, it was 4 altogether but 1 was a baby and it died at 2 months old and the other was 4 months and he had cancer and a growth came out of his ear. So I had one and they lived right next door to me. KT: Your parents lived next door? WB: No, the parents were across the street then. They had passed away. See, that's where the old house was was across the street here. There again, we had – when we came out there, it was 2 rooms down and 2 rooms up. You had an outdoor john and a well pump was on the back porch. KT: Was that for the kitchen, the pump was for the kitchen? WB: It was a pump for anything you got there. In those days, you had your kitchen stove and you could pour water in the container in the stove and it'd get hot there and you could draw it off that way. But, like I say, there was just 4 rooms, 2 rooms down and 2 up. KT: Do you remember how you took a bath? WB: Well you got a tub and heated the water and got in the tub then, the wash tub. And I've got one of the old hand wash, scrub board where the – downstairs – its kinda like a corrugated type thing and I don't know if you've ever seen one or not. Have you seen one? KT: Yes, I have. WB: When my dad worked at the railroad, his overalls were all greasy and dirty and filthy and my mother had to scrub and scrub 'em. They had what they called a double boiler that – If you ever watched Andy Grffith, they sold one as an antiques to some one on their show – it was a thing about so long and about so wide and curved around the end and you put it on the stove and put your things in there and heated water and boiled 'em and it would kinda dissolve the grease out of 'em to get 'em halfway clean. KT: I bet that was hard. WB: Yeah. KT: Do you remember any technology that really kinda changed your life like a telephone or, I know you mentioned the Victrola, what do you remember as being really - ? 0.39.27.0 WB: See, my early days when we lived out there on Starkey Road out there, we didn't have a telephone, didn't know what it was. I've got a – It never has worked but I've got one of the old telephones downstairs that everybody used. My wife's father, they lived in Fincastle and over here I've got – He kept a diary from the time he was 21 up for about 40 years what he did every day. And one of 'em describes planting poles and getting telephone up to their house down there. They didn't have one to start with. WB: Wow. So KT: You rang the number you wanted to call, you went around once, twice, 2 times or 3 times to get certain – 3 rings was for so-and-so and 4 rings for another person and so forth. That's the way they 7 �worked. WB: So, not a long number. KT: Yeah. WB: Do you remember your first television? KT: The first time I saw a TV was at - This man that arranged to get this done, George Dooly (??) lived on the hill up here on Woodlawn. Before that, before we even had television, we'd go downtown to hear the ball games and sit where the courthouse is now was just a small building there and we sit on the front slope there, just on the ground and listened to – I believe Griffin was his name, Sab Griffin or something is his name, not positive if that's right. He would get these reports over what the game was doing and announce it out so we could hear what was going on. But the first TV I ever saw was up here on the hill and when this guy got one in his house. KT: What did you do in the evenings then? Did you listen to radio or did you sit on the front porch? WB: The first radio I had was a Crystal radio. When I was going to Lee Junior, and you buy a little crystal about the size of a nickel and about ½ inch thick and you had a little wire spring that you could move around over a space on that thing and had a wire coil ahead of it and you hooked it up to the bed springs on your bed and you could get a station out in Nashville and they had earphones that you could hear the sound coming over 'em. KT: Wow. And how old were you when you had that? WB: Well, I was - I guess I was in about the 5th grade, 6th grade or 7th grade because it was when I was going to Lee Junior and I went down there. See, that would make me about 12 years old. But you built it in a little cigar box you see. Cigars used to come in a little wooden box. Use thin nice metal. You'd take that box and build your works in there. KT: Do you remember when you got your first car? WB: Yes, I guess so. Way back there when my dad first got a car, he got an old Chevrolet and he kept it up here in the barn here. The back end went bad so he had - he got a Ford piece and put it in the back of it. He got stuck on the road coming up the hill over here after we had moved out here. We didn't have any car until we was living out here. He was coming back home with my brother in the car with him. And in those days, the cars didn't have a gas tank on the back. It was up in the front, right where the windshield comes down. There was a tank there and you had a cap up there. It didn't have a pump to pump the gas back, you just had the flow-back into your car. Coming up that hill, it was low on gas and ran out of gas. There he was. He couldn't turn. There wasn't room to turn around on the road. Like I said, it was a dirt road. He sent my brother and I on home to tell my mother where he was. And he backed down, just drifted backwards and back down and got turned around and backed up the hill then. And he got home and got gas later on. KT: Went home backwards. 0.44.48.4 WB: Yeah. And we'd come up the road up here and at that time, there was a cemetery up here on the hill. I don't know what ever happened to it. They didn't move graves but the guy, the man that bought it, he said that it didn't bother him. He just put a rose garden back there. I think those people are still buried there. KT: Are there houses there now? WB: Yeah. Anyway, we heard those hound dogs. There was a pack at 2 or 3 places around town around the area that people had dogs that they didn't want and they'd take 'em and dump 'em off somewhere. They were up there and they dug holes in the graveyard and they were howling. And you talk about somebody coming up the road, we came up the road. KT: Got scary I bet. WB: Yeah. KT: You said you worked for Hotel Roanoke for 40 years. Did you do anything else as well? What 8 �were your occupations? WB: The only thing else I did was I did my work on the house. I didn't actually do the entire building, would look after it and so forth. But the one across the street over here, I looked at and got 50 cents an hour for looking after it. I did most of the work on it. My daughter's house, I did the same thing there. When the daughter was born in '38, I was working at Cold Springs Creamery. It was kinda a farmer's market that came in. It was over on Loudon Avenue. In other words, these people had cows and they just kinda farmed a little dairy of their own. I had been at work and had left the filling station. I worked at the filling station 3 years and I got one $5 raise. I was making $60 when I went there and I got one $5 raise in 3 years. So I got a job at the N&W. I had worked a few times down there in the summertime. They had what they called summer jobs. You'd go down there – you used to sand for foundries. They'd come in on the cars, big hopper, open cars, kinda like a coal car. You got over there and sold that sand out of the thing. I remember one time, it was so hot and I got a headache and they had the place, shops where you'd go get a headache tablet or something, aspirin or something. I went over and got it and I couldn't find a sink or fountain, so I just eat 'em like they were. That's how bad it was hurting. (chuckling) That went on. Therefore, the railroad, and I expect its pretty much the same way. They used to – if they were busy, they'd hire you and the next month, they'd cut you off. So, I got laid off at the railroad after being there about a year and a half. Fortunately, I had worked – Gone upstairs at lunchtime, they had kinda a class that they told you you could come in and listen to the instruction and things like that. It might help you get a little better job at the railroad. I got that. As a result of that, after I got cut off, the man who taught that wrote me a nice letter as a recommendation to the Hotel Roanoke. So they were building the one that the lobby is in now, just had started that. He wrote up there and they hired me for that. So I went up there, 7 days a week at $80 a month. KT: Wow. WB: Anyway, I worked up there then. But between the time I was cut off from the railroad and before I got that was about a year so I went around and did cabinet work. I built everything in this room, everything. I didn't do that. I bought that and this table here but all the cabinets and everything. Since that time, I've learned to do the basket weaving. I've got 13 different baskets that I've made, different styles. KT: Those are impressive. WB: These over on the wall. I made the picture frames that those frames are in. KT: Where did you learn to work with wood? WB: Huh? KT: Where did you learn to work with wood? 0.50.00.3 WB: I guess my dad was a carpenter you see, and he give us instructions. So working with him got that straightened away. That's where I learned so I could build the house. When we bought over there, later on, he built a house out here on the front of this highway, close to Woodlawn. I helped on that of course. I remember later on, we tore the old house down and built a garage behind out of it. Poured the foundation, you pour the cement slab around the thing to put your framing up off the ground a little bit. I was driving nails and bang, bang, bang and hit my thumb. From then on, I had to hold my nails with these 2 fingers. KT: Did it break it? WB: Yeah. KT: Oh goodness. WB: But I did chair weaving. KT: Let me see. WB: And I've got something in the other room. I'll take you in there to show you if you want to see it. KT: So, is that your hobby? 9 �WB: I just picked that up. I found out they did a class over in the old Ogden School I was telling you about, where I started school. I learned to do some of the baskets. I got a book with some in it – I had the ability to take it out of the book and put it together to do something with it. Most of these. I made me a template to make 'em by. When Ed (??) did one, he just had the big wide spaces and put 'em in – ribs they call 'em going around. They were just loose so I learned to take me cardboard and make my template to shape I wanted it to be and strapped it in there and I used these little wire ties that you get off of milk, bread and stuff and tied 'em in there. So, it helt 'em in place. KT: So you came up with your own system. WB: I have that ability just like my walker there. If you notice the ledge laying on top. If you go to the refrigerator, you can't carry anything and use the walker. So, I made that top there and its got two screws and two rubber bands there. You see the green on the front? KT: Mm mm. WB: All I did to hold it in place is put two screws in that thing. I'll show it to you when you get a little closer – And wrapped it around there and I can take it off and fold that walker up then and take it anywhere I want to. KT: But it won't move. WB: So I have that ability to see possibilities of things you can do. KT: That's a good idea. WB: Its just doing things that you want to do and so forth. KT: So let me ask, since we're talking about your ability, can we talk a little bit about the house? When did you say you built the house? WB: I told you I built the main house in '36 and then the addition in '52. KT: I don't think we said it on tape but how much did it cost for you to build? WB: I owed $2,000 on it when I got through. That included everything I spent. And, of course, things were much cheaper then than what they are today. KT: And we have a newspaper clipping. WB: Do what? KT: You have a newspaper article that talks about the house. WB: That's what this was here. Is that it? I believe it was it. Yeah, that's it, yeah. KT: OK. And we'll have that included. WB: Yeah, that's it. KT: So is there anything you can think about that maybe we have forgotten to talk about or that comes to mind? WB: Well, I don't know. Like I said, so much has happened in my lifetime. Just like this road out here that we got opened and I was telling you about the guy would get stuck in the mud. Feguson who had that big truck as I told you is over at the museum. He'd get mad at the people down the road so he'd go over there and drag it a tree or something across the road and stock it up. So they finally got a mail route out of it and then, of course, he couldn't do it because the federal government would be on him. KT: That was nasty tricks. I know its hard to fit everything into like an hour. WB: Something is always going on in my days. KT: For now, we're gonna stop the interview but this has been WB: Is this kinda what you was really wanting? KT: Yeah, absolutely. And this was Mr. Walter Melvin Bryant at 2702 Brambleton Avenue. WB: What will they do? You wanna cut it loose? KT: Yeah, I'll stop it. 10 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2654/Mr._Bryant.JPG 68e4da1627d651d2b4d79c9ffac75e5b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2654/MB_1.0_GRANDIN_CT._ARTICLE.PDF e7f35aab5616dad22921df865718212f PDF Text Text AREA COURT THEGRANDIN Melvin Bryant by: Walter of The first development the Grandin Court area was the Weaver Heights section. This sectionwas boundedby TillettRoad,BarhamRoad,Livingston Roadand WeaverRoad. Lotswere facing both sides of these roads. Access of was by way of GillespieRoadfrom GrandinRoadto the intersection Weaver end of LivingstonRoad led to a narrowcountry and Tillett Roads. The west road,now calledSpringRoad. This countryroadwas the accessto what is now Avenue. The firm of by Corbieshaw way of the 27AOblock of now Sweetbrier Weaverand Tillettwerethe developers. by The next development Weaver and Tillett was the GrandinCourt section. acrefarm ownedby Mr. J.B. Thompson.This sectionstartedat This was a4O Road. lt joinedWeaver Avenueto Livingston Roadand alongGilford Grandin Road. The barnand homefacedGrandin on Heights the west. Mr.Thompson's other buildingswere in the rear of the home about where MontvaleRoad well on operated Avenue. His watersupplywas a windmill Guilford intersects Avenue. He laterbuilt a brick the northwest cornerof TillettRoadand Guilford on GuilfordAvenuebetweenLoftonand Livingston.His framehomestill home Avenue. to standsand was turned90 degrees face Guilford also by Weaverand Tillettwas the GrandinCourtAnnex. The nextdevelopment This was a 120 acre farm and was an extensionof the south boundaryof Courtsections.The west sidewas alongthe and the Grandin WeaverHeights Avenueand Creston countryroad,now knownas SpringRoadto and including Park. WrightRoadwas anothercountryroad the farm homelocatedin Fishburn Bent MountainRoad. FishburnPark was originallyWeaver for accessto the Park. The barnwas locatedon the parkinglot. Waterfor the homewas from a downthe hillfromthe housewherefor sometimea drinking largespringlocated fountainwas located. lt was pumpedto a springhousenearthe eastend of the givinga continuous flow for the coolingof milk houseby a ram (no electricity) donatedland on the eastend and the name and otherfoods. LaterMr. Fishburn Park. to Fishburn was changed Henry. area,ownedby Randolph was the Corbieshaw developed Othersections Clinic. lt wentto the top of the hill His homewas the housebehindBrambleton to blockof Sweetbriar, the countyline on the west and alongOak fromthe 27OA Creston the north. The next area was Col. Jim Wood'sproperty. This was the SpringValleyarea property that the GrandinCourtSchoolis and was from Oak Crest including withthe roadsbeingextended. section the located joining WeaverHeights on, �Avenuewas Avenueand Montgomery The log homeon the cornerof Woodlawn for one of the developers his home. lt is uniquein thatthe builtby Mr. Weaver, logs are verticalratherthan horizontal. Somemay knowthat the woodedland and Life to Avenueand extending the Shenandoah property ta-ing Montgomery of the map Avenueis shownon the original goingbackto the lotsfacingOregon that park. lf this is the casetheremightbe something couldbe as subdivision a donefor futureuse of the property. of Oneof the uniqueremembrances the earlydaysof this areawas a shuttlebus car at BrandonRoadand GrandinRoad. The round that met everyotherstreet Avenue trip was from the end of the streetcar line to the cornerof Woodlawn Road. and Spring My Father'spropertyjoined GrandinCourt Annex on the East, Jim Wood on Henryon Southand West. LaternamedGrandView. He northand Randolph to Ave.from Spessard Brambleton purchased landfromthe centerof Woodlawn to Woodlawn what is now and gave 1t2of Roadrightof way in orderto continue Ave. Brambleton witha muleteamand a of I lncidentally,helpedgradethat extension Woodlawn up development, Fleetwood, drag scoop,this gave a road into the Corbieshaw a right on Sweetbriar,thru the Yost and D.B. Ferguson left on Ashby to was laterBrambleton properties what is now CaveSpringCorners.Sometime to with to builtfrom Rosewood it's intersection SpringRoad. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2654/MB_3.0_RKE_TIMES_1-22-2004.PDF 19bba78af7caa76445032e5506780d31 PDF Text Text E&==*eg, jan*ery f?, 2r-':s:i -.: --iF * -:- *:-. -- - = =E* €: L|I|I)5FY WRAY I I?E R€nd(c litm Mel Bryant,a retired Hotel Roanoke maintenanceengineer,built his housein 1936 before BrambletonAve. existed. Here, he holds a pho. World-Newsarticle about his house, tocopy of a Roanoke Times have changed rabhitfrom huntingdays Roanoke for man The Brvants'home nearlv u,as finished rl,'hen u'as nearly finished when it was it featured ll, featured a ]uly ll, 1936, in issue The Roanoke s u e o f in Tahfuly R o 1936,kisof e ano e World-Nt-ws. World-Nervs. The couple, according tsryant, 92, started building his brrickhouse in the Grandin i ind=ei;.'r.; @ r+3 no k€.!lor, ! r;17 Court area with his wife, Mary 3ryaat, in 19-rfr. The ItI*l Bryant rememtrgrs ccuple rrrei E'hgn Mary Bryhr.r*ting rabbit-" in the rvr;ods ar.ltlvas a Rurse and L4el Bry* l r a u n d h i s h . r u s e b e f u r e :lrlt :€as in thc hcspital tbr B r s m b i e t r : n A v e n u r - r + ' r s luI-.p=ndiciti-q.rlnstructed. \ 1 * ' i t hh c r . ' . c r ' f i fr n o i ' l a y i '' " \ U e c n i o i ' e d g t ' r t l r l s { } t l i i*g the brick and il*irrg rhe . l n t i t h a s i n g r a h h i t s . "h e s r i d . tl+ctrical -,+ir!r:g and plaster= Ti-rC=;;, a bus;=' rrl:rd, * irg, the Frvl*rs dici ali the ,-hr-tt'h .rni'li-.l i !-rrri :' iu.;r'rh:rr"r - - . t c i i : r l i i t i r c i r l i * u s e repiacr'ii ihe rr:,c'i=,.i err--as :l:e:l:sciv=S. 'il'.; lh:i i;i;=c surrr:u=dr-,.J ' . i i , Jr i i t i i c c i c r , t ' r 1 ' iiri.; r n t ' = : l + s t h s . ' e ' . r i E r t = * . : i ; r ihinr:-" ivtel iiryant =t=id. 'i-iri.' i]r.-,rr;=. Erlr'aca*=' hc;tit .*'a= 3y Li*d+ey lYray to thc article, drew theil or*'n plans, trorrowed a neighbor's mule to earry supplies and *btained most of their lumber at lot'al sarvmills. Thcy rcnted a concrete mixer lor the lbundation, and used old nelvsFaper mat-c- discarderi d'tcr th*v u'rre used as firrnrs ibr metal plates - betrveen the rvocd tiaming and brick casiag oithe hi,ruse. Br'*.ani.''\'h(i '*i..rs born in NI-irtinsvilL:lr.l grtrv up in ' Roanoke, grarir-:arc,J irom lcl'lerson liigh Schcct i. !93i. Aitcr e..--rkiag ar a filling station on Patterson Avenue for three years, he began worl as a maintenance engineer al Hotel Roanoke in 1937. lllorking seven days ; week, Bryant earned $8O : month. His duties includec e'-erything from making iee tc setting up Christmas trecs and he recalled onc tim( rvhcn he had to tend to a bro. ken chandelier that almosr fcll trcm the eeilin*e. "It was quite an operatioir,' he saiii oi takine dorn tht iight tixturc picce-hy piccc. Er-vant att=eheri arr antenRi to thc tcp of l_ris house so tha, he cauld receive =ignai=on : rvalkie-taikic irrm thr- hr,rte SeeTIMES,13 �s 4 NEIGHEQRS Thursday, January 22, 2OO4 SOUTH 13 6Ican hardly ilMEs= find myway johs around no\M,' Bryant said FBOM5 when there were mainte- game where Walton's chil- remain in the house while nance emergencies suchas ilren and Bryant's sreat- making changes such as addthe chandelier problem - ,frandchildrenwere pi-avins. ing more electricaloutlets. that occurredin the middle of / FIeinvited Bryant to drehotdl After triple-bypass surgery the night. \.to meetthe eirgineerinc teaflr in November, Bryant still A Chrysler show in 1956 anlilsaid it's beln greaito lis- lives in the housethat he and and a cattleshowin the hotel ten to Bryant'sst6riesabout his wife - who died in 1994 bdlroom are emongthe other the hotelio hear how thinss built nearly 70 years ago. hotel eventsthat standout iri havechanged over the veari. Thouglrhe doesn'tiikehavi-ng Bry__ant'smind. "t can fi-ardlyfind my way to wait to make a turn onto "He has so many fond alound now,',bryant siid oi Brambleton,Bryant said he's memories an{ g passionfor the changesthat have been glad to still be living in the the hotel,"saidGatyltlalton, madeto Hotel Roanoke since house and to have had the area vice presidenfand gen- he retired. \ opportunity to watch eral manager of Hotel Bryant also changed the Roanoke'shistory fusthand Roanoke and Conference way-his own house-looked - both aroundhis houseand Center. whbn he remodeledin tbe at Hotel Roanoke over the Walton, who has been at lg50s.Movingamanressfrom years. Hotel Roanokefor about l0 room to rod'm, he said, al"Thrngs chonge," he said. years,met Bryant at a softball lowed him and his wife to "It's interesting;." Becau HAVEYOUIIEARD? Fio*t 5 e MILITARY n Alr Force2nd Lt. Msrk Bschy,son of phll andMary Buchyol Hanglng Rock, graduated has in thetop t5 percentof hlsT-llettrainlng classandhasrecetved pllot'Jwlngsat l.aughfin hls Alr ForceBaseln DelRlo,Texas. wlll now traln to pllot the USnf C.fZ alrcraft out of McChord He AFBln Seattle.Buchygraduated from Roanoke CathollcSchoolIn 1992and the Unlverelty of Virginla 20O2, In d h It o Mark Buchy RArrrcERS: pfOgfAm COVefS PafkS fiveSOLrequirements FROMT they will be learning more about in the coming week{, Manns said. "I love the way he brings the science to life with the kids,o she said. The National Park Service has formed partnerships with give presentations in every from topics such as habitats classroom at those schools. to the geology of the Blue Some teachers request the Ridge Parkway, all emphasize program on an individual ba- park preservation. *This is their environment. sis. Either way, the program is free and datcs ete eeheduled This is the area they live in," oo a frst-come, first-served said lohn Fltrtrfry, East Sabasis. Wray said he is booked lem Elementary principal..'I at leastthreeotherRoanoke for therestsf thisschool year. think it's a goodopportuniry Valley elementaryschools, Thougheachgradelevel for the kids to get a little ensuringthat park rangers hasa different lesson, ranging closer nature." to � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2654/MB_4.0_RKE_TIMES_7-1936_.PDF a34298a2089247d4952080e5a6db8208 PDF Text Text fin A[I Rfi Statlon AtterdsDt eld urty aDd lf,QrYtD BryrEt, ot coe woodlerq ivcBqrr Olrtrdtn Court, Eo r couPlr ot youagstril rho rt8?trd Erlrtcd lllo tlltecu Clty r cluoon rny rul fry o9r o,l wry Tblcb ?'bs set r lett r d.GBt ol hr sou rlUllcul' rlr0 thl 8on: LE trvc uqr-ol thrGa r r-gat-_rfEi a rsmiule tLrt buddGd eAoF Uolvln, r llllt[g atluos r.ttcEEant, tgar coDyulrclns h r locrl horpltfl lroIn BD opdatton, rnd tlrry Btr hl| Dursc, No-p tb.y'rc butlCln3 a boE!. buf -pbnraa. Iog.rD-t'bc-{t|tr}-ra*-ot-tr! Iut rd of tultilag Dlru! ovsr to r gtrtrictor rDd t lUBg hh to rttrt thcy 'd drse up tlofr- own I !orl, -'ndllb-biii'r mulo, :rlei l{iioesit lml- rtartcd bulldbg a houlc ot tbrlr I t o lD thGlr rprrc tl&c. lt J! r btlcl bolrc, lust scro|. [,b!, troD Ualyln'| trghot'r lrona, :b* tbcy hopc to lravc lt t€sdy to lDd lc( tcrld tb ItevIl Eovt tEco!d! haBds to tho lorct tl ald cqu brldtr : lINd6 c tb! ctt! r80ll lato by cilly tall. Altbougb thcy'ro dolDg rcEGthrpt coSl hqsa doo! rlncc rUC- ttlrt &* AsollelDi a8ily trlobccrs 29,- th!rlt6 rDddEys sbsrt ho66 outrclcct€d a h€wsd r ol tb6 ;t0 rr.y rlcBrd lurpr[sd ysltcraor forcct,dt rEooD. who!, lstftert cry vl! nic; lhoYn l[ tbelr work, proPrt: 6tA. r d Tbc I rbarc qulr.d, rttr.Bt t try. T objccte( rpaq la trock .i UoDEl. .F.rhr! I.lndr aJlL Iliy dr.e up rhG Dlrn! tosrthGr BDd-brd llcLfln'3 tather, vho Jurt rbout buUt bk owD boEs, filv! lln.t sP0ils0n$ ilAtllltD Epproerl to tba Pto.Er l!od, s tecbnlloEG cqt. ltlldpolEt. _l4clvlD bclpcd when hLt latbc! bullt hb bomr, a!.1 rdmlttod. lpa! hlr oDIy CI3bot, hc ln tbc courtructlon tl€ld. Dcrltac! Wltb tlr3 exceptlou o! th€ brlclpl{t6rlag. vorh, GlectrlcBl wlrltrg eDd tbc two b.wc doD. tult rbout "cvory oI -rYorI" ?brt ItcI werl FOR APPE IHIAIRI OF ffR0t| I lsto coDttructloE, of tba boDlc. 6tlll r Epod deal to clo bctotc tbs c. E, houac ls reldy lor oscuPrllcY, tba brrd prrt. lt ovrt. ..1-- l+ tt L - ha! Ald Att+r L..* a!t-l ra+b€an Jrtlo lotr plan! thc P.!s of ^, ol luE." drswD up, s muls ltoE ldelYlD. borrsr€d n lSbbo!, ilont sltb, r d tbe eDd st|rhq dlSglug lle worlcd agq sbout tbreo Eotrtbs he "gat df" evcry altarloon attrr statlon. lrom the tluh8 tponrorr ErDc?J The bNsenenr lr 32 by 36 feet, and llvo (€61 d6dp.--ItFaEE- lEtc b'rboul ltcElrccts wbllo rtlgglng, Bnd hBd to u8c Afl€r t}le rtlcf,! ol dyDaEttr. ocntlfo bsseEeEt was dug, be relrt€d a coD' cou[try grrrdtlls, good btt thct brlck ueeded alter ih! Melvhr &nrl hti trBmlng. A! Eoo[ t! the brlck brtd€ erectedl Robsrt Portcrficld se8 Furchs.lldlrector o! the Ba:ter dlrtttlg roorsr kttcbcn,l tlta F Brrt[r'Itrrltcrl gaturdev at thc Dlrbt. Itrurtc. it witl bc thr !r! lnt€atre tlrs Btladwry ProductloD. ol dl Actdcmy tppc.nuccl ir. .r.-JL tbrc! r. Et ot the Bart€r Tbeatro plsyerl ln Esluo-c, "-i row, -"'a - -- '- | towl ot outatalChl -hsvr pl|yr4 ln ouultrqdhS the! Hrr Yorl, rud other Pllcel. lHlr Yorl' rrrd oth€ Dlrce!. ud lfty Ptr I oonrtart otrculrtto PlsYr.1[ B?lw?cE :tTt#"tiTf tt?ii"HT,"i*1ft ol I lm'**",tn.?,tyt,HT*H".* "'liilcrlus I rsns. T-'g:;:"ii' rncnleJl bduse wtll hrv€ a The :".::1:PJE-l=to-',,'.:i':o:l:-11-:'11"T?,-11'-1dr"t--!.b:-.1 & ttrePtsB, by t. Wrll D, C, .#l*JH[,gJs .i:'k'iPlr,l|]:":i" Coftl i9Bhi, ' YErl (Wc hrd tlia tlghtr turDsd o! thc'n{ crr, c giroup o! Frollrrrotrrl t'tth ol pcrfor- tlnd"r lurDlpc! ol the nomoke I rlttor, A Club, th. Ef,lt4r Countf WoEru'l lr0 so-caucd blcrur|l FoulFwho o. w, thcl! ptrfofinqlcer Bt Ab.lr8dor__ll?l arJ ilt ixiuan--seo tor _Boodt- wul -_Pruentl i;g-16': alq "aury tbe Dcad" u=.:ldav_ IsE J.as lllarDooE riteraooo dic -!ury I Ablngdon, and T. J. llush€s, Jr waecorn-l(rtguilEiTE'm--enbeii----o(rbects.E tb6 herr tJrs coBlng lonourcpr:TT lrinroon wcr6 I'olr"y[is e.t todry. . l;.]tfi; end "wc Eaved ol Ttrr aEouEt PBy." oui, and aes tlgured th6 fwo perforBanoe! Wlll Be lRornor, Hlr wll Oiven At Acedemy of Mu- lurlvgl frcC 1 ric lfert teturday. Ehlcld,r, e^--.--. r*-r,..blugr ;:':il.i;:;"l1iiltotty : :::;.-.ff--'-J-l ---.--'.;*-:-#.-^I--l :. I.-'*:"..:Tilll I utlar racrtrr rtouttd AD|l rr lo{a!.il - I ln Everr �T'eii,jt'iiii."l-iLtr"t.orr"o.-l-ffi||Effi||.":rEtrvrgc||-9g!*.t-oo|;il;i Givel lt Aoadeny of Hu- ri"'eu;orli'o;;-*.i-iE-r--iir=lt@ Etrrted dlEgihg try ' llrsd llabout tbreG Eoatbs r (y. ll rvery |tternoou artor bc "8ot !::\-'-r--3a:-::ie7' I tf,rr of Sponrorr conlna l1',*,* li;;i_fq Pfflor- .;-=:;c.....=E'E-.:=.-:''@,'%|ErE3er.Eerno'IuG-s!ci_EGd_rGri Tbo bc*Eeat !r 92 by 8€ f Ebut tlve tccr .lEGg. -Ift ra[ fl ttcElrocf rbnc dlEglug, and bad to lttsr ths aeatl?O rttcr! ol .tyn4rElt. brothcr DoureifTlr*IouD.alt Itro.i of tbe luEbcr war o1 .nuntw rrflrallls ond "wG lorthlc{untry 6Eflalll8, end "wi saved t Tbt.aEouD? ol Tbr.aEouDt ot riy." r..altood blt thit tiy." too.l Dlt brlck De.ded w.. tlgured out, anl Bfter Mclvtlr tnd hls brlde erected Gd today. BrY, rurplcu ItDdrr r I Cordlhr EtoBsotelrbtar,-t tho ot - E I t - - - - Iof lxcaaDSBq y'*:-'l 5ffif[r lnr to Bcxt Etlltuflne-raf VlncgBr Ttec" "Thc ritarnoon a-:rd"gurv ths D.ad" nert'lf,il o{l--+: EaturdeyDtBht, st-tbE Academy ' rnHlut+it:*tl,:=:"f*";.':t*!**l*fri""$i-Fris-trJ'i:ltE iF'*{J*v.v,i";i:tlr$: '- 'vl.d hllFk mr<aht .n i.yjl"du"Ti:iJili.ifi."-:#:ill"8fft|;;i1;i".]iji'iiffE'.#"ftiil'HfllreIJlzu.y.r];"ux'"Ttf''I l*,--'""1-turtatt vtrtng. lrrert eatiuaiy at tLC Acedemy ol }.*sri1--'.-.-iiir;*.t}r!bt.|ti*i'-[i-tuis*tri-rii'"]i;-;6i:|.ecueiffi'|I-"-lr.":I'f,1."1b.$l1"lT:.HlI".ill'n: $,*},l,{::t :mllfli$:".ffi1i,*.*:,-"iffi1;#:id;.JJ"il*tF"f,""lJ,lt"!H-fT,-,1 ;Tj f*,JT*fn"',H":g t",S:}g 'TillffiJ'i"d:I,'-ii]g_fF f":l'"{: ffii[ *fr'"ii:'T'i-t?"il;,1:,1"Ll":mf,"'roo'"X1"*ll?',?h*"iill,"luf'LliH'J1""'9","'i"*l i:"i-t'trllt$* rb$t lhElb!' thr hon.,.r.-"ltirvcr HlHr;f.*;ltf".,["g;i.'6;-etii:l"f,ili"i!."Hf"no.gr:F..J-1 :H:litilg"'ffil;,:*r"erTT"ff-litli."l,ffi"ff"iT,#1';'ffHri oq'l tnto oD,clr!86 room.-rc iut trr leateal rL?l yttb.qtlr6plaE€,dt!,lDsroo|a,r:ttcnca,linJ nr".rvsy-FroducrroE o1 irwrnlHugber rilt pToa-r"-;Til-tt;;l**S--:tP:?g-Ab-lngdo& ,f,ijl _otff*llg ?oog, twol4cro6_nr enalsulw;l-'s-utr-tni rrrc" io rtrsc rhrl'rr;', to ba or'tcrid rrarr rj-tucJ-riill*j,:":^1"--I.T5*--ri i?-'.ii'i?"'".$:$#ll$jl '"'' 'i$*Hii'lrs$tf.i-q#fl|clilAll0fil|ty IL l_LtIlu D Lffi Ltltl Ir#*q"F*s*H$ ll'i#.nil,"g-H'1',.H?&"'-tt;lllll|.ulll._u .lull I nl FullllLl llifl.ilfl:f,ft::,,1:::b,ii.":i{:l{i" ,b'vx'a bceq mmnm usee tulttD l$ '-rill Tha borEe, lncldcltt Set.treeu t .--:;l lttrulst€d. iiii"il gc t1g-g1!-rrcj -qyt' "":#irl SUFF[RI|\|0 T0 l$.*j.i#id1"l''.Hf Ft0[|I DRAFT I A$l{tD ,s:r*i'&'r""**'*' Betrl plrto! wlth whlch tl Ness tE prhted. Molvln doe8 most ol tbc '.fJl place vbuo he drlves tq. 'lotrt F r;l;lcaulEt-ol -l;f lor the ths lrsBh3 ^,iial trcen tbs rooEr bav6 stnt0tjsTl|il0 Ul!!|4il[tsl $Fiffil*l $t0ljt{Dl :[,;ffi|*t* br playcd lu cvcry t HB l[ At[crtcr' rsC tUur Gtleourr8Q tht iPtrtt of rrl n"or tbBl lta prndos rrvil;;] lta ptndosrrrnar lavo tu.i-tEnlD^---r-^ ,.r..-! .^---.-, ^-lrr^-----rD^-rr r!-!r rruokldltr toluearor"s.wourd r----r-l.yl":91.T*.:-tog,.l,:l*-:1.-tl||l![b Limil bdor. .!{ -ffti.$;!r#l*'"1[l.lH#..1 I:"!!l"t'"ke__oirlleported iuwl EaveBhotseu at gUt. or ontui'trieiror ths parkiuseudcurb Autolarteucq putr to lottru tbe wlE4owryuro Bri.rotns ono. *$I ,"lXt;l Eort I tou Forge. l+Tif?ltTlfllllf;.m.;*i,?l - nobileEorns. g,^_40.11r_-1.ff llHi In ".:.r.-.:.tirsp:rf-{ 'vlBcse!,l:1,--1"' liton tb' -tljjl"tptov, i;ti'-rili.rie-Ii-.oa o"t iio-ia$..;yf -_ourtr" erty co'ocnylstcrday di:ilif;Jii;iiTliri'ii".Tf&"S y."t *,*, r,.,t,,r. ,"*r",).-l- - e*y cauDcr ra"y jt r;i;lifjii;#il?1";Yj#* ;t _"iiii:l l**i.,i requcsted R. C. 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L-rlll Lrcr rr*r -lFrnr i!:-{i!1 lrt .- l:-.f .l*f| P- TIAtF-a.-!o-i--r ^!:I iiioff ii"iiirrrT"r6i. -:l- I -Y.'ll fto nann'otsrtYoErll Tlro noiln-ots iYoiouf | clu\ clu\ Juntorl l*!llfro,Tiii.n _.1 --o- l- st .i, *nrrtrr rrr..tnt u url olttrr *rr. s. rry$. l-iitr*l.c'r � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Walter Melvin Bryant Subject The topic of the resource Grandin Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Walter Melvin Bryant Interviewer: Kellie Thomas Date: 20 March 2007 Location: Private residence of Walter Bryant Total Duration: 55:52 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 March 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Walter Bryant; Kellie Thomas; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BryantWalter https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2653/Helen_Davis_Evelyn_Bethel_[compressed].mp3 50d793d25e3255257a2880f3d0e674f7 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2653/Bethel-Davis.pdf a074c0f086d203616f5ab2ecbc99330b PDF Text Text Interviewee: Helen Davis & Evelyn Bethel Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Andrew Sterling CL: My name is Carla Lewis and I am the Gainsboro Branch Manager. Today is March 15, 2007. I will be interviewing Evelyn Bethel and Miss Helen Davis. I will start with either one of you young ladies. When and where were you born? HD: I was born on Patton Avenue Northwest, April 10, 1928. EB: And I was born June 5, 1933, after my parents had moved to Patton Avenue Northeast which is currently the street that we live on. CL: Tell me about your parents. EB: As I remember my parents, they were very good parents. My father worked for the Roanoke Hardware and my mother worked at Rathskeller Restaurant and later on she did private household work. CL: Miss Davis, tell me about the brothers and sisters that you have. HD: We had 5 brothers, 2 of them are deceased and it was 7 of us, 5 boys and 2 girls, the two of us. One brother is living in Salem, Virginia, in Big Hill and the other two are living in Washington D.C. CL: Can you tell me the names of your brothers that you are talking about? HD: Herbert Davis, he lives in Big Hill. Clarence Davis, Curtis Davis, they live in Washington D.C. James Davis and Roy Davis are deceased. CL: Did you have extended family living with you or nearby when you grew up on Patton Avenue? EB: As I recall, we didn't have any extended family living with us on a permanent basis but my grandmother came down occasionally and she lived with us. I don't recall any extended family. CL: No aunts, uncles? EB: No. CL: Describe your home life. For instance, did you gather around the radio in the afternoons or do you remember having your first telephone. HD: We gathered around to listen to The Shadow. (laughing) “What evil works in the hearts of men.” Of course, there was Joe Lewis. He was on the radio and we were all excited about that. EB: And we listed to the opera that came on on Saturdays. We always listened to that. I didn't quite understand the language but the music was so beautiful. I remember that. CL: Can you remember when you got your first telephone and did you have party lines or did you have just the one line coming into your home? EB: We had the one line. Our telephone number was 4 digits, 8-2-6-2. HD: That's right. EB: And it was a private line. We didn't have a party line. At that time, people had gossip benches (laughing) because they had one telephone and it was stationary and our gossip bench was located in the hallway which was readily accessible to all rooms in the house. CL: What was a gossip bench? EB: Its a long chair and it has a armrest and a little table where you could put the telephone and that's where the telephone was and a pad. And it had room under the table to put the telephone book. Telephone books were very skinny then because not too many people had them. CL: What kind of activities did you participate in? EB: Before we leave the telephone, I have one incident. I was listening to the radio and it was some sort of quiz. I heard it and ran to the telephone and I was the first person to win the prize. I can't remember what the prize was but I was very excited about that. So, the telephone was a very good instrument that people used in those days. More so than a cell phone. 0.05.01.7 1 �CL: OK. What kind of activities did you two ladies participate in? HD: We had the YWCA down on Commonwealth. EB: Yeah, they called it Commonwealth. HD: At that time it was Walker. It was very nice. The ladies taught us etiquette, how to do things, the proper way to do speak and dress. It was very interesting. We need that today. EB: In addition to that, we participated or went to the basketball games and we had activities and we had activities. I can remember us jumping rope. They call it now Dutch I think, Double Dutch. That was fun. And during the other holidays, we had activities here at the library especially for Halloween. They had activities here, bobbing the apple. They had greasing the pole where the young men would try to climb up the pole and get the gift. Those were some activities that we engaged in. And, of course, for Christmas and the other holidays, we had neighborhood sing-a-longs out there. Getting back to Halloween, speaking of mischievous things, we got soap and we would put it on people's windows. That was the biggest mischief we had then was getting soap and marking people's windows. CL: Were they the windows of people who did not give you candy or were they just -? EB: They were just people and especially the Mosey's (??) store because they had the wider windows. We enjoyed that. (laughing) I don't see that it was anything detrimental because the next day, all they had to do was go out there and clean the windows. CL: Do either of you remember sitting on the front porch, talking to neighbors after dinner, sharing the evening with people going by or correcting children as they walked by your porch? HD: We played with the children in the neighborhood. We would sit in front of 19 Patton and we always thought – they said there were ghosts up on the Catholic (all laughing) and we would walk around it in the dark and my brothers would leave me. I would start crying but we didn't ever have any ghosts up there. But we would tell all sorts of tales. And we played pick up sticks and that's an interesting game. Kids don't do that anymore. And checkers. EB: Monopoly. HD: Yeah, we had that Old Maid game, card game. Nobody wanted to be the old maid. CL: Chinese Checkers. HD: Yeah, Chinese Checkers. (spoken simultaneously with EB) EB: We had a lot of games that required thinking and some sort of dexterity with your fingers and it was just fun. I enjoyed it. And one thing we must not forget is the Claytor property. We would go up there and play in their yard and roll down the hill. Go down the hill, jump up, go up again, just roll down the hill. That was a lot of fun. And it was also fun looking at their fish pond. They had a beautiful fish pond with goldfish and other things in it. We used to like to look at that. HD: And they had a huge attic and we would go up there and Miss Claytor would let us skate. It was huge. It was so much fun. We really had fun. And one game that's still around is Monopoly. EB: Yes, Monopoly is still around. HD: We played that. That's the only one that I can recall seeing recently. EB: Chinese Checkers. HD: Yeah, Chinese Checkers and the pick up sticks. And the little boys, they had the red wagons and the girls had the dolls but I never was a doll favorite but we just played and made little bracelets out of the flowers and the necklaces. We would do those types of things. CL: What family stories were passed down from one generation to the next generation and did you hear stories about military or slavery or recipes or just anything that was passed down to your generation and then you continue to pass it to your children, nieces and nephews? 0.10.07.8 EB: I don't recall any stories about slavery. I can recall that my father spoke – Its amazing when you're young, you don't pay any attention to your parents but, one year, when my husband and I came to visit, and we wanted to go to the movie and it was snowing and daddy wouldn't let us go. He said, 2 �“Don't you go out there. You'll fall and hurt yourself.”. I thought to myself, “Daddy, we're grown. We'll take care of ourselves.”. I looked at my husband and he looked at me and we stayed at home. (all laughing) And that turned out to be a very informative and lovely evening because my dad told me how he used to work for the circus. And how they would get on the train and go from one city to the other and what his duties were with the circus. Of course, I knew that he always worked for Roanoke Hardware and that's about the most that I can remember. My mother worked for Rathskeller Restaurant that used to be on Jefferson Street. And when they closed, she started doing private household work. HD: Plus she had 7 of us. (both laughing) We were all very happy. We felt loved. EB: The things I can recall, a few – I can't bring them to mind right now about Grannies up in Dublin when Grannie lived right near the railroad tracks. HD: I don't know any stories. EB: I don't either. I can't recall 'em. We thought that was a dark house. (both laughing) But it was fun. I can't recall any stories. CL: That's OK. You have probably hit on this before but what is your fondest memory of childhood? The very one that sticks out that you can tell us about right here and now without thinking about it. What is your fondest memory of childhood. You said rolling down the hill, but do you have - ? EB: Probably Vacation Bible School. That was at First Baptist Church and we were close to it so that was no problem getting to it. That would be one. I guess the very fondest memory would be this library. Coming up here and talking with Mrs. Mitchell and Mrs. Lee. And this was always a place we could come and I had a vivid imagination so I loved to read. And I could just see myself floating around the places that I read about. So I think that would be my very, very fondest memory. CL: OK. Miss Davis? HD: I just always thought about the Claytor Complex I guess. Dr. J.B. Claytor was there and he was such a fine doctor. And I can recall that he was just a wonderful person. I always admired him and they had the drug store there and really whatever you wanted was in that complex and it was just really nice. It was a special place for me. I loved that drug store. EB: I would say one of the reasons why it was so fond, is that that was our McDonald's. It was a drug store and they had the booths there with the sodas and ice cream sodas, with your little boyfriend or girlfriend, you could go up there and sit in the booth. HD: I loved it. EB: I don't know what young people talked about but we talked. (all laughing) And it was fun. And, of course, that was right across from the library. HD: Yeah. CL: What chores did you have to do when you were younger? HD: I know the one I dreaded was washing those jars for canning. You know momma canned. EB: What did she can? Cherries. HD: We had to wash those bottles, those jars. It tastes good in the wintertime but in the summer it wasn't any fun. We had to wash those bottles. That's what I hated. (both laughing) I don't know what you hated but I didn't like washing those jars. CL: Evelyn? 0.14.58.3 EB: I just hate housework period. (both laughing) I hated washing dishes and pots and pans. I can remember one night, I was in there flinging those pots around. My mother said, “Gal, if you don't stop that noise, I'm coming in there to get you.”. (both laughing) And of course, I stopped the noise but I hated it. Still hate it. CL: Describe your house for us. Was it a brick house? Was it a single story house? Did you have a garden outside? And I know you had a front porch so, describe in detail your house for us. EB: Its a single story house, wood with a front porch. We had a back porch. At the beginning, we did 3 �not have an indoor bathroom. Our bathroom was outside. I forget what you call 'em now. HD: Outhouse. EB: Yeah, outhouse. (both laughing) But eventually, we did get a bathroom with a tub, shower, commode, sink and so forth. And when that was done, we enclosed the back porch. Before it was enclosed, - no, that happened after it was enclosed – we had a coal stove in the kitchen, a dining room and a bedroom. And we had a hallway, a bedroom on one side and a living room on the other. I think that HD: The living room was used for a bedroom. EB: Yeah. With all the children, you can imagine how it was. But with me being the youngest (laughing) I had a cot out on the back porch and I just loved it. (both laughing) I had my own little room. It was an Army cot. I just loved it. We talked about it not long ago. HD: Mm mm. EB: And then there was the kitchen and we had a basement where coal was stored and momma stored her canned goods down there. HD: There was a trapdoor in the kitchen that you could go down in the basement. EB: Right. Outside, we had two cherry trees in the yard. We had HD: Black Hearts. EB: Black Hearts on one side and the tiny HD: Sweethearts. EB: Sweethearts on the other side. HD: We had a grape arbor. EB: Yeah. HD: And a peach tree in the back. EB: Right, and a strawberry patch. We had all of that and it was so good. HD: It sure was. EB: Did you say grape vine? HD: Yeah, grape arbor. CL: Did you can food from each of those trees for the winter? HD: Momma did. That's why I had to wash those jars. (both laughing) EB: I don't recall washing any jars. HD: That was my job. (both laughing) EB: I must've been too small. HD: That was my job. (both laughing) EB: They did can. I enjoyed it. Eating it. HD: Mm mm. It was nice in the winter. EB: Mm mm. CL: How long did you live there? EB: I lived there until I went to college. CL: OK. EB: So that would've been what, 18 years? CL: OK. EB: 18 years. I'll tell ya one thing I remember. It was during the winter and it snowed. Childlike, I got a piece of cardboard and I went from the steps to the sidewalk. It was a pretty good distance. And it was slippery. I was having fun. My father came home and he slipped on it. And the next thing I knew, he had ashes all over my playground. (both laughing) But I didn't dare say a word. It was fun. CL: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? And that's gonna take a little while, I know. EB: You don't even want to hear that Mrs. Lewis. CL: I would love to. 4 �EB: No you don't. CL: I would love to hear how some of it has changed over the years. 0.20.03.3 HD: This is a new millennium and things like – the City of Roanoke doesn't appreciate the black history. As we say back in those days when we were coming up, we were close. Neighbors were close and everything. And we knew each other and we could go this place, go that place but we lost our connectivity and most cities realized what urban renewal has done and are being more sensitive to the black community. But here in Roanoke, they just want to take, take, take, take. CL: Evelyn? EB: Roanoke has changed from where I can sit, and it has not been for the better because they have built roads indiscriminately and roads destroy a community, just like here in Gainsboro. This Gainsboro Road widening has just destroyed our neighborhood because it has cut us off from our neighbors to the west. We have steps that older people have difficulty negotiating. Or the children and older folks coming to this library. The traffic makes it inconvenient for them to get over here and they do not have any indication that there's a library close by or the seniors and children are trying to get across the street. We mentioned it when we were working with the Gainsboro Steering Committee but it hasn't been done yet. They do not have benches over there for our older people to sit in or our young people with children who are waiting for the bus. I saw a young lady not long ago sitting on the curb and that's exceptionally dangerous, waiting for the bus. So, this area has changed negatively. Bringing the road, realigning Wells Avenue did a great deal to disconnect our community. HD: And another thing that's so disheartening. We all know the history of Northeast. They closed Gilmer School, Gainsboro, Harrison, Loudon and Melrose. And when you strip a community of your schools, that's so bad. And now they're talking about they may want to close a couple more in Northwest. So, schools are a part of a community and when you close schools like that, it sends a message that you don't care. And then to even think that they would think about doing it again. EB: That's true. HD: And we lost our churches and homes and businesses and everything. And then to add insult to injury, to think that they would want to come up on Henry Street the last tiny block that we have left of our history where the Burrell Hospital started the black doctors and worked so hard up there because we couldn't go to the white hospitals. It started on Henry Street and there's rich history up there. And now they're talking about putting a Social Security Building up there on that last tiny block. Most cities are trying to be more sensitive to what has happened in the past. People keep saying, “Forget the past. Forget the past.”. You learn from the past and you improve. Its like you have a record. If you want to apply for a house, the first thing they can do is check your record and if you ain't got no good credit, you ain't gonna get no house. You're not gonna get a house. So when we look back at Roanoke the way it has treated its African-American citizens, they have a failing rate and they're continuing to do the same thing. We met here for, what, a year a two, Gainsboro Steering Committee? EB: Yes. HD: We couldn't even get the benches. We couldn't beautify. We couldn't get any. Sometimes – And people say, “Well, don't come to me.”. They're calm because they hear all of this good stuff and nothing ever becomes of it. We wanted a play area. There's gobs of kids here in Gainsboro. You see 'em just rolling off the buses all over. Gainsboro Southwest Organization worked hard with Tech, students from Tech, police officers and city officials, some of 'em, and it was just a play area for the small children, say from 6 to maybe 10. I don't know what the ages were. It was all set to go. Thumbs down. We can't get anything and you come to me. “Ain't no need in going to the meeting 'cause they ain't gonna do nothing.”. I said, “Well, we gotta keep going 'cause we gotta let 'em know we're there.”. But its so disheartening. You know it really is. So, Roanoke (sigh) 0.25.51.0 5 �EB: Its changed and its on a downward spiral. Anytime your education system is in the decline our system is in, how are you going to build – How are you going to build your community when you don't educate your youth. Your youth. And it seems they have as their priority, putting a hotel on Mill Mountain. Now, how many citizens are going to use a hotel on Mill Mountain? And how many citizens have asked for it? We have petitions from citizens to save Victory Stadium. They didn't do it and now they don't know what they're going to do with the land out there. Roanoke lacks good solid honest leadership. And I don't see it. And another thing, talking about Gainsboro specifically, the neighborhood did not want that new house in the 300 block of Gilmer Avenue Northwest but it was put in there anyway. So, whenever we have opinions, they just (clap) walk all over us as if to say, “You don't count. Don't even come down here and bother me. We're going to do what we want to do. I listened to you because I have to but I'm really not listening. My ears are closed.”. Remember that old song, “What's that you say, I've got beans in my ear?”. They've got beans in their ears because they're not listening. They don't want to listen and they don't realize that we work, we pay taxes, probably more than the wealthy. We pay taxes. We have property. We keep it up. We would like some assistance from the city. The city came in and tore our community to pieces. Just to pieces. Got rid of the businesses, the schools, the churches, the homes. Now if they want to rebuild this area, which I doubt, they could come in and say, “Look, you get together. Tell us what kind of businesses you want. We're not going to build them for you but we will assist you in locating some businesses to come in. We will put out request for proposals and see who we can get to come in and build and work with you.”. It hasn't happened. It happened when they wanted to put that Wells Avenue alignment there. They brought everybody together and they had plans, making cul-de-sacs and everything. But it didn't work out that way because the citizens said, “No, we don't want that. We don't want you to close off our streets.”. But they kept working and working and working. Eventually, they got City Council sitting up there like – I won't say – Approving the plans to close the streets. Same difference. When you close a street, you are eliminating a line of communication and a feeling of togetherness. If you have a one way street, you don't have any togetherness and that's what this community overall lacks. Not just in the black community but in the white community too. The difference is, in the white community, most of them have money and they get things done. But over here, we have a little money but it should not depend upon your wealth. A city is for all people. 0.30.20.1 HD: The struggle continues because on Henry Street in its heyday, it was whites and blacks. Whites and blacks. And when people say, “Forget the past.”, we need something to record our history so it will be there and we need to let them know about our doctors and what they did. And we're not saying we definitely don't want the Social Security Building up there. The land sat there. Our people went to court to try to save that land 'cause it was theirs and they said, “No.”. They went to court and they lost it. They sat on that property for I don't know how many years and then they come up with this. What we're saying now is, “Open that plot of land up there and have a request for proposal, black or white.”. Put something up there that blends with the Dumas Artistic Guild, the Culinary School and Higher Education Center. We don't need that Social Security Building up there. And the struggle goes on and on. We had to fight so hard. They had made plans to give Washington Park over to the Catholic Church and our kids could not play in prime time like they had always been doing. Well, that's one battle. We did win that one. So, you know, it continues and just when we think they've done all they can do, they pop up with something else. Methadone clinic. The county didn't want it. We didn't want it up there right next to Dr. Shadrach Brown's Church and a community center that's he's trying to build. But, they did it. So you see, just when you think they can't do more, they keep doing things. And it is so wrong. CL: Miss Davis, elaborate a little bit on the businesses and Miss Bethel on Henry Street when you were growing up. Can you tell us about all of the different kinds of businesses in that area? Now, you 6 �see that they're trying to build the Social Security Building there. What was there? Can you give us a general idea on all of the businesses and the places that you all visited? HD: They had the Star City Auditorium which was a place that had bands and dances and things. That was real nice. And they had a grocery store on the corner of Wells and I guess it would be Henry Street, Weebees (??). We had the 308 Club which was real nice. We'd go up and it was just real nice. You had your drinks or special parties or something. And then we went down the street. We had Nick's. EB: Palace Hotel. HD: Yeah, the Palace Hotel. And we had Nicks and EB: The Atlantic HD: He was Greek. I think he was Greek. Was he Greek? EB: I think so. The Atlantic Sandwich Shop. HD: Yeah. And we had, of course, the Dumas Hotel. EB: There was an ice cream parlor, wasn't it? Jack and Jill's Ice Cream Parlor? HD&EB: It was still in the Dumas Hotel. (simultaneously) HD: We had a record shop up there. We had Dr. Penn's drug store. I called it his drug store. We had two drug stores up there. Mr. Brooks and Dr. Penn. And we had the Virginia Theater. And we had the Morocco Club which was later changed to the Ebony Club. And what else did we have? EB: The doughnut shop. How can you forget the doughnut shop. (both laughing) I thought of that right away. HD: Dr. Griff had the little cozy booth in the back and I remember I used to love cherry Cokes and I would always sit back there with my husband and whisper sweet nothings. (both laughing uproariously) It was nice. And we had dances and we had everything. EB: There was a car repair shop to the west of the Virginia Theater. Remember that family with 3 boys? HD: Yes. EB: And they always dressed alike and it was like little stair steps. HD: I remember that. EB: And they went to the Catholic Church. 0.35.00.2 HD: I bet Ed Hollowin (??) would know their name. EB: I bet he would too. CL: The Ragsdales? EB: No, that doesn't sound right. HD: There was a barber shop up there too. CL: Shoe shop. Did Mr. Reenie (??) have a shoe shop that early or was that later on? EB: That was later I think. The shoe shop was later. HD: Kaiser? There was a shoe shop up there. Yeah, there was a shoe shop up there. EB: Was it? HD: It was just bustling with activity and, of course, they like to say that it wasn't nice up there. It was in the later years when it started to deteriorate, you know. But people wouldn't bother you and men would always tip their hats to the ladies you know. We don't see that anymore. (laughing) It was just nice. And I remember a girlfriend of mine, she lived down in Northeast. Arlene, you probably remember the Powell family. Lived across the street from that fire station down there. AO: Mm mm. (Arlene Ollie) HD: She would walk home at 10 or 11 o'clock at night with her friends and nobody would bother you. Of course, they had the undertaker parlor down there. And I can see that fire station in my mind now. It was just nice. Mr. Hydrona (??). 7 �CL: It was a community. EB: It was a community. HD: It was a community. AO: Equal to Grandin Court. EB: It was. It really was. And a part of Henry Street is Jordan's Alley where people lived back there too. HD: Mm mm. EB: Off of Henry Street. HD: And they had a restaurant here on the corner up at Harrison. I think it was Dew Drop Inn was the name of it. And then later, we had the Pfizer funeral home there. EB: I thought Dew Drop Inn was on Gilmer and Henry Street. HD: It was a restaurant there. I think it was the Dew Drop Inn. EB: Oh, OK. HD: And then there was another lady down here that ran a sandwich shop. I forget her name. And we had that complex with all those doctors in it on the corner. See, they tore that down. Uh huh. Its sad history. EB: That's how Gainsboro has changed and we hope that its on the upswing now. I have often asked people when I meet them, “Why don't you move to Gainsboro?”. They don't give an answer but I can see their faces. (both giggling and laughing) Every community has to start somewhere and if we could get most of our young black professionals and white professionals to move to this area, it would be a diamond. It would be a diamond in the rough. Most people want to wait until something is complete before they move in but I would rather be in on the beginning and help build it and then look back and see how complete it is. We have a couple of friends who have bought lots on Gilmer Avenue. They want to build. That would be a very, very expensive house, over $200,000, but they haven't built because the property on Gilmer Avenue is standing, its deteriorating and the owner will not fix it. We have taken the owner to court and they only fined him $200. That was about a year ago. The house is still standing, dilapidated. The city claims it can't do anything to make him tear the house down or fix it up. So the people who bought the property refused, rightfully, to build until that shack is removed. HD: And they want to build. EB: And they are anxious to build. HD: They left Jefferson Eight (??) in the county but they got that piece of property over there and they're waiting for that house to be EB: They were living in Jefferson Eight (??) before they bought the property but the city won't do anything to help us. We had a business. We met in this library. HD: That's right. EB: We had a couple of people who wanted to buy the car wash area down there. The city sent 'em over to tell 'em to talk to the neighborhood. 0.40.05.8 HD: They had a meeting right here. EB: They explained their plan to us and the neighborhood approved it. When they went back to the city and told the city the neighbors were in favor of it, the city told 'em, “We want the property.”. So the city turned around and bought the property. AO: Is that not what happened on Henry Street? EB & HD: That's right. AO: Is that what happened on any property of any one in the black community has the gall to say, “I want to put a business or a home here.”. So why can't they use that same power and get rid of that house? HD: They wouldn't have it in South Roanoke. That house would be gone. And then they talk about – 8 �They're not using common sense because with all of the positive things, we know they can't undo the past. We know that. But you're improving. You make the future brighter. With all the positive things – The Dumas Artistic Auditorium is very nice. We've been there several times. Higher Education Center and the Culinary School that's a comp (??). Martin Luther King Jr. Bridge is supposed to be coming. If you – If that bridge is finally done and its Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Bridge, why in the name of heaven would you put a huge, that's going to take up the whole block with a Social Security Building? That's poor planning. You don't do things like that and to come in on our last block of our history after we'd suffered all this much in Northeast, Northwest, and they still keep at it. It doesn't make sense. EB: The building is oversized, inappropriate in design. Its like trying to fit a size 14 into a size 10, really. Plus, because of the security requirements, the community won't be able to use the first floor. You see, all of these things are going on and when we mention the past, we're told, “Oh, forget about the past.”. But when people talk about the Wiener Stand, “Oh, that's nostalgic. Oh, that's nostalgia. We love the Wiener Stand. That's nostalgia.”. Now, what is the difference between nostalgia and the past? What is the difference? HD: They don't think. EB: They think – I told one city employee when they were discussing that Social Security Building, I said, “You know what? The city thinks we are fools and that we don't any sense at all.”. He took exception to it. “I don't think you're a fool.”. I said, “I didn't say you thought we were fools, I said, the city, the administration, everybody.”. “No, I don't feel that way. I work for the city. Blah, blah, blah.”. He was taking up for 'em. And I said, “And you should take up for 'em because you work for 'em but I still say they think we're fools.”. I don't think I've seen him but 2 or 3 times since then. Roanoke has changed. It has changed and they don't like to hear the word racist but if you look at the record, one person at City Council told them, “One side's looking like heaven and the other side's looking like hell.”. HD: That's what he said and its the truth. EB: You look at the Southside and you look at the Northside. HD: No amenities. EB: In order to correct a problem, you must first admit that there is a problem. Even with the park study. Northwest is grossly misrepresented. The only park I think we have of significance is George Washington Park. No, not George Washington Park, Booker T. Washington. Booker T. Washington. Get away from here George. (all laughing) Its Booker T. Washington Park. We had to fight to keep it away from the big white establishment. 0.45.10.2 HD: And Roanoke Catholic. EB: And Roanoke Catholic. So, we had a committee approved by Darlene Burcham to work on Washington Park and we worked on that committee for over a year diligently. We came up with a comprehensive plan for Washington Park. We asked, “C'mon, when are you going to have the community meeting to show people what we've come up with?”. HD: Because they were at the first meeting, the kids. EB: The kids came, the seniors came, everybody came from all across town about the first meeting for Washington Park. Haven't heard a thing about it. They will not post a community meeting. Now, why they won't do is beyond me. Darlene looked at the plan. She said it was a good plan. That's as far as it got. Washington Park is significant to this community for many reasons. But one is, that during the time of segregation, we had black people coming from Lynchburg, Bedford, and everywhere else to go to Washington Park. Washington Park had a swimming pool. They came by and got rid of that with the new Orange Avenue thing. Moved the pool up there near the dump site. A friend has told us that the dump is leaking and it shouldn't be up there. That the pool is contaminated. I do not know that for 9 �a fact but, you see, then after the Washington Park committee, we heard that the city wanted to put in a water park. You know those parks where – They wanted to put that over at Washington Park. But we haven't heard a thing about that since either. People volunteer and they work, they put in their time and as far as I know, I don't know any volunteer who has received any type of stipend from the city. HD: And adding to this Evelyn, the set-up was, after Darlene had approved it, the plan that we had worked on, she was to come back to the community at large and present it to them. She went to City Council and got permission. We didn't used to have to do this. It seems like we're moving backwards instead of forwards. Councilman Wishneff and Councilman Lea, said yes, we recommend that you come to City Council meeting and give a report. She had requested that she be on the agenda because it would take more than 3 minutes or 5 minutes to present what she wanted to tell City Council about it. Well, when the deal went down, it went to the Mayor and he didn't know what was going on and he called Darlene and then, one of the park workers called Evelyn, “Did you call Miss Burcham?”. She said, “No, I didn't call Miss Burcham. I'm just trying to get on the agenda.”. She was denied. EB: That's right. HD: You know you – You know. So they can always find something to come over here and just continue, continue, continue – I don't know what they're going to have planned next but that Social Security Building, we're still trying to stop it because its wrong. EB: Its got to go. Especially when they have so many other places they can put it. Orange Avenue where they had planned to put the stadium, have plenty of parking. Its already graded. Its already owned by the city. They have Reserve Avenue site which they have lots of land. First, they said were going to put soccer fields and now they're talking about putting a waterway where people can use a kayak or whatever. They don't know what to do with it. But, they insist, so far, on putting the Social Security Building on Henry Street. HD: And to add insult to injury, putting those little 0.49.58.7 EB: Oh, yeah, we forgot to tell you that. They proposed if the building goes up, they will have a sidewalk museum and that will consist of the little statues like you see in shopping malls of prominent people in the area. Oh, they're very durable. They're very durable. Plus, they will have an indention in the building and they will have some things inside the building that people can look at as part of our history. HD: And that's supposed to be a Social Security Building. We're supposed to approve of that and that's an insult. That's an insult. EB: I told 'em I didn't like the idea and most people in the meeting did not like the idea but all they needed was one person to like and they run with it. HD: Its been a struggle. EB: And plus, they said they would get the money from the city to do that stuff. So you know how far that went. HD: And they don't have money to buy our kids school books but they're gonna come on with some junk like that. EB: Right. HD: I mean AO: You must have your priorities. HD: They don't have their priorities right because looking at the city as a whole, the first thing you do is educate your children. And you pay your teachers and you go from there. All of this other stuff that they're talking about, its secondary. And I saw – Did you see the news last night where they cut the $7,000 fund from William Flemming – What's the proper word for that? Where they EB: The arts. HD: The arts. 10 �AO: And the kids are being ______. HD: Yeah. Uh huh. We had our priorities wrong and its a lack of leadership. So many things gone wrong in the city. We have taken and continued for over 40 years economic development and this city has been born on black neighborhoods. EB: Mm mm. HD: And its time to stop. Right now. AO: 53 years. HD: 53. OK. EB: OK. And its time for it to stop. CL: Where did you go to elementary school Miss Bethel? EB: Gainsboro School. CL: Miss Davis? HD: Gainsboro. EB: They had pot-belly stoves in there. HD: Sure did. EB: And I don't know who made the fires. I guess the young men or the teachers but they had potbelly stoves in there. I don't ever remember getting cold. I remember the teacher telling me if you don't know how to spell a word, look it up in the dictionary. I said to myself, (both laughing) “How can I find it in the dictionary if I don't how to spell it.”. Myself went back there and found it. (both laughing) I remember we had fire drills and we would run down those old wooden steps and run out in the yard and we would stand there and do that Pledge of Allegiance. And we believed it too. (both laughing) Oh, we believed. “I pledge allegiance.”. HD: And you know what turns your stomach. Roanoke is celebrating our 125th EB: Mm mm. HD: Down at the Civic Center. They had a beautiful church down there, Mt. Zion AME Brandon Church. And you know EB: All those businesses. HD: Homes and all of that stuff down there, that was our homes and businesses and they just – Have you seen the EB: Looking Back. HD: Looking Back on Channel 9. Its gonna be on tonight at 5:30 and again at 10:00 tonight. So watch it. EB: You need to see that. HD: It breaks your heart. EB: They burnt our homes just like the trash. I didn't know they burned 'em. I knew they knocked 'em over but when I saw the burning, I said, “This reminds me of Germany, Nazi Germany.”. When Hitler burned all the books. That's what it reminded me of. I felt so bad. HD: It was beautiful down there. I remember it. EB: I remember some of it. HD: And they took a picture before and after and they took it up to the JFK Center in DC and they said that when they showed it, the audience just gasped. They couldn't believe it. What was there before and afterwards. 0.55.01.1 EB: Mm mm. HD: Most cities have been more sensitive to black neighborhoods but we've seem to want to keep on going. EB: I think I'll get a black armband and go down there tomorrow. HD: Evelyn told me, she said, “We ought to go down there - “. 11 �EB: And just walk up and down and then they'll put me in jail but that'll be alright too. Just walk up and down the street with a black armband. “What's the black armband for?”. “Would you really like to know?”. (all laughing) I can tell you. HD: They'll say Miss Bethel and Miss Davis have gone crazy. (both laughing) That's what she said, “We ought to go down there.”. EB: I'm serious. So if you hear about me being in jail, you'll know why. CL: Miss Bethel, when you were going to elementary school, did you walk or did your father take you or did you ride in a car? How did you get to school? EB: We walked. Our Lady of the Valley. There was a hill with nothing there and we walked. Our home at 19 Patton, about ¾'s down the block from Jefferson Street and we walked from there to Gainsboro and I think I spent one year at Harrison. We walked. We did not have a family car and no matter how much snow was on the ground. HD: We had to go to school. EB: We had to go to school. There was no such thing as a snow day. We didn't know what a snow day was. HD: We walked to Addison, Gainsboro and Harrison. EB: Yeah, we walked. And sometimes, we didn't have boots. We had shoes and we had shoes that had cardboard in 'em. HD: But we went to school. EB: We went to school. (all laughing) HD: No snow days. EB: No snow days. CL: OK. EB: And schools were warm. CL: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills? EB: No, I don't. HD: I do. CL: OK, you do Miss Davis? HD: I remember reading about it. CL: What jobs were available for poor African-Americans during the time that you were coming up? HD: Well, a lot of the men worked at Norfolk & Western and there were cab drivers and EB: Hardware drivers. HD: They had black businesses, you know. Mr. Hizona (??) had that beautiful tailor shop down there and we had morticians and just about everything. EB: Mr. Bean had his electric shop. HD: Yeah, right across the street. EB: Mm mm. HD: And so there were a lot of businesses. EB: And there were groceries on Gainsboro Road. HD: And Harrison. And Henry Street. EB: Mm mm. HD: So, there were businesses. CL: Who were some of the leaders during the time when you were coming up? Who did you consider a leader? HD: Dr. Harry Penn and Terry and Rubin Lawson and Reverend – What was the minister's CL: James? HD: Yeah, Reverend James and the one at Hill Street, Reverend Wilkinson. EB: Reverend Powell. 12 �HD: I didn't know too much about him. And Reverend Greene, Reverend Charles Greene. And, uh, EB: We had photographers and newspapers too as businesses that black folk worked in. HD: Yeah. EB: Grocery stores. HD: We had the Tribune. EB: Mr. Clark, the photographer. HD: Mm mm. EB: His number was still listed as late as 2 years ago when Jackie called. HD: Yeah, she found it. She said, “Mamma”. I said, “Jackie, that's an old number.”. She said, “Its in the phone book.”. CL: Have we omitted anything that you all would like to tell us that happened during childhood? I know the way you spoke about it, it was a pleasure to be living and growing up in the time that you did. Is there anything that we neglected to ask? Urban renewal we hit on, the military. 0.59.35.2 EB: Urban Renewal. Oh, speaking of the military. During that time, I guess it was World War II, if you had someone in the military, you had a little flag and it had a star in it and the star would represent the numbers of people in your family that were serving in the military. And at one time, we had three, didn't we? We had 3 stars on our flag because I had 3 brothers in the military. I don't know if we still have that flag. Big Ed might still have it. I don't know if we still have that flag or not but that was something that was done and I can remember my daddy serving as a warden. I guess that's what you call 'em. And he would walk the neighborhood and make sure that nobody's light was on and nobody was smoking a cigarette because he said, “No matter if it were just a flick of light from a cigarette, the enemy would be able to see it.”. So I can remember that. I can also remember the day the war started because my girlfriend, Mary Ann Blake and I were walking across Peach Hill I guess it was. And we heard all this noise. “Extra! Extra! Read all about it!”. We said, “What is he yelling about?”. And, of course, we did not understand the significance of it being children but I will always remember that. “Extra!”. They don't do that now. CNN comes on with – What do they call it? HD: Breaking news. EB: Breaking news. Developing story. That added something to a neighborhood that this whole country is lacking now and children get on a bus. They go to their school. They stay there. They come home. They don't have a chance to develop a love for the neighborhood because they're gone all day and when they come home, they're either doing their homework or they should be or they're sitting in front of a computer. I think this country is losing its sense of connectivity and concern for others and its so sad. I was speaking with a man last night and I was telling him when I got the information about the election, I would bring it to him or send it to him. He said, “That's alright. Do they have a website?”. I said, “Yes, they have a website.”. “I'll get on the website and do it.”. Well, getting on a website is not the same as face to face communication. It really is not. Getting on a cell phone. Somebody told me, “Some people have a cell phone rather than a land phone.”. I said, “Yes, they do.”. I thought to myself, “When I'm out, I don't want to be bothered by anybody calling me. Call me at home. If I'm not there, leave a message. If you don't leave a message, keep calling 'til I'm home.”. Then you go out. The other day we were walking and somebody said something and we looked and we thought they were talking to us. They were talking on the cell phone. Talking so loud. This country, this city, has got to stop and give people time to think. We've got to have time to think and discard the bad information and keep the good but as long as you're on that cell phone or the computers. The little kids playing on the computers. They might think I'm saying that because I don't have one but computers are nice. They can do a lot. But there is nothing to compare to the human mind. When we were small, we made up games. HD: Mm mm. 13 �EB: Had a little Tiddly Winks and stuff. But our minds were creative and now, with the computer, you're doing what somebody else has created. You don't have time to sit down and think of something different. So, Roanoke City has got to stop and find a leader, black, white, man or woman or child that's going to say, “Look-a-here, we have got to do better in this city. We're losing population. Every year it goes down. And then they give a park report that's based on the city's estimation that in 2010, we will have gained about 5,000 more people. How are they going to gain the people? You want young people. They're not coming if the school system is no good. If the library system is no good. All of 'em can't come to Gainsboro library. (all laughing) 1.05.20.5 CL: I want you to elaborate on Gainsboro library since you were instrumental in getting it made a historic site so I want you to elaborate on that part before you close out please. HD: Somebody turned it down one time. EB: Yeah, they were talking about tearing this library down at one time. HD: Had to fight. EB: And we said, OOOOOhhh no, not Gainsboro library. This library has been a pillar of our community. Let's see, I'm 73, for at least sixty-some years. At least. And I think we've only had 3 librarians. Miss Lewis, Miss Lee and Miss Mitchell. So you see, its stability. Its stability. Its a genuine concern for people. There was an article in the paper several weeks ago about how teenagers were acting up in one library. I forgot where it was but it wasn't Gainsboro. I said, they need to come up here to Gainsboro. HD: There were teenagers too. EB: Yeah, they were teenagers. They should come up here to Gainsboro and write an article about how well disciplined the children are when they come in this library. Had the children that they highlighted in that article been up here at Gainsboro, they would've said, “Tear it down. Tear it down. Its no good. They don't know how to act.”. They would. They wrote one article and these were teenagers as you said, going in and acting up in the library. But the teenagers that come to this library know how to act. And as sweet as Miss Lewis sounds with that nice voice and lovely smile, they know they better do right. HD: And pull their pants up too. EB: And pull their pants up too. She won't let 'em in here with those baggy pants. (all laughing) So you see, in more ways than one, this library is one reason Gainsboro is still here as a community. HD: Mm mm. EB: It pulls people together. Those who live in the area and those who live outside the area. It pulls people – when they come visit to the area, they come back. “Let me go see what the library is doing.”. And the walk in and say, “It looks the same.”. They're so proud. It looks the same. Miss Lewis, I don't know what else I can say about this library except it should be here forever and you should too. As one lady told us in church about her grandson, he said, “Granny, I want you to be here and raise my children.”. She said, “Honey, I've got to get out of here.”. (both laughing) HD: He was serious. EB: He was serious too. He wanted his grandmother to raise his children. HD: She said, “I won't be here. I've got to get out of here one day.”. (all laughing) EB: So that's why Miss Lewis says she wishes she could stay but she's got to get out of here one day. HD: It was in danger of being gone. ____________ We went to Richmond and talked and they were in favor of keeping it. But it was on – They wanted it but it didn't happen. CL: And thanks to you two, we are now a historic library and these two ladies were instrumental in doing all of the work that got us on the map. And I am just thankful. EB: Let me tell ya, we put in for that historic designation, right? And about a year later, we still had not heard anything. We were at City Council and they mentioned the Hotel Roanoke was getting its 14 �historic designation. I stood up. Bob Herbert was Mayor then. HD: Mm mm. 1.09.54.8 EB: I said, “Do you have different procedures for different institutions? Hotel Roanoke applied maybe about 3 or 4 months ago and it already has its designation for historic recognition. We put in for Gainsboro Library about a year ago and we haven't heard a thing about it. So are there different time lines?”. I forgot what his answer was but within the next month, we had our historic designation. So you see, those are the kinds of small things that we have to be alert to and fight against and try to see if the playing ground isn't level, as level as it can be. And speaking of that, with the Social Security Office, they had certain procedures that they should have followed with consulting parties. Section 106. Did they do it? HD: No. EB: No. We wrote several people in the community, asked to be a consulting party and they agreed to it. So, we became consulting parties. But, the decision and everything had already been made when we became consulting parties. The city and Harwood don't want to respond to the fact that they did all of that before checking with the community. We are fighting them and we explained to them, “That Section 106 was put in to prevent just what Roanoke City did with the Social Security Office.”. HD: And if they hadn't been called on it EB: It would've been gone. It would've been built. So, see those kinds of things, we have to be mindful about and if we just had missed that City Council meeting that day, we wouldn't have known about it. HD: Mm mm. EB: But we go to practically all of them anyway. HD: We have to 'cause we can't trust 'em. We just have to be there because they can do some things at the 9:00 session which is off camera and they've got the beautiful ______. They could go upstairs but they do it downstairs, off camera, so you know, you never know what they're going to come up with. CL: Arlene Ollie, would like to ask any more questions. You had some comments during the interview and I appreciate you being here. Would you like to say a few words or ask a question? AO: No, I think I pretty much did that with my notes. CL: OK. AO: I really appreciate the things that you said. I stay in trouble constantly with this mouth and I'm about to take on a new plan so that I'm sure I'll be in more trouble but see I'm OK. I don't have a job. They kept me from working most of my adult life and now I'm disabled so I get a Social Security check so they can't take that. The only think I have left is my life. So, be that as it will, we're all here for a purpose. This may be mine. So I do appreciate the history that you've added. We need more of this because what I intend to do, I don't know if anybody will pay any attention to it or not, is to try to write this by putting it in focus for people to understand that each time a new disappointment comes, we've got history to base this on. EB: Yeah. AO: You know, we're talking about the Social Security Building now but in 1954, with the Commonwealth Project in Northeast, it was about replacing a neighborhood. You see any houses down there at the Civic Center, Magic City Ford, Sheetz? Where are the homes? So, Roanoke City has always gotten away with doing whatever it chooses, however it chooses no matter what the black community says. So its up to the black community to stop relying on Roanoke City. HD: I agree. AO: We need to learn to take care of each other, respect each others property, help one another and try to stay abreast of what they're doing so that we can beat 'em to the punch. EB: There ya go. 15 �AO: That's the only way we're going to make it. HD: Mm mm. AO: They have proven in 53 years that no matter what we say, how many of us say it, how reasonable it is, how well thought out it is, they're going to do it. EB: That's true. AO: Like I said, I appreciate this because in the future, someone can come down and listen to this and think, “Oh, they said that when?”. EB: Exactly. (all laughing) AO: So, thank you very much again. EB: May I say just one thing. The consultant who gave the report about the parks, gave our city a very low score. But what astonished me was, he said he was here 7 years ago and gave a report about the parks and nothing has been done in 7 years. One man in the audience said he had been away from Roanoke and come back 3 times and nothing has been done. So, this is why we're saying Roanoke doesn't have any leadership and what you say is very true. Today its the Social Security Office. Tomorrow, might be Eureka Park. I don't know. You just have to keep watching. Get our black armbands out. 16 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2653/Bethel_Evelyn_and_Davis_Helen_3_15_March_2007.JPG 05f0f092ea116ede36ab8d8a8b1bf60e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Evelyn Bethel and Helen Davis Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Evelyn Bethel and Helen Davis Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 15 March 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:16:44 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 15 March 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Helen E. Davis; Evelyn D. Bethel; Carla Lewis; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Bethel-Davis https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2652/FarleyFlorence_[compressed].mp3 278a4995d25e42888f622d6a8bff572c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2652/FarleyFlorence.pdf fd39c8f83f094fdcfcee1e35c014b7b5 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Florence Farley Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Andrew Sterling CL: The date is February 26, 2007. I am interviewing Dr. Florence Saunders Farley. Dr. Farley, when and where were you born? FF: I was born on May 28, 1928, at 518 Loudon Avenue Northwest, Roanoke, Virginia. CL: Tell me about your parents, your brothers or sisters. Did you have extended family? FF: Oh, no, I had enough of my first family. (chuckling) I didn't need to have any extended family but I guess we did basically, when you think about it because my mother and her brother who had children were extremely close. So, my cousins were very much like sisters and brothers. My aunt was very much like another mother. So, I guess, in a way, we think about that as an extended family. But my mother was a – At first, I'd have to say a very beautiful, visionary white woman who – There were 10 of us. So, I was the 9th child of 10 children and we always talked about the fact that there were two families. My older brothers and sisters and my younger sister and brother and niece who was really as a sister to us. And so, my mother, by the time I came along, was a very relaxed person who just was just enjoyed life and interacted with her children in such a very comfortable way because, as she said, she had already reared children and she knew she knew how to be a mother. Therefore, she just kinda, as we used to say, “Let the good times roll.”. So, I was fortunate enough to be born into a family, a large family, and had all the benefits nearly of being an only child or being in small family because it was only my sister and my brother was maybe 5 or 6 years older than I. So, he was kinda out of my range. My mother was married when she – She had her first child when she was 16 years old and so when we start talking about young women having babies of today, we don't understand, I guess, the dynamics of being of the fact that her mother kindly took the oldest of my mother's children in and taught her how to mother. So, the grandmother did a lot of that with them. My mother, Kate, was born in Danville, Virginia, and she came to Roanoke. She finished her education in Roanoke. And at that time, black children only went to the 8th grade in Roanoke. Roanoke Public School education was 8th grade. And my mother was taught by Miss Lucy Addison and many of the principles that Miss Addison taught her as a child, as a student, my mother taught us. For example, if we would ask my mother how to spell a word. She would say to us, “Go to Mr. Webster.”. And our dictionary sat in the high chair, my baby sister's high chair. And when she got large enough not to use the high chair, the dictionary sat in that high chair in that same place and anytime we had to spell or we would be doing homework and all, we knew that that's where we would go. That was our little library was the dictionary. (chuckling) And we would go to the dictionary, she would tell us, “Just quickly check with Mr. Webster.” and we would go to Mr. Webster. She was fascinating and tell many tales about my mother and her whole style of mothering and her relationship with us being students and how she encouraged and worked with us in that domain. She always said that the girls could bring A's and B's home and the boys could bring home A's, B's and C's. So, I don't know why she was so sexist but, anyway, she was. So, she would let them do a little less than we and also, she _______. My father was an interesting, very, very interesting person. He was born in Radford, Virginia. 0.04.36.1 CL: Can you give me his name? FF: My father's name was Statious Thadeous Saunders. And we thought that was an interesting name because no other children in school had my daddy's name. And my mother's name was Neota. Nobody else had her name. Neota Florence. And I have her name and I'm very proud of that. And she was Neota Florence Saunders. She was Aware. Her maiden name was Aware. My grandmother, as I said, was nothing but a matriarch. She just directed her children's families and their lives and so forth 'cause she was kind of an interesting, fascinating woman also. My father was a follower of Marcus Garby and 1 �so I know from childhood about the Black Star and the ship and all. We had pictures in the house of all of that. He was very, very uncomfortable in the South as a black man. He didn't feel that he could make the kind of money that he wanted to rear his children and to do for his family. He was the baby in his family. So, he would go to Pittsburgh where he had older brothers and work in the steel mills. And they made extremely good money in the steel mills. But just periodically when the South became too much for him, he would go north and he would go to Pittsburgh and he'd work and we'd stay here and my mother kept us. He sent money home every two weeks for all of us and everything. So, we had to live – Periodically, my father wasn't home. One wasn't there but that was because he just could not tolerate the South and so he would do that and come back home and we'd cry and love him up and he loved us dearly and we had a good time. But, it was an interesting kind of beginning. My mother was devoutly Christian and Baptist at that. My father was just non-religious and so on Sundays, I used to have a choice. Sometimes I would go to Sunday School but there were other times I would go with my father. We would walk downtown and he would show me all the clothes in the store and talk to me about a whole array of things and so, he had a big influence on my life and a lot of attitudes that I have and all I got from him. I guess its good I had my mother's controlling things, because I guess I'd been wild as a buck if I hadn't. Something wild anyway so who cares. (laughing) CL: Did you all sit on the front porch and listen to the radio or do you remember your telephone? FF: We didn't have a telephone. We lived in the middle of the block. My grandmother lived on the corner. OK? And my grandmother lived with my Uncle Alfred. My Uncle Alfred worked for the railroad. He worked with Norfolk and Western Railroad. And so, she lived there. She dominated him as I said. She was in charge of everybody. So, she had – My mother was the only girl in the family and my mother's brothers just kinda worshiped her. So, they did a lot of providing for us, his nieces and nephews. So, the telephone was at my grandmother's house in my early childhood days. We got a telephone, I guess when I got to be a teenager, later, much later in life. But that and – So my grandmother – So we spent – We were supposed to do chores at her house and, of course, we would go down to do the chores and get on the telephone and she couldn't get us off and she was threatening to tell our mother and all. And then it would get to be dark and we would say, “Well, we've got to go home 'cause its dark.” and we'd go and never did scrub the floor. We never did make the beds. We never did – We were bad children. But anyway, that's the way did my poor grandmother. But, she had a telephone so we'd go down there and we'd use that telephone. And, as I said, that's when we were using 'em when we weren't supposed to, like all of the children doing now. The front porch was just an extension of the house and so, you were there. You had nice front porch furniture. Just as you would have nice furniture in your house. You took in your pillows at night and somebody had that chore. Everybody had a job to do around everything. And so, those little pillows couldn't sit out and get all the dew and if it rained and all of that, so, you'd have to bring in the pillows that were on the glider. We had a swing and all of that. So, we didn't listen to the radio on the porch. You wouldn't dare. That was something else I think that people – The porch was more like your sitting room, you know, but again, in my day, you didn't eat anywhere but in the kitchen or dining room. So, you weren't eating on the porch and you wouldn't listen to the radio on the porch. It wasn't that kind of thing. It was a place for social interaction among people. So, we didn't have all this artificial stuff like the radio. So, no, we didn't listen to radios on porches. That wouldn't have been proper. We were very proper Southern people. 0.10.10.7 CL: I didn't mean on the front porch. FF: I know. CL: Did you listen to the radio. A lot of times, people would gather around the radio. FF: We listened to the radio every night. That was a family affair. That was a family affair. We had our programs that came on at night. We got our homework done. We'd do our homework quickly because if it was a certain night – I remember a show like the Inner Sanctum and all that kind of stuff. 2 �We got up in my mother's room on the bed and the radio was up there. The family sat around and listened to the radio. Again, that was another place that you learned things from your parents and all of us would get in there. In my family, we didn't eat dessert after meals. Dessert was basically special. My mother made dessert every night but you didn't eat it until later in the evening. So, after we had done our homework and we wanted to listen to the radio and that's when we had our dessert. CL: Did you have family stories that were passed down from generation to generation that you still tell today to your family members? FF: Yeah, we always shared stories. As I said, like Miss Addison, we thought we knew her because my mother had told us so much about her and different things that we would do in school that she would relate and she would tell. Like, for example, my mother told us stories of her childhood. We still do tell them. For example, with the library. My mother – I became just an avid library-goer. I just went every day to the library. Of course, it was similar to what my mother did. She said that the library in her day was at a store. And it was in the back of the store and I don't remember the name of the store and where it was located but it must've been maybe in West-end somewhere or in the center of Roanoke or something. But she said that you could go to that store and that the man had books and all. She tells a story of when she was pregnant with me, she says that there was some place across the railroad track which would be like up in Southwest a store. And on Fridays, you would – it was a serial and every week this serial came out and she said that she would send my brother over on Friday's and pick up this serial and they also gave you a dish or some piece of china and it was like a luncheon set. So, I have all pieces of that myself now and that's all connected to this luncheon set that she collected while she was reading this book. And my middle name is Therece and that was the heroine of that book or that story so she named me with that as my middle name. So, we have a lot of stories in our family that we tell and we pass down to the children. We've always been a family of readers. Everybody in my family read. And so, she would often tell us those stories but that was very close to me because that's the way I got my middle name. “And remember,” she would say, “your name is not Theresa. It is Therece.”. CL: What is your fondest memory of childhood? You have many I know but did you have one that just stuck out like a holiday maybe? 0.13.57.1 FF: We just had – You know growing up was just fun. It was just delightful. It was just easy. When you think about it. I think that one of the things that – We had Sunday School like I told you. We went to everybody's Sunday School for their summer Vacation Bible School. So, we could just go from one church to the other and do that and that would fill up our summers. And we looked forward to that. And we learned things. It was part of it. We had plays at school and you learned your part. I remember I was Becky Thatcher in Tom Sawyer. And I played the part of Becky Thatcher and, you know, you got all your stuff together and my sister, Ludy, and Barbie, they were Tiny Tots and they were on the radio. And the whole – I guess what I love more about was we lived in a community and everybody was involved in everything. So, Ludy was an announcer for the Tiny Tots and Barbie was singing on the Tiny Tots. Every Saturday morning, these little black children came on the radio and the whole community would say, “Did you hear the Tiny Tots? And so and so sang this and so and so sang did this and all.”. As I said, we were in plays and everybody was involved. The YWCA. You learned parliamentary procedures. They'd make you be the secretary and you had to learn how to take minutes and the next time – It wasn't this thing about who they elected. It rotated so that all of us could get those kinds of experiences. And I remember one of the things I guess will always stick with me is basically, is the fact that the first woman that I saw, the first person I saw with a PHD Degree was right here in Roanoke at Jerusalem Baptist Church. The pastor of Jerusalem Baptist Church was Dr. E.T. Brown. His wife was Rose Butler Brown. Rose Butler Brown had gotten her PHD from Boston University. And I was at church that Sunday with my mother and Reverend Brown said that his wife 3 �was - “Mrs. Brown is here today but I want you all to know her name has changed. She is a doctor.”. He said, “She's not a medical doctor if you have pains or anything. She's a doctor who knows all about the head.”, 'cause she had her degree in educational psychology. So they had a reception for her afterward and I remember getting in line and marching up to her and my momma said, “Tell her your name Florence.”. She said, “Let the child speak for herself.”. (chuckling) And I did and I was so happy that somebody could get my momma and tell her and I could get away with doing it so I did. Would you believe that years and years and years later, I got a degree in Educational Psych and more importantly, she taught at Virginia State in the same Psych Department that I became the chairman of, that I went to study in and became the chairman of. I didn't have any idea that women couldn't do anything. I saw her – Sadie B. Lawson was our principal the year I was – When I got out of this little cocoon of Roanoke and found out that people said that education wasn't something that black people desired and I realized, “That's all we knew”. And women didn't do anything or that smart kids didn't want to be smart and there was a stigma. Like I was telling you about Popeye and all those boys, they'd tell you in a minute, they weren't as, as they say, quick and fast as I was with the books but they never put me down. They went on and the teacher let them help – we helped each other and we moved on. So a lot of the – What shall I call it? - a lot of the negative things that they say about us as a people. Its good you're doing a history because I don't know anything about it. I had no idea about it. And we need to rewrite history and tell them, “Oh no, oh no, that's not what we were about as a people.”. CL: Do you remember having a family vacation? FF: Yeah. Our family vacation was at Norfolk & Western picnics that they had every year. (laughing) Yeah, that was our vacation. We all went and got cute little short-shorts and little sandals and all of that and packed up all the food in the world. It was the best food in the whole wide world. If your people worked on Norfolk & Western, you went for free. If they didn't, I don't know where these little places were but we got on the train and we went to this place and we sat and spent the whole day and that was one of them. That was one of the summer vacations we had. OK? Another big thing we did was the fair would come every year. And so, you had Children's Day at the fair and you saved your money and everybody got their money together and all you uncles, aunts and cousins and everything gave you money and you just had a big day at the fair. So, yeah, those were the kinds of vacations. My daddy used to take us to ball games in Cincinnati. Again, working on the railroad, you could get free passes from Roanoke to Cincinnati. I can remember one trip that we did that way. And then in the summer, our relatives came back to Roanoke and that was a celebration. And always, momma would cook for days and they would come and visit and everybody had fun. So, there were a lot of different ways of having vacations if you like and a lot of things to do during vacation time. 0.20.23.3 CL: What are the chores that you did around your house? FF: As I told you, all of us had chores. And I spent most of my time getting out of 'em. We had to wash dishes. OK? On Christmas Day after we had gotten all the gifts and everything, during that Christmas break when you're away from school, we would get the new calendar and put down every day who had to wash dishes and who had to dry them. You did dishes in teams. So one person washed and one person dried. And we would know for the whole year, who was supposed to wash dishes and who was supposed to dry dishes. So we took the big old calendar from Norfolk & Western and you put the names down and I was wash and you'd dry. And the person who dried the dishes also swept the kitchen. OK? And washing dishes also included washing those pots and pans that you hated. And I'm not sure if the person who washed the dishes washed the pots and pans or the one who dried the dishes washed the pots and pans but that was always a big problem. My mother had her boys and girls do the same thing so the boys in my family all washed dishes too. So we did that. So we knew a year ahead of time or anytime we wanted to know who was going to wash dishes. And it was a big thing, who was going to be washing dishes on 4th of July and who was going to be the one to do on this day but we 4 �didn't have to wash 'em on Thanksgiving and Christmas when company came because my mother used her good china and crystal. So dish washing was a daily chore that had to be done. You also had to – My mother washed on Monday and when we came home from school on Monday, we had to hang the socks up on the line. She would hang all the big pieces and all and they would be dry. And all these little pieces that were left over, we had to hang them on the back porch to dry. That was something that I did not like. I didn't like any of that work. (chuckling) So, I kept a pain in my side to get out of work and my mother believed me for years and I used that for a while. And then, I – I told you I used to sell these pocketbooks and I used to be the writer, the letter writer for the people in the neighborhood. We had a number of people in the neighborhood who couldn't read or write but they always wrote letters to their families in the country. So on Sunday afternoon, different people would tell my mother to tell me to come up there 'cause they wanted me to write some letters. So, I would go up and I would write letters for these people and I would make like 3 cents of 5 cents a letter and all and then I would put the address and the return address on it and all of that and then I would have to take the letters to my mother to make sure I had gotten it, they called it “backed the letter right”. They called it “backing letters” and I had backed that letter right. And I got paid. See, they game me these pennies and all this change. I always had money and so I would pay my brother to sometimes do my work. I used to pay him to drink my milk and all that stuff so I kept a bankroll and I just paid people to do things for me. I was a real crazy child. (laughing) Dish washing was the main one and my brothers did scrub. Sometimes, we had to scrub – We had a two story house so the inside steps, I had to scrub them some when I was little. CL: How long did you live in the Gainsboro area? FF: I lived all my life here until I went to college. You know you call it Gainsboro but it was just Northwest. We called it Northeast, Northwest, it was just where all of us lived. 'Cause we were backwards and forwards. CL: Coming back to the area, can you describe some of the ways in which it has changed? 0.24.41.7 FF: I don't know where I am. 'Cause I certainly would not have been able to find library and I knew it sat on the corner. I would've been just looking and looking and looking. So, I don't know anything about this place down here really. The street that I was reared on is still there. Our house, we kept, I kept the house, we kept our house until I would guess about 3 or 4 years before my mother died. But after we left – After my mother left home 'cause she stayed there long after – I came home always. I was always home for Christmas or vacation or what have you. But my mother stayed in the house for a long time after. My father died in '55 and I guess my mother must've left that house maybe in the '90s 'cause she was right, maybe about 10 years before she died – Maybe in the late '80s I would say. Then I had nieces and nephews who moved in and they stayed there, three different groups of them and then finally we demolished the house and so just the lot is there. And my grandmother's house has now been demolished and that was on Park Street and 3rd Avenue. Those were the streets there. The Harrison Museum, that's where I went to elementary school. And I went to 8th grade. We had 8th grade was where we went to - 8th grade was Harrison Annex. So, we went from 1st grade to 7th in the middle part of it. On the right hand side, that's where they had the 8th grade for us. So we were in 8th grade there. And then we left 8th grade and we went to Addison, Lucy Addison, and we went to Lucy Addison for 9th through 12th then all the kids from Gainsboro, Gilmer and Gainsboro came in Harrison all met up at Addison. So we had one high school for black kids and we were all there. That whole school was very academically oriented. Very, very academically oriented. Our teachers were individuals with Master's degrees. Basically, at that time, when blacks couldn't go to anywhere but Virginia State and if they wanted a Master's degree, they had to go out of the state and the State of Virginia paid them to go. And so, during the summer, they would go to Columbia, NYU and work on their Master's. So, we were taught by people basically who had Master's degrees and some of 'em had 5 �started working on their Doctorates. In my class, when I was in 1st grade, I went to school for something like a week and then they told my brother to come and get me and they put me out of school. And I had to go back home. In July of that year, Virginia had passed a law that said that you had to be 6 ½ in order to go to school. And I was born in May so I was not 6 ½ so they put me out of school. So I was a dropout, no, I was a put-out in 1st grade. So, I stayed home with my mother. Ludy, my baby sister, was in kindergarten 'cause she was behind me. She was in Miss Wright's Kindergarten and so she was going to kindergarten so that left me at home with my mother by myself. And did we ever have a good time. She taught me everything she wanted to teach me. I never learned how to print. I've always done cursive writing. I was reading everything that you could read and all of that. And so when I marched up to 1st grade, I went to 1st grade with a fountain pen and a bottle of green ink. The teachers, of course, were wonderful teachers because they let me sit and write all day and I would write and they would put things up on the board and they would put my writing on the board. And they'd come down and see this little girl who was doing all this writing in green ink and a fountain pen. Not being in school helped a whole lot and I think I'm still a proponent of children really maturing before they take on crazy academic stuff. But anyway, that's what happened to me so I didn't get my first entry “bang” into the first grade. But that meant that I was older and so I kinda sailed on through school. When we go to high school, there were other kids similar in terms of age and so we were all accelerated kids for the most part. They decided to let us take 5 classes in high school in order to get a credit each year and that made up for a whole semester and so, we had to go to summer school the summer before our senior year and take an English class and we did that. And that meant that we came out in May, when we would not have come out until that January. So, the whole school system had a flexibility and an encouraging kind of idea. All of our high school teachers, for the most part, as I told you, were just Master teachers and when I went to college, I had my high school notebooks. They would tell us, “When you get to college like with English, you're going to need to know your verbs and your this, that and the other.”. So I had a notebook that would be a record of anybody's grammar book that I took to college with me. I was bored stiff my freshman year in college because I had had all of this at Addison. We had taken – One teacher said I could – One of our Math teachers said, “I'll teach you all a little bit of Calculus.”. We didn't even know what the word meant. They were showing us a little bit of that because we had done Trig, Geometry, and Algebra and all of that – So it was just a different kind of world. Different kind of world. 0.31.14.4 CL: What kind of businesses were around that you all bought your groceries from, your clothes from? Any kind of businesses? FF: We didn't buy our clothes from any store. We had no retail stores of that type but everything else we had, drug stores, the theater. We would go to the Virginia Theater. We could go downtown to the Roanoke Theater as blacks and, of course, you had to go up the steps in the back up there. My father said, “You don't go.” and I would slip and go if I wanted to see something. But his whole Marcus Garby thing, “No, you don't dare do that.”. My mother, of course, was kinda in the middle of the road. She didn't know what to do. My daddy was so strong about it. I'd slip and go down to the Roanoke Theater if I wanted to see a movie. And then be very frightened because then the dark would come and there you were on that back street and you had to go around the corner. I had no business down there and all that kind of good stuff, so I was scared to death. But when I finally got to where the lights were, you know, on Campbell Avenue, I was safe and I would come on home. We had everything basically but not – You had neighborhood grocery stores. In some neighborhoods, they were run by blacks and some neighborhoods like Northeast I think, like on Peach Hill and some of those places. But for the most part, the Syrians – I think that's what you call them. We used to call them the Syrians. They used to own the groceries. They had the grocery stores and all. I can remember the ones where – See, I lived – The streets that I lived on, we were surrounded by whites. We were about the last street 6 �before you got to the West-end in Northwest where black people lived. And my block was the 500 block and so that one block was black. In the back of us was, at that time when I was growing up, was Center Avenue and that 500 block was white. And everything was white up Loudon Avenue all the way up those streets up there. Gilmer Avenue was all white as you went up. So once you did 5th Street, 6th Street, 5th Street where St. Paul's Church is, that's where the blacks were. And they would kinda down on Fairfax. But when you went up – we were just – That's the reason I tell you we don't know where we lived because that one little block was black. So the Syrians on the corner had a store and they had children. And one little Syrian girl, Josephine, was my age and I used to play with Josephine. I spent a lot of time with her. I used to help her with her schoolwork. She went to school. Loudon Avenue School was a white school and that's the only street I lived on. So, I couldn't go up the street. I had to go to Harrison. OK? But she would go to Loudon Avenue whenever her father was in his mood – They were Catholics – He would send her to the Catholic Church but you had to pay to go. So when he was in a bad mood, she went to Loudon Avenue. When he was in a good mood, she went to Catholic School. And I'm still in there teaching her and getting her – helping her with her work and all. So we were friends with the children who were in the neighborhood. So all of them were our friends. We kinda grew up with them. Where I lived and away after school, I didn't live where they lived. Janice and them lived on 8th Street and all that. That's where all our other friends were that I went to school with but we were down in this little area. So, after we left school on Friday, I played with these Syrian kids because I couldn't get to them 'cause I couldn't go out the neighborhood unless it was something special and if I had to go to Harrison School and I saw my friends there and then when I got in high school, anything that went on at the high school, I saw all my friends. But we were down in that little nook. 0.35.39.7 CL: So how did you get your clothes? FF: We bought the clothes up and down – Kiddie Corner. We bought clothes where white folks bought their clothes. You remember Kiddie Corner? We bought all our clothes at Kiddie Corner. So anytime you got your things for Christmas and all – I can remember my girlfriend Doris and one Christmas, we had coats. Mine was brown and her's was blue. We had a dress and her's was – I said, “Oh my goodness”. So we would come out looking just alike. And that was where nice clothes were. You just bought nice clothes. We had beautiful – Roanoke was the center of the retail district of Southwest Virginia. Everything else was kinda hillbilly. Roanoke was the center so you bought beautiful clothes in Roanoke. When I'd buy shoes and all when I was in college, they thought I was from New York, fashion plate. CL: Talk a little bit about your school life. I know you've talked about it. Harrison FF: It was just rich. Harrison Elementary School then to Addison. And many of our teachers were from Virginia State and when I finished high school, the state of Virginia gave 2 scholarships for the valedictorian and the salutatorian for every high school in the state of Virginia. You got to go to a state school. And, of course, blacks only went to Virginia State. So, I was the salutatorian of my class and so I got the state scholarship. When we start talking about how they recognize kids who do well and all that, that was just a rule and that was for black kids or white kids. Of course, we went to Virginia State. So I got that scholarship and went to Virginia State from here. That was one of the scholarships. I got that scholarship and I got the Virginia State Alumni Scholarship of $50. That was a big piece of money for me to have and it helped me a great deal. The school system in Roanoke was rich. It was extremely rich. As I said before, when I got to college, I was shocked at how simple things were. It was just a repeat of what we had done in high school. CL: Continue your education. FF: Huh? CL: Continue about your education. 7 �0.38.27.5 FF: I went to Virginia State as I said. And when I went to Virginia State and stayed 4 years and I majored in Psychology. So, that was an unknown. My mother thought I was going to be a teacher. So everybody through that when I got out of college I was going to teach school. And I got out of college and I don't have a teaching degree and I can't be certified (laughing) and it was at a time when jobs were unheard – you just couldn't find a job. So, all my friends were getting jobs that finished with me. They were getting jobs teaching school and I was ineligible for a job and my mother said, “What did we send you down there for? What is this psychology? I have no idea.”. And the family was very angry with me because I was unemployable. I was willing to work anywhere. I could not find a job. So that summer, I was down on Campbell Avenue and I saw Nadine Young who was a classmate of mine at Virginia State. She lived in Rocky Mount. OK? And so we start talking. I said, “What you gonna do Nadine?”. She said, “I got a job. I'm teaching in Rocky Mount.”. She was a Home-Ec major. I said, “I have not found a job and I don't know what I'm gonna do. I have to go to work.”. She said, “I have a job and maybe you would like this job. Its a job with little crazy children.”. (chuckling) I said, “What?”. She said, “Yeah, I take care of them. I bet you - I'm gonna leave it. I bet you I could get you that job. You meet me.”. And she told me where and we met up and she said, “I'm gonna take you down there.”. It was in Hollins. She said, “I'm gonna take you down. I'm gonna see if I can get her to hire you.”. I went down to Hollins, Virginia, and there was this school. A private school. It was like a farmhouse. A beautiful farmhouse. It sat at the bottom of an apple orchard. It had a little gingerbread house on the side and a beautiful farmhouse. I went down. This lady's name was Mrs. James and she introduced me to Mrs. James. Mrs. James had had a residential school for – we would call them “developmentally disabled children”. OK? When she heard I had a degree in Psychology, she said, “Oh, yes, I'll hire you.”. She hired me for all of $180 a month and I worked on every other Sunday and didn't work on Saturday but worked every other Sunday. This was a residential center for rich white children who were developmentally disabled. One of the Gayles – Lewis-Gayle Hospital – His daughter was there, Theodora. There was a child there who was the, a child of the person who owned Myrtle Beach at that time. They were just wealthy at that time. They were paying something like $2,500 for just tuition. And she fed them. Each one of them had their own pediatrician. A person came and collected their shoes to shine their shoes. One girl wore cashmere sweaters. I'm like 21 years old or so and she wore her cashmere sweaters and dyed-to-match skirts and she was a child who sulked and bellowed and carried on. I would just look at those beautiful cashmere sweaters and want one so badly and there she was just salivating all over these pretty sweaters. I was so jealous of her pretty clothes. (laughing) But anyhow, that was the kind of wealth that they had. We would carry them over to Hollins College to different affairs, to concerts and all of that. They were, when I say developmentally disabled, they had what we would call a stigmata. You could look at them and they had the physical stigmata. Some of them were macrocephalic and they had the large head and small credence and so forth. So they were identifiable. They were children that we would call today developmentally disabled. Anyhow, I was there. I had 4 little boys and in that group was one little boy named Butch and he gave me my first experience with an autistic child. You know how many years ago that was. This whole concept of autism had not even been written about. It was done with this guy – eventually, as I stayed in psychology, I met the person who basically came out with the first research paper on autism. I had these 4 little boys and Butch was the bright one. He obviously was not like the others. So he and I just bonded. He could not speak. He had one underdeveloped eye. He had all the ritualistic behaviors that go along with autism and so forth. But he bonded with me. We just became as one. He was my salvation on this job and all. Of course, she said, “You can't tell people you're teaching. You can't tell people you're teaching because in the state of Virginia, black people can't teach white children – Negros can't teach white children.”. She used that word at that time. “So you'll have to be the companion.”. That was my little job that year. I realized I couldn't save any money making 8 �all of $130 a month. I was giving my momma $50 a month 'cause I was living at home. They took out for Social Security and Income Taxes. I was supposed to be saving money to go to graduate school 'cause I realized you have to have a Master's degree. So, I joined the Army. I saw a poster one day basically before I left State. They were giving commissions to college graduates and you could go into the Army as a 2nd Lieutenant. So I said, “Well, I think I'll do that.”, 'cause I needed to get this money to go to school. I joined the Army and I got a commission. You had to take tests and all of that and I passed all of that stuff. I became one of 10 blacks from all over the country. It was not but 110 people in there and there were 10 of us blacks. Another person was white but – Mary Surettes (??), I need to find her. She's somewhere in this Southwest Virginia area. But Southwest gave two of the women from this state 'cause you could only – every state had 2 women. I went in the military. I stayed as an officer in the Army and I did the whole training bit for other recruits and stayed at Fort Lee. I stayed there. I got promoted to a 1st Lieutenant and then I said, “I can't stay in this all my life. I've got to get busy 'cause I had to become a psychologist.”. So, I resigned my commission and went to graduate school at Virginia State. I resigned my commission, got out of the Army like on a Friday and went to Virginia State on a Monday and I did my Master's degree there. And at the end of that, my mentor had made contact with the person at Crownsville State Hospital in Maryland and had set up a kind of internship. There were very few internships for people with Master's degrees. You had to have a PHD to do an internship. So, I got that. She hooked that up for me and I got the internship. And after that year, I got my Master's, got my internship finished. Then I was employed at Central State Hospital in Petersburg as a Chief Psychologist. I stayed there for 7 years and I left there and went to Virginia State as an assistant professor in the Psych Department. I stayed there for a long time and finally decided that I was getting involved in a lot of political stuff and getting to be very controversial and all and decided I needed my PHD in order to survive 'cause they were going to fire me. (laughing) In fact, they did fire me once, but anyway, they had to rehire me. I said I better get my meal ticket. 0.47.30.6 CL: Around what year was that? FF: That I went back to school? CL: Mm mm. FF: Gone through Civil Rights – We had started Civil Rights – I went back to school in '75. Yeah, because I was getting in serious trouble. My mentor was retiring and she says, “I can't be here to protect you so you better get that degree.”. (laughing) I went back to school and went there on a special kind of scholarship because they had never had any – I went to Kent State and that was just jumping from the frying pan into the fire because this was right after the whole shooting at Kent State. They were still in an uproar over that and I fell right in place with all that protesting and all that marching and living in “tent city” and all that stuff while I was working on my doctorate. I got that and came on back to Virginia State. So that's the end of the education. I also went to – I was a National Science Fellow at Harvard for a summer – 2 summers and I also went to Beloit College as a National Science Fellow and I was out there in Wisconsin and then I went to – Some of my African travels was with the American International Studies – American Group for International Studies and the reason I was telling you about why I loved the mother-child kind of thing because I studied mother-child relationships, parent-child relationships and I went from West Africa to East Africa and worked with that kind of research during that period of time. So then, all of a sudden, I got done and stopped going to school. (chuckling) CL: What other kind of jobs were available when you were in Roanoke? FF: Nothing was available here. CL: For your parents or your neighbors? You mentioned the railroad. FF: Railroad, silk mill. CL: Do you remember when that closed? 9 �0.49.34.2 FF: No. I remember when it closed but I don't the year. But, yeah, the silk mill was a good job and the railroad was a big job and people could make a basic living. Those were the two that I remember most. Of course, a lot of people worked in the hotel industry. 'Cause hotels they had in Roanoke and a lot of people worked there and they had a style of living. My girlfriend's family, they worked in restaurants. They were cooks. Another friend of mine, a young person with me, her father worked at the country club. So those kinds of places were best. Women did domestic work. There were very few jobs for them and you knew if you were going to do anything, you had to go to college or you'd learn a trade. So many of our youngsters – we did have a decent vocational program in high school. Then, we also had that business degree. We had 3 degrees, the academic track and the general vocational and then the business. So many, again, of my friends, they didn't go to college. They were well-equipped to start working and they went to work in Washington D.C. So, they left Roanoke because there were no jobs as secretaries for them. Whereas white kids could come right out of high school and go into it. They were fully capable but those jobs wouldn't hire them. So, segregation hurt a community such as this because the talented people left. The real talented people left. So, whereas you talked about it hurting blacks, it hurt your whole community, all your people in that community because you didn't have the blending in of all people to be all that they could be. They just took their talents and went elsewhere. So, you could go to Washington and you could just meet all those women who just went up the ladder who had learned their business at the high schools here. CL: Tell me about your fond memories of this library which is the Gainsboro Branch. 0.52.03.3 FF: OK. This is my library. As I told you, we always read in my family, whatever. My brothers read. My brothers read those True Confessions and all those old kind of books. We just read and nothing was – I loved the library. It was across the street. When we were talking the other night, I realized that this library was what, '42? And that's the year I went to high school. So we had a good library at Addison. So, I did not spend high school time in this library but my entire elementary school was in that library and it was on the first floor and the Y was upstairs. I can just see it. I can go in the door. Miss Lee was right here. And the children's library was over on the left and that was our little nook and I can go right now and tell you where these books were and all. Everyday in the summer, I would take a bath and I would put on a clean dress. My mother washed and ironed – Well, washed all day Monday and ironed all day Tuesday, the girls clothes. And Wednesday, she ironed all the brother's shirts and daddy's shirts and all the mens clothes. We would have all of our dresses and I would pick me a dress and put it on and walk to the library. And I would have gotten a book and I'm bringing this book back and I would go and I would read, go and get me another book and Miss Lee would close it and I would walk back home. So that was my journey everyday, this little gal would go. I was always by myself. This was my privacy kind of thing. They had a contest in Roanoke that – This was for all children in Roanoke and I was the child that read the largest number of books. So that summer, I read the largest number of books. I got $5 for reading that and I was rich again and I shared. (laughing) I bought a pair of sandals. I bought those sandals because my foot is extremely narrow and I never could buy a sandal that would fit and my daddy would not permit me to buy them but I had my own money so I bought sandals that were too big for me. I thought they were adorable. I bought a pair of skates. I bought everybody in the family an ice cream cone from the Roanoke Dairy. Then, I had a little change left out of my $5. I won that prize. I also reached the point where I had read all of the books in the children's section of the library. So, I just wandered where the next group of books were. So Miss Lee said, “Florence, come out of there.”. I said, “But I want to look to see if I want one of these books.”. So she said, “You can't have those books. Those are books for grown people. Those are adult books and you can't read those books.”. I said, “Well, what am I gonna read?”. And she said, “Well, when we get some more books then you can read them.”. I said, “Well, I need a book tonight.”. She said, “Well, 10 �you can't have a book tonight.”. I said, “But you have to. All of these books are over here and I haven't read them.”. So she told me I couldn't read 'em. She said, “You have to leave the library.” 'cause I was going into a big argument (laughing) and Miss Lee was too sweet for anybody to argue with but I did. I went home and I told my momma that I couldn't go to the library anymore and that Miss Lee said that I couldn't read the books and all of that. So, Miss Lee did call momma and they talked. Miss Lee said that I couldn't read the adult books. So momma said, “I'll see to it that she'll take care of them.”. She said, “No, she's not supposed to read them because she's a child and she wouldn't understand them.”. So momma said, “Well, then, there will be no harm done because she won't understand them and let her think she's reading.”. So, I got into the big children's book. I understood more than that I thought I understood I'm gonna tell you that. I learned a whole lot of stuff. (laughing) But you know they were sanitized back then too. So, what was the big deal? (laughing) 0.56.48.7 CL: Who were the leaders in your community when you were growing up? FF: Hmmm. Our teachers and our preachers. And we knew all the professional people in the community. We knew all of them. So, our teachers were the top leaders and the preachers at the churches and, as I said, we weren't – Well, Sweet Union and Jerusalem were sister churches so that was a real close connection. So, my sister, who was like a surrogate mother went to Sweet Union. And my mother went to Jerusalem. And the first Sunday they did joint communion and one year, one Sunday, like January it would be at Sweet Union and February would be at Jerusalem and they rotated backwards and forwards and so that meant that I eventually learned the kids who lived in West-end and became friends with them also. But the preachers of those churches and all the churches. I guess as a child, you could call the name of every preacher in town because they had an impact on you and your teachers. And I remember Harry Penn who was a dentist and we knew him. We knew all the Downings. You just knew all your professional people. They were part of the community. This thing about having heroes and all of that, they were just people who did things in the community. They were your neighbors. Your mother or father had gone to school with some of them and they were from the community and they were of the community. We knew the man who ran the theater, Mr. Nabors and we knew – that's all that's coming to me now. You knew who owned the drug store. Then, as we grew older, and started having a little night life, we knew all the clubs and all the folks who were in the club and who were involved with that. We just knew everybody and they were just people who did this kind of work and made this kind of contribution. So, I don't think we thought about them in a kinda hero or heroine way because of the interaction, they were just people and they did this kind of thing. You go to college to do this and you do something else to do that and you knew the roots and the pathways and so forth. But the center people in your life were those teachers in that school and I mean they were real teachers. CL: And you had a lot of respect for them didn't you? FF: Well, yes, because they had respect for those children. The community respected them. They helped to make your community. CL: Very good. Did anyone in your family – Were they in the military? Your brothers, sisters? 0.59.49.6 FF: Yeah, my brother. The brother next to me. He's the youngest boy. I had 3 brothers and so my youngest brother maybe, I would say, he must've been 5 or 6 years older than I. He went into the military at age of 18. He was drafted. He was real bright, intellectual, just sharp, bright as he could be. He finished high school and right after high school, he was drafted. OK? We had a big blow-out, he and I, maybe 2 nights before he left. Over something insignificant. We were just fussing and all. He went into the Army and he wrote me a letter, about the first letter that came, he had written to me. He wrote to me. And they had special little envelopes and everything that the military used for them to write on and all that stuff and he wrote me. He said he was so sorry that he had mistreated me and he 11 �hadn't treated me nice before he left and he just wanted me to know that he was sorry and he was going to send me – They made $21 a month – and he says, “I know you're going to college and so I'm going to send you $10 a month out of an allotment, out of my check. I'm not going to send any money to momma. I'm going to send my money to you.”. This was because he was so scared he was going to get killed in the Army because he had been mean to me and so forth. So he said that was the way he thought maybe he could be safe. So he sent me this. I get my first check, 10 whole dollars. I said I have to save my money. Somewhere along the way, I learned about the crash, the big crash of the '30s and when all the banks crashed. I was afraid. I don't think I got that story right. So I was afraid that the banks were going to crash with my money. Somewhere along the way, I learned that the post office – you could put your money in the post office and that would be the Federal Government and the only way you could lose your money was if the whole country went down. I said, “Well, that's where I'm going to put my money.”. So I went down to the main post office and told them I wanted to save this money. I discussed it with my mother. She told me to go on. (chuckling) I went on down there and discussed it. I deposited my $10, my check into the postal savings account. And you had a book and they gave you like a coupon and you put that coupon in your book and every time I would go down, they would put it in there and stamp it. It came every month and I can remember – And I never touched a dime of it. - and when I finally got ready to go to college, I had something like $180, about 18 months, and I had saved my $10 and, child, I had _____. My mother said I could spend something like $40 on clothes and then the rest of the money I was supposed to keep for the tuition to pay each time. So that was my brother and his experience in the Army. Then, my middle brother, went in the same branch of service which was the Ordinance. He was stationed in Camp Gordon, Georgia. He was so mild and very kind of passive and very compassionate. We just kind of ached for him being there because he was smaller than my other brothers in stature. But he was there. He went overseas. In fact, they ended up on the same boat going to overseas and Europe. They were both on the same boat. We didn't realize until they came back. He would come home of furlough and I can remember he had some money. He said, “What you want me to buy you?”. I don't know why but I decided I wanted a pair of riding pants and riding boots. Don't tell me why 'cause I've never been on a horse in my life and never liked any animals and all but for some reason, maybe I read about it in a book. I don't know where I got that image but he did. He bought me these riding pants and these boots and I don't think it was a style. I don't remember anybody else walking around in riding boots. I don't think it was a style. I don't know where I got it from. But anyway, I had 'em, green riding pants and brown boots. And I would shine those boots up and just march all over the place. My other brother was in the Navy. That was my oldest brother. When he got out of the service – He's the one when I was in college, he used to buy my clothes for college. So my brothers did well and were very much a part of Army life but all 3 of them served. And, of course, none of them wanted me to go in the service when I jumped up and decided to go in the service but they didn't want me to go. Good little girls didn't go in the Army. 1.05.32.5 CL: OK. Did I ask any questions that you wanted to answer? Anything else that you want to tell us about your experience in Roanoke or growing up or your parents or just anything you would like to tell us. FF: I think I may have covered. I don't know. CL: What about your artwork? Can you just tell us a little bit about your artwork? FF: I can talk a little bit – tell you a little bit about that because it did start in Roanoke. CL: Its so beautiful. FF: OK. I started embroidery in Vacation Bible School. The piece that I did there was a runner for a hall table. So it was a long scarf. It was blue linen. I liked linen back then. I did it all in white. It was a very, very attractive piece. In Vacation Bible School, you put your artwork up on the last day and people came and all to see it. And that was the piece that I did there. Then, I learned to – I saw a little 12 �girl, little white girl knitting down at NW Pugh. They had the most beautiful threads you ever – just beautiful corners with all this thread. They stacked them in bins on the wall and all this color and I just gravitated to it. And this little girl was just knitting away and the lady was telling her this and she was telling her that and all. I said, “I wonder what is she doing.”. All I could do was just stand and kinda watch. I went home and I told my mother about the little girl and she had these two needles and some thread and she was doing this. I told her, I said, “If I could get me some of those needles and some thread, I could go down there and get her to teach me.”. My mother said, “Well, no, not really. And I don't want you going down there to ask her to do that. But I'm going to see if we can find somebody who knits because I know some women who knit.”. Anyway, this lady did teach me. Momma got this lady and she taught me. It seemed to me, in my thinking at that time, that I wasn't learning fast enough. She wasn't really teaching me the way I wanted to be taught and I wasn't making anything. I didn't know how to take these – She never did teach me how to take the threads off the needles, the stitches off the needle. So anyway, this one day I just kinda stuck my stuff in my book bag. And on my way home from school, I decided I'd go down to NW Pugh. I went down there and that lady was there. So I went up to her and I pulled my stuff out of my book bag and I showed her and asked her could she teach me, show me how to do it. She said yes. And so she went ahead and she showed me and I took some off and she showed me again and she took 'em off. So, she said, “I don't like the way you put them on. Let me show you another way.”. And she showed me the other way. And I went stepping home. I stopped by my uncle's house first and asked him if he had 10 cents for me to get some thread. He said, “Yeah.” and he gave me a dime and I went straight home. Of course my mother she was not happy because I had done what she told me not to do. She was pleased that I had gotten that out of my system. So from there, I got another dime from my uncle and I bought a book and I bought that at Kress's and that book taught you how to knit, how to crochet, how to tat, how to embroidery and cruel was in that book. Every kind of stitch work like that that you could do at that time. Embroidery was there but not cross stitch but that's all cross stitch is is embroidery. Its one-stitching embroidery. I bought that book and found that book. I taught myself how to crochet from that book and I made sweaters and I made scarves and then I made these Corday bags and my mother would line the bags and put the zipper in the bags and all and then we would sell them to neighbors who would pay me for the thread and a little bit more. And I made bags and things for them. And then, from then on, I just kept doing needlework of all types and all varieties and have found it to be a very private satisfying kind of thing. Its very rewarding. I have never been able to draw. I've never been able to paint. Therefore, I see this somewhat as that yearning that I do have to do paint, to do some type of expression of images on canvas if you like. And so the thread gives me that opportunity and the beads and embellishments now. This is the way I create is in this realm and very much so. But I thought art was a waste of time in school. And I thought - little art teachers would come and have us do little stuff in school and I never thought that what we were doing was meaningful. I thought it was a waste of time. I wanted to be doing reading and writing and doing arithmetic and all those other things. I thought that's what school was for. I realized the reason I didn't like it. I couldn't do it. And when people talk about children, “Just try.”. No, I couldn't do that but I can do this. CL: Beautiful. FF: Yeah, I can do this. CL: It is very beautiful. Thank you Dr. Farley. FF: Its nice sitting in this room with all of you and its a joy to be able to – I never thought about bringing – I was never thinking about having any show because I don't think this is art. I didn't think it was until other people have told me that but I guess this will be a very pleasant memory and it kinda ties things together for me since it all started here. And I did have it in the library in Petersburg. Because I had kindly taken Petersburg as my home after I got married and stayed there and invested my adult life there, it was kinda nice to come home. It was really beautiful to come home. And certainly 13 �beautiful to come to the Gainsboro library. (laughing) CL: Well, we thank you for coming to the Gainsboro library. (clapping in background) Thank you so much. This is exquisite. I can't say enough about it and everyone who has been here just love it. They ooh and aah at each piece. So if you have missed the art exhibit, you have missed something. Thank you Dr. Farley. FF: Thank you. 14 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2652/Farley_Florence_26_February_2007.JPG 1276945764b9467c4e566432b5fdf227 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Florence Farley Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Florence Farley Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 26 February 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:12:42 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26 February 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Florence Farley; Carla Lewis; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FarleyFlorence https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2651/HackleyMary_[compressed].mp3 7415ea44cff45013a6044aaa70ca53c8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2651/HackleyMary.pdf 64c8152f0909155fa5b886b3b164a08c PDF Text Text Interviewee: Mary Hackley Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: My name is Alicia Sell. Today is February 14, 2007 and I am interviewing Miss Mary Divers Hackley and we are at the Gainsboro Library. How are you today Miss Hackley? MH: I'm fine, thank you. AS: Thank you for being here. MH: Thank you. AS: We're going to start with some background questions about you. Can you tell me when and where you were born? MH: I was born in Bedford, Virginia, January, 1937. AS: When did you move to Gainsboro? When did your family move here? MH: My family moved to Roanoke when I was almost 7. We lived on Downing Street in the house that's now across the street from the School Administration Building. The first house was over the hill from that one and then we moved in to that house, same place, same area. AS: What did your parents do for a living? MH: My mother was a mom. She was home. So, her job was raising 7 children. My father worked for the Norfolk and Western Railroad. He was a chef/cook for the railroad for a long, long time. Then when I graduated from high school and went to college, my father was employed by Roanoke City Schools and later on, he was employed by OIC, Opportunity Industrialization Center. Then he went back to the Norfolk and Western and he retired from there. AS: You said you had 7 brothers and sisters, where do you fall into that? MH: I'm the oldest. AS: You're the oldest. MH: There were really 8 of us but I had a young sister who passed when she was a little over a year old. We were still in Bedford at that time. So, I am the oldest of the group. AS: Wow. And what were your mother and father's names? MH: My mother was Mary Rucker and my dad's John W. Divers. AS: And Rucker is your mother's maiden name? MH: Yes. AS: OK. Can you describe your house for us? For instance, was it brick? Did you have a garden? MH: The first house was 2 story. We had a garden at the first one and it was part brick, part wood. And then the next house in the same area as I told you is still standing, it was brick, completely brick. We had a small garden. That yard was not as large as the others but I can't remember – We had a lot of trees. There were cedar trees along the front and in the back, you had fruit trees, Apple, Apricot – there was never a Pear tree I don't think. There were Apricot and Apple trees. I can remember that. AS: Would you sell the fruit for profit at all or was it just for your family? MH: It was just for the family. There were enough of us that (laughing heartily). Everything we had, it was for our survival. We didn't sell them. AS: Did you have any animals that you had? MH: No. My mother at one time had a dog she loved. My grandmother and a friend of hers, they – I remember now, they used to raise hogs back over where Lincoln Terrace School and the old cemetery in that area. That used to be a place where people could store – They were what you would call hog pens at that time and people just put their hogs there. They didn't live in that area but they would go over and feed and all that good stuff. And then, when it was hog killing time, it was interesting. I don't care to remember it. (laughing heartily) But my grandmother was involved in that and a friend of hers. AS: And did they live here in Roanoke? 1 �MH: Mm mm. All in the same area. We were all in the same area. At a time there, we were all in the same house, my grandmother, my mom, my dad, my momma's children and an aunt. It was a huge house. We were family people. AS: And you said what kind of work your family did. So did your grandmother help take care of all of the children? 0.04.40.3 MH: No. My mother did that. My grandmother, believe it or not, she worked. She was a domestic and she worked. My grandmother would catch the bus in the mornings and go downtown and change and go to wherever she was working. At that time, I can remember that my grandmother was working for a family of the Hurt family, Dr. Hurt and their family which was across the bridge which is now the Memorial Bridge, up on that hill. She'd catch the bus and go to work and then she'd come back. She'd catch that bus from there and downtown and then back home. We'd always be waiting for her to get off the bus because no matter how tired she was, she'd always have something good for us in her shopping bags. My grandmother's family descended from the Blackfoot Indian Tribe so you could see that in her. She was very short, long hair. She was a plump little lady but I still have a picture of her getting off the bus with her shopping bags. AS: And was that your mother's - ? MH: That was my dad's mom. I never knew my mother's mom. She passed before I got to know her. We say pictures of her. She was a stately lady. She was short too in stature. So was my mom's dad. But we didn't know our grandparents on my mother's side but mom gave us the history. That's why the oral history is so important but she had pictures and she would tell us about them. AS: Let's talk a little bit about your school life now. Where did you attend school? Elementary, middle and high school. MH: Well, I started in Bedford because at that time, we didn't have kindergarten for us. You can notice my age, I'm 70, so I didn't start like early. So, you went directly to the 1st grade. I went to 1st grade when I was 6. Then, we moved and I was due to go into the 2nd grade. When I came to Roanoke, they put me back a grade. I couldn't go to 2nd grade because they said, “No, you go to the 1st grade.”. But that was the best thing that happened to me. And I went to Gainsboro. That was a wonderful thing that happened for me. I was upset because I was put back but when my father took me to the school, its still quite new in my mind, I was sitting in the hall with my dad and this very tall, stately lady came out and she asked my name. And I told her my name was Mary. I was an unhappy kid. I can still feel that. She asked me, she said, “Do you like school?”. And I said, “No.” I didn't like school at all. I would make any kind of excuse in Bedford not to go. She went into the principal's office and she came back out and she told dad, she said, “I want your daughter in my room.”. Her name was Mrs. Marie Lashly. I found out later that the principal was her sister, Miss Queen Williams. That started my successful school year. I loved Miss Lashly. She told me later that she just saw something in me and she just wanted to have a part of that. At the time, I couldn't see anything in me except being a scared little girl. I loved school. I was in Gainsboro up until 6th grade. No, 4th grade, I'm sorry. And that's when they closed Gainsboro and we went to Loudon School. Its interesting because there was no such thing as an attendance zone that everybody holds so sacred now. No one really watched where we were going to school. So, I loved the teachers and so forth in school. My parents allowed me and my brother to go to Loudon, to move with the school. And we walked from, if you can imagine where the School Administration Building is now, we walked over to Loudon Avenue to school everyday, snow, rain, sleet, did not matter 'cause nobody closed schools. Some days mom would give us a dime and we'd ride the city bus, but most of the time, we would walk. We'd get to school on time and I was at Loudon up until time to go to 7th grade and then everybody from Loudon had to go to Harrison. And I went to Harrison 7th and 8th grade and then my 9th grade here. I was the 1st – Our class was the first freshman class to move into the new Lucy Addison High School that's now the Magnate School. 2 �AS: Wow. That's wonderful. Did you go to college after that? MH: After high school? Yes. I went to Virginia State. At that time it was Virginia State College in Petersburg. I went there – I graduated from high school in 1956 and in the fall of '56, I went to State. AS: And what was your degree in? MH: My degree at State was Elementary Education. AS: Did anyone else in your family attend college or was it just you? 0.09.53.3 MH: After me, I was the beginning for my family. I can understand from my dad, on his side, there were some aunts who had gone to school but I think I was the initiator of that trend and, being the oldest in my family, which of course set the stage for the rest of my sisters and brothers. My parents – My mom was the disciplinarian. She was the one that set the values. My dad was always for education. He'd push us for that. He would work many-a-job so that we could go. All of us, all 7 of us, in some form had advanced education. My brothers went to trade school, vocation school, culinary school and my sisters, we all have college degrees. AS: That's wonderful. MH: It is when you think of it. And my dad, he worked in people's yards. He cleaned the windows at GE and whatever he had to do to send us to school. Because, at the time, there were not many scholarships available for African-American young people. AS: Let's talk about your life at home. Did you gather around the radio in the evening or do you remember when you got your first telephone or refrigerator or did you always have those items in your house. MH: We did not always have those. (laughing) When I lived in Bedford, we did not. We had a radio. My mother would always allow us to listen to “Let's Pretend”. We loved that show 'cause that's where our imagination was in – Plus, my mother was a great story teller. And even when we moved, we always had good times with mom because dad was always working. With mom, we would always have story time. My mother would always play “Jack rocks” with us. That's when she would keep us up with our own family history to let us know about our families because we didn't know many of our aunts or uncles on mom's side either. It was a time when we had our bible readings. We had to learn bible verses. Mom would always tell us about her belief system even though she couldn't go to church all the time. She was working at home with all the kids but she had a strong belief system and she instilled that in us. Being the oldest, there were certain expectations of me as far as my younger sisters and brothers were concerned but nobody was ever treated differently. We still are not. That was equatable. But mom and dad always looked at us as individuals. My mother would always say, she said, “I have a child for everything that I need.”. Our home was great. When dad would travel on the railroad, whenever he was home, we were always the center of attention. And my mother dedicated her life to us. And we thrived on that. We never worried about what was segregated and what was not because in our existence at home, we were taught just how significant and important as individuals, as people. And we knew there was that barrier. We knew there was that separation but our parents never allowed that to become a limitation to us because they didn't themselves. AS: Did you ever get to travel with your father on the railroad? MH: No. That was not a - When I went to State, I rode the train to State other than the first time my father would take me at the opening, like in the fall, daddy would drive me to State but when I would come home for Thanksgiving and Christmas, I would ride the train. I would always be on the train that some other crew was on that worked with my dad. So, I always had the treat – They would always come back and find me and take me to the dining car and I'd always get dinner and whatever. (laughing) And when I was at State, the gentlemen from the train when they would have a run through Petersburg and that was a stop for them, they'd come up on the campus and bring me fruit and a sandwich. Yeah. 3 �AS: That's very nice. MH: People took care of other people's children and they had an interest in you. They knew that my family had great expectations of us and people who knew my family bought into those expectations. They were supportive. AS: Do you remember sitting on the porch? Did your house have a porch and if it did, did you sit on the porch in the evening to talk with your neighbors? 0.15.00.2 MH: Both our houses had porches. Yes. That was the fun of it all. We didn't have many neighbors around us but we could always go from one house to the next house. Mom limited our visitation but there were certain places that we could go and talk to people. Every neighbor had an interest in everybody else's child. I couldn't misbehave at Mrs. Max's house or Mrs. O'Neil's home any more than I could in my own. That was the way across the community though. When you say neighbors and neighborhood, one thing about Gainsboro, the entire area was your neighborhood. It wasn't just the house next door or across the street. My neighborhood to me was all the way across this hill, down over to Henry Street because everybody knew everybody else's family or some parts of their family. And everybody knew which family the children belonged to. (laughing heartily) I hope I answered your question on that. (chuckling) AS: Yes, you did. What chores did you have to do around the house or in your neighborhood? MH: Well, we always had to keep our own room. Mom would assign us things like dishes. There were dishes to do. Sweep the sidewalk, make sure trash wasn't there. Our main thing was that we had to look after each other. And with 7 sisters and brothers, until I went to college, that was our main chore. Helping with homework. Making sure that everybody did what they were supposed to do but most of us did. We had those things. Its just like any chores that children should have today, many of them don't. (chuckle) AS: You talked a lot about how your mom was a good story teller. What kind of stories were passed down through your generations? For instance, did your mother tell you stories about the Civil War or slavery or did you have a favorite family recipe that she passed down. MH: My mom did not talk in those areas. My mother's stories were mostly wonderful fairy tales, yarns of what would be, make believe, possibilities. She would tell us about her family. My mother had a sister. We didn't know her but we saw a picture of her and her name was Minnie. Minnie was a beautiful woman and had long black hair down her back. She ran away and joined the circus. And my mother would tell us about her. We never met her but mom would tell us that she ran away one year when the circus came to Bedford – Ringling Brothers by the way. They'd hear from her for a while but after a while they didn't hear from her anymore. She would tell us about so many other things with the family. Mostly, mom loved poetry. She loved nursery rhymes. That's how we learned our nursery rhymes. Like I said before, our bible stories, we got them from mom early on. As far as a recipe, it wasn't necessarily so much a recipe because we were a poor family but we didn't know it. My mother could take nothing and make marvelous stuff. Til this day, I have not tasted a cake like my mother would make. I would often wonder how she did it because it wasn't really a cake, it was a pudding but you could slice it and it was just wonderful. We laughed. We said possibly because mom didn't have much to put in it so she just came up with her own. And we would all look forward to what she would call “Ash Cakes” where you would fix your cornbread, corn pones or your regular bread over the ashes of the coal. And she would make what you would call “ho cakes” and biscuits. I'm not a biscuit eater. I don't care much for the inside of a biscuit. So where you would cut your biscuit out, that little part that's left, my mother would flatten that down and bake that for me. That would be my bread because she knew I didn't care much for biscuits. I still don't to this day. But as far as handing down recipes from mom, mom just cooked everything well. That's all I can say. (laughing) AS: Did you have to help her in the kitchen? 4 �0.19.45.8 MH: Sometimes we did, sometimes not. Sometimes not. My mother – There were special things that we did. As I said before, our jobs were to take care of each other and keep each other out of her way when she was in the kitchen. But most of the time, we were around her in the kitchen. She'd have us to husk corn, stuff like that. She'd send us to pick blackberries. That was down from where the School Administration Building is, if you can imagine, all the way down there, there was nothing but woods and there were blackberry bushes in there. We'd go down and get pans of blackberries and bring those back, wash those, make sure we didn't eat more than we had in the pan. She would do blackberry pies for us. Sometimes, she would let us roll the dough and that kind of thing. We'd keep the dishes done. Mom was self-sufficient. She felt that she had her role and those were the things that she held us responsible for. We were not just bound to the kitchen. AS: Because you were the oldest, did you have to help a lot with your younger brothers and sisters just making sure that they were not getting into trouble or getting them ready in the morning? MH: Yeah. Safety reasons. I had to look after them. We always helped each other as far as getting dressed and so forth. I was responsible for my brother when we would walk to school. My brother used to call me “sister”. And he would get into trouble in school. The principal would call me, “Mary, come see me because your brother Ronnie, he's so and so.”. He'd always beg me, he'd say, “Sister please don't tell momma. Please don't tell momma.”. I said, “I have to tell momma 'cause momma will find out.”. (laughing) Yeah, that was my job. To this day, I still take it as mine even thought they have grown. My baby sister is in her 50s but I still feel responsible for them. AS: Did you or a spouse or any of your siblings or children ever serve in the military? MH: My husband. My husband was in the service. He was in the service during the Korean Conflict. When he graduated from high school, he went to Howard University for maybe a year. Then he left there to join the service. He was in the service for 4 years I think. AS: So were you married after his service time then? MH: When my husband was in the service, I was in high school. AS: Oh, OK. MH: Yeah. AS: So you were not married yet then? MH: Not yet. AS: What businesses or shops around town did your family go to? Did you use the market downtown? MH: Used the market, yes. The drug store. AS: Do you remember the name of the drug store? MH: Brooks Drug Store on Henry Street. We also went to Davis Drug Store over here. I was allowed to go there after a while. We went mostly to the market downtown. We also had stores along our street. We'd walk to like Weebee's, Monseurs Grocery, Gilly Hollins Store, a store where there were wonderful hot dogs Mr. Chili Bean, all along that street. Parents used Johnson's Realtor because that's where we rented our house from. There was a Clark's Photo where our pictures would get made, have it done there. Mr. Sunny Hale had his own little business of photography. He would take pictures especially of us at senior prom and graduation, that kind of thing. I'm trying to think. We would go to the Virginia Theater, the Kaiser Record Shop we would frequent sometimes. Green's Shoe Store. I'm sure I'm missing a lot but those were some. AS: OK. Do you have a favorite childhood memory? For example, like a favorite holiday event, or a favorite trip that you took as a family or a favorite gift that you ever received? MH: I could give you something in all of those categories that would be favorites. (laughing) AS: That would be fine. 0.24.26.5 MH: Christmas is always my favorite and has always been my favorite. The magic of Christmas for 5 �me was back when I was a child living in Bedford. We lived in what was known as a “Shotgun House”. It was just a straight house. You may have 2 rooms on this side and 2 rooms on that side and a small kitchen, about 4 rooms if that many. And I can remember on Christmas Eve, this room was right off from our kitchen, momma would keep a whole of stuff in there. It was always cluttered. But I can remember on Christmas Eve, our going to that and, at that time, it was my brother. It was just the 2 of us, me and my two brothers. We just knew that our parents would do the best that they could for us. Momma would always say, “We don't know what Santa Claus will bring but whatever it is, we know you will enjoy it.”. We were thinking, “Whatever you do is fine for us.”. We didn't expect a lot but I can remember waking up that morning, this room was full of toys. There was a swing set assembled in this room, an outdoor swing set. And hanging off that swing set, there were clothes, bags of apples and oranges and nuts. I still have that picture, everything was to the right in this room. A tricycle and a wagon. And the magic of it all. And after I got grown and understood what Santa Claus was which I still believe in, the spirit of it is magnificent, to think that my father could do that all alone. (pause) I'm sorry. (spoken softly) Christmas is a favorite for me because of the story of why we celebrate. And I'm a Christian, I'm a believer. So, I believe we had a Christ child. But just seeing what all of that meant in your family and how your family could love you and care for you so much that in spite of the fact that you knew that you did not have what other people had as far as material things were concerned. We were rich as far as a love of people and that always stands out for me every time I celebrate Christmas I think about that. You asked about a favorite gift. I think of a favorite gift as far as what my dad gave me when I was in high school was a watch. And at the time, everybody was buying Luton (??) coats for their kids and I knew my father and trying to support all of us, he couldn't do that. My girlfriends had 'em. But my dad gave me one one Christmas while I was in high school. My husband, my favorite gift from his was when he was in Korea and – No, he was in Panama, he was in Panama, and he sent me this album with these paintings. It was a painted album on the front and a jewelry box. And in the jewelry box, he had put a small heart in it and he had sent that back to me. They're still favorites. I don't know. There are so many good things in my life that its just hard for me to separate certain things but those stand out. AS: Those are wonderful stories. MH: They stand out with me. (clearing throat softly) AS: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? You had your education and you got a degree in teaching. Were you a teacher? MH: Mm mm. I taught for 22 years. But long before that, while I was working to go through school, I worked for the Parks and Rec Department at Summer Camps. I worked with Miss Nettie Trainam (??) and Bernard Robinson in the Summer Camps. Then, when I came home from – When I graduated from college and waiting for my job to start with Roanoke City, I worked at Hotel Roanoke in the dining room. That was a wonderful experience for me even though I was a college grad. I was a sheltered person. So to be out in that world was really a shocker for me. When I started working for Roanoke City, I worked as a classroom teacher for 22 years. Then, after that, I was a principal of schools – a couple of schools. I went to Central Office as a supervisor. One year, I was brought out of Central Office to open a school, Hurt Park Elementary School. The principal had retired or taken a leave of absence at the last minute so I had two jobs. I was the elementary supervisor in the afternoons and I was principal of this school during the day for a year and then I went back to central as supervisor. Then, I was promoted to director and then later as Executive of Elementary Programs. I was with the city schools for 42 years. Loved every moment. I left that job loving it. I still love it. Its a highlight of my life that I could do that. 0.30.16.9 AS: Do you still volunteer with the schools at all? MH: Yes. I volunteer some and then I have what we call the Early Retirement Program which allows 6 �me 20 days where I can work in schools and you can get a supplement. I do that but I also do extra things. I still conference with principals a lot when they call and ask my advice on some things. I spend my time reading. The library at the new Roanoke Academy for Math and Science, that was a highlight for me of my last year because I had great input into the design of that school. The community and with the architects. And to see that come to light and to go by there now, its just a joy for me to know that I had anything to do with it and in that school. The community and the staff named the library after me in that school. So, I read in that school a lot in the library. I love it. AS: That's wonderful. Did you use the Gainsboro Library? MH: Oh yes. When I was in high school, I was a volunteer here my freshman year, my 9th grade year. Miss Lee and a lady named Beatrice Mitchell but we called her “Sugar”. They were such wonderful people. I would come here after school and shelve books. Sometimes when new books would come in, I would unpack those books. I had to get my homework done before I could do any of it though. At that time, I was courting Mr. Hackley. He was a senior in high school. My parents did not allow me to have company very much but they did allow him to come to see me some. But he would come by the library here and Miss Lee and Sugar would tell us, “OK. You can have 10 minutes and that's all. You will not go in those shelves. You will sit right out here where we can see you.”. He would come by and we would talk for a little while. Sometimes, he'd bring me milkshakes and they would tell me – You couldn't eat out there so they let us go back in their office and she'd let me drink my milkshake and talk to William for a little while and then she'd tell him, “Its time for you to go young man. She's working.”. We courted in this library. This library represents, I don't know, just giving a stability to us and so forth. So I would come to work looking forward to his coming by (laughing) to see me. And surprisingly now, its amazing how things – If you're facing the library on the right hand side, there used to be a huge evergreen tree. I found out later my son, he courted his wife in junior high school at that time. And we would allow him to ride his bike down to her house which is over here on MacDowell Avenue. He'd ride his bike. He'd stop at the Church's Chicken, pick up 2 pieces of chicken, ride his bike. She'd get her bike. They'd ride down here, sit under this tree for a picnic beside this library and look at the old Claytor House and dream about how they could get married and redo that house, remodel that house. The library represents a lot for me and my family. But William Hackley and I, it makes me smile. (laughing) AS: That's a wonderful story. Its a wonderful Valentine's story. MH: With the drug store being across the street. He would stop by there with the football team 'cause he was the quarterback on the football team. He would stop over there and I'd know – I'd be working at the desk and I'd see 'em all get out and I knew he'd be coming pretty soon. (laughing) AS: Who were some of the strong community leaders in Gainsboro that you can remember? MH: That I can remember. I would say our ministers in our churches. I'm thinking back to Reverend James who was at First Baptist. Reverend Fredrick Sampson at High Street when I was young. I adored him. He was one of the patrons for the library who would come in that I would see. Mr. Holland. 0.35.05.2 AS: Is that Alfonzo Holland? MH: Yes. His generation – I know I'm getting up but his generation, you look at him and my dad – Those men were always in a shirt and tie and always dressed. Every time you see them, no matter what. When my father would get off from work and he'd walk home up the back alley. He'd be dressed in a shirt and a tie and hat and shined shoes. That was just part of them. I was thinking that when I think about Mr. Holland. Of course when you say Gainsboro, you would – Dr. Harry Penn, I just think was everywhere. I'm pulling a blank because there's a child. The minister in my church which was right beside Gainsboro School, Mount Zion African Methodist Episcopal Church which we're celebrating our 125th year this year. The minister up there, Reverend Paul Calwell. Miss Lee, 7 �Sugar. The neighbors. AS: Was Miss Lee a role model for you? MH: Oh, indeed. She and Sugar. Miss Lee was so – such a stately lady but she was so warm and caring and she set examples for you. She was always in the mode of preparation. She always wanted you to be ready for no matter what. I remember when I graduated from high school and I was to be one of the speakers for graduation and I had written my speech and my teacher, Miss Hattie Austin, had critiqued and critiqued and critiqued it. She was wonderful. I can remember walking in here to work and Miss Lee asked me, she said, “Have you gotten your speech ready?”. And I said, “Yes.”. She said, “That's good.”. And then a little bit later, she came and she said, “Mary, come back.”. She had set up this area and she said, “I want you to deliver it now.”. I had to do that for her. (laughing) She and Sugar were my audience, you know. Everybody cared that you did things well. Even though you had families that were the families that stood out in the community, there were no insignificant people as far as I was concerned and growing up because people just took time for you. I can still see Miss Lee smile. She was. One of many. (laughing) One of many. AS: What kind of cultural events happened in Gainsboro? Do you remember entertainers who came to the Dumas? Did you ever go see entertainers? MH: I didn't. I was a child then but my father would tell me, in learning my history, I knew that Duke Ellington would come. I knew that. Louis Armstrong, I knew that. We couldn't go. I mean, children just did not but we knew that our parents and adults did and later on, as we found out how famous these people were and then we would talk with Mr. and Mrs. Barlow after we had gotten grown. Sometimes, my husband and I would go by and they would let us eat in the dining room or someone at the table where either Louis Armstrong sat to eat or somebody. It was always that kinda – We would hear about all the number of people who would come through. AS: Did your mom and dad, did they ever go to performances? MH: My father did. My mother was not a goer. Was not. And when my father was in town, he and some of his friends would but my mom was not much – My mother was a home body until we were up, up – I mean, I was good and grown and then when my sisters, my younger sisters, 3 younger sisters were in school. Momma became very active with the PTA but before that, my mother was right at home. (laughing) AS: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? MH: Drastically. (pause) AS: Has it gotten better? Has it gotten worse? Are there some things that you miss about it? 0.39.39.1 MH: There are some things that I miss. When you start tearing down buildings and those kind of things. In your young life, you're not quite sure what it all means but I can remember the demolition of Gainsboro School. I can remember when my church was torn down. We left it before it was torn down but it was in order for all this. I can remember some of my friends out of Northeast, their homes, losing their homes. My aunt who lived in the area where the civic center is now, them losing their homes. I believe in improvement. I do not believe in the displacement of people or misleading of people which is what happened. People were told one thing and other things happened for them. I miss – Its a beautiful area now but I have to really stop and think where my childhood is in all of this and the only thing that I can use as a gauge is this library and St. Andrew's Church and then I try to see how did I walk around the curve to go to my church. Where were the stores when I would come across the hill? Where Orange Avenue is now, I have to stop and think how the high school yard came all the way down to the park and then you had the creek that is now under the highway that you could throw rocks in that creek going past there. You have to really, really get in your head where all of this is because before my husband started paying any attention to me, I was at Harrison and I would walk from Harrison home but I would time it because I had noticed him at my church. He was a church member 8 �but he never paid any attention to me 'cause I mean he was in high school and I was a kid. But I would wait and slow my steps so that I made sure that he was coming across the hill about the same time I was. (laughing) At the corner at Mr. Guinea's Store ______ so I could go home ___________. (laughing) I have to stop sometimes to think of where that is, where my childhood is, where the courting of my husband is and that's why this library is the central place for me to get my bearing when I come across here. AS: The physical portion of what Gainsboro was is very different from what it was. MH: Very much so but if you listen to people, the people who are still here, and people who have been here, Gainsboro is still Gainsboro. I mean, in my mind, I see all of these places. I listen to “Looking Back” on channel 9 the other night with interviews being done with Helen Davis and her sister Miss Bethel and all of the people talking about what happened in this area. Gainsboro is alive to me. I know the physical pieces that we had, no. But to me, Gainsboro will always be in existence as long – The Gainsboro then will always be as long as we have people who can recall, who can bring up just a little bit. I know I have missed a lot in thinking because its so much that was chalked into that. Because see this is where we lived. This is where we shopped. This is where we went to school. This is where we got our encouragement and so you can't really say that Gainsboro is gone. It isn't. So that when I look at signs that say Historical Gainsboro, that's me. That's a whole lot of people. Its people, its not the facilities. Not to me. AS: Is the sense of community the same as it was? MH: By my not living here, but I would think that it is as I worked in the school system and talked with people here. Yes, there is still that caring piece. I think so. You listen to Miss Bethel and Miss Davis as they are talking and they're still living around – I mean there's that love and respect for the people who lived here. For the families of people who lived here. I could call them on the phone right now and the greeting would be to me would be as though I was still a child because they'll call me Mary Elizabeth and it would go on as though I have not grown up at all. I think there's still that closeness. I do. I think you have some people who live in the area now who don't know the history and would not have the same respect I would say. And I don't know if I want to say respect or not. Would not have that same caring for the area as somebody who grew up in it. But I think that that sense of closeness is fostered because as we look at the houses that have come up since then, I see people who care about their property and in the summer, I see people out talking to each other. Its not as much comradery that we used to have but its still there. Its still there. 0.45.33.6 AS: How was your life or the life of Gainsboro, how was the community affected by segregation and the Civil Rights Movement? MH: We know there was a separation and we knew the Henry Street Bridge was the separation for us as far as downtown. But I think we were self-sufficient people. We relied upon each other. We knew there were inequities. There are still are in some situations. I don't know if it – As far as the Civil Rights Movement is concerned, to me and I was young then and in school, but I think growing up was one of the quietest places for desegregation to occur but I do know that there were many-a-meeting and there were people coming to the table. I know it was gradual. I was in the schools. As I said I was teaching and taught in a segregated school and I was part of committees as far as when it got time for schools to desegregate. We had to go to meetings together with our Caucasian counterparts at Jefferson in order to establish this relationship. AS: Was that difficult? MH: Well it was difficult. There was that separatism when you would go to the meetings. You'd have your African-American teachers and administration and you'd have your Caucasian ones. There were activities that would bring people together but there was still that hesitancy on both parts. The dislike on one part and on the other, the lack of trust on another. The desegregation of schools was done 9 �gradually. I think that was a wise thing. My husband was a part of that. He was moved from Addison to Lee Junior for that purpose because we had African-American students in that school. But then as it gradually moved on and people began to work more and more together. I think it took a long time for people to want to send their children to a different place out of the community. Our schools suffered because we lost many of our schools in the process. As we look around us now, you don't see a school, other than the newer ones, Lincoln Terrace that's in the neighborhood and Addison. The old Addison is the Administration Building but you don't see any other place that we can point to for our children and say, “Hey this is a historical site.” or “This is what happened with it.” and I think there will always be scars from that. I'm not sure that I'm answering your question. The only thing that I can say was it was a difficult time for everyone. And it was a difficult time for everyone because, 1, we had lived separately. We knew that by law we had to live separately. We knew that people had formed their opinions of us just as we had formed our opinions. But still, I feel there was a strain no matter how minute it was because of certain leaders in the city wanting things to go well. There was still that strain of, very thin but it was there, of respect of person and I think as people worked together, it became more and more evident. Now you may find some, if somebody else was sitting at this table with me, they would disagree. But I think it depends upon what you are looking for. Are we where we would like to be in this city as far as _____? No. We're not there. There are still things that we look at and I look at Northwest Roanoke. I don't feel that the city pays as much attention to what is happening in that area. But its a good area of the city. But then I can't say that I think part of that is our fault because we have to be careful who we put in office in city government so that we will know that we are putting people in office who care about the total city and not just lip service for certain parts. Articulation and operation are two different things to me. And I think going back to the Civil Rights and segregation piece, I think there will always be a mark on that and I think it all stems from what happened with Gainsboro. People liked Gainsboro. They wanted the best. Why couldn't renovation come in with folks who had worked so hard for their homes but it didn't. So if it didn't then why weren't we honest with people. So you're still in the city to me. You still have a trust issue. And I think we will always have that trust issue. I'm not quite sure I answered your question because its very – I'm at a different place on this. I know how protected I was as a child. I know how my values, the values that are a part of me and I was taught to accept people as human beings but some of us have not gotten to the place where we get where we can do that. We still see a color and we still see situations. But as far as Roanoke is concerned, if there ever was a place, ever a place, with opportunity to become a model as to how a city can meld and become one, this is it. 0.52.34.1 AS: That's wonderful. MH: This is it. But we're nowhere near that but I think it is. AS: You think we can achieve that? MH: I do. I think we're believers and people who will be above board and honest. It doesn't mean that you always have to agree because you will always have naysayers but if there is ever a place with that opportunity, I feel this city – I always felt this city is the place to do it. Just go, if we go out to any of our social events. Let's say you go to the market on a Saturday or a Friday evening and you're there and people are there for dinner and whatever. I'm just as comfortable stopping and speaking to people at another table. I don't know them, they don't know me. People will take – if somebody breaks the barrier, they will take time to talk and I think that's where it is. I just don't think people want to step over that line 'cause it takes everybody to do that. I have to do it. Sometimes, you have to do it and we can't fear it. Am I thinking that segregation still does not exist in the hearts of some people? Yes, it does. Yes it does. But we can't change that. The only thing we can do is change the situation so that their hearts can change. But as far as desegregating the area and trying not to have the black/white thing, Roanoke is a prime place. Twenty years from now, somebody may disagree with me. (laughing) 10 �AS: Well, we're actually pretty much at the end of the interview but I wanted to close you by asking you, is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to share with us? MH: I don't think so. I'm just – I'm delighted to be a part of this city. I'm so grateful to be an AfricanAmerican female who had my upbringing here with a cadre of people who just cared. Schools where you had teachers, churches where you had people who cared what happened to you. They helped you develop that talent no matter what it was. To have experienced families and being a part of a family where there was so much love and understanding and nurturing and then to have, to seek to be a part of that in other families, my friends and so forth. To have people like Miss Lee and Sugar and this library to just ground me and to look back on just my life and looking back on the life that my husband and I had as young people and to just be able to feel good about it. And when I stop to think about the good things, it makes me smile. It makes me feel so good. My memories are great. Everything that happened, was it all wonderful? No. I had my bouts with the segregation piece. I've run up into some terrible things but I think my parents and my church just instilled in me that you get stronger because of that. AS: That's wonderful. I just want to thank you for participating. MH: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so glad you all had me. (lilting laughter) 11 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2651/Hackley_Mary_10_February_2005.JPG b8ead3e9524d96e464f039f3273f1718 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mary Divers Hackley Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mary Divers Hackley Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 14 February 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 56:24 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 14 February 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mary Divers Hackley; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HackleyMary https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2650/SpoelmaElizabeth_[compressed].mp3 626991f7331669a7852e9a0a0062411c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2650/SpoelmaElizabeth.pdf 02f4bbec01f858b792b4fc61840bb23a PDF Text Text Interviewee: Elizabeth Spoelma Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: My name is Alicia Sell. Today is February 7, 2007. I am interviewing Miss Elizabeth Spoelma at Friendship Manor in the Chapel facility here. We're going to start by asking some background questions about you Elizabeth. Can you tell me when and where you were born. ES: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, 8/15/18. AS: How long did you live in Roanoke for? ES: From the time I was born until I was about 8 years old. AS: What streets did you live on when you were here in Roanoke? ES: Up until 1929, I lived on Bullit Avenue in Southeast. And then after that, for financial reasons, my mother sold our house and then we lived in Northwest – I think it was on – No, it would've been Southwest and I believe it was on Marshall Avenue. And that's about the only one I remember. AS: Can you tell me about your parents? What were your mother's and father's names? ES: My father was William N. Franklin. My mother was Lydia E. Sprinkle. AS: And were they born in Roanoke? ES: No. My father was born most likely in Bedford County and my mother was born down in Shenandoah Valley – Harrisonburg – What's the county there? Rockingham I believe. And after that then she lived over in the Shenandoah Valley, in the vicinity of the Shenandoah. AS: What kind of work did your father and mother do here? ES: My mother didn't do anything but keep house and try to keep track of me. Other than that, my dad was a sheet metal contractor. He did roofing, metal ceilings and sidings, corrugated tin buildings and he did many, many buildings in Roanoke. He put the metal ceilings in all the Kress's buildings that used to be here. It was a department store years ago and he put all the metal ceilings in those. He had a crew – Well, he had two crews of men that worked for him. He had a truck. He had his own little shop where he took care of things – Two of them. In fact, one was up in our backyard. And the other one was down on 8th Street in Southeast. He also did work out of the state of Virginia and also in Virginia out of the city of Roanoke. AS: Did he travel a lot to do that work? ES: Not a lot but he did travel, yes. I have souvenirs that he would bring back from different places he went. Like when he had a job in Norfolk, which I don't know what the particular job nor who it was for but he brought souvenirs for my mom and I and I have a big, pretty shell right now. It was for my mother but I always claimed it and I still have it. He was in Chicago that I know of. He worked in Carolina, High Point, North Carolina. He worked over in West Virginia in Charleston, West Virginia. He was in New York. Those are just places I remember off the top of my head without having a lot of detail. AS: Did you ever go on trips with him ever or? ES: Not for his work but we did go on trips, yes. AS: Did you have brothers and sisters? ES: No. AS: So you were an only child? ES: Only child. AS: Did you have extended family living nearby you? ES: A few. Some cousins and a great-uncle, Uncle Jim ______ (??). AS: Would you visit with them often or were you interactive in one another's lives? 0.04.39.5 ES: Yes. His wife, but Uncle Jim's wife was deceased long before I ever knew him and he'd be my 1 �great-uncle. He was my father's uncle and he came to our house frequently because he had children living in the area too which were the cousins I'm talking about. He'd stay weekends and things with us. We visited back and forth. One of the little stories that I remember about him was my dad had a brother younger than he is that died when he was 16 years old. He was also training him for the same business that he was in. He had the patterns and things there and had him make a little tin dresser with a mirror in it. It was very Victorian, all the ornate stuff on it and drawers that pulled in and out, everything. Of course, I was allowed to play with it when I was real young but I couldn't take it out or do anything with it. My dad valued it highly because he built – he made that dresser just in the spring of the year that he died in. So, it was a keepsake for my father. Anyway, Uncle Jim had spent the night at our house and I was old enough at the time that I liked to trace people's hands and so I have on a piece of paper Uncle Jim's hand. And he wasn't feeling well the next morning when he got up. I put it in a dresser drawer, in that little tin dresser drawer and it always stayed there. He wasn't feeling very well the next morning when he got up and that night he died. And I had that dresser with the print of his hand in it from the night he died. It's kind of a cute little story. AS: That's wonderful. Can you describe your house for us? For instance, was it brick? Did it have a front porch on it? Did you have a garden? ES: It was a frame house. It was on a real deep lot, not real wide, but very deep lot. It did have a partial basement and a crawl space under the back end of it. It did have a front porch. It was built on a hill so, out the back door you walked off onto the ground. On the front, you had to go down steps because of having been built on the hill. It wasn't a large house. We had 3 bedrooms, screened-in back porch, kitchen, dining area, living room and a hallway that went down through the house. AS: Was it one story? ES: One story. It was more like a cottage-type. And we did have a big backyard. My daddy fenced the yard in half. In each half, in the spaces, we had 4 cherry trees. There was a grape arbor that went from the back door from you had to go up the steps when you came out off of our back porch. There was a grape arbor from that back door all the way up to the alleyway and at that particular point in most areas, all the streets were divided with an alleyway in between them. So, it went up to the alleyway where they picked up the trash. No trash was ever set on the front street. Our garage opened off into the alleyway. He took the old shutters off the house, outdoor shutters off the house and built me a playhouse right at the side of our house, next to the bathroom window. And in the summertime, he'd put a hose on the water faucet in the bathtub, bring it out the window so I could have water in my playhouse. (chuckle) AS: Oh, that's wonderful. Did you have a garden? You said you had the grape arbor, did you have a garden that you would tend to or that your mother kept? ES: We had a very small garden that my mother kept. The fence divided the lawn. It was grass up to the fence. Then, on the other side of the fence, there was a small garden on one side and on the other side, my dad had built a little house that looked like a little chicken house because when we visited her parents – They were her foster-parents incidentally. But when we visited them, we'd always come home from the farm with something. And sometimes, it would be a live chicken. So we had – One time we had two chickens out there and I would be delighted to be able to go out and get eggs. I thought that was wonderful. But, yeah, we had kind of a farmy house in town. AS: That's wonderful. What kind of activities did you participate in as a young child in Roanoke? Did you sing in the choir or do any special kind of activities? ES: Just the general. Went to church, Sunday School, played on the streets a lot. I remember that there wasn't much traffic and it was safe. The neighborhoods were clean, safe little neighborhoods. You could go out all night long and you didn't feel anxiety of something happening. They were just nice neighborhoods. I would say that neighborhood was a working-class neighborhood but I think it was somewhere between middle to upper-middle class homes and residences in the area that we lived 2 �in. 0.10.13.1 AS: Did you know your neighbors well? Would you play with their children? Was it a pretty close, tight-knit neighborhood? ES: Mm mm. We knew everybody from one corner to the next on our block and then around the block, we knew people behind us because I was just across the alley and you were in their backyard. So, you talked over the back fence a lot. I could name most of the neighbors in that whole street. And at one time, my cousins lived across the street from me. That was kinda nice too. But we played tag on the streets, rode bikes on the sidewalks, skated and played tag in the street, all those games, everything, because you could run out in the street and you didn't worry about a car. AS: Did you have a car growing up? ES: Yes, we had a car. It was called a Gardener. It was a touring car. You had to put the curtains on it, eisenglass windows. My dad had a couple of trucks that he used in his business. I have a feeling they were Ford trucks but I don't know for sure. AS: Did you ever ride the streetcars? ES: Oh yeah. AS: Did you enjoy that? Was that a special treat or would you do that on a regular basis? ES: We did it on a regular basis because my mother didn't drive and when she'd go to town shopping or go over to Roanoke where the business section is, we took the streetcars. There were no buses when I was real small. We went shopping in Roanoke for clothing and all that and to the movies or whatever entertainment there was. The Roanoke Theater had a lot of stage shows and stuff and we would go down, my dad, mother and I. AS: Do you remember how much it cost to ride the streetcars? If you don't, that's OK. I was just curious. ES: I don't remember exactly with the streetcars but I think it was the same later on. I don't remember real early. But later on, when I was older, bus fare at first was a nickel and then it was seven cents to ride the bus and you could get a transfer and transfer from one bus line to another which you could end up in Roanoke and you could get a transfer and end up in Salem or Vinton and go all for seven cents. (laughing) AS: Wow. Let's switch gears a little bit and let's talk about your education. Where did you go to elementary school, middle school and high school? ES: The first school that I remember is Belmont which was there in Southeast in Roanoke. From there then Jackson Junior High which was out on 9th Street. It was a Junior High actually. Then by that time, my mother was married again, so I was going out on Williamson Road like to William Fleming and out there. And then, I graduated. I went to visit my grandparents and my grandmother had a little niece, I think, Cora Campbell, which was my age. And I went over to stay with her for a while, just playing with her and she started school and I asked if I could go with her and so they let me do it and I transferred down there. Graduated from Stanley High School. AS: And where is Stanley High School? ES: Its down near Lurray, in the Shenandoah Valley. AS: Did you go to college? ES: Just to junior college for a couple of years. I went in training, things happened, financially, the Depression. My father had left me a trust fund. It ran out. My step-father wouldn't finance me so I had to drop out of nurses training. AS: So it was nurses training that you were doing? ES: Mm mm. AS: And where was the junior college that you attended? What was the name of it? ES: I don't remember the name of it. 3 �AS: That's OK if you don't remember. Do you remember where it was? ES: Out like going towards Hollins out that way but it wasn't Hollins College. I didn't know you were going to get so deep into things that I don't remember. AS: That's OK. If you can't remember it, that's fine. We can move on to another question. ES: I have in my records at home. AS: We can look at that and add that to your file. Did anyone in your family, other than you – like did your mother or father or cousins that you were close to, did any of them complete college? 0.14.56.4 ES: I had a couple of cousins that did. That's the only ones I know about. One was Myrtle Gibson – That was her married name. She was Wilson prior to that. I don't know. You know, after my dad died, we began to lose contact with some of these people and especially after she, my mother married my step-father. And I almost said something that I shouldn't put on a tape and I'm glad I thought ahead of time. (chuckling) AS: When you were growing up at your house in the evening, what would you do as activities? Did you listen to the radio or the television? Did you have a telephone? ES: We had a lot of things that a lot of the neighbors didn't have. We had one of the early refrigerators, electrical refrigerators with a big round motor thing up on the top of it. Then we also still kept the ice box and that sat on our screened-in back porch. Yes, we had a telephone. It was on the wall though. And you didn't have to – Down at my grandmother's, you had to turn the crank to call central. On ours, in Roanoke, all you had to do was pick up the receiver and she said, “Number please”. And all of 'em were numbers with a letter on them. Like our telephone number was 2420N. I can even remember that and important things I forget. So anyway AS: Do you remember getting your telephone? Was it a big deal or did you always have one? ES: We must've had it when I was real small because I can't remember them putting that in. I do remember when they bought the refrigerator and brought it in though. AS: Was your mom excited about that? ES: Oh yes, she was real happy to have that because she thought now she won't have things spoiling. We still used the ice box. We bought ice from the ice truck. That was delivered to your house. The first ones I remember were pulled by a horse and they sold ice in 25 pound cuts up to 100 for use in the house. We always bought like 25 or 50. It was one of those. We never bought 100 as I can remember. And the kids would chase the ice truck, run along beside it on the sidewalk as it went down to stops at the houses until the guy would finally get sick of having us there and kidding with us and talking to us, break off a chunk of ice and give it to us and we'd go away real happy sucking on a piece of ice. (chuckling) AS: Did you listen to the radio in the evening as a family or -? ES: Not really. We had a radio quite early and I don't remember a time that – Yeah, I do vaguely remember a time that we didn't have a radio but not too well. No, we didn't make a habit of that. We did sit on the front porch a lot and watch the neighbors go by. Sitting on the porch swing, talk to the neighbors. They'd stop and chat and our porch swing was made from the front seat of an old Model T Ford. It was leather. The seats out of the Ford. And if you'd raise up the cushion, there was still wood under there that held the cushions and the place that you lifted up the lid to fit the battery down in. Oh my. That was the most comfortable swing. Dad had put it in a good frame and had those leather seats. They were black leather seats, tufted back with the buttons in it and chains. I loved that thing. I would much rather have had that than some of the modern swings that some of the other people had. AS: They're not as comfortable now I bet. Did you, a spouse or a sibling or any of your children serve in the military? ES: Just my husband. AS: And what war did he serve in? 4 �ES: World War II. AS: And you said that he was a survivor of D-Day, is that correct? ES: Mm mm. And he was on an LST. He was assigned to an LST, landing barge, landing ship, troops. AS: Did you have to work while he was away at war or were you married at that point? ES: Oh, we got married while he was in the service. We were married in 1943. AS: Did you work while he was away or did you work? 0.19.44.7 ES: I had gone to Norfolk to take a job in a hospital down there because of the training that I had had. That was an easy job for me to get and at better pay than, say, like a nurse's aide or something of that sort. I discovered how much better my salary would be if I worked for the government so I got a job at the Norfolk Naval Air Base. It was there, through mutual friends, that I met John, my husband. It was '43 when we were married. I came back here to Roanoke when he shipped out. That was in the European Theater first. When he shipped out for Europe, I came back to Roanoke and stayed here. And whenever he was free, or come into town, I visited him while he was in New York at Lido Beach. Lets see, was that the only place I went? Yeah. And then after that when he came back here, he had a 30-day survivor leave and we went up to Michigan to visit his mother and his dad's dad had been dead – His dad died when he – of infection – He died I think it was in February, before he was born in August. We came back and visited his mother and his one sister that he was particularly close to and they took us way up north in Michigan, up to the cottages and we were fishing and hunting and doing all that stuff on his 30-day survivor leave. Then when he got his final discharge in 1945, we went back to Michigan to live. AS: Let's come back to Roanoke for a little bit and talk about – Did you have a fond childhood memory that you'd like to share? For instance, a favorite holiday, a favorite vacation or a favorite gift you were given. ES: There were so many things like that. Too many to even talk about. One of the things that I remember and I think it because my mother's pictures having been destroyed when the water leaked on them, I didn't have the pictures they took of it, but it was a – My dad liked parties, doing birthday parties for me and they were always sort-of elaborate and I remember those birthday parties as much as anything. I guess another thing that I enjoyed a lot was going to Lakeside in the summertime. AS: And that was in Salem, correct? ES: Yeah. Lakeside was in Salem but we lived in Roanoke. AS: What kind of activities did you enjoy doing at Lakeside? ES: Oh, they had – it was like carnivals came in there and set up. They had all kinds of rides and I suppose when I was real little, my dad took me on a Ferris wheel so that kind of became a favorite with me because it was one of the first things I rode. They had games and things to play. They had a side show that I wasn't allowed to go into too. They had like carnival booths where they – you could win prizes by throwing a hoop, like a hoop over top of an article, or knocking something down with a ball or shooting something. You could pick a prize for doing that. Things like carnival glass. And, of course, that was my mother's thing. If she won something, she wanted it to be carnival glass. Then, the dolls that they had too – Were they the Cupie Dolls? - like that. They had dolls there that you could win and all kinds of things that you could do that was fun. AS: Would you go there in the summers then? ES: Mm mm. And sometimes with a picnic. When I first went to Lakeside, they didn't have the swimming pool there but before I left Roanoke for good, they had built a nice, big pool and that was there. AS: What kind of businesses would your mom and you and your father – What kind of businesses would you use in Roanoke? Did you go to the city market? 5 �0.24.22.9 ES: We went down to the city market frequently and the thing with my mother is – On the market, they had these open stands where they brought in the fresh fish and laid 'em on ice. I loved fish and we'd smell the fish and I'd go for a whole block pulling on her arm saying, “Buy some fish mommy. Buy some fish.”. The meat market was there. Fresh veggies and all that bit and we went there quite frequently. The clothing stores – There was Heironimous and MacBains, Pughs were some of the better stores. Kress's was there. That's the one my father put all the metal ceilings and sidings in. Oh, other 5 and dime stores like Woolworths. Those were some that we went to. We went to the movies downtown a lot especially the Roanoke Theater. My father liked the stage plays. I don't know, I can't remember. I know anything like appliances and things like that, I know those stores were down there. I remember them but I don't really remember buying something in them. But I know they would've shopped them had they needed them. But, the clothing stores I remember real well. AS: Do you remember some of the community leaders? I know you were really young when you lived here. Were there strong community leaders or people within your neighborhood or community that people looked up to? ES: I can't think of anybody that I was really aware of that was someone that we – I don't know that anywhere around – There was a family across the street from us that had a son that became a doctor and he was quite well thought of, looked up to. I know when I went into – I had to go into the hospital for an appendectomy when I must've been 7 or 8 years old. His name was Bonderat (??) and I wanted him and nobody else to look at me and take care of me and I know that most of the neighbors thought he was a real good doctor. But for somebody other than the ministers and like that, I don't really remember anybody that I thought that to me was outstanding. Now, had I been older, maybe yes, but my dad filled everything for me. I really adored my father. AS: How has Roanoke changed since you've moved away and came back? You said you hardly recognize it. ES: You don't want to know that. Oh man. When I thought about coming back here, I thought, “Well, it'll be sort of like homecoming.”. I'd find familiar places and familiar things. It's really hard to find something that's familiar, that hasn't been moved, changed, torn down. The streets are not the same anymore. New sub-divisions, new development all over. The people have changed. It seems that the culture, it seems that their standards and their values have changed. Even - the people just aren't the same. They're still nice, they're still friendly and a few of them still know what Southern hospitality is but many of them don't. At any rate, it was really a shock. For an example, my cousin once lived on what was Mason Creek Road and later it became Hershberger. And when I went out there to visit her, even later, this was like when my husband and I came home for a visit. It would've been in like in the '70s and '80s. It still dead-ended at Williamson Road. It didn't cross over and come out there where this facility is. There was nothing here. Well, later on there was a big florist. What do you say? He was a florist, he had plants and sold plants and everything. My sister remembers that real well but by the time that got here, I had left Roanoke. So, I don't remember that as well. But its really different. You go through the neighborhoods that were once safe, clean, middle-class/working-class – nice neighborhoods, you wouldn't mind living there. For example, as far as living on Bullit Avenue in Southeast again, it'd be the last place you'd go if you could afford to live anywhere else because its all changed that much. Its almost overwhelming sometimes. And I don't find my way around town yet real well. I mean, new shopping malls, new shopping centers, and where you find something that is familiar, and is old, it sort of looks – Things have been – Its crowded in the midst of all the new things. Bigger, more modern buildings, modern businesses and what not. And they look degraded and they look out of place as if they don't belong in the time and space that they're occupying now. I know on the corner from the house that we lived in in Southeast, down on the corner of 8th Street and Bullit Avenue, there was like a mom and pop grocery. It was a family run thing. McGees and they did 6 �pronounce it “Gee” (hard G), they didn't say “McJee” as some people do. I can remember going down there for ice cream cones and penny candy. And they had a son named James that worked there in the store when he was just a youngster, a young man, but to me he was grown up but I was a little kid. He'd be so patient with us. We'd go in with a nickel or a dime and go there to the candy counter with a roll top, glass top and all this candy that you could buy for a penny. We'd make that dime go. You wouldn't believe the sack of candy we'd come out with for that dime. 'Cause some things were actually 2 for a penny, like they had those – You're not allowed to call them that anymore, they were called just “chocolate babies” I guess. I don't know why black people are offended with the “N” word as they call it because that was lack of education the way they pronounced it. And why would they object to “Negro”. I don't know, but they do. And actually that's the right pronunciation. But anyway, they had those little “chocolate babies” and they were called “Negro Babies” and they were 2 for a penny. So for 2 cents, you'd get 4 of those. (laughing) We'd come out with a great big – They had mint juleps and penny lollipops and chocolate soldiers and, I don't know, I can't remember half of them. But those are some that I do remember. Mint julep, I think I mentioned that one. 0.32.25.3 AS: Would you go to the pharmacies to get soda pops or stuff like that? Do you remember going to any particular pharmacies? ES: The drug store was on the corner of 8th Street, as I just told you, and Bullit Avenue, a couple of blocks down. I believe this was on the corner of Tazwell. It might've been on the corner of Jameson and 8th Street or Tazwell and 8th Street. The drug store with the soda fountain and, honestly, I have never had an ice cream soda that tastes the same as those I had so many years ago. AS: Were they good? ES: In that little drug store. Oh yeah. And that's where we went also to get all our prescriptions filled and everything and it was a neighborhood drug store. Then later, when the chain came in, Jamesons, that was right next door to the drug store down there. So, we'd sometimes go down there instead of going to McGees for groceries but when I was real little, it was always McGees on the corner. A Mr. Merchant lived up on the corner from us on Bullit Avenue. He had a meat/butcher shop down on the market square and operated that all the time. And then he had a little shop on the back of his property and we'd go up there to buy meat real often rather than have to go way downtown, especially if you just wanted, say, a pound of bacon or a little something. We'd go there to get that. AS: Did you always use him as your butcher then? ES: When we went down to the market, we'd usually go there, yeah. These people, these merchants, like McGees, they were part of the neighborhood. I mean, they went to the same church we did. Their kids went to the schools we went to. Finally, they built a nice brick home right behind the store but it didn't look that nice when I went back the second time, believe me. Its changed. The Viscos plant was still up at the end of 9th Street. AS: Did a lot of the members of the community work at Viscos? ES: Yeah. The streetcar ran all the way up there, right to the plant and into the plant and back. Another thing with the streetcars that I used to like to do. You could take the streetcar out to Lakeside and then from Lakeside, you could take – They had the like – What am I trying to say? - The trolley car that went up the mountain – Cable car. 0.35.12.8 AS: Oh, the incline, Mill Mountain incline? ES: Yeah, the cable car and it went up to where the star is only the star wasn't there. What was up there then was just a big look out tower and finally from there they got it to a telescope-type thing you could go. I think eventually they got to the point where you had to put a nickel in the telescope in order to look out over town. I loved going up there. You said incline and that's the first time I thought of that. Yeah, they did call it the incline but it was a cable car, a street car that went up there. 7 �AS: And you could use your transfer for that cable car? ES: Not for the cable car, no. But anywhere else. We could go out to Lakeside. We could go to Salem. We could go to Vinton using that transfer. Go all over. In fact, later on, when I was a little bit older and we were old enough to ride the buses and streetcars alone, 'cause for a while they overlapped. We had the streetcars and bus both. And eventually the streetcar was gone. But anyway, the passes that you could buy for the buses, they cost a dollar a week for a whole week. Our parents and sometimes just the fathers, somebody would have a pass to ride the bus with and they'd let us kids have 'em and they expired on Sunday. They were done on Sunday but they always got the new ones on Saturday. So, they'd give us the old one and we'd take it and ride on the buses on Sunday to the end of the line, turn around, come back, get another bus and go to the end of the line and spend Sunday afternoon riding buses. That was during the Depression days when nobody had a lot of money. AS: So it gave you a way of getting around and getting out of the house? ES: Yeah. AS: We're at pretty much the end of the interview but before we close, is there anything else you'd like to share or a story you'd like to share with us or something that we didn't cover that you'd like to talk about? ES: Not at this time, no, I've talked enough. AS: OK. ES: There are all kinds of things that I remember. My mother sometimes – My mother is deceased now. - but she used to say that, “Well how can you remember that?” but I can remember things that I did as a child better than I can remember something that I did last week. But anyway, there are so many things like that that I can think of. Things that are interesting that people don't know anything about now. So many people don't know anything about what Lakeside might've been or what it was like. And like where the library is built now, that was at first just a private house turned into a library. I had forgotten the name of the people. You might know. AS: The Terry Building. ES: Yeah. And it was her home set up on like a raise in the park and that little hill seems to be gone. I don't know where it went. But the park was pretty. They had the big pond just as you came in on the East side of the park down there. They had swans and ducks in the pond and an old cast iron-type fence that went around it. I remember the park. I also remember when my mother was ill and my dad's cousin was taking care of me while she was in the hospital. She took me to the park one afternoon and she didn't watch me as closely as she should have. She probably didn't realize how nosy I was and how many things I could get into. I was really small then too. I must've been – I might have been only around 5 years old. I don't know if I was in school yet or not but this was summertime anyway. And I was watching the bigger girls on the merry-go-round. The kind that had the chain come down and you'd run around and swung out on it with your feet. They hit me in the head with her feet and knocked me right out cold. When I came to, I was laying with my head on her lap with a wet cold handkerchief on my head. 0.39.47.2 AS: That was in Elmwood Park? ES: Elmwood Park, it sure was. (chuckling) AS: Did you go to library in the Terry Building ever? Do you remember going to the library? ES: I may remember. I don't know what – I can't remember. I imagine you calling it the Terry Building. That must be something that came about after I left here because it was never called that. It was just a house, a dwelling. Yes I did. I read. All my life, I've been a reader and I went down there constantly. I was interested in stamps one time and I went down and asked the librarian to help me with a book to help identify some stamps I had. Well, I'm glad I did because I still have the stamps. They were old. If you were a collector, they were worth something. She said, “Well, what do you want 8 �with that book?”. I promptly told her, “Well, I've got some stamps. I wanna know what they are.”. She gave me something to look at. But then another time I went down – Well, this was after we had moved off of Bullit Avenue now and we were living on Marshall Avenue I told you about, during the Depression days – I didn't have money enough for car fare and I walked down from there to the library on Jefferson Street and got the books that I wanted and came back home with 'em but it was a real hot summer day and I was coming back home right around noontime because they were eating lunch when I got home. So, I got home, washed my hands, wiped my face, sat down to the table and got a horrible nosebleed from the heat. Incidents like that, I remember them and why? They weren't important. Just things you remember about those days. We used to do a lot of things during the Depression like roller skate on the sidewalks. Just a bunch of us would get together. I remember when I was real little trying to do the Charleston, the dance. Things like that. AS: That's wonderful. I want to thank you for participating and we will close the session. ES: Well I think you should be tired of it by now. I have talked too much anyway. AS: No. Your stories are wonderful. ES: I thank you for being interested anyway. 9 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2650/Spoelma_Elizabeth_7_February_2007.JPG 20cedf9abc8b1510f988b7c4bcc24d89 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with E. Elizabeth Spoelma Subject The topic of the resource Southeast Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with E. Elizabeth Spoelma Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 7 February 2007 Location: Friendship Manor Total Duration: 42:19 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7 February 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource E. Elizabeth "Libby" Spoelma; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SpoelmaElizabeth https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2649/CallahanMaryJane_[compressed].mp3 cb9290793127d789d144b8bf8f5ea2d4 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2649/CallahanMaryJane.pdf 042d9ec7df127f1efc919daafaebc88e PDF Text Text Interviewee: Mary Jane Callahan Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: Today is January 10, 2007. I am interviewing Mary Jane Callahan here at the Gainsboro Library. Thank you for participating Mary Jane. We're going to start by asking some background questions about you. Can you tell us when and where you were born? MC: I was born January 21, 1933, in Roanoke at Roanoke Memorial Hospital. AS: We've gone over the streets that you've lived on and just for our tape recording, can you tell us what is the neighborhood that you most closely identify with? MC: I identify mostly with Williamson Road because I have lived there off and on since I was 12 or 13. AS: And your family has ties to the Gainsboro area. Is that correct? MC: That's right. AS: And where did they live in Gainsboro? MC: They lived on Wells Avenue. I don't know whether you'd call it the first street or the last street, opposite the side of Hotel Roanoke. And there were 5 or 6 houses there. Of course, they're all gone now because they tore 'em all down and made that – if you look on the side, you can see where they fixed up a beautiful area. AS: OK. Let's talk a little about your parents and siblings. Tell me about your mom and dad. What did they do and where were they from? MC: OK. My father was originally from Greensboro and I think he was about 4 years old when they moved to Roanoke. He was the youngest of 4 and they moved to Roanoke and lived on Wells Avenue. They just lived there. They didn't live anywhere else let me put it that way. And he worked at Norfolk & Western for 46 ½ years and mostly in the real estate office and the accounting office, offices like that. When it was called the Norfolk & Western, not Norfolk Southern and the buildings were over here where the Tech Center is and the apartments. That's where they were. That's where he worked. My mother was born in Bedford County but I think they moved to Roanoke when she was 2 or 3. She was the youngest of 6. She taught school. Well, she went to Radford College and you could get a teaching certificate after 2 years and she had that for the longest time until they made a change and you had to, by degrees, get your degree you might say and she went to Radford in the summers and took courses in the winter. She taught for 28 years and I don't – maybe it was the 28 that she taught at Oakland School on Williamson Road. She taught there. She taught upper elementary. AS: So she taught all of her 28 years here in Roanoke? MC: Yes, she did. AS: And that was all at Oakland? MC: No. She taught – Let me see – Before she was married, she taught at Crystal Springs School when she was real young, like 21 and 22 'cause she got married when she was 22 and then she got pregnant with me, she was required to stop teaching. AS: I didn't know that. MC: Oh, yes. I'm talking about in the early '30s. And then she went back to teaching and its seems to me like she was at Mount Pleasant School and I don't know whether that's in the city or the county. At the time, it might well have been in the county and it might still be. I'm just not sure. And then she came to Oakland and she taught at Oakland. And I think I'm right when I say she taught 28 years altogether but almost all, all except for a couple were at Oakland School in upper elementary. AS: Did you have other brothers and sisters? 0.04.31.7 MC: I had a brother. A brother who was 2 years younger than me and he died in 1995 when he was 60 1 �years old. And when he was in the 1st grade, still 6 years old, he was diagnosed with diabetes and the fact that he lived at all I guess surprised everybody. While he was growing up and everything, they said that the average life span of a diabetic, a juvenile, I still say juvenile onset until Type I – I can't remember to say that – was about 25 years. And he lived 'til he was 60, more than 53 years with severe diabetes. He even had his feet amputated and all that kind of thing. I think the last 10 years of his life, he was more living than really alive person and he died in 1995. AS: What was his name? MC: His name was Frank Jr. He was living in Oklahoma with his wife and they were both in a nursing home outside of Oklahoma City and I knew I just had to go see him. He had had a colostomy and things were just bad. He wasn't going to make it and I paid the way for a friend to go with me one weekend. We went on a Saturday morning and came back on Sunday evening and he died 10 days later. So, I've always been glad that I did that. Just the one brother. AS: And what were your parents' names? MC: Frank and Lucy. AS: Did you have extended family member living here in Roanoke? MC: Mm mm. Yes. My father's sister lived here until she died in about 1988, something like that and she had 2 sons and one of them still lives here and his children, they don't all live here. He had 4 children and 2 live away and 2 live here. So he's the one that I'm closest to. AS: And what's his name? MC: His name is Frank Murphy. AS: So there's lots of Franks? MC: Yes. In fact, 2 of his grandsons – Its really Francis like St. Francis – have Francis as their middle name. One is Michael Francis. I brought pictures 'cause I just got 'em. (papers shuffling) This is Michael Francis. Isn't that wonderful? AS: Mm mm. MC: And he's in the 4th grade and he won't be 9 until April and when they took the SOLs in the 3rd grade last May, out of a total score of 600, he made 598. AS: Wow. MC: We're like “Aahh”. (laughing) And these are his other grandchildren. AS: Very handsome. MC: Yes. He's in his second year so he's got 2005 there. He graduated from Salem High School and he's at Roanoke College playing basketball 'cause he's 6'6” and this is his brother who will graduate from Salem. AS: So this is the son – These are the children of MC: These are the grandchildren of Frank Murphy. AS: Its Curtis, Mark and MC: Mick or Michael. And this is Mark Francis and this is Michael Francis. His father is John Francis. And Frank's name is Francis John. He was named after my father and my father's brother. AS: Oh, OK. MC: Yes, I like that. But aren't they wonderful? AS: Yes. MC: (Woop) Goodness. (laughing) And those are the newest pictures that I have. AS: You said that you had moved around and you had rental properties. Is there one MC: They rented homes and then they finally bought a home in '61. AS: And the home they bought in '61, where was that? MC: That was on Old Mountain Road. AS: Do you MC: They died in '85 was when they died. 2 �AS: What's the house that you remember the most growing up? MC: It would have to be on Burton Avenue, Williamson Road. That's the one I remember the most because I was 12 or 13 when I moved there. AS: Can you describe the house for me? Was is brick or was it - ? 0.09.58.8 MC: Yes, it was a brick house. AS: One story or two? MC: Two with a basement and an attic. All of that. AS: Did you have a garden? MC: I don't remember that we did. AS: What kind of activities did you participate in growing up? MC: I mostly read. (laughing) I was not a sports person or a cheerleader or anything else. I was pretty shy and pretty small and everything else and so I didn't do anything like that really. AS: So you read a lot. Did you go to a particular library when you went when you were growing up? MC: Let me tell you what I did to show you how different things are. On Friday night, I would walk 2 blocks and get on the bus, go downtown. Get on the Williamson Road bus, go downtown to Campbell and Jefferson. Walk to where the library was up on the hill in a house. AS: _________ (both talking simultaneously) MC: No, no. AS: The one that – where the now the main library sits. MC: Yes, but it wasn't sitting right there. It was up on a hill in Elmwood Park. Is that what the name of it was? AS: Yes, it was originally the Terry House. MC: I couldn't remember that. I would go there, get books and then it would be dark. I would walk from that building back down to Campbell and Jefferson and get on the bus and walk back 2 blocks to my house and nobody thought anything about it. My family – you know, my mother and father, so what. AS: So you did that every Friday? MC: Just about. AS: Wonderful. MC: I'm talking about in the dark on Friday night. AS: Do you remember who the librarian was? MC: No. I cannot. In fact, I may not have known 'cause I was about 17 maybe 18, something like that. I can remember too that I had saddle oxfords and we wore our jeans turned up like this. (laughing) AS: And we talked about what your mother and father did so let's talk about your education now. Where did you attend school growing up? MC: I attended old Our Lady of Nazareth School from grades 1 through 12 and that's over over on the corner – was over on the corner of 8th and Campbell. Its now the Ram House. Its been the Ram House for at least, what, 30 years, 20 years, something like that. But it was a church and the school was up over the church. And that's where I went to school. And then, when I graduated from high school at 16, I went to St. Andrews at a post-graduate commercial school, typing shorthand, bookkeeping and I got a degree from that and then I worked at First National Exchange Bank when it was downtown at the corner of Campbell and Jefferson and then I worked and I can't remember the name because I saw silk mill in here somewhere and I can't remember the name. AS: The Viscose plant. MC: Yes. Viscose. That's the trouble with turning 74. I worked there for about a year and half. Wait a minute – That was the 3rd place I worked. The second place I worked was the Department of State in 3 �Washington, D.C. And I came back and worked for Viscose and then I went to college in Indiana for 2 years. AS: And what – say the name of the college again. MC: St. Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. It was formed in the 1940s. AS: And that was the female version of Notre Dame. MC: Version of Notre Dame (speaking simultaneously) which was right across the highway outside of Southbend and then I came here and I taught school and went to Radford in the summer and took UVA extension courses at night. AS: Wow. MC: Then graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Education. I think the only Education degrees now are Bachelor's of Science but I got a – 'cause I majored in French and then had minors in Latin and History. Then, the first place I went to teach with a degree was Martinsville and I went there 4 years and taught in a high school there. And then I went to Norfolk and taught at Maury High School which I think has been there since 1910. It was “the” high school and the oldest by far and I taught there 13 years. And then I came back to Roanoke and then I taught at Roanoke Catholic for 18 years. 0.15.23.6 AS: And you said you got your Master's degree as well? MC: Yes. I'm skipping the most important thing which I got my Master's at Old Dominion University in History, in Medieval History. AS: Wonderful. So you completed up to your Master's degree and you said your mother also completed her MC: Not Master's, Bachelor's. She had a double major in English and Elementary Education. I don't know if you can even do that now or not. AS: Did your father have a college degree. MC: He did not. AS: Did your brother go to school. MC: No. Well, he went to Tech for a year and then he just did other things. He moved around a lot. AS: OK. Now, we're just going to talk about growing up with your family. If you could just describe a little bit of your home life for us. For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening? Do you remember when you got your first MC: Oh, yes we did. I cannot remember. I can remember the first phone number we had but I don't know where I was living. It was just 9744. That was all it was. If you wanted to call somebody long distance, you dialed the operator, you know, way back then. (laughing) I don't remember whether I was living on Burton Avenue and Williamson Road or I was living – I'm sure we had a telephone when I was living on Day Avenue, AS: Did you listen to the radio? MC: Oh yes. AS: Was there a favorite show? MC: No, not really but we would listen to certain things. AS: Did you sit on the porch in the evenings and interact with your neighbors at all? MC: Yes, we did because no house was air conditioned. I mean, not one while I was growing up. Yes, we did a lot of that. But it wasn't in Gainsboro. That's what my problem with doing all of this is. AS: Its good to know about all neighborhoods in the city. The neighborhood sitting on the porch and interacting with your neighbors seemed to be a major community event here in Gainsboro. MC: It was. AS: Was it like that also where you were growing up. MC: Yes, it was. Had friends on the block so to speak. AS: What chores did you have to do around your house or in your neighborhood. 4 �MC: I had to do a lot of chores and I had to do 'em on Saturday because the week was school and homework and I can remember how I hated running and playing. I would fuss. I would say, “I wish I could go to school on Saturday.”. (laughing) And then when I got to my mother's room, I would shut the door, the cleaner was running, I would shut the door and I would sit down at her boudoir and try on her rings. (laughing) Things like that. I can remember that. Its funny how you can remember certain things and other things you can't even remember like Viscose. AS: Were there stories that your family passed down from generation to generation about either your family's history or about MC: Yes. Now more of my family's history I got from – let me see – I guess he would be a cousin of my father and my aunt in Tennessee and he started this genealogy business down there and I had stacks of materials but I gave 'em all to my cousin who lives in Wilmington, Delaware, the summer before last because he was way into it and even going to places in Pennsylvania and Maryland trying to find birth records and things like that. And I thought, I have no one to give this to, no one and I gave it all to him. And I did and he was very excited although he's about 80 - 79 or 80 years old. He was just so very interested in that. 0.19.57.2 AS: Did you have any family recipes that were passed down through your family? You don't remember that? MC: No. I don't like to cook. I just cook vegetables and chicken and fish and that's about it. I am not a cook. I don't want to be a cook ever. (laughing) AS: Did you or anyone in your family ever serve in any of the wars? MC: No. My brother, of course, was disabled, severely disabled and then my father, when World War II came, he was about 35 years old which was the high end. He wanted to serve so bad. He was a small man but he wanted to serve so bad but they declared him, for reasons I'm not sure of, 4F which means “No way”. He still worked, even during the depression, he was lucky he kept a job. Engineers were cut off and everything. People had degrees from Tech and all of that and he never was. He managed to maintain his job at the Norfolk & Western but he kept up with everything. He knew more about what went on in World War II than anybody I ever knew and because I taught World History, I maintained a lot of information from that and used it. AS: Wonderful. What kind of businesses and shops here in Roanoke do you remember shopping at? MC: All the shopping was downtown. Every single bit of it. There was not such thing as a shopping center. There might've been a couple of little stores over on Grandin Road, things like that and theaters. There was the – The Grandin is still there but it closed a couple of times. And the Lee Theater on Williamson Road and they did kids stuff and regular movies. I remember going to see “The King and I” there and then it became – what do you call it? - R&X rated movies. Oh, it did. And then it just closed completely and became. I don't know what was there. There was nowhere to shop. You got on the bus and went downtown. AS: Did your family have a car? MC: Not until the first year after World War II. Daddy bought a second-hand car and it was a 1946. In those days, you put your name on a list and it took 2 years to get a car because all of the car makers were making tanks and airplanes and this and than and the other. And there was no such thing as a car from 1942 to 1946. AS: Were you excited when you got your first car? MC: Mm mm. AS: Did you learn how to drive? MC: It was later that I learned how to drive. AS: Would you shop downtown on the city market for groceries or was there a grocery store that you would go to? 5 �MC: One of the most interesting things down there. You know where the city market building is was a meat market. That's all it was. Mother would call. There must've been 8 or 10 meat markets on each side and she dealt with one and she would call and say what she wanted and I would leave when I left school over to Old Nazareth. I would either walk or ride the bus downtown, pick up the meat that he already had ready and get on the bus and come back over to Williamson Road. AS: How often would you do that? MC: At least once or twice a week. Because refrigerators had these little freezers that were about this size. Like that. That was it. AS: And you talk a lot about riding the bus. Did you ever ride the railway, streetcars? 0.24.36.2 MC: I sure did. When I went from – When I lived over on Day Avenue and when I lived on Williamson Road, my aunt lived in South Roanoke, daddy's sister. All that time and I would ride the streetcar over there. And when I would do that, now this was just me, you would get on the streetcar and I always sat on the left-hand side. And the reason I did was when the streetcar went behind – not behind but before it got to where Roanoke Memorial Hospital was, it went down Hamilton Terrace and here was the river over here. Here was Hamilton Terrace. And I knew the guy wasn't going any faster than he was supposed to but it felt like 100 miles an hour down that hill. And I held on because I was so afraid it would toss us into the river. (laughing) I can remember that so easily. Isn't that funny. Then get off and walk just a block 'cause that was definitely a streetcar. It went from Patterson Avenue. I even did that I think. AS: Was it less expensive to ride the streetcar or the bus? MC: I don't think so. I think it was the same. You could get a transfer. And I always kept the transfers in case - I met a friend at the corner of Campbell and Jefferson. She lived in Philamont (??). If it was raining, we would ride the streetcar up to school. If it wasn't raining, we walked. (laughing) AS: Well, that's smart. MC: But I mean I always had an extra transfer. (laughing) AS: What is your fondest childhood memory? For instance, do you have a favorite holiday event? A favorite vacation you would go to? A favorite gift you ever received? MC: I can't remember that. I would have to think about it and all of a sudden, something would come back to my mind. I can't think along those lines right now. Just don't remember. AS: Are there big events that you remember happening in the city that you remember attending like the fairs, the Roanoke Fair, that they had. MC: I know I did a couple of times. The Victory Stadium Fourth of July. I think we went to that 2 or 3 times. AS: What would they do for the Fourth of July at Victory Stadium? MC: There was some kind of band or orchestra before the fireworks. And I always hated listening to the music from West Side Story. I was driving over here and they said something about the music from West Side Story and I thought, “No, thank you.”. I just got so tired. You know they played bouncy music and wonderful music and all of a sudden it was West Side Story music and I know why. Because Leonard Bernstein and the gangs of New York but I just hated that music. And then they would play stuff and the fireworks were wonderful. Just wonderful. AS: So that was a big event to go to. MC: That was a big event for anybody to go to. AS: Was it free to go to that? MC: Yes. AS: Would your whole family go? MC: I mostly went with my cousins over in South Roanoke, went over there and then there was no problem with parking or anything like that. And one other thing that I loved to do when I was in my 6 �teens and later teens. My daddy and I loved to go to Mar Field which was down the road. Here's Victory Stadium and then down the road, towards Franklin Road was a baseball field and we liked to go watch the Roanoke Red Sox. And we'd get on the bus, go downtown and transfer, ride up there and then have to do the reverse and we just loved doing that. AS: So you liked going to the baseball fields? MC: I did then. Now I wouldn't care if I ever saw one again. (laughing) AS: And they were called the Roanoke Red Sox? MC: Yes. They were a farm team of the Boston Sox and they were like not 1st, not 2nd, I think they were – I can't remember the word. 'Cause they all had farm teams even now. But we loved to do that, my dad and I. So we would eat supper and get on the bus by 6:00 and go over and watch that. We loved to do that. 0.30.03.0 AS: Wonderful. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you'd like to share with us? MC: I don't know. One of my memories of Gainsboro Library – I said I taught up there on the hill and that's what we called it, on the hill for 18 years. For about 2 or 3 years, I had an Advanced Placement American History class that I taught and when we got to the research paper. And, of course, research was a lot harder back in the '80s than it would be now. We would come down to this library and whatever the subject was – I had about 7 or 8 students in that class. AS: Who was the librarian then? Was it Miss Virginia Y. Lee or was it Carla? MC: I don't know if it was Carla or not 'cause I don't know when she started here. AS: She's been here for 35 years. MC: Well then it was Carla. At that time, I did not know her or remember and we would come down here 1 or 2 days, just during the class period and if you know how you have to sign your life away to get on a bus or do anything at a school anymore, we just said, “We're going over to the Gainsboro Library” and back up the hill we went, down and back up. That was it. Like I said, there were only 7 or 8 of us. AS: What church do you attend? MC: Now? AS: Mm mm. MC: I go to St. Elias over on Cove Road. Its a Maranite Catholic Church which is Lebanese and they have had for about 7 years now a Lebanese Festival in June. You ought to go to it. Its the most wonderful food you've ever eaten. Remember the Greek Church did it for the first time, just this past, what, October or November. Same type of thing. I just love that church. Its more - I don't know – I'm not a conservative, I'm a liberal. But its a conservative church and I love the liturgy and I just love it. I've been going about 6 or 7 years there. AS: Did you attend church anywhere else? MC: St. Andrews. For probably 20 years or something like that. AS: Were you a member of any organizations here in the city? MC: I don't remember. I just can't. Doesn't come to me. AS: I think we're at the end of our interview and I just wanted to tell you thank you for participating. MC: Oh, I'm so glad. And if we had those pictures, I could tell you more about AS: We can definitely follow up. MC: 'Cause I've got a picture of the house and I've got a picture of my dad standing, he's facing the house but behind him is old Hotel Roanoke when he was about 20, 18 or 20. And behind him was the old Hotel Roanoke with awnings because it was the old one before there was any such thing as air conditioning and stuff like that. And my cousin, Frank, out in South Roanoke, was born on the 2nd floor of 50 Gilmer Avenue which is right behind where Evelyn Bethyl (??) lives. She lives at 35 Patton. I've got a picture of my grandmother and grandfather and my father and he looks like he was about 5 or 6 7 �years old in the picture. But the house where he was born, I think its still there. Although the ones on Wells have long since been torn down. AS: We will take a look at those pictures then and have you talk about those. MC: There was at least one if not two Greek families that lived – There were, like I said, only about 5 or 6 houses on there and they lived on that street too and I don't know who they were or anything. And they might all be gone for all I know. I'm taking up your time now. AS: You're fine. MC: I'll give this back to you. AS: OK. Thank you. 8 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2649/Callahan_Mary_Jane._10_January_2007.JPG 4fa89162d5ef5be6994212add49ced40 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mary Jane Callahan Subject The topic of the resource Williamson Road Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Mary Jane Callahan Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 10 January 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 35:08 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10 January 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mary Jane Callahan; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CallahanMaryJane https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2648/Chubb-Hale_Mignon_11_January_2007.1.mp3 9d2ace9ea5e39c50f9c8dce010ce0004 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2648/Chubb-HaleVirginia.pdf ca5562ee534a3cf1d189cd8b002413ee PDF Text Text Interview with Virginia Chubb-Hale – at Gainsboro Branch Library Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 11 January 2007 Counter: O CL: My name is Carla Lewis and I’m the Gainsboro Branch Manager, and we are going to interview today Mignon Chubb, Ms. Virginia Mignon Chubb. And we are doing the interview at the Gainsboro branch of the Roanoke City public library system. Here at the Gainsboro library in Roanoke, Virginia. Mignon, when and where were you born? MC: In Roanoke, Virginia, November 3rd 1942. CL: Okay. Tell me about your parents, your brothers, sisters, and extended family. MC: My father’s name was Leon Chubb. My mother’s name was Pranella Lorraine Delaney Chubb. I have one brother, Richard Lee Chubb, and one sister, Pranella ChubbWilson. Counter: 1:04.39 CL: Okay. Can you describe your home life for us? MC: I had a very, just wonderful parents. They always gave us encouragement, you can accomplish whatever you put your mind too, and they had a strong desire for our lives to be better than their’s. They always promoted education and teaching respect, responsibility, and caring about yourself and your community. My daddy, I have to admire him and my mother. My daddy worked four jobs and never made 10,000 dollars, and my mother took in ironing, and she stayed at home until I was in about the eighth grade and then she started doing domestic work but she always had time to help you with homework and she did the discipline because my daddy had so many jobs. And my daddy his parents really punished him severely so my mother was left up to do all the discipline. Often you hear people say: “I’m gonna wait for your daddy to come home,” but that wasn’t true, at least not true of any woman in my family –nieces or anything, we were just strong woman and a lot of them have had to raise boys, three or four children on their own. So, I guess that comes from our mom (laughs). And like I said, just about all the women in our family are like that. Counter: 2.42.1 (In this section: MC talks about telephone, radio, television – but doesn’t go into specifics) Counter: 4.25.8 MC: And one thing I want to say about my neighborhood I don’t think any of the parents had finished high school or college but they had this will for their young people to do better. Most of them had to drop out because of the depression, like my parents they both were in high school but because of the depression they had to drop out. They would try to go to night school but it was just too difficult. And practically everybody in my �neighborhood, except for one person, finished high school, and then I found out later that he finished in the military. And I’d say a good 70% of the people in my neighborhood – I might be off a little bit – finished college. Counter: 5.16.1 (In this section MC talks about her activities: Sunday school, Girl Scouts – but doesn’t elaborate) Counter: 5.37.2 CL: Did you or your family sit on the front porch on the afternoons or after dinner to discuss daily activities, or something that happened in the community, or just sit out and say “hi” to the neighbors who passed by? MC: Well, you would sit out just to enjoy the air 'cause we didn’t have air conditioning or anything in the summertime. A lot of times you would sit out on the porch until late in the evening to get some cool air. And you would speak to your neighbors sometime and another neighbor would be on the porch and you would chat with them and all. And everybody in your neighborhood could correct you in your community not just in your neighborhood. They saw you doing something wrong: “I’m gonna tell your mommy on you, or your daddy,” (laughs), and you know it is just so different today. You can barely speak to young people. Counter: 6.37.1 CL: What family stories were passed down from one generation to another? Or Recipes, or jokes, or . . . MC: Well, my mother’s lemon pie, which I’m not a really good cook so I didn’t take that, and her meatloaf. My daddy loved to tell stories about Santa Claus. He would sorta exaggerate, he was a great storyteller, I’m sure if he was living today he would be a professional storyteller. Counter: 7.20.2 CL: What are your fondest memories of your childhood, or growing up in the Gainsboro area? MC: Just, how people treated each other – you were like family. If they saw you getting in trouble, they would correct you or tell your parents, they weren’t afraid to call. Or really, if you and another friend were in trouble they would also, if they needed to, spank both of you. That wasn’t a problem either because when you went home you’d get another one. Counter: 8.01.1 (MC talks about chores, the house she lived in, and her garden) �Counter: 9.23.1 CL: And how long did you live in the Gainsboro area? MC: I’d say until I was about 30 years old, maybe a little, I’d say close to about 30 because I had finished college and started working on my master’s degree. Counter: 9.46.2 CL: And how has the Gainsboro area changed today? MC: All the redevelopment, a lot of the people who lived in lower Gainsboro their houses were taken for redevelopment and they moved up in Northwest where I live now. They just took so much from that area and often the people really didn’t get enough to go and buy another house so that’s the change. To me they just took so much away from African-Americans. Counter: 10.59.2 CL: Did the people in the Gainsboro community own their own businesses? MC: Yes, 'cause Henry Street was, I just call it like a real holy city (??). ‘Cause everything was there, you had doctors, you had lawyers, you had the Dumas, the only hotel where African-Americans could stay, you had the Virginia theater, that was the movie you would go to and my cousin who was in the medical field at the time, she was 15 years old but she would always come and that was such a treat. She was so elegant and professional and we would walk across Henry Street and we would go to the movie and after the movie we would stop at Jack & Jill’s to get a hotdog and some ice-cream and that was just a wonderful time. She just had everything, everything that you would want. The shoe shop, the record shop, and my cousin, my uncle rather, he had an insurance company, I can not think of it, but it was right near where Dr. Pin’s (??) office was and the Virginia theater. It was right on the diagonal from the Dunes (??), not really across, I guess in a way it was sorta. But my uncle my marriage, he was President of that insurance company. CL: Do you know the name of that uncle per chance? MC: Amber Bishop, he died many years ago. And right where they, and then Doctor Downin’s (??) office was right across from the Virginia Theater. That was my family doctor, doctor L.C. Downin(??) at the time. Counter: 12.48.1 CL: Okay, let’s talk a little bit about your education. Where did you go to Elementary School? MC: Harrison Elementary School, and I could walk across all those hills and I could come home for lunch, and if I didn’t come home for lunch I would have a bag lunch (laughs). Counter: 13.33.1 �CL: Did you or any member of your family attend college? MC: Yes. My brother, who’s two years older than me, he finished in my family first. CL: Can you give us his name? MC: Richard Lee Chubb. And then my sister went to nursing school but she dropped-out because she started her family. And then I, am the youngest, and I finished college. CL: Which college did you finish at? MC: I did my undergraduate work at Bluefield State College in Bluefield, West Virginia, and my master’s in education at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, Virginia. Counter: 14.25.1 (MC talks briefly about jobs available to African-Americans – mainly working the railroad, teaching and nursing) Counter: 15.43.1 (MC talks a bit about the Gainsboro library and Ms. Virginia) Counter: 16.22.1 CL: What were, who were some of the strong community leaders that you remember from the Gainsboro area? MC: I’m sure there were others but the one that stands out in my mind is Dr. Harold T. Pen (??). He was my dentist but he just cared about people in the community. He lost a lot of money. He tried to open up a dress factory I believe, and that did not materialize because other-so-called black leaders did not pitch-in to help. So, I would have to say Dr. Harold T. Pen (??). CL: Was he also your role model, or did you have another one? MC: My parents were my role models, and my aunts and uncles. But my mother and daddy, they were my role models. Counter: 17.25.0 CL: How was life affected by Segregation and the Civil Rights Movement? MC: Well, I think anytime people are treated like second-class citizens, that’s not good, 'cause I finished Addison High School in 1961 and a lot of, we had hand-me-down material, we didn’t have things like the other schools. But one thing I must say, all of our teachers looked professional and you were taught values. You were taught that at home, but when you arrived at school you were also taught that. And, they were outstanding. 'cause you see some teachers today, and I’m not putting anyone down, to me they are not a good example. Some of them – they already young, but they look like the students. But all of our teachers, men and women, they were just classy. I don’t know if she’s met Mister Harlem . . . CL: Didn’t ask. MC: They would be dressed. And He was one of the volunteers for a mentor program I had started at one of the schools, but just so professional. And I think that has damaged �young people today too, because not looking the part – and you’re supposed to be a professional. Counter: 19.12.1 (MC lists the family members serving in the military – one cousin in Vietnam, one in Iraq: Desert Storm, and one in Korea War) Counter: 20.19.1 CL: Talk about your memories of Urban Renewal. What effect did it have on your life, or the lives of your family members? MC: Well, it just changed things. When you have that a lot of black businesses went, they weren’t anymore because they couldn’t keep up or compete, and when you have changes someone has to lose. We lost our hospital eventually, and I think the de-segregation, or integration was good in a lot of ways, but in some ways it killed the black entrepreneur because they couldn’t survive. Counter: 21.19.06 CL: Tell us about a memory you had and you have and still have that you feel good about in the Gainsboro area, you’ve told us some of the memories sitting on the front porch and everything, do you have one major one that just sticks in your mind that you can tell us about, that you tell others when you meet? . . . Something that happened? MC: I can’t think of anything. The only thing that keeps coming back to me is just the unity we had, that people could just, if they saw you doing something wrong they could correct you and you would know just about everywhere you’d go you’d see people out on the porch . . . you know you just knew, it just felt like family, and you felt protected. Now where I live I rarely know my neighbors (laughs), I mean you just don’t feel, you don’t have that comfort-feeling, I guess that would be the positive thing – just knowing people and feeling comfortable to walk in the area and every—and the area as a whole, you know? CL: Okay. Counter: 22.00.0 CL: Now, we have covered a lot of questions. Is there anything we didn’t cover that you would like to tell us about? I know you said you were teacher of the year when you were at Addison Aerospace School, can you tell us a little bit about your teaching experience and the gratification? MC: Well, I had a lot of wonderful students and parents to work with. And I always tried to encourage students to have self-discipline. If I discipline you it’s because I care about you. If people let you do whatever you want then they really don’t care about you. Discipline is showing people that you love them and when I went to Wascena (??) Elementary School which is in Southwest Roanoke, a couple other teachers and I when they desegregated all the schools in Roanoke Valley, I was one of the first teachers to go �there and I was there for about thirteen years and some of my parents at the time, they really weren’t used to having an African-American teachin’ they had had a lot of AfricanAmerican working in their homes. But as time went on at Wascena (??) in 1980 or ’81 I took a group of my sixth graders to Paris, France and Italy for ten days and we had a wonderful time and everyone in the group just couldn’t believe it. The children’s asked questions they did everything it was just a wonderful, unique experience. At Wascena (??) Elementary school I won also the “Social Studies Teacher of the Year” award and I just got a lot of recognition for that and because of my parents and students – it wasn’t me alone I had such wonderful parents who really encouraged and worked with you. The projects that we would do – is it the Roanoke times? – I know for several years they would have somethin’ about African-American history projects that I would do or the World’s Fair. Or that was all because I had such wonderful parents. They were workin’ harder than the students to make the programs turn out well because you would have people from the community, we would get acknowledgements from the Governor, and we would have Senators and different people to come to our activities and everything. Counter: 25.12.1 CL: Thank-you. Thank-you Mignon for participating in the Gainsboro History Project. Now is there anything before we close, anything else you would like to tell us? MC: I would like to say I thoroughly enjoyed working at the General Assembly while Doug Wilder was our Lieutenant Governor at the time, and that was really a unique experience meeting and talking and seeing the operation of the General Assembly and the bills and everything . . . I just, I’ve had a lot of wonderful experiences but that was . . . but recently one of the most exciting things that I’ve done in 2006 I went through the Roanoke Citizens Police Academy, and that was just exciting. And now another retired teacher and I, we are getting ready to join the Alumnae and we are going to help with the Senior Citizens Academy. And that was just . . . Someone in the background: What are those, can you just describe it a little bit? You said, the, what is the Police Academy that you completed? MC: They teach you the operation of the Police Department, they show you about the tactical team, how the dogs are used, the horses, I went target practicing, I rode in a high speed chase, I did the ride along where I had on a bullet-proof vest. I had a radio and my officers said: “Misses Hill, if I get hurt you have to know how to call on the radio,” and then they told us about that drug enforcement team, homeland security and all, and it was just marvelous I would recommend that to any citizen to participate in. If they don’t want to do the regular one like we did they can the Senior Citizens one. Somebody even asked, “are you interested in being on the police force?” I said, “no I’m too old.” But that was just exciting (laughs), I thoroughly enjoyed that and I’ve encouraged some of my other friends in other cities if they like excitement they may want to try doing that but it was just wonderful. CL: Great. Well, wonderful. Well, thank-you Mignon. I really appreciate your participation and we will close-out now and I want to say thank-you one more time. MC: And thank-you. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2648/MCH_18.0_PHOTO_MIGNON_CHUBB.JPG 59f117950873a67d778c2218e0c3e705 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia M. Chubb-Hale Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Virginia M. Chubb-Hale Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 11 January 2007 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 28:20 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11 January 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Virginia M. Chubb-Hale; Carla Lewis Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Chubb-HaleVirginia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2647/HaleBob_[compressed].mp3 383e13340367d0fb385cbc19386576ca https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2647/HaleRobert.pdf df62ddf459d68c0f17c7ef10224d00fc PDF Text Text Interviewee: Robert Hale Interviewer: Mary Bishop Transcriber: Andrew Sterling This is December 16, 2006. MB: Mr. Hale if you would state for the recording your name and RH: Robert Monroe Hale. MB: He's being interviewed at the Harrison Museum. When and where were you born? RH: I was born here in Roanoke, October 8, 1924, at 612 Harrison Avenue. MB: How long have you lived in Gainsboro? RH: Well, I lived here until I went into the service and then came back here and then went to Boston in 1960. MB: And how long did you stay there? RH: 27 years. MB: So you've been back RH: About, almost 20 years. MB: '87 or so. RH: Yeah. MB: Repeat again the streets you've lived on here in Roanoke. RH: This is Harrison Avenue, 6th Avenue and Patton Avenue which is 5th Avenue and when I say Roer Avenue Southwest and Lincoln Terrace. That's all I can think of now. MB: Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. RH: My parents – My mother was a school teacher for several years at this school here. MB: Her name? RH: Esther Tallihale (??) and my father, he worked at the freight station for years but he became crippled so he was invalid for a long time. I think he died in '36. MB: His name was? RH: James Henry Hale. I have a brother who is James Henry Hale, Jr. He's in Hampton. He's a retired teacher. And there is the next brother, Nathaniel Hale. He's deceased since '01 I think it was. There's a sister, Esther Antonette Hale. She was named after my mother. Who else? That's it as far as the immediate family. MB: Did you have extended family members living nearby? RH: You mean cousins? MB: When you were growing up? RH: Cousins and such, oh yeah. MB: Aunts and uncles. RH: Oh yeah, a bunch of them. Uncle Bob and Uncle Harrison and its just a bunch of 'em. I think granddaddy had about 10 children. I think 5 girls and 5 boys so lots of aunts and uncles and cousins. The Hales just took over Roanoke. MB: How about your mother's side? Were her people here too? RH: They were from Richmond and my grandmother lived in Richmond. She was – she lived to 100, almost 101. Mother lived to 94. Her people, well, they were scattered about, New Jersey and in the country, down in the country somewhere outside of Richmond. They just all scattered about. Its hard to keep up with. Most of were in Virginia and so MB: Describe the house at 612 Harrison Avenue, what it looked like and - ? 0.04.09.6 RH: Well, its still there now. It was double – In fact, I think my – We lived upstairs. I think my aunt 1 �and granddaddy lived downstairs so it was pretty crowded up there at times. 'Cause you know with 4 people with almost 6 people so to speak 'til daddy died. We had the upstairs. And during those days, it was – you had rooms heated individually 'cause we had to heat water to take your bath and stuff like that. Everybody went to school didn't have far to go to school. We just walked down the street. We never really thought about being poor but we were poor. My mother worked in Bridgeport, Connecticut during the summer when school was out. She worked for some people up in Bridgeport and leave us here with the aunts and uncles 'cause daddy wasn't able to work. That's a long time ago – that you thought about these things. I had a paper route over on 7th and I think my brother had one too and we basically just – 'Cause all the relatives, the Scotts and all the people lived on the street and in the neighborhood. Everybody was family because everybody knew each other. The school teachers knew you and they were part of the church you went to. It was more of a community. The boys went to Hampton and the sister went to Virginia State, I think. Is it a university now? Yeah. All of 'em are. I think I had some cousins that went to Bluefield State. And that was always the exciting thing coming home for Christmas. And what were they, 20 years old or something like that, but you would look forward to them coming home for Christmas. And sending packages, you know, food packages and stuff like that. Then the draft – the Army came and World War II. A lot of people got scattered during that time. So they regrouped a little bit when they came home in '46. So much going on. (chuckling) MB: Any other activities that you all participated in, church or clubs or anything that you all did. RH: You went to church. Everybody went to church. MB: Where did you go? RH: We went to Mount Zion AME which is now on Melrose. You just had to make your own fun. There were no computers or cell phones and TV and stuff like that so you were just a little more creative I believe. Flying kites, shooting marbles. We were quite musical too because mama had this old upright piano so we all learned to play just by ear. I think she played too 'cause she worked at the Y for a long time with kids. It was mostly musical, guitar, ukeleles then and guitars. I think somebody had a violin but we didn't go for that. Mostly I just learned the piano at home. My brother played trumpet I think. My sister took music lessons. So basically, if you think about it, the whole family was musical. Then we got into photography, taking pictures with your little Brownie cameras. It was a time of you just had to do your thing. You didn't have – We got little erector sets and chemical sets for Christmas and wagons and stuff like that. No Nintendos. (chuckling) It didn't cost that much either. Its a long time ago. We used to get Christmas trees. A man used to sell Christmas trees on the corner. They were about 35 cents or 50 cents and then we'd wait until he sold all he was going to sell and go home and we go down and pick up the ones that was left which was pretty scrawny. You fixed the tree up. Momma provided for us. She took care of the family and she worked and provided for us. So it was basically a single parent at that time when daddy was in the wheelchair. He couldn't get around so she took care of everybody. And we had family too. The aunts was downstairs. The aunts were up the street. The uncles – Uncle Bob had the Dreamland and he had a grocery store and he has Pine Oaks now. There's a street named after Hale up there. I don't know but it must still be there. It might seem like a dull life to some kids nowadays but nobody had a car. You walked everywhere you went and so you really just was living in an era that wasn't quite as advanced as it is now. 0.10.23.4 MB: What kind of work did your mother do? RH: She was a school teacher. She taught here, I think 1st or 2nd grade and then substituted once for 4th grade or something. MB: Here at Harrison? RH: Yeah, here at Harrison. MB: And she also taught at the Y? RH: Yeah. And in the summer, she taught at the playground. They used to have a lot of activities at 2 �the playground. All the swings and they had pet shows and there was just a lot of activities. People were just out then. You were outside then. Everything went on outside. Even with the radio, there was one station. So everything really happened on the outside. A lot of activities were outside playing ballgames and stuff like that. But she taught for a long time over at the playground. And then she taught at the Y. MB: What type of work have you done throughout your life? RH: Not much. (laughing) When I came back from the Army, I worked at the City School Board for a little while and then, that's when I went to Boston in '51 to study Music for a couple of years and came back. Basically, what did happen? Where was I working? I was working somewhere. Maybe I was working for the School Board then too. But I had a couple – We were playing music. MB: Where did you study Music in Boston? RH: First there was a little school called Phil Saltman's School of Music. MB: What is it? RH: Phil Saltman. It was a school of music. Then there was another one I went to that's called Berklee House. It was called Schillinger House but the man who was the owner or teacher, his name was Berk and his son's name was Lee. His name was Lawrence Berk. That's how the Berklee School of Music came to be. There were about 50 students there and there's about 5,000 there now at least. Its a college now. So then I came home and started a family. And went back to school. I went back to Boston in '60. MB: What did you do then? RH: Then I did some more studying and I went into photography when I was there and worked with the Boston Redevelopment. I did a lot of work with them. MB: Photography? RH: Yeah, yeah, doing their photography work and worked for a small black newspaper something like the Tribune but it was called Bay State Banner and I worked for them about 10 years or so. Then I worked for Oxfam America. Its a relief program. I worked for them about 4 or 5 years. Mother left me a home and it was falling to pieces so it was just time to get back, reconstruct. MB: The Harrison Avenue house? RH: No, its the one on Patton Avenue. That's where I am now. I've been there about 20 years. MB: And that's the one she left you? RH: Yes. She had 4 houses. She left everybody a house. MB: That's great. RH: Yeah. MB: Tell us about the schools that you attended here in Roanoke. 0.14.26.1 RH: Here, at Harrison and then Addison. They were the only 2 to attend I guess. I finished after I came back from the service. It was in the summer I think. You had so many units you had to make up. Each subject was a half a unit so I think you had to have 2 units each semester. That means you had to take 4 subjects. And I think when I left I just had only a unit or so to make up. So it was in the summertime. We finished here in the summer, just a small class. I still have a ring from 1946. What's that, 60 years? (laughing) And the funny thing about it was this was – you can't even see it, its all worn down, but I think it said 1945 and whoever finished in '45 pawned it. So, I got the ring and they changed the 5 into a 6. MB: That's great. RH: Isn't that something. This was the big thing during those days, pawning things. People were just poor. People used to pawn their winter clothes in the summer and they'd have to get it out in the wintertime. (laughing) A lot of us worked downtown - ______ stores were in town. Steins, and Opio and Oak Horn. No malls so everything was in town. A lot of us worked there for about $6 or $7 a 3 �week. But you could go out – like we'd go to Henry Street on a Sunday with $2. And that's what you did just dressed up. They had dances down at the Roanoke Auditorium. They wanted 85 cents – the big bands, all the big bands too. MB: Which ones do you remember? RH: Duke Ellington came here and Erskine Hawkins and Benny Goodman – just all the big bands that you can think of during those days. I remember they were making $25 a night and the leader got $50 and they was traveling all over the country. When you look at these documentaries about these big bands and these people, just remember that they were traveling but they were doing these things but they weren't making but something like that. I've seen some of 'em on Henry Street go across the street where there was a rummage sale. They didn't stay overnight at the Dumas but they just stayed there to eat and to freshen up. I've seen 'em go across the street to the rummage sales and get some clothes. 'Cause once they finished playing, they would hop on the bus and go to another town. And Duke Ellington used to have a Pullman Coach and I know – That's how he traveled. But I know that once they didn't want to bring it up from North Carolina or something, he had to miss a gig or something 'cause he was always elegant with everything. But he would either rent one or – so the whole band could travel by train and not by bus. It was exciting times. It really was. MB: Kinda backing up a little bit, do you remember when you all got a telephone or a refrigerator or any of those things? RH: You always had to go down the street and ask somebody to use their telephone. We had an ice box. You had a big sign you put on the outside and it had four corners to it. One would say 25, 50, 75 or 100 which lets the ice man know how many pounds of ice you wanted. And he'd bring it around the back. Had this little rubber thing on his back so when he carried the ice. He had the little tongs that you picked the ice up with. Sometimes, it would be heavy and he would have it on his back and its so strange, the ice box and the biggest problem was make sure you change that water in the ice box 'cause the ice would drip and it was always running over if you forgot about it. It didn't hold much. With the piece of ice in there and you try to squeeze a watermelon and a bottle of milk in there, that's all you could get in there. That's what we used to keep things cold. I can't even remember when we got the telephone. I don't even remember when we got a telephone. Isn't that something? I do know we had the ice box and the man would bring up – most of the time it was 25 pounds. But, we'd buy peaches by the bushel so mom could can some. I'd get 2 bushels and we'd be eating one while she's trying to can. My aunt made dandelion wine. We used to pick dandelions. I look at these dandelions and I said that they're just going to waste. We used to to pick dandelions in a little gallon bucket that you got, a lard can that you got the lard in and we would pick a few pails for that and make dandelion wine. 0.20.34.6 MB: Did you all have a garden? RH: I don't think so. My granddaddy had 2 horses and he did plowing. He went out and did plowing at the fields. I think he plowed fields for people. I don't remember. I know we had chickens. MB: In your yard? RH: Yeah. And my brother raised rabbits. I wouldn't be able to watch him kill one. He raised rabbits. We all had pets, the guinea pigs and stuff like that. MB: Do you remember some of the stories that were passed down in your family from one generation to another? Any you could tell us? RH: Hmmm. Off hand, I can't really MB: Any memories of the Civil War or before that or reconstruction or anything at all? RH: Momma would've been the one to know more about – Its just probably going back before our time and how they had to survive. I can't remember off-hand them saying anything. I know we have talked about when she was coming up as a little girl and stuff like that. I think she was teaching somewhere down South. There are some things on paper somewhere I guess. I'd have to look it up. 4 �MB: Tell us about your military service, when it was and where you went. You told us a little bit. 0.22.39.0 RH: That was in '43. I think it was '43. I was 18. I think first we went to Maryland. They called it a staging area. Then we went to Louisiana. Then we went to Liverpool, I think it was, England. I think it was about 11 days crossing the Atlantic. And the thing about it was it was an English ship Britannica, I think. It was an English ship and they boiled everything. The whole troop got sick from the way they cooked. Then, of course, it was a little tight too because the Germans had U-boats and stuff like that so as the whole convoy went, you had a lot of air protection. Then, after we left there, we went to France. A little after D-Day, I went to France. We stayed there until the war ended. Well, actually, we were going to the Pacific 'cause they had planned to try to invade Japan rather than – They felt that there were enough casualties invading France because thousands and thousands – the beach was just red with blood. And so, I guess, and, of course, this was an occupied country, France was. Not the enemy's country so to speak. Whereas there were enough casualties there where if you tried to invade Japan, it would've been a massacre 'cause they were well protected. We were ready to go to France. After the war ended in Europe, we were going to the Pacific but it just happened to end. We were at the Mediterranean. We were going through the Panama Canal to go to the Pacific but we were in the Mediterranean coming that way and it just so happened that the war ended while we were making that approach. So, they figured – the government did something smart once but they figured it would be cheaper to just let us come on home than to go. We just happened to be some of the first soldiers returning. That $10 suitcase I had (laughing) made out of cardboard. But I lost a lot of good things because we thought we were going all the way back to Louisiana and so all of our duffel bags they went there too. 'Cause I had collected water from the Atlantic Ocean, from the English Channel and all those places. And a lot of guys had gotten some of the German guns and so a lot of that stuff was lost. Never got back to it. Takes me back. Through the years. We were in England and then we went to France, just went through Paris. Don't let 'em off here, we'll never find 'em again. (laughing) We'll never find 'em again. They'd all go AWOL. We had come right after the invasion, the city was just leveled. One thing I heard that somebody had planned, I think even Hitler had planned to blow the Eiffel Tower and all that stuff. And some general didn't follow the order which – I think I was reading in some history lesson, because I was always wondering why they didn't. When you're retreating, usually when you retreat, you just blow up everything as you retreat. So that was a fortunate thing that the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triumph, they could've just blown that away. But somebody wanted to spare it. And then we just came back home. Then I started doing some studying of – Well you had the GI Bill of Rights that you could study. I think I studied everything. Typing and shorthand, that's what went together and brick laying. Then I was going to music. I decided to go back to music. There was a Professor Gorham, he was teaching. I had seen this ad in the paper, in the Down Beat I think it is of the school in Boston. So I wrote to it. The thing about it that was really ironic was I wrote to it and they sent me this brochure and it was 1 black fellow in there, in this old brochure. It looked like a band practice or something. So, to apply, I had to go down to the VA office. Its where the Times building is now. I had to go down to the VA office. So the guy who was interviewing me, he said – I had to get the approval of them that the government would be paying. So he looks in this book and he says, “I see you can go to this school.”. Sometimes you think about what would've happened if certain things else had happened in your life. If you did this or if this hadn't happened and it was so strange. He said – Well I guess if that picture hadn't been in there, he might've just assumed that I couldn't. So, we wrote to the school and it was approved. Then the second bombshell that was – the GI Bill was gonna end that September. We had it for about 5 years, it was '51. So I think it must've been from '46 to '51. And it was the end that September. So when I got in school – when I went to school, it was like July or August and they said the school was closed for the summer. I said, “Well I gotta get in here. When its opened again, it'll be too late.”. So they just registered me anyway to make sure that I was in there. 5 �And that was another quirk of fate. I guess if I hadn't gone to school in Boston, I never would've _____. So you never know what twists and turns happens in your life because of certain things. And then my children wanted to be there. Wouldn't it be something if say I'd never gone to Boston. (laughing) But life is supposed to be like it is. 0.30.04.2 MB: Back here in Roanoke, what were some of the store and businesses that you and your family went to? RH: I think on every corner you had a grocery store. Usually it was Syrians. 'Cause we had one on this corner and one across the street, Ferris. We used to call it Ferris. They were poor. They were really poor. (laughing) I think they had a baby every year. We were watching that flat, unleven bread that they used to give out. These were the neighborhood stores. But usually there was a store everywhere. There was one down on 6th here. There was one up on Loudon. I mean a grocery store was on every corner just about. But then, of course, you went to town to really get what you needed. We used to go there on Saturday nights and I always wondered why momma bought me a wagon for Christmas. I'd pull the wagon down on Saturday night. You bought things in pecks and bushels and pints. They had those peck cans. The first time I heard something about it, spinach by the pound. I said, “You buy it by the bushel or the gallon”. But momma used to go there last thing and like you had one of these gallon cans and she bought a gallon of potatoes. If he had about 2 or 3 potatoes left over. It wasn't enough. So she would strategically be at places like that. There wouldn't be enough left over to make another sale so the man would put the few in there. Then you bought peanut butter out of a big can and you scooped it up. And little things like that. MB: Was that down on the market? RH: Yeah, down on the market. MB: And you all would take it home on the wagon? RH: She'd ride the bus home and I'd pull the wagon home. (laughing) 5 cents. MB: That's a lot of food. RH: Yeah, and it was about a dollar. We had relatives out in Slate Hill (??) too which is just about Tanglewood now. And we used to go out there and they had everything, hogs and chickens and guineas and all kinds of fruits and stuff. I used to walk out there, about 5 or 6 miles, and give the bus driver a handful of cherries and he'd drive us back. Isn't that something? I don't know what he probably was making. It didn't cost but 5 cents to go out there and he'd just let us in. We'd pick a whole thing of cherries and he'd just get a handful of cherries and let us ride the bus home. (laughing) Isn't that weird. I wonder what was he making. I worked with people who made $11 a week and they were taking care of their family. Tight, tight, tight. Its just all about money now anyway. You really don't get any more. If a loaf of bread costs a dime then and its costs a dollar now, we'd rather have that dollar to buy that loaf of bread than to have the dime. Its the amount of money you have. Its not what it will do for you. I think that's what we're into now. People would give you 2 cents to go to the store. 15 cents to clean the snow. These kids want 5 and 10 dollars to clean the snow off. But you can't blame 'em too much because everything costs for them. They have to pay a dollar to go on the bus just like everybody else. I saw 2 kids going out to I think it was Crossroads. They must've had to pick up something for their mother. I think it was a party or something. Maybe the cups or something. Well, she had to pay $4.80 for them to go out and come back. It was $5 for them to go out and come back just to pick that up. So that's why everybody wants a car or something. It was just things happening. The grocery stores were mostly where you dealt. MB: The corner grocery? RH: Yeah, the corner grocery. They had 'em on just about every corner. 0.35.05.3 MB: Did you go up to Henry Street very much? 6 �RH: Oh yeah. Lived there. (laughing) That was where you would go for the movies unless you went downtown to the Roanoke Theater. You'd go to the Roanoke Theater around the back on Kirk but you had to up about 10 flights up in there to get to it. The Virginia Theater was the one we went to. I think the highest was 35 cents for the movie on Sunday. And you could make the day with about a dollar. The 5 cent hot dogs, 5 cent sodas, stuff like that. MB: Did you have some favorite businesses on Henry Street? RH: There were 2 or 3 restaurants and 2 or 3 pool parlors and Mac and them at the hotel had the Barlows who had the Dumas there, I think they had an ice cream parlor named Jack and Jill Ice Cream Parlor. Mostly, it was just hangouts and I think Wagstaff had his TV – later on when TV came and the guys in there had a record shop and – The business was probably a pool parlor. That where we would hang out. And the barber shops and pool parlors and some taxi stands there. I think a couple of restaurants. And then you came on down the hill. I think later on they put the Star City up there, the dance hall. _______ moved up there a little later on. And another pool parlor and I think barber shop. MB: Did you go to the Gainsboro library? RH: Oh yeah. Miss Lee. MB: When you were little? RH: And the Y too, right across the street. MB: The old Y? RH: Yeah. Over to the Y, a lot of time. MB: What do you remember about the library? Mrs. Lee, do you remember her? RH: I remember that I went down there, I don't know how long ago and we were going to get the complete works of Shakespeare. (laughing heartily) They were probably saying, “What's the point of letting him have this?. He's not going to be reading the complete works of Shakespeare”. I think I was more in the Y than I was in the library. And then they had something on Henry Street, a Y or a Boy's Club on Henry Street. MB: Tell us about some of the people you looked up to in those years. RH: Well, I guess we thought more about the teachers and the ministers. Those were the people that you MB: Any in particular? RH: I can't remember anybody in particular that I actually looked up to. I don't guess we ever thought about we were looking up to somebody. Unless it was somebody just a little older than you. Maybe like your older brother or something like that or one of their friends. I used to copy them – Those that knew a little bit about music, I would try to steal what they had played. And plus I think those that were in the same thing, photography – The looking up to was just trying to copy them more than a real admiration. 'Cause you got to realize you were in a segregated situation where everybody was – I don't know whether you thought about looking up to anybody 'cause during that time, you probably had white movie stars, you know what I mean? You were programmed more to look up to people outside of your race. Well, maybe like the Rockefellers or something like this. But I never thought too much about – You got the barbers and you got the ministers. I never even thought about looking up to anybody. You know what I mean? It never carried that way. 0.40.19.8 MB: What do you remember about the Civil Rights Movement? RH: I was in Boston during that time and they was really carrying on. But there have been a lot of instances of racism while I was here. MB: Can you tell us about some of them? RH: I know one thing that I kinda resented. They had these young white salesmen downtown and they would call mother “Esther”. They'd just call her by “Esther”. This always bothered me a little bit. I had a lot of white friends – A lot of kids down at the hill there and we just got along fine. We never 7 �really did think about the separating. We knew when we went down to the Roanoke Theater, they would go to different theaters. But I had a little band here in the '40s and it was 2 white guys and 2 black guys. MB: What was it called? RH: Well this particular group – The big band that I had was called the Sharps and Flats and one was called the Chromatics. But I know that we would go to the train station after we played and they had to go on one side to the restaurant and we had to go to the other side. And then, I had this one guy who was, Johnny Hayslip (??), he's gone now. I had to hold him down 'cause so much racism that he just wanted to show off. (chuckle) I think we went to one place that maybe his girlfriend who was white and when we were taking a break, we all sitting in the same booth and I know the managers didn't take too well to that. I don't know whether – It was just a general – When you grow up in it, its so much a part of your life that you don't think too much about it, racism. Unless its overly done. But you just – They lived over here and we lived over there. It was just separate and you knew about it. We had a lot of – Well one thing, they were more welcome here – because I know of a place called the Elks Club. We used to go up to Elks Club with this white guy. There were a lot of things going on. There was a lot of mixture there. The feeling of togetherness between the races was much better than the actuality 'cause even white people had been programmed and so were we. We didn't experience any real – like in the deep South, I don't think. MB: How did Roanoke seem to you when you came back? You came back much later. Did you see many changes? RH: No. (both laughing) They ain't done no changing. They still the same. Except for the physical change you know of the city. And of course there were advances. You had a black mayor and you got black people on City Council. I think they used to appoint somebody. I can remember C. C. Williams wife. I think back in my days, they didn't have that particular election for people on City Council. It was a token thing. They would make sure they had one black on there so they really didn't have to work that hard to be on there because they knew it was going to be a token thing. That's the big change because now – It was because of integration but to see all these people in higher offices. I mean, you got police chief and you got all that type of stuff. That makes a big difference. 0.45.04.0 MB: And you saw Gainsboro change a lot after urban renewal. RH: Oh yeah, from Northeast? Oh yeah. 'Cause I used to work for the Roanoke Housing. There were a lot of changes. Everything is gone, totally gone. But I don't say that it was really all that bad because some of the areas were pretty bad areas anyway because of the poverty level of people. Some of them moved on which makes it better. That was the big sweep to do that. And then the highway coming through and all of this. So, there's just been fussing about something all along but change has to come. MB: You were probably coming back to visit from Boston so you would see it. RH: Yeah, you could see it. You could see the changes especially on Henry Street. Little by little, the buildings fell to pieces, stuff like that. You could see the changes. But its a new day. That's what it is. Its just a new day and we couldn't expect it to be the same things going on. MB: Anything else you want to tell us. Anything at all. RH: I'll whisper it to you. (both laughing) I kinda hope that they will just bury Henry Street. You can't revive something that during that time there was no TV, very few people had cars. It was segregated. You couldn't go anywhere else. And now the young people now are not the type of young people as we were young people, you know, 15 ½ gotta have a car. Things like this. That's why I wish we would just bury it and go on and let it go rather than feel that somebody has taken something from you. Its just time has taken – Time has changed things. I heard once they were trying to – they were going to make these space stations and someday there will be interstellar travel and all that kind of 8 �thing. But as human beings, will we be any better you know with all the progress and all the electronics and all the convenience. We still just – People still got their problems and so we gotta do some changing on the inside instead of trying to run from it. Anyway. (laughing) C'est la vie. Alicia Sell: Thank you. Thank you very much. MB: It was wonderful. I could listen to you 'til next week. RH: So much has happened. MB: There's so many (recording stops) 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Robert Hale Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Robert Hale Interviewer: Mary Bishop Date: 16 December 2006 Location: Harrison Museum of African American Culture Total Duration: 48:47 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 16 December 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bob Hale; Mary Bishop; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HaleBob https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2646/Claytor_Walter_16_Oct_2006.mp3 57e19ab44a9c9543248961abbec6926e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2646/ClaytorWalter.pdf 0621b67bfa98a6fa466c7e45be99ee4a PDF Text Text Interviewee: Walter Claytor Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Andrew Sterling CL: My name is Carla Lewis and I'm the Gainsboro Branch Manager. Today is December 16, 2006. I am going to interview Dr. Walter Claytor. Dr. Claytor, when and where were you born? WC: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, 406 N Jefferson Street in Roanoke, Virginia. CL: Can you tell me something about your parents? We'll start with your parents and then go through your brothers and sisters, where they lived and occupation. WC: My dad was 1 of 13 children from Floyd County, Virginia. Its down the road from where you're living now at the present time. There were 10 boys in the family and 3 girls. At the time, more or less, one step in front of slavery. His father was a slave as well as mother. They came from over near Ferrum, Virginia, Calloway, in that section. They lived there. All of 'em had taught school at that time. He went into medicine and 3 others went into medicine and they were farmers and school teachers and ______. My mother was from Knoxville, Tennessee. CL: Can you give me her name? WC: Roberta Morris Woodfin. Most of her life she was in Tennessee. My dad and they were married in Bristol, Tennessee. My mother's father was a Presbyterian minister and they were friends to the Downings here in Roanoke at the Presbyterian Church. My mother came up to visit the Downings and whatever happened – My dad went to the train station with a horse and buggy to pick her up. And, of course, he was immediately struck by her. And, of course, he took the long way home to get there. You got all that history early enough but that's the way they met and, of course, one thing led to another. They married in Bristol, Tennessee, and then she came to live in Roanoke with him. Their first home was on the corner of Gilmer Avenue and Henry Street. I don't know if you were here at the time the Dew Drop Inn was there and what not. That was a very prominent place at one time before they started urban renewal and what not. So they were there until they built a home on Jefferson Street and it was built around 1922, '21 or '22. Very unique situation at that time. It was in the Jim Crow era, time. The house was too large for a black man to own. You couldn't find contractors that would build it. So my mother's father came to Roanoke and built it for her and, of course, they brought workmen out of Tennessee to come up here to do the job. That house ended up being one of the largest homes in Southwest Virginia, one of the finest including even the whites in Roanoke. They never wanted to own up to it but it was very much there and it had 22 rooms in it. It was quite a large place in that day. With the hardwood floors and central heat and things of this nature. In those days, blacks just didn't have homes like that, I'll put it that way. It served all of us and that's what I meant when I said my mother kept us busy. The home was on an acre of land and, of course, between cutting the grass and the upkeep and washing walls and whatever it took. Cutting grass kept us all busy so she knew what to do to keep us going. There's no doubt about that. So there was 8 of us that were born. The early ones were born in the home. Later one, they were birthed at Burrell Hospital at the time that was formed, you know, whatever. Anything specific with my mother or dad that you wanted to know? CL: Your brothers and your sisters, can you name them or can you tell us a little bit about their occupations? 0.04.55.6 WC: As I said, there were 8 of us, 2 boys, 2 girls, 2 boys, 2 girls. The 2 older boys finished Medicine at Meharry Medical College. That would be Frank W. Claytor and John B. Claytor. Frank was in Internal Medicine and John B. was in Obstetrics GYN. Bernice, a girl, married a Lewis Bodie and she was a Medical Technologist. Roberta got her training because _____ as teacher, she had her Doctorate or what not in Mathematics and she taught in schools in Washington, DC, whatever. She finished Chicago University, one of the youngest to do it. Her first teaching experience was at Christiansburg 1 �Institute and I think she finished around '21 or '22 _____ at the time. Brother Ralph went to Hampton and all of the boys had been previously in the military service. And, of course, I was the 4th. My mother was determined to keep me out of it. Of course, I wanted to go. I guess the uniform, looking at the girls in those days, it was something you wanted to do. I wasn't looking at the seriousness of it, I was looking at the other end of it. (laughing) So that's the way that went. But anyway, all of 'em except Ralph had gone to Knoxville College in Knoxville, Tennessee. Its a small Presbyterian college there and our connection with Tennessee with _____ my grandparents. That's where they had gone to school also and what not. Ralph went to the school where my father went to which was Hampton Institute. I don't know if that was university or institute or where they was in those days, you know, whatever. My dad had taken his medical training at Shaw. I believe it was in North Carolina I believe at the time. Ralph had finished – I called him a mechanic but they called it Automotive Engineering. It was a fancy term, you know, for this type of thing. Of course, when he came back home, he operated a service station that was on the property at the time. I went to Knoxville also. I only took 2 years though and then I went to Nashville for summer courses at Tennessee AMI (??) and then 4 years at Meharry Medical College for my Dentistry. Finished also at the age of 21. I worked for the Burrell Clinic when I first came home, for indigent children. That's before we got the clinic built and before I started to practices. It was an experience but it was a little donation, you know, for the kids of Roanoke. You know, they had nowhere – well, they had somewhere to go too but money and things of that nature, things was awful tight, whatever that you do that. Then, I was there 2 years and then I also had to go to service and spent 2 years in service, 18 months in Alaska, Alaska Air Command. That's where I met the wife and had enough sense to bring her to Roanoke and worked it out. And the first year after I finished which was in '48, the clinic was built and we moved into that January of '49. So I was there 2 years before when I took military service and came back. And then practiced there for 45 years before I retired, whatever. That brings you up to '93 I guess it is if you work it out. CL: OK, thank you. Did you have extended family living nearby, aunts, uncles, cousins? WC: That house, during the time, between relatives and I guess the ministers and the doctors that came through town and during that day and time, blacks couldn't just stay just anywhere that you wanted to stay. You couldn't go to the hotels and, of course, the Holiday Inns and those things were just beginning to come in in later years. So usually, you had to know some people and you stayed with them or you stayed at the church lot. Many a night, we slept in the car all night. You'd drive and you had nowhere to stay and you spent the night on the road. So, rather than do that, you'd go to a community and then you'd find a black section of town and you'd sleep in the church lot in the car or whatever 'til the next morning and then you'd drive. You also had to pick certain filling stations that you could go to because all of 'em wouldn't, particularly in the South, they wouldn't serve blacks or whatever in those days when you had the Klu Klux Klan and this kind of thing going on. So, had a hard life in some ways but it was interesting at the same time. It prepared you for other experiences and other things that were going on, you know, with 0.10.10.0 CL: Can you describe your home life? You started describing your home at one time. For instance, did you gather around the radio in the afternoons and can you remember when you had your first telephone, refrigerator. WC: The telephone was there all my life. I guess the patients would call my dad and we had the drug store down on the corner there which was the – It was Gainsboro Pharmacy but that's not the first one, there was a – don't remember that – Dr. Skinner who lived up on Patton Avenue, 216 was the first pharmacist that was there. We ended up with Dr. F.A. Robinson, that's Foreman Robinson was the pharmacist at that time. Most of our time with a large family which I started to mention about the physicians and ministers or whatever that came. There has never been a time that I can remember that you didn't have 8 or 10 people sitting down at a meal whether it was breakfast, lunch or dinner or 2 �whatever. In reading the question I remember one year, the fondest time I think would be when all the children were home and its something we've always done all our life with the parents is to come home. Its not like kids today that don't speak to each other. They don't know each other. But our family was a unit and it was there. My dad being a physician, he got up early in the morning. He went to the hospital and did his surgery or whatever. He had office hours in the evening as well as the night. And his time of rest or whatever was at 4 o'clock and no matter where you were or what you were doing, you knew that he was coming home to dinner at 4 o'clock and you were to be there. My mother didn't run a cafeteria. It wasn't these things that each one eats at different times. You come in and you sit down at that table and you do not touch anything 'til my dad said the blessing. You know? Everybody ate together and this is where you talked or you whatever goes on for the day or whatever you'd have to do at that time. Thanksgiving and Christmas, my grandfather being in manual training and builder and what not, we'd put the leaves in the table and stretched it out and that was not square but oblong. The dining room was a – I mean the breakfast room was a round table with leaves in it and he made a little section to go through it. And you'd have 27 or 28 people sitting down at a meal. You'd put a turkey on one end and a ham on the other (Clap and laughing) and it disappeared. And, of course, the kids, we all had to help set the table or you washed the dishes or you cleaned up after and this type of thing but it would be my grandparents, my mother's father and mother came when I was a youngster, my grandfather's people stayed there also upstairs. You didn't have nursing homes and this thing. We all had to do this at home and we were all taught that very young. You know, this sort of thing. The cousins that you mentioned, there were several of 'em. They came down from Florida or Christiansburg or whatever and stayed with us also. Of course, they helped out around the house or whatever work they could do. This is where they went to school to give 'em a little training in high school or whatever and they attended Addison whatever. Most of us went to the Gainsboro School and then we came up to Harrison here for 1 year which is a junior high I guess you'd call it. Only a year or two years. I think it was one year and then went over to the old Addison not the new one. That's where that was for the rest of our time here spending in that regard. You've got to point me a little bit. I'm rattling off but I think this is what you asked. Its what you wanted. (laughing) CL: What kind of activities did you participate in? WC: You mean besides working? (laughing) CL: Yeah. 0.14.31.9 WC: During the late '30s, my parents had bought a farm out at Kingstown. It was about 18 ½ acres and my mother fixed up – we had a swimming pool on it. And she fixed up a thing that church groups would come out and have picnics and this type of thing. And, of course, we worked out there with that. As the older kids left – My younger life was in Tennessee with my grandparents and then as the older brothers and sisters left home to go to college then the younger ones like my sister Ruth and Ralph and we came from the grandparents into Roanoke. So, we had to pick up where they left off to do the work. My days of high school, I think about feeding the hogs and milking cows and chickens. I didn't have the chance to rip and run around town like a lot of kids did, this type of thing. We had chores to do and this type of thing. I didn't try basketball but I did try football at the time. You know, whatever. And other than that, I didn't have much time for anything else except working. When you talk about milking cows, that's a morning and night. That's everyday. You don't put it off. You've got to do it everyday. CL: Did you sit on the front porch and did your parents sit on the front porch in the afternoons when the chores were done? WC: I would say sometimes that that happened like that. You know the house and you're familiar with it. The porch went around the whole front and part of the side and yes, there were times that we would be out there particularly if the weather was nice. You know, what not. Of course, First Baptist Church 3 �was across the street from there and, of course, we'd sit and talk with the neighbors and people visited more in those days than they do today. Didn't have television but you did have radio. If he didn't know them, they knew him. This was just something that – the yard was full or church let out. It was just something that you did. Now, First Baptist was his church. My mother's church was Presbyterian. That's where most of us were. But Reverend James, as I remember, was the minister there and you could go over there to the first church in the morning to go to bible study or Sunday School. Anyway, that service started at 11:00 or whatever. But see my church, we're out by 12:30/1:00. But you never get out of Baptist church 'til 2:00 or later. (laughing) So then a funeral would come up. You'd never know when the church service was over and the funeral had started because he never stopped preaching and he'd tell the undertaker, “Just bring 'em on”. And he'd come on into there and bring the casket on in and he keeps talking and its been many-a-day that they were over there until 5:00/5:30 before that church ever let out. (laughing) Sometimes two funerals and you'd just never know. That's what I grew up with. You know, this type of thing. But many days, the people were there, the family and you're waiting for church to let out. They lined up waiting to come in the church and he had never finished the sermon. And ___ came in and he finally just told 'em, “Bring 'em on in” and they'd stay all day. But in our day – Let me be honest about this. I am honest but I mean I'm trying to fill in – By not having the different social places and the different things to go to in the black community, church was one of our central things to do. As a result, if it wasn't in there, they made visits to the sick at the hospital and things of that nature. But that was not only part of entertainment but it was social but it tied the black community together that we knew and they knew us. And that meant an awful lot. I know one of the questions that you were asking about urban renewal which ____ on in but that is a difference between white Roanoke and black Roanoke. There were two Roanokes. People don't know this. They don't want to recognize it. Blacks had their own things compared to the white side. We never had sewers, disposal or water things (??). That's not what I'm referring to. Hospitals yes. Banks building and loan, eating places, things of that nature that we had. That's one of the things that I – I always feel bad about it in Roanoke because they tore up one of the best black communities in the South and that is no joke. You had more going for you in Roanoke than any community in the South, bar none. I'm not talking about Atlanta now. No, no. I'm talking about our size. Atlanta is straight for blacks all over, everybody knows that. Charlotte, Atlanta. For our size, Roanoke, there's nothing to touch it but that was destroyed beginning in the '50s and its still going on today because they still can't get Henry Street straight and what's going on. It wasn't that we tore it up, the whites tore it up by not understanding what they were doing. And that is still going on. Millions and millions of dollars been spent and the town has been hurt by it, particularly the black community anyway. Its the whites too because you've got, what, a third or a fourth of people that are against the city. That's bad. To my mind. 0.20.27.9 CL: Did your family have stories that they passed down from generation to generation that you all still pass down today? WC: That depends on what kind of stories you're referring to Carla. (laughing) CL: Every family would say, “Well, your granddaddy was such and such” and maybe they passed it down and then when you got it, you passed it down to your children. They would tell a story about the grandfather or WC: It gets down to whether you're referring to the truth or the what exactly you put on somebody as to how it works. (laughing) All families have some kind of stories of some kind but I was at the experiences. I don't necessarily say they're stories because we had some wonderful experiences and different things that have happened and __________. __________ a few wrecks in your life and going back and forth to school when you have all these different events. You know, different things happen. I don't mean that they were bad, you know, type of thing but its just average life or whatever that you're 4 �doing but you always remember somebody did something and pulled a boo boo (??). You laugh and joke about it even today. You know, those type of things but its more family things. Its not a thing about talking about other people its just things that happened within the family. CL: Let me narrow it down a bit. Maybe the Civil War would ring a bell or slavery. WC: Civil War. Before my day honey. (laughing) CL: Civil War stories that were passed down or slavery. You know, sometimes they had a story they would tell during slavery how a certain person did certain things. WC: Not too much in slavery in my deal. What I'm going to refer you to here now as you know, its in your library. You have a book “Virginia Kaleidoscope”. It should be. CL: I have it. 0.22.26.6 WC: Gainsboro and there's one here at the Harrison Heritage I know. There are others in town that will give you all the history of the Claytors and a lot of other things. Even more than I can tell you now. I can remember – As I said, my father's sisters, that would be my aunts. It was 3 girls and the 10 boys. They never dwelt with that type of thing. Its something that's not taught to us. We were taught to respect people. You do your thing and if you do it properly, you don't have to worry about the rest of it. We rode the Gainsboro bus. It was all black anyway. ___________ hospital to make the circuit. We rode the front of the train. We rode the back of the bus. This type of thing. When I cam along, the library was not where it is at this time. It was across the street at the Artfelder's (??) building on the corner. Miss Virginia Lee at the time was the librarian and then her name was Beatrice Mitchell and we know her as “Sugar” Mitchell was there for years. Where you are at the present time was a foundry. That land is owned by the Catholic Church and leased to Roanoke City as long as they have a library there. The man that ran that foundry was named Shanks and his kids would come down the hill on the weekends when they put the fire out and they dropped the grate out of it and all these hot ashes and melted in the fire, whatever, and they would empty this until next Monday 'til they built the fire again. We saw all the sparks flying, all of this going on, whatever. Fascinating to the children and this is where we'd all end up when they shut it down for the weekend. First thing I can remember in learning to ride a bicycle was one of my first jobs. When I got out of school, my job was to deliver the medicine to people over the city that had ordered prescriptions or what not. You delivered in those days. You didn't have to necessarily have to go to the drug store to get it. But that's one of the first things that I did was learn the city at that time. And if I stopped, I played marbles or played something in the street or whatever, but if anything happened, you better believe that “Dr. and Mrs. Claytor, your son” – they knew. Yes, there was a phone. It didn't have to be the ringing kind. But whatever it is, the word got back home. (laughing) I remember that very well. That's the type of thing – That's just the life but colleges, everything was segregated, yes. But its something to not let that bother you or stop you from doing. You don't go to places that do not welcome you through the front door. We don't go to the movies in the back alley and climb steps and this type of thing. If nobody wants you around then you don't force yourself on 'em. You don't spend your money for people that don't respect you. That's just a training. You just don't do this. There's other places to buy or to do or whatever you had to do. That don't mean everyday somebody beating you in the head, this, that and the other. Its just some things that you grew up with that you knew. Then, in the medical profession in my life or whatever, its always been a situation that someone needs your service or your help. I can remember my dad telling me when I finished medical school. He wanted to know where I was going to practice. And, of course, at that age, at 21, you've been scuffing all your life. The first thing you've been studying, you haven't had a chance to get out and party and do the things that other people do and this kind of thing. Its a matter of money. I received this lecture about its not about money, that you went into a service field and that's what you are expected. I ended up in Roanoke. Its where you're needed. (laughing) So that's the way that works. I'm kinda filling up a little bit thinking about things. Its carrying me back a 5 �ways. But there were good times, this type of thing. And it was true what he told me. It was something that – It wasn't the money. Your pleasure will come from being well-respected. You will live a comfortable life and its kinda an honor or whatever. And that meant more to you than all the money they could give you. And that's what happened. CL: That is exactly true. WC: It turned out to be the truth. CL: The honor. I know what you're talking about, the honor. WC: I'll never forget it. I haven't thought about it for years. (laughing) CL: Thank you for sharing it with us. What is your fondest memory during childhood? 0.27.44.0 WC: Well, I think I pretty much expressed it already about when the family comes in and all the kids come back, my brothers and sisters, grandparents were there. You think 27/28 people sitting down together – I mean its just like a picnic or something. And everybody in the house and people coming and going and that's just good times. Its not like I had to go out to look for it or this type of thing and then, not only that, all the kids up and down the street, maybe they were invited. “Come on in”. You know, you'd eat with 'em and everything there together. You'd play in the yard, playing football, this kind of stuff in the yard and - But it all kinda dove-tailed into it and I hadn't really thought about it. Its just something that you did. But they were full days or whatever. CL: How long have you lived in the Gainsboro area? WC: All my life. Other than school time, you know, service. CL: And you lived on WC: 406 Jefferson Street. CL: Jefferson Street. WC: And then 802 Grayson. CL: Grayson. Has the Gainsboro area changed much over the years. 0.28.55.1 WC: Oh, tremendously. Tremendously. Let me see if I can separate Gainsboro from other parts. There's a situation of sections of town. I'm talking about black Roanoke now. You had Northeast Roanoke. You had Northwest Roanoke and you had West-end Roanoke. They were black. Henry Street was the middle of all of it which was the center of the black section of town. Henry Street, one street, but that also was two streets. And a lot of our people don't understand this. On Henry Street, you had movie theaters, doctor's offices, beauty shops, barber shops, hotel, eating places, ice cream parlors, club, daytime activities. Now at nighttime, the sun goes down, 10/10:30/11:00, there's another street. That's where all the boozing goes on. Ladies of the night if that's what you want to call 'em or whatever. But, the street jumped. Its a different type life. Women could go dressed daytime, you know, whatever, and nobody ever bothered you. Nobody – You've probably talked about this. If anything happened and you go across the bridge to white Roanoke, that's the railroad track divided you. They used to put up a little thing across there to block you off from going over to see if that was going to stop you. If blacks wanted to go over to white Roanoke, that wasn't going to stop you. You know, as far as the thing. The only thing was that at 10 or 10:30, the police would leave. They wouldn't stay up there late at night. So, Henry Street was on its own. Two streets. A lot of people – Even the blacks don't follow this completely, they don't understand it but you had not just one doctor's office, you had several doctor's offices was on Henry Street. You had 2 drug stores, black drug stores up there. ______ what are they Greeks or Lebanese or whatever. I don't know what they are, Moses or CL: Syrian. WC: Syrian. All the grocery stores in the neighborhood but they were all here too but we got along. We played together and all this business. I didn't never pay any attention to what they were, they were just there. One of these things. Excuse me, but all this took place on Henry Street. I can't say that any 6 �of it would be the Taj Mahal. They didn't make that kind of money. But what they did, and in many cases all of this section here was part – Gainsboro stopped at 5th Street as far as urban renewal part went – But you had certain sections of town that the people took pride in their properties. Not only their home but the yards were kept up. They were fixed up nice. You could go Gilmer Avenue and its just as nice as any street you'd want to see in Roanoke, white or black, whatever. Same thing as far as Harrison or up around the Burrell Hospital section, nice homes. This type of thing. Northeast was probably the first section of Roanoke when Roanoke first came into being in 1887 I guess it is and they used to call it row houses down where the Gregory School was. You don't know about that do ya? Something new for you. OK. Those were the first homes for the railroad workers, Norfolk & Western. And as they moved out, and then the blacks moved into that area where the 581 comes down through by the graveyard that you've seen here in the paper just recently. Whites were buried on that side of it. The First Baptist Church owns the rest of that where blacks are buried. They moved it but that's where the First Presbyterian Church was located. That's in the history I gave you some time ago on the Presbyterian Church. They put that church up on ox carts and moved it over on Roanoke Street and that was _____. They had a new brick church built at one time. It was Second Presbyterian, whatever, its got his name. I don't remember what that is. But the black congregation on – Reverend Honey's (??) church. What is that? Up in West-end Roanoke. CL: Roanoke Memorial. WC: Gosh, as well as I know that. Is that Loudon or that -? CL: Loudon's on 8th Street. 0.33.57.1 WC: No, wait a minute. It'll come to me. But anyway, they bought that church that was the Sunday School for the First Presbyterian Church and that's where they started their first church until they built it, the other one. That's where that came in. So that building was moved on ox carts twice up to that place now. OK, get back to Northeast. See, that's the older part of Roanoke. As the whites moved out, and the blacks moved into it. So that was the older section down around the gas company. This type of thing. The first urban renewal was in that part where the Civic Center is at the present. Now the city promised when that was to be done that that would be rebuilt as a black neighborhood rather than the businesses that are down there. So, once they got the land, then they reneged on it. As a matter of fact, the church, Mount Zion – No, that's not right, Gregory Mount Zion and built where the Civic Center is today because they thought they were going to be rebuilt. Then they had another urban renewal and since because the city, they didn't want to give 'em the money that they had paid to build the church. So they argued and fussed about it so the city finally gave 'em extra money because they tore down a brand new church. They took that land for the Civic Center and then 581 came through so that wiped out the whole black neighborhood again. So that was one lie. The second one Kimball Avenue, they gave the people $4,000 more to help them with the transition of moving because those in the lower section really got ripped off something awful. They had to go in debt. They lost everything they had pretty much. Kimball, they gave 'em $4,000 more to help 'em with the move. And Gainsboro, which was the last one, they promised 'em $15,000. Some of 'em got it and some of 'em didn't. But the point that I was leaning towards is that the pride of ownership has been destroyed. You had the – I want you to look up and down the street. They don't take care of 'em. They don't paint 'em. They don't keep the yards. The promise was that they were going to fix up the place. They're going to buy you out. Well, why fix it up if you're going to buy it. They had 2 houses adjoining. One lady had put a new roof on it and had fixed her place up and painted it. The house next door to it, identically the same thing, same sized lot, small lot, 40 or 50 feet is all they had. She got as much for her place that this other lady that put $8,000 to $10,000 in it to fix it up. It doesn't take long for the word to go around. “Well what am I going to fix it for. You're not going to give me no more money.” And that feeling is still today of what's going on. Now, they don't take the blame for it. They said, “We didn't do it.”. But that's the 7 �way it goes. Its something we didn't do. But that's what happens. And this is hurting Roanoke people today. And something else that is not recognized. They don't want to recognize. They funneled us all up to Northwest quarter whether or not you moved wherever you want to go. You can't borrow but so much money. That's the way that they restrict you and hold you down and this type of thing. They don't want to go anywhere. They like to stay together. That's the word that they give you. Its this type of thing. Block busting. Our people didn't go up and bother the whites that live up there in Rugby and all further west. They sent you up there and they paid our people to go into those places to break up the lot 'cause once the blacks moved in, they know the whites are going to move out. Now where the city made their mistake, which I've always said – They know it now. They didn't know it at the time. They did not go buy the homes for the white folks in the city. Now, when they ran 'em out of the city, they took the money with 'em. Now the city is scrambling, need money and now they're trying to fix the places up downtown to get these people back in here. But you've run 'em all out in the county, _____ park and all over town and up in Salem and all this business. They carried the money with 'em. They kept the blacks. They kept the welfare but the money left. Let's face it. You won't see that in the paper. They won't put that out for ya. But you understand what I'm saying. Now, we didn't bother those white people. That wasn't the problem. If they'd have fixed up what they promised to do, we were perfectly happy. All they had to do was to do what they promised. When the Civic Center, before it was built, the citizens had turned down the old American Legion Auditorium on 2 occasions. They didn't want it. So what did they do? They burned it. I shouldn't word it that way. It conveniently caught fire and burnt down. I think that's a better way of putting this. I can't say they because I don't know who did it. But anyway, it caught fire and burnt. They turned it down so then they took that and moved it from – that's right down where the Hotel Roanoke is – You know where that is? - That's where it used to be. Its a parking lot now. And they built the Civic Center. Now they got a big thing going on now, they can't get their mind together. Roanoke is land-locked. You're either going down or you're going up. You add all this thing on the back of the Civic Center, you've got no parking. How can you have affairs if you can't park to get to it? They cleared the land across on Orange Avenue back on the other side of the graveyard. So if you had put Victory Stadium or whatever over there, where are these people gonna park? Whatcha gonna do? You keep building it but you got nowhere to park. And if you can't get 'em in there by bus or train or something, what are you gonna do? No, they're gonna go somewhere else. But Roanoke is ________. I don't know whether they fall over their feet doing something but they're not thinking far enough ahead. All of our people – Let's put it this way, when you move places and all of our neighborhoods, this is neighborhood businesses. Alright, you've got zoning to contend with. Now if you had a grocery store in Northeast or somewhere, and they buy you out and that's the only business you've ever done all your life then where do you go? If they move you up to Northwest or somewhere else, what land is available that's zoned that you can have your grocery store. And that's not a supermarket where people come from all over town to your place. That's neighborhood business. So if you take away the neighborhood, you've lost your business. My work, dentistry, same boat. I lost my business. Even though I'm a doctor. I lost and everybody else lost their business. And Burrell Hospital at one time, you had 8 or 10 active physicians active staff, 6 or 7 dentists, black I'm talking about. Where are they today? Not only did the new ones come in and left Roanoke then it was to the old ones to die or a couple of us retired. The rest of 'em gone. Nobody here. Those are the people that you have a question there “Who did you look up to? Who were your role models?”. Maybe in a sense, I'm a role model for some people but they were also my role models because this was our community and this is what we had. At one time, you either became a doctor, you became a lawyer or you were a school teacher and that was the top 3 professions for blacks. But now its open to a lot of things. Our best jobs in the years would be Norfolk & Western. You had the silk mill. I think that was on your sheet. And those jobs offered you some type of retirement or something going on but nowhere else. Like if you did day work, taking care of people's children and their homes 8 �and this type of thing but you had nothing else to live on. You worked all your life and did the best you could for as long as you could. That's the way it worked. So once you destroyed this, you took the business away, all children, my friends and what not, they had little jobs like carrying groceries to people or whatever you did or the families of those businesses. Like in my case, there were several businesses within our block but there were other businesses. This is where the children got the training to do things, to have a business of your own. You didn't have central heat in a lot of places. You had coal stoves and wood but you had some job to do to come in to get that fire going and ashes out and got it ready for the next morning, you know, this type of thing. But kids had more to do at home than they do today. You didn't set the thermostat and go about your business. You had things to do. The homes around this area, all of 'em when I was a kid, you didn't have sewer. All up Patton Avenue, outhouses. You had to go outdoors. At the park, over at Washington Park its called, there was – I thought it was an artesian well. I didn't know any different. But that pipe that that water ran all the kids around from where we live here over to Addison had wagons and you had these 5 gallon cans that you carried that you hauled water to your home. That's every day you had to carry that water. And of course, the interesting part of the story is to talk about, if you want to get into some of that. You see, that's where the bootleggers ran too. (laughing) But those cans – They'd stop 'em, even the kids, but all the kids hauling liquor. You see you open the top on one end and that was water but when you turn the can over, there was liquor. We don't need to go into all that. (laughing) That's interesting. I'll tell you all about things you didn't know. (laughing) Those were the things that took place in those days. Its in my time that I can remember when sewer lines and things were put in and people had bathrooms put into the homes on the back porches or whatever. But those were outhouses. The house that my parents built, had 3 bathrooms in it with tile floors and all this and that. Oh honey, that was luxury. You're living. You know, its one of those things. But that was Roanoke when I was born. That's not only blacks. I mean, a lot of that was in town. That's pretty much all over. This type of thing. CL: And did most of the families own their own homes? 0.45.11.0 WC: A good many. A good many very definitely. They might not have been the finest thing. Alright, take all the homes and go up and down here, most of 'em on _______. It depends on your level or where you were. You might've had a mortgage for 20 or 30 years but in time but you owned it. And that's the way it went. But the point I was trying to make, in case you missed it, there were groups that took pride in what they were doing. It may not have been much but they owned it and they took as best they could with it. A lot of 'em knew more about carpentry work or doing roof or painting. Kids today don't know how to do anything. They haven't been taught. They don't know anything. They've got to hire somebody or they don't know what you talking – They can't even fix a bicycle. But that's something we all did. We fixed our own things. You made scooters or skates. I don't know if you remember this thing you took a roller skate after you wore the skates out. You took the wheels and put 'em on a board and you put the board up and you had your little scooter. You remember those things? You see, we made 'em. But that's what we had as kids. You might've had an iron ring with a little wire on it and that's what your toy was but you played, this kinda – You didn't have no computers and all that stuff like you got this stuff going on nowadays. You didn't have it but nobody told you were poor but you enjoyed what you had. You worked it out. CL: You said you remember the silk mill. WC: Oh, yes. CL: OK. How did that affect Roanoke Valley especially our community when it closed? 0.46.50.0 WC: I would say the silk mill hurt Roanoke Valley period, white and black. You had both people working at the silk mill. They broke that off into 4 or 5 or 6 different businesses that's out there. People on that side of town that worked at the silk mill or if you had a job at Norfolk & Western 9 �Railway, you were the hoipaloi (??). You were top of the line as far as salaries. You had better salaries and you had retirements or whatever they were. You had pensions I'm thinking about. You had health care and this type of thing and that was your better class of worker in that day. So when the silk mill closed, it hurt Roanoke. Most of the people in Southeast worked at the silk mill. And I was fortunate enough in my day as a practicing dentist that 16% of my patients were whites and a lot of 'em came from Southeast. So for me, in my work, at our level, it never bothered me black and white. If nothing else, one of the first things we learned in med school is the only difference was the pigment of your skin and this type of thing and then when you go into anatomy, I've seen that all, we'll skip all of that. (laughing) There's no problem. I've been all of it let me believe _____. Just the idea of what's the skin color, this type of thing, but that's the first thing they knock out of all doctors, that quick. There's no such thing as the top of the line. People are people and you treat 'em as such. Very seldom are you going to see a doctor that's going to pick up a, this type of thing like that. They're people. We were talking in my case were teeth but that's connected to the body and you've got to realize what that means to the rest of it and those type things. They knew that in general, most blacks came to school. That segregation and all that stuff was ingrained in 'em from the time they were kids. That somebody has always told 'em that white's better, that you're not as good and this type of thing. So that's one of the first things when you go in to be a doctor that ________. Get you straight to start with. There is no difference other than that color or absence of color and the fact that you've got melanin in your skin. And then they tell you why its so much better – I don't mean to low-rate you now or put you down – You don't have as many skin eruptions. You don't have the problems with our skin that your people do. If you're red-haired, if you're blond and all this stuff and you're out in that sun, you better get you some sunscreen quick 'cause you in trouble. You can stay out there all day and no problem. Well, you still have to be careful. I don't mean that type of thing but its just difference in people. I'm not saying that to down anybody, I'm just being factual about it. CL: Dr. Claytor, what other kind of jobs did the blacks have? You were talking about doctors and some worked in the silk mills and such. 0.50.19.4 WC: You worked with the city. You dug the streets for the water company, gas company, this type of thing. I remember we had that little farm out there. We'd go down on the market and pick up what we called day-workers. There were a lot of people that weren't interested in doing steady work all the time. They only wanted to work 3 or 4 days a week and then, he'd do what he wanted to do. Get drunk on the weekends, come back Monday and work some more and this type of thing. We'd go down and pick up workers and you know, things like that. All the farmers brought the produce into Roanoke and a lot of that, the city priced 'em out of it in many cases but the downtown farm section, it used to be a very bustling type of thing when I was a kid. A lot of the offices and ______ were down there but now, except for novelty shops and – You've got a few people come down sell flowers and 2 or 3 farmers but you've lost all of that around Roanoke now. All the farmers have either stopped farming or they sell their lands to development and things of this nature. Its not only Roanoke but this is hurting our country and our politicians haven't awakened to it. I just heard the other day that we don't even supply enough food for our country. That we import it. I didn't realize that. But as we build out and you don't zone the land and you're giving up farmland, you're depending on other countries for your food. You are running into trouble in 50 – I don't know how many years but down the road, you'll be just like you are with the oil people. They control us. They act like its not but that's the war's all about is controlling that oil. They don't care nothing about Iraq. They want that oil honey. No question. That's money. Black gold. (chuckling) CL: What are some of your memories of the Gainsboro library and Virginia Y. Lee? 0.52.16.9 WC: Well, being across the street from it, let's face it, I'm in it. And, of course, this business of Miss 10 �Lee was like a second mother to a certain extent. Not only to me but all of the children. She was just that type of person, type of thing to do. You know that building burnt and then of course you've got a building or two in there at the moment. I remember Dr. Paxton and Dr. Fears and different offices were up above there, whatever. At that time, the library was a little larger than this room but it was just a one room affair, you know, type of thing. But Miss Lee was very diligent about keeping a lot of different things particularly to the black race or about the effects that took place and things of that nature, you know. It was very good for me in a sense as I got older and I started practicing and a lot of times after you become a doctor and families begin to trust you or they ask you for advice and, you know, things of this nature and a lot of times the parents would talk to the children but they would ask the doctor about different affairs whether it was personal hygiene or whatever, you know, type of thing. I consider myself lucky in a sense. Rather than get involved in it. I got involved to a certain extent but if it got too much, it'd been worked out with Miss Lee and Mitchell that I could send the girls up to the library and let them get a little bit more rather than give 'em my version. (laughing) Its ______ for me to get send them to someone else get involved in ______. But they were very good at that. They worked it out. And I had 2 or 3 to come back later and thank me because it kinda put 'em on the right track and not get in trouble and the boys were pushing them at the time, you know and that type of thing and rather than to go too much into what to do and what not to do. I just let the older women take care of it and they accepted it and worked it better which took the load off of me which I was thankful. (laughing) And you work it out. And, of course, being young at that age, all the parents wouldn't necessarily appreciate me talking to a high school girl doing this type of thing. I mean, I'm 21/22 years old and, let's face it, and I sent them to somebody a little older and let them handle that. I wasn't married at the time see. But even so, at that age, that's just wasn't the thing to do. At least I didn't think it was. CL: Who were some of the role models that you had when you were coming up? 0.54.52.2 WC: You see, that's what I mentioned about all the physicians, the dentists and you belong to those society – Well, it wasn't a society but my dad belonged to all of 'em and my mother. Of course, in those days, I guess you had more home games. My dad was a great bridge player – mother. And they'd get together on occasion and people would come to the house and they had these little card sessions or bridge or whatever. They'd go to Dr. Roberts or Downing. You know, they'd just visit around, whatever type of thing doing and just different things. In my day when I came along, it was Canasta and Penuchle. You know, more so than bridge, at the time or whatever. But it was more house parties, more church affairs. As I said, you didn't have TV, this type of thing. We were busy but you had more home chores and things to do. You didn't have the time to do a lot of this. Everyday, “Oh, I ain't got nothing to do. I'm bored.”. I've never been bored in my life. I don't know what you're talking about. Never had the time to do the things I had to do. Its a lot of entertaining yourself. I think its hard for somebody who don't know what to do with as much reading and things to do. You've got to sit up and don't know what to do. I don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it. I've heard people talk about it but even retired – I wonder when I had time to work. (laughing) 'Cause its “Honey do this and honey do that”. Its one of these things. Its something to do all the time. I guess its the farm work. I wasn't a farmer but my dad came off the farm and my mother and we used to go to Floyd and had a big garden up there. She'd pile us all in that car and we'd go up that mountain and you'd weed that garden and you'd do whatever you'd do and ______ working out. But there's always something to do from morning 'til night. I just don't understand. What do you mean you don't have nothing to do. (laughing) Its never been in my vocabulary. I'll put it that way. CL: Dr. Claytor, is there anything you'd like to tell us that we haven't asked or did we leave out anything that you would like to say to us? WC: You got many more hours to stay here to do this? (laughing heartily) I think you've got about as 11 �much as you can digest. The only thing that I will say to you that if you would share the book, “Virginia Kaleidoscope”. There's much more in there than I can possibly tell you. The only thing that's not in it that has come up since then would be when we went into blood studies, DNA. We know from the family that its 69% European. We know that we're 29% from the Mende tribe which is Sierra Leone in Africa and the other 2 or 3 % is Cherokee Indian and that's not in the book. But that's a continual thing we've been doing for 20 or 30 years is trying to get our history as to whatever. But we've traced it back to the 17th century and this is where the different marriages of the different nationalities of Europe until the Tors and the Clays when they came here to this country and they combined the name is where we got Claytor. And they settled around the Bedford area. And then they branched out from there and my father's father would be, his father would be Harvey Claytor owned a farm over here in Calloway. That's the slave farm I'm talking about. That's where we all came from. And grandmother was a Gurrant (??). They didn't know it at the time but he was – When I did this history on the church, Presbyterian, he belonged to that Presbyterian church over there. So its been _____. Its been quite interesting. I've led a full, interesting life. Still trying to make it. Doing the best I can with my sore hips. (laughing) And bad whatever. CL: Thank you Dr. Claytor. We do have a copy of the Kaleidoscope at the Gainsboro Branch Library and it can be checked out and we thank you all for donating that. I think you donated one and I think we bought one but thank you for that. And we do have that copy. I really appreciate your time. WC: There's a whole lot more in there. I can't tell ya. Its hard to fathom. Its different things. Its children as they came along, you know and whatever. You work it out. But that book is in the library in Washington. Its been listed through the library system as one of the best genealogy books in the country so that makes us feel pretty good. CL: Thank you. 12 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2646/Claytor_Walter_16_December_2006.jpg da366a33b6fd718a6d5c61701de60303 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dr. Walter Claytor Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dr. Walter Claytor Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 16 December 2006 Location: Harrison Museum of African American Culture Total Duration: 59:49 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 16 December 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dr. Walter Claytor; Carla Lewis; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ClaytorWalter https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/BurwellBeatrice_[compressed].mp3 1b689f7c58ab5f3b3769caf6b187b8ac https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/BurwellBeatrice.pdf 54a506dfd5e37859c691a726e40a2b30 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Beatrice Burwell Interviewer: Alicia Sell Transcriber: Andrew Sterling AS: Today is November 8, 2006. I am interviewing Beatrice Woodson Beale Burwell at her apartment in Elm Park Estates in Roanoke, Virginia. I am going to start by asking you some background questions. When and where were you born? BB: In Roanoke, Virginia. AS: And if you could just say the year also for the recording. Your birth date. BB: Beg pardon? AS: Can you say your birth date? BB: My birth date is November 1, 1910. AS: Can you tell me about your parents, brothers and sisters? BB: My mother was named Emma Patterson Woodson. My daddy was named William Thomas Woodson. AS: And did you have brothers and sisters? BB: I had 5 sisters and 3 brothers. AS: OK. Where did you fall in the BB: I'm the baby of the family. AS: Are you? OK. BB: Only one living. AS: Did your mother or father have brothers or sisters that lived here in Roanoke also? BB: My mother had a brother that lived in Roanoke. Do you want his name? AS: Mm mm. BB: His name was Ben Patterson. AS: Would you visit with his family at all when he lived here in Roanoke? BB: Yes. When I lived in Roanoke, I had a very, very large family. And we'd visit. It was a closely knitted family and I visited – all of us visited with our parents all the time. My father had a sister that lived here. So, we were always visiting. AS: Was there a particular holiday or a day of the week that you would visit and all get together? BB: On all holidays, we got together and anytime anything happened to anybody in the family, all of us were there. AS: Can you describe your home life for us? BB: Well, I was blessed to have been raised in a Christian home. My father was really a man with a mission and his mission was that he's going to see to it that his children had advantages that he didn't have. He was wrapped up in politics and every time anybody was running for any office in Roanoke, he would have those people to come over and he organized the blocks. He would have 'em to come over and talk to the people in the community. He was really a man with a mission. AS: What did your father do for a living? BB: He worked – Before I was born, and until he retired, he worked for the Norfolk & Western Railroad. AS: Did your mother work? BB: No. She worked. She worked very hard but she was a stay at home mother. AS: Do you remember things about your house. For instance, do you remember listening to the radio or when you got your first telephone? BB: I remember when we got our first radio. I remember when we got our first television. And I remember when we got our first car. It was a T-Model Ford. And we had to get out in front of it and crank it up and jump out of the way so that if it jumped, the car would kinda jump, and whoever was 1 �standing in front would kinda jump too. And that was really a sensation when we got that T-Model Ford. AS: Do you remember generally what year that was? BB: Beg pardon? AS: Do you remember right around the year that you got that car? BB: I was very young. I don't – I guess I had just started school. I don't remember what year. AS: What kind of activities did you participate in when you were younger? 0.04.51.8 BB: You name it and I participated in it. I was very, very active in elementary school. And its hard and you really can't separate – when I went to school, the family and the church and the community. We really did work as one. I respected my neighbors just like I did my mother and father because I knew what would happen if I didn't. And that's the one thing that I think about so often how it was a community. 'Cause as you know where I'm coming from, everything was segregated then. So, the colored people were very close together. And I could give you one example if you would like to hear it. AS: Please. BB: I remember very distinctly and its one of the things that has stayed with me all of my life and has helped to mold my life. Before I started school, my mother took all of us to Norfolk, Virginia, when the soldiers had to go to World War I. I was very, very young. Everybody was crying. The whole group went down from Roanoke. Everybody standing there crying. And I was crying too 'cause I didn't realize the impact of what was going on. Anytime my mother would cry and everybody else was crying, I cried. I cried my heart out. But my brother – My mother had been married before and then he was old enough to go to World War I. I can see right now this huge ship and nothing on it but soldiers. And as far as they went out in the ocean, everybody standing there crying and waving. And I can see right now that ship and I can see my mother crying. And that has had an impact on me all my life because I felt the love. I felt the togetherness and when I came back, the people in my church especially, First Baptist Church, started knitting socks and gloves and they made all these things and they sent 'em to – they'd take 'em downtown somewhere, I don't know where, the Red Cross I guess. They would leave them. And the people would make bonnets and they made aprons that came all the way, you know, a full apron. And they sold that to make the yarn to buy to do this knitting with. It was such love, such bonding together and I had that feeling all my life of people being bonded together and loving and doing and caring. AS: That's wonderful. Did you have family stories that were passed down in your family from one generation. For instance, did your family have memories about the Civil War or slavery or did you have family recipes that you passed down? BB: I had a dollar gold piece and it was beautiful. It has the work all around it. And that was given to my father. My grandfather was a slave and that was given to my daddy and that was given to me and I have it now. And I cherish that so much so that I – One time they had an exhibit in Washington in gold and somebody there – I was wearing it. And somebody asked me would I let them put it on exhibit. And I said, “Could you guarantee that nothing will happen to it”. And they said they could guarantee it 99 and 9/10 percent because when they put things in these cases, if anybody tried to raise it, it would make an alarm. But I didn't give it because its just so precious and then I stopped wearing it because everybody that see me would want to buy it so I stopped wearing it. But it is in a safe place now. I don't even keep it out, you know. AS: What chores did you have to do around the house or in your neighborhood? 0.09.36.7 BB: Well, all of us had something. We worked together. We would do what work we had to do and our joy was to do our work. We worked together and then we'd relax together. We would get up and 2 �do whatever we had to do. Mainly, my job was to – Well, I'll back up. My daddy was a strict person on things. A girl is made of sugar and spice and everything nice and he saw me one time trying to cut some wood and he had a fit. He said, “You don't cut wood. You're a girl. Go in there and help your mother make a pie or read a book or try to write a poem.”. I never cut grass in my life. That's the effects of my daddy. He strictly believed in a girl was dainty. A girl didn't do this. A girl didn't do the other. A girl – and I brought that up in my children. A girl doesn't do this. If I ever see you dancing on the floor and the man has a hat, you gonna be embarrassed unless you tell him to take it off. If you don't tell him to take it off, I'm gonna walk up there and take it off. So you don't want to be embarrassed. So, don't you dare sit with anybody with a hat on. I was brought up that way. You know what I mean? We had values. If you would read sometime when you have time what I wrote about. In school, the teachers were dedicated. All the teachers I had. And as I gave an example, we were taught to love. I had an old desk sent from the white school. We had the old books. But the teacher would say, “You're smart.”. And that's all I ever heard. And you know, they really had me believing I was smart. And because I believed it, they put that in us. They taught patriotism. You could be singing a song, the Negro National Anthem. Its a hymn now. But it was the Negro National Anthem. We'd stand up. And if we weren't standing straight and singing, she would stop the singing and say, “Aren't you proud?”. And we'd say, “Yes, ma'am.”. And she'd say, “Well, sing like it. Stand tall. You're tall. You're somebody.”. They put that in us so I wasn't afraid to face the world because it was put in to my family. They put it in me. “You're a Woodson. You're proud. You're smart.”. And I really did believe I was smart. That's why I tried to motivate my children when I taught. I can do anything and I said on my tombstone, they can put, “She wasn't afraid to try.”. And my daddy had prayer. He was a man of prayer. When I was real little, I remember getting down on my knees and all of us had to get down and he would pray. And I would smell the rolls cooking and all that good stuff and we would be down there maybe hitting each other under the table but when we got old enough, then we prayed. We had to do that. We never left going on a vacation. I never left going to college. Anywhere. Anything that happened, he would have all of us in. And when my mother died - my mother was living with me at the time she died. And we were just carrying on whooping and hollering and carrying on and my daddy walked in. He said, “Y'all stop that hollering. We're gonna get down on our knees and pray.”. And that reinforced my faith. I say that anybody that can pray in a time like this. And he prayed the most beautiful prayer I ever heard. And he thanked God that he had answered momma's prayer 'cause her prayer was that she would not die until all her children were grown and able to take care of themselves. And he thanked God for answering momma's prayer and for the beautiful life that she lived. And ever since then, anybody that would die, we'd get down the family and we'd have that prayer. But when you can pray when things go like that. I said, “I wonder if he's in shock. He's gonna thank God that momma's dead.”. But when he prayed, he was saying the weight of the house off of us. And she was, as you can tell, a beautiful woman. And he thanked her for her beautiful life that she lived. And they are the things that molded me. AS: Wonderful. BB: Mm mm. AS: Do you have – What's your favorite childhood memory? 0.14.31.3 BB: One Christmas, we were peeping at one of 'em and saw my mother with this beautiful colored doll. The largest one we ever got. And she looked up and she saw us but she didn't say anything. So then, the next morning, we were acting. And she told us. That really did take something out of the Christmas 'cause we believed in Santa Claus 'til then. But see we got – You know how kids talk and they say that its your momma doing this and that and we would – My mother – I always lived on Gilmer Avenue and my mother and my daddy took and put things under the tree and we peeped over the banister and I was so excited. I think when I saw that doll, my sister – My sister and I were very 3 �close together. I had other sisters too but it was one and I guess I should've named them because we did work – but they were grown just about. My mother married her first husband when she was 18 years old. That family – but we were still all connected but they were just about grown then. So, that's why I didn't name them as sisters. I never will forget that. AS: Do you remember how old you were? BB: I really wouldn't know the age. I was still believing in Santa Claus so I was very young. AS: That's wonderful. Did you and your sisters share the doll? BB: Yeah. 'Cause they bought just one doll. But we were so close and we shared the same bedroom so it was easy for us to share. AS: You said you always lived on Gilmer Avenue. What was your house number? Do you remember? BB: 309. AS: 309 Gilmer Avenue. BB: Mm mm. And I'll tell you another childhood thing that I remember. AS: Yes, please. BB: Our parents really protected us. I never remember ever going home when my mother wasn't there from school. And when I was coming up, every girl had to play the piano. My sister was really an accomplished musician. My brother could play a piano. My brother finished – I'm jumping from one thing to another 'cause you'll edit this anyway, won't you? My brother was at Meharry. He finished medicine. He's a pharmacist. His senior year, my sister had her last year at Virginia State College and my first year was at Wilburforce University. He had 3 of us in college in one year and he did it. But he saved all during the year and his motto was “Invest in land. Have some land. Invest in land.”. And that was one thing that was embedded in him. Have something for yourself. And he invested in land and all of us are still being benefited from the land that he invested. He owned land near Orange Avenue and he owned land almost from Roanoke down through Bedford. He bought land from Roanoke all the way almost to Christiansburg. And it just happened that that land really did pay off that be bought. They were in good spots. AS: And that was your brother, the pharmacist who owned it? BB: Yes. AS: And what was his name? BB: That was my brother that finished Meharry. His name was Samuel Woodson. AS: OK. 0.18.24.7 BB: So that was one thing. And another thing, somebody moved in the block. When I got married, I moved to 730 Gilmer. Its the corner house. And my daddy came up and he said, “Bea, I see you have some new neighbors. Did you go and welcome them to the block?” I said, “No.”. He said, “Well, that was wrong, you should go always and when people move into the block, go and welcome them.”. And I can tell you something else about my daddy. He paid the, I think it was the water bill, every single day on the same day for 30 years. He never missed paying that water bill. And when he didn't come down one day, the man downtown called to see if he was sick. And I heard Reverend James say so often, “If he had a bill to pay, he would say 'Well, I don't have any money now but if you wait 'til the 1st, New Years Day, I will have it because I know Diggum (??) Woodson will be here”. And my daddy always went to him. In fact, he got up early. It was the custom then that black – I told you I use any of those words – Black people, colored people, negro, whatever, all the men would come and another thing on New Year's Day, a lot of women didn't want a woman to come to the house. Did you ever live through that? That's still in me. I don't visit on New Year's Day. I go to a dinner, the family dinner because I didn't know what people – very sensitive about it. All the women in the world could come to me on New Year's Day 'cause I like people and I like to be with 'em. I'm not superstitious about anything. And then another thing that's so different now, we often laugh and say when anybody had a 4 �baby, you could see, walk down the street, and you'd see diapers, lines of white diapers, pure white. I mean the way they could keep 'em. Now these young people don't know what you're talking about if you said diaper. And another thing that I started to say. Alice and Margaret Roberts, all of us came up together and her mother would have us to come up there and she taught us crocheting, some would crochet and I would embroidery. Then, they'd come down to momma's house and we'd crochet and do things like that and we'd go to the Coleman's house and do things. In other words, our parents didn't turn us loose. We just didn't get out and its the saddest thing for me now to go into a classroom and see first-grade children, maybe 10 or 15 with a key around their neck. (Phone ringing) That's my telephone but I'll just let it ring. But the key around their neck – And after school, a lot of 'em be just – I mean 1st and 2nd grade and I say, “You're not supposed to be here. You're supposed to go home right after school. Why don't you go home?”. And they say, “Well, there's nobody there and I hate to be by myself.”. And the parents leave crackers or potato chips or something out on the table and they would go in to get a snack and be there by themselves. I never – In fact. Our parents just didn't let us get out and go. And another thing, if we were on program – This is something that stands out with me. If you were on a program at church or anywhere, they would – if you weren't going to say anything but “Good morning” or “Good afternoon”, “I hope you enjoyed the program”, they were there. On program, you were there. I used to chaperone children for parties and I'd say, “Who's gonna pick you up?”. And some of 'em would say, “My mother told me to find somebody coming my way.”. That's elementary school now. Find somebody coming my way. And my mother – I went to very few parties. My parents didn't let us go to parties. Comin' back to this girl stuff. The lady next door to me had a party next door and my mother went as one of the chaperones. Next door! I said, “Momma, what in the world you think I'm gonna be doin'”. But that just shows you you were protected and your church looked after you. And the people were concerned. You know? The doctors were dedicated. Mm mm. It was just something. AS: That's wonderful. Let's go back for just a second and if you could just tell me a little bit about your house on Gilmer that you grew up in. Was it brick or was it one-story or was it two stories? BB: It was a ranch-style house and the Delta sorority called it the Delta House because the rooms were very, very large and I had an extra lot and it was a corner house. So we could have our parties. We didn't have to worry about disturbing people. And we didn't know what it was to go home after a dance. Sometime back, all sororities and fraternities used to have a formal dance every spring. The Deltas would like to come – Sometimes when the Deltas had a regional meeting with the chapter from Bluefield, West Virginia, or Lynchburg. They'd always have it at my house because the rooms were so large and it could accommodate all those people. AS: And that was the house you grew up in? BB: No, that's when I married. I moved. AS: Oh, OK. Can you tell me about the house you grew up in? 0.24.31.5 BB: It was a large 2 story house and all of us had our own bedroom. But see my daddy was very fortunate because he had a good job at Norfolk & Western. He made a decent salary all the time we came up so we were really blessed. You know what I mean? I don't ever remember my daddy not being able to pay a bill when it was due. My daddy started us out with a little Christmas saving. It was maybe about 5 or 10 cents a week. You know, Christmas Savings? 'Cause it might be $25 you'd get for Christmas or $50. I'm sure it wasn't over $50. But my daddy would take that and put it in a savings account for us and he would give us whatever we had saved. It was a custom that every payday, you saved something. You see, you understand, his daddy was a slave. His daddy was freed 6 years before my daddy was born but at that time, it was same as slavery for those people. So, it just came up to have something for yourself. It was just embedded in us. We did, we tried to have something for ourselves. AS: Do you remember your grandfather's name? Who was the slave? 5 �BB: He was named Phillip. We looked up the family history and it went on back. My father had 8 or 9 brothers. So that's the way that went. AS: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? 0.26.25.8 BB: Gainsboro has changed completely. My daddy's first house is on Gainsboro. And that house was passed down to the family. I'm the last one living in the family. So, I got that house. When they started remodeling – Not remodeling, that renovation, they took that house and that was a very sad experience for me because he had it before I was born. And he rented it out for a long time. In fact, I rented it out when I had it. When the city took it – and it was right up from Gainsboro, about the third house up going up that hill. And they took that house and gave me $800. That's what they paid for my house. My sister had a 2 story house next door. That was passed down to her. 'Cause my uncle left that house to her, to my mother and my mother left it to her. She got $800. It was a beautiful 2 story house. It was beautiful. $800. You know, $800. Of course, I bought it but I got $800. And they said they didn't want the house. I said, “Well, I did.”. They said they just wanted the land. But they took it. But I didn't, I don't harbor hate, not any of that kind of stuff because I was brought up – And let me tell you something else. When I was in school, the ministers – the churches had revivals. Do you know whenever they had revivals, the pastor could bring the evangelist to the school. And at Gainsboro, we didn't have any where – We had to sit out in the yard. And the evangelists would come in, we had service in the yard. I remember Reverend James. He was the pastor of First Baptist for 38 years. I was baptized with him. He married me. He baptized me. He baptized my husband. He did all those kind of things. I mean, he was the man up. He was one of the outstanding men of the day. Anyway, he would bring evangelists up and they would have revivals service on the yard. And all the children in our class, they would tell 'em, “I don't want you to say you want to join First Baptist Church. We're not for that. We want you to love Jesus Christ.”. And the man would preach. You would take the names of all they'd ask anybody that loved Jesus, they would go home and talk to their parents and tell the parents that they wanted to join a church, any church. And he advised them to go to church that their parents went to. And we would take down those names and went up to say they want to join the church. And the next day, we would check on them to see if they went. And we had devotions everyday. Everyday started with prayer. All that has had an effect on who I try to be today. 0.29.54.2 AS: That's wonderful. So you started talking about school a little bit. Tell me where you went to school. What elementary school did you go to? BB: I went to Harrison School. That's where I started. I went to Booker T. and in that book, if you're going to read it, that paper I wrote, that tells you what I participated in when I was in school. I remember going to Virginia State College when my sister was there going to school. I won the contest, the Oratorical contest. 'Cause see, I tell you parents had me believing I could anything. I won that contest and they sent me to Virginia State and my sister was so proud. The church was so proud. The community was so proud. But now, I can win something and I've seen parents come in school in May, something about the child, and I said, “Who's the teacher?”, and some of 'em didn't even know the name of the teacher. That would be in May now. The child has been in that class since September. That's another whole story. AS: What high school did you go to? BB: Addison. As I said, my class was the first class. I went there. I went to Booker T. Washington. The school they still use for headquarters now. It was up on the hill. My daddy had all this land all back there and everywhere. AS: You said you went to college? BB: I went to Wilburforce University. That's in Wilburforce, Ohio. AS: OK. And you got a degree in Education? 6 �BB: Yes. In Education. AS: Did you get a Master's Degree or just your Bachelor's Degree? BB: I went to school. I'd always got to summer school and so many children were so far behind – I took every course in reading. I had enough hours for a Master's but I got a – I was called a Reading Specialist. I took every course in Reading. And I'd go in that room and I'd say, “You're going to read.”. Alice Turner – I'm jumping from one thing to the other – Alice Turner was my principal at Harrison School. Mr. Sydney was my principal too. Lucy Addison was my principal when I was in elementary school. Lucy Addison was my principal. I was scared to death of her. My husband finished Lucy Addison and he said she tried to whip those big boys. They'd hold their hand way up here. She's short and they'd hold their hand where the thing would slide off. (laughing) They tell tales about her. But she did have the respect. We were scared to death of her. Very small in stature but it was her personality and that stern look and everything. AS: So she was your principal? BB: She was my first principal. AS: Wow. And your husband, can you say his name? BB: Huh? AS: What was your husband's name? BB: My first - He was the one that I married and went to Washington because he was an assistant principal in Washington. He was a Roanoker too. AS: What was his name? BB: Lawrence. That's the one I got to be a Burwell with. But people in Roanoke call me Beale. Nobody calls me Burwell in Roanoke. 'Cause see when I married, I went to Washington and I got on the teach staff. In fact, the man hired me before I moved there. Being in a sorority and him being the principal and he was the principal during the first year they integrated in Washington so you know what he went through. It was exciting. I enjoyed it. And then the other high schools would send us tickets to go to their reunions, school reunions where he taught so I was going somewhere all the time 'cause he taught Chemistry and Math in the high school for a long time, Armstrong High School. Then they made him Assistant Principal. So I had a full beautiful life. AS: What did you teach? BB: I taught 6th grade. Elementary school. I was always in the elementary school. I taught 6th grade at Harrison School. Oh, and I got the Teacher of the Year and all that kind of stuff. But I have plaques that would fill these walls. The plaque that means the most to me - I get letters from my students. And they will come and they will tell me and these are the plaques in my heart. Some will come and say, “You showed me the right way.” or “You helped me to do this.”. Now, they are the plaques that I cherish and they're the ones that are in my heart. And I had so many inexperienced – I taught a boy in the 6th grade. I was looking to see what time that was. AS: Its 11:30. BB: This boy, you talking about a handsome fella. He was so handsome. He always had his head down like this. He was on welfare which is alright. He came to me one day and he said, “Would you let me go home?”. I said, “Ask the principal.”. He said, “She won't let me go home.”. And I said, “Are you sick or something?”. He said, “No.”. I said, “Why you wanna go home?”. He said, “Because my mother got her check today and if I don't get home today, she won't have money to buy me shoes tomorrow.”. He had on a pair of shoes and the children teased him. And I'd walk down the aisle, he'd have his head down. I'd take my hand and raise it up. I said, “If I was a good-looking person like you, I'd be walking in the air.”. That's the way I'd talk to him. Do you know that boy got to be up the highest rank in the Army? Mm mm. And he'd tell me all the time, say, “I never did understand something or another but you gave me confidence in myself.”. Now that's a plaque in my heart. He went right on up there. You don't tell a child usually that they're good-looking. At least I 7 �never told a fella. I'd say, “You're just handsome.”. He had such an inferiority complex. I worked on his inferior complex as much as I did trying to teach him an adjective from an adverb. (both laughing) 'Cause you're teaching a person. You know what I mean? AS: Mm mm. BB: He just ____ 'em out. But see he's another one. He got himself a job and was able to buy things for himself – I guess he thought he was ugly since he had his head down all the time. And I'd go in an assembly and a teacher would come in with children and when I see somebody with their head down and I'd go to the social worker. We had a good counselor in Washington. I said, “What's that girl's name? Something's wrong. She's always coming in with her head down.”. What happened, they were coming in and all of the children had on uniforms. They wore uniforms where I taught, dark blue skirts, dark blue jumper and a gold blouse. And I said, “You take this money and buy her 2 outfits, one skirt and a top to go with it and a jumper but don't tell anybody you know where it came from.”. And I bought a lot of things. I believe in tithing. I'd take money out of my tithe and – One thing I liked about Sears and Roebuck, they would sell their shoes. The counselor would take 4 or 5 children down and buy shoes for 'em. Sears and Roebuck would sell them good, stout shoes for what they say they paid for 'em themselves. And I said, “Well, I'm gonna put money in the shoe bank.”. I went to one lady. I said, “You know I notice that whenever its snowing or raining or real, real bad weather, your kids are out of school, 2 girls. If you tell me its none of my business, I will not be hurt. Because in a way its not my business and in another way it is my business. I would like to buy them boots.”. And I gave her money to buy boots or galoshes or whatever you call 'em for her 2 girls. And so I was thinking that I hadn't priced any boots for children or anything, I just gave her what I paid for mine for her to buy – I gave her twice that much. She bought both of 'em whatcha call 'em and gave me money back. I said, “How in the world could you get 'em that cheap?”. But anyway, I gave her the money back. I said, “You buy them 2 pairs of shoes 'cause its not raining and snowing all the time.”. And I gave it back to her. And I said, “Don't you ever tell the girls that I gave it to you 'cause if I ask the girls to go to the store for me or something, they would feel that they would have to do it.”. And she never told 'em where it came from. I like to do things and I don't like to say anything about it. I don't like for anything to be said. AS: We're almost done. I have just a few questions about Gainsboro specifically, about the community. What businesses or shops did your family go to? Do you remember? BB: What businesses? AS: Where would you go shopping or were there places you would go in Gainsboro to do that? 0.39.45.4 BB: I forgot to tell you about my mother's brother was named Bell. He had a store at the corner of Gainsboro. I got that on the notes I have. He made enough in that store – it was at the corner of Gainsboro and Harrison or Rutheford. It was one of those corners. And he made enough selling at that store to support his family. He bought a house and supported his family. And we bought a lot of things from, most of the things from him. In the meantime, in Roanoke, they couldn't raise hogs and all that kind of stuff where we lived but they could way over where the back of where they had Booker T. school, they could raise it way back over there. And so my daddy always had somebody to raise 'em for him. And then some of the places that sold food and things, they would – what was left, my daddy would go by and pick it up and take it over there to the man that raised all these hogs for him. Then, on the corner of where I was raised up as a child, its called Dillard's. They had a store right on the corner across the street. And then, on the next block at the corner, it was a meat shop. Then we bought – We had – The market was in full bloom then and you could take 1 or 2 dollars and I'd go down on the market and I'd bring back all the cabbage and the beans and everything I could hold. You could take 1 or 2 dollars and do it. It was stores in the community and we would always, as I told you, work together in the mornings, clean the house and whatever. Then, we would change clothes and go to the 8 �front porch. That was the pride of our life, going to the front porch. But, at that time, the people on the market that sold peaches for instance, if they didn't sell 'em all, they'd come in the streets hollering, you know, what they had to sell. And my mother, oh, she was really, I don't see how she did all she did. She would buy them. She'd say, “How many bushels of peaches do you have?” He said, “Four bushels. I'll let you have 'em for 50 cents a bushel.”. Momma would buy all four of 'em. Then she'd say, “Y'all take your clothes off.”, 'cause we had work clothes and we'd have to go in and start peeling peaches or something. And a lot of the time, we'd go out on the porch. We'd say, “Lord, please don't let anybody come by selling.”. But that's the way she maneuvered. And that's the way we had everything. She knew how to manage. You know? AS: Would everyone in the neighborhood go out and hang out on their porches in the evening? BB: In the evening, yeah. Sometimes, when it would be so very hot – my parents had a big, 2 story house. It was about 8 or 10 rooms in that house. But anyway, sometimes, it would be so hot upstairs that my mother would say, “You can stay up later tonight.”. And we'd go out. All of us had a lot of land with our houses. And we'd go out and put the yard chairs between the two houses and the neighbors would come and we'd be out there and it was so nice. I wasn't afraid. I was never afraid. There was never anything to be afraid of 'cause we looked after each other. I remember when my first husband died. Alice Turner, my principal, would send somebody from the school and she would take the class – This teacher would come down for 2 hours and the principal would take the class. Then another principal or another teacher would come down. And somebody would take the class. Or maybe they would double a class. I was never by myself. And you know a long time ago when I came up, you knew when anybody died. It just spread in the whole neighborhood. We were bonded together because we were all on this side of the railroad tracks. We didn't go on the other side except for business or something like that. They always hung a wreath outside the door. Anybody'd die, you'd pass by and you'd see a wreath. They brought the people home when they died the night before the funeral and somebody would stay up all night long with whoever in the family stayed up all night long. And they never – somebody was always sitting right there in that room and people would bring coffee in and doughnuts and that's the way we lived then. AS: Do you remember the Gainsboro Library when that opened? 0.44.29.2 BB: Yes. And I remember Virginia Lee. But coming back to Gainsboro School, I never saw a potbelly stove when I was going to school. They didn't have them. We had the regular furnace. My first year teaching in Roanoke was in Gainsboro and I looked in there and I said, “What in the world is this?”. But we had a janitor and he would come in every so many hours and put coal – It was never cold in that school. They really kept those rooms – 'cause coal, I think, gives off more heat than anything you can heat with anyway. Nobody wants coal now 'cause its too dirty and everything. But that was my first experience in looking at a pot-belly stove. Queen Williams was the principal. That's that old school with the ______. I thought that y'all would like to see. And I enjoyed whatcha call 'em but the school, as I say, you couldn't separate it from the church and you couldn't separate the church from the community. Now to give you an example, the Bible Band Missionary Server. I guess I came up almost before I was born 'cause my mother was one of the first members of the Bible Band of First Baptist Church. And whenever anybody was sick, they had hours they'd go at night. And when my mother would go at night, she would take us, the girls, with her. I'd be sittin' up in a chair asleep. But my mother, that's the last woman I went to see with my mother because Ella Butcher. Do you know the Butcher's? She died and when she died, I was there the night before she died, sitting up I the chair up there sleeping. And my mother, when I went to sleep, I remember momma being at her bedside doing something for her. Now that's – We couldn't go to the hospital so the church was the hospital. The members would stay up all night long with you. We live in a different society now. Everything is different. I tell ya, the world's been turned upside down. Mm mm. 9 �AS: Do you remember strong community leaders in Gainsboro that you remember? BB: I remember undertaker Hughes. He was about 100 years old. If he wasn't a hundred, he's mighty close to it because I remember everybody talking about, “Well, you know he's almost 100.”. I don't remember whether he reached 100 or not but I know he must've been mighty close to it. He had an undertaker shop on Gainsboro. Gainsboro was a very popular street. And Henry Street was a very popular street. I remember Dr. Brooks that was a pharmacist on Henry Street. I remember Dr. Robinson that was a pharmacist on Gainsboro. My daddy was young at heart and I'd take him over to Henry Street and he would go in that drug store on Henry Street, right in the main block and talk to Dr. Behr (??). I'd take him there all the time. 'Cause my daddy, as I said, he was in politics 'til the day he died. One time I went – And I'm rambling because I'm just telling you as I think about it. I went down to my daddy's house. He lived at 309. That's where I lived until I got married. I moved to 730. My daddy said, “Bea, did you get a card from Poff today? Poff was a something or other in Washington. And he said, “What did you do with it?”. Poff would write a card or send a letter or card or something to everybody. He said, “I'm going to mail anybody that I know of.”. He said, “What did you do with it?”. I said, “I put it in the trash.”. He said, “You should not have done that. I want you to see this letter that I got from Poff.”. And Poff told my daddy that he was the most dedicated person that he had ever met and if all his constituents were as dedicated as he was, my daddy never, never wrote or got any mail that he didn't answer. I put mine in the trash. (chuckle) He said, “Don't do that. It means something to show that you are patriotic and that you love your country.”. And I have voted every year. My daddy worked to help abolish Poll Tax. I tell you this, I went to Wilburforce ______. I got a pass. My daddy could get a pass because he worked at Norfolk & Western. I was on the train and the conductor came by and he looked at that pass. He said, “You're not supposed to be on this train.”. I said, “Why?”. He said, “Its a number.”. Well you realize at that time of segregation, the conductor would stand on the outside of the coach and if you were colored he would tell you to go to the right. That was the one next to the engine where it was the noisiest and the dirtiest. And they'd send you there. Anyway, I was on the train. The conductor said, “You're not supposed to be on this.”. I said, “Why?”. He said, “This number's not good on train. I'll make out the number.”. I said, “7”. Cause trains had numbers. I said, “Well, I've been riding it all the time.”. He said, “Listen, I'm not a racist.”. That's what the conductor said. And he said, “I would rather see you get off as we're going through West Virginia.”. Berkley, West Virginia, or somewhere or another. Wintertime, Christmas, I was coming home for Christmas. “I'd rather see you get off because when the next man that comes on, the conductor, he'll put you off anywhere 'cause you're not supposed to be on here.”. There were about 15 of us from Wilburforce. At one time we had about 15 here that – We had a Wilburforce club. Judge – Did you know Dillard (??)? He got to be a judge. He went to Wilburforce and Arthur Spencer and all of them. Anyway, we had about 15. They lived in Newport News and Portsmouth. They said, “Well if she gets off, we're getting off.”. All 15 got off that train. He knew the thing was closed, the station. He said, “And I'm gonna call and tell 'em that I'm stopping the train there 'cause there's some people to get on.”. And all of us got off, in the wintertime, snowing, cold, 'cause you know it's cold in Ohio. And we got off that train about 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. All of us 15 standing outside the thing and had to stand there. My daddy called – I guess he went to everybody. Maybe he wrote the President of the United States I imagine. He said, “I will die fighting that you'll never be put off again.”. That law was changed. That law was changed. Showing what politics did. You got to go through the system. The only way you get anything changed is by voting. From that time on, that word – They didn't put any discrimination – It wasn't a race discrimination numbers anybody that couldn't ride certain trains. From that day, my daddy worked. He wrote to his congressman. He went to the City Manager. He went all the way up and that law was changed. That shows you what persistence will do. So those things are kinda in me 'cause I'm a fighter. I worked in the – I got pictures in there of Clinton. They have sent me personal autographs. Hillary Clinton wrote me a letter. 10 �I wish I – I tried to find that letter. I got some things up there now I stuck in that book 'cause I said – and then I couldn't reach the book. I was trying to find that letter. When she wrote this book about “It Takes a Village” and asked me if would I write about my school days for her to put in that book. I didn't do it but I wasn't in town then. I was away having myself a ball. (laughing) And when I got back, the deadline had passed, way passed. Because, see, I went to Delta convention and I was at the convention for a week. I went from the convention to a cruise. I was away another week. Then, I stopped by my godchild's, my campus daughter for another week. I got back and it was too late but the deadline had passed. But I regret that I didn't – 'cause I could've answered and said I was out of town and the deadline had passed when I got the letter. But to tell you the truth, when I got back, I said, “Oh, they're writing for some money or something.”. I don't think I even read it then until another week. (laughing) 0.54.13.5 AS: Well, the time's almost done but is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to share with us? BB: I just wish that my parents were living and see. Oh, let me tell you about my grandson. He is a model. The only people that could go in Hot Springs Hotel were the ones working there. They called him about a month ago. He's out there modeling. That's his picture. He finished – right there – He finished VPI. He finished VPI. He got a good job in Richmond. He wouldn't give up his job and he was modeling. I wish you had time to see these pictures. He was modeling – He wasn't thinking about modeling and he was in a store looking at something and the man came by. When he went to Richmond, he got a little apartment. Do you know, he's been there 5 or 6 years and he has been promoted right on up, right on up, right on up. Now, he has bought a house in Richmond. To show you how the world has turned upside down. When my girls went to school, they went to Patrick Henry. Do you know that for a time, the police had to escort the bus to Patrick Henry 'cause not only were the children fighting everyday, parents were out with things to fight. And they were escorted everyday. Well, see, that's the difference in my school. I never had the word fear. I never had – I don't think I ever heard the word “dope”. I want to learn. You know what I want to do now? And I'm gonna write I might – I regret I didn't write to Hillary because I might have to write to her. I want to find out now – I'm curious – I wanted to know. I was told by mouth. I'm gonna check it that we got the word negro because when after slavery, that congress or somebody – This is by word of mouth, handed down, said, “What are we gonna do with those people. They don't even have a name. What are we going to call them?”. And I was told by mouth coming down – mouth to mouth – that congress passed the law that we would be named or called Negros. I'm gonna find out who named us. Why did you name us that? Who named us African-American? I think that might've been by popular demand. But I want to go back. That's my project now. I want to find out how did we get that name. Now if I can't find – You could do that. Do you know why? Did congress pass that law? (Carla Lewis speaking) CL: I will find out and tell you. BB: Yeah. Word of mouth, that's what I was told but see, I'm curious. CL: I will look it up. 0.57.23.9 BB: I want to live. I want to find out everything. My son said, “Momma you ought to see what's on the board now”. He worked for the – My son attended Hampton and he worked in the telephone company here. He's wrapped up in all this stuff. He's really wrapped up in everything and he's still – anytime they have a course offered at Virginia Western and anything about computers and he's talking about things and when I was living in Washington, I'll never forget. He said, “Momma come on out here” something or another. He wanted to get something about the internet or computer or something. And so I rode with him to Maryland. I went out there with him and he said, “I asked the man”. They 11 �were talking, he was talking to the clerk and I didn't know what they were talking about. They had a language all their own. So I said, “Well, Do you have a TV?”. He said, “No, we don't carry TVs. That's low-tech.”. I said to myself, “That's low-tech and I don't understand.” I don't understand lowtech.” But there was something up there. I didn't even know what they were talking about with that language. Just like crocheting. You know crocheting has a language of its own. Anyway, that's what they – He's wrapped up in it. Now when he – He used to work with Boy Scouts and he's wrapped up in Spanish. He was in high school. He would take the Scouts. And he's gotten every permit, I guess you call 'em permit, for to talk on HAM or something or something whatever it is. He can talk to everybody overseas. And he'd bring a lot of Scouts that were interested in Spanish and he would call Spain and those kids would talk to people in Spanish. He did all that for a while. Life is just interesting. I just want to live to be 100. (laughing) I want to see all my children and their children. I have grandchildren. All my grandchildren call me Ma Bea because I told my son, “Now look here. One thing I regret.” I was trying to be young. So I put my age back. And when I went to Washington, my second year, they had the principal send in this thing that recommended me for the Outstanding Elementary Teacher of America. My name is in that book, twice. When I got the book, I looked in there and it had in there that I finished Addison High School in 1929. I got my magic marker 'cause see I put my age back and marked out that '29. I got this and I got that or I got this or I got that and they put my name on the trophy for the Urban League for being outstanding something – senior citizen or something I got it for. And my name is on the trophy. They keep it in the national headquarters or something. But all that doesn't matter. But anyway, I took the black marker and scratched out every date. I'm so sorry I did that 'cause you know - (laughing) Now I can stand at the hill hollering, “I'm 96.”. One time, I put it back. And then I got scared one time. They said, “If you put your name back on the driving permit, they can take your driving permit.”. So I put it right on the driving permit. They can take it and not give you one. They can stop you from getting one they tell me. 'Cause you say everything is true. So I put – I was old when my son was born. That was about 8 years before he was born. And the doctor told me, “You cannot carry a child.”. I was so little, you know, petite. He was a premature baby. He was born at 7 months. That shows you how God is. That child slept for those other 2 months. You wouldn't know a baby was in that house. He just slept. And the day he was supposed to be born, he started crying as a newborn baby. You ought to see that book. I said, “Lord, if I had that to do over, I wouldn't do it.”. But you have more sense. But you don't go this way but once so I tell everybody, “You're on this journey one time so just make it a good one.”. And that's what I'm trying to do now. I pray everyday that I would put a smile on somebody's face before I go to sleep at night. That's my prayer. CL: Miss Beale-Burwell, this is Carla Lewis at the Gainsboro Branch Library. And we are here in your home and I wanted to thank Miss Virginia Wolfe for telling me about you and thank you so very much for interviewing for us. BB: I'm glad y'all came up. CL: Oh, we are just happy to do it. BB: I can look back. I was crying Miss Ellie. You remember Cubbie Gill? (??) He crowned me – I was crowned Miss Addison and he gave me this long bunch of red roses out on the football field. I thought I was hot stuff. At the intermission of the football game, he escorted me to the middle of the field and somebody put this robe, this thing on me and he presented me with those roses. And I was the first Miss Addison. Isn't that something? CL: That is something. We are just so happy that you were able to do this with us. BB: I'm wondering what's in that book that I stuck. It was something. (recording ends) 12 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/Burwell_Beatrice_2_8_November_2006.JPG 874922cb7d4771b17f020252f742d092 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/burwell_beatrice.pdf e78864ba2ec474eff2322570f0356993 PDF Text Text ��2 breathing-knowledge, like air. So, when I recall my ~~SchC)ol days", I experience. I have now and always have had an incredible zest for learning. I was blessedto have grown up in a religious family that understood the anygoal. One of the earliest lessons my parents taught us was to look for day is a brand new school day for me. When I was growing up, the Woodson children understood from the beginning that failure was never an option and excellencewas always expected. We took those principles into the classroomsand out into the world eachand every day. When I was coming along, there was not much division between our community, church, and school. In school, our days began and ended with prayers. In church, there was more learning about God's greatnessand his love for us. In the community we sharedwhat we'd learned, making each other's lives and our neighborhoodsrich, loving, and saferplaces to live. And if at any point a child decided to step out of line, or lost their way, the ���5 from eachother. We come from many states~ different countries, every branch of the armed services, even former prisoners of war. Every profession is a rich resource of knowledge and experience. In 2001 I was presentedthe key to the City of Roanoke by the Honorable Ralph Smith, Mayor of Roanoke, and in 2003 I was presentedthe Star of the City. This was indeed a great honor for me and one which I will cherish. So you see my "school days" are not yet over, even after 43 years of teaching. Maybe in another 94 years, I'll be able to sayI've completed my classes-we'll just have to wait and see. �REFLECTIONS I'Lest We Forget" When I was very young, I was COLORED; later I was a NEGRO; then I was BLACK and now I am an AFRO-AMERICAN. How Arrnzing!!! I did not have to do any research on my topic-Reflections-as I just want to share with you some of the conditions as they existed in the above four phases of my life --things that I saw with my eyes, heard with my ears and understood with my mind and heart. COLORED When I was COLORED, I lived in a southern city where everything was completely segregated. The COLORED people lived on one side of the railroad tracks and the WHITE other side. We didn't question being segregated when I was COLORED --we people lived on the just accepted the status quo. Is there anybody here who remembers the wash boards, the tin tubs, when people roode their own laundry soap? clothes? Do you remember when we heated flat Do you remember when we as children irons on a stove in order to iron our not only belonged to our parents, but to the neighbors as well; when we were afraid to misbehave before our neighbors? When I was COLORED we did not have television, electric appliances, frozen foods and countless other things that we are so accustomed to now. When I was COLORED we never heard of insect repellents, so our parents burned a sm:xll rag in a shovel to drive COLORED people canned food all summer and early fall. away the insects. The Nothing was wasted: apple peelings were saved to m:xke jelly and even the rinds from the watermelons were saved to m:xke preserves. parents made all of our clothes, even to our hats and underwear. Our I was quite amused when I read in the paper that scientists had discovered the health value of the onion. I smiled and said to myself, liMy mother could have told you that a hundred years ago.11 Do you remember when the onion was used in the bed, under the bed or at your feet to take away the fever? The Church was the cornerstone of our lives. It would take a book to tell the impact that the Church had on our lives, so.I troy say that the Church was all and all to us --our spiritual life, our fellowship, our hospital and even our court system, for if we did anything that was too unacceptable we were put out of the church and nobody wanted that to happen. �-2- NEGRQ I have been COLORED and now I'm a NEGRO. Life as a NEGRO was almost the same as when I vas COLORED. Everything is still completely segregated and we still accepted the status quo. The lid textbooks, desks and other equipment and furniture were sent to the NEGRO schools. Even 'lith all of these adverse conditions, our parents and teachers taught us daily that our minds were lot old, that we were strong and smart and that we could be successful regardless of all and any :ircumstance. .- THIS WE BELIEVED!! Every day started with Bible verses and prayer, plus an inspirational "alk by our teacher ...emphasizing vision and values, pride and a positive, loving spirit. -ust one example to illustrate my point. Let me give Every day we would sing the Negro National Anthem anthem when I was a Negro, hymn today). The teacher would observe us very closely and whenever he/he woutd see a head not held high, the song would be stopped and the question would be asked, Aren't you proud to be a Negro? Then hold your head up high, put your chest out and sing like IOU are proud!" ~m Now I'm BLACK. It would take volumes to tell of the hardships, the suffering, the courage and letermi nati on that BLACK people endured during this period to end segregation. These were the ears that were so dramatic and traumatic that they are referred to by many people as, "When the ,arid turned upside down.11 The entire socia-economic and political order in America was changed. :LACK people rewrote the history book!!! I have noticed a great difference in our "slang language" and the standard language as well since ~eing BLACK. Example: My family visited me and as usual we all got dressed to go to my church, :rookland Union. When we were ready to leave, my grandson said, "Matro Bea, you look BAD.II I 'ntrediately looked at myself to see what was wrong. When my grandson saw that I was concerned, to put it light1y), he immediately said, "Matro Bea, you don't look bad, you look GOOD." Before I 'as BLACK, bad meant bad, good meant good, a pot was what you cooked in, aids meant helping omebody, a crack was a hole in the wall and cool meant temperature, hoes or jacket. not some name written on your �-3- AFRO-AMERICAN '" Today I am an AFRO-AMERICAN. I have seen so trony of our parents' dreams and hopes for their children come true. opportunity We, as AFRO-AMERICANS, to soar as high as we want to and in any direction struggle goes on as we look beyond ~ and grandparents' at least have the that we so desire. horizon and as we seek even greater However, the heights for our children, our families, our country andlthe'world. Cronge is as certain as taxes and death, but as my parents taught me, everything in life destined to change, but God's WORD. I thank God daily that He let me live to be COLORED. I thank God daily that He let me live to be A NEGRO. I thank God daily that He let me live to be BLACK. I thank God daily that He 1et me live to be AN AFRO- AMERICAN. And I thank each of you for listening!!! ON THE OCCASION OF FELLOWSHIP LUNCHEON BROOKLAND UNION SNACC Thursday, February 28,1991 10:00 AM -2:00 PM Post Script I 2003 AFRICAN AMERICAN When I wrote AFRICAN II Reflectionsll AMERICAN. What I wrote is my desire SO again, I can truly in II Reflectionsll and my prayer conti nue the journal I was an AFRO-AMERICAN. that Now t a few years later t I am an saYt II How Arrazing!!!11 is just a glimpse at the first chapter my children, and all the future grandchildren in The Journey of Life. generations It will I have started. ---Beatrice Woodson Beale Burwell � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/BB_1.0_Gainsboro_School_[1st_year_teaching].jpg 1b823266de4bb958db0d7e77857130bc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/BB_3.0_Pot_Belly_School_[Gainsboro_School]2.jpg 9b7fa2dcb5b301f5adecfbea3c2b2850 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2645/BB_2.0_Harrison_School_[50th_Anniversary]_May_1968.jpg 4e4939016759a558874ba58eb1b2b92d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Beatrice Burwell Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Beatrice Burwell Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 8 November 2006 Location: Elm Park Estates Total Duration: 1:03:34 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8 November 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Beatrice Burwell; Alicia Sell; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BurwellBeatrice https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJeanette_[compressed].mp3 10881243dd8a7de6f54b9c6b3ff53ca8 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJeanette.pdf 331bb4ed67cd106c1edabc3bc0a1c08d PDF Text Text Interviewee: Jeanette E. Willis Interviewer: Arlene Ollie Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is October 30th. We are at the Gainsboro Library. AO: How are you today? JW: I'm fine, and you? AO: OK. I want to ask you some questions about yourself and about your life. I'm going to start with basic background questions. When and where were you born? JW: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, on September 28, 1927. AO: Tell me about your parents, brothers and sisters and if you had any extended family living nearby. JW: I was raised by my aunt and uncle, Mr. and Mrs. Jessie A. Tripp. We lived at 210 Harrison Avenue, Northeast. And I had no brothers and sisters that I was brought up with. I have a half-sister that passed. We lived down there on Harrison Avenue and then we moved out on 4th Street, out there near where Magic City Ford is now. We lived there for a long time and then we moved to Northwest. AO: Did you have any extended family like grandparents, aunts, uncles? JW: No, they lived in Rocky Mount. AO: Describe your home life. For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening? Do you remember when you got a telephone, refrigerator, that kind of thing? JW: Yes, we used to listen to the radio a lot when we – Well, we always listened to the radio a lot because I can remember having a radio from the time I was very young. Then, when we moved from Northeast to Moorman Road, that's when we got a refrigerator, electric stove, electric refrigerator. We moved up there in 1936. AO: What kinds of activities did you participate in as a child? JW: Well, we used to play hide and seek, tag. I used to go to Sunday School at First Baptist. I used to go to the YWCA down here on 2nd Street when it was down there. That's where I started going. And that was right after they moved from over here on Wells Avenue. I used to come to the library when it was over there on – When it was across the street from where it is now, on the corner of Patton Avenue and Gainsboro. Just the usual activities that young people did at that time. We used to play with the Wallers (??) and all the other families that lived near us down on 4th Street. AO: Did you sit on the porch in the evening? JW: Yeah. (giggle) That was the main thing that we used to do in the afternoon after supper as we used to say. We'd sit on the porch. AO: What family stories were passed down from one generation to another? For instance, did your family have stories about memories during the Civil War or about slavery? Did they have any family recipes that's been passed down through the generations? JW: I wish I had known about those questions before I got here but yeah, my aunts used to tell a lot of stories about different things that happened in the country when they would go over there to visit. 0.05.07.5 AO: What about recipes? JW: Well, you know, my mother was a great cook and she gave me a book of her recipes for sweet potato pies and rolls and her turkey recipe and things like that. I really can't remember off-hand what the recipes consist of but I still have the book that she gave me. AO: That's wonderful. What is your fondest childhood memory? For example, favorite holiday event, favorite family vacation, a favorite gift that you received. JW: Well my favorite memories are of going over to Franklin County to see my grandparents and when my aunts and uncles and all, one uncle, were all there and my grandmother used to go out into the 1 �garden and pick green beans and then she would take a chicken and wring its head off and pluck the feathers and fry the chicken and make biscuits and things like that. That's really my fondest memories. AO: What chores did you have to do around the house and/or neighborhood? JW: Well, I would have to wash the dishes and help my mother keep the house clean. Just the usual chores in the house. AO: Describe your house for us. For example, was it brick? Brick encased? Single story or two? Did you have a garden? JW: You mean the first house we were in or -? AO: I guess the house that you would consider where you grew up. JW: The one we moved to when I was 9 and we lived there until my mother and father passed. That was up on Moorman Road, up on a hill and we didn't have a garden but my mother raised a lot of flowers. She had several flower beds and she liked working in the yard. She would cut the flowers after they bloomed and bring 'em in the house and so that was nice. We used to walk down to the market every Saturday and buy fresh groceries, fresh green beans and corn and tomatoes and a chicken that we had to bring back and she would wring its neck and pluck it and soak it in salt water overnight and then fix it after we would come home from church on Sunday. AO: Did you shop in the Gainsboro community any? JW: Yeah, well on the way to church, they had a store that was on the corner of Harrison Avenue and Gainsboro and at that shop we'd stop at to buy different little things and there were other businesses on Gainsboro between Harrison and Patton Avenue. AO: Do you remember the name of the store? JW: No. I remember the name of the store that was on Harrison Avenue and 5th Street and that was called – we called it Rich's Store because when I went to school at Harrison, the kids would go up there during recess and buy different candy and stuff like that. AO: How long have you lived in Gainsboro and what streets have you lived on? JW: Well, like I said, when we moved from 4th Street Northeast, we moved to Moorman Road, 841 Moorman Road and we lived there AO: (inaudible) 0.10.02.0 JW: Uh huh. Until I got married and then I moved to Loudon Avenue. AO: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? JW: There have been many changes because Rutheford Avenue came all the way down the hill instead of the cul-de-sac that they have now. There was Gainsboro School. There was the AME Church, Mount Zion AME Church and then over as you went across Gainsboro, there were stores. Joe Muntz's Store and this man that they called “Bad Eye” had a shoe shine parlor over there. As you went up the hill, Hill Street Church was up at the top of the hill. The Hancock's had a store over there on Gainsboro. When you got to Washington Park, they had the swimming pool and the dance hall over there and there were a lot of picnics in Washington Park. People came from everywhere on Sundays and holidays to have picnics in Washington Park. Of course, we walked from Moorman over to Addison School even on bad days, snow days, whatever days. We didn't have anything like they call “Snow Days” now, because everybody walked and either they got out there and walked or they stayed at home when it snowed. School was never closed so we did walk a great deal. Everywhere we went, we used to walk down from Moorman Road to First Baptist Church. AO: You've already answered probably number 13 which was talking about your school life. The part we didn't get was, “Were you ever allowed to stay home from school?” JW: No. (laughing) You'd have to be almost dead to stay at home from school. My parents thought that that was very important. AO: How much schooling did you complete? 2 �JW: Well, I finished Addison in 1945 and I did a little bit of study. I did not go away to college but I did some courses at Roanoke College at Virginia Western mostly in Early Childhood Education. AO: What kind of work did your family do? JW: My father worked for N&W for about 40 years and AO: Do you remember what he did? JW: The last job I remembered he worked at the foundry for many years. AO: What foundry? JW: The N&W Foundry where they have to build the engines. AO: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? JW: Well, I worked for TAP and the Head Start Program for 20 years and then when I retired from there, I worked at Roanoke City Schools as a bus-aide for 15 years. AO: So pretty much around children? JW: Mm mm. AO: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills and the effect that it had on the community? JW: Yes. The man that lived next door to us and his wife too, both of them worked at the silk mill and I think that the closing did have a kinda negative effect on people because they lost their means of livelihood. A lot of them went on to other jobs and some of them didn't. 0.15.00.3 AO: What jobs were available for African-Americans? JW: I think that the best jobs that they had were with the railroad and some of them worked as maids and there weren't too many real good jobs at that time. AO: What are your memories of the Gainsboro Library and Mrs. Virginia Y. Lee? JW: My mother used to go to prayer meeting on Wednesday nights and I would come down early and come to the library. That was across the street on the corner of Patton and Gainsboro and above that was the YMCA. I remember that Mrs. Lee would help me to pick out books. She was a quiet lady, very nice lady. And I remember on Halloween after the library moved over here where it is now, they used to have bobbing for apples and parties outside. That was real nice. We used to come to that. AO: Describe cultural events that happened in Gainsboro. For example, do you remember entertainers who came to the Dumas? Do you remember performances? How many people attended? What time of year was it or where they were held and if entertainers were involved, where did they stay? JW: There were a lot of dances that we attended at the American Legion building when that was down there and I remember AO: Where was that located? JW: It was on the corner of what was then Commonwealth. It was a street that ran right into the station, into the N&W station that's there now. I think the Roanoke Hotel uses it for a parking lot now. It was right on the corner of Commonwealth and Wells Avenue. I can remember Ray Charles and Lionel Hampton and a lot of the bands of the era that came there. Some of them stayed at the Dumas Hotel. I don't remember where the ones that did not stay at the Dumas stayed but I know that a lot of 'em – Cab Calloway I saw him down there. Just most of the bands that were touring at that time stayed or played down there. There were big crowds of people that came. The black people would be on the floor and the white people would be in the gallery looking on. They liked the bands. They liked to see the people that came so they would have to sit upstairs and we could be on the floor dancing. AO: That's interesting. I have never heard. That's kinda like a reverse American ______. JW: That's true. AO: And they were down near the stage and production and whites were in the balcony. I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about whites coming to the black dances and sitting in the balcony. JW: They did. AO: That's very interesting. 3 �JW: That's also like the Roanoke Theater. I don't remember going. I didn't ever go to the American Theater but I did go to the Roanoke Theater where you had to go all the way up into the balcony. In fact, it was up above the regular balcony that the black people would have to go if they went down there. AO: Where was the Roanoke Theater located? JW: It was right in the middle of the block between Jefferson Street and 1st Street. It was near Woolworth's. 0.20.16.7 AO: On Campbell? JW: On Campbell Avenue. We could not go into the front door. We would have to go around to the back on Kirk Avenue. The back entrance was on Kirk Avenue. We would have to go up the stairs. AO: (Inaudible) JW: Uh huh. AO: Who were some of the strong community leaders and what role did they play? JW: There was Reverend A.L. James, of course, he was the pastor of First Baptist. Reverend Powell who was pastor of Hill Street. Reverend Gilbert who was pastor of Sweet Union and there was Mrs. Lee and Mrs. Dean who lived over on Wells Avenue. There was Dr. Paxton and his wife and his mother who was a probation officer at that time. Mrs. Sly who was a nurse. They lived on Gilmer Avenue at that time. R.W. Clark and his wife. He was the undertaker or mortician or funeral director or whatever you call 'em and they lived down on Patton Avenue right after you cross this creek down here. There were my teachers, Miss Watkins who lived up on Harrison Avenue near where we built and Nelly Wise Reed. They lived up there. Miss Sarah Brown who was principal of Gilmer School and Miss Queen Williams who was principal of Gainsboro School. Miss Helen Skipper who was principal of Harrison School. Coach Lawson and his wife, or his first wife Sally Lawson was one of my teachers. Miss Beatrice Beale (??). She didn't teach me but she was a teacher at that time. Miss Lucy Stratton who was a member of First Baptist Church. Dr. L.C. Downing and his brothers E.D. Downing and AO: Gardner? JW: Yeah, Gardner. I think he was the dentist. Dr. H.T. Penn and his wife Laticia who was a pianist for First Baptist and she was also an organist at First Baptist. David Tranum (??) who was an organist at First Baptist . Dr. Moore, Dr. George Moore and his wife Alice. There are many others. Right now I can't think of a lot of them. AO: You did a great job. Who were your role models? JW: My mother of course. And then there was Miss Madge Wheaton. That was a teacher and I just loved her because she was such a good speaker and she was a beautiful lady. And Miss Rose ButlerBrown. She was a member of Jerusalem. Miss Sally Lawson of course. I just mentioned her. Miss Sadie Lawson. I thought she was a beautiful lady. There were several others that right now I can't think of them. 0.25.29.1 AO: How was your life effected by segregation and the Civil Rights Movement? JW: I was born during segregation and I can remember having to go to the back of the bus although I hated that long seat and I would never sit all the way in the back. I didn't ride during the peak hours because I really did not want to go all the way to the back. The buses and the streetcars were segregated during that time that I was growing up. Of course, none of us liked segregation and whenever we got a chance to move closer to the front or to not go places that were segregated then we would not go rather than go and be segregated. Some places you had to go but AO: Give me a for instance. When you say you had to go. JW: You know, like downtown. There were some places that used to would not let black people try 4 �clothes on and I never went to any of those places that I can remember but I used to hear people talk about not being able to try their clothes on. AO: If you didn't try them on and you took them home and then they didn't fit, could you return them? JW: Well, they told me that they could take them back but they just couldn't try them on in the store. I know a man that used to live up the street from me. He worked for N&W and he had 2 cars and he said he had 2 because he could not take his nicer car down to his job because if he did and his car was better than the foreman's that he would lose his job. I don't know how true that is but I've been told that. AO: Sounds reasonable to me. JW: There were people that had to go out of town to buy their cars because the car dealers here would not sell them the nicer cars. They would go out of town to buy their new cars. AO: Did you have any thoughts about the Civil Rights Movement here? JW: I was here during that time and the people that went down to Woolworth's and the Grant store that was here and McClellans, those places that had lunch counters. We would go down during that time and some of the men would go sit at the lunch counters and then we would come back and then some others would go down. Finally, it didn't take too many times before they integrated them and then some of the places like Shulte's they just closed up rather than AO: What was that? JW: Shulte's. That used to be down on Campbell Avenue. That was a department store that closed up during that time. McClellan's closed up during that time and Grant's. Kress's stayed open a little bit longer. And Woolworth's stayed open longer than that. But some of them just closed up rather than integrate. 0.30.20.0 AO: Did you have a spouse, sibling or children that served in the military? JW: Oh, yes. Both of my husbands were in the military and my oldest son was in the Air Force. His son was in the Army and the Air Force and I have a step-son that was in the Army. A grandson that was in the Army. AO: Did any of them serve during war time? JW: My son was in – He went to Turkey and he went to Spain and he served in England but this was mostly after World War II and the Korean War. My first husband was in World War II. He served in the Philippines during World War II, John Coleman. Jimmy Willis had served in World War II and in the Korean War. Both of them had medals that they had on during that time. AO: Tell me about your memories of urban renewal and what effect it had on your life. JW: I can remember when we lived in Northeast then. A lot of people had really, really nice homes and the Rose's that used to live on Rutheford Avenue and the Water's that lived on 4th Street. The Harston's. Just a lot of the people that lived around, not only those people but a lot of other people had just beautiful homes and they worked hard to get them and to fix them up the way that they wanted them. They just came and just took everything and they gave them little or nothing for their homes and then when they offered that land back for sale, they charged so much an inch for that property and it was just, it just wasn't right that they did that. AO: Is there anything else that we did not cover that you'd like to share with us? 0.33.48.2 JW: I do know that on Henry Street, there were a lot of buildings, a lot of businesses. I remember Eugene Calloway had a cab stand up there and it was the day and night taxi and Everett Hunt had a cab stand up there. Mr. Young who was Mrs. Lee's father had a poolroom up there. Harry Franklin had a poolroom up there. Dr. Brooks had a service station. In fact, we lived right off of Henry Street on Wells Avenue. They were getting ready to close up Henry Street during that time. Dr. Moore had an office up there. Later, there were clubs up there. Harry Russell had the 308 club up there and there was a Dining Car Club and Wagstaff had a business up there and he also had the Continental Club that 5 �had opened on Henry Street and Wells Avenue. Dr. Penn had a drug store up there as well as his practice that was upstairs with him and Dr. E.D. Downing and Dr. Gardner Downing. Of course, the Barlow's, Mac and Mac Sr.. Jack and Jill were the daughters of Mac Jr. and they had a little ice cream stand, Mac, Jack and Jill. They had the hotel. They were running the Hotel Dumas at that time. And the clubs used to have dances up on the third floor. They had a cafe downstairs. Some of the people that worked in there was Avis Alexander and Mud (??) Scott. And there were other people that worked in there. They had another club in Northeast called the HP Club that Hershey Steptoe (??) and another guy, I can't think of what his name was right now. They had one down there. The Wine store that was on 4th Street. Nick's started out on 4th Street and then it moved to Henry Street. And when the clubs used to have the dances at the Star City Auditorium, they would leave there and go to Nick's Place to eat after the dances. A lot of the clubs had formal dances at the Star City. Some people that came to the Star City like Little Richard and Solomon Burke and people like that came. Joe Munsty (??) had the Star City built. There were a lot of different people, famous people that came there as well as the American Legion Auditorium. 0.37.41.6 AO: That's very interesting. I'm curious about Dr. Penn having an office and a drug store. JW: Mm mm. The office was right there at where Henry Street bridge starts now, there was a big building on that corner that Dr. Penn owned and he had his offices and the Downing's had their offices upstairs. Dr. Penn had the drug store downstairs. We used to go over there in the evenings sometimes, summer evenings after church and buy ice cream and they had sodas and hot dogs. Mr. Neighbors that used to be the manager of the theater, Virginia Theater - That was across the street from the old High Street Church was – had a drug store. He and Dr. Robinson was the pharmacist and they had a drug store on the corner of Gainsboro – In fact, right across the street. AO: I was just kinda curious when I heard you say Dr. Brooks. JW: Yeah. Dr. Brooks had a drug store up there too. He was a pharmacist. AO: OK. He had the one right on the corner of Wells Avenue? JW: Well, it was right next to the building that was on the corner of Wells. AO: Just as a point of interest, what time frame did you just describe? JW: That was during the early '40s. From the '40s and '50s. AO: That was wonderful. ______ businesses on 1st Street that I truly appreciate. Is there anything else you'd like to share. JW: Well, I can't think of too much more than that. There are a lot of things that I could tell you about but just to AO: Bring it all to mind right now JW: Yeah, right off the top of my head. AO: I want to thank you for participating and giving us a wealth of information that was delightful for me to hear. And I'm sure that whoever comes behind me and listens to your oral history will be just as appreciative as I am. JW: Thank you and there was one more thing. My husband did work for Nick's and he worked at Atlantic Sandwich there. People that know the Atlantic Sandwich know that they had hot dogs for 10 cents and people just flocked in there for those hot dogs. AO: I'd like to have one of those myself. (both chuckling) Well, thanks again for your time and for your participation. JW: Your welcome. 6 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJeanette_Eades_30_Oct_2006.jpg 22f5c56892779aa39e07cb0b2fd81b64 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJ1.0_-_MenatWork.jpg 5e51057b54cbb6476eb5d268da569169 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJ2.0_-_Smart_Girls_Social_Club.jpg a73ba679467d14be133e0d3d03bdf1b9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJ3.0_-_Johnny_and_Paul_Stockton.jpg ae3d7799e5e9f7d408e6f8c2cc1b623f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJ4.0_-_Woman_Outside.jpg f237c93464e1c94297cc8d27e3154d18 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJ6.0_-_Daddy_and_Mamma_Tripp.jpg 69970b4dbb15d4cb3a1ceca2fca90c18 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2644/WillisJ7.0_-_Woman_Beside_Car.jpg a85cff5e9ff74a374577a49a6942fe70 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Jeanette Willis Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood Oral History Interview with Jeanette Willis Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 30 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 41:03 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jeanette Willis: Arleen Ollie; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WillisJeannette https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2643/McCaddenMac_[compressed].mp3 b1ba34db8dd91fbbe75a3b53d7c05005 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2643/McCaddenMac.pdf 46c7877352bf0e1e4dbad8c6cf4ea37d PDF Text Text Interviewee: Delvis “Mac” McCadden Interviewer: Arleen Ollie AO: I’m Arlene Ollie today is October 30th, and I’m about to interview Delvis Mac McCadden, and we are located at the Gainsboro library. Good-morning. DM: Good-morning. AO: Where and when were you born. DM: I was born on March 20th, 1950, in Roanoke, Virginia at Burrel (??) Memorial hospital. AO: Alright. Tell me about your parents, brothers, and sisters. DM: My parents, their siblings? AO: Yours. DM: My siblings? (DM catalogues the birth of his parents and siblings) DM: The first four years of my life, excuse me three years of my life, we lived in Southwest with my paternal grandparents in a large A-frame home on 13th street in Southwest. My grandparents, maternal grandparents lived about 5 blocks away, on 1100 block of Norfolk Avenue. When we moved to Northwest Roanoke they still lived in the same place so my grandparents, my paternal grandparents passed away in 1958 within a couple months of each other, but my maternal grandparents were always within 2-3 blocks of where we lived. (DM tells about his act ivies – played piano, baseball, football, basketball). AO: Describe your home life. For example, did you gather around the radio in the evening, do you remember when you got a telephone or a refrigerator, that kind of thing. DM: We always had a refrigerator. The only reason we gathered around the radio was to tune in, fine-tune baseball games where my father and I fought over which teams to listen to. But in terms of, we were for African-American families in Roanoke I guess we were considered middle-class, so we, my first recollection of a television set was in 1954 and the first one we owned was in 1955. And so, my family, my father working night-shift, as a family, and so he was sleeping during the time we would be watching television so we didn’t really gather around it. My mother selected what shows we would watch and we would be in bed by 9, and at that time radio was not the most essential part of our home life. We did get transistor radios, each one of us when we were 10, 11, 12, years of age, so we each had our own pocket-transistor, and so we listened to the kind of music we wanted to listen to, but my mom and my father didn’t generally listen to the radio. AO: Did you sit on the porch in the evenings? DM: Yes we did. We did, we sat on the porch, generally because of the streetlights the adults would sit on the porch, and the adults in the neighborhood would sit on the porch, and the kids would play games out under the lights in the evening, especially in the �spring and summer, and in fall, winter – of course we weren’t sitting on the porch, but very few get-togethers in the winter time. (AO asks about stories and DM mentions slavery, but does not go into any description, when prompted to expand he mentions the following: DM: The only one I remember came from my grandfather’s side of the family, they came from Hanover county, about 12 miles from Richmond, north of Richmond, about 6 miles east of Mechanicsville, Virginia, and they talked and told some stories about African-Americans post-slavery days, being chased and raids on homes and on individuals near the Chicahomanee (??) swamp, and unless you’re from that area I guess you wouldn’t know what a Chicahomanee (??), but I’ve been by the Chicahomanee (??) swamp and it’s currently in Mechanicsville, from what I remember, right near Lee Davis high school, and there seemed to be more, from his standpoint, there seemed to be more acts of violence and prejudice in that area of Richmond than in the western-side of the area. AO: What is your fondest childhood memory? For example, your favorite holiday event, you favorite family vacation, or a favorite gift you receive? DM: My favorite memories of my childhood take place in summer, each time it seems like it would take place in the middle of June in summer, and my parents were great baseball fans and my most fond childhood memories are vacations we would take, they would save up enough money so we would get in the car and drive to see a major league baseball game and we would stay two nights and probably see two games, and I found that was the close there ever was, we were not ever, my father’s night-shift work, my mother being a teacher, there was very little time for us to get-together and this was the time that I enjoyed the most even though we went to see Dodger’s games all the time, I’m not going to hold that against him, but we would go to Cincinnati and Philadelphia, and New York. And then one summer we went to see Baltimore, which I thought was strange because they weren’t American League fans, but just to have the opportunity to do that, when most other young folks of color did not have that opportunity, even then I thought that was remarkable. (DM describes his childhood house) DM: I had other part-time jobs. I delivered newspapers from 1962 ’til 1966. I had the morning route so I had to get up at 4:30, quarter to 5, and deliver the papers and I had 100-some customers on my route and I walked it. My parents were very supportive of that. My father, if it was inclement weather would get-up, if he was off that day, and carry-me on that route if it was ice or snow, or other than that I delivered it and they were very supportive. I was very independent, for some reason my parents thought that the two older – myself and my sister next to me – we were probably, they figured, the more responsible of the children and they didn’t put a lot of responsibility on my younger brother and sister, but they allowed me to keep my own money and they made enough that I didn’t have to give it back to the family. My father worked a couple of jobs, my mother being in education at that time was more prestigious financially than we consider �it to be now, but of course they struggled but it wasn’t so bad that all my money had to go into, back to them, that I actually had enough money saved up to buy a car when I was 16, and had enough money to buy a car it cost me $200 dollars. I paid for my own insurance and my own gas, and I charged kids that I took to school a dime-trip and it paid for my gasoline. So, you know, I was okay. AO: That was very smart. I was thinking about your newspaper route, was that in your neighborhood? DM: It was, but because back then Roanoke City had two newspapers – Roanoke Times and Roanoke World News. And Roanoke Times was the morning paper and Roanoke World News was the evening paper and I delivered the Roanoke Times and there weren’t as many customer for the Roanoke Times as there was for the Roanoke World News mainly because most people went to work and they weren’t there to usually get the paper and have the opportunity to read it. More people took the Roanoke World News but I didn’t like delivering paper 4-5 o’clock in the evening. And it was in my neighborhood, but it was a pretty large area 'cause I would go up a block and maybe no one would be taking a paper, so it was more area to cover for my paper route. And that was before they had adults driving their cars delivering papers, so it was a pretty large route. It would take me almost 2 hours to make the delivery. (DM mentions how he thinks integration changed Gainsboro) AO: How much schooling did you complete? DM: I have, you also want to know where I want to school and such things? AO: Uh-huh, DM: My first four years were at Gilmer (??) Elementary school, not Gilmer (??), Laudon (??) Elementary school, Gilmer (??) was a possibility but I went to Laudon (??). I walked out the backdoor of my house, up the fire escape and into my classroom. I mean I just crossed over an alley and went right in, I mean I could just leave a minute and a half before school started and I would be there and that’s what I did at Laudon (??). I mean I walked outta’ the backdoor of my house, crossed the alley, up the fire-escape and right into class. Then they didn’t check if you came in the front door or not, shoot you could walk right in the backdoor and it was great. Four years I went to Laudon (??), and my mother was the only African-American home-ec teacher in the Commonwealth of Virginia and she taught home-economics at Harrison Elementary school. My fifth and sixth years I went to Harrison Elementary school and my mother taught Home-Ec and she taught each of us, and she made life hell for each of us in class ‘cause she always thought she had to be harder on us than everyone else and I learned to bake, to cook, to sew, and I can still do those things but it was my mother that taught me and it wasn’t at home it was at school. And everyone who went to Harrison Elementary school, if you were a sixth grader you took home-ec from my mother and I left there and integration had come to Roanoke, it come in 1960 with three folks in September of ’60, and in September of 1962 I went to Monroe Junior High School as a seventh grader and there were seven of us who went in together, African-Americans, and they called us the “Magnificent Seven” ‘cause we were also the seven who graduated from William Fleming at the same time. So I went to Monroe Junior High School and I finished, graduated from William Fleming High School in 1968 and graduated on June the 12th and June the 13th I reported for basics �because I had been accepted in U.S. Air Force Academy prep-school and I went to U.S. Air Force Academy for two years. I flunked-out because I couldn’t pass math. And then I came back and went that summer to Virginia Western and then that Fall I got enrolled in Virginia Tech and I graduated from Virginia Tech, I finished in ’72 but I couldn’t get the degree until ’73. And then I got my Masters, I took a couple of courses between then and 2000, but in 2001 I enrolled at Radford and completed my Masters in 2002, and so I have a Masters in Educational Leadership. AO: You said in 1960 Integration started with three people? DM: Yes, ma’am. AO: And you were part of a group called “the Magnificent Seven?” DM: in ’62. AO: ‘62. Do you know where the three graduated from in ’60? DM: Sure. The three that went in in 1960, two at Monroe Junior High, one at Melrose Elementary. The one at Melrose Elementary was Roselyn Long, and the next year her brother and younger sister came in there, and the two at Monroe Junior High were Eula Point-Dexter, who I think may still be in the area, and Cecilia Long and she in now Dr. Reverend Dr. Cecilia Long and she is on the board of trustees and she’s a Hollins University graduate and on the board of trustees at Hollins University and I think she was a councilor and now also a minister – I don’t think she has a church – but her major work is with a church, I think in school ministry in, I think in Houston, but the Long’s parents are now deceased. And none of the Long children, the three of them, were of the first five to ever integrate Roanoke City schools but none of them is local right now but I do have a way to contact Roselyn Mitchell, Roselyn Long Mitchell who did integrate at Melrose Elementary. AO: So do you keep up with the other six of the “Magnificent Seven”? DM: Yes. Six of the “Magnificent Seven” are still alive, one passed away and we now have a scholarship in her memory at William Fleming. We give a scholarship every year to a student, and last year it was two, at William Fleming High School in her name, and we raise money with a golf tournament and a silent auction and things like that, but we give a $2500 scholarship to a student from William Fleming High School. AO: That’s fantastic. DM: And all of the “Magnificent Seven” have done fairly well. One of them, Billy Candidate, is now the state superintendent of the schools in the Commonwealth of Virginia. We have one that’s a doctor, one who’s part-owner in a trucking-firm and so it, and one who’s an executive with All State, we have everyone of the “Magnificent Seven,” I consider myself mildly successful, but everyone of them, I think, did very well. Everyone of them and that to me says a whole lot. And a major reason I say that – we felt, we didn’t at the time because we didn’t understand but in the later years we’ve become a little bit more upset about which ones they picked to go in, at that time it was not forced integration and therefore we had to take a test to see if we were “worthy” of going into the so-called “white school.” AO: Wow. DM: We were tested. We were tested. And then, after that, if you passed the test to get into the white school it had to be okay with your parents to allow you to go, we had to get �a waiver so we could go to the white school, otherwise we would have gone to Bookatic (??). The problem that we faced after that is that some of us, most of us, were not well received by the black students because we didn’t go to Bookatic (??) and to Addison. We did not understand why we were placed, our parents told us but I don’t think we understood at 10, 11, why we were going to Monroe, the significance of what we were doing and what it meant not just for us and for education since but for our race. We didn’t understand that and I think that later on we did, and I think it caused us to get a little closer together and I think it caused us to look at integration and its results and its effects not just in our schools and in our cities, but it caused us to look at things a whole lot differently than some. I think we had a wider opinion and different view and I think we realized that every white person was not awful and not every white man didn’t act like Barney Fiff (??). We went into that situation looking at folks as differently and I didn’t understand why I shouldn’t be fighting when someone called me a name or especially called my mother a name and I did, I got sent home for the first five days of school for fighting when we integrated ‘cause I didn’t understand what it is we were trying to do. My father would tell me: “Don’t you let anybody call your mama a name” and my mother would say: “Son you don’t understand why you have to let that go.” And so it was a different atmosphere for us but I’m very proud of what the “Magnificent Seven” did. AO: So am I. (DM talks about outdoor/indoor malls) AO: Do you remember the closing of the silk mills? DM: In ’57 and ’58, I remember them but I don’t, we’re talking about the ones in Southeast? AO: Mhmmm. DM: I remember when they closed. I remember folks being out of jobs, I remember southeast really going downhill after that. I remember southeast being a fairly vibrant part of our city, of course those kids went to Jefferson High School. I think it was a wellestablished part of our city. I remember when they did close it was the dearth of Southeast, it caused Southeast to go downhill so quickly. And I mean, it wasn’t that it was a gradual thing, it plummeted ‘cause most of those folks lived there and worked there and when they closed Visco’s plant, those plants, I remember it took an immediate toll – it wasn’t gradual – it took an immediate toll not just on Roanoke city but especially Southeast. Then at that point when it took a toll real estate, you know, regressed there and it became the catch-all for anyone who had financial or family problems. That’s where they went – to Southeast – because property was cheap and rent was cheap if you had to rent a place. I do remember the impact immediately afterward and for an 8-9 year-old guy, kid, 10 I guess when I saw, 1962 when I really realized what had happened there. I remember playing baseball at Monroe and playing Jackson and the first year, my seventh grade year, I remember that it seemed like a really nice place to go but by my ninth grade year, ’64 you could tell the difference. And you could tell how the city looked at it and I don’t think our city did enough to save the neighborhood. (DM talks about Gainsboro library) �DM: I remember . . . my first date was taken a girl in 1965 walking her to the Melrose Branch Library, got my first kiss on the way home (laughs). AO: Who were some of the strong community leaders, and what role did they play? DM: Back when I remember strong community leaders I would say my grandfather was the first one I knew of. You are talking of African-American leaders? AO: Mhmmm. DM: My very first recollection of a strong community leader was my grandfather who was a pastor at Juism (??) Baptist church and it was before the building of Hurt (??) Park and my grandfather was very instrumental in the school, that school being built and I think it should have been named after him. But at that time there was not a school in the city beyond, no elementary school was named for a person at that time and I remember my mother campaigned for that school to be named after my grandfather – he’s the very first one I met – and then my grandfather being a minister at that time so the strong civic leaders I knew about at that time were all preachers, so at that time they had an NAACP in the early 60s, late 50s early 60s, was Reverend R.R. Wilkinson who was the pastor of Hill Street Baptist church before it moved here and I remember him being a really strong influence. A Barns Smith, I remember him, and I remember Lawrence Hammler, those three formed the initiative to help with the smooth integration of the school system. And got there congregations to go along with it. I remember Reverend Burton joining that group and becoming a very strong – he was a very young man than – a very strong contributor to easing the integration movement. I remember when Nole (??) Taylor came to town. Nole (??) Taylor was a very close friend of my grandfather, my grandfather at one point taught at a seminary in Lynchburg and Nole (??) Taylor was one of his students years ago. And I remember when Nole (??) Taylor came to town and he got involved in the civil rights movement as a result of Reverend Wilkinson. There were a lot of things said about Reverend Wilkinson – how he behaved, things he did, why he was not in his church anymore but overall I think Reverend R.R. Wilkinson did more to help with the integration of Roanoke than did any other person of his day, and I mean late 50s early 60s, but that whole group Smith, Wilkinson, Burton, Hunter – my grandfather, and Taylor were, I think, very significant community leaders who helped change what our perception of integration should be and they were very strong. I don’t remember any other strong business leaders besides Hammler and Smith, who were the strong economic backbone of the community. (DM talks about his grandfather’s name, birth, marriage and being a Republican) AO: Is there anything else we didn’t cover that you’d like to share with us? DM: I’d like to say that my brother and sisters, all 4 of us, did go to the so-called white school after we left elementary school. Each one of us, each one of us was taught by my mother in 6th grade and each of us went to the so-called white schools, the last school integrated in Roanoke city was in 1970 and was Patrick Henry high school so we had a disdain for Patrick Henry, a disdain, we despised Patrick Henry because they didn’t have any black students there when we were in high school, it was hate. To this day I have something against Patrick Henry, I let people know I’m proud to be a Fleming Kernel but I have a disdain for Patrick Henry because once they started letting blacks in because �they were almost forced to, that was the only reason. When those two schools were built, and not many people know this, those two – Fleming High School and Patrick Henry High School were built where they are to prevent integration. When Fleming was built the dividing line between Roanoke City and Roanoke County was Hershberger road. William Fleming at the time it was built was built on Roanoke County property. It was only annexed in in 1976, I think. It was Roanoke county property. It was built where Brekenwich (??) stands now which was the old Fleming high school ‘cause blacks had moved out that far and they felt they could keep it as long as possible. They knew when they built Patrick Henry High School where they built it that it would never be integrated unless they were forced to do so. That’s why Patrick Henry was built where it is instead of redoing Jefferson downtown or putting it near some other part of the downtown area. It was put there for a reason and when we were allowed to go to Fleming it was because we lived close and could get by there. There were no blacks living out in South Roanoke and Southwest, out in Grandin Court, Raleigh Court, so they didn’t have to integrate Patrick Henry. So we had a disdain, if we played Patrick Henry whatever we could to do to disrupt Patrick Henry we would do it. We just had a hate for them. And I also had a disdain for students who went to Patrick Henry just because they could when they was integrated. They went there because it was supposed that since Fleming integrated first it wasn’t getting the benefits of education that Patrick Henry was getting. We weren’t getting the same books, you know, the same quality of education that they were getting at Patrick Henry. Therefore, for kids to go there just for that, we had a little disdain for them later on, even after I was an adult, even after I taught at, and I taught at Patrick Henry and I still had a disdain for it. But I think that folks don’t understand that even though we were integrated, the type of integration Roanoke City had was to keep it to going to federal court. Our integration was not forced because Roanoke came-up with a plan to keep it from going to federal court. Had Roanoke’s case been going, gone to federal court, it would have integrated Patrick Henry around 1964. The reason they built those schools with a plan, putting those schools where they were, Roanoke would not be subjected to the mandatory busing law. And that’s why, that’s why they were built there and that’s why it took so long for Patrick Henry to be integrated because Roanoke had a plan – as light as it was – it was a plan that was well thought through, and it was to keep us from integrating and to keep us from busing. And that’s why it was put in place. And I want to say that my thoughts on Gainsboro are probably not as strong as some other folks. But then again I think I’m a little young to know of Gainsboro in its hey-day and to understand fully the significance of its demise. I mean I have strong feelings based on having lived part of my life during that time and having parents and grandparents with strong feelings regarding it. But mine are more post-Gainsboro as it was known back then, than folks older than I. AO: I thank-you very much for participating, it’s been very enlightening and this will be a good story for eternity (??). DM: I appreciate it. Yeah, put it in a time-capsule somewhere. Maybe it will go up on a space shuttle or a space suit somewhere – (laughs). AO: Absolutely. It goes up, you’re with it (laughs). DM: That’s right. AO: Thank-you again. �Track Two: AO: Could you elaborate on your feelings with integration, being one of the first blacks in this area and how it affected you. DM: I think integration affected me more so, and I don’t mean to brag ‘cause it’s not anything to brag about, but I think it affected me more than it affected anybody else of the seven of us who went to school. My complexion being light that wasn’t really accepted by either side. Whites obviously wouldn’t accept me because we were something they hadn’t seen before and black folks didn’t really accept me, I think they were ticked off we were going to the white school and then I’m of light complexion and I wasn’t really accepted by them either. I spent my entire middle and high school years trying to be accepted by somebody and I don’t think I ever was. And I think it affected my youngest sister more than it affected me because she’s really light complex and has blond hair and even to this day, she’s 51-years-old, and I think she’s suffered the consequence from the reaction of folks to her because of what she looked like. I remember even being an adult it affected me playing baseball. The first nine years of my adult professional life were in baseball – two as a player, seven as an umpire and I remember my very first professional game was in Rocky Mount North Carolina and going to the park with a cap-on when I came out in the dug-out, I mean nobody could tell, they knew I wasn’t white, you know, some of the features, but they didn’t know what I was. And I remember somebody in the back before the national anthem: “Oh my god they sent us an A-Rab!” (laughs) And I thought “Oh my lord, no!” And then I took off my hat for the national anthem and the same guy screams: “They didn’t send us an ARab, they sent us a nigger. I went “Oh my lord,” and my partner says: “Welcome to professional baseball.” They ended up ejecting five players that day, three from one team, two from another. But I think a lot of it was caused by my complexion and so I’ve had a, it’s been a sore spot for me and probably my brother and my sister and I’m in the middle. My sister is lighter complexion, my brother’s a little darker, but I would say first off, it probably had a big affect on me and then my younger sister. I don’t know if people can appreciate what its like to feel like you aren’t accepted by anybody. My mother is one of those light complex people who didn’t care, she’d tell how she feels in a heart beat and I think I got a lot of strength from her and in regards to that, and I think it has allowed me to see issues differently than some other folks. I’m bitter probably about some things that some other folks aren’t and I’m bitter towards my own folks for not accepting me and sometimes I’m bitter about that, but I’m also more objective about some things ‘cause my reason ability has allowed me to see why folks see things they way they do and I think that’s been a benefit to me. But I think if I had to take back, I think if the question was: if I had to take back the worst memories I would have of my life as a child in Roanoke?” it would not have been when we integrated the schools so much as as being hurt sometimes and not accepted by anybody. And that’s been something that’s bothered me for 50 years. AO: Okay. �� https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2643/McCadden_Mac_30_October_2006.JPG 229af40dd2309a20b8c04aeaade40e40 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Delvis "Mac" McCadden Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Delvis "Mac" McCadden Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 30 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 42:46 Transcription prepared by: unknown Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Delvis O. McCadden; Arleen Ollie Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McCaddenDelvis https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2642/ShareefReginald_[compressed].mp3 a0caa0ac9e5b364506f8840d2d58ba90 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2642/ShareefReginald.pdf 3f18c8c6bcb49ee28abc83298aa87ee4 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Reginald Shareef Interviewer: Anne Stuart Beckett Transcriber: Andrew Sterling It is October 19, 2006. We are here at the Gainsboro Library in Roanoke, Virginia. RS: Good morning. AB: Good morning. Dr. Shareef, can you tell me where and when you were born? RS: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, April 15, 1951. AB: How long have you lived in Gainsboro? RS: Through my early years, we lived over on Harrison Avenue for about 5 years and I went all of my elementary school days at Harrison School so that was kindergarten through 6. AB: Did you graduate high school here? RS: Yeah, I graduated from Lucy Addison High School in 1969. AB: And then did you move away after high school? RS: Well, I went to college. I went to Virginia State College which is now Virginia State University and I finished Virginia State in 1974 and I went back and got a Master's at Virginia State after that. Then, I moved back here and started working and married and raising a family. Then, later on, I started working on my PHD at Virginia Tech. AB: That's a lot of hard academic work. Could I ask what inspired you to go with that path? RS: My family – I came from a working-class family and my family put a lot of emphasis on education. The one thing that my father would always support you in was going to school. Otherwise, when you got 18, you were on your own. But if you went to school, he would support you. (laughing) AB: That's a big difference there. RS: Yeah, that's a big difference. My mother was also a librarian. She was the librarian at Harrison Elementary School. I watched my mother work to get her Master's Degree. AB: Wow. That was good. RS: Yeah, quite an accomplishment for an African-American woman in the 1960s. Virginia Tech and UVA would not - They were not really receptive to blacks during that period. AB: Right, especially black women. RS: Especially black women. It would be what you would today a “hostile environment”. So during the summers, probably from 1960 through 1965, my mother used to relocate during the summer and go to Ohio State in Columbus to work on her Master's in Library Science. She would take me, my cousin and my – My brother and sister were 8 and 9 years older than I was. So, when we initially went, she took them and they watched us. Right. But during the later years, they were gone to college so we went and my cousin and I – He was 2 years older than I am. She would just rent a little apartment and catch the bus. My mother didn't drive. Actually, this is my mother here. AB: That's your mother there. RS: That's my mother. AB: On the cover of this book that you wrote. RS: That I wrote. AB: Roanoke Valley's African-American Heritage. RS: And so she would just catch the bus to Ohio State and she would take 6 hours a summer and my father would stay here. He worked for the railroad. And so, actually when I was going to graduate school – When I initially went to graduate school, I wasn't married. Then, I actually picked up another Master's after I got married and started on my PHD. But anytime I thought about how difficult my struggle was, I would always think back to my mother and it relatively – It was hard but relatively it wasn't because she went through a lot more trying to get her Master's Degree. 1 �AB: And a lot longer. RS: A lot longer, yeah. AB: It would've been easy to quit many times for her along the way. RS: That's right, yeah. So she was very inspirational. My father was because he really supported her. He wasn't threatened by the fact that she was getting a graduate degree. So, I had a family structure where we all really supported one another in our endeavors. It was difficult but coming out of that context, it always gave me a point of reference to say that I had it a lot better than my mother. AB: Without that support, none of you would've achieved what you have. 0.04.49.2 RS: Exactly. Exactly. You have to – I really believe that and I think one of the strengths of my family and other families I grew up around was that people really were supportive. If you were doing something positive, you got a lot of support. And I've carried that on. I was just telling Alicia that she's born between my two children. My son was born in 1979 and my daughter was born in 1982. My son just finished Law School and my daughter's in Medical School. AB: Good Lord. RS: But its the same type of support and people often ask me now because Malique is 27 – He just finished Law School and took the bar and they were saying, “Well, isn't it time for him to do this or do that?”. But still, we supported him as he tries to venture out and do some things that may not be so conventional at this point. In a couple of years, if that doesn't work, he's gonna have to do more conventional things but, right now, we support him. Again, just coming out of that background, that cultural background I guess you would call it. AB: A lot of us don't have that, didn't have that support. Black or white. RS: I think you know when you're growing up black, you tend to think that all whites have it. And one of the things as I've grown up – In fact, there was a man that recently died in Salem, Morris Elam. And Morris Elam, his son and I are good friends and he probably owns more property in Salem than anybody. And so when he died in September, Joe Kennedy wrote an article about him in the paper. I wrote Joe Kennedy and told Joe that I really liked the article and that Mr. Elam had always been like an inspiration to us. This is a guy that loved jazz. So, most people didn't know that. For the last 25 years, he went to Nice, France, every year for the Jazz Festival. He loved jazz, right. And Joe Kennedy said the same thing back to me. He said, “You know, I _____ don't know anybody like that.”. So when you grew up in a segregated society, and you don't interact with people who are different from you, you tend to think that other people have all of the advantages. AB: Exactly. RS: Then, as you grow and you talk to people and you talk about your life experience, something that was very, very common. The three people I interviewed, they all had a lot of family support and aunts helped 'em and all that. We just kinda took it for granted and we just never knew until we got older that people that we thought had more privilege or advantage didn't have it. AB: That they didn't. So you think the segregation typically would bring families closer together. Is that what you found out? RS: Yeah, because you couldn't survive without it. You could not survive. My family, my father had a philosophy that, although he loved us all, that you couldn't do anything to take away from the family. So, my older brother, for example, sometimes would get in trouble. Interestingly, he would get in trouble helping other people. But he would get in trouble nonetheless. And I can remember once we had to put the house up to bond him out of jail. My father told me, “If you do this again, we're not going to get you out of jail because it really endangers all of us.”. And so, we grew up like that and you really, you had to to survive. There were no credit cards. There was nobody to borrow money from so you had to be frugal and do these type things and at the time, because everybody else is doing 'em, you don't think anything about it. 2 �AB: 'Cause everyone else is doing the same thing. RS: Same thing. Yeah. I mean we were working-class and actually we were economically better off than a lot of other people. One of the real interesting things about going to all-black schools, right, especially Addison High School because no matter where I've gone since I left Addison High School, there was more diversity in Addison High School, although it was all black. The diversity was based on class lines. AB: Class lines. Economic class lines. RS: Economic class lines, yeah. So, you had kids there - like my father worked for the railroad. Both my parents worked. AB: That was a good job at that time to work for the railroad, that was prestigious. RS: Exactly. Exactly. We had regular income. Parents struggling to send you to college. But then, you would go to school with kids from different parts of Roanoke who didn't have that. And so we were always taught to be thankful for what we had. 0.10.03.5 AB: And a lot of people aren't. RS: A lot of people aren't. One of the things I never knew, for example, and probably one of the reasons I get chilled easily is that I grew up in a house that had a furnace in the middle room, right. So the back rooms, where the bedrooms were, actually, the rest of the house was always cold. But that middle room was warm, right. But I didn't know any different. All of us had the same situation. AB: Every house was the same. RS: Every house was the same. So when my brothers, sisters and I got up in the morning in the winter, we would go and stand over the grate, right, and we would literally thaw out. I didn't know. (laughing) So being so much younger than my brothers and sisters – When my sister finished college in 1965 AB: Golly, that's admirable. RS: Yeah, my parents were all excited about we're going to have baseboard heat. And I'm like, “What's baseboard heat?”. Right? AB: Sure. RS: And so all summer, these men put this heat in and I can remember, you know, sometimes, we used to go to bed when it really got cold, we used to go to bed. It almost looked like you were going outside because it was cold. (laughing) I can remember my father telling me, “You're not going to have to do that.”. And then, that winter, when it was really cold outside, ever room in the house was warm. And then I figured out what baseboard heat was. So now, sometimes, I sit in my house and my children have never experienced this. My children have never. I mean we've got forced air and air just flies out, hot air, right? ( both laughing heartily) So all those kind of experiences bonds you. It gives you what sociologists call a “shared reality”. AB: Shed reality? RS: Shared reality. So growing up in that environment, all of us had a shared reality that we can all relate to that. If somebody else was around and I was telling that story, they would say the same thing. Very few houses had heat in every room. Radiator heat or anything, forced air, anything. Yeah, in many ways, there were some strengths in growing up in an environment like that. You were taught to really appreciate things. You were around people who didn't have. You learned to respect them. You learned to evaluate people not based on material acquisitions but who they were. So, in that sense, you know, it gave you a lot of strength. It gave you a lot of character. It prepared you, I think, to come out into a world that, at that particular time, sometimes was hostile to you. So, again, it had its strengths and its negatives. Of course, the opportunities weren't there. AB: What were some of the weaknesses Dr. Shareef? RS: That would be one. I mean, I think that one of the things when you grow up in a segregated society, people who are different from you are very mysterious to you. 3 �AB: Do you mean white people? RS: Whites or Asians. AB: Anyone outside of this neighborhood. RS: Outside of the group. AB: 'Cause you stayed in this neighborhood, right? Basically? RS: Yeah, for a great period of my time. Except, I went to work. I went to schools. I began to often be the only black in these other environments. And one of the great things I learned through that, of course, was that human beings are human beings. I think that's one of the great strengths or arguments for diversity today is that when people interact with one another and socialize with one another and work with one another, I mean, you really see this notion, this reality that there is really no race but the human race. But as long as people are separated, you don't know them. So they're kinda mysterious and you operate off of stereotypes and things like that. AB: Fear. 0.14.26.3 RS: Yeah, fear. Anxiety. Just a whole lot of things because you don't know. There is the unknown. And so I think that growing up, again, in a segregated society, you pick up a lot of attributes but its also good to be more inclusive and to begin to interact in a broader context. So I think that sometimes I often think about that now when, for example, young blacks will still go to historically black colleges. And I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, I went to a historically black college and it was a great experience, a very supportive experience. Yet, at some point, there is this larger world out there and now when we're talking about diversity or we're talking about a global economy, we're not just talking about whites, we're talking about Asians, Arabs and all these people who have different cultural patterns. At some point, you have to become immersed in that. You have to go out there. You have to take who you are out into that broader world. So, I was at a historically black college last year. I made a short presentation and I mean, its a very, very supportive environment but I left just having mixed feelings because those kids also are going to have to come out and interact and socialize and work with people who are very, very different. And you just don't do that. Its learned behavior. I think that would be one of the weaknesses. I guess, maybe because of my parents, I was kind of pushed to do that. To go out, venture out. AB: Do you think that was the exception though or do you think that other kids had the same type of parents? Or are you special there? RS: I don't want to say my parents were exceptional but when I look at the things my parents were doing, I don't know other parents that were doing that. I think in one sense they were. They were always affirming who I was and who my brother was and who my sister was. We were just as good, just as intelligent. We could do whatever we put our minds to. I know I've carried that over into the raising of my children and in many ways, my children have often been the only African-Americans. We're also Muslims. AB: Even today? RS: Even today. My son went to Washington & Lee Law School 3 years ago. AB: Yeah, he was definitely a minority. RS: My daughter is at Marshall University School of Medicine and when she started, she and another black guy were the only black kids. And this is 2 or 3 years ago. In many ways its carried over. But the children were raised. Now they really got a heavy dose of that “Its a diverse world and you have to go out in it and there's nothing to be anxious about or fearful of. They're just people. They may do things differently, culturally.”. I think that that's real important. Its extremely important. AB: OK. Now, do you still live here in Roanoke? RS: I live in Roanoke, yes. AB: And your children, they're at college. Do you expect them to come back or do you think they'll 4 �keep going? Do you want them to come back? RS: I don't know. I don't know. AB: This is confidential. They won't hear this. (both laughing) RS: I have mixed feelings about it. I mean, sometimes, I think Roanoke is a great place, probably, the Roanoke Valley is a great place to raise a family, cost of living – Those type things. Culturally and socially, maybe not, maybe not so great. So, I'm not really sure. I think my, Faye and I, my wife made it our goal to get these children through their education. My son always wanted to go to law school. My daughter always wanted to go to medical school. We've done that. AB: Not many families like that. RS: So, when they finish – When he passes the bar and when she finishes, wherever they locate its fine with me. AB: You think it'd be a bigger city then? Most likely for what they're doing it seems. RS: Well, it may. I don't know. My son's been here and he recently, while waiting for bar results and stuff, he sees a lot of opportunities. Again, as an African-American in Roanoke, if you're educated, there actually is a lot of opportunity. Number one, its very few of us. And so, he's seen that. Now whether he wants to stay or not is a whole different question. AB: That's up to him. How many siblings did you have? RS: I had a brother and sister. AB: And they were older than you? RS: Yes, 8 and 9 years older than I was. So almost AB: Almost like an only child. Once they were gone, it was just you. RS: When they went away, its was like just me. In many ways, I had a lot of benefits they didn't have, right. They were adults and out working when I became a teenager and so, we laugh and joke about that now. But, ironically, I spoke at - my brother's deceased – but he finished Addison High School in 1960 and when they had their 40th class reunion, his classmates asked me to be the speaker at the thing, right. 0.20.24.8 AB: Wow, that's big. RS: Yeah. And the interesting thing I found was that I probably counted 10 people, at least, in his class that I knew that had brothers and sisters my age. So that gap wasn't that unique. Here you are talking about a time before birth control pills and oral contraceptives and all of that and so, it wasn't that unique. And all of us kinda benefited. We kinda can laugh and joke and say we benefited because they were gone and there was more money in the house, living conditions improved. AB: There was heat. RS: There was heat in every room. (laughing) So, it was a big difference. It really was. AB: Now did they go to school? You said your sister went to college too. RS: Yeah, my sister finished North Carolina Central College in Durham, North Carolina, and she was a librarian like my mother and she retired from the DC public schools maybe 5 years ago. She's 62 I think. AB: Yeah, that's right. She's older. RS: I'm 55 so I guess she's 63 now. And my brother went to college. He didn't finish. He is deceased. AB: Sorry. RS: It's OK. Thank you. AB: You said you lived on Harrison Avenue and your father worked for the railroad. Did you live in a railroad house? Can you describe the – RS: No. AB: So it wasn't a railroad house like on Gilmer and Patton? RS: No. 5 �AB: Was it brick or framed? Did you have a garden? RS: I think it was – It wasn't brick. I mean I can see the house now. AB: So it doesn't exist any longer? RS: It exists, yeah, it exists. I'm not sure what that house was constructed of but it wasn't brick. AB: OK. RS: A few of the houses on that part of Harrison Avenue are brick. You can ride up Harrison Avenue AB: Its mostly frame houses. RS: Mostly frame. AB: Was it 2 story? RS: No, it was actually a one floor house. But, again, it was really interesting even though I moved from there when I was 5 years old AB: Oh, that's right. RS: People in that community who still live there, still remember our family living there. I can go there now and people will say – Its really interesting – Wherever you lived, you became part of that community for the rest of your life. AB: For the rest of your life. RS: For the rest of your life. AB: That's unusual. I've never heard that before. RS: Its at least 3 families that still live on that block on Harrison Avenue and I can go there now and they'll still say, “Boy, I remember you when you were this and -”. So that was real interesting and so every community I've lived in, I claim that community and that community claims me. AB: Wow. RS: That's the other thing about growing up in Roanoke, at least for me. You were always rooted somewhere. You were always rooted in the community. People knew you whether it was the high school or the elementary school. AB: I didn't have that growing up. That's unusual. I lived in the suburbs. No downtown where I grew up. Just have on your own. RS: Well, see, it was the exact opposite. That's what I was saying. My brother AB: So you couldn't get in trouble. People knew you. RS: You couldn't get in trouble and people would protect you, yeah. That's what I'm saying. I could – My carcass stopped on Harrison Avenue now and I know people that I could walk to a house and knock on the door and they would let me in and do anything in the world for me. And the same thing in the other Northwest neighborhoods I lived in. AB: Where did you move to after Harrison? RS: We moved on 13th Street, Northwest. That was right off of Rugby Boulevard. That was in 1956 and we owned that house. My father died in 1987 so that was 31 years and we sold the house in 1990. AB: That was tough. So that's where you grew up, down on 13th Street. RS: That's where I grew up. AB: Why did he move? He moved farther away from the railroad then. RS: Well, yeah, but I mean this was the time that Northwest Roanoke, the better houses, - whites were moving out those houses AB: Out of Northwest? RS: Out of Northwest beyond 10th Street. AB: Near Rugby? RS: Yeah, Rugby. AB: That's a nice area. RS: And so again, the houses were better. The neighborhoods were better. AB: That was probably a brick house then. 6 �RS: A brick house, yeah. And so, again, as working class people my family social and economics were improving. We moved from there and we moved into another neighborhood and again, most of the people were working class. A lot of school teachers. So it was a step up. 0.25.19.4 AB: In '56. RS: Yeah. AB: That's a nice neighborhood. Yards to play in and nice wide streets. RS: Exactly. Eureka Park was right behind my house so it was a very nice park, a baseball diamond and so, again, it was really a step up. I mean, it was not unusual when you look at demographics or what urban planners look at in cities, when one group moves out, another group moves in. So, in larger cities, of course, its more diversity. Here, it was just whites were moving further AB: Out of the city. Where were they going? RS: Well, they were initially going further up in Northwest. And then eventually out into the county, Northwest County and all up there. AB: And that was '50s, '60s, '70s? RS: Mm mm. Yeah. AB: OK. I guess getting more land and bigger houses and further away from the core of the city, downtown. RS: Core of the city, yeah. AB: So that gave you the opportunity to buy the house. RS: Exactly. AB: That was pretty prestigious in '56. RS: A big deal. AB: Did your dad have a car back then or did people walk or take the trolley? RS: My father didn't have a car until 1960. AB: And you remember that? RS: I remember the first car. Oh, yeah. It was 1960. And, of course, my brother finished high school in 1960 so he really felt like, whoa, right. Until then, we didn't have a car and AB: How did your dad get to work? RS: He rode with other men from the railroad. Somebody else in the neighborhood would come by and pick him up. I don't really remember him riding the bus a lot. The same thing with my mother, another teacher would pick her up and they would go down to Harrison. AB: And where was she teaching at the time? RS: She spent the whole time at Harrison Elementary where I went. Didn't mean I didn't get in trouble. It just meant that when I got in trouble, I got double the punishment but I got in trouble believe me. AB: You should, you're supposed to. (both chuckling) RS: Yeah, that was the logic. I didn't quite understand it but, OK. It was always this tension. I mean you had the guys – I wanted to be one of the guys but I was also a teacher's son and so that inevitably led to me having to prove myself sometimes. AB: Or over-prove it and get in trouble. RS: And get in trouble. AB: She understood that I'm sure. RS: Well, she did, but she couldn't show it so when I got the spankings or the punishment AB: Is that what she would do? Spank you? RS: She would and whatever teacher that when I acted up would AB: Oh yeah, that's right. They could spank you then. RS: They would spank me, yeah. There was corporal punishment. 7 �AB: In front of other students? RS: Certainly. AB: Ooooo. RS: Oh yeah. AB: I bet they were laughing. Did they laugh when you got punished? The students? RS: They would, yeah, they would laugh but you know as a guy you kinda earned your stripes like that, right. So when I was Addison High School in fact, one time we got – My father would always say – He would tell us, “If something happens in school, don't call down to the railroad for me.”, right, because he didn't want to have to ask to get off. My father did not – The racism was so bad. Like you said, the job was a job that provided for his family so, he didn't want to ever have to go to his boss. AB: No trouble. RS: I can remember once when my brother got in trouble at Addison High School and they had to call my father and my brother who didn't fear anybody at Addison High School, literally hid when my father was coming over there. 'Cause he was a big guy and he didn't take a lot of stuff. So, 8 years later, I got in some trouble and I can remember getting called to the Principal's office. It was 4 of us. We thought – We didn't really realize we had done something as bad as we did but before that – This was a new Principal. Before that, the most that anybody – The old Principal would put you out of school was 3 days. So we get in the Principal's office and he's just so angry with us and especially with me because I had really disobeyed something he told us not to do. I went ahead and did it anyway. So he said, “I'm gonna put you out.”. He knew my parents and he said, “I'm gonna put you out. All 4 of you, I'm gonna suspend all 4 of you.”. So we were waiting for the 3 day thing. He says, “2 weeks”. AB: Oh! RS: Yeah, and he said, “I want all your parents to come over here and Reggie I want your father, not your mother, your father.”. 0.30.00.1 AB: This is bad. RS: I remembered my brother. I said, “Well, I'm not going to run and hide. I'm not going to punk out like that.”. What I did was I went to the front of the school because I said if my father hits me, only the people on this side of the school will be able to see it. But he didn't. He was understanding actually. AB: Were you still suspended for 2 weeks? RS: 2 weeks. AB: I bet your mom was unhappy about that. That was worse with your mom, wasn't it? Get that silent punishment or RS: No. As long as I got my work. AB: So you still did your homework. RS: Yeah, you still got your homework everyday. But I think – I really believe in the history of Addison High School, that was the longest suspension of anybody. 2 weeks was a long time. AB: He made a good point then. RS: He made a serious point. He made a serious point. AB: You haven't forgotten that one. RS: I haven't forgotten it. Never forgot it. Tell the story all the time. (both laughing) I used to see the Principal after I got to be an adult and would ask him, “Did you have to put us out for 2 weeks?”. But he felt it was so egregious what we did that it called for that. And it really did. It sent a message to everybody AB: To the whole student body. RS: To everybody else. So nobody else ever quite pulled that stunt again. AB: What did your father do at the railroad? RS: He was, for many years, he was a cleaner or a janitor and then 8 �AB: Did he work at the shops or at the general office? RS: No, he worked in the general office building down here. AB: Do you know if it was the north or the south? RS: I can't remember now but I know that he worked in the old building which was AB: The first RS: The one where the condos are now. AB: Which is now 8 Jefferson Place. RS: Yeah, OK. AB: Those are the condos. That's the older building. RS: That's the older building. They used to call it the old building and the new building. AB: Oh really? I never that. Old building, new building. RS: At the time, they still carried mail on the trains. So a better job was to be like the mail clerk that sorted the mail and put it in the bag so they could put it on the train. So he did that and then in the late 1960s blacks were allowed to have clerical jobs, salaried jobs. AB: In the '60s. RS: Late '60s. He was one of the first blacks to get one of those jobs. AB: So he had been at the railroad for a while so he earned that. RS: He had been at the railroad since 1942 so we're talking about 1968, so '52, '62, 25 years to get that job. Those jobs weren't open to blacks. AB: Right. RS: Only hourly janitorial type jobs. AB: But he got that. That was big just to have that position with the railroad. Very prestigious. RS: So he had a shirt and tie job and, you know, again things were just improving. That was – I finished high school in 1969, so he had a salaried job. So I used to look at my brother and sister and say, “Hey, its great here. Its more money.”. AB: Do you think he started that job right out of high school? RS: I know he did because his father worked there. My grandfather was a janitor there and he got my father AB: Helped him get the job. RS: My father went in the service – got drafted during WWII and he got out of the army, I guess, in 1946. He was gone 3 years. AB: Came on back home. RS: He came right on back. AB: And started working there. RS: Yep. AB: That's interesting. I'm not from here but my mother's brother ended up here. RS: OK. AB: And my uncle, he worked in the old building all of his life so it would be funny, they probably knew each other and said, “Hello” and here we are today. RS: Everybody in those buildings knew my father. He was a big man. He had a lot of self-pride, a lot of dignity. In fact, people tell me my son - People that knew my father – my father was also a very good basketball player around here – and they'd tell me my son reminds them so much of my father because he's tall like my father was. He's 6'4” and he's built like - I mean he's got a lot of pride and carries himself a particular way. So all the old men see him and say, “I know that's Elmer Thomas' grandson. It can't be anybody else.”. Right? AB: Elmer? RS: Thomas. AB: That was your father's name? 9 �RS: That was my father's name, yeah. AB: Now how did you get your name of Shareef? Oh, because you became Muslim. RS: I accepted Islam in 1977. AB: So you changed RS: I changed my name then. AB: And what was your father's name? RS: Elmer Thomas. AB: Thomas. So that's how you grew up though was as Reginald Thomas. RS: Reginald Thomas. 0.34.59.1 AB: When did your father pass away? RS: In 1987. AB: That's right, you told me that. RS: My mother died suddenly in 1970. AB: Oh, so young. I'm sorry. RS: Right there in the library. She has an asthma – My mother had asthma. She had a real bad asthma attack. AB: Right here. RS: She left out of the library and they were trying to get her to the hospital and she died in her car. They didn't realize that the asthma attack was that bad. AB: That's horrible. RS: Mm mm. AB: So she was fairly young though. RS: 47. AB: Younger than me. That must've been really hard for you. RS: Its the only thing in life – I was telling my son yesterday – My father really trained us to be strong. He wasn't a man that tolerated any weakness whether it was physical weakness or emotional weakness. He didn't tolerate it. I had gone back to college for my 2nd year and my mother and I were extremely close and I spoke with her the night before she died and she and I were going to meet that weekend in Washington to see my sister. And so, I got a call about 4 o'clock the next day and when I picked up the phone – They said that there was an emergency call for me. I guess the dean came and got me and I picked the phone up and he said, “Reggie, I hate to tell you this but your mother just died.” And that's – He said – He had a friend in Petersburg and he said, “I'm going to have Mr. Heath come over and a bus leaves coming back to Roanoke at 6 o'clock.”. That's the way he did things. I mean, you just had to deal with it. And I cried all the way back for 5 hours, right? AB: All by yourself. RS: All by myself. And I often tell my children, “Look, if something happens to your mom, I'll come and get you. I won't do you quite like that.”. But that was the way he did things and I came home – And that was on a Wednesday night and she was buried Saturday and Sunday, I was back to school. And I just couldn't deal with it because she and I were so close so I called my grandmother's and I asked them if I could AB: So you still have both grandmothers? RS: At the time. AB: At the time. RS: Could I come back and live with them because he – You know, it was like, look AB: To come back here RS: To come back here just for one year. AB: You didn't want to come back to live with your dad. You wanted to 10 �RS: Well, I wanted to come back and live with him but AB: He knew RS: He wasn't going to hear of it. AB: You need to move on. RS: Yeah, “You were in school and you've got to go on.”. AB: I don't want to go on. (both laughing) RS: My grandmothers, they both prevailed on him so he said, “OK, well, he can come back but he's got to go to Virginia Western and before he leaves Petersburg, he's got to make sure that everything he takes at Virginia Western transfers back. And that's how I got back. And that year, I really needed to be around family. Its really the only thing in my life that has ever thrown me and so I tell Malique and Amira all the time – But actually, yesterday, Malique told me, he said, “You see, you're just like granddaddy.”. We were talking about something and I was telling him, “You just gotta fight through it.”. That's the way he delivered information and I guess for the past 20 years, I'm 55, so since I was about 35, I've been sorta like the patriarch of my extended family. And I'm telling you, when somebody dies, that's the way I deliver news and, you know, I don't know another way to do it. And everybody always comes back and says, “Well, you're just like your daddy.”. He would just, whatever it was AB: Simply say it, that's what my mother did, just say it. RS: Yeah, just gave it to you. He was a real strong guy. Wouldn't let you back down. You had to be a man. I call it Elmer Thomas' boot camp. He trained you to be a man. (both laughing) AB: We could all use that really. RS: I think also again, it was his experience being black. He knew that there would be times out here when you'd be disappointed but you just couldn't fold up. You just had to deal with it. I'm so thankful he did it. I'm so thankful he did it because it just gave me a lot of strength to deal with things that you and I deal with things now, right. AB: So you think he learned that from his father? RS: His father and his experience. AB: Did his father live in Gainsboro? 0.40.00.8 RS: He actually lived – My grandparents lived in Northeast what was Kimball. AB: Oh yeah. RS: Yeah, the Kimball, they lived there. AB: And that's now part of the Civic Center, that area? RS: That's right, exactly. AB: How did that effect you? Were you here to see that when all that was torn down? RS: Well, yeah, I remember when my AB: That was the '60s? RS: That was 1956 as well. My grandparents - Patton Avenue extended down into AB: All the way through. RS: Yeah. With the redevelopment, they moved and they moved on Orange Avenue. They were relocated to Orange Avenue. AB: Did the City do that or the Federal Government? RS: The Federal Government. AB: They relocated them. RS: Well, they came through and using “Eminent Domain”, they seized the property and so they bought a house in the 1200 block of Orange Avenue. In the same year, we moved on 13th Street Northwest which was like 5 minutes away. Again, if you look at the demographics of these moves, neighborhoods moved, people moved together. 11 �AB: Its hard to imagine 'cause I've known nothing like that. RS: I thought it was interesting but I do a lot of reading of an economist by the name of Thomas Sowell. He tracks migrations of people from country to country. And you'll find villages of people like Italians. When they moved to New York, the whole village moved. It gives you a sense of continuity and you know the people. He's tracked Jewish people who have moved. So it wasn't uncommon. You can look at people in upper Northwest now that moved in the late '60s and bought houses in the late '60s. Well, I knew those same people when they lived in Northeast and the whole community. AB: What was that like for you? What was that experience like? You were young then. RS: I didn't think a lot about it. I think I looked more at it from – That the houses and the quality of life for people were improving. It was only later that you began, that I began to understand the psychological and emotional ramifications of it. But when I was a young man, things were just better for people. Like you were saying, they were moving from frame houses, wood-framed houses to brick houses. They had central heat, air-conditioning. It was better. But, as I got older, I did a study. I had a grant from HUD in the early 1990s and I looked at the economic and social implications of redevelopment in Gainsboro and I looked at it more from a legal point of view the way the city was getting the property. I looked at Eminent Domain and how I thought Eminent Domain was being improperly used and Eminent Domain as an engine for economic development. Now when I did that type of research, then I could see how people were exploited. And then a few years ago, Professor Mindy Fullilove of Columbia, the world-renowned psychiatrist, she came in and we collaborated on some things because she looked at the emotional and psychological impact when people are forcibly moved. So now, I look at it in a different context. I can't deny that some of these neighborhoods weren't that great from a physical point of view. They were still communities. I testified – I was an expert witness in the Walter Claytor case. AB: Golly. Just recently, like a year ago or so. 0.43.55.7 RS: The way the City of Roanoke and Roanoke Redevelopment and Housing Authority misused Eminent Domain was terrible. You hear about the case out of Connecticut that the Supreme Court Everybody's upset about that but what happened to the Claytor Family was both illegal and unethical. And so I look at things like that now and see how government officials used the threat of Eminent Domain to get people's property to turn it over. Because the whole thing about Urban Renewal is that it is a partnership between the city and private developers. Private developers want the property. They don't want to pay market value for it so they collaborate with the city to use Eminent Domain. The city has the power under the 5th Amendment to condemn property for public use and then its sold to the developers so the city makes out. They enhance the tax base. The developers make it so that its only the people who are relocated who lose. So if you look at Gainsboro – I mean Kimball down there where the post office is and Magic City Ford and the Roanoke Gas Company, you can see this all across America. That is why people are so angry. In the Kelo case that the Supreme Court decided, the state of Connecticut just blatantly said that property can be seized for economic development. Just blatantly said it. And that was the whole argument. But as far back as 1966 when it was happening, primarily at that time to inner-city black neighborhoods, it was very obvious that it was nothing but economic development. And so, I mean, when you look at it from that point of view, it doesn't look that good and I think one of the best things I've ever done and God put me in the position to do was to be an expert witness in the Claytor Case. Because the Roanoke Redevelopment and Housing Authority thought they were wrong. They knew they were wrong. They hired the big law firm downtown, I can't think of the name now. Spending a lot of taxpayer dollars for a case that they knew that they couldn't win. So, it was very fulfilling for me for the Claytor family to win. Very, very fulfilling. Its like I stuck it in their eye and I was thankful to be in a position to do that. AB: Do you know what will happen with the building with the old medical building? 12 �RS: The Claytor Building? AB: Mm mm. RS: I don't know. AB: I know its not part of the interview, I was just curious. RS: I don't know. I've never heard Dr. Claytor say exactly what he's going to do with that. The building is in terrible condition. I don't know if it could even be rehabbed. I don't know. But, its a beautiful yellow brick and he's got a wonderful story about how that brick came in on the railroad and he and his brothers had to go down and – I'm not exactly sure how they transported it from the railroad, from the old freight station over here but they helped construct that building. AB: Oh, I didn't realize that. RS: Mm mm. Again, it was just – When you talk about entrepreneurialship and all these type things, these people really went through a lot to establish stuff. And I guess as I get older, I can understand why there's a lot of resentment when government entities come in and take it or close it or whatever. I'm probably more sensitive to that now than I was when I was younger. I guess the last 10 years have probably – I have a greater sensitivity for it because I have a better feel for what they put into creating these things. AB: That's now being taken away. RS: That's now being taken away and for me, its always the ethical thing of how its being taken away. I mean, and, some of the things that, again, the City of Roanoke and the Housing Authority did to get the property. Just unethical behavior. AB: When was that? That that happened, the city took that property? RS: Well, it started in the early – Well, in Gainsboro, it started in the early '70s and Kimball and Commonwealth was in the '50s. AB: Right. But I mean Dr. Claytor's RS: In the early '70s. AB: Early '70s. Now what happened with his house? Did that burn? RS: That burned. AB: And that was just an accident? RS: Well, AB: Was he living there at the time? RS: No, he wasn't living there but they rented it out. AB: That's right. But that must've been a big house up on that hill. RS: It was a big house. AB: Right over here. RS: Yeah, right across the street. It was a big house, yeah. AB: And who owns that property? RS: They still own that. They own that whole block. On the other side, there was an Esso Filling Station that they owned and the city was determined to get the property. They colluded with members of a local black church to get it. They promised the church – It all came out in the trial. I had heard it for years but that promised the church property over on Wells Avenue if they would support the city getting the property and in effect, turning the community against the Claytors. AB: Mmm! That's huge. RS: So when we talk about unethical behavior, yeah. AB: That was in the '70s. 0.49.44.8 RS: That was in the '70s. The Catholic Church wanted that property as well. So you had powerful interest vying for it and nobody really knew. It took 30 years and court subpoenas to uncover all the documents and all the city promised the church the Claytor Property and they didn't even own it. It 13 �was like, “When we get it, you'll have it for supporting us and saying that the Claytor's are only interested in protecting their wealth.”. So they turned people against one another. AB: Wow, that's pretty powerful. RS: Yeah. AB: The Claytors were well-respected. RS: Well-respected, yeah. AB: Community activists. RS: Well, yeah - I think that the Claytors and other black doctors here – I mean, they weren't middleclass/working-class people. They had a lot more resources. And I think that became a wedge issue in this. AB: Most people were working-class and they were more middle to upper-middle class so the city used that RS: Used that against – Yeah, when government officials would come in and they would say, “The Claytors aren't really thinking about you guys. They're already wealthy.”. Well, I mean, that was just a ruse to – Its called cooptation in public administration. You co-op people and you turn 'em against somebody. But the Claytors were always talking about was Eminent Domain. The improper use of Eminent Domain. Again, working-class people just didn't understand. AB: Sure. RS: So that's why when I had the HUD grant in the early 1990's and did this study about it, I was able to talk about these things and having some credibility in this community. It was like, OK, well maybe this really is what Walter Claytor's been saying all along. And this is 20 years after he began to say that, right. And it had some validity. AB: It would make a good movie. RS: Yes, a lot of things around here would make a great movie. You couldn't dream up this stuff. AB: No. RS: You couldn't dream it up. AB: Interesting. It kinda reminds me a little bit of the Coal Field Wars. RS: Sure. Yeah. AB: The working class against the powerful companies. 0.52.16.8 RS: Yeah. I think that theme goes on. In a class society, you are always going to have it. And the only protection that people have is knowledge and really in American society and understanding of the Constitution because its the Constitution that really protects the citizens. And I think that if you look at Dr. Martin Luther King, even if you look at groups like the Black Panther Party in the 1970's, they really talked a lot about the Constitution. The police using improper search, the 4th amendment violations and I think that's one of the things that, especially in the black community. Although I've always taught at white universities, or predominantly white universities, and I'm constantly when I'm teaching a course on public policy, I'm constantly hammering away to my students that they need to know their Constitutional rights. Because students ask me every day, “Dr. Shareef, the police stopped me. Was that Constitutional?” I say, “Well, if you knew your rights, you would know if it was Constitutional or not.”. So I think the Constitution is something that most American citizens don't value. For 15 years I've taught – I've been on a staff of a police training institute outside of Harrisonburg and every year I do a seminar on leadership and ethics and I tie the ethics around the Constitution, the 4th Amendment. The police officers and police administrators for 15 years have told me. “We get to search because the citizen doesn't know his or her 4th Amendment rights. And so if the police came in here today and asked and said they wanted to search, we all 3 of us have the right to refuse the search. Once you consent to the search, no matter what's found can be used against you. Now law enforcement will make you think, “Well, if you don't have anything to hide, you should let 14 �me search.”. And its crazy. And so it becomes that type thing that the citizens don't know their rights and then I think, more often, African-American people, because we don't' have a good understanding of the system, we don't trust the system even when we know our rights. And I think, again, that's one of the things that was really validated in the Walter Claytor Case is that he kept on about the 14th Amendment and due process and the 5th Amendment right of Eminent Domain on just compensation for your property. And he screamed it long enough and he won. It took a long time but he won. And I think that sort of validates the fact that you need to know your rights. 0.55.10.5 AB: Dr. Shareef, before we close, could you talk a little bit about your book that you've written here, “The Roanoke Valley's African-American Heritage, A Pictorial History”. RS: Well, I wrote this book almost 10 years ago. That was a dream or a vision of Melody Stovault (??). Melody Stovault (??) was the Director of the Harrison Museum at the time and she really wanted some type of historical book written. I'm not a historian. I have a PHD in Public Administration and Policy so I'm a policy and management guy. But she asked me would I be interested in doing that and she secured the funding for the book from First Union. AB: That's hard to do. That's an effort right there. RS: See, on the first page. (Pages flipping) Once they had the money AB: I wonder how she did the – why she chose them and why they did that. RS: I think she went around to a lot of organizations and, again, its good publicity for them to – It makes them a responsible corporate citizen and they put up the money for the book. After that, the only thing I wanted from Melody was just – I want to give you my proposal of how I want to do it but then just let me do it. That's the way I have to work. So, she agreed and I laid out the chapters, what I thought would be the appropriate chapters and she agreed and so, in many ways, its a pictorial history so the pictures in many ways drive the story. But once we got that done, it wasn't that difficult of a task to do. Its just the design, getting buy-in from people who had to support the project. So 10 years later, the book is still selling. AB: Its still available? RS: Its still available. They've got a book store up at the Harrison Museum and anytime I see somebody that's been in that bookstore or that works there, they tell me that they're still selling the book. AB: If I purchased one, could I contact you to sign it? RS: Most certainly. AB: I would like to do that. I am a historian by trade so I would like to do that. RS: Well it was really interesting and the book has been well-received. People look through the book and their history's there that everybody didn't know. Of course there are pictures and people see pictures of people they knew and so its been – It was a really good experience. It was a really good experience for me. Its something I hadn't done before and I was used to more academic writing, journal writing, this type thing. AB: This is much more fun. RS: A lot more fun. A lot more fun. A lot more interesting. It went well. AB: That's wonderful. So you can live on in many ways through your students and your books and your policies. RS: In many ways. Exactly. And every picture in that book, I placed except the cover. I'm somewhat of a vain guy. But even Reggie Shareef would not put his mother on the cover of a book I wrote. Somebody else selected that. They – A committee did that. AB: Did they know it was your mother? RS: They knew it was my mother but they AB: They knew that you would want that and she would want that. She would want that. 15 �RS: Well, she would and I think its very appropriate. That's the library at Harrison and, as you can see, my mother was a very attractive woman, and it fit. But that's the one picture I didn't select. I didn't select the cover. But, when I saw it, I was really pleased that they had done that. AB: Well, that's a great note for us to end on with your mother. I'm sure she's still very pleased with you. RS: I'm sure. AB: Thank you for your time Dr. Shareef, its been a pleasure. RS: Thank you so much, nice meeting you. 16 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2642/Shareef_Reginald_19_October_2006.jpg 8bb0ac1ea2a7afbe5ce7095343c82c74 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dr. Reginald Shareef Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dr. Reginald Shareef Interviewer: Anne Beckett Date: 19 October 2016 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 59:17 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reginald Shareef; Anne Beckett; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShareefReginald https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2641/Payne_Christine_10_January_2007.1.mp3 568b200df9924d567814754aa05f394e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2641/PayneChristine.pdf 4014fce8b42bf0b15817771afff2f6a1 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Christine Payne Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Andrew Sterling CL: We are here at the house of and home of Christine Evelyn Payne and we will be interviewing from her house at 116 Pinehurst in Salem, Virginia. OK Ms. Payne, Can you tell us when and where were you born? CP: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, on Hanover Avenue Northwest. CL: And do you remember what year? CP: 1926. CL: OK, thank you. Can you tell me about your parents, your mother and father? CP: My mother had a laundry on Park Street for several years and my father worked for – What was the name of that place? CL: Was it in Roanoke, Virginia? CP: Yes, it was in Roanoke. It was the silk mill. The silk mill for many years. CL: Did you have any brothers or sisters? CP: One brother and one sister. My brother Percy and my sister Arnitia (??), Elsie Arnitia Keeling. CL: Did you have any family living near by you when you lived in Roanoke? CP: For a short time, my grandmother lived there and then there were several uncles and aunts on my father's side who lived there. CL: Can you tell me your grandmother's name? CP: Zella Franklin. CL: Can you describe your home life? For instance, did you all gather around the front porch in the afternoons or did you listen to the radio? CP: We gathered around the piano. My mother played the piano and we all enjoyed singing and that was one of the main things that we did. I like singing. My dad liked singing and we enjoyed that. CL: What other kind of activities did you participate in? Did you go to church? CP: Oh, yes, church, yes. That was a must that we all went to church, particularly the children of the family must go to Sunday School and we did. We enjoyed that. My mother enjoyed that also. She taught Sunday School. CL: What family stories were passed on from generation to generation? When you all were around the piano and after singing, did you have a story or a particular recipe or something that you did from generation to generation? CP: Well, basically, my mother enjoyed playing the piano. My dad had a very good voice and he enjoyed singing and so did I and that was the main thing that we enjoyed music. That was one of the things that we did particularly on Sundays and also some weekends. CL: Did you talk about the Civil War or any part of slavery? CP: A little. My dad would talk about that at times and my mother would too and also my grandmother would tell us a little bit about that but not a great deal. CL: What are your fondest memories of childhood? What is the one thing that stands out right now if you were to tell me a story about your childhood? CP: I always loved to sing and I would stand in the living room and try playing the piano. I didn't play that well but I loved to sing and my brother would always come in and say, “What's wrong with you?” (laughing) But anyhow, that was lots of fun. I enjoyed singing. CL: What chores did you have to do around the house? CP: There were always chores. Particularly in the kitchen. You must wash the dishes and put them up and that was the main thing, and dust. Dust, make sure that the house was dusted. I did that. My sister and I enjoyed doing that. 1 �0.05.02.3 CL: Describe your house for us. For example, was it a brick house or did you have a single story house or did you have a garden that you had to attend to or your parents? CP: It was a single story house but someone always had to be the person to dust the house and I was some how or other that one along with my sister. We would make certain that the house was welldusted. Then, my sister played the piano nicely and we would start singing and enjoying ourselves after we got some of the dust out. CL: Did you have indoor plumbing or outdoor bathrooms or can you remember? CP: Yeah, I remember when we didn't have indoor plumbing but later on, we did have that indoor plumbing. We really had both. CL: How long did you live in the Gainsboro area? CP: Hmmm. Oh, golly. I probably left there when I went to college. CL: And what street was that? CP: Hanover Avenue. CL: How has the Gainsboro area changed? CP: I think it looks better now. We probably don't have the same caliber of person living in that area. So it seems to be alright at this point. CL: When you grew up, did you have doctors, lawyers, teachers, preachers, anyone in the neighborhood that you lived in? CP: Hmmm. I would say maybe a preacher or two not really in my neighborhood but somewhere near that. I can't think of any teachers. There might've been one or two teachers. CL: Did anyone in the neighborhood own their own business? CP: Yeah, my mother. My mother had the laundry service. She and another lady, Mrs. Davis, Maude (??) Davis, the two of them had the laundry service on Park Street, just below – What is that church on the corner? CL: St. Pauls? CP: St Pauls. Mother and Maude Davis had that and for a long time they had that and it was good. They enjoyed it and I think they both sort of, after so many years, they got tired and they come home and closed it. CL: Were there any grocery stores in your neighborhood? CP: There might've been one on the corner. I think so. CL: Could you all walk to these stores? CP: I think so. I think there was one not far from St. Pauls Church. I think there was one in that area. CL: Tell us about your schools before you went to college. Which elementary school did you attend and high school and - ? CP: Harrison, Harrison, Harrison. I think that's where I started school at Harrison on Harrison Avenue. What was my teacher's name? I can see her face. She lived in the Northeast section and she was just about that high. CL: Lucy Turrell (??)? CP: Lucy Turrell (??). She was one of my teachers. CL: Where did you go to high school? CP: Addison, Lucy Addison. Yeah. CL: Do you remember seeing Mrs. Addison's picture hanging in the - ? CP: Yes. CL: She was a principal before then. CP: Mm mm. Oh, yeah. She might've been there for a short time maybe while I was there but I'm not really sure. CL: Where did you attend college? 2 �0.09.42.0 CP: Where did I go to school? Winston-Salem State University was one. Winston-Salem and Penn State. I got my Master's from Penn State and I graduated from Winston-Salem State with a NC, a BA and I graduated from Penn State with a Master's of Education. A certificate from Virginia Tech for something and I worked there as an English and Social Studies teacher in Roanoke County, Bent Mountain and Roanoke City. The only thing about that, I'm not a good rider. I get sick easily in a car and that's why I learned to drive because if I was driving then I didn't get sick. But to get in that car and go from Bent Mountain, oh, that was terrible. But after learning how to drive, I could do that and I felt better. CL: Let me go back to elementary school. Were you all ever allowed to stay away from school because of the snow or the rain or different things? When you walked to school, were you ever allowed to stay home a day? CP: It had to be a very, very heavy snow for us to stay at home, otherwise my daddy would make a path for us from Hanover Avenue down across Orange Avenue and then maybe up that hill but he would make sure that we could get to school. (chuckling) CL: Did other members of your family attend college, your sister and brother? CP: Oh, yeah. My sister went to – I've forgotten but she went to college. CL: And your brother Percy was the Director of the Y? CP: Yeah. He was at the Y. My sister went way up. I forgot the name of it. It should be in here. CL: That's OK. CP: I don't see it at the moment. Fisk University! That's right. CL: Tell us what kind of work you did throughout your life. CP: Well, for the most part, I taught school. (laughing) I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it very much both at Booker T. and Addison and I graduated from Winston-Salem a teacher's college and also Penn State is where I got my Master's so I enjoyed that. CL: Did you teach at Virginia Western Community College? CP: Yeah. I did. I forgot that. Yeah, I did. I taught there. CL: For many years. CP: How many years did I teach there? I graduated from Winston-Salem but I taught someplace – Oh, 15 years! Approximately 15 years. Reading, English and then I retired. I worked there as an instructor for Virginia Western Community College for probably 15 years. CL: Roanoke cityCP: Roanoke – Did I teach there that long? 30 years? CL: That's what he says. CP: OK, then probably so. CL: What kind of businesses or shops did you frequent when you were growing up? Did you go into town to any of the stores that were there or did your parents purchase your clothes elsewhere? CP: I guess it was both ways. My mother was usually with me and I was always the one that they needed to help me to find something. I needed somebody was with me until I finally found out that I could choose something for myself. She would go with me and I think she enjoyed it and I enjoyed having her with me. CL: Do you remember any of the stores? CP: Heironimus was one and – which is closed now isn't it? CL: Mm mm. CP: And there was the Pugh's. I can't think of – There must've been something else – Oh, Lazarus. CL: ______ Childrens. CP: That's where she used to get my shoes. That's about it. CL: Do you remember the closing of the silk mill or do you remember - ? 3 �CP: Yeah, my dad worked there. (laughing) I remember when it closed. I can't remember the year and how long he worked there. He worked there a long time and then, all of a sudden, it closed. 0.15.03.7 CL: How did that effect the community? CP: To a certain extent, I suppose, it did affect 'em because it was looking for a job then and looking “Now, I gotta take care of my family. What am I going to do?” and so that was the kind of thing that – And then I'm trying to thing what did daddy do after the mill closed. He found some kind of job. I've forgotten at the moment but I'm sure he did because he had 3 children and I could see him sitting in the corner with figures, trying to figure out how much is he gonna make this month or this week or whatever. To help his family. CL: What other kind of jobs did African-Americans have at that time? CP: Most of them worked in homes. They were – I'm saying that but I know a few people that worked in homes and that's what they wanted to do is to be the caretaker for little kids and their homes and whatever. CL: What about the males? The railroad? CP: Oh yeah. N&W. That's right, N&W. I forgot that. A great number of them worked at N&W. _____ at Burrell Hospital who worked there. A few black doctors and nurses, yeah. Unknown: Teachers, beauticians, barbers CP: Yeah, lots of barbers. A lot of black teachers and they were needed. A lot of 'em but I can't remember how many now but there were a great number of black teachers there, men and women. CL: What memories do you have of the Gainsboro Library and Mrs. Virginia Y. Lee? CP: I enjoyed going there. In fact, I enjoyed getting a book out and reading most of it before I even left the library. I enjoyed it with Mrs. Lee and somebody else used to work there, right? (chuckling) And they enjoyed it also, right? Good, good. How is it going now, OK? CL: Wonderful. CP: I'm glad. Good, good, good. I thought perhaps it was doing well and it has. CL: Do you remember the Dumas Hotel or any of the entertainment that came? CP: Why don't you tell about the Dumas Hotel and what's happening to them now? Unknown: I don't really remember anything but I just know the history. CL: They had performers to come in and Henry Street was really jumping at that time. CP: Yeah. Unknown: Because when you had entertainers to come in, they couldn't stay at the Hotel Roanoke so that would be the only place they could stay was at the Dumas. Then they had a little restaurant. We would go to the movie, to the Virginia Theater and there was a little ice cream parlor and the Barlow family owned that. CP: Yeah. I'd forgotten that. Unknown: It used to be a lively place at one time. People that I know would come from other places to stay. CL: Who were some of the strong community leaders at that time? CP: Hmmm. CL: Teachers or CP: Yeah, teachers but I was trying to think of someone else. My mom and her friend that had the laundromat. And it was good business for them. Who else in that area? And I guess when you think about that, there were so many people from the various churches who did a great deal for the area and in particular ____ where they lived. There was always something that they would do for you. That was good. Let me see, who else? Oh, the Y. My brother worked there for a long time and he enjoyed that. CL: When you were sitting on the front porch and kids would come by and if they were doing 4 �anything other than good, would you correct them? Would your parents correct them? 0.20.06.9 CP: Oh yeah, oh yeah. All the time. Absolutely. In fact, you almost knew not to do anything. Don't you dare do that. We were pretty good children I would say, my family, the 3 of us. Even though my brother and I used to get into it sometimes. (laughing) But we were good kids. CL: How was life affected by segregation, the Civil Rights movement? CP: I guess that we were in some ways and in other ways we were not because this was something that we were gonna have to take care of families. We were going to have to have a house to live in and so we didn't always feel that this was something that we had to go to them to help us do. We could do this ourselves. CL: And still maintain your life. CP: Right. CL: Did you or anyone in your family go into the military during that time? Participate in any wars or -? CP: Hmmmm. My father didn't. My grandfather didn't. There might've been some relative down the line or somebody who went but I can't think of them now. CL: Is there anything else you would like to tell us about growing up in the Gainsboro area that we have not asked questions about? One of your memories, one of your fondest memories of - ? CP: Well, I always enjoyed going to the library and reading. I always liked reading and I didn't go that often but when I went, I enjoyed it. That's the one thing I enjoyed. CL: And singing and playing the piano. CP: Yeah, I enjoyed singing. CL: Did you play at a church? CP: I didn't play, no, but my sister was the one who was the one who played. I could play a little bit but I sang better than I played. (laughing) CL: Did you sing at any churches in the area? CP: I sang at a lot of the churches around. I didn't mind doing that. I enjoyed doing that really. That was about it. CL: Did you have a favorite song? CP: I don't know. I think I had many favorite songs and I would sing sometimes without mother's playing and my brother Percy would come in and say, “Girl, why don't you shut up.”. (laughing) But I enjoyed singing. I still do. CL: You wouldn't want to sing a song for us would you? CP: Oh, not today. Another day. CL: What about 2 or 3 of one little short CP: I don't even know what. CL: Anything you'd like to sing. One of your favorites. CP: -Singing- (in an operatic-style voice) “Lord is my light And my salvation Whom then shall I fear Whom then shall I fear The Lord is a strength of my life The Lord is a strength of my life Of whom then shall I feel afraid” Applause CL: That is so beautiful. CP: I'd forgotten. No, it wasn't. 5 �CL: CP: CL: CP: It was beautiful. Make me cry. Make me cry. Christine, that was beautiful. Unless you want to do another one? No. (laughing) 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Christine Payne Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Christine Payne Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 10 January 2007 Location: Private residence of Christine Payne Total Duration: 25:13 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10 January 2007 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Payne; Carla Lewis; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PayneChristine https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2640/Ernell_Glasby.1.mp3 1426d43207231004798b5c1271756ebc https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2640/GlasbyErnell.pdf 2d75cbcc369f8b50a46a68b45f41efca PDF Text Text �������� https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2640/Glasby_Ernell_30_October_2006.JPG 91d811538cd8ba668db6d3d8d26c03c2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ernell Glasby Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ernell Glasby Interviewer: Hazel Law Date: 6 November 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 31:22 Transcription prepaperd by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6 November 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ernell Glasby; Hazel Law; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GlasbyErnell https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2639/Keeling_Beverly.1.mp3 4c7a71ca9f9e40994dd252336a07f603 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2639/KeelingBeverly.pdf 0d27100fa8e64ac86b3c2b05b747fd19 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Beverly Keeling Interviewer: Arlene Ollie Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is October 19, 2006. We are located at the Gainsboro Library. AO: How are you today? BK: Fine. Very well. AO: Would you tell me when and where you were born? BK: I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, October 6, 1945. AO: How long have you lived in the Gainsboro area? BK: I've lived in the Gainsboro area 17 years. AO: What streets have you lived on? BK: I've lived on Harrison Avenue for 17 years. AO: Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. BK: I have 1 sister, 2 older brothers, my mother and father. AO: Are you the youngest? BK: No. I'm not the youngest. AO: Who's the youngest? BK: My sister's the youngest. AO: Did you have any extended family living nearby? BK: Yes. We had aunts, uncles, cousins living in the immediate area. Same street, different house. AO: Would you describe your house for us. For instance, was it brick? Did you have a garden? Was it an apartment? BK: Our house was a 6 room, wood frame. We had a flower garden. Most people on the other side of the street had fish ponds. So we had a flower garden as opposed to a fish pond because our side had less sunlight. AO: What kind of activities did you participate in? BK: Growing up in Harrison, I participated in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Catholic Youth Organizations. School activities – Choir, private piano. Those were the basic activities. AO: What kind of work did your family do? BK: My father worked at the American Viscose. My mother worked at the First National Bank. AO: For the sake of the interview, would you tell us what American Viscose was? BK: The American Viscose was the silk mill. AO: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? BK: I was a teacher from the time I graduated from college until the time I retired. AO: Would you talk about your school life. For instance, where did you attend school? Did you walk? Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? BK: I attended 6 years at Harrison School, 2 years at Booker T. Washington Junior High School, 4 years at Addison High School. We walked to school everyday and we walked home. We could not stay at home, we had to go to school. AO: You already stated that you completed college and your teaching. Where did you go to college? BK: I first went to Bluefield State. I got a Bachelor's there. I next went to Radford and I got a Master's in Music there. Next, I went to Hollins University and I got a Master's there. I went to the University of Virginia for 2 years and I got my cags (??). AO: Describe your home life. For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening? Do you remember when you got a telephone or refrigerator, along those lines? BK: I can always remember a telephone. I can remember listening to the radio, listening to stories on 1 �the radio and listening to music on the radio. I remember when my father purchased a TV. AO: And when was that? BK: Oh, that was in the '50s and I remember they were very expensive because he put the price on the TV so we could see it and remind us of it. AO: Did you sit on the porch in the evening? 0.05.00.1 BK: Every afternoon everybody sat on the porch. AO: Did you have chores to do around the house or neighborhood? BK: Everybody had chores to do around the house and around the neighborhood. You had to help out relatives and other people in the neighborhood. AO: What were the family stories that were passed down from one generation to another? For instance, did your family have stories about memories of the Civil War or about slavery? Did they have a kind of family recipe that's been passed through generations? BK: My great-grandparents were excellent cooks and it was passed down to their children and it stopped with me. I didn't – I watched them so much that I could make the things myself but after going to high school, going to college, not having any contact, I forgot it all. AO: They weren't written? BK: No. We didn't write anything. They told you how to do it and that's how it was done. They didn't measure things. They knew exactly how much went in there. My grandmother talked about slavery when I was maybe in the 3rd grade because I didn't know what it was. And my teacher asked me to ask my parents about slavery and I asked my grandmother. She told me about slavery. AO: Do you remember any particular incidents or descriptions that she gave you? BK: Her life was quite different. Her mother's life was different. After the Emancipation Proclamation, her mother owned property. It was passed down through the generations. Their life in slavery was not – They didn't experience a harsh life as slaves. AO: Were they enslaved in Roanoke? BK: No. Franklin County. AO: Did you, a spouse, sibling or children serve in the military? If yes, what wars? BK: No, I did not. AO: What businesses or shops did your family frequent? BK: In the Gainsboro area? AO: Mm mm. BK: Martin's Fish Market every Friday. There were many neighborhood stores. We frequented those. Downtown, there was an A&P store and fresh foods available at the market. AO: What is your fondest childhood memory? For example, a favorite holiday event, family vacation or favorite gift you received? BK: As children growing up, as neighborhood children, we had to entertain ourselves. So we made drums. We made drum major hats. We had our own band. AO: What are your memories of the Gainsboro Library and Mrs. Virginia Y. Lee? BK: I had to come to the library to do a report and the library, of course, had the materials and the encyclopedias. I remember Mrs. Lee as being very stern, very strict. The library was a very quiet place. There was no talking in the library. I remember her being very strict. AO: Describe any cultural events that happened in Gainsboro. For example, do you remember entertainers that came to the Dumas? Do you remember any performances? How many people attended? What time of year it was and where they were held? And if they were entertainers, where did they stay? BK: The entertainers who came to Roanoke during my childhood stayed at my uncle's motel in Salem. 0.10.06.5 2 �AO: What was the name of that? BK: The name of it was the Pine Oak Inn or they stayed at the Carvin Tourist Home. AO: Where was that located? BK: That was located on Gilmer Avenue across from the Lawson Building. And, of course, the Dumas Hotel. When the Dumas could not accommodate all of them, they would send them to Carvin's Home and when he was full, he would refer them to Salem at the Pine Oak Inn. AO: Do you remember any specific performances or entertainer that you've remember throughout the years? BK: I remember Mahalia Jackson coming to Roanoke to give a concert. The concert was in the Crossroads Shopping Mall. I think there were over 1,000 people in attendance. AO: Do you remember what year about? BK: Late 1950s or early '60s. AO: Who were some of the strong community leaders and what role did they play? BK: There were many leaders in the neighborhood and great role models in the school, of course, teachers. There was a Black Businessmen's Association. They had an essay contest every year in the junior high schools and I tried for 3 years but I never won it but I was always fond of them. AO: That was the Businessmen's Association? BK: The Black Businessmen's Association. AO: Who were your role models? BK: My parents first. Community-wise, Dr. Burton, Mr. Abraham Smith, the late Miss Alta Lee (??) Thompson. (unintelligible) AO: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? BK: The neighborhood has changed over the years basically because most of the people who lived in the neighborhood are now deceased and the families have moved into other sections or other cities and states as the case may be. But, during my childhood, the families lived in the same block or the same area and they did not move. I have relatives now who live in the same house they occupied since 1899. AO: That's great. Here in Roanoke? BK: Yes. AO: That's fantastic. Maybe I can get them down for an interview. How was your life affected by segregation and the Civil Rights Movement? BK: As a child, I wasn't aware of segregation. I knew that white kids went to one school and we went to another but I didn't know why. I noticed that black people went to the First Baptist Church and all but 2 black people went to St. Andrew's. As a child, I never could understand why all blacks went to one church and all whites went to another. AO: Did the Civil Rights Movement have any major effect? BK: The Civil Rights Movement was viewed by TV – Roanoke did not experience as much as a demonstration and so forth. That happened in other cities. We sort of watched it from TV or picked up the newspaper. We were aware of what was going on but it didn't happen here. AO: Do you have any memories about urban renewal? Or did it affect your life? 0.15.00.3 BK: Urban renewal did more than moving houses, it moved families. It scattered them everywhere. Growing up in my area, most families lived in the neighborhood or very close, 2 or 3 streets over. They weren't scattered like they are now. AO: I know this but I'm gonna ask you this question anyway, do you remember the closing of the silk mills? BK: Yes. AO: Do you have an opinion or idea of the effect it had on your community? BK: Everybody that I knew worked at the silk mill. My father, all of his brothers, my grandfather, all 3 �of his brothers. I had one uncle that worked at N&W. He was the exception. But every uncle, every relative worked at the silk mill. AO: It did have an effect on your family. BK: Yes. AO: How did they deal with it? BK: My father took a lot of pride working at the silk mill and he took pride in his work. After that silk mill closed, I noticed a change in him. Some of my uncles went to Los Angeles, California. Some aunts went to Connecticut. Some went to Detroit in order to work and send money back here. The silk mill had a drastic effect on many people. AO: What did your father do there? BK: I never knew exactly what he did. He did something with cleaning the machines or checking the maintenance of the machines. But he always said that the silk mill closed because they were not willing to change. Materials changed from silk to other things but the silk mill didn't make that change to other things. They closed. AO: They didn't make the product that they were used to making like synthetics. BK: Yes. AO: What jobs were available for African-Americans? BK: After American Viscose closed? AO: Well, I'm gonna say before and after that you were aware of in your community. BK: Jobs available to blacks? AO: Mm mm. BK: If they were fortunate enough to go to college, teachers, doctors, lawyers. Most black women did domestic work and the men did any kind of job they could find and I do mean any. AO: Did the people within the Gainsboro Community own their own businesses? BK: Oh yes. There were many businesses in the Gainsboro area, many. AO: Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to share with us? BK: No. That's quite comprehensive. AO: Thank you so much for your participation. BK: Thank you. AO: And I really appreciate your time and I hope that you'll come back and listen to yourself. BK: Thank you. 4 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2639/Keeling_Beverly_19_Oct_2006.jpg 3866d55f2515b491cbbd320bb0f14975 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with James Beverly Keeling Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with James Beverly Keeling Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 19 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 19:06 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James Beverly Keeling; Arleen Ollie; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KeelingBeverly https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2638/Holland_Alphonzo_[compressed].mp3 9940cb5dbc384a1e14f04bd787805d67 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2638/Holland.Alphonzo.pdf e68d285b32ceb976c60c4ce52bdcb4f5 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Alphonzo Holland, Sr. Interviewer: Arlene Ollie Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is October 19, 2006. We are located at the Gainsboro Library. AO: How are you this morning? AH: Quite well. How are you? AO: Just fine. Our first background question is when and where were you born? AH: Roanoke, Virginia. December 27, 1916. AO: How long have you lived in Gainsboro? AH: Gainsboro/Northwest section? AO: Mm mm. AH: Roughly off and on all of my life. The only time I spent out of here was when I was in the military. I went in the military in 1943 and returned in 1946. All the other time, I've been in Roanoke. AO: What streets have you lived on? AH: Madison Avenue, 8th Street, Staunton Avenue, Grayson Avenue and now on Kershaw Road, Northwest. AO: Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. AH: My mother and father – My father was Gus Holland and my mother was Doris Saunders Holland. It was 10 of us children, 6 boys and 4 girls. We had a very, very strong life. We were very, very close. We were members of High Street Baptist Church for quite a few years. My father was a member there. We all went to High Street Baptist Church and so my mother and father passed on and all my brothers and sisters are gone and I'm the only one left out of the 10. AO: What was your relationship? Youngest, oldest, middle? AH: Number 4. AO: From the top? AH: Number 4 down. Mm mm. AO: Did you have extended family living nearby? AH: Yes, I had a brother – When my oldest brother got married, he lived on Rutheford Avenue and he moved over on 8th Avenue – He ran a grocery store on __________ a number of years and he moved up on 8th Avenue in the short part of Gainsboro area. So he's gone on to glory also. AO: What about aunts and uncles? AH: They're all gone. See, I'm a young man. I've outlived all the rest of 'em. (laughing) AO: I'm just curious. Did you have that kind of family support when you were growing up? Did you have aunts and uncles here? AH: Yes, yes, yes. My Aunt Martha lived over on, they called it Lynchburg Road then, its on Orange Avenue now. But it was called Lynchburg Road. I had an aunt that lived over there. So we used to go over to her house and play around and you'd come back home. AO: Was that on your father's side? AH: My mother's side. AO: Would you describe your house for us, the one that you grew up in? For instance, was it brick? Did it have a garden? AH: No, it wasn't brick. It was a weatherboard house and it was over on 8th Avenue there. We called it 8th Avenue then. Its Madison now. And the house is still standing. When my father passed on, my brother Theodore took over the house. When he passed on, he left it to his daughter. His daughter is living in the house that they built up on short Madison here. And the house is still standing and they're renovating it now so somebody's doing it. I know Barbara sold it to somebody. So they're renovating it 1 �now but it still stands. It was a 5 room house and when we bought it, when my mother and father went into it, it didn't have a furnace in it. It didn't have a basement in it. It was just a straight house just the way that they built them at the time but we all grew up in that and it was a lovely family. 'Cause the girls had to share a room and the boys shared a room. We were very close. AO: Did you have a garden? AH: Yes, we had a garden next door. My father bought a lot next door and so that was the way we supplemented the family groceries. He would get it plowed up and then he'd plant corn, beans, tomatoes and so forth. During the summer, he'd give each one of us boys a jar and we'd have to go over there and knock the bugs off the beans into the jar. And when he'd come in from work – He was a blacksmith up on the railroad there – He'd come in and he'd want to see that jar, see how many bugs we'd knocked off the beans so. (chuckling) 0.05.27.8 AO: That way you could tell who'd been working and who hadn't. AH: Mm mm. AO: As a child, what kind of activities did you participate in? AH: Well, as a child, we shot marbles and spinned tops, spinning tops you know. Played a little baseball around in the yard there. Then as we came into school activities - played baseball. And as I got a little older, Mr. Lee come into Roanoke as the first YMCA we had over on Wells Avenue. If you go over there now, there's a plaque right down in the sidewalk stating that that was the first YMCA for Negros. So he would have marble tournaments at each one of the schools, Gainsboro, Harrison. At the two schools there. We had many days of activities on the schoolyard. AO: You said Mr. Lee. Do you remember his first name? AH: L.A. Lee. He was the Executive Director of the first YMCA we had here. AO: What kind of work did your family do? AH: My dad was a railroad man. He was a blacksmith on the railroad. AO: Did your mother work? AH: No, she stayed mostly at home. AO: Tell me some more about your school life. Did you walk? AH: Oh, yes. I first went to school at Harrison Elementary School there where – The Harrison Museum is there now. That is where I started school. I started school in 1922 and my birthday was in December so school started in September and so I went in school at 5 years old and so I often tell people, I went to school in 1922 and they made Harrison a high school in 1923. So, I went to high school at 6 years old. AO: (Chuckling) Where'd you go after Harrison? AH: Addison School. I came out in '33 and went down to Hampton Institute. Its a University now but it was an institute then. I went down there on a basketball scholarship. I stayed down there 18 months and so things were a little tight in the '30s so I came out and went to work at People's Drug Store. And then soon after that, I got a job on the railroad as a janitor and then in '43, the draft got me. I had married by that time. I had 2 children and I went in in 1943. So I stayed in the military 'til 1946, came back and went to the freight station on the railroad. And when Korea broke out, which it looks like Korea is trying to raise sand again, and I went home that day. I didn't have an automobile. I walked to work all the time. My wife said, “There's a letter here from the War Department for you.”. I said, “The War Department? What are they writing me for?”. I was curious. Then I looked at it and they told me, “You are to report to Fort Gordon, Georgia, in the next 14 days.”. So, I had to go back into the military. My MOS was basic combat training. So I went down there and I stayed 18 months down in Fort Gordon, Georgia and when Korea started simmering down a little, then they allowed me to come away from the military to come back and work on the railroad. So I said, “If my MOS was that critical, they would've called me.”. So I joined the AS (??) Division here in Roanoke. I stayed with the AS (??) 2 �Division altogether in the military for 33 years. I retired in 1976. I was a Master Sargent. 0.10.03.1 AO: For clarity, what is MOS? AH: Military Occupation Specialist. AO: Could you tell us a little more about your home life? For instance, did you gather around the radio in the evening? Do you remember when you got a phone or a refrigerator, all that? AH: Well, startin' there, there wasn't any radio at that particular time. You got the newspaper. Then we finally got a radio back in maybe '29 or '30, something like that. We'd listen to the radio. And so, a Frigidaire, no, we had a refrigerator – Ice – The ice man would come down and we'd buy ice off the wagon, most of the time horse-drawn. And the refrigerator we'd put ice in there, put the food in there. So that was the life. Momma did most of the canning. Most people don't can anymore. The supplest food that we had over in the garden, she would can that. Canned tomatoes, canned beans, canned corn. So when winter come around, you can always open up something and start a meal. AO: Instead of going to the grocery store and getting it off the shelf. AH: Mm mm. AO: Did you sit on the porch in the evenings? AH: Oh, yes. Played in the yard. See, every house, you'll notice the old houses have a front porch to it. And people would sit on the front porch in the evenings because there wasn't any air conditioning. And we'd keep the house open at night. Let the house cool down. And you'd be out in the street playing and everybody sittin' on the porch saying, “Now where you going boy?”. You didn't give them any question or answer, you'd just get back in the yard. One thing poppa would always say, “When that light come on down on the corner, I want you in the yard, not coming in the yard, I want you in the yard.”. You obeyed your parents. Now, sometimes I see some of these kids where they're out without a parent, I couldn't – My parents wouldn't have stood for that. AO: Do you do any chores around the house or the neighborhood other than the gardening? AH: At that time, practically everybody had chickens in their yard and you had to clean the hen house out. Make sure the yard was swept. There's wasn't any grass in the backyard 'cause the chickens were back there. You'd have to sweep that yard and keep it swept up and so on. And it was going to be done. Wasn't no ifs, ands about it. AO: Did you have any stories that were passed down from generation to generation? AH: Oh yes. We used – That's what we used to do in the evening mostly in the wintertime. We'd sit around the stove and momma and poppa would tell us both their activities when they were boys and girls. They came out of Franklin County over there. They would tell – My mother's granddaddy was a Cherokee Indian and he lived over there in Franklin. And one incident, see by my daddy working on the railroad, would take us over and visit her momma over in Franklin and get off the train, go down by the railroad and go up there. This one particular time, I guess I was about 6 years old, maybe 5 or 6, going down there. I heard him come down off that hill over there, making that Indian sound, whooping and hollering. And I said, “Momma, who's that old crazy man coming down across the hill hollering?”. She snatched me up. My feet didn't touch the ground until I got down to grandma's. She said, “That's my granddaddy boy.”. I learned that in a hurry, you know. AO: Do you remember his name? AH: Fred Hurt (??) That was his name. And he had over there right where Ferrum College is now, he had the majority of that bottom land down there that he owned all of that. All of his children, as far as I can remember, I heard momma talking about it, he gave 'em so much land each time they married. So they had a stake in the elements see. I think it was about 75 acres over there that my cousin has that's broken down. She has that over there that was given to her out of that. As I started to say about sitting around talking, what we were doing, so my granddaddy, Jessie Saunders, that's my momma's daddy, he'd come over and sit around and he'd tell us about – See, he was old enough to know something about 3 �the Civil War. So he said. I don't know. He said that General Lee and General Grant were brother-inlaws and so he sat there and talked and said Grant would tell Lee, he'd say, “Lee, you better surrender.”. “No, I'm not going to surrender General Grant.”. He said, “I'm coming tomorrow and I'm gonna swallow your whole army up.”. I don't know whether he was making it up. But we listened to it. But he was old enough to know about the surrender of General Lee and General Grant. 0.15.53.7 AO: That's interesting. Did you have any family recipes that have been passed down through the generations. AH: Just cook a pot of beans and go on and eat 'em. You never was hungry. I never shall forget one day, I came in from high school and I said, “Momma, what we got” - We didn't say dinner then - “What we got for supper?”. She said, “Turnips.”. I said, “I don't like turnips.”. She said, “You don't?”. “No, I don't like 'em.”. She said, “Have you eaten any?”. I said, “No.”. “Well, you don't know whether you like 'em or not.”. She said, “That's all that's here and you're gonna eat it.”. I ate 'em and liked 'em. AO: Learned to develop a taste for 'em. AH: Oh yeah. I cook 'em now and eat 'em. AO: What businesses or shops did your family go to? AH: Well, N.W. Pugh was one place right there at the corner of Campbell Avenue. Where Grand Piano was. And then MacVein's (??) was right across the street where Miller and Rhoads was. And then they had Gilmore was down below Jefferson Street. That was a dry goods store. Those were downtown but then the majority of things that you had were neighborhood groceries. And we had Pettisi's (??) Grocery store up there on 7th Street. Miss Basket had a store right there on 8th Avenue on the corner just where you go up to 6th Street to Burrell Hospital and we worked out the grocery stores. And then most of the time on Saturdays, momma would go to the market, walk up and down the market. We had to go with her to carry the shopping bags. Walk from one end of the market to the next. “How much your snaps, green beans?” She'd look at all of 'em. “I don't like these. I'm going somewhere else.”. 15 cents a gallon, not 15 cents a pound, 15 cents a gallon. You'd come back home and string 'em and cook them and potatoes, you'd get a gallon of those for about 25 cents. When you'd come out of the market, you had 2 bags and you spent about 8 dollars altogether. Had enough to feed you for the rest of the week. AO: What's your fondest childhood memory? AH: I believe momma went to town one day and she bought a little wagon, a little metal wagon, little black mules hooked to it. And I named him Rubin and I'd go out on the back porch and make me a road all the way and Rubin and I'd go up and down that little road I made up under the back porch in the dirt. What I can remember, I said, “I'm gonna bury Rubin so won't nobody else have him and nobody can get him.”. And I dug a little hole under there and Rubin disappears. “I don't know where Rubin went. I think the guy next door got Rubin. (laughing) I was playing next door. I believe he got Rubin. Anyway, Rubin disappeared and I've haven't seen Rubin since.”. AO: That's a shame. (laughing) AH: (laughing) AO: Did you go on vacation? AH: What kind of vacation back in those days, you ask me. (laughing) AO: Well, you talked about going to visit Franklin County. AH: That wasn't no vacation. That was routine going to Franklin County, running up and down the hills over there. And in the summertime, I'd go and stay with my granddaddy and fool around with him. He had a steer – Do you know what a steer is? - Its a bull that's been cut. So anyway, ole Ruff. He'd would plow with old Ruff. One day, it was hot and I'm just sitting around and old Ruff decided he wasn't going to work. So, my granddaddy was a very tall man, he walked around and hit old Ruff up the side of his head with his fist. Old Ruff (mooing sound). My grandmother was very sedate. “Jess, 4 �why do you treat that animal like that.”. He said, “If I feed him and he won't do what I say, I'll kill him.”. He looked at us and she went on back in the house. (laughing) 0.20.43.8 AO: When did you start coming to the library? Or did you? Was it here? AH: Across the street. Mrs. Lee. She was Miss Young at that time before she married Mr. Lee. Mr. Lee came to town, that's Mr. L.A. Lee was Executive Secretary. She was Virginia Lee. She lived up on Harrison Avenue then and the library was across the street. And we'd get assignments. They didn't have a library per se in the school at that time and they would assign a book or something you have to have. You'd come down to the library and if it wasn't in that library over there, she would have to get it for us. 'Cause we weren't allowed to go downtown to the library downtown. So she would get the book and bring it back over here and then we'd finish it and she'd carry it back downtown. So that was about '28 or '29, in that length of time. And so, we were – That was our library across there until 1942 when they built this library. The Catholic Church gave the land – First it was Shank's Foundry here on this corner. So when he went out of business, the Catholic Church gave this land, this spot of land, to the city to build a library for the Negros here. So this is contracted in the city even now that this land was dedicated or given to the city to build this library for the Negros. AO: Were there any strong community leaders that you remember during that time? AH: Sure. C. C. Williams was the undertaker. He had an undertaker's shop right there where surrender (??) is. We had Richard Burks. Abe Reynolds who was the President of the NAACP during that time. Mrs. Spencer who was a school teacher who was the Secretary in the NAACP. That was right down the street there. Right straight down Gainsboro. Dr. Dudley and the Downings were – There was Reverend Downing. His picture is on the wall out there. And all of his sons. There was E.D. & L.C. & Gardner (??). He had 3 boys. They were all doctors. Dr. Jeb E. Claytor across the street over there, Sr. Strong leaders. Reverend James was a strong leader. He got quite a few things accomplished in this neighborhood. But the main thing that they stressed, vote. At that time, in order to vote, you had to pay what you call a Capitation Tax. We called it a Poll Tax, $2.50. You voted at 21 years old. You didn't get to vote at 18 years. You had to be 21. And my daddy, each time we reached to get started getting or reached 20, he kept up with your birthday. “Boy, you're gonna be 21 years old at such and such a date now. If you don't have any money, I'll go down and help you pay your tax so you'll be ready to vote.”. And that time, we voted right where the Coca Cola plant is now. It was on Park Street there at Sicles (??) Store. You'd go in there and vote. You had a big can with a lock on it, a garbage can. You'd have your vote and stick it down in that can and you'd vote. I've been voting ever since. 0.25.00.1 AO: Who were your role models? AH: My daddy. AO: How has Gainsboro changed over the years? AH: Well, you can see that things have changed because the street wasn't this wide and the library was on that side and all the way down to Gilmer Avenue it was stores on this side. Gainsboro Pharmacy which the Claytor's ran. It was right across the street there. So clean on to the bridge, it was businesses. You had grocery stores. You had a theater there. Right where you call it the Morocco but that wasn't the Morocco, that was the Strand Theater. Old man Hickey Booley (??) built that in 1927. That was before – That's the time the pictures get their sound. Sound pictures came out in about 1927 and that was where we went to the movies. Go down there for a dime. We'd walk up and down the streets and pick up milk bottles, pop bottles and take 'em back to the store and get that 10 cents so we could go to the show on Saturday. It was a close knitted neighborhood and everybody had something to do with your upbringing. Very close. Right now, you don't know anybody that lives on the same avenue or street you're on. 5 �AO: Unfortunately, that's true. How was your life affected by segregation and the Civil Rights Movement? AH: How was it affected? AO: Mm mm. AH: Well, let me back up here a minute. Segregation at that time as we came through, it was a way of life. It was the law and we were classified as law-abiding citizens so we responded to the segregated movement. When we got buses, whites to the front, colored to the rear. We paid the 5 cents to sit in the back. Just like everybody else, we paid our way and we – In other words, that was the law. There wasn't any need to say wasn't going to do anything about it but we kept looking at it until we could do something about it. We didn't have any Negro policeman, didn't have any Negro firemen at that time. Those jobs weren't for us. When the city had the mule-drawn wagons, they collected ashes and garbage and things, we drove those mules. But when they went motorized, Negros couldn't drive the garbage trucks. They could throw the garbage cans up on the truck but the whites drove the trucks. It was still the law and we complied with that. So, when we went looking for a job, we didn't go looking for a job as a clerk. We either went looking for a job either as a janitor, window cleaner or something of that nature. You could be a bell-hop. We took that and went on. I doubt if my daddy made $20 a day by the time he retired in 1930. It was around 1931 or '32. But I never lived in a rented house. He never owned an automobile but we walked. The neighborhood was constructed that you could walk anywhere you wanted to go, downtown or anywhere. We made out that way. So then when the buses came in, we rode the bus. The bus went up 7 cents and we paid it and rode the bus, still to the back. But it was during my time as the Vice-President of the NAACP when we took down the signs. And we took 'em down without incident. The first one we went to was down at the Miller and Rhoads Tea Room. Dr. Law, Reverend Sampson, myself, R.R. Wilson, we went down and talked with the manager, asked about having a luncheon there and he said, “Sure.”. Sat down and we had lunch. So that was the first place we desegregated was the Miller and Rhoads Tea Room. And then we went straight down the street to Cresses, Woolworths, Miller McClellans, Grant. At that time, Cresses had a lunchroom in the basement but you couldn't eat there. They had white and colored water and both of 'em tasted the same 'cause I drank out of both of 'em. (laughing) Then the same _____ at that time, by you being so much older than I am, you don't know nothing about the passenger station was segregated, a rail between it. We took the rail out of the passenger station and – Reverend Sampson said – He was the minister at High Street Church at that time, he said, - Roanoke had what we called “Stand up integration”. As long as we stood up, we could go just about anywhere we wanted to go in this town. And then you had the Roanoke Theater at that time. We had a place up in the balcony and you could go up there and see the same picture. But I never went down there. We got the Virginia Theater. Mr. Williams, built the Virginia Theater into being right there across from High Street Church. And we saw the same pictures for 15 cents and we enjoyed it. We had a doctor's office, a dentist right down Hill Street. We made it and I always said that we had teachers that took cotton and made silk. We knew about Benjamin Banneker. We knew about Harriet Morgan. We knew about them because they taught us. I never shall forget it. When I was instructed in the military, when they were desegregating the Army, I was given a class and I had a young white, I was going up to Tech. I was breaking down the contributions that the minority contributions. And, he stood there and he looked and he said, “How do you know all of that?”. I said, “I was taught.”. I said, “You know, segregation is a funny animal. You were deprived too. See, you don't know about these contributions, the real McCoy of all those people. You were deprived of that. But we were taught that.”. See, I know about the contributions that Daniel Hale Williams made the first successful heart operation up there in Chicago and he later on founded a hospital there in Washington D.C. Benjamin Banneker, as I mentioned earlier, he was the grandson of Molly Walsh. She came over here as an indentured servant. She bought 2 slaves. She married one and freed the other one. Benjamin Banneker was a product of a black and white movement. But he was 6 �with Lafayette when he and George Washington were surveying Washington D.C. Lafayette took all the blue prints and went back to France and he laid Washington D.C. Out from memory and he invented the first clock. He made a wooden clock. I was saying this – This is kinda funny (chuckle) – I was telling them that Benjamin Banneker laid out Washington D.C. And one smart white guy said, “That's the reason you can't get out of Washington, a Negro laid it out.”. I said, “OK. You see how long you can run around that field for me out there and come back and tell me.” (laughing) As long as you can run around that field for a while. Its just been quite an experience coming – I'm glad that I lived this long that I can see all these changes. Gainsboro has changed and so you've got to – I was – One person was talking about Henry Street and they said, “I thought Henry Street didn't go any further than right down to the bottom of the bridge.”. I said, “You did? What about Jefferson Street. Henry Street runs the same way.”.Henry Street run all the way over to Maple Avenue. You had what's called 3rd Street which is Commerce Street now. No, 2nd Street is Commerce Street and you had 3rd Street which was called Roanoke Street. They changed the names I guess because they, when they put up signs for it, they didn't want to write Roanoke all the way across or Commonwealth so they made 'em 2nd, 3rd and 5th Street. I love this town and I don't think I'd want to live anywhere else. I've been to New York, Philadelphia, Chicago and I like this here. Been over to Australia, down into the Philippines and Japan. But Roanoke is my home. 0.36.03.3 AO: We've just about covered actually all the questions except one. Do you remember the closing of the silk mills. AH: Yes. I don't have quite an exact date but it was called Viscose and down there they had roughly around 2,000 or maybe 2,500 employees. They had a dormitory there right on 9th Street that the young girls that worked in the silk mill, in the silk spinning room, they had a place that they lived right beyond the – right there at the silk mill or at Viscose. And the employment house is still right there. A little house just as you go down, just before you drop over into going over into River Road. There's a little brick house sitting right down there. That's where the employment office was. I went there on several occasions looking for a job and I was working at the drug store down there at that time. That's before I got on the railroad. Mr. Webb (??) would come out, call so many to go. I'd walk down there and kept that 7 cents in my pocket so I could get back in case I didn't get hired, I could get back to the drug store in time for my -. ButI'm glad I didn't get the job because later on I got on the railroad and the railroad, N&W has been the family for this town because this was a railroad town. I think the closing of the silk mill completely closing was in the early or late '40s or early '50s when the silk mill closed. AO: I'm curious. Were there many blacks working there because you talked about the dormitories? AH: No, no, no, sweetheart. (Chuckling) That's wishful thinking. It was those white girls that lived in the dormitory and if they hired any Negro women, they were maids so they weren't up there. They were at home. And they worked a lot of Negros down in the silk mill. They worked on the yard and yardmen and they worked around in the building as janitors and so forth. It was a job. And they sent kids to school from down at the silk mill with their 35 and 40 cents an hour job. At that time, you could buy a loaf of bread for a nickel. As I said about your snaps and things, you give 'em 15 cents a gallon and so forth. I'm glad I came through it but I wouldn't want to go back through that again. You see, as Booker T. Washington said, “Lay down your buckets where you are. There's a wealth of salvation there.”. That's what he meant. You can go right out there in the middle of the street and start digging and if you dig deep enough, you'll strike water. There's always a place if you dig - I never shall forget I saw a professor down at Hampton he said, “Now look. I'm gonna tell you boys something. You don't want to walk around here and go out there in the community with a $20 hat on a 2 cents head. Get something in your head.”. 0.40.07.6 7 �AO: Ain't that the truth. AH: Its more so now than it was when I came along. If we decided to – I told somebody one day we were talking about drop-outs. I said, “We weren't geared to drop out of school because the teachers would make some concessions for you and even teach you at night. Even if sometimes the families' finances were so that some of the boys would come out of school and go to work doing something. But our dropouts could count and could read and write. I find that some of our students coming out of school now, they have a rough time filling out an application.”. I'm not critical of the SOL but I think they are pushing so much now for the SOL that they're not looking for the other SOL, Standard of Living. Standard of Living comes first. And I read an article in the paper about some teacher up in Chicago, or up in Indiana somewhere, it said that by pushing that SOL said some of the kids are missing geography and so forth. You can ask some of these kids in high school, “Where's the Pacific Ocean?”. They don't know. They don't teach Geography like they did. See, we had to know all of that. We had to know the capital. When we'd come down through there, we had to take that Geography every time you see a star, that's the capital of that state. We had to learn the capitals of the states. We had to learn our _____ numbers. We had to sing 'em to the teacher. Sing our times tables to her. You take a calculator away from some of these kids and they're lost. AO: That's true. AH: So I hope that we can – And they told us in the military, said, “If Private Joe don't learn, you have failed to teach. You got to teach him.”. SOL – I don't know. I'm not that much on educating or know what the SOL is really going to entail down the road, but I understand that they're pushing for to get that score but then sometimes they look like they're having problems. No child left behind, don't wanna be. I failed the 4th grade. But I made it up before I got out of high school. (laughing) I told my grand-kids. She's in the 4th grade, I said, “That's a tough grade. I failed the 4th grade.” “You failed?”. I said, “Yeah, but I made it up before I got out. You see the 4th and the 7th are two of the toughest grades you're gonna come through. If you get the 4th through the 12th grade you can get out of high school.”. (laughing) AO: I thought about the 7th but I have never given a lot of consideration to the 4th. AH: Yeah, its tough. That's when you start getting common denominators and so forth. AO: That interesting. Well, I truly appreciate your time and your interest. I am honored to have interviewed you. AH: I hope I said something. (laughing) AO: You did. You said a lot of things that I think are valuable not only for today but in the next 150 years, it will remain just as valuable. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do it. AH: Well, you see, we've got to take time to talk to our grandchildren and our great-grand kids and let them know that life hasn't always been like this. AO: Let 'em know what you expect. I guess I can say this. My thing is in order to get where you're going, you need to know where you came from. You need that inner strength of knowing what your ancestors did to give you some self-esteem, self-awareness that will help you through your difficult times when you realize the times that you have that are difficult today mean nothing to what happened to, say, 200 years ago. 0.44.54.9 AH: No, One thing I'm looking at right now and I'm not a minister but I am a Christian. Its a movement out there now to take this country away from us through our belief. You take, I believe it was 52 men who signed the Declaration of Independence. They weren't learned men but they were Christian men. And they founded on Christian principles. If you go and look at the breakdown of the Supreme Court Building. In that building, its etched on the wall, its the Ten Commandments right over where the Chief Justice sits is a bible and there are bible verses all the way up those stairs in there. I think there are about 12 stories I believe is correct. When kids came through, they'd quote some bible 8 �verse going up those steps. That didn't happen yesterday, that was way down there. But it bothers me a great deal when we got 9 jurists _______ sitting there. When they allowed Madelyn Ohara to come there and take prayer out of school – And they allowed it – I hope that we can remedy that one day and night because Islam and all these other religions. You see this is the melting pot. “Bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free. I raise my torch beside the golden door.” That's the Statue of Liberty tellin' 'em to come, come. But my thinking is if they coming, don't pack your suitcases and bring what your runnin' from over there and bring it over here and think they're gonna set it up and then bring and start making new laws for us to go by. I like what Australia says. “You're welcome to come here but you're gonna live according to the way we're living. You're not going to change our way of life.”. I hope that being nice is alright but nobody can take from me what I am inside of me. Nobody can control my destiny but me. He might keep me from going through that door but eventually I'll find a way out of here. AO: And that's the drive that we're missing. We'll try one or two doors and once it gets hard its like, “Somebody come and open it, please.”. AH: But you see, I never shall forget when I was young, I took some time and got into fighting, come in with black eyes. My mother said, - She'd come in and put some salt on it or whatever and she'd say, Alphonzo, there's always a bigger cat out than tom. You're not going to beat everybody.” That's what I try to tell – You see there's no need in this time right now, see – And I'm not critical of 'em 'cause I AO: Been there, done that. AH: Yeah. And so I look up here at Tech, these young boys getting these scholarships going up there and going out messing it up, getting drunk, fighting, doing things, messing up the scholarships. They got it. They got it going. Got it made. Got a chance to maybe go on to the big leagues. See, when I was down there, the only school I could go to and I was proud that I went there. You went to either Virginia State or down to Hampton. And those were black colleges like Bluefield but they taught. They taught us and they taught us well. Now these youngsters, they got great scholarships, going to Tech, going to Virginia, going to University of Virginia, going to North Carolina at Durham. They can go there. I never shall forget when we desegregated Durham, they sent kids in there and some of the girls in there wanted a separate dormitory. (chuckle) Lord have mercy. I stayed President of NAACP about 9 years. I don't envy them right now. But see at that time, it was almost like you signed your death warrant saying you were a member of the NAACP. 0.50.07.5 AO: Mm mm. AH: But, we've come this far by faith and we can make it but we – Its just running a relay race. Run so far and give it to somebody else. “You take it on.”. AO: That's a good analogy of life. AH: Yep. Be the best at whatever you are. AO: Right. AH: See, everybody's not going to be a brain surgeon or PHD because the whole world is run just about on average. Run on average. The average mind just about runs the world. AO: That's probably why its so scary. AH: Huh? AO: I probably shouldn't have said that. AH: Say what? AO: I just said its probably why its so scary. AH: No, its not that. The average man. The average man you meet in the street. A mail carrier AO: The average man 50 years ago and the average man today, I think there's a difference. AH: I don't know. There's always going to be an average. AO: Mm mm. 9 �AH: You're not going – See, not everybody's gonna be a PHD. Everybody's not going to be a doctor. Everybody's not going to be a lawyer. Everybody's who's average gonna come in. AO: Just think of how ineffectual this world would be if everybody had a PHD. AH: Wouldn't nobody sweep the floor. There's nothing wrong with being a janitor because if you didn't have a janitor, you wouldn't be able to get in here. AO: That's the truth. AH: But that janitor will take what he's making and he makes a contribution outside. AO: Mm mm. AH: In other words, if he has to go to a dentist, he has to pay that dentist's price from the money he made cleaning this floor. Average. It'll average out. Man up here making $150,000 a year and this man is making $50,000 a year. Its gotta meet somewhere in the middle. AO: _____ upper end of the money problem, AH: No, sometimes, somebody say a million dollars. Well, if they gave me a million dollars right now, I wouldn't know what to do with it. I'd have to give it away because I _____________. (laughing) I'd give it away 'cause – What would I buy with it? I got a house. I got a car. I got a truck. So, what would I buy. AO: The American way. More houses and more cars. AH: Yeah but that's the problem. I read an article about a basketball player. Like he's making at that particular time I think he was making about $15,000,000 a year. He bought him a house. 17 bathrooms. 3 motorcycles. 2 or 4 cars now. You can't ride but one. How many people you gonna have in this house to use 17 bathrooms. My thinking is, and I'm gonna still say it, mostly I'm talking about the black man now. I was sitting there one Sunday morning before I went to church and Toby Brown and John Thomas was on the television and they was talking. And I was thinking, “All these big schools, these Negros on the team, how many are going to the big league?”. And they sat there and talked that morning to come to the average. Are all these schools, these boys running up and down the field, - Bring 'em all up and maybe 3 of 'em make it to the big league. That's the average. I was thinking it looks like it ought to be a ______ of going to the _________ but about 3 will make it to the big. 15 million, 25 million. If 30 of those men would say, “Honey, we're making 15 million and I'm gonna live on 14 million and I'm making 9 and we'll live on 8 million.”. And take a million dollars and put it in the circle. That's 30 million dollars. We gonna buy a team. We gonna buy a _____. We're gonna buy a franchise. But the majority of them are not doing that. Stuff. Everybody see what I got and one player will put you out of business. My stepson played for the Los Angeles Rams but if he hadn't gone to Eastern Illinois and finished up, he wouldn't be working for Pepsi-Cola today 'cause, you see, he'd had a $20 hat on a 2 cents head. (laughing) AO: Again, I thank you for your time. AH: Its been a pleasure sitting here talking to you. Me up here running off at my mouth. I hope I've said something. 10 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2638/Holland_Alphonzo.jpg d9e3a3d6158f4280d98a9948a781e99e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Alphonzo L. Holland, Sr. Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Alphonzo L. Holland, Sr. Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 19 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 56:02 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alphonzo L. Holland, Sr.; Arleen Ollie; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HollandAlphonzo https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2637/Chubb_Richard_[compressed].mp3 9b55a399b383c6e648ca4acdd89e784c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2637/Chubb_Richard_19_October_2006.jpg 1e3ae2d1b70d633a7c6a6d8ce5180a9b https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2637/Chubb_Richard_Oral_Histories.pdf 9e3f87583e46a363c23427641b9992f0 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Richard Chubb Interviewer: Sarah Swanson Transcriber: Dorian Meekins RC: Okay. SS: I am Sarah Swanson and the date is April 6, 2009 and I am interviewing Mr. Richard Chubb, the principal of Hurt Park Elementary and the location of the interview is at Gainsboro Public Library. Mr. Chubb, can I have you initially start with what years were you principal at Hurt Park Elementary School? RC: I came there by way of a decision holding onto [the] fight of keeping Harrison School in September, 1975. They made a decision with the Fourth District, so I didn’t know where I was going, I just [was] going to be a principal. In fact I told [them] if I’m headed to [be] in China, but I better be back home in 15 minutes and I was very outspoken about it. So I – They made a decision, called me on a Friday and [of] course that was the Friday evening they told me to go to Hurt Park and the teachers were to arrive Monday so you can imagine they [were] about as shocked and they said that they realized that I wasn’t going to give and for me to go to Hurt Park. So that was Sept– I would say that must have been somewhere in July and– or it might have even the early part of August and I stayed there from ‘71 ‘till I got tired and took a leave of absence and then I just traveled and had [that] opportunity to see some things I wanted to do. And then I took a leave [of] absence and I set up my own personal business counsel consultant service and then I thought I’d probably be moved after that because someone said [if] they would make it real tough for me, y’know. But the parents decided for me to come back after 15 years and at the time I was about ready to do something different. So they demand for me to go back and that was it and then after that I went to central office after that leave. SS: And why was obtaining an education for yourself so important when you were growing up in this community? RC: It was beautiful, my mom and dad had both of them were to a degree as educated, I think, because they saw something that these parents don’t see now and I think what is happening to our African American community, they– people began to place more things on material things than on human beings were, y’know, I want mine to have it better, but it wasn’t better if you didn’t have that main thing, education, and that’s what the president is stressing now. And everybody– in fact, I’m in a neighborhood now with about the same number [of] houses that I had in my neighborhood where there might have been about 20 students with college degrees and now we got motorhomes in my neighborhood, big cars and only have 10 college graduates. So the importance of education, my momma and daddy, they didn’t have an opportunity, but they knew that this was a way to better yourself. And so that was the thing they taught, that was the sacrifice. My daddy worked five jobs, he didn’t make probably $60 a week, but out of three children both of us were able to get advanced degrees. SS: Can you explain why education is important in the Hurt Park Community? As when you were principal, or today, or– ? �RC: You see, people don’t want to say this, but without an education, that means you‘re not going to have the type of jobs to expose your children better and so a lot of things are by people being exposed. Education’s given me and my family– I’ve been able to reach back and pull up my family, but a lot of times, sometimes, now without the education some of them are getting with the stress and importance, they don’t see a way out of the economic trap. And they can– I know we were blessed because by stressing education, [when by] minding material things, but the way times– things are now, we can[’t] acknowledge that, y’know, you gotta have money and I knew [even then] that our parents didn’t have top jobs, but they valued education. So it was so important, not only to me, but for that community. And my style of dress and everything, they– a lot of people, they[‘ll] not call them disadvantaged, but I say if [it’s] ever disadvantaged, disadvantaged people need exposure, not enclosure. So I had a style form, y’know, you didn’t see me with all this wild stuff on. I’d go in and visit homes and– just like a family and so a lot of them– they modeled after me, my dress. [It’d be] my dress day, basically, on Fridays, y’know, and families did, children did, and found they’d get restless when they was dressed up. So it was a style for the community, being a role model, and they just got away from so many things that were seen as being programmed for disadvantaged people. SS: Can you describe the experience of integration in the Roanoke School System and Hurt Park? RC: Well, the Roanoke School System, the worst thing that ever happened in Roanoke, we didn’t have a four year black college. When I was at Bluefield State, a group of us in 1959, we started out a part of ‘58. We were students and, of course the people in the community got upset because we picket things like the stores and everything. Basically, Roanoke mostly got down by sitting down any saying “this is alright” y’know. So it was set up according to what the system, I would say, and that system could have been involved with some blacks, y’know. But the thing that really was sad, just like in ‘71, going up and down the streets trying to get people to keep the school open, I was telling [them] “That’s your community. Once you lose your school, that’s your community.” So it was really tough, y’know, and in other words, I know what happened because I was really black balled, y’know. You speak up like that with the whole system saying “you’re a troubled person”. That meant I was a trouble in the county and everywhere because I just spoke up for the rights. So it was a tough thing back when I was coming up. In fact, I can go back even further because, see as a student, sometimes I had to wait a week to get a desk. [I] Finished Addison in 1954 and so not only that, even before my time, the teachers were paid even less, the library books were less. So coming up, y’know, like, if I go Downtown, y’know, there were certain things people were called, y’know, little names if you were at the wrong place. And so it was tough because I worked beside a white fella in the bakery and he’s got about, like, $10 more in the week than I did and we did the same thing. So growing up it was really tough because even in church sometimes I was wondering, y’know, and we had to go to church two or three times a day, but we would sing “Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world. Red and yellow. Black and white.” And I would ask questions, y’know, what about me? Y’know so, it was a confused type thing, y’know, because you just didn’t understand why you work hard �and your parents don’t get as much as someone else so it was a touching pain But like I say, y’know, the value of that education is if you [are] going to get out of it and I’m sacrificing for you, where you won’t have to take it. Any time I would act up– my daddy worked five jobs, two of them, the family, we had to help him. And he always would say “yes sir” to the people up above and he’d say “I’m taking this”– I’d be upset, he’d say “I’m taking this so one day you won’t have to take it”. SS: Through your years as the Hurt Park Elementary School Principal, how did you see the goals or challenges facing the students change? RC: Well, I was on a mission, and I look back at it now, I don’t regret it. I was determined to make a change, y’know, and nothing was going to stop it. I just felt if I was going to learn, I believe in working my philosophy with the troubled child; the cognitally affected and the psychomotive. In other words, just like– I’m going to apologize. I had very strict– I had a beautiful office; TV, record player and all. They knew they had three slips, pink slips. And for the first one you got, you’d come to my office, we’d talk, might take a car ride. The next time I go to the parents. Let them know that, look, we [are] going to have structure here. I don’t want to do anything, I don’t want to correct your children that way, but somebody got to be the dad that I’m having to be here. And if you get the third one, they belong to me with some lil’ ‘ol– nice lil’ paddle before a teacher. Now what did that do? Rules are made out of love. I’m rich now because there’s not a week that goes by [where] a student, a teacher don’t come and check with me. So with that philosophy, being on a mission and it was centered around the troubled child, as I was saying. The cognitive– just like you got to put two plus two in logical order, the intellect. You’ve got to also put the effective domain things in logical order like feeling and emotion. I would help them to that because a lot of the times– That’s what [the] problem is of today; we got people [who are] smart, but they don’t know how to put emotion, anger and fears, in logical order. And that’s why you see so much killing and all. But I work with the troubled child, psych them up, motivate [them], let them know they had some natural skills, y’know, sports and all. But I want to let them know, they had to put all these things together. A lot of times people stress so much about getting As and Bs, but they don’t about the inner scars of a person, y’know, and I was able to tap that. That was a gift and I was on a mission that we had– the time I stayed, that first 15 years, [we] had only one suspension. Nobody could touch that. I just told the teachers we[‘re] not going to have that. They had four or five suspensions a week when I went there, they were breaking in three or four times a week at the school. They didn’t touch it in 15 years. And when I left that year, they put someone [in] and then they move[d] about 16 people. So when I came back I could see the damage that was done because it was built on the people being there year after year after year with the same philosophy of working with the troubled child. And then, y’know how people back to strictly the intellect the intellect, and [there’s] nothing wrong with that. See the three of the greatest Rs– they stressed when I was coming up; reading, writing, and arithmetic. So my mission statement was– three of the greatest Rs. Was, number one; religion. You gotta believe in somebody stronger than you and that’s God. And the second one was respect; you gotta respect your God and your country. And the last one, responsibility. You’re �responsible for that, you can’t blame momma and daddy, nobody why you’re not making it. So those were three of the greatest Rs. So those things were stressed along [with] not only self esteem, but self worth objectives. In other words, everybody in the school; janitors, aids, and all came to the staff meeting. We all had to know the play. And so from that, with that total commitment, y’know, it worked because a lot of parents in there– I mean a lot of the teacher, teachers aids rather, they had children, some of them knew had to work with the children just as well as the teacher when we had to work with those total domains. So. SS: How did you work to create trust in the community? RC: Mostly by example, y’know, in other words, I’m not– when I walked in the first day I told them, I said I’ve been Downtown, but I’m on a mission. So that don’t phase me. So running Downtown– if you don’t understand play that I’m doing then that’s going to be a problem. I will never write a letter, I will call you and talk to you one-on-one. I’m a– y’know, I got strong interpersonal and personal skill, I told them that. If something is wrong, I don’t want your job because, first thing, if I trade you or tell you I don’t want you, they might send me someone worse, if you[‘re] on tenure. So they liked that. I said, “Now I want you to know now–” and I went around the room and asked them because most of them are older teachers and I told them “Let’s add up of the years” and they did. I said “Well I don’t have but about ten”. That means I was running 200 years here, 150 [to] 200 years. And I said that means I’m going to be the first one in line if fault tenure, we fail. And so I just gave it to this whole group and that’s how you build up trust, y’know, you build it up with group decision making process and I never set up and say “mine”. The only thing I would ask a person if you had an idea, that three simple things be successful to me. And that’s if you got an idea, who gon’ to pay for it, who gon’ to do it. And so you raise your hand, see we got a lot of people with ideas, but who gon’ do it and who gon’ pay for it? Now you might can skip the middle one, it might be an idea and who’s gon’ do it. But a whole lot of things you come up and people raise their hand– I say “fine” and you [if] got something better [then] who’s gon’ pay for it and who’s gon’ do it. So that’s how you build up trust, you build up trust, open it up and just let them see you. Because a lot of times everybody complains [that] something can be better because that’s– that might be your personality, I don’t know. But if you can come with something that can help this group, let’s bring it up and who’s gon’ do it and who’s gon’ pay for it. SS: Can you talk a little bit about the community education program that you started at the school? RC: Well that was– the philosophy behind that and– I’m sorry they didn’t buy that, I thought it was an odd thing to have it, but I felt that if the school is there and tax dollars [are there], why can’t you use them at night at the school? So what I had there, I had the community– because I had the police to come in, the police department, police dialogue group. We had a lot of crime at times in the area and they could talk to the police and say they are helpers. We had cooking and sewing. Parents had GED, that meant we could help them with the homework [that] would help the children. The community ed program and then they had recreation in there and cooking and sewing. See the agency, they loved that. In fact, I even had it also on Fridays. We had an activity �program and that’s how I initiated again, by working on Fridays in the after school. When you put the extension on [they said] I could have more programs. And the thing that was so beautiful about it, it meant the teachers, they had– after school they would come by and the community just knew everybody. In other words, it’s just like a home type thing. The concept was so great I was lucky, I guess, to take my wife– I forgot the year, but they had a community program in Flint, Michigan– Mott Foundation. And they had all 63 schools open at night and then they also had the churches with community and that whole thing there can help educate the entire community. One of the better schools that I attended that I like as a role model is Whitmer Resource Center in Pontiac, Michigan while we were up there. And that meant even the parents would ride the school bus with the children, they’d get off and go in one way– and the parents would go in one way and then the children would go in one way and so they were doing some of the same type of activity to help the children. ‘Cause see, a lot of the times, the parents that we assume– with what happened back there I– when we would come, they stressed the education so much that I thought my momma and daddy had the doctrine. They were strict and they caught my spelling and all like that, but see, a lot of the times, now school [had] been so lax that it hadn’t been good for the parents and all so they don’t stress it. So that– I think that summed it up basically, the whole philosophy. SS: What other organizations were you involved in within the school or the community as a whole? RC: Oh about everything you can name. I was very much committed, we would take some things and we would do things like– we didn’t have a PTA when I first went there. That said, about the money wise, we built a PTA, we’d take the children to Washington, DC. We would take them to the circus. As far a personal[ly], I was on VPI Extension. Everything you can name, I was just– I was there, y’know, I[‘ve] always been that person. [I] didn’t require much sleep so anything in church, speaking engagements and all, I was just totally involved. Different organizations; I’m a life member of the NAACP, life member of the SCLC, life member of my fraternity, life member of my college things. So practically everything. In fact, now I’m trying to taper away, but if anybody asked me [at] that time, I would do it. SS: It was important for you to take a role in the community. RC: Oh yeah, because, see, people they– y’know, they lack that. Because I was smart enough to do this that, y’know, everybody [is] going to be used, right? But I was smart enough [that] if you gon’ use me, I’m coming out with something for the children. You understand me? That’s the kind of negotiation I would do. I’d go in and I’d knew a lot of children they didn’t have and so I could get the agency. Then people, they would come in. All different colleges would come in and they would volunteer, help reading and writing and all. So about me being with that, y’know, I always wanted to come out with something. SS: What are a few memorable experiences you had as the principal there? RC: Oh gosh. Well I guess bringing in a new philosophy. That was one because the teachers, they were just shocked to see me come in there on a Monday and they didn’t know it. That was a great experience. Another great experience, they had several years of Richard Chubb day, �y’know. Now you can imagine turning that many people around in a school where the majority of them [are] from maybe another race and they[’re] having a Richard Chubb day after all this. So they turned that around in no time. That was great because it was total commitment and we had the thing where we did a lot of things together after school in community ed. So that was great. It could work, y’know, it could work. You could have different races working together. And another experience I think was great; there’s this student who wrote me two years ago, I cannot pronounce her name, she was a foreign student. She came to Hurt Park and couldn’t speak English and I just looked at her– I know that people know love and they can see sincerity in the eyes, I don’t care what country you’re from. And she couldn’t speak English [or] anything, but anyway. I just put her in one of the teacher’s room[s] in the second grade and– I noticed every morning she would come and grin [at] me and then hug me and then I[‘d] hug her. Well, two years ago I got a letter and she’d been looking for me and she finished law school and everything. Those are the experience that I– I got a person now that check[s] with my cars and everything and I didn’t [even] realize that we had a– when you read that you can see a breakfast program. And I had to argue with the school officials and all, if they [are] hungry in the winter, they [are] hungry in the summer, so I started a summer program. And so he told me, he said “Y’know [the] reason why I still come to see you and recognized what you did for me– I heard you laid a person out” saying the same thing “if you hungry in the winter, you hungry in the summer” and I’m going to have a summer feeding program and she was telling me the laws and all that and I said forget about the laws. I’ll worry about that when I get caught. But to make a long story short; he’s grown and he’s got a son that’s a pretty good athlete, but when he told me– he said “If you can look back, do you– can you remember I was the first one every day in that summer feeding program waiting to eat, I just didn’t have food.” So those things– that’s another experience and I guess the other experience is just being thankful now. I never thought I would see this day. The day I told them about this attendance thing. Y’know, you just, sometimes it’s good to smell the roses along the way, but sometimes you don’t make it to know what’s going on. To see what is happening with some of the programs I have done and to see the people that didn’t support me at the time. That they come up and say “Well, I wished we had done this, I wished had done this.” Thirty years gone now and there’s still an attendance problem. So those are highlights. I could name them on and on, but as we talk it might come up again because [of] the amount of times things just hit you, y’know, after being retired 19 years. But there’s so many things, but I think those are highlights, y’know. SS: What challenges did you undergo? RC: The school system above me. I told them of my mission. In fact, I had to tell the superintendent one time, basically, y’know, you not going to get rid of me in the middle of the year because– I told you I was on a mission and I told him up front because I knew what it was. It was all about this. It wasn’t– They wanted me to fail. So what I did do, it was smart and what was so beautiful; once I didn’t trust the system, y’know what I did? I took out my own retirement. That meant I had to know the common. I had to know about the Dowel Jones S&P Not only that, I talked to a buddy of mine and of course, this was a little before because I was �getting ready, I guess, before 1966. I invited 12 guys to my house and told them they way going to be just like this. These people coming to our country, learning our language. They ain’t going to be fools all the time, we [are] taking their stuff. And so that’s why we [are] controlled now by a foreign country without– but my point, what I’m saying, y’know, that’s– that’s vision, y’know. When you feel like you own your own and things– all of it, especially what I’m saying. I was blessed now by retiring early I’ve been able to drive with two big motor coaches [in] every state you can drive in, about twice on vacation. [I] don’t like to fly, but my wife and daughter says it’s a shame not to go to Hawaii so I did make that trip. So I got them all in and I stayed over there a whole month, y’know. The only thing about it, I was worry about how I was gonna get back across that water. So those are the things and then I was able to look at other school systems and when I go visit and went to Alaska and stayed three months, y’know, to drive up there. So those types of things that sometimes, y’know, that somethings– when you’re young and you’re in school you don’t realize that if you take that stand, when you get old you don’t feel bad, y’know why? Cause I don’t wish what I said, I wish what I [had] done. You can’t go back and get ‘em, y’know. And to see me now and, y’know, to walk and it’s like those ones, I tell you, y’know, four miles and just, y’know, to leave here and heavy political thing back in– and, y’know, people now, so it’s– Those are rewarding things. SS: What was the school population like? What were the students like at your school? RC: What was the population? Well, can you imagine– the school– now I don’t know it so I can’t quote it accurate[ly], but I’ve had 500 students or more. And now most schools got assistant principals, full time counselors. I didn’t even have none– they had [a] part time counselor. But you can understand, it was just hard work. I’d get to school about 6:30 or 7:00 and I did all my paperwork before the people got there. Now, if– I would teach a class once a week. If the students ran the substitute away they had me for a week or ‘til they got better. So that’s, that’s the way it was. I was just there. In fact, I’d go there some mornings at 1:00 or at 3:30 cause, see, my average time walking then, year round, was like 3:30 in the morning before going into work. SS: What did you like best about your role in the community? RC: That people could call on me. Parents even when their children got out of hand, some of them were really rough and they wanted to– My wife was real– she said “Well gosh you not the daddy of all of em.” Sometimes they wouldn’t respect their parents and the parents called me. I’d go in the middle of the night, anytime. Y’know, I was just available. So being that role model and being a community person, they would really tell the truth, y’know, and sometimes, y’know, people would be afraid of your own because they think you’re gon’ start something, y’know, and I just had God on me and I was on a mission. That’s the key to it. I can pass on anything. When you got a mission that’s something you’re gonna do, y’know, nobody can turn you around. I probably could have lost my job– I never forget. When this article came out here, “Principal of School Due to Close”. The system superintendent called me, can you even imagine? He called me and he said “Did you mean to say this? What just came out in the paper?”. I said “I said more than that!” I told him “I’m sick of you professional migratory workers coming in my town and telling me what to do.” Sure enough, he left in a year or two. Byt I told him, I’m gonna be here, �y’know, and this is my community, I grew up here and I knew the problems we had and this– In order to be an agent of change you’ve got to be on a mission. SS: What were some important events or celebrations at the school? RC: Well, as I told you, one of them with, being modest about it, Richard Chubb Day. They had buttons and all and they had Key to the City and that was about in 1977 and they did it for about two or three years in a row, y’know. The other thing– like a breakfast program was initially there, community education. All that and from those things– other things came, y’know, it was a community type thing. People from the different colleges came and did volunteer work, just different agencies. Those were the common sort of thing. SS: Do you remember any personal experience one-on-one with the students? Good experiences with..? RC: Yeah, I think I mentioned that with the girl that came, couldn’t speak English. Do you want me to repeat that again? SS: No, it’s okay. I was wondering if you had any other. RC: Yeah, and… SS: You remember any families throughout your period– do you want to talk about any of those? RC: Yeah, oh yeah. That’s what I see over and over. I’ve seen families that did quite well. The whole family structure. I could see it as they would go– they would take students– Okay, if they had children at other schools that had problems or teachers, y’know where they would send them? To me. I took pride in it. So those students now, they thank me because they know that was the only chance they had. So, not only that, parents were told that “Okay, you can’t work here directly, but if you say you live in that area, Chubb will take you”, but although they wouldn’t praise that. So I had those type of things, y’know. Teachers who they didn’t fit at another school, they would call me up and say “Well, y’know, would you like another teacher?” “Sure” because that meant that I could have more help to help the students. But if they didn’t dress a particular way at this school– y’know what I’m talking about. So they sent them to me, but the thing that’s so beautiful about it, that’s why they really thanked me about it because I was just that kind of person. I wasn’t there to fight nobody. I let them know– I can work with you because if that’s not it I can help you if you tell me. That kind of stuff, it passes throughout and [if] you’ve been somewhere 15 years, y’know, people want to come and they just didn’t leave. Y’know, my turnover– just didn’t have that much to turnover. Sometime[s] I guess, it might have been good in a way, but it was good because a lot of times I knew what students to put with certain teachers from other family experience[s], y’know. And then sometimes, the parents, I’d listen at them and I always, y’know, knew certain techniques. They’d come in, some of them and I was in the area, y’know, where they really would– they might not take a lot, y’know, but I was strong enough, athletic enough to show them, especially in basketball. We had a court there [if] they wanted to think they could try ol’ coach, whatever [it] might be, y’know. That was the way it was, y’know, and those experiences like that I think that [were] the most rewarding. SS: And finally; why did you want to be a principal? �RC: Because I’d been around and in the school. [I’d] never been assistant principal and I was telling people, y’know, I’m– I was just at that point and they said Harrison School– I think they led me into it in a way because they knew they were gonna close it, but I was a people person. In fact, every school I worked with the parents would come and say “Y’know, we see you all the time. You[‘re] in the community and you visit homes. You oughta be the principal.” So they led me into this because they knew they were going to close this school, but in the same time, being a people person, you see, I just said “Gosh if I didn’t do anything, but go meet the people I’d be better than what it’s like when you’re dealing with people.” The personal and interpersonal skills, now you gotta have the knowledge too. So, that led me in, I said “I know I can do this, good gosh.” I mean, you don’t even– scared and running, you don’t sit and talk to the parents and all. So that’s what I did. Never been an assistant principal. Never taught in [an] elementary school, per say. Mine mostly was on high school and junior high school level, but when they pointed me there, y’know, I guess I used the opportunity to have a whole lot of rewarding experiences. I always said that the helper [and] instructor and education experience is one that leaves the learner better [than] if they hadn’t had it. These experiences, man. I mean, I’m just bubblin’. I don’t even sleep still, as I was telling you, because this is amazing to see this. Just to see how, y’know, someone will take and try to– I mean, everyday people [were] calling me. “It ain’t worth it.” Some of their own people– “It’s not worth it, y’know. You gon’ lose your job, you gon’ lose your–” How the hell ain’t that worth nothin’? Because I was on a mission. I wanted to see something that could change and now to be able to see, as I told you before, there’s not a week that goes by [that] a teacher or a student don’t come to visit me and as I was telling you about this young lady that she even finished school. I wish I could just name experiences. The people who’ve been successful that I’ve been with. Just like, to give you a good example; George Lynch came to my school. He ended up playing pro ball. The people that, y’know, ended up doing quite well. Now, some of them didn’t. And then some of them, they said– what happened to them when they left Hurt Park without their discipline, that’s when some of them went down. I picked up the paper the other day and I– after the fella left and went into another school. I was trying to help him, but he got into a whole lot of trouble, y’know, and the first thing they tell them– “I just with that I’d had that structure,” y’know. SS: Do you have anything else you’d like to add? Any other–? RC: Well, anything you want to ask me. SS: Do you have any other experiences about students or families, specifically in Hurt Park that you’d like to share? About your changing– because you were definitely influencing student’s lives a lot. RC: Well see, the thing, what I’m sayin’, I’m a licensed professional counselor now. I closed my business in 2002. But now, we had to get 20 hours to keep our license. I used to get about 30 and the reason why, because I’m– I do a lot of volunteer work. I’m in nursing homes two or three times a week. My philosophy now [is] that there’s some people who have done well. They say no child left behind, I say no adult left behind. I wish I’d mentioned to some people in politics, we oughta have said no adults left behind. These are people now who[‘ve] got to cut medicine in �half, they don’t have certain things to eat and I’m just blessed because financially I can do it. So what I do, even now, I take not only some of my relatives, they have it a little rough. I reach back because I can see what’s happening in my own situation. That some of my family members let people place more value on material things than that education. So I hate to see that because you don’t want to go back. So some of these things that I do now on a volunteer basis, I have liability insurance because doing it free, you can get sued just as well as you[‘re] getting paid for it. So the other thing about it, I– Delegate Ware over the 11th District, y’know, he’s already– he’s from Greensboro, but he adopted me as his daddy. He[‘s] got a conference room over here that’s named for me, y’know, R.L. Chubb Conference Room. So I’m on the political team. All of them are much younger and they said they need my wisdom and and partly because I know the people, y’know, and the time they vote and things like that. So– And things like working with the elderly and sometimes adopting a family and taking them to church and setting up needed funds for people, y’know, having to get it out of my pocket. Sometimes I let them come to our church, y’know, and it’s real fun. And anything else? Do you have anything you’d like to say? Unknown: I just wonder if you are keeping in touch with the Hurt Park Elementary School and how do you think it’s changing over time since you left the school? RC: Well, it’s– most of the school has changed anyway because they’ve had too many people there new and that’s now good. Scores are bad. They’re beginning to see some things I mentioned to them years ago. And that is, y’know, when you start working with people, you gotta build trust and if you don’t have good skills in that area, y’know, in other words. I’ve seen people try to do like me, visit at home, and y’know, you don’t have to be dressed any different. But people can tell how you turn up your nose and how you’re looking at them and all. It’s a feeling type thing, y’know. So a lot of people can’t do it. I think a lot of it– some of it’s innate, y’know. It’s just like some people are born with certain gifts and I just, y’know, use what you got, y’know. I’m not sayin’ noting couldn’t happen, but I just wasn’t afraid of it. I mean, I was in the area where, y’know, they would fight, y’know, and I just let them know, y’know, I can do that too, y’know. But also, y’know, it’s good to be able to use the greatest gift you got and that’s to talk. SS: Well it was great talking with you and I think we’ve covered most everything. Thank you so much for participating. RC: Well I enjoyed talkin’ to you and if you think of anything else, just give me a call. SS: Alright. Thank you. RC: Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Richard Chubb Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Richard Chubb Interviewer: Alicia Sell Date: 19 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 53:41 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Richard L. Chubb; Sarah Swenson Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ChubbRichard https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2636/Rogers_George_[compressed].mp3 0df5dc79d542dc9f3db9c4e6a0ed73b9 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2636/RogersGeorge.pdf 6d816197232545bd7cf30e957bb7dd6a PDF Text Text Interviewee: George Rogers Interviewer: Mary Bishop Transcriber: Andrew Sterling This is October 12, 2006, at the Gainsboro Library and we are talking with George Rogers. MB: Mr. Rogers, first, tell me your full name. GR: George Edward Rogers. MB: Where and when were you born? GR: I was born at 604 4th Street Northeast, May 15, 1919. MB: How long did you live in Northeast or have long have you lived in Roanoke? All your life? GR: I've lived in Roanoke all my life with the exception of about 2 years that I spent in Washington, D.C. MB: What streets have you lived on in Roanoke? GR: I've lived on 4 different streets. MB: What are they? GR: I lived at where I was born, 604 4th Street, Northeast and then I lived – I married and moved to – Where did my wife and I move to? - 927 Fairfax Avenue, Northwest. And that was my first wife and then when I got married again, we lived at 1610 Gilmer Avenue Northwest. And now, I'm living at 1311 Orange Avenue, Northwest. MB: How long have you lived there? GR: I guess I've been there for 25 years, I guess, or pretty close to it. I moved there when my wife and I divorced. And then when my mother died, I had to buy the house from the rest of the children. I did that and did some repairs there so I'm still there by myself. MB: Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. GR: My mother and father moved to Roanoke I guess eighty-some years ago. Well, I'm 87 so I was the first child born in Roanoke. My oldest brother MB: Where did they move from? GR: North Carolina, Henderson. My mother went to Kittrell College. I don't think – She lived in Kittrell. I think my dad lived in Henderson and I think they got married down there, wherever. And when they moved to Roanoke, they had 2 children, my oldest brother was Charles Somer Rogers and my older sister was Ruth Marie Rogers. And – there's another question you asked me – You want me to go on from there? MB: Sure. GR: OK. But I was born here 87 years ago at 601 4th Street and then we moved from there to Patton Avenue. My father was a brick mason and as the family grew, we had to get another place. So we moved from 604 4th Street to 110 Patton Avenue Northwest where my daddy built a brick house. Then we began to filter out from there and I lived down there. I don't remember really what year it was when they decided to do away with Northeast. Everybody had to move out of the Northeast area and then they had to find other places to live and most of them decided to move into Northwest. MB: So that's when your father built the house on Patton? GR: That was before – This was after he built the house down there because the rest of the children were all born in the new house after me. I was the first one born in Roanoke and then the other 3 children were born in Roanoke too, but they were born – I think they were born on Patton Avenue. Because we were sort-of outgrowing the house on 4th Street. And so dad being a brick mason, he built this house for us on Patton Avenue. MB: Describe that house for us. Is it still there? 0.04.56.2 1 �GR: Oh no, no, no. You see when they did away with all the properties in Northeast for the blacks down there, we had to have a place to live too so we had to move. We – What was the question you asked me? MB: If the house was still there. GR: No, no, no. Its been gone. Ever since the MB: Now that I think about the address, I realized there are no houses in that spot. GR: No, the Civic Center is down there now. I could just throw a rock from the Civic Center and hit the house that we lived in just about. Close. MB: Talk a little bit about – So your father was a brick mason and tell me about the work you've done in your life. GR: When I was in high school, I worked – I was shining shoes downtown on Jefferson Street in a place where they worked on shoes and they blocked hats. Do you know what that means? MB: Uh uh. Oh, blocked hats, yes, I do remember that. GR: See, during those years, they had several of those places that they – See most men wore hats then. Not too many of them do now but they did then and they had these places where they could – if the hat got dirty, you'd take it to them and they'd clean it up and you'd come back and pick it up when they got it ready. So they had a shoe-shine stand there, you know, about 4 seats up on it. As you shined a person's shoes, then you'd go back to the end of the line. See, you had to cut the other guys in there. And then you'd – when they got someone else, they moved back to the end of the line. That just went on and on and it was – I did that until I guess, a little before I left high school. That's when I left the place down there because MB: And that was downtown? GR: That was downtown. Remember Oak Hall? You're not a Roanoker. MB: No. GR: Oak Hall was a huge clothing store down there for men and – the whole family, big store down there. And I remember if you were going to buy a pair of shoes - I did, right next door to where we were shining shoes was a place called Thom Mccann and I would go before I got ready to leave work that day, if I had made $2, I took a dollar and went over and put it on a pair of shoes. I did this until I got the shoes paid for. Then, I don't remember actually what happened after that but the only job, major job that I had after that was - I went to Hotel Roanoke and I was bellman over there for a little less than a year and I heard that they were hiring on the railroad. So, I went downtown in the dining car department where they were hiring and tried to apply for a job. They said, “Well, George, you know that the railroad owns Hotel Roanoke”. I said, “Yes, I'm aware of that”. He said, “Well, you have to get a release from the Hotel Roanoke before we can consider you”. I said, “OK”. So I knew I had to get before the superintendent of service to get permission to go down there and apply. But he was such an evil person, you know. It looked like he was just so full of himself or whatever, you know. He was just a mean man. And I bet you I passed by his door 8 or 10 times before I got nerve enough to go in there just to tell him what I wanted. So when I got up enough nerve, I went in there and I said, “Mr. Coleman”, I said “I need a favor”. I want to move down to the railroad and they told me I'd have to come up here and get permission from you before I could be considered for employment”. And so, I said, “What do you think?”. He said, “George, I think its a good idea. If you want to go down there, you go on down there and see what you can do. If they don't hire you, come on back, you got your job waiting on you”. MB: How old were you do you think? 0.09.54.6 GR: I'm saying I was about – I'm making a guess now – somewhere around 20 or 21. And so I went on down there and started to work and the main line was from Norfolk to Cincinnati and we would – That was the main line but we had dining cars running from Roanoke to Bristol, Virginia, I mean going 2 �to Birmingham, Alabama. The men in the dining car were making several dining trains going from Roanoke to Cincinnati and back to Norfolk on the main line. But that was the Southern Railroad going to Birmingham. The train leaving New York tonight, destination Birmingham, would leave there about 7:00 that night, pick us up here the next morning. Because when the train came in, you had the pullmans on the rear end, coaches on the front. They just split the train, stick us in there, and we served breakfast, lunch and dinner into Birmingham. And then the train leaving New Orleans, destination New York, leaving at night and they would come in and pick us up in Birmingham and we serve breakfast, lunch and dinner into Roanoke. You follow? Say that we did this on Monday and Tuesday, a day going down and a day coming back and then we were off Wednesday and Thursday and then on Friday, we had to go down to the commissary down here and put supplies on the car that the steward had ordered because he knew what we needed for to make the next trip. And we would put these supplies on the car and then we would take off the next day. That would be on Saturday. So, then that – stayed there until I guess maybe – I forget how many years we did that but I do remember that there were a lot of troop trains – this was during the war, you know, and I remember when we were coming out of Norfolk one day and by the time we got to Petersburg, somebody was coming down the platform there, “Hey, they just bombed Pearl Harbor”. Whew! “I'm sure glad we got out of Norfolk in time”. I didn't have any idea where Pearl Harbor was. Never even heard of the place before but I just assumed we were leaving a harbor down there as big as Norfolk, it had to be somewhere near there. I was just glad to get out of there, you know. So, we got back home to Roanoke and come to find out, the place was 5,000 miles from here. Whew! But anyway MB: Before you go on, what was your job on the dining car? GR: I was a waiter. That was a good question. And MB: It sounds as if you all worked as a team though and you went on Saturdays to the commissary. Did you help go get those things? GR: Sure we did. Like I said, we went to Birmingham and come back. Leave on Monday, come back on Tuesday night. We'd lay over Wednesday and Thursday. Then Friday, we would go down and put supplies on the train and leave 'em sitting there. This was not a thing that you did the same days every week. You see, it would depend on whatever day that you, it was your turn to go back. It wouldn't necessarily be on a Saturday again, see? MB: I see. GR: You had another day during the week. And so we did that until I think – let me think now – put that question to me again now. MB: Did you work as a team, the dining car crew? GR: Well, in the dining car, we had 5 stations, a deuce and a 4-top. 1-2-3-4-5. And there were 5 waiters on there and 4 cooks. And you can imagine how much space you had on – especially in the kitchen with 4 cooks back there and you've got a stove back there and you've got refrigerators and all this kind of stuff. It was kind of tight back in there. MB: Mm mm. 0.14.42.0 GR: Of course, we all had different things to do. You had what you call a linen man. He had to take care of the linen. He'd go to the linen room upstairs and get the tablecloths and the napkins and things like that, whatever linen you would need for that car. And then the other fellows, you might need 4 or 5 waiters on there to put supplies on the car. So we would just put whatever personnel you needed to put the supplies on the car that took care of it. But on the trip itself, when we left here like in the mornings after they put us on there, you ____ to the back of the car because of the pullroom back there, you'd go up front and make a call. You'd go over there and say, “Good morning ladies and gentleman. The dining car is now open for breakfast, the dining car to the rear”. And so you'd go on back so you could be back there by the time people started coming in. That's just the way it was for each meal. You'd go 3 �and make an announcement that lunch was ready and dinner was ready, etc., etc., until you'd finish that day and they'd do the same thing coming back the following day. MB: How long did you work on the dining car? GR: Well, I'll tell you about that. When the – It got to the point where they were only hauling more employees than anybody else. And they were paying – some were riding free on passes and some were riding half-fare or whatever, you know. The dining car stewards we had, I don't know if I mentioned it or not but, they took them off about 2 years before they closed down the dining car business. And what happened was a, like I said, they weren't making any revenue hauling employees. There are no big cities between Norfolk and Cincinnati that you could be drawing from that kept a lot of business on there. So they just decided – They did away with the stewards and I became a “Waiter-In-Charge”. I was doing the same thing the stewards were doing because they were white and we were black but other than that, we were not have been promotable. We did that and after I was cut off – after they stopped the dining car business, they didn't need us anymore so we could've stayed there MB: About when was that? GR: I'm thinking somewhere – now this is just a guess now – I'm talking about somewhere in the mid-'70s or early. I remember I was still on the railroad in '41 and I don't know, maybe somewhere in the '30s. See because if I was on the railroad December 7, 1941, when Pearl Harbor was, I had probably been there maybe a couple of years then. So that was back in the '30s. MB: So you probably started in the late '30s? GR: Yeah, yeah. MB: And it went on to the mid-'70s. GR: Right. MB: Wow, that's a lot of years. GR: So then what happened, I had – did I get to where I left the railroad? MB: No. GR: OK. I was the waiter-in-charge for about 2 years before they decided to go out of the business altogether. We could've stayed with the railroad but you had to go up to the general office and work for some of the bosses up there. You had to clean out these cuspidors we talked about a few minutes ago. And then you'd have to go out to their homes and cut their grass and wash their cars and all this kind of stuff. I didn't want that. So, I decided to try for the Post Office. And so I went and took the examination for the Post Office and passed that and a couple of weeks went by and I went down and talked with the Postmaster. “Mr. Raines, I don't have a job.” He said, “Mr. Rogers we just don't have a place for you right now. We've got people ahead of you but as soon as we get down to your name, you will be – you will have a job”. I said, “What about moving my eligibility to Washington D.C. He said, “OK”. And had I mentioned that – and would you believe in 3 weeks time, they called me to come and work in Washington. So I went to Washington in – I was staying with my sister up there. She was working in the Navy Department and she was living alone so I stayed with her but I'm traveling back and forth every weekend commute coming back home because I had a wife and 2 children here. See? So I moved them up there and then my shift at the post office, I was carrying special deliveries. At that time, they were using station wagons for special deliveries. I wasn't doing work like the carriers do here and so I had to work from 4 to 12:30 midnight delivering special deliveries. So I had to have another job so I got a job down at the Capital on the House side. Are you familiar with the Capital? 0.21.04.4 MB: Mm mm. GR: OK. Serving lunch. We served lunch from about 11:00 to 2:30 or something like that. And you wouldn't believe how these congressmen got along with each other. It was just like, (growling sound) MB: Really? GR: They would be hollering and screaming and cursing at each other all across the dining room. See, 4 �there were no ladies in there see? MB: Uh huh. GR: And then you'd bring him a regular order or something that he ordered, you know, and it was never enough. Even down to the deserts. “What'd you bring me this little piece of pie over here for.” It was a piece of pie, you know. “I want a bigger piece of watermelon than that.” They had been given what they asked for and the meal costs them less than $2. They got all kind of breaks up there. MB: Do you remember any well-known ones that you saw? GR: Naw, naw. At that time, I didn't pay too much attention to who was running the country or whatever. But, I would leave the Capital. Geographically, the Capital, if you are familiar with where the Capital is in relation to the Post Office which is right next to UN Station. I could just walk from the Capital over there because the car was already over there. And then it got to the point where I had to have another job. I got a job working at a place over on Rhode Island Avenue and that was a hotel very similar to the Holiday Inn, serving breakfast. Now that's breakfast, lunch and then the Post Office in one day. So I did that until I just got tired of that and I told my wife one day, I said, “Listen, we're gonna have to move back home because we can't afford to stay up here”. So, she didn't want to leave but she never had been to a big city before so she was enjoying it up there so much. Never seen all these big businesses and all this kind of stuff. She said, “I don't want to leave”. I said, “Well, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna give you 30 days and we're getting out of here”. So in about 2 weeks time, she was getting boxes of stuff together to move back to Roanoke. And so we moved back to Roanoke and I got back into the post office here. And then, I was at the post office, when you first go in, you would jump on that this station, that station or whatever as a carrier. And that's what I did until I retired and I retired from the post office in 1984. I retired in September, about the first week in September. But the third week, I got sick of it, you know, being retired. I said, “Shoot. I gotta find something to do”. At that time – How long have y'all been in Roanoke? MB: I've been here 18 years. GR: So you're familiar with when the Marriott Hotel was out there? MB: Mm mm. 0.24.23.4 GR: OK You know where the Windham is? That was built as a Marriott Hotel. The man that built that hotel was a local person. He lived in Salem and he was an architect. He designed it and had it built. And I retired in September and they opened the hotel in November. So what I had to do, I had to go over there and see about getting a job over there because I was a waiter before and I felt like I would be doing something in that hotel as a waiter or whatever. So I went over to the hotel – They were just about through with the hotel and I went into personnel and talked to the lady. I said, “What do you think my chances are?”. She said, “I think your chances are very good”. I said, “OK”. Well, to make a long story short, I got the job. I was the first Employee Of The Year that the hotel had. And there were a lot of employees then, you know. But I've always been a dedicated person as far as a job is concerned. I did as good a job as I could while I was working there. I'm still there. MB: Oh really? GR: I'm only working 2 nights a week though, Mondays and Tuesdays. MB: And what do you do? GR: I'm a host now in the gourmet restaurant at the Windham, Remmington's. Did you ever hear of it? MB: Yeah. GR: I am the host there on Monday and Tuesday nights. That's all I want to work because I've got other things to do. I belong to this and that and volunteer here and there. I belong to Loudon Melrose Neighborhood Organization which is – They do things in the community in certain areas. They've got several of them in Roanoke. I just happen to belong to the LMNO which is Loudon Melrose Neighborhood Organization. And then I volunteer over at RAM House every Wednesday and I've been 5 �down there for about 15 years. MB: Wow. GR: I started out in the kitchen. I enjoyed it but – we had to do, going around doing the things that you needed to do to get the food ready for the homeless people. So I've been doing this about 12 years and they hired this girl. She is a manager. Something happened to the other person. It was a man. They finally got this lady to come in and of course we worked together for a pretty good while, several years. So they had this dining room over there that seated 32 people, 4 tables of 8. And before you'd open the dining room, you had a meal sitting at all 32 spots. So once you opened the door, it would fill up. Then the guy with the clicker, he started at 32 on there. OK, if 2 or 3 people finished, they got up and left and 2 or 3 people will come in. And then they – They've changed it now you know where they have a buffet. The people come through and help themselves. Then you had to serve them. You serve them and when you set the meals down, you had to come back and get the deserts for 'em. You'd come back and – When someone else came in, you carried them a plate and I had a tray for the deserts to carry them. I noticed something that looked like they were not going back out carrying deserts on time. They'd be sitting there, sitting there, you've got all volunteers in there you know. They weren't professional. And so the – I said, “Wait a minute. Have y'all carried any deserts out to those 3 people that just came in?” Here comes that manager. (Said meanly) - “I have told them everything they need to know. They don't need any different information from you”. I said does this woman realize that I'm a volunteer down here and she's talking to me like she's paying me a salary every month. But they've been trying to get me to come upstairs in the office anyway. And I just enjoyed doing what I doing. But this gave me an opportunity to go upstairs with these people upstairs. There are 3 girls working up there now, the director and 2 other people. And I'm up there on Wednesdays and I just enjoy going over there so much. I'm always putting on some nice cologne before I leave home because they want to hug you. “Oh George. You're so special.” Rubbing my back. Have coffee made for me when I get there and always peanut butter and crackers back there and sometimes you bring stuff from home. And I just enjoy the job so much. I like doing that better than anything that I've done because the girls are so nice to me and they – I do things for them as well. But I enjoy what I do over there. 0.29.56.6 MB: And what do you do? GR: Well, downstairs they have a lady down there that has this office that you come in. They will give you money to pay electric bills, rent, water bills, all of your utilities. They'll give you bus passes. They will give you money if you need some kind of a thing that you get from school if somebody is going to or whatever. They have to give me some information about where they're going to school or whatever. They do all these different things for 'em. Sometimes, 3 or 4 sheets will come up for each person, sometimes 5 or 6 sheets. It depends on how much they have asked for and the information you have to get. But when these forms come upstairs to me, then I have to look in the file to see whether or not they've been there in a year. You're only entitled to come there once a year. I have to go through and find out if they've been there before in the same year. It depends on what it is. If its something that costs $20 or $25, no problem. Sometimes, the little things that they ask me for from the city or from the schools might be $10 or $15. Then you're entitled to whatever else you want. They will – when these forms come up, I look through the file and see if they've been there and if they haven't, then I have to fill out this form or finish filling it out. And there's another sheet that I have to put in all the names on there, what area of the city they're from, what they wanted like rent and electric bills or whatever they asked for and the amount over here. Then I have to fill out this form that came up from downstairs because sometimes there's 3 or 4 sheets in there. I do very little work with that but I have to write checks for Appalachian, I have to write checks for them. I have to write checks for rent and write checks for all these other little incidentals that came from the city, sometimes only $2. These people come down and ask for something that even $2 they don't have the money for. But anyway, that's what 6 �I do upstairs and once I get those forms filled out and the checks written then I have to write, address the envelopes going to wherever to this place, rent or whatever. I have to write the checks but I don't sign 'em but I just write 'em. MB: Tell me about your school life, early on and whenever. 0.33.06.4 GR: Well, I remember one day coming to school, there was a fellow that lived right across the street over here and the side street coming up, the school faces that way, the side street over here and another street over here and I was on my way to school. “Hey, come here a minute”. I said, “What do you want?”. “Got something I want to sell ya”. I said, “What is it?”. “I got a gun I want to sell you”. I said, “How much do you want for it?”. He said, “Two dollars”. I looked at it. I thought that was a pretty good deal so I gave him $2 for the gun and put it in my pocket. So when I went into school, I saw one of my buddies in there and I said, “Look at what I got for 2 bucks”. I bet you it wasn't an hour passed before they called me to come to the office. This monkey had ratted on me. So when I went down to the principal's office, he said, “George, I want what you've got in your right pants pocket. I want you to put it on my desk”. I said, “I can't do that”. I said to myself, “How does he know what I had in my pocket?” He said, “Well, I'm gonna tell you you're either gonna put it up there or else you're gonna have to be suspended from school”. I said, “Well, I tell you what, I'll do that if you give me the $2 that I paid for it on the way to school”. He wasn't going to do that either. I said, “Alright then you do what you have to do”. (chuckle) So he told me I was going to have to go home. I said OK and I went on home. MB: How old were you? 0.34.55.9 GR: I guess I was about 16 or 17. 17 I'm sure. MB: And what school was that? GR: Lucy Addison High. So I just stayed out of school. What happened was my momma and daddy had to come over to the school and talk to the principal about getting me back in school. One night, they had a basketball game. So I went to the basketball game. They charged me not a student price but a regular adult price. I said, “What's going on here?”. I said, “I'm a student here”. “You're not in school now”. I said, “OK”. It just got crazy this is now. I came one back outside and I saw 2 or 3 guys back there. Said, “Man, we're gonna break in the back”. On the back, they had a chain that went through these two handles. You know you have a handle on this door and a handle on this door, chains run through there. They got something and pried that chain off of there. And we started in. And just about that time, somebody said, “Here come the principal”. The other guys ran that way and I ran this way. I ran right into the principal's arms. I'm the only one that he saw. He knew there was somebody else back there but he didn't know who they were because he didn't see them because it was dark. Basketball game was at night. So, he said, “OK, George Rogers, I saw you, I saw you.”. So they called my mom and dad and they had to come over and see about me. And I'm sitting up on the hill because something said to me, “George, you better just stay here. You better go back down while your mom and dad are down there and see what's going on”. Because when my mom and dad leave, I'd have to face this man all by myself. What they did, they carried me down to the – it was not a jail, but you were behind bars. MB: Detention Center? GR: Detention, that's what it was. So, they had some coming up the next day for me. So daddy never did come down but momma came down and I think the fine was something like $10 or something like that. He said, “It'll be $10 or 10 days in jail.” 10 days would've put it through Christmas. Momma went on and gave 'em the $10. $10 was a lot of money to them then. She said, “I'm not gonna let my son be in jail during Christmas”. So that was the end of my schooling. I decided not to go back to school. I was just a few months from finishing. But since that time, I'm not sorry that I didn't because I 7 �have been fortunate enough to have decent jobs from the beginning. I bought 3 homes in my life. One for my first wife and one for my second wife and the one that I'm living in now. And I've got some money saved up and I bought a little stock here and a little stock there, whatever. I don't think I could've done it – Maybe I could've done better but I'm satisfied with how my life has been because I have lived a life where I know just about every biggie in Northwest and you couldn't hardly go through Northwest and say something about George Rogers and the person didn't know me unless they're people under 50 years old. The people that are my age or maybe 20 years younger, they all know me because I've been involved in so many different things from time to time. I guess one of the reasons she had me down here. I have enjoyed my life and I have no regret for not finishing high school. Now, I've made sure that my children got grown, I told all of 'em – All of 'em went to college but one. 0.39.33.3 MB: How many children do you have? GR: Five. And so, that one child decided she wanted to go in the service and so she went into the service. She put 10 years in and she got out, she has been one of the best children. She's the only one that I have that has never asked me for a nickel. Not one nickel. She put 10 years in the service and she started working down here at Eli Lilly, I think it was at that time, and she's been down there for 17 years. My oldest daughter got married and she moved to Washington. She has a son and he's thirtysome years old now. That's my grandson. And then I have my other son and he has a son which is my grandson. And my other two children don't have any – my other two daughters don't have any children. And – But, what I did, I went down and had the home put in my daughter's name. So if anything happened to me, I don't think they can take my home now because its not in my name, its in her name. I'm leaving her the house because she's the only child I haven't done anything for. The rest of 'em had their hand out like this. You know you would think that once you have children at home, that you have fed them, clothed them, give 'em a place to stay and all this kind of stuff while their – buy books for 'em, papers and all this and by the time they get grown, you would think they were on their own. But it doesn't work that way. My daughter told me the other – My son's wife, I don't know where he ever got her from. She wanted to borrow some money for something and I let her have $2,800. All these bills that she said that she had. She called up there to the house at 1 or 2 in the afternoon, “Hello”. She's still at home. I bet she's had 20 jobs in the past 2 years. She just doesn't like to go to work. But they have a son. You think they've got any money saved up for him to go to college? I'm putting money in the bank for him every month and I've got about $20,000 saved for him to go to college when he finishes high school. That's been a little tough. MB: Tell me about your community life, your home life at your various houses here. What the neighborhood was like, what your home life was like. GR: Well, I don't remember – You talking about going all the way back or in later years? MB: I guess, either one that you feel like talking about. GR: Well, the only thing I remember about from years back was when we lived next door to – Well, there's a Catholic school up on the hill. St. Andrew's? MB: Mm mm. GR: Well, right down at the bottom is a creek that runs down through there. Do you know where that is behind the Civic Center? MB: Yeah, mm mm. Long Lick. GR: We lived – Big Lick – Maybe it is Long Lick, I don't know what it is, but we lived about a half a block up from the creek. The houses were along the creek itself. We used to get out there and we didn't get along with the boys up on the hill because they were all in an orphanage up there. They had an orphanage up there. MB: Oh, I didn't know that. GR: Not St. Gerard's its St. Andrew's. And they all wore uniforms, blue and white I think it was. And 8 �they used to go out there and throw rocks at us and we were throwing rocks back at them. How stupid it was. They're throwing down the hill and we're throwing up the hill. I don't know if a rock ever got up there and hit one of 'em. (chuckle) But we just kept throwing rocks. We'd get hit every once in a while, “Owww”. We couldn't get rocks that far up there. Dumb kids but we know we just did it. And then there was a croquet vacant lot right next to us. These men used to work for the railroad. They would come through there on their way home in the evening and they had cleared that lot all off and they put a croquet set out there. And these guys would come down and they took – what they used for balls were – they made these balls out of bowling balls down at the railroad. They had some kinda way that they could grind these big balls down and make 'em the size of a croquet ball. And they just tore up the fences around there when they hit them balls. And they had made their own MB: Mallets. GR: Mallets. And they had a rubber thing put on one end, and a big piece of leather on the other. MB: Made their own. How interesting. 0.44.54.8 GR: Made your own, see. And see they – All the fences they had around there had holes in 'em because them guys hit them balls and missed and then “Boom!”. Over time, the fence was all messed up. (chuckle) It stayed that way until we had to leave from down there. There was a big boulevard type thing. We used as a skating rink because that was the only thing we had to ride on, no bicycles, couldn't afford 'em. We got skates and we just skated around – the guys in the neighborhood. Girls didn't skate then. We just played baseball. That was the only sport we got into was baseball and skating and things like that. And I – coming up, I don't remember – I remember going to the Y and the Y was in a house. And you can imagine running that house – it was in the neighborhood. MB: That was right near here back then wasn't it? GR: It was right over here on Wells Avenue. Do you know where First Baptist Church is now? MB: Mm mm. GR: On that same street, there was a church on that corner. I don't remember the name of it, but right across the street was Dr. Paxton's house. And he had a sister, I think it was his sister. She was a truant officer. And she was an old great big thing you know. During school hours, she would be walking the neighborhood and she'd see these kids out of school. She'd carry their buns right back to school. (laughing) And that was her job and she did a good job at it. Kids would see her coming and then – (zooming or revving sound). And she'd see which way they ran. 'Cause some of 'em she'd just grab 'em when she saw 'em and take 'em back to the school they belonged to and then she would report them and all this. But she got the job done. Now I think she probably did a much better job then than they're doing now. Because the schools are so diversified now that you have to have, I don't know how many people they have in the city to do the same job that she was doing in Northwest. Put it this way, she was handling schools that we had in Northwest. What they did in other parts of the city, we had no idea. MB: One of these questions I think is very good is, did your family have stories about memories during the Civil War or about slavery? GR: I never heard anything about it. MB: And what about the businesses and shops that your family went to in your neighborhood. Do you remember them? GR: Wasn't in the neighborhood. The only thing I can remember was a – In Northeast, right around the corner from where I was born was an undertaker. That was called – Can't think of the name – Citizens Undertaking Establishment. MB: Yes. GR: And Roy Clark ran that and across the street from Roy Clark was a building there, I don't remember now what was in it, but the trolley car would come down – up Commonwealth Avenue and 9 �make a right turn on Commonwealth Avenue going down toward the gas house and would end up down there at the end of the line and then the motorman would get out. He would take the trolley down from – You know what a trolley car was? You got an electrical wire here that runs up and down and when you come down in one position and when you get to the end of the line, you take that down and put it up down here to use to go back. I don't know why that was why they did and why they didn't use the same one but they didn't. Now he would have to get out and go back there and hook the thing up to the electrical line up here and there was a Jammerson (??) store. Did you ever hear of Jammerson (??) ? MB: No. GR: Very similar to a Kroger store. That was between the undertaker and our house and then as you come down the street, there was a drug store that was operated – a brand new building that was operated by 2 people that I knew their children. 0.50.05.8 MB: Was that Brooks? GR: No. Brooks was in Northwest. MB: Oh. GR: This was Northeast. And it was called a modern pharmacy. And it was operated by Sam Reed who was a business man and a Beverly Adams. Upstairs over the drug store, they had a Dr. Yancey and a Dr. Hilton, I think. Yancey was a medical doctor and Hilton was a dentist. ______ (??) There was a tailor called Hetsona. He was from overseas or somewhere. He had a big family and he was a mean man too 'cause his children were all afraid of him because he would – if they'd say something to him that he didn't like or whatever, he'd throw coat-hangers and things at 'em, hit 'em in the head or whatever. But he did a good job in tailoring clothes. Then right there around the corner from him was a place called W.D. Powell, a grocery store. And there was a hotel down there too called the Clark Hotel and there was a shoe shop down there. The Clark Hotel only catered to white people who were in that neighborhood. And then there was a shoe shop over there that catered to anybody. And those are the only ones that I can remember in Northeast. Of course, as you come on up toward where you are here now, coming up the street, you know all the people lived over there because the principal of the school that I went to when I first started school lived in that block right below here and her name was Sarah Brown. I remember when – I just never did think that girls could whip boys. The teacher wasn't in the room right then and so we got in a little argument, me and a girl, and I said, “She don't stand a chance”. She grabbed me, “BOOM!” and I was on the floor. I said, “I can't believe this”. I got back up and where is the girl, “BOOM!” on the floor again. That taught me a lesson. I said now girls can fight too. Anyway, he carried me to the office. I don't remember what I did but Miss Brown, she had a strap about that wide and about that thick. “Alright George, stick your hand out there”. So I hold my hand back like this, you know. “Put that hand out here.” “WHACK” But you know, whatever I did, I don't remember what it was but I know that I never did it again. But I never wanted my hand held out like this for a strap to be hitting it like she did my hand. But you know, when you have to discipline children, you have to do things to them that they won't ever forget because you don't want 'em to do the same thing that they did to get whipped this time for. And I learned that a long ago. MB: How old were you when your father built the house on Patton? GR: I don't know. I'm saying I was quite young because I was still at home. Maybe 10 or 12 years old. Something like that. MB: So you all moved up to Patton from 4th Street, let's see, that was before Northeast was torn down. So and then, what do you remember about urban renewal in that first wave of urban renewal in Northeast? 0.54.04.8 GR: The only thing I can remember about it was I remember I went to Gregory School which was down on, I think it was Gilmore Avenue, no, it wasn't Gilmore Avenue Northeast – I forget the name of 10 �the street. 9th Avenue I think they called it and it was a pretty good sized school and they had different rooms and Sarah Brown, like I said, was the principal down there and we were – I'm trying to get it together here now – We – There was another school down there called Gilmer's School which is on Gilmer Avenue and I don't remember ever going to Gilmer but I remember going to Harrison which is up on Harrison Avenue where the school is still there but its not a school anymore. That's where Harrison museum is up there in that building. I went to that school and from there, I went to Addison and I remember Sarah Brown was the principal down at Gregory School. I don't remember now who was the principal at Gilmer because I didn't go there. I don't remember who was the principal at Harrison. But the next one I remember was Mr. Parker. I don't remember his first name. He was the principal at Addison at that time. But, when they had – everybody had to leave from down there, they had – caused one heck of a mess because I remember we had to – I know daddy didn't want to give up this house because it wasn't that old. He had built it. But we all had to leave. MB: Do you remember seeing houses torn down as a child? GR: Yeah, yeah. And you see, my mom – I don't remember whether daddy was still living when we had to move. I don't think daddy was dead by then. I think my momma came up and picked out this house where I'm living in now. But I'm glad she picked out that house because it could've been a whole lot worse because the neighborhood – well, right across the street from me is a church parking lot which I have no problem with at all. There are only 3 houses on the block that are lived in and they try to keep their places up. 'Cause I try to keep my place up. As a matter of fact, the guy just finished putting a new fence up around my house today. That's why I was a little late getting down here 'cause it only took 'em 2 days to – they took down the old fence that I had and replaced it with a new fence and they did an excellent job on it. But, I don't remember now some of the houses that were torn down. It looked like to me, once I left from down there and moved to Northwest, I never went back down there to speak of because there's nothing down there. See 'cause once we left from down there, they started working on the Civic Center and where the Ford Motor Company is now and Sheetz down in that area, right behind St. Andrew's School. I belong to an organization now that we got money from the government – I don't know how they did this thing but it was called – What's the name of that organization? I can't think of it now. I'll remember in a few minutes. We got money to buy that property back there behind – You know where the Holiday Inn is down in there on Gainsboro? MB: Mm mm. GR: All that property down there belongs to the organization that I belong to. MB: Is it Southwest Virginia Redevelopment Fund? GR: That's it. Yep, that's exactly what it was. And they came in and developed all of that land down in there because you've got Old Standard Seal. You've got another place down there that sells lawn and garden stuff. I don't know what these other places have. And then we also had a place, a corrugated box factory over on Cleveland Avenue. These were the good days. We had a furniture factory over in Craig County and some other little businesses. But since that time, we sold the property and we don't have any income from it now anymore because they bought the property and whatever we did with the rest of the money, you had to try another business over here and the business failed. We didn't know that much about operating a business to start with. But I've been in that organization. I'm still on the board down there and I've been on that board for 25 years I guess. And they're still over there in the Lawson Building. You know where that is? MB: Mm mm. GR: Well, you know where it is then because you mentioned it. Stan Hale? MB: Mm mm. Do you remember coming to this library in your youth? GR: Not really. MB: Do you remember Mrs. Lee? 0.59.58.5 11 �GR: Sure, I remember Mrs. Lee. You see the old YMCA over here on Wells Avenue, we got off of that, was right across the street over there over by Dr. Paxton, right up the street was a house that we went to for the Y. You can imagine the size of a backyard that we had to play baseball in, in a neighborhood like this. And all the balls and bats and all, There was a pretty good sized fence around it to keep from knocking the ball out the -. And then we had played dart-ball inside. You know what a dart-ball thing is? MB: No. GR: A diamond shaped thing with all the different bases on there and you throw darts up there and play dart-ball. MB: Oh, OK. GR: Then, subsequently, they had – they moved over onto right across the street over here was the new Y. It was a much nicer place. MB: What do you remember about Henry Street and the Dumas Hotel and did you ever go there and the Ebony Club and all the businesses and entertainment – Did you go to any performances? GR: Not really. I remember when they had functions and things going on over there. I can't remember one that I went to but I was always a friend of the Barlows that owned the hotel and his children. And we would go over there to different things and meals or whatever. I don't remember when all these biggies were coming, these big entertainers? MB: Yeah. GR: I don't remember them – going to any of their functions at all. But I remember going to the movies because you'd pay 10 cents to go in and I remember I always liked to sit on the front seat, front row. So I had to be pretty young at that time. MB: We're running out of time. I just wanted to ask you one more question. How has Gainsboro changed over the years? GR: Gainsboro has changed a lot for the best because you take all the old homes that were over here on Wells Avenue. They're all gone because First Baptist Church is over there now. And the educational center is over there. There has to be some more work done over here because I think that the Claytor place, something needs to be done about that. You know the clinic and the property where the old homeplace used to be. Of course, Stan Hale's office is down there which is OK. But the other changes that have been made and just like this place behind us here, Lily of the Valley. We have some people that did not want them to do anything to Gainsboro and I wrote an article in the paper, I remember that. And I told them that I thought it would be a good idea to do something about it because it was all run down buildings over there. The old YMCA and all of that was over there. And all that stuff needed to be out of there because there were a lot of empty building and whatever. But look at it now. You'd never know it was there. People like Helen, I'm not going to call their names on this thing. These two sisters and another group of two sisters, they were always negative about everything. They looked like they didn't want to see any progress made. It was just what they wanted. They figured that they knew everything about everything. And I wrote an article to the Tribune just a few weeks back and I told them what I thought about it. When they had an article in the Tribune about Henry Street, then I wrote an article about how I felt about it. I told 'em that I felt that the Social Security office would be an asset to Henry Street. I said these people have been over here – its been vacant for 50 years. If they want to do something about it, why did they wait this long. 50 years and nobody has even driven a nail into a 2X4 but they don't want to put this building over here. Well, what are you going to do with the space? They can't afford to put anything up here so what they gonna do about it. And I told 'em in the paper, I said, “Let the City Manager have her way”. And I said, “Let whatever she can do to have them put the Social Security building up there, let 'em do it”. And I was very adamant about that because I felt that it was necessary. I would like to see 'em put a nice restaurant on the first floor that could be for the employees or people in the area or whatever. Whatever they want to do upstairs or whatever it took for 12 �the Social Security building, let's fill up the rest of it. And I put it all in the paper just like Lewis Perry was saying a few minutes ago before we left, “George, that article that you put in the paper. I meant to call you and tell you what a wonderful article I thought it was and just hadn't gotten around to it”. MB: Well, thank you so much. GR: You through with me? MB: Yeah, this is great. GR: (laughing) 13 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2636/RogersGeorge.1.JPG a9b35a2451b6ef2485427b8ef40f23e7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with George E. Rogers Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with George E. Rogers Interviewer: Mary Bishop Date: 12 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:05:27 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource George E. Rogers; Mary Bishop; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RogersGeorge https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2635/Burton_Edward_T._19_Oct_2006.2.mp3 32d48541ccf387a78a24e30e0d47d61a https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2635/Burton.Edward.T.2006.pdf 2eb3062e52fce61df156968a011ed26c PDF Text Text Interviewee: Edward T. Burton Interviewer: Arlene Ollie Transcriber: Andrew Sterling Today is October 19, 2006, and we're about to interview Reverend Edward T. Burton and we are located at the Gainsboro Library. AO: When and where were you born? EB: Not in this area but I have been in this area such a long time. July, 1927, in Baltimore. AO: How long have you lived in the Gainsboro area? EB: In the Gainsboro area for 47 years, maybe almost 48. AO: What streets have you lived on? EB: Well, I haven't actually lived in Gainsboro. I lived in Rugby but my contact has been in the Gainsboro area because I serve the church that's located in the immediate area. So its been an everyday trip to Gainsboro. AO: I guess we'll start with a little background for you. Tell me about your parents and siblings if you have any. EB: I have one sister and we grew up in South Richmond. It has been interesting to compare some things of my growing up with things in Gainsboro. AO: What kind of activities did you participate in? EB: You mean activities as a child growing up? AO: Yes. EB: In elementary school, there were not a whole lot of activities other than playing in the fields and that type of thing. When I got to high school, there were such things as the debating team and the shop-work that I did and I actually played in a high school band. Those were some of the things that I did once I got to high school. AO: That's great. What kind of work did your family do? EB: My mother taught school before my father and mother got married and my father was a laborer and so after they got married, she did not continue to work and so, that was the kind of home that I grew up in, or started out in anyway. AO: I've forgotten, what year did you come to Gainsboro? 0.02.58.1 EB: 1959. I first had my first visit here in 1958 and actually moved in early 1959. AO: Did you meet Mrs. Virginia Y. Lee? EB: Of course, Mrs. Lee was very active and living when I actually moved here so I did meet her and see her in the library and sort of followed her through and visited her in her last days when she was over at Friendship Manor. And so, she was somebody that I may have not grown up with but somebody that I did know during some of her active days and her last days. AO: That's great. Describe cultural events that have happened in Gainsboro since you've been here. EB: Well, that's one of the things that I guess I could talk about all day. But when I moved to Roanoke, Roanoke was really a segregated society and I have been here long enough to see the integration of school and the other things that have happened. I remember Henry Street in full bloom when I came here and the Virginia Theater and I have been here to see a kind of change, I mean a lot of change from the redevelopment which was called urban renewal and the people who were actually moved called that “Negro removal”. It has been through all of these changes since the '50s and through the '60s that I have been here long enough to see. It is very much a different place from the place I moved when I came here. AO: Do you want to elaborate on perhaps some of the differences that you – anything stand out that you recall? �EB: I don't know if anything stands out but there have been just so many changes. The movement of the people further up into Northwest. It still remains a segregated city so far as I'm concerned but there has been a lot of moving out and there has been a lot of integration. I suppose the big thing has been the school integration but probably the thing that I've noticed more than anything else is public accommodations. We were very much restricted to certain restaurants and that type of thing and I remember the first experiences in going into some of the restaurants and hotels that we had not been able to go into. This is a kind of a thing of the past now but they stand out vividly in my mind because its so far different from the Gainsboro and the Roanoke that I moved to in 1959. AO: Mm mm. Who were some of the strong community leaders during your time here? EB: I can't call off-hand because I don't think that fast but some few names that come to my mind is Dr. Penn, who did a tremendous job when he went down and bought some tickets to the theater – not to the – to the stadium and the stadium was segregated and he bought the tickets. And he got 'em because he was light-skinned and he got some people in, in a kind of trick-thing like that. I'm sure that in the history of the movement here, Reverend R. R. Wilkinson who led the NAACP through the '60s is a person who stands out probably more than anybody else. He was really the leader in his day and time but he didn't do that by himself. There were some other people who worked along with him. There were some people whose names don't really stand out but – Some teachers who led in the first integrated schools that they went and taught in. But these are a couple of the people whose names stand out so far as I'm concerned. If I had a little time to think about it, I probably could just as easily name some others like Dr. Law and so on. AO: As a youth/young adult, who were your role models? EB: Well, as I grew up, the pastor of my church in South Richmond was really my role model. And I remember from a boy, even though I was not born in South Richmond, we moved there when I was about 6 or 7 years old and I grew up in that community and I'm sure that the preacher in my church, Reverend Ransom was really my role model. As well as my father who I am really proud of because he was not one of those dead-beat dads. I didn't hear about that until I got grown. He supported his family. It may not have been outstanding but he took care of me and my sister as a father would be expected so I suppose – My aunt actually raised me and she did well and I kind of admire her. These are some of the people who were closest to me. 0.09.18.8 AO: How was your life affected by segregation and by the civil rights movement? EB: As a boy, I really did not understand that I was living in a segregated society because all I saw was – the only people I saw were the people in my community. As I got a little older, I began to realize that there was a real separation where I grew up and of course that same kind of separation existed here in Roanoke. As I began to really see some differences not only in the community but once I went in the Army, I became more and more aware of a kind of inferior society in which I was living and it made me want to join in and maybe not lead the movement but really give as much support as I possibly could to those people who were leading movements to make it a much better society in which to live. AO: You've already touched on urban renewal, “Negro removal”. EB: Yeah, that was what they called it. And there are some negative and positive things to say about it. Many times, people who were homeowners were reduced to renters because what they got for their homes was not not enough to start and buy again. But on the other hand, it did get rid of some of the slums that we had too. So, there were – I think its a good thing, its just the way that it was carried out. AO: Would you talk a little bit about your school life. For instance, where did you attend school? Did you walk to school? Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? EB: Well, as I said, I did not actually attend school in the Gainsboro area but its interesting that I should kind of be a part of this because I can kind of compare what I did with what went on here in Roanoke. We lived in South Richmond and I lived about 6 blocks or something like that from the elementary school that I attended. Once I came to high school in the segregated society, then I had to �travel across town to the high school. We did not have access to school buses so special school tickets were issued to the children to ride, at a reduced fare, the regular city buses across town. So, this is the kind of public school situation that I – Its interesting that I grew up in a time when things were moving. I always had African-American teachers but in high school nor elementary school did I even attend the school that had an African-American principal. I can remember the books also that we used were handed down from the white schools. I knew that because everybody who had a book had to sign for it and those signatures were in the books and so we used the books that were passed down from the other schools. I'm sure that that's different now but that's much of what – and even though I grew up with that in the capital city, I'm sure the same process went on here in Roanoke and the Gainsboro area. AO: I can assure you of that. How much schooling did you complete? EB: I spent almost all of my life in school and sometimes when I think about it, I'm embarrassed to tell it but once I came out of high school, I went to Virginia Union for a little while, dropped out to join the Army – Later came back to do my college and seminary work at Virginia Union. I completed a degree from the Rice Seminary in Jacksonville, Florida. As well as doing some other studies at the Lutheran Seminary in Columbia, South Carolina. As well as taking some courses at Virginia State College and Roanoke College. So, that's been just about all of my life in school, one way or another. AO: Did anyone else in your family attend college? EB: Yeah, my mother attended and its a question of how I could answer that, “Did my mother actually attend college?”. She came along at a time when Virginia State University was an industrial, normally an industrial school and so she completed that at that particular time and that's what people did in that time. My aunt who raised me went to Heartsong (??) Memorial College. And my sister and I finished college. My sister attended Lawrenceville – St. Paul is the name of the school and she did her Master's at Howard. We came from a small family and that's all of my family. AO: You did say that you served in the military. Did you fight in a war? EB: Not only did I not fight in a war, I'm convinced that I would not have survived fighting in the war. I came into the military at a time when World War II was coming to an end and at that time, Japan had gave its surrender and I went overseas with the occupational forces. So, I was part of the occupying army in Japan. By that time, except for maybe small skirmishes, the actual fighting was over. Had I been there, I think I would not have actually done any fighting. My experience in that line was standing guard duty but my major responsibility overseas was playing with the 15th Army Ground Force Band. I played in high school band and when Japan surrendered and the troops went there, they formed the Army Bands to play in Japan and I was a part of that. AO: That's interesting. I don't think I've known anyone else who has ever done that. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you'd like to share with us? EB: I really think not. I just feel like its an honor to be a part of this interview. I kind of think that its for people who have grown up in the Gainsboro area but I occupy a kind of peculiar position in the history of how churches in the Gainsboro area – No preacher has ever preached at one church for 47 years as I have done and that means that I came here a long time ago and have watched many of the people who would talk about how they have grown up. I have watched them grow up and so, I have a kind of peculiar position so far as being identified with Gainsboro people. I've been among them so long and I've said that I want to buy one other piece of property while I'm here and that's a grave plot which means that that's where I intend to be the rest of my life. AO: So we have permanently adopted you into this community. And you have been an asset. And I truly appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to let us interview you. EB: And I thank you and I apologize again for just overlooking – I had that written down and the secretary had that on the book and she should've reminded me. So I apologize to you and thank you for not being angry for having to wait an hour for me. AO: I appreciate it. I truly appreciate the time. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2635/Burton_Edward_T._19_Oct_2006.1.jpg db419da535e55f2687aebbf650b7b39b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Edward T. Burton Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Edward T. Burton Interviewer: Arleen Ollie Date: 19 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 18:59 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 19 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edward T. Burton; Arleen Ollie; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BurtonEdward https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2634/Reynolds_Earl_Jr._[compressed].mp3 a02292c1c0eeedc30c083242d58c694f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2634/ReynoldsEarl.pdf aace6cd5e97c5638cd299c64b4abd6e0 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Earl Reynolds, Jr. Interviewer: Carla Lewis Transcriber: Andrew Sterling My name is Carla Lewis and I am the Gainsboro Branch Manager. Today is October 12, 2006. The person that I am interviewing is Mr. Earl Reynolds, Jr. and the location is the Gainsboro Branch Library. CL: The first question is, when and where were you born? ER: I was born April 7, 1951, right here in Roanoke, Virginia at Burrell Memorial Hospital. CL: How long have you lived in the Gainsboro area? ER: All of my life. From the time I was born until the time I left to go to college which was around 1969 and then back and forth throughout my professional working career. CL: Can you tell us the name of the streets that you lived on when you were in the Gainsboro area? ER: I've only lived in one location, 331 Harrison Avenue. CL: Tell me about your parents, your brothers and sisters. ER: Well, my dad is Earl B. Reynolds, Sr. and he was an entrepreneur in the Gainsboro community. He was a barber and owned his own barber shop which was located on Henry Street in the Gainsboro community. He moved the barber shop there from Park Street which is still in the greater Gainsboro community. Most folks know it today as 5th Street. My mom is Clara Francis Ferguson Reynolds, deceased. She was a Franklin County native. My dad met her when she was just a teenager and courted her and waited for her to grow up and then he married her. I have 1 sister, Shirley Jean Reynolds who still lives with my dad at 331 Harrison Avenue in the Gainsboro community. CL: Did you have extended family living with you when you were living on Harrison Avenue in the Gainsboro area? ER: Yes I did. Most of the folks who lived in the Gainsboro community were nuclear in terms of family relationships. There were grandmas and granddads and aunts and uncles all living together in the same household. Now in my household, there was my dad, mom, my sister, myself and my dad's mother and father, Guy Reynolds and Georgie Reynolds. CL: Describe your house for us? For instance, was it brick and did you have a large garden? That kind of thing. ER: The house is brick. It was built in 1921 by my uncle, Aby Reynolds who was the first president and obviously a member of the founding group of the Roanoke Branch of the NAACP. And he worked for the railroad. He was a Pullman porter. He also was a barber. He taught my dad the barbering business when he was a kid and brought him along and, when he passed away, he willed the house to my dad as well as the barber business. CL: What kind of activities did you participate in? ER: Oh boy. There was a lot to do in the community. From a school perspective, there were like afterschool programs. There was the Gainsboro Branch Library. There was the Hunton (??) YMCA. There were activities sponsored by the community churches and other groups and organizations. So, we stayed pretty busy. CL: What kind of work have you done throughout your life? ER: Well, my dad, at the age of 5, decided to bring me slowly into the business. So at the age of 5, he started to take me over to the barber shop and allow me to do such things as sweep the floor, shine shoes, those kinds of things. Of course, I was kinda short and I was really pudgy. I was a heavy little kid. So, back in those days, the sodas were in bottles. They came in bottles. One of the famous sodas, of course, was Coke and my dad had a Coke machine in the barber shop and they would always bring the bottles in these wooden crates. So, I would take the bottles out of the crates and I would stack the 1 �crates up so I could stand on them to do things like wash the windows, the mirrors in the barber shop so the barbers could see what they were doing and things like that. As I got older, I established a very successful shoe shine business on Henry Street. If you ask most people who came along during the time that I did, they would say that one of their memories would be of getting their shoes shined in my dad's barber shop. One of my memories is shining the shoes of famous entertainers that stayed at the Hotel Dumas. One in particular was James Brown. He brought his revue to town and they were playing the Star City Auditorium which was located on Henry Street and I guess I was about 7 or 8 years old. And he came out of the hotel with his entourage, you know, his valets and bodyguards and all those people. And right across the street from the hotel was my dad's barber shop and next door to my dad's barber shop was Kaiser's Music Shop/Record Shop that served primarily the black community although they had customers from all over town. And the first place he went was in the record shop. And he actually signed an autographed picture for the owners who were Mr. and Mrs. Kaiser. Napoleon and Louise Kaiser owned and operated that business. So he signed a picture for them. And they had this big display board in the record shop where they displayed the pictures of all the entertainers that came in and had the signatures on the pictures. And, obviously, he wanted to find out how his record sales were going for certain records that he had out on the market at that time. Then he left there and he came in the barber shop. Well, he had his own personal valet so he didn't need a haircut. They took care of him from head to toe. And he did not need a shoe shine. But, when he was growing up, he shined shoes and so he looked at me and he said, “Would you shine my shoes?”. And I looked at his shoes and I said, “But they don't need to be shined”. And he looked at me and he says, “Well just shine them anyway”. And so he got up on my shoeshine stand and I shined his shoes all over again and he got down and he looked at me and he said, “Thank you very much”. And he said, “What do you want to be when you grow up?”. And I said, “I don't know yet”. And he said, “Stay in school. Get your education.”. And he handed me a 5 dollar bill. Now, in those days, this was like 1958/1959, $5 was a lot of money. And so his entourage took him out and he went back to the hotel and, of course, he prepared himself for his show that night. Extremely, extremely impressive man, very business-like, very organized. When they arrived on Henry Street, it was a – He arrived in a spectacular way. They arrived on Henry Street with about 8 brand new travel buses. The band, his entourage, the other entertainers that performed with him, all traveled in those buses. And, of course, he had his own bus, his very own bus that had his bedroom and his bathroom and his dressing room and all those things. They parked those buses on Henry Street and that was just some kind of sight to behold when they came across Henry Street. People just came out of the shops. I mean, the world just stopped, you know, when the James Brown Revue arrived on Henry Street. 0.10.17.9 CL: Earl, what kind of work have you done throughout your life? You started telling us about your shoeshine business and all the different things that you've done, continue your life. Bring us forth. ER: Well, one of the things that you learn by hanging around the barber shop is the work ethic and everybody worked. There was – If you didn't work, people kinda looked at you like, “What's the problem” because everyone could get a job doing something. So I worked at my dad's barber shop shining shoes. He taught me how to cut hair, although I never professionally cut hair. I would “bootleg it” as they call it. I would cut hair after 5 o'clock and it was generally just be my closest friends. I worked at Kaiser's Record Shop right next door to my dad's barber shop. I also worked a couple of other places on Henry Street just doing odd jobs for some of the other business people. I worked at a hardware store selling Christmas trees during the Christmas holiday. Now I did that in addition to working in my dad's barber shop. During the winter months – The weather/climate has changed a lot here in Roanoke but in the winter months, we always had snow. We had lots of snow. Of course, the shoe shine business kinda got put on hold. So you've got to find something else to do to supplement your income. So working at the hardware store was like supplementing my income during the winter 2 �months. One of my primary jobs was in December and I would organize the Christmas tree lot and this was right on Shenandoah Avenue, still in the greater Gainsboro community. I would organize the Christmas tree lot. I would receive the trees, the shipments when they came in and I would sell 'em. I was pretty good at it. (chuckle) Every year, they would call me and they said, “Do you want to work in December?” and I said, “Yeah”. Whatever you could do to earn money. When I was in high school, I worked for the City of Roanoke and that was back in the days when they weren't all that particular, I don't guess, about ages and all that kind of thing. So I worked for Public Works, the Sanitation Division and that's how I learned the city was from the back of a garbage truck. I ran every route in the city. I knew every street. I knew every alley. I knew every nook and cranny in the city and I did that all the way through college. As a matter of fact, I did it for 3 months after I finished college because I came home, my degree was in education. I wanted to teach but they didn't have any teaching positions. And again, everybody works. You don't sit around the house. And so, I didn't have a car so I got on my bicycle and I rode down to the Public Works Division and I saw the foreman that I had worked with for years. His name was Melvin Matthews and I said, “Melvin, I need a job”. He said, “But Earl, you just finished college”. I said, “Melvin, I need a job”. And he said, “I will let you work only if you promise that you'll get out there and find a job, something in line with your education”. And I said, “Deal.”. So I worked for Melvin for about 2 ½ months and then I was hired at the Norfolk and Western Railroad in the Car Records Office right over here on Jefferson Street. And I only worked for them for 30 days and I got a letter from the State University of New York at Albany. It had kinda found me. They sent the letter to my old address in Fayetteville, North Carolina, where I went to undergraduate school. And they had to kinda find me. It finally made its way back here to Roanoke and it said, “If you're still interested in coming to graduate school, come on, you've got a full scholarship and a stipend” So I went to my supervisor at the railroad and I said, “I'm leaving.”. And he tried to talk me into staying because back in those days, railroad jobs were gold. People fought for those jobs and I was voluntarily giving up a railroad job. He said, “Your next step is to go into the management program”. He said, “The sky's the limit. Stay with the railroad.” I said, “Bye.”. And so I packed my bags again and, again, this was a family thing. My mother and her two brothers drove me to Albany, New York because my mother – Because they had a sister - Still have a sister that lives in Brooklyn, New York. So, they kinda made it a family thing. They took me to school, dropped me off and then they went down to Brooklyn to visit their sister and then they came back to Roanoke. And that was quite an experience. 0.16.38.9 CL: After graduating from graduate school ER: I came back to Roanoke and I went to work for George Franklin at the OICs of America which was located under the, I think it was the east-end of the old Victory Stadium complex. I worked for George for about a year. I learned a lot there working for him. George was a very enterprising person. His executive assistant was the late Greta Evans. That's when I first met Greta. His complex manager was Mr. John Divers who's still living. Mr. Divers has been with me part of my life for a number of years. We are related and my memory of him was he was the head maintenance person at Booker T. Washington Junior High School. He worked for the school system. Back in those days, the staff, the support staff at the schools were an integral part of the school family and they would get involved in discipline and coaching and mentoring and all different kinds of things. I recall seeing him everyday and his only question was, “Are you behaving yourself?”. And I said, “Yes sir.”. And he said, “OK.” because I know he'd tell my mom if I wasn't. So anyway, Mr. Divers worked there and many other people who lived in or who had roots in the Gainsboro community. I worked for George for a year and then I left and went to Martinsville, Virginia, to become a Criminal Justice Planner for the West Piedmont Planning District Commission. This was like 1975. I worked for the Planning District Commission from 1975 until 1978. In December, 1978, I returned to Roanoke to become the Human 3 �Resources Planner for the City of Roanoke. From there, I became the Chief of Community Planning and from there, I became the Assistant City Manager and then I left Roanoke again after 14 ½ years with the city. I left Roanoke in February of '92 to become the City Manager of Martinsville, Virginia. I thought I would only do that for a couple of years and then maybe come back to Roanoke or some other community and I ended up staying in Martinsville 3 months shy of 12 years. So, I had a pretty long run there. So, I arrived back in Roanoke in December – December seems to be a month for me – I arrived back in Roanoke in December, 2003, to assume the post of Deputy Executive Director of the Roanoke Redevelopment and Housing Authority. So, I'm back. 0.20.35.4 CL: Let's talk a little bit about your school life. You told us about some of the education that you have had, but let's go back to elementary school and talk a little bit about the schools that you attended. ER: Great time. Good people. Again, very community oriented, community focused because the teachers and the support staff either lived in or had roots in the Gainsboro community. First grade, Mrs. Turpin. Second grade, Mrs. Turpin. Third grade, Mrs. Clark. Fourth grade, Mrs. Stovall, Elaine Stovall. Fifth grade, Mrs. Holland. Sixth grade, Mrs. Patterson. And, of course, there were other instructors involved in my education as well. Memorable among those was a gentleman by the name of John Dillon and Mrs. McCatt (??)who taught Home Economics and in her class, I made my mother an apron. My mother is deceased now but that apron is still at 331 Harrison Avenue in the drawer. And every now and then, I get it out and look at it. Then Booker T. Washington Junior High School – By the way, the schools were positioned so we could walk. There was no busing. So I walked to Harrison. I walked to Booker T. Booker T. was 7th, 8th, and 9th grade. Back in those days, again, junior high school, they don't call it that anymore. A place, kind of an incubator. The Principal was Mr. Sid Norr. The Vice Principal was Mr. Austin who also lived on Harrison Avenue in Gainsboro. So he was like right down the street. Teachers that I recall of note, Mrs. Allen, Mrs. Moore, Mrs. Poindexter/Eunice Poindexter. I took speech and grammar and I shall never forget the first day in her class. She was an elegant lady and a very well-spoken lady. She looked at us and she said, “Class, my name is Mrs. Poindexter”. And she said, “Repeat that”. And the entire time I was in her class, the thing that she stressed was that you have to have a mastery of the King's English. She was – Anyway, she made a big impression on me. The late Mr. Perry was a homeroom teacher of mine as well as a Science teacher. Mrs. Coleman, Sally T. Coleman. Mrs. Ennis (??) taught me French. You know you always leave out somebody but there are many, many others. Mr. Chubb, I was in his class. He would often-times say, “Reynolds, see me after school.”. I was in his after-school class for cutting up sometimes. A memory there is in Lincoln Terrace, now called the Villages at Lincoln. But in the Lincoln Terrace community, there was a store, called Neighbors Confectionery and family-owned, Mr. and Mrs. Neighbors. They had the best hot dogs in the city, at least we thought so. We planned the great escape. It was about 6 of us and we planned a circuitous route to the store at lunch time so we could have hot dogs and in order to get back to the next class and not be missed or detected. Now, of course, there were a lot of eyes around the school, one of them being – The biggest hurdle we had was to get past John Divers. John Divers was always watching to make sure that kids weren't leaving the campus when they weren't supposed to. Somehow or another, we thought we got past Mr. Divers. He saw us and reported it to the office and Mr. Austin, Lloyd Austin, shows up at the store. We had just finished eating those hot dogs and he walks in and he's got the “board of education”. And he says, “OK, get out here and line up”. And so we came out of the store and we lined up. And he walked us back down that hill into the office where we got a paddling for being off campus and then we had to sit there while each parent was called. My mother and dad worked. So, my dad had to leave the barber shop and come get me because I got suspended for the remainder of the day. And, needless to say, that was not something that I wanted to have to face my dad to account for that. So, the hot dogs were good but, it was a terrible price to pay for what happened after that. Then from Booker T., - Let me make sure I didn't forget 4 �anybody from Booker T. (pause) - Mr. Jones had a business in the community, he was a brick layer but he was also a Shop teacher at Booker T. There were two Shop teachers. One was Mr. Atkinson and he taught woodworking and that kind of thing and then there was another Shop teacher that taught us the masonry trade, how to work with concrete and bricks and that kind of thing. He also had a business where he did that for contractors and I will think of his name is just a minute. Moving on to Lucy Addison High School. That was a big deal. I got to take you back to when I was a kid, sitting on the sidewalk in front of the house on Harrison Avenue, 4 or 5 years old. The highlight of the day, I'd get up every morning just to sit out there and watch the kids walk to Lucy Addison because that was a goal. That was a dream to attend Lucy Addison High School. They were always well-dressed, books in hand. Some of the young men carried the young ladies books, those kinds of things. You would just sit there and you would just marvel. You just couldn't wait to grow up to go to Lucy Addison. The other thing that kind of charged your senses was during the day – Now we're at home, we're not even old enough to go to school, we're 4 or 5 years old – But during the day, the late Joe Finley (??) was the band director at Lucy Addison and he developed a band that was second to none. They actually played half-time at a pro football game in New York. My cousin was 1st Trumpet and I actually got to see him play on national TV. They would practice during the day and you could hear them all over the community. We would just wait and when we would hear the drums strike up, everybody sat down just to listen to that band and during Christmas, they led the Roanoke City Christmas Parade every year, every year. And people would just wait to see the Lucy Addison High School band. And people would throw money at them when they marched down the street. They would actually throw money at 'em. Of course, Mr. Finley was a very smart and enterprising man and after that happened the first year, the second year he was prepared. He had students that came behind the band with these buckets that picked up the money. (chuckle) And the money, of course, was used for instruments and to do other things at the school. You arrive at Lucy Addison and, of course, you're either going to play in the band, sing in the choir. They had also a tremendous choir that toured all over Virginia and outside of Virginia. Or you played football or basketball. Well, I was a football player. And so, the principal was - The late John Powers was the Assistant Principal, one of the assistant principals. Mr. Coleman was an assistant principal. But Mr. - I'll remember it in a minute. Husa Day (??) was my homeroom teacher – One of my homeroom teachers. It was Mr. uh – When I graduated, the principal was Julian Moore. But when I started – I'll think of it in a minute. I knew it just a few minutes ago when I was talking about Mr. Atkinson and the others over at Booker T. He was a great community leader, very active in the Hunton YMCA. I'll get it in a second. There was a whole entourage of teachers at Lucy Addison. Again, I mentioned Mr. Day was my homeroom teacher for several years. The late John Powell, Mr. Skipper, the late Bernard Brown who was our football coach, Joe Morman football coach and also Physical Education and Health instructor. The late Irving Cannaday (??) who also was in the football/basketball program/Health/Physical Education and Science teacher. Mrs. Dorothy Whitton (??) who is still living across the street from Burrell Memorial Hospital. She taught me Algebra and Mr. - I'll never forget – He taught me English, Grammar and Composition. I can see his face and I just saw him a couple of days ago. 0.33.35.4 CL: Earl, don't worry about it. How much schooling did any other person in your household complete? ER: My dad finished Lucy Addison High School – The old Lucy Addison High School which was Booker T. And then, of course, the high school we know as Lucy Addison sits up on the hill there on Orange Avenue was not built and opened until 1951. Everyone went to the old high school. My mom did not finish high school. She eventually got her GED around 1965 or 1966. My sister did not finish high school. She eventually got her GED and then went on to get her Associates from National Business College. 5 �CL: OK, I wanted to talk about your home life a little bit. Describe your home life. For instance, did you gather around the radio, the TV or when did you get the radio, TV, telephone. Describe some of the things that happened in your household. ER: That was a time that you related to your grandparents. They did a lot of the child rearing because mom and dad worked. My grandmother was always there. Everybody called her Aunt Georgie and she was the king of what I call the tea towel. Back in the day, the older women would have this kitchen towel that they called a teal towel. They always kept it on their shoulder because she was always washing dishes or had her hands wet or whatever and then she'd grab this towel and dry her hands. Well, because the towel stayed moist or damp, it was also a treacherous weapon against kids. Whenever we got out of line, she would just pop you with that towel. That would get you back in line real quick. She – I recall sitting with her and listening to the radio and I remember listening to Richard Nixon and he was Vice President of the United States at that time. The President of the United States was Dwight Eisenhower. I remember listening to them talk about Korea and what was going on in Korea at that time. My grandfather obviously was an avid radio listener. That's what he grew up with was radio, Guy Reynolds, and I remember listening to certain old radio shows with him, Amos and Andy, The Shadow and those old shows that came on the radio. Also, there was always professional boxing on the radio. I remember listening to the fight between Floyd Patterson was fighting somebody – Sugar Ray Robinson and Dick Tiger, those boxers back in the '50s and you listened to them on the radio. Probably the most dramatic thing I saw on TV – We had an old black and white RCA with the rabbit ears with aluminum foil on them – I saw with my grandmother and grandfather sitting there – saw the funeral of John Kennedy. I also saw the march on Washington and ML King's “I Have A Dream” speech. I remember seeing that. 0.40.19.3 CL: Do you remember your parents sitting on the front porch after dinner talking to the neighbors or just talking to the children? Could you elaborate on that just a little bit for us. ER: Well my mother was the community welcome wagon. She was known as the surrogate parent for all the kids. A lot of kids stayed at my house all the time. The door was always swinging. In the evenings, I remember sitting out – Dad was always gone. - But I remember sitting out on the porch with my mom – Well, early years, sitting out on the porch with my grandmother and grandfather and then once my sister and I got to be teenagers, they moved. Because, you see, there were only 3 bedrooms in the house and my grandparents had a bedroom. My sister and I had a bedroom and then, of course, my mom and dad. Well, once we got to be teenagers, my grandparents said, “They need their own rooms.”. So they moved right behind us, right across the alley on Rutheford Avenue so my sister and I could have our own bedrooms. Then I recall sitting out with my mom and the neighbors next door and they would just talk and have these conversations about life and what was going on and those kinds of things. 'Cause back in those days, children were seen and not heard so you would sit and you would listen to these adult conversations but you never opened your mouth. That's kinda how you learned things was to listen. CL: Do you ever remember hearing a story about the Civil War or slavery or recipes or stories that were passed down from generation to generation to generation? ER: Yes. CL: You do remember that? ER: My grandmother and grandfather, they were from Patrick County. They were born and raised in Patrick County. My daddy was born in Patrick County and raised there until my grandparents moved to Roanoke. I recall my grandfather talking about working on a farm in Patrick County and actually witnessing Klu Klux Klan activity and he and some of his friends – You know, again, my granddaddy would take me with him downtown on the city market and he and some of his friends would stand around and talk and, again, I'm standing there and you listen, you don't get involved with the 6 �conversation, you'd just stand there. I recall them talking about Klan activity and they referred to them as the “Kluxers”. And they would say, “I understand that the Kluxers did this, that and the other in some community”. And somebody would say, “Yeah, I heard about that too.”. And, of course, back then, I'm trying to figure out – Kluxers, Kluxers, what are they talking about? - because you dare not ask. You would just be quiet. And I also heard my grandmother talking about her experience growing up. She came from a large family and when the girls got to be 9 or 10 years old, they knew how to keep house. They knew how to take care of younger siblings, etc. And I remember her telling me that her mother, that she was asked for. I said, “What does that mean?” That means that there was a prominent lady in the community – white lady – who needed help and had heard that my grandmother was good with children and knew how to keep house and that kind of thing. So she went to my grandmother's mother and said, “Can I have Georgie Mildred?”. And they worked out the arrangement and then she went to live with this lady and helped raise her children and keep her house. She said she ran away because the lady was mean to her and she went home. She ran back home and the lady came back and she said her mother said, “No, you can't have Georgie because you were mean to her”. And that was a big thing back then to say no, particularly to a prominent family in the community, Caucasian family in the community. So I do remember her talking about that. 0.45.28.5 CL: Did you, your spouse, siblings or children serve in the military? ER: No. Back during the days of Vietnam, I was in college. Now, I was subject to the draft but I think it was two things that kept me out of the draft. Number one, I was in college. And number two, I was my dad's only son. And back then, they would put you in a special category if you were the only surviving male in the family. CL: What is your fondest childhood memory? ER: Probably Christmas in Gainsboro. It was just spectacular, the decorations – You know, again, the climate has changed quite a bit, global warming or whatever they want to call it. I mean, we really had winters and they would most of the time, somewhere around Christmas, there would be snowfall. So, just gearing up for the holiday season, the cooking, the smells, the community and church activities around the holidays were always very, very nice. CL: What are some of your memories of the Gainsboro Library? ER: Oh boy. (chuckling) Mrs. Lee who also lived on Harrison Avenue. She lived about 5 houses down from me and I would see her every day. She would walk to work, of course, down Harrison Avenue right over here to the library and the many, many programs that she initiated for us. More particularly, the reading programs. That was her number one thing is that, if you're going to survive – If you can't read, you can't learn. And so, she was very regimented about that and created a lot of programs to entice us, to encourage us to read. One of the programs that I recall was what we called the “Gold Star Program”. Every time you read so many books, you got a gold star. And it was on the board right over here. She had a board and she had all the kids names on it. And whenever you read so many books, you'd get a gold star. And then at the end of a certain reading period, whoever had the most stars would get some type of recognition. Of course, I was very competitive so I was always trying to hang in there and win that prize, whatever it was. That door would swing every day. I'd be in here every day. And she said, “Earl, are you sure you read these books?”. And I said, “Yes ma'am”. And she said, “Come over here.”. Now see, you learned the librarian reads also. And the books that I would select, she would always, either she had read them or she had some knowledge of them and so she would talk to me about the books to make sure that I wasn't cheating. That I had actually read these books. And see, the word gets around that Mrs. Lee is going to ask you about these books. So you can't just read the first chapter and the last chapter and take the book back to the library. You know, you've got to read it from cover to cover. Just coming down here and being exposed to that kind of mentoring meant a lot to all of us here in the community. And again, right across the street was the 7 �Hunton Y and there was Mr. Heller who I recall was one of the managers over there and he looked out for us and created activities for us as well. One of my coaches – I guess you would call it Little league football coaches, a gentleman by the name of Sammy Davis also worked there at the Y and, of course, Mr. Keeling, the late Mr. Keeling, who also did a lot to further the programs there at the Y and to try to move it to another level by joining with the main Y downtown. I think that happened during his administration as well. 0.50.41.8 CL: Earl, I remember when you had a daughter. She was very little and you came to the library and we could not believe you brought your daughter to the same library that you grew up in and the age that she was. She was still in diapers and she was still in the carrying case. Tell us about that. And right today, Ashley comes in, she's a law student now but when she comes home for the weekends, more than likely, Ashley is here in the library. ER: That's right. CL: Getting books, reading books. So, I think you started that a long time ago. Could you elaborate on that just a little bit because of my experience? ER: When she was old enough to take her out into the community, I always took her with me everywhere I went. That was back in the days before mandatory child safety seats and all that kind of thing. (chuckling) So she rode right in the front seat of the car with me right up on the arm rest and I would bring her here to the library because I wanted her to get accustomed to books, to learning, that whole process of learning. One of my fondest memories is taking her up to Harrison Elementary School. Now this was before Mrs. Thompson mounted her campaign to have the school renovated which now houses the Harrison Museum of African-American history. So, when I took her up there to the schoolyard, the school was vacant, abandoned and run-down. I sat her there in the schoolyard and told her the story of Harrison Elementary School. And what it meant to me and the community and why it was important that we do something with that building to make sure that that story continued to be told. So, ever since – I had heard someplace, I don't know where, maybe I read it, that infants are just incubators for learning. And even though they can't talk, if you talk to them, they understand. So, from the time Ashley was born, I talked to her. I would tell her stories and I would take her places and I could see that she was just like a sponge. She was absorbing this stuff and so I just kept doing it. 0.53.24.3 CL: OK. We just have one or two more questions and I would just like to ask, who were some of your role models or community leaders when you grew up? You mentioned quite a few of them, but did you have one or two in particular that you said, “This is my role model”? ER: Well, there were just so many folks in the community. First of all, the older gentlemen in the community irrespective of their jobs, were always very well-dressed so that kind of set the tone for us. It wasn't about this walking around holding your pants up kind of stuff. It was all about presentation. How you present yourself. And by the way, a real quick story on that. When I first got back here from college, and was having a difficult time finding a job, one of my drawbacks was I didn't have a car. I had an education, no car. I was riding around on the bus trying to go to places and get employment. So, I remember something my daddy told me. My daddy always told me, “Even though you don't have any money, you don't have to look like it”. So I put a suit and tie on and I went downtown to the bank and I saw the loan officer, a gentleman by the name of Joe Judy. I said, “Mr. Judy, I don't have a job yet. I'm having difficulty finding a job because of transportation. I need a car.” And he looked at me and he said – He wrote down a name and he said, “See this gentleman up at the Buick place”, which was at that time, it was located across from Jefferson High School on West Campbell Avenue. And so I went up there, and I gave him that note, and he said, “Yes, Mr. Judy called and said you were on the way.” And he said, “Do you see something that you like?”. And they had this 1973 Buick Riviera sitting on the showroom floor. And I said, “Yeah, I like that car right there”. And the price tag on it at 8 �that time, a brand-new Buick back in those days, was $5,400. That was a lot of money. And he said, “Come on into the office”. And he wrote it up and he got on the phone and he called Judy and in an hour, he gave me the keys. He said, “That's your car”. I didn't even have a job. But what Mr. Judy told me, he said, “You've got potential.”. And he said, “I knew that you would be able to pay these notes after you got a job.” That's also a story that relates to local banking, home town banking as opposed to the banking that we have today. The bankers knew everybody in the community and so they were able to do those kinds of things to help families and individuals which is kind of tough today because the banking industry has changed so much. But anyway, I was the recipient of that as well as the recipient of the good advice of my father that, “Because you don't have any money, you don't have to look like it”. Now back to the original question and that was other folks in the community who were like role models. Mr. and Mrs. Barlow at the Dumas Hotel. They were a very outstanding family in the community and particularly Mrs. Barlow took a lot of time to mentor the young people. And she came in contact with us because at the Dumas Hotel, there was a malt shop, if you want to call it that, and it was called Jack and Jill, named after her daughters. And we all went in there and she had an opportunity to interact with us, and encourage us with our education and our behavior. You know, “I saw you doing this the other day. Don't you do that any more.”. That kind of thing. Mr. and Mrs. Kaiser of Kaiser's record shop. Business people as Mrs. Kaiser was just a tremendous lady. She also taught me the value of reading. She would just read, read, read. Her husband worked at the VA Medical Center but he was also an entrepreneur. He owned the record shop. So that teaches you, again, the work ethic. That you've got to work for what you get. There was another gentleman who owned the Palace Hotel on Henry Street. His name was Billy Salters. We called him Uncle Billy. His business was the Jukebox business. Back in the day, you had the jukeboxes with the records in them. You would pay your money and it would play the record, right? So he had jukeboxes in very remote locations throughout the community that the other folks would not serve. So he kinda filled that niche. Another person that did that built a business around filling a niche was A. Byron Smith (??). He was another person in the community who was a very outstanding person. Connie Hamler, she was in the real estate business. Physicians in the community. Attorneys in the community. Judge Harris, well now he's Judge Harris but when he was an attorney on Henry Street. Attorney Lawson. Ministers in the community, R. R. Wilkerson, E. T. Burton, Noel Taylor, just on and on. All of those folks because they came through Henry Street and I had that kind of contact and relationship with folks that you would always look up to. CL: Earl, thank you. We really appreciate you coming in to interview with us. Is there anything else you would like to tell us that we didn't ask today? ER: I guess we kind of covered the waterfront here. So, I appreciate the opportunity. CL: Thank you so much. 9 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2634/ReynoldsEarl_Jr.JPG c14bd32e70ec7d835514eec3cc299a5d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Earl B. Reynolds, Jr. Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Earl B. Reynolds, Jr. Interviewer: Carla Lewis Date: 12 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:00:39 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Earl B. Reynolds, Jr.; Carla Lewis; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ReynoldsEarl https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2633/Pendleton_Freeland_O_[compressed].mp3 13975ff59717b2f5cdaa1c1bc43a205c https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2633/PendletonFreeland.pdf fa516ba59be5231978edc55489cf3da3 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Freeland O. Pendleton, Sr. Interviewer: Laura Wickstead Transcriber: Andrew Sterling LW: Where and when were you born Mr. Pendleton? FP: I was born in Superior, West Virginia, September 30, 1919. LW: How long have you lived in Gainsboro? FP: We moved to Roanoke in 1923 and I lived here most all of my life 'til I got married and bought a home in North/Northwest. LW: Where did you live when you moved here in the early days? FP: Right back here at the Civic Center. Our property was right there on the corner, it was up there on the hill from the Civic Center. It was called Diamond Hill. In fact, it was nicknamed Diamond Hill but it was really named Clayton Avenue. We sat up on the hill and looked right down on – Of course, the highway wasn't through there then. It was Hart Avenue. It was the third road up by there. You would sit up on the hill and look down into the graveyard. You know where the graveyard is right down here. We lived right there on that corner. LW: Where did the “Diamond Hill” nickname come from? FP: Diamond hill came from at night, you could stand and look up on the hill and see rocks glittering. It looked like diamonds. So they started calling it Diamond hill. LW: Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. FP: Well, my mother was born in Superior, not Superior, she was born in Providence, Rhode Island. Her mother died in childbirth and one of her mother's sisters got her, in fact, they stole her and moved to Bedford. And they raised her up until she got to 16 years old. She ran off and got married in West Virginia. (laughing) She was 16 and so that's how we began. LW: Do you know what year that was, when she was 16? FP: It was way before my time. (laughing) I really don't remember when she was born. I mean, I got it in the history at home or something like that but, right off hand, I don't know. LW: Tell me about your brothers and sisters. FP: My oldest son is named Freeland Jr. He was in banking here in Roanoke for 20 years. LW: Let me interrupt you, tell me one thing. We forgot to talk about your dad and I want to know about your brothers and sisters not your children. FP: Oh, my brothers LW: First, tell us about your father. FP: My father was named Henry Pendleton. He was from Lynchburg and he moved to West Virginia and worked in the mines. He got killed in the mines in 1923 and my mother – There was 5 of us kids. After he got killed, we moved to Bedford for about 6 months and then we came to Roanoke. My mother bought a house here in Roanoke. My brother, y'all may have seen it in the paper, his name is Bernard Pendleton. He was Chief of Staff at the Veteran's Administration in Bedford, Massachusetts, 33 years. After he retired, he went to – He finished Hampton and then he got his doctorate at Boston University and when he retired, he came back to Virginia Beach and was Assistant Dean at Norfolk State College. He died some years ago. I had a sister that lived in Philadelphia. She died. And there was a twin, Morris. My sister and brother under me were twins. So after they died – That was about it for my family. In fact, I am the only one living in my immediate family. After my mother was stolen from Providence, her daddy worked for Standard Oil Company in Orange, New Jersey, and he didn't know where she was. And she said, after we were born, we were living right down here on Clayton Avenue, right up where the Civic Center is now. She said, “I'm want to find my father”. So she got somebody to look after us. We were teenage and small. I think she was 36 years old. She got in touch with some of her people in Rhode Island and they said that he was – Her father was living somewhere 1 �in New Jersey, Orange, New Jersey. So, she went to New York to visit one of my cousins. She said, “Yeah, I know where he is”. So she called him and told him to come over and that she had a surprise for him. He came over and she introduced - My cousin introduced my mother to her father and didn't tell him who she was. He said, “Where is my surprise?”. She said, “That's your daughter sitting beside of you”. And he was so enthused over it, he couldn't speak for 15 minutes. He had never seen her. She was 6 weeks old when she left, I mean, when they stole her and carried her to Bedford. And he never knew where she was up until she was 36 years old. That was my grandfather. He came to Roanoke to visit us. We were living up on Diamond hill then, right up where the Civic Center there. I guess we went on from there. After my kids were born – In fact, I was married once before. I was married to a girl named Louise Brown. We only were married – we were youngsters – We were only married 9 months. (laughing) And after we separated – I went in the service after that. After that, I volunteered for the Navy. So I went in the service during the war. After I went in the service, she wanted to get a divorce. My first wife wanted to get a divorce so they told her, she didn't have no grounds to get a divorce on. They said, “Your husband can get a divorce”. So the lawyer told me, he said - she runned it in the paper for 2 weeks and if I didn't correspond to it – I was in the service then – said she would, they would automatically give her a divorce. So she did. She did that. I didn't correspond, check on it, so the Chaplain came in and called me in. And the thing that tickled me, he said, “The reason I called you in, I've got these divorce papers here. In the eyes of the law, you're a free man but in the eyes of God, you're still married”. (laughing) That's what the Chaplain told me. So afterwards, and after I got out of the service and I came back and I met my second wife, so we've been married 46 years. She died in '93, cancer. She was a nurse at Burrell Hospital and Community. That was all of my family. After my family passed away, then my family came along. My son, my oldest son, my second son. You know my oldest son, Freeland Jr., run the coves (??). (laughing) 0.08.07.3 LW: Can we backtrack a little bit and tell me what do you remember about your house, the one on Diamond Hill. FP: It was a 9-room home. I think when she bought it – Clayton Lemons built it, built those homes up there on the hill. Clayton Lemons, I don't know if you know who he was but he was. In fact, he was an aviator, Clayton Lemons, airplanes and things. He would train people out at Woodrum Airport, Woodrum Field. So she bought the house down there. I don't think – During that time, I think the house was selling for around $3,000. That was a whole lot of money during that time. (laughing). And we lived there until I got married. LW: What did your mother do? What was her work? 0.09.00.1 FP: She was a homemaker and she worked in service. She worked for Miss Jessie. Do you remember a lawyer Jessie, a lawyer here in Roanoke. She worked for his mother. She was the paymaster for N&W. She was the paymaster for N&W and she worked for Miss Jessie. She took in washing, ironing and stuff like that. I used to deliver the clothes back to 'em and all. (laughing) After that, - When I was 12 years old, we joined the 5th Avenue Presbyterian Church. I'm an elder up there at 5th Avenue Presbyterian Church. Before then I worked for – I went – The doctors – I worked at the Silk Mill for 20 years and it closed. The doctors – 21 doctors had asked me about – They were building a building out on MacClanahan, The Professional Building. He asked me if I would run it for him. I told him if the price was right I would. (laughing) I told him if the price was right I would run it. And when they announced the closing of the Silk Mill after I had been there 20 years, I went and told him the price was right. I didn't care what it was, it was right. (laughing) So I worked for them for 14 years taking care of The Professional Building for 21 doctors. Then a position came open in the schools for a Foreman. The head Foreman was there but they didn't have in the history of Roanoke never had no black Foreman over all the public schools in Roanoke. 36 public schools during that time. They don't have 2 �that many now. They asked me if I would take that job. In fact, Sonny Thomas – I don't know if you remember. You remember Sonny Thomas? Sonny Thomas and John C. Logan – They came to me and asked me, “How about taking that job?”. I said, “I've got a good job”. I was at the Professional Building then. They said, “We want to put somebody in that position. The government said we can't put another white person in that job.” They said, “We've got to have a negro in that job”. So, I told them, “No.”. I didn't think I wanted it. I had a good job and I was satisfied. And they held the job open for 3 months and Sonny Thomas, he was _______ (??) up at my church and so he come and he said, “Pendleton, why don't you take that job. We're trying to get somebody to put in that job who knows what they're doing. We don't want to put somebody in there that don't know what they're doing”. I said, “Well, I'll tell ya. I'll put in my resume.”. So I got Mr. Phillips – Remember the Principal of Addison – Mr. Phillips and Mrs. Phillips, they helped me write my resume and I carried it over and gave it to Dr. Paxton. He was the Superintendent of schools during that time. He told 'em, he said, “Well, if you don't hire him, I'm gonna quit myself.”. (laughing) He knew I had handled men before in the service. I took 250 sailors to Orange, New Jersey, and I was a First Class Petty Officer, and they told me I could pick my own Petty Officer to go help me. They had 200 LSTs tied up in docks in Earl (??), New Jersey and the Stegeldors (??) had struck during the war. They had struck and so they couldn't let civilians go across the picket line but Navy personnel could. So I carried from down Yorktown 250 sailors up there and we got those ships out of dock. LW: Tell me about – Back to your – the position with the schools, what were your responsibilities? FP: My responsibilities was I inspected the schools, all the schools once a month. I had to go through them and inspect 'em. In fact, there was the head of operations. His office was down there on 6th Street, right across from the fire station during that time. After I went there, I was pretty satisfied. I enjoyed it. I'd come in and go in the office in the morning and get everybody on the job. After I got 'em on the job, then I started going around visiting the schools, see what they needed or see what's going on. My supervisor was from Pennsylvania. He was a real nice guy. He was from Pennsylvania. So, I worked there for 13 years I think it was. LW: Tell me about your schooling. Where did you go to school? 0.13.49.9 FP: I went to Addison. I didn't finish. I went to the 11th grade but what happened – Now starting off, I went to elementary school at Harrison. You know up at Harrison. That's where I went to elementary school there and I skipped a grade there. I didn't go to the 8th grade. They moved me from the 7th – They took the 8th grade out I think is what happened and I went from the 7th to the 9th at Addison. (laughing) During that time, they didn't go no further than the 11th grade then. See, they didn't go no further than the 11th grade. So, in later years, they put the 12th grade back on. So after that, after I left, after I came out of school, I told my mother I wanted to go to Washington. And she said, “What you want to go to Washington for?”. I said, “I want to go up there”. In fact, the reason I wanted to go to Washington, I tried to join the Army and they told me that they wasn't taking any blacks in the Army here in Roanoke. They said the closest place I could go would be Fort Belvoir up near Washington, D.C. I didn't tell my mother what I was going to do. So she said, “I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll give you money enough to get there and not enough to get back”. So she thought I wanted to go just to go on vacation or something. So she game me $10. I never will forget it. Enough to catch the Greyhound Bus, go to Washington. Got up there, I rented a room on T Street for $2.50 a week – a room, $2.50 a week and I think the bus trip was $2 or $3 or something like that to Washington, one way. And after I got there, you could buy a job. You could buy jobs then. So I went down to the Unemployment Office and they had 2 jobs that maybe I could've done but they had one job in there for chef/cook and one for expert painter, you know, like to paint room inside. So I didn't know much about cooking then. I said I'll take the painting job. I gave them a dollar – I had paid a dollar and a half for the job. They gave me the address out near the zoo in Washington. People lived out there and the husband worked for the 3 �Interior, Washington, DC for Interior at the White House. So, she looked at me and she said, “You look mighty young to be an expert painter”. (laughing) I think I was 14 or 15. She said, “You're mighty young to be an expert painter”. (laughing) I said, “I'm an expert painter though”. She said, “Where are you from?”. I said, “I'm from Virginia”. She said, “I like Virginia boys so I'm gonna give you a chance”. She said, “If you mess up my wall, I'm gonna have to pay more money (laughing) I got in there and I painted living room, dining room, hall, everything. I done a beautiful job. And she said, “You know, I wouldn't believe that you could do this.” It took me a week. My rent was due on this $2.50 room. It was running out. And so, she said, “I've got a room down here in the basement you could use and you could live here until the fall of the year if you want to and help me around the house and I'll see some of my friends get you a job.”. I said, “Well and good.”. So I moved over there and I used to help her around the house, do things for her. And then up at 16th and Irving, they had this big cafeteria in a big apartment building and she got me a job up there as a bus boy. And I stayed there and worked up to waiter. Had a lot of fellows from Howard University used to come over and wait tables for extra work and help. So, I was the bus boy for some of them for a while and they would always tip me and I kept the tables clean for 'em. Finally, I worked up to waiter. I done that until I came back. I came back to Roanoke in 1938. And they said, “Why you come back here for? Ain't no jobs here.”. So I heard they was hiring over at the Silk Mill, 1938. I went over there and the man come out, Mr. Rich, a little short fellow. He came out and when he hired me, he said, “I want you, you, you and you.”. There were a bunch of guys standing around out there. They picked me. I was a big strapping – I was big then, you know, but I wasn't old. So I got in there, when I got in there, they asked my age. I told 'em how old I was. They said, “I'm sorry, you're too young. We can't hire you.”. So I come on back out. So the next week, they were still hiring, I went back over there about 2 weeks later and they picked me again. And I told 'em I was 18. And they said, “You're too young.”. I don't know why they didn't recognize me. Anyway, what happened, they was getting ready to put the railroad through there so the engine could bring big box cars and things in to the plant down there. So, the man that lived the 2nd door from me when I lived up on Diamond Hill, he worked there. I asked him, “How old do you have to be to get a job over there?”. He said, “You gotta be 21.”. So what I did, I went back a week or so later and they picked me again. (laughing) So when I got in there and they asked my age, I told 'em I was 23. (laughing) I was big enough but I wasn't old enough. I told 'em I was 23. So, they hired me. And I worked there until 1940 when you had to register for the Army. That's when they caught up with my age. They said, “You mean to tell me you've been here this long and you're just now 21 years old?”. I said, “Yeah, that's right. I'm 21 and nothing y'all can do now”. They said, “You know, if anything happened to you, your parents could've sued this company.”. I said, “Well, didn't nothing happen and I'm 21.”. 0.20.22.1 LW: What types of things did you do at this plant? FP: I ran a forklift, unloading cars and things like that. I worked on the railroad over there to help put the tracks in. That was a hard job 'cause I was big enough and all and I learned how to roll. I don't know whether you've seen fellows on the railroad rolling those hammers, spiking down ____. I learned how to do all that. LW: And that was something that you did in teams, several men at a time would do that? FP: Oh yeah. 'Cause it took for one section of rail, it would 8 people to lift one section of rail to set it in. LW: How did you coordinate everybody's efforts so that you could work together? FP: They had one lead man that give you the go-ahead of what to do. It had something like a one of those long rails laying out. I think those thing weigh, I don't know how many – over 2 or 300 pounds a foot. One of those long rails. And they had 2 men up here, 2 here, 2 here, and all the way down the line. Had something like an ice hook that hooks under that rail, 1 man on this side and 1 on that side. 4 �The lead man, he would tell you when to get ready to lift. And everybody would lift at the same time and move the rails up on the logs. Then you had to tamp your logs down to the gravel and logs. I had a real tricky life. After that, I started training for prize fighting. I was still working up there though. I fought at the American Legion. I don't know if y'all remember the American Legion Auditorium when it was here. You remember the American Legion? I fought ______ with Jessie Baker. Remember Jessie Baker? (laughing) I turned out to be a right good prize fighter during that time. LW: So, how old were you then? FP: Let me see. I had to be around 18. 'Cause see, I put my age up when I got the job at the Silk Mill. And I fought – We used to fight guys out of Richmond and West Virginia, Greensboro. We had this big bout down at the American Legion Auditorium. My sisters and all my friends were there. I was gonna fight this guy from Richmond that night. So John Archie Brown – I don't know whether you remember him or not, he was a trainer. John Archie, he was our trainer. We got up there and he said, “Pendleton, I'll tell ya, this guy, in the first round we'll check and see if he's a slugger or a boxer.”. So when I came back to the corner, my trainer said, “He's a slugger.”. What a slugger means is, he just come in wailing away. Don't you do that, you stay back and box him and try to stay out of his way. I said, “OK.”. I got out there and I was ducking and dodging. This guy was coming at me with everything he could think of and I was aiming to ride the ropes – You can fall back against the rope and slide down out the way. So I was in a crouch when I went back, my head missed the top rope. I went out through the 2nd rope down on that cement floor. And when I hit the floor, everything went black. Everything went out. When I come to, they had me back up on the ring, on the edge of the ring, and they put the smelling salts, that was worse than the fall was. (laughing) Put that smelling salts under my nose and I come to. Everything was quiet when I came to and the bell rang for the 3rd round. I got back in the ring and I kept shaking my head trying to get my head clear but I couldn't get my head clear. And my trainer didn't have sense enough to throw the towel in and see if I was hurt. So I just turned and laid across the ropes and they called the fight. That was the end of my fighting career. (laughing) I wrestled during that time. I used to sing at amateur night at the Virginia Theater. You remember that? And then I sang at banquets at the old Dumas Hotel. LW: Did you play an instrument too? FP: Naw. I had a fellow, James Henrdick (??). He used to play the guitar for me. LW: What kinds of songs did you sing? FP: Well, I used to sing a song called – A lot of Western songs I sung during that time. Old Saddle in the Old Corral. And I forget the other songs. Anyway, I won the amateur night program up there. 0.25.07.9 LW: What was the prize? FP: I think it was $50. And they used to have it every other week at the Strand Theater, right across from High Street Church. Y'all don't remember when they had the High Street Church right there where the N&W building is now. Right there. They had a theater, a big theater was right there. LW: So were they packed houses? Tell me about the audiences. FP: Oh yeah. 'Cause you could get in for 10 cents. The movie wasn't but 10 cents. Hot dogs were 5 cents, soda 5. You could go out with 50 cents, boy, you could do a whole lot. LW: Did you see shows at the Dumas and other performers? FP: I used to go when Duke Ellington used to come here and Lionel Hampton. I used to get in free. Me and a friend of mine, we used to dress like some of the – back in them times, I don't know whether you remember they had these things called Zoot Suits. I used to put on my Zoot Suit, had a long chain that come down here. (laughing) And we'd go ask the – When the musical guys would come up with the band and things, we'd ask if they wanted us to help them carry 'em in. So we would help and carry 'em in and get in and we got in free. They thought we were with the band. (laughing) Me and a boy called Pie Samuel (??) We got in free. Most of all of the activities down at the Civic Center. It was the 5 �American Legion they called it during that time. Right across from the old N&W station. That's where it was. LW: Were the audiences all black or were there whites in the audience too? FP: White was - When Cab Calloway and Jimmy Lawrence and all those bands come here, the negros were down on the floor and the whites were up in the balcony. They were segregated. The whites, they'd come fill the back up just to see the bands and things and see us dance. (laughing) LW: I was gonna ask. FP: And see us dance. When a white band would come, if negros wanted to see it, they could go down and sit in the balcony and white people would watch the band and hear the music. LW: Do you have a favorite that you heard? FP: My favorite was Duke Ellington. That was my favorite. I don't know whether you remember Duke Ellington. That was my favorite. And Duke Ellington and Lionel Hampton and all those bands. They used to come here all the time. LW: So where did they stay when they came? FP: The Dumas Hotel. Right up there at the Dumas. LW: You said you visited the library when you were a little boy, tell me about that. FP: Yeah. It wasn't like this. I know they done remodeled this. (laughing) It wasn't nothing like this I tell you that now. And Miss Lee, was down here and her husband was the head of the YMCA, Mr. Lee. And that was up on 3rd Avenue then. It wasn't over here on Orange Avenue. In later years after I joined the – I don't know if you've heard of the Dukes and Earls. I tell you who's got the place now, we sold it to them after some years. We bought a place out in Kingstown and I tell you who's got it now – They have parties and banquets and different things out there. This guy was a coach at William Byrd - See it advertised every Sunday. Malone's Peake. We used to own that. The club Dukes and Earls, we owned it from 1960 up until we sold it. I was the President of the club for 5 or 6 years up until most of the guys got old. LW: So it was a membership club? FP: Membership, yeah. LW: Did you have entertainment come or it was just a place to get together? 0.29.47.1 FP: No, we would get together but we would have entertainment but it would be at the Civic Center have formal dances and dances and things like that. But the place wasn't big enough to do that but we would have parties and things out there, New Years, Christmas and different stuff like that. It was a social club. But we had, in later years, we had moved it into stock. Everybody had stock in it. And as the members died out, we had to pay them out of the stock. And usually most of the time it was $4,500 and we couldn't stay after members dying out, things got pretty hectic. So, I decided we were going to sell it. Some of them didn't. So I got enough guys together and we sold it to Malone. Its beautiful. You ought to see it. Its beautiful. LW: Where is it then? FP: Out in Kingstown. Right out from Holiday Inn, Airport Holiday Inn. Its about a block or two blocks from Holiday Inn, Malone's Peake. But its really – You see it on sometimes on Sunday be advertised for picnics and all that stuff like that. But its real nice. LW: Tell me about – You said you – You started to tell me about the military and taking the men up to New Jersey. So you joined which branch of the service? FP: I volunteered for the Navy. I wanted to into the Army but they wasn't taking any blacks in the Army here in Roanoke so I had to go to Fort Belvoir in Washington. So when I got up there, I went over and they sent me over to a building and they said, “You're not any in trouble are ya?”. I mean I wanted to volunteer. They thought maybe I wanted to get into the Army to get away from something. I told 'em, “No, I just wanted to – Some of my friends had joined and I wanted to join.”. 6 �LW: And about what year was this? FP: 1936. In 1936. When the war broke out, I said they're gonna want to draft me in the Army and I'm not going in the Army so I volunteered for the Navy. I was working at the Silk Mill. They told me if I could pass this test. I went down to the post office, “We'll send you to the Seaman Branch”. They had opened up the Seaman Branch for – During that time, they didn't have nothing in the Navy but stewards and ship's cook. I said, “I know I can do something better than that.”. They opened up the Seaman Branch. Secretary Knox was the Secretary of the Navy during that time and they opened the Seaman Branch up so I passed the test. They sent me to Richmond. I was sworn in in Richmond. I went down on Monday and Wednesday, I was in Chicago, Great Lakes. (laughing) Just that quick. They sent me to Richmond and we got sworn in down there and we got on a train, a bunch of us, and left and went to Chicago. I went through boot camp. I think I was in the 12th Company. During that time, you went through the Great Lakes, Illinois up there. And then what they did, they says – They had a service school that you could go to and strike for your rating at Hampton, Hampton Institute and different places you know or you could go in the outgoing unit. So I took the outgoing unit. If you take the outgoing unit, that means you go and work by hand instead of studying in the school with the products. So I was on the mine depot down in Yorktown. A lot of the guys from Chicago, they went in the service school down at Hampton. And when they graduated from Hampton through their course, I was a 3rd Class Petty Officer. They said, “How did you get up...?” - And half the guys that went down there, only 25% of the class came out rated in school. I went and struck for my rating. I went and worked with ______, mines depot and all that. I was a 3rd Class Petty Officer when they came out of school. (laughing) And I was on the base – I don't know whether you remember the base blew up, the whole base blew up down there in Yorktown. And what happened, the Tarpex (??) plant, the stuff that they used in torpedoes. That stuff was dangerous. That place – In fact, I had been out to the USO, I came in and was in the Petty Officer Quarters. We had different quarters than the rest of them, the officers did. I was in there and getting ready to go to bed, and just as I am about to get in the bed, a light blaze went straight up – I was looking out the window, looked like about a mile high in the air. And then that whole peninsula shook. So I thought the Japanese had just struck. (laughing) Somebody had sabotaged it and blew up the place down there. My mother was in Washington. She was looking for me that weekend. She was scared to death thought maybe I had got hurt. Only 5 people got killed. They had civilians working at these plants. They sent all of 'em home that evening for the night shift and told 'em to come back the next morning. It was a good thing they did. They knew that somebody had got in there. 'Cause somebody had knocked – One of the marines on the gate they had knocked him in the head and they had go into the place. But they had all these magazines all out. You could go down to Williamsburg and go down through there, you can look over and see these humps in the ground. That's where they kept the ammunition, called it magazines, that's what they called it. They kept all this ammunition stored in these humps. This is right down there now. On the train, you could see it when the train goes through. So, they wouldn't let no Navy personnel go out to the scene. There was a Marine there at night guarding at night. He was about 200 yards from where the explosion was and it busted both his eardrums and twisted his rifle in his hand, like that. And the railroad cars sitting around this building with the doors closed, the concussion just boost the side of the cars out like that. Looks like somebody just pushed 'em out, you know, to the side, And all the automobiles down there, it just sucked the tops right into the seat. We were right on the base there at Yorktown and then Norfolk got a worser shock than we did. The concussion followed the water towards Norfolk. They got it worse. We were right there where it was but they got the worst end of it in Norfolk. They sent a party out the next day, we went down to see. It looked like all the trees around there, looked like somebody just took something to skin 'em. And some of them big railroad car wheels were found a half a mile from the explosion. Lo and behold, at Treasure Island down in California, that same plant, another plant with the same thing blew up. I'm telling you, it was awful that day. And there were 5 guys that 7 �got killed. It was one of 'em from Roanoke. Miss – What was her name? - Her – She was a teacher at Addison. She taught Home Ec at Addison. Her brother got killed. He lived down at Gloucester Point but he worked on the base and 4 other guys. And the only thing they found, they found one head burnt and hand in a glove. That's all they found. 0.37.51.6 LW: Let me pull you back to Gainsboro. I want to ask you, when you were young, were there any adults – who were important people in your life that - ? FP: Well, Mr. Lee was one at the Y. LW: Did you spend a lot of time a the Y? FP: Oh yeah. LW: Is that where your boxing developed? FP: The boxing developed – John Archie – We used to live right – Let's see, where's the Claytor home, right here, right across there. Well there was a big building. The Y was right across from the Claytors. The drug store was right there on the corner and the Y was right there and we trained upstairs and Mr. Lee, upstairs, that's where we trained at, upstairs on the 3rd floor. He and Mr. Lee and – Who else was it? - Coach Lawson who was a coach at Addison at that time back then 'cause I played football over there at Addison. Let me see. Who else was there? Undertaker Clark, I don't know whether you – years ago, the undertaker used to be right over there on the corner of 7th Avenue, undertaker Clark. LW: How did you know him? FP: Know who? LW: Mr. Clark. FP: Well, back in the day, in fact, everybody knew Clark 'cause during that time him and this other undertaker – There wasn't but two black undertakers here in Roanoke then. In fact, he knew everybody just about in Roanoke. Not everybody but all the blacks. He knew all the blacks in Roanoke. Undertaker Clark. I'm thinking of the other undertaker – Williams up on Gillam Avenue, undertaker Williams. His wife died not too long ago, Mrs. Williams. LW: Were there certain things that you and your friends after school, you'd go off – Was there something you'd do or someplace you'd go or on weekends? What did you all do as kids? 0.40.04.0 FP: We didn't go nowhere on weekends. Not out of town. LW: But I mean, did you – would you go on hikes or did you ever go camping or did you go to the drugstore - ? FP: We'd hang out right here on the corner at the drugstore. We used to hang out there. And sometimes on Sunday, we used to go to Berkley's Bottom. A place called Berkley's Bottom down below Vinton. We used to walk down there and there's a creek. We used to go and swim in it. We didn't have no swimming pool, not then. Later years, they got the swimming pool right up here on, right across from the Y. You can see part of it there now, the cement part. Part of the swimming pool was right there. Because there wasn't no road going through there then. Nothing but a dirt road going up through there. LW: How'd you learn to swim? FP: In the creek. (laughing) Down at Berkley's Bottom. That's how I learned how to swim. Of course you had to know how to swim to get in the Navy anyway. You had to pass the test. When you went there, they'd tell ya, “Jump in here and swim all the way around and back up and get out.” They said all those who could swim didn't have to take the test and we had some there that had never went in the water in their life and they hauled off and jumped off that thing into the water and the man had to go get 'em. (laughing) He told 'em, “I said, the ones who knew how to swim.”. They'd teach you how to jump. You don't dive off of no ship. If your ship get blowed up, you don't dive off no ship, you jump feet first. They teach you to jump feet first. 'Cause you can dive off and hit your head on some of 8 �the debris in the water and drown so you jumped feet first. I caddied. I was 11 years old. That was another thing I did, I caddied out at Old Monterey, 11 years old. That's how I got into golf. I used to make 2 rounds of 18/36 holes on Sunday. I'd get $2.50 for each 18 holes of golf. LW: So that was pretty good money. FP: It was good money for an 11 year-old youngster back then. And then the guys would tip you pretty good, maybe $.50 or a quarter. That was good money. LW: So what did you do with your money? FP: Well, I'll tell ya. Then I had job down on Salem Avenue with Mr. Filian (??). I shined shoes. I used to shine shoes down on Salem Avenue at his barber shop. I bought my first suit that my mother didn't have to buy for me. It was at Joe Stein's over on Jefferson Street. A clothing store called Joe Stein's. I bought my first suit. I was crazy about that suit. Hung it up down there in the room and my sister had gotten mad with me for something. No, she was up the street playing with the boys. She was kinda tomboyish. My mother said, “Go up there and get her.”. I went and got me a switch and went up there and hit her a couple of times to run her home. The next morning, I got up and went back to look at my suit hanging up behind the door and it was in shreds, the first suit I ever bought in my life. She done took a knife and just shredded it. So I told my momma, “If you don't kill her, I am.”. (laughing) LW: What happened? Was she punished? FP: Oh yeah, she was punished. (laughing) LW: How long did it take – How long before you got another suit? FP: I don't remember how long it was. It was my first suit. Every time I'd get a dollar or two dollars, I'd go up there and put it on my suit, layaway, you know, 'til I got that suit. First suit I ever bought in my life. My sister messed that suit up right quick 'cause she knew I was crazy about that suit. LW: What other memories can you tell me about, young and being at home with your mother? What kinds of chores did you all do around the house? FP: I did most of the scrubbing, helped my mother wash. I did most everything. My brother didn't. He was always in school. In fact, he was older than I am 'cause when I got a job at the Silk Mill, I helped pay his education in Hampton. 'Cause each one of us kids, when my father got killed, we got so much money a month until we reached the age of 18 through the pension. And my mother got a pension as long as she lived and as long as she didn't marry anymore. Now if she had married then the pension was stopped. So she raised all 5 of us and never married again. He finished school and got his Doctorate. He worked at the VA for a while. He left here and went to Massachusetts after he finished Hampton and got his Doctorate and all up at Boston University. After he retired, he went down to Norfolk State. They wanted him at Hampton but he said by being retired, it was too much work at Hampton. But he was the president of the Hampton Alumni. He traveled all over the United States. 0.45.30.1 LW: Did your sisters finish their schooling or -? FP: No. My sister, younger sister, she worked for Miss Fenerum. (??) LW: What was your sister's name? FP: Her name was Bernice. She worked up in Connecticut for one of the richest real estate – In fact, she raised all of their children, my sister did. She went there and got this job. The husband, Mr. Fenerum and Mrs. Fenerum, both of 'em was alcoholics. They had 5 kids. One set of twins and they were 18 months old. And then the other, Joe and the other two girls, there were 5 of them kids. And my sister took over that and when she went to work for the Fenerums, they took them out there on stretcher both the man and the wife. Put them in this - what do you call it? - Rehab or something. She stayed there and raised – They were millionaires. She raised them kids until they got grown my sister did. Then they bought this town in Washington. In fact, they own about the whole town in – Its a shopping center – What's the name of that shopping center right out of Washington? - I see it on TV sometimes. Anyway, they built all these shopping centers over at this place, Mr. Fenerum. And my 9 �sister, when she moved back to Roanoke, Mrs. Fenerum, they came here to the funeral when she died. And the children and all, all of 'em came. They was about the richest family in the Connecticut in real estate. I used to take my kids up there. We used to go on vacation. My niece was living up there. We used to go up there and stay with them and go out on the Cape and they had their own private beach and everything. We used to go out there and my kids used to play with their kids and have a good time. (laughing) LW: Tell me more about when you were young. Were holidays important in your household? Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving. FP: Oh yeah. LW: Did you have extended family that came from the Bedford area or -? FP: Not really. When we moved back to Roanoke, some of 'em moved here to Roanoke. My cousin and all, they moved from Bedford to Roanoke. It wasn't too much for us to have a good Christmas. We got a little something with 5 kids and nobody but the mother to raise. She raised all 5 of us by herself. LW: Was Christmas meal, was that special? Christmas dinner? FP: Oh yeah. I still carry on the tradition of Thanksgiving. I always have Thanksgiving dinner for the family. And then my niece, she has Christmas dinner for the family. I was marking down here the other day how many people were there, and it was about 16. (laughing) LW: For Thanksgiving? FP: Uh huh. LW: So, what's on the menu? And you cook this? FP: Oh yeah, I cook everything. I got turkey, ham, chiterlings, that was the meat. And what else do we have? Chicken. And greens, collard greens, string beans. I already got my string beans done and frozen in the box. Potato salad – ranch potatoes. You ever eat a ranch potato? LW: Tell me. What are they? FP: You take red potatoes and cut 'em in blocks and cook 'em. And then you put a layer of that, a layer of cheese and a layer of ranch dressing and then build it up and then you run it in the stove. You talk about something good. (laughing) LW: Cheddar cheese? What kind of cheese? FP: Sharp cheese. And corn pudding. I don't make the corn pudding, my niece makes a better corn pudding than I do. I can make it but my mother taught my niece how to make corn pudding. I was at Kroger's the day before yesterday, they got this canned corn on sale, 10 for $5 so I got the crushed corn and then whole corn and you mix it. But I can make it but it looks like to me, hers is better than mine. (laughing) And then I got pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, pound cake. (laughing) I got my pound cakes already ready. And I already got my crust, that Pillsbury crust and I got to get my sweet potato. (laughing) 0.50.34.3 LW: And you've been doing that for years? FP: Oh, I've been doing that ever since my mother passed. My mother has been dead now about 15 or 16 years. I've been doing it every Thanksgiving. LW: So, before that, you all went to your mother's then? FP: Oh yeah. LW: See, my mother lived right across the street. She bought a house right across the street from me. I used to live on Thomas, up the street. So I sold that house and built another one right across from my mother. I think it was '65, I built it. And I'm still there now. A guy told me one time, he said, a fellow I worked with at the Silk Mill, I told him I was getting ready to build a house and he said, “Don't do like I did.” He built this big house and he had 3 kids. He said in less than 15 years, they were in there by theirself, him and his wife. He said, “Don't build no big house.”. I said, “Well, I've got 3 kids.”. He 10 �said, “Just build it big enough to get by. In less than 15 years, you're gonna be there by yourself.”. And he was true to that. And I built a 5 room brick. Its got 2 bedrooms, living room, den and kitchen and a bathroom upstairs and the basement is finished. One side, I got a couple of refrigerators and freezer, washer and dryer and all of that. And on this side, I got a bookcase, a television and the bar. The guy took the bricks left from the house where he built the house and he built me a bar. His name was James Richardson, worked with Red Charlton (??). He's a good bricklayer. They built the Lawson Building. They laid the brick for the Lawson Building. He made me a bar. A nice long bar. Seats 6 people at the bar. Now, I was there by myself after my wife died and all the kids had gone. My youngest son, he was living up on Staunton and so after him and his wife separated, my daughter and my oldest son said, “Why don't you let Buster come back home with you. You ain't got no business being there by yourself.”. So I thought about that thing and I told him. I said to him, “Its up to him, if you want to come back. You can come back if you want to.”. People ask me, “Mr. Pendleton, when you gonna get married?”. I said, “Get married? I ain't marrying nobody else.”. I said, “What I got here is going to my kids. Ain't nobody gonna come in here and take that away from 'em.”. And he moved back and he's a big help. He cuts grass and wash dishes. He says, “Don't worry, I'll clean up the dishes.”. And he will. And when I had this big party, after I done finished cooking, I go sit down. They do all that. My daughter and all of 'em and my granddaughter, they come in and wash up all the dishes and clean up and everything. I don't do nothing after that. (laughing) I just sit back. LW: You said that when you were 11 years old, you were a golf caddie so did you learn to play then? And you still play? FP: Up on Diamond Hill, there's a man that worked at N&W who had a little 3 or 4 hole golf, putting green up there in his yard. LW: Do you remember his name? FP: Lawson, Mr. Lawson. And I'll never forget him. He worked at N&W and he drove a Chrysler 77. Thing made like a box back then. I don't know what model it was but I was a youngster during that time and he had this beautiful, I thought it was the prettiest car I ever seen. It was built just like the Hummer. You know how the Hummer in a block, well, that's the way it looked. Chrysler 77. They don't make 'em no more. I don't know when they stopped making 'em. It was battleship gray. I'll never forget that. And we used to go up there and putt around up there until after – and then when I got into golf, Dr. Claytor, out at Kingstown, he had this farm out there. He had a 9 hole sangreen (??) golf course. Every Sunday after church, we used to take – golfers used to take their families, my kids and all and have a picnic. Take a dinner out there and play golf and eat. And Miss Carter – Do you remember Miss Carter who used to run the nursing home? She would come out and cook every Sunday. (laughing) 0.55.25.2 LW: How many people came? FP: Oh it was a good 20 or 30 people. She would fry chicken and all that out there at Claytor farm. Its called Claytor farm. You know Dr. Claytor, you know his sons and all. All of them played golf and we'd go there every Sunday. We'd take our Sunday dinner out there and we'd play golf and there was a swimming pool and everything out there. It was real nice. LW: We're about to wrap it up. Is there any last thing that you want to tell me that I didn't ask about or -? FP: Let's see. I don't remember. Oh, you know about over at the graveyard. We used to play down in there at the bottom part of the First Baptist Church Graveyard. That belonged to the First Baptist Church. I guess y'all know that. And the city part was up a little further where they made the come off the interstate right there at Orange Avenue, cut up through there. That was the city's graveyard. When they cut up through there, they found bones and bodies. They just put 'em in a box. I don't know where they carried it. Buried it somewhere else. But, First Baptist graveyard is still there. 11 �LW: So, as boys you used to go down there and play? FP: We used to play right in the flat part in the graveyard. We used to play down there 'til 10-11 o'clock at night. And my brother – I'll never forget it – he tried to scare us. He got a white sheet and went around and come up behind one of the tombstones with this white sheet on. (laughing) We weren't scared. We got some rocks and started rocking him. (laughing) He was hollering, “Hey! This is me.”. (laughing) He was gonna scare us. He got this sheet and come down through there and we was throwing rocks at him. LW: Well, thank you so much FP: Right down there – I don't know whether y'all know it – that was where the motel right across, right there – That was a dump. That was the dump. They dumped trash and everything down there and then they covered it over with dirt after the years and then they built the PiLWa Hut and a trucking company was there and Miss old lady Jabot, she owned it. She owned all that. She offered it to me, the whole square in there where they got the hotel and a motel and all for $1,000. I said – I had the money to buy it. My momma said, “Miss Jabot says she will sell you that for $1,000.” I said I don't want that old dump. Well, they hadn't covered it over. I said I'm gonna buy me another automobile. LW: So what did you buy? FP: I bought another automobile. And so, in later years, that property was worth a whole lot of money. I let it get away from me. It got away and it goes to show that you really ought to look at things. And all along Hart Avenue, there were houses, and they were selling the lots for $75. I could've bought 'em. I was making money over at the Silk Mill but, no, I had to have another automobile. LW: Thank you so much for FP: I was the first negro that owned a Cadillac in Roanoke. LW: What year was that? Do you remember? FP: I bought my first one in '47. They wouldn't even sell a negro a new Cadillac here in Roanoke. Harry Franklin run a poolroom on Henry Street and he went to Norfolk and bought his. Miss Gill, the lady with the stone house up there, she bought one and she went to Bluefield. J.B. Claytor bought one and he went to Bluefield and bought his. So, the boy that worked there. I knew the boy that worked at Cadillac. He said, “They've got a demonstrator out here and its in good shape.” That's the one they carry around and show people. He said, “You can buy this. They'll sell you that.”. So I went in there and bought that. Then in later years, what happened, the guy from Martinsville took over – They took the franchise away from the guy at the Cadillac place and the guy from Martinsville took it over and he said, “I don't care what color they was. I'll sell 'em a Cadillac.”. LW: He was a businessman. FP: He was a businessman. LW: Thank you so much for talking to us this morning. I appreciate it. FP: Oh yeah. I got another meeting to go to. 12 � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2633/PendletonFreeland.1.JPG ece96ce284cbdaf81a443abf2d3bf122 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Freeland O. Pendleton, Sr. Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Freeland O. Pendleton, Sr. Interviewer: Laura Wickstead Date: 12 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:00:17 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Freeland O. Pendleton, Sr.; Laura Wickstead; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PendletonFreeland (compressed) https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2632/Peery_Lewis_[compressed].mp3 22f76e739bdbaefe28d4c473ef19487f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2632/PeeryLewis.pdf 555a0756e92083c019a4a1c92c731046 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Lewis Peery Interviewer: Mary Bishop Transcriber: Andrew Sterling It is October 12, 2006 and Mr. Lewis William Peery is being interviewed at the Gainsboro Library. MB: Mr. Peery, where and when were you born? LP: I was born in Pearisburg, Virginia, on December 23, 1920. MB: Have long have you lived in Gainsboro? LP: I've lived 58 years in this area. I moved to Roanoke in May, 1948, and I've resided at 508 Rutheford Avenue all those years. MB: Tell me something about how you came to live at that address. LP: I moved to Roanoke because I met a certain young lady through my brother who had also married her sister. We started courting and I decided that what I wanted/we wanted to do is to get married. And prior to that, I worked at Celanese Corporation between Narrows and Pearisburg. So I left that position there because we wanted to get married in Roanoke and I came and I began to work at the VA Medical Center where I worked for 4 years. I moved in May of '48 and in June, 1948, we were married and that was a happy occasion for me to move from Pearisburg to Roanoke and get married. We moved to a home there at 508 that my aunt lived. She lived by herself. She was a nurse and she did practical duty/special duty. So we lived with her and she lived with us until she passed at 92. So, I've have a wonderful experience living in the neighborhood. My wife and I are the last two in the whole Rutheford Avenue – There are 8 blocks on Rutheford Avenue and we are the last two right now that was there when we moved there some 58 years ago. And we're still young. Did I say that? MB: Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. LP: My mother was a homebound. My father worked for Lease and McVitty Tannery Company most of his life. There were 3 tanneries, one in Pearisburg, one in Salem and one in Buena Vista. And there were 10 children in our family and I was the second child. My older brother is deceased. Its only 6 of us left, 2 girls and 4 boys. That's the family. And in my wife's family, there were 13 in her family. There were 9 girls and 4 boys. All of 'em are deceased except 3 daughters, and my wife is one of those 3. MB: And tell me about the marriage between your brother and Mrs. Peery's sister. LP: My brother - His wife and another lady here in Roanoke graduated from Addison High School. They went on to Virginia Union and graduated. So he was courting my wife's sister. So I met my wife through them. So that's how we were connected during that period of time. Of course, they married in 1946 and they had 8 children and, of course, my wife always felt like those 8 children were hers too. So that's been the closest of the family during the better years. And it kinda tied us – We were connected through that type of program for many years. MB: And you still have extended family members living nearby, do you not? 0.05.01.8 LP: Yes, still here in Roanoke. See, my wife lived in Cave Springs. That was her home place out there. I still have nieces and nephews living here in Roanoke. Another thing, most all of my brother's children are away from the city except one. But he lived in Salem. They moved to Salem before we moved to Roanoke. They moved to Salem in 1946. We moved to Roanoke in 19 – I moved in Roanoke in 1948. MB: And just for the record, I wanted to get your aunt's name because she was probably an important person in Gainsboro. LP: When I moved to Roanoke in 1948, I had an aunt that I visited a lot. I had other relatives here in the city but she was kind of a special aunt. She was a registered nurse. There were not many registered nurses, blacks, back in those days. And of course some of them worked at Burrell Hospital but she did �private duty all the time. She was beginning to get aged but one thing about her, what she would do, if any of her brothers or sisters became ill, she would stop her work and go wait on them. And she came to Pearisburg. See, her sister was my grandmother also. That was a tie there. And when my grandmother came here, she would come to Pearisburg and wait on her too. So we just felt something – a closeness there as well as she had two brothers here in this city. They carried mail just like I did during a period of time. So there was a closeness of family relationship here in the City of Roanoke for me so I wasn't lost when I moved here. MB: And what was your aunt's name? LP: Her name was Annie C. Taylor and she died at the age of 92. And we looked after her during that period of time after we moved here. I can't remember the date that she died but she died at the age of 92. MB: Can you describe your house for us which was her house too? LP: My house is the 7 room house, 4 rooms downstairs, dining room, living room, kitchen and what I call – It used to be a bedroom, its my den now. There are 3 bedrooms upstairs. One thing about our house, its a house that has the boards on it. Its not a brick house and its not a complete basement. The houses on that street – There are a lot of houses in this area I'm sure they didn't have a full basement. We didn't have a full basement. I dug out a basement enough to have washrooms and things down there and be able to put a little shop down there. We've worked on it over the years and updated it and everything 'cause back then, we had a stove in the dining room and that's where we got our heat from. So actually we had to do a whole lot of remodeling in order to put in a furnace and washing machines and different things in the basement. So we remodeled a lot during the years. MB: Do you have any idea when it was built? LP: If we've been there 58 years, I think that house probably – I'm just gonna make a guess, somewhere approximately 80 or 90 years ago when the neighborhood was developed back in those days. A lot of the neighborhoods were developed back then. And another fact about that, you have to understand what happened here. In this area, in the Gainsboro area – Am I talking too far ahead of you? MB: No, that's fine. LP: By carrying mail, I learned a lot about Gainsboro. You see back then, they used numbers. Gilmer Avenue was 4th Avenue. Patton Avenue was 5th Avenue. Harrison Avenue was 6th Avenue. Rutheford Avenue was 7th Avenue. Madison Avenue was 8th Avenue. But when you cross – You see this is a Northwest - When you cross Jefferson Street, as I've told you before, things kinda change but you had approximately the same numbers down in Northeast. They went by 9th Avenue, 10th Avenue and then you had an East Avenue in Northeast that kinda changed everything a little bit. But Rutheford Avenue in Northwest is the same as Rutheford Avenue in Northeast. So that's the way the city was scheduled or made up back then. MB: In those days, were the numbered streets – Was Rutheford Avenue called both 7th Avenue and Rutheford or did it just change? 0.09.54.3 LP: No, it was all 7th Avenue. But see the post office, when they came in, that was confusing to the mail carrier. If you didn't kinda live around, it was – of course you had the same numbers. Harrison Avenue same number as Harrison Avenue – So they decided that what they would do is they would change and get rid of the numbers and then they would come back. I think they reused some like Rutheford Avenue but after that, they stopped using Rutheford Avenue. And when they brought out the telephone directories, then everything – They changed everything to Madison Avenue, Gilmer Avenue, Wells Avenue, just like over here. What's over here now? Wells Avenue was 3rd Avenue I believe but its Wells Avenue now. But everything changed. This area changed a great deal back then. MB: Back to your house, out in the yard, did you have a garden? LP: Never had a garden. Didn't have room for one. Kinda had a little garden out at my wife's father's �house but I had a special garden and my special garden was down on the market. (laughing) I went to the market all the time. (laughing) And that was a big thing back then. You could ride the bus for 7 cents/10 cents, so everybody went to the market. My aunt went to the market. That was a big thing. I was just tickled to death over that when I moved here to go to the market to get my vegetables. OK, I better stop talking hadn't I? Go ahead. (chuckle) MB: Tell me about the kind of work that your family did. LP: My mother didn't work at all. My father worked for Lease and McVitty Tannery Company and they had one in Pearisburg. They had one in Salem and they had one in Buena Vista. When you talk about Lease and McVitty Tannery Company, what they did, they processed leather. Cowhides would come in and they carried the cowhides to the plant and, of course, they had boards where they would scrape the hair off the hide. And then what they would do, they put the hide in a vat and then they would be able to work it and work it around. And back then, what they would do, they would bring bark off the tree and they'd take that bark down and that would color the hides. Now what my father – As they would dry, they would hang 'em in a loft and they would dry out. And my father had a little gauge, he would pull 'em down and that's what he would do. He would gauge them and sort 'em and then they would ship them out to the companies that would MB: The gauge, was that on the thickness? LP: The thickness. And of course he was able to observe and separate the hides in categories, you see. That was a very important job to be able to do that work. He did that most of his lifetime. Well, he worked there until he died. But a lot of people worked there, but that's no longer a company now because of synthetic _____ and everything came in so it made a difference. Go ahead. MB: I want to be sure to allow a lot of time to talk about your many board memberships because you have been on so many. I don't know whether we should do that now or – Is that OK? LP: OK. MB: If you would start talking about that because you are one of the most LP: Well, you know, its stranger than fiction I guess – When I got involved in the Boy Scouts over at the First Baptist Church and I began to do training - I was a trainer for a period of time - I began to meet people. You see, you gotta know people and I got involved in that program a great deal and then people would from that point of view then I got involved in the Scouting program. And then I got involved in the Scouting program in my church for a long period of time. And then, people began to know you and then they would invite me to serve on boards and there was a fellow who was with an insurance agent. He recommended me to serve on the United Way Board. That was my first board in this city, United Way. And I served on that board for a number of years but I not only served on the board but I did a lot of extra work in their campaign and everything. And then you got to know other people just like Red Cross. People got to know me and said, “Let's bring in Lew Peery.”, “Let's get Lew Peery on our board.”. 0.15.00.5 MB: That first board membership with United Way, do you have any idea when that was? LP: It was back in the early '50s. Maybe about '58 or somewhere along in that neighborhood. I started working/serving then. And then I got – You see the old Y was right here on the corner and I got involved in that and I served on that board for 40 years. And then what happened then when we merged, then I served on a ______ board 6 years. And then I got involved with the Council of Community Services. I served on their board – Served my time out on that board and then I got involved with the Red Cross Board and served on that board. And then I got involved in _______ extension board. I served on that board. Now, the other boards – I served on a lot of boards. One time, they accused me that I served on more boards individually than anybody else. But I spent a lot of time on those boards and working on the boards because I enjoyed doing that because, you see, I never had an opportunity. You see, when opportunity knocks, you have to take advantage of it. In my hometown, I never had an opportunity to do that. So when I moved here to Roanoke and people began to know �Lew Peery, well they'd say, “Well, let's get him involved.”. So that's how I became involved in so many boards here in the city. And I really enjoy it. And then something else happened that a lot of people don't know about. In working with United Way, I had a good white friend at the United Way. And we became close friends. He also worked in Scouting and one day he said to me, “Lew, would you like to be a member of the Lions Club?”. And I thought a little bit about that. I said, “Yeah, I'd like to be but I've never been asked.”. He said, “I'm thinking about organizing a Lions Club.”. I said, “You are?”. He said, “Yeah.”. I said, “You better tell me about it.”. He says, “What I'm thinking about organizing is an integrated Lions Club.”. I said, “Well, I'll tell you what you should do. I don't want you to be embarrassed and I don't want to be embarrassed. You check with the governor to see if you can get permission to do it.”. You have to have a club that sponsors you also. So he did that. So the governor told him, “You go ahead and set it up.”. Well, what he did, he recruited white and I recruited black. And that was the first integrated Lions Club in Virginia. 30 years – We're going to celebrate our 30th anniversary next year. MB: What's the name of it? LP: The Roanoke Valley Breakfast Lions Club. But it worked just wonderful. But something else happened. You see, women were not members of Lions Clubs. Women were lionesses. My wife was a lioness back then. Well, what really happened was, the National opened up the door and said, “We're gonna bring women into the Lions Club.”. We were the first club to bring a female into our club. So we were making history all the time. Of course, we lost her. She worked for the City, she died. But right now, we have just as many women in our club and they have been really wonderful. But there are still some clubs that don't want to bring women in. So, I thought I'd let you in on that. But we did that in the City of Roanoke and it worked out beautifully. And we've had a good time. Now that's a good club, Lions Club is a really good club. OK. MB: I want to back up and talk about your school life and then I want to talk about your work life. 0.19.23.0 LP: Well, in Pearisburg where I came from, we finally ended up having a junior high school that went to the 10th grade. Now, in order to acquire a high school education, we all blacks had to leave Pearisburg because they could not go to school there at the white high school. So, Christiansburg Industrial Institute by the Quakers and they had dormitories for boys and girls. About 5 members of my family attended Christiansburg and all we had to do was go there. We had such a good school at Pearisburg. We only had to go one year at Christiansburg then we were able to graduate. Now when I moved here, I had a brother and a sister who came here and lived with us and went to Addison. What a lot students – a lot of boys an girls, if you – you either had to come to Addison or Salem if you could get – live with somebody in Salem or in Roanoke or go to Bluefield if you wanted to get a high school education. So that was back in those days. Of course, when integration came along, everything changed and the concept and everything changed so that worked out. Now when you talk about education, the early part of my family – I have a sister who has a Master's Degree in Music. I have a brother who has his Master's Degree who has taught around in this area – Finished up his schooling in Florida and he is retired and he comes in and out of here – I think he kinda lives here in this Library but he is a great reader. He loves to read. And I had another brother who had his Master's Degree in German and English who taught at Howard but he didn't get his Doctorate Degree because he died at 47. And then I had a sister who went to college. She didn't stay there. She went along with _____. And then another brother who went to college in Music. So after the family began to move along, a lot of 'em – We got involved in education and we who were older than they, we helped them. That's how we were able to – Because my father didn't make a whole lot of money. So what we did, we would pool our resources and help them to get through college. So that worked out beautifully for them. And that was our educational background. MB: Tell me about your work, your first jobs and then your first work with the postal service. LP: Let me go back a little bit and tell you about my first job. When I graduated from high school in �1938, I couldn't find any work. I tried to obtain work at my father's tannery where he worked but I never could get there, never could get a job. I finally ended up – A good friend of my father who worked for Norfolk & Western on the rail gang. He came in one weekend and asked my father and mother to let me go back with him 'cause he had a position, a job for me there on the rail gang. You know, you travel _________. So I went back with him. And my job was a special job. I worked in the kitchen. And I laughed about that over the years when I did some work for the postal service. I said, “You know what my first salary was?”. They say, “What?”. My salary was $30 a month room and board and they couldn't believe it. (laughing) But that's how I started out. But I never stayed out there too long because I went on and came on back home and I worked for Norfolk & Western out on the rail gang for a little while but then I went with Celanese Corporation there between Narrows and Pearisburg separate to this place that closed down here. It was yarn back then but they still ____. So I worked there prior to the war, prior to my service and in 1943 I went into the Navy. I don't think I told you that. MB: No. LP: I went into the Navy in 1943. I stayed in the Navy 33 months and then the war was over and then I came back from the Navy. I went back to my job at Celanese and I stayed there until 1948. But I worked at Celanese – You see, you have to understand what people go through with. I'm gonna be honest with ya. I grew up – I didn't have any problems growing up as a youngster in Pearisburg. All of us, white and black, we played softball together, football together. We had a lot of fun together. We didn't talk a lot about race and everything like that. We just had a good time. Although, I couldn't – When I went to Celanese, I really couldn't get a good job. I was a janitor when I started working there. And when I used to do that work for the postal service, employment _______. I used to tell 'em when I came back from the service, I received a promotion and they said, “Mr. Peery, what was your promotion?”. I said, “I was promoted to a - just an ordinary employee.”. I never was able to move up. I tried to move up but I was never able to move up. So I just accepted it and went on. I was happy I had a dream that one day that I was gonna live here in Roanoke and one day, I was gonna carry mail in this city. And I never lost that dream. And what happened, a fellow gave me a little paper on the examination and I studied that and I was able to pass the examination. So that was how things happened for me over the years. 0.25.40.2 MB: Tell me again about your career with the Postal Service. LP: I carried mail for 18 years. For 4 years, I carried mail all over the city. I was just a substitute carried. I worked by the hour. When I left the VA, I had a regular position and the Postmaster here told me, it was a lady, said, “Mr. Peery, you know what you're doing?”. I said, “What do you mean?”. “You are leaving a regular position to come here to work in a part-time position and you're gonna work by the hour until you move up to become regular.”. I said, “I'm aware of that. But, I'll tell you what, I want to work for the Postal Service.”. So she says, “OK.”. Then she hired me. I worked that position – I worked as a carrier for 18 years as a carrier, strictly as a carrier. Well, things began to change. That was Post Office Department. You gotta know how time changes things. It was the Post Office Department back then. From 1965 to 1970, I still carried mail but I was an Ad Hoc Hearing Officer and Investigative Officer for Adverse Action. What they did, the employees who had trouble or suspension or whatever, they would just get rid of 'em or whatever it was, I would go out and conduct a hearing. And what I would have to do, I had to tape it, I'd come back to the office and sit down and write it up. I had to write up the case. I had to write a summary. I had to write the finding of facts and I had to make a decision – What would happen to that employee. And that was real challenging. I did that to 1970. Then, they abolished that job and brought in the Affirmative Action Program. They kinda knew me in Washington to a certain extent by working up there with Ad Hoc and I travelled a lot all over Virginia, Washington, Baltimore as a Hearing Officer. So then I went out when they opened up a new program. They called it the US Postal Service. See how they changed? Post Office Department �to the US Postal Service and then they brought in what they called the Affirmative Action Program. So then they decided that employees who filed discrimination complaints regardless of race or creed, color or national origin or whatever it was, they would send me in. If they filed a complaint and requested a hearing, requested counseling, then what I would do, I would put down my mail bag and tell the Postmaster I had a request to go counsel somebody. And I would go in and listen to their complaint and then I – both sides, Postmaster's side or his officer's side and then I would come back and write up the case. But I had to give them an opportunity. I couldn't tell 'em they didn't have any complaint. I had to just write the facts and let them do what they wanted to do and if they weren't satisfied with the results of mine. And then one day they said they wanted to have also place EEO, a specialist in the position. In Virginia, we had two district offices, one in Richmond and one here in Roanoke. So I moved out of the post office to the district office and I worked under the District Manager and that's who I worked for until I retired and they abolished my position. But then I'd put together all those reports and things and send 'em in. And what happened, I would have to send them in under the EEO program. I'd have to write up my reports and send my reports in to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and they would review them and then they would take it from there. On 3 occasions, I had to go to those offices that was a 3 month detail. So I gained a lot of experience working in the EEO program but its no longer the program that it used to be. But, it was a good program for employees who felt that they were discriminated against. I found a lot of things that needed to be changed. So, we did a lot of good work in that area. 0.30.03.0 MB: I was wondering what you learned about the working lives of people here in Roanoke from all those years of work. LP: I learned – I'll tell ya – I learned a lot of things about that work. In my position as an EEO Counselor or EEO Specialist, in my district, if somebody raised a complaint of discrimination – For example, if you took the examination and you got your grade and they were hiring and hadn't called you and you called and found out that Lewis Peery's the EEO Counselor, you would call and say, “Well, what I'd like to do, Mr. Peery, I'd like to have an interview with you. I'd like to file a complaint.”. And you'd come in and tell me, “You know, here is my grade.”. You'd bring your grade. “They're hiring. What about my grade?”. I had the authority in my position – All I had to do was call the ski (??) man. “Bring your report in here. I want to see your hiring practices.”. When that came aboard, the Postmaster had to be awful careful because I could just go in and ask for the records and they couldn't deny me giving me the record. And then, that's one thing that would help change things back in those days. When I started working at the post office, wasn't a female working on a workroom floor. But times began to change things. Everything began to change. We gotta be careful. But then you had to go back and look at if you were a ten-point service connected veteran, they couldn't bypass you regardless of your score to bring somebody in that was not a ten-point veteran. So, I learned a lot about the make-up and what you had to do and what they had to do in order that they'd be honest in their hiring practices. Same way with promotions. All that changed over the years and it made it better for everybody. I would've never had my position, like I told you earlier, if somebody in Washington hadn't have called this post office and told them, “We want a black man to come up here for this interview. The Postmaster would've never sent. That's just a fact. That's facts you see. Back in those days you see. Of course, things have changed now a whole lot. Alright, go ahead. (chuckle) I don't want to take up your whole time. I should – Everything going alright? OK. (chuckle) MB: I thought we'd talk a little bit about your home life on Rutheford Avenue and over the years just the things you all did in the evenings and your community life, your neighbors and LP: My wife and I took a lot of interest in our neighbors and we would help them when we were able to help them because she was community-minded too. And we had a neighborhood group there, Rutheford Avenue Block Club and we'd bring the neighbors in together and we'd talk about what we could do to improve the neighborhood. Same way here. Oh, there was one more thing I forgot to tell �you or that flipped up. I was part of the Roanoke Neighborhood Partnership for a long time. I forgot about that. I served as its President. That was an excellent program here in the city. So we did a lot of work in the community, both of us, 'cause we were kinda community-minded. MB: So the neighbors were really close on Rutheford. LP: Oh, yeah. Like I told you, we are the last two in the neighborhood of the whole block that was here when we moved here 58 years ago. MB: Are there still homeowners on that street? LP: That's a problem. We have a lot of rental property there. Most all – So many of the problems – Well, we still have some homeowners but everything has changed. Everything has changed and a lot of it - people are buying 'em and renting it and remodeling and renting it to the people. So, its changed a lot. MB: Back in the old days, were there businesses that you and Mrs. Peery would – favorite businesses in your neighborhood? 0.34.44.7 LP: We had a lot of stores. Back in those days, the Syrians had the store. There was a black family right here on Harrison Avenue that had a store, a grocery store, and there was another store up at the other end of Rutheford Avenue. We would go to – The Syrians were very nice. We didn't have any problems. They had things pretty reasonable. If we didn't want to go downtown. We didn't have an automobile you see. We'd go to those stores, patronize those stores. And we got along fine as far as that was concerned, supporting them. And now all of that is gone. All those stores are gone in the community. Everything changed, see how a community will change. MB: Did you use some of the businesses on Henry Street? Insurance or whatever, cleaners? LP: Yeah. _____ Cleaners was our big cleaners. They was right over here. And then we had a drugstore we patronized and they had some stores on Henry Street. We had an insurance agent which we were part of. Had barber shops. Had shops down here on Gilmer. So, there were a lot of businesses over there where you could go in and get a beer. And, of course, they had the Dumas Hotel and they served _______. And had a number of businesses over – And they had hotel. There was another hotel there on the street there too. Dumas Hotel was a big hotel. Now something else came up in mind when you talk about the Dumas Hotel back in those days. We had a lot of bands that would come to town and play at the Civic Center and they would stay at the Dumas Hotel. They couldn't stay at any other place but later on, Hale had a – opened up a place up in Salem but most of the people, those bands, musical people who came to town or they have to come to town to stay, they did stay at Dumas Hotel. MB: Did you ever see any of them or go to hear them? LP: Yeah, I would go to the Civic Center sometimes for like Count Basie, Cab Calloway are some of 'em that would come to town. We'd go to them sometimes. My wife didn't care about going but we'd go. MB: Were they at the City Auditorium? LP: Yeah, the City Auditorium, right down here – Well there was Commonwealth but its no longer Commonwealth Avenue. And then later on, they'd be up on across the street here over here but that's gone now. A fellow put up one and they used that a lot for music things and activities. Things began to bloom a little bit as the years began to pass by. MB: Did you ever go to the Club Morocco or the Ebony Club? LP: I never did go to that. Now we had a black theater. When we went to the theater downtown, we had to go in the back off of Kirk Avenue up the stairway, the Roanoke Theater. And later on, as the years passed, the theaters opened up. You could go to any of them. As time passed, you know. When things began to change, discrimination began to take off, began to look at very carefully and things began to open up. Just like Addison High School was the only school you could go to back then as far as high school. Of course, you could go to ____ public two high schools here, Addison and Jefferson �and then they had Carver. MB: In Salem. LP: Where my wife lived, in Vinton, went to high school in Salem. But see how things were back then. But you just got adjusted to it. You couldn't ride the buses up in front. When you got on the bus, you had to go to the back. Same way for the trains and different things. When you'd go downtown to drink water, the water cooler, I tested it up. They had one for black and one for white. I didn't find any difference but they said there was a difference I guess. (chuckling) MB: What were your memories of the Gainsboro Library? Did you know Mrs. Lee? LP: I knew Mrs. Lee. Mrs. Lee was a wonderful lady. Mrs. Lee was a member of the First Baptist Church and she was a devoted member over here and over at the First Baptist Church. She was an excellent Sunday School teacher. She taught ladies and I'll tell ya what happened to me. Mrs. Lee gave up that Sunday School class. The Superintendent came one Sunday and asked me if I would hold her class 'til they got somebody to teach. I shook my head. I said, “How can I do that?”. He said, “Its just temporarily.” That temporarily position lasted 33 years. All women, but I learned a lot and had a wonderful experience. But she was a good teacher and a good librarian and good citizen in this community, just lived up the street here too. 0.40.07.6 MB: So did you come into the library? LP: Yeah. Sometimes when I carried mail, I always came by here 'cause I delivered the mail. So I got to see her. She was a super lady. MB: Who were some of the community leaders that you admired the most? LP: I thought about that. Reverend A. L. James who pastored this church here for 38 years. MB: First Baptist, right? LP: First Baptist Church for 38 years. He was kinda my mentor. I joined that church and went on that official board under his leadership, I thought the world – He did a lot for this city that a lot of people didn't know what he was doing. But he worked with the people across town. He knew how to do that. Dr. Harry T. Penn who was a dentist was another one of my mentors. I though a lot of Harry T. Penn. He did a lot of work in this community in those years. And then Reverend - There was another minister over here at Hill Street that I liked very much MB: R. R. Wilkinson? LP: R. R. Wilkinson. I thought a lot of R. R. Wilkinson. He did a lot of work through the NAACP and for the community. We had another young lawyer, Rubin Lawson. And then we had a doctor, E.D. Downing. So we had some people that were kinda working hard back in those days for the city and I just thought a lot of – those were some of my mentors in the city. MB: And the things that they did for the city were they – What do you mean? Were they helping individuals or were they - ? LP: They were helping the city. They were trying to help the city come together and maybe look at each other and respect each other and maybe job opportunities and different things like that. Because the job opportunities were kinda scarce back then for minorities anyway. Norfolk & Western was a key factor back then and the service tracks and things you know, a lot worked in the office down there, that big office you know. So things were moving, began to move a little bit as time passed by. MB: I was wondering what you remember of the desegregation of the businesses downtown. LP: I'm gonna be very honest with you. When they desegregated, I don't know what it was. I had no problems. I had no problems myself. MB: You mean before they desegregated? LP: After desegregation. Now before, I knew where I could go and where I couldn't go. Now there was one place I always wanted to go was S&W because I thought that was a super place. MB: That's a cafeteria. LP: A cafeteria. �MB: Down on Church Avenue. LP: Church Avenue. But I'll tell ya what happened. Time tells ya how things changed. When we organized our Lions Club, Breakfast Club, that's where we went for our meetings. Now, they had an upstairs, you know, they served upstairs too, you know. And that's where we would go and have our breakfasts until they closed. No problem. We'd go through the line downstairs and go right on upstairs 'cause a lot of times they didn't have a line upstairs, serving upstairs. So that was some of the things we did. Of course, we shopped downtown and everything with all the stores. Everybody had their special stores. Ladies had their special stores. Men had their special stores. So that was a big thing downtown. Davis' is the only store down there now for men. All of 'em are gone. But I didn't have any problem. But I certainly checked that drinking fountain to see if there was any difference in the water. (chuckling) Didn't find any. (chuckling) MB: How has Gainsboro changed? 0.44.33.3 LP: Its not the same anymore. All the businesses are gone that was once here. Henry Street is gone. Its gone. But you gotta understand it. It served its purpose back in those days. That's the only thing that we had was Henry Street, a place to go and to get some food and everything. Go over there if you wanted to go to the Ebony Club or go to the theater. We all participated in that. When desegregation came about, then it changed. Then what happened, we could go where we wanted to. You could go to any of the restaurants. I remember the first time. We couldn't go to Hotel Roanoke. But I remember one time, I had a good friend who worked in Scouting. He – Gave him the Silver Beaver Award, the highest award in Scouting in 1952. He had to sit in the kitchen over there before they would bring him in to present his award. Now, I got the Silver Beaver Award in 1964. My wife and I went in the Crystal Ballroom. You see how thing begin to change. You gotta look back. I know what it was but then you got to look farther. You see some negative parts but then its all so positive. I looked at both sides of it, the positive part and the negative part. When I was in the Navy, I got on a train here in Roanoke or I'd catch it at Pearisburg, I had to sit back in the segregated car. When I got to Bluefield, moved anywhere I wanted to. When I came home, I could ride anywhere I wanted to until I got to Bluefield and then I had to move back. Those things you had to look at and adjust to them. You don't know anything about that young lady. (chuckling) I'm just talking history, what went on. You see you never know if you don't hear anybody talk about it. You'd never know. And the young people in this day and time, they don't want to hear about that. They don't want to know how, what we really went through in order to survive. When we went somewhere, we had to be careful. If you wanted to buy gas somewhere, if you want to use a restroom – What's that program they had, that guy was driving Daisy? Did you see that? MB: Driving Miss Daisy. LP: But you know, it was something to that. It was something to that. Now you'd go to ask somebody, “Sorry, our restrooms out of order.”. So you had to – It was something to have to go. But we survived. OK, you go back to your questions. (chuckling) I get caught up in it and start talking. MB: Its wonderful. What are your memories of Urban Renewal? LP: I'm gonna be honest with ya about Urban Renewal. A lot of people may not agree with me what I'll say about Urban Renewal. I'm gonna go back in Northeast for Urban Renewal. I carried mail down there. There were some good houses in Northeast but there were some houses that were not good. Now, my thinking on one side, I thought it was good. A lot of people got good homes when they moved to Northwest. You see, back then when I moved here, there were no minorities beyond 10th Street. No minorities. But now they are beyond 10th Street. They moved out of Northeast and they got nice homes. I know some of them suffered. I know that. But it was better. I have talked to some of them and they said, “Well, we suffered but we're living better.”. 'Cause some of those houses were not so good down through there and I know that. All that over at Pocahontas Avenue, Gregory Avenue, I know all about because I carried the mail down there and I saw the conditions of some of those houses. �Now, over here in Northwest, that's beautiful over there. Nice homes. Of course they __________ more money than they did down in Northeast but that's a price you pay, you know, for better living. So, I thought it was good. It had its negative parts of it but it had its pluses you see. So, I thought it was good _______. Now back then – You gotta look at things – Lincoln Terrace was nice. A lot of the people moved to Lincoln Terrace but that changed. Its better now. But see these things changed and then they come back you see. So, that's just my concept of the city. And you know what? I love Roanoke. I'm kinda like Noel C. Taylor. OK, go ahead. (chuckling) You get me caught in this and I get to talking about it, but that's my concept of it. But not a lot of people agree with my concept of Urban Renewal. You know something else when I came here, Henry Street was a nice street. My wife told me that they always went – They had to walk – See my wife and her father – My father-in-law never had a real job. He did furnaces and things back in those days. He had special families that he worked for. So what he would do, they would get up early in the morning and come in and help here. You see they had to work. He had those girls and all of 'em did that. They would help him with offices and everything early in the morning and then they'd go on to Addison and go to school or whatever they had to do. Back in those days, that's what would happen to them. They had to work. They were closely knitted. And sometimes they had to stay with the white families in order to go to school in the city. See there was a lot going on back in those days when you look at the history of what has happened and, of course, Henry Street was there and that's all we had. So we had to make ____. But there were some good businesses over there and some fine people over there. Dr. Brooks had a fine drugstore over there. And Green had a shoe shop. And Dr. Downing had his office over there and they had an offices up there, Dr. Brown and Dr. Penn. They had all that over there on Henry Street. North Carolina butrum (??) was on the corner of Wells Avenue and 1st Street. And shoe shops and barber shops here and barber shops over here, funeral homes and everything. This was really the heart of Gainsboro as far as the businesses were concerned back in those days. So you accepted it to the best of your ability and moved along. OK, go ahead, I'm sorry. 0.51.46.3 MB: Oh no, this is so good. Before I forget, I wanted to make sure that we talked a little bit about your Navy service, where you went and what you did. LP: I served – I was recruited here in Roanoke and I prepared to go into the Army. I thought the Army would be wonderful. But I came here to Roanoke and took the examination – They examined me and they put on my form, “Navy”. And I was just disgusted. It also said I would qualify for submarine duty. But once I went into the Navy, I went to Great Lakes, Illinois, and stayed there 6 weeks training, I learned something. And through the years - I stayed in the Navy 33 months - I always said, I wish I could see that doctor who put me in the Navy. I'd give him a big hug because I had a good Navy career. I went to Great Lakes, Illinois, for my training, came back home and I went to Hasting, Nebraska. We opened up a Naval Depot there. We made ammunition for the fleet. That's what I did for 2 years. I stayed right there in Hasting, Nebraska, at the Naval Depot. And something else too. There were not many minorities in Hasting, Nebraska. We had to go to Omaha, Nebraska, for liberty every other week. MB: How far? LP: 150 miles. 150 miles. And the buses were kinda like cattle, no heat and wintertime was really rough, really rough. Well, my time ran out at Hasting, Nebraska, and they sent me to – I went to Hawaii. I still worked with ammunition in Hawaii but I didn't stay there too long 'til the war was over. But they always called something about “going down” to go down to some of the other islands but I stayed there at Oahu for the rest of my time in the Navy and then I came back and was discharged on December 29, up in Tennessee. MB: So you were in Oahu after Pearl Harbor? LP: Mm mm. I was there after Pearl Harbor. I was there during Pearl Harbor – No, after Pearl Harbor. I wasn't there during Pearl Harbor but I went there after Pearl Harbor. But when I went back on �vacation, I saw the change in that island. All those hotels and everything – I couldn't hardly find the old Halelua but its still there. So I stayed there about 6 or 7 months before I was discharged. MB: I'm glad you went back. LP: I've been back a couple of times on vacation 'cause I love it. Its really nice. I better not say this on TV but I got a deeper suntan there too. (laughing) They didn't record that did they? But I love the water. I love the beach. OK, go ahead, I'm sorry. 0.55.07.0 MB: I guess we're about done. There are so many more things we would love to talk with you about. LP: You know something happened that I want to tell you about. I want to tell you something about the libraries. I'm going back to my wife. As I told you earlier, my wife did a lot of work here in the community. She was all over the city. Everybody – All these businesses for the ad for Halcon (??) Company, they just really loved her. And she traveled around and pick up the ads for different places or Halcon (??) Company because that was the only ad (??) company back then. Well, one day, the lady in the office sent her across – Told her to go to the library across town and she went across town for the library. She had called and told her what books she wanted. So she went in to pick up the books and the lady said to her, “What are you doing coming here, picking up books here? You need to go to Gainsboro Library.”. My wife was very disappointed. She just said to her, “Well, I'm sorry. The lady from the office called me and told me to come here to pick up these books and that's why I'm here.”. She gave her the books but when she went back to the office, that lady called her up and told her, “You don't do a thing like that.” She gave her a little _______ about it. But those things kinda happen sometimes. That shows you how some people think back in that time. Of course, this was a good library but they felt like that library is for blacks so you go to your library _________. ______. So those are some of the things that occurred back in those days but time changes a lot of things. I'm through. I hope I haven't talked too much. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2632/PeeryLewis.1.JPG cf04094ff4e89b361249616905c4a242 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lewis Peery Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Lewis Peery Interviewer: Mary Bishop Date: 12 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 57:13 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewis Peery; Mary Bishop; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PeeryLewis https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2631/Day_Charles_[compressed].mp3 9951582639ef0cbcc2e00cdda6055784 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2631/DayCharles.pdf eeb57599fc95d0cb50fd9715431ffc38 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Charles Day Interviewer: Dr. Reginald Shareef Transcriber: Andrew Sterling RS: Good morning Coach Day. I still call you Coach Day. (both laughing) Well, they've covered the questions about your background. So I'm gonna start with your education. The way I'd like to do this Coach Day is just to ask you some open-ended questions and periodically, I'll ask you to expound upon something you say. If there's something you want to expound upon, that you think would be important or pertinent to the project, feel free to do it. Carla set this up for an hour so we'll set that as a time frame. We may finish earlier. The goal is to ask you questions and develop some depth about your experiences in the Gainsboro community and Roanoke since you've been here and how you view things, how things have changed in your life, etc? So that's where we're going with this. OK. So the first question under education is: Talk about your school life. For instance, where did you attend school? Did you walk to school, etc. CD: I attended school in Radford, Virginia. I went to a school they called Home Boger (??) Elementary School in Radford. For the first year, we walked to school. It was a couple of miles. Then, the second year, we went to – had a new school in Radford called Fred Weigle (??) Elementary School named after one of the State Superintendents of school. And, we rode the city bus. RS: OK. CD: And after elementary school, I went to Christiansburg Industrial Institute in Christiansburg, Virginia. It was a regional high school which comprised of ______ (??) and Floyd County, Montgomery County, Pulaski County, Radford City and we also had a dormitory for girls and for boys and kids from out of the school district, even out of state, came to board there. That was Christiansburg Institute. Then from that point, I went to Virginia State College at that time, but now its Virginia State University. RS: Our Alma Mater. CD: OK, you're familiar. (both laughing) RS: Yes, I am. CD: Then, I did my advanced work, Masters, at Radford where you are now. RS: That's right. CD: At that time, it was Radford College but now Radford University. RS: Now Coach Day, during this period, were all of these schools segregated, during your elementary and on through your undergraduate degree? CD: Yes, they were segregated at the time. RS: OK. How far did you have to go past white schools to get to the various schools you went through in Radford? CD: Yes. In elementary and in Radford and then when I went to high school in Christiansburg, Virginia, which was Montgomery County. We had to ride a bus. We rode a bus for about 8 miles one way. RS: So from Radford to Christiansburg Institute it was about 8 miles. CD: 8 miles. RS: 8 mile ride. And these were city buses or CD: They were school buses. RS: Yellow school buses like today? CD: Yes. RS: And then when you went to Virginia State, I know that was one of the historically black colleges and universities. So up until you finished college, most of your education had taken place in an all black environment. CD: That's correct. �RS: What was your impression of the schools? For example, when you were at, in elementary school and junior high school and high school in Radford or in the area, the Montgomery County area, describe the schools. Were they – How were the schools heated, for example, in the elementary schools? CD: How were they? RS: Heated. CD: OK. In elementary school at the Home Boger (??) school, it was a little pot-belly stove. RS: OK. CD: And the fellows, we had to keep it going. RS: OK. CD: That was one of your unwritten duties. (both laughing) And when I got - after the first few years in elementary school, we went to Fred Weigle School. It was a new school. So it had a central heating system. Then, of course, at Christiansburg Industrial Institute, it was a campus-style high school. Like a little college campus but they had furnaces in each of the individual buildings. RS: Oh, OK. So, the pot-belly stove was in your elementary schools and then you went to a new high school and so that did have central air. CD: It was a new elementary school where they had the central and then from that point on, it was localized in each building. RS: What about your textbooks? Do you remember any conversations – For example, I know when I was growing up here in Roanoke in the late 60s in high school, we used to get books, old books from Jefferson for example, after the kids had used the books there. Was that something you experienced growing up or do you remember that or anybody ever talking about things like that? CD: As far as I can remember, it never came up. RS: OK. CD: As far as I can recall, the textbooks were adequate as far – I never did hear too much about that. RS: Any other differences between the schools of your education when you were growing up that stand out in your mind? 0.05.37.5 CD: Well, it basically was – it was more travel time because the high school, Radford High School, was only about less than a mile from our home. RS: OK. CD: So perhaps I could've walked there, you know. But, we rode the bus and that was the way it was so it never crossed my mind to go there. You know what I mean? I developed allegiance to the Christiansburg Institute. Our nickname was Tigers. So all the little kids in elementary school wanted to be a Tiger. (both laughing) RS: Exactly. CD: I guess from time to time, you'd have a flashback as to what the situation was but it never really lingered very long because we were so involved in activities. You didn't want to miss a day from school. You didn't want to miss an activity so that was a – that was the closeness that developed. I tell you another little side-line is that in Radford, the football team from the white high school, they would always let us in when they had their game. They'd let us into the game for free, the football players. The kids who lived in Radford who played football at Christiansburg. And we would do the same for them when we – 'cause we used to play our home games in Radford. RS: Oh, OK. That was great. CD: We had a reciprocal arrangement. RS: They didn't do that here in Roanoke so that was something pretty unique up there. Now, its not on here but since I know some of your history and you just mentioned sports, what sports did you play growing up? CD: I played football in high school. Basketball and baseball. �RS: Which was your favorite? I heard you really liked baseball. CD: I did like baseball. It was – Of course, I liked the others but I felt that I wasn't large enough to have gone to any level beyond college in football or basketball. But in baseball, I had aspirations to go further. And I guess if I were to pick a favorite, it would have been baseball. RS: I heard you initially say you were born in 1934. Jackie Robinson integrated baseball, I think Branch Rickey signed him in 1947 or whatever, and since you were an aspiring baseball player, do you remember Jackie Robinson signing? Did it impact you or did it have any influence on you at that time? CD: Yes, it did. I was glad for him and I was glad for the race. It opened up another venture and another avenue of success. I was delighted for him and found later on that he was chosen because they felt he could handle it and everything and I later on discovered that there were perhaps other players who were better than Jackie but they felt they didn't have the complete picture and it was a good lesson in life. It takes more than just athletic ability. RS: Well that's right. There were other athletes – a lot of athletes in negro baseball that were more gifted than Jackie Robinson and a lot of them sort-of resented it but the fact that Jackie Robinson had gone to UCLA, played football, was All-American Football Player there and he just had, like you said, the social development to withstand the taunts and not to fight or not to respond at least verbally. I understand that sometimes when you stole a base, he came in with spikes up. There was some revenge there but at least not overtly. Now when you went to Virginia State, did you play sports there? CD: I played football, baseball and a I wrestled. RS: Oh, OK. Well good. And your experience at Virginia State was a good experience? CD: It was a good experience. I feel that I could have had a more successful career. Hindsight is always more accurate. RS: Exactly. CD: But I thoroughly enjoyed it and I remember the best advice – one of the best pieces of advice I got/received prior to going to college was a white banker in Radford. RS: OK. CD: He told me, he said, “You go there as a football player” and he had never played sports but he said, “Go there in mid-season form and impress the coaches, that they can't do without you”. Which is true. And I passed that on to other kids that I worked with. RS: So you feel like a lot of – for a guy like me that came up through segregated schools and went on to Virginia State like you did and – I've always felt that a lot of the lessons, especially a lot of the character lessons that people like you provided for me when I was coming through school, other people, has served me well as I've gone on to the broader society. Do you share that kind of feeling? CD: Oh yes, yes. A lot of people, people I've known right after high school. I was trying out for the, at the time it was the Milwaukee Braves and they had a try-out camp in Lynchburg and where they would invite players from the area – bring you shoes, your gloves and spikes, and they had about – the scouts from the particular company – um, team would assemble there and you could go there and they'd have maybe 200 experienced professional players there to try out and it was really – you had to be at your physiological peak in order to excel and get the recognition. So, I had gone to one of those that Pittsburgh had, the Pittsburgh Pirates and then the Milwaukee Braves, but I wasn't successful at that time. That's when I went on to college. RS: Now around this time, when you were 20 years old, 1954, the Brown vs Board of Education decision was handed down and it said that separate was inherently unequal. Do you remember at 20 any impact of that decision? Did you see it in any way affecting or having an impact on your life? CD: It changed your thinking because you knew there were going to be some changes. RS: OK. CD: It kind of sent up a red flag that changes are coming and you think about the dynamics of change. You knew that there were going to be some new routes to go different places. And it made you aware of – it prepared you for some changes down the road. �RS: Yeah, because when you think about your life - you were born in 1934 and in 1947 when you were 13, Jackie Robinson signs, 1948 President Truman desegregates the military, 1954 Brown vs Board of Education – So a lot of things were going on in your teenage and early adult life that really later had an impact on opportunities that you had, decisions you were making, etc. Let's see. I also know – 'cause you were in the military right? CD: Yes. RS: What years were you in the military? CD: I was in the military. I went into the – I entered the service on May 2, 1957. And I was discharged April 23, 1959. I went in under the 6-year plan. Two years of active duty, two years of active reserve and two years of stand-by. RS: I see. CD: And I did not get my commission at Virginia State. RS: Yeah, I was going to ask you about ROTC. CD: I was in ROTC 3 years but I did not get my commission because I thought I was going to get a baseball contract. RS: Oh, I see. CD: And if I had gotten my commission – At that time, you had to make a commitment of up to 5 years in the service and I felt that after 5 years in the service, I would've been too old to have done anything. RS: Pursued a career. CD: Yeah. And when I went in the service, a lot of my friends, they were commissioned officers and I was a non-commissioned – and so that was a downside of it. RS: Overall, where did you serve? Did you do overseas duty during that period? CD: Yes. I did my basic training in Fort Hood, Texas, and I was lucky I did my advance training at Fort Lee, Virginia, at Quarter Masters, right next door to Virginia State. And then after that, I went to Fort Dicks and we were shipped to Germany. RS: OK. CD: And I was over there for 18 ½ months and I taught at the Army Education Center, Math and Science while I was over there - And officiate ballgames over there. And I played baseball and softball and we played a lot of flag football. It was a good experience. Then I went on a service club tour and I had a chance to see that part of the world. RS: I see. CD: Europe, Asia and Africa. Travelled around on the service club tour. It was a good lesson within itself. RS: It sounds like you a lot in 2 years. CD: Yeah, I did. Well, you know, we were over there and didn't have a family so – Amsterdam and caught the World's Fair in Brussells, Belgium and went to Copenhagan, Denmark and a lot of those places. I went to Paris, France and Nancy. I travelled around. It was a good experience. RS: Now as an African-American man in Europe in the late 1950s, how do you feel like you were treated? CD: You got mixed reactions. RS: OK. CD: I tell you a little joke we had – at the World's Fair in Brussells, Belgium, there was a South African official, a white South African – he was at the World's Fair and we were there. We had on our civilian clothes. He asked us where were we from. We didn't tell him we were in the Army, we told him we were exchange students. (both laughing) We were trying to up our stance 'cause the military was a very important part because without the military, we wouldn't have peace, you know. So we were kind of – told a little fib. We told the gentleman that we were exchange students. He was nice. We were talking about the different situations in the country and things like that. It was a good �dialogue. RS: OK, yeah, it sounds like it. CD: And later as we concluded the conversation then we explained to him that we were GI's. (both laughing) He enjoyed it. RS: Well, good. Now when you were teaching in the military, you taught in integrated classes obviously? CD: Yes. These were gentlemen, soldiers who had not finished their high school diploma so we taught Math and Science so they could finish and get their GED. RS: Sure. 0.16.47.6 CD: So we taught it during the day and it was good duty, in the classroom and everything. They called it the Army Education Center. RS: OK. It sounds like it was good preparation for your future career. CD: Yes. RS: So you went on and you got a Master's at Radford University? Now what year was that? CD: That was – (interruption by someone coming in the room) I have to do a little reflecting. Let me see. That was in 1970 'cause I had to have that in order to secure the principalship of Loudon. RS: So that was in Administration? CD: Administration and Guidance. RS: So when you got back from – well, they have one other question on here – Did anyone else in your family attend college. CD: My daughter, my sisters, they attended college for 1 or 2 years. Then my brother finished college. He finished at Virginia State also. He was the editor of the school newspaper when he was there. RS: Oh really? CD: Yeah. That's my younger brother. RS: OK, alright. So, you and your brother were really the first out of your immediate family to finish college? CD: Yes. RS: I know that was a major accomplishment. CD: Yeah, it was. I was delighted for that. I was so glad that I was able to do that. RS: As you were coming up, did your parents emphasize going to college or, you know, a lot of black families, again, even when I was growing up, there was emphasis in some families on going to college. There was some emphasis on, you know, finishing high school and going to work. In your family, what was the situation? CD: It was a little of both. Primarily, my mother and father gave me an opportunity to kind of find our own path and then they would support us. I was – I always wanted to go into college and I wanted to try to – as the old Army “Be the best that I could be”. So that was – My father was a railroad man. He worked for Norfolk and Western for 51 years and my mother was a housewife. And my father ran a barber shop and he was a farmer. He worked all the time. (Both laughing) RS: He was multitasking before the term came about. CD: Yes and he was good at carpentry, brick masonry and he had a cute little habit – He had me do a project and if it wasn't done up to his standards, he wouldn't say a word to me. He would just go redo it himself. And I would get the message. RS: Sure. CD: A nice silent treatment and it was a good learning lesson for me – a good approach to use in life. Instead of getting emotionally upset, you know. It was a learning tool and I used that same technique a lot in school work with kids. RS: Sure, well that's a good way to teach as opposed to getting really upset and fussing and complaining. �CD: Blood pressure up. RS: That's right. (both laughing) Well now, I find that interesting – your sisters had an opportunity to go to college as well because at the time, a lot of black women that I was familiar with didn't. The families didn't encourage them to go to college so that sounds like there was a lot of focus in your household in education. Continuing that theme, so you got out of the Army in 1959. You graduated from Virginia State. You had taught in the military. Did you then pursue a teaching career? CD: Yes. RS: OK, where was that? CD: Amherst County. Amherst, Virginia. RS: And how long were you there? CD: I was there for 2 years. RS: OK. And then – now I know you got to Addison High School in 1966 because I got to Addison High School in 1966 and you were my gym teacher so I know that. So between 1961/62 and 1966, where were you? CD: I was in Montgomery County. I went back home, living in Radford and I was the principal of French (??) Elementary School in Montgomery County, right on 460, right out from where Christiansburg High School is built now. Real small black school and the Quakers had given that to the black kids for their education. And that's how that was exceptional. That was my first principalship. And was principal there for 5 years. And I would come back home. I was just as happy as I could be and I got the principalship. RS: Alright, OK. And then, of course, I have to ask you now what year did you and Mrs. Day get married? CD: That was in 1961. RS: 1961. OK. And then, you left there and came to Addison, you came to Roanoke in 1966 right? CD: They integrated in Montgomery County and the Superintendent had told all the teachers where they were going – the janitor, the cook and everybody but they hadn't told me where I was going. And so there was a little period of uncertainty. So I decided I had better try to find – because I may be receiving something I may not want and all the other principalships in the county had been filled and that's when I applied in Roanoke. I heard there was an opening and so I applied and am very thankful that I got the job. RS: So now you're coming from Christiansburg and Amherst County, more rural places, and you come to the Mighty Bulldogs. And I know you were a guidance counselor over there at Addison as well, right? CD: Yes. RS: What was it like coming to Addison High School? It was huge, all black, sometimes unruly high school. (laughing) What was that like? CD: What – Let me back up a little bit now. When I first came out of the Army, I applied for Roanoke City 'cause coach Price, the football coach, was leaving to go to Fairfax County. And I applied for the coaching job 'cause I had just gotten out of the Army and I thought I knew all about football and everything. But Miss Gibney (??) who was one of the first female Superintendents in the state. She told me, she said, “Charles, you don't have any high school coaching experience. Even though you may be very capable of doing it”. She was very sweet. She said, “Roanoke is a football town, so you need a little experience”. That's how I got the job at Amherst because she had hired the coach from Amberst to come to Roanoke. So that was a little – I'm going back a little bit. So when I came – When the job opened up in Roanoke then she hired me and that was 5 years later. And so I got the job. And so when I came to Roanoke, I was delighted. Because Addison was a big school and Roanoke was a large city. Born in Radford, about 10,000 people – Roanoke 6 figures. It was a step up, you know? RS: Sure, sure. CD: And so I started off as a Physical Education teacher, Junior Class sponsor and assistant football, �assistant baseball – I mean assistant football, baseball coach and JV basketball. I was in hog heaven. RS: That's right. (both laughing) So now, from 1966 and then I heard you say you finished your Master's at Radford in 1970 so you could _____ (??). So Addison was closing down or being scaled back to a middle school I guess in the early '70s. But, you left in '70 to become the principal at Loudon? CD: Yes. What happened was I was 2 years at Addison coaching and then Miss Georgia Brown who was the guidance coordinator left to go into the Upper Bound Program at Roanoke College. So that created an opening in guidance. Well, a lot of the staff members were hesitant to apply for the job 'cause they knew Georgia was coming back. RS: I see. CD: So me being young, I tossed my hat in the ring. So I got the Guidance Coordinator position at Addison. Which I really enjoyed being a Guidance Coordinator of a large high school. So it was a golden opportunity and I was young enough not to fear her coming back, sliding back. And so I got that job and so my 3rd year at Addison, I was a Guidance Coordinator. I thoroughly enjoyed that. RS: OK. So then you went to Loudon as – That was your first principalship? CD: First principalship. RS: And how long were you at Loundon? CD: One year because then they closed it. RS: OK. Alright. And then you went to CD: I went to Addison. I was sitting there at my desk one day. My secretary told me that Dr. Alcorn was on the phone. So I went and I got the phone and Dr. Alcorn said, “Charles, I want to appoint you principal of Addison. Would you accept?” And I told him enthusiastically, “Yes”. And he said, “OK”. So we concluded that conversation. I sat down at my desk and I kind of pinched myself. I said, “This little country boy has got the Addison principalship”. My first principalship of a high school. I was delighted. And in those days, integration was taking place in the state of Virginia. There were very few black principals, high school principals and I was delighted. You know, I was among the few. And I think, at that time, I don't think north of, I mean west of Richmond, I don't remember very many being north of Richmond. There were some from that point on, you know, in the eastern part of Virginia. So, I was delighted. I had to pinch myself. I couldn't believe it. I didn't want him to change his mind. (both laughing) RS: Well that was a pretty quick ascension. I mean, yeah, I mean, you had come here in 1966 and by 1971, you were the principal of the school, that's pretty fast rise. CD: I think about all the other people that they could've appointed. That's the reason why I was grateful. 'Cause I'm aware there are a lot of talented people in the area. RS: Well, maybe you – getting back to the Jackie Robinson analogy, maybe it was all of your qualities that allowed the superintendent to say, “Charles – I want Charles Day for this position”. CD: Well, maybe so. I was really happy with it. RS: Now as principal of Addison High School, you began to interact a lot with – Or did you interact with a lot of the principals, at Patrick Henry, Jefferson and Flemming who were your white colleagues? CD: Yes. Well, what happened was it was a challenging period because they were integrating – integration in Roanoke City and they had – at first they thought they were going to close Addison. They were going to make it a vocational, regional high school where they would have vocation and academic offerings. So myself and a couple of the central office people, we went to Henrico County to observe a school meeting that particular description. And then, we came back with the plans of implementing that at Addison because the judge had ordered we were going to integrate. Well, what happened, we worked on that and 2 weeks before school opened, a judge gave a decree that stated that Addison was going to open as a comprehensive high school. So, we had to go back to the drawing board and so we opened as a comprehensive high school. So there was a change in philosophy and so we opened as a comprehensive high school. Prior to that, interaction with – the question you asked �interacting with the other high school principals, the principals at Patrick Henry, Jefferson and Flemming and Addison, we met to decide – the judge had ordered that there be a 75% white and 25% black and so we had to appropriate the staff accordingly. I was the new kid on the block and so they were shifting people. So where we had a predominant black staff at Addison, we were the major changed station. So we had to go to 75% white faculty, 25% black faculty. So we were shifting people around to get ready for school opening. So, that's how we had a lot of interacting with the other principals. 0.30.05.1 RS: See, so when you were – the first year you were the principal of Addison, 75% of the faculty was white? CD: Yes. RS: Oh, OK. Did that raise any types of management or administrative challenges for you? CD: Yeah, it did because there were new people and then the people coming in, they were new to the situation. It was a former all-black high school and they were coming and so, there was pressure on them, adjustments. So you had to look at it from – there was a lot of pressure on everybody. RS: But you guys go through it OK? CD: Yes. And most of all, like I told the kids at the reunion, that the truly great Americans were those little kids who were going to the integrated schools. RS: Exactly. CD: You know the parents and leaders, they were home. It was those little kids in a black and white school, that was the pressure. They're the ones who had the pressure. So we had to make the most of it. RS: OK. Now, how long were you at Addison? CD: For 3 years. RS: For 3 years. And then, what was your next position? CD: Well, they decided that they were going to close 2 high schools, that they didn't need 4 in Roanoke City. And that meant that they were going to close Jefferson and Addison and have Flemming and Patrick Henry. So the superintendent offered me the principalship of Woodrow Wilson Junior High School or stay at Addison Junior High School or go to Flemming as its co-principal. RS: OK. CD: Or go to Ruffner as principal. Ruffner Junior High – Ruffner was a new high school, airconditioned, just had been built 3 years. So, I chose Ruffner. I didn't want to go to Flemming 'cause I felt it was – it would be hard on us trying to be co-principals of a high school. Woodrow Wilson was a little out of the area and I didn't want to stay at Addison 'cause it would've been a reflection on that they changed the school. So then I chose Ruffner. And I went there and stayed for 12 years. RS: 12 years, that's right. Well good. We'll come back to more of your education and your professional history. We've covered that pretty well. There's a heading here – Describe your home life, for instance, and I would assume this is when you were growing up – Did you gather around the radio in the evening as a family? Do you remember when you got a telephone, refrigerator, this type thing? CD: Yes, we uh, its hard for the kids to realize, radio was the media. That's how you listened to you shows. I tell you a cute little thing my older brother used to do. They used to have a radio show called Inner Sanctum, squeaky doors and it was kind of like a mystery and ghosts and everything. So, he turned off the lights and we would listen. (both laughing) RS: Oh, OK. CD: It was kind of silly when you really think about it but it was entertainment. We'd listen to that radio show. It was just tradition. When the show came on, we'd turn off the lights and we kids, little siblings, be around. (laughing) Now that I'm older, it was cute. RS: You created your own ambiance. CD: That's true. �RS: Scary program, cut the lights off, it was like being at the movies. CD: Everybody shaking. (both laughing heartily) But it was 3 of us, 3 girls and 3 boys and we got along very well and my youngest was my brother who lives in Blacksburg, you know. His son's a basketball coach at Blacksburg High School. They just won the region golf tournament at Blacksburg High School. So it was 3 of us. We got along very well and it was a lot of fun. We now reminisce about the good old days, you know. Of course now, my oldest brother and my oldest sister have passed and – little side line – I told my 2 sisters and my brother, “I'm the oldest living one” and I said, “We've got to reverse that order”. (both laughing) RS: You don't want to be next in line. (both laughing) CD: I don't want to be next in line. They enjoy that little family humor you know. 0.34.24.3 RS: Well, you know my father like your father worked for the Norfolk and Western. He worked 42 years. One of the interesting things that I always remember about our home life with my father was that, and like your father, he worked at least until I was about 12 or 13 because there were 3 of us and children going to college. And my mother worked. But he also worked a second job. Most of the men that worked for the railroad worked at least one other job. And so I was thinking about this question because usually, by the time my father got home and sat down for a few minutes, ate dinner, he was going to bed because he had to get back up the next morning and start the routine over. And so, our primary time to be together, I guess, was dinner. And, of course, I guess, as I think back about my father, the guy was really busy. He never complained about it but he was a very busy man 'cause he always had something to do and that type thing and so as far as like, you know, when I was doing things growing up, he was always working. And I heard you talk about your father working for the railroad, being a carpenter, and being a farmer as well. When you were playing sports, did your father and mother have an opportunity to attend your sporting events and things like that? 0.35.53.1 CD: Well, not as much as I would've liked. My father worked like he did. I always wanted him to see the game. I think he saw one or two games. See, he worked the midnight shift at the railroad from 11 at night to 7 in the morning. And he was always going and ran a barber shop on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. And in those days, they worked 7 days. A lot of people are not aware of it. 7 days on the railroad, you know. And its something. Let me have a quick little interruption, for me, your father is a good man. He was a very nice man. RS: Well, they worked and they were really – I know as far as my father was concerned, they felt because they had railroad jobs that they were very grateful for those jobs because a lot of the other black men didn't have jobs and didn't have insurance and that type thing but they worked and that was the whole – My father was never late for work. In fact, he was very proud of the fact that he worked for the railroad for 42 years and he only missed 17 days and so they didn't miss work. They really valued those positions and so a lot of the things that one would think about – I played sports at Monroe Junior High School, but my father never got to see me play. He wouldn't ask off. I mean, I would come home and tell him about the games and he'd be happy for me but as far as getting off from work – In fact, one of the things he told all 3 of us was not to ever get in trouble at school so that they would have to call down to the railroad that he would have to get off. And I guess just before you became principal over at Addison, Julian Moore was there. And one time, we did something that Mr. Moore told us we shouldn't do. We rented a bus and went to a football game and he had told us not to do it. So, I'll never forget it. He called us over the intercom, 3 of us, to come to the office that morning and we went in there and he told us he was going to suspend us for 2 weeks. Now, Mr. Phillips would only suspend you for 3 days so 2 weeks was like, “Wait a minute!”. 0.38.08.9 CD: A lifetime. (both laughing) RS: Yeah, that's a lifetime even for guys that weren't that excited about school. But then, as the added �touch, he said, “And Reggie, I'm gonna call your father. He's gonna have to come over here”. I said, “Call my mother. Please!”. He called him but he didn't kill me when he got over there but that was – They really valued those jobs and those men worked and they – My father's thing was I'm gonna get enough rest at night so I can get up and start this routine the next day and I never heard him complain about it. He felt like that he was providing for his family and he was trying to – Obviously, he set a, he and my mother 'cause she works at a tremendous work ethic and the family was very important. And anything you did to distract from the family, that would really get you ostracized. There wasn't a whole lot of extra so everything had to be used and you had to act like you had some sense out here. So, let's see, they've got a question here, “Do you remember when your family got a telephone and refrigerator”? CD: Yes, I remember because I remember – See we lived in Radford. To our rear, about 100 yards, was New River and there was a little creek behind there leading to the swimming pool. So if the New River ever flooded, we lived at the end of the street next to the funeral home, and we would get flooded on two sides, the rear and the side. So we lived there and the ice plant was right across the railroad. The railroad track was in front of us about 50 yards. And across the railroad track was the ice plant. RS: I see. 0.39.58.6 CD: So it wasn't too difficult. If we missed the ice truck when they delivered ice, we could just walk across the railroad track and get ice. So I remember the ice box and you had to get it and you had to chop it up and everything and we were delighted when we got the refrigerator. You know what I mean? It was amazing. And the dairy products were delivered and I noticed an article in the paper where they're starting a new _____________ (??) (both talking) So, yes, I recall that and I remember one of my chores every morning, I would have to get up and start the fire so my mother could come in and cook breakfast. Sometimes at night, I would bank the fire, so that, I mean, put the paper and everything in so I'd have a short cut. 'Cause I was the first one up so that was one of my chores. RS: And when you got to school early, you had to start the fire in the stove. CD: Yeah, so you had a lot of chores in those days. RS: Exactly. A telephone – when you – Do you remember when you didn't have a phone at home? CD: Vaguely. Yes, but I do remember when we didn't. I remember, I even remember our old telephone number 2-0-0-6. But you know, party line, you know. RS: I was going to ask you because everybody had a party line because they were cheaper, right? CD: That's true. That's true. RS: Now this young lady wouldn't know what a party line is but you could be having a conversation on the phone and another party cuts in. CD: Yeah, sure. That was a common thing. RS: That was very common and it was cheaper than a private line. Everybody I knew had party lines. So you could be talking, Coach Day and I could be talking and you could pick up and hear our entire conversation. And even become a part of it if you wanted to. (laughing) I was so excited when we got a private line, I didn't know what to do. The question number 11 here is, “Did you and your family, and your friends I would assume, sit on the porch in the evenings in the summer”? CD: Air conditioning. RS: That was your air conditioning. CD: The front porch. Yeah, that's true. That was it. Sunday, Saturday and then you'd – That was where you got your air conditioning and it was a social area. You'd sit there and we could watch the trains go by. Way back then, when I was a kid, they had a passenger train and the number was 42 and it would come through Radford around 11 o'clock at night and you'd see all those people in the cars. They'd be traveling from one part going to New York or Washington and they'd wave. They'd see us little kids, you know, things like that, you know, and they'd be – You know its amazing and you could just check your watch... �RS: By that train. Let's see, we've talked about chores. You banked the fire. You started the fire in the morning. You cut ice for the ice box. Any other chores around your house or neighborhood that CD: When I was young, I used to go to downtown to the grocery store to pick up groceries for my mother. She was a housewife and my dad was working. So, I was the main one who, if she needed something, I'd RS: Walk to the store. CD: Walk to the store. And I remember a cute little experience I had. I was going to, it was about a ½ mile and we'd walk down the railroad tracks and they had coal trains and cinders. I got a cinder in my eye and I was in the store trying to get it out, you know. I walked in the store and a young lady, a young white nurse was in the store and she told me, she said, told me how to get it out, how to make tears. How to rotate, you know. She told me, “Blow your nose. Rotate your eye around counterclockwise and blow your nose, cycle 3 times, alternate”. And said it would create enough fluid liquid in your eye to wash the cinder out. I remember that always from when I was a child. RS: Oh, really. CD: I never knew her name, I would never recognize her. She told, she said, “That's how you can get little particles that get into your eye because” RS: Oh, good. CD: Its amazing. RS: I've never heard that before. CD: She told me that and it works and RS: It stuck with you. (both laughing) CD: And I was just a little boy. RS: Coach Day, question 13, “What were the family stories that were passed down in your family from generation to generation?” CD: Well, there were a lot of them. Of course, I had my mother that was a part of about 12 siblings. And they had their respective families and they would always come and visit. I had an uncle who worked around the families that had horses and fairgrounds where they would have show horses. He would always have his stories about the horses and which one was the most valuable horse, you know, the most talented horse. You know and everything like that. And then I had other uncles who worked for the railroad. They would travel down from Radford to Roanoke to work at the railroad yard and they had to leave 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning so they'd get down there on time. So, they would have stories relating to that. I had uncles and aunts who lived in West Virginia. So there was a dialogue. There was always something going on. RS: Interesting you would mention that because, and I mentioned about my father being on time to work and I probably drive my children crazy about being punctual but there was something that I know that I got mega-doses of, “You've always got to be on time, Reggie. You've always got to be on time”. Was that something that you heard a lot about? 0.46.20.4 CD: Yeah. I mean, it was a must because you know they would let you know, “We don't have to wait for you”. That was driven into me. RS: That's something that my children – they have a hard – I guess it shows how much society has changed. Because, again, as an African-American, every institution I was in, from High Street Baptist Church to school to getting to your class, to getting – getting everywhere – punctuality. CD: That's right. RS: And it prepares you, I mean it was a preparation for going out into the broader society. And it was almost like, you know, the broader society could never say you were late for anything. So, you were always there. And if there is anything – I love my children to death, but they seem like to me that they are the biggest procrastinators. I mean, its just like, you know, they get places but they don't – like I was here 20 minutes early this morning. Now, my son, if he was doing this interview, he would get �here 5 minutes to 9, right and he would be on time but it was almost, to use a term I've learned since I've gotten older, it was almost this compulsion. CD: Yes. 0.47.37.5 RS: But I think it reflected – black people, at least, it felt like it reflected on your character if you weren't on time or if you weren't even a little early for things. CD: That's true. It was such a stigma attached to it if you were late. And you didn't want to be a part of that. RS: That's right, exactly. They have a question on here, “Did your family have stories about memories or anything about the Civil War and slavery?”. CD: Of course, the concept and the world as related to slavery, that was always uncommon. You could be talking about – what effect this would have on it. Not – My dad never liked to bring in the negative because he was afraid it would cloud our thinking, you know. You'd have too much on your shoulders and you couldn't concentrate. I remember one time, we went to Cleveland to visit some of my wife's relatives and they were talking about this candidate who had won the presidency and some of them were not in favor, you know. They had another favorite candidate. So the word was, I said, “Regardless of who wins, he's your president. And you have to -” The key to you success is what you do not what he does. You know what I mean? And I remember when I was principal at Ruffner, a delivery man came in one day after an election, a presidential election, and he said, “Charles, did your candidate win?” I didn't say who. I said, “My president – my man won”. Because that's my philosophy. And that kind of was the philosophy of the family. Whoever got in, that's your man and no need worrying about it. (both laughing) He's in there! Just make the most of it. Don't sit up there and agonize for 4 or 5 years and worrying about something you have no control over. RS: I think that was the general attitude and I think we talked – I know in my family, we – there wasn't a – like you said, I think things were so dire that nobody wanted to talk about it, you know. Because it would just discourage you and so I found that blacks of your generation and previous generations had a lot of faith and a lot of confidence in this country and that things were going to improve for us. And, they really thought of themselves as Americans. And so a lot of the, almost what some would consider anti-American sentiment, complaining about things that happened in the past is a lot more common with my generation and on than it was with your generation. Because, I can't think of – when I think about this question, I can't think of anybody really having any real negative attitudes about slavery or discrimination. The whole emphasis was, “Well, its here and you've got to do something about it. Do the best you can do”. And people had a lot more hope and confidence in many ways in making progress than many of the young kids do today. You hear 'em talk and I know you've been around kids in school a lot more than I have but it is somewhat hard to believe the attitudes they have given all the opportunities CD: That's right. That's right. RS: That are available. I mean, you would think it was 1920 the way some of 'em talk sometimes and they can go anywhere and go to any school, just opportunities – society is more accepting. So, its really interesting. I think a lot of that does come from that – not using history as an experience but almost as a cop-out not to do. CD: I remember when I was in the Army traveling around to different countries on those Service Club tours and you would see the situations in some of those other countries, you have a fond appreciation for this country. You know what I mean? You really do. Now, another philosophy that I use, if I run into a person who has a hangup about me, my color, my weight and my wealth, I balance that out – I'm gonna run into about 90% of the people who do not have a problem. RS: That's right. (laughing) CD: So, I'm not gonna let that 1 or 2 distract me and put me on a detour. RS: Exactly. �CD: So I just chalk that up as par for the course. You know what I mean? RS: Well, I think that's the way to look at it. I really do. And that way, that one person doesn't upset you. CD: That's true. 0.52.38.3 RS: OK, well we have questions here, we've got about 5 minutes with Coach Day left. Do you have – We talked about Mrs. Day. We know you served in the military. I know you have 2 children, neither one served in the military, right? CD: No. RS: Let's see, community – When you moved to Roanoke in 1966, what was your general impression of Roanoke, the black community, the broader community, things like that? CD: I had a very favorable impression of 'em. I thought about the number of doctors, lawyers, professional people they had, you know, in Roanoke. It was a new experience for me because I had come from a small city in Radford. And then down here, you see all the black hospital and the number of doctors and lawyers and then it had a lot of good jobs and everything. It was a very positive experience. RS: OK, good. What about this library? Do you remember the first time you knew the Gainsboro library was here or did people talk about it when you got here? CD: Yes. I was – I used to come down to this area a lot because that was a focal point and even before I moved to Roanoke, we used to come down to the American Legion Auditorium when the top performers would come here and then I had some friends – 'cause when I went to high school at Christiansburg Institute, we used to play Addison in football. Then I had some friends here in Roanoke and we would come down and go dancing with them. We'd go to the train station. They had a train station, you could go there, you could be served the food you wanted and everything. So, I had good vibrations about Roanoke. 0.54.45.1 RS: There's a question on here, Coach Day, “Who were your role models when you were growing up and also when you got to Roanoke”? Who did you sort of look at as a role model? CD: Well, I've always liked people. I would see these – Don't think I'm materialistic, but these people that had all this wealth – As a little boy, it was something I always wanted. I haven't achieved it yet and I'm ready for the graveyard. (both laughing) But, I still have that as a hidden goal, a hidden agenda. And so I maybe mocked those people who were very successful and I respected those people who were trying to be successful. Like one gentleman told me, a very successful business man, he said, “When you go into business, you are talking to people who are successful. You are also talking to those who are not successful. You can learn from both.” And so, I guess, I was amazed at how the like the families that had all the drug stores, the president and CEOs of the big banks and the big firms, you know what I mean? The college presidents – I remember when I had a hidden agenda, I wanted to be a president of a small black college. That was one of my goals. I never achieved it but you know – I never achieved it, you know what I mean? – but that was a – I suppose if I had – but that was one of my -. RS: And the men who, most of those people were men, they CD: Inspired you. Yeah. RS: Yeah. Well, those are good role models. I mean, when you see people achieve in areas that you didn't know people were achieving in. CD: That's true. RS: I mean they can inspire you 'cause you think, “I wonder. How did that guy do that?”. CD: That's true. And I would ask 'em. Not trying to get personal. Not trying to get nosy. But you could learn something from 'em. That's one thing that makes American great, they would talk with you. They would pass some good helpful hints. I remember when I had surgery one time – a little side �line – I was reading this book – I carried it – You know like when you go in for surgery, you carry a lot of reading materials and I was reading this book about this agent, this Russian agent who had come to America. He was a double agent and one thing he said, “You learn from all – One thing about America, people will talk with you and they will tell you things, sometimes even personal”. And he said even the agents say they gave information on this factory or this thing. RS: Just give you the information. (both laughing) CD: And you learn a lot. And I remember when I was at Virginia Western as a counselor for a couple of years. I was teaching an orientation class and then a How-To-Study class and I did my research and I always told my kids, I said, you have 2 ears and 1 mouth and use them accordingly. (both laughing) RS: That's a good advantage. In closing, is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to share with us about your life, your experiences? CD: I was on the school board for 11 years and 9 months, a beautiful experience. I felt because I had taught for all those years and had been in education that I could make a contribution so I appreciate the opportunities that Roanoke City gave me to serve on the board. I enjoyed working with the kids and teachers and everything and their parents and that just sort-of added a little icing on the career. RS: Yeah. You found that experience very fulfilling? CD: Yes, it was. I learned quickly that when you're on a committee, you can't pull things through unless you have majority vote. You can influence things. Sometimes more than others. It was a challenge. But I enjoyed that. RS: Well, Charles Day, I've known you for the past 40 years and you have been a good influence in my life and I'm glad I was able to conduct this interview with you. CD: Well, it was my pleasure and like I said before, I remember your very sweet mother. She was really a nice lady and a beautiful lady. I remember – a little sideline – I was principal of French Elementary School and I had a teacher, Miss Dowell (??). And my mother came by the school one day to visit me and Miss Dowell told me, said, “Mr. Day, You and Albert have some beautiful mothers”. She was talking about herself. (both laughing) That's certainly how – what she was. She was very attractive. And your father was really nice, quiet, a very quiet gentleman. Tall, he was about 6'3” wasn't he? RS: Yeah, 6'4”. CD: I knew he was tall. RS: Actually, my son is big like my father. CD: He is? He played basketball, didn't he? RS: Yes sir, he played basketball and a lot of the men – My father went, lived in Salem so he was a big basketball star up at Carver (??) and he and Irving Canaday (??) were always competitors and they were also good friends but this was after my father had died and Malique (??) was about 14 or 15 years old and they had the court basketball camp over at Addison and Irving Canaday (??) walked in there one day and looked at me and looked at my son and he said, “If that's not Elmer Thomas' child”. And he does. Now, every time I look at Malique, he favors my father more and more every day. CD: Its amazing. Small world isn't it? You've done a quite a good job. I'm proud of you. RS: Well, thank you Coach Day, I appreciate that. Alright, thank you sir. CD: Pleasure seeing you. Thank you young lady. [Mr. Day Addressing Alicia Sell who was running the recording equipment.] � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2631/DayCharles.1.JPG 62f6a38c1559591c0dbffcc63a396840 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Charles Wesley Day Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Charles Wesely Day Interviewer: Dr. Reginald Shareef Date: 5 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:00:51 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Charles Wesley Day; Dr. Reginald Shareef; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DayCharles https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2630/Whitworth_Claudia_[compressed].mp3 359e745e987fb1f138a23cb3c5cd6836 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2630/WhitworthClaudia.pdf 806947b2205815a1ac3be2af1d8809e2 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Claudia Whitworth Interviewer: Dr. Reginal Shareef Transcriber: Andrew Sterling RS: Good afternoon Miss Whitworth. The first questions are a set of background questions and the first question is when and where were you born? CW: I was born in Fayetteville, West Virginia on November 7, 1927. RS: How long have you been – lived in Roanoke or been a citizen of Roanoke, Virginia. CW: I first came to Roanoke in 1945 to work with daddy after he had started the Tribune. Of course, I haven't been here consistently since then but that was the beginning. RS: Was that the first time you worked with your father at the Roanoke Tribune or had you come – He started the Tribune in 1939 right? CW: Yes, but he didn't - but the publication – when we say he started in '39, it didn't mean that it started rolling off the press because it took a couple of years to work and get all of the equipment together and everything to actually start on our work and that didn't actually come until '41 perhaps. RS: I see. So the paper's been published weekly CW: Regularly RS: Since 1941. CW: Since '41. He started it in '39 getting all of everything together. See, it takes a whole lot of equipment when you're printing it yourself. Now, you can start things and get somebody else to print it for you and you can go with that. In those days, it took a lot of getting things together to get ready to publish on a regular basis which we've done for the last sixty-some years. RS: What were some of the obstacles that your father and you faced in getting the Roanoke Tribune published initially? CW: Well, I understand others had tried and started with, and since, before and since the Tribune or other black publications but unless you plan it well, as he did, and he had worked on papers before coming here. But in those days, back in the '30s and '40s, you know, there were untold obstacles. Having to print it yourself, you've got to have the equipment. You've got to have the know-how. You've got to have the help, the supporting help. He managed to get all of that and mainly through people at the Roanoke Times, believe it or not. They were the ones that helped us most. They were not our – because of their cooperation with us, teaching us, helping us to get Linotype machines which was the process in those days, Ladbed (??) presses and all of this stuff over a period of time. And then teaching us how to operate it and this kind of thing was what helped us to survive. But the obstacles, I'm not familiar with them. Of course, they'd be financial obstacles and this kind of thing. But, there was a need for it and there was the desire for it. So, I guess finances would have been the primary obstacle which, once you gained the confidence and trust of people, they're willing to go along. 0.3.28.7 RS: Well, that's interesting what you said about the Roanoke Times. I mean, they were fellow journalists and so they were helpful. CW: It was individuals. It wasn't the corporation. RS: It was individuals there. CW: But individuals within the paper who helped us right up 'til we were moved over on Henry Street. There were people that worked at the Times in recent years. If I got in trouble over there, all I had to do was call and he would be right there within a matter of minutes to help me. So, they've been – Tommy Powers and different people that worked over there at the – Bill Slusher – and I like to even call these names 'cause they're people who remember. These people – They were union people and they used to put up at the Tribune down on Gillam Avenue, you know it was all glass – They would put up newspapers around there so they couldn't see these union people in there helping us get this Tribune out each week. �RS: Oh good. That's very interesting. CW: It is. People always want to tell you the problems they have and the bad stuff but we've had a lot of support. A lot of good people, black and white, especially the white ones. RS: Good, good. Miss Whitworth, when you got here, say from 1945 on to say 1960, how was the Tribune primarily distributed? CW: Well, we've always primarily been distributed through mail. RS: Oh, OK. CW: But, mostly through mail. All by mail subscriptions. But that mail process – we used to stack all up – we used the label and stack 'em all up and put 'em on the dock at the post office and they worked. Now, we have to do all of the post office's work. The more they charge us – I think they used to charge us $8 or $10 a week to get that paper and mail it out. And now, I tell you, its unbelievable. We have to pay about $1,200 a month just to mail a few papers. And we do all of the work. Any papers – Any 6 or more papers going to a certain zip, we have to wrap individually, label, do everything – sack 'em for the different distribution centers. When they leave the Tribune, they're ready for the Melrose Branch or this branch. We've got 'em sacked. We do all the post office work. Isn't that amazing? RS: It is amazing. And you pay more. (both laughing) CW: Astronomical, believe me. RS: An astronomical amount. CW: Astronomical amount and keep going up. We have to pay by the piece, by the pound, by the percentage of advertizing, by all of this stuff. Its unbelievable having been in that business this long and see the changes. RS: And not all the changes have been for the good. (both laughing) CW: Not really. RS: Were you an only child? CW: Oh no. RS: OK. Tell us about your brothers and/or sisters. CW: I just have one of each. RS: You have one of each. CW: Mm mm. RS: OK CW: Neither of them is here. Both left home early. I was the only one that stuck around. RS: Yes ma'am. CW: You'll always find one that will stay home and kind of take care of the home fires. RS: OK. And do you have any extended family still living in Roanoke? CW: None never lived in Roanoke. RS: OK. CW: I never had any family RS: Alright. When you were growing up or when you came to Roanoke, what type of house did you live in? Where did you live? CW: Well, back in those days, you just got a room with somebody. So daddy had a room over here on Rutheford Avenue and when I first came in '45, I stayed there also. And then I also got a room down here on – With Miss Bragons (??) - down on the short end of Gillam Avenue down there. C.E. Bragons, I think they have a lodge named for him now but they misspell it. They spell it with two “G”s and they always spell their name for the record. They spell their name with one G, Charles Bragons. And I lived with 'em when I came here. The sweetest people you ever want to know. They just had one son, Charles Jr. RS: And that was on the short end of Gillam? CW: The very last house down there we lived. RS: Now, in addition to working with your father, what other activities were you involved in? �CW: Oh, everything he was involved with. He was pastor at the time at – up in Christiansburg and he went there in 19 – We lived in Lynchburg, we were living in Lynchburg at the time that I was born. But, momma always went home and that's where Fayetteville came in. That was her home. But we were residents of Lynchburg at the time. And he had worked with printing down there also at the seminary down there at Lynchburg at the seminary. But, you were asking RS: Yes ma'am, about activities like social activities and I know CW: With daddy, you were asking where we lived here and daddy had been called from Lynchburg to pastor the First Memorial Baptist Church of Cambria. It wasn't Christiansburg then and it wasn't Shaefer Memorial. He changed it to that during his pastorate. And when he left there 14 years later, it was Shaefer Memorial Baptist Church. It was still in Cambria which had its own political subdivision just like Vinton and all of these places. But since then, I think its all incorporated into Christiansburg. RS: When you were here, was your father and you by extension, were you guys members of the NAACP or group activities like that? CW: I was a teenager then so I wasn't really into all of that stuff. All I did was help daddy. I went back and forth with him to the church because we had to commute. We stayed in Roanoke and we had to commute during the week for different services and I played for his choir and we were just together all the time and whatever he did, I was trying to back him up with it. (both laughing) RS: Under the heading of education, tell us about your school life and where did you attend school and that type thing. CW: OK, I did my first and second grade in Lynchburg where we were living and then when he took the church in Christiansburg, that was the first and second grade were my only public school experience. Because in Christiansburg, they didn't have public school for blacks. So, we went to Quaker schools and that was Hill School which was right on the church lot practically. They've now turned it into a center but that was where I went to elementary school from the third grade to the seventh grade. Quaker schools only have 7 elementary grades and 4 high school. So, there are only 11 grades in the Quaker schools. So I went there and graduated from Christiansburg Institute, also a Quaker school. So I graduated from Christiansburg Institute when I was 16 and went to Bluefield State College because of the shortness and then I had started in Lynchburg when I was 5 because I was born in November and school started in September but they let me start when I was 5 so that made me come out in 11 grades at age 16 and go into college at age 16. 0.11.51.8 RS: That's interesting. Miss Whitworth, I know, I don't know but I would assume a Quaker schools or Quaker influenced schgools there was, in addition to the academics subjects, a moral philosophy. CW: Absolutely. They were very similar to your public schools. You know, the curriculum and all of this. They just put more emphasis on education. And what made it so interesting is most of my teachers and a lot of the others, most all of 'em came out of Roanoke. So I always dreaded and always hated never have gone to school in Roanoke. They always seemed to be such a closeness of the people who went through Addison and this kind of thing and that was one of my biggest regrets that I never did get to go to school in Roanoke. But, having had all Roanoke teachers had pretty much the same effect because they really produced some top students. When you come out of Addison, you went somewhere. And when you come out of Christiansbug Institute, a lot of 'em went straight into teaching because we had – it was just like it said, an institute, it wasn't just a high school. We had dormatories for boarding students. There was an Agriculture Department, a Home-Ec building, all these separate buildings and they taught the secretarial stuff and all kinds of stuff. It was just like a university really. So, when you came out of there, you were ready to go into the classroom as a teacher and some did. Some did. Some went into teaching from there. But it was quite a different experience. But all of our teachers, as I was saying, Ruth Claytor, Roberta Claytor. We had Ruth do pre, we had Connie Johnson Hamler with - all of these people came out of Roanoke. I mean they were excellent teachers and they put out some products. Just like in this valley, they did it up there at Christiansburg Institute. �0.14.16.4 RS: Oh, see, I didn't realize that. I didn't know the people from here came up there to teach. CW: They were very young and most of them were out of Virginia State. 20 years old, 21, or something like that. They were very young. RS: So then at 16, you went to Bluefield State? CW: Mm mm. RS: Was that experience different for you? CW: It was, let's say brief. (Both laughing) Because – I hate to put this on tape but I didn't make it to Thanksgiving. They kicked me out before Thanksgiving. (Both laughing) I was a rebel. I've always been a rebel and I used to just run with the upper-classmen and initiating and doing things to the other freshmen. It was a lot of crazy things. (Both laughing) RS: That was an experience as well. CW: Yeah, but it – I really didn't want to be there. I had wanted to go to Hampton and I guess with finances or whatever, it just didn't seem like a college to me and I just – Having come from – my experience is a little different from most people my age. You see folks who they were the only ones that made it into college. See, I came from 5 sisters and all, and my mother and all of her sisters who – my mother graduated from Ohio State in 1922. And they were all teachers, you see. And the others from West Virginia State from Oberland - All of them were highly educated and when I went into school, we went in educated, you see, so it was a little different. Its not just like being a street kid and rebelling and getting in – When I went into - the French teacher – My mother used to teach French and English and when I went up there, the lady who was teaching me French was just butchering it. So its kind of hard. It made it difficult and I had to stop taking it at Christiansburg because that lady and I can't call her name because she came from Roanoke too. (laughing) When you come from a whole family of teachers like I did, you're going in these places at a little different level. So that was one of the reasons for my rebelliousness. 0.16.48.0 RS: So you left Bluefield State, where did life take you? CW: See I went up there in '44. It was in the – I graduated from Christiansburg in '44. Then I went to – Then I went that fall to Bluefield and then when I came out of there, before Thanksgiving, I went to work at the powder plant up in Dublin. I wasn't old enough but I didn't have any birth certificates or anything so I just went to work. I always did look older than I was. So, I guess it was in 1945 that the government people knocked on our door and said that they had reports that I wasn't of age and I said, “Well, you can't prove it”. And he says, “Well, its not up to me to prove it. Its up to you to prove you are.” (Both laughing) So, I hadn't thought of that. That was the end of my powder plant government career. (Both laughing) So then I came down here and started working with daddy and that was in the Summer of '45. 0.18.02.6 RS: Did you stay here? You mentioned earlier you didn't stay here continuously. CW: I stayed here for a while. Daddy wasn't the easiest person to work with even learning the Linotype stuff and I was trying to learn it too. People were trying to teach me but it was a little difficult so I left and went to – First to Dayton, Ohio, and well, actually, I got a geography book and to pick somewhere to go. I didn't know anybody. I was so sick of everybody I knew and I picked Dayton. Back in those days, 60 years ago, they had geography books. I don't know what you call 'em now. But it had little dots for little towns and big dots for big cities and so I picked a medium sized dot. I said if the dot's too small, I can't get a job. If its too big, I'm too country to get around. So, Dayton, Ohio – I picked Dayton, Ohio. I said I never heard anybody in my life going to Dayton, Ohio or coming from Dayton, Ohio. So I always remember, I had saved up my little life savings through the summer of $50 I think it was. And somebody came and tuned the piano that week and charged us $20. So I paid him. I said, “Well, when daddy comes, he'll give me my $20 back”. No he didn't. “I didn't tell you to �do it”. So now I had $30 and I walked down the hill to the train station to get my ticket to Dayton, Ohio, out of that $30 and that was my introduction to the world. (Both laughing) 0.19.55.4 RS: So was Dayton a good fit for you? CW: I didn't stay there – Well it was an amazing story because when I got – as I was leaving, my brother had called from - At the time, he was working for IBM in Poughkeepsie, New York – and so he just called and I told him I was leaving home and where I was heading. He said, “Oh, I was in the service with a guy from Dayton and he gave me his phone number”. So when I got there, I checked into the YWCA. Then they had rooms you could stay. I called this fella and so they came and got me and took me to their house for dinner. We were sitting out in the backyard and a car had drove through the alley there on the way and backed up and the lady got out and said, “Claudia Alexander”, and she was from Fayetteville, West Virginia. I hadn't seen that lady since we were little kids and she had married a teacher and they were living in Dayton and she recognized me. And she said – she went and got my clothes out of the Y and took me home with her and I stayed with her until I got a job. RS: God was looking out for you. CW: As always. Always. (both laughing) I wouldn't be here – all the crazy things I've done. I have kept Him busy. (both laughing) RS: Well, under this heading, the next heading is life and home and it says, you talked about you were with your father all the time and mainly he was a minister and he was trying to CW: Get the paper, right, mm mm. RS: And, so you inherited this entrepreneurial spirit from your father. How did you feel about that? CW: Well, my leaving home would be whenever we'd have a big falling out. Then I would go where I could learn more about the business because – So I left and went to – That was how I got – When I went to Dayton. I tried to get a job as a Linotype operator but you had to be union in those days and here I was just a teenager and a woman. They weren't hiring women in that kind of a profession. So, I wound up after not being able to find work in that profession. In New York, I had a sister there so I went up there where I got a job on the New York Age. RS: On the New York what now? CW: Age. The Amsterdam wasn't printed as a newspaper. The Amsterdam is more popular but its printed in Jersey. It wasn't printed in New York. It still isn't I don't think if it even exists, I don't know. But there was a paper called the New York Age. In fact – who is it that was here, Ida Wells used to work on it. Well, she worked in the news – you know in the office part. I never saw a newspaper office. I always worked in the dirty shops – the grease and graphite and hot lead and I didn't even come through the front door. (both laughing) I was always in that part of it. Learning how to do that composition part. In those days, it was pretty rough and heavy and this kind of stuff. There were no women in 0.23.39.5 RS: I was going to say, with the fact that you were a woman CW: It was hard and you had to be tough and that added to my toughness. Because being in the process, you only had – we called 'em magazines that you had to change to change fonts of type, you had to change for it and these were heavy metal things that you had to lift from the ground and put up on top. And I would have to ask for help with some of that and I used to hate to have to ask them to do anything for me. But, that was where I learned really how to operate on newspapers in Ohio. I did work in Cleveland. I went to Cleveland. I kept going different places for different reasons. I would get a job at the Cleveland Herald and in Columbus – what was the name of that one? - the one in Columbus – Ohio State Sentinel. That's what it was. And that was where I was getting my training. I'd come back 'cause I couldn't learn from daddy. He was, we just, I'd go somewhere else and learn and then I'd come back and try to help. RS: Was he receptive to the - ? �CW: No. (both laughing) It was always a battle. But I could stick it out. RS: So you were gaining experience CW: Absolutely. RS: In your family, were there family stories that were passed down through the generations? You talked about your mother and her sisters going – all being educated women. And you knew that – was it CW: You know, our family – that's what's so odd about these educated families. They're not close like the other families that have to kind of depend on each other to make it. And that was one reason I wasn't that attracted to education because they were very formal with each other. There wasn't a loving kind of stuff you see with little close, uneducated families and it just didn't turn me on. There was nothing about it I wanted to be like. So that was a part of my rebelliousness. I just said, “If this is education, I don't really need it”. And they would just tell us, “Now don't associate with these and don't do this and don't do that”. And I was always doing the opposite. I was always drawn to certain people and especially people and trying to tend to daddy's people in Christiansburg that he didn't have time for because he lived down here. So it was just totally different for me. So, no, we didn't have family – we were very formal. We sat around the breakfast table and talked very little and they lived in DC and different – you know the sisters and when we'd get together – I don't even remember seeing them kiss each other in a greeting or anything. Just formal, very formal. And there were two of 'em living in DC and they would, one would meet, visit the other on Sunday. You'd sit in the parlor and one would serve you sherbert or something just like a stranger. You just can't imagine, so it just really didn't grab me. (both laughing) 0.27.14.1 RS: Do you think that that was the way that middle class blacks at that time felt you should act as middle class? CW: I think so. I really think so. I just don't know where they got that from but it just didn't appeal to me. RS: Just very refined and culturated type of CW: And you had to dress a certain way and I couldn't chew gum or I couldn't do this. You know, that's what Miss Pullen said at the banquet, she wouldn't allow any of 'em to chew gum in her class and she took some to the 61st reunion, class of '61 reunion. RS: My sister's in that class. CW: “Well”, she said, “OK, I brought some packs of gum here today. Now you can chew”. (both laughing) RS: Finally. CW: But in those days, chewing gum was very degrading. So you couldn't do that. RS: I think a lot of that was to show that as a group, we could have some refinement or culture or that type thing CW: To be examples of what you can be. It, you know, if that's what you want to be but you needed to be put with some sort of affection or something which it wasn't. It was just totally the opposite. That refined – and you know I tried to maintain a certain degree of that, you know, in my rapport now to show you that you can mix the two. That it doesn't have to be either/or. RS: Well I think that's what happens. You know a lot of people find balance in that but – In fact, again, we used to use the term probably in a derogatory manner but we used to call them bourgeois/bourgeoisie you know from the French and that's really, when I was coming up, that was the impression that I got of certain people who were just so formal and almost so strict, you know, that they didn't even seem natural. CW: Now, if you were born into the affluence, the black affluence, and there were a few families like in Roanoke, the Slater families, you were born into that. Its just a little different but when you come into it from the fields, you know, where you worked for the families, you see, its a different kind of �mentality there. 0.29.59.3 RS: And so then, during your travels, this brings us up to about what 19- when you were in New York working with the Age CW: That was during the 40s and 50s, Cleveland, New York, Columbus, all that was during the 40s and 50s. RS: You would come back to Roanoke periodically to work with your father. CW: Yes. I was never gone more than a year or two at a time and I came straight back to the Tribune to try to put that whatever it was that I had learned into that. RS: And was the paper growing at this time? CW: It has always been slow growth and still is. In fact, we - growth – bigness has not always been one of our goals. I remember at one of the NNPA conferences, I said, “Bigger isn't always better”. And then they had the Pittsburgh Courier and the Afro-Americans and the – They had all of these big newspapers and I said its going to be hard on these big papers when this tide starts turning and now most of them are gone. Because when you're small, you can ride different – but when you're big, you're dependent on a whole lot of help, a whole lot of everything to keep you out there and the Tribune is still around. When all of these expenses and things they throw at you. Its hard to handle if you're big. So we've always kind of deliberately stayed small enough to handle what I believe in and what I don't have to – If one of your biggest supporters advertizes and somebody comes out with something wrong, you can't bite the hand that's feeding you. So, I just try to stay small enough. RS: And independent. CW: And independent enough. So far its worked. RS: Its worked. Its worked well. (both laughing) Let's see, did you or your spouse or any of your children serve in the military. CW: Yeah, daddy was in World War I and served in – what was it? - he was in the 8-0-2nd Pioneer Infantry in France and all around. And then my brother was trying to volunteer - this was during the draft days, you know back then. He wanted to go into the Navy so he tried to volunteer but we didn't have any birth certificates having been born out there in Fayetteville. You know it was a little town in West Virginia. They didn't have birth certificates for black folks. So by the time he got his birth certificate, and it wasn't his right age. He had put his age up so that he could get away from home. Like I said, I was the only one that stayed there. It wasn't a pleasant setting. So, everybody just kind of jumped ship as soon as they could get out of there. He wanted to – by the time we got all his false credentials, they said he was too close to his 18th birthday to volunteer. He was going to have to be drafted. So they drafted him and put him in the Army. They'd ask you what you want and then they'd give you the opposite. (both laughing) But they did put him in the Air Force. That's all my father and brother. There was nobody left but my sister, mother and me and none of us ever served. 0.33.49.1 RS: Do you remember particular businesses or shops around here that you utilized? CW: Oh my, do I ever. There were plenty of them all around. The cleaners, your tailor shops, in fact, you had to be 'cause we couldn't utilize anybody else. And that's what made the yard so special. In fact, I was writing about it in this week's paper. I brought one in to make sure you read – after the Henry Street Festival. The first years of it, I didn't even attend because I was too crushed with what had happened with Henry Street and the way it happened and everything but then the people involved with it over the years and after it got moved to Elmwood Park, we started kind of getting involved. And each year, once we started, we never have stopped. And sitting there, looking at it, I expressed it in today's editorial. Everything then, because of the days of segregation, were mostly on the yard. Your dentists, your doctors, your hotels, your theaters, even your churches, your everything, if it wasn't on the yard it was in the vicinity. You know, Gainsboro and your grocery stores, your tailor shops, everything was there so that was all we knew was patronizing our own thing. We could go downtown �and buy clothes in some places. In some places you couldn't try 'em on but you could buy 'em. Different things like that. But we had our own everything of necessity. 0.35.38.9 RS: Well do you think as an entrepreneur, you hear this all the time at business schools, the need for the black, for there to be an entrepreneurial class in the black community. Now we once had that but obviously things changed with integration and being able to go everywhere. But, what factors do you think hinder an entrepreneurial class from developing in 2006? CW: Well, it goes all the way back to the 40s and 50s when in the days of desegregation. So I don't know if you watched any of that “Eye On The Prize” that's going on now. The whole revolutionary process is such a distasteful one you know. Had desegregation been done through incentive instead of forced, it would, it probably, I don't even think it would've taken longer because if they had offered incentives to people who did this – They thought, it seemed like it would take forever but I really think it would have happened quicker because – but it happened the other way around. Not only, I just know about Virginia and I'm sure because I was right through the midst of that era coming into the early 50s and this kind of thing but in Virginia when you were forced – forced integration you see – and I say integration instead of desegregation because desegregation, that's desegregating your black schools, your white schools and mixing it up proportionately. We were all integrated into white schools, closed down black schools, displaced black teachers, principals, all of this kind of stuff. We were forced into situations where we were not wanted by the teachers. We were not wanted by the parents and the students just reacted to that. You see what I'm sayin'. And through that – I kind of put it by saying, summarizing it by saying, “If you've got somebody holding all the cards forced to deal in somebody that doesn't even know the game, how many winning hands you gonna deal 'em”. This is what happened. The race desegregation happened. They made 'em do it. They were determined its not gonna work and it hasn't. And look at what – it just allowed us to come in where we weren't wanted and so now that mentality is still there. We never go rid of that. Frank Totive (??), when he was here, and we worked closely with him – A lot of people fussed about how much he made – That man, I don't know when he slept. He was up around the clock. He could call – If he meets you, he'll call you a name if he sees you tomorrow. He knew people. He loved people. He spent his whole time desegregating these schools through incentives he called it. He put the first magnate schools, all of 'em in black schools. If you want these schools you're gonna have to come over here. And he spent his whole time putting Roanoke on the map in magnate schools which they are getting rid of all of them now. And he said, “OK, I succeeded in doing that but I'll admit, I never got off the ground with teacher attitudes”. He couldn't deal with that. He brought people in here from Florida with conferences to try to work with attitudes and this person I knew, I didn't know who he was when he brought him but he was on the Board with me at Norfolk State and he was Cecil Cod and he had been hired in Florida to deal with the same thing with the population that wasn't black population. It was different. 0.40.20.5 RS: HispanicCW: They were being integrated into public schools. The same thing they didn't want. So, working with teacher's attitudes and this kind of thing, it was a stonewall and that's where we are today because all of the schools that were integrated or desegregated whichever you want to call it, have resegregated. I walk to work from down Melrose Avenue past Forest Park, that was all white. And they forced us into that. Now its all black. And all the teachers are white. Its not happening just in Roanoke. I mean they're talking about everything else but they're not dealing with the real problems. And when you're forcing kids out into the street, and that's what it is now, you're making it oh so uncomfortable. They're not learning. You're not trying to teach 'em. That's not the point. You're trying to prove a point here that they're ineducable. RS: So the magnate school concept where you got an incentive – If I'm interested in a particular subject and I'm a black parent and she's got a white daughter and she's interested in the same subject, �there's an incentive to go to that school. CW: The dance school, the aerospace, nothing there. See it was connected with BPI and up there in Flemming, all of this was connected. I worked through these programs. Let all of them disintegrate, never tried to keep it going. The groundwork was there to really do things but it wasn't wanted. RS: And so when you force people, you're going to get this resistance. CW: You're going to get it. They're gonna do it if they have to do it. And on top of that, the, you see, you couldn't get any assistance if you peacefully integrated schools. No assistance whatsoever. You're on your own. If you could start a riot, you'd get riot funds. Any amount of riot funds. Now what kind of picture is this? RS: They created dis-incentives. CW: That's right. RS: I mean this is what economists talk about all the time. You have to have your incentives lined up or whatever your strategic goal is. So, if you try to do something peacefully and you don't get any reward, but if you start a riot or if you start trouble then you'll get the reward. CW: That's what I'm saying. RS: Its the incentives that create the problem. CW: That's right. And I can go into some proofs of that right here in this city. And then I was listening on “All Things Considered” or “Fresh Air”, one of these talk programs, and someone who worked with the state at that time in Richmond was saying, “I never even thought of that. Not only did you not get money from the state to peacefully do it, they were threatened to get funds withdrawn” he said. If you do it, we're gonna cut your funds off. So, all of this behind the scenes. So you see what we were dealing with then and we're dealing with the same mentality now. RS: You make a good point. Again, I like your analogy about the magnate schools because then people literally have freedom of choice based on their interest so there is an incentive to go. CW: To go and RS: You don't come with all the attitude that somebody has forced you or pushed you to go somewhere that you don't want to go. I actually hate to see Roanoke City abandon the magnate school concept and I know that Toter had put Roanoke City Schools on the map with that. CW: No other school in the country had an aerospace school like he had here and had it in – they made sure that died a natural death. You see what I'm talking about? Instead of taking advantage of that and putting Roanoke on the map with it. 0.44.20.7 RS: So we're going to have these antagonists CW: Right! RS: Because of this almost coercion to put people together. Well that's interesting. I never thought about it CW: A lot of people don't think about it and I've been out there in the middle of this stuff and I know. I'm not a bench-sitter. I've been out there in it all the way. RS: Now Miss Whitworth, I think it was in 2004, you were Roanoke's Citizen of the Year and I wrote that column. (both laughing) CW: I don't know what happened there. Whether it was a pacifier or what. RS: I wrote that column and one of the things that I talked about was always your calm demeanor, your spirituality and I did a very imperfect evolution of you as a child of a minister and going to Quaker schools and then being involved in the Bahai Faith so, could you fill in my gaps there? How did you end up in the Bahai Faith? Tell us something about the Bahai Faith . CW: Well I certainly wasn't looking for it. It is very unusual that – It was on Henry Street and there's no community here at any time. I came through street teaching is what they call it. Because the Bahai Faith came into this country on this high elite. Because it started in Iran but the persecutions and all of the history of it was so – well, I don't know how I'm trying to condense it into just a little something but �during the Baha'u'llah, the founder of the faith exiled and persecution and imprisonment over a period of 40 years. It was in 1910 after the Turkish Revolution that they were forced to release all of the political prisoners and that's when – but over that period of time, the faith had drawn people from universities and all, Oxford and everything – to recognize who this person was and so when it came into this country, it came through these universities. In fact, the early Bahai's, when we came in 35 years ago, you even had to take a written exam in order to come into the faith at that time until the grandson of the manifestation said, “No, no, no, this is for everybody” and he says, “You're gonna have to take this to all of the people”. So that instituted what they call street teaching and they were going through plantations and this place, bringing the faith to ordinary people. That's how I, that's where I'm coming from. They were coming through Henry Street street teaching and it was a little gray-haired white lady from South Carolina and her husband who was from Vinton and a Persian lady, those three people. And she walked into the Tribune and said have you every heard of Baha'u'llah. I said, “No, and I don't want to hear about him”, just like that. And she said, “Don't you believe in love and justice?”. And I said, “Doesn't everybody?”. I told you I was a rebel. (both laughing) She just kept trying to talk to me and I was just so rude and I was looking at how she was taking me and that, to begin with, kind of softened me. And she held up a little pamphlet that had a big sun on it that had God in it and it had rays with Moses, Muhammad, all of the former manifestations and it had Baha'u'llah at the bottom, the promised one of all ages. And the way that – it kind of took the sting out of me because I said, “That's possible”. Its what they call progressive. Now there's only one God that speaks to man periodically according to mankind's maturity and need. And I said, “That makes sense”, you know. And this age seemed to be a different age which required a different manifestation. So then I stopped being mean (chuckling) and started listening to her and she gave me a little pamphlet which I was going to throw in the trash until I read it. It was the Bahai Faith was a new independent universal religion who's aim is to revitalize mankind spiritually, to break down the barriers between people and to lay the foundation of a unified world society based on two principles, justice and love. I can't fight that. So I started investigating and the more I investigated, its the most astounding thing I've ever known in my life. Its bringing all the people across – all the sheep in to one shepherd, into one fold, one shepherd. Its always been prophesied but here is the blueprint. So that's why I started following the blueprint and it is working, believe me. It is working. Thank you for asking. (laughing) 0.50.01.8 RS: Oh sure. Because I think, not a lot is known about the Bahai's. CW: No. Do you know why? Because the whole world is run by religion and politics, right? And there is no money in the – The Bahai Faith is a religious order and a political. So that's why the Ayatollah said “Yes” when – what was her name? - the one who interviewed that doesn't speak well, what's her name, has the lisp talk, the famous lady, you know, what's the famous interviewer? She's old now. RS: Barbara Walters? CW: Barbara Walters! That's the one. She was interviewing the Ayatollah and she asked him about putting the Bahai's to death because they were putting them to death by the thousands. And he said, “Yes, we are putting them to death because they are not a religion. They are heretical.” Well I said, You're not all wrong. We're political and religious”. But there's no money in either. And that's why nobody is – If you are elected to office, there's no individual who has any title or any power anywhere in the faith after Baha'u'llah died. But its so designed that everything is done locally on elected bodies of 9 individuals, nationally elected bodies of 9 and Universal House of Justice on the side of Mount Carmel, elected bodies of 9 individuals. These people consult and agree on whatever goes out through the whole – and everybody – and its all through love. Everything they send you is so loving. Its something I've never experienced. And its done the whole world the same in every continent. And we don't have paid, nobody's paid. If you're elected on the local level, the national level, or even in Israel, you're not paid to go there. You're gonna have to pay your way there. Or if you need assistance, you �can get it but only if you need it. Who is gonna promote something – Look at all the money in campaigning for election. Now you take all of that out. Who's gonna promote a religion that's coming in saying all this is not needed? We're a threat to everybody. And its gonna – and its working. I wish I had invited – We had a conference at the, used to be Holiday Inn, Quality Inn up there on the hill. I wish you could have seen that. People of all nationalities, races, just in love. We greet each other in love. We don't even understand some languages but that love is a universal language and we have a plan that comes from national, a blueprint that we all have to follow and its coming together so unbelievably, unbelievably – worldwide. And look at the time is now when the meek shall inherit the earth. You know it sounds like, “What does that mean?”. Well when you see how well-prepared when that thing comes down and I had no idea it was coming down as fast as it is, then you'll understand 'em. And that's why it hurts so bad about 'em – you know our philosophy is not to dwell on people's faults. They say if they have 10 bad faults and one good one, dwell on the good one. And let me – There's some things in there that just shocked us like it is better to be killed than to kill. Can you imagine such a state? Some of 'em so shocking that we just don't sign on the dotted line and we're there. It takes training in love and just like they train you in hate. They've got to train you to go out here and kill innocent people. You know that. You gotta be well trained to go out there and kill folks you don't know. And I found out when I went to Sac Air Force Command with Lynn Holton. They took us through this 6 weeks basic training and how you have to train these recruits to go over there and hate and kill people they don't know. You have to train people in love. 0.54.29.7 RS: And so you have to train people to love. CW: Its training. Its basic training, hard training. And that's what these soldiers are into. RS: And so when in that column I wrote about you, I talked about Turtle Tracks so CW: Mm mm. RS: Sometimes, you've mentioned your faith there, but often-times you don't but there is almost this philosophy of love. CW: There is. RS: Is that what you're trying to do? CW: Yes. And you know what? I try not to write when I'm down or anything like that. I've got to because the faith is, it brings you out and you're looking the wrong way if you're down. Your face is facing the wrong – Its a reflection – you look into that sun, you're gonna reflect brilliance and light and that's what I'm trying to reflect, the light, the brilliance, the warmth, the hope which is not in recording what's going on in the world. RS: That'll depress you. CW: Its depressing everybody. Its making people suicidal and everything. You know, to get people in that kind of mentality and where the “haves” just keep wanting more and more and you're so helpless and when you feel helpless you do all kind of crazy things. So we got to just turn people any kind of little way without flooding 'em with it. Just suggest, “Please, just look, there is hope. But not the way you're looking”. RS: That's what I always find in Turtle Tracks. I really look – I read Turtle Tracks. I understand – I have some understanding of the Bahai Faith and I know something about you so I try to get this message that you're promoting. CW: That's what it is and you'd be surprised at how many people are really getting it. When I first joined this faith and this was in 1972 and there were no Bahais here and I didn't know anything about it and there was a pioneer here back in the 50s that she had books in this library 'cause it connects her to this library – one of the ladies died and she had a book in her possession when they were getting through it and it was a book donated to Miss Mitchell here at this library, one of the Bahai books you know and this lady had it in her possession. There's so many things that tie this faith into this valley. Its awesome. Its really, really – because the Guardian who was the last member of the holy family to �institute the administrative order. Before that, it was all religious, spiritual, in Iran and this kind of thing. When it came into this country, the administrative order was added to it which was very difficult because the Iranians don't believe in administration kind of thing. And the Americans don't believe much in spirituality. But they said its easier for an administrative person to seek spirituality than for a spiritual person to seek administration. So its kind of a – But the tie in to this religion, to this valley, its just awesome because the Guardian Himself wrote to this lady, Maude Taylor, who was in the Roanoke Valley and she said I've been here for years trying to spread the faith and teach and I have not gotten any response whatsoever. Its just – I'm so disappointed. I don't have – And he wrote back and he said to her and I paraphrase that, “The work you have done there, you are not even conscious of it, you know, the fact that you don't see it. You're just planting seeds that someday”. But he says, “Once Roanoke” and he called Roanoke by name and he'd never been to this country. “Roanoke is well established. It will affect the whole Southeast”. Then when I came in '73, the first thing I wanted to do was get rid of this paper so I could go teach this faith. I said, “Wait a minute. I've got a big congregation here than any church in the valley 'cause they got hundreds, I've got thousands of people”. But I was afraid to do it and I didn't mention the faith at all in this bible belt. What changed it was I had a Bahai lady from Florida who had a column called “New Reality” in which she just talked about ordinary things from taking children to school, this happening, that happening, whatever she started it off with, it would appeal to anybody. She'd bring 'em out through the Bahai faith through some principle that would address whatever it was. Doing that – then she got married and apparently to a non-Bahai, I don't know – but anyway, the column that she wrote in, she said she was gonna have to stop the column. After that, I got calls, I got even from ministers, “What happened to “New Reality”? They missed that column. So I said, Do I dare mention it in my editorials?” So I started just a little bit. But I try to do more quoting the actual writings because they speak for themselves rather than me taking it out of context and doing something to it. 1.00.16.7 RS: Now what year was this that you first started mentioning it -? CW: In the editorials? I'm really not sure because it hasn't been that long. Well, yes it has. I go back and look at some of them. I mentioned it periodically but not consistently as I do now because the need seems so much greater now for you to investigate. And now, over the web, its so much easier to investigate than for you to come to a meeting that I would have. And I knew I wasn't able to compete with these pulpits and them and – But, now with the web, there's just so much love and stuff, beauty in everything out there that would draw people and its an organized love. That's the only thing in it. Because hate – love has always been stronger but its not organized and that's what I think I had in it a week or so ago. Hate is so organized and it looks like its stronger. Because love is just like fireflies. You know you're flickering here and there but there's not enough light on, staying on long enough for you to see. But that hate, you can organize that and that's why I think that its intentional, all of these programs they show you to make you keep hating each other, the dogs, everything about the early days of integration. They keep pushing that to you, pushing that. They don't tell you the good stories of the people that did – the John Browns that spent his life you know for black and going to the galas, he's – black people don't even talk about him. You see what I'm saying? 1.02.07.7 RS: We talk about the hate CW: You talk about the dogs and this kind of thing. You can sell that hate so easy. And we've got to get this love sold. The people are going to turn eventually out of desperation when there's nowhere else to go. But those of us, we are told, who will turn now of your own volition, the prize is unbelievable and I know what they mean just everyday. The prize is that you recognizing that which you wouldn't recognize if you weren't a part of it. RS: As the editor of the Roanoke Tribune, do you see the Tribune serving a bigger mission? CW: That's right. Not volume or this kind of thing but spreading this love that just getting you hooked �into some vein so that you recognize it when you see it again. RS: Well, Ms. Whitworth, we're at the end of our hour, let me ask you this final question. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would like to share with us? CW: Not really because the main thing I wanted to talk about was this school system because that really bothers me so much. Because the older people are just products of the youth you see. And if we don't – we can't do but so much. Its like bringing people into the Bahai Faith. All emphasis now is placed on children and youth. We've been battling each other in this faith coming in. Just stop. Go to the children. Cure hearts. Bring these children before – See I've been in it thirty-some years. If I had brought children in there, they'd be so rich into this instead of trying to work with these adults which are too old and they're not going to change but so much. So now if you can instill this love and respect and humility, that humility. There's nothing in society that makes you want to be humble. It makes you look like a wimp or this and all of this stuff. It takes the strongest amount of pride to show humility. And when I am in the presence of it, I just melt. There are some - Especially males, females, anything and there are some giants that – Doug Covington was one of them – In their presence. Its nothing you can teach. Its something that's a heart to heart community. When you're in the presence of 'em, you know, “This is a humble person”. And this is a person who dares to be different and you're going to be persecuted. You're going to be - He and you know what he went through up there. RS: He certainly did. You're right. They miss him now that he's gone. CW: Oh. RS: I mean the students, the administrators, everybody misses him. CW: This humility. And this is – Everytime I recite this prayer to people, (papers shuffling) they want me to call, please come and the Bahai's said, “There are other Bahai prayers other than that”. And I said, “This is the one that reaches people. This is the one that says, 'please come back and tell me this again'”. We're at the end of that. RS: Yes ma'am. CW: I thought you'd be here all day with me. RS: That's what we wanted. I told Carla (??) that I know you have great strength in your faith and I wanted to talk to you about that for this recording and so that listeners can see how your faith influences your life, how you run your business and everything. CW: Absolutely. RS: We wanted to talk to you about that. CW: And you know, it especially appeals to me and I think you are born to be whatever you are and although you don't recognize it and this is why I think my life, the way my life has been has prepared me for this because there is – I've always been the, what do you call it, the black sheep of my family. I told you about all the educated ones and all. Even my sons, they don't want to listen. They come in to work on the paper, they don't want to hear anything about it. I've been doing this 60 years. I'll learn, I'll find it out, I'll figure it out. You know they don't want you to tell them anything. I've had to learn humility for the first 60 years I've been fighting it, trying to demand respect. And all of a sudden, you know, I'm learning, “Uh uh, that's not the way to do it. Stop fighting this thing”. And this humility, learning that humility is – and this prayer has done more to de-ego. And it is a kind of an ego. The fact that its not wanting to be over somebody. That wounded ego is worse. Because you don't recognize it as such. So I think I have done more damage with that wounded ego all my life trying to defend myself, prove myself. I'm worth being your daughter, I'm worth this, I'm worth that. And it has just turned everybody off. This prayer when I was inducted into the Hall of Fame in Richmond, what was it, '99 or something and that was the first woman from this area, not black, white or anything. And I had people calling me saying, “How in the world did you get to do that?” I said, “Why ask me, I wasn't on the selection committee. I wasn't a judge. I don't even know who proposed me or whatever. But anyway, Don Beyer. RS: Oh yes. �CW: Don Beyer was the Lieutenant Governor and I was on the Board at Norfolk State down there. Don't ask me how I got on a Board of Visitors at Norfolk State and got kicked out of Bluefield State College before Thanksgiving, I don't know. (both laughing) Cause I said, “Do you know you're asking?”. He said, “I know”. I told him if you knew who my _______ (??) and you still want me on this board, I'll do it. They said, “We want you up here”. I said, “OK, as long as you know what you're doing. I don't want to be sitting up here under false pretenses”. But anyway, they were so political on that board and I told Harrison Russett and at the end it just got worse and worse and he had the whole board full of Democrats and he'd put on these new ones that just – the whole meetings were politics and I just said its too much and they were going to give Mary Sue Terry some distinguished award, Norfolk State's highest award and I said, “Your timings off”. She was running for governor. And she had run around Don Beyer who was Lieutenant Governor who was gonna run. She jumps out and runs around him and everybody starts brown-nosing her and, excuse the expression, and jumping on her bandwagon. I said, “You're making a big mistake”. And he said, “But she's done this for this school”. I said, “I don't care what she's done. Your timing is off”. If you want to honor her, wait 'til after the election and honor her. Don't do it now when she's running for office. Well, whatever. And Don Beyer took it so graciously. He is such a precious person. I said I don't know what you doing in politics anyhow 'cause he doesn't even belong in it, he's such a precious person. So she lost! Everybody knows she lost to Allen. Alright. Nobody ever thought that was going to happen. They thought she was – why didn't he clean the house on that board. See, in Richmond, he cleaned house. He said, “I even told 'em you were a Republican”. I said, “No you didn't”. (both laughing) We're going to get kicked out of the Bahai Faith. We can't be Democrats and Republicans. You can't be anything that divides mankind. Now we can vote but we cannot join anything that divides people. We can't just preach one thing and do something else. And nothing divides people more than politics. Anyway, so there was Don Beyer running for – I'm bringing this to a point. I said I'm going back so far. Don Beyer was running for Lieutenant Governor and the whole Republican slate won except Lieutenant Governor, Don Beyer, one Democrat won Lieutenant Governor. And when - that was before this, that was after this whatever it was, the Hall of Fame thing. And I had, at the end of it, all of the people – there was a nun there – Don Beyer's grandmother was inducted at the same time so he was at the podium with me and all of them were telling how they got there and who contributed to what but there was no mention of God in the whole, even from the nun. So when I got up there, I just said, “The eternal flame of many a kindred soul lit my pathway to this podium but I won't call names because its too many. I'll just leave you with this prayer that did more than anything to get me here”. And I recited this prayer verbatim. When I got through with this prayer, there wasn't a dry eye in the place. The whole place was in tears because its humility, the whole thing. I want you to take a copy of it. I did this to a church 'cause I did it last year at some program and they said, “Please come back and do it again and bring copies”. So I fixed these copies for this. And I stood up there and said this prayer and the whole place went down. And so Don Beyer was calling my office every day, “Please give me the prayer, please”. And I didn't even have it on paper because when I saw it, somebody had it on a little piece of paper and I memorized it. So I had to put it on paper and then I got it to him. Well, after that, every time I would see him in a meeting, he'd start talking about the Bahai Faith and this poem and that he used it and this was during that time because when he won the Lieutenant Governor, the only Democrat on the whole ticket, his acceptance speech was this poem. RS: Oh really? 1.13.15.0 CW: When I'm fit to go. With patience and gratitude. I've been to the task of the hour. He quoted that poem and every time I'd see him, he'd talk about this poem and the house of worship and he had seen the shrine on the side of Mount Carmel and he'd spend half his time talking about the Bahai Faith. And so he said he carried it on his dashboard all the time. So I saw him years later. I said, “Are you still carrying the poem on the dashboard”. He said, “No, got it on me.” He reached in his pocket and �pulled it out. So I know this thing has power. That man – the only Democrat on the slate that won and there he was. And people don't even remember that. It was so quiet and so peaceful because he was a good Lieutenant Governor to a Republican Governor. They didn't acknowledge his existence but he was. So this faith has so many – And one of the prayers when I got to that part, it tells us to be as dust, dirt under the feet of my loved ones. We've got to learn how to – and I said, “be dirt under the feet – Woah!- That's taking it down there”. And then there's the point that says, “What is dirt? What is Earth? Everything on Earth came from it. Everything on Earth is coming back to it and everything on Earth is totally dependent upon it in between”. So its the most important thing on Earth and we consider it the lowest form of matter. You're cheap as dirt. Your something as dirt. Isn't that something? So it totally turns your perspective around. RS: That's what spirituality will do. CW: It is. 1.15.03.2 RS: It will make you see what you ordinarily won't see. CW: What nobody else sees and what you cannot be perturbed because they don't see. You've got to keep your eyes where that strength is coming from, the hills RS: I think when you do that, I mean, that will allow you to be humble. CW: And then just in the few years, look at how many people – now to be a doctor, you had to go through some stuff to do that, didn't you? RS: I certainly did. CW: Anybody that had that title. Now, they got people who ain't got GEDs passing out Doctorates. I don't know how its happening and ain't nobody saying anything. But look at how fast this world – everybody is trying to get a title and we don't have titles. We can't have titles. This is getting you totally turned the wrong way, trying to impress man who ain't gonna do anything for you if they could. And the world is just so far gone now. People, doctors who can't say a straight sentence, can't pronounce their names, but they're doctors. RS: Well, that's what it is. I mean, we're a society that evaluates you. CW: Caught up in that ego. RS: All that title and a lot of material things. There is no spirituality in our society. CW: Got plenty of churches, plenty of religion, no spirituality. You know what? I should've warned you I'd be here all day. (both laughing) But, American Indian, they asked me to sponsor one of these programs on Public Television and I did it. But the whole series – a Native Indian at the end of it was worth the whole series and he said, “Religion is what you get when you're scared to go to hell. Spirituality is what you get when you've been there”. RS: There's a lot of truth in there. CW: Now that's saying something. No who's been through more hell than a Native Indian. You know. Coming from him – when he said that, that put that whole program in perspective. All this religion everywhere, ain't none of 'em got the spirituality. Spirituality is what you get when you've been in hell. RS: Well that's true. CW: You'll come out spiritual, I tell you. When I try to get there without having to go through that. Except you don't have to go there. You can – humility can come without humiliation. Once they get that humiliation then comes the humility, you know. Look at these people in congress now. All of 'em that go to jail and they get humility. See, that ain't no humility, that's humiliation. There's a difference. There's a big difference. When you voluntarily give up that pride and stuff and come on down, that's awesome. That's humility and that's spirituality. RS: Well Miss Whitworth, we thank you so much and I'm gonna keep this prayer and its beautiful. CW: Learn to recite it. I don't care what religion or no religion, just read that thing. I'm telling you, 'cause I've been wrestling and trying to love people - and see, I didn't come up in love remember. It wasn't in my family, it wasn't in my mother's family. It was just full of rigidity and then in something �else, it was something else. But it wasn't no love. I didn't come up in it and now you tell me I gotta love everybody and I ain't never loved anybody. RS: Well also when you were talking about you were a woman, you were African American, see you've had CW: All of these tests. RS: You've had a lot to overcome. CW: And now I understand why. All of the things when I first came into this faith was, it said, you have to free - purify yourself was the word of all hate and love. Purify yourself of love?! And I found out well, I'm already there. Ain't got nothing to do but turn around. He freed me of the love. I tried so hard to love boyfriends and all these things and I thought, “I'm some weirdo. This ain't working. I don't care if they come or go”. (both laughing) I had three husbands. I didn't know love. Its just different reasons for each one of 'em but love – what's love got to do with it. (both laughing) RS: Well I think you have to go through all of that. CW: You do! RS: To really realize CW: And now when I come into a religion that says you've got to purify yourself of love which is the hardest thing. You can possibly purify yourself of hate if you kind of understand your motives and that you can work on but purify yourself of love? When you've got loving parents, loving children, how do you purify yourself of that? I didn't have it. So you see, I have been brought up a special way for a special reason. RS: And you're a special lady. CW: (laughing) Well, no, I ain't there yet but I'm struggling. And this prayer just touched me because it said, “Make me a hollow reed from which the pith of self hath been blown that I may become a clear channel through which Thy love can flow” and that made sense to me. And since I started getting that out, God has loved so many people through me that I wouldn't have been nowhere near under any circumstance and here He is loving these people through me. You know? Its a whole new world, believe me it is. Thank y'all for putting up with me. RS: Yes ma'am. (both lauging) Thank you Miss Whitworth. Thank you. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2630/WhitworthClaudia.1.JPG 5a6977b93ef104a3f27b063cb7f33130 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Claudia Whitworth Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Claudia Whitworth Interviewer: Dr. Reginald Shareef Date: 5 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:20:51 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Claudia Whitworth; Dr. Reginald Shareef; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhitworthClaudia https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2629/HuntMaxine_[compressed].mp3 5212b71027d83460716af6d18950fa22 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2629/HuntMaxine.pdf f6f9aef8e523d4053ce28e9bdc4dec5c PDF Text Text Interviewee: Maxine Hunt Interviewer: Dr. Reginald Shareef Transcriber: Andrew Sterling RS: Good morning Miss Hunt. MH: Good morning. RS: The first set of questions are background questions and these are just to give some history about you as a person. The first question is, When and where were you born? MH: Reggie, I was born in Northeast Roanoke. I don't remember the area of Northeast but my mother told me it was Northeast Roanoke. RS: Yes ma'am. MH: And we moved early to 6th Avenue, Northwest. RS: Miss Hunt, you were born in a house? MH: At home. RS: And what year were you born? MH: 1930. Don't tell nobody. RS: No ma'am. You don't look it either. (both laughing) And you say that you were born in Northeast Roanoke and then you moved to 6th Avenue? MH: Well, its Harrison now but we called it 6th Avenue back then. RS: Yes ma'am. And so that's in Gainsboro? MH: Yes. RS: Were there other streets that you lived on in Gainsboro when you were growing up? MH: After we moved from 6th Avenue, we moved to 7th Street and that's just below Berrill. You know where that is? RS: Yes ma'am. MH: And that's where I spent the rest of my days. RS: The third question is, Tell me about your parents and your brothers and sisters. MH: My parents were Samuel and Susan Nicholas. My mother was a homemaker. My father, during my early years, was a bellman at Patrick Henry Hotel. Later years, he was employed at Norfolk and Western where he remained until he retired. I have one brother and there were 3 girls besides me. There were 5 of us in all. RS: Now Miss Hunt, after your father got the job at Norfolk Southern, did he work a second job or was that - ? MH: No, he did not work a second job. RS: He just worked at Norfolk Southern? MH: I used to hear him say that, “If you used what you made well then you didn't need a second job”. RS: OK. Alright. Did you have extended family living near you when you were growing up in Northwest Roanoke? MH: Not near us but I had an aunt who lived with us. In her later years, she had to come back to Roanoke to live with me and she passed here in Roanoke. We had other relatives on McDowel (??) and Chestnut. My mother's sisters. RS: Did you frequent their houses. MH: All the time. All the time. It was almost a daily thing. You know Reggie, we had no place to go other than to visit relatives, go to school, go to church or visit relatives. So, it was almost a daily occurrence with them and we were very close. RS: It was a close community. MH: Yes it was, very close. RS: Yes ma'am. Describe your house for us on Harrison. Was it a brick house? MH: No, it was a wood house, you know. A two story house, not very well kept. It was very cleanly �kept by my parents but the house was not of that caliber. RS: Did your parents have a garden or did you have a garden growing up? MH: No. We got a garden when we got to 7th Street. Our backyard was mostly garden. We had cold house that we had chickens in that we called the hen house. My father even rented a lot off of 8th Street where he would go and plant, you know, have a garden. With 5 children back then, you had to have a garden because you had to can food and run the garden – the table during the summer then put up the stuff for the winter. We had fruit trees in the yard. I can see the Damson tree now. (both laughing) Cherries. RS: And you had chickens? Did you have to wring chickens' necks? MH: I never could do that. RS: You never could do that. MH: I never could do that but I watched my daddy do that but I couldn't do that. And then they would hang 'em on the clothes line, you know, so they would, I guess so they could finish doing whatever they had to do before we could take 'em in the house. (both laughing) RS: Growing up, Miss Hunt, what type of activities were you involved in? MH: Oh, most of our activities centered around the school and of course the Y. I was a girl scout, a Y team and, of course, being so fond of music, I was always in the church choirs and then the school choirs. And we would do our little traveling, you know, going around. But I was participating in about everything they had around town. I just enjoyed doing that. And see, all around here, First Baptist Church, the Y across the street – I'm trying to visualize where I was. And all of the activities, we participated in. RS: What's the earliest age that you knew you loved music? MH: It must've been very early because my father tells me that I used to, at the table, when we would be eating, tap on the table (tapping on table) and he would (smacking sound) my hands to stop. I just think I always wanted to play the piano. I guess from a little girl. But I guess I really got into the serious study of music around 3rd or 4th grade. RS: Were you in the band? What elementary school did you go to? MH: Harrison. RS: Did they have a band? Was there a band at the school at that time? MH: No, just a little rhythm band. But they had a little choir, you know, little choirs and I always tried to get in the choirs to sing. RS: Did you have piano lessons when you were growing up? MH: Oh, yes. RS: About what age did that start? MH: I imagine I was about 8 or 9. I started as a little girl with Mrs. Moore, Mrs. George Moore I think it was. Then later I went to Miss Whitlock, Miss Audrey Whitlock. Then to Miss Alta Mae Thompson. And I ended up in Roanoke with Mr. Troy Gorham. Do you know him? RS: No ma'am. I've never heard of him. MH: Well he was on Patton Avenue in Northeast. I don't know. We called him Professor Gorham. And by that time, I was in high school and ready to finish high school. RS: About what age did you start playing in the church? MH: I was a young girl. I guess a teenager. I would say 15 or 16. RS: Now your father worked for the railroad, did your mother work? MH: No, she didn't work outside the home but I tell you what, Reggie, she did what we call “took in washing and ironing”. She washed and ironed. I can remember people bringing baskets of clothes to our house on Sunday evenings, bring these clothes and she would wash them and iron them. I can remember carrying some of them back. That was how she made her little income. And, believe it or not, that little money she would take and pay for like my piano lessons and she was buying a piano, paying a dollar a month or something like that on it. But, that's what she did. �RS: Now for younger folk who will listen to this tape, your mother didn't have a Whirlpool washer and dryer to wash these clothes with, right? MH: No, no. RS: So describe how she MH: Now she did have a – What did we call the washing machine? RS: A wringer? MH: Yeah, a wringer-type machine. But that was all. And you rinsed them in the sink and then you carried them out into the backyard and hung 'em up on the line. And she did that year after year after year in all types of weather. I mean cold weather. Those clothes went out on the line. You didn't have any dryers. You couldn't dry 'em in the house so she carried them outdoors in the backyard where there were lines - line after line to hang them up. RS: And, at the time, again, so this younger generation will understand this, there were no steam irons. MH: Oh no. You put 'em on the coal stove and let 'em get hot and then you'd iron. That's right. RS: That was strenuous work. MH: It was hard work. It was hard work. And I have seen my mother, you know, just iron almost all day and night. Maybe take a few moments to lay on the sofa and then get back up and start ironing again. But almost running a laundry from the house. RS: And some of those funds went to pay for your piano lessons and to buy a piano. MH: Yes, yes. And she continued that on through the time I was in college doing that because you had to pay for all these extra lessons, buy the music and things. But she was a good mom. RS: She was a good mother. MH: Yes, yes. RS: And with parents working like that, you learned a strong work ethic in your life? MH: Yes, yes. That work didn't hurt anybody. And certainly didn't kill nobody. (both laughing) RS: Well the next heading is education so, tell me about your school life growing up in Roanoke. MH: My school life was very pleasant. I've always loved school. I've loved school. I liked kindergarten. Well, kindergarten back then was almost unheard of but I did go to Miss Gertrude Jones' Kindergarten. Miss Jones has been gone many, many, many years. But now Richard was related to her, Richard Jones and you would know Richard. RS: Yes ma'am. 0.10.53.8 MH: But I went to Harrison Elementary and from there we went to what we called – Was it called Addison Annex? - We didn't go straight to Addison. We did the 7th and 8th grade I think in one end of Harrison School before we went into the big building. And then we went to Addison. And from there, I went to Virginia State. And that has been just about the extent of it. RS: Now, at Virginia State, you were a Music Major? MH: Music Major, Public School Music. RS: Public School Music. And when you finished Virginia State, you came back to Roanoke. Did you seek employment in the Roanoke School System? MH: Not right away. When I first finished Virginia State, I went to Farmville to Prince Edward County at Mary E. Branch Elementary School. Everybody says, “Did you go to R.R. Moden (??) you know where – R. R. Moden was across the street but I was at the elementary school. And I stayed there for 2 years. And then I came to Roanoke. I was off 2 years and then I came into the Roanoke system in '55. RS: In 1955? MH: 1955. RS: And so you started teaching in Roanoke one year after Brown vs Board of Education, after the MH: But I was out during those years. See, I had married and I had come to Roanoke. That's when Donald was born. That's when I was off those two years. �0.12.22.9 RS: Of course, later, in Prince Edward County, of course, with massive resistance in Virginia the public schools were closed. What was it like teaching in Prince Edward County in the early 1950s? MH: It was nice during that time. You know it was completely segregated and we thought nothing about that. I lived there on Main Street, right across from Mary E. Branch and, of course, the church that was so active in the movement, First Baptist, Reverend Griffin, all of those, was down at the foot of the hill. And it was quite a peaceful little town. RS: What about the facilities? Were the facilities – The Brown decision said separate was inherently unequal, were the facilities - ? MH: Well, see, we really didn't know what was over in the other part of town. We just accepted what we had over there on our side of town. And I can't say that, but we just accepted what we had. And I can recall even at Mary E. Branch, we had music in the auditorium. I actually taught on the stage. That was the area that the children would come to. And there were times during rainy weather that water would trickle down the walls. RS: Did the children have to buy instruments or were they supplied by the school system? MH: No, the children didn't have to buy any instruments during that time. They were so menial that we just used what we had. And we concentrated more on the singing than the instrumental so we didn't have to be bothered with the instruments as such. RS: That's interesting. MH: See, the singing, you got your own instrument. The natural instrument. (both laughing) RS: The instrument that God gave you. MH: That's right. (both laughing) 0.14.25.7 RS: Now Miss Hunt, how long did you teach in the Roanoke City Public Schools? MH: For 34 years. I retired in '89. RS: In 1989. What school did you start off teaching when you got to Roanoke? MH: I went to Booker T. Washington. I stayed at Booker T. for – until we integrated in, what was it, '69? RS: Yes ma'am. MH: And then I went to Monroe Junior High School and I stayed there until Addison closed and we came back down to Addison as a junior high school. And what was that, '72 or '73? RS: Yes ma'am. I think it was '73. MH: '73, that's right. RS: And you stayed at Addison until you retired? MH: That's right. RS: Oh really? MH: I stayed on this side of town, Reggie. I worked on this side of town, in this area all of my life, Booker T. Washington up to Monroe and back down to Addison. And so this area I know and I love and the people of this area. So when I go into Kroger Store going around, I just see everybody that I know that I – I love it. RS: Its a community. MH: Yeah, that's right. RS: So was Charles Day the principal over at Addison when you were there? MH: No. See Addison became – He was at the senior high school and when it became junior high school, it had integrated and we had a white principal when I went there, John Garber, never shall forget him. A very lovely, a very fine fellow. 0.15.54.6 RS: So at Addison, up until – let's see '69 – Oh, you went to Monroe Junior when you left Booker T. right? �MH: When I left Booker T. That's right. RS: Now in Monroe Junior at that time, was that still predominantly white? MH: And at the beginning, it was a terrible experience. It was unpleasant. I went there in choral music and Mr. Polk was in the instrumental. Do you remember Mr. J.D. Polk? RS: I remember Mr. J. D. Polk. MH: And you know, it was not good at all because they did not want us there. I think the neighborhood did not want us there either. And there was always something going on. And I recall that (Interruption) 0.16.53.9 MH: I remember how the white parents were bringing back band uniforms and things, turning them in when they found out that we were there. That the teachers were going to be black. And that went on for a while and we endured it and then things seemed to just started to smooth out. And by the time we were ready to come back to Addison, we really didn't want to leave Monroe. But I met some very, very fine people there and I see a family now that had a lot of children there who were quite supportive. We talk of those days. RS: So initially, it wasn't that good of an experience but over time MH: Over time, it grew to be better. RS: Do you think you and Mr. Polk and the other black teachers that were there that as people go to know you MH: Know you and to find out that we were for real and that we weren't going to harm them. RS: The children. MH: That's right. And that we loved children and loved our work too and they became very supportive. But the day that I walked up that walk in August of '69, I said to myself, “If I had any way to support my child and myself, I wouldn't go in this building today”. But when it was time to leave it, I had a totally different view. RS: So it turned out to be a good experience and a good learning experience. MH: Yes. RS: Well its good that people like you and Mr. Polk were there to do that. MH: This is true. We accepted the insults and the remarks at that time but just persevered and kept going and it soon RS: Won the people over. Well you know Coach Day and I were talking about the whole phenomenon of Jackie Robinson integrating baseball and he wasn't the most athletic guy. There were other men in baseball that could play better but he can endure the insults and so he became the trailblazer. MH: Yes. RS: And in many ways, I look at people like Charles Day and people like you as being able to endure as you said. MH: That's right. RS: And then and that affects social change. You have to have certain types of people that can do that who were competent but also had the character I guess you would say. MH: Yes. The wherewithal or something to accept that. And sometimes you would go in at the end of the day feeling quite down. RS: Yes ma'am. MH: But for some reason we would get it and go back the next morning ready to go again. 0.19.30.4 RS: You guys were trailblazers and you really changed things. One question on here, “Did anyone else in your family attend college?”. MH: Well, now let me get this straight. Yes. In my immediate family, my brother went to Bluefield State. My sister, Jean and Jackie were nurses and they were at St. Philip's in Richmond. They're both �deceased. My sister Norma went to St. Paul. She did not finish. But all of us had some college. My parents were great believers in education. RS: Well that was my next question, “Was education a priority?”. MH: It was a priority. They had limited education but they believed that we should have it and they worked hard. And really all of us did get some very good training. All of us had college experience. All of us didn't finish. We had 2 registered nurses, a physical therapist and a music teacher. And the one that didn't finish was a very, very good cook, seamstress, she could do everything. But she did not finish St. Paul. RS: And your parents encouraged both the girls and your brother to go. MH: Oh yes. RS: So it wasn't that, “We're going to focus on him and “. MH: Oh no. Everybody had their turn. And we came on down the line. Everybody took their turn. It was just never thought of that you weren't going any further than high school at Addison. RS: So it was an expectation. MH: That's right. It was like grade 13 was coming up next year. (both laughing) 0.21.28.4 RS: Did you find that the priority of education was reinforced like say in the church and the broader community? MH: Oh it was. Emphasis was put upon education everywhere we went. Now you take my church. I grew up right over here at Hill Street and I'm still there. But you know it was on Peach Road. My pastor, they encouraged us every step of the way and he would let me play for services when I couldn't play and make mistakes would stop and cry and would stop and make you start again. And everybody made us. It was expected of us. And our teachers and our preachers and everybody told us, “You're gonna be somebody”. And that's why we were able to achieve Reggie, because the expectations were high and we were highly encouraged. 0.22.23.8 RS: So it was the community effort. MH: Yes. Everybody. RS: You can sort of contrast that with today where, I think that's one of the things that are missing especially for young African-Americans today. MH: It is. Everywhere we went. If you went to get your hair done. If you went to the barber shop. Everywhere you went, they expected you to do well. And they did not take anything less than that. And so we strove to do that. RS: Well, that was good motivation and when you hear someone like Hillary Clinton say that it takes a village to raise a child, having grown up in that type of environment, I know exactly what she meant. And you know it as well. And, again, the collective body has to encourage certain values. MH: Now you take your mother who was a librarian at Harrison. Donna, my daughter Donna, was there. They got out before I got out at Booker T. Donna would go to the library. I don't know whether you remember riding home with your mother. I got home, I called her home and down the hill Donna would come. You see, that's the type of support we had. I didn't have to have my child going in the house with a key around her neck. She was in the library until I got home. RS: And that's a real supportive environment. I mean, that – and so you have a group norm that you're going to do something. My mother would always say that everybody – God gave everybody ability to do something. So if you couldn't go to college, you could do something with your hands. There was something for you to do. MH: That's right. RS: There was a collective community expectation. MH: And everybody worked together. Everybody worked together. That's why we can walk around and leave our houses unlocked and doors unlocked and nobody bothers because everybody was like �one big family. 0.24.24.2 RS: When you were coming up Miss Hunt, describe your home life. For example, did you and your siblings gather around the radio to listen to stories or listen to programs on the radio when you were growing up? MH: Yeah, that was all we had. We didn't have any television or nothing like that. We would gather around the radio and listen to certain stories. Let me see, I can't even recall 'em now. (laughing) Some of them I could remember on the radio. We would do little things like to entertain ourselves like have a talent show. You do what you can do and I'd do what I could do and we just stayed in the yard and played around the house because you couldn't go out the yard now. You had to stay in the yard and we'd run around in the yard until it was hard like cement. You know, the ground was as hard as cement. (laughing) And you could sweep it with a broom. (both laughing) RS: Wasn't a lot of grass. MH: You could sweep it with a broom it was as hard as cement. (both laughing heartily) But we were just really there together and we enjoyed ourselves together. RS: Y'all were creative in finding things to do to entertain yourselves. MH: That's right. Have programs and I would sing and somebody else would dance. We'd just do things. You didn't have any money to do anything else with. We could go to the Virginia Theater on Saturday afternoons. But other than that, you entertained yourselves. And entertained each other. 0.25.55.5 RS: Do you remember while growing up when you got your first telephone or refrigerator or ice box? MH: That's funny. When we got our first telephone and the telephone would ring, we would knock each other down running trying to answer it. And the same thing was about Venetian blinds, I remember. We were just so excited when we got Venetian blinds because that was something really nice at the window and we would go and open and close you know with the cord. But we enjoyed the telephone more than anything. When it would ring, everybody would run to answer it. RS: Did your friends get phones around the same time? MH: Well see, we had party lines. Do you remember party lines? RS: I remember party lines. I was explaining to this young lady what party lines were. Party lines and private lines. Nobody had private lines. MH: Nobody had private lines. See you couldn't afford private lines. Everybody had party lines and our friends, we would eavesdrop. That's what we used to do. RS: That's what you used to do. (both laughing) I was explaining to her how you could be having a conversation and someone else could listen to the whole conversation. MH: All of your conversation. Can you imagine that now. RS: And that was entertaining as well. MH: That's right. And I remember one of our teachers was on our line and she told my daddy that she thought I was listening in and, of course, I denied it but I was. (laughing) But I know I didn't do that anymore. (both laughing) Yes, but our friends all up MacDowell (??) – See I guess they were on a certain line and so it was up the hill and around. We were at the foot of 7th Street. You don't even know where that is do you? You know where Petit's (??) store was? RS: No ma'am. MH: Did you ever know where Dr. L. C. Downing lived? RS: Yes ma'am. MH: Well it was right there. He was at the top of the hill. The minister lives in that house now I think. Dr. Bolden. RS: Yeah. MH: Well we were right down at the bottom. So all around there we were on the same line I guess. RS: So people in that community around the same time began to get telephones - �MH: Phones about the same time. But I remember that phone because we used to knock each other down running to answer it. (both laughing) 0.28.26.3 RS: What about a refrigerator? MH: Well, you see, we had really progressed when we went from the ice box. Now you don't know anything about the ice box. RS: I don't know about the ice box. MH: Ice box was where you put the cart out and the man would leave a block of ice. Well, when we got the first refrigerator we were really moving up. We were really high class then. And follow that by a washing machine. Momma didn't have to wash on the board anymore. We were really getting up, real up. RS: So all of these things were exciting. MH: They were. And we were grateful for them and appreciative of them. Oh yeah, they were very exciting. RS: And you felt like your quality of life was improved? MH: Was improving. That's right. We were getting better all the time and you see, after we got the Frigidaire, you could keep things longer. I remember with the ice box you couldn't have food at certain times of the year and in the real cold weather, you would just sit it out on the back porch. We had a closed in back porch. Set it out on the step. But I tell you what, we didn't get sick from it like they do now with all the modern things they have now. We would set it out on the steps and it would be covered up and stay cold and made nobody sick. RS: Any other things that you remember that when you – Venetian blinds, the telephone MH: That sounds so simple but that was big at that time. RS: Yeah, if you didn't have it that was a big thing. (both laughing) Was there anything else that you remember that you got and it was an exciting time in your household? MH: Well no, not really but we just enjoyed everything that we got. RS: And the new things that you got, you were appreciative of. MH: Very appreciative of and just enjoyed it. 0.30.15.5 RS: So as you got older and before you went to Virginia State, life was getting better? MH: It was because see things were getting better. I remember we were doing things like getting the charge accounts. We used to didn't have that and I remember when my mother got a charge account down at Spiegel's or Pugh's or somewhere. We could go downtown and just get little things. It was getting better. And we were feeling it too. (both laughing) RS: Well that's good. When you were growing up, was your front porch a social area? Was that where your friends came? 0.31.00.2 MH: That was the gathering place. And our house – I have friends today who were my friends then. Our house, being 5 of us, maybe where there was one child, they would come to our house. I have a very dear friend now who was at the church. And on Sundays, she would come home with me after church, stay for dinner and when it was time for BYPU – You've never heard of that have you? RS: BYP? MH: BYPU. RS: No ma'am. MH: Baptist Young People's Union. RS: Oh, no ma'am. MH: Y'all don't have that now? RS: No ma'am. So BYPU MH: Baptist Young People's Union. I think now they call it Baptist Training Union. �RS: I see. MH: I don't believe they even have it now. RS: No, I'm not familiar with that. MH: Well, that met on Sunday evenings about 5 or 6 o'clock, something like that. And that's when we would come back down to the church for that. And stay for night service, you know. And all of our friends would gather there. And my mother used to say, she would look around and there'd be somebody else at the dinner table she didn't even know they were there. But you know, there was always plenty of food. And our friends were welcome. RS: And so your house was sort of a gathering place. MH: For our friends and during the summer and when we would go to the fair and places like that, we would all go together. My daddy, like I said, we didn't have anything to take a vacation, but my daddy would take off a day and carry us to the fair. And that was the big event of the summer to go to the fair. RS: And you looked forward to that? MH: Yeah. And we would all get together and go to the fair. That was a big day. RS: When you went to the fair, were there any instructions? I'll tell you why I ask this question. By the time I came along, there was this, I didn't know if it was a myth or if it was true about Eco and Ico (??) how people at the fair would steal your MH: But that's why we always went together. And daddy was always there to carry us and we never walked around and talked to strangers or do anything, we all stayed together, all bunched up together. RS: That was a powerful story. MH: And everybody believed that. RS: And have been and even when I went to the fair, I mean, as a child, Melbur (??) used to have to take me 'cause the same thing, he would have to keep up with us. MH: That's right, you couldn't stray. 0.33.46.2 RS: No, you couldn't stray. What type of chores or work did you have to do, Miss Hunt, when you were growing up at home? MH: Oh, we had to do everything. There was no such thing as you – you know you cleaned your room, you washed the dishes. Now, my mother never made us do anything that would keep us from doing our schoolwork or takeing part in our activities but we had to do that – that room had to be clean. And we knew our chores. Mine was to clean the bathroom and some of us had to wash dishes. We all had different chores to do. But they never interfered with our training and school because that was first in her mind. But, we did that in addition to doing our work at home. And the front porch. I have a memory of the porch – I didn't clean it once and my mother really, really wore me out about it so now I have a thing about – I'll come out and clean the front porch if I won't clean the kitchen. RS: That made a lasting impression. MH: A lasting impression. (both laughing) RS: Now tell me this Miss Hunt, when you guys were growing up, y'all had a coal stove? MH: Yeah. RS: Yes ma'am. And your brother or your father and your brother MH: Would bring in the coal. That's what I was saying, but after we got the furnace, the coal house became the hen house. I said cold house at first. You know when the trucks would pull up in the yard and dump all the coal and then you'd take the skull (??), is that what you call it? And go out and bring in the coal and you would – Harris Hardwood, that's what it was – you would get the wood and stack it up on the back porch and you made the fire then (??) and we had heatrollas (??) is that what you call it? Well the big stove, before we got the furnace, you know. And you had a stove in every room, upstairs and down and everywhere but we were warm. (both laughing) RS: Now when you got the furnace, was that an oil furnace? MH: No, it was a coal furnace. You burned the coal in that and you had to go down in the basement. �RS: OK, so that was in the basement. MH: Make it up just like you would the coal fire in the stove. 0.36.11.1 RS: Now in your family Miss Hunt, what – are there family stories that were passed down from generation to generation that you remember? MH: I can't really recall any particular story. No, I can't really recall any particular stories but I know that there were certain things that we would just do at certain times when we would be having like Thanksgiving, Christmas and all like that, there were certain rituals but no particular stories. And there were particular menus. My daughter even now says that granny always had turnips with the turkey and I don't have turnips. And she remembers that. RS: So she remembers that ritual? MH: Uh huh. Certain things like that but no particular stories. RS: Were there any discussions in your family about ancestors who had lived during the period of slavery or the Civil War or anything like that? MH: No, now I never got any of that history. I guess there were some but my father was an only child and he came to Roanoke to work from Waynesboro and I never really knew too much about his background but no real – No, I don't guess we had _____. RS: You mentioned it, ironically, you sort of answered this other question. It says, “Did you have a family recipe that was passed down through the generations?” I heard you say that Donna always talked about your MH: Turnips. RS: Were there any recipes or anything? MH: Well, I'm not a cook. I'm an eater though. But I'm not a cook. And I haven't passed that on to my child. I tell ya, my mother did all the cooking. She never had anything to let us experiment with. It all had to be used for the purpose. So she did all the cooking for us. She would let us go and do the playing on the piano and take – I even once tried to take some dancing lessons, anything that was offered. You know Miss Farvley (??) had a little dancing class once. And we went to that. She would do all the cooking, so I got very little of that but she was some cook, I'm telling you. But we knew what we would have and we all had the big Sunday dinners you know. And we kept that up even until she passed. We would go to her house every Sunday for the big family dinners. RS: Even after you were married and had children, had Dawn? MH: Mm mm. And the children went there. We all went there. RS: Oh, I see. MH: And she cooked those good meals. And you know Reggie, she could get up and cook those on Sunday mornings and still make Sunday morning church service. I've often wondered how did she do it. Because when I get out on Sunday mornings, I can barely get a cup of of coffee and a piece of toast. But she would make rolls and cakes and things like that and we would have big dinners like that. And yet, she would be in the morning service at church also. I just can't RS: That's remarkable. MH: I just – We said she was some lady. 0.39.51.4 RS: She had to be. Miss Hunt, did Mr. Hunt or your brother serve in the military? MH: Yes, they both did. My brother was in the Marines and every time I hear something about Camp Lejeune, I think about him. And Jim Webb says he was in the Marines as he continues to campaign for the Senate. He was in the Marines. And I think of my brother. And my husband was in the Navy and I used to hear him tell of his tales over there about the Navy. RS: Did your brother have a good experience in the Marine Corps? MH: Well, he seemed to have as far as I know. He seemed to have. And then when he came out of there, I think that's when he went to Bluefield State and still after that he went to NYU. He kept going �because he – When he passed, he was a Physical Therapist at the VA Hospital. RS: And Mr. Hunt served in the Navy? MH: Yes. RS: Did he seem to enjoy that experience? MH: Oh, from what he talked about, you would've thought that he was the Commander in Chief. (both laughing) RS: Mr. Hunt was a good man. He could tell stories. MH: He was quite colorful. (both laughing) I remember at his funeral, Reverend Wilkinson made some remark that the whole church just cracked up. Something that Alaska told him. (laughing) 0.41.23.4 RS: Can I ask you about that 'cause your husband was the only person I've ever known named Alaska. Where MH: We don't know where his mother got that name from. And we used to just tease him and say that evidently she wanted to travel and had a longing to go to Alaska. We don't know. And that was really his name, Alaska. RS: Well even as a child, that struck me and I never would ask my parents about it. MH: Because you all wouldn't do things like that but now the children would ask you. And Reggie, his middle name was Colt, C-o-l-t. We don't know where the lady got that name. (both laughing) And he grew up with people calling him “AC” because he didn't like to be called Alaska. RS: I didn't know that. Do you have a fond childhood memory? For example, a holiday event, a family vacation, a gift, something that really sticks out when you were growing up. 0.42.24.9 MH: I don't know. I had a lot of really nice experiences. Let me tell you one. It doesn't seem like its important. You know there was a time when styles were important to girls and there was this style of coat, the hooded coat, the long hooded coat. And all of my friends, my best girlfriends had gotten a hooded coat. I didn't have one. And I was sort of hurt by that. I didn't have a coat. And one day I came in, this was my dear Aunt Sally. I came in from school and she was living on Madison Avenue and as I told you we would make our daily visits. And when I came in, after school I came by Aunt Sally said, “Honey, go upstairs and look on the bed and bring me that bag down here”. And I got up and went upstairs and brought the bag down. And she said, “Look in there and see what it is”. I looked in it. It was a hooded coat. I was never so happy in my life because I had what my friends had. Now, that doesn't seem like a big thing to kids now because they have everything but that was the way our aunts did us. She knew that I was upset over not having this coat and I never will forget it. She got it from Shutz (??) United. That was a store down on Campbell Avenue. But that's what the bag said. And that was this coat in there. That meant so much to me. So much. RS: Well, families used to really do that. That happened a lot in my family as well. If you wanted something, your parents didn't think you needed it or couldn't afford it. 0.44.24.2 MH: And I remember when I was at Virginia State – Now this was my Aunt Helen who lived with us but she had moved – you know during the war, a lot of the people went to Washington and Connecticut to get better jobs. And Aunt Helen eventually ended up back here with me and living and passed. But I was at Virginia State. I was a big girl then. And the choir was getting ready to go on tour and we were in Chapel. It was during Religious Emphasis Week and now I know you wonder why I remember so vividly. And everybody was talking about what they were going to wear on this choir tour. Well, I knew that it was nothing in Roanoke to get. I sat there in the choir and on the back of the church bulletin, I guess you would call it now, I wrote Aunt Helen. I wrote her a letter and I told her that the choir was going on tour and I wish I had something to wear like the other girls. When Chapel was over, I mailed that letter and in 2 or 3 days, I got a long distance telephone call. Well, that was unheard of. I don't think I had ever been called long distance at school and down the steps I came in Barrett �Hall at Virginia State to answer the phone. It was Aunt Helen. She said, “Look, Baby, I got your letter and auntie just wanted to let you know you're gonna have something new to wear like the other girls and stop worrying about it.” And she sent me a suit, black patent leather shoes, white blouse. And I had – When she go so she couldn't live alone, and her minister called me and said, “I'm bringing her to you”. And I kept her. I kept her. I remember those days. RS: Well, those are special times. I think the story behind that is that they really wanted you to focus on your work. MH: And she didn't want me to be upset about – She said, “I want to put you at ease. Go on and get your lesson, you're going to have something to wear like the other girls”. And she did. 0.46.39.5 RS: It reminds me of when I was at Virginia State and my Grandmother Thomas always did domestic work, right? I got to the point that I didn't particularly – We were a different generation so I didn't particularly like my grandmother working for white people. MH: That's right. RS: So I always like to dress Miss Hunt. I made this announcement one time. I came home and I said, “Grandmom, you're 70 years old, you ride the bus everyday. You don't have to do that and I don't particularly like for you to work for white people like as in domestics”. And the first day, she told me, she said, “Well, Reggie, you know all the people. They treat me well. They treat me with respect.” And I said, “Yes ma'am”. Because she was deconstructing my argument. She started off with that. And then, Miss Hunt, she hit with me, “And you know all those nice clothes you like to wear. Where do you think they're coming from.” (speaking simultaneously and both laughing heartily) That was a real good lesson for me. It was a real good lesson for me and it also taught me that just like your aunt was making sacrifices so that you could have nice things and again, focus on your work and not feel in any way incomplete, that's was what people did. 'Cause that's exactly what my grandmother was doing. MH: That's right. They really, really did do that. And these grandmothers are something. RS: Yeah, they are. MH: I'm at the point in my life now where I'm experiencing that. RS: And I know you're a good grandmama. MH: I don't know about that. But I am experiencing it. (both laughing) 0.48.16.0 RS: What are your memories of the Gainsboro Library and Miss Lee. MH: Ohhh, bless her darling heart. Miss Lee did everything in the world for us. It was right over there around the corner right? They've moved and made stuff around here so much I can't even get my bearings. It was in the bottom of the Y, you know. And Miss Lee was just everything to us. We went there. She – Not only did she help us with our work and how to use the library and everything but she was such a lady of grace. She taught us good manners. She taught us how to be ladies and we just learned to love Virginia Y. Lee. That's a name in this town to people in my age group that's revered and honored with great respect. She taught us so, so much. And she was such a gracious lady. We had such wonderful role models in ladies like that. And we loved Miss Lee but she didn't take no stuff from you. She didn't take no stuff off of us now. We had to walk the chalk and do the right thing. But she was kind. She instructed us and she made us be ladies. Talk about the card catalog and all that stuff. They don't even call it now. RS: No, they don't call it that now. (both laughing) But, yeah, I know she had a big influence over my mother and I think my mother used her as a role model. MH: Yes, I'm sure your mother did. 0.49.50.0 RS: Were there other people in the community when you were growing up that you thought of as role models? �MH: Well, you know, Reggie, our teachers and our ministers were always our role models. And we respected them. Oh, just think of people like Reverend A.L. James. There was a church over here at my pastor Reverend D. R. Powell and people like Miss Sly. I remember Miss Sly carried me – I'm still having teeth problems – Miss Sly carried me to the dental clinic up in Burrell and Dr. Fiers (??), Mrs. Fiers husband, was the dentist. I remember he started pulling a tooth and it hurt and I jumped up out the chair and ran back down to Harrison School. Miss Sly didn't do a thing but come right over there and just beckon me out the room and I jumped up and jumped in the car and went on back up there. But I respected all of my teachers and I dearly loved Eunice Poindexter. I loved her unto death. Because she was the choral teacher at Addison. See, that's where my interest was. I respected all of my teachers. Miss Sadie Lawson, Miss Ella Mae King – You don't even know those names. RS: Oh now I knew MH: Miss Ula Hackley (??) – Great souls, great souls. Miss Anne Sykes Morrison. She was my teacher and when she got married, we got mad. We loved her so we didn't even want her to get married. (both laughing) That's how we felt about our teachers, really we did. We were upset because we thought that if she married, she wouldn't like us like she had. (laughing) RS: And all these were intelligent, strong women. MH: Yeah, that we just admired and loved. Yes, they were strong women. And we wanted to be like them. RS: I remember Miss King and Miss Lawson and of course, Nancy Fiers and I are the same age so I remember MH: So you remember Mr. Fiers, OK. RS: I remember Miss Fiers so its quite a few of them that you mentioned. Actually, they were at Addison when I was in there. MH: Eunice Cooper, was she there? You don't remember her? RS: I don't remember her. But Miss Poindexter, I remember her. MH: And Miss Lawson, Miss Ella Mae RS: Miss Ella Mae King. And you're right, they were all strong. They were disciplinarians. They were fair but 0.52.37.8 MH: This is it, they were so fair – We would say that Miss Poindexter was so fair that we believed that if her momma was late for choir rehearsal she would put her momma out of choir. (both laughing) She was so fair and that we learned to respect her for. You towed the line. RS: Well, Coach Day and I were talking about this old issue of punctuality, being on time and that was something that I got from my parents and he talked about and Eunice Poindexter. You had to be on time. MH: Reggie, would you believe that when we were getting ready to go to the music festival at Virginia State College, we would have extra rehearsals. Now, she would call rehearsal at 7:00 in the morning when the Norfolk and Western whistle would blow at 7:00, she would get up and close the door. Nobody came in after that. But, we were all in our seats because we wanted to be in the choir and go to the music festival. And when the whistle blew, she closed the door. RS: That's an interesting phenomenon and I was telling Coach Day, that's the one thing I see with my children. My children think – They've learned all these big words now so they'll say sometimes, “Daddy, you're so neurotic about time”. (both laughing) But I gotta be places 15 or 20 minutes early. MH: That's right. RS: And they feel comfortable getting there 5 minutes MH: Boom! RS: That's right. I tell my son all the time, “Well you don't know if there's going to be an accident or what could happen”. MH: That's right. �RS: And it just goes right past 'em. He gets places but he's never early. MH: And he'll be on time but he won't have no time to spare. (both laughing) RS: And I worry about them about that. (both laughing) MH: That is so precious. 0.54.32.6 RS: What were some community leaders that you remember? And this is either in childhood or in your adult life. MH: Well, you know the one community leader that I hold in dear respect was my pastor, Reverend Wilkinson. And you see, during the time that he was really making the moves for integration in this community, you see, a lot of those times, I was out there with him because he would carry the church choir. And I had the greatest respect for Reverend Wilkinson and those who moved with him. Now some weren't so outstanding as far as the community was concerned but they were there with him to give him the backing that he needed. And I held him in high regard. Well, you see, our leaders, like I say, were our ministers and all, they were the ones out there with out educators doing the work for us. There were others in the NAACP and things like Mr. Holler and – Let me think – There was another man – Who was Mr. Hudsona (??) - I can't get that straight, my mind is failing me but he was out there too. RS: Yeah, I remember him. But an interesting thing, we lived right down the street from Reverend Wilkinson. I mean they lived on Staunton and we lived down on 13th Street. MH: Yeah, yeah, you lived down on 13th Street. RS: So I grew up with Nadine and Cassandra. MH: Oh yes, but do you know every year on his birthday and father's day, they send flowers to the church. RS: Oh, really. 0.56.22.8 MH: And it was just this past June 18th is his birthday and I went in church and this gorgeous flower arrangement was on the altar. And I kept looking at it and I looked at it and thought, “What are those flowers for?”. And finally I said to one of the ushers, “What does that card say?” And it said, “In memory of him from the girls” and then Reverend Stone finally announced it. And I looked at them so and Reggie, you would not believe, I said, finally I interrupted the service. I said, “Pastor, I'm just having an emotional feeling now”. I'm looking at those flowers. I said, “Would you allow me” incidentally they had named me a music director emeritus – I said, “Would you allow me, as music director emeritus to exert my influence. I would like to change the meditation hymn to one of Reverend Wilkinson's favorite hymns.” And he said, “Yeah, surely”. And I told 'em what number it was and we just had a wonderful experience and those flowers were from Nadine and Cassandra so you do remember him. RS: Well I always thought, you know, it was always tough, I assume, growing up to be the children of a minister. Reverend Wilkinson was a leader and I remember Nadine and Cassandra, they were people who helped integrate schools around here. MH: You remember there's a picture, I think the World News still carries it, they show it every once in a while, when their mother lead them up to Melrose School and Reverend Wilkinson was out of town on that day, I remember that. And I said to my husband then, I said, “Look, you get up and go over on Melrose because Uvasini (??) was the name we called it”. I said Uva's (??) going to be carrying the girls to school. And then the marchers told me that their mother said the same thing to her husband, “Get up and go over on Melrose because she's got to carry those children to school”. And I guess for protection for her and support. Yes, they surely did. They integrated Melrose School. RS: Yeah, I remember that. I'm going to Harrison and my mother was there so it was very comfortable for me but I can remember Nadine and Cassandra and as I've grown older, I can understand the sort of stress that was in that family. �MH: You know it was even stressful for the church. Remember, we had to put that door on the garage, you know the one that rises up because he would be out at night and we worried about him coming in. It was a strain. And even to go with him on the choirs when he would go on these meetings, it caused stress in even our personal home because my husband did not want me doing that. RS: Exactly. MH: Once, he told Reveren Wilkinson that. He said, “She's not going”. He said, “Because, see, she's going to keep on following you and she's not going to have a job”. And so Reverend told him, “Well, then that would give us a case”. And I remember Alaska said, “No case is going to feed us”. RS: I don't think MH: It made stress all the way around. 0.59.39.3 RS: And I think that as you look back on those events and people like me have benefited from it and certainly generations afterward, you don't think about the stress and the strain that that put on families and it put on communities. Again, that was a lot on Nadine and Cassandra to integrate a school. MH: Bless their hearts. RS: I think we don't think about it. You have to talk to people like you. I never would've thought but it makes perfect sense but the kind of stress it put on your family and Mr. Hunt. 'Cause I can hear Elmer Thomas saying the same thing and keeping the job was the main thing. MH: And here I'm gonna run out here and play the piano with you marching and carrying on. RS: I can remember once my Uncle Bunny who cooked on the railroad. MH: Yeah! I knew Bunny and Leo both. RS: Well Bunny had an alcohol problem and he fell out cooking. This was the late '60s and my mother gonna go down here and talk to the people about getting Bunny his job back. And I can remember my father telling her, “Don't do it”. And then he told us that Maxine, “If you're gonna do it, don't be smart with the people because I can lose my job”. That was a big issue. (both saying the same thing simultaneously) That was a real big issue. And I can understand Mr. Hunt saying, “Case is fine but that's not going to put anything on the table”. (both laughing) And so they've got a question on here about segregation and the civil rights movement and – Any memories about Gainsboro or urban renewal in the area? 1.01.24.2 MH: Well, now you see urban renewal destroyed my church. Now that was a big thing for us and we felt like we never got what our church was worth to us. And we had to go to Addison School for 2 years to worship. You know we worshiped in the school until we could get the little church that we have over here now and its a nice little church but its not the church that our old church was. Urban renewal really did put a hurting on us at our church. And we were unhappy about it, very unhappy about it. And I just think of all of this area. When I go around down here sometimes, I actually get sick but we have learned to pick up the pieces and move on with the times but urban renewal really did tear us up. It really, really did. RS: I think people would have to be from this community to understand. MH: And to feel it. You will never know how I felt when Burrell went out. I was raised playing up on the – where the new part is where Carillion has its – that was like the tennis court and we used to play on that area. And my father was sick a lot and those great nurses like Miss Willis and Miss Sims and Miss Moore, they nursed him to health. And when that place went out of existence, I was hurt. RS: I think – I don't know if you're familiar with this lady, she's a psychiatrist, a professor of psychiatry, Mindy Fullelaw (??). She's come to Roanoke several times and talked to people about the psychological and emotional impact of this very thing. And I'm glad that Mindy has done that because she records it because nobody – When people see urban renewal, they'll see new buildings or whatever MH: And they think its wonderful and it is in that way but what it has done to get to that. And I really �do – Burrell was really dear to us and I was never happy. And yet I go there to the Carillion doctor and I'll tell them, I said, “Well I'm sitting in the area of the emergency room or I'm -”. And the nurses look at me as if I was some woman out of – (both laughing). But, it was quite a strain on us when we had to give up Burrell. RS: Well, a lot of the institutions that people had invested in and they held memories and nobody gave the black community those things, these people really built those things up. MH: Reggie, think of all the things that we had. You could go almost across the strip, there was the drug stores, the theater, the hotels – Think of Dr. Brooks and Dr. - All the things that – And we don't have that. RS: Anymore. Well, they did destroy the community and it destroyed vital institutions. MH: Yes, it did. It took everything we had. And I can almost feel the hurt now to even talk about it. 1.04.49.7 RS: Well Miss Hunt, I have one final question in closing. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to share with me today or share with this oral history? MH: I don't know of anything that I could share with you Reggie but I think this is a wonderful thing because our children really don't know anything about it. And they don't know what a lovely place we have here in Roanoke. But they will never know if we don't give it to them this way. You know, there are so many little things I hear even in – of course you know music is – but they don't – our children don't know the hymns of the church. Our children don't know spirituals. I mean just so many things, even with my grandchildren when I talk about it. They laugh sometimes when I'm saying these things and there's just so much – I guess that's so dear to us that I guess our children will never know. And once I heard – and I'm gonna stop now – Once I heard them talking about they were gonna teach the children the National Anthem and the parents were raving about that. Years ago, we taught all of that. We did a unit on it. And every child knew the National Anthem, “My Country Tis Of Thee” or “America The Beautiful” but our children don't know those things now. RS: And thus, they're disconnected from the society because, I mean, that's what schools and churches and other institutions did. They reinforced these things. MH: That's the word, that's right. RS: And so the children really miss it. They don't have an appreciation for these things or even for an institution like this and I think that's one of the reasons a project like this is really important. MH: And Mrs. Lewis is just about to flip she's so excited over it all. She is really – And she's so grateful and appreciative. But she has done such a lovely job here at this library and I certainly hope we can keep our library here now. RS: Well, I hope so too. I mean I really hope so. MH: Yeah, its lovely and we are enjoying it and we call and ask her to do all kinds of things. RS: Well, she's – Carla's – She's what I think a librarian should be. MH: Well, the class of '56 and that was my sister's class, Jackie's class, my younger sister's class, had a reunion and one of the members called and said we're going to have a souvenir booklet and would you like to remember your sister - and I'm talking too much – and I called her and I said, “I want something beautiful about sisters, something beautiful”. Sent me two things that were just outstanding. RS: Well, thank you so much Miss Hunt. MH: Is that the lady that writes for the paper. RS: Yes ma'am. MH: That's what I was thinking. Oh! I like your articles darling. I've never seen you in person. Hello! I'm pleased to meet – I'm going on about something else. (both laughing) � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2629/Hunt_Maxine_5_Oct_2006.JPG f37c5a329db2baf504264c61670fb855 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Maxine N. Hunt Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Maxine N. Hunt Interviewer: Dr. Reginald Shareef Date: 5 October 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:08:00 Transcription prepared by Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5 October 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maxine N. Hunt; Dr. Reginald Shareef; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HuntMaxine https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2628/Coan_Gloria_Jean_[compressed].mp3 0185cba7e87d275492d922fd4e094729 https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2628/CoanGloriaJean.pdf dc6be46c623c5cdc330a45c06bfedffe PDF Text Text Interviewee: Gloria Jean Coan Interviewer: Michael Blankenship Transcriber: Andrew Sterling MB: My name is Michael Blankenship and today I'm interviewing Gloria Jean Coan. Is that the correct way to pronounce it? GC: Yes, Coan, C-o-a-n. MB: This is September 30th, and we are doing this interview at the Roanoke Public Library. Is it Mrs. Coan or Miss? GC: Let's just say Miss, OK? MB: Miss, OK. Miss Coan, where were you born and when were you born? GC: I was born in Roanoke at the Berrill Hospital. Berrill Hospital at the time was the only place that an African-American could go. Roanoke Memorial was there and it was smaller but they didn't allow any African-Americans at Roanoke Memorial. MB: When were you born if you don't mind us asking? GC: I was born in 1950. MB: How long have you lived in Gainsboro? GC: Well, Gainsboro was sort of like – even if you didn't live in that area, it was the section where everything went on, you see. But, I went to junior high school and it was named Booker T. Washington Junior High School. Its still there but its an administration building now. But that was a junior high school then. And its one of the oldest buildings. I know that it was named after Booker T. Washington and it had a graveyard in back of it. The graveyard was really something because a lot of sunken graves were in that area at the time. So I think when Lincoln Terrace and all of that area was built over graves of – I don't know whether they were Black-American graves or White graves or what but they were built over graves. And another place that was of interest was the Black YWCA and that was the best thing - That was one of the Meccas there because it was a little marvel for black kids to go and they could do things and they would learn 'em things, things that happened overnight like I went over there and had those things where you stay overnight, you know. And it was really cool and so – Down the street a bit, that's where you would find the library that was the Gainsboro Library. At the time, that was the only library blacks could go to. We weren't allowed at this one. And so everybody would go to that particular library not wanting any trouble, you see. 'Cause they wouldn't allow them in that library. In fact, they wouldn't allow us in certain schools like Jefferson. Now, Flemming hadn't been built but I think they just had Jefferson then because that was the white school and so Addison, which was built for black people. Now this was the only school that wasn't a hand-me-down school. Loudon was a hand-me-down school. When the whites moved out, the blacks would move in and that school was not, you know – and they would give us their old books, you see. These old books and their old tables that we would sit at. And often, we were really mad because these tables had things that was written on 'em and scratched on 'em. They were nasty, had gums on back – The books were all scratched up and you couldn't half read 'em but that's the only books that we had, you see. So, I think it made me kind of angry. It made a lot of people angry. We wanted one school that was totally black built and new. So my mom was telling me that the whole community would get together and they would bake pies, they would sell everything they had, yard sales and everything, to get the government to go half in what they could raise to build Addison School. It was the Mecca of the black community as for schools and they had the Addison Bulldogs. That was our team and I'll never forget the team. I always would wear a bulldog tag on my shirt because I loved them. They were so good. Now the black team had all the best black players and the white teams didn't. So, the thing about it – when they would come up against the Bulldogs, the Bulldogs would mow them down. You see what I mean? Because they had all the best black players. And the white – it was the white coaches who really pushed for integration because they wanted those players. They wanted those players bad. So when they had the civil rights movement, �them coaches were right in front, “We want those players”. (laughing) And so when they built Flemming, that was the only totally integrated school. Then the white coaches got those black players. They did everything to get them in Flemming but a lot of them wanted to stay with the Addison Bulldogs because then when they got the black football players, that's when they really started winning. I remember like we would go downtown, I think that the Jefferson Theater – That was a theater that they wouldn't let blacks in so we had our own theater called the Virginia Theater. You might remember it. Now the Virginia Theater was really cool. It had all the things that we would want to go to and everything like that. But the Mecca really was the Dumas Hotel and Fats Domino and they came to the Crystal Towers one time and I remember people were talking when big Fats Domino came there. He was it! When they had him at the Dumas, I think the blacks were in control of that 'cause Fats, he didn't want to play at any white place, “The only place I will play is at an integrated place”. This man had – everybody loved him, white and black wanted Fats. So he went into the Dumas Hotel, so they made a deal, they said the whites could go there on the rope part but the blacks would be there. You know what I mean? (laughing) But they would not allow them – The blacks would not allow them to sit in the chairs to watch Fats Domino because that's the way they did them over the years so they wanted to get back at them so they made them do that rope thing like they'd been doing them. And when that Fats Domino showed up, it was just like the sky rounding up (??). That's what my momma said. And that mad could sing and the whole town would buzz about that man even years and years later that he came. And another one who came was Cab Calloway. (laughing) The Cab was good, you know! I mean, everybody loved that man but either – you wouldn't understand if you wasn't there. But when Cab Calloway came to the Dumas, oh, it looked like the world had come apart because that man was the best singer and mmm that New York or any place had produced. And he was a really good entertainer. So when Cab came there, he went to Dumas. He said he would not play for a segregated audience. It had to be integrated, the same thing that Fats said. And so all those whites wanted to be in there, they just took, when he came there they was gonna mob Henry Street because they were going to see him, you know, Cab Calloway, ain't no way they gonna keep them out there. (laughing) The Dumas said, alright, you let 'em in, we'll integrate this thing and we gonna sing and you gonna hear Cab. And Cab he went – Oh, Lord, he went on all night. Now my mom seen this, she was there. And she said that was the biggest thing in the world when Cab Calloway came to Roanoke. Now these some of the things that mom had said to me. Because, it was something. I remember going on Henry Street as a girl. It wasn't bad then. You had hot dogs and you could go to the Virginia Theater. But beyond that point, that was it. Nobody went beyond that point because they know if they go downtown to Jefferson, they wasn't gonna let you in unless it was in the balcony. And a lot of 'em said, “I'm not sitting in that balcony. Either you let me in or you don't”. But we got all the best pictures at the Virginia Theater. And it was the Mecca. And they had barber shops, a lot of good businesses there and a matter of fact, the railroad used to come through there. The railroad used to come through Roanoke and they had the passengers would get out around about Henry Street, you know, that's where we'd get out and a lot of times the soldiers, there were a lot of black soldiers that would get out there too and they'd come right on up there to Henry Street and they would spend gallons of money. So, because all that money those soldiers spent on Henry Street, it was the most popular street there was. And there was nothing the white people could do about it because that was the established Gainsboro area. And so I think when those passenger trains stopped coming, that's when Henry Street fell off a little bit. And then, I think the town leaders at the time, they were Dr. Claytor. Dr. Claytor was the only town black physician and he set the standards for everybody and his family was the greatest family there was. Everybody loved them, you know. Then there was the – I think he's dead, I'm not sure, but the funeral home – What's the name of that funeral home? (mumbled) 0.10.52.9 MB: The Phizer? GC: No. (pause) I don't know how it escaped my mind. But anyway, that funeral home - �MB: Williams? GC: William Memorial? No, William Memorial was there though. It wasn't that one it was the other one. All my people buried there. But anyway, William Memorial did play a part but all the elite, the lawyers, the doctors and everyone when the time would come and all of the stuff was over with, they came and integrated Woolworths because they wasn't allowed to sit. They would take their dollars now but they weren't allowed to sit in the section where you eat at. So when the big ones showed up, I don't think no police would dare arrest them because they knew that these people were so ingrained in the black community they thought that there would be a riot if they touched them. So, they ate and they ordered things and then when they got through, everybody was eligible to eat at those lunch counters. And then that Mayor Taylor came along and he was the sole – Whatcha call it? – He had such charisma, you know. That man had so much charisma. And he became mayor about around that time. Like when all this stuff was going on, I remember sitting at the little TV set – you know the television used to be black and white – and all the news would have those things on - stuff like “The Eye On The Prize” - but when I was a kid, I was looking at it first hand, you know, not second hand – and it kind of scared me. It scared me so bad that I used to not want to walk to school. See, I had to walk all the way from Hanover maybe 5 or 6 blocks to get to Booker T. because they didn't have school buses for us. 0.12.58.2 MB: Did you grow up on Hanover? GC: Yeah, I grew up on the 1000 block of Hanover. That little house there – It was an all black neighborhood but they did have white people there, you know. But the thing about it is, it was Lakeside. Lakeside was a segregated place when I was growing up. Can you imagine a kid wanting to go to a little amusement park and they wouldn't let you? So I guess the white kids on the block would go to the amusement park like Lakeside and they'd come back and tease us, right? So my brother would just beat 'em up. (laughing) There'd be a big fight. And my mom said, “Well if you're gonna throw the stuff in their face, what you think they gonna do to you?”. So, the fights stopped and everything. But at the time, it was segregated. But the first time it became integrated, they started integrating Lakeside and my mother got a job there. 'Cause my mother worked at Lakeside, my brother worked at Lakeside and all these people worked at Lakeside, we could go in and ride free. So the thing that was formerly segregated then, it was just like a Mecca. But the thing about it is, what made Lakeside Park was a big swimming pool. So rather than - they had the biggest swimming pool almost in the South. But rather than let those blacks and whites swim together, they took and cemented the whole swimming pool over, you see. But it was really good. 0.14.26.5 MB: You mentioned your brother, how many brothers and sisters did you have? GC: I had 1 sister and 2 brothers. One brother is deceased and the other one became a Marine. And he spent 20 years in the Marines as a drill sargent. Then he went to school to become a teacher. Now he teaches some kind of history. He teaches History, Government and things like that. And my sister-inlaw teaches, she's a drill sargent. And their kid is now in the – April, my niece, she's now a Marine Lieutenant. And I guess maybe she'll go to Iraq, I don't know. But she's got a job in the accounting department and she trained at Quantico, Virginia. MB: Who were your parents? GC: Lily Mae Coan. She used to work on Henry Street and when – That's before she got married and my daddy was in the Army. He stayed in the Army like 2 years and then he came back and I think that's when she had Carolyn and she had Carolyn at Berrill because she was the oldest but no baby was ever born at these other hospitals. I think when I had my child Angela, it was at Roanoke Memorial. Everything had changed then. And so it was really something. MB: Did you have any other family members that lived nearby? GC: Hmmm. No, I didn't have any family members that lived nearby but I had – We had moved – My parents had moved to Roanoke – My mom was in – She moved to Roanoke from North Carolina. She �lived in Durham. She was born in Durham. Her mother was a Native American Indian and her father was named Charles Austin. He was a contractor. I think my mom came from a very wealthy family because – I don't know whether to say this but – Anyway, her great-grandfather, Scriro (??) was the master's son and in his old age, he took care of him. And because of that, he left him so much land that he was considered very wealthy. He left him the land and just about everything that he could leave him except the house. And so he owned everything down there and he became a very valuable contractor and when they built Duke University, he was the one that built it. He did the architect work on it. 0.17.29.1 MB: And what was his name? GC: His name was Scriro, Scriro Austin. And so he did all the contracting work in that area so he was very wealthy. So my mom came from a considerably wealthy family but her mother was an Indian, a Native American Indian. But when he died, Charlie Austin who was the great-grandson of Scriro and was a contractor, he became an alcoholic. He couldn't take it, you see. And that's when the family went downhill. But my cousins down there, they're still very wealthy people because of Scriro. But I've been there and I've visited and they have beautiful homes and things like that in the country. One of my cousins, Frank, he had a big old farm down there. It was something. But my daddy came from West Virginia. I went into the Virginia Room and I traced his family back to 1850. They were named Susan and Robert Woutin (??). I think Woutin (??) is a Native American name. But there was probably some Native American on my father's side too. OK, I'm getting off the track here. (laughing) Anyway, they decided on Roanoke 'cause she didn't want to live in North Carolina anymore and he didn't want to live in West Virginia or any of those places, Ridgeway, or wherever he came from. So they moved to Roanoke and that was about 1947, right after the war, World War II. And so, that's where I grew up from 1950 when I was born here. But when I was born here in Roanoke, you know, it seems like I went through a normal childhood but my parents, they were the first one to own a TV on the block. It used to be radio. I think radio, when they had John, you know - what was his name? - Joe Lewis. Joe Lewis wasn't born in that time but my mother said he had an uncle who was in World War I and in World War I, my uncle, he was a veteran, he was a doctor and he worked in – he was a medic during World War I. He operated on patients and everything during World War I. So he was a doctor. But he had cracked up during the war and became kind of – What do they call that name? - Shell shocked! And he had a great big beautiful car. 0.20.23.9 [Interruption by Alicia Sell with discussion about taking a picture.] MB: If you could tell me about the house you grew up in. What sort of house was it? GC: It was a two story house on Hanover and it was yellow and we had a big backyard. MB: Did you have a garden? GC: No, my mother wasn't into gardening at that time. But the thing about it is, we lived on Loudon, they did have a garden there in one big house. The house is torn down now but it had grapes and all that kind of stuff and my mom did a lot of canning. She knew how to do that old type of canning that would last a long time and stuff like that. And they said the house was haunted. It was really funny. (laughing) But MG: Why did they say it was haunted? GC: Because it used to be a white person used to live there, a white family, and they said that the man had cracked up and killed the whole family or something. And then nobody would rent the house, you see. So my mom liked the house so much she said, she used to go, she talks to 'em everyday but she said she would rent the house. And so when we went into the house, you know, things, strange things did happen there. And one time, you know it would rain, it was raining all the way and my daddy was in the house. At the time, he always kept a gun up under the bed, under the pillow, and my mother didn't like that idea but she said you have to. So, when it was raining real hard and then somebody banged on the door real hard and so he went down there and he opened the door and he said it was a �white man who was drenched and he said that, he said the “N” word. He said, “'N', get out of my house. This is my house and I don't want you living in it”. Or something like that. And he said, “OK”. And then he shut the door. “You stay here”, he said. And then he went upstairs and got the gun with the intention to shoot the man but by the time he came down real quickly, he was running, the man had disappeared. And so he told the landlord and the landlord said, “Well you know, I told you the house had ghosts and you signed a contract so you got to stay there anyway”. So we stayed there a year and all kinds of strange things. So my mom invited some guests to stay there overnight and so they stayed there overnight and then when she went to, when everybody went to bed, they said, the woman said, “Let that child”, she was talking to me, I was a child at the time, said, “Let that little baby girl sleep with me because they say if you have a child with you, the ghost won't bother you”. So, it was raining again and it was soaking and everything, the ground was soaked. And then, all of a sudden, there came a banging hammering on the door and the lady went down to the door to see who it was, right? And then all of a sudden, the door, you know, they seen the white people at the door, saying, “We're gonna get you. We're gonna lynch you”. And stuff like that. And by the time she ran back upstairs to get the gun, they were gone and then she had a nervous breakdown and her and her husband ran out in the middle of the night in all that rain and they would not come back. MB: That's really interesting. What kind of work did your parents do? GC: My daddy worked for the city. He was a, you know, where they collect garbage. But a garbage collector then when everything was segregated, it was the biggest job in town because you couldn't do anything. (laughing) You had to be limited. You had people who did things in their house like some people had a house where you go for food. So when the men come off the work, they would fix the food for the men and they ate the food, you know. Everybody did their own thing. Like on Henry Street, they did the little restaurants but everybody had their own little illegal thing. Like they had one man who would clean up other people's houses for a certain amount of money. And one black man would do this and one black man would do that. But at that time, they patronized their own people 'cause they knew they couldn't get jobs anywhere else. So in the community, they had their own jobs. They patronized everybody and they wouldn't hire a white person. But if you had to move, we had a certain person who did the moving. So they patronized that black person who did the moving. If a person, a black person was selling ice cream, they patronized that black person selling ice cream. And by patronizing their own people, it was guaranteed that everybody had a way to make a living. 0.25.44.9 MB: What sort of work have you done throughout your life? GC: Well, I think - I like to write plays. Of course, none of them have sold right now but I'm still working on that. I'm writing a book. I've got to do it over for Doubleday because they want it done properly. And I worked at Bailey's Cafeteria for a while and I liked that. _______ (??) and S&W. I worked at S&W. Then, I went to Richmond during the depression, got me a job at Hot Shots. But I did mostly food work. I worked at Crystal Towers for a while as a maid too. And so, I've worked at a lot of places. But mostly just food service work. I couldn't name 'em all. MB: What's the book about that you're writing? GC: Its about living in Roanoke and growing up – you know, the African-American myths that you hear. The myths that people tell ya. It used to oral. They never wrote it down. There are a lot of myths that people tell that they never write down and I remember all those little tales they told me but they never wrote down so I just said, “I'll write it down in a book”. Because people – you know before television, before radio and all that stuff, you had very little entertainment and so stories were the thing and every time you ask a person for a story, you give them a little something and they'll give you a story. (laughing) Right in my neighborhood. So, like a man once told me a story. He said - This one black guy said, “I'll tell you a story but steal one of your dad's cigarettes and give it to me”. So, I stole one of my dad's cigarettes and gave it to him. That was really bad and my dad caught me doing that. And he would tell me stories about things. He told me a story about this guy named Hog John that �started the Soul Food craze. I said, “How'd he do that?”. But I go on in the book to explain it. And then he would tell like you go to the lady up the street. Those people were really hungry some of 'em and they ask you to bring some ham biscuits so I brought 'em some ham biscuits and they'd tell me a story. Stuff like that. And then it got to the point when they were just begging to tell stories and my mom told stories at night. Everybody would tell you a story because that was the thing. It was very little entertainment back in those days. 0.28.17.7 MB: That's wonderful. Tell me about you school life. Like, where did you attend school? Did you have to walk to school? GC: Everybody walked to school. They didn't have any school buses I think. I walked to Loudon School. That was my first school and they didn't have any school buses. I walked 5 or 6 blocks to school but nobody even considered kidnapping then because it was an all black neighborhood. When you walked, you walked past everybody had little shops and things, you know, the barber shop. You just walked past everybody and they would holler. People would be on their porch anyway so you weren't scared of nothing. And I walked all the way to Loudon School about 5 or 6 blocks. We had a 1st grade teacher and you went there until the 5th grade right there. I never, ever caught a school bus. I don't remember why. I don't even think they had 'em. A school bus back then was low priority for black kids – everything local. Just like Forest Park, you just had to do something in that area. And so the teachers though – they were – I think most of those teachers didn't have a college education because then, if you finished the 9th grade, you was a teacher. You see what I mean? Or if you finished school, you was a teacher. I think if you had an Associate's Degree you were a teacher. But the white people, their teachers did finish college. That's why we were behind and I didn't know that we were behind, I was that behind. You see what I mean? But that was why. And a lot of people don't want to admit it and a lot of teachers – but those teachers were very old and everything. One teacher that I really remember was Eunice Poindexter. She taught my daddy when he was in Ridgeway and she was telling me that I would appreciate the school lunch program because she said when she was young and my daddy was going to school that they didn't have school lunches. The parents had to bake cakes and stuff and bring it to the school so when the kids come, they would have a lunch, you see. And that's when he was in Ridgeway, Virginia. And then, he graduated from Addison as a mechanic, my dad did. He was one of like the first graduates there. Later on, they gave him a job at the post office because he was in World War II. And also, 0.31.04.0 MB: After the 5th grade, what school did you go to? GC: Harrison! That's where we have that museum now. Harrison was the only school that you could go to. It was like – It was all black. At the time, they had the hand-me-down books but I think Harrison used to be a white school and so was Loudon. But when we moved in, they moved out and they gave us their old stuff. And so from there it was Booker T. And at Booker T. Washington, that's when I started walking to the Gainsboro library. I had to go everyday. All us kids we went to that library. That was everything to us. Back then, that black library was everything. You feel depressed because you weren't part of the regular life. You were in a world of your own. You couldn't go anywhere. Everything was segregated back then. You were so much in a black world that when you seen somebody white, you wondered, “What is that?”. I didn't see anybody white. The only time I saw a white person was the insurance man. You see what I mean? And I used to stare at that guy and he said, “Why are you staring at me?”. “'Cause I never seen nobody like you.” (laughing) That's the way it was. You'd never see 'em. Everything was black. Everywhere it was black. Every person you would meet was black. You didn't really see any white people because they were in their section there. MB: Do you remember Virginia Widely at Gainsboro? GC: Yes! There was a lady there and she had white hair. She was old then. I used to go there and this is the experience that I had. They had a little section back there and they kept it locked. I asked her, �“Why do you keep that locked? I want to see what's in there.” She said, “Well, I'll show you what's in there if your parents agree. I think its time people know what's going on in this world. We got to keep things hid from you. I think you're old enough.”. I was in Booker T. I didn't know. She said, “Ask your momma, 'Can I see that private stuff?'”. And I asked my mom. And she said, “She can do it. She can do it. You can do it. You can go and see what's in there.” So I went there and she unlocked the door and there were books in there that I'd never seen. There were very old books. These were her private collection books. She collected those books on her own. And so when I went back there and I looked in those books, I seen, what I seen almost drove me to tears. I seen the pictures of them lynching black people and the white people were looking around like they were smiling and having picnic lunches. When I went, I saw picture after picture and I think I started crying. I think I started feeling, “This is hate. How can I deal with 'em if they hate us that much?” To do this. I think I had a nervous breakdown after I'd seen all those books. And then I just cried. I just kept on crying. The tears would come out of my eyes and then at the time, I think, they were electing John F. Kennedy so I went up there home and I cut on the TV and I see John F. Kennedy and I said, “He's gonna stop this. He's gonna stop this”. And my daddy said, “John F. Kennedy, you see that man, he's gonna stop everything”. He was a senator then. He said, “He's a prince. He's a prince amongst people. That's where some of our hope lies is right with him.” And so he came through Roanoke as the senator and when my daddy got there, he put me on his shoulders. He said, “This man is a great man and you should see him”. And John F. Kennedy walked through there and he said a few words about Nixon and then he walked back and he had this orange hair and freckles and I seen him and I never forgot it 'cause I knew this man was a great man. Somewhere inside, I knew he was. That he was going to change all this stuff. And then I seen Martin Luther King on TV too and I heard his speeches and all his stuff and the dogs being put on people and stuff like that. I said, “Somewhere, this is gonna change. Something's gonna change”. And it did. It did about in the '60s when he got assassinated. That hurt me so bad. I thought the whole world was gonna come to an end 'cause I'd seen it in Dallas. And they had all this stuff in the paper. And I was like in high school, junior high or something like that. I liked to cry myself to death. And then I remember a teacher came into the room. Her name was Miss Cooper. She was a very old teacher and she was a history teacher and she came into the room and she said, “This is something, a great moment in time.” And she said that John F. Kennedy had been assassinated. And everybody started crying. Everybody started crying. The teachers were crying and I remember walking home that day after being told that John F. Kennedy had died and this was the man that I seen and he was a great man to me. To me, he was the man, you know, who was everything and then I walked home and I said, the dream is going to be over. Its all its going to be? Its gotta change. And so, when I walked home, I was crying, my mother was crying, my father was crying. And so many tears were shed for that man because the whole world to them he was everything. His wife was so sweet. She was like, she wasn't a dull woman. She was so exciting. She had this beautiful air about her, you know what I mean? And it was like Camelot. You see what I mean? He was like King Arthur and the Round Table. He was justice, he was gonna be like total justice to us. And now, King Arthur was gone. And we thought at the time, everybody thought it was the end of justice. Camelot was gone. The beauty that could be was gone. And he was a beautiful man inside I thought. And so, then we had Martin Luther King and we listened to his speeches and they put him in jail and stuff like that. And then, when I went to high school, I was in high school then, they had assassinated Martin Luther King and the whole school rose up and they were rioting in the schools. That was our school, see? I don't see how they would riot in our own school. But they was rioting in the school, throwing their books on the ground, you know? And they would sit down and weep on the ground. The students were so unhappy. And the teachers were unhappy. They didn't even try to stop the students from rioting. Everybody was throwing their books down. And they were crying, throwing their hands up. “He's gone! They killed him!” And everybody was so sad. And then so then the teachers, to keep the kids from rioting any more, they said, “Y'all go on home, just go home”. (laughing) “We're upset too. �Everybody's upset. Y'all go home early today”. And we went home and I remember seeing it on TV and my parents were crying, everybody was crying, just weeping all in the neighborhood. I didn't think anybody would ever get over it. I know I never did. When you hear him speak, it was not like just anybody speaking. It was like he would pull you into his self. He had the way when he spoke, everybody who listened to him was pulled into him like an aura. He could pull people into himself. He could make them feel what he felt. He had this thing called empathy and that empathy was so strong that people felt like he was a prophet that had come from God. I felt like that too. He was a God-like man. And when he died, it was like a something was missing that would never be there again. Mmm (sigh) 0.40.17.6 MB: You were talking about your school before. Were you ever allowed to stay home from school? GC: No. You know my mother, she didn't have the opportunity to go to school because of her mother dying so early. So to my parents, school was everything that led to advancement. Missing school and making poor grades was like giving up their dream. They had to work. To get through school, they had to go through so much and here we was, able to just go right to school. They couldn't see it. They couldn't conceive of us not wanting to go, what they worked so hard to do. Like Miss Lucy Addison who the school was named for, she had to take a ferry boat and go down the river. My mom would say, “Look at Miss Lucy Addison, Do you think she - you walk right into that school, right into that classroom and you've got that privilege that Miss Lucy Addison had to go on a ferry boat about 20 miles. They didn't walk 20 miles to get to school”. She said, “All those people back there and all those slaves, you are their hope, you are their dream. Don't let them down. Don't fail them”. You see what I mean? And that's what the teachers would say to us. She said, “You are the hope of the slaves. They never got to do this thing. They died and you are their dream. You are the future”. 0.42.09.1 MB: How far did you go with school? GC: 12th. MB: Did anyone in your family ever attend college? GC: My brother. My sister, she went to nursing school. But my brother – and I went to school some. But, it wasn't the same. I wanted to go to an all-black school but MB: Well, I was just wondering, like in the evenings at your home, did y'all sit around on the porch in the evenings and talk or -? GC: Oh yeah. We were really porch people. (laughing) You know, back then I think, there was very little entertainment. They had radio, TV, it was black and white and everything on the TV was depressing. But they had all these white programs like Father Knows Best. And these white folks – everybody was white and it was like we didn't exist. You see what I mean? Everything was white. I think we looked at Amos and Andy and that was really amusing. (laughing) But everything else was just white until you look at the reruns of Amos and Andy and it was like looking at a family of people outside yourself. And I said, what is it? Who are these people and why is there not somebody like me on there 'cause I'm part of this America too and so to me I stopped looking at the TV until Star Trek come on. And Star Trek was different. It opened up a whole new world of probabilities. Here they had these characters like, you know, these different people from different galaxies and stuff like that. And they let you open up a world where you could be just like these people from different galaxies and they all came together. You see what I mean? I mean everybody was Star Trek, everybody was futuristic then and I think that show opened up so much possibilities and so much probabilities that – I think its one of the things that really broke racism was Star Trek. 0.44.28.0 MB: Well, I was just wondering if there were any family stories in your family that got passed down from generation to generation? GC: Oh yeah, it was about how we got to Roanoke. I asked my mom and I don't think it was the truth �but I asked her, “How did we end up in Roanoke?” And she said, “Well, I'll tell you the story”. She said, “Well, you know my grandmother was a real, real dark woman and she always say, “My gracious to life” and she was jet-black and one day she went to this white person's house and she had done her laundry and she didn't want to pay her the money. So she took the laundry and she through it on the ground and then the white woman got mad and somehow she smacked her. She said, “You ain't gonna live past this moment”. She said, “You go home, we gonna come get you”. They were talking about the Nightriders. And so, the Ku Klux Klan Riders. When she went home, and you know the house that lived in was a little cabin by the woods. And so, she told them, “I'll go out the back door in the wooded area and I'm gonna stay here and I'm gonna fight 'em”. So they wanted to see if anybody was in the house that they could drag out to hang. That was the “Klu Kluckers”. So they came in the door and she hid behind there. She took an ax and cut off his head and she threw it out and she threw the body out. She slammed the door and ran into the woods. And then they thought they were all still in the house so they just set the thing on fire. But all of 'em was gone. She said, “That's how we came to Roanoke”. (laughing) I knew it wasn't true but that's the way she would say it. They were always telling me things that weren't true. (laughing) This guy told me that – you know we had pig's feet and chittlins all the time. Chittlins were real good but he said, “You wanna know how the first black Christmas came?”. I said, “How did the first black Christmas came?”. He said, “Well, you see them chittlins you eatin'. You see them pig's feet your momma always buy you.”. I said, “Yeah”. She said, “Everybody likes pickled pig's feet”. I told him, you know. He said, “Well, it was Hog John who done it.” I said, “Who's Hog John?”. “Well, I'll tell ya. You know back in those slave days, right? The Christmas was a white thing and they gave all the presents and stuff to them and they would rejoice and eat up all the food and black folks didn't have and they'd be hungry for a week until they stopped celebrating. And so, this little ol' guy named Hog John, he used to like to slaughter the hogs, right? So he slaughtered that pig and then he took out the intestines. You see the white people didn't want the intestines. They thought they were nasty and really they were. So he soaked 'em all in salt water until all the fecals came out of it and then once you soak it, he took it and boiled it. And then he made the little ol' hot sauce that he made hisself and then he said the feet, they didn't want the feet either. So he tried to – He took 'em – He had some vinegar. He put all those feet in a vinegar jar and cooked 'em a little bit and then put them in a big vinegar jar. And they'd also have the taste of pickles and so he said the people that was in the cabins, they could smell the food from the white people's house and they just didn't – They was just hungry. And so he said that he'd come in there to each and every cabin and gave them the chittlins and the ________ and the pickled pig's feet and they just feasted the whole week. And he told him the true story of the first Christmas about Jesus and he said, that was the first black Christmas”. I knew that wasn't true but you know – (laughing) MB: That's a great story. GC: I hear all these things from people back in those days. They would just make up things. (laughing) And I'd listen to 'em. MB: Great story. What kind of businesses and shops did your family frequent? GC: I tell you the truth, at the time, we had a lot of Jewish people in there, in businesses. And they would give black people credit. That's something nobody would do at that time. They knew who they were. So she would go to their place and she would shop at the Jewish store. You know, I think they called him Moses, ol' Moses. He called himself Moses but nobody knowed his real name. Anyway, he'd go over to ol' Mos' store and we'd make a credit application. It was in a black neighborhood and he would give us chicken and everything you'd want and we ate so good. So, my mom ran out of money 'cause daddy wasn't making enough so she couldn't pay Mos fast enough so she would make little payments but it wasn't enough. And so, Mos threatened to take her to court. And my mom told 'em that my daddy worked for the city. He just didn't have enough money to pay ol' Mos on time. And that she has 4 children and what was she to do. And so, the judge took sympathy on my mom and said didn't have to pay ol' Mos but $1 a month. (laughing) So ol' Mos was so mad. The judges, when �they'd take 'em to court, they would just do the same thing. You don't have to pay ol' Mos nothing but $1 a month because they were anti-Semitic. That's what it was. (laughing) And so, by that time, ol' Mos, he moved out. He moved out of the neighborhood. He just couldn't – That's the way it was. You had these little foreign people who would give 'em credit when nobody else would, clothes and all. (laughing) 0.50.48.4 MB: Do you have any favorite childhood memories? GC: Well, I can't – I think so. You know there was this guy – I'm not going to say his name since its gonna be on tape but, anyway, his name was Earl. I'll just say that. And so we went to St. Gerard's Church because it was all black, right? When we went, we would kneel down – and priests and stuff like that and everything and we'd see the statues and my mom said, “I just don't like these Catholics, you know, so why can't they go to that other church. And so anyway, she said, “I like the Protestant church better”. My dad said, “At least people won't have to be sliding around, you know to different churches”. It was OK until Earl brought a statue of the Virgin Mary in the backyard and we all danced – He had on these fake robes and things and we were dancing around that statue and _______ to it and kneeling before that statue and my mom said, “Leave that thing. No more Catholic Church. No more.” I think that's when we started going to Loudon Church when we was kids. But you know, when I went it was Reverend James. He'd dead now. I think his son is still a preacher. But, I don't know, I think his wife – but it was way back then. He was one of our preachers at Loudon Church. OK, they used to have an ice cream parlor. You know where you could go and buy and ice cream for a dime. But that was so far back but that dime was a whole lot back then. They would give us – I'd tell my mom, “We had to have something for the offering”. So she'd give us the dime and so we'd go to the ice cream store, eat up the ice cream and then when we was ready, we'd go back and we'd go to church, right? And Reverend James, he had baptized all of us in the church. I was baptized. And he said, “You know you kids, y'all have been baptized and all of this and you cannot even bring a dime here or a nickel because you go down to that ice cream place. I seen y'all go down to that ice cream place. (laughing heartily) You're robbing the church. Those dimes are meant for us!” It hurt so bad because I wanted that ice cream so bad. That ice cream was so good. For a while, I just stopped going because I couldn't get the ice cream. 0.53.25.2 MB: Do you remember urban renewal and what effect it had on the community? GC: Urban renewal? MB: Urban renewal. GC: I remember back in those days they didn't have housing – not housing - they didn't have apartments like for Section 8. You just lived in old, old houses that caught fire and were very dangerous, you see. I think the city when they took – before they built that Lincoln Terrace, they took those people's land. You know those people lived in the place where the gas company used to be. They had old, really old dilapidated housing but it was theirs and it was paid for. But the city took their land and they had nowhere to go. They were homeless. So they built Lincoln Terrace for the black people and they built Landdown (??) for the white people. So that was the first one. But even though Lincoln Terrace was in much better shape than those old shacks that they had, the city probably would've condemned 'em anyway 'cause those shacks were really bad, fireboxes. But, it was theirs and they didn't pay them for the land, very underpaid for the land. And that land is worth like billions now. So a lot of black people got hurt because they did not get paid for they land but they went to Lincoln Terrace and they lived. But it wasn't the same because you had to go through all these rules and regulations. Get a job – I mean I lived in Lincoln Terrace and you'd get a job and your rent would go up. They cut off your food stamps, no Medicare. You can't live off of what you got. Minimum wage was like $1.60 or $.85. Most people and I know I did, and its a shame, but I said I would rather stay home and take care of my own child than get out there and they gonna take all your money. They take all your profits. �So that's why a lot of people didn't work on welfare when they did have it because they said, “What's the use of doing this when they gonna take everything”. I think that in a way, caused a lot of black people to, a lot of black men to desert their families and a lot of black women to just have no hope. A lot of black men left they family because if they stayed with 'em, they would put 'em out. 0.56.12.2 MB: What sort of jobs were available for black folks? GC: Cleaning, what most white people would call jobs, they'd call 'em black jobs – Cleaning, food service work and anything they didn't think there was a future in it. Only thing that an educated black man could get was a job at the post office. The post office became the – I think they called the “plumer” or the educated job 'cause at the post office, that's where the real money was. If they'd get a job at the post office, they were fixed for life and then I think N&W. They let them do their dangerous work like untying those things and tying them back but you get a job at N&W you were fixed for life. You work on choo-choo trains, you got it. And those were the most advanced jobs and then the VA hospital for veterans. Now if you got in those three, you were fixed for life. You had benefits and everything like that. But the rest of the jobs was nothing. MB: Were there a lot of folks that owned their own businesses like over in the Gainsboro area? GC: They did once. When they integrated, those businesses went _______ (??) Integration – It helped the blacks but it destroyed them at the same time. MB: So it destroyed the community? GC: It destroyed the community and it helped 'em. It helped 'em when they could go out to these white places and get jobs and stuff but they were making so little, such low pay, it wasn't nothing. And it helped 'em when they could go to any theater and go anywhere they wanted in town but it destroyed the blackness. It destroyed the black businesses. I think it destroyed their pride. You know what I mean? They didn't have pride anymore. Not like they used to. But they did integrate. I did have start having a lot of white friends but my mom never did like those white friends I had. You know most of 'em were Christians. We used to meet at this place when I was grown, this place called Sister Potter's. And all those people – That's when I got – I moved in with Sister Potter, that white lady and a lot of people in the neighborhood, a lot of white people, didn't like it. She would go visiting around the white neighborhoods. She said, “You better stay here 'cause they're prejudiced. They don't want you here. And they don't like ya”. I couldn't understand that. But I stayed there at Sister Potter's for about a year 'til I got tired of it and I was working at Bailey's. And then, we prayed all night long and everything like that and all my friends were into it. We was called – I think we would call 'em Jesus freaks then, into Jesus and everything like that. So I brought my friends home and my momma took one look at 'em and she said, “Don't you ever bring those people home to me.”. You know, to her it was just like an insult. She said, “What are you doing around them for. You be with your own kind”. A lot of black people who was post – were that way. Not only her. But they were so hurt back in those days that they just couldn't see it. They couldn't see the whole picture. And a lot of black people are that same way. If you bring a white person around them, and you bring 'em to dinner, they's out. “Get out of my house. What you bringing that person in here for?” You bring a black person, they happy. But that's the way a lot of the older women, now, say in their 80s or 70s, that grew up in all that Jim Crow, they never healed. I think I healed more because I grew up in sort of like a half-way integration section with Woodstock and all that. MB: I think our interview is just about over. Is there anything else that we didn't discuss that you would like to talk about? GC: Well, no, but I kind of think that the churches holds everything together. That's the Mecca of the black community, the churches, the black churches. That's the only thing I see. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't have nothing. MB: Well, Gloria Jean, thank you for your time. GC: OK. � https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2628/CoanGloriaJean.1.JPG 1781b410bac9ce62e4a7c2cdacc9ada1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gloria Jean Coan Subject The topic of the resource Gainsboro Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Gloria Jean Coan Interviewer: Michael Blankenship Date: 30 September 2006 Location: Gainsboro Branch Library Total Duration: 1:02:00 Transcription prepared by: Andrew Sterling Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 30 September 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gloria Jean Coan; Michael Blankenship; Andrew Sterling Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CoanGloriaJean https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2627/Wright_Dan.1.mp3 10df5d55a1dc0d14306eb25f54258ff7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Daniel Wright Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Daniel Wright Interviewer: Kevin Speed Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Total Duration: 37:17 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Daniel Wright; Kevin Speed Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WrightDaniel https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2626/Thorton_Gordon.1.mp3 9e486227bd59770d7e5fc71869dae07f https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2626/thorton_gordon.pdf 4d05ad56078a6a747863976ffc2fce7e PDF Text Text MEMORIES You could sa~that I've lived in this neighborhood long time, if you includeVa. Heights,Raleigh a Court, andGrandmCourt. I grew up in Va. Heights-the first 18yearsin the samehouse,2046 Westover Ave. Thus my first story: .B~fore the Morris Apts. werebuilt. my address 614Northumberland was Ave., then, after they were bUIlt. It changed 646 Northumberland to Ave. The city renumbered blocks startingfrom Jefferson for St. East-West SalemAve. for North- Southstreets. now I lived at 2046Northumberland and so Ave. (I'd go to the bottomof the hill and look ~ over GrandinRoadat WestoverAve,,!)The City soonchanged the namefrom Northumberland Westover to Ave. Thus I thenlived at 2046 Westover Ave., my 4thaddress withoutmoving! As a 1itt1e just big enough 1eave sightof my house.T'dgo up and aroundthe cornerof boy to the BrunswickandNorthumberlandand sit on the wall nextto the sidewalk.and look at the backporchof the nouseacross street.I believea Mrs. Stevens the lived there,and shekept a Parroton the latticed porch.I'd talk with the Parrot.althoughI don't remember sayingmorethanjust words or noises. him I left my Northumberland Ave. homeat the endof' 44 during WW two andwas in the Navy for 2 years.then spent next 4 yearsat Va. Tech.We (I wasnow married)returnedto Roanokeon Laburnum the Ave (RaleighCourt)in 1950.We movedto Memorial Ave .thento LivingstonRd.(in GrandinCourt)and finally to Mount VernonRd. (backin RaleighCourt)wherewe still live. So I've been"HERE" for 74years!I've seen lot of changes,but really somuch. a not GrandinVillage is a big thng now. As I remember GrandinRd., the Westside of the first block had a Texacostationon the comer,then aboutan 8 or 9 family apartment house,with Dr. Kirk's houseon the comer. Now that wassomeplace! But first. aboutthe White Apartments theywereknown). About (as the time the theatrewasbuilt, it wasjacked up andmovedbackonto a new foundation,to give room for a storefronting GrandinRd. (the NaturalFoodStore?). The Apts. gaveway for parking! Now aboutDr. Kirk's. Shnlbsand/orfencesurrounded propertywith a drivewayenteringfrom GrandinRd. between the the houseandthe White Apartments. exiting from behind" houseontoNorthumberland. big and the The backyardhadRosebushes a Greenhouse moreflowers. (You know, I cannotremember time of a and for a rockbeing thrownthroughone of thoseglass panes!I guessparents prettygoodcontrol of children had then.)Dr. Kirk was knownworldwide for his Roses, I believea varietywasnamedfor him. For many and yearstherewere only houses from the second block upto this (Presbyterian) Churchexceptfor the Morris Apts. at Northumberland, the Swanola and Apts. nextdoor. Now the Eastsideof GrandinRd. startedwith Barr's Dime store,Bob's Resturent.the theatre.Brices Drug Store,an alley, a small LuthrenChurch,High's (or Canada's) creamstore,Meridith's Grocery, ice CloresDrugstore and I believeanothergrocerystore.The 2nd block startedwith an A&P Grocery,then mostlyhouses up to RaleighCourt, which hadbig graystonecolumnson eachsideof thestreet.There on wasa building of somesort with apartments upstairs,on the Southeast comer at Bluemont Ave. It's still there. The MethodistChurchand the Del MonteApts. weretherethen. From town therewerestreetcars runningon tracksthat cameupVa. Ave. (Memorial Ave. now), turning andgoing up Grandinto BrandonA On the first block of Grandinwasa double track section ve. wherethe North and Southboundstreetcars could passeachother. Thinking of the early30's,Va. Ave (Memorial) went upthe hill from GrandinRd. and went ontoa dirt roadoff to the left (nowEdgewood). remember Aunt taking us for a ride over that road andhaving I my to ford the creek(Mudlick) to get onthe pavedBrandon Ave. Also, our elementary schoolwasa two storybuilding with wood steps floors. It had an enclosed and spiral slidingboardasa fire escape. had We fire drills which manylookedforwardto. but somedreaded!It wasknownasthe Little Building, where the western part of the Va. HeightsElementary Schoolis now. I remember the mid 30's goingto a swimminghole in the creek down belowLakewoodPark.The in areais now coveredwith the buildings on the Southeast comerof BrandonandBrambleton.. A. GordonThornton,Jr. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with A. Gordon Thornton, Jr. Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Andrew Gordon Thornton, Jr. Interviewer: unknown Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Total Duration: 40:14 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Andrew Gordon Thornton, Jr. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ThorntonGordon https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2625/SimpsonEdBob.1.mp3 847b9f52082b98614afd0df746266e4b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ed and Bob Simpson Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Ed and Bob Simpson Interviewer: Claire Hunter Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Total Duration: 21:54 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edward C. Simpson; Robert D. Simpson, Jr.; Claire Hunter Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SimpsonEdBob https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2624/Sharpley_Dorothy.1.mp3 3a42fd3754b541ca5eba92453d5c2e7a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dorothy Sharpley Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Dorothy Sharpley Interviewer: Frank Eastburn Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Total Duration: 33:16 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SharpleyDorothy https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2623/McDaniel_Brenda.1.mp3 a7d30c65939e83f740ef311f99c7aa52 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Brenda McDaniel Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Brenda McDaniel Interviewer: Mary Bishop Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Total Duration: 24:01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brenda McDaniel; Mary Bishop Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McDanielBrenda https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2622/Fariss_Margaret.mp3 ae02a36e732204facd4535388511f8b7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Margaret Fariss Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with Margaret Fariss Interviewer: Mary Bishop Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Total Duration: 31:14 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Margaret Fariss; Mary Bishop Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FarissMargaret https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2621/Atkinson_James.2.mp3 a9cd3936ae3e2672461eacc442b8141e https://www.virginiaroom.org/digital/files/original/20/2621/Atkinson_James.1.pdf 82dfb796a9320741297dd8025fb9c13c PDF Text Text Interviewee: James Atkinson Interviewer: Claire Hunter Transcriber: Susan Hensley CH: I'm sorry, your name again sir was... JA: Jim's what I go by, no middle name, no middle initial, well, James is given, but in the service you always have to put something down, so it's either NMI or NMN, no middle name or no middle initial. CH: I'm Claire Hunter and I'm interviewing Jim Atkinson at the second annual block party on Saturday, May 20, 2006. Ok, Jim, can you tell us where and when you were born? JA: I was born at Jefferson Hospital, 1929, July 7th, and my family lived on Maiden Lane, I think at that time, and then moved in 1930 over to Arlington Road, and I lived there through high school, college, Army, and the company I was with transferred me quite a bit, but when I retired I came back into the same house I grew up in. CH: Really, on Arlington? Ok. Where did you live on Maiden Lane? JA: I'd have to go back and look. I was less than one, so... CH: Oh, that'll do it...do you have brothers and sisters that are still around? JA: I have a brother and a sister; both are dead. My brother just died in April. He was 82. My sister died about, I think it was '97. She had an operation and caught a staph infection or something in the hospital, so.... She would be the expert cause she knew a lot more about the area than my brother and I, after we were gone so much. CH: Were your parents born here or had they moved here? JA: No, my father was born in Pocahontas, Virginia. CH: Where's that? JA: Tazewell County. That's where the famous Pocahontas Coal Mines are, and his father ran a hotel up there, and they moved down here when he was still in junior high, I guess you'd call it in my time, and he later became the Managing Editor to the Roanoke Times. And he had that job for 30 some years. And he's a graduate of Roanoke College. My mother was born in Troutville, and she worked for the City for a while, but I don't think she worked after they were married. Well, she worked but not in a paying job. CH: Now, when you left, how old were you when you left? You said you were transferred with your job... JA: Well, I finished high school in '47, Tech in '50 and I was in the Army three years until about '55, and I came back and I was here a couple years, and then transferred to Richmond and later on, from there, I went to Winston-Salem and back to the Richmond area. I was in all four of the localities in the Richmond area. CH: Who were you working for? JA: Graybar Electric and they were at 6th and Salem when I first started and Jefferson High is at 6th and Campbell, so I would just walk two blocks over to Graybar and get a ride home with a guy that was employed by them. I had to get a Child Labor Permit, cause I was only 15, and, so anyhow, 45 years later I retired from that same company. CH: What brought you back? JA: Well, my mother was in bad shape and she didn't want to leave the house, and my sister was taking care of her, and Mom was getting a little hard to get along with, and so I just took early retirement and came back to help out, but she died the day that I was retired, so I wasn't much help. CH: But you're back here now. What were the changes that you'd seen? Were there big changes when you came back? JA: Quite a bit. We used to play all over this area. CH: Where the church is? This area? �JA: Well, I'm in the Cradle Roll of the church here. My picture's up on the wall down there somewhere, unless they've destroyed it, and I was telling somebody, I'm with the class of '47 at Jefferson, and I handle all the reunions and so forth, and so I borrowed that from them to take it down, and I think we had something like 7 to 10 people who were in that picture, that were still in Roanoke, went all the way through Jefferson. And, of course, I went to Wasena. Nell Walters, was my first grade teacher, and Mrs. Smith was the principal. And you wouldn't recognize the school now from what it was then. CH: How different was it? What was it like then? JA: Well, it was much smaller. And we would line up outside and they would ring the bell and we would march silently into the classrooms, and they also didn't have a cafeteria; didn't have a gymnasium. If you lived within a mile of the city, you had to go home and eat. And if you lived further than that, you could bring a bag lunch and they would let you sit with one teacher and a desk and eat. Then the 6th grade moved to Virginia Heights, but because it was crowded, they took our 6th grade and just put us at Woodrow in one house. I mean, one room, and so we didn't change when all the bells would ring and they started changing class, we stayed in the same room the whole time. Ms. Layton was our teacher that went with us from Wasena. And then I went to Woodrow officially in junior high, and played on the basketball team over there, and one of the players a year ahead of me was Jimmy Slaughter, who played All-American at South Carolina. And Louie McClellan was on the team. Charlie Williams...Charlie's had a stroke recently. And then from there, down to Jefferson and I was on their junior varsity basketball, but then when I started work, I couldn't do that, so I never went but that half a year, as far as that team was concerned. And Hump Hurt was the basketball coach. Mr. McNish was the coach over here at Woodrow and about two years ago, I went up to talk to him with Bill Shrader, who's also from this area, and he went to Roanoke High School in '23, was his class. His mind was just as sharp as it could be and he hauled off and named all the players, and so forth. CH: Wonderful. What kinds of changes have you seen when you come back, outside of.... JA: Well, we had a lot of vacant lots, where we used to play ball. This was vacant over here, the one across the street where the apartments are, was vacant. Uh, some on Arlington, some on Greenwood. The City had already bought Shriner's Hill. That was going to be the high school, this was in the 30's, and they finally built it in '63, something like that. Uh, had the street cards, ran right up and down here. CH: Oh, you did? JA: Year, they turned around, didn't turn around, they just reversed in front of Patrick Henry up there, and that was a big sand box and they would get sand in the brakes. CH: Where did they run, downtown? JA: Yeah, they went down across Memorial Bridge, over to, I guess it was Patterson and on down that way, and big interchange was right there at the corner of Jefferson and Campbell, and uh, in front of the, why Grandin Road is so wide is, that's where the one coming from up here passed the one coming from town and that was a double track; and during Halloween, we'd wax the tracks out in front of here and they couldn't get traction on the thing. And let's see, and I was in Troop 2 here, which was Barney Haley was the Scout Master. His son's still around town, a retired dentist. He may be able to give you a lot more information on that. CH: Have you seen big changes in Grandin Road? Did you used to go the library when it was down there? JA: Yes, the little teeny one down there? Yeah, it was used then. The Community Inn was there, but it was another name. Of course, Grandin Theater was there. The barber shop was there. Bryce's Drugstore sat there where the alley goes down. The Lutheran Church was sitting right across the alley on Grandin, and then Kroger's finally came....they moved the houses back into the back of Dr. Kirk's house and put Kroger, that was the first big supermarket. But at one time, we had about five grocery stores in that area. And the one across, you know where the fire department is, well, that building there �was a grocery store. The one of the corner of, let's see, it was North? On the other side, but it was, it wasn't Maiden Lane, what was the name of the other one. Anyhow, that was one sitting on the corner. CH: Westover, maybe? JA: Yeah, it was Westover. And then where the restaurant and all is, that was a grocery store. Then, the one down on the corner was a grocery store, but the Kroger was the first one you would say was a supermarket design, and I think Mick or Mack was, I forget when they opened over on the street that comes down, Brighton, there. Uh, the cemetery was one of our playgrounds. It has a fence around a lot of it now, but then it was hedges, so you could go in there and play and, of course, it was always in good shape, and it was nowhere filled up as it is now. CH: What was your fondest memory, outside of the trolley tracks on Halloween? JA: Well, I would say probably all of the sports we played out in this area. We had a sandlot team over here at Woodrow. We had a baseball team and softball during the summer. Recreation Department, um, and touch football games on the vacant lots all over the place. And, we'd go to Shriner's Hill some, but it was pretty wooded then, and we'd cut down trees to put backboards on in the backyard and that kind of stuff, and we camped out over there some, but not much. And um, cause as scouts, we would go to the various camps that they had. I guess Troop 2 is still here, isn't it? And Dr. Robertson's son was in my class; John, I saw him at our last reunion; he lives up in Connecticut, somewhere up there. He was our State Latin Scholar. CH: You have a wonderful memory. JA: When I asked him, I said, did you ever use your Latin, he said, "No, I didn't", but he was, what was that Holiday Magazine, wasn't that a famous one? He was editor of that and then he was with the Reader's Digest. CH: What about Arlington? Have you found that's changed a lot? JA: Well, it's changed quite a bit. When I left, it was mostly, well a lot of people my age, and of course, as the kids left, the ones that were left were the older folks. My mother was one of them, and Dad too, and anyhow, they started subdividing the houses, you know, to rent them out to people, and so forth, and like I say, when I don't know when the trend started, but probably around the early '80's, then the young people started buying the houses and remodeling them, and um, because of the schools primarily. And, so it was, Patrick Henry came in later, when did it start, '63, '64, something like that? Lakewood Colony, the Lake Park, we used to ice skate on that when it would freeze over and... CH: Now where is that? JA: As you go down Brandon, in that City Recreation, and I remember we'd buy, of course I had an older brother and sister, so you got the hand-me-downs on the ice-skates cause it didn't freeze every year, but if they did buy you one, it was about two sizes too large, so it would last a few years. You wore socks leading up to it. And, let's see, I don't, uh, I carried papers starting at Grandin Road and Windsor. That's where I picked them up and I went up Windsor and all the way down Arlington and over on Center Hill. Center Hill was only that little hump there, and I had Dr. Johnson lived on the road that's now filled up, and the old Persinger place, so I'd have to go through the field there to get to those two houses, and one thing I remember is, see I'd be on Brandon for a while, and you'd always, not always, but you'd see hearses coming through there; apparently that's when they transported the bodies between the different places. And they were, see it was 11, and they would, if they would see somebody, they'd stop and ask for directions, but that was, uh, I remember that the hearses all the time; I guess they wanted to travel at night for reasons, but anyhow. I did that for about three years and the hardest part of delivering papers is collecting. CH: Some things probably don't change. JA: The wife would be at home and she's like 'He's not here now. He'll be here after 5. You'd go back at 5, and then they weren't there and so forth. That was really the hardest part, and I think it was a quarter for the six days, plus the Sunday paper. �CH: Now, given that your Dad was so involved with the paper, what were the biggest events you remember, growing up? Were there really big historical events? JA: Well, it was WWII, and of course, we had a lot of boys killed from this area. I delivered papers to about four of the houses that had sons were killed. Uh, and the big news was the war, from '41 on. I was in the service during the Korean War, but never left the states. And I remember going to the stadium when it was first dedicated. And the VPI/VMI game was a real big deal then. They would play on Thanksgiving Day and then all the stores would be open, start their Christmas stuff, and people would come from all over the place; Southwest Virginia, Richmond, Norfolk and so forth, and of course, that was the big game and the people from the newspaper in Norfolk and Richmond and Washington all covered it. And so there was gas rationing and meat rationing and sugar rationing and all that stuff during the war, but it was never a big hardship, I mean, you could always find something. You couldn't get tires and you couldn't get gas except the amount that was on the card. The thing that was unusual, we would go to Jefferson and we would come over to the corner down here, and people would stop and pick us up. This was back in the days when you thumbed everywhere. I went across the country three or four times when I was in the service and you wouldn't do it now, but they'd pull up and four or five would pile in the car and off you'd go and you'd still have ten left and the next car’s pick up some more, and take them on down, because just about everybody worked downtown then, and so it was no problem getting a ride to school. When I was at Woodrow, I belonged to that; I don't know what you call it, that health club, the Fitness Room. Well, and Woodrow has really changed. We didn't have a gym and we didn't have a cafeteria over there either. CH: When you say, it's changed, was it primarily the size? JA: It's the size primarily. Well, and you go over there and there's 50 computers in the place, and we didn't know how to spell computer then, so.... And, the park was, we had days when we'd go by and pick up the glass and metal off of the field, cause it was filled in to make it level, you know. And of course, it worked its way up to the top and that sort of thing. And Raleigh Court football team was very successful and Virginia Heights, well I never got there, but Norwich was down the hill; that was a pretty rough area then, so you stayed out of Norwich. And when you got up to about where the English Garden Apartments are, that was the end of the road and on the field there, at Woodrow, the guy owned Lakeview Motel and everything, Ingram, was that his name? But anyhow, that was orchards and horses and stuff like that. And the area over here after the first two blocks of Avenel and the other one that was farm land. I think Mr. Adams owned that later on. The asphalt paving man. And, let's see, the Grandin Court area stopped right there too, at what is now, there was no Carlton then, as I recall. One thing that has always amused me about it is, our phone number is 342-6879 and I think it started out as 789 and all they did is add on because Dad had, was with the newspaper, we had a private line, which was unusual then and so a lot of the neighbors didn't have phones; they'd come to use the phone, and oh, I don't recall too much exciting going on. If we played one of the other parks, we'd get there the best way we could. Our parents didn't take us in the car. We'd go on bicycles or thumb our way over or something like that. CH: Are any of the people you talked about, some of the older people on Arlington, are any of them still there? Are you still in touch with them? JA: No. I used to kid Mother that people didn't move much then, so the Aldrich house or the Smith house or whatever, that's the way you referred to it. And I was at a funeral one time and a lady living down the street in the Aldrich house, and I was telling somebody that she lives in the Aldrich house. And she said, "I've been here for what, 20 years, and it's still the Aldrich house." That's the way you referred to all of them then, and I don't think there's a single old timer still alive, cause, see I'm 76, so they would have had to be 20 years older, and uh, we're getting a few older ones now. I might be the oldest one on the block, I don't know. CH: Where are you on Arlington? �JA: 1855; it's almost dead center. Do you know any people over there? CH: Not names, but we moved here two years ago and we looked at houses there. My brother lives on Greenwood so we know the area. JA: Well, you know where Nat Patterson lives on Greenwood? CH: Yes. JA: Ok, well Nat was with me through all of this stuff. And he used to live in the house at the corner of Grandin and Brandon. That's where he grew up and he had a huge house and we could play basketball in his attic. His grandmother didn't like it, but anyhow, if you went directly out my backyard, you'd run into Nat's house on the other side of the street, and that was a corner lot there, at Shirley and Greenwood. What's the yellow house, pretty nice looking one still. And, let's see, where was the other one? They didn't have as many. Greenwood was developed before Arlington, and of course, the development was cause of the streetcar, that's the way, they put the streetcar in and the developers would come because not many people owned cars then. CH: What, the streetcar basically went up Memorial and over on Grandin? JA: Year, it came across Memorial Bridge. That was Virginia Avenue back then, and I think my original address was 555; it's now 1855. When Roanoke annexed around '47 or '48 the Williamson Road area, well they had to rename some of the streets cause they had duplicates. I think that South Roanoke had a Virginia Avenue, see, so that's when it became Memorial, and of course, the bridge was to memorial the WWI, and the one I like is out in Grandin Court, uh, Livingston Road was originally Stanley.....Stanley and Livingston. And if the guy, Hildebrand was the City Engineer, and he hired a bunch of the boys from Tech to go over and start renumbering because the 555 didn't mean anything. Now I'm 18 blocks from the middle of town, see, so they did all that, I think before 1950, or right around that time. And they left your last two usually, but instead of the 500 block it was the 18. And let's see, like I said, I left here in '55, and I was back here for a while and I lived over on Fairway then, and I went to Harrisonburg from here, and I went to Richmond, and then to Atlanta, and then back to Richmond. CH: You just kept coming back. JA: Oh, yeah, see when Mother and Dad were still alive, it wasn't that bad a thing. And when I was covering the Shenandoah Valley as a salesman, I went all the way up to Front Royal and US 11 was that famous three-lane thing. And we didn't have the interstates then. I think they may have had part of it before I left up there in the '60's, but, so that was a thrill. And, you talk about something that's changed now, go down 11 now and look at all the old places that I used to know are boarded up and closed on the thing. Around here, I.....Oh, one thing that I would like to ask somebody to tell me, everybody refers to Woodrow Wilson as Woodrow; they never say Wilson and I wonder why. So I've asked people that have their high schools as Woodrow Wilson, and they say, no, we call it Woodrow Wilson. And I ask them, "Do you ever just call it Woodrow?" and they say "No, I don't think so. It's just always Woodrow Wilson." But anybody that ever went there never called it Wilson. Just Woodrow. And, so I don't know if we should call Jefferson, I guess Thomas. I've got, I was telling a girl, I had the memorabilia room down at Jefferson. I helped set that up and we have plenty of good photographs that they may want, because Jefferson started in '25; that was the first graduating class and we go all the way back through 1896 on Roanoke High School, I think. The first class that graduated from Roanoke High School was all girls. I think it was twenty some of them. I've tried to ask and find out why and the only thing I've been able to come up with is boys went to work them and if you were from a rich family, they sent you off to a private school, so, not a single boy in the graduating class. Wasena Bridge was built in my lifetime. The other was a wooden structure. Memorial Bridge, part of that was still there. What used to be a filling station sitting down there, where right before you go across the bridge where Deyerle or Driscoll, Driscoll, I think it was. And that big stone house that's beautiful, I once knew who built that thing, but they didn't stay there long. That should be preserved. That's quite a house. Old man Tudor, that owned Magic City Laundry there, his sister, lived next door to me, and he couldn't read or write. And he �owned the ice plant and the laundry and everything; he could count money, but he came up from Franklin County I think, and never went past the 2nd or 3rd grade. And his sister was educated and then one of his brothers lived there too, in that house. CH: This has been so interesting. You know what I'm going to ask because I know; I think the group that's doing this would probably like to come back to you with more questions. Would that be ok? JA: Yeah. CH: That would be great because I think that you're just a wealth of information. It would be just.... JA: Like I said, I was around the area, and at that time, you stayed in the area. CH: Uh-huh. Absolutely, you didn't move around, except it sounds like you moved around. JA: Well, that was later on, though, and Graybar it's now at 12th Street, the branch here. CH: That's terrific. Would you mind if I took a picture? Just a quick photo because they've asked us to. Just take photos of everyone that we can. JA: I volunteer down at the History Museum quite a bit, just on the desk. Of course, I know George Kegley really well, everybody does. George worked for my dad for 30 years, I guess. There's Helen Chewning who is Judge Fitzpatrick's wife. She worked for the newspaper back in the early '40's. CH: That's terrific. It's interesting how many people; I have a neighbor whose husband works for the paper now. I think he's in the production end of it, though. But this has been just so helpful, really, and we're really glad that you came in. JA: The little girl I was talking to said she's never been to the Memorabilia Room at Jefferson, and I told her to give me a call some time and I'll take you down there and open it up for you. CH: I think that's great. You know, I think there's probably all sorts of things like that around, and I think this is a sort of concerted effort to try and....... JA: Well, that's where we've got the good pictures because every high school had a photographer assigned and he had a good camera. As a matter of fact, the one from the class of '46, Simms that just died, he was the photographer for the class of '46 and he furnished me with a lot of pictures and I just wonder what his wife's going to do with all of those pictures. She was in my class in '47. Her name is Virginia. I'll call and ask her. CH: That would be great to know because I know they're really working on building up the Virginia Room down at the library and I think they're really.... JA: The Virginia Room needs about three times the size cause it's a real asset to the city. I love going down there and just looking around. CH: Well, I've only been here two years, and my husband is really into history. And until I did, I didn't know about it; I just didn't know about it. JA: Is your husband involved with Civil War history? CH: A little bit, yep. JA: He ought to come to our Civil War roundtable. We have probably 150 members and we have speakers every month and it's Friendship Manor Recreation Building, and we average 60 to 100 people attending. And Dr. Robertson, Bud, he talks to us at least every other year. And, as a matter of fact, I'm going to one of his classes up in Staunton next month. He has a week-long thing that I've been going to for some time. But if he likes history......Incidentally, I guess it was the Morning Show today, some little town in Pennsylvania, and the guy asked what's this town famous for, and the guy answered, "We had a general in the Civil War." And the guy asked "What was his name?" and he said "Anthony Wayne, or something". That was Revolutionary War. He didn't know it and she didn't either so it didn't make any difference. CH: How did you get so interested in the Civil War? JA: Well, um, I guess I've been interested in it forever. My dad was quite good at history and so I guess I got it from him, but he wasn't too much into the Civil War, as a matter of fact, when I got in the Sons of Union Veterans, I found out my ancestors fought for the North, which is not too good, you know. But, �and by the way, that guy just died, who was heading it up. I don't know what they're going to do now. I didn't attend that one too regularly, but I sent them money cause I think they had 15 members. Bob Eck headed the thing up, and I think he must have taught at one of the schools. His wife's a nurse out at here Brambleton Clinic, but I don't know what's going to happen to that one, but the Sons of Union Veterans of which I'm not a member of, they are more into griping than they are into history. There's always something going on that they're trying to correct. Now the guy that heads it up has done a great job of keeping a lot of the rednecks quiet, and the reenactors, I don't deal with them. They have a lot of fun, and they're history conscience as far as food and stuff like that, but as far as knowing what the Unit did or anything like that, they're not too good at it. CH: Well, it's been wonderful talking to you, Jim. So thanks so much. JA: Well, I've enjoyed talking to you and if there's anything that you want to pin down, I can, like I say, I volunteer at the History Museum, and I usually go back and get two or three directories out and try to verify where people lived and so forth, that kind of stuff. And it's very interesting. I think they go back to 1890 something. Matter of fact, I found my grandfather. He was living at the, what later on became Clover Creamery. It was a boarding house and the dairy and so forth, and there's a Knights of Pythias; it's right there at the corner of Franklin and Jefferson, and they own the building, and they're on the third floor. And I went down there to follow up on some of the stuff and it's......they're not very active, but they've got a bundh of stuff that somebody ought to get their hands on and put in the Virginia Room because all the dignitaries in Roanoke at one time were presidents or chief council or something to that degree. CH: Well, thank you very much, Jim. JA: Did you say you're over on Maiden Lane now? CH: Yeah. We really appreciate your coming by. JA: I used to know a bunch of people over there, but it's a new crowd over there now. CH: It is, but you know, it's interesting that six months after we moved in, a woman knocked on the door and they were up visiting and she had grown up in the house. So we had this long weekend with her and actually, I'm going to contact her about this. JA: One of the ladies that moved in across the street said that that was the Hyman's house and she said that some girl knocked on her door and said I used to come here and visit my grandmother and she said she showed her around and while she was digging in the back yard, what do you call it, friendship bracelets, found one from one of the boys that lived there. CH: Thank you, Jim. JA: Ok. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Beginning in September 2006, Roanoke Public Libraries interviewed more than 100 individuals for the Oral History Initiative. The Neighborhood History Project collected stories of long-time city residents from various neighborhoods in the City of Roanoke. The goal of the Oral History Initiative is to collect and preserve these valuable memories that give a unique look at the history of the people and places in Southwestern Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006 - 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Neighborhood History Interview with James Atkinson Subject The topic of the resource Raleigh Court Description An account of the resource Neighborhood History Interview with James Atkinson Interviewer: Claire Hunter Date: 20 May 2006 Location: Greater Raleigh Court Civic League Block Party Transcription prepared by: Susan Hensley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roanoke Public Libraries Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Roanoke Public Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 20 May 2006 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James Atkinson; Claire Hunter; Susan Hensley Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource All rights reserved. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AtkinsonJames